February 16, 2025 • 61 mins
Trigger Warning: Past Suicidal Ideations Discussed
After experiencing the crushing weight of societal expectations, Molly Booker found her path to self-acceptance through embracing her individuality and passions. On this episode of "On the Spectrum with Sonia," Molly, the author of "Magic in the Mess," takes us on her inspiring journey of breaking free from the chains of conformity Her story highlights the difficulties that present when one feels that they don't fit in like everybody else, and the difficulties with learning to embrace one's own uniqueness.
Throughout the episode, Molly and I reflect on our personal battles with "masking" and the intense pressure to fit into societal molds. Both of us recount the emotional toll of feeling like outsiders during our formative years, which led to struggles with self-identity and mental health. As we share our experiences, we shed light on the potentially devastating impact of a lack of self-awareness and the importance of redefining success to align with one's true passions and desires.
Molly's narrative is a powerful testament to the liberation found in pursuing what genuinely brings joy, whether it's writing, public speaking, or creative hobbies like playing guitar and drawing. She passionately invites listeners to reject societal boxes and embrace their unique brilliance, transforming internal suffering into love and acceptance. Join us for this empowering conversation, and connect with Molly at mollybooker.com to continue exploring the beauty of individuality and self-discovery.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Hello everyone and welcome to today's episode of On
the Spectrum with Sonia, wherewe talk about autism spectrum,
mental health challenges andinspirational stories to help
empower individuals, to helpthem feel connected, encouraged,
loved, supported and full ofhope, especially in a world that
(00:22):
continuously tries todisconnect us.
Today, our guest, molly Bookeroh, my goodness.
Now I want you all to thinkabout this for a second have you
ever met somebody who was akindred spirit to you?
Because in this episode we'reabout to get there.
(00:44):
Okay, we're about to get thereand it is just amazing because
she wrote a book, magic in theMess, which I can't wait to read
, because I feel like that's thecousin book to dropped in a
(01:06):
maze.
In many ways, it's the firstcousin of dropped in the maze
and it you know Molly is here todiscuss.
You know her upbringing as well,like what got her into writing,
because she wrote a book tohelp others as well.
But you know, like a lot ofpeople, and you know everyone's
story is unique, molly also wentthrough a tough time with
(01:28):
self-love, self-identity, withself-compassion, with
understanding that it was OK tobe different.
Because deep down inside her,molly probably and she will
elaborate on this she alreadyknew that she had like a fire to
her, that she will elaborate onthis.
She already knew that she had afire to her that she was not
able to express, given howsociety was, given the fact that
(01:55):
we live in a society and thisstill happens, unfortunately
where anybody different getsothered.
You know, there's still a lot,lot, and it's to a point now
where people have gone so far,right, that they're not even
using proper names anymore, tothe point like, for example, the
(02:18):
word autism.
People are not even saying thefull word anymore.
People are not even saying thefull word anymore, which is a
travesty Because somebody on thespectrum.
I want that word to be used,because that's how we get rid of
stigma, the more we use a word.
So, but here, to discuss allthis and more, let's please
(02:39):
welcome Molly Booker.
Yes, molly, how are you doing?
Speaker 2 (02:49):
I'm great.
I Thank you for having me.
I feel like we've been in theconversation for one minute and
already our sleeves are rolledup.
I don't even have sleeves onthis morning, but ready to go?
Yes, roll up, I'm fired up totalk about this.
I'm fired up to talk about this.
What you said already, you know, deeply resonates with me
growing up in a way that Ididn't.
(03:10):
I didn't fit in with mainstreamand I've kind of felt this way
my whole life.
You know the game, life thegame.
You know that here's this gameof life and I feel like I'm kind
of living in this board game.
But I must not have gotten thedirections, because I don't
understand how this game isbeing played, because it doesn't
(03:32):
seem this is not fun for me.
And growing up I really, reallystruggled with that.
And you know what's interestingis I didn't do it the way
everyone else was doing it and Iconstantly felt like I'm not
fitting in here, I don't belong,and I felt that way with number
(03:53):
one right out of the gate how Ilike to dress.
And so I had two older brothersgrowing up, uh, two brothers,
one older, one younger, and Ilike their clothes.
They had pockets and theyallowed you to like run around,
um, but the clothes that youknow that I was given as a girl
like was super tight and nopockets, so made it difficult to
(04:16):
do what I wanted to do.
So already very early on, I wasgetting feedback of, like
you're not, you're not dressingthe right way, Um, and so, very
quickly, I took that narrativeinto.
You know, at first it was like,well, what's wrong with the way
I want to do it?
But very quickly it was like,well, I must be doing it wrong.
(04:36):
And so that story led to youknow, I don't dress correctly, I
didn't want to kiss boys in thefifth and sixth grade.
And then it was like, well,what's wrong with you?
You must be prude.
And then, very quickly, it waslike, yes, I made this something
wrong about myself.
I, I really loved to read, Ilove to study.
(04:59):
And then again that was like,well, what's wrong with you?
You're a nerd, you're a loser,you're a dork, all these things.
So, you know, I took thisfeedback of I'm not doing it the
way everybody else is doing itas, um, like I'm a gender
failure, I'm not attractive, Ican't seem to do it the way
(05:19):
everybody else wants to do it,I'm a nerd, I'm a loser.
And I took all of that to meanthere must be something deeply,
profoundly wrong with me.
And so what the truth was isyes, I am not aligning the way
that the majority are.
Here's society's standard andsociety's directions go this way
(05:42):
.
Well, that didn't work for me.
So I assumed that it must besomething wrong with me.
And that assumption led toself-hatred.
It led to depression.
It led to 23 years in asuicidal depression.
But I, you know, it's like,well, there's something wrong
(06:03):
here, that something must be me.
It has taken me a lifetime, ithas taken me 49 years to realize
there was never anything wrongwith me.
That path didn't fit, you know,like I don't.
I don't fit in with that it.
There's nothing wrong with myattractability.
(06:25):
You know, there's nothing wrongwith the way that I wear
clothes.
It just turns out I'm notstraight, I'm gay.
It took me 47 years to realizethat, because I was so enmeshed
of doing it the way that I wastold to do it.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
And you know.
So it's just seemed to me likeas if you know, like, so you
kind of knew that you were notlike the people you were around,
but it was like you didn'tunderstand at the time, you
weren't able to connect the dots, like, okay, I'm not like you
guys, but I'm getting treated inthis way, so what?
So, like, what was school likefor you, like, did you have any
(07:09):
friends growing up?
Did you have like any kind ofsupport system?
And I know you said you feltvery.
You know, you had a moment, aperiod in your life where you
felt suicidal.
So like, what was, what wasthat like for you All?
School, family, all that?
Speaker 2 (07:26):
You know I, knowing what I know now and looking back
, I can see that you know,society has these boxes and
these labels in the way that wecan understand people and the
way that we relate.
And when I was growing up,there were certain boxes and I
(07:46):
did my very best to try to fitinside those boxes because I
wanted to belong, I wanted to bea good kid, I wanted to fit in,
and so I tried to force myselfto do that, the best that I knew
how to do, which was to dressthe way that other girls were
being were dressed.
It was to fit into thisheteronormative path, it was to
(08:12):
not make waves, it was to do asI was told, to not question
authority.
And so I tried to cram myselfinto these boxes.
And before I really knew whatthat boxes and before I really
knew what that you know, beforethat really started, life was
great.
Elementary school was awesomefor me because kids just were
(08:38):
kids, you know.
I could wear whatever I wantedto wear.
We weren't.
You know, there wasn't who'sdating who and who loves who and
who has a crush on who.
Kind of before all of that, Icould just be my authentic self
and it was celebrated.
I was very athletic, I wasgreat at soccer, I had great
friends, it was cool to know howto read and to love books.
You know, when all that stuffwas cool, I was crushing it.
(09:00):
I had sleepovers, I had friends, I felt like I belonged was
crushing it, I had sleepovers, Ihad friends, I felt like I
belonged.
And as soon as those boxesstarted to get more rigid in
adolescence, I started to reallystruggle because those box just
didn't fit for me.
Um and so, like fifth, sixthgrade, when there started to be
boy girl parties and going outwith boys and kissing boys, I
(09:23):
started to not fit in as well.
And um, and it was justbaffling because I didn't have
language or I didn't reallyunderstand of like, hey, my life
was going great and now it'snot going great anymore.
The language I have now is youknow, I'm not straight, but I
tried to fit myself into thisstraight box my whole life.
(09:45):
And I think the message thatI'm super passionate about is,
you know, as I think whathappens is is when we find
ourselves thinking differently,showing up differently,
expressing ourselves differently.
So often we get the message isthere something wrong with you?
And no, there is nothing wrongwith that individual.
(10:09):
It's that we don't fit intothese boxes that, you know,
people want us to fit into, ofwhether it's sexuality, whether
it's neurotypical orneurodivergent or mental illness
, whatever these boxes are.
I think when we try to jampeople into those kind of labels
(10:32):
, what we end up doing is really, you know, minimizing and
pathologizing and makingsomething wrong with the
individual, rather than there'ssomething wrong with these boxes
that just aren't fitting thespectrum that we tend to have.
And so it took me a really longtime to realize that, and I
(10:56):
thought that there was somethingwrong with me, and so that was
like well, if I'm the problemlike I can't, I can't go get a
new version of me.
So in my thinking, it was likewell, if I'm the problem like I
can't, I can't go get a newversion of me.
So in my thinking, it was likewell, I just need to eliminate
myself.
Then, if I'm the thing thatdoesn't work or fit in here, um,
and so that was.
(11:17):
You know, I felt very suicidalfrom 16 to 35, without knowing
anything or how to talk aboutany of that.
Now what I'm realizing is islike oh, I, you know, there are
other ways of doing this.
There was never anything wrongwith me.
But what that looked like in myexperience of trying to fit
(11:40):
myself into, you know, the waythat I was being told to do it,
was when I hit junior high.
Suddenly I had no friends, Ihad no one to sit with at lunch.
I, you know, I, my self-talkwas horrendous, like what's
wrong with you, how come I can'tget a boyfriend, you know, and
it was really confusing of likeI don't want a boyfriend and
(12:04):
then also I can't get one.
So there must be, it must bebecause I'm ugly and all of that
of.
There must be something wrongwith me.
You know, it must be.
I'm not lovable, I'm not smart,I'm not attractive.
And I just lived in that storyof myself for several decades
which felt like I don't have anyfriends, I'm not fitting in, I
(12:28):
don't belong.
Where am I contributing?
And it wasn't until, you know,I started really getting curious
about.
Wait a second, who am I?
When I'm not trying to be allthese things to all people, when
I'm not trying to fit in, whenI'm not trying to be all these
things to all people, when I'mnot trying to fit in, when I'm
not trying to please otherpeople.
What does that even look like?
(12:49):
That's when I started to getfreedom from the depression,
from the suicidal ideation.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
So when you were trying to fit in, it was that
you know.
So you were just trying to playit off like everyone else,
right, you were just trying tobe like okay, you know what I'm
going to date.
I'm going to, you know, haveI'm going to do what I see all
my peers doing going out.
I'm going to kind of mimic whatthey're doing in every.
(13:19):
It's kind of like how, whenthey talk about with
neurodivergence, right, thatterm, masking right, yeah, kind
of like that, where it's likeyou are trying to acclimate to
your society, you are trying to,like you, learn some rules of
social convention.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:37):
That you try to emulate.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
Yeah, I would say, you know, masking very much.
It's like I wanted to fitmyself into society standards,
like I wanted to be the good kid.
I wanted to do it right.
I wanted to, um, be a successin the way that I knew that to
be, which, at that time, youknow, growing up it was like
(13:59):
have a really good job, bemarried to a man, have kids,
have a home, and so the morethat I tried to do that
definition of success, um, Icontorted myself so much that I,
like I, couldn't even seemyself.
I I had no idea who I was.
(14:21):
I was so, um, I had no idea whoI was.
I was so, um, like I, I wasfollowing that so blindly that I
I didn't even have any idea ofwho I was until in my forties,
which is astounding.
To wake up and realize, like,what?
How did I not know I was gay,is the question that has been
(14:44):
plaguing me.
How did I not know this?
And I didn't know it because Iwas more interested in fitting
in, I was more interested indoing it right than I was in
really understanding whatresonates with me.
I wasn't asking, well, whatwould work for me.
I was asking how can I forcemyself in doing it the way that
(15:09):
works for you?
Speaker 1 (15:11):
And when you were masking and just trying to
contort yourself, what?
What were people's reactions toyou?
Do you feel like there was anybreakthrough with people or do
because I know you discussedthat you had no one to sit with
in junior high when it came tolunchtime and you know the
cafeteria can be a very lonelyplace, especially if you are
(15:36):
outcasted right or rejected orothered right way.
Shape or form.
The cafeteria can be basicallyearth's definition of living
hell.
Um, what so like did you?
I mean, was there anybody whowhom you know you were able to
try to connect with at that time, or was it kind of like you
just kind of stayed in your ownon your?
Speaker 2 (15:57):
own kind of earth's definition of living hell.
Speaker 1 (16:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
Like the cafeteria in junior high was like as bad as
I could ever imagine it.
It was a living hell.
Thank you for saying that.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
It is definition of living hell.
Um, it really was like I.
Living hell, oh my God.
You know it was horrible.
I used to.
You know the days that I wasable, because I was under
restriction at school, sixth andseventh grade, acting out and
all and well.
That's a really long story, but, like what, what led up to that
(16:39):
?
But you know the days that Iwas able to start eating in the
cafeteria again.
It was just.
I used to miss when I had toeat in the resource room because
it was just.
It was like a zoo.
Okay, with all.
For all practical purposes.
It was like a zoo with wildanimals getting on each other,
okay.
And if you were the prey, ohyou best believe.
(17:02):
It's like being a prey in apuddle full of alligators or
crocodiles.
You know they were coming foryou and those things can swim.
They can swim fast.
Speaker 2 (17:15):
Yeah, so I've heard this in my journey.
Outer experience is areflection of inner reality, and
so my inner reality in juniorhigh was there is something so
profoundly wrong with me I can't.
(17:37):
I can't wear clothes the waythat I feel like I'm supposed to
.
What is wrong with me?
You know, I don't want to go toboy girl parties.
I don't want to kiss boys.
What is wrong with me?
I'm not happy Like I am in somuch pain when I wake up in the
(17:58):
morning.
What is wrong with me?
I?
can't sleep at night.
I feel this pain that I don'tfit in.
What is wrong with me?
I don't want to do what myfamily wants to do.
I don't like going skiing.
They love it so much.
What is wrong with me?
I just want to go to thelibrary and hide out.
(18:21):
I would rather go at lunch andsit and talk to the librarians
than eat in this zoo.
Like what is wrong with me?
That was my inner reality ofwhat is so atrociously wrong
with me.
So that is what was going on inmy mind.
(18:43):
Like I must be stupid.
I must not even know the basicthings like how to be happy.
I don't know how to wearclothes, I don't know how to fit
in.
Like I am missing on everyfacet of life here.
That's what I was walkingaround with.
(19:05):
That was my inner reality.
And so that's what became myouter reality.
Like nobody likes me.
Like I convinced myself thatnobody likes me.
I don't have friends, I can'tfit in, I can't find my people.
And growing up in the 80s youknow, I was in school in the 80s
(19:26):
and the 90s you didn't talkabout your feelings, you didn't
talk about emotions, it was justsuck it up, be tough, fit in,
get along, you know, and notdoing this right, remove
yourself, pull yourself together, then come back.
So this nightmare that I wasgoing through, it's like Molly,
(19:50):
suck it up Like there's nocrying here.
So I was doing my very bestevery single day to suck it up
that living hell called thecafeteria, like I would go walk
through.
I had nowhere to sit, I mean,and it's like I not that I could
(20:11):
even eat food.
My body, my nervous system wasin fight or flight all the time,
so I basically would go through, I do a few laps.
I have nowhere to sit, I'm noteven hungry.
I'd throw my lunch away andthen I'd walk out feeling like I
don't fit in in the world.
(20:34):
And that's the worst pain thatI've ever experienced.
That is at the heart ofsuicidal ideation I don't belong
.
And then I would, you know,walk the halls, I'd go to the
library and so, like that is theliving hell.
And I think there's so manypeople.
(20:54):
I think what's so importantabout your podcast?
I'm not alone.
There are are so many, many,many, many people that feel that
way, like I don't.
There must be something wrongwith me.
You know, like I don't, mybrain doesn't work the way other
people's brain works, or Idon't look the way that other
(21:16):
people look, or I don't thinkthat way.
I mean, there are so many of usfeeling that way and the
profound misunderstanding is isthat there's something wrong
with you?
There's not, but when you buyinto that and when you try to
fit in to something that doesn'tresonate with you, that's not
authentic.
(21:36):
When we try to do it mainstreamor we try to mask, when we try
to mask to fit in with others,to make other people comfortable
, it is like a soul level injuryand that leads to, you know,
depression symptoms, it leads tophysical pain and it leads to
(21:59):
living in that kind of hell.
Speaker 1 (22:01):
And it leads to living in that kind of hell.
Yes, and you know it's so easy,you know, to get caught up in
the idea that, okay, well, sinceyou know nobody likes me, you
know I'm getting rejected, I'mfeeling othered, I'm feeling
alienated.
You know what, I'm going tohate myself too, you know, and
it's really easy to just reallyinternalize all those messages
(22:23):
that you're receiving from theoutside world and be like, okay,
well, okay, maybe I am a pieceof, or you know they hate me,
maybe.
Okay, well, there is somethingwrong with me, or maybe I'm, you
know, you know not belonging,or you know, I can't, you know,
maybe I'm just an alien orsomething.
You know, like those messages,it's really really easy to soak
(22:45):
them in.
So when did you first thenrealize that?
You like, when did you get yourfirst ideation?
And you know, I know you saidat 16, it started, but when,
like when did it start?
Coming on to that point whereit's like, okay, no, elementary
(23:06):
school was through sixth gradejunior high was seventh, eighth
and ninth.
Speaker 2 (23:25):
So, that summer between sixth and seventh, which
was the transition betweenelementary school and junior
high.
Over that summer, you know, mythinking got very like obsessive
and it just like obsessive andit just like I was really
perseverating on who am I, wheredo I fit, and then, you know,
(23:46):
first questioning it but thenvery quickly going into a spiral
of like I'm ugly, I'm not smart, and you know, that is what I
convince myself of and that isthe reality that I live from.
And what's interesting to me is, again, outer experience is a
(24:06):
reflection of inner reality andI've just held that backwards my
whole life.
I thought what I'm experiencingoutside is reflective of who I
am.
So I was looking outside andseeing wait a second, I don't
have any friends, I don't seemto fit in.
That must be evidence that I'mnot worthy or I'm not good.
(24:27):
And the piece that was justbackwards is like I convinced
myself of that and then Iprojected that outwards.
So it occurred to me and Iexperienced it as I don't have
friends, I don't belong, I'm notfitting in with anybody, and it
wasn't until, you know, thatnarrative started to change
(24:49):
about how I felt about myself.
As soon as that began to change,of working on these limiting
and beliefs about myself andprofound misunderstandings about
myself.
As soon as my own thinkingchanged, my experience in the
world changed All of a suddenit's like, oh my gosh, I have
great friends.
Weird how that.
(25:11):
It really starts with how weare viewing ourself, how we're
talking about ourselves, how ourown thoughts about self, our
self-love.
I know it feels like it shouldbe the other way, but in my
experience that is right.
There is the key to belongingIsn't how other people are, you
(25:33):
know, relating to me, but how Irelate to self is the key point
to having that experience ofbelonging.
So for me you know I wasalready questioning that in
seventh you know, seventh grade,eighth grade, ninth grade I
really thought high school wasgoing to be different.
I just was like I haven't heardanybody say that middle school
(25:54):
is awesome.
Everyone I've heard says thissucks.
You know you're going throughpuberty.
It's a rapid time of change.
You know your body is doing allkinds of wacky things.
You know acne and all of it,right.
So high school maybe you knowI'll have figured it out.
(26:17):
And my older brother was killedin a car accident six months
into starting high school and Ifelt really responsible.
And so at that point I began tofeel very suicidal of like you
know, there's just I makeeverything worse, you know, was
the story that I started tellingmyself.
(26:37):
So that's where the suicidalideation began.
You know, it wasn't just like Idon't fit in, but I really felt
like I just am makingeverything worse, like I'm the
thorn in people's side, I'm aburden, you know.
And that's the other piece ofsuicidal ideation is like I
don't belong, you know, and it'slike this feeling like I don't
(26:59):
belong and this misunderstandingthat I'm a burden or I
contribute negatively, and so itreally just spiraled from there
and I can only imagine howheavy those feelings must have
(27:45):
been to feel that you areresponsible.
You know, even though, lookingback, you know, I'm pretty sure
maybe you look at thisdifferently now, but you know at
that time what made you feellike that was a burden you had
to bear you know this is it'sinteresting when you zoom way
out is my older brother, Ben,was wild child, like authentic
self-expression.
He did not fit in and he didn'ttry to.
That was the difference.
(28:05):
He didn't try to, he was hisown person.
He questioned every single rule.
He pushed back on everythingand I was the opposite.
It's like nope, I'm going toagree with everybody, I'm going
to be the good kid.
He was the bad kid, I was thegood kid.
And so my brother really pushedmy buttons all the time.
I'm like I can't stand that heis living out loud when I feel
(28:29):
like I need to hide my authenticself.
It really pushed my buttons andso I went along with it.
You know, I just my whole lifelike well, I'm going to be the
good kid, I'll do it the way youwant me to.
I'll shrink myself to make youcomfortable.
And he didn't do that.
He, he expanded.
(28:50):
You know he was a bigpersonality and he struggled a
lot too.
He was diabetic and and reallystruggled to have his blood
sugars under control and then hegot very into drugs and alcohol
.
So you know, there was a bigchaos, you know, and a big
energy about him and I neversaid anything.
But it was in January of I wasin 10th grade, he was in 12th
(29:17):
grade and his blood sugars wereout of control.
And for the first time I spokeup, you know, and he had, he had
dented his truck and he, youknow, told me that I needed to
go help him get it fixed.
And like something just snappedin me and I'd had enough.
And I I told him no, it was thefirst time I've ever said no.
(29:38):
I was like no, you know, I'mnot doing this.
And I really voiced years andyears and years of frustration.
I voiced that I thought, youknow, our family revolves around
you.
You know, I feel invisible inthis family.
We're always doing things foryou.
I feel like you're selfish.
All of that Right.
And I just spewed it all outand I, and then, you know, I
(30:03):
just slammed the door in hisface and so that whole fight
started with him asking me toget his, take his truck, to put
it in the shop, to get it fixed.
He had dented the front end ofit.
Well, you know, I woke up pissedthe next morning.
I wouldn't talk to him and hedied that day in that truck, and
so in my mind, you know like Ileft him with words of hatred.
(30:27):
You know like I hate you is thelast words I said to him.
And I also said, no, I won'ttake you to get your truck fixed
.
And so that day he was drivingin that truck and so in my 16
year old brain, you know, I feltresponsible.
Like if I had just said yes, ifI would have just taken you to
get your truck fixed, youwouldn't have been driving, your
(30:48):
truck would have been in theshop.
Um, so you know, I felt veryresponsible for that and it also
collapsed something in my 16year old brain.
It's not okay to have aboundary, it's not okay to say
no, it's not okay to voice yourupset, your discontent, it's not
okay to speak up.
(31:09):
And so I didn't.
That was the end of that.
I didn't ever say no to anybody, I didn't object, which really,
you know, led to masking andliving in a way that felt like
it would make everybody elsecomfortable.
Speaker 1 (31:28):
And it seems like it was just a big burden to hold
for all these years and nothaving boundaries and not saying
no to people and not being ableto have some like assertion
(31:51):
self, you know, like, have someassertiveness, you know.
I can only imagine how thatalso weighed on you too.
Speaker 2 (32:00):
Yeah, it did, and it made it so like I looked
successful.
I have three master's degrees,I have, you know, great jobs.
I got married Like I did allthe steps and all the things and
on the outside it looked like Iwas really successful, but on
the inside I didn't.
(32:21):
I didn't even begin to knowmyself.
I was so disconnected with myauthentic self.
I was what society wanted me tobe and I thought that was
successful.
The disconnect was well, why amI not happy?
Because I've been sold thisidea my whole life if you do
(32:42):
these things, you'll be happy.
Well, I did all those thingsand I was far from it.
I was suicidal, I was living ina hell.
That is what I set out tounderstand.
Why am I so unhappy?
Well, it turned out I was sounhappy because I, I didn't, I
wasn't showing up, I wasn't inmy own life, I, there was
(33:04):
nothing about me showing up.
And it took a lot of unlearning, undoing of you know, of
masking, of pretending, oftrying to fit in.
It took undoing all of that tostart to unearth me my authentic
expression, what I like to wear, what I actually think, who I
(33:25):
actually want to be friends with, who I love being around.
Um, it wasn't until then that Istarted to to enjoy anything,
to, um, enjoy my life.
It's because you know, I thinkif something's feels like it's
missing in your own life, it'sprobably you.
Speaker 1 (33:48):
Right, Right and what ?
What would you say was thatdefining moment for you to kind
of really do the work inward andbecome more introspective?
What would you say would bethat defining moment where you
were like, okay, let's work onthe inside out?
Speaker 2 (34:14):
hit suicidal crisis at 35.
I just couldn't do it anymore.
So I had a plan.
I knew how I was going to killmyself and that day I felt super
peaceful and that was curiousto me, like I haven't yet killed
myself.
So why do I feel peaceful here?
Um, you know, it was reallycurious.
And then, you know, in thatspace of peace, there was a new
thought that came in, one that Ihad never had before, and it
(34:37):
was well, what if I live my lifefor me?
You know, when I was growing up, I got told all the time, roll
with the flow.
And it was kind of like well,what if I rolled with my flow?
What is my flow even look like?
It was kind of like well, what?
Speaker 1 (34:52):
if I rolled with my flow, what?
Speaker 2 (34:52):
does my flow even look like it was new.
It had never, ever occurred tome before.
And so I set out like, huh,well, I feel like I can kill
myself anytime.
Let me be sure, this is what Ireally want to do.
And so I started to ask myself,well, what would living my life
(35:14):
look like?
What would living my life in away that I wanted to even look
like?
And it started being thingsthat seemed totally out of
character for me.
I felt compelled to journal andto write and to speak, and
these were the last things thatI thought I would be capable of
or would want to do.
Um, and then I, I, um, followingthat path, ran into a life
(35:36):
coach and, um, you know, I hiredhim to create a motivational
speech and he kept saying youknow, molly, tell me the the
good and the bad and the ugly ofMolly.
And um, it was very quick thathe kept saying like Molly, I
feel like there's somethingyou're not saying, like, what
(35:56):
are you so afraid of?
And you know, in that moment itwas kind of like I think he
knows that, I know that, heknows that, I know kind of thing
.
And um, kind of thing.
(36:18):
And um, it just came out.
You know 20, 23 years ofholding this thought internal
that I had never voiced, that Ifelt so much shame around is
that?
And it?
I just out.
It came and I said I feel likekilling myself all the time.
I'd never spoken those wordsbefore and that's what I was
afraid of.
I was afraid if anybody knewthat they would hate me as much
(36:41):
as I hated me.
Said you know what I love younow?
And in that moment my it allswitched for me.
Like wait a second.
(37:10):
I said I said the worst thingabout myself and you find that
lovable?
Huh, maybe I've had this wrong.
Maybe the things that I thoughtabout myself that were shameful
, dirty, disgusting, unlovableare actually the things that are
the best about me.
I was curious.
I didn't know if that was true,but here was one human being
(37:33):
that I didn't know, that Ididn't have a connection with
until I shared my ugliest part,what I thought was my ugliest
part.
And sharing my ugliest parthe's like you know what I love
you now, and if this could makeme lovable to one, that would be
enough.
And so it was then that I waslike wait, I think maybe I've
(37:57):
had this backwards.
And then that started thejourney of like what else do I
find disgusting about myself?
I want to like, I'm going toget curious.
And it turned out I foundeverything disgusting about
myself.
I thought the way that I thinkyou know, I thought the way that
(38:18):
I love books was disgusting.
I thought my face wasdisgusting.
I thought I was really ugly.
I thought that was a truth.
And when I started reallylooking at it, I spent a year
looking in the mirror everysingle day to just to understand
what was disgusting.
And the more that I reallyasked myself, I was like wait, I
(38:42):
don't.
It went from I find myselfdisgusting to Well, I'm not
disgusting, but I'm certainlynot attractive to well, wait a
second, I think I really like myears too.
I like my mouth too.
You know, after a year of likewell, man, I've had it really
(39:05):
wrong about myself, I actuallyfind myself really attractive,
like I'm really good looking.
Speaker 1 (39:13):
And what was it like to have this transformative
moment in you where you wereable to morph the self-talk
narrative that was at firstnegative of you.
Know what everything about meis disgusting.
You know my face, the way Ilove books, the way that, just
(39:37):
the way I think right toembracing it and truly embracing
then who you were.
What was it like to have thattransformation and that moment
of like, that transformativemoment?
Speaker 2 (39:50):
somebody see something authentic about me and
want to connect with me because, um, I had been masking, you
(40:18):
know, I had been pretending Ihad been trying to be what other
people wanted me to be, andanybody anytime I got any
positive reinforcement, it wasfor this thing, and so it made
me feel even worse about myself,like, oh, I would you know.
It's like I would compromise myauthentic self to be this
(40:38):
person and then I would getcompliments for this person
which made me, which reinforced,like this is the person they
love.
They don't love me.
So this is the dark secret thatI'm carrying love me.
So this is the dark secret thatI'm carrying is is like I, I am
not really that, and I thinkfor the first time in my life, I
had somebody look at me notthis and say I love you, and it
(41:17):
it was.
It just took one voice, onemoment, one time is all it took
for somebody to look at me andsay I love you to have enough
hope to, to believe in myself.
I mean, it just took that, thatsmall thing, um, that one small
thing, and my life has beenforever different from that one
moment.
Up until that moment, I wassuffering, and how can I get out
(41:43):
of my life.
It was like surviving andsuffering and really wanting
just my life to be over.
From that moment on, it wasn'ta path of suffering anymore, it
was a path of healing.
You know, from that moment onit wasn't about how can I kill
myself, it was about how can Iknow myself, how can I see more
(42:05):
of this?
He saw something in me andthere was like a hope and a
faith that that was in me.
It was that light that that oneperson saw in me, and so it's
been me getting to know myself.
It's been expanding that lightout and that's why like that's
(42:26):
what this book is about Magic isin the mess.
Like he saw all of that andjust saw this little bit of
light that was me in there inthis hidden rubble, and that is
the gift that I wanna give outin the world.
I want everybody to see thatyou have that in you and the
(42:48):
thing that makes you you whichis probably, you've been told
most of your life is not good isactually so brilliant, and if
we can just allow enough spacefor people to let their own
brilliance, their ownauthenticity, shine, it turns
everything around.
(43:09):
Then we're not suffering.
It turns everything around.
You know then we're notsuffering we're loving.
Speaker 1 (43:15):
You know, and I think that is such a beautiful
message to share and put out inthe world that you know what
it's okay to be you.
You know I live by this mottobe unique, be you, yeah.
(43:43):
And I am a firm believer.
And you know, what you'veshared is very relatable in many
ways, because I too grew upvery rejected and ostracized,
shunned.
It's okay if you're notAmerica's version of that beauty
or what people's society putspedestals on.
It's okay if you're not on thatpedestal, because you still
shine bright without having tobe on that pedestal.
Right, you still shineregardless.
(44:04):
There was a self-esteem bookthat I worked on with some
clients and in one of thechapters it talked about a
European crystal right and thecore of the crystal being you,
with the other stuff being justfacets.
And it didn't take away fromwho you were.
It was just the other facetsjust shine light differently.
(44:27):
But it didn't take away fromwho you were.
Speaker 2 (44:30):
I, you know, I thought for most of my life like
I want to get on this pedestal,like I want to get there so
that I'll be loved.
And what I've come to realizeis is like somebody made up that
pedestal.
That's not truth.
Somebody decided that that'swhat the pedestal looks like,
(44:51):
and so one it's like not justlike cheerleading myself to say
it's okay, you're not on thatpedestal, you have a different
pedestal.
I think the more important workis to say that somebody made
that up.
That's not the truth of things.
That's that the truth of things.
That is samba.
(45:12):
To me, that's interesting.
(45:39):
I don't want to like worshipthis one way of being.
I want to see all the differentstories.
That's like now we're talking.
That's a fun way to be in theworld right.
Speaker 1 (45:48):
Right, you froze up a little, sorry, some, for some
reason it froze on me.
You froze up a little, sorry,for some reason it froze on me.
So we have a little bit oftechnical difficulties.
Listeners, I'm so sorry, butyes, better now.
Yes, and I think you know it'strue, it is somebody making it
up.
You know what it was.
I think it was.
Also goes into that idea ofdomination and control right.
(46:08):
Domination and control rightand you know, fitting standards
right and having that pedestaland having a hierarchy right.
If we look at like evolution ofsocieties and how they evolved,
right, you always had, like therulers, you always had the
followers, you always had, youknow, different imbalances of
(46:30):
power.
Speaker 2 (46:32):
Yeah, I grew up very much like here's the pedestal.
And the pedestal is white,heterosexual, male, you know,
christian, you know, whateverwe're defining that Cisgender,
neurotypical that is thepedestal.
(46:52):
Well, it's really difficultwhen that's not who you are.
It makes you believe like, well, I'm less than because I'm not
heterosexual or I'm not male orI'm not white or I'm not upper
class.
You know, I think themisunderstanding is is well, I'm
less than because I'm not upperclass.
(47:13):
You know, I think themisunderstanding is is well, I'm
less than because I'm not thatideal.
And you know, and I torturedmyself, you know, I tortured
myself to try to be that whichis I tried to be straight.
Well, that just made me angry,mean and irritable.
That was not fun to be around.
That didn't help anybody out atall.
(47:36):
Me trying to be that didn'thelp anything but me showing up
as myself saying hey, I'm not.
That, you know, I think, reallyhas opened my eyes to um, oh my
gosh.
You know that that isn't theonly way to do it.
In fact, that's not even anyspace that I now enjoy being
(48:01):
around at all.
But I think that we can beginto see, um, that you know,
that's the way that I was toldto do it as a kid doesn't mean
that's the only way to do it, orthe right way to do it, or
anything aligned with me.
To me, the real freedom and thereal healing began to see.
(48:25):
There was nothing ever wrongwith me, ever.
The only thing that was wrongwas me believing that that's who
I needed to be.
Speaker 1 (48:40):
And there's so much power when you realize that you
know what, even if you aredifferent from the norm, owning
it, being able to realize youcan still own it.
You don't need other people'spermission to own who you are
right, you have that power todefine who you are.
Other people don't have thatpower over you, right?
(49:00):
And that's where I feel likereal magic.
This is where the real magichappens is when you realize that
it's always in your hands andit has always been in your hands
, right?
But I think it's so easy.
Like, whether you're, you know,neurodivergent, autistic, maybe
(49:20):
you face different kinds ofchallenges.
That sets you apart from otherpeople.
Whether you know somebody is oflike a different sexual
orientation, whether they are,you know, like a person like a
different sexual orientation,whether they are, you know, like
a person of color, for example,right, it's so easy, especially
if you're in a predominantlylike what.
(49:41):
Going to your point, if youwere raised in an environment
where the pedestal is you had tolive up to what was set for you
in a society where people arenot like yourself, right, then
it's so easy to be like okay,you know what's wrong with me or
why.
Right, it's so easy to get intothat mindset of okay, I know
(50:04):
I'm different, I don't fit in, Idon't belong here.
And it's so easy to turn allthat hurt inwards, right, yeah.
Speaker 2 (50:12):
Yeah.
So you know, maybe the nextstep is at least it was for me
of like, okay, I'm different, Iam different and I am going to
learn to love myself anyway,like I'm different but I will
love myself anyway.
That was the first step, and Ithink what I've come to realize
(50:35):
now is is that the differencesaren't something that I need to
learn to love.
You know, or how can I be inthe world with this difference?
You know this thing about me,but that is actually the good
part, this is the good news,this is the magic.
The things that make usdifferent are the magic.
(51:06):
Like, that is nothing to hideor manipulate or mask or change.
It's those.
That unique thing is the goldyou know, and it took me a long
time to realize that is whatmakes me so great.
You know that that differentway that I hold myself, or the
different way that I think, orthe different way that I express
myself is the beautiful thingabout me not just the thing that
(51:31):
gets in the way Like it is.
Speaker 1 (51:34):
Well, here's the thing, the things that make you
you is, what are those thingsthat make that are special,
right?
That make that are special, tomake somebody who they are?
And I believe everyone isspecial in their own way, right?
I don't believe that anybody'sabove anybody.
I don't believe that anyone'sbelow anybody.
I believe that we are allspecial in their own way, right?
I don't believe that anybody'sabove anybody.
I don't believe that anyone'sbelow anybody.
I believe that we are allspecial in our own unique ways.
(51:56):
And you know, and to share thatwith people, like you're doing
in your book, which you know,leads me to ask like what is you
know?
So when did you realize that?
Like you wanted to come outwith your story?
What got you into writing Magicin the mess?
Like, how did you pick up thatidea?
Like, okay, let me share thisnow with the world.
Speaker 2 (52:18):
It's really was everything we've been talking
about.
It's wait a second.
This definition of success isnot working for me.
I've climbed that ladder, I havedone all the things and stuff.
I've climbed that ladder, Ihave done all the things and
(52:47):
stuff.
It sucks up there.
I don't want to do that anymore.
So it's like, well, that sucks.
Let me person and I'm shy andI'm an introvert and I don't go
out much, and when I you knowthat was part of that story and
when I just listened to myself,I shock myself constantly, like
I surprise myself all the time.
Well, actually, I love writing.
I tend to express myself a lotbetter in the written word.
(53:11):
I tend to express myself a lotbetter in the written word.
I love speaking.
I love being in front of a room.
Who knew I thought I was shy mywhole life.
I actually really love publicspeaking.
I love motivational speaking.
I love talking about thesethings.
I love having hardconversations.
So it was just following.
What lights me up.
(53:31):
What do I want to do?
Well, I love writing, I lovespeaking.
You know I love sharing mystory and I'm so passionate to
help other people.
You know I don't want people tobe stuck in that prison.
That feels like you got to fityourself in this box.
I want to, you know, I want tohelp say hey, there are no boxes
(53:54):
, you be you.
Here's the things that get inthe way of all of us being
authentically ourselves.
And if you're, if you just wanthappiness at the end of the day
, if you want belonging, if youwant love, if you want
contentment, I did not find iton that path of that success
ladder.
(54:15):
I found it in knowing myself.
And I just want to say to otherpeople hey, this has made my
life really fucking awesome.
I love who I am.
I love waking up, I love mylife, I love the people that are
in my life.
I love waking up, I love mylife, I love the people that are
(54:50):
in my life.
If you want that, if it workedfor me, it can work for you.
And the path that I found it ischange your definition of
success from money, you know,power, all these things, to
knowing yourself.
Just get to know yourself.
It worked, it worked, it isworking, it has worked so great
for me, and the more that I seepeople doing that, it's like
here's all the things that I'vebeen looking for my whole life.
I have a partner that I adore.
I have a family, I havepassions.
(55:11):
You know all these things thatjust eluded me.
I couldn't find anything I waspassionate about.
I'm like I don't love anything.
I don't know what I like to do.
Oh, my gosh, I love so manythings.
I love playing guitar, I loveLegos, I love drawing, I love
writing music, I love playingoutside, I love a cold plunge, I
(55:33):
love a sauna, like it goes onand on and on.
I'm, I'm.
You know it's like I lovehanging out with myself, so that
would be my my.
The thing that I would love toshare out of this is get to know
yourself.
You're fucking awesome.
Speaker 1 (55:55):
Well, that is such like wise words of wisdom and
inspiration right here, and Idefinitely agree.
You know, I think society putsso much emphasis on what defines
success Right.
Define success right andwhether it's having certain
(56:16):
titles like MD or PhD orengineer or you know something,
finance right, like something.
Speaker 2 (56:20):
MR or MRS Right Right , right, like somehow that's
successful.
Speaker 1 (56:28):
And it's you know.
And here's's the thing successis so subjective, because what
is successful for one persondoesn't mean that it's going to
translate for the next person,right, and what is you know?
So I think that, and don't getme wrong, now, for the people
who did pursue those careerpaths and are thriving in them,
(56:50):
k kudos to you.
Okay, it's, I mean, you know,once again, we're not here to
dog anybody, right, we're hereto we celebrate all.
But at the same time, you knoweverybody, like it's kind of
like going back to that Europeancrystal example.
Right, that core of a persondoesn't get taken away if their
(57:11):
external lights, the facets of acrystal, look different.
Right, it doesn't.
Right, it goes into.
You know, everybody has theirown way of shining and being
special in this world.
So, molly, as we're wrappingthis up here, how can people
find you if they wanted to getin touch?
Speaker 2 (57:36):
mollybookercom, and it's the easiest way,
mollybookercom, you can findmagic in the mess it's out, it's
anywhere books are sold, butthe links are certainly on my
website.
Um, sub stack is where I'mspending more and more of my
time.
The links are on the website,so it's just.
You know, I love simple, I loveeasy, and it can just be as
easy as that.
(57:57):
Mollybookercom, and pleaseconnect.
There is a space on there thatwe can connect.
I would love to connect withyou.
I'd love to know who you are,I'd love to see more of your
light.
So, please, let's keep theconversation going.
I hope this is just the startand, um, you know you matter to
me.
(58:17):
I want to hear your story andso let's connect, let's talk,
let's let's have these vitalconversations.
Speaker 1 (58:24):
Yes.
And so, molly, we thank you somuch for coming on here and
sharing your love and light.
Molly, we thank you so much forcoming on here and sharing your
love and light, sharing yourstory, sharing your journey of
self-transformation, which, youknow what?
It takes?
A lot.
It takes a lot.
And for people to give contextto this, it's kind of like doing
(58:45):
a hard workout.
You know, when you do a workoutat the gym or you take up
running, right, you know ifyou're doing this and you know
you think about the work it goesinto changing your body
aesthetically.
Right, and everybody who hasdone hard workouts has gone
through a transformation, right,they know it takes discipline,
(59:05):
hard work, and it's not easy.
Going through an innertransformation.
It's like doing a workoutinside the body, okay, and it
takes a lot of discipline.
It takes a lot of persistence,courage, because here's the
thing that mind is like that big, big, heavy weight.
(59:26):
Okay, that and all thesethoughts, right.
And to work on the mind andchallenging all these thoughts,
it's like learning to lift aheavy weight when your body
internally is not used tolifting.
Right, and with time it getsstronger.
Right, because the mind in andof itself is like a muscle,
(59:49):
right, even though we all knowit's an organ in the body.
But very much it is like amuscle, right?
Even though we all know it's anorgan in the body, but very
much it's like a muscle.
So, challenging these thoughts,learning to change these
thoughts right, learning it islike strengthening yourself
internally.
And all of that you know to say, while you've done a lot of
(01:00:10):
good work, you put it out onpaper, you wrote it in a book to
help others, which I feel likeis so fascinating and I think so
many people are going tobenefit from your book.
I myself can't wait to read it.
So you know, I'm just excitedto, you know, have another add
on because I love reading.
(01:00:31):
So, yes, I cannot wait to delvemore into this and continue
this conversation.
Speaker 2 (01:00:37):
Yeah, let's continue it, let's keep going.
Speaker 1 (01:00:40):
All right.
Well, thank you very much,audience, if you've enjoyed what
you heard today and pleaseremember, rate review, subscribe
to On the Spectrum with Sonia,share it with your family, share
it with sonia, um.
Share it with your family,share it with your friends,
share it with loved ones, um anduh, looking forward to bringing
you more content, so stay tuned.
(01:01:03):
Thank you for listening today.
Hello everyone and welcome to today's episode of On
the Spectrum with Sonia, wherewe talk about autism spectrum,
mental health challenges andinspirational stories to help
empower individuals, to helpthem feel connected, encouraged,
loved, supported and full ofhope, especially in a world that
(00:22):
continuously tries todisconnect us.
Today, our guest, molly Bookeroh, my goodness.
Now I want you all to thinkabout this for a second have you
ever met somebody who was akindred spirit to you?
Because in this episode we'reabout to get there.
(00:44):
Okay, we're about to get thereand it is just amazing because
she wrote a book, magic in theMess, which I can't wait to read
, because I feel like that's thecousin book to dropped in a
(01:06):
maze.
In many ways, it's the firstcousin of dropped in the maze
and it you know Molly is here todiscuss.
You know her upbringing as well,like what got her into writing,
because she wrote a book tohelp others as well.
But you know, like a lot ofpeople, and you know everyone's
story is unique, molly also wentthrough a tough time with
(01:28):
self-love, self-identity, withself-compassion, with
understanding that it was OK tobe different.
Because deep down inside her,molly probably and she will
elaborate on this she alreadyknew that she had like a fire to
her, that she will elaborate onthis.
She already knew that she had afire to her that she was not
able to express, given howsociety was, given the fact that
(01:55):
we live in a society and thisstill happens, unfortunately
where anybody different getsothered.
You know, there's still a lot,lot, and it's to a point now
where people have gone so far,right, that they're not even
using proper names anymore, tothe point like, for example, the
(02:18):
word autism.
People are not even saying thefull word anymore.
People are not even saying thefull word anymore, which is a
travesty Because somebody on thespectrum.
I want that word to be used,because that's how we get rid of
stigma, the more we use a word.
So, but here, to discuss allthis and more, let's please
(02:39):
welcome Molly Booker.
Yes, molly, how are you doing?
Speaker 2 (02:49):
I'm great.
I Thank you for having me.
I feel like we've been in theconversation for one minute and
already our sleeves are rolledup.
I don't even have sleeves onthis morning, but ready to go?
Yes, roll up, I'm fired up totalk about this.
I'm fired up to talk about this.
What you said already, you know, deeply resonates with me
growing up in a way that Ididn't.
(03:10):
I didn't fit in with mainstreamand I've kind of felt this way
my whole life.
You know the game, life thegame.
You know that here's this gameof life and I feel like I'm kind
of living in this board game.
But I must not have gotten thedirections, because I don't
understand how this game isbeing played, because it doesn't
(03:32):
seem this is not fun for me.
And growing up I really, reallystruggled with that.
And you know what's interestingis I didn't do it the way
everyone else was doing it and Iconstantly felt like I'm not
fitting in here, I don't belong,and I felt that way with number
(03:53):
one right out of the gate how Ilike to dress.
And so I had two older brothersgrowing up, uh, two brothers,
one older, one younger, and Ilike their clothes.
They had pockets and theyallowed you to like run around,
um, but the clothes that youknow that I was given as a girl
like was super tight and nopockets, so made it difficult to
(04:16):
do what I wanted to do.
So already very early on, I wasgetting feedback of, like
you're not, you're not dressingthe right way, Um, and so, very
quickly, I took that narrativeinto.
You know, at first it was like,well, what's wrong with the way
I want to do it?
But very quickly it was like,well, I must be doing it wrong.
(04:36):
And so that story led to youknow, I don't dress correctly, I
didn't want to kiss boys in thefifth and sixth grade.
And then it was like, well,what's wrong with you?
You must be prude.
And then, very quickly, it waslike, yes, I made this something
wrong about myself.
I, I really loved to read, Ilove to study.
(04:59):
And then again that was like,well, what's wrong with you?
You're a nerd, you're a loser,you're a dork, all these things.
So, you know, I took thisfeedback of I'm not doing it the
way everybody else is doing itas, um, like I'm a gender
failure, I'm not attractive, Ican't seem to do it the way
(05:19):
everybody else wants to do it,I'm a nerd, I'm a loser.
And I took all of that to meanthere must be something deeply,
profoundly wrong with me.
And so what the truth was isyes, I am not aligning the way
that the majority are.
Here's society's standard andsociety's directions go this way
(05:42):
.
Well, that didn't work for me.
So I assumed that it must besomething wrong with me.
And that assumption led toself-hatred.
It led to depression.
It led to 23 years in asuicidal depression.
But I, you know, it's like,well, there's something wrong
(06:03):
here, that something must be me.
It has taken me a lifetime, ithas taken me 49 years to realize
there was never anything wrongwith me.
That path didn't fit, you know,like I don't.
I don't fit in with that it.
There's nothing wrong with myattractability.
(06:25):
You know, there's nothing wrongwith the way that I wear
clothes.
It just turns out I'm notstraight, I'm gay.
It took me 47 years to realizethat, because I was so enmeshed
of doing it the way that I wastold to do it.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
And you know.
So it's just seemed to me likeas if you know, like, so you
kind of knew that you were notlike the people you were around,
but it was like you didn'tunderstand at the time, you
weren't able to connect the dots, like, okay, I'm not like you
guys, but I'm getting treated inthis way, so what?
So, like, what was school likefor you, like, did you have any
(07:09):
friends growing up?
Did you have like any kind ofsupport system?
And I know you said you feltvery.
You know, you had a moment, aperiod in your life where you
felt suicidal.
So like, what was, what wasthat like for you All?
School, family, all that?
Speaker 2 (07:26):
You know I, knowing what I know now and looking back
, I can see that you know,society has these boxes and
these labels in the way that wecan understand people and the
way that we relate.
And when I was growing up,there were certain boxes and I
(07:46):
did my very best to try to fitinside those boxes because I
wanted to belong, I wanted to bea good kid, I wanted to fit in,
and so I tried to force myselfto do that, the best that I knew
how to do, which was to dressthe way that other girls were
being were dressed.
It was to fit into thisheteronormative path, it was to
(08:12):
not make waves, it was to do asI was told, to not question
authority.
And so I tried to cram myselfinto these boxes.
And before I really knew whatthat boxes and before I really
knew what that you know, beforethat really started, life was
great.
Elementary school was awesomefor me because kids just were
(08:38):
kids, you know.
I could wear whatever I wantedto wear.
We weren't.
You know, there wasn't who'sdating who and who loves who and
who has a crush on who.
Kind of before all of that, Icould just be my authentic self
and it was celebrated.
I was very athletic, I wasgreat at soccer, I had great
friends, it was cool to know howto read and to love books.
You know, when all that stuffwas cool, I was crushing it.
(09:00):
I had sleepovers, I had friends, I felt like I belonged was
crushing it, I had sleepovers, Ihad friends, I felt like I
belonged.
And as soon as those boxesstarted to get more rigid in
adolescence, I started to reallystruggle because those box just
didn't fit for me.
Um and so, like fifth, sixthgrade, when there started to be
boy girl parties and going outwith boys and kissing boys, I
(09:23):
started to not fit in as well.
And um, and it was justbaffling because I didn't have
language or I didn't reallyunderstand of like, hey, my life
was going great and now it'snot going great anymore.
The language I have now is youknow, I'm not straight, but I
tried to fit myself into thisstraight box my whole life.
(09:45):
And I think the message thatI'm super passionate about is,
you know, as I think whathappens is is when we find
ourselves thinking differently,showing up differently,
expressing ourselves differently.
So often we get the message isthere something wrong with you?
And no, there is nothing wrongwith that individual.
(10:09):
It's that we don't fit intothese boxes that, you know,
people want us to fit into, ofwhether it's sexuality, whether
it's neurotypical orneurodivergent or mental illness
, whatever these boxes are.
I think when we try to jampeople into those kind of labels
(10:32):
, what we end up doing is really, you know, minimizing and
pathologizing and makingsomething wrong with the
individual, rather than there'ssomething wrong with these boxes
that just aren't fitting thespectrum that we tend to have.
And so it took me a really longtime to realize that, and I
(10:56):
thought that there was somethingwrong with me, and so that was
like well, if I'm the problemlike I can't, I can't go get a
new version of me.
So in my thinking, it was likewell, if I'm the problem like I
can't, I can't go get a newversion of me.
So in my thinking, it was likewell, I just need to eliminate
myself.
Then, if I'm the thing thatdoesn't work or fit in here, um,
and so that was.
(11:17):
You know, I felt very suicidalfrom 16 to 35, without knowing
anything or how to talk aboutany of that.
Now what I'm realizing is islike oh, I, you know, there are
other ways of doing this.
There was never anything wrongwith me.
But what that looked like in myexperience of trying to fit
(11:40):
myself into, you know, the waythat I was being told to do it,
was when I hit junior high.
Suddenly I had no friends, Ihad no one to sit with at lunch.
I, you know, I, my self-talkwas horrendous, like what's
wrong with you, how come I can'tget a boyfriend, you know, and
it was really confusing of likeI don't want a boyfriend and
(12:04):
then also I can't get one.
So there must be, it must bebecause I'm ugly and all of that
of.
There must be something wrongwith me.
You know, it must be.
I'm not lovable, I'm not smart,I'm not attractive.
And I just lived in that storyof myself for several decades
which felt like I don't have anyfriends, I'm not fitting in, I
(12:28):
don't belong.
Where am I contributing?
And it wasn't until, you know,I started really getting curious
about.
Wait a second, who am I?
When I'm not trying to be allthese things to all people, when
I'm not trying to fit in, whenI'm not trying to be all these
things to all people, when I'mnot trying to fit in, when I'm
not trying to please otherpeople.
What does that even look like?
(12:49):
That's when I started to getfreedom from the depression,
from the suicidal ideation.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
So when you were trying to fit in, it was that
you know.
So you were just trying to playit off like everyone else,
right, you were just trying tobe like okay, you know what I'm
going to date.
I'm going to, you know, haveI'm going to do what I see all
my peers doing going out.
I'm going to kind of mimic whatthey're doing in every.
(13:19):
It's kind of like how, whenthey talk about with
neurodivergence, right, thatterm, masking right, yeah, kind
of like that, where it's likeyou are trying to acclimate to
your society, you are trying to,like you, learn some rules of
social convention.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:37):
That you try to emulate.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
Yeah, I would say, you know, masking very much.
It's like I wanted to fitmyself into society standards,
like I wanted to be the good kid.
I wanted to do it right.
I wanted to, um, be a successin the way that I knew that to
be, which, at that time, youknow, growing up it was like
(13:59):
have a really good job, bemarried to a man, have kids,
have a home, and so the morethat I tried to do that
definition of success, um, Icontorted myself so much that I,
like I, couldn't even seemyself.
I I had no idea who I was.
(14:21):
I was so, um, I had no idea whoI was.
I was so, um, like I, I wasfollowing that so blindly that I
I didn't even have any idea ofwho I was until in my forties,
which is astounding.
To wake up and realize, like,what?
How did I not know I was gay,is the question that has been
(14:44):
plaguing me.
How did I not know this?
And I didn't know it because Iwas more interested in fitting
in, I was more interested indoing it right than I was in
really understanding whatresonates with me.
I wasn't asking, well, whatwould work for me.
I was asking how can I forcemyself in doing it the way that
(15:09):
works for you?
Speaker 1 (15:11):
And when you were masking and just trying to
contort yourself, what?
What were people's reactions toyou?
Do you feel like there was anybreakthrough with people or do
because I know you discussedthat you had no one to sit with
in junior high when it came tolunchtime and you know the
cafeteria can be a very lonelyplace, especially if you are
(15:36):
outcasted right or rejected orothered right way.
Shape or form.
The cafeteria can be basicallyearth's definition of living
hell.
Um, what so like did you?
I mean, was there anybody whowhom you know you were able to
try to connect with at that time, or was it kind of like you
just kind of stayed in your ownon your?
Speaker 2 (15:57):
own kind of earth's definition of living hell.
Speaker 1 (16:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
Like the cafeteria in junior high was like as bad as
I could ever imagine it.
It was a living hell.
Thank you for saying that.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
It is definition of living hell.
Um, it really was like I.
Living hell, oh my God.
You know it was horrible.
I used to.
You know the days that I wasable, because I was under
restriction at school, sixth andseventh grade, acting out and
all and well.
That's a really long story, but, like what, what led up to that
(16:39):
?
But you know the days that Iwas able to start eating in the
cafeteria again.
It was just.
I used to miss when I had toeat in the resource room because
it was just.
It was like a zoo.
Okay, with all.
For all practical purposes.
It was like a zoo with wildanimals getting on each other,
okay.
And if you were the prey, ohyou best believe.
(17:02):
It's like being a prey in apuddle full of alligators or
crocodiles.
You know they were coming foryou and those things can swim.
They can swim fast.
Speaker 2 (17:15):
Yeah, so I've heard this in my journey.
Outer experience is areflection of inner reality, and
so my inner reality in juniorhigh was there is something so
profoundly wrong with me I can't.
(17:37):
I can't wear clothes the waythat I feel like I'm supposed to
.
What is wrong with me?
You know, I don't want to go toboy girl parties.
I don't want to kiss boys.
What is wrong with me?
I'm not happy Like I am in somuch pain when I wake up in the
(17:58):
morning.
What is wrong with me?
I?
can't sleep at night.
I feel this pain that I don'tfit in.
What is wrong with me?
I don't want to do what myfamily wants to do.
I don't like going skiing.
They love it so much.
What is wrong with me?
I just want to go to thelibrary and hide out.
(18:21):
I would rather go at lunch andsit and talk to the librarians
than eat in this zoo.
Like what is wrong with me?
That was my inner reality ofwhat is so atrociously wrong
with me.
So that is what was going on inmy mind.
(18:43):
Like I must be stupid.
I must not even know the basicthings like how to be happy.
I don't know how to wearclothes, I don't know how to fit
in.
Like I am missing on everyfacet of life here.
That's what I was walkingaround with.
(19:05):
That was my inner reality.
And so that's what became myouter reality.
Like nobody likes me.
Like I convinced myself thatnobody likes me.
I don't have friends, I can'tfit in, I can't find my people.
And growing up in the 80s youknow, I was in school in the 80s
(19:26):
and the 90s you didn't talkabout your feelings, you didn't
talk about emotions, it was justsuck it up, be tough, fit in,
get along, you know, and notdoing this right, remove
yourself, pull yourself together, then come back.
So this nightmare that I wasgoing through, it's like Molly,
(19:50):
suck it up Like there's nocrying here.
So I was doing my very bestevery single day to suck it up
that living hell called thecafeteria, like I would go walk
through.
I had nowhere to sit, I mean,and it's like I not that I could
(20:11):
even eat food.
My body, my nervous system wasin fight or flight all the time,
so I basically would go through, I do a few laps.
I have nowhere to sit, I'm noteven hungry.
I'd throw my lunch away andthen I'd walk out feeling like I
don't fit in in the world.
(20:34):
And that's the worst pain thatI've ever experienced.
That is at the heart ofsuicidal ideation I don't belong
.
And then I would, you know,walk the halls, I'd go to the
library and so, like that is theliving hell.
And I think there's so manypeople.
(20:54):
I think what's so importantabout your podcast?
I'm not alone.
There are are so many, many,many, many people that feel that
way, like I don't.
There must be something wrongwith me.
You know, like I don't, mybrain doesn't work the way other
people's brain works, or Idon't look the way that other
(21:16):
people look, or I don't thinkthat way.
I mean, there are so many of usfeeling that way and the
profound misunderstanding is isthat there's something wrong
with you?
There's not, but when you buyinto that and when you try to
fit in to something that doesn'tresonate with you, that's not
authentic.
(21:36):
When we try to do it mainstreamor we try to mask, when we try
to mask to fit in with others,to make other people comfortable
, it is like a soul level injuryand that leads to, you know,
depression symptoms, it leads tophysical pain and it leads to
(21:59):
living in that kind of hell.
Speaker 1 (22:01):
And it leads to living in that kind of hell.
Yes, and you know it's so easy,you know, to get caught up in
the idea that, okay, well, sinceyou know nobody likes me, you
know I'm getting rejected, I'mfeeling othered, I'm feeling
alienated.
You know what, I'm going tohate myself too, you know, and
it's really easy to just reallyinternalize all those messages
(22:23):
that you're receiving from theoutside world and be like, okay,
well, okay, maybe I am a pieceof, or you know they hate me,
maybe.
Okay, well, there is somethingwrong with me, or maybe I'm, you
know, you know not belonging,or you know, I can't, you know,
maybe I'm just an alien orsomething.
You know, like those messages,it's really really easy to soak
(22:45):
them in.
So when did you first thenrealize that?
You like, when did you get yourfirst ideation?
And you know, I know you saidat 16, it started, but when,
like when did it start?
Coming on to that point whereit's like, okay, no, elementary
(23:06):
school was through sixth gradejunior high was seventh, eighth
and ninth.
Speaker 2 (23:25):
So, that summer between sixth and seventh, which
was the transition betweenelementary school and junior
high.
Over that summer, you know, mythinking got very like obsessive
and it just like obsessive andit just like I was really
perseverating on who am I, wheredo I fit, and then, you know,
(23:46):
first questioning it but thenvery quickly going into a spiral
of like I'm ugly, I'm not smart, and you know, that is what I
convince myself of and that isthe reality that I live from.
And what's interesting to me is, again, outer experience is a
(24:06):
reflection of inner reality andI've just held that backwards my
whole life.
I thought what I'm experiencingoutside is reflective of who I
am.
So I was looking outside andseeing wait a second, I don't
have any friends, I don't seemto fit in.
That must be evidence that I'mnot worthy or I'm not good.
(24:27):
And the piece that was justbackwards is like I convinced
myself of that and then Iprojected that outwards.
So it occurred to me and Iexperienced it as I don't have
friends, I don't belong, I'm notfitting in with anybody, and it
wasn't until, you know, thatnarrative started to change
(24:49):
about how I felt about myself.
As soon as that began to change,of working on these limiting
and beliefs about myself andprofound misunderstandings about
myself.
As soon as my own thinkingchanged, my experience in the
world changed All of a suddenit's like, oh my gosh, I have
great friends.
Weird how that.
(25:11):
It really starts with how weare viewing ourself, how we're
talking about ourselves, how ourown thoughts about self, our
self-love.
I know it feels like it shouldbe the other way, but in my
experience that is right.
There is the key to belongingIsn't how other people are, you
(25:33):
know, relating to me, but how Irelate to self is the key point
to having that experience ofbelonging.
So for me you know I wasalready questioning that in
seventh you know, seventh grade,eighth grade, ninth grade I
really thought high school wasgoing to be different.
I just was like I haven't heardanybody say that middle school
(25:54):
is awesome.
Everyone I've heard says thissucks.
You know you're going throughpuberty.
It's a rapid time of change.
You know your body is doing allkinds of wacky things.
You know acne and all of it,right.
So high school maybe you knowI'll have figured it out.
(26:17):
And my older brother was killedin a car accident six months
into starting high school and Ifelt really responsible.
And so at that point I began tofeel very suicidal of like you
know, there's just I makeeverything worse, you know, was
the story that I started tellingmyself.
(26:37):
So that's where the suicidalideation began.
You know, it wasn't just like Idon't fit in, but I really felt
like I just am makingeverything worse, like I'm the
thorn in people's side, I'm aburden, you know.
And that's the other piece ofsuicidal ideation is like I
don't belong, you know, and it'slike this feeling like I don't
(26:59):
belong and this misunderstandingthat I'm a burden or I
contribute negatively, and so itreally just spiraled from there
and I can only imagine howheavy those feelings must have
(27:45):
been to feel that you areresponsible.
You know, even though, lookingback, you know, I'm pretty sure
maybe you look at thisdifferently now, but you know at
that time what made you feellike that was a burden you had
to bear you know this is it'sinteresting when you zoom way
out is my older brother, Ben,was wild child, like authentic
self-expression.
He did not fit in and he didn'ttry to.
That was the difference.
(28:05):
He didn't try to, he was hisown person.
He questioned every single rule.
He pushed back on everythingand I was the opposite.
It's like nope, I'm going toagree with everybody, I'm going
to be the good kid.
He was the bad kid, I was thegood kid.
And so my brother really pushedmy buttons all the time.
I'm like I can't stand that heis living out loud when I feel
(28:29):
like I need to hide my authenticself.
It really pushed my buttons andso I went along with it.
You know, I just my whole lifelike well, I'm going to be the
good kid, I'll do it the way youwant me to.
I'll shrink myself to make youcomfortable.
And he didn't do that.
He, he expanded.
(28:50):
You know he was a bigpersonality and he struggled a
lot too.
He was diabetic and and reallystruggled to have his blood
sugars under control and then hegot very into drugs and alcohol
.
So you know, there was a bigchaos, you know, and a big
energy about him and I neversaid anything.
But it was in January of I wasin 10th grade, he was in 12th
(29:17):
grade and his blood sugars wereout of control.
And for the first time I spokeup, you know, and he had, he had
dented his truck and he, youknow, told me that I needed to
go help him get it fixed.
And like something just snappedin me and I'd had enough.
And I I told him no, it was thefirst time I've ever said no.
(29:38):
I was like no, you know, I'mnot doing this.
And I really voiced years andyears and years of frustration.
I voiced that I thought, youknow, our family revolves around
you.
You know, I feel invisible inthis family.
We're always doing things foryou.
I feel like you're selfish.
All of that Right.
And I just spewed it all outand I, and then, you know, I
(30:03):
just slammed the door in hisface and so that whole fight
started with him asking me toget his, take his truck, to put
it in the shop, to get it fixed.
He had dented the front end ofit.
Well, you know, I woke up pissedthe next morning.
I wouldn't talk to him and hedied that day in that truck, and
so in my mind, you know like Ileft him with words of hatred.
(30:27):
You know like I hate you is thelast words I said to him.
And I also said, no, I won'ttake you to get your truck fixed
.
And so that day he was drivingin that truck and so in my 16
year old brain, you know, I feltresponsible.
Like if I had just said yes, ifI would have just taken you to
get your truck fixed, youwouldn't have been driving, your
(30:48):
truck would have been in theshop.
Um, so you know, I felt veryresponsible for that and it also
collapsed something in my 16year old brain.
It's not okay to have aboundary, it's not okay to say
no, it's not okay to voice yourupset, your discontent, it's not
okay to speak up.
(31:09):
And so I didn't.
That was the end of that.
I didn't ever say no to anybody, I didn't object, which really,
you know, led to masking andliving in a way that felt like
it would make everybody elsecomfortable.
Speaker 1 (31:28):
And it seems like it was just a big burden to hold
for all these years and nothaving boundaries and not saying
no to people and not being ableto have some like assertion
(31:51):
self, you know, like, have someassertiveness, you know.
I can only imagine how thatalso weighed on you too.
Speaker 2 (32:00):
Yeah, it did, and it made it so like I looked
successful.
I have three master's degrees,I have, you know, great jobs.
I got married Like I did allthe steps and all the things and
on the outside it looked like Iwas really successful, but on
the inside I didn't.
(32:21):
I didn't even begin to knowmyself.
I was so disconnected with myauthentic self.
I was what society wanted me tobe and I thought that was
successful.
The disconnect was well, why amI not happy?
Because I've been sold thisidea my whole life if you do
(32:42):
these things, you'll be happy.
Well, I did all those thingsand I was far from it.
I was suicidal, I was living ina hell.
That is what I set out tounderstand.
Why am I so unhappy?
Well, it turned out I was sounhappy because I, I didn't, I
wasn't showing up, I wasn't inmy own life, I, there was
(33:04):
nothing about me showing up.
And it took a lot of unlearning, undoing of you know, of
masking, of pretending, oftrying to fit in.
It took undoing all of that tostart to unearth me my authentic
expression, what I like to wear, what I actually think, who I
(33:25):
actually want to be friends with, who I love being around.
Um, it wasn't until then that Istarted to to enjoy anything,
to, um, enjoy my life.
It's because you know, I thinkif something's feels like it's
missing in your own life, it'sprobably you.
Speaker 1 (33:48):
Right, Right and what ?
What would you say was thatdefining moment for you to kind
of really do the work inward andbecome more introspective?
What would you say would bethat defining moment where you
were like, okay, let's work onthe inside out?
Speaker 2 (34:14):
hit suicidal crisis at 35.
I just couldn't do it anymore.
So I had a plan.
I knew how I was going to killmyself and that day I felt super
peaceful and that was curiousto me, like I haven't yet killed
myself.
So why do I feel peaceful here?
Um, you know, it was reallycurious.
And then, you know, in thatspace of peace, there was a new
thought that came in, one that Ihad never had before, and it
(34:37):
was well, what if I live my lifefor me?
You know, when I was growing up, I got told all the time, roll
with the flow.
And it was kind of like well,what if I rolled with my flow?
What is my flow even look like?
It was kind of like well, what?
Speaker 1 (34:52):
if I rolled with my flow, what?
Speaker 2 (34:52):
does my flow even look like it was new.
It had never, ever occurred tome before.
And so I set out like, huh,well, I feel like I can kill
myself anytime.
Let me be sure, this is what Ireally want to do.
And so I started to ask myself,well, what would living my life
(35:14):
look like?
What would living my life in away that I wanted to even look
like?
And it started being thingsthat seemed totally out of
character for me.
I felt compelled to journal andto write and to speak, and
these were the last things thatI thought I would be capable of
or would want to do.
Um, and then I, I, um, followingthat path, ran into a life
(35:36):
coach and, um, you know, I hiredhim to create a motivational
speech and he kept saying youknow, molly, tell me the the
good and the bad and the ugly ofMolly.
And um, it was very quick thathe kept saying like Molly, I
feel like there's somethingyou're not saying, like, what
(35:56):
are you so afraid of?
And you know, in that moment itwas kind of like I think he
knows that, I know that, heknows that, I know kind of thing
.
And um, kind of thing.
(36:18):
And um, it just came out.
You know 20, 23 years ofholding this thought internal
that I had never voiced, that Ifelt so much shame around is
that?
And it?
I just out.
It came and I said I feel likekilling myself all the time.
I'd never spoken those wordsbefore and that's what I was
afraid of.
I was afraid if anybody knewthat they would hate me as much
(36:41):
as I hated me.
Said you know what I love younow?
And in that moment my it allswitched for me.
Like wait a second.
(37:10):
I said I said the worst thingabout myself and you find that
lovable?
Huh, maybe I've had this wrong.
Maybe the things that I thoughtabout myself that were shameful
, dirty, disgusting, unlovableare actually the things that are
the best about me.
I was curious.
I didn't know if that was true,but here was one human being
(37:33):
that I didn't know, that Ididn't have a connection with
until I shared my ugliest part,what I thought was my ugliest
part.
And sharing my ugliest parthe's like you know what I love
you now, and if this could makeme lovable to one, that would be
enough.
And so it was then that I waslike wait, I think maybe I've
(37:57):
had this backwards.
And then that started thejourney of like what else do I
find disgusting about myself?
I want to like, I'm going toget curious.
And it turned out I foundeverything disgusting about
myself.
I thought the way that I thinkyou know, I thought the way that
(38:18):
I love books was disgusting.
I thought my face wasdisgusting.
I thought I was really ugly.
I thought that was a truth.
And when I started reallylooking at it, I spent a year
looking in the mirror everysingle day to just to understand
what was disgusting.
And the more that I reallyasked myself, I was like wait, I
(38:42):
don't.
It went from I find myselfdisgusting to Well, I'm not
disgusting, but I'm certainlynot attractive to well, wait a
second, I think I really like myears too.
I like my mouth too.
You know, after a year of likewell, man, I've had it really
(39:05):
wrong about myself, I actuallyfind myself really attractive,
like I'm really good looking.
Speaker 1 (39:13):
And what was it like to have this transformative
moment in you where you wereable to morph the self-talk
narrative that was at firstnegative of you.
Know what everything about meis disgusting.
You know my face, the way Ilove books, the way that, just
(39:37):
the way I think right toembracing it and truly embracing
then who you were.
What was it like to have thattransformation and that moment
of like, that transformativemoment?
Speaker 2 (39:50):
somebody see something authentic about me and
want to connect with me because, um, I had been masking, you
(40:18):
know, I had been pretending Ihad been trying to be what other
people wanted me to be, andanybody anytime I got any
positive reinforcement, it wasfor this thing, and so it made
me feel even worse about myself,like, oh, I would you know.
It's like I would compromise myauthentic self to be this
(40:38):
person and then I would getcompliments for this person
which made me, which reinforced,like this is the person they
love.
They don't love me.
So this is the dark secret thatI'm carrying love me.
So this is the dark secret thatI'm carrying is is like I, I am
not really that, and I thinkfor the first time in my life, I
had somebody look at me notthis and say I love you, and it
(41:17):
it was.
It just took one voice, onemoment, one time is all it took
for somebody to look at me andsay I love you to have enough
hope to, to believe in myself.
I mean, it just took that, thatsmall thing, um, that one small
thing, and my life has beenforever different from that one
moment.
Up until that moment, I wassuffering, and how can I get out
(41:43):
of my life.
It was like surviving andsuffering and really wanting
just my life to be over.
From that moment on, it wasn'ta path of suffering anymore, it
was a path of healing.
You know, from that moment onit wasn't about how can I kill
myself, it was about how can Iknow myself, how can I see more
(42:05):
of this?
He saw something in me andthere was like a hope and a
faith that that was in me.
It was that light that that oneperson saw in me, and so it's
been me getting to know myself.
It's been expanding that lightout and that's why like that's
(42:26):
what this book is about Magic isin the mess.
Like he saw all of that andjust saw this little bit of
light that was me in there inthis hidden rubble, and that is
the gift that I wanna give outin the world.
I want everybody to see thatyou have that in you and the
(42:48):
thing that makes you you whichis probably, you've been told
most of your life is not good isactually so brilliant, and if
we can just allow enough spacefor people to let their own
brilliance, their ownauthenticity, shine, it turns
everything around.
(43:09):
Then we're not suffering.
It turns everything around.
You know then we're notsuffering we're loving.
Speaker 1 (43:15):
You know, and I think that is such a beautiful
message to share and put out inthe world that you know what
it's okay to be you.
You know I live by this mottobe unique, be you, yeah.
(43:43):
And I am a firm believer.
And you know, what you'veshared is very relatable in many
ways, because I too grew upvery rejected and ostracized,
shunned.
It's okay if you're notAmerica's version of that beauty
or what people's society putspedestals on.
It's okay if you're not on thatpedestal, because you still
shine bright without having tobe on that pedestal.
Right, you still shineregardless.
(44:04):
There was a self-esteem bookthat I worked on with some
clients and in one of thechapters it talked about a
European crystal right and thecore of the crystal being you,
with the other stuff being justfacets.
And it didn't take away fromwho you were.
It was just the other facetsjust shine light differently.
(44:27):
But it didn't take away fromwho you were.
Speaker 2 (44:30):
I, you know, I thought for most of my life like
I want to get on this pedestal,like I want to get there so
that I'll be loved.
And what I've come to realizeis is like somebody made up that
pedestal.
That's not truth.
Somebody decided that that'swhat the pedestal looks like,
(44:51):
and so one it's like not justlike cheerleading myself to say
it's okay, you're not on thatpedestal, you have a different
pedestal.
I think the more important workis to say that somebody made
that up.
That's not the truth of things.
That's that the truth of things.
That is samba.
(45:12):
To me, that's interesting.
(45:39):
I don't want to like worshipthis one way of being.
I want to see all the differentstories.
That's like now we're talking.
That's a fun way to be in theworld right.
Speaker 1 (45:48):
Right, you froze up a little, sorry, some, for some
reason it froze on me.
You froze up a little, sorry,for some reason it froze on me.
So we have a little bit oftechnical difficulties.
Listeners, I'm so sorry, butyes, better now.
Yes, and I think you know it'strue, it is somebody making it
up.
You know what it was.
I think it was.
Also goes into that idea ofdomination and control right.
(46:08):
Domination and control rightand you know, fitting standards
right and having that pedestaland having a hierarchy right.
If we look at like evolution ofsocieties and how they evolved,
right, you always had, like therulers, you always had the
followers, you always had, youknow, different imbalances of
(46:30):
power.
Speaker 2 (46:32):
Yeah, I grew up very much like here's the pedestal.
And the pedestal is white,heterosexual, male, you know,
christian, you know, whateverwe're defining that Cisgender,
neurotypical that is thepedestal.
(46:52):
Well, it's really difficultwhen that's not who you are.
It makes you believe like, well, I'm less than because I'm not
heterosexual or I'm not male orI'm not white or I'm not upper
class.
You know, I think themisunderstanding is is well, I'm
less than because I'm not upperclass.
(47:13):
You know, I think themisunderstanding is is well, I'm
less than because I'm not thatideal.
And you know, and I torturedmyself, you know, I tortured
myself to try to be that whichis I tried to be straight.
Well, that just made me angry,mean and irritable.
That was not fun to be around.
That didn't help anybody out atall.
(47:36):
Me trying to be that didn'thelp anything but me showing up
as myself saying hey, I'm not.
That, you know, I think, reallyhas opened my eyes to um, oh my
gosh.
You know that that isn't theonly way to do it.
In fact, that's not even anyspace that I now enjoy being
(48:01):
around at all.
But I think that we can beginto see, um, that you know,
that's the way that I was toldto do it as a kid doesn't mean
that's the only way to do it, orthe right way to do it, or
anything aligned with me.
To me, the real freedom and thereal healing began to see.
(48:25):
There was nothing ever wrongwith me, ever.
The only thing that was wrongwas me believing that that's who
I needed to be.
Speaker 1 (48:40):
And there's so much power when you realize that you
know what, even if you aredifferent from the norm, owning
it, being able to realize youcan still own it.
You don't need other people'spermission to own who you are
right, you have that power todefine who you are.
Other people don't have thatpower over you, right?
(49:00):
And that's where I feel likereal magic.
This is where the real magichappens is when you realize that
it's always in your hands andit has always been in your hands
, right?
But I think it's so easy.
Like, whether you're, you know,neurodivergent, autistic, maybe
(49:20):
you face different kinds ofchallenges.
That sets you apart from otherpeople.
Whether you know somebody is oflike a different sexual
orientation, whether they are,you know, like a person like a
different sexual orientation,whether they are, you know, like
a person of color, for example,right, it's so easy, especially
if you're in a predominantlylike what.
(49:41):
Going to your point, if youwere raised in an environment
where the pedestal is you had tolive up to what was set for you
in a society where people arenot like yourself, right, then
it's so easy to be like okay,you know what's wrong with me or
why.
Right, it's so easy to get intothat mindset of okay, I know
(50:04):
I'm different, I don't fit in, Idon't belong here.
And it's so easy to turn allthat hurt inwards, right, yeah.
Speaker 2 (50:12):
Yeah.
So you know, maybe the nextstep is at least it was for me
of like, okay, I'm different, Iam different and I am going to
learn to love myself anyway,like I'm different but I will
love myself anyway.
That was the first step, and Ithink what I've come to realize
(50:35):
now is is that the differencesaren't something that I need to
learn to love.
You know, or how can I be inthe world with this difference?
You know this thing about me,but that is actually the good
part, this is the good news,this is the magic.
The things that make usdifferent are the magic.
(51:06):
Like, that is nothing to hideor manipulate or mask or change.
It's those.
That unique thing is the goldyou know, and it took me a long
time to realize that is whatmakes me so great.
You know that that differentway that I hold myself, or the
different way that I think, orthe different way that I express
myself is the beautiful thingabout me not just the thing that
(51:31):
gets in the way Like it is.
Speaker 1 (51:34):
Well, here's the thing, the things that make you
you is, what are those thingsthat make that are special,
right?
That make that are special, tomake somebody who they are?
And I believe everyone isspecial in their own way, right?
I don't believe that anybody'sabove anybody.
I don't believe that anyone'sbelow anybody.
I believe that we are allspecial in their own way, right?
I don't believe that anybody'sabove anybody.
I don't believe that anyone'sbelow anybody.
I believe that we are allspecial in our own unique ways.
(51:56):
And you know, and to share thatwith people, like you're doing
in your book, which you know,leads me to ask like what is you
know?
So when did you realize that?
Like you wanted to come outwith your story?
What got you into writing Magicin the mess?
Like, how did you pick up thatidea?
Like, okay, let me share thisnow with the world.
Speaker 2 (52:18):
It's really was everything we've been talking
about.
It's wait a second.
This definition of success isnot working for me.
I've climbed that ladder, I havedone all the things and stuff.
I've climbed that ladder, Ihave done all the things and
(52:47):
stuff.
It sucks up there.
I don't want to do that anymore.
So it's like, well, that sucks.
Let me person and I'm shy andI'm an introvert and I don't go
out much, and when I you knowthat was part of that story and
when I just listened to myself,I shock myself constantly, like
I surprise myself all the time.
Well, actually, I love writing.
I tend to express myself a lotbetter in the written word.
(53:11):
I tend to express myself a lotbetter in the written word.
I love speaking.
I love being in front of a room.
Who knew I thought I was shy mywhole life.
I actually really love publicspeaking.
I love motivational speaking.
I love talking about thesethings.
I love having hardconversations.
So it was just following.
What lights me up.
(53:31):
What do I want to do?
Well, I love writing, I lovespeaking.
You know I love sharing mystory and I'm so passionate to
help other people.
You know I don't want people tobe stuck in that prison.
That feels like you got to fityourself in this box.
I want to, you know, I want tohelp say hey, there are no boxes
(53:54):
, you be you.
Here's the things that get inthe way of all of us being
authentically ourselves.
And if you're, if you just wanthappiness at the end of the day
, if you want belonging, if youwant love, if you want
contentment, I did not find iton that path of that success
ladder.
(54:15):
I found it in knowing myself.
And I just want to say to otherpeople hey, this has made my
life really fucking awesome.
I love who I am.
I love waking up, I love mylife, I love the people that are
in my life.
I love waking up, I love mylife, I love the people that are
(54:50):
in my life.
If you want that, if it workedfor me, it can work for you.
And the path that I found it ischange your definition of
success from money, you know,power, all these things, to
knowing yourself.
Just get to know yourself.
It worked, it worked, it isworking, it has worked so great
for me, and the more that I seepeople doing that, it's like
here's all the things that I'vebeen looking for my whole life.
I have a partner that I adore.
I have a family, I havepassions.
(55:11):
You know all these things thatjust eluded me.
I couldn't find anything I waspassionate about.
I'm like I don't love anything.
I don't know what I like to do.
Oh, my gosh, I love so manythings.
I love playing guitar, I loveLegos, I love drawing, I love
writing music, I love playingoutside, I love a cold plunge, I
(55:33):
love a sauna, like it goes onand on and on.
I'm, I'm.
You know it's like I lovehanging out with myself, so that
would be my my.
The thing that I would love toshare out of this is get to know
yourself.
You're fucking awesome.
Speaker 1 (55:55):
Well, that is such like wise words of wisdom and
inspiration right here, and Idefinitely agree.
You know, I think society putsso much emphasis on what defines
success Right.
Define success right andwhether it's having certain
(56:16):
titles like MD or PhD orengineer or you know something,
finance right, like something.
Speaker 2 (56:20):
MR or MRS Right Right , right, like somehow that's
successful.
Speaker 1 (56:28):
And it's you know.
And here's's the thing successis so subjective, because what
is successful for one persondoesn't mean that it's going to
translate for the next person,right, and what is you know?
So I think that, and don't getme wrong, now, for the people
who did pursue those careerpaths and are thriving in them,
(56:50):
k kudos to you.
Okay, it's, I mean, you know,once again, we're not here to
dog anybody, right, we're hereto we celebrate all.
But at the same time, you knoweverybody, like it's kind of
like going back to that Europeancrystal example.
Right, that core of a persondoesn't get taken away if their
(57:11):
external lights, the facets of acrystal, look different.
Right, it doesn't.
Right, it goes into.
You know, everybody has theirown way of shining and being
special in this world.
So, molly, as we're wrappingthis up here, how can people
find you if they wanted to getin touch?
Speaker 2 (57:36):
mollybookercom, and it's the easiest way,
mollybookercom, you can findmagic in the mess it's out, it's
anywhere books are sold, butthe links are certainly on my
website.
Um, sub stack is where I'mspending more and more of my
time.
The links are on the website,so it's just.
You know, I love simple, I loveeasy, and it can just be as
easy as that.
(57:57):
Mollybookercom, and pleaseconnect.
There is a space on there thatwe can connect.
I would love to connect withyou.
I'd love to know who you are,I'd love to see more of your
light.
So, please, let's keep theconversation going.
I hope this is just the startand, um, you know you matter to
me.
(58:17):
I want to hear your story andso let's connect, let's talk,
let's let's have these vitalconversations.
Speaker 1 (58:24):
Yes.
And so, molly, we thank you somuch for coming on here and
sharing your love and light.
Molly, we thank you so much forcoming on here and sharing your
love and light, sharing yourstory, sharing your journey of
self-transformation, which, youknow what?
It takes?
A lot.
It takes a lot.
And for people to give contextto this, it's kind of like doing
(58:45):
a hard workout.
You know, when you do a workoutat the gym or you take up
running, right, you know ifyou're doing this and you know
you think about the work it goesinto changing your body
aesthetically.
Right, and everybody who hasdone hard workouts has gone
through a transformation, right,they know it takes discipline,
(59:05):
hard work, and it's not easy.
Going through an innertransformation.
It's like doing a workoutinside the body, okay, and it
takes a lot of discipline.
It takes a lot of persistence,courage, because here's the
thing that mind is like that big, big, heavy weight.
(59:26):
Okay, that and all thesethoughts, right.
And to work on the mind andchallenging all these thoughts,
it's like learning to lift aheavy weight when your body
internally is not used tolifting.
Right, and with time it getsstronger.
Right, because the mind in andof itself is like a muscle,
(59:49):
right, even though we all knowit's an organ in the body.
But very much it is like amuscle, right?
Even though we all know it's anorgan in the body, but very
much it's like a muscle.
So, challenging these thoughts,learning to change these
thoughts right, learning it islike strengthening yourself
internally.
And all of that you know to say, while you've done a lot of
(01:00:10):
good work, you put it out onpaper, you wrote it in a book to
help others, which I feel likeis so fascinating and I think so
many people are going tobenefit from your book.
I myself can't wait to read it.
So you know, I'm just excitedto, you know, have another add
on because I love reading.
(01:00:31):
So, yes, I cannot wait to delvemore into this and continue
this conversation.
Speaker 2 (01:00:37):
Yeah, let's continue it, let's keep going.
Speaker 1 (01:00:40):
All right.
Well, thank you very much,audience, if you've enjoyed what
you heard today and pleaseremember, rate review, subscribe
to On the Spectrum with Sonia,share it with your family, share
it with sonia, um.
Share it with your family,share it with your friends,
share it with loved ones, um anduh, looking forward to bringing
you more content, so stay tuned.
(01:01:03):
Thank you for listening today.
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