November 8, 2023 • 71 mins
Have you ever wondered what it's like to make a combat jump in the midst of the Vietnam War? SL Waller, a seasoned US Army veteran, takes us through his riveting journey, beginning from the moment he enlisted in November 1964, through his first combat jump in 1967, and beyond. His story doesn't just end on the battlefield, but extends into his journey reintegrating into a society deeply divided over the war.
Join us as we navigate Waller's life post-war, where the challenge of adjustment is a battle in itself. But with the steadfast support of his wife Phyllis, Waller finds a new purpose and a way forward. His account provides a stark depiction of how veterans had to adapt after returning home, offering a fresh perspective on what it truly means to serve your country and then come back to a civilian life that can seem alienating at times.
Lastly, we delve into the often unseen aspects of being a veteran - the treatment by the VA, the impact of the PACT Act, and the evolution of civilian attitudes towards veterans. Waller's insights illuminate the importance of community, his personal coping mechanisms, and his views on the changing societal perceptions. Whether it's his first leap from a plane or his advice for fellow veterans transitioning out of military life, Waller's captivating narrative offers an enlightening look into the lived experiences of a soldier during and after the Vietnam War.
Contact Thad - VictoriousVeteranProject@Gmail.com
Thanks for listening!
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to another episode.
I'm here today with SL Waller.
He is a Vietnam veteran, formerUS Army.
How are you doing, SL?
Speaker 2 (00:11):
I'm fine here in McKinney, Texas.
Speaker 1 (00:14):
And McKinney, texas, and I met you here in Fort
Collins, colorado, where I live.
I know you were here visitingyour granddaughter, is that
correct?
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Yes, granddaughter at Colorado State Starting her
second year, so we came by thereafter we spent a week over in
Warner Park.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
Wow, man, I'm really grateful for you taking the time
.
I know I randomly grabbed youon the side, but I saw your
Vietnam veteran and I justwanted to hear a little bit
about your story and Iappreciate you taking some time
to jump on today, my pleasure.
So what did it look like beforeyou even joined?
(00:56):
I always like to ask peoplelike why did you join the
military, what did it look likefor you?
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Well, I was actually living in Albuquerque, new
Mexico, when I joined.
I had been there for well abouta year and a half, almost two
years.
My dad got transferred fromAmarillo, texas, to Albuquerque,
new Mexico right in the middleof my senior year of high school
.
But I was ready to go dosomething different anyway, so I
(01:25):
didn't mind going toAlbuquerque and finishing up my
last half of my senior year, andafter a year and a half of not
accomplishing much other thanpumping gas at a gas station and
working on old cars, I decidedI needed to change.
So I went downtown Albuquerqueone day and the Marine deal was
(01:49):
too far to walk, so I joined theArmy.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
Fair enough.
So they just had the greatplacement.
Let's get it a little bitcloser.
Yeah, all right, and what yeardid you join in?
Speaker 2 (02:06):
I joined in November, actually November 10th 1964.
I think that's almost VeteransDay.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
That is.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
And that's when you went off to basic.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
Yeah, I went to Fort Polk, louisiana, on a train.
Actually they didn't have manyairplanes that went from
Albuquerque to Louisiana, so wewere two or three days on a
train and back in those days thesergeants that met you at the
train station were pretty scaryguys, but that was early
(02:43):
mid-November so it was colder inLouisiana than I expected and
we got to go home for Christmasand that was a welcome break
from basic training.
And then for Benning, georgia,for Infantry Field Radio
Mechanics School, and I heardthese crazy guys in the morning
(03:09):
at five o'clock running aroundin circles hollering airborne,
airborne, and I didn't know whatthey did.
But when I asked around I foundout that they were earning $55
a month extra for jumping out ofairplanes.
I said, well, hell, I can dothat.
Double my pay.
I was making $78.50 a month asa private then, and so I was
(03:33):
right there at Fort Benning, thedeparture for school.
So first five airplanes I wasever in I jumped out of.
I had never been in an airplanebefore.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
Wow, so that's impressive.
So you're just your first fiveever.
Those were the ones you werelike.
Well, I'm going up, I'm goingto jump out of it.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
Yeah, and.
I didn't know what landing wasin an airplane until I went home
on leave one time.
So yeah, it's an interestingthing.
But there were C119s left overfrom Korean War, so we were glad
to get out of them actually.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
Okay, well, I think they still keep that tradition
alive.
I think we had all the aircraftI was ever in was left over
from the Vietnam War and it wasdefinitely.
We always joked that if itwasn't.
You know, if you're in ahelicopter that wasn't making
some weird noise or leaking somefluids, that's when you knew
you had problems.
(04:30):
As long as it was leaking ormaking weird noises, you're good
.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
Yeah, we jumped, I made 18.
Yeah, I made 18 jumps.
Yeah, we jumped out of the oldC119, of course, in jump school.
But then at Fort Bragg, northCarolina, where I went, I was
82nd airborne there for about ayear and when I got to Fort
(04:56):
Bragg, north Carolina, they hadjust left for the invasion.
They sent two battalions toDominican Republic to prevent
another communist rebel guy totake over the Dominican Republic
.
So we took care of that and westayed down there for six months
.
So we got from.
In my case I went over downthere in June, got home in
(05:21):
December and we prevented thatcommunist takeover of the
Dominican Republic.
Not too many people rememberthat war.
It even had a operation namedPower Point.
I think it was or Power orsomething.
We have a little high schoolannual looking thing that
(05:44):
describes what that war wasabout.
But it was a short war but wewere getting combat pay for six
months, so it was cool.
So that's another 65 a month.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
Okay, so he's tripled , tripled everything really
quickly.
Speaker 2 (05:59):
What was it like?
Speaker 1 (06:00):
down there in the Dominican Republic.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
Hot, sticky.
We lived under a bridge forthree months, the Duarte Bridge.
The rebels were across thebridge and an old I think it was
an old cotton mill or somethinglike that and we were on the
other side of the bridge andthey take pot shots at us all
night long.
So you learn real quick not togo out to the front of the area
(06:28):
to go to the bathroom at night,because they would take a shot
at you if they saw you.
But eventually we took care ofthem and we did not jump into
the Dominican Republic.
The Marines, thank you, tookthe airport and then we flew
C-130s in.
Okay, we thought we were allokay when we got back to Fort
(06:56):
Bragg, north Carolina.
We weren't going to have to goto Vietnam because we had
already done our war for sixmonths and we were wrong.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
So and did you see a lot of conflict there?
I mean, were there asignificant amount of firefights
?
What did it look like for you?
Speaker 2 (07:13):
Well, the fighting only lasted about three weeks.
We killed about 300 of them andthey killed about 30 of our
guys and the rest of it waspolice duty.
Basically, our particular groupof battalion was responsible
for guarding the access of thebridge coming in and out of the
(07:38):
San Domingo.
And the rebels, their idea ofarmored personnel was impolos,
chevrolet impolos, with nowindows, with machine guns
sticking out of me, so it was aninteresting day.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
Yeah, that's very interesting, and so you were
there six months.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
I lived there six months from.
June until December, and theneverybody came home.
Actually, the Navy brought ushome on old flat bottom LSDs or
LSTs, I don't know what the Navycalls them, but we were glad to
get back to North Carolina.
And then, five months later,they started sending us to
(08:24):
Vietnam, to the 173rd AirborneBrigade, who had actually come
from Okinawa.
The 173rd Airborne Brigade, theentire brigade, moved to
Vietnam in May of 65.
So when we started replacingthem in May of 66, we were
(08:44):
replacing the guys that had donetheir 12 months and they were
coming home, or we were overthere replacing them one at a
time, 10 at a time, whatever inthe place right near the Benoit
Air Base, which became thelargest air base in Vietnam,
still is.
(09:04):
I guess it's not ours now,though.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
No, yeah Well, so y'all were essentially just
dropping in and replacing peoplethat were.
They did 12 months and then youwere dropping in to replace
them.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
Yeah, most, most of the Army guys were 12 month
service in Vietnam and you hopeyou lived the 12 months and you
came home yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
What was that like?
Because for us we would drop inand replace a whole unit, and
it sounds like it was more of ahandful of people would go in
and just replace a few people.
So you weren't actually withall of your buddies that you had
trained up with all the peoplein your unit state side that you
knew.
Speaker 2 (09:49):
Yeah, the best example of that was Forrest Gump
.
Him and his friend Bubba inthat movie were replacements,
and so they had to learn fromthe guys who had been there for
a year or six months or two days, and so that's the way that war
(10:10):
was run until 1973, when weturned it over to the South
Vietnamese.
Speaker 1 (10:19):
And so would you say, and I would have never thought
to bring up Forrest Gump, butsince you did, clearly you've
seen it was at a pretty accuraterepresentation of a lot of
things that were, that werehappening over there.
Speaker 2 (10:34):
A lot of people asked me that in the last 50 years
and I think the answer is someof us had it easier than others
and some of us had it harder.
I was probably in the middle ofthat continuum.
A whole lot of guys had it alot worse than I did up north,
(10:56):
but we were only about 100clicks north of Saigon, so we
were going into the Arn Trianglearound Tay Nhan and everything
north of the Ben Wire base tokeep the enemy at bay, which
worked okay until the TetOffensive in January 30th or 68.
(11:22):
But I was already home incollege by then.
But you learn from the guys inthat part of that movie that's
what they were doing, learningfrom the guys in front of them,
because some of those guys thatI replaced had left Okinawa, had
been their career guys, who hadbeen their whole careers in
(11:44):
Okinawa.
Because Okinawa became a largeUS Army military deal after
World War II.
So they created the 173rdAirborne Brigade, I think in
1963 maybe, and so they're now.
Last I heard they were in Italy.
Speaker 1 (12:04):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
That brigade.
Speaker 1 (12:08):
So what is it you mentioned?
You get asked that a lot overthe last 50 years.
I'm curious to ask you what doyou not get asked that you wish
everybody knew about?
Speaker 2 (12:23):
Well, one of the questions they always ask is how
many people did you see die, orhow many did you kill, or those
kind of questions, and mytypical answer is you know,
probably the answer is too manyof both.
We lost 58,000 troops inVietnam from 1964, basically all
(12:47):
the way to 1973.
And then we left there in ahurry, as you recall, with the
embassy in Saigon and.
North Vietnamese took overwithin 24 hours, just like
Afghanistan just happened.
So history repeats itself.
But as we, as you know, weweren't welcomed home by and
(13:18):
large Because of the late 60s.
Our country was in a mess withanti-war protesters and the LBJ
deal and Robert McNamara, theSecretary of Defense, who wanted
numbers.
He wanted body count.
So we'd give him body count.
(13:39):
We don't really know if it wastrue or not, but you say well,
how many did you get today?
And he said well, I think I got20, if you're out on patrol
this last in three weeks, ormaybe you get, well, I need more
.
Okay, I did 50.
So that's the way that war went.
Because there was no internet orcell phones, we stayed over
there 12 months until we got tocome home.
(14:02):
So the Westmoreland and theother generals could not do
their jobs because thepoliticians wouldn't let them do
it.
But the Vietnamese people arewonderful people.
They've been fighting for theirindependence for hundreds of
years.
(14:22):
They fought the Japanese, theyfought the Chinese, they fought
the French and they fought usand they beat them all.
So lesson learned stay out ofcivil wars.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
That is, yes, a great lesson, and I think about that.
And when I ask you too, whatdoes it make you think?
Because you mentioned historyrepeating itself, because I
still have questions to ask youabout your time in, but just you
mentioned everything withAfghanistan.
What thoughts do you have aboutbeing able to?
You saw it happen with yourtime in and seeing it with our
generation.
Speaker 2 (15:00):
Yeah, the domino theory that's how we got into
Vietnam.
The domino theory that I don'tknow who started it, but LBJ
says we don't want a communistrunning Vietnam.
And now they do and they'redoing a pretty good job.
I've been three years in a newhouse here and my right-armed
(15:22):
fence came from Vietnam.
A lot of my clothing comes fromVietnam and so they're a great
trading partner right now andthey have a good country.
We have a good country, as goodas it can be right now,
politics as it are.
But they were people who hadfought off all those other
(15:47):
invasions to their country, andthe French in particular.
It was Saigon.
It was called the Paris of theOrient, I think, and the French
thought they were running thingsthere.
And Ho Chi Minh had a differentidea and he was educated both
in Russia and the US, so he knewthat the hearts and minds of
(16:09):
the North Vietnamese people wentover and he was right.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
Well, I always love hearing comparisons about it and
somebody mentioned and.
Then there's a book, theInfinite Game, where he talks
about just what you're fightingfor and they actually use that
as an example.
Whereas other countries that goin are fighting to win, whereas
they were fighting to survive,for them it was a survival thing
(16:42):
.
What was it like for you toexperience that?
Must have been a really long 12months.
What was that like for you?
Speaker 2 (16:58):
Counting Santa Domingo for the six months in
Vietnam for 12 months.
I went in when I was age 19.
So my 20th birthday and my 21stbirthday were both in combat,
earning combat pay, and we werejust doing our jobs.
We volunteered.
(17:20):
I did volunteer.
As you know, more than half thetroops were drafted, so they're
in for two years and here usvolunteers were in for three
years and in fact when I joinedI didn't even know for sure how
many years I was in for I justwanted to go do whatever I
(17:41):
wanted to do in the Army.
It's just you're doing your job, you're out of the politics.
Because I didn't understand thepolitics.
All we were told was Ho ChiMinh was a bad guy and he was
trying to take over SouthVietnam and LBJ didn't want him
(18:02):
to.
So we were trying to preventthat takeover.
And that was old news for theNorth Vietnamese.
They had heard that story andthey thought they had a better
idea politically of how to runthat country.
And now they're doing a goodjob of it.
(18:23):
So the soldiers were just doingour jobs.
We weren't asked about thepolitics, we were just told to
go on this operation and 12months I was over there we did.
I think it was 12 or 13different operations that lasted
anywhere from two weeks tothree weeks.
You'd go into the iron triangle, you'd take over an area.
(18:45):
You might find some trouble,you might not, and then you'd
come back and drink beer and eatsteaks and enjoy life and take
a shower.
Then a week later you'd jumpback on the helicopter to Huey's
.
Back then there were Huey's andyou'd jump back in the
helicopter and go out.
So you were out in the bush twoweeks, maybe sometimes three
(19:11):
weeks, sometimes only a week.
Most of the time it was in andout on a helicopter, but a few
times we convoied in.
But there aren't a lot of roadsin Vietnam.
That Highway 1 was still there.
Of course, when people go backthere on vacation, a lot of
Vietnam vets do.
I have not or do I plan to Notopposed to it.
(19:33):
I just don't see any benefit.
There's things that would havechanged.
Obviously, in 55 years thevillage I was near wouldn't even
be recognizable.
It was just a small Vietnamesevillage and we took it over and
built an airport there BenoitAir Base.
Speaker 1 (19:55):
And so I mean it's shocking to me you talk about
just doing your job and itreally is giving me a moment of
pause.
I love that you have thatoutlook on it.
What was it like for yougetting out?
I know you said because thatwas a very different experience,
(20:15):
I think, than the generationand then our war that we had to
deal with what was it likegetting back from Vietnam?
Speaker 2 (20:25):
Well, you recall, short.
If you had a week left, you'rereally short.
The short you could sit on theedge of a matchbox and your feet
would dangle.
If you're short six months,you're not very short.
If you got six more months inthe bush, you got 50-50 chance
(20:46):
coming on the live.
So being short was a good thing.
So in fact I came home in May5th and I went out on an
operation in March and April andI didn't want to, but my job
was as a field infantry radiomechanic.
(21:07):
I had to keep the radiosworking, but when a battle
started up you weren't worriedabout fixing radios, you were
worried about defending yourposition and staying alive.
So we were glad to be short andon our way home, but we had, I
(21:32):
think, camaraderie with thosethat are still there.
You had to continue to do yourjob for the whole 12 months,
whether you like it or not, andthat represented only about 30%
of the people in Vietnam.
It was a support war.
There was six or seven peoplesupporting what?
(21:54):
25% or so of the soldiers whowere actually doing the battling
that needed.
You needed ammo, you neededfood, you needed water, you
needed Agent Orange and all thatother stuff the Air Force.
We only made one pursuit combatjump over there in February of
(22:19):
67.
And we were happy to do that.
And some general I think hislast name was Dean, general Dean
.
He wanted a combat jump ribbonon his chest so we jumped about
800 and guys I think it was 820people jumping out of C-130s
(22:40):
near a place called Tay Ninh inFebruary of 67.
In about 30 minutes we put800-plus guys on the ground to
block a group of NorthVietnamese regulars from going
into Cambodia.
So that was in February of 67,and I was due to go home in May,
(23:00):
so I was not too excited aboutdoing that one.
The Air Force did their job.
They took us out there anddropped 800 of us on the ground
and that didn't stop the NorthVietnamese.
They all went to Cambodiaquickly through one of our
companies and most of thatcompany was lost.
Speaker 1 (23:24):
What was that Phono in?
Speaker 2 (23:26):
Sh suspected.
Speaker 1 (23:28):
Yeah, what was it like to do to actually be on a
combat jump?
Speaker 2 (23:35):
Scary, had more gear than you normally have.
You have more ammo than younormally have.
It was basically a short drugzone, so it was kind of like a
rice paddy, but not as deepwater, and the jump went quite
well.
(23:55):
There was pictures I have ofone guy that got caught in a one
large tree and he hung up therein that tree for a while.
But the real battle started.
As they were, the NorthVietnamese regulars were heading
into Cambodia and there was alot of talk about that
(24:18):
particular.
The 173rd Airborne was pleasedto do it.
It was the second battalion ofthe 503rd that jumped in that
day.
There's been no other battalionjump, I don't think in any of
our wars since then.
Speaker 1 (24:38):
I know you mentioned it that a general wanted to get
his combat jump wings, and it'sinteresting how time that's also
repeats itself, because I'veheard many of stories of just
even throughout when I've seenit where officers are trying to
(24:58):
get certain things knocked outthat are rarefeeds in combat.
Speaker 2 (25:04):
Yeah, he wanted that deal and he got it.
I think he claimed he was thefirst guy on the first plane,
but I'm not sure I believe that.
Speaker 1 (25:18):
It's fascinating to me how, being separated by 40
years, how similar some of thisstuff is for our time, how
people chasing little accoladesand war time.
So did you actually jump downinto combat or did you all jump
(25:40):
into it and patrol over tocombat?
Speaker 2 (25:44):
They were shooting at us as we were coming down, but
they weren't very good shots.
I'm not aware that anybody gotkilled in the air, and when
you're jumping in at somewherearound a thousand feet, you
don't have very long to thinkabout it anyway, right.
Speaker 1 (26:05):
Well, but it's still.
I mean that's got to be justvery scary to jump into people
shooting at you.
Speaker 2 (26:13):
Yeah, if you change your mind about jumping out of
C-130, there's a very largefellow in the back of the plane
called Jumpmaster that's willingto help you out.
Speaker 1 (26:24):
I think that also hasn't changed in the army as
well.
And so you did that.
And what was it like returningback in back, to getting back
stateside, because you did yourtwo tours of combat duty.
What was it like coming back tothe states?
Speaker 2 (26:48):
You know I don't guess I understood what was
going on, particularly the waythe war was going.
Particularly the worst of it, Ithink, was in California
because of the liberal nature oftheir politics out there.
That was true now and it's trueback then.
And they had protesters thathad a permanent job, if you call
(27:12):
it a job of making sure we werenot welcome home in our
military uniforms.
And to the Oakland, sanFrancisco.
Most of us came back throughthat Oakland terminal, as I
recall there was some base nearthere I guess I really don't
(27:34):
remember the name of it, but Iwent to the.
Whatever the airport was it hadto be San Francisco or Oakland,
I guess to get back to theDallas, texas area and I
personally don't recall beingabused or I've heard stories of
(27:56):
guys that were called babykillers and spit on them and all
that stuff.
And the protesters were backthen we called them liberal
hippies and they believed whatthey believed and the 60s were a
terrible, terrible time for ourcountry and so we were not
welcome home by that group.
(28:17):
My mom and dad were glad I wasback home in Amarillo, texas,
but I didn't pay much attentionto that stuff.
I just got on another airplane,probably out of Dallas to get
to Amarillo, and as I recall itwas a propeller airplane from
(28:38):
Dallas because when I got to theAmarillo Texas airport, which
back then was a B-52 sack baseof the way it's still the
longest, widest runway in theUSA actually in Amarillo Texas
because they flew B-52s and itwas a backup landing site for
(28:59):
the space shuttle but we landedthere and.
I found my way to home anddinner and see my family again.
It was a good day.
Speaker 1 (29:15):
So I mean, you tell it so nonchalantly and maybe
that's how it is, because Iguess when we hear, we see stuff
, we hear about the stories ofhow bad it was for several
people coming back, it seemslike you got back, you hopped on
another plane, went back homeand just started living your
(29:36):
life.
Speaker 2 (29:38):
I did.
In fact, the next day my dadand I went and bought me a new
Oldsmobile 442 hot rod car, fouron the floor and a hot rod.
And that was what a lot ofVietnam vets saved their money
because, remember, we're makingcombat pay, paratrooper pay,
jump pay.
So I was nailing down about$350 a month, so I was rolling
(30:04):
in money and most of us saved up$2,000, $3,000.
So I bought that new car andthat's where life really began
For me.
Speaker 1 (30:22):
How so.
Speaker 2 (30:27):
After leaving Albuquerque joining the Army, I
knew what I didn't want to do,because the Army had offered to
re-up me and send me to Germany.
I said no, thank you, I'll bein Fort Hood Texas, if you need
me.
And so I said I'm not going toGermany and I'll be in Amarillo.
So about three or four weekslater they sent me orders for
(30:49):
Fort Hood, Texas, and I spentthe last three or four months
and then I got out like twomonths early to go to college.
So I knew that was a smartthing to do.
My dad had tried to, mom anddad had tried to send me to
college back in Albuquerqueafter high school, but I only
(31:12):
made it for six weeks.
I found out that you actuallyhad to go to class and I chose
not to, and they chose to ask meto leave the University of New
Mexico.
So I was a Lobo for just ashort period before I joined the
Army.
But two really good thingshappened.
(31:35):
I got to Dallas, Texas, fromAmarillo to see my sister.
She hooked me up with a blinddate for the woman who's right
over here in our living room,who I met about six days after I
was home from Vietnam, andwe've been married 55 years now.
Speaker 1 (32:01):
Wow, well, congratulations on that.
That's a very, very impressivething that you don't hear about
too often.
Speaker 2 (32:10):
Well, that you know.
I said two things.
The 442 Ovenmobile was onething, but the much better thing
that lasted a lot longer wasPhyllis.
Speaker 1 (32:23):
That's incredible.
You, just six days afterwards,you got set up on a blind date.
Speaker 2 (32:29):
Yeah, my sister.
She lived here as opposed tobeing in Amarillo with the rest
of the family, and so it was areally good thing and I spent
about three months down FortHood, Texas, driving back and
forth to date her and six monthslater we were married and got a
(32:50):
couple of wonderful kids nowand five grandkids.
So all of that worked good.
She gave me a reason to changemy outlook on life.
I decided pumping gas at 17cents a gallon in a gas station
probably wasn't a good career.
(33:11):
So thanks to her, I stayed incollege at the University of
Texas at Arlington for three anda half years and graduated, Got
a job and worked for Xerox for34 years and retired at age 60
and living in a good life herenow.
(33:31):
But if it wasn't for hercapturing me and me capturing
her there in the summer of 1967,life would not have been as
good.
Speaker 1 (33:48):
And that's really powerful.
And you said that, giving you areason and a different outlook.
I know you said just pumpinggas for 17 cents an hour.
Speaker 2 (34:03):
No 17 cents a gallon.
Speaker 1 (34:05):
A gallon.
Okay, and what was that?
Speaker 2 (34:09):
transition.
Speaker 1 (34:15):
That has definitely not remained the same.
What outlook did you have priorto that?
I know that that was quite sometime ago.
Speaker 2 (34:26):
Yeah, that's a good question.
I don't guess I had an outlook.
What's a guy going to do?
He's not doing war anymore,he's not educated, he's 21 years
old.
I turned 22 during that time,just before we married, I turned
(34:47):
22.
And I had no plan but Going tocollege and deciding I wanted to
be More like my dad, I guess ataxpayer, a father, a
(35:08):
grandfather, a successful person.
That that's something to shootfor.
And a lot of Vietnam vetsWeren't lucky.
They didn't have that.
In the other movies you see Withwhoever, all the other movies
(35:30):
about guys who come back andDon't behave right, don't go to
college or don't get a job orWell it's, it's a, it's kind of
a, an odd thing, but it givesyou a purpose For life.
(35:51):
You know, because I was raisedcorrectly.
My mom and dad get a, did areally good job of raising me,
but I lost track there somewhereBefore I joined the army and
the army gave me discipline,give them that and it gave me A
(36:15):
chance to see hey, maybe I couldgo to college, because before
the one try I did didn't lastthe 6 weeks, so College was and
getting married and Then 3 yearslater we started having
children and it was all good andA lot of that just kind of
(36:39):
happens.
I'm not pretending I planned itthat way, but it's a really
good thing that it happened.
Speaker 1 (36:49):
So and I know you said you didn't plan it yet it
was a really good thing, and Iknow you referenced to a lot of
people that came back fromVietnam didn't have that purpose
.
Why do you think it is thatthat some people find it and
some people don't find it ordidn't find it back then?
Speaker 2 (37:07):
Yeah, if I had the answer to that, I could write a
book Like a lot of money but Ithink Somewhere along the way
you have to have someone in yourlife that helps you Get
direction.
And even though my folks Wereglad for me to come back, they
(37:33):
had asked me to leave theirhouse Before that Because I was
not An upright citizen back in62, 63.
After high school, and theychose to escort me out of the
house and pack my bags for me.
(37:54):
I didn't even get a suitcase,but I realized later in life.
It hurt my mom more to run meoff, but it's exactly what I
deserve.
And maybe the answer is theother guys that I was hanging
out with an Albuquerque.
One of them became a Specialforces guy in Vietnam same time
(38:20):
I was and I spoke at his funeraljust about a year ago.
Agent Orange killed him.
It just took 55 years to killhim.
Agent Orange was what theysprayed on us over there and
they're paying for it now, butit gave him Parkinson's and the
(38:42):
good news is it took Parkinson'sabout 10 or 12 years to kill
him.
And one of the other guys whostill alive.
He didn't go to war but he wasWent in the Air Force.
He was smarter than us.
He went to the Air Force and hehe was a mechanic for how to
(39:06):
Fix the ejection seats andairplanes, so if the pilot had
to eject, he knew how to makesure that was working properly
so they would throw him out ofthe airplane correctly.
And One of the guys Didn't goto the military at all because
he had asthma and I spoke at hisfuneral to actually about five
(39:30):
years ago, but he just had anabnormal cancer, but he had a
family and Well, a good life andtwo kids and successful and the
other guy.
The last one Was a drug addict,basically, and he died after
(39:52):
about Doing drugs that rightthere in Albuquerque.
So I think it's luck of thedraw.
You know, you're either.
Maybe you're lucky and you haverich Family.
You picked your mom and dad.
Well, my folks were not rich,but they were.
(40:17):
They had four of us kids and mydad worked for Phillips
petroleum for 44 years and helived to be 88 and I'm 78 now.
So I think I'm going to beathim out of the deal.
I think I'm getting more than 88years out of, but I think, to
(40:38):
answer your question, I thinkit's luck of the draw.
You just hope you you hook upwith somebody that gives you a
good direction, and I did.
Speaker 1 (40:50):
Right, I love that your wife's name is Phyllis.
Yes you said Phyllis.
Oh well, I'm happy that she is.
It was really nice to meet heras well.
I know I interrupted your walkthrough old town To set this up,
but it's I'm happy to hear thatshe was able to give you that
(41:12):
purpose.
It's, it's interesting to seeall the similarities with even
your.
A lot of the stuff that youreferenced and talk about with
going to combat and, and I can'thelp but feel like so many
similar things.
You know, because right now wehave people that get out and you
hear about people struggling,people talking about that, and
(41:34):
Do you pay much attention tothat?
Do you hear about all of thestuff that's going on with
veterans getting out these days?
Speaker 2 (41:40):
You know we hadn't talked about it yet.
But After college, for about 20years, I didn't talk about the
military or the army or Vietnamor any of that, nor do very many
Vietnam vets.
It's only been in the last 10,12 years that I've been more
(42:04):
involved with the veterans group.
Part of that's because I wentto the VA veterans hospital up
in Bonham, texas, neighbor ofmine.
Back in I think it was 1992 heand I went to the VA hospital in
(42:25):
Dallas.
It was the last chance theysaid to sign up for VA Our
rights or whatever our rightswere at the VA hospital.
So I went with him, took my DD214 and and we went down there
and said, okay, now Members ofthe VA, but what does that
(42:46):
really mean?
Well, we started finding outthat it doesn't mean much if you
have.
In my case, I worked for Xeroxand I had good medical care
insurance, so I didn't need theVA for anything.
But as I got older I suddenlydiscovered that the government
(43:08):
decided Agent Orange was notgood for us.
So I got more involved.
I joined the Vietnam VeteransAssociation here in McKinney,
texas, and became aware thatAgent Orange was like my buddy
in Albuquerque.
I told you I spoke at hisfuneral.
It's a silent killer.
So just recently I've submittedunder the new PACT Act P-A-C-T.
(43:33):
The PACT Act says the veterancan submit a request for
disability under the PACT Actonline.
And so I did that about a monthago for two problems
hypertension and colon cancer.
And they said oh, you're right,agent Orange is presumed to
(43:57):
have caused that, but medicationtakes care of that and you're
not, it's not killing you rightnow.
It'll probably kill you later,but not right now.
So they said well, we'll saythat we caused it with the Agent
Orange, but you get zerodisability and that's okay
because I don't need their money.
(44:17):
But it's good that theyacknowledge that if I was to die
of colon cancer or hypertension, then my wife Phyllis would be
approved for about 1,800 a monthfor the rest of her life.
(44:37):
So that's the advantage, that'sthe payoff, I guess.
And now I have submitted onefor skin cancer, which is, oddly
enough, not one of the onesthat's approved for Agent Orange
being caused.
That's what they sprayed on.
(44:58):
But if you get other kinds ofcancer, like colon cancer and
all it does, and prostate cancerthe same thing.
So they're doing a better job,I think, in getting more Vietnam
vets involved and working withthe VA.
I've taken two or three of mybuddies up there neighbors, and
(45:20):
got them signed up.
Some of them embraced it.
But you have to learn to playthe game, the process.
You have to do it their way,and I do.
I've been going to the one inBonham, texas, every year for
about 12, 13 years for an annualcheckup to maintain my Agent
(45:41):
Orange status.
So they're doing a better job,but it took them probably too
many years to figure that outthat they were.
And now in Afghanistan and Iraqit's the same thing for the
burn pits.
This whole PACTAC is takingcare of the Afghan and Iraq
(46:04):
veterans that may have beeninjured by the burn pits the
silent killers I think they callthem.
Speaker 1 (46:16):
Yep, I'm happy to hear that you were about to go
get signed up for it.
I hate that it took so long andpart of me doesn't like that
they haven't that they're makingyou wait for it.
I am happy that you're able toget it signed up.
Speaker 2 (46:38):
Well, you know that's not a terrible thing because a
lot of people have colon canceror cancer spots in your once you
get old like me after age 50,you go to get a colon usk beer
year or two years or five yearsand they have little polyps on
them.
But when they have somethingcalled squamish, the result is a
(47:00):
squamish cancer, then itqualifies as an age and orange
caused cancer spot.
But they cut it off and it'sreally no problem right now.
But they can come back, that'sthe issue.
It might eventually get you, butyou don't really know.
And the same thing withprostate cancer and Parkinson's.
(47:20):
You don't really know if theage and orange caused it, but at
least they're saying now thatit does.
And in fact I had a neighborjust last month that passed away
.
He was in Vietnam the same timeI was and he had I think his
primary was colon cancer, but hehad PTSD and other things too,
(47:43):
so he was 100% disabled, whichin Texas that's a big deal,
because you don't pay propertytax then.
So that's something.
Speaker 1 (47:54):
So earlier you mentioned that you got out and
that it was pretty common foryour generation after getting
out, that you do spend 20 yearsnever talking about the time in
the military or your time ofservice.
Why do you think it was?
Why did you not talk about itfor 20 years?
Speaker 2 (48:18):
I think there's still a lot of.
Even in the 70s, after the warended 75 basically, when we
escaped from Saigon on the roofof the embassy there's still a
lot of feeling that soldiersthere it wasn't that we lost a
(48:42):
war, it was that you nevershould have been there.
And the liberals, I don't think, understand that we weren't
there because we wanted to goover there, we were just doing
our job.
So I don't know, wasn'tnecessary to talk about it.
(49:04):
I do recall, even at Xerox for34 years, when somebody would
say this is a bad thing that'shappening at Xerox and this
meeting or this event'shappening, my common words were
oh hell, I've been shot at, thatdoesn't worry me.
(49:24):
So I think part of it's theattitude that you could take
that says this is not a big deal, that's happening at Xerox,
whatever it is or any otherlittle catastrophe.
I've had people shooting at me.
So this is going to be easy,getting over this other easy
stuff.
So I think that's the copingmechanism.
(49:49):
I used In Vietnam, one of thephrases that you heard in a lot
of those Vietnam movies ain't nobig deal, ain't no thing.
I don't know if you guys inAfghanistan and Iraq said that a
lot, but I have buddies whohave sons who are over there.
(50:11):
There's something similar, Iguess, but maybe not those exact
words.
It don't mean nothing.
Speaker 1 (50:18):
Oh yeah, I just really appreciate your ability
to take that approach to it.
Did you struggle with?
Because you spent 20 years nottalking about it?
Maybe because it wasn't asaccepted back then?
One thing I see as common nowis a lot of veterans talk about
(50:43):
how they get out and theystruggle to get back in and
integrate back with civiliansand there seems to be this
barrier there.
Did you have that or do youfeel like that was common for
veterans back then?
Speaker 2 (50:55):
You know the three and a half years I was at
college at the University ofTexas at Arlington.
I never talked about mymilitary experience because it
wasn't going to gain me anythingand there's still a lot of
protesting in the streets andall that business.
So I just put it in the backpocket and didn't mess with it
(51:20):
For about six months.
I was a bartender during thattime in college at the VFW Club
in Irving, texas, working atnight, which Phyllis didn't
appreciate very much being thebartender down there.
But the veterans there weretypically Korean War and World
(51:44):
War II veterans and I was okaywith it because I was serving
them beer and liquor, you know.
But I think that we justweren't.
We had no parades, as yourecall.
(52:07):
We weren't welcomed home.
I think the real change happenedwhen, after Iraq and
Afghanistan and the parades thatwere all over our country.
That was a good thing becauseit made the citizens in this
country realize that those guysare just over there doing their
(52:28):
jobs US Army, marines, air Force, whatever they are
no-transcript.
You can't deny them theirparade.
You shouldn't deny them theirparade Because they did their
jobs.
They might have lost the war,which you could debate, but we
(52:52):
were prevented from winning ourwar.
But the truth is, in Vietnam,you weren't going to win a
long-term civil war, and I thinkwe learned that in Afghanistan
too.
Those tribal communities inthose countries, particularly
Afghanistan and Iraq, weretribal civil wars and they're
(53:17):
actually going to be back inpower, and that's exactly what
happened.
Speaker 1 (53:25):
I think that and you mentioned something as you were
talking about it how you were,you didn't understand the
politics of it, you were justdoing your job in the military.
And I think that when I wasreturning back, I did the
initial invasion in Iraq in 03.
And I remember my flight back.
We stopped in Germany and thenwe took a flight from Germany
(53:46):
into Baltimore and I remember Iwas so nervous flying back in.
I remember just kept thinking Idon't need a parade, but if
somebody spits on me I'm goingto lose my mind.
You don't have to thank me, butbecause I just felt like I was
as a troop on the ground, it wasjust that You're just doing
(54:11):
wherever you're going, whereveryou're getting sent, is just
doing your job.
And I think that is one thingthat a lot of our society did
learn from your war going intoours, because I even had I've
talked to several liberals thatjust said it wasn't the troops,
and I think that was the onething that I was very
(54:31):
appreciative of that they wereable to actually learn and grow
from that in our society.
So I hated that you guys had todeal with that.
Speaker 2 (54:42):
Well, and other things changed too.
For 10 or 12 years ago, even atmy grandkids elementary school,
they had a veterans day, fourveterans day, and I would go
there with all three of mygrandkids here in this area and
(55:02):
I had two more out in Tennesseethat we couldn't get to for that
but the three here in McKinney,texas, all went to the same
elementary school and every yearthey have a veterans day parade
and about 50 or 60 of usveterans all kinds Vietnam, iraq
(55:23):
, afghanistan would come to theschool and have a little parade
and the kids would all waveflags and it was appreciated
because that was our parade andbetter late than never.
Speaker 1 (55:40):
Yeah, I'm very happy that you got one, because it was
.
I was wondering what it waslike to be coming back from
Vietnam.
Just because of all the stuffthat you hear about it.
I see so many similarities inyour time of service and just
the stories that you share aboutbeing in the military.
(56:05):
It's interesting.
Do you think it's any different?
Because it seems like right now, this day and age, that a lot
of our generations veteransstruggle just in general.
Do you feel that's gone up ordo you feel it's similar to when
you got out of Vietnam or gotout of the military?
Speaker 2 (56:23):
Well, we don't seem to be in a war right now.
However, I read the other daywe got 700 troops over in Syria
trying to kill bad guys, so Iknow they're still happening.
And I got a friend whose son wasa Delta Force operator.
I know there's still stuffgoing on, but most citizens
(56:48):
don't want to hear about that.
Most citizens want to hearabout the price of gas, the
price of groceries, and that'swhy the volunteer army versus an
inscripted army.
You know, I came up with atheory.
I don't know if I'm right ornot, but it's a good discussion.
(57:09):
Well, we did not win Korea,it's a stalemate.
We did not win Vietnam.
We withdrew and turned it overto the South Vietnamese, et
cetera, et cetera.
And I got to thinking my dadwas in the Philippines and
Phyllis's dad was in Europe.
In World War II.
(57:31):
Those soldiers didn't get tocome home until they won the war
.
Think about that a minute.
They didn't get to come homeafter one year.
They had to win the war to comehome.
That's a real good incentive towin the war, to get to come
home, and I don't know thatthat's repeatable in today's
(57:56):
world.
But of course I believe thatall the future wars will be
handled differently anyway, withdrones.
And there's a bunch of AirForce guys I met at the snow
skiing two years ago at the TaosNew Mexico ski area and these
(58:16):
guys are from Los Cruces, newMexico.
There's an Air Force base outthere and these guys are running
drones and dropping bombs in awartime situation from drones
and their Air Force pilots, ifyou will, and I'm not sure
(58:37):
that's the right way to do a war, but at least it takes the
human loss out of it.
Remember those guys in World WarII didn't get to come home
until they won the war.
Speaker 1 (58:53):
Right, and this prevents them from having to go
step into the actual war zone.
However, it just hit me toothat that would make you know,
if we never do that, then thewar.
Instead of going to anothercountry, that would probably
bring the wars closer to home.
So instead of watching it on TV, it's probably across the way.
Speaker 2 (59:17):
Boy, a drone can reach Tucson, Arizona or
wherever.
Yeah Right, that's scary stuff.
Speaker 1 (59:27):
It is, man.
I really appreciate you jumpingon and sharing your story and
just knowing that you've, I'dlove to hear about your life and
everything that you've beenable to do and accomplish and
knowing that this is put this upfor veterans to help them
transition to you know, hearother people's stories to learn
(59:51):
from.
What advice would you give aswe close this up?
What advice would you give toany veterans that are getting
out right now?
What would you tell them?
Speaker 2 (01:00:04):
I would.
I'd recommend any veteran inparticular to hang out with the
right kind of people.
If that's not your family, gofind some people to hang out
with, whether it's a militarygroup, vfw, vietnam veterans,
(01:00:26):
guys at the coffee shop.
Stay busy, don't let.
Don't let what happened thatone year or two years of your
life determine how you're goingto behave in the next five years
(01:00:48):
of your life.
Find someone to care about,whether it's a wife or a
significant other or friends, or, and stay busy.
As you saw what I sent you theother day, I've got some
backpacking buddies and we'vebeen backpacking in the Rocky
(01:01:10):
Mountains, taking a 120 milecanoe ride down the Yukon River.
Every September we go somewhereand we do an adventure, some of
which almost killed us, butthat's okay.
We took a river raft from Moabto Lake Powell, utah, climbed to
(01:01:33):
the top of five statesKingspeak in Utah, mount Whitney
in California, mount Hood.
This group of guys the twomoons hiking club is, and I know
about it because I'm the trailboss.
I plan the trips.
So get involved in something,whether it's a library or hiking
(01:01:56):
trips or canoeing or whateverfloats your boat.
Stay involved and get out ofyourself.
Get out there with others andhave some friends, have some
associates.
If you're lucky, you getmarried to a good woman, like I
did, and have a couple of kidsand five grandkids, and that's
(01:02:17):
really important because thegrandkids get to pick your
nursing home.
Speaker 1 (01:02:25):
What do you mean?
And I think I know.
But I love how you frame thisup community and staying busy,
but then you mentioned to getout of yourself what do you mean
by that?
Speaker 2 (01:02:37):
If you just stay thinking about for me, here's
what I did.
I've got Agent Orange or I'vegot this or that, and I don't
pretend to know what PTSD is.
I may have it and not know it,but you can't let that control
(01:03:00):
the rest of your life or it'lltake your life.
And I'm not educated enough toknow how to get rid of it.
But I do know that medicationis not the answer and that's
what the VA gives you for thatcrap.
They give you medication.
So I don't know if it'scounseling or therapy or what
(01:03:23):
the answer is, but there'seducated people that can
hopefully help withoutmedication.
Speaker 1 (01:03:39):
I.
You said there's other peopleeducated on it.
I don't think there's anybodymore educated on it than than
yourself, having done whatyou've did in the military and
Having lived this, this amazinglife that you have, knowing that
that anybody that's beenoverseas, anybody that was in
the military these days,definitely have nobody that I
(01:03:59):
know has done anything to thecaliber of what you've done in
the military.
And so I Take everything thatyou say very heavily and I think
it's Words of wisdom, to getout of yourself and Don't let it
take your life, because it will.
Speaker 2 (01:04:16):
So yeah, and I appreciate your Podcast, all the
things you do to get the wordout.
I've watched three or four ofthem now.
There's some good stuff there.
I'll particularly like Socialawareness of the woman you had
(01:04:39):
about we didn't have the rightarmor for women, mm-hmm, I mean
I never would have thought aboutthat because we had no women in
Vietnam other than nurses.
Yep and a couple of reporters,and so the world, the world has
changed and you know she, shewas a real pioneer to figure out
(01:05:00):
women need different kind ofclothing or armored for various
reasons which I can't reallydiscuss now.
That that's important stuff,because if they're gonna be
there they need to be protectedhmm, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (01:05:19):
I love that you were able to check that out.
And then she is an incrediblewoman.
I'd love to see what she's doneand I I appreciated.
The one thing that I've Learnedthat I didn't know that I was
gonna appreciate so much aboutbeing able to jump in and and
host this podcast was how much Ilove getting to learn from
other people like her and likeyourself.
(01:05:40):
It's been Something that thatkeeps me very, very excited
about the next conversation andthe next person I get to know.
Speaker 2 (01:05:47):
so Well, and next time I'm in Fort Collins, my
wife which, seeing mygranddaughter graduate, I
presume in two more yearsContacting we can go downtown
and have a cup of coffee, and ifyou want to go climb Longs Peak
, we're Rocky Mountain NationalPark.
I'm up for that too.
Speaker 1 (01:06:09):
I will take you up on that and Definitely definitely
go with you at very least to getthe cup of coffee, and if
you're up for Longs Peak, let'smake it happen.
I just did that one a coupleweeks ago and and it's a good
one.
Speaker 2 (01:06:23):
I was at 11,900 feet About two weeks ago in the
Lizard head wilderness south oftelluride.
But the weather turned bad.
We got rained off the damnmountain.
So we headed back to the carand went to National Monument
(01:06:44):
down in New Mexico and got warm.
Speaker 1 (01:06:47):
Hmm, well, and for those that that don't don't know
, because I have the visual ofSL, sent me a picture A week ago
to check in about this and hewas like hey, just finished up
this rock climbing trip and Ihad to stop and show my wife
this picture because it's him onthis side of this mountain with
a buddy like roped in.
So it's when he says climbing,they were doing some legitimate
(01:07:11):
rock climbing up the side of hismountain is very, very
impressive.
Speaker 2 (01:07:15):
It's called.
They call that via for redder.
There's via for redder thereand tell you, rad, there's a via
for redder challenge course inUre.
And so Spend a couple hundreddollars and and you're hooked in
with cables and hooks, whichspent about four hours on the
(01:07:35):
mountain and you got pretty goodtow holes so you got to be able
to lift your own weight, whichwas a challenge, but we got it
done.
And yeah it's.
But if you're afraid of heights, it's a thousand foot drop, so
you don't want anything to dowith it.
Speaker 1 (01:07:51):
Yeah, it's very impressive that that you're able
to and and please, definitelylet me know the next time you're
in four columns I'd love tograb a cup of coffee with the
end.
Know that you probably saw,when we met the first time, my
two kids running in thebackground.
So, yeah, you'll probably getto meet them the next time that
(01:08:12):
you guys come to town.
Yeah, I look forward to it.
All right, so thank you so muchfor taking some time today.
Speaker 2 (01:08:21):
It's time for a bowling now.
Speaker 1 (01:08:24):
Yeah, yes, sir, always staying busy just as
practicing what you preach.
I love it.
Amen let's talk to you today.
You too.
Welcome to another episode.
I'm here today with SL Waller.
He is a Vietnam veteran, formerUS Army.
How are you doing, SL?
Speaker 2 (00:11):
I'm fine here in McKinney, Texas.
Speaker 1 (00:14):
And McKinney, texas, and I met you here in Fort
Collins, colorado, where I live.
I know you were here visitingyour granddaughter, is that
correct?
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Yes, granddaughter at Colorado State Starting her
second year, so we came by thereafter we spent a week over in
Warner Park.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
Wow, man, I'm really grateful for you taking the time
.
I know I randomly grabbed youon the side, but I saw your
Vietnam veteran and I justwanted to hear a little bit
about your story and Iappreciate you taking some time
to jump on today, my pleasure.
So what did it look like beforeyou even joined?
(00:56):
I always like to ask peoplelike why did you join the
military, what did it look likefor you?
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Well, I was actually living in Albuquerque, new
Mexico, when I joined.
I had been there for well abouta year and a half, almost two
years.
My dad got transferred fromAmarillo, texas, to Albuquerque,
new Mexico right in the middleof my senior year of high school
.
But I was ready to go dosomething different anyway, so I
(01:25):
didn't mind going toAlbuquerque and finishing up my
last half of my senior year, andafter a year and a half of not
accomplishing much other thanpumping gas at a gas station and
working on old cars, I decidedI needed to change.
So I went downtown Albuquerqueone day and the Marine deal was
(01:49):
too far to walk, so I joined theArmy.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
Fair enough.
So they just had the greatplacement.
Let's get it a little bitcloser.
Yeah, all right, and what yeardid you join in?
Speaker 2 (02:06):
I joined in November, actually November 10th 1964.
I think that's almost VeteransDay.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
That is.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
And that's when you went off to basic.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
Yeah, I went to Fort Polk, louisiana, on a train.
Actually they didn't have manyairplanes that went from
Albuquerque to Louisiana, so wewere two or three days on a
train and back in those days thesergeants that met you at the
train station were pretty scaryguys, but that was early
(02:43):
mid-November so it was colder inLouisiana than I expected and
we got to go home for Christmasand that was a welcome break
from basic training.
And then for Benning, georgia,for Infantry Field Radio
Mechanics School, and I heardthese crazy guys in the morning
(03:09):
at five o'clock running aroundin circles hollering airborne,
airborne, and I didn't know whatthey did.
But when I asked around I foundout that they were earning $55
a month extra for jumping out ofairplanes.
I said, well, hell, I can dothat.
Double my pay.
I was making $78.50 a month asa private then, and so I was
(03:33):
right there at Fort Benning, thedeparture for school.
So first five airplanes I wasever in I jumped out of.
I had never been in an airplanebefore.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
Wow, so that's impressive.
So you're just your first fiveever.
Those were the ones you werelike.
Well, I'm going up, I'm goingto jump out of it.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
Yeah, and.
I didn't know what landing wasin an airplane until I went home
on leave one time.
So yeah, it's an interestingthing.
But there were C119s left overfrom Korean War, so we were glad
to get out of them actually.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
Okay, well, I think they still keep that tradition
alive.
I think we had all the aircraftI was ever in was left over
from the Vietnam War and it wasdefinitely.
We always joked that if itwasn't.
You know, if you're in ahelicopter that wasn't making
some weird noise or leaking somefluids, that's when you knew
you had problems.
(04:30):
As long as it was leaking ormaking weird noises, you're good
.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
Yeah, we jumped, I made 18.
Yeah, I made 18 jumps.
Yeah, we jumped out of the oldC119, of course, in jump school.
But then at Fort Bragg, northCarolina, where I went, I was
82nd airborne there for about ayear and when I got to Fort
(04:56):
Bragg, north Carolina, they hadjust left for the invasion.
They sent two battalions toDominican Republic to prevent
another communist rebel guy totake over the Dominican Republic
.
So we took care of that and westayed down there for six months
.
So we got from.
In my case I went over downthere in June, got home in
(05:21):
December and we prevented thatcommunist takeover of the
Dominican Republic.
Not too many people rememberthat war.
It even had a operation namedPower Point.
I think it was or Power orsomething.
We have a little high schoolannual looking thing that
(05:44):
describes what that war wasabout.
But it was a short war but wewere getting combat pay for six
months, so it was cool.
So that's another 65 a month.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
Okay, so he's tripled , tripled everything really
quickly.
Speaker 2 (05:59):
What was it like?
Speaker 1 (06:00):
down there in the Dominican Republic.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
Hot, sticky.
We lived under a bridge forthree months, the Duarte Bridge.
The rebels were across thebridge and an old I think it was
an old cotton mill or somethinglike that and we were on the
other side of the bridge andthey take pot shots at us all
night long.
So you learn real quick not togo out to the front of the area
(06:28):
to go to the bathroom at night,because they would take a shot
at you if they saw you.
But eventually we took care ofthem and we did not jump into
the Dominican Republic.
The Marines, thank you, tookthe airport and then we flew
C-130s in.
Okay, we thought we were allokay when we got back to Fort
(06:56):
Bragg, north Carolina.
We weren't going to have to goto Vietnam because we had
already done our war for sixmonths and we were wrong.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
So and did you see a lot of conflict there?
I mean, were there asignificant amount of firefights
?
What did it look like for you?
Speaker 2 (07:13):
Well, the fighting only lasted about three weeks.
We killed about 300 of them andthey killed about 30 of our
guys and the rest of it waspolice duty.
Basically, our particular groupof battalion was responsible
for guarding the access of thebridge coming in and out of the
(07:38):
San Domingo.
And the rebels, their idea ofarmored personnel was impolos,
chevrolet impolos, with nowindows, with machine guns
sticking out of me, so it was aninteresting day.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
Yeah, that's very interesting, and so you were
there six months.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
I lived there six months from.
June until December, and theneverybody came home.
Actually, the Navy brought ushome on old flat bottom LSDs or
LSTs, I don't know what the Navycalls them, but we were glad to
get back to North Carolina.
And then, five months later,they started sending us to
(08:24):
Vietnam, to the 173rd AirborneBrigade, who had actually come
from Okinawa.
The 173rd Airborne Brigade, theentire brigade, moved to
Vietnam in May of 65.
So when we started replacingthem in May of 66, we were
(08:44):
replacing the guys that had donetheir 12 months and they were
coming home, or we were overthere replacing them one at a
time, 10 at a time, whatever inthe place right near the Benoit
Air Base, which became thelargest air base in Vietnam,
still is.
(09:04):
I guess it's not ours now,though.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
No, yeah Well, so y'all were essentially just
dropping in and replacing peoplethat were.
They did 12 months and then youwere dropping in to replace
them.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
Yeah, most, most of the Army guys were 12 month
service in Vietnam and you hopeyou lived the 12 months and you
came home yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
What was that like?
Because for us we would drop inand replace a whole unit, and
it sounds like it was more of ahandful of people would go in
and just replace a few people.
So you weren't actually withall of your buddies that you had
trained up with all the peoplein your unit state side that you
knew.
Speaker 2 (09:49):
Yeah, the best example of that was Forrest Gump
.
Him and his friend Bubba inthat movie were replacements,
and so they had to learn fromthe guys who had been there for
a year or six months or two days, and so that's the way that war
(10:10):
was run until 1973, when weturned it over to the South
Vietnamese.
Speaker 1 (10:19):
And so would you say, and I would have never thought
to bring up Forrest Gump, butsince you did, clearly you've
seen it was at a pretty accuraterepresentation of a lot of
things that were, that werehappening over there.
Speaker 2 (10:34):
A lot of people asked me that in the last 50 years
and I think the answer is someof us had it easier than others
and some of us had it harder.
I was probably in the middle ofthat continuum.
A whole lot of guys had it alot worse than I did up north,
(10:56):
but we were only about 100clicks north of Saigon, so we
were going into the Arn Trianglearound Tay Nhan and everything
north of the Ben Wire base tokeep the enemy at bay, which
worked okay until the TetOffensive in January 30th or 68.
(11:22):
But I was already home incollege by then.
But you learn from the guys inthat part of that movie that's
what they were doing, learningfrom the guys in front of them,
because some of those guys thatI replaced had left Okinawa, had
been their career guys, who hadbeen their whole careers in
(11:44):
Okinawa.
Because Okinawa became a largeUS Army military deal after
World War II.
So they created the 173rdAirborne Brigade, I think in
1963 maybe, and so they're now.
Last I heard they were in Italy.
Speaker 1 (12:04):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
That brigade.
Speaker 1 (12:08):
So what is it you mentioned?
You get asked that a lot overthe last 50 years.
I'm curious to ask you what doyou not get asked that you wish
everybody knew about?
Speaker 2 (12:23):
Well, one of the questions they always ask is how
many people did you see die, orhow many did you kill, or those
kind of questions, and mytypical answer is you know,
probably the answer is too manyof both.
We lost 58,000 troops inVietnam from 1964, basically all
(12:47):
the way to 1973.
And then we left there in ahurry, as you recall, with the
embassy in Saigon and.
North Vietnamese took overwithin 24 hours, just like
Afghanistan just happened.
So history repeats itself.
But as we, as you know, weweren't welcomed home by and
(13:18):
large Because of the late 60s.
Our country was in a mess withanti-war protesters and the LBJ
deal and Robert McNamara, theSecretary of Defense, who wanted
numbers.
He wanted body count.
So we'd give him body count.
(13:39):
We don't really know if it wastrue or not, but you say well,
how many did you get today?
And he said well, I think I got20, if you're out on patrol
this last in three weeks, ormaybe you get, well, I need more
.
Okay, I did 50.
So that's the way that war went.
Because there was no internet orcell phones, we stayed over
there 12 months until we got tocome home.
(14:02):
So the Westmoreland and theother generals could not do
their jobs because thepoliticians wouldn't let them do
it.
But the Vietnamese people arewonderful people.
They've been fighting for theirindependence for hundreds of
years.
(14:22):
They fought the Japanese, theyfought the Chinese, they fought
the French and they fought usand they beat them all.
So lesson learned stay out ofcivil wars.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
That is, yes, a great lesson, and I think about that.
And when I ask you too, whatdoes it make you think?
Because you mentioned historyrepeating itself, because I
still have questions to ask youabout your time in, but just you
mentioned everything withAfghanistan.
What thoughts do you have aboutbeing able to?
You saw it happen with yourtime in and seeing it with our
generation.
Speaker 2 (15:00):
Yeah, the domino theory that's how we got into
Vietnam.
The domino theory that I don'tknow who started it, but LBJ
says we don't want a communistrunning Vietnam.
And now they do and they'redoing a pretty good job.
I've been three years in a newhouse here and my right-armed
(15:22):
fence came from Vietnam.
A lot of my clothing comes fromVietnam and so they're a great
trading partner right now andthey have a good country.
We have a good country, as goodas it can be right now,
politics as it are.
But they were people who hadfought off all those other
(15:47):
invasions to their country, andthe French in particular.
It was Saigon.
It was called the Paris of theOrient, I think, and the French
thought they were running thingsthere.
And Ho Chi Minh had a differentidea and he was educated both
in Russia and the US, so he knewthat the hearts and minds of
(16:09):
the North Vietnamese people wentover and he was right.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
Well, I always love hearing comparisons about it and
somebody mentioned and.
Then there's a book, theInfinite Game, where he talks
about just what you're fightingfor and they actually use that
as an example.
Whereas other countries that goin are fighting to win, whereas
they were fighting to survive,for them it was a survival thing
(16:42):
.
What was it like for you toexperience that?
Must have been a really long 12months.
What was that like for you?
Speaker 2 (16:58):
Counting Santa Domingo for the six months in
Vietnam for 12 months.
I went in when I was age 19.
So my 20th birthday and my 21stbirthday were both in combat,
earning combat pay, and we werejust doing our jobs.
We volunteered.
(17:20):
I did volunteer.
As you know, more than half thetroops were drafted, so they're
in for two years and here usvolunteers were in for three
years and in fact when I joinedI didn't even know for sure how
many years I was in for I justwanted to go do whatever I
(17:41):
wanted to do in the Army.
It's just you're doing your job, you're out of the politics.
Because I didn't understand thepolitics.
All we were told was Ho ChiMinh was a bad guy and he was
trying to take over SouthVietnam and LBJ didn't want him
(18:02):
to.
So we were trying to preventthat takeover.
And that was old news for theNorth Vietnamese.
They had heard that story andthey thought they had a better
idea politically of how to runthat country.
And now they're doing a goodjob of it.
(18:23):
So the soldiers were just doingour jobs.
We weren't asked about thepolitics, we were just told to
go on this operation and 12months I was over there we did.
I think it was 12 or 13different operations that lasted
anywhere from two weeks tothree weeks.
You'd go into the iron triangle, you'd take over an area.
(18:45):
You might find some trouble,you might not, and then you'd
come back and drink beer and eatsteaks and enjoy life and take
a shower.
Then a week later you'd jumpback on the helicopter to Huey's
.
Back then there were Huey's andyou'd jump back in the
helicopter and go out.
So you were out in the bush twoweeks, maybe sometimes three
(19:11):
weeks, sometimes only a week.
Most of the time it was in andout on a helicopter, but a few
times we convoied in.
But there aren't a lot of roadsin Vietnam.
That Highway 1 was still there.
Of course, when people go backthere on vacation, a lot of
Vietnam vets do.
I have not or do I plan to Notopposed to it.
(19:33):
I just don't see any benefit.
There's things that would havechanged.
Obviously, in 55 years thevillage I was near wouldn't even
be recognizable.
It was just a small Vietnamesevillage and we took it over and
built an airport there BenoitAir Base.
Speaker 1 (19:55):
And so I mean it's shocking to me you talk about
just doing your job and itreally is giving me a moment of
pause.
I love that you have thatoutlook on it.
What was it like for yougetting out?
I know you said because thatwas a very different experience,
(20:15):
I think, than the generationand then our war that we had to
deal with what was it likegetting back from Vietnam?
Speaker 2 (20:25):
Well, you recall, short.
If you had a week left, you'rereally short.
The short you could sit on theedge of a matchbox and your feet
would dangle.
If you're short six months,you're not very short.
If you got six more months inthe bush, you got 50-50 chance
(20:46):
coming on the live.
So being short was a good thing.
So in fact I came home in May5th and I went out on an
operation in March and April andI didn't want to, but my job
was as a field infantry radiomechanic.
(21:07):
I had to keep the radiosworking, but when a battle
started up you weren't worriedabout fixing radios, you were
worried about defending yourposition and staying alive.
So we were glad to be short andon our way home, but we had, I
(21:32):
think, camaraderie with thosethat are still there.
You had to continue to do yourjob for the whole 12 months,
whether you like it or not, andthat represented only about 30%
of the people in Vietnam.
It was a support war.
There was six or seven peoplesupporting what?
(21:54):
25% or so of the soldiers whowere actually doing the battling
that needed.
You needed ammo, you neededfood, you needed water, you
needed Agent Orange and all thatother stuff the Air Force.
We only made one pursuit combatjump over there in February of
(22:19):
67.
And we were happy to do that.
And some general I think hislast name was Dean, general Dean
.
He wanted a combat jump ribbonon his chest so we jumped about
800 and guys I think it was 820people jumping out of C-130s
(22:40):
near a place called Tay Ninh inFebruary of 67.
In about 30 minutes we put800-plus guys on the ground to
block a group of NorthVietnamese regulars from going
into Cambodia.
So that was in February of 67,and I was due to go home in May,
(23:00):
so I was not too excited aboutdoing that one.
The Air Force did their job.
They took us out there anddropped 800 of us on the ground
and that didn't stop the NorthVietnamese.
They all went to Cambodiaquickly through one of our
companies and most of thatcompany was lost.
Speaker 1 (23:24):
What was that Phono in?
Speaker 2 (23:26):
Sh suspected.
Speaker 1 (23:28):
Yeah, what was it like to do to actually be on a
combat jump?
Speaker 2 (23:35):
Scary, had more gear than you normally have.
You have more ammo than younormally have.
It was basically a short drugzone, so it was kind of like a
rice paddy, but not as deepwater, and the jump went quite
well.
(23:55):
There was pictures I have ofone guy that got caught in a one
large tree and he hung up therein that tree for a while.
But the real battle started.
As they were, the NorthVietnamese regulars were heading
into Cambodia and there was alot of talk about that
(24:18):
particular.
The 173rd Airborne was pleasedto do it.
It was the second battalion ofthe 503rd that jumped in that
day.
There's been no other battalionjump, I don't think in any of
our wars since then.
Speaker 1 (24:38):
I know you mentioned it that a general wanted to get
his combat jump wings, and it'sinteresting how time that's also
repeats itself, because I'veheard many of stories of just
even throughout when I've seenit where officers are trying to
(24:58):
get certain things knocked outthat are rarefeeds in combat.
Speaker 2 (25:04):
Yeah, he wanted that deal and he got it.
I think he claimed he was thefirst guy on the first plane,
but I'm not sure I believe that.
Speaker 1 (25:18):
It's fascinating to me how, being separated by 40
years, how similar some of thisstuff is for our time, how
people chasing little accoladesand war time.
So did you actually jump downinto combat or did you all jump
(25:40):
into it and patrol over tocombat?
Speaker 2 (25:44):
They were shooting at us as we were coming down, but
they weren't very good shots.
I'm not aware that anybody gotkilled in the air, and when
you're jumping in at somewherearound a thousand feet, you
don't have very long to thinkabout it anyway, right.
Speaker 1 (26:05):
Well, but it's still.
I mean that's got to be justvery scary to jump into people
shooting at you.
Speaker 2 (26:13):
Yeah, if you change your mind about jumping out of
C-130, there's a very largefellow in the back of the plane
called Jumpmaster that's willingto help you out.
Speaker 1 (26:24):
I think that also hasn't changed in the army as
well.
And so you did that.
And what was it like returningback in back, to getting back
stateside, because you did yourtwo tours of combat duty.
What was it like coming back tothe states?
Speaker 2 (26:48):
You know I don't guess I understood what was
going on, particularly the waythe war was going.
Particularly the worst of it, Ithink, was in California
because of the liberal nature oftheir politics out there.
That was true now and it's trueback then.
And they had protesters thathad a permanent job, if you call
(27:12):
it a job of making sure we werenot welcome home in our
military uniforms.
And to the Oakland, sanFrancisco.
Most of us came back throughthat Oakland terminal, as I
recall there was some base nearthere I guess I really don't
(27:34):
remember the name of it, but Iwent to the.
Whatever the airport was it hadto be San Francisco or Oakland,
I guess to get back to theDallas, texas area and I
personally don't recall beingabused or I've heard stories of
(27:56):
guys that were called babykillers and spit on them and all
that stuff.
And the protesters were backthen we called them liberal
hippies and they believed whatthey believed and the 60s were a
terrible, terrible time for ourcountry and so we were not
welcome home by that group.
(28:17):
My mom and dad were glad I wasback home in Amarillo, texas,
but I didn't pay much attentionto that stuff.
I just got on another airplane,probably out of Dallas to get
to Amarillo, and as I recall itwas a propeller airplane from
(28:38):
Dallas because when I got to theAmarillo Texas airport, which
back then was a B-52 sack baseof the way it's still the
longest, widest runway in theUSA actually in Amarillo Texas
because they flew B-52s and itwas a backup landing site for
(28:59):
the space shuttle but we landedthere and.
I found my way to home anddinner and see my family again.
It was a good day.
Speaker 1 (29:15):
So I mean, you tell it so nonchalantly and maybe
that's how it is, because Iguess when we hear, we see stuff
, we hear about the stories ofhow bad it was for several
people coming back, it seemslike you got back, you hopped on
another plane, went back homeand just started living your
(29:36):
life.
Speaker 2 (29:38):
I did.
In fact, the next day my dadand I went and bought me a new
Oldsmobile 442 hot rod car, fouron the floor and a hot rod.
And that was what a lot ofVietnam vets saved their money
because, remember, we're makingcombat pay, paratrooper pay,
jump pay.
So I was nailing down about$350 a month, so I was rolling
(30:04):
in money and most of us saved up$2,000, $3,000.
So I bought that new car andthat's where life really began
For me.
Speaker 1 (30:22):
How so.
Speaker 2 (30:27):
After leaving Albuquerque joining the Army, I
knew what I didn't want to do,because the Army had offered to
re-up me and send me to Germany.
I said no, thank you, I'll bein Fort Hood Texas, if you need
me.
And so I said I'm not going toGermany and I'll be in Amarillo.
So about three or four weekslater they sent me orders for
(30:49):
Fort Hood, Texas, and I spentthe last three or four months
and then I got out like twomonths early to go to college.
So I knew that was a smartthing to do.
My dad had tried to, mom anddad had tried to send me to
college back in Albuquerqueafter high school, but I only
(31:12):
made it for six weeks.
I found out that you actuallyhad to go to class and I chose
not to, and they chose to ask meto leave the University of New
Mexico.
So I was a Lobo for just ashort period before I joined the
Army.
But two really good thingshappened.
(31:35):
I got to Dallas, Texas, fromAmarillo to see my sister.
She hooked me up with a blinddate for the woman who's right
over here in our living room,who I met about six days after I
was home from Vietnam, andwe've been married 55 years now.
Speaker 1 (32:01):
Wow, well, congratulations on that.
That's a very, very impressivething that you don't hear about
too often.
Speaker 2 (32:10):
Well, that you know.
I said two things.
The 442 Ovenmobile was onething, but the much better thing
that lasted a lot longer wasPhyllis.
Speaker 1 (32:23):
That's incredible.
You, just six days afterwards,you got set up on a blind date.
Speaker 2 (32:29):
Yeah, my sister.
She lived here as opposed tobeing in Amarillo with the rest
of the family, and so it was areally good thing and I spent
about three months down FortHood, Texas, driving back and
forth to date her and six monthslater we were married and got a
(32:50):
couple of wonderful kids nowand five grandkids.
So all of that worked good.
She gave me a reason to changemy outlook on life.
I decided pumping gas at 17cents a gallon in a gas station
probably wasn't a good career.
(33:11):
So thanks to her, I stayed incollege at the University of
Texas at Arlington for three anda half years and graduated, Got
a job and worked for Xerox for34 years and retired at age 60
and living in a good life herenow.
(33:31):
But if it wasn't for hercapturing me and me capturing
her there in the summer of 1967,life would not have been as
good.
Speaker 1 (33:48):
And that's really powerful.
And you said that, giving you areason and a different outlook.
I know you said just pumpinggas for 17 cents an hour.
Speaker 2 (34:03):
No 17 cents a gallon.
Speaker 1 (34:05):
A gallon.
Okay, and what was that?
Speaker 2 (34:09):
transition.
Speaker 1 (34:15):
That has definitely not remained the same.
What outlook did you have priorto that?
I know that that was quite sometime ago.
Speaker 2 (34:26):
Yeah, that's a good question.
I don't guess I had an outlook.
What's a guy going to do?
He's not doing war anymore,he's not educated, he's 21 years
old.
I turned 22 during that time,just before we married, I turned
(34:47):
22.
And I had no plan but Going tocollege and deciding I wanted to
be More like my dad, I guess ataxpayer, a father, a
(35:08):
grandfather, a successful person.
That that's something to shootfor.
And a lot of Vietnam vetsWeren't lucky.
They didn't have that.
In the other movies you see Withwhoever, all the other movies
(35:30):
about guys who come back andDon't behave right, don't go to
college or don't get a job orWell it's, it's a, it's kind of
a, an odd thing, but it givesyou a purpose For life.
(35:51):
You know, because I was raisedcorrectly.
My mom and dad get a, did areally good job of raising me,
but I lost track there somewhereBefore I joined the army and
the army gave me discipline,give them that and it gave me A
(36:15):
chance to see hey, maybe I couldgo to college, because before
the one try I did didn't lastthe 6 weeks, so College was and
getting married and Then 3 yearslater we started having
children and it was all good andA lot of that just kind of
(36:39):
happens.
I'm not pretending I planned itthat way, but it's a really
good thing that it happened.
Speaker 1 (36:49):
So and I know you said you didn't plan it yet it
was a really good thing, and Iknow you referenced to a lot of
people that came back fromVietnam didn't have that purpose
.
Why do you think it is thatthat some people find it and
some people don't find it ordidn't find it back then?
Speaker 2 (37:07):
Yeah, if I had the answer to that, I could write a
book Like a lot of money but Ithink Somewhere along the way
you have to have someone in yourlife that helps you Get
direction.
And even though my folks Wereglad for me to come back, they
(37:33):
had asked me to leave theirhouse Before that Because I was
not An upright citizen back in62, 63.
After high school, and theychose to escort me out of the
house and pack my bags for me.
(37:54):
I didn't even get a suitcase,but I realized later in life.
It hurt my mom more to run meoff, but it's exactly what I
deserve.
And maybe the answer is theother guys that I was hanging
out with an Albuquerque.
One of them became a Specialforces guy in Vietnam same time
(38:20):
I was and I spoke at his funeraljust about a year ago.
Agent Orange killed him.
It just took 55 years to killhim.
Agent Orange was what theysprayed on us over there and
they're paying for it now, butit gave him Parkinson's and the
(38:42):
good news is it took Parkinson'sabout 10 or 12 years to kill
him.
And one of the other guys whostill alive.
He didn't go to war but he wasWent in the Air Force.
He was smarter than us.
He went to the Air Force and hehe was a mechanic for how to
(39:06):
Fix the ejection seats andairplanes, so if the pilot had
to eject, he knew how to makesure that was working properly
so they would throw him out ofthe airplane correctly.
And One of the guys Didn't goto the military at all because
he had asthma and I spoke at hisfuneral to actually about five
(39:30):
years ago, but he just had anabnormal cancer, but he had a
family and Well, a good life andtwo kids and successful and the
other guy.
The last one Was a drug addict,basically, and he died after
(39:52):
about Doing drugs that rightthere in Albuquerque.
So I think it's luck of thedraw.
You know, you're either.
Maybe you're lucky and you haverich Family.
You picked your mom and dad.
Well, my folks were not rich,but they were.
(40:17):
They had four of us kids and mydad worked for Phillips
petroleum for 44 years and helived to be 88 and I'm 78 now.
So I think I'm going to beathim out of the deal.
I think I'm getting more than 88years out of, but I think, to
(40:38):
answer your question, I thinkit's luck of the draw.
You just hope you you hook upwith somebody that gives you a
good direction, and I did.
Speaker 1 (40:50):
Right, I love that your wife's name is Phyllis.
Yes you said Phyllis.
Oh well, I'm happy that she is.
It was really nice to meet heras well.
I know I interrupted your walkthrough old town To set this up,
but it's I'm happy to hear thatshe was able to give you that
(41:12):
purpose.
It's, it's interesting to seeall the similarities with even
your.
A lot of the stuff that youreferenced and talk about with
going to combat and, and I can'thelp but feel like so many
similar things.
You know, because right now wehave people that get out and you
hear about people struggling,people talking about that, and
(41:34):
Do you pay much attention tothat?
Do you hear about all of thestuff that's going on with
veterans getting out these days?
Speaker 2 (41:40):
You know we hadn't talked about it yet.
But After college, for about 20years, I didn't talk about the
military or the army or Vietnamor any of that, nor do very many
Vietnam vets.
It's only been in the last 10,12 years that I've been more
(42:04):
involved with the veterans group.
Part of that's because I wentto the VA veterans hospital up
in Bonham, texas, neighbor ofmine.
Back in I think it was 1992 heand I went to the VA hospital in
(42:25):
Dallas.
It was the last chance theysaid to sign up for VA Our
rights or whatever our rightswere at the VA hospital.
So I went with him, took my DD214 and and we went down there
and said, okay, now Members ofthe VA, but what does that
(42:46):
really mean?
Well, we started finding outthat it doesn't mean much if you
have.
In my case, I worked for Xeroxand I had good medical care
insurance, so I didn't need theVA for anything.
But as I got older I suddenlydiscovered that the government
(43:08):
decided Agent Orange was notgood for us.
So I got more involved.
I joined the Vietnam VeteransAssociation here in McKinney,
texas, and became aware thatAgent Orange was like my buddy
in Albuquerque.
I told you I spoke at hisfuneral.
It's a silent killer.
So just recently I've submittedunder the new PACT Act P-A-C-T.
(43:33):
The PACT Act says the veterancan submit a request for
disability under the PACT Actonline.
And so I did that about a monthago for two problems
hypertension and colon cancer.
And they said oh, you're right,agent Orange is presumed to
(43:57):
have caused that, but medicationtakes care of that and you're
not, it's not killing you rightnow.
It'll probably kill you later,but not right now.
So they said well, we'll saythat we caused it with the Agent
Orange, but you get zerodisability and that's okay
because I don't need their money.
(44:17):
But it's good that theyacknowledge that if I was to die
of colon cancer or hypertension, then my wife Phyllis would be
approved for about 1,800 a monthfor the rest of her life.
(44:37):
So that's the advantage, that'sthe payoff, I guess.
And now I have submitted onefor skin cancer, which is, oddly
enough, not one of the onesthat's approved for Agent Orange
being caused.
That's what they sprayed on.
(44:58):
But if you get other kinds ofcancer, like colon cancer and
all it does, and prostate cancerthe same thing.
So they're doing a better job,I think, in getting more Vietnam
vets involved and working withthe VA.
I've taken two or three of mybuddies up there neighbors, and
(45:20):
got them signed up.
Some of them embraced it.
But you have to learn to playthe game, the process.
You have to do it their way,and I do.
I've been going to the one inBonham, texas, every year for
about 12, 13 years for an annualcheckup to maintain my Agent
(45:41):
Orange status.
So they're doing a better job,but it took them probably too
many years to figure that outthat they were.
And now in Afghanistan and Iraqit's the same thing for the
burn pits.
This whole PACTAC is takingcare of the Afghan and Iraq
(46:04):
veterans that may have beeninjured by the burn pits the
silent killers I think they callthem.
Speaker 1 (46:16):
Yep, I'm happy to hear that you were about to go
get signed up for it.
I hate that it took so long andpart of me doesn't like that
they haven't that they're makingyou wait for it.
I am happy that you're able toget it signed up.
Speaker 2 (46:38):
Well, you know that's not a terrible thing because a
lot of people have colon canceror cancer spots in your once you
get old like me after age 50,you go to get a colon usk beer
year or two years or five yearsand they have little polyps on
them.
But when they have somethingcalled squamish, the result is a
(47:00):
squamish cancer, then itqualifies as an age and orange
caused cancer spot.
But they cut it off and it'sreally no problem right now.
But they can come back, that'sthe issue.
It might eventually get you, butyou don't really know.
And the same thing withprostate cancer and Parkinson's.
(47:20):
You don't really know if theage and orange caused it, but at
least they're saying now thatit does.
And in fact I had a neighborjust last month that passed away
.
He was in Vietnam the same timeI was and he had I think his
primary was colon cancer, but hehad PTSD and other things too,
(47:43):
so he was 100% disabled, whichin Texas that's a big deal,
because you don't pay propertytax then.
So that's something.
Speaker 1 (47:54):
So earlier you mentioned that you got out and
that it was pretty common foryour generation after getting
out, that you do spend 20 yearsnever talking about the time in
the military or your time ofservice.
Why do you think it was?
Why did you not talk about itfor 20 years?
Speaker 2 (48:18):
I think there's still a lot of.
Even in the 70s, after the warended 75 basically, when we
escaped from Saigon on the roofof the embassy there's still a
lot of feeling that soldiersthere it wasn't that we lost a
(48:42):
war, it was that you nevershould have been there.
And the liberals, I don't think, understand that we weren't
there because we wanted to goover there, we were just doing
our job.
So I don't know, wasn'tnecessary to talk about it.
(49:04):
I do recall, even at Xerox for34 years, when somebody would
say this is a bad thing that'shappening at Xerox and this
meeting or this event'shappening, my common words were
oh hell, I've been shot at, thatdoesn't worry me.
(49:24):
So I think part of it's theattitude that you could take
that says this is not a big deal, that's happening at Xerox,
whatever it is or any otherlittle catastrophe.
I've had people shooting at me.
So this is going to be easy,getting over this other easy
stuff.
So I think that's the copingmechanism.
(49:49):
I used In Vietnam, one of thephrases that you heard in a lot
of those Vietnam movies ain't nobig deal, ain't no thing.
I don't know if you guys inAfghanistan and Iraq said that a
lot, but I have buddies whohave sons who are over there.
(50:11):
There's something similar, Iguess, but maybe not those exact
words.
It don't mean nothing.
Speaker 1 (50:18):
Oh yeah, I just really appreciate your ability
to take that approach to it.
Did you struggle with?
Because you spent 20 years nottalking about it?
Maybe because it wasn't asaccepted back then?
One thing I see as common nowis a lot of veterans talk about
(50:43):
how they get out and theystruggle to get back in and
integrate back with civiliansand there seems to be this
barrier there.
Did you have that or do youfeel like that was common for
veterans back then?
Speaker 2 (50:55):
You know the three and a half years I was at
college at the University ofTexas at Arlington.
I never talked about mymilitary experience because it
wasn't going to gain me anythingand there's still a lot of
protesting in the streets andall that business.
So I just put it in the backpocket and didn't mess with it
(51:20):
For about six months.
I was a bartender during thattime in college at the VFW Club
in Irving, texas, working atnight, which Phyllis didn't
appreciate very much being thebartender down there.
But the veterans there weretypically Korean War and World
(51:44):
War II veterans and I was okaywith it because I was serving
them beer and liquor, you know.
But I think that we justweren't.
We had no parades, as yourecall.
(52:07):
We weren't welcomed home.
I think the real change happenedwhen, after Iraq and
Afghanistan and the parades thatwere all over our country.
That was a good thing becauseit made the citizens in this
country realize that those guysare just over there doing their
(52:28):
jobs US Army, marines, air Force, whatever they are
no-transcript.
You can't deny them theirparade.
You shouldn't deny them theirparade Because they did their
jobs.
They might have lost the war,which you could debate, but we
(52:52):
were prevented from winning ourwar.
But the truth is, in Vietnam,you weren't going to win a
long-term civil war, and I thinkwe learned that in Afghanistan
too.
Those tribal communities inthose countries, particularly
Afghanistan and Iraq, weretribal civil wars and they're
(53:17):
actually going to be back inpower, and that's exactly what
happened.
Speaker 1 (53:25):
I think that and you mentioned something as you were
talking about it how you were,you didn't understand the
politics of it, you were justdoing your job in the military.
And I think that when I wasreturning back, I did the
initial invasion in Iraq in 03.
And I remember my flight back.
We stopped in Germany and thenwe took a flight from Germany
(53:46):
into Baltimore and I remember Iwas so nervous flying back in.
I remember just kept thinking Idon't need a parade, but if
somebody spits on me I'm goingto lose my mind.
You don't have to thank me, butbecause I just felt like I was
as a troop on the ground, it wasjust that You're just doing
(54:11):
wherever you're going, whereveryou're getting sent, is just
doing your job.
And I think that is one thingthat a lot of our society did
learn from your war going intoours, because I even had I've
talked to several liberals thatjust said it wasn't the troops,
and I think that was the onething that I was very
(54:31):
appreciative of that they wereable to actually learn and grow
from that in our society.
So I hated that you guys had todeal with that.
Speaker 2 (54:42):
Well, and other things changed too.
For 10 or 12 years ago, even atmy grandkids elementary school,
they had a veterans day, fourveterans day, and I would go
there with all three of mygrandkids here in this area and
(55:02):
I had two more out in Tennesseethat we couldn't get to for that
but the three here in McKinney,texas, all went to the same
elementary school and every yearthey have a veterans day parade
and about 50 or 60 of usveterans all kinds Vietnam, iraq
(55:23):
, afghanistan would come to theschool and have a little parade
and the kids would all waveflags and it was appreciated
because that was our parade andbetter late than never.
Speaker 1 (55:40):
Yeah, I'm very happy that you got one, because it was
.
I was wondering what it waslike to be coming back from
Vietnam.
Just because of all the stuffthat you hear about it.
I see so many similarities inyour time of service and just
the stories that you share aboutbeing in the military.
(56:05):
It's interesting.
Do you think it's any different?
Because it seems like right now, this day and age, that a lot
of our generations veteransstruggle just in general.
Do you feel that's gone up ordo you feel it's similar to when
you got out of Vietnam or gotout of the military?
Speaker 2 (56:23):
Well, we don't seem to be in a war right now.
However, I read the other daywe got 700 troops over in Syria
trying to kill bad guys, so Iknow they're still happening.
And I got a friend whose son wasa Delta Force operator.
I know there's still stuffgoing on, but most citizens
(56:48):
don't want to hear about that.
Most citizens want to hearabout the price of gas, the
price of groceries, and that'swhy the volunteer army versus an
inscripted army.
You know, I came up with atheory.
I don't know if I'm right ornot, but it's a good discussion.
(57:09):
Well, we did not win Korea,it's a stalemate.
We did not win Vietnam.
We withdrew and turned it overto the South Vietnamese, et
cetera, et cetera.
And I got to thinking my dadwas in the Philippines and
Phyllis's dad was in Europe.
In World War II.
(57:31):
Those soldiers didn't get tocome home until they won the war
.
Think about that a minute.
They didn't get to come homeafter one year.
They had to win the war to comehome.
That's a real good incentive towin the war, to get to come
home, and I don't know thatthat's repeatable in today's
(57:56):
world.
But of course I believe thatall the future wars will be
handled differently anyway, withdrones.
And there's a bunch of AirForce guys I met at the snow
skiing two years ago at the TaosNew Mexico ski area and these
(58:16):
guys are from Los Cruces, newMexico.
There's an Air Force base outthere and these guys are running
drones and dropping bombs in awartime situation from drones
and their Air Force pilots, ifyou will, and I'm not sure
(58:37):
that's the right way to do a war, but at least it takes the
human loss out of it.
Remember those guys in World WarII didn't get to come home
until they won the war.
Speaker 1 (58:53):
Right, and this prevents them from having to go
step into the actual war zone.
However, it just hit me toothat that would make you know,
if we never do that, then thewar.
Instead of going to anothercountry, that would probably
bring the wars closer to home.
So instead of watching it on TV, it's probably across the way.
Speaker 2 (59:17):
Boy, a drone can reach Tucson, Arizona or
wherever.
Yeah Right, that's scary stuff.
Speaker 1 (59:27):
It is, man.
I really appreciate you jumpingon and sharing your story and
just knowing that you've, I'dlove to hear about your life and
everything that you've beenable to do and accomplish and
knowing that this is put this upfor veterans to help them
transition to you know, hearother people's stories to learn
(59:51):
from.
What advice would you give aswe close this up?
What advice would you give toany veterans that are getting
out right now?
What would you tell them?
Speaker 2 (01:00:04):
I would.
I'd recommend any veteran inparticular to hang out with the
right kind of people.
If that's not your family, gofind some people to hang out
with, whether it's a militarygroup, vfw, vietnam veterans,
(01:00:26):
guys at the coffee shop.
Stay busy, don't let.
Don't let what happened thatone year or two years of your
life determine how you're goingto behave in the next five years
(01:00:48):
of your life.
Find someone to care about,whether it's a wife or a
significant other or friends, or, and stay busy.
As you saw what I sent you theother day, I've got some
backpacking buddies and we'vebeen backpacking in the Rocky
(01:01:10):
Mountains, taking a 120 milecanoe ride down the Yukon River.
Every September we go somewhereand we do an adventure, some of
which almost killed us, butthat's okay.
We took a river raft from Moabto Lake Powell, utah, climbed to
(01:01:33):
the top of five statesKingspeak in Utah, mount Whitney
in California, mount Hood.
This group of guys the twomoons hiking club is, and I know
about it because I'm the trailboss.
I plan the trips.
So get involved in something,whether it's a library or hiking
(01:01:56):
trips or canoeing or whateverfloats your boat.
Stay involved and get out ofyourself.
Get out there with others andhave some friends, have some
associates.
If you're lucky, you getmarried to a good woman, like I
did, and have a couple of kidsand five grandkids, and that's
(01:02:17):
really important because thegrandkids get to pick your
nursing home.
Speaker 1 (01:02:25):
What do you mean?
And I think I know.
But I love how you frame thisup community and staying busy,
but then you mentioned to getout of yourself what do you mean
by that?
Speaker 2 (01:02:37):
If you just stay thinking about for me, here's
what I did.
I've got Agent Orange or I'vegot this or that, and I don't
pretend to know what PTSD is.
I may have it and not know it,but you can't let that control
(01:03:00):
the rest of your life or it'lltake your life.
And I'm not educated enough toknow how to get rid of it.
But I do know that medicationis not the answer and that's
what the VA gives you for thatcrap.
They give you medication.
So I don't know if it'scounseling or therapy or what
(01:03:23):
the answer is, but there'seducated people that can
hopefully help withoutmedication.
Speaker 1 (01:03:39):
I.
You said there's other peopleeducated on it.
I don't think there's anybodymore educated on it than than
yourself, having done whatyou've did in the military and
Having lived this, this amazinglife that you have, knowing that
that anybody that's beenoverseas, anybody that was in
the military these days,definitely have nobody that I
(01:03:59):
know has done anything to thecaliber of what you've done in
the military.
And so I Take everything thatyou say very heavily and I think
it's Words of wisdom, to getout of yourself and Don't let it
take your life, because it will.
Speaker 2 (01:04:16):
So yeah, and I appreciate your Podcast, all the
things you do to get the wordout.
I've watched three or four ofthem now.
There's some good stuff there.
I'll particularly like Socialawareness of the woman you had
(01:04:39):
about we didn't have the rightarmor for women, mm-hmm, I mean
I never would have thought aboutthat because we had no women in
Vietnam other than nurses.
Yep and a couple of reporters,and so the world, the world has
changed and you know she, shewas a real pioneer to figure out
(01:05:00):
women need different kind ofclothing or armored for various
reasons which I can't reallydiscuss now.
That that's important stuff,because if they're gonna be
there they need to be protectedhmm, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (01:05:19):
I love that you were able to check that out.
And then she is an incrediblewoman.
I'd love to see what she's doneand I I appreciated.
The one thing that I've Learnedthat I didn't know that I was
gonna appreciate so much aboutbeing able to jump in and and
host this podcast was how much Ilove getting to learn from
other people like her and likeyourself.
(01:05:40):
It's been Something that thatkeeps me very, very excited
about the next conversation andthe next person I get to know.
Speaker 2 (01:05:47):
so Well, and next time I'm in Fort Collins, my
wife which, seeing mygranddaughter graduate, I
presume in two more yearsContacting we can go downtown
and have a cup of coffee, and ifyou want to go climb Longs Peak
, we're Rocky Mountain NationalPark.
I'm up for that too.
Speaker 1 (01:06:09):
I will take you up on that and Definitely definitely
go with you at very least to getthe cup of coffee, and if
you're up for Longs Peak, let'smake it happen.
I just did that one a coupleweeks ago and and it's a good
one.
Speaker 2 (01:06:23):
I was at 11,900 feet About two weeks ago in the
Lizard head wilderness south oftelluride.
But the weather turned bad.
We got rained off the damnmountain.
So we headed back to the carand went to National Monument
(01:06:44):
down in New Mexico and got warm.
Speaker 1 (01:06:47):
Hmm, well, and for those that that don't don't know
, because I have the visual ofSL, sent me a picture A week ago
to check in about this and hewas like hey, just finished up
this rock climbing trip and Ihad to stop and show my wife
this picture because it's him onthis side of this mountain with
a buddy like roped in.
So it's when he says climbing,they were doing some legitimate
(01:07:11):
rock climbing up the side of hismountain is very, very
impressive.
Speaker 2 (01:07:15):
It's called.
They call that via for redder.
There's via for redder thereand tell you, rad, there's a via
for redder challenge course inUre.
And so Spend a couple hundreddollars and and you're hooked in
with cables and hooks, whichspent about four hours on the
(01:07:35):
mountain and you got pretty goodtow holes so you got to be able
to lift your own weight, whichwas a challenge, but we got it
done.
And yeah it's.
But if you're afraid of heights, it's a thousand foot drop, so
you don't want anything to dowith it.
Speaker 1 (01:07:51):
Yeah, it's very impressive that that you're able
to and and please, definitelylet me know the next time you're
in four columns I'd love tograb a cup of coffee with the
end.
Know that you probably saw,when we met the first time, my
two kids running in thebackground.
So, yeah, you'll probably getto meet them the next time that
(01:08:12):
you guys come to town.
Yeah, I look forward to it.
All right, so thank you so muchfor taking some time today.
Speaker 2 (01:08:21):
It's time for a bowling now.
Speaker 1 (01:08:24):
Yeah, yes, sir, always staying busy just as
practicing what you preach.
I love it.
Amen let's talk to you today.
You too.
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