July 1, 2025 • 30 mins
By now, everybody has heard of traditional going to therapy and taking medications, if necessary. However, what role does neurofeedback play in treating mental health?
Meet Meg Stuppy, founder of the Los Angeles Neurofeedback Center and co-founder of Clarity Direct Neurofeedback, who joins us to illuminate how neurofeedback technology is transforming mental health treatment by helping rebalance the brain's natural rhythms. With 13 years of experience in the field, Meg explains in accessible terms how this brain-based approach works and why it's gaining recognition as a powerful complement to traditional therapies.
At its core, Direct Neurofeedback uses EEG sensors to read brainwave patterns and send back customized microcurrent signals that help dysfunctional patterns recalibrate. The beauty of this approach lies in its simplicity for clients – they remain completely passive during the 30-minute sessions, yet many report feeling shifts in their mental state.
What makes this conversation particularly compelling are the real-world examples Meg shares. From adults stuck in anxious hypervigilance who suddenly find themselves navigating LA traffic without honking, to children on the autism spectrum who significantly reduce self-injurious behaviors, the results speak to neurofeedback's potential to improve quality of life. One particularly moving case involves a child who went from biting his hand to bleeding 5-6 times daily to experiencing entire days without the behavior after just 15 sessions.
Whether you're a mental health professional looking to expand your toolkit or someone struggling with anxiety, depression, trauma, or neurodevelopmental differences, this episode offers fresh insights into how addressing nervous system dysregulation might be the missing link in your healing journey. By the end, you'll understand why so many clients say, "I haven't felt this way in years" after experiencing what a balanced nervous system truly feels like.
Ready to explore how neurofeedback might complement your existing mental health approaches? Listen now and discover why balancing the brain might be the foundation everything else can build upon.
Meg Stuppy can be reached at info@losangelesneurofeedbackcenter.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Hello everyone and welcome to this week's episode
of On the Spectrum with Sonia, apodcast where we discuss autism
spectrum mental healthchallenges and highlight stories
of inspiration to leave ouraudience feeling empowered,
connected, encouraged, loved andespecially in a world where
(00:25):
we're continuously trying to bedivided and disconnected by a
world promoting that, pushingthat on us.
Today we're going to be talkingabout neurofeedback.
Neurofeedback and this is adisclaimer here this is not to
be constructed as any advice orany directives that we're giving
(00:48):
.
We're discussing neurofeedbackin terms of how it's
complementing psychotherapy andanybody who goes to a
psychiatrist for any medicationto help with the biochemical
aspects of any mental healthconditions.
(01:09):
Neurofeedback is an area that isgrowing and today we have a
very special guest from LosAngeles, meg Stuppe.
She is the founder of the LosAngeles Neurofeedback Center and
co-founder of Clarity DirectNeurofeedback, and she has been
(01:30):
doing neurofeedback for severalyears.
She's very qualified in thisarea and, without further ado, I
actually want to introduce herto all of you now.
So, meg, thank you so much forbeing here today and joining us.
I have been really followingall that you've been doing and
(01:55):
it's so amazing to me just thework that you've been doing.
So why don't you tell us alittle bit about yourself and
what brought you to doingneurofeedback?
Speaker 2 (02:07):
Thank you, Sonia, and thank you for having me on.
And yeah, I started myneurofeedback journey 13 years
ago.
I founded the Los AngelesNeurofeedback Center and since
then you know, we've really beenfocusing on helping local
community the best we can and,big picture, really helping to
(02:28):
balance the nervous systemthrough neurofeedback therapy
and biofeedback therapies.
Specifically, we've been usingclarity direct neurofeedback as
the main neurofeedback modalityin our clinic neurofeedback
(02:50):
modality in our clinic.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
So explain to us.
You know the basics of what isneurofeedback and how are people
gaining from this complementtherapy.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
Sure, neurofeedback is a type of biofeedback and
with direct neurofeedback we'reusing a brain-based technology
that's based on an EEG whichreads your brainwaves, kind of
like an EKG reads your heart.
So we put sensors on theclient's brain to read their
brainwaves, which goes throughour system and it sends back a
(03:22):
customized signal to the clientthrough the sensors, which
allows dysfunctional brainwavepatterns to recalibrate and get
back to their natural, normalhomeostasis.
We find that after trauma whichcould be emotional trauma or it
could be physical trauma likehitting your head, or it could
just be prolonged stress fromany point in your life that the
(03:46):
brain can get out of calibrationand can get stuck with an
unbalanced nervous system,either in the sympathetic or
parasympathetic overdrive whichreally affects all of your
biology in different ways.
So with direct neurofeedback,typically sessions are about 30
minutes.
The client's totally passive,there's nothing that they need
(04:08):
to do in order for theneurofeedback to work, which is
what makes it different thantraditional neurofeedback
modalities.
So the client's just sittingthere, we put the sensors on and
typically clients will begin tofeel a little bit of a shift
during the session or after thesession.
Clients will begin to feel alittle bit of a shift during the
session or after the session.
So what makes directneurofeedback something that's
(04:35):
different than traditionalbiofeedback modalities is that
the client will typically noticea difference in the first
couple sessions.
So they're not having to gothrough eight to 10 sessions
before they know if it'll be agood fit for them, and because
of that, a lot of therapists andphysicians like their patients
to come in and use this as anadjunct modality so that the
nervous system is able to becomemore balanced, so that they're
(04:58):
able to get further in othertherapies that they're utilizing
.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
So you have mentioned the parasympathetic and
sympathetic nervous system.
How does that play a role in aperson's mental health and their
well-being, in how they'reresponding to any kinds of
treatment?
What role does each play?
And how does the directneurofeedback how does that also
(05:26):
help highlight theparasympathetic and sympathetic
nervous systems and provideuseful boosts in treatment?
Speaker 2 (05:37):
It's a great question .
When we're stuck in asympathetic overdrive, where
we're in that fight or flightmode, it really affects
everything from the way thatwe're thinking to how our gut is
digesting food.
And so when you're stuck inthat sympathetic overdrive, you
know we see symptoms of higheranxiety.
(05:58):
We see clients who arehypervigilant, we see clients
who are not able to self-sootheand calm down, and they can try
meditation, they can try talktherapy.
There are a lot of things thatthey can try to do.
But when you're stuck in thatfight or flight where your
body's in survival mode, there'sonly so much use you can get
(06:19):
out of different modalities whenyour body's reacting like it's
trying to survive.
Or, on the opposite end, if yougo into that parasympathetic
freeze shutdown mode, we seeclients who are coming in with
symptoms of depression, wherethey're just not able to get up
and go, and so you know, the gutslows down, it's hard to
(06:40):
motivate, sleep is disturbed.
In both of those we find thatthese symptoms decrease with
neurofeedback as the nervoussystem is able to rebalance and
with that clients are then ableto get further again at using
those more Western medicalapproaches that are needed now,
(07:02):
when you are monitoring, uh, thebrain, are you also looking at
the dorsal vagal in the brain aswell, the dorsal vagal?
Speaker 1 (07:11):
are you looking at the like, the vasovagal
throughout the body?
You know the receptors of thevagus system.
Are you looking through allthat as well?
Speaker 2 (07:20):
no, with direct neurofeedback.
We're really just monitoringthe EEG and the brainwaves.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
Okay, but the brainwaves are telling of the
sympathetic and theparasympathetic connection,
Correct?
Now you said that patients haveseen a shift during session, so
could you give us an example of, let's say, somebody was to
(07:47):
walk in.
What would like a case studyexample look like, right, when a
patient comes in they areexperiencing, let's say, some
trauma, they have PTSD perhaps,or somebody now I know you've
also mentioned you've had workedwith people on the autism
(08:08):
spectrum right who have come inwhat would like a typical
session look like.
Speaker 2 (08:15):
Sure.
So the client comes in and inthe first session, you know, we
discuss what the process lookslike, why they're coming in and
after that we'll actuallyadminister a session.
We make sure that they're notdriving afterwards for the first
session, because sometimes youcan get tired or relaxed, and so
(08:36):
when we're administering thesession we come up with a few
different areas that we'll trackthat are based on that specific
client and what they're comingin for and how they're feeling.
And what we're looking for isany change, either while they're
sitting during the 30-minutesession or as they continue
their day.
So if someone's coming in withreally high anxiety, hyper
(08:56):
vigilance, sweaty palms, highheart rate what we'll do is
we'll monitor those thingsduring the session and then
after the session to see ifthey're noticing any difference
or if they have difficultysleeping.
We'll, in the morning, havethem send a message in with how
their sleep was.
You know how many times didthey wake up, how long did it
(09:17):
take for them to get back tosleep?
So typically with anythingthat's anxiety related, clients
will notice that their symptomsdecrease pretty immediately.
In the beginning it will beshort lived, meaning it will be
temporary, Noticing a decreaseanywhere from half hour to a few
days, depending on.
With autism, with our autismclients, we're really looking
(09:40):
for overall nervous systemregulation.
For overall nervous systemregulation and with kids for
example, one of our clientsright now when he gets upset,
what he'll do is he'll put hishand in his mouth and he'll bite
his hand to the point ofcausing bleeding.
In the beginning it was aboutfive or six times a day, and so
now he's about two months in.
(10:02):
He's had about 10, no, I wouldsay about 15 sessions, and so he
still gets upset, but he'sputting his hand in his mouth
less often and there are dayswhere he doesn't bite down at
all, and so, as his nervoussystem is more resilient and
more relaxed, he's able to havemore bandwidth with controlling
(10:23):
those emotional responses andfor the family, that's the
quality of life change there isworth them continuing sessions.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
During the time that they are, and I want to say this
is remarkable.
That's a remarkable progressfor someone to make in terms of,
you know, just decreasing theamount of times they're putting
their hand in their mouth andbiting it.
That's remarkable that they'renot doing this as often within
the timeframe of getting thisdirect feedback.
(10:55):
And you said he only had whatlike 10 sessions, which is
amazing to see that much change,you know, within that bandwidth
of sessions, during the timethat people are having their
session.
Now you said it's about what?
30 minutes.
In that 30 minutes are youasking questions to people?
(11:20):
Is there some kind of likeformat they're're following,
like what you know, what goes onduring that time?
Speaker 2 (11:28):
Sure, we have them fill out some basic intake forms
beforehand.
Okay, we make sure that thereis a clinician that is is that
they're under the care of, tohelp with anything else that
they may be dealing with.
And what we do is we come upwith we really kind of
personalize our sessions to theclient so we come up with ways
(11:51):
to track surveys, to track howlong they're noticing a
difference, for which helps usknow with consecutive sessions
what we need to change on ourend as far as the stimulation
that we're sending.
So it's really just aboutpersonalizing questions and
surveys so that we can trackprogress.
Speaker 1 (12:13):
During the time that they're being monitored and
having the sensors on theirbrain to measure the waves, are
you asking them the questionsyou've tailored for them during
the time they're having thisdone?
Speaker 2 (12:31):
We typically.
It depends on how self-awarethe client is.
Sometimes we'll, while we'reactually giving the feedback,
we'll kind of sit in silencejust so they can be more
self-aware of how they'refeeling.
But we're not trying to evokeany kind of emotion during the
session by asking questions, sothe client doesn't need to be
doing anything in order for itto work.
So, especially in the firstsession, like as we're actually
(12:53):
giving the feedback, it's notunusual for us to kind of just
sit there and have them justhang out and relax and see how
they're feeling.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
When you're giving them feedback, what are?
What exactly are youpinpointing at?
Are you going to be pinpointingcertain areas of the brain
where you're noticing moreactivity, or are you trying to
just kind of so that they'remore aware of how it's affecting
them with their brain, withtheir processing?
(13:25):
Or are you, um, just trying togive them a baseline, like, like
, how do you explain that to aclient?
Speaker 2 (13:36):
sure.
So with direct neurofeedback,we are just making sure that the
eeg is on properly and that thereading is clear and that the
feedback is going back properly.
So we're not diagnosing basedon what we're seeing and the
placement is the same foreveryone.
So there's no, we're notlooking to see or doing any
(13:57):
mapping or QEEGs in order forthe process to work, which is
what makes direct neurofeedbackdifferent and actually, in my
opinion, makes it much easier totry, because you don't need to
jump through the hoops of havinga QEEG or having specific
monitoring done beforehand anddiagnosis done beforehand in
(14:19):
order for it to work.
Speaker 1 (14:24):
Okay, and so when clients are being more
introspective, if you will,during that time that they're in
session, now, do you noticethat a lot of clients will
openly just share things duringthe time that they're in session
(14:45):
?
That comes out just kind ofnaturally, like you know, if
they're feeling a certain way.
So like somebody, like kind ofgoing to an example you had used
earlier, somebody is veryhypervigilant, has high anxiety
is and just has maybe, like yousaid, a higher heart rate,
things like that.
Do you notice that things willjust come out naturally when
(15:09):
they're getting monitored, or dopeople pretty much just kind of
, are they left to be moreintrospective, to just kind of
be aware of their feelings?
Speaker 2 (15:19):
It really depends on the client.
I mean, when we have clientscoming in who have, are
experiencing symptoms of anxietythat are like eight or nine out
of 10 and have been for years,when they feel like that starts
to drop down in the sympatheticnervous system relaxes, it can
be emotional for some of themand that's why we were always
(15:41):
sure to we always make sure thatthey have a therapist or a
clinician that they can go to toprocess those feelings.
So it's not unusual, as they,you know, come back down into
more homeostasis in theirnervous system, that things will
come up that they've kind ofbeen pushing aside, you know,
for many years in some casescases and the relaxation that
(16:10):
happens, is it just more becauseof just?
Speaker 1 (16:11):
is it because of the way that the structure is?
When you get, when a person isin the session because the
brainwaves you're getting thebrainwaves recorded, people are
just, they're left to sit andjust be present, they're left to
sit and just be present thatrelaxation that you talk about,
that happens is it somethingthat you find is like a natural
(16:34):
phenomena, with all that?
Speaker 2 (16:37):
It's?
The most common thing thatclients will experience is kind
of more of a relaxation feeling.
Some other clients will kind offeel more relaxed and alert.
They'll explain it as like acalm alertness.
And then there are some clientswho feel like a little bit
euphoric.
Speaker 1 (16:49):
Almost Everyone's just kind of different with how
their body responds as theirnervous system readjusts itself
and what have you noticed to bekind of like a theme that for
people who've in your experiencehaving done neurofeedback now
for 13 years um, what have younoticed to be like a common
(17:13):
theme amongst many clients?
What have you noticed to be, uh, something that really kind of
stands out?
Speaker 2 (17:21):
I think that a lot of our clients have become really
used to living life with adysregulated nervous system and
they forget what it can feellike to feel more balance, to
not be at those eights and ninesout of tens, whether it be
symptoms of anxiety or symptomsof depression.
Symptoms of anxiety or symptomsof depression.
(17:47):
And so it's pretty common forclients to say like I haven't
felt like this in years, or Ididn't realize how off kilter I
was for so long because I justbecame so accustomed to living
that way.
And it's really what makes thethe work very meaningful to us.
It kind of gives it gives theclient an ability to feel more
(18:09):
balanced in their life, wherethey're able to access more and
what they're doing in theirday-to-day and how they're
feeling in their day-to-day andwhat's that realization like for
people?
Speaker 1 (18:21):
like how?
How do people know, then?
Like, how are they able to?
You know you're getting thisfeedback, you're, you know
people are getting the feedback.
How are they able to just kindof come to this realization that
they've been off kilter for somany years that they've never
felt a certain way like thisbefore?
Or if they have, it's been areally long time so that they
(18:42):
don't remember even the lasttime, right, you know?
How is it that they're able toactually come to this
realization of that?
You know what happens in thebody with this process, I guess
would be.
My question is what happensduring this process in the body
that causes this relaxation?
Speaker 2 (19:00):
causes this relaxation?
Yeah, so, as the as the brainreadjusts and gets back to, you
know, gets back to neuronalpathways that it hasn't used in
sometimes many, many years, evendecades, I think that what
(19:24):
stands out the most of theclient is that they're able to
do their day-to-day taskswithout so much noise, whether
that be like rumination in thehead or feeling so much stress
in order to do basic tasks.
So with some clients, you know,we, what we'll do is we'll
focus on just, you know, how wasit getting home from the
appointment?
You know, and they'll get homeand they'll be like wow, it's
(19:45):
been a decade since I haven'thonked my horn on the way home
or felt angst while driving inLA traffic.
Or with our kids who are comingin for ADD, ADHD symptoms, just
the parents being able to seethat they were able to sit, you
know, for 20 minutes andcomplete a task without having
(20:05):
to get up five times.
Or for our clients who aresuffering from PTSD, you know,
being able to walk their dog andnot jump when they hear a door
slam or someone hits theirbrakes.
So it's just the little thingsin day-to-day seem to be less
(20:25):
triggering and easier for themto just live their life without
being feeling like they're onedge all the time, able to be
more present and enjoying lifeand this is all due to strictly
(20:48):
just once again, just havingthat being still moments.
Speaker 1 (20:53):
It seems like that just having that ability to just
be still having that monitoring, just alone it seems to
activate different parts of thebrain naturally.
Yes, that's really amazing.
(21:14):
And what would be the sciencethen behind that?
Because there's no electricalstimulation, it's just
brainwaves being monitored.
What would be the sciencebehind how other parts of the
brain get activated?
Speaker 2 (21:29):
So there is the feedback is a microcurrent that
is going through the sensors.
So the sensors are readingbrainwaves, it's going through
the EEG in the system and it'ssending back a microcurrent
signal that's customized to theclient, that allows those
dysfunctional neuronal pathwaysto reset.
So that is where the feedbackis coming directly to the client
(21:52):
through the sensors.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
And do you notice that in you know, like you've
given the examples of?
Like you know, like the 10sessions with somebody on the
autism spectrum who would engagein rather self-injurious
behaviors during meltdowns, haveyou noticed that, like 10
sessions or about approximatelythat much would be all that you
(22:20):
know would be sufficient formost people, would be all that
you know would be sufficient formost people, or do you notice
that it just or does it varyamongst people?
But is it?
Speaker 2 (22:31):
rather short lived sessions Like it's not like a
long term thing.
So typically it's 15 to 25sessions total that are done
over a few months.
Mm hmm, With our clients on thespectrum that can be a longer
process.
Where it's ongoing, wherethey're coming in maybe every
other month for a session.
It doesn't stick as well incertain cases for them, but for
(22:57):
other clients it's typically twosessions a week for the first
three weeks.
So we get those thatreinforcement in for those first
six sessions and then, as theresults are enduring, you begin
to come in with more timebetween.
So by the time you're hittingthe 15 to 25 sessions, you're
coming in maybe once every sixweeks so so it's like um.
Speaker 1 (23:31):
So this is all very interesting.
This is something, I will behonest, I didn't know a whole
lot about um.
Where can people go to get moreresources and information and
training, perhaps aboutneurofeedback?
Speaker 2 (23:46):
Sure yeah.
Our websitelosangelesneurofeedbackcentercom
gives more information ingeneral For any clinicians that
are interested in potentiallyusing the technology and their
practice.
They can go toclaritydirectneurofeedbackcom
for more information and you canalso find a list of providers
(24:08):
near you onclaritydirectneurofeedbackcom.
Speaker 1 (24:13):
Are these lists of providers?
Now, is it all, throughout thecountry?
Speaker 2 (24:18):
It's pretty much North America.
So we have some providers inCanada and we have a couple of
providers in Mexico.
Speaker 1 (24:29):
Awesome, awesome.
What brought you to doing?
What got you into neurofeedback?
Speaker 2 (24:46):
family of physicians.
I studied biology in undergradand I thought I would go the
whole med school route, butbecame pretty disenchanted with
the idea after graduating ofgoing to more school, and so I
felt depressed.
I felt kind of lost.
I didn't know what to do withmyself.
I didn't want to go onantidepressants, and someone
recommended that I tryneurofeedback, and so I did and
(25:09):
I was really impressed.
It was the traditional kind ofneurofeedback, so it took about
eight or nine sessions before Ireally noticed a difference, but
I was really impressed at howit kind of helped me get back to
feeling like myself again andable to take the next steps, and
so I had no problem with goingto school for neurofeedback.
So that's what I did and therest is kind of history.
(25:31):
Me and neurofeedback found eachother.
It was great because I wantedto help people, I wanted to have
my own business and it was kindof just the perfect thing.
Speaker 1 (25:44):
How long did it take you to get the training for it
and everything, and what'd youhave to do to get trained for it
?
Speaker 2 (25:48):
Sure it took about a year.
I first studied at BrainStateTechnologies in Arizona
utilizing their equipment, andthen I studied in Los Angeles
specifically for directneurofeedback.
Speaker 1 (26:04):
Los Angeles specifically for direct
neurofeedback.
Well, thank you so much forthis very engaging and
educational topic.
And one thing if you could saysomething like, let's say, many
clinicians may be skeptical tothose out there listening to
this.
Some may be skeptical, some maybe thinking well, you know, if
(26:24):
there's medication and there'sEMDR, and there's hypnosis for
trauma, and there's CBT, dbt andall these other traditional
therapy techniques out there,you know how would you answer
somebody that would ask whyshould we care about
(26:45):
neurofeedback and to incorporateit?
Speaker 2 (26:49):
You know, it's just another option, another adjunct
therapy that can help in thewhole process.
All those things you listed areI've found to be very helpful
and my clients have found to bevery helpful.
I've found to be very helpfuland my clients have found to be
very helpful.
What's nice about the directneurofeedback is if it's going
to be helpful.
(27:09):
Typically the clients will feelthe difference in the first
couple of sessions, and so, witha more balanced nervous system,
often they're able to getfurther using those other
modalities you mentioned, andthey're able to access more when
they're more relaxed and notfeeling stuck in that
sympathetic or parasympatheticstate.
Speaker 1 (27:29):
Okay, well, thank you very much, and thank you so
much for clarifying that andexplaining to all of us what
that is, and this is definitelya topic I'm very interested in
and learning and growing from.
So thank you for imparting thisknowledge to us.
Now, meg, if people wanted tofind you and reach out to you,
(27:51):
perhaps for questions, to learnmore, to gain more information,
where can people find you?
Speaker 2 (27:57):
You can find me on our websites.
You can find me on our socials.
You can also just send an emailto info at Los Angeles
neurofeedbackcentercom or infoat claritydirectneurofeedbackcom
and you'll get me.
I'm happy to hear from anyoneor answer any questions anyone
might have.
Speaker 1 (28:18):
Well, thank you so much for being here today.
All your information, all Meg'sinformation, will be in the
show notes and, with that beingsaid, I want to thank Meg for
being here with us today andsharing such amazing knowledge
(28:41):
and interesting topics thateveryone, whether you're a
clinician who works in mentalhealth or not, can all benefit
and learn from.
Also, as we're wrapping up, Iwant to remind everyone that my
book Dropped in a Maze isavailable on Amazon and is being
(29:05):
sold by all major retailers.
As promised for those whopurchased my book and wrote a
review.
I've been reading the reviewsout loud on the podcast.
Been reading the reviews outloud on the podcast, so today's
(29:27):
review is from Octavio Rodriguez.
This book was a breath of freshair.
It's an incredible insight intothe world of those living with
autism.
As a therapist, I found thisbook so helpful for supporting
and treating folks with needsfor social and emotional
training.
Sonia had me cracking upthroughout the book with her
remarkable stories and wit.
This book was written socreatively by adding Sonia's
(29:51):
insight into what would havebeen helpful with certain skills
, tools and certain tool skillsbeen available to her at the
time.
Her at the time 10 out of 10would recommend for anyone
touched by autism or anyonelooking for a great personal
memoir parentheses my favoriteliterature genre and parentheses
.
Thank you, octavio.
Um and with that being said, um, you know, if you enjoyed
(30:17):
today's episode, pleasesubscribe, rate, review and
share with your family andfriends, and looking forward to
being back and sharing more withall of you next time, take care
.
Hello everyone and welcome to this week's episode
of On the Spectrum with Sonia, apodcast where we discuss autism
spectrum mental healthchallenges and highlight stories
of inspiration to leave ouraudience feeling empowered,
connected, encouraged, loved andespecially in a world where
(00:25):
we're continuously trying to bedivided and disconnected by a
world promoting that, pushingthat on us.
Today we're going to be talkingabout neurofeedback.
Neurofeedback and this is adisclaimer here this is not to
be constructed as any advice orany directives that we're giving
(00:48):
.
We're discussing neurofeedbackin terms of how it's
complementing psychotherapy andanybody who goes to a
psychiatrist for any medicationto help with the biochemical
aspects of any mental healthconditions.
(01:09):
Neurofeedback is an area that isgrowing and today we have a
very special guest from LosAngeles, meg Stuppe.
She is the founder of the LosAngeles Neurofeedback Center and
co-founder of Clarity DirectNeurofeedback, and she has been
(01:30):
doing neurofeedback for severalyears.
She's very qualified in thisarea and, without further ado, I
actually want to introduce herto all of you now.
So, meg, thank you so much forbeing here today and joining us.
I have been really followingall that you've been doing and
(01:55):
it's so amazing to me just thework that you've been doing.
So why don't you tell us alittle bit about yourself and
what brought you to doingneurofeedback?
Speaker 2 (02:07):
Thank you, Sonia, and thank you for having me on.
And yeah, I started myneurofeedback journey 13 years
ago.
I founded the Los AngelesNeurofeedback Center and since
then you know, we've really beenfocusing on helping local
community the best we can and,big picture, really helping to
(02:28):
balance the nervous systemthrough neurofeedback therapy
and biofeedback therapies.
Specifically, we've been usingclarity direct neurofeedback as
the main neurofeedback modalityin our clinic neurofeedback
(02:50):
modality in our clinic.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
So explain to us.
You know the basics of what isneurofeedback and how are people
gaining from this complementtherapy.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
Sure, neurofeedback is a type of biofeedback and
with direct neurofeedback we'reusing a brain-based technology
that's based on an EEG whichreads your brainwaves, kind of
like an EKG reads your heart.
So we put sensors on theclient's brain to read their
brainwaves, which goes throughour system and it sends back a
(03:22):
customized signal to the clientthrough the sensors, which
allows dysfunctional brainwavepatterns to recalibrate and get
back to their natural, normalhomeostasis.
We find that after trauma whichcould be emotional trauma or it
could be physical trauma likehitting your head, or it could
just be prolonged stress fromany point in your life that the
(03:46):
brain can get out of calibrationand can get stuck with an
unbalanced nervous system,either in the sympathetic or
parasympathetic overdrive whichreally affects all of your
biology in different ways.
So with direct neurofeedback,typically sessions are about 30
minutes.
The client's totally passive,there's nothing that they need
(04:08):
to do in order for theneurofeedback to work, which is
what makes it different thantraditional neurofeedback
modalities.
So the client's just sittingthere, we put the sensors on and
typically clients will begin tofeel a little bit of a shift
during the session or after thesession.
Clients will begin to feel alittle bit of a shift during the
session or after the session.
So what makes directneurofeedback something that's
(04:35):
different than traditionalbiofeedback modalities is that
the client will typically noticea difference in the first
couple sessions.
So they're not having to gothrough eight to 10 sessions
before they know if it'll be agood fit for them, and because
of that, a lot of therapists andphysicians like their patients
to come in and use this as anadjunct modality so that the
nervous system is able to becomemore balanced, so that they're
(04:58):
able to get further in othertherapies that they're utilizing
.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
So you have mentioned the parasympathetic and
sympathetic nervous system.
How does that play a role in aperson's mental health and their
well-being, in how they'reresponding to any kinds of
treatment?
What role does each play?
And how does the directneurofeedback how does that also
(05:26):
help highlight theparasympathetic and sympathetic
nervous systems and provideuseful boosts in treatment?
Speaker 2 (05:37):
It's a great question .
When we're stuck in asympathetic overdrive, where
we're in that fight or flightmode, it really affects
everything from the way thatwe're thinking to how our gut is
digesting food.
And so when you're stuck inthat sympathetic overdrive, you
know we see symptoms of higheranxiety.
(05:58):
We see clients who arehypervigilant, we see clients
who are not able to self-sootheand calm down, and they can try
meditation, they can try talktherapy.
There are a lot of things thatthey can try to do.
But when you're stuck in thatfight or flight where your
body's in survival mode, there'sonly so much use you can get
(06:19):
out of different modalities whenyour body's reacting like it's
trying to survive.
Or, on the opposite end, if yougo into that parasympathetic
freeze shutdown mode, we seeclients who are coming in with
symptoms of depression, wherethey're just not able to get up
and go, and so you know, the gutslows down, it's hard to
(06:40):
motivate, sleep is disturbed.
In both of those we find thatthese symptoms decrease with
neurofeedback as the nervoussystem is able to rebalance and
with that clients are then ableto get further again at using
those more Western medicalapproaches that are needed now,
(07:02):
when you are monitoring, uh, thebrain, are you also looking at
the dorsal vagal in the brain aswell, the dorsal vagal?
Speaker 1 (07:11):
are you looking at the like, the vasovagal
throughout the body?
You know the receptors of thevagus system.
Are you looking through allthat as well?
Speaker 2 (07:20):
no, with direct neurofeedback.
We're really just monitoringthe EEG and the brainwaves.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
Okay, but the brainwaves are telling of the
sympathetic and theparasympathetic connection,
Correct?
Now you said that patients haveseen a shift during session, so
could you give us an example of, let's say, somebody was to
(07:47):
walk in.
What would like a case studyexample look like, right, when a
patient comes in they areexperiencing, let's say, some
trauma, they have PTSD perhaps,or somebody now I know you've
also mentioned you've had workedwith people on the autism
(08:08):
spectrum right who have come inwhat would like a typical
session look like.
Speaker 2 (08:15):
Sure.
So the client comes in and inthe first session, you know, we
discuss what the process lookslike, why they're coming in and
after that we'll actuallyadminister a session.
We make sure that they're notdriving afterwards for the first
session, because sometimes youcan get tired or relaxed, and so
(08:36):
when we're administering thesession we come up with a few
different areas that we'll trackthat are based on that specific
client and what they're comingin for and how they're feeling.
And what we're looking for isany change, either while they're
sitting during the 30-minutesession or as they continue
their day.
So if someone's coming in withreally high anxiety, hyper
(08:56):
vigilance, sweaty palms, highheart rate what we'll do is
we'll monitor those thingsduring the session and then
after the session to see ifthey're noticing any difference
or if they have difficultysleeping.
We'll, in the morning, havethem send a message in with how
their sleep was.
You know how many times didthey wake up, how long did it
(09:17):
take for them to get back tosleep?
So typically with anythingthat's anxiety related, clients
will notice that their symptomsdecrease pretty immediately.
In the beginning it will beshort lived, meaning it will be
temporary, Noticing a decreaseanywhere from half hour to a few
days, depending on.
With autism, with our autismclients, we're really looking
(09:40):
for overall nervous systemregulation.
For overall nervous systemregulation and with kids for
example, one of our clientsright now when he gets upset,
what he'll do is he'll put hishand in his mouth and he'll bite
his hand to the point ofcausing bleeding.
In the beginning it was aboutfive or six times a day, and so
now he's about two months in.
(10:02):
He's had about 10, no, I wouldsay about 15 sessions, and so he
still gets upset, but he'sputting his hand in his mouth
less often and there are dayswhere he doesn't bite down at
all, and so, as his nervoussystem is more resilient and
more relaxed, he's able to havemore bandwidth with controlling
(10:23):
those emotional responses andfor the family, that's the
quality of life change there isworth them continuing sessions.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
During the time that they are, and I want to say this
is remarkable.
That's a remarkable progressfor someone to make in terms of,
you know, just decreasing theamount of times they're putting
their hand in their mouth andbiting it.
That's remarkable that they'renot doing this as often within
the timeframe of getting thisdirect feedback.
(10:55):
And you said he only had whatlike 10 sessions, which is
amazing to see that much change,you know, within that bandwidth
of sessions, during the timethat people are having their
session.
Now you said it's about what?
30 minutes.
In that 30 minutes are youasking questions to people?
(11:20):
Is there some kind of likeformat they're're following,
like what you know, what goes onduring that time?
Speaker 2 (11:28):
Sure, we have them fill out some basic intake forms
beforehand.
Okay, we make sure that thereis a clinician that is is that
they're under the care of, tohelp with anything else that
they may be dealing with.
And what we do is we come upwith we really kind of
personalize our sessions to theclient so we come up with ways
(11:51):
to track surveys, to track howlong they're noticing a
difference, for which helps usknow with consecutive sessions
what we need to change on ourend as far as the stimulation
that we're sending.
So it's really just aboutpersonalizing questions and
surveys so that we can trackprogress.
Speaker 1 (12:13):
During the time that they're being monitored and
having the sensors on theirbrain to measure the waves, are
you asking them the questionsyou've tailored for them during
the time they're having thisdone?
Speaker 2 (12:31):
We typically.
It depends on how self-awarethe client is.
Sometimes we'll, while we'reactually giving the feedback,
we'll kind of sit in silencejust so they can be more
self-aware of how they'refeeling.
But we're not trying to evokeany kind of emotion during the
session by asking questions, sothe client doesn't need to be
doing anything in order for itto work.
So, especially in the firstsession, like as we're actually
(12:53):
giving the feedback, it's notunusual for us to kind of just
sit there and have them justhang out and relax and see how
they're feeling.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
When you're giving them feedback, what are?
What exactly are youpinpointing at?
Are you going to be pinpointingcertain areas of the brain
where you're noticing moreactivity, or are you trying to
just kind of so that they'remore aware of how it's affecting
them with their brain, withtheir processing?
(13:25):
Or are you, um, just trying togive them a baseline, like, like
, how do you explain that to aclient?
Speaker 2 (13:36):
sure.
So with direct neurofeedback,we are just making sure that the
eeg is on properly and that thereading is clear and that the
feedback is going back properly.
So we're not diagnosing basedon what we're seeing and the
placement is the same foreveryone.
So there's no, we're notlooking to see or doing any
(13:57):
mapping or QEEGs in order forthe process to work, which is
what makes direct neurofeedbackdifferent and actually, in my
opinion, makes it much easier totry, because you don't need to
jump through the hoops of havinga QEEG or having specific
monitoring done beforehand anddiagnosis done beforehand in
(14:19):
order for it to work.
Speaker 1 (14:24):
Okay, and so when clients are being more
introspective, if you will,during that time that they're in
session, now, do you noticethat a lot of clients will
openly just share things duringthe time that they're in session
(14:45):
?
That comes out just kind ofnaturally, like you know, if
they're feeling a certain way.
So like somebody, like kind ofgoing to an example you had used
earlier, somebody is veryhypervigilant, has high anxiety
is and just has maybe, like yousaid, a higher heart rate,
things like that.
Do you notice that things willjust come out naturally when
(15:09):
they're getting monitored, or dopeople pretty much just kind of
, are they left to be moreintrospective, to just kind of
be aware of their feelings?
Speaker 2 (15:19):
It really depends on the client.
I mean, when we have clientscoming in who have, are
experiencing symptoms of anxietythat are like eight or nine out
of 10 and have been for years,when they feel like that starts
to drop down in the sympatheticnervous system relaxes, it can
be emotional for some of themand that's why we were always
(15:41):
sure to we always make sure thatthey have a therapist or a
clinician that they can go to toprocess those feelings.
So it's not unusual, as they,you know, come back down into
more homeostasis in theirnervous system, that things will
come up that they've kind ofbeen pushing aside, you know,
for many years in some casescases and the relaxation that
(16:10):
happens, is it just more becauseof just?
Speaker 1 (16:11):
is it because of the way that the structure is?
When you get, when a person isin the session because the
brainwaves you're getting thebrainwaves recorded, people are
just, they're left to sit andjust be present, they're left to
sit and just be present thatrelaxation that you talk about,
that happens is it somethingthat you find is like a natural
(16:34):
phenomena, with all that?
Speaker 2 (16:37):
It's?
The most common thing thatclients will experience is kind
of more of a relaxation feeling.
Some other clients will kind offeel more relaxed and alert.
They'll explain it as like acalm alertness.
And then there are some clientswho feel like a little bit
euphoric.
Speaker 1 (16:49):
Almost Everyone's just kind of different with how
their body responds as theirnervous system readjusts itself
and what have you noticed to bekind of like a theme that for
people who've in your experiencehaving done neurofeedback now
for 13 years um, what have younoticed to be like a common
(17:13):
theme amongst many clients?
What have you noticed to be, uh, something that really kind of
stands out?
Speaker 2 (17:21):
I think that a lot of our clients have become really
used to living life with adysregulated nervous system and
they forget what it can feellike to feel more balance, to
not be at those eights and ninesout of tens, whether it be
symptoms of anxiety or symptomsof depression.
Symptoms of anxiety or symptomsof depression.
(17:47):
And so it's pretty common forclients to say like I haven't
felt like this in years, or Ididn't realize how off kilter I
was for so long because I justbecame so accustomed to living
that way.
And it's really what makes thethe work very meaningful to us.
It kind of gives it gives theclient an ability to feel more
(18:09):
balanced in their life, wherethey're able to access more and
what they're doing in theirday-to-day and how they're
feeling in their day-to-day andwhat's that realization like for
people?
Speaker 1 (18:21):
like how?
How do people know, then?
Like, how are they able to?
You know you're getting thisfeedback, you're, you know
people are getting the feedback.
How are they able to just kindof come to this realization that
they've been off kilter for somany years that they've never
felt a certain way like thisbefore?
Or if they have, it's been areally long time so that they
(18:42):
don't remember even the lasttime, right, you know?
How is it that they're able toactually come to this
realization of that?
You know what happens in thebody with this process, I guess
would be.
My question is what happensduring this process in the body
that causes this relaxation?
Speaker 2 (19:00):
causes this relaxation?
Yeah, so, as the as the brainreadjusts and gets back to, you
know, gets back to neuronalpathways that it hasn't used in
sometimes many, many years, evendecades, I think that what
(19:24):
stands out the most of theclient is that they're able to
do their day-to-day taskswithout so much noise, whether
that be like rumination in thehead or feeling so much stress
in order to do basic tasks.
So with some clients, you know,we, what we'll do is we'll
focus on just, you know, how wasit getting home from the
appointment?
You know, and they'll get homeand they'll be like wow, it's
(19:45):
been a decade since I haven'thonked my horn on the way home
or felt angst while driving inLA traffic.
Or with our kids who are comingin for ADD, ADHD symptoms, just
the parents being able to seethat they were able to sit, you
know, for 20 minutes andcomplete a task without having
(20:05):
to get up five times.
Or for our clients who aresuffering from PTSD, you know,
being able to walk their dog andnot jump when they hear a door
slam or someone hits theirbrakes.
So it's just the little thingsin day-to-day seem to be less
(20:25):
triggering and easier for themto just live their life without
being feeling like they're onedge all the time, able to be
more present and enjoying lifeand this is all due to strictly
(20:48):
just once again, just havingthat being still moments.
Speaker 1 (20:53):
It seems like that just having that ability to just
be still having that monitoring, just alone it seems to
activate different parts of thebrain naturally.
Yes, that's really amazing.
(21:14):
And what would be the sciencethen behind that?
Because there's no electricalstimulation, it's just
brainwaves being monitored.
What would be the sciencebehind how other parts of the
brain get activated?
Speaker 2 (21:29):
So there is the feedback is a microcurrent that
is going through the sensors.
So the sensors are readingbrainwaves, it's going through
the EEG in the system and it'ssending back a microcurrent
signal that's customized to theclient, that allows those
dysfunctional neuronal pathwaysto reset.
So that is where the feedbackis coming directly to the client
(21:52):
through the sensors.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
And do you notice that in you know, like you've
given the examples of?
Like you know, like the 10sessions with somebody on the
autism spectrum who would engagein rather self-injurious
behaviors during meltdowns, haveyou noticed that, like 10
sessions or about approximatelythat much would be all that you
(22:20):
know would be sufficient formost people, would be all that
you know would be sufficient formost people, or do you notice
that it just or does it varyamongst people?
But is it?
Speaker 2 (22:31):
rather short lived sessions Like it's not like a
long term thing.
So typically it's 15 to 25sessions total that are done
over a few months.
Mm hmm, With our clients on thespectrum that can be a longer
process.
Where it's ongoing, wherethey're coming in maybe every
other month for a session.
It doesn't stick as well incertain cases for them, but for
(22:57):
other clients it's typically twosessions a week for the first
three weeks.
So we get those thatreinforcement in for those first
six sessions and then, as theresults are enduring, you begin
to come in with more timebetween.
So by the time you're hittingthe 15 to 25 sessions, you're
coming in maybe once every sixweeks so so it's like um.
Speaker 1 (23:31):
So this is all very interesting.
This is something, I will behonest, I didn't know a whole
lot about um.
Where can people go to get moreresources and information and
training, perhaps aboutneurofeedback?
Speaker 2 (23:46):
Sure yeah.
Our websitelosangelesneurofeedbackcentercom
gives more information ingeneral For any clinicians that
are interested in potentiallyusing the technology and their
practice.
They can go toclaritydirectneurofeedbackcom
for more information and you canalso find a list of providers
(24:08):
near you onclaritydirectneurofeedbackcom.
Speaker 1 (24:13):
Are these lists of providers?
Now, is it all, throughout thecountry?
Speaker 2 (24:18):
It's pretty much North America.
So we have some providers inCanada and we have a couple of
providers in Mexico.
Speaker 1 (24:29):
Awesome, awesome.
What brought you to doing?
What got you into neurofeedback?
Speaker 2 (24:46):
family of physicians.
I studied biology in undergradand I thought I would go the
whole med school route, butbecame pretty disenchanted with
the idea after graduating ofgoing to more school, and so I
felt depressed.
I felt kind of lost.
I didn't know what to do withmyself.
I didn't want to go onantidepressants, and someone
recommended that I tryneurofeedback, and so I did and
(25:09):
I was really impressed.
It was the traditional kind ofneurofeedback, so it took about
eight or nine sessions before Ireally noticed a difference, but
I was really impressed at howit kind of helped me get back to
feeling like myself again andable to take the next steps, and
so I had no problem with goingto school for neurofeedback.
So that's what I did and therest is kind of history.
(25:31):
Me and neurofeedback found eachother.
It was great because I wantedto help people, I wanted to have
my own business and it was kindof just the perfect thing.
Speaker 1 (25:44):
How long did it take you to get the training for it
and everything, and what'd youhave to do to get trained for it
?
Speaker 2 (25:48):
Sure it took about a year.
I first studied at BrainStateTechnologies in Arizona
utilizing their equipment, andthen I studied in Los Angeles
specifically for directneurofeedback.
Speaker 1 (26:04):
Los Angeles specifically for direct
neurofeedback.
Well, thank you so much forthis very engaging and
educational topic.
And one thing if you could saysomething like, let's say, many
clinicians may be skeptical tothose out there listening to
this.
Some may be skeptical, some maybe thinking well, you know, if
(26:24):
there's medication and there'sEMDR, and there's hypnosis for
trauma, and there's CBT, dbt andall these other traditional
therapy techniques out there,you know how would you answer
somebody that would ask whyshould we care about
(26:45):
neurofeedback and to incorporateit?
Speaker 2 (26:49):
You know, it's just another option, another adjunct
therapy that can help in thewhole process.
All those things you listed areI've found to be very helpful
and my clients have found to bevery helpful.
I've found to be very helpfuland my clients have found to be
very helpful.
What's nice about the directneurofeedback is if it's going
to be helpful.
(27:09):
Typically the clients will feelthe difference in the first
couple of sessions, and so, witha more balanced nervous system,
often they're able to getfurther using those other
modalities you mentioned, andthey're able to access more when
they're more relaxed and notfeeling stuck in that
sympathetic or parasympatheticstate.
Speaker 1 (27:29):
Okay, well, thank you very much, and thank you so
much for clarifying that andexplaining to all of us what
that is, and this is definitelya topic I'm very interested in
and learning and growing from.
So thank you for imparting thisknowledge to us.
Now, meg, if people wanted tofind you and reach out to you,
(27:51):
perhaps for questions, to learnmore, to gain more information,
where can people find you?
Speaker 2 (27:57):
You can find me on our websites.
You can find me on our socials.
You can also just send an emailto info at Los Angeles
neurofeedbackcentercom or infoat claritydirectneurofeedbackcom
and you'll get me.
I'm happy to hear from anyoneor answer any questions anyone
might have.
Speaker 1 (28:18):
Well, thank you so much for being here today.
All your information, all Meg'sinformation, will be in the
show notes and, with that beingsaid, I want to thank Meg for
being here with us today andsharing such amazing knowledge
(28:41):
and interesting topics thateveryone, whether you're a
clinician who works in mentalhealth or not, can all benefit
and learn from.
Also, as we're wrapping up, Iwant to remind everyone that my
book Dropped in a Maze isavailable on Amazon and is being
(29:05):
sold by all major retailers.
As promised for those whopurchased my book and wrote a
review.
I've been reading the reviewsout loud on the podcast.
Been reading the reviews outloud on the podcast, so today's
(29:27):
review is from Octavio Rodriguez.
This book was a breath of freshair.
It's an incredible insight intothe world of those living with
autism.
As a therapist, I found thisbook so helpful for supporting
and treating folks with needsfor social and emotional
training.
Sonia had me cracking upthroughout the book with her
remarkable stories and wit.
This book was written socreatively by adding Sonia's
(29:51):
insight into what would havebeen helpful with certain skills
, tools and certain tool skillsbeen available to her at the
time.
Her at the time 10 out of 10would recommend for anyone
touched by autism or anyonelooking for a great personal
memoir parentheses my favoriteliterature genre and parentheses
.
Thank you, octavio.
Um and with that being said, um, you know, if you enjoyed
(30:17):
today's episode, pleasesubscribe, rate, review and
share with your family andfriends, and looking forward to
being back and sharing more withall of you next time, take care
.
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