January 25, 2025 • 45 mins
Tom Smith, a retired NYPD officer and current host of the Gold Shield Show, joins me on "On the Spectrum with Sonia" to discuss the often unseen intersection of law enforcement and mental health. Inspired to follow his father's footsteps and seeing the strong camaraderie and "family" formed within the community, Tom aimed to recreate that for his own life and found just that.
The conversation takes a deeper look at the intricacies of mental health in policing, emphasizing the vital role of mental health support within the justice system. We discuss different aspects of mental health within law enforcement, those in the criminal justice system, and education that both law enforcement officers and mental health professionals need to learn of each other.
Towards the end, we tackle the societal pressures on police officers, magnified by public events like the George Floyd incident. Tom and I discuss how tools like body cameras can enhance accountability and serve as training resources. We discuss the necessity of communication skills and effective strategies to manage mental health crises, advocating for ongoing collaboration between law enforcement and mental health professionals. To cap off the episode, I'm excited to announce the upcoming launch of my book, "Dropped in a Maze," at Creative Con in Chicago, and I invite you to join our journey by subscribing to the podcast across major platforms.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
Hello everyone and welcome to today's episode of On
the Spectrum with Sonia, apodcast where we discuss autism
spectrum, mental healthchallenges and anybody who's
overcome any adversity to leavepeople feeling inspired,
encouraged, full of hope, loveand connection, especially in a
(00:23):
world where we are constantlytrying to be disconnected from
one another.
Did you know that policeofficers are more likely to have
PTSD than your averagepopulation?
And did you also know who'soverrepresented in the criminal
justice system?
Are people with mental healthissues?
(00:44):
Know who's overrepresented inthe criminal justice system?
Are people with mental healthissues here to talk about
today's challenges andintersectionality between law
enforcement and mental health?
We have Tom Schilt.
He is, or Tom Smith.
Sorry, tom Smith.
What am I talking about?
Tom Smith from the Gold ShieldShow.
I love.
It's a widely popular podcast.
He's had amazing guests on hisshow and I'm so honored that
(01:08):
he's come on here today.
Tom Smith is a retired NYPD.
He joined in 1990 and servedfor 30 years, and so, without
further ado, let's just pleasewelcome Tom Smith to the show.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Hey Sonia, how are you?
Speaker 1 (01:27):
Hey, how are you doing?
Thank you so much for coming onhere today.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
Thank you very much for having me.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
So, tom, can you tell us a little bit about you?
What inspired you to go intothe police force, what you know
like?
Tell us a little bit about yourupbringing, any particular
thing that kind of sparked youand was like, oh, let me, you
know, let me go into this route.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
Well, I had a big spark in my life and that was my
dad.
He was a retired NYPD detectiveand I grew up with that.
You know he served in the 50s,the 60sies and the seventies
when the city was kind ofanother world than it is now.
So I grew up in that world andI grew up as as every little boy
(02:12):
.
You know, my dad being my heroand wanting to be like him.
Uh, I would steal his shieldoff his dresser when he got home
and chase my sisters aroundCause I the detective and it's
just everything I always wantedand what I wanted to do.
There really was no kind of 1Ain my life.
(02:34):
I was going to go down thisroute and do the very best I
could at doing it and luckily in1990, had the opportunity to do
that and was in the best policedepartment in the world for 30
years and enjoyed every minuteof it Not every minute, I
shouldn't say that.
You know, we have, we all haveour days that are bad and so
(02:56):
forth, but it was everything Ithought it would be, and even
more times, even more at times.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
So, from watching your dad be in the police force,
what was something that youknow, you saw out of it, that
you were able to observe, thatyou were like, oh wow.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
I could see myself doing this too.
The hard work that goes into itand the connection and
friendship that he had with hispartners that always resonated.
You know we would go toprecincts that he worked in, you
know, on the way to a Yankeegame or after a Yankee game, and
it was always like walking intosomeone's house.
It wasn't like a workenvironment.
It was weird just how bondedeveryone was in that room, in
that squad room or whatever itmight have been.
(03:42):
And then going to like precinctpicnics with him and outings
and seeing everyone the way theywere meant a lot to me and I
tried to do the same thing andstill do the same thing as I go
on with life and in the policedepartment.
But that was a big part of itfor me.
Speaker 1 (04:02):
So it seems like there was like a big sense of
camaraderie, apart from the workitself.
It seems like it really trulywas, even though as cliche as it
may seem, but it seemed likethey were a family.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
Oh, very much.
You know you relied on eachother.
They would come.
They would come to barbecues,they would come to weddings,
they would come to you know,whatever was going on.
It was the list of guys fromwork or girls from work and that
was at that table and it justwas the thing.
They would come down to ourhouse down the Jersey Shore, you
know, for a weekend.
You know families.
(04:35):
I still one of my dad'spartners who, tragic
unfortunately, had just passedaway last year, unfortunately
had just passed away last year Istill, to this day, stay in
touch with their family.
My sisters do, that's how, andthey worked together in the late
60s and early and mid 70s.
And we're still friends withJoe's family even today.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
That is such an amazing quality to have, you
know, an amazing thing to have,where you know people stay
connected and really truly treateach other like family and not
just people.
Speaker 2 (05:11):
You just clock in and clock out with Right, like you
actually form that connection,form that bond when you joined
(05:31):
in 1990, did you also see thatsame replica in your cohort of
people, like you saw with yourfather?
Yeah, you know, it was kind ofsomething I was expecting
because I thought it was thenorm.
So once it did happen and youget so close to the people
you're working with, and afteryour shift you'd go out, you'd
(05:52):
get something to eat, and thenwhen I got married, like I just
said, an entire table, twotables full of people I worked
with, you know, and coming tochristenings and coming to
birthdays and all that was justthe normal thing to do.
And even to this day, stayingin touch with people that I work
with I mean, my old partner isstill one of my good friends
that we talk to each other allthe time.
I just talked to him the otherday.
(06:12):
And it's just that thing, thatit's the understanding that
you're putting your life insomeone's hands and you're
hoping they come through and youcome through for them, and
that's an incredible bond thatsticks with law enforcement
officers throughout a lifetime.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
So so it seems like you know it was a very rewarding
experience for you.
Ultimately, you know it wasalso because of the kind of
connections you made.
But talk, let's talk a littlebit about the work itself.
Now, when you were in the force, does anything kind of
particularly stand out for youin terms of any cases you've
(06:54):
worked on?
Any case you've came acrossthat perhaps impacted you in
some way, shape or form?
Speaker 2 (07:01):
Oh, we could do an entire show just on that, sonia.
Oh, we could do an entire showjust on that Sonya there's,
there were so many.
You know I had the good fortuneof having a very good career
and being involved in a lot ofdifferent things, from patrol to
.
You know.
I was in a really bad shootingin 1993 with three armed guys
(07:29):
that one of our officers gotshot during it.
He survived, but it was a, youknow, big, impactful event that
happened.
That, you know, still to thisday.
Every once in a while it popsinto my head.
You know what we went throughthat day to very great cases of,
you know, being deployed toAfghanistan for three months
(07:52):
searching for a New York Timesreporter who was kidnapped by an
al Qaeda group and working witha Navy SEAL team and the CIA
and then eventually getting himout like we did.
So that was one of thosehighlights, and you know another
(08:14):
big one was stopping a schoolshooting in the school that two
of my kids were in.
Oh my gosh, you know, was mycase along my partner from the
FBI and stopping it, you know, acouple of days before it was
planned to happen, and arrestingthe individual who was the main
perpetrator in it.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
Oh my goodness, that must have hit you doubly hard
because it was at a school thatyour kids are at.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
Oh yeah, that was an interesting one and I've done,
you know, many shows just onthat case and the the part of it
of finding out that it was thatschool, which was my, you know,
our local school, and having torace against the time that we
figured the event was going tohappen or the attack was going
to happen, and getting enoughevidence and everything we
(08:59):
needed to arrest this person, ontop of thinking of you know my
kids at that school and manyother people.
you know, all my kids went tothe same school, so I knew the
teachers, I knew the principalvery well, you know.
Speaker 1 (09:11):
so it wasn't just my kids, it was friends and
teachers that I knew who werestill at that school, that we
had to, you know, prevent thisfrom happening know, prevent
this from happening, Wow, and soso I can only imagine how that
must have been, had you knowwhat kind of effect it must have
(09:35):
had on you.
Speaker 2 (09:36):
Just like, like that visceral reaction that you must
have come across, yep, notsleeping a lot.
You know working.
You know my partner and I did.
You know she did a phenomenaljob with certain things that she
was great at that we got intohis social media accounts and
was able to see a variety ofthings that he was talking about
and posting and all that whichled to even more evidence
(09:58):
against him and eventuallygetting enough to arrest him.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
Well, I'm so glad that you were able to prevent
such a tragedy, because there'sso much going on.
You know, you hear about thisnow on the news quite a bit.
There are quite a bit of casesthat have come up, you know, and
made national news, you know,yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:22):
Yeah, and that was, you know, that played a part in
it.
You know, our little town herealmost became a town known on
the other side of the world.
You know, for tragedy Again,you know, like you said, we've
had so many and that wascertainly on our mind to prevent
this, obviously, but how closeit came to being a worldwide
(10:43):
event and, yeah, that was, thatwas one of the good ones that I
look back on and thanking Godthat, you know, give me the
ability to do it and the timingto do it and the thankfully,
preventing it.
Speaker 1 (10:57):
Well, I want to commend you for all the things
you have done and all the workyou have done.
You know you really have doneamazing work in your career and
you know done, you know the youknow very commendable and
respectable work.
(11:17):
So, back in your time when youwere serving and you starting in
1990, ending 30 years later,you know a lot has changed,
obviously in terms of policingthroughout the time and what
have you noticed to be differentnow and what it was for you
(11:41):
when you were in the force?
Speaker 2 (11:42):
Yeah, you know what Things were.
You know not to simplify, butthings were seemed simple,
easier back then.
It's dangerous, you know, scaryall that stuff, but you went to
work, you did your job, you hadthe backing.
Like you know, later on in mycareer, around 1994, when Rudy
(12:03):
Giuliani became the mayor andBill Bratton became the police
commissioner, the whole tone ofthe NYPD completely changed the
way we work, the support that wehad and the very simple message
of go be a cop.
All of you join the policedepartment to be cops, go be
cops, go arrest bad guys.
And we got your back.
To be cops, go be cops, goarrest bad guys.
(12:29):
And we got your back.
And going into work every dayand having that you know
knowledge or knowing that theadministration had your back
made your job easier.
Because, as the polar oppositeis of today, having the specter
of these radical DAs lookingover police officers' shoulders,
waiting for them to make amistake and pouncing on them and
(12:51):
criminal charges against policeofficers, the last thing that
police officers need to do ishave that on their mind while
they're trying to do somethingto prevent a crime, sometimes
saving their own lives.
You know, in a fight or youknow police officers get in
fights.
It's part of the job and toknow that they're allowed to
(13:14):
defend themselves is a big dealin today's policing.
And there's a lot ofdepartments and administrations
out there that don't haveofficers' backs and that's why
you see today more and more andmore officers getting hurt and
getting shot because they dohold back a little bit, because
(13:36):
they don't want to get introuble, and that gets them hurt
.
Speaker 1 (13:45):
Right, and you know, and we talk about, like, mental
health with cops, right, and wetalk about the intersectionality
between mental health and cops.
Now, in the wake of GeorgeFloyd, there had been talks
about having social workersaccompanying cops to calls,
(14:12):
accompanying cops to calls.
It's been widely circulatedrumors or talks, whatever people
classify it as, but it's beentalked about of that.
Can you share a little bit oflight on what your thoughts are
about those things and whatseems to be problematic in some
ways with that?
Speaker 2 (14:33):
problematic in some ways with that.
I understand the questions orthe possible policies coming up
with doing that.
I get it.
But the problem with policingis nothing scripted, nothing is
okay, no job is simple, no jobis routine or no call.
We say job at ENYPD, sorry, youknow, no call is routine and
everything can change in aabsolute second.
(14:57):
So when police officers show upto a scene that maybe a social
worker can help out in, thatsituation is still very volatile
.
So now, on top of a possibleproblem with who you're going
there to deal with or talk to,now you have to worry about the
safety of someone else that's atthat scene and that can sway
(15:21):
the judgment of officers.
It can make the situation moreof a kind of volcano than it may
be already.
Is there a place for socialworkers to respond to a scene?
100%.
But I think it's got to bescheduled out a little more and
(15:42):
worked out a little more than assimple as some conversations
are of yeah, just let a socialworker go with the cops to a job
that's.
That's not a good idea, becauselike.
I said, I've been in so manysituations, sonia, that you you
walk into a situation or a joband you think it's one thing and
(16:03):
in three seconds it iscompletely different, seconds it
is completely different.
And you have to think reallyquick and even to protect
yourself or to just kind ofadjust to the situation.
To have someone else at thatscene can be problematic.
Speaker 1 (16:20):
So in what circumstances would that even be
possible to have thingsscheduled out more so that
mental health workers, likesocial workers, can come in
right and help out in situations?
And where can you see room forgrowth between service providers
(16:40):
such as mental healthprofessionals and police
officers and law enforcementworking more together in certain
situations?
Speaker 2 (16:51):
I think, as far as the schedule goes, it could be
something as simple as thepolice officers knowing the
person who needs help becausethey go there so often.
So if one conversation takesplace with that individual of
hey listen, we're going to bringsomeone the next time we come
that you can talk to, that mightbe an inviting scenario to the
(17:15):
person you're dealing with.
Could it be something at ascheduled talk at a hospital or
a facility or whatever, if thatperson ends up being there and
the police are there.
You know there's so manydifferent ways that I think both
can work at the same time.
But it's just got to be.
It's got to be thought out alittle bit more and not as
(17:37):
simple as some people had saidof just yeah, they can go even
so.
I mean, there was some talkabout just letting social
workers by themselves go tocertain calls.
That is certainly not a goodidea Because, like I said, when
you get a phone call or 911 callof a situation, it's kind of a
(17:57):
one-dimensional piece ofinformation.
All you're doing is hearingsomeone talk about something.
You can't get a full view ofwhat that is until you get there
.
Get a full view of what that isuntil you get there, and you
might be putting someone in realdanger that's not trained and
not equipped to handle thatsituation.
So that's what I mean by.
I think more research is needed, but it can be done.
Speaker 1 (18:24):
And how would you recommend?
Then let's say, something goesthrough what are some areas that
perhaps mental healthprofessionals can be trained
more in?
And on that other side, wheredo you kind of wish or hope for
(18:51):
mental health professionals tobe trained in?
When it comes to lawenforcement, what would you like
?
Speaker 2 (18:57):
us more to understand .
Wow, that's a great questionthat really is is going to be at
the top of everyone's list whenit comes to the mental health
of law enforcement officers,because the numbers are so
incredibly bad and higher thanthey've ever been, and the root
(19:19):
of that needs to be explored why, like?
Why is it so different now thanit has been, and what's the
stresses going on?
And I think the more socialworkers work with and observe
police officers at work andmaybe at home, can get an
(19:40):
understanding of just howdynamic and how complex being a
police officer can be, fromgoing to work and then having to
not really bring your work homebut you do sometimes and don't
take what's going on at home andbring it to work, which happens
and that all culminates intosome bad and dark situations you
(20:04):
know, you think of I just saidthis on a show yesterday most
people will deal with, maybe onan average, five traumatic
events in their life.
Police officers I would dealwith five traumatic events in an
hour in an eight hour tour.
Now take that one hour dividedby your times, it by eight in
(20:28):
one day.
You're doing that maybe everysingle day for years.
That adds up and that gets toyou and I think, when police
officers finally figure out thatit's not a stigma anymore to go
and talk to someone and reachout to someone.
And that's where I think socialwork can really get embedded
(20:50):
into law enforcement even morethan it is now to assist police
officers in what's going on intheir careers and at home.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
What have you seen, you know, or what are been made
familiar with, or when, when youtalk about the interplay
between being at your job andthen home life, what have you
noticed a lot of, or when itcomes to, like how home impacts
(21:23):
also everything, becauseeverything kind of interfolds.
Right, you know you have yourhome life, you got your work
life, you know you have lifewith, you know your friends, you
know you have your, like otherareas of your life you like to
attend to.
Right, so, like, how does thatalso interplay?
What have you noticed, you know, when it comes to, like, cops
(21:44):
going home from work, what is?
What have you seen or heard ofor noticed?
Speaker 2 (21:49):
Yeah, you know, in my I can, I can use myself as an
example and I think you'll getit once.
I, once I say it, I've beenwith the same girl for 35 years.
So take everything I've done inmy career, and still with the
same person for 35 years.
And why is that?
(22:10):
The communication that we haveand always had with each other
was always paramount in ourrelationship.
Coming home and talking aboutthe night you just had is
healthy.
Are you going to go intointegral details of what
happened on one particular call?
No, and I don't mean that, butyou can get something off your
(22:33):
chest and off your mind bysimply coming home and going wow
, yeah, that was a rough night.
All right.
Hey, what happened?
Yeah, we had this call and thishappened and that happened and
not have to go into the you knowmaybe gory details of it, but
at least to get it out, becauseI don't care if you're a police
officer or whoever.
If you hold things in, everyonehas a breaking point, everyone
(22:58):
has a boiling over point andwhen it boils over it can be
really ugly because you'retaking that boiling over and
either bringing it back to workyou're not performing at the
level you should or you'rebringing it home and domestic
abuse starts, alcoholism starts,drug abuse starts.
You know, lack of payingattention to your kids start,
(23:21):
depression start.
I mean, there's so much thatgoes into this job and that's
why people think that policework is just a physical job.
It is not.
It is so much more mental thanphysical that people need to
realize and, you know, offerhelp or have police officers not
(23:44):
get jammed up for reaching outfor help.
It's okay not to be okay, youknow, especially in our
profession, and officers need toknow that it's okay to go talk
to someone.
Speaker 1 (24:01):
Oh, 100%.
You know, and I could tell youthis, in my career, you know,
being a therapist, my career,you know, of being a therapist,
I've had a couple cop clientscome in before and you know one
of them always you know heactually was protective over me
in some ways and I'll tell youit's it's not easy.
(24:23):
You know they go through so muchand you know there's a lot of
misunderstanding, a lot ofpeople, a lot of mistrust, you
know, with policing, and youknow I was fortunate enough to
gain a different perspectivewith some of the work I've done
with cops that have come into myoffice and have retained me as
(24:46):
their therapist.
And you know, and it opened myeyes to a different perspective.
Now, when everything startedhappening you know, events of
2020, right, you had the GeorgeFloyd incident, you had a lot of
outrage, you know, and I wheredo you see?
(25:08):
And so you talk about thisbeing a mental job as well as a
physical job how do you thinkall of those events also
impacted the mentality of policeofficers too, with everything,
all those events, all theprotests.
Speaker 2 (25:25):
Yeah, it made a certain impact because, again,
like I said earlier, that thatfear of oh my God, if I do this
wrong I'm going to getprosecuted, and that is the
worst thing to be thinking whenyou're, you know, on a job or on
the street and I think that'sgoing to get back to you.
(25:49):
Know, I don't want to saynormal, but I think you know
what I mean.
You know where the focus ofpolice officers on the street
need to be preventing crime,keeping people safe.
And there's differences betweenmistakes of the heart and
mistakes of your brain, mistakesof your heart going and doing
(26:09):
the right thing, but maybesomething doesn't line up and go
100% right.
That has to be evaluated thecorrect way.
If you're maliciously going outand doing something wrong,
that's a totally differentballgame and that has to be
dealt with a certain way, whichevery good cop will tell you is
okay.
Good know, good cops hate badcops more than anybody, more
(26:32):
than the public, more thaneverybody.
So if it's mistakes that you'reconsciously doing, that has to
be dealt with in a certain way.
But you know, when you'retrying to just do the right
thing and situations get chaoticand to come up with judgments
immediately because of one videoor one account or one witness
(26:57):
has a problem, you know, in mymind, because nothing is that
easy to go through a situationand kind of pick it apart a
little bit of who's and why'sand what happened.
(27:17):
I think needs to be done alittle bit more today to put
police officers' jobs at ease alittle bit in their head when
they're going into work.
Speaker 1 (27:27):
And I've heard you say before that you do agree now
with the video cams being onpolice officers.
I've heard you discuss this onother platforms or other shows
that you've been on.
You are in agreement with that.
You are in agreement withdocumenting.
You are in agreement withseeing them how they're doing
their job and also using it forfeedback for feedback.
Speaker 2 (27:54):
Oh yeah, I think I was always in favor of body cams
because I always thought it wasgoing to do more good than harm
to the police officer.
Because if you live by thisstatement and I think a lot of
us do that 99% of what policeofficers do are good, then body
cams are good.
So it's going to prove that 99percent thing is correct and
it's going to show people howfast things happen.
(28:18):
You know you're now in the kindof view or body of that police
officer and how many times I'vetalked to people that go oh my
God, that whole thing only took12 seconds.
That go oh my God, that wholething only took 12 seconds.
Yeah, exactly, you know.
And it gives people a differentevaluation or a different view
of how fast things can go wrong,how dangerous it is.
(28:41):
And you know it can also beused as a great training tool
Down the line.
You take these videos and youcan now pick it apart into
training scenarios, into policeacademies, and watch this.
What would you do indiscussions, you know, of what
you're seeing can take place atan academy level to get them
(29:03):
ready for the street?
Speaker 1 (29:06):
Sure, sure, you know, and you know I kind of
mentioned in the beginning ofthe show, as we were starting
off and kicking off, you knowthe rates of PTSD within cops.
You know that kind of goes toyour point of how you see, like,
are you seeing an average offive traumatic events in an hour
, right, right.
(29:33):
And now you take that andmultiply because you are working
obviously more than one hour onthe force, you probably have a
scheduled time.
We talk about PTSD and then wealso have talk about the
intersectionality in the senseof you see a lot of people with
mental illness that areoverrepresented in the criminal
justice system in and of itself,system in and of itself.
(29:53):
Can you kind of give us some,just kind of shed some light on
your thoughts behind this, whatyou think you know, what's
happening here with thefunneling of people in the
system?
Like just using your knowledgeof what you know?
Speaker 2 (30:03):
Yeah, you know there's, hey, there's a big
broken piece to the criminaljustice system that has to be
worked out and changed and fixedand all that.
Do people with mental healthissues deserve to be in a, you
know, general population jail?
No, that's not going to work.
It's not going to work foranybody.
So there needs to be somethingset up on a better level of
(30:25):
addressing that.
And maybe, you know, developingand putting more into facilities
than jail, you know, but that'sa case by case basis and I
don't mean to kind of throweveryone into one you know
category of everyone with mentalillness is OK and doesn't
belong in jail.
I didn't mean that, you know,you know, but I think it it has
(30:50):
to be evaluated and checked andtalked about a little more than
it is, because it just kind ofbecomes a revolving door.
You know you have a violentcriminal that might be mentally
unstable and it gets addressedthat way and he's OK, put him
back on the street and it justkeeps happening because you're
(31:11):
not getting the help that heneeds.
Jail's not the help.
Not everyone gets rehabilitatedin jail.
So just continuously doing thatand then throwing him back on
the street because they didtheir time is not working.
That's obvious.
So that has to be addressed ona really comprehensive level.
Speaker 1 (31:33):
And where do you see room for growth in the criminal
justice system, like in terms of, you know, with police officers
, right?
Where do you see room forgrowth when it comes to handling
people with mental illnesses?
Where do you think it?
Where can you find, likethere's, you know, some changes
could be made?
(31:53):
And what would you if you hadthe chance, right, to be in
charge of creating a difference,creating change in the system?
If you could, right, if you hadthat power to say, tom smith,
we are going to give you allthis power.
Uh, we're going to give youthis position where you get to
(32:15):
make changes to the system atlarge.
Speaker 2 (32:18):
What would you do?
Well, I'm going to go on twothoughts of this One.
The first thing I'm going totell you is police departments.
Police departments need to betrained better and more often
when dealing with thesesituations.
There needs to be much moretraining and much more money
that goes into training insituations or about situations
(32:41):
like this, because the moreyou're trained, the more you're
hearing from experts who dealwith it every day, the more
equipped you're going to be togo out there.
The other thing I would do isand I brought this up one other
time it more equipped you'regoing to be to go out there.
The other thing I would do isand I brought this up one other
time, it's funny you asked thisquestion I would set up a
special section of a districtattorney's office that is a kind
of task force of districtattorneys, police officers and
(33:06):
mental health experts intodealing with certain cases that
fit their criteria and what isthe best route and what is the
best way to get that person thehelp they need.
Some do deserve to be in jail,some need to be evaluated a
different way for a facility,but I think if you set some sort
(33:27):
of task force up within adistrict attorney's office that
covers everyone that's needed tomake these decisions, I think
would be a really good start.
Speaker 1 (33:39):
I think that's a fabulous idea.
I think that definitely thereneeds to be more education on
both ends right, Both for notonly police officers to
understand mental healthsituations, but also for mental
health professionals tounderstand more of the type of
work involved.
Speaker 2 (34:00):
I totally agree.
Speaker 1 (34:03):
What is a piece of advice you'd give to somebody?
Let's say they come up to youand they say hey, tom, you know
I want to be a cop.
I think it's so cool, I want tobe a cop.
You know what's a piece ofadvice you'd give to all people
who are aspiring to be cops, andwhat is one thing you'd want
(34:24):
people to walk away with?
Speaker 2 (34:26):
And it's a great question.
I love answering this questionand when I give this answer, a
lot of people don't expect thisanswer.
All right, I've said this inpolice academies that I've
spoken in.
I've given this answer on otherpodcasts.
I've given this answer atcolleges I've spoken to.
The number one thing that youcan do to get ready to be a
(34:49):
police officer is hone in andmake your communication skills
the best they can be.
If you can't talk to someone,you are not going to be
successful.
If you don't have the skills toevaluate a situation and have a
discussion and talk to anotherhuman being the way you need to
(35:09):
as a police officer, you are notgoing to be successful.
You know communications is allover the world.
I can talk to a kid in theBronx and go over to Afghanistan
and talk to a kid in Kabul,kind of the same way.
It's a skill that is missingfrom law enforcement and it's
(35:31):
only going to make you better asyour career goes from patrol to
being a detective and havingthe skills to interview someone,
interrogate someone, talk to awitness, talk to a victim's
family.
If you can't do that, you'regoing to be shot and lost.
(35:51):
I don't mean shot shot.
I mean you're just you're notgoing to be good at what you do.
And I tell everyone that ifthere's one thing physically,
yeah, you can work out, you canrun, you can go to the range,
you know and fire your weaponand become good at that.
You can take a martial artsclass.
That's great.
(36:12):
But what's the commondenominator in everything I just
rattled off All of those youpractice at?
You go to the range andpractice.
You go to your martial artsclass and practice.
You go to the gym all the time.
You need to do that with yourcommunication skills every day
to get better at it.
You just can't sit behind yourdesk and go.
(36:33):
Okay, let me go outside todayand talk to two people.
You need to constantly do it,and observing is the other part
of it.
Not to go on too long, I'msorry, but other people that
you're around watch them.
Watch a more experienceddetective or officer talk to
someone and take what they'redoing and observe and take ideas
(36:56):
of what you're watching maybe amore experienced detective or
officer do at a scene.
How are they talking to someone?
How are they like kind ofbringing your situation down to
a manageable level and notramping it up.
Those are skills that arereally really important in law
enforcement.
Speaker 1 (37:19):
And how would you suggest now, when you say to
improve communication skills,what are some key tips that you
can give to somebody who, let'ssay, may not be the best
communicator or may need help inthat area to help to grow?
Speaker 2 (37:37):
Act like yourself, be yourself, don't be this
mythical cop.
That is one way, and stern andcold, and because I have to be
like that in my job in orderthat I don't get walked on or
people take advantage of me,that is necessary at a point in
(37:58):
time, but not all the time.
To show people you're human,you laugh, you joke, you can,
you know, cry with them.
To show them that means theworld to people.
We used to all the time, sonia,especially on patrol, and I
remember doing it in narcotics.
If we were driving around therewere kids playing basketball on
(38:21):
the corner.
Yeah, you know what Time outfor 10 minutes.
Park the car, get out, play aballgame with them, throw a
football down the street, golong Go.
You know we did that all thetime.
Now, what does that do?
That shows those kids thatyou're not a robot, that maybe
(38:43):
you're not everything the mediais saying about you and
something at some point is goingto happen in that area and
those kids are going to be thereand they're going to remember
when you played ball with themfor five minutes or laughed with
them or joked with them to say,hey, what happened?
Oh, yeah, this guy did this.
Thanks, man, appreciate it.
Give him a fist bump and youget in your car and you do your
(39:05):
job.
That happens every single dayin New York City, all right,
that happens all single day inNew York City, all right, that
happens all the time.
So the more you become kind ofbonded with the community that
you're working in, that theyunderstand that you're human and
you're not a machine, thebetter your job will be another
(39:34):
way to build trust again thentoo, and build that sense of you
know what.
Speaker 1 (39:36):
Not all cops that the comedians portraying them as to
be your menaces right like,because there's a lot you know.
Of course you know there arecertain people that get bad reps
right, bad reputations.
Cops happen to be in that group.
But you know everybody hasmisconceptions on any group,
really, right, if you thinkabout it.
You know, and that's just kindof the way society has been
(39:58):
right.
So, and I think a big part ofyou know, changing a lot of
these misconceptions is in factby setting examples of who you
are.
That is not.
That's different than what.
Is that common misconception?
Speaker 2 (40:21):
Oh, absolutely, and you know what it's not.
There's times it's not easy.
You're not going to get throughto everybody.
All right, that's not going tohappen, you're not.
So you kind of pick and chooseyour battles.
You know there's times you'regoing to show up at a scene
you're going to get told to Foff and get the hell out of here
.
I don't want to talk to you andyou deal with that.
You know, and that's going to.
That's going to happensometimes.
But it's breaking through tothe people who are open-minded
(40:45):
about who you are.
That's who you want to talk to,because maybe they can have the
conversation with the peoplewho are closed-minded and have a
conversation with the peoplewho are closed minded and have a
conversation with them about it.
So it's, it's a, it's a largenetwork that that can work.
Uh, as long as you work at it.
Speaker 1 (41:03):
Absolutely.
You know, and I reallyappreciate your insight.
I appreciate your, you knowempathy and your compassion.
You know, and it.
I really feel like I learned alot today out of this for myself
and I hope, you know, I canonly imagine my listeners will
also learn a lot and have anenlightening and enlightenment
(41:26):
out of this.
I know I surely have.
So, tom, what is one thing youwould like to end our session
with?
What am I doing?
I'm not in therapy.
I'm not in therapy.
Okay, end this discussion withwhat is a piece of advice,
what's a piece of hope, what's apiece of inspiration you'd like
(41:49):
to give to our listeners today?
Speaker 2 (41:51):
You know what I'm going to end it and you know
this kind of the way we end ourshow on Gold Shields, that if
you see a police officersomewhere, give him a wave, pat
him on the back of having fivetraumatic events happen to you
in an hour.
(42:16):
That cop that's sitting theremight've just went through one,
he might've just responded tothe death of a child and he has
an infinite home, something likethat.
And when a cop is sitting thereand thinking about something he
just went through, for somebodyanyone to go hey, buddy, thanks
very much, man, you needanything, you need a coffee, you
(42:36):
need a water?
I'll go get it for you.
That means the world to apolice officer.
You know they're driving by.
Wave at them.
Hey, I know, I understand whatyou're doing.
I got your back.
Thank you for what you're doing.
You know there's we do this onholidays a lot.
Everyone always puts posts outof happy whatever, merry,
(42:57):
whatever, and there's so manycops that aren't with their
families.
Why?
Because they're out theremaking sure your families are
safe and that they're not withtheirs.
So I always want everyone tounderstand that cops are human.
They bleed, they hurt, they cry, they, you know, get emotional.
(43:18):
We're not robots and the morepeople understand that I think
the better off we'll besociety-wise, protecting our
police officers who areprotecting the public.
Speaker 1 (43:32):
Everyone gets on that same page of you know, of that
understanding, I think will beOK show on Instagram, definitely
(43:53):
check him out on YouTube and hehas had, honestly, the most
amazing guests on there and he'sAll the stories that he talks
about on his podcast on Tom'spodcast has been nothing short
of just amazing, and so thankyou, tom, and we will, and we
(44:19):
will conclude for the today.
Thank you very much to all thelisteners.
If you haven't already, pleasesubscribe, review and also share
with your family and friendsabout On the Spectrum with Sonia
and also share with your familyand friends about On the
Spectrum with Sonia.
My book, dropped in a Maze,will be coming out shortly at
(44:43):
the Creative Con in February inChicago at the Intercontinental
Hotel.
The book launches February 21st.
And yes, just if you would liketo hear more, if you enjoyed
today's episode and want to hearmore, just remember subscribe
to on the spectrum with sonia.
We're available on all audiopodcasts, including apple,
spotify, amazon music andanywhere you subscribe for your
(45:07):
podcasts.
Thank you.
Hello everyone and welcome to today's episode of On
the Spectrum with Sonia, apodcast where we discuss autism
spectrum, mental healthchallenges and anybody who's
overcome any adversity to leavepeople feeling inspired,
encouraged, full of hope, loveand connection, especially in a
(00:23):
world where we are constantlytrying to be disconnected from
one another.
Did you know that policeofficers are more likely to have
PTSD than your averagepopulation?
And did you also know who'soverrepresented in the criminal
justice system?
Are people with mental healthissues?
(00:44):
Know who's overrepresented inthe criminal justice system?
Are people with mental healthissues here to talk about
today's challenges andintersectionality between law
enforcement and mental health?
We have Tom Schilt.
He is, or Tom Smith.
Sorry, tom Smith.
What am I talking about?
Tom Smith from the Gold ShieldShow.
I love.
It's a widely popular podcast.
He's had amazing guests on hisshow and I'm so honored that
(01:08):
he's come on here today.
Tom Smith is a retired NYPD.
He joined in 1990 and servedfor 30 years, and so, without
further ado, let's just pleasewelcome Tom Smith to the show.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Hey Sonia, how are you?
Speaker 1 (01:27):
Hey, how are you doing?
Thank you so much for coming onhere today.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
Thank you very much for having me.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
So, tom, can you tell us a little bit about you?
What inspired you to go intothe police force, what you know
like?
Tell us a little bit about yourupbringing, any particular
thing that kind of sparked youand was like, oh, let me, you
know, let me go into this route.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
Well, I had a big spark in my life and that was my
dad.
He was a retired NYPD detectiveand I grew up with that.
You know he served in the 50s,the 60sies and the seventies
when the city was kind ofanother world than it is now.
So I grew up in that world andI grew up as as every little boy
(02:12):
.
You know, my dad being my heroand wanting to be like him.
Uh, I would steal his shieldoff his dresser when he got home
and chase my sisters aroundCause I the detective and it's
just everything I always wantedand what I wanted to do.
There really was no kind of 1Ain my life.
(02:34):
I was going to go down thisroute and do the very best I
could at doing it and luckily in1990, had the opportunity to do
that and was in the best policedepartment in the world for 30
years and enjoyed every minuteof it Not every minute, I
shouldn't say that.
You know, we have, we all haveour days that are bad and so
(02:56):
forth, but it was everything Ithought it would be, and even
more times, even more at times.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
So, from watching your dad be in the police force,
what was something that youknow, you saw out of it, that
you were able to observe, thatyou were like, oh wow.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
I could see myself doing this too.
The hard work that goes into itand the connection and
friendship that he had with hispartners that always resonated.
You know we would go toprecincts that he worked in, you
know, on the way to a Yankeegame or after a Yankee game, and
it was always like walking intosomeone's house.
It wasn't like a workenvironment.
It was weird just how bondedeveryone was in that room, in
that squad room or whatever itmight have been.
(03:42):
And then going to like precinctpicnics with him and outings
and seeing everyone the way theywere meant a lot to me and I
tried to do the same thing andstill do the same thing as I go
on with life and in the policedepartment.
But that was a big part of itfor me.
Speaker 1 (04:02):
So it seems like there was like a big sense of
camaraderie, apart from the workitself.
It seems like it really trulywas, even though as cliche as it
may seem, but it seemed likethey were a family.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
Oh, very much.
You know you relied on eachother.
They would come.
They would come to barbecues,they would come to weddings,
they would come to you know,whatever was going on.
It was the list of guys fromwork or girls from work and that
was at that table and it justwas the thing.
They would come down to ourhouse down the Jersey Shore, you
know, for a weekend.
You know families.
(04:35):
I still one of my dad'spartners who, tragic
unfortunately, had just passedaway last year, unfortunately
had just passed away last year Istill, to this day, stay in
touch with their family.
My sisters do, that's how, andthey worked together in the late
60s and early and mid 70s.
And we're still friends withJoe's family even today.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
That is such an amazing quality to have, you
know, an amazing thing to have,where you know people stay
connected and really truly treateach other like family and not
just people.
Speaker 2 (05:11):
You just clock in and clock out with Right, like you
actually form that connection,form that bond when you joined
(05:31):
in 1990, did you also see thatsame replica in your cohort of
people, like you saw with yourfather?
Yeah, you know, it was kind ofsomething I was expecting
because I thought it was thenorm.
So once it did happen and youget so close to the people
you're working with, and afteryour shift you'd go out, you'd
(05:52):
get something to eat, and thenwhen I got married, like I just
said, an entire table, twotables full of people I worked
with, you know, and coming tochristenings and coming to
birthdays and all that was justthe normal thing to do.
And even to this day, stayingin touch with people that I work
with I mean, my old partner isstill one of my good friends
that we talk to each other allthe time.
I just talked to him the otherday.
(06:12):
And it's just that thing, thatit's the understanding that
you're putting your life insomeone's hands and you're
hoping they come through and youcome through for them, and
that's an incredible bond thatsticks with law enforcement
officers throughout a lifetime.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
So so it seems like you know it was a very rewarding
experience for you.
Ultimately, you know it wasalso because of the kind of
connections you made.
But talk, let's talk a littlebit about the work itself.
Now, when you were in the force, does anything kind of
particularly stand out for youin terms of any cases you've
(06:54):
worked on?
Any case you've came acrossthat perhaps impacted you in
some way, shape or form?
Speaker 2 (07:01):
Oh, we could do an entire show just on that, sonia.
Oh, we could do an entire showjust on that Sonya there's,
there were so many.
You know I had the good fortuneof having a very good career
and being involved in a lot ofdifferent things, from patrol to
.
You know.
I was in a really bad shootingin 1993 with three armed guys
(07:29):
that one of our officers gotshot during it.
He survived, but it was a, youknow, big, impactful event that
happened.
That, you know, still to thisday.
Every once in a while it popsinto my head.
You know what we went throughthat day to very great cases of,
you know, being deployed toAfghanistan for three months
(07:52):
searching for a New York Timesreporter who was kidnapped by an
al Qaeda group and working witha Navy SEAL team and the CIA
and then eventually getting himout like we did.
So that was one of thosehighlights, and you know another
(08:14):
big one was stopping a schoolshooting in the school that two
of my kids were in.
Oh my gosh, you know, was mycase along my partner from the
FBI and stopping it, you know, acouple of days before it was
planned to happen, and arrestingthe individual who was the main
perpetrator in it.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
Oh my goodness, that must have hit you doubly hard
because it was at a school thatyour kids are at.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
Oh yeah, that was an interesting one and I've done,
you know, many shows just onthat case and the the part of it
of finding out that it was thatschool, which was my, you know,
our local school, and having torace against the time that we
figured the event was going tohappen or the attack was going
to happen, and getting enoughevidence and everything we
(08:59):
needed to arrest this person, ontop of thinking of you know my
kids at that school and manyother people.
you know, all my kids went tothe same school, so I knew the
teachers, I knew the principalvery well, you know.
Speaker 1 (09:11):
so it wasn't just my kids, it was friends and
teachers that I knew who werestill at that school, that we
had to, you know, prevent thisfrom happening know, prevent
this from happening, Wow, and soso I can only imagine how that
must have been, had you knowwhat kind of effect it must have
(09:35):
had on you.
Speaker 2 (09:36):
Just like, like that visceral reaction that you must
have come across, yep, notsleeping a lot.
You know working.
You know my partner and I did.
You know she did a phenomenaljob with certain things that she
was great at that we got intohis social media accounts and
was able to see a variety ofthings that he was talking about
and posting and all that whichled to even more evidence
(09:58):
against him and eventuallygetting enough to arrest him.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
Well, I'm so glad that you were able to prevent
such a tragedy, because there'sso much going on.
You know, you hear about thisnow on the news quite a bit.
There are quite a bit of casesthat have come up, you know, and
made national news, you know,yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:22):
Yeah, and that was, you know, that played a part in
it.
You know, our little town herealmost became a town known on
the other side of the world.
You know, for tragedy Again,you know, like you said, we've
had so many and that wascertainly on our mind to prevent
this, obviously, but how closeit came to being a worldwide
(10:43):
event and, yeah, that was, thatwas one of the good ones that I
look back on and thanking Godthat, you know, give me the
ability to do it and the timingto do it and the thankfully,
preventing it.
Speaker 1 (10:57):
Well, I want to commend you for all the things
you have done and all the workyou have done.
You know you really have doneamazing work in your career and
you know done, you know the youknow very commendable and
respectable work.
(11:17):
So, back in your time when youwere serving and you starting in
1990, ending 30 years later,you know a lot has changed,
obviously in terms of policingthroughout the time and what
have you noticed to be differentnow and what it was for you
(11:41):
when you were in the force?
Speaker 2 (11:42):
Yeah, you know what Things were.
You know not to simplify, butthings were seemed simple,
easier back then.
It's dangerous, you know, scaryall that stuff, but you went to
work, you did your job, you hadthe backing.
Like you know, later on in mycareer, around 1994, when Rudy
(12:03):
Giuliani became the mayor andBill Bratton became the police
commissioner, the whole tone ofthe NYPD completely changed the
way we work, the support that wehad and the very simple message
of go be a cop.
All of you join the policedepartment to be cops, go be
cops, go arrest bad guys.
And we got your back.
To be cops, go be cops, goarrest bad guys.
(12:29):
And we got your back.
And going into work every dayand having that you know
knowledge or knowing that theadministration had your back
made your job easier.
Because, as the polar oppositeis of today, having the specter
of these radical DAs lookingover police officers' shoulders,
waiting for them to make amistake and pouncing on them and
(12:51):
criminal charges against policeofficers, the last thing that
police officers need to do ishave that on their mind while
they're trying to do somethingto prevent a crime, sometimes
saving their own lives.
You know, in a fight or youknow police officers get in
fights.
It's part of the job and toknow that they're allowed to
(13:14):
defend themselves is a big dealin today's policing.
And there's a lot ofdepartments and administrations
out there that don't haveofficers' backs and that's why
you see today more and more andmore officers getting hurt and
getting shot because they dohold back a little bit, because
(13:36):
they don't want to get introuble, and that gets them hurt
.
Speaker 1 (13:45):
Right, and you know, and we talk about, like, mental
health with cops, right, and wetalk about the intersectionality
between mental health and cops.
Now, in the wake of GeorgeFloyd, there had been talks
about having social workersaccompanying cops to calls,
(14:12):
accompanying cops to calls.
It's been widely circulatedrumors or talks, whatever people
classify it as, but it's beentalked about of that.
Can you share a little bit oflight on what your thoughts are
about those things and whatseems to be problematic in some
ways with that?
Speaker 2 (14:33):
problematic in some ways with that.
I understand the questions orthe possible policies coming up
with doing that.
I get it.
But the problem with policingis nothing scripted, nothing is
okay, no job is simple, no jobis routine or no call.
We say job at ENYPD, sorry, youknow, no call is routine and
everything can change in aabsolute second.
(14:57):
So when police officers show upto a scene that maybe a social
worker can help out in, thatsituation is still very volatile
.
So now, on top of a possibleproblem with who you're going
there to deal with or talk to,now you have to worry about the
safety of someone else that's atthat scene and that can sway
(15:21):
the judgment of officers.
It can make the situation moreof a kind of volcano than it may
be already.
Is there a place for socialworkers to respond to a scene?
100%.
But I think it's got to bescheduled out a little more and
(15:42):
worked out a little more than assimple as some conversations
are of yeah, just let a socialworker go with the cops to a job
that's.
That's not a good idea, becauselike.
I said, I've been in so manysituations, sonia, that you you
walk into a situation or a joband you think it's one thing and
(16:03):
in three seconds it iscompletely different, seconds it
is completely different.
And you have to think reallyquick and even to protect
yourself or to just kind ofadjust to the situation.
To have someone else at thatscene can be problematic.
Speaker 1 (16:20):
So in what circumstances would that even be
possible to have thingsscheduled out more so that
mental health workers, likesocial workers, can come in
right and help out in situations?
And where can you see room forgrowth between service providers
(16:40):
such as mental healthprofessionals and police
officers and law enforcementworking more together in certain
situations?
Speaker 2 (16:51):
I think, as far as the schedule goes, it could be
something as simple as thepolice officers knowing the
person who needs help becausethey go there so often.
So if one conversation takesplace with that individual of
hey listen, we're going to bringsomeone the next time we come
that you can talk to, that mightbe an inviting scenario to the
(17:15):
person you're dealing with.
Could it be something at ascheduled talk at a hospital or
a facility or whatever, if thatperson ends up being there and
the police are there.
You know there's so manydifferent ways that I think both
can work at the same time.
But it's just got to be.
It's got to be thought out alittle bit more and not as
(17:37):
simple as some people had saidof just yeah, they can go even
so.
I mean, there was some talkabout just letting social
workers by themselves go tocertain calls.
That is certainly not a goodidea Because, like I said, when
you get a phone call or 911 callof a situation, it's kind of a
(17:57):
one-dimensional piece ofinformation.
All you're doing is hearingsomeone talk about something.
You can't get a full view ofwhat that is until you get there
.
Get a full view of what that isuntil you get there, and you
might be putting someone in realdanger that's not trained and
not equipped to handle thatsituation.
So that's what I mean by.
I think more research is needed, but it can be done.
Speaker 1 (18:24):
And how would you recommend?
Then let's say, something goesthrough what are some areas that
perhaps mental healthprofessionals can be trained
more in?
And on that other side, wheredo you kind of wish or hope for
(18:51):
mental health professionals tobe trained in?
When it comes to lawenforcement, what would you like
?
Speaker 2 (18:57):
us more to understand .
Wow, that's a great questionthat really is is going to be at
the top of everyone's list whenit comes to the mental health
of law enforcement officers,because the numbers are so
incredibly bad and higher thanthey've ever been, and the root
(19:19):
of that needs to be explored why, like?
Why is it so different now thanit has been, and what's the
stresses going on?
And I think the more socialworkers work with and observe
police officers at work andmaybe at home, can get an
(19:40):
understanding of just howdynamic and how complex being a
police officer can be, fromgoing to work and then having to
not really bring your work homebut you do sometimes and don't
take what's going on at home andbring it to work, which happens
and that all culminates intosome bad and dark situations you
(20:04):
know, you think of I just saidthis on a show yesterday most
people will deal with, maybe onan average, five traumatic
events in their life.
Police officers I would dealwith five traumatic events in an
hour in an eight hour tour.
Now take that one hour dividedby your times, it by eight in
(20:28):
one day.
You're doing that maybe everysingle day for years.
That adds up and that gets toyou and I think, when police
officers finally figure out thatit's not a stigma anymore to go
and talk to someone and reachout to someone.
And that's where I think socialwork can really get embedded
(20:50):
into law enforcement even morethan it is now to assist police
officers in what's going on intheir careers and at home.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
What have you seen, you know, or what are been made
familiar with, or when, when youtalk about the interplay
between being at your job andthen home life, what have you
noticed a lot of, or when itcomes to, like how home impacts
(21:23):
also everything, becauseeverything kind of interfolds.
Right, you know you have yourhome life, you got your work
life, you know you have lifewith, you know your friends, you
know you have your, like otherareas of your life you like to
attend to.
Right, so, like, how does thatalso interplay?
What have you noticed, you know, when it comes to, like, cops
(21:44):
going home from work, what is?
What have you seen or heard ofor noticed?
Speaker 2 (21:49):
Yeah, you know, in my I can, I can use myself as an
example and I think you'll getit once.
I, once I say it, I've beenwith the same girl for 35 years.
So take everything I've done inmy career, and still with the
same person for 35 years.
And why is that?
(22:10):
The communication that we haveand always had with each other
was always paramount in ourrelationship.
Coming home and talking aboutthe night you just had is
healthy.
Are you going to go intointegral details of what
happened on one particular call?
No, and I don't mean that, butyou can get something off your
(22:33):
chest and off your mind bysimply coming home and going wow
, yeah, that was a rough night.
All right.
Hey, what happened?
Yeah, we had this call and thishappened and that happened and
not have to go into the you knowmaybe gory details of it, but
at least to get it out, becauseI don't care if you're a police
officer or whoever.
If you hold things in, everyonehas a breaking point, everyone
(22:58):
has a boiling over point andwhen it boils over it can be
really ugly because you'retaking that boiling over and
either bringing it back to workyou're not performing at the
level you should or you'rebringing it home and domestic
abuse starts, alcoholism starts,drug abuse starts.
You know, lack of payingattention to your kids start,
(23:21):
depression start.
I mean, there's so much thatgoes into this job and that's
why people think that policework is just a physical job.
It is not.
It is so much more mental thanphysical that people need to
realize and, you know, offerhelp or have police officers not
(23:44):
get jammed up for reaching outfor help.
It's okay not to be okay, youknow, especially in our
profession, and officers need toknow that it's okay to go talk
to someone.
Speaker 1 (24:01):
Oh, 100%.
You know, and I could tell youthis, in my career, you know,
being a therapist, my career,you know, of being a therapist,
I've had a couple cop clientscome in before and you know one
of them always you know heactually was protective over me
in some ways and I'll tell youit's it's not easy.
(24:23):
You know they go through so muchand you know there's a lot of
misunderstanding, a lot ofpeople, a lot of mistrust, you
know, with policing, and youknow I was fortunate enough to
gain a different perspectivewith some of the work I've done
with cops that have come into myoffice and have retained me as
(24:46):
their therapist.
And you know, and it opened myeyes to a different perspective.
Now, when everything startedhappening you know, events of
2020, right, you had the GeorgeFloyd incident, you had a lot of
outrage, you know, and I wheredo you see?
(25:08):
And so you talk about thisbeing a mental job as well as a
physical job how do you thinkall of those events also
impacted the mentality of policeofficers too, with everything,
all those events, all theprotests.
Speaker 2 (25:25):
Yeah, it made a certain impact because, again,
like I said earlier, that thatfear of oh my God, if I do this
wrong I'm going to getprosecuted, and that is the
worst thing to be thinking whenyou're, you know, on a job or on
the street and I think that'sgoing to get back to you.
(25:49):
Know, I don't want to saynormal, but I think you know
what I mean.
You know where the focus ofpolice officers on the street
need to be preventing crime,keeping people safe.
And there's differences betweenmistakes of the heart and
mistakes of your brain, mistakesof your heart going and doing
(26:09):
the right thing, but maybesomething doesn't line up and go
100% right.
That has to be evaluated thecorrect way.
If you're maliciously going outand doing something wrong,
that's a totally differentballgame and that has to be
dealt with a certain way, whichevery good cop will tell you is
okay.
Good know, good cops hate badcops more than anybody, more
(26:32):
than the public, more thaneverybody.
So if it's mistakes that you'reconsciously doing, that has to
be dealt with in a certain way.
But you know, when you'retrying to just do the right
thing and situations get chaoticand to come up with judgments
immediately because of one videoor one account or one witness
(26:57):
has a problem, you know, in mymind, because nothing is that
easy to go through a situationand kind of pick it apart a
little bit of who's and why'sand what happened.
(27:17):
I think needs to be done alittle bit more today to put
police officers' jobs at ease alittle bit in their head when
they're going into work.
Speaker 1 (27:27):
And I've heard you say before that you do agree now
with the video cams being onpolice officers.
I've heard you discuss this onother platforms or other shows
that you've been on.
You are in agreement with that.
You are in agreement withdocumenting.
You are in agreement withseeing them how they're doing
their job and also using it forfeedback for feedback.
Speaker 2 (27:54):
Oh yeah, I think I was always in favor of body cams
because I always thought it wasgoing to do more good than harm
to the police officer.
Because if you live by thisstatement and I think a lot of
us do that 99% of what policeofficers do are good, then body
cams are good.
So it's going to prove that 99percent thing is correct and
it's going to show people howfast things happen.
(28:18):
You know you're now in the kindof view or body of that police
officer and how many times I'vetalked to people that go oh my
God, that whole thing only took12 seconds.
That go oh my God, that wholething only took 12 seconds.
Yeah, exactly, you know.
And it gives people a differentevaluation or a different view
of how fast things can go wrong,how dangerous it is.
(28:41):
And you know it can also beused as a great training tool
Down the line.
You take these videos and youcan now pick it apart into
training scenarios, into policeacademies, and watch this.
What would you do indiscussions, you know, of what
you're seeing can take place atan academy level to get them
(29:03):
ready for the street?
Speaker 1 (29:06):
Sure, sure, you know, and you know I kind of
mentioned in the beginning ofthe show, as we were starting
off and kicking off, you knowthe rates of PTSD within cops.
You know that kind of goes toyour point of how you see, like,
are you seeing an average offive traumatic events in an hour
, right, right.
(29:33):
And now you take that andmultiply because you are working
obviously more than one hour onthe force, you probably have a
scheduled time.
We talk about PTSD and then wealso have talk about the
intersectionality in the senseof you see a lot of people with
mental illness that areoverrepresented in the criminal
justice system in and of itself,system in and of itself.
(29:53):
Can you kind of give us some,just kind of shed some light on
your thoughts behind this, whatyou think you know, what's
happening here with thefunneling of people in the
system?
Like just using your knowledgeof what you know?
Speaker 2 (30:03):
Yeah, you know there's, hey, there's a big
broken piece to the criminaljustice system that has to be
worked out and changed and fixedand all that.
Do people with mental healthissues deserve to be in a, you
know, general population jail?
No, that's not going to work.
It's not going to work foranybody.
So there needs to be somethingset up on a better level of
(30:25):
addressing that.
And maybe, you know, developingand putting more into facilities
than jail, you know, but that'sa case by case basis and I
don't mean to kind of throweveryone into one you know
category of everyone with mentalillness is OK and doesn't
belong in jail.
I didn't mean that, you know,you know, but I think it it has
(30:50):
to be evaluated and checked andtalked about a little more than
it is, because it just kind ofbecomes a revolving door.
You know you have a violentcriminal that might be mentally
unstable and it gets addressedthat way and he's OK, put him
back on the street and it justkeeps happening because you're
(31:11):
not getting the help that heneeds.
Jail's not the help.
Not everyone gets rehabilitatedin jail.
So just continuously doing thatand then throwing him back on
the street because they didtheir time is not working.
That's obvious.
So that has to be addressed ona really comprehensive level.
Speaker 1 (31:33):
And where do you see room for growth in the criminal
justice system, like in terms of, you know, with police officers
, right?
Where do you see room forgrowth when it comes to handling
people with mental illnesses?
Where do you think it?
Where can you find, likethere's, you know, some changes
could be made?
(31:53):
And what would you if you hadthe chance, right, to be in
charge of creating a difference,creating change in the system?
If you could, right, if you hadthat power to say, tom smith,
we are going to give you allthis power.
Uh, we're going to give youthis position where you get to
(32:15):
make changes to the system atlarge.
Speaker 2 (32:18):
What would you do?
Well, I'm going to go on twothoughts of this One.
The first thing I'm going totell you is police departments.
Police departments need to betrained better and more often
when dealing with thesesituations.
There needs to be much moretraining and much more money
that goes into training insituations or about situations
(32:41):
like this, because the moreyou're trained, the more you're
hearing from experts who dealwith it every day, the more
equipped you're going to be togo out there.
The other thing I would do isand I brought this up one other
time it more equipped you'regoing to be to go out there.
The other thing I would do isand I brought this up one other
time, it's funny you asked thisquestion I would set up a
special section of a districtattorney's office that is a kind
of task force of districtattorneys, police officers and
(33:06):
mental health experts intodealing with certain cases that
fit their criteria and what isthe best route and what is the
best way to get that person thehelp they need.
Some do deserve to be in jail,some need to be evaluated a
different way for a facility,but I think if you set some sort
(33:27):
of task force up within adistrict attorney's office that
covers everyone that's needed tomake these decisions, I think
would be a really good start.
Speaker 1 (33:39):
I think that's a fabulous idea.
I think that definitely thereneeds to be more education on
both ends right, Both for notonly police officers to
understand mental healthsituations, but also for mental
health professionals tounderstand more of the type of
work involved.
Speaker 2 (34:00):
I totally agree.
Speaker 1 (34:03):
What is a piece of advice you'd give to somebody?
Let's say they come up to youand they say hey, tom, you know
I want to be a cop.
I think it's so cool, I want tobe a cop.
You know what's a piece ofadvice you'd give to all people
who are aspiring to be cops, andwhat is one thing you'd want
(34:24):
people to walk away with?
Speaker 2 (34:26):
And it's a great question.
I love answering this questionand when I give this answer, a
lot of people don't expect thisanswer.
All right, I've said this inpolice academies that I've
spoken in.
I've given this answer on otherpodcasts.
I've given this answer atcolleges I've spoken to.
The number one thing that youcan do to get ready to be a
(34:49):
police officer is hone in andmake your communication skills
the best they can be.
If you can't talk to someone,you are not going to be
successful.
If you don't have the skills toevaluate a situation and have a
discussion and talk to anotherhuman being the way you need to
(35:09):
as a police officer, you are notgoing to be successful.
You know communications is allover the world.
I can talk to a kid in theBronx and go over to Afghanistan
and talk to a kid in Kabul,kind of the same way.
It's a skill that is missingfrom law enforcement and it's
(35:31):
only going to make you better asyour career goes from patrol to
being a detective and havingthe skills to interview someone,
interrogate someone, talk to awitness, talk to a victim's
family.
If you can't do that, you'regoing to be shot and lost.
(35:51):
I don't mean shot shot.
I mean you're just you're notgoing to be good at what you do.
And I tell everyone that ifthere's one thing physically,
yeah, you can work out, you canrun, you can go to the range,
you know and fire your weaponand become good at that.
You can take a martial artsclass.
That's great.
(36:12):
But what's the commondenominator in everything I just
rattled off All of those youpractice at?
You go to the range andpractice.
You go to your martial artsclass and practice.
You go to the gym all the time.
You need to do that with yourcommunication skills every day
to get better at it.
You just can't sit behind yourdesk and go.
(36:33):
Okay, let me go outside todayand talk to two people.
You need to constantly do it,and observing is the other part
of it.
Not to go on too long, I'msorry, but other people that
you're around watch them.
Watch a more experienceddetective or officer talk to
someone and take what they'redoing and observe and take ideas
(36:56):
of what you're watching maybe amore experienced detective or
officer do at a scene.
How are they talking to someone?
How are they like kind ofbringing your situation down to
a manageable level and notramping it up.
Those are skills that arereally really important in law
enforcement.
Speaker 1 (37:19):
And how would you suggest now, when you say to
improve communication skills,what are some key tips that you
can give to somebody who, let'ssay, may not be the best
communicator or may need help inthat area to help to grow?
Speaker 2 (37:37):
Act like yourself, be yourself, don't be this
mythical cop.
That is one way, and stern andcold, and because I have to be
like that in my job in orderthat I don't get walked on or
people take advantage of me,that is necessary at a point in
(37:58):
time, but not all the time.
To show people you're human,you laugh, you joke, you can,
you know, cry with them.
To show them that means theworld to people.
We used to all the time, sonia,especially on patrol, and I
remember doing it in narcotics.
If we were driving around therewere kids playing basketball on
(38:21):
the corner.
Yeah, you know what Time outfor 10 minutes.
Park the car, get out, play aballgame with them, throw a
football down the street, golong Go.
You know we did that all thetime.
Now, what does that do?
That shows those kids thatyou're not a robot, that maybe
(38:43):
you're not everything the mediais saying about you and
something at some point is goingto happen in that area and
those kids are going to be thereand they're going to remember
when you played ball with themfor five minutes or laughed with
them or joked with them to say,hey, what happened?
Oh, yeah, this guy did this.
Thanks, man, appreciate it.
Give him a fist bump and youget in your car and you do your
(39:05):
job.
That happens every single dayin New York City, all right,
that happens all single day inNew York City, all right, that
happens all the time.
So the more you become kind ofbonded with the community that
you're working in, that theyunderstand that you're human and
you're not a machine, thebetter your job will be another
(39:34):
way to build trust again thentoo, and build that sense of you
know what.
Speaker 1 (39:36):
Not all cops that the comedians portraying them as to
be your menaces right like,because there's a lot you know.
Of course you know there arecertain people that get bad reps
right, bad reputations.
Cops happen to be in that group.
But you know everybody hasmisconceptions on any group,
really, right, if you thinkabout it.
You know, and that's just kindof the way society has been
(39:58):
right.
So, and I think a big part ofyou know, changing a lot of
these misconceptions is in factby setting examples of who you
are.
That is not.
That's different than what.
Is that common misconception?
Speaker 2 (40:21):
Oh, absolutely, and you know what it's not.
There's times it's not easy.
You're not going to get throughto everybody.
All right, that's not going tohappen, you're not.
So you kind of pick and chooseyour battles.
You know there's times you'regoing to show up at a scene
you're going to get told to Foff and get the hell out of here
.
I don't want to talk to you andyou deal with that.
You know, and that's going to.
That's going to happensometimes.
But it's breaking through tothe people who are open-minded
(40:45):
about who you are.
That's who you want to talk to,because maybe they can have the
conversation with the peoplewho are closed-minded and have a
conversation with the peoplewho are closed minded and have a
conversation with them about it.
So it's, it's a, it's a largenetwork that that can work.
Uh, as long as you work at it.
Speaker 1 (41:03):
Absolutely.
You know, and I reallyappreciate your insight.
I appreciate your, you knowempathy and your compassion.
You know, and it.
I really feel like I learned alot today out of this for myself
and I hope, you know, I canonly imagine my listeners will
also learn a lot and have anenlightening and enlightenment
(41:26):
out of this.
I know I surely have.
So, tom, what is one thing youwould like to end our session
with?
What am I doing?
I'm not in therapy.
I'm not in therapy.
Okay, end this discussion withwhat is a piece of advice,
what's a piece of hope, what's apiece of inspiration you'd like
(41:49):
to give to our listeners today?
Speaker 2 (41:51):
You know what I'm going to end it and you know
this kind of the way we end ourshow on Gold Shields, that if
you see a police officersomewhere, give him a wave, pat
him on the back of having fivetraumatic events happen to you
in an hour.
(42:16):
That cop that's sitting theremight've just went through one,
he might've just responded tothe death of a child and he has
an infinite home, something likethat.
And when a cop is sitting thereand thinking about something he
just went through, for somebodyanyone to go hey, buddy, thanks
very much, man, you needanything, you need a coffee, you
(42:36):
need a water?
I'll go get it for you.
That means the world to apolice officer.
You know they're driving by.
Wave at them.
Hey, I know, I understand whatyou're doing.
I got your back.
Thank you for what you're doing.
You know there's we do this onholidays a lot.
Everyone always puts posts outof happy whatever, merry,
(42:57):
whatever, and there's so manycops that aren't with their
families.
Why?
Because they're out theremaking sure your families are
safe and that they're not withtheirs.
So I always want everyone tounderstand that cops are human.
They bleed, they hurt, they cry, they, you know, get emotional.
(43:18):
We're not robots and the morepeople understand that I think
the better off we'll besociety-wise, protecting our
police officers who areprotecting the public.
Speaker 1 (43:32):
Everyone gets on that same page of you know, of that
understanding, I think will beOK show on Instagram, definitely
(43:53):
check him out on YouTube and hehas had, honestly, the most
amazing guests on there and he'sAll the stories that he talks
about on his podcast on Tom'spodcast has been nothing short
of just amazing, and so thankyou, tom, and we will, and we
(44:19):
will conclude for the today.
Thank you very much to all thelisteners.
If you haven't already, pleasesubscribe, review and also share
with your family and friendsabout On the Spectrum with Sonia
and also share with your familyand friends about On the
Spectrum with Sonia.
My book, dropped in a Maze,will be coming out shortly at
(44:43):
the Creative Con in February inChicago at the Intercontinental
Hotel.
The book launches February 21st.
And yes, just if you would liketo hear more, if you enjoyed
today's episode and want to hearmore, just remember subscribe
to on the spectrum with sonia.
We're available on all audiopodcasts, including apple,
spotify, amazon music andanywhere you subscribe for your
(45:07):
podcasts.
Thank you.
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