July 10, 2025 • 63 mins
Trigger Warning: Suicide and SA was discussed.
What if everything we think we know about the Gen Z mental health crisis is incomplete? In this eye-opening conversation, suicide survivor, author, and mental health advocate Aly Vredenberg challenges conventional wisdom by revealing four interconnected factors driving declining mental health among young people: economics, isolation, environment, and meaning.
Aly shares her deeply personal journey, beginning with a suicide attempt at age 14 following sexual assault and severe bullying. After surviving this darkest moment, she dedicated herself to understanding mental health, only to face profound grief when her best friend died by suicide in 2020. Rather than retreating into her pain, Aly channeled it into researching the complex roots of our mental health epidemic, culminating in her book "Out of Focus."
Unlike many discussions that point to social media as the primary culprit, Aly presents compelling evidence that the crisis began in 2007 - before Instagram, TikTok, or Snapchat existed. She reveals startling statistics about Gen Z's economic disadvantages, the physiological impact of decreased access to nature, and how modern city design has systematically eliminated opportunities for human connection. The conversation dives deep into how these structural factors create conditions where meaninglessness and isolation flourish.
Most powerfully, Aly introduces prevention-based solutions that address root causes rather than symptoms. From universal healthcare with mental health parity to trauma-informed schools and national service programs, she outlines practical approaches that could transform mental wellbeing at a societal level. We also learn about her forthcoming nonprofit "The Belonging Lab" where people who struggle with mental health can come together and feel supported.
More information about Aly can be found at:
www.belonginglabsd.org
www.outoffocusbookcom
Instagram: @alyvredenburg
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Hello everyone and welcome to this week's episode
of On the Spectrum with Sonia, apodcast where we discuss autism
spectrum mental health andhighlight inspirational stories
to leave our audience feelingconnected, encouraged, loved,
supported, especially in a worldwhere people are made to feel
disconnected on a daily.
(00:22):
People are made to feeldisconnected on a daily.
Today we have a very specialguest, allie Vredenberg.
She is out of California andshe has a bachelor's degree in
sociology and a master's insocial innovation from the
University of San Diego.
She has written a book calledOut of Focus, where she talks
(00:44):
about Gen Z's mental health froma perspective that differs from
what people customarily thinkabout mental health, and to
discuss her book and to discussthose pillars of what she's
found in Gen Z mental health isAllie.
(01:04):
Allie, thank you so much forbeing here today.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
I'm so happy to be here.
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
So, allie, why don't you tell us a little bit about
you, your background?
Speaker 2 (01:21):
Yeah, yeah, I'm happy to speak on me.
I am, first of all, a Gen Z.
I'm a member of Gen Z and Irecently published my book out
of focus why Gen Z's mentalhealth crisis is more complex
than you think and I actually amlaunching my non-profit called
the Lab.
(01:41):
We have our launch party thismonth and I'm super excited
about it.
We have a 5K in August calledthe Stay 5K, and I'm basically
I've dedicated my life to tryingto solve this mental health
crisis in young people.
I personally am a suicidesurvivor.
When I was 14, I tried to takemy life and, by some miracle, my
(02:05):
mom found me and took me to thehospital and I survived.
I was given another chance andthat gave me a huge, huge
insight into the ways oursystems are failing young people
.
I am really lucky in that I'veovercome pretty much all of the
things I was struggling with.
But in 2020, my best frienddied from suicide and that
(02:31):
pretty much changed thetrajectory of my life.
I spent pretty much a year inbed like, unable to move.
I was just so crippled withgrief.
It was probably the hardesttime I've ever been through,
truly, and she was like so manyother people where she struggled
in silence and people didn'tknow how bad it was, until she
(02:53):
was gone and I was just startingmy master's program in social
innovation when she passed and Ihad gone into my master's
wanting to create a socialenterprise to help the mental
health crisis.
I've been passionate aboutmental health since I was a
little girl, I think because Ihad struggled for so long, but
(03:15):
really what ended up happeningwas I spent years getting my
master's just trying to educatemyself and why there's a mental
health crisis after her passing,and so that's what led me to
write my book, and now, finally,I'm using my master's degree to
start my social enterprise.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
Well, Allie, thank you for sharing your story with
us.
I know that must have been avery difficult thing, you know,
not only to have undergone, butthen also to be able to be to
share as well that vulnerability.
It seemed like when you were 14, you were in a very dark place
and, if you don't mind sharingwith us what was going on at
(04:01):
that time that drove you to thatplace very, very dark place.
Speaker 2 (04:09):
I was sexually assaulted and the boy that did
it decided he wanted to justabsolutely bully the heck out of
me.
I couldn't walk down the hallsof the school without being
coughed at, laughed at, made funof, being told I was a whore.
I mean, it was just awful.
And I went home every day and Itold my parents I need to leave
(04:30):
the school.
The school's awful.
They paid, you know, 20 grand ayear for me to be at that
school.
It's supposed to be the topschool in, you know, the whole
country.
I mean, it was a really big,great private school apparently.
But I was just tormented andfinally it came to a point where
I just felt like I don't belonghere, I shouldn't be here
(04:54):
anymore.
I'm, I don't have value.
I just felt so alone, so alone,and I didn't feel like I was
heard or seen, and so I feltlike I had no way out, which
obviously wasn't true at all.
And sitting here today, Icouldn't be more grateful that
I'm here.
Truly, I'm so grateful to behere and so grateful that my mom
(05:17):
found me, because I really dobelieve there is so much hope.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
There is so much hope and it's like pretty much
anyone you speak to who's asuicide survivor will say the
same thing and that they'regrateful they're here and that
they're grateful it didn't work.
So I can say that reallyhonestly and you're sharing your
story and you're sharing waysto help with the mental health
crisis for the youngergeneration, because your voice
is so valuable and you're soneeded and I'm grateful that you
(05:56):
never took your life.
Speaker 2 (05:59):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
Allie, so you see your best friend.
I know she unfortunately in2020 ended her life, did you?
Speaker 2 (06:14):
know what was going on.
At that time I did know she wasstruggling and I actually made
a song.
It's kind of funny.
I love music, I'm very artistic.
Creativity is one of the mostactually important ways to heal
(06:44):
when struggling with mentalhealth issues, i't you know, and
I wish you were here and so,like I in the friendship, really
wanted to sort of save herbecause I knew she was
struggling and unfortunately shelived very far from me.
She lived about three hoursaway.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
And so.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
I just I couldn't save her and it really hurt, and
of course it wasn't my job tosave her.
And looking back at it now Isee that really the system she
went to to get help did not helpher or give her the help she
truly needed, and so that alsofueled a lot of my anger towards
the system.
Speaker 1 (07:30):
You know.
It's really interesting thatyou talk about the systems
failing her, because I've beento therapists who are nothing
short of being a bully, right,and a lot of times therapists
and people don't say this enoughand as someone who'd been
bullied by professionals whoshould have been helping me but
made me feel like a less thanand made me feel worse, right, I
(07:53):
can just say that you know it'sso easy when you're on that
other side that you know it'slike.
You know it's like.
Are they speaking like foreveryone?
And are they, you know, am Ibeing targeted Because?
Are they speaking whateverybody in the world feels
(08:16):
about me now?
And am I really this horribleperson, person?
And I look at people who werestrong and stood up for
themselves and made a differenceand I feel like you know what
(08:37):
this?
It's so easy, especially thosewith PhDs.
Okay, you see this a lot.
I'm not judging the wholeprofession, but you see a lot of
them abuse their power and usetheir doctorate.
And abuse their power becausethey know they can get away with
it, because of the status,because they can call themselves
(08:57):
a doctor, because of the kindof prestige that people will
place on their title, thatpeople will place on their title
.
Speaker 2 (09:07):
Yeah, I'm really feeling.
I'm feeling what you're feelingright now.
It's so so many therapists.
I think there was this womanwho I interviewed who was a
therapist and I'm not sure ifthis is a completely accurate
statistic, but she was sayingabout 20 percent of therapists
(09:27):
account for 80 percent of thepositive outcomes which in other
words is sort of meaning likethere's 20 percent of therapists
are amazing and they help somany people and then the other
80 percent are doing harm.
And that's something that notenough of people are really
talking about, I think, becausein the profession, a lot of
(09:52):
people in these spaces reallywant to encourage people to get
care, because good care doesreally help people.
But the problem is is that somany of these professionals are
not actually continuing theirtraining.
They're not really.
A lot of them are burned out,which I'm sure you've heard of
(10:12):
the term empathy fatigue, but Ithink a lot of them are jaded.
They have empathy fatigue.
They're speaking to people allday long and thinking, oh, these
people are just, they'replaying the victim.
Oh, these people are justthey're playing the victim.
You know, they have thismindset coming in where they're
not truly having empathy orawareness over how much of an
impact they have on people.
And unfortunately, becausethere is such a shortage of
(10:41):
workers because obviously, asthe numbers keep going up, we're
going to need more and moreworkers it's unfortunate because
I think a lot of people aregoing in and being quickly
pushed through and not given thetraining and the tools they
need to be really goodtherapists as well, yeah
absolutely.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
And even for the training I could say thankfully,
absolutely.
And you know, even like for thetraining, I could say like
thankfully, I have the financialmeans to pay for the continuing
ed, but those are not cheap byany means.
Like, I will look at likeprices for even in-person
conferences, online stuff, andthey really do make you pinch
(11:25):
your wallet, you know, and it ishard and I understand about,
like, the empathy and theburnout, you know, because it is
hard, because you try your best, you know, you do your best,
you do what you can and I feellike, a lot of times too, you
know, it's like a double-edgedsword because, on one hand,
(11:47):
there are people who are trulytrying to help and truly trying
to make a difference, but, onthe other hand, they can only do
so much because they can't helpeverybody either.
Right, like nobody can helpeverybody, let's just put it
this way.
Right, if we think about theset large, like, for example, a
cardiologist is not going to beable to help somebody who has an
(12:10):
appendix rupture and hasappendicitis, because that's not
their specialty, right?
You think about, like you know,there's just people that you
know, you, you try your best andyou do your best and all you
want.
You know you'd put your goodfaith effort in and now I?
I absolutely love to learn.
I'm a nerd, so I enjoy going tolisten to Pessy and going to
(12:32):
these conferences, even online,to like learn more.
But yes, it is.
It is hard, it is.
It's not an easy job.
For sure.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
It's not for the faint of heart either, for sure
what sucks, too, is that, liketeachers, therapists are kind of
expected to do it for the goodof the world, and they're not
necessarily paid enough, and soa lot of therapists aren't
having like.
To have good mental health, youneed to meet your most basic
needs.
That's housing, safety, cleanwater, clean air, friendships,
(13:09):
community, etc.
And even therapists the peoplewho are trying to have help
people have good mental health.
I think a lot of them probablystruggle as well because they're
not having their basic needsmet if they're being, you know,
underpaid and struggling to payfor student debt and the likes
of it.
So it's hard.
It's like the people who are onthe front lines of this crisis
(13:31):
are also really burned out andstruggling themselves.
A lot of them.
Speaker 1 (13:36):
Yes, and a lot of times too, it depends on, like,
where people are working,because I feel like a lot of
times are working, because Ifeel like a lot of times, um,
the you know, depending on thestructure of the practice, it's
very much run like how friendswould describe working in a law
(13:58):
firm, right, where you have tobill a certain amount of hours,
you have to work a certainamount of hours.
Um, I had, you know, there wasa couple of places where I've
worked where it was customary,right, that you had to hit
certain benchmarks each week andif you didn't, you'd know about
(14:19):
it, right, if you didn't, youyou know, there'd be a
discussion about it.
They and a lot of it is goingto your point.
Yes, you know, people need tobe paid for their work, because
people need also to pay theirbills, keep up with the cost of
living and things like that.
(14:39):
But absolutely it's a verypoignant point you bring out
that people don't talk aboutenough.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
Truly, but I think that is one small thing I write
about in my book, but I will sayI believe there are four main
things causing the crisis, andI'd love to go into them.
Sure, I believe they'reeconomics, isolation,
environment and meaning.
Economics, isolation,environment and meaning.
(15:10):
And what's unique about gen zis that we grew up during one of
the worst recessions since thegreat depression, and so at the
height of the great recession,which was around 2011 to 2012,
that was when most gen Zers werestill children and nearly one
in four of us lived in poverty,and so that's higher than any
other rates of other generationslike millennials, gen X,
(15:33):
boomers at similar ages to us atthat time.
And what's crazy is, if youlook just a year later, in 2012,
almost 30 million Gen Zers sothat's nearly half of our
generation were living in lowincome households, and so that
means that millions of youngpeople basically stepped into
(15:55):
adulthood carrying childhoodtrauma, financial instability
and, just honestly, a deepuncertainty about our futures
deep uncertainty about ourfutures, and so a lot of us have
struggled economically andthat's been a huge hit on our
generation that a lot of peopledon't think about or consider,
and obviously I'm sure you knowthe data when people are growing
(16:17):
up in poverty.
They've done studies where, ifyou grow up in poverty, there's
like, let me think about whatthe data was.
I think it was 1.5 to threetimes more likely to experience
depression or anxiety.
Sure, these are high numbers.
So in my book I talk about howone of the biggest things we can
(16:42):
do to help this mental healthcrisis is help our economy, help
people who are struggling inpoverty.
Like that's one big way we cantruly help people is getting
people housing, getting people,you know, safe water, food,
cleaning our air, etc.
And so getting these basicneeds is kind of the first step
(17:05):
to helping the mental healthcrisis that I think a lot of
people don't think about.
And obviously in these circleswe're always told go to therapy,
take medication that's going tocure you, but it doesn't really
think about the underlying rootproblems that a lot of people
struggle with when they end upstruggling with depression and
(17:27):
anxiety, which are kind of themain things I talk about in my
book.
Speaker 1 (17:33):
Right, right, and definitely having those.
It goes back into kind of likethat Maslow's hierarchy of needs
.
Right, when the height wherethe highest level is
self-actualization.
But before you can even get toself-actualization you have to
have your basic needs met first,right?
So that's food, shelter,clothing, safety, right, your
(17:56):
basic levels need to be metfirst before you can progress up
to reach your highest level ofself.
Speaker 2 (18:03):
Exactly, and I love Maslow's hierarchy of needs.
That theory is just so, sorelevant, especially today, and
I think that's one thing thatGen Z just it makes us so
anxious and depressed becauseour parents are doing better
than us and will do better thanus.
We can't afford housing.
(18:25):
I mean, housing has gone up aninsane amount, but the wages
have not.
The cost of college has gone up, I think about 400%.
So when our parents could gooff and go and get their degree,
they weren't paying off$100,000 worth of student loans,
whereas we have crazy amountsof student loans.
Our parents were able to buy ahouse for fifty thousand dollars
(18:48):
in 1970 and now, you know, anaverage house, at least here in
san diego, is a million dollars.
So we would have to make over ahundred dollars an hour to be
able to afford the house ourparents were able to afford, you
know, for way less, and so thatalone is really really, really
stressful.
But then also the cost ofhealthcare has gone up, I think
(19:09):
200, 300%, and so when youcombine all of these things and
look at the way Gen Z is livingeconomically, we are just not in
a good place.
But the thing that'scomplicated is, if you look at
all the different factors,economics is obviously just one
of many things that's happeningfor Gen.
Speaker 1 (19:31):
Z.
Yes, and you know I definitelyhear this from my clients
because I do have clients goingoff to college this fall and
they did talk about the costsand you know that was some of
the that was the major decidingfactor of where they were going
to go to school is because ofwhat, what the costs are going
(19:54):
to be, of what what the costsare going to be and um, so I
mean it and that has been aconcern.
I know, like that was a concernbig time for some of my clients
.
They come in and we spend asession discussing how to um
like come up with the plan sothat you know, okay, by this you
have these applications in forscholarships.
(20:16):
You see, you know, discuss whatkind of other avenues you can
open up for scholarships,because some of them, because of
the way that their parents aremaking money, they didn't apply
necessarily for certainfinancial aid because they were
considered too rich for it,right?
So it was kind of like, okay,so we just worked on other plans
(20:37):
.
What other avenues can you openup?
You know, to get more, and sothat's one thing we used to come
up with is game plans on how todo that during sessions.
And you know, and definitelyeven in my time, though I
remember, because I'm I'm a 42,going on 43-year-old girl here
in August, but I still remember,like even college, I remember
(21:00):
that even it was expensive backwhen I was going to school.
You know, even people foundeven like, even with in-state
tuition, it was still right, itstill cost a pretty penny right,
but now, but that was oneconcern that people had, you
know, I remember, as I wasleaving college eventually,
(21:20):
because I graduated in 2004, inDecember.
But I remember talks are goingon back then were like, you know
, they, people were even sayingthis is not even going to be
sustainable in the future.
Speaker 2 (21:33):
Yeah, and it certainly isn't.
We're in the future and it'snot sustainable.
Yep, and it certainly isn't.
We're in the future and it'snot sustainable, but the other
thing I talk about, um onereally big thing, is the
loneliness epidemic oh,absolutely we're so lonely.
We are so lonely and the data ismixed on it but and there's
(21:54):
anywhere from 50 to 80% of Gen Zreports feeling persistently
lonely, so it's like at leasthalf my generation feels very
lonely, according to differentsurveys that they've put out,
and that's frightening.
But honestly, when you look atthe way we've structured our
cities, the way we've addressedcommunity and belonging, it
(22:17):
makes sense why it's happening.
Unfortunately, one thing Iwrite about is the way we built
our cities, and we built ourcities in a way that is
essentially a really powerfulway to make us lonely.
And I talk about how the momentwe started building our cities
(22:38):
for cars was the moment westarted disconnecting as a
society, because walkability andenvironment is just huge for
connection and belonging andcommunity and and so that's one
huge thing is that we are veryisolated and disconnected, and
it's ironic because we're themost connected we've ever been
(23:00):
online.
And so, yeah, I get angry,honestly, whenever older
generations want to chop it allup and say that the mental
health crisis is solely due tothe social media and the
internet.
I get mad about it because Ibelieve that the internet,
(23:22):
social media, video games, allof it it's a form of escapism,
and what's interesting is thatthe last pillar I talk about
meaning they find that whenpeople are on social media, it's
directly correlated to lowerperceived life purpose,
(23:42):
especially for adolescents, andso I don't believe that social
media is necessarily the rootcause, but I believe it's a
mirror to society and what'sbeen happening and it's a way
we've been escaping from thislack of purpose and meaning, and
so a lot of us sit there and webrain rot all day, but we don't
(24:03):
actually put ourselves outthere to have hobbies and find
community and meaning, and it'sjust much easier to stay on our
phones than it is to actually goout and form those
relationships and and purpose inlife.
Speaker 1 (24:19):
Hmm, because here's the thing, though, and I mean,
and I can understand, you know,like you know, I, I see where
you're coming from, but at thesame time, I really do believe
that the internet and socialmedia also play a role in
people's mental health.
Oh yeah, and you know, there isa thing like FOMO, what we call
(24:39):
FOMO fear of missing out.
It's a thing that drives manypeople to therapist's office and
are, you know, and people getso afraid of not being invited
or thinking everybody has itbetter than them, because they
see a picture.
And I'll tell you this, theamount of times I've had to say
(24:59):
don't compare your life tosomebody's social media post.
If I had a dollar for everytime I had to say that I could
be happily retired by now.
Right, because it is soprevalent, and you know, I think
that too.
You know well, definitely, youknow things change with time,
right, cars way, communitieschanged.
(25:21):
You know, things were evolvingwith economics and evolving with
times.
You know, and I think some ofthis loneliness factor too, I
think people get more lonelybecause there's more destruction
, right, these phones canprovide an outlet for
distraction, kind of like, goingto your point, what you're
saying about escape, you know,and because before, when older
(25:45):
generations are growing up, wedidn't have phones or internet.
We were forced to play outside,right, like that's what a lot
of people talk about as well asyou know, we were forced to go
ride bikes or go to the park, goto camps, you know many people,
their parents had a rule thatthey had to go outside and not
come back until a certain amountof time.
(26:05):
Right, and you know.
I think you know it's just whatit looks like, and even though,
yes, there was probably peoplewho were lonely back then, I
think perhaps what lonelinesslooked like for people in
different times of life changed.
Speaker 2 (26:25):
Yeah, I will say I'm sure you know who mother Teresa
is, absolutely.
She gave a speech in 1950.
That was about how lonelinessis one of the worst problems
ever and that was in 1950 andobviously the Beatles.
They wrote Eleanor Rigby, whichwas about loneliness.
I believe loneliness has beenaround for a long time.
(26:48):
I think now we feel it moreseverely and it's more impactful
and more people areexperiencing it because so many
of us are isolated in ourcommunities.
We've had a decline in thirdspaces, a lot of the places
where people used to go, likechurch or even in the workplace,
(27:09):
that a lot of people have, youknow, a social life within the
workplace.
A lot of that's happened withhow we've structured work, to be
more online, working from home,and then obviously, third
spaces, like church, and there'sbeen a huge uptick in coffee
shops.
I don't know if you notice inyour city, but they're like
popping up everywhere, I believe, to address the loneliness
(27:31):
epidemic.
A lot of people like to go toplaces like coffee shops and
libraries and things like thatfor that connection and I think
it is sort of like a pendulumsling that's slowly happening
and I know the makers ofEventbrite had even reported
there's been an uptick in eventsfor young people, like in speed
(27:53):
dating and yoga and retreatsand just social activities in
general for young people, and Ithink what's interesting is
obviously all of this technologyis still very new and I think
there's been this learning curveof like, okay, this is working.
This is not working because, ifyou think about it, technology
is this incredible tool, thisamazing tool, and the thing I
(28:15):
talk about is that if all ofsocial media and tiktok was just
science videos and cat videosand cute dogs, we wouldn't be
here.
But the thing is is that it'smirroring a culture that's
existed forever.
We've been sexist forever.
Sex has sold forever.
You know, diet culture has beenhuge forever.
(28:36):
I mean, you look at pictures inthe 1800s of corsets, of those
ads in the newspaper.
It's been here forever.
Now it's just everyone hasaccess to it.
Not everyone could buy thatmagazine back then, or you know,
etc.
But what I think is happeningis now we're learning.
Okay, we spend time all daylong looking at what you eat in
(28:59):
the day videos and people'sworkout routines and all these
people showing their plasticsurgery.
That's not good for us.
I think we've learned that andI think over time, we can use
social media as a reallyeffective tool and it is being
used as a tool, but I think overtime it's going to get better
(29:19):
and better.
At least, I'm hoping that's thecase I, obviously.
We see gen alpha and the ipadgeneration.
We think, oh my god, like we'reall doomed, but maybe there is
hope right, and it also startswith also being intentional.
Speaker 1 (29:37):
Right, and teaching people intentionality of when
they're going online, whenthey're going to, let's say,
they want to go and look atcertain social media posts.
Okay, can you be intentional onwhat your content is going to,
what content you want to focuson?
Because I actually read thisarticle somewhere.
Somewhere it said thatInstagram, for example, it's
(30:01):
becoming more content-based inthe sense of it's feeding you
what content it thinks you'regoing to be interested in, based
on your posts or based on whatyou like, right, and things like
that.
And so it's about you know,like anything right?
We talk about settingintentions for the day.
What is your intention when youget on social media?
(30:23):
And if you can get that claritybeforehand before going on
these platforms right, the lessyou allow it to consume, you
right, because when you set thatintentionality, you control it
instead of allowing that, givingit the other having it the
(30:43):
other way.
Speaker 2 (30:46):
Absolutely, I think, what's important to talk about
when we talk about the increasedrisk or the increased
depression, anxiety, suiciderates.
It started in 2007.
And if you look, social mediawas not a big thing back then.
I think Facebook and MySpacemight have just come out, but
Instagram, snapchat, all ofthose different really big
(31:09):
platforms were not out yet.
But if you look at the media ingeneral, which is my argument
in my book, it's the media, notsocial media.
I believe the way in which weinfluence people through the
media has been a huge impact onour generation.
And so you look at 2007,.
What happened in 2007?
(31:29):
Well, the great recessionstarted, but the Kardashians
launched.
Paris Hilton was super popular.
Hannah Montana was big backthen.
Those were the big thingsinfluencing young people and a
lot of people actually sayHannah Montana, that show was
basically the launch of modernday influencers.
And so that in itself isimportant to talk about is what
(31:54):
was popular when these ratesstarted going up and what was
the popular culture.
And you look, and it, it wasthose things.
And then, of course, it's whenyou put it all together with a
(32:18):
economic recession, of, I think,during the economic recession,
what was it?
It was like 10,000 deaths wentup that first year in suicide.
And so you look at, there issuch a relationship between
economics and mental health.
Speaker 1 (32:41):
Absolutely, because, you know, in 2008, that was when
you had that bubble bust, right, you know, you had the market
crisis.
You had, you know, the housing,that bubble burst in that too,
in that too, and then you knowyou had also reforms that grew
(33:01):
out of it, like the Dodd-FrankAct that came out subsequently
later.
Right, that you know.
Put stipulations on banks, putstipulations on financial
trading, put stipulations inplace.
You had, you know, definitely,you know.
(33:23):
Another thing is, too, you know,when you look at history, okay,
when the stock market crashedin 1929, right, you know you've
heard of there were suicidesthat happened even back then.
Right, you know you've heard of, there were suicides that
happened even back then.
(33:43):
Right, because it's like, youknow, because people don't know
how, you know to adjust ineconomic uncertainty, right,
there's a lot that happens wherethat people don't understand
(34:03):
that if something were to happen, how are they going to be
protected?
Right, and that's kind of athing that people like a lot of
times, you know.
You know an average person, youknow, and they're going with
their day to day, right, they'rethinking about just the here
and now.
Right, a lot of people don'tthink about what can happen if
something were to go awry rightand being vigilant in that sense
(34:28):
as well.
But yes, I mean, but I do seeyou know how economics and
mental health are very stronglycorrelated together, and I think
that's a very poignant pointthat people overlook more often
than not.
Speaker 2 (34:46):
What's also interesting is just environment
in general.
I have this experiment I tellpeople and I say I want you to
imagine two children born in thesame city same year, but one
grows up surrounded by parks andtrees, but the other person
grows up in a concrete jungleand there's just no parks, no
(35:07):
greenery for miles.
When you look at them asteenagers, which child do you
think is more likely to developa psychiatric disorder?
probably the one growing up inthe jungle concrete jungle,
right, yeah, so the the kidwithout nature access, uh, is
(35:29):
the one that grows up morelikely to develop a psychiatric
disorder.
And there was this study in denDenmark and they followed
nearly 1 million children over alongitudinal study and they
found that the kids that grew upwith the least access to green
space had a 55% higher risk ofdeveloping a psychiatric
(35:50):
disorder later in life 55%, wow.
And so just nature, access tonature is so important for
mental health, but it's onething we are just not building
into our society right now.
We're building our society forcars, for making money, and not
for meaning or connection orhealth.
Speaker 1 (36:14):
And you know it's interesting you say this because
I was watching this movie atthe Museum of Science and
Industry here in Chicago andthey were talking about cities
of the future and one of thethings they were talking about
is having more green city, whereyou are getting more power from
(36:34):
solar, having more greenery,having more parks, and they talk
about they featured Singapore alot on there, because Singapore
is a city, state country and it, you know.
They talk about the amount oftrees they built as a way
because the heat gets so muchthere, right, but they also have
(36:55):
certain systems in place, right, for it to function with.
You know, even despite theclimate, right, and it is, and I
can say as a runner here too,it is very healing to be in
nature, you know, just havingthe green, having fresh air,
(37:15):
being in the sunlight, being,you know, just breathing in air
from the outdoors, right, andit's so important to even have
all these elements.
And I think you know if we cango into a, you know when we're
looking ahead, using science toour advantage, right, using
(37:35):
these innovations to get moregreen cities right, and it's
going to take time, right,because change takes time, but I
really do.
And tech and use it for thebetter we can make things, more
(38:02):
we can actually start absolutelyto incorporate more greenery,
like what it said in that movie.
Speaker 2 (38:09):
What scares me is our current government is very pro
deregulation and taking awayenvironmental protections, and
I'm scared for the way ourcities are going to be built and
I'm scared about what'shappening currently in our
country, because some of thethings they discuss is oil
(38:33):
drilling, drill, baby drill isone thing that we hear and a lot
of that side of politics, andwe also have heard that they
want to do more deforestationand make it so that that is just
fine is to do moredeforestation, and there
(38:54):
obviously were a lot of fundingcuts to national parks, and
there's just things happeningright now that make me very
scared.
To be honest with you and, Ithink, a lot of people in Gen Z.
I know that 75% of us alone haveclimate anxiety and it's scary
to think that the people who arerunning our country right now
(39:16):
are essentially wanting to takeaway environmental protections.
It's frightening, and so thereare certain things I talk about
that I think we just really needto really hone in on and
advocate for in our politics,and a lot of people don't want
to think of mental health aspolitical, but it is.
(39:38):
It is deeply political becauseit shapes whether we're going to
get health care, whether ourcities are going to be protected
, whether we're going to haveregulations to protect our
environment and you know whetherwe're going to have a healthy
economy.
So that's important to eventhink about is who we're voting
(40:04):
for.
Yeah, but but diving into that,I do talk about solutions and I
talk about ways.
I think we can fix this and Ido think it's important to have
a positive outlook and to thinkabout ways we can all get
involved in ways we can fixwhat's happening truly.
Speaker 1 (40:26):
And where can people get a copy of this book out of
focus?
Speaker 2 (40:31):
It's on my website at out of focus bookcom.
Okay, it's on Amazon.
Speaker 1 (40:40):
What inspired you to write this book, what you know
was the driving force for you,that you decided that you needed
to put this all out.
Speaker 2 (40:50):
I, I would say, definitely losing my best friend
was.
Was that sparking point for me?
I had fully planned on justgraduating with my master's and
starting my business, which I'mactually launching.
In a few months I'm really tobe opening what I call the Stay
Cafe, which is all about suicideprevention and it's basically a
(41:15):
coffee shop where anyone cancome in anytime who's struggling
with their mental health, andthey will know that there's a
place for them and everyonethere is trained in peer support
and it will be a space thatwill have mental health
programming pretty much all daylong.
But it's not a medicalizedinstitution, it's just a place
(41:36):
where anyone can go and do work,meet with friends, go to events
and know that they belong.
Speaker 1 (41:44):
And the nonprofit that you're starting is it
mainly to promote for moremental health awareness
resources, mainly to promote?
Speaker 2 (41:54):
for more mental health awareness resources.
Yeah, I so I I got sidetrackedwriting the book and publishing
the book and really going all inon my activism, which now I'm
just doing through through mynonprofit anyways.
But during that year that Iwrote the book and the year
after that I have been doing allthis advocacy and going on
amazing podcasts like yours.
Speaker 1 (42:16):
I.
Speaker 2 (42:17):
I wasn't as focused on building the social
enterprise which I went to getmy master's for in the first
place, but I've been working onbuilding this, this business,
for a really long time.
In fact, I started having ideasfor it in undergrad when I was
getting my sociology degree andI've always known I wanted to
create a space for people toknow that they belong.
(42:38):
Because I didn't feel like Ibelonged as a little kid.
I didn't have a lot of friendsand I felt very lonely and I was
bullied and I never really feltlike I had a space in this
world, and so in a lot of waysI'm kind of building it for
myself world and so, in a lot ofways, I'm kind of building it
for myself.
Speaker 1 (43:01):
Yes, and it's such a powerful thing that you've done
in taking your pain and using itfor a purpose right, for the
greater good, and taking it tohelp others and give back.
And I can definitely empathizeand that's why I do what I do
with my podcast.
You know because, like you, Iwas very lonely.
I didn't have any friends withmy podcast.
You know because, like you, Iwas very lonely, I didn't have
any friends, bullied a lot, youknow, cried all the time, and I
also didn't feel like I belongedin this world either.
(43:21):
So I felt like you know whatyou know.
This is why, you know, I lovegiving back and you know,
whether it's through my book orthrough my, through this
platform, on my podcast, orthrough therapy and life
coaching, self-esteem coachingis to give back and allow people
to express themselves and feeland allow, you know, people to
(43:45):
hear their thoughts right andknow that it's a safe place.
Speaker 2 (43:52):
Yeah, I love that and it's amazing that you're doing
the same and I think a lot ofpeople who are neurodivergent
that grow up neurodivergent.
We just it is really hard tofeel like we fit in because our
systems aren't built for usthere aren't a lot of spaces for
us and there aren't a lot ofplaces where we can go and feel
like, oh wow, I belong here,people see me, and so that's
(44:15):
really what I'm trying to do andbuild is a place where you walk
into the stay cafe and you areseen and you belong and we love
you.
Speaker 1 (44:24):
That's a beautiful thing.
I also feel like going intothat too.
You know, one point, you knowthat I feel and I've been
teaching clients this as well ishow do you deal with somebody
who thinks differently than you?
Because you find, nowadays,with even the younger
generations, how do you have acivil conversation?
(44:45):
People don't know how to agreeto disagree anymore, right, and
I had to actually go and teach aclient.
I had to give them an example,right?
So I said, okay, let's saysomebody you meet thinks
differently about a topic thanyou do.
You know one way you start thatconversation.
(45:08):
The thing is, you're not goingto change anybody's mind if you
shove things down someone'sthroat and start name calling.
What you do is you first meetthem where they're at and then
ask them a question how longhave you been feeling this way?
What made you think this way?
Right?
And then maybe say somethingalong the lines of you know what
(45:30):
?
I have a little bit of adifferent take on it.
If you allow me, I'd like toshare what I think right, and do
it this way and have it be acivilized conversation, right, I
feel nowadays, you know, peopleare so quick, you know, and it
(45:51):
doesn't matter what side of theline you stand on, but people in
general we're just sayinghumans in general here are so
quick to tear one another downand I feel like that.
You know, and this is somethingthat also, in my opinion, can
lead to even more loneliness,because you know, how do you
(46:12):
then express yourself in a roomof people that don't think like
you without feeling like you'regoing to be outed and ganged up
on right?
So this is another topic andanother point that I see a lot
of with loneliness, especiallywith the younger generation.
Speaker 2 (46:30):
I write all about cancel culture in my book and I
was on a podcast a couple ofweeks ago called Love Joy Nation
, where I talk all about cancelculture.
Unfortunately, gen Z we arekind of famous for cancel
culture and what you're sayingis so important and I'm so glad
you brought it up, because weare such a generation that is so
(46:52):
judgmental.
We love to cancel people and wehate when people don't think
the way we do.
It's across the board and I'mnot sure what it is.
I think we were raised verydifferently.
We were raised a lot by tigerparents and we had a lot of over
parenting.
We had a lot of emotionalneglect too.
(47:15):
But I think I think there issomething in the Gen Z culture
that makes us very, very quick.
To just cancel people and treatpeople like they're disposable
is such a huge problem and I'veexperienced it in my own life, a
(47:36):
couple years ago with a groupof friends who didn't like my
partner and just decided tocancel me because of who I was
dating.
It's like there is this powerful, powerful cancel culture in Gen
Z, where we just we alienatepeople instead of giving them
the opportunity to learn andgrow, and it's especially
prevalent, unfortunately inliberal circles more than
(47:58):
conservative circles, and Ithink that's why a lot of people
end up drawn into conservatism,because they're not shooed away
and alienated and told thatthey're idiots and the worst
people ever because they didn'tknow some nuance.
Right, it's right.
And it's not fair to callsomebody an idiot for something
they maybe didn't know yeah, youknow and of course, in the
(48:19):
liberal circles, we're told, youknow, if you don't educate
yourself and spend hours a dayeducating yourself on some
really nuanced topic that a lotof people who go to school for
for years are still learningabout, you know, it's very, very
alienating and difficult forpeople to be on the in what I
believe to be the right side,and so I think it's huge what
(48:44):
you're talking about and I'mcurious what do you tell your
clients, like?
What do you say to them to helpthem kind of know it's okay for
people to disagree with you.
Speaker 1 (48:52):
Well, I discussed that we live in a pluralistic
society.
Well, part of living in apluralistic society is that idea
of people thinking differently,and this is what makes our
society beautiful is when peoplehave different trains of
thought.
(49:12):
Our society beautiful is whenpeople have different trains of
thought, because how would weever learn anything different if
we never allowed ourselves tosee different points of view?
If we're so stuck on having oneway of thinking and one side
only prevailing and saying myside is the right side and you
better think like me, and if youdon't, you're out.
How then do you reach morepeople?
(49:34):
Because, if anything, you'rejust going to turn people away.
And so my thing is thisSometimes we can learn when we
allow ourselves to understandwhere another person's coming
from.
This is what allows us to learnmore, this was what allows us
to grow, and learning to havecivil debates right is what
(50:00):
allows us to grow as humans,because we, in those civil
debates, we can hear viewpointsthat we didn't think of before.
And I'm not a confrontationalperson.
I'm really not.
I hate confrontation.
I try to avoid it like theplague.
But I'll tell you this I won'tshy away from a good debate if
(50:26):
it's something I feel passionateabout.
And one of the things I feelpassionate about is how is about
neurodivergence?
Actually about how people thinkabout women who are
neurodivergent and the way thatpeople put their positions on
those who are neurodivergent andthe way the media portrays
(50:49):
neurodivergence and certainshows portrays neurodivergence
and certain shows Okay, and Iactually will do this podcast
episode about what I think aboutall of this, you know.
But I will say in short thatthere are some things I
appreciate, but I also feel thatthere's a lot that's still
(51:09):
neglected.
I feel that, you know, when theyportray women on the spectrum,
there's a lot they don't, youknow, show about women.
They don't.
They don't show the fullspectrum of women.
They don't show like differentbackgrounds as much.
Or, you know, they only show acertain kind of person more than
(51:33):
others and they don't show whatit's like for, let's say,
somebody who's educated andbecame a doctor or became a
lawyer, became a therapist, or X, y, z, right, what, whatever
they became.
They don't show like that aboutthose kind of people who are on
(51:56):
the spectrum but yet, you know,are doing what everybody's
doing in daily life and peoplemay be overlooking them or just
thinking, oh, those people arejust weirdos or whatever.
Right, they're showing more ofthe people that maybe didn't
have those kinds ofcircumstances or, you know,
weren't pushed in a certain way.
You know what I'm saying.
(52:16):
Like they're just showingdifferent kinds of things.
Speaker 2 (52:21):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (52:22):
You know, and I feel like there's more work in that
area to be done.
And you know, and I mean, do Iappreciate what they're trying
to do Absolutely?
I do appreciate the promise,but I feel like they could do a
lot more.
Speaker 2 (52:38):
Absolutely, Absolutely Well.
I will say that in my book, theway I think we can solve this
crisis is through prevention.
I think we love to band-aid andsend people home with some
medication and say good luckwhen they're in crisis, but I
think what we really need to dois start looking at how we
(53:01):
prevent the crisis to begin with, and I talk about basically
it's transforming the conditionsthat make people unwell in the
first place, and so that couldlook like universal health care.
Unwell in the first place, andso that could look like
universal healthcare.
The United States is the onlyhigh income country in the world
that doesn't have some sort ofbasic healthcare, and so if we
(53:23):
create a universal healthcare,we need to make sure we
integrate mental health withtrue parity and not what we have
right now because it's not aparity.
I believe we need to starthaving trauma-informed schools
and stop using police officersand start putting in counselors
(53:44):
and mentors and art therapiststhat help kids feel seen and
creative and belong, and we knowthat access to care reduces
stigma and it improves illnessrates.
I think we need to start goingham with building green spaces
and walkability and making surethat cities are built to really
(54:06):
give people that mental wellnessand we know, based on the data,
that nature is a provenantidepressant and access to
environment is a public healthnecessity, especially when you
look at how much of animprovement it truly makes in
someone's life nets.
(54:36):
And universal basic income isone thing I think could be a
really, really important way wehelp people, and a lot of people
.
They don't love the idea of it.
I know that in conservativecircles or something called, I
think, like the freedom dividendor something like that, there
are different ways of looking atit, but the the idea is giving
people the access and theresources to live better lives
(55:00):
and have a sense of agency overour futures.
And and the other thing I talkabout is we need to make it free
to have go to college,especially for therapists and
medical professionals.
I think if you're going into aprofession that is service based
(55:20):
, helping people, you should nothave to pay for college.
I really believe that, and Italk about a national service
program, which was actuallysomething that Pete Buttigieg
talked about when he was runningfor president.
I think it's a fantastic idea.
I think a lot of people, whenthey graduate high school, they
have no idea what the hell theywant to do.
They have no idea, and it's areally cool idea to give high
(55:43):
school graduates the opportunityto go into some sort of service
program for two years.
They do something amazing forthe world.
They plant trees, they helppeople in crisis, they go help
USAID, whatever it is.
They do something amazing.
They get paid a stipend andthey have their living accounted
for, and then they can go tocollege for free after they do
(56:06):
their service.
That would be huge.
That would be a huge thing,especially for Gen Z.
Huge.
That would be a huge thing,especially for gen z, where a
lot of us we feel like we wedon't know what our purpose is
in life.
Giving kids the access to somesort of national service program
could be really amazing.
And then, of course, givingthem the opportunity to go to
college is just like a win-win,and so that's a big one I talked
(56:28):
about too about too.
Speaker 1 (56:30):
Hmm, you know, and it's, yeah, there's so much out
there, especially now, you know,for people and it's you know, I
think I can see how it can bevery kind of confounding than to
know what exactly you want todo, especially when there's a
lot of option.
I mean, in a way, it's a greatthing, right, that you have a
(56:52):
lot of options out there, but atthe same time, it can be
confounding to figure it andnavigate your way through that
maze of, oh okay, well, what doI want to do with my life?
What you know, and and here'sthe thing in beauty what I see
nowadays that you know wasn'tthere when I was growing up, is
(57:13):
the fact that people can getpaid for being an influencer.
Now, people can get paid forcreating content, right, people
who are, who have creativity andare artsy right, there are ways
for them to put out things andfor them to eventually get
monetized Right.
(57:35):
And so I feel like, yes, I meanit's you know, even though it
is, you know, confounding, butat the same time, you have a lot
of, you know, new opportunitiesthat have come through all the
all this as well.
Speaker 2 (57:50):
Yeah, I have a lot of hope and at the end of the day,
I advocate for people who hearme, see me, hear my story.
I advocate for one of the mostimportant things, which is to be
kind, and the definition ofkindness I use is the act of
making someone feel less alone,to make them feel seen.
And I really believe if everyperson in the world followed
(58:13):
that and actually truly werekind, we would live in so much
better of a world.
So it's free, it's in, it doesso so much good so you know
there's actually a saying inautism speaks.
Speaker 1 (58:29):
You know that I, you know I have a pen and also there
was a hat.
I had it said be kind.
And I feel like that's so.
You know it's so important.
I feel like you know what theworld would be a lot better of a
place if we knew how to be kindto one another, if we knew how
(58:52):
to just, you know, not just beso quick to judge, but rather
just try to understand.
More than judge is you knowwhat you know, learning how to.
(59:18):
You know think learning.
You know people learning how tothink for themselves.
Number one, right, and not be socarried away by wayward
influence.
Right will be huge, and thattoo.
And then, number two, you know,learning different ways, right,
looking at.
You know, learning to seethings different ways.
You know, like we talk abouttheory of mind, right, why.
You know, like we may notunderstand it ourselves, but
(59:41):
people have a reason for whythey behave how they behave, for
why they think how they think,right.
And so you know andunderstanding that teaching
those foundations at a young ageRight Would be huge, I think
being part of that.
But I'm so excited, you know,for your book for your nonprofit
(01:00:02):
.
You know, ali, if people wantedto reach out to you, where can
people find you?
Speaker 2 (01:00:09):
I think my website is good because it has my
Instagram and my.
My whole name is really hard tospell, but my Instagram is at
Ali Bradenburg and you can findme on.
My website is good because ithas my Instagram and my whole
name is really hard to spell,but my Instagram is at Allie
Bradenburg and you can find meon my website and contact me
through there, and I love tohear from people so genuinely.
If you're hearing me today,reach out to me.
I love to talk to people, Ilove to hear your story and I
(01:00:29):
just like to connect with peoplewho care about wanting to make
mental health better.
Speaker 1 (01:00:35):
Oh, you know that's a big passion of mine is making
mental health better and beingseen, you know, in a system like
you talk about, that, thatdesigned for people with
neurodivergence, one of mymissions is let's make it so
that neurodivergence can thriveRight, and so can thrive right.
(01:00:56):
And so you know, I reallysupport you, support your work.
I'm excited to hear more aboutyour nonprofit when things come
up.
You said that there was goingto be a 5k.
Is that there a date set forthat yet?
Speaker 2 (01:01:06):
Yes, so our launch party is July 26th and 5k.
This day party is July 26th andthe 5k, the stay 5k, is going
to be August 23rd and where isit going to be?
The stay 5k will be in SanDiego at the Lagoon at 2 o'clock
(01:01:26):
and you can find it on thewebsite, which is at the
belonging lab, sdorg at thebelonging lababsdorg.
Speaker 1 (01:01:35):
At the belonginglabsdorg.
Okay, all right, I'm going tohave all those links in the show
notes.
Speaker 2 (01:01:44):
So outoffocuscom is your website correct For your
book One of them.
I love making websites, but formy nonprofit it's the
belonginglabsd.
Speaker 1 (01:01:53):
Okay, but the belonginglab All right, great,
and with that, ali, thank you somuch for being here, thank you
so much for sharing yourvulnerability, thank you so much
for allowing us into your storyand allowing us to hear your
point of view and hear yourthoughts on things, because I
think that you know you'veprovided such amazing
(01:02:17):
information and a different wayfor people to start looking at
mental health that we you know,most people are ordinarily not
looking into, and I feel likethis is this has been a really
thought provoking conversationand I appreciate you sharing
your views on here.
Speaker 2 (01:02:37):
So happy to do so and so great to speak with you and
thank you for the work you do aswell.
Speaker 1 (01:02:42):
Well, thank you and folks, that's a wrap for this
episode of On the Spectrum withSonia.
Please remember to like,subscribe and share with your
friends and family if you enjoythis content.
Also, my book Dropped in a Mazeis available for purchase on
(01:03:04):
Amazon and is sold by major bookdistributors.
Also, while we're talking aboutbooks, please check out Allie
Vredenberg's book Out of Focus.
And with that, wishing you alla great day, thank you for
tuning in and speak with younext time.
Hello everyone and welcome to this week's episode
of On the Spectrum with Sonia, apodcast where we discuss autism
spectrum mental health andhighlight inspirational stories
to leave our audience feelingconnected, encouraged, loved,
supported, especially in a worldwhere people are made to feel
disconnected on a daily.
(00:22):
People are made to feeldisconnected on a daily.
Today we have a very specialguest, allie Vredenberg.
She is out of California andshe has a bachelor's degree in
sociology and a master's insocial innovation from the
University of San Diego.
She has written a book calledOut of Focus, where she talks
(00:44):
about Gen Z's mental health froma perspective that differs from
what people customarily thinkabout mental health, and to
discuss her book and to discussthose pillars of what she's
found in Gen Z mental health isAllie.
(01:04):
Allie, thank you so much forbeing here today.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
I'm so happy to be here.
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
So, allie, why don't you tell us a little bit about
you, your background?
Speaker 2 (01:21):
Yeah, yeah, I'm happy to speak on me.
I am, first of all, a Gen Z.
I'm a member of Gen Z and Irecently published my book out
of focus why Gen Z's mentalhealth crisis is more complex
than you think and I actually amlaunching my non-profit called
the Lab.
(01:41):
We have our launch party thismonth and I'm super excited
about it.
We have a 5K in August calledthe Stay 5K, and I'm basically
I've dedicated my life to tryingto solve this mental health
crisis in young people.
I personally am a suicidesurvivor.
When I was 14, I tried to takemy life and, by some miracle, my
(02:05):
mom found me and took me to thehospital and I survived.
I was given another chance andthat gave me a huge, huge
insight into the ways oursystems are failing young people
.
I am really lucky in that I'veovercome pretty much all of the
things I was struggling with.
But in 2020, my best frienddied from suicide and that
(02:31):
pretty much changed thetrajectory of my life.
I spent pretty much a year inbed like, unable to move.
I was just so crippled withgrief.
It was probably the hardesttime I've ever been through,
truly, and she was like so manyother people where she struggled
in silence and people didn'tknow how bad it was, until she
(02:53):
was gone and I was just startingmy master's program in social
innovation when she passed and Ihad gone into my master's
wanting to create a socialenterprise to help the mental
health crisis.
I've been passionate aboutmental health since I was a
little girl, I think because Ihad struggled for so long, but
(03:15):
really what ended up happeningwas I spent years getting my
master's just trying to educatemyself and why there's a mental
health crisis after her passing,and so that's what led me to
write my book, and now, finally,I'm using my master's degree to
start my social enterprise.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
Well, Allie, thank you for sharing your story with
us.
I know that must have been avery difficult thing, you know,
not only to have undergone, butthen also to be able to be to
share as well that vulnerability.
It seemed like when you were 14, you were in a very dark place
and, if you don't mind sharingwith us what was going on at
(04:01):
that time that drove you to thatplace very, very dark place.
Speaker 2 (04:09):
I was sexually assaulted and the boy that did
it decided he wanted to justabsolutely bully the heck out of
me.
I couldn't walk down the hallsof the school without being
coughed at, laughed at, made funof, being told I was a whore.
I mean, it was just awful.
And I went home every day and Itold my parents I need to leave
(04:30):
the school.
The school's awful.
They paid, you know, 20 grand ayear for me to be at that
school.
It's supposed to be the topschool in, you know, the whole
country.
I mean, it was a really big,great private school apparently.
But I was just tormented andfinally it came to a point where
I just felt like I don't belonghere, I shouldn't be here
(04:54):
anymore.
I'm, I don't have value.
I just felt so alone, so alone,and I didn't feel like I was
heard or seen, and so I feltlike I had no way out, which
obviously wasn't true at all.
And sitting here today, Icouldn't be more grateful that
I'm here.
Truly, I'm so grateful to behere and so grateful that my mom
(05:17):
found me, because I really dobelieve there is so much hope.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
There is so much hope and it's like pretty much
anyone you speak to who's asuicide survivor will say the
same thing and that they'regrateful they're here and that
they're grateful it didn't work.
So I can say that reallyhonestly and you're sharing your
story and you're sharing waysto help with the mental health
crisis for the youngergeneration, because your voice
is so valuable and you're soneeded and I'm grateful that you
(05:56):
never took your life.
Speaker 2 (05:59):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
Allie, so you see your best friend.
I know she unfortunately in2020 ended her life, did you?
Speaker 2 (06:14):
know what was going on.
At that time I did know she wasstruggling and I actually made
a song.
It's kind of funny.
I love music, I'm very artistic.
Creativity is one of the mostactually important ways to heal
(06:44):
when struggling with mentalhealth issues, i't you know, and
I wish you were here and so,like I in the friendship, really
wanted to sort of save herbecause I knew she was
struggling and unfortunately shelived very far from me.
She lived about three hoursaway.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
And so.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
I just I couldn't save her and it really hurt, and
of course it wasn't my job tosave her.
And looking back at it now Isee that really the system she
went to to get help did not helpher or give her the help she
truly needed, and so that alsofueled a lot of my anger towards
the system.
Speaker 1 (07:30):
You know.
It's really interesting thatyou talk about the systems
failing her, because I've beento therapists who are nothing
short of being a bully, right,and a lot of times therapists
and people don't say this enoughand as someone who'd been
bullied by professionals whoshould have been helping me but
made me feel like a less thanand made me feel worse, right, I
(07:53):
can just say that you know it'sso easy when you're on that
other side that you know it'slike.
You know it's like.
Are they speaking like foreveryone?
And are they, you know, am Ibeing targeted Because?
Are they speaking whateverybody in the world feels
(08:16):
about me now?
And am I really this horribleperson, person?
And I look at people who werestrong and stood up for
themselves and made a differenceand I feel like you know what
(08:37):
this?
It's so easy, especially thosewith PhDs.
Okay, you see this a lot.
I'm not judging the wholeprofession, but you see a lot of
them abuse their power and usetheir doctorate.
And abuse their power becausethey know they can get away with
it, because of the status,because they can call themselves
(08:57):
a doctor, because of the kindof prestige that people will
place on their title, thatpeople will place on their title
.
Speaker 2 (09:07):
Yeah, I'm really feeling.
I'm feeling what you're feelingright now.
It's so so many therapists.
I think there was this womanwho I interviewed who was a
therapist and I'm not sure ifthis is a completely accurate
statistic, but she was sayingabout 20 percent of therapists
(09:27):
account for 80 percent of thepositive outcomes which in other
words is sort of meaning likethere's 20 percent of therapists
are amazing and they help somany people and then the other
80 percent are doing harm.
And that's something that notenough of people are really
talking about, I think, becausein the profession, a lot of
(09:52):
people in these spaces reallywant to encourage people to get
care, because good care doesreally help people.
But the problem is is that somany of these professionals are
not actually continuing theirtraining.
They're not really.
A lot of them are burned out,which I'm sure you've heard of
(10:12):
the term empathy fatigue, but Ithink a lot of them are jaded.
They have empathy fatigue.
They're speaking to people allday long and thinking, oh, these
people are just, they'replaying the victim.
Oh, these people are justthey're playing the victim.
You know, they have thismindset coming in where they're
not truly having empathy orawareness over how much of an
impact they have on people.
And unfortunately, becausethere is such a shortage of
(10:41):
workers because obviously, asthe numbers keep going up, we're
going to need more and moreworkers it's unfortunate because
I think a lot of people aregoing in and being quickly
pushed through and not given thetraining and the tools they
need to be really goodtherapists as well, yeah
absolutely.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
And even for the training I could say thankfully,
absolutely.
And you know, even like for thetraining, I could say like
thankfully, I have the financialmeans to pay for the continuing
ed, but those are not cheap byany means.
Like, I will look at likeprices for even in-person
conferences, online stuff, andthey really do make you pinch
(11:25):
your wallet, you know, and it ishard and I understand about,
like, the empathy and theburnout, you know, because it is
hard, because you try your best, you know, you do your best,
you do what you can and I feellike, a lot of times too, you
know, it's like a double-edgedsword because, on one hand,
(11:47):
there are people who are trulytrying to help and truly trying
to make a difference, but, onthe other hand, they can only do
so much because they can't helpeverybody either.
Right, like nobody can helpeverybody, let's just put it
this way.
Right, if we think about theset large, like, for example, a
cardiologist is not going to beable to help somebody who has an
(12:10):
appendix rupture and hasappendicitis, because that's not
their specialty, right?
You think about, like you know,there's just people that you
know, you, you try your best andyou do your best and all you
want.
You know you'd put your goodfaith effort in and now I?
I absolutely love to learn.
I'm a nerd, so I enjoy going tolisten to Pessy and going to
(12:32):
these conferences, even online,to like learn more.
But yes, it is.
It is hard, it is.
It's not an easy job.
For sure.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
It's not for the faint of heart either, for sure
what sucks, too, is that, liketeachers, therapists are kind of
expected to do it for the goodof the world, and they're not
necessarily paid enough, and soa lot of therapists aren't
having like.
To have good mental health, youneed to meet your most basic
needs.
That's housing, safety, cleanwater, clean air, friendships,
(13:09):
community, etc.
And even therapists the peoplewho are trying to have help
people have good mental health.
I think a lot of them probablystruggle as well because they're
not having their basic needsmet if they're being, you know,
underpaid and struggling to payfor student debt and the likes
of it.
So it's hard.
It's like the people who are onthe front lines of this crisis
(13:31):
are also really burned out andstruggling themselves.
A lot of them.
Speaker 1 (13:36):
Yes, and a lot of times too, it depends on, like,
where people are working,because I feel like a lot of
times are working, because Ifeel like a lot of times, um,
the you know, depending on thestructure of the practice, it's
very much run like how friendswould describe working in a law
(13:58):
firm, right, where you have tobill a certain amount of hours,
you have to work a certainamount of hours.
Um, I had, you know, there wasa couple of places where I've
worked where it was customary,right, that you had to hit
certain benchmarks each week andif you didn't, you'd know about
(14:19):
it, right, if you didn't, youyou know, there'd be a
discussion about it.
They and a lot of it is goingto your point.
Yes, you know, people need tobe paid for their work, because
people need also to pay theirbills, keep up with the cost of
living and things like that.
(14:39):
But absolutely it's a verypoignant point you bring out
that people don't talk aboutenough.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
Truly, but I think that is one small thing I write
about in my book, but I will sayI believe there are four main
things causing the crisis, andI'd love to go into them.
Sure, I believe they'reeconomics, isolation,
environment and meaning.
Economics, isolation,environment and meaning.
(15:10):
And what's unique about gen zis that we grew up during one of
the worst recessions since thegreat depression, and so at the
height of the great recession,which was around 2011 to 2012,
that was when most gen Zers werestill children and nearly one
in four of us lived in poverty,and so that's higher than any
other rates of other generationslike millennials, gen X,
(15:33):
boomers at similar ages to us atthat time.
And what's crazy is, if youlook just a year later, in 2012,
almost 30 million Gen Zers sothat's nearly half of our
generation were living in lowincome households, and so that
means that millions of youngpeople basically stepped into
(15:55):
adulthood carrying childhoodtrauma, financial instability
and, just honestly, a deepuncertainty about our futures
deep uncertainty about ourfutures, and so a lot of us have
struggled economically andthat's been a huge hit on our
generation that a lot of peopledon't think about or consider,
and obviously I'm sure you knowthe data when people are growing
(16:17):
up in poverty.
They've done studies where, ifyou grow up in poverty, there's
like, let me think about whatthe data was.
I think it was 1.5 to threetimes more likely to experience
depression or anxiety.
Sure, these are high numbers.
So in my book I talk about howone of the biggest things we can
(16:42):
do to help this mental healthcrisis is help our economy, help
people who are struggling inpoverty.
Like that's one big way we cantruly help people is getting
people housing, getting people,you know, safe water, food,
cleaning our air, etc.
And so getting these basicneeds is kind of the first step
(17:05):
to helping the mental healthcrisis that I think a lot of
people don't think about.
And obviously in these circleswe're always told go to therapy,
take medication that's going tocure you, but it doesn't really
think about the underlying rootproblems that a lot of people
struggle with when they end upstruggling with depression and
(17:27):
anxiety, which are kind of themain things I talk about in my
book.
Speaker 1 (17:33):
Right, right, and definitely having those.
It goes back into kind of likethat Maslow's hierarchy of needs
.
Right, when the height wherethe highest level is
self-actualization.
But before you can even get toself-actualization you have to
have your basic needs met first,right?
So that's food, shelter,clothing, safety, right, your
(17:56):
basic levels need to be metfirst before you can progress up
to reach your highest level ofself.
Speaker 2 (18:03):
Exactly, and I love Maslow's hierarchy of needs.
That theory is just so, sorelevant, especially today, and
I think that's one thing thatGen Z just it makes us so
anxious and depressed becauseour parents are doing better
than us and will do better thanus.
We can't afford housing.
(18:25):
I mean, housing has gone up aninsane amount, but the wages
have not.
The cost of college has gone up, I think about 400%.
So when our parents could gooff and go and get their degree,
they weren't paying off$100,000 worth of student loans,
whereas we have crazy amountsof student loans.
Our parents were able to buy ahouse for fifty thousand dollars
(18:48):
in 1970 and now, you know, anaverage house, at least here in
san diego, is a million dollars.
So we would have to make over ahundred dollars an hour to be
able to afford the house ourparents were able to afford, you
know, for way less, and so thatalone is really really, really
stressful.
But then also the cost ofhealthcare has gone up, I think
(19:09):
200, 300%, and so when youcombine all of these things and
look at the way Gen Z is livingeconomically, we are just not in
a good place.
But the thing that'scomplicated is, if you look at
all the different factors,economics is obviously just one
of many things that's happeningfor Gen.
Speaker 1 (19:31):
Z.
Yes, and you know I definitelyhear this from my clients
because I do have clients goingoff to college this fall and
they did talk about the costsand you know that was some of
the that was the major decidingfactor of where they were going
to go to school is because ofwhat, what the costs are going
(19:54):
to be, of what what the costsare going to be and um, so I
mean it and that has been aconcern.
I know, like that was a concernbig time for some of my clients
.
They come in and we spend asession discussing how to um
like come up with the plan sothat you know, okay, by this you
have these applications in forscholarships.
(20:16):
You see, you know, discuss whatkind of other avenues you can
open up for scholarships,because some of them, because of
the way that their parents aremaking money, they didn't apply
necessarily for certainfinancial aid because they were
considered too rich for it,right?
So it was kind of like, okay,so we just worked on other plans
(20:37):
.
What other avenues can you openup?
You know, to get more, and sothat's one thing we used to come
up with is game plans on how todo that during sessions.
And you know, and definitelyeven in my time, though I
remember, because I'm I'm a 42,going on 43-year-old girl here
in August, but I still remember,like even college, I remember
(21:00):
that even it was expensive backwhen I was going to school.
You know, even people foundeven like, even with in-state
tuition, it was still right, itstill cost a pretty penny right,
but now, but that was oneconcern that people had, you
know, I remember, as I wasleaving college eventually,
(21:20):
because I graduated in 2004, inDecember.
But I remember talks are goingon back then were like, you know
, they, people were even sayingthis is not even going to be
sustainable in the future.
Speaker 2 (21:33):
Yeah, and it certainly isn't.
We're in the future and it'snot sustainable.
Yep, and it certainly isn't.
We're in the future and it'snot sustainable, but the other
thing I talk about, um onereally big thing, is the
loneliness epidemic oh,absolutely we're so lonely.
We are so lonely and the data ismixed on it but and there's
(21:54):
anywhere from 50 to 80% of Gen Zreports feeling persistently
lonely, so it's like at leasthalf my generation feels very
lonely, according to differentsurveys that they've put out,
and that's frightening.
But honestly, when you look atthe way we've structured our
cities, the way we've addressedcommunity and belonging, it
(22:17):
makes sense why it's happening.
Unfortunately, one thing Iwrite about is the way we built
our cities, and we built ourcities in a way that is
essentially a really powerfulway to make us lonely.
And I talk about how the momentwe started building our cities
(22:38):
for cars was the moment westarted disconnecting as a
society, because walkability andenvironment is just huge for
connection and belonging andcommunity and and so that's one
huge thing is that we are veryisolated and disconnected, and
it's ironic because we're themost connected we've ever been
(23:00):
online.
And so, yeah, I get angry,honestly, whenever older
generations want to chop it allup and say that the mental
health crisis is solely due tothe social media and the
internet.
I get mad about it because Ibelieve that the internet,
(23:22):
social media, video games, allof it it's a form of escapism,
and what's interesting is thatthe last pillar I talk about
meaning they find that whenpeople are on social media, it's
directly correlated to lowerperceived life purpose,
(23:42):
especially for adolescents, andso I don't believe that social
media is necessarily the rootcause, but I believe it's a
mirror to society and what'sbeen happening and it's a way
we've been escaping from thislack of purpose and meaning, and
so a lot of us sit there and webrain rot all day, but we don't
(24:03):
actually put ourselves outthere to have hobbies and find
community and meaning, and it'sjust much easier to stay on our
phones than it is to actually goout and form those
relationships and and purpose inlife.
Speaker 1 (24:19):
Hmm, because here's the thing, though, and I mean,
and I can understand, you know,like you know, I, I see where
you're coming from, but at thesame time, I really do believe
that the internet and socialmedia also play a role in
people's mental health.
Oh yeah, and you know, there isa thing like FOMO, what we call
(24:39):
FOMO fear of missing out.
It's a thing that drives manypeople to therapist's office and
are, you know, and people getso afraid of not being invited
or thinking everybody has itbetter than them, because they
see a picture.
And I'll tell you this, theamount of times I've had to say
(24:59):
don't compare your life tosomebody's social media post.
If I had a dollar for everytime I had to say that I could
be happily retired by now.
Right, because it is soprevalent, and you know, I think
that too.
You know well, definitely, youknow things change with time,
right, cars way, communitieschanged.
(25:21):
You know, things were evolvingwith economics and evolving with
times.
You know, and I think some ofthis loneliness factor too, I
think people get more lonelybecause there's more destruction
, right, these phones canprovide an outlet for
distraction, kind of like, goingto your point, what you're
saying about escape, you know,and because before, when older
(25:45):
generations are growing up, wedidn't have phones or internet.
We were forced to play outside,right, like that's what a lot
of people talk about as well asyou know, we were forced to go
ride bikes or go to the park, goto camps, you know many people,
their parents had a rule thatthey had to go outside and not
come back until a certain amountof time.
(26:05):
Right, and you know.
I think you know it's just whatit looks like, and even though,
yes, there was probably peoplewho were lonely back then, I
think perhaps what lonelinesslooked like for people in
different times of life changed.
Speaker 2 (26:25):
Yeah, I will say I'm sure you know who mother Teresa
is, absolutely.
She gave a speech in 1950.
That was about how lonelinessis one of the worst problems
ever and that was in 1950 andobviously the Beatles.
They wrote Eleanor Rigby, whichwas about loneliness.
I believe loneliness has beenaround for a long time.
(26:48):
I think now we feel it moreseverely and it's more impactful
and more people areexperiencing it because so many
of us are isolated in ourcommunities.
We've had a decline in thirdspaces, a lot of the places
where people used to go, likechurch or even in the workplace,
(27:09):
that a lot of people have, youknow, a social life within the
workplace.
A lot of that's happened withhow we've structured work, to be
more online, working from home,and then obviously, third
spaces, like church, and there'sbeen a huge uptick in coffee
shops.
I don't know if you notice inyour city, but they're like
popping up everywhere, I believe, to address the loneliness
(27:31):
epidemic.
A lot of people like to go toplaces like coffee shops and
libraries and things like thatfor that connection and I think
it is sort of like a pendulumsling that's slowly happening
and I know the makers ofEventbrite had even reported
there's been an uptick in eventsfor young people, like in speed
(27:53):
dating and yoga and retreatsand just social activities in
general for young people, and Ithink what's interesting is
obviously all of this technologyis still very new and I think
there's been this learning curveof like, okay, this is working.
This is not working because, ifyou think about it, technology
is this incredible tool, thisamazing tool, and the thing I
(28:15):
talk about is that if all ofsocial media and tiktok was just
science videos and cat videosand cute dogs, we wouldn't be
here.
But the thing is is that it'smirroring a culture that's
existed forever.
We've been sexist forever.
Sex has sold forever.
You know, diet culture has beenhuge forever.
(28:36):
I mean, you look at pictures inthe 1800s of corsets, of those
ads in the newspaper.
It's been here forever.
Now it's just everyone hasaccess to it.
Not everyone could buy thatmagazine back then, or you know,
etc.
But what I think is happeningis now we're learning.
Okay, we spend time all daylong looking at what you eat in
(28:59):
the day videos and people'sworkout routines and all these
people showing their plasticsurgery.
That's not good for us.
I think we've learned that andI think over time, we can use
social media as a reallyeffective tool and it is being
used as a tool, but I think overtime it's going to get better
(29:19):
and better.
At least, I'm hoping that's thecase I, obviously.
We see gen alpha and the ipadgeneration.
We think, oh my god, like we'reall doomed, but maybe there is
hope right, and it also startswith also being intentional.
Speaker 1 (29:37):
Right, and teaching people intentionality of when
they're going online, whenthey're going to, let's say,
they want to go and look atcertain social media posts.
Okay, can you be intentional onwhat your content is going to,
what content you want to focuson?
Because I actually read thisarticle somewhere.
Somewhere it said thatInstagram, for example, it's
(30:01):
becoming more content-based inthe sense of it's feeding you
what content it thinks you'regoing to be interested in, based
on your posts or based on whatyou like, right, and things like
that.
And so it's about you know,like anything right?
We talk about settingintentions for the day.
What is your intention when youget on social media?
(30:23):
And if you can get that claritybeforehand before going on
these platforms right, the lessyou allow it to consume, you
right, because when you set thatintentionality, you control it
instead of allowing that, givingit the other having it the
(30:43):
other way.
Speaker 2 (30:46):
Absolutely, I think, what's important to talk about
when we talk about the increasedrisk or the increased
depression, anxiety, suiciderates.
It started in 2007.
And if you look, social mediawas not a big thing back then.
I think Facebook and MySpacemight have just come out, but
Instagram, snapchat, all ofthose different really big
(31:09):
platforms were not out yet.
But if you look at the media ingeneral, which is my argument
in my book, it's the media, notsocial media.
I believe the way in which weinfluence people through the
media has been a huge impact onour generation.
And so you look at 2007,.
What happened in 2007?
(31:29):
Well, the great recessionstarted, but the Kardashians
launched.
Paris Hilton was super popular.
Hannah Montana was big backthen.
Those were the big thingsinfluencing young people and a
lot of people actually sayHannah Montana, that show was
basically the launch of modernday influencers.
And so that in itself isimportant to talk about is what
(31:54):
was popular when these ratesstarted going up and what was
the popular culture.
And you look, and it, it wasthose things.
And then, of course, it's whenyou put it all together with a
(32:18):
economic recession, of, I think,during the economic recession,
what was it?
It was like 10,000 deaths wentup that first year in suicide.
And so you look at, there issuch a relationship between
economics and mental health.
Speaker 1 (32:41):
Absolutely, because, you know, in 2008, that was when
you had that bubble bust, right, you know, you had the market
crisis.
You had, you know, the housing,that bubble burst in that too,
in that too, and then you knowyou had also reforms that grew
(33:01):
out of it, like the Dodd-FrankAct that came out subsequently
later.
Right, that you know.
Put stipulations on banks, putstipulations on financial
trading, put stipulations inplace.
You had, you know, definitely,you know.
(33:23):
Another thing is, too, you know,when you look at history, okay,
when the stock market crashedin 1929, right, you know you've
heard of there were suicidesthat happened even back then.
Right, you know you've heard of, there were suicides that
happened even back then.
(33:43):
Right, because it's like, youknow, because people don't know
how, you know to adjust ineconomic uncertainty, right,
there's a lot that happens wherethat people don't understand
(34:03):
that if something were to happen, how are they going to be
protected?
Right, and that's kind of athing that people like a lot of
times, you know.
You know an average person, youknow, and they're going with
their day to day, right, they'rethinking about just the here
and now.
Right, a lot of people don'tthink about what can happen if
something were to go awry rightand being vigilant in that sense
(34:28):
as well.
But yes, I mean, but I do seeyou know how economics and
mental health are very stronglycorrelated together, and I think
that's a very poignant pointthat people overlook more often
than not.
Speaker 2 (34:46):
What's also interesting is just environment
in general.
I have this experiment I tellpeople and I say I want you to
imagine two children born in thesame city same year, but one
grows up surrounded by parks andtrees, but the other person
grows up in a concrete jungleand there's just no parks, no
(35:07):
greenery for miles.
When you look at them asteenagers, which child do you
think is more likely to developa psychiatric disorder?
probably the one growing up inthe jungle concrete jungle,
right, yeah, so the the kidwithout nature access, uh, is
(35:29):
the one that grows up morelikely to develop a psychiatric
disorder.
And there was this study in denDenmark and they followed
nearly 1 million children over alongitudinal study and they
found that the kids that grew upwith the least access to green
space had a 55% higher risk ofdeveloping a psychiatric
(35:50):
disorder later in life 55%, wow.
And so just nature, access tonature is so important for
mental health, but it's onething we are just not building
into our society right now.
We're building our society forcars, for making money, and not
for meaning or connection orhealth.
Speaker 1 (36:14):
And you know it's interesting you say this because
I was watching this movie atthe Museum of Science and
Industry here in Chicago andthey were talking about cities
of the future and one of thethings they were talking about
is having more green city, whereyou are getting more power from
(36:34):
solar, having more greenery,having more parks, and they talk
about they featured Singapore alot on there, because Singapore
is a city, state country and it, you know.
They talk about the amount oftrees they built as a way
because the heat gets so muchthere, right, but they also have
(36:55):
certain systems in place, right, for it to function with.
You know, even despite theclimate, right, and it is, and I
can say as a runner here too,it is very healing to be in
nature, you know, just havingthe green, having fresh air,
(37:15):
being in the sunlight, being,you know, just breathing in air
from the outdoors, right, andit's so important to even have
all these elements.
And I think you know if we cango into a, you know when we're
looking ahead, using science toour advantage, right, using
(37:35):
these innovations to get moregreen cities right, and it's
going to take time, right,because change takes time, but I
really do.
And tech and use it for thebetter we can make things, more
(38:02):
we can actually start absolutelyto incorporate more greenery,
like what it said in that movie.
Speaker 2 (38:09):
What scares me is our current government is very pro
deregulation and taking awayenvironmental protections, and
I'm scared for the way ourcities are going to be built and
I'm scared about what'shappening currently in our
country, because some of thethings they discuss is oil
(38:33):
drilling, drill, baby drill isone thing that we hear and a lot
of that side of politics, andwe also have heard that they
want to do more deforestationand make it so that that is just
fine is to do moredeforestation, and there
(38:54):
obviously were a lot of fundingcuts to national parks, and
there's just things happeningright now that make me very
scared.
To be honest with you and, Ithink, a lot of people in Gen Z.
I know that 75% of us alone haveclimate anxiety and it's scary
to think that the people who arerunning our country right now
(39:16):
are essentially wanting to takeaway environmental protections.
It's frightening, and so thereare certain things I talk about
that I think we just really needto really hone in on and
advocate for in our politics,and a lot of people don't want
to think of mental health aspolitical, but it is.
(39:38):
It is deeply political becauseit shapes whether we're going to
get health care, whether ourcities are going to be protected
, whether we're going to haveregulations to protect our
environment and you know whetherwe're going to have a healthy
economy.
So that's important to eventhink about is who we're voting
(40:04):
for.
Yeah, but but diving into that,I do talk about solutions and I
talk about ways.
I think we can fix this and Ido think it's important to have
a positive outlook and to thinkabout ways we can all get
involved in ways we can fixwhat's happening truly.
Speaker 1 (40:26):
And where can people get a copy of this book out of
focus?
Speaker 2 (40:31):
It's on my website at out of focus bookcom.
Okay, it's on Amazon.
Speaker 1 (40:40):
What inspired you to write this book, what you know
was the driving force for you,that you decided that you needed
to put this all out.
Speaker 2 (40:50):
I, I would say, definitely losing my best friend
was.
Was that sparking point for me?
I had fully planned on justgraduating with my master's and
starting my business, which I'mactually launching.
In a few months I'm really tobe opening what I call the Stay
Cafe, which is all about suicideprevention and it's basically a
(41:15):
coffee shop where anyone cancome in anytime who's struggling
with their mental health, andthey will know that there's a
place for them and everyonethere is trained in peer support
and it will be a space thatwill have mental health
programming pretty much all daylong.
But it's not a medicalizedinstitution, it's just a place
(41:36):
where anyone can go and do work,meet with friends, go to events
and know that they belong.
Speaker 1 (41:44):
And the nonprofit that you're starting is it
mainly to promote for moremental health awareness
resources, mainly to promote?
Speaker 2 (41:54):
for more mental health awareness resources.
Yeah, I so I I got sidetrackedwriting the book and publishing
the book and really going all inon my activism, which now I'm
just doing through through mynonprofit anyways.
But during that year that Iwrote the book and the year
after that I have been doing allthis advocacy and going on
amazing podcasts like yours.
Speaker 1 (42:16):
I.
Speaker 2 (42:17):
I wasn't as focused on building the social
enterprise which I went to getmy master's for in the first
place, but I've been working onbuilding this, this business,
for a really long time.
In fact, I started having ideasfor it in undergrad when I was
getting my sociology degree andI've always known I wanted to
create a space for people toknow that they belong.
(42:38):
Because I didn't feel like Ibelonged as a little kid.
I didn't have a lot of friendsand I felt very lonely and I was
bullied and I never really feltlike I had a space in this
world, and so in a lot of waysI'm kind of building it for
myself world and so, in a lot ofways, I'm kind of building it
for myself.
Speaker 1 (43:01):
Yes, and it's such a powerful thing that you've done
in taking your pain and using itfor a purpose right, for the
greater good, and taking it tohelp others and give back.
And I can definitely empathizeand that's why I do what I do
with my podcast.
You know because, like you, Iwas very lonely.
I didn't have any friends withmy podcast.
You know because, like you, Iwas very lonely, I didn't have
any friends, bullied a lot, youknow, cried all the time, and I
also didn't feel like I belongedin this world either.
(43:21):
So I felt like you know whatyou know.
This is why, you know, I lovegiving back and you know,
whether it's through my book orthrough my, through this
platform, on my podcast, orthrough therapy and life
coaching, self-esteem coachingis to give back and allow people
to express themselves and feeland allow, you know, people to
(43:45):
hear their thoughts right andknow that it's a safe place.
Speaker 2 (43:52):
Yeah, I love that and it's amazing that you're doing
the same and I think a lot ofpeople who are neurodivergent
that grow up neurodivergent.
We just it is really hard tofeel like we fit in because our
systems aren't built for usthere aren't a lot of spaces for
us and there aren't a lot ofplaces where we can go and feel
like, oh wow, I belong here,people see me, and so that's
(44:15):
really what I'm trying to do andbuild is a place where you walk
into the stay cafe and you areseen and you belong and we love
you.
Speaker 1 (44:24):
That's a beautiful thing.
I also feel like going intothat too.
You know, one point, you knowthat I feel and I've been
teaching clients this as well ishow do you deal with somebody
who thinks differently than you?
Because you find, nowadays,with even the younger
generations, how do you have acivil conversation?
(44:45):
People don't know how to agreeto disagree anymore, right, and
I had to actually go and teach aclient.
I had to give them an example,right?
So I said, okay, let's saysomebody you meet thinks
differently about a topic thanyou do.
You know one way you start thatconversation.
(45:08):
The thing is, you're not goingto change anybody's mind if you
shove things down someone'sthroat and start name calling.
What you do is you first meetthem where they're at and then
ask them a question how longhave you been feeling this way?
What made you think this way?
Right?
And then maybe say somethingalong the lines of you know what
(45:30):
?
I have a little bit of adifferent take on it.
If you allow me, I'd like toshare what I think right, and do
it this way and have it be acivilized conversation, right, I
feel nowadays, you know, peopleare so quick, you know, and it
(45:51):
doesn't matter what side of theline you stand on, but people in
general we're just sayinghumans in general here are so
quick to tear one another downand I feel like that.
You know, and this is somethingthat also, in my opinion, can
lead to even more loneliness,because you know, how do you
(46:12):
then express yourself in a roomof people that don't think like
you without feeling like you'regoing to be outed and ganged up
on right?
So this is another topic andanother point that I see a lot
of with loneliness, especiallywith the younger generation.
Speaker 2 (46:30):
I write all about cancel culture in my book and I
was on a podcast a couple ofweeks ago called Love Joy Nation
, where I talk all about cancelculture.
Unfortunately, gen Z we arekind of famous for cancel
culture and what you're sayingis so important and I'm so glad
you brought it up, because weare such a generation that is so
(46:52):
judgmental.
We love to cancel people and wehate when people don't think
the way we do.
It's across the board and I'mnot sure what it is.
I think we were raised verydifferently.
We were raised a lot by tigerparents and we had a lot of over
parenting.
We had a lot of emotionalneglect too.
(47:15):
But I think I think there issomething in the Gen Z culture
that makes us very, very quick.
To just cancel people and treatpeople like they're disposable
is such a huge problem and I'veexperienced it in my own life, a
(47:36):
couple years ago with a groupof friends who didn't like my
partner and just decided tocancel me because of who I was
dating.
It's like there is this powerful, powerful cancel culture in Gen
Z, where we just we alienatepeople instead of giving them
the opportunity to learn andgrow, and it's especially
prevalent, unfortunately inliberal circles more than
(47:58):
conservative circles, and Ithink that's why a lot of people
end up drawn into conservatism,because they're not shooed away
and alienated and told thatthey're idiots and the worst
people ever because they didn'tknow some nuance.
Right, it's right.
And it's not fair to callsomebody an idiot for something
they maybe didn't know yeah, youknow and of course, in the
(48:19):
liberal circles, we're told, youknow, if you don't educate
yourself and spend hours a dayeducating yourself on some
really nuanced topic that a lotof people who go to school for
for years are still learningabout, you know, it's very, very
alienating and difficult forpeople to be on the in what I
believe to be the right side,and so I think it's huge what
(48:44):
you're talking about and I'mcurious what do you tell your
clients, like?
What do you say to them to helpthem kind of know it's okay for
people to disagree with you.
Speaker 1 (48:52):
Well, I discussed that we live in a pluralistic
society.
Well, part of living in apluralistic society is that idea
of people thinking differently,and this is what makes our
society beautiful is when peoplehave different trains of
thought.
(49:12):
Our society beautiful is whenpeople have different trains of
thought, because how would weever learn anything different if
we never allowed ourselves tosee different points of view?
If we're so stuck on having oneway of thinking and one side
only prevailing and saying myside is the right side and you
better think like me, and if youdon't, you're out.
How then do you reach morepeople?
(49:34):
Because, if anything, you'rejust going to turn people away.
And so my thing is thisSometimes we can learn when we
allow ourselves to understandwhere another person's coming
from.
This is what allows us to learnmore, this was what allows us
to grow, and learning to havecivil debates right is what
(50:00):
allows us to grow as humans,because we, in those civil
debates, we can hear viewpointsthat we didn't think of before.
And I'm not a confrontationalperson.
I'm really not.
I hate confrontation.
I try to avoid it like theplague.
But I'll tell you this I won'tshy away from a good debate if
(50:26):
it's something I feel passionateabout.
And one of the things I feelpassionate about is how is about
neurodivergence?
Actually about how people thinkabout women who are
neurodivergent and the way thatpeople put their positions on
those who are neurodivergent andthe way the media portrays
(50:49):
neurodivergence and certainshows portrays neurodivergence
and certain shows Okay, and Iactually will do this podcast
episode about what I think aboutall of this, you know.
But I will say in short thatthere are some things I
appreciate, but I also feel thatthere's a lot that's still
(51:09):
neglected.
I feel that, you know, when theyportray women on the spectrum,
there's a lot they don't, youknow, show about women.
They don't.
They don't show the fullspectrum of women.
They don't show like differentbackgrounds as much.
Or, you know, they only show acertain kind of person more than
(51:33):
others and they don't show whatit's like for, let's say,
somebody who's educated andbecame a doctor or became a
lawyer, became a therapist, or X, y, z, right, what, whatever
they became.
They don't show like that aboutthose kind of people who are on
(51:56):
the spectrum but yet, you know,are doing what everybody's
doing in daily life and peoplemay be overlooking them or just
thinking, oh, those people arejust weirdos or whatever.
Right, they're showing more ofthe people that maybe didn't
have those kinds ofcircumstances or, you know,
weren't pushed in a certain way.
You know what I'm saying.
(52:16):
Like they're just showingdifferent kinds of things.
Speaker 2 (52:21):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (52:22):
You know, and I feel like there's more work in that
area to be done.
And you know, and I mean, do Iappreciate what they're trying
to do Absolutely?
I do appreciate the promise,but I feel like they could do a
lot more.
Speaker 2 (52:38):
Absolutely, Absolutely Well.
I will say that in my book, theway I think we can solve this
crisis is through prevention.
I think we love to band-aid andsend people home with some
medication and say good luckwhen they're in crisis, but I
think what we really need to dois start looking at how we
(53:01):
prevent the crisis to begin with, and I talk about basically
it's transforming the conditionsthat make people unwell in the
first place, and so that couldlook like universal health care.
Unwell in the first place, andso that could look like
universal healthcare.
The United States is the onlyhigh income country in the world
that doesn't have some sort ofbasic healthcare, and so if we
(53:23):
create a universal healthcare,we need to make sure we
integrate mental health withtrue parity and not what we have
right now because it's not aparity.
I believe we need to starthaving trauma-informed schools
and stop using police officersand start putting in counselors
(53:44):
and mentors and art therapiststhat help kids feel seen and
creative and belong, and we knowthat access to care reduces
stigma and it improves illnessrates.
I think we need to start goingham with building green spaces
and walkability and making surethat cities are built to really
(54:06):
give people that mental wellnessand we know, based on the data,
that nature is a provenantidepressant and access to
environment is a public healthnecessity, especially when you
look at how much of animprovement it truly makes in
someone's life nets.
(54:36):
And universal basic income isone thing I think could be a
really, really important way wehelp people, and a lot of people
.
They don't love the idea of it.
I know that in conservativecircles or something called, I
think, like the freedom dividendor something like that, there
are different ways of looking atit, but the the idea is giving
people the access and theresources to live better lives
(55:00):
and have a sense of agency overour futures.
And and the other thing I talkabout is we need to make it free
to have go to college,especially for therapists and
medical professionals.
I think if you're going into aprofession that is service based
(55:20):
, helping people, you should nothave to pay for college.
I really believe that, and Italk about a national service
program, which was actuallysomething that Pete Buttigieg
talked about when he was runningfor president.
I think it's a fantastic idea.
I think a lot of people, whenthey graduate high school, they
have no idea what the hell theywant to do.
They have no idea, and it's areally cool idea to give high
(55:43):
school graduates the opportunityto go into some sort of service
program for two years.
They do something amazing forthe world.
They plant trees, they helppeople in crisis, they go help
USAID, whatever it is.
They do something amazing.
They get paid a stipend andthey have their living accounted
for, and then they can go tocollege for free after they do
(56:06):
their service.
That would be huge.
That would be a huge thing,especially for Gen Z.
Huge.
That would be a huge thing,especially for gen z, where a
lot of us we feel like we wedon't know what our purpose is
in life.
Giving kids the access to somesort of national service program
could be really amazing.
And then, of course, givingthem the opportunity to go to
college is just like a win-win,and so that's a big one I talked
(56:28):
about too about too.
Speaker 1 (56:30):
Hmm, you know, and it's, yeah, there's so much out
there, especially now, you know,for people and it's you know, I
think I can see how it can bevery kind of confounding than to
know what exactly you want todo, especially when there's a
lot of option.
I mean, in a way, it's a greatthing, right, that you have a
(56:52):
lot of options out there, but atthe same time, it can be
confounding to figure it andnavigate your way through that
maze of, oh okay, well, what doI want to do with my life?
What you know, and and here'sthe thing in beauty what I see
nowadays that you know wasn'tthere when I was growing up, is
(57:13):
the fact that people can getpaid for being an influencer.
Now, people can get paid forcreating content, right, people
who are, who have creativity andare artsy right, there are ways
for them to put out things andfor them to eventually get
monetized Right.
(57:35):
And so I feel like, yes, I meanit's you know, even though it
is, you know, confounding, butat the same time, you have a lot
of, you know, new opportunitiesthat have come through all the
all this as well.
Speaker 2 (57:50):
Yeah, I have a lot of hope and at the end of the day,
I advocate for people who hearme, see me, hear my story.
I advocate for one of the mostimportant things, which is to be
kind, and the definition ofkindness I use is the act of
making someone feel less alone,to make them feel seen.
And I really believe if everyperson in the world followed
(58:13):
that and actually truly werekind, we would live in so much
better of a world.
So it's free, it's in, it doesso so much good so you know
there's actually a saying inautism speaks.
Speaker 1 (58:29):
You know that I, you know I have a pen and also there
was a hat.
I had it said be kind.
And I feel like that's so.
You know it's so important.
I feel like you know what theworld would be a lot better of a
place if we knew how to be kindto one another, if we knew how
(58:52):
to just, you know, not just beso quick to judge, but rather
just try to understand.
More than judge is you knowwhat you know, learning how to.
(59:18):
You know think learning.
You know people learning how tothink for themselves.
Number one, right, and not be socarried away by wayward
influence.
Right will be huge, and thattoo.
And then, number two, you know,learning different ways, right,
looking at.
You know, learning to seethings different ways.
You know, like we talk abouttheory of mind, right, why.
You know, like we may notunderstand it ourselves, but
(59:41):
people have a reason for whythey behave how they behave, for
why they think how they think,right.
And so you know andunderstanding that teaching
those foundations at a young ageRight Would be huge, I think
being part of that.
But I'm so excited, you know,for your book for your nonprofit
(01:00:02):
.
You know, ali, if people wantedto reach out to you, where can
people find you?
Speaker 2 (01:00:09):
I think my website is good because it has my
Instagram and my.
My whole name is really hard tospell, but my Instagram is at
Ali Bradenburg and you can findme on.
My website is good because ithas my Instagram and my whole
name is really hard to spell,but my Instagram is at Allie
Bradenburg and you can find meon my website and contact me
through there, and I love tohear from people so genuinely.
If you're hearing me today,reach out to me.
I love to talk to people, Ilove to hear your story and I
(01:00:29):
just like to connect with peoplewho care about wanting to make
mental health better.
Speaker 1 (01:00:35):
Oh, you know that's a big passion of mine is making
mental health better and beingseen, you know, in a system like
you talk about, that, thatdesigned for people with
neurodivergence, one of mymissions is let's make it so
that neurodivergence can thriveRight, and so can thrive right.
(01:00:56):
And so you know, I reallysupport you, support your work.
I'm excited to hear more aboutyour nonprofit when things come
up.
You said that there was goingto be a 5k.
Is that there a date set forthat yet?
Speaker 2 (01:01:06):
Yes, so our launch party is July 26th and 5k.
This day party is July 26th andthe 5k, the stay 5k, is going
to be August 23rd and where isit going to be?
The stay 5k will be in SanDiego at the Lagoon at 2 o'clock
(01:01:26):
and you can find it on thewebsite, which is at the
belonging lab, sdorg at thebelonging lababsdorg.
Speaker 1 (01:01:35):
At the belonginglabsdorg.
Okay, all right, I'm going tohave all those links in the show
notes.
Speaker 2 (01:01:44):
So outoffocuscom is your website correct For your
book One of them.
I love making websites, but formy nonprofit it's the
belonginglabsd.
Speaker 1 (01:01:53):
Okay, but the belonginglab All right, great,
and with that, ali, thank you somuch for being here, thank you
so much for sharing yourvulnerability, thank you so much
for allowing us into your storyand allowing us to hear your
point of view and hear yourthoughts on things, because I
think that you know you'veprovided such amazing
(01:02:17):
information and a different wayfor people to start looking at
mental health that we you know,most people are ordinarily not
looking into, and I feel likethis is this has been a really
thought provoking conversationand I appreciate you sharing
your views on here.
Speaker 2 (01:02:37):
So happy to do so and so great to speak with you and
thank you for the work you do aswell.
Speaker 1 (01:02:42):
Well, thank you and folks, that's a wrap for this
episode of On the Spectrum withSonia.
Please remember to like,subscribe and share with your
friends and family if you enjoythis content.
Also, my book Dropped in a Mazeis available for purchase on
(01:03:04):
Amazon and is sold by major bookdistributors.
Also, while we're talking aboutbooks, please check out Allie
Vredenberg's book Out of Focus.
And with that, wishing you alla great day, thank you for
tuning in and speak with younext time.
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