The weight of a service member's armor never fully lifts, even long after the battlefields have fallen silent. Marshall Spring, a former Marine Corps canine handler, joins us to navigate the labyrinth of veterans' mental health, illuminating the darkest corners where depression and suicide lurk. His story is a stark reminder that the fight for our veterans' well-being continues on home soil. Together, we dissect the subtle cues of a mind besieged and the imperative call to action for community support, shedding light on the raw truth that the count of veteran suicides is likely more harrowing than we know.
Our dialogue extends beyond identifying the crisis to actively constructing lifelines. We venture into the transformative potential of camaraderie and shared mission, discussing innovative programs that blend adrenaline-pumping activities with the introduction of therapeutic practices. The power of peer support is championed as an essential force in steering veterans through the maze of support organizations. I share a personal narrative of loss and the pivotal shift towards helping others, exploring how the Warrior Path program and other resources can cultivate post-traumatic growth and a renewed sense of purpose.
As we conclude, the realities of post-military life emerge as a collective journey that veterans must not walk alone. We delve into the complexity of veterans' internal battles, from grappling with guilt to the quest for reintegration into society. Marshall provides guidance on reaching out to the Combat Recovery Foundation and the importance of open dialogue within the recovery community. Our episode underscores the urgency of connection and the collective responsibility we bear to uplift those who've shouldered the weight of our nation's armor.
Contact Marshall and his team on their website below.
https://combatrecoveryfoundation.org/about-us/
Contact Thad - VictoriousVeteranProject@Gmail.com
Thanks for listening!
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
You can identify pretty easily if someone's
feeling really depressed.
But a funny thing about suicidenot funny, ha ha is that
sometimes when people decide tokill themselves, they actually
display a huge uptick in moodbecause they just came up with a
solution to all their problemsthat have been bothering them.
So it's about watching forthose deviations from the
(00:22):
baseline.
And then the next thing wouldbe you know, when someone's in a
suicidal crisis, it's often animpulsive act and so it's
happening now in the moment, andI've worked with a lot of
people who have lost children tosuicide and often I hear I knew
(00:44):
something was wrong on Tuesday,I scheduled something on Friday
, they died on Thursday, right,and so it'd be about.
You know, you can't schedulearound it.
If you identify a person incrisis, it's got to be addressed
right now, in the moment, andthen knowing the right questions
(01:04):
to ask and giving as manypeople involved as possible,
building a community around them.
One of my favorite things toask people is who do you like to
talk to when you're sad?
And that I get that personinvolved as quickly as possible.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
My name is Thad David .
I'm a former Marine recon scoutsniper with two deployments to
Iraq.
As a civilian, I've nowfacilitated hundreds of personal
and professional developmenttrainings across the country,
and it struck me recently thatthe same things that help
civilians will also helpveterans succeed in their new
roles as well.
Join me as we define civiliansuccess principles to inspire
(01:42):
veteran victories.
Welcome to another episode.
I'm here today with MarshallSpring.
How are you doing, marshall?
Speaker 1 (01:49):
I'm well.
Thanks for having me on Thad.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
Oh, marshall, I'm really excited.
I've heard a ton of greatthings about you and just what
you're currently doing, sothanks for taking some time.
Yeah, absolutely, I know you alittle bit.
That I know about you were acanine handler in the Marines,
is that correct?
Speaker 1 (02:09):
Yes, it was.
Speaker 2 (02:11):
Okay, and then I know you just went to a retreat just
recently.
I'd love to dive into all ofthat stuff and if you could,
let's take a step back to whenyou joined up.
When did you join the Marines?
What made you join and what didthat look like for you?
Speaker 1 (02:24):
Yeah, I joined the Marine Corps immediately after
9-11 because of 9-11.
At the time I kind of thoughtit was my generation's Pearl
Harbor.
And yeah, I was in the delayedentry program for a while and I
ended up going to boot camp inMay of 2002.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
Okay, so May of 2002, and then how did you get into
handling canines and what wasthat?
What was that?
Like, I don't meet too manypeople that actually did that.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
So my first choice of MOS for the Marine Corps was I
wanted to be a medic and theytold me we don't have medics and
I said okay and they said wehave MPs and that sounded
interesting.
So I became an MP militarypolice and then they and during
MP school they asked for peopleto apply to be canine handlers.
(03:20):
There was an applicationprocess and SA and an oral board
and they selected four of us togo on to canine school and did
that, went to school and workedas an explosive detection dog
handler for my entire enlistment.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
Wow, how was the schooling for that?
To get trained up to actuallyhandle canines?
Speaker 1 (03:45):
It was a great school .
It was particularly fun for mebecause the Marine Corps is the
only branch that pipelinesdirectly into military police
school.
For the other branches you haveto be an MP for a while and
then usually, once you're an NCO, you can apply to go to canine
(04:06):
school and the school is on anair force base.
So after going to Marine Corpsboot camp and then MCT and then
military police school, going toan air force school with a
bunch of NCOs was a total changein my experience up to that
(04:28):
point and got treated a lotdifferently in that school than
I had been being treated up tothat point.
So I had a blast down inLackland Air Force Base in Texas
.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
So I take it, because you had a blast, you got
treated with a higher level ofrespect, is that?
Speaker 1 (04:45):
Yeah, because everyone else is an NCO.
It was a bunch of sergeants andstaff sergeants in the school,
so there was I don't know how tosay it just a lot less.
There was a lot nicer.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
Okay, yeah, that I wonder.
It makes me wonder because youalways hear great, wonderful
things about the air force,about every.
I always tell people if you'resmart, go into the air force.
You're much smarter than me.
But was it?
Did it have anything to do withthe fact that it was an air
force school as well?
Do you think that it justwasn't just that in your face,
or was it just the NCO portion?
Speaker 1 (05:22):
Yeah, yeah, I would also with it.
I don't know why my bubble justpopped over of my shoulder.
I don't know.
With it being an air forceschool, it was a much more
mellow experience than theMarine Corps schools I'd been
into up to that point, and thefood was better.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
I bet that's well good for you.
And so you did that, and thenyou eventually made your way
over to Iraq.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
Yeah, I was deployed to Iraq 2004, 2005 to the Ramadi
area.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
Okay, ramadi was a busy place to be spending some
time.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
It was a kinetic deployment, had a lot of
interaction with locals, bothpositive and less positive.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
Okay, what was your?
How would you summarize thatwhole deployment?
What was it like, Especiallyhandling canines and that your
bomb detection is that correct?
Speaker 1 (06:26):
Yeah, yeah.
So I would often be out infront of patrols sweeping for
explosives.
You know, force protection wasreally what I spent my time
doing and I worked with a coupleof generals jumps their
(06:46):
security details, but because Iwas an attachable asset, I was a
force multiplier.
I didn't spend all my timeworking with one group.
It was.
We have all different kinds ofunits come by and request a
canine and we go out on theirmissions.
So that was a great opportunityto support a lot of different
(07:07):
units and do a lot of differenttype of mission sets.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
How was it bouncing from team to team?
Because you do so much training, going up to a whole deployment
, that everybody spends so muchtime being with their teams,
whereas it seems like you justbounced, you would be in one
unit, head to the next unit.
What was that like?
Speaker 1 (07:30):
Yeah, there wasn't a lot of continuity, and I know
now veterans talk about catchingup with the people that they
spent time with in combat, andthat's not really much the case
for me, because I would workwith a unit three, four times
(07:54):
the most spread out over aperiod of time, and so it was
just a different type of anexperience, pretty unique as far
as Marines go.
Speaker 2 (08:07):
I had just imagined that, just a very, very
different way of going about it,and I know you did that, and
then you got out.
How long did you spend in andwhat caused you to get out?
Speaker 1 (08:20):
I spent four years in the Marine Corps and, gosh, I
got out.
I guess for a few differentreasons.
Probably one of the biggest wasI was tired of living in the
barracks and I liked to cook andI didn't have a kitchen and I
(08:41):
just wanted to get on with mylife.
Do different things.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
Okay, and now that brings you into you do a lot of
suicide awareness for veterans.
Is that accurate?
What are you currently doing?
Speaker 1 (09:00):
Yeah, so since 2019, I've been focused on suicide
prevention for veterans.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
Okay, and how does that work?
What does that look like?
And how does it go?
I'm very curious to learn aboutwhat you do with that.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
So initially I was hired by a nonprofit to stand up
their veteran suicideprevention efforts and then in
September of this year I startedmy own nonprofit, combat
(09:38):
Recovery Foundation.
Okay, we have a three-prongapproach to address suicidality.
One is peer support and what Ilike to call being a resource
guide.
So to kind of go into moredetail on that, there's a lot of
organizations that seek to helpveterans and that's a bit of a
(10:04):
double-edged sword.
Obviously great that there areso many resources out there, but
a couple of problems with thatare one that not all
organizations are as effectiveas others.
Some a few are prettyunaffected or really don't do
(10:25):
much of anything and just use itas a leverage point to get
donations and grants.
Another issue is for a veteranwho's struggling.
You know well, for anyone who'sstruggling with acute
depression, a minor road bumpcan become an insurmountable
(10:46):
barrier, and one of thosebarriers can simply be the large
number of options that thereare out there and which one to
choose and which one's right forme.
And if that veteran should findthemselves interacting with an
organization that is lesseffective, that could really
sour their experience forseeking resources.
(11:10):
It may be the first and lasttime they do seek resources.
So I think it's important tohave people who are familiar
with all the resources availableand that can direct veterans to
the resource that's right forthem.
So that's the peer supportresource guide angle.
The second thing is what I calladvocacy, and that's just the
(11:36):
work that I'm doing in the space.
For instance, I've been a bigpart of getting the Veterans
Court started in the county thatI live in and I serve on the VA
Suicide Prevention Coalitiondoing podcasts like this.
I write articles and just drawattention to the issues
(12:00):
surrounding suicidality amongstveterans, one of which is that
it's actually grosslyunderreported.
We hear the number 22 a day getthrown around a lot, but
there's a couple of misnomersthere.
One is that when a person killsthemselves or when a person
dies of any cause, there is nodatabase that you can plug that
(12:20):
person's name into to identifywhether or not they're a veteran
.
So that right, there is areason that a person might not
be identified as a veteran in asuicide.
Another thing is the coroner isthe person in the jurisdiction
that determines the cause ofdeath, and that's an elected
position and, depending on thejurisdiction, there's actually
(12:43):
maybe no requirements aroundthat person being a medical
examiner, just kind of like asheriff, doesn't have to be a
police officer to become electeda sheriff, and there can be a
lot of pressure put on thecoroner's office to rule a
suicide and accidental deaththrough insurance companies,
(13:03):
through surviving family members.
There can be a lot of pressureand in speaking to coroners
honestly, if there's not likekind of a clear cut indication
that it was a suicide, like anote, or that there really is no
other possible cause, it willlikely be ruled an accidental
(13:24):
death.
So we've got to take a hardlook at the amount of accidental
deaths in an area andunderstand that a lot of those
are actually suicides, and sobest estimates are that the true
number of veteran suicides isreally more in the neighborhood
of 44 a day, and it could behigher than that.
Speaker 2 (13:46):
But where did they get that from?
Because I thought you weregoing to when you initially
mentioned it.
It kind of sounded like it wasgoing to go in the opposite
direction and that like there'sno way to actually accurately
track who's a veteran.
I mean, how do they know it'sdouble without knowing who's a
veteran, who's not a veteran?
Speaker 1 (14:03):
Yeah, there is no accurate way to track it.
It's through looking at therate of likely suicides being
ruled accidental deaths, and, atthe end of the day, the amount
of deaths attributed to suicidevastly eclipses the amount of
(14:23):
deaths that we've seen as aresult of combat.
And so our war fighters aretaking their lives way, way more
than any enemy of the UnitedStates is killing them.
Speaker 2 (14:42):
And I'm still just I don't know why I'm wrapping my
head around this idea that howdo they even know that any
veterans are?
Obviously we know that veteransare taking their own lives and
we need to do stuff about it,but where are they actually
finding that?
Because if there is noindicator, if the coroner is
there, there's no paperwork thatsays this is a veteran and they
(15:06):
send this body off.
They don't even have a place,if they knew as a veteran, to
enter it in.
Where are we getting thisstatistic from?
Speaker 1 (15:14):
Well, coroner's medical examiners will do
interviews with family membersand come up that they're a
veteran or if there'sparaphernalia on the walls, that
kind of thing.
Those are indicators thatthey'll use to say that they're
a veteran.
But coroner's offices and theway that they do business varies
(15:37):
from jurisdiction tojurisdiction.
So at the end of the day,suicide in general, and
particularly with veterans, isvastly under researched and we
really have no idea how manypeople are killing themselves of
any demographic.
It's interesting.
Speaker 2 (15:56):
I had not thought about or considered the fact
that once because there's awhole business behind somebody's
death and that somebody dies,like you mentioned, insurance,
the family that's there there'sso many people that are going to
step in and then have a voiceor want it to look or be
(16:16):
perceived in a certain way,which I hadn't even considered
in Ziltos now.
So I appreciate you sharing thatand circling back to something
you said earlier, which I findis interesting, because I
actually did a podcast where Ijust mentioned recent this one
was a recent, but I mentionedthe fact that we really don't
have a shortage of veteransupport groups.
(16:37):
I mean, there is a plethora of.
I think at the time that I waslooking it up, there's 40,000
plus groups and organizationsthat are there to help veterans
and it always seemed like we hada shortage of participation and
not enough veterans jumping into actually participate, and I
love the again.
Another thing I hadn'tconsidered till you brought it
(16:59):
up is the idea of the analysis,paralysis, that even if I wanted
to get help, how do I pick one?
Because there's well, there'sso many, there's too many
options, versus whittling itdown and actually being directed
to where to go.
Speaker 1 (17:13):
Yeah, absolutely.
Analysis paralysis is a greatterm.
I'm going to steal that and I'musing it.
I love it.
Yeah, that's exactly what'shappening.
And that brings us to our thirdproblem, and that's where we're
going to.
We're putting on events tobring veterans together and and
(17:36):
create community opportunitiesfor community, which addresses
purpose and belonging.
We can talk more about those ina moment and then at those
events, we'll bringpractitioners of resources to
the event so that veterans havethe opportunity to track things
(17:57):
out that they may be resistantto, to engage in otherwise.
Speaker 2 (18:04):
Okay, and so what are those events look like?
Speaker 1 (18:13):
So we started in September and we're in a
fundraising phase right now.
But when we start schedulingthese things it'll look like
there's a place down in Texasthat does a helicopter hog
hunting and I think you knowthat's definitely something that
you know would bring peopletogether.
And so you know it's hard toget someone to show up for
(18:35):
counseling or for acupuncture,right, or this, this other
really great modality, cranialsacral therapy, which is just
ideal for people who'veexperienced TBIs.
Hard to get veterans to show upfor these things, but they'll
show up for a helicopter hoghunt and then if they're getting
cranial sacral therapyafterward, you know, so be it.
And it's a great way of kind ofgetting their foot in the door,
(18:57):
of trying out these differentmodalities.
Or another example would betranscendental meditation.
You know I can get them to showup to a rappel down a waterfall
, right, and then if we're doingtranscendental meditation after
the fact, so be it, they gettheir foot in the door.
Speaker 2 (19:15):
That's had me at hog hunt, yeah, which I think is
your, is your point.
Speaker 1 (19:22):
That is exactly the point.
Yeah, it's a hook, and thenwe'll talk about this other
issue.
So I've intervened in over 300suicidal scenarios and something
I found that is a commonalityand the majority of those
(19:43):
scenarios is a lack of purposeand a lack of belonging.
And that's for anybody, butwith veterans is particularly
acute because we go from apurpose and belonging rich
environment the military to anenvironment that is less so, and
our modern culture in theUnited States has done a really
(20:06):
good job of sanitizing ourpurpose and our belonging and
washing it from from the day today and so getting people
together to do something really,really fun and exciting and
create something akin to atrauma bond, but kind of on the
opposite end of the spectrum,where they did this really fun
thing together.
And now, you know,relationships are forged through
(20:29):
that and that addresses, youknow, the purpose and belonging
piece through community.
Speaker 2 (20:45):
I feel like a lot of people lack purpose and
belonging and it's a very much asocietal thing not just for
veterans which is as we grow upand if you're not taught how to
go get something or go out thereand actually make something
happen, like set a goal beforethe military.
I joined up, not because I wasa man I'm speaking through the
(21:06):
lens of why I joined.
I was barely graduated highschool.
I definitely wasn't the personthat was setting goals, creating
a pathway for my life.
It just gave me the aha andjust the thinking about just
kind of the teach a veteran howto fish versus giving him the
fish and really teaching him howto create this purpose and
belonging, which is just aninteresting concept.
(21:28):
What was you said?
Over 300, suicide awareness orsuicide?
What did you call it?
Speaker 1 (21:38):
Events, individuals who were who were experiencing
suicidality, that I I intervenedwith.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
What was that experience like?
Speaker 1 (21:55):
Well, something I love about this work is I never
have a boring conversation.
It's a lot of problem solvingand I don't.
I don't do the problem solving,I just ask leading questions
and enable people to solve theirown problems.
I haven't, up to this point,lost anyone.
(22:20):
No one that I've interactedwith has has gone ahead and
killed themselves.
That's certainly a possibility.
As I continue in this careerfield, I imagine that that will
occur, but so far I've had apretty good success rate.
One of the things I love aboutsuicide prevention is it is so
(22:51):
under researched.
There's not a lot of moneyallocated to researching it and
it's a very difficult thing toresearch.
There's a bit of a taboo acultural taboo around talking
about it.
It's a little bit of anundiscovered country in a data
(23:13):
rich environment.
There's not a lot of data.
I get to have the opportunityto figure things out for myself
and make my own observations.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
What sort of and I would imagine, just because it
sounds like now you're steppinginto a sensitive area when
you're interacting with somebodythat is considering suicide.
What education?
Where did you study them?
You said you asked a lot ofleading questions.
It sounds almost like you're acoach or a therapist in a sense.
Have you studied anything likethat that brought you into this
(23:51):
field?
Speaker 1 (23:53):
I don't have a degree in anything.
I am certified through the QPRInstitute as a suicide
prevention instructor.
The QPR stands for question,persuade, refer.
The idea is it's like CPR formental health, where you don't
have to be a doctor to stop thebleeding, start the breathing,
(24:18):
treat for shock and call 911.
Same idea with QPR.
Then I am also a certifiedcoach.
You're right, it is akin tocoaching.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
What would be a scenario or an example that you
could walk through?
That would be that justshowcase what the QPR is.
Speaker 1 (24:46):
Qpr would be about watching for deviations from the
baseline and an individual,sometimes people.
You can identify pretty easilyif someone's feeling really
depressed.
A funny thing about suicide notfunny, ha ha is that sometimes
when people decide to killthemselves they actually display
(25:08):
a huge uptick in mood becausethey just came up with a
solution to all their problemsthat have been bothering them.
It's about watching for thosedeviations from the baseline.
The next thing would be whensomeone's in a suicidal crisis,
it's often an impulsive act.
(25:29):
It's happening now, in themoment.
I've worked with a lot of peoplewho have lost children to
suicide.
Often I hear I knew somethingwas wrong on Tuesday, I
scheduled something on Friday.
They died on Thursday.
It'd be about you can'tschedule around it.
(25:51):
If you identify a person incrisis, it's got to be addressed
right now, in the moment.
Then knowing the rightquestions to ask and giving as
many people involved as possible, building a community around
them.
One of my favorite things toask people is who do you like to
(26:13):
talk to when you're sad?
And then I get that personinvolved as quickly as possible.
Speaker 2 (26:21):
It seems like you're bringing that belonging in on
the back end.
You mentioned the purpose andthe belonging that as you get
that community involved, theyfeel that belonging and their
time of need.
Does the purpose come into it?
Is that a part of yourquestions that goes in because
you mentioned purpose andbelonging.
Does that lead them into theirpurpose as?
Speaker 1 (26:46):
well, we explore purpose often.
Very often the purpose thatpeople land on is service to
others.
That's certainly what made ahuge change in my life and it
does in a lot of people's lives.
Something that you know aboutsomeone who joined the military
(27:08):
is they chose to serve.
That's almost an easy button toget them re-engaged in some
type of service to others.
Speaker 2 (27:24):
You mentioned, that was a big thing for you.
I'm curious to know.
It seemed like there'ssomething there.
What was it that helped you outand what was your piece of
where you realized your shift inservice to others?
Speaker 1 (27:39):
In 2019, I owned a security company.
I had a business partner whowas a former Marine and he shot
himself.
It really took me by surprise.
It took everyone by surprise.
No one saw that coming.
I found myself getting prettyupset with the VA and
(28:01):
questioning who was going totake responsibility for veteran
suicide.
I had a bit of an epiphany thatI was going to not solely, but
that's something I was going toendeavor upon.
That was a huge turning pointfor me in dealing with my own
(28:26):
suicidal ideation and my owndepression.
Speaker 2 (28:33):
And just your awareness of that.
It's me.
This is what I'm going to doserve others.
Speaker 1 (28:40):
That I found a means by which that I can serve the
community again.
Yeah, that was a huge turningpoint for me, and it is for many
veterans.
Speaker 2 (28:53):
But what have you found?
As you, it's easy to.
I mean, just interacting with300 people is a massive Matt.
Everybody talks about helpingveterans and you're actually
boots on the ground legitimatelyhelping veterans, and I'm
curious to know on that justbecause we're talking about that
how has that helped you?
What insight have you gleanedfrom just transitioning your
(29:17):
service to others and reallystepping in and helping out?
Speaker 1 (29:24):
Well, it reestablished purpose and
belonging for me in my life, andI was working on suicide
prevention over the COVIDpandemic.
So more than ever people werefeeling isolated and I had the
opportunity to go and sit downwith them in their living room
(29:47):
and interact with them and touchbase with them and then find
ways that they could findmeaning and service in their
lives and it was impactful forme, it was impactful for them.
It's never been more apparentto me we're a social species.
It's kind of our secret sauce,and we've never been more
(30:14):
isolated than we are right nowin our modern era.
And maybe generations ahead ofus will be better adapted to
this.
But those of us going throughthe transition from being social
(30:36):
just 100, 150 years ago thetechnology was not anywhere near
where it is now and people weremuch more codependent, much
more social.
I mean the advent of the cellphone happened in my lifetime
and the internet compared towhere we are now and I don't
(31:01):
think we're adapting very wellto it.
And we need to createopportunities for interactions
in our lives, and not just thebig ones, not just family and
friends, but the microinteractions that we're losing
(31:21):
in our day to day like gum atthe checkout line of the grocery
store or other just smallinteractions where we have the
perception that we're part of acommunity and we rely on people
and people rely on us, andthat's missing now and people
(31:44):
are adapting well to it.
Speaker 2 (31:49):
You mentioned even just the micro interactions,
because even when we have those,we're there and we're not fully
present, obviously, to it.
What advice would you have forpeople on that level?
I mean just knowing that weneed that social interaction.
What would you tell peoplelistening that maybe are glued
(32:11):
into our phones and we're havingissues?
What advice would you give topeople?
Speaker 1 (32:17):
Yeah, you know this isn't a moratorium on technology
, because these tools areincredible and what they enable
is unprecedented, and I love itsability as a force multiplier
to achieve goals.
But we've got to takeopportunities to have meaningful
(32:40):
conversations or meaningfulconversations with people.
We've got to take opportunitiesto interact with people and so
use it as a tool, but not as areplacement for all forms of
interaction.
Speaker 2 (32:57):
And I love that you pointed out.
Obviously they're great tools.
Like any great tool, like anygreat thing, it could be used
too much, or used in excess, orused in the wrong way could very
much lead to bad things.
Speaker 1 (33:12):
Yeah, like you're absolutely right.
You can do a lot of horriblethings with a hammer and a
screwdriver, you know, but useproperly, you can build a house.
Speaker 2 (33:23):
And I think that's the recognition of it and making
a game plan of how we're goingto use it.
That's fascinating.
So you just recently got backfrom a retreat yourself.
Speaker 1 (33:37):
Yeah, I did.
I went to Warrior Path, whichis put on by Boulder Crest, and
yeah, they're a very effectiveorganization.
Really good work being donethere.
Speaker 2 (33:50):
What did you do on your retreat?
And just out of curiosity, howwas it?
Speaker 1 (33:54):
Yeah, it was awesome.
It was a week long, but intotal it's a 90-day commitment,
and so every day I interact withthe organization and it's about
reframing a person'srelationship with their past,
(34:14):
particularly their traumas.
They have a whole concept thatthey teach on called
post-traumatic growth, and thisis something I talk about with
my stuff as well, but it's aboutfinding the value in your
trauma.
Speaker 2 (34:36):
Finding the value in your trauma.
What would be an example offinding value in your trauma?
Speaker 1 (34:43):
So my friend Al killed himself and that was a
traumatic experience for me andnow I leverage what I learned
from that experience to helpothers, to prevent them killing
themselves.
And so now that I can identifysome small pieces of value in
(35:05):
that tragedy, it makes thattragedy less impactful.
Speaker 2 (35:13):
Was your buddy Al?
Was that the one you owned thesecurity company with?
Speaker 1 (35:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:21):
And so you did a week long retreat, and now you have
a 90-day commitment to stay intouch.
Speaker 1 (35:28):
Yeah.
So every day a new video comesout and it just kind of
reinstills the teachings and thevalues that I learned at the
retreat.
And then they actually have awhole social media app that you
have to be a graduate of thisprogram to have access to.
(35:50):
And so right there there's yourcommunity and your purpose and
your belonging.
And so now if I'm feelinglonely or if I'm feeling
depressed or that the world isoverwhelming, I can show up for
(36:13):
them if I don't want to show upfor myself.
Speaker 2 (36:20):
How many, and I love that.
It gives you that piece rightthere, and I just want to gloss
over it because it's an amazingopportunity when you don't want
to show up for yourself, you canshow up for others, and I'm
curious to ask you how manypeople showed up or how many
veterans were in this group whenyou went through the retreat.
Speaker 1 (36:42):
There were eight in the group.
Speaker 2 (36:46):
Okay, was you seem like a very big advocate?
Obviously, you run your ownorganization, you started up
your own, and what was thecatalyst that got other people
to show up, just out ofcuriosity?
Speaker 1 (37:01):
Everyone had a slightly different story, but
for some it was their spouses ortheir children seeing that they
needed help and encouragingthem to do something.
For others, it was just thedesire for self-improvement.
(37:22):
For me, I feel a sense ofresponsibility.
If I'm going to be putting myhand in the air to help people
out, I need to be bringing thebest possible version of myself
to the table, and I can't bebogged down by my own trauma
(37:43):
while I'm trying to addresssomeone else's.
So it was about trying tosharpen my pencil and just be a
better version of myself.
Speaker 2 (37:53):
And I think it speaks volumes that you do that,
because you're, in a way, eatingyour own cooking and you're
going to ask people to show upto better themselves, and I love
that.
You are yourself, as you put it, sharpen your own pencil, but
you're out there getting better,which is a great thing, and I
would imagine learning a lotalong the way.
And so how do people find ifsomeone and this was back to
(38:20):
that analysis, paralysis ifsomebody was listening to this,
how would somebody, if they were, said you know what?
It's time I want to find anorganization, how would they
actually go out and find aworthwhile organization that
they should go see?
Speaker 1 (38:36):
Well, I mean, the simple answer is to look at
Boulder Crest and their programWarrior's Path.
Can't recommend it enough.
But if people are wanting otheroptions, you know there's so
much out there.
You can learn to play guitar,you can go fishing, you can go
hunting.
You know there's a lot ofoptions and opportunities out
(38:58):
there and that's what we want todo is provide a guide to
finding the right resource foryou.
You know, if you're a personwho's lost their faith as a
result of their you know theirtraumatic experiences, then we
can find a faith basedorganization for them to talk to
(39:20):
.
Or if you know, if that's nottheir particular brand of help,
you know we can find a non, asecular organization for them to
go to and, more importantly,help them to avoid going to the
wrong place for help.
Speaker 2 (39:39):
Do you think because I'm always fascinated with the
fact, you know, you said itseemed like people were in all
levels of kind of where theywere dealing with their trauma
when they showed up to thisretreat and I'm thinking about
somebody that's listening ifthey're constantly, if they're
possibly processing, maybe Ineed to step into it.
You know, it seems like a lotof times in a lot of ways that
(40:02):
we kind of wait until we're in areally bad spot before we step
in and get help.
You know, like I step in tolose weight, not when I gained
five pounds, but when I gained,you know, if somebody gained 50
pounds it's like okay, it's timeto change gears, whereas the
indicator was at five pounds,and do you find that something
that that holds true with?
This is kind of we get to a Idon't want to say a breaking
(40:26):
point, but getting closer tothat breaking point before we
step in for help, is that moreof the common thread?
And why would yeah?
Speaker 1 (40:34):
Well, that's one of the things that I'm trying to
get in front of, and so I'minteracting with some Marines
who were in the withdrawal fromAfghanistan and they're in their
early twenties and for me, youknow, if I had someone like me
one, two, three, four yearsafter I got in the Marine Corps,
you know, putting resources infront of me and encouraging me
(40:56):
to take advantage of them, I'dprobably be in a better place
than I was for the last, youknow, 10, 20 years, See what
yours is.
So I got out well, not quite 20years ago, 15 years ago.
Speaker 2 (41:11):
So yeah, we're there, yeah, we're there.
Speaker 1 (41:16):
And so that's, that's one of the things that I'm
trying to learn from myexperience on and do better for
the, for the future veterans,the veterans that we're making
today.
Speaker 2 (41:33):
And that would be a, I think, a huge thing.
I know when we got out, I goton no five and I would imagine
yours was very similar, but itwas just kind of like yep, see
you later.
And we legitimately justchecked out.
I know we had to go throughthat.
I think it was the TAPS program, which definitely didn't talk
(41:53):
about any type of hey, you justdid two deployments to Iraq.
You know, you just went through.
You know several instances ofcombat, here's best practices
and I think just the fact thatthere's awareness of it and then
making it okay.
You know other people likethere's a, there's a pathway
that other veterans have goneIEU and making it okay, I could
(42:15):
see that as being a huge guidinglight.
You know, if you can in a wayto help people know what to do
and that it is okay to go, do it.
Speaker 1 (42:23):
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, the military's missionis to win wars right, not to
create great, well-roundedcitizens, and that's no
criticism, that's just a simplestatement of fact.
But you know, 7% roughly, ofpeople choose to serve in a
uniform and when these peopletake the uniform off, they
(42:47):
remain some of our greatestcultural assets.
But so many of them arelanguishing through you know
depression medication.
You know our comatose on acouch for you know, and we would
be well-served to rehabilitatethose people and get them back
(43:08):
into the machine and workingtoward a better tomorrow for
everyone, because I stronglybelieve that our uniform service
people are the mostcompassionate among us, even if
it's displayed in adispassionate way.
Speaker 2 (43:33):
What do you mean by that?
With that, they're the mostcompassionate among us.
Speaker 1 (43:37):
Well, I think that it's.
I think it's extremelycourageous to put your life on
the line for your fellow human.
And so you know, militarypeople don't necessarily come
across in the most obviouslyperceivable compassionate way,
(44:02):
but their actions at their coreare the most courageous and the
most compassionate.
Speaker 2 (44:13):
It just made me think of.
And he's a good.
He's actually a Marine as well,but he's a bike club a
motorcycle club is what how herefers to it but it's a group of
some of the nicest people everrough exterior, yet if you jump
(44:35):
in and get to know them, it'slike some of the nicest people
ever.
I would never cross one of them, but you know genuinely good
people and it just for somereason it just made me think of
that, maybe because Jim is anactual Marine as well and we did
some.
We actually went.
I met him working for a privatesecurity company after we both
of us had gotten out.
But yeah, that's interestingand you brought up something
(45:01):
earlier and it made me think ofthis book that I read recently
and he talks about how we allwant the cure for any brought up
cancer.
Just like the cure for cancer,what's the cure for?
And like billions of dollarshas been spent on the cure for
cancer and that's really likethe sexy topic.
It's.
The sexy talking point is howdo we cure this thing?
(45:22):
But he said that I don'tremember his title, but the head
in charge of everything.
He said you know, if we put afraction of the dollars we're
putting into this trying to finda cure for cancer, into
preventing it, we would havesaved just half of the people,
like so many people get saved,just because we got into.
(45:44):
But he said it's just not asexy conversation.
You know, getting out ahead ofit is not.
It's not an intriguing, it'snot a conversation somebody
wants to jump into because it'slike well, eat, healthier
exercise.
You know where's the other side.
It's what is the magic pill tocure it.
And I'm seeing parallels withthis as well and I love that
you're taking that path lesstaken Like, how do we get out in
(46:06):
the front side of it versusbeing there?
Speaker 1 (46:10):
Yeah, well, that's a great point, and it reminds me
that you know, if you add up allthe deaths attributed to murder
, war and terrorism in a givenyear will not equal the amount
of people who kill themselves ina given year.
It doesn't even come close.
And we've already talked abouthow that number of suicides is
(46:30):
vastly underreported in thefirst place.
So, but you know, the attentionis on those more salacious
topics.
Speaker 2 (46:44):
And another thing that it made me think of earlier
as well was just the militarybeing a business like they're in
the business of being creatingwarfighters and winning wars,
and it would be.
You know, I met a lady recentlywho's a sales trainer, sales
coach, and so she goes to allthese businesses like she works
for I don't remember theorganization.
(47:05):
She goes into differentcompanies all over the country
and just trains them on how tosell, and she actually gets
contracted out by the branchesof the military to train the
recruiters on how to sell.
And it made me sit back andthink I was like man.
I never really thought about it.
But the military, the MarineCorps in our instance, like
their job is to sell you onbeing in the Marine Corps.
And it would be very similar tolike if you went to a car
(47:28):
dealership and you had asalesperson and I'm like no, no,
no, you don't want one of these, you know it just, it would
never happen.
Like the military has to dotheir job in order to keep and
create this machine of winningwars and it just wouldn't be
good to step in.
And well, it just it wouldn'tbe a good look, I don't think,
but I love that you're steppingin to help out.
Speaker 1 (47:51):
Well, and you know you made the point that you and
I are getting old, and so youknow it's incumbent upon us, as
we move into our middle age andlike true, true adulthood, you
know, to dictate what our andthe generations behind us, you
(48:15):
know what the post-militaryreality is going to be for them.
You know generations have comebefore us and they've done what
they've done, but now we'removing into the driver's seat.
Speaker 2 (48:30):
What would you say?
One thing that, as I do moreinterviews and I and I think
this is going to be a big onefor the younger generation,
which is what made me think ofit as you saying, that is, you
had mentioned earlier that weput our lives on the line and I
find, as I talk to more and moreof a younger generation of
veteran they have.
(48:51):
They really struggle with thefact that they didn't.
They feel like they didn't geta chance to go put their lives
on the line, ie go on adeployment overseas, and it
seems to be a big struggle rightnow that a lot of people
struggle simply because theysigned up and they didn't get to
go into any sort of combat.
Have you, do you see a lot ofthat?
Speaker 1 (49:12):
Yeah, absolutely.
I see, I see depression aroundthat, but you know that that was
, I think that was present forthe Vietnam era and I'm sure it
was present for the for theKorean World War era as well.
Is is the people who didn'thave the opportunity to serve,
(49:37):
and particularly in a combatrole.
I think some of them carry someregret and guilt around that
and that is its own, that is hisown trauma and that that that
is its own, that that fuelsdepression as well.
Speaker 2 (49:54):
It was something that I, again, before interviewing
and interacting with people on adeeper level, I never would
have thought of.
You know, because I never throwshade at anybody that didn't
deploy Like man, thanks forserving.
Nobody asked me if I wanted togo, I signed up, and it was just
.
They just said you're going andit wasn't really a choice, and
I think that that's how I'vealways viewed it.
(50:16):
But I can definitely understandwhy there would be some just
some hard feelings If you wantedto deploy, like you said, you
signed up because of 9-11.
If you didn't get to go, therewould easily be some hard
feelings with it.
It also made me think of and youbrought up Vietnam and I was
(50:38):
talking to I know we are comingthrough, it was Brad, that's how
I got your information and he'sdone so many interviews with
Vietnam veterans, world War IIveterans and he was talking
about the Honor Flight and thatthe first time they integrated
the Vietnam veterans on thoseHonor flights that he said it
was a very difficult flightbecause the World War II
(51:00):
veterans kind of just lookeddifferently at the Vietnam
veterans just because it was ayou know, they said it was a
different war, and it makes mewant to explore more.
It just gave me the thoughthere and I wanted to ask you if
you've seen a lot of it.
But it seems like there's a lotof veteran versus veteran
conflict as well, whereas Iheard recently some people say
whether combat veterans whichkind of anybody that wasn't
(51:23):
would feel less than because ofit Is that?
Do you see that as well aswhere there's almost internal
conflict between veterans?
Speaker 1 (51:31):
Yeah, I see it happen .
I know that also there was withthe VFWs and those type of
clubs.
There was a lot of conflictbetween the older generations of
veterans in the Vietnam era.
It's.
You know I don't necessarilyunderstand it and you know it's
(51:57):
unfortunate.
People like to be tribalistic.
You know they like to have agroup and then a group that's
other than and people will findall kinds of reasons to draw
lines in the sand around.
You know their differences andthat's sad and I wish people
(52:20):
could could focus on what theyhave in common more than they
have.
You know what's what'sdifferent?
Speaker 2 (52:29):
And it's man, I completely agree, but finding
the commonality inside of it, itjust it struck me because
there's one thing that I saw andthen, once he mentioned it, it
almost gave me peace of mind,knowing that it happened in
every generation's wars prior toours, that there, and it
(52:50):
doesn't make it okay, it doesn'tmean that we don't have
something to do.
But for a long time I was likeman, I can't believe that we're
doing this to each other,because it seems like veterans
having conflict is like wait,it's.
We're not in this great spacewhere we can afford to, you know
, rock the boat.
We had a lot of veteransstruggling, whether they went to
combat or not.
Speaker 1 (53:12):
So I don't know if you ever heard this joke, but it
goes.
What did the first ever Marinesay to the second ever Marine?
And the punchline is you shouldhave been in the old core,
right.
So you know, I guess, goingback to you know, we're, we're
(53:37):
the role models.
Now we're in the driver's seat,now we have the opportunity to
dictate what veteran culturelooks like going forward.
And so I guess you know,talking about this is important
and you know, and also walkingthe walk about it and
(53:57):
demonstrating it and calling itout when we see it being done
wrong is are all things that wecan do to try and improve that.
Speaker 2 (54:09):
I love you mentioned that, the calling it out because
I think all too often when wedon't speak up, that the silence
lets the other person know thatwe probably agree.
I mean when somebody, whennobody says anything, everybody
that was quiet they see that as,oh, I'm doing the right thing
here.
Other people agree with me, butthe moment we step up and say,
hey, let's, let's have a quickconversation, this isn't okay.
Speaker 1 (54:35):
So it's not so well.
There's no lack of courage inthis community, and so let's,
let's leverage that to to have,you know, uncomfortable
conversations around beingbetter people.
I mean, why not?
Speaker 2 (54:49):
Yeah, oh, marshall, thank you so much for jumping on
.
I really appreciate it.
I love all your insight.
If somebody would love to getin touch with you, what are the
best ways for them to reach out,find you and to really dig into
more of what you're doing?
Speaker 1 (55:05):
Yeah, you can find us on our website here at combat
recovery foundationorg and I'vegot a.
I've got an email on there ofmy my phone numbers on there and
you know.
If you want to talk about anyof these topics or anything else
, I encourage you to look me upon there and let's start a
(55:29):
dialogue.
Speaker 2 (55:30):
I would definitely encourage you to reach out.
I know I've reached outrecently and Marshall has been
just very giving of his time andconversation, so definitely
reach out to Marshall and checkout his website and Marshall,
thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (55:44):
Yeah, thanks for having me and thanks for thanks
for utilizing this platform toget you know good messages out
into the world.
Speaker 2 (55:54):
I find that I didn't know that I wanted to do that
and then, when I started this,it once I saw the benefit of
just having these conversationsand it's just there's so many
people doing great things likeyourself and just helping to
raise awareness, for it is amassive, massive thing.
So thank you Great.
Speaker 1 (56:12):
Thank you.
You can identify pretty easily if someone's
feeling really depressed.
But a funny thing about suicidenot funny, ha ha is that
sometimes when people decide tokill themselves, they actually
display a huge uptick in moodbecause they just came up with a
solution to all their problemsthat have been bothering them.
So it's about watching forthose deviations from the
(00:22):
baseline.
And then the next thing wouldbe you know, when someone's in a
suicidal crisis, it's often animpulsive act and so it's
happening now in the moment, andI've worked with a lot of
people who have lost children tosuicide and often I hear I knew
(00:44):
something was wrong on Tuesday,I scheduled something on Friday
, they died on Thursday, right,and so it'd be about.
You know, you can't schedulearound it.
If you identify a person incrisis, it's got to be addressed
right now, in the moment, andthen knowing the right questions
(01:04):
to ask and giving as manypeople involved as possible,
building a community around them.
One of my favorite things toask people is who do you like to
talk to when you're sad?
And that I get that personinvolved as quickly as possible.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
My name is Thad David .
I'm a former Marine recon scoutsniper with two deployments to
Iraq.
As a civilian, I've nowfacilitated hundreds of personal
and professional developmenttrainings across the country,
and it struck me recently thatthe same things that help
civilians will also helpveterans succeed in their new
roles as well.
Join me as we define civiliansuccess principles to inspire
(01:42):
veteran victories.
Welcome to another episode.
I'm here today with MarshallSpring.
How are you doing, marshall?
Speaker 1 (01:49):
I'm well.
Thanks for having me on Thad.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
Oh, marshall, I'm really excited.
I've heard a ton of greatthings about you and just what
you're currently doing, sothanks for taking some time.
Yeah, absolutely, I know you alittle bit.
That I know about you were acanine handler in the Marines,
is that correct?
Speaker 1 (02:09):
Yes, it was.
Speaker 2 (02:11):
Okay, and then I know you just went to a retreat just
recently.
I'd love to dive into all ofthat stuff and if you could,
let's take a step back to whenyou joined up.
When did you join the Marines?
What made you join and what didthat look like for you?
Speaker 1 (02:24):
Yeah, I joined the Marine Corps immediately after
9-11 because of 9-11.
At the time I kind of thoughtit was my generation's Pearl
Harbor.
And yeah, I was in the delayedentry program for a while and I
ended up going to boot camp inMay of 2002.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
Okay, so May of 2002, and then how did you get into
handling canines and what wasthat?
What was that?
Like, I don't meet too manypeople that actually did that.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
So my first choice of MOS for the Marine Corps was I
wanted to be a medic and theytold me we don't have medics and
I said okay and they said wehave MPs and that sounded
interesting.
So I became an MP militarypolice and then they and during
MP school they asked for peopleto apply to be canine handlers.
(03:20):
There was an applicationprocess and SA and an oral board
and they selected four of us togo on to canine school and did
that, went to school and workedas an explosive detection dog
handler for my entire enlistment.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
Wow, how was the schooling for that?
To get trained up to actuallyhandle canines?
Speaker 1 (03:45):
It was a great school .
It was particularly fun for mebecause the Marine Corps is the
only branch that pipelinesdirectly into military police
school.
For the other branches you haveto be an MP for a while and
then usually, once you're an NCO, you can apply to go to canine
(04:06):
school and the school is on anair force base.
So after going to Marine Corpsboot camp and then MCT and then
military police school, going toan air force school with a
bunch of NCOs was a total changein my experience up to that
(04:28):
point and got treated a lotdifferently in that school than
I had been being treated up tothat point.
So I had a blast down inLackland Air Force Base in Texas
.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
So I take it, because you had a blast, you got
treated with a higher level ofrespect, is that?
Speaker 1 (04:45):
Yeah, because everyone else is an NCO.
It was a bunch of sergeants andstaff sergeants in the school,
so there was I don't know how tosay it just a lot less.
There was a lot nicer.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
Okay, yeah, that I wonder.
It makes me wonder because youalways hear great, wonderful
things about the air force,about every.
I always tell people if you'resmart, go into the air force.
You're much smarter than me.
But was it?
Did it have anything to do withthe fact that it was an air
force school as well?
Do you think that it justwasn't just that in your face,
or was it just the NCO portion?
Speaker 1 (05:22):
Yeah, yeah, I would also with it.
I don't know why my bubble justpopped over of my shoulder.
I don't know.
With it being an air forceschool, it was a much more
mellow experience than theMarine Corps schools I'd been
into up to that point, and thefood was better.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
I bet that's well good for you.
And so you did that, and thenyou eventually made your way
over to Iraq.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
Yeah, I was deployed to Iraq 2004, 2005 to the Ramadi
area.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
Okay, ramadi was a busy place to be spending some
time.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
It was a kinetic deployment, had a lot of
interaction with locals, bothpositive and less positive.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
Okay, what was your?
How would you summarize thatwhole deployment?
What was it like, Especiallyhandling canines and that your
bomb detection is that correct?
Speaker 1 (06:26):
Yeah, yeah.
So I would often be out infront of patrols sweeping for
explosives.
You know, force protection wasreally what I spent my time
doing and I worked with a coupleof generals jumps their
(06:46):
security details, but because Iwas an attachable asset, I was a
force multiplier.
I didn't spend all my timeworking with one group.
It was.
We have all different kinds ofunits come by and request a
canine and we go out on theirmissions.
So that was a great opportunityto support a lot of different
(07:07):
units and do a lot of differenttype of mission sets.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
How was it bouncing from team to team?
Because you do so much training, going up to a whole deployment
, that everybody spends so muchtime being with their teams,
whereas it seems like you justbounced, you would be in one
unit, head to the next unit.
What was that like?
Speaker 1 (07:30):
Yeah, there wasn't a lot of continuity, and I know
now veterans talk about catchingup with the people that they
spent time with in combat, andthat's not really much the case
for me, because I would workwith a unit three, four times
(07:54):
the most spread out over aperiod of time, and so it was
just a different type of anexperience, pretty unique as far
as Marines go.
Speaker 2 (08:07):
I had just imagined that, just a very, very
different way of going about it,and I know you did that, and
then you got out.
How long did you spend in andwhat caused you to get out?
Speaker 1 (08:20):
I spent four years in the Marine Corps and, gosh, I
got out.
I guess for a few differentreasons.
Probably one of the biggest wasI was tired of living in the
barracks and I liked to cook andI didn't have a kitchen and I
(08:41):
just wanted to get on with mylife.
Do different things.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
Okay, and now that brings you into you do a lot of
suicide awareness for veterans.
Is that accurate?
What are you currently doing?
Speaker 1 (09:00):
Yeah, so since 2019, I've been focused on suicide
prevention for veterans.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
Okay, and how does that work?
What does that look like?
And how does it go?
I'm very curious to learn aboutwhat you do with that.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
So initially I was hired by a nonprofit to stand up
their veteran suicideprevention efforts and then in
September of this year I startedmy own nonprofit, combat
(09:38):
Recovery Foundation.
Okay, we have a three-prongapproach to address suicidality.
One is peer support and what Ilike to call being a resource
guide.
So to kind of go into moredetail on that, there's a lot of
organizations that seek to helpveterans and that's a bit of a
(10:04):
double-edged sword.
Obviously great that there areso many resources out there, but
a couple of problems with thatare one that not all
organizations are as effectiveas others.
Some a few are prettyunaffected or really don't do
(10:25):
much of anything and just use itas a leverage point to get
donations and grants.
Another issue is for a veteranwho's struggling.
You know well, for anyone who'sstruggling with acute
depression, a minor road bumpcan become an insurmountable
(10:46):
barrier, and one of thosebarriers can simply be the large
number of options that thereare out there and which one to
choose and which one's right forme.
And if that veteran should findthemselves interacting with an
organization that is lesseffective, that could really
sour their experience forseeking resources.
(11:10):
It may be the first and lasttime they do seek resources.
So I think it's important tohave people who are familiar
with all the resources availableand that can direct veterans to
the resource that's right forthem.
So that's the peer supportresource guide angle.
The second thing is what I calladvocacy, and that's just the
(11:36):
work that I'm doing in the space.
For instance, I've been a bigpart of getting the Veterans
Court started in the county thatI live in and I serve on the VA
Suicide Prevention Coalitiondoing podcasts like this.
I write articles and just drawattention to the issues
(12:00):
surrounding suicidality amongstveterans, one of which is that
it's actually grosslyunderreported.
We hear the number 22 a day getthrown around a lot, but
there's a couple of misnomersthere.
One is that when a person killsthemselves or when a person
dies of any cause, there is nodatabase that you can plug that
(12:20):
person's name into to identifywhether or not they're a veteran
.
So that right, there is areason that a person might not
be identified as a veteran in asuicide.
Another thing is the coroner isthe person in the jurisdiction
that determines the cause ofdeath, and that's an elected
position and, depending on thejurisdiction, there's actually
(12:43):
maybe no requirements aroundthat person being a medical
examiner, just kind of like asheriff, doesn't have to be a
police officer to become electeda sheriff, and there can be a
lot of pressure put on thecoroner's office to rule a
suicide and accidental deaththrough insurance companies,
(13:03):
through surviving family members.
There can be a lot of pressureand in speaking to coroners
honestly, if there's not likekind of a clear cut indication
that it was a suicide, like anote, or that there really is no
other possible cause, it willlikely be ruled an accidental
(13:24):
death.
So we've got to take a hardlook at the amount of accidental
deaths in an area andunderstand that a lot of those
are actually suicides, and sobest estimates are that the true
number of veteran suicides isreally more in the neighborhood
of 44 a day, and it could behigher than that.
Speaker 2 (13:46):
But where did they get that from?
Because I thought you weregoing to when you initially
mentioned it.
It kind of sounded like it wasgoing to go in the opposite
direction and that like there'sno way to actually accurately
track who's a veteran.
I mean, how do they know it'sdouble without knowing who's a
veteran, who's not a veteran?
Speaker 1 (14:03):
Yeah, there is no accurate way to track it.
It's through looking at therate of likely suicides being
ruled accidental deaths, and, atthe end of the day, the amount
of deaths attributed to suicidevastly eclipses the amount of
(14:23):
deaths that we've seen as aresult of combat.
And so our war fighters aretaking their lives way, way more
than any enemy of the UnitedStates is killing them.
Speaker 2 (14:42):
And I'm still just I don't know why I'm wrapping my
head around this idea that howdo they even know that any
veterans are?
Obviously we know that veteransare taking their own lives and
we need to do stuff about it,but where are they actually
finding that?
Because if there is noindicator, if the coroner is
there, there's no paperwork thatsays this is a veteran and they
(15:06):
send this body off.
They don't even have a place,if they knew as a veteran, to
enter it in.
Where are we getting thisstatistic from?
Speaker 1 (15:14):
Well, coroner's medical examiners will do
interviews with family membersand come up that they're a
veteran or if there'sparaphernalia on the walls, that
kind of thing.
Those are indicators thatthey'll use to say that they're
a veteran.
But coroner's offices and theway that they do business varies
(15:37):
from jurisdiction tojurisdiction.
So at the end of the day,suicide in general, and
particularly with veterans, isvastly under researched and we
really have no idea how manypeople are killing themselves of
any demographic.
It's interesting.
Speaker 2 (15:56):
I had not thought about or considered the fact
that once because there's awhole business behind somebody's
death and that somebody dies,like you mentioned, insurance,
the family that's there there'sso many people that are going to
step in and then have a voiceor want it to look or be
(16:16):
perceived in a certain way,which I hadn't even considered
in Ziltos now.
So I appreciate you sharing thatand circling back to something
you said earlier, which I findis interesting, because I
actually did a podcast where Ijust mentioned recent this one
was a recent, but I mentionedthe fact that we really don't
have a shortage of veteransupport groups.
(16:37):
I mean, there is a plethora of.
I think at the time that I waslooking it up, there's 40,000
plus groups and organizationsthat are there to help veterans
and it always seemed like we hada shortage of participation and
not enough veterans jumping into actually participate, and I
love the again.
Another thing I hadn'tconsidered till you brought it
(16:59):
up is the idea of the analysis,paralysis, that even if I wanted
to get help, how do I pick one?
Because there's well, there'sso many, there's too many
options, versus whittling itdown and actually being directed
to where to go.
Speaker 1 (17:13):
Yeah, absolutely.
Analysis paralysis is a greatterm.
I'm going to steal that and I'musing it.
I love it.
Yeah, that's exactly what'shappening.
And that brings us to our thirdproblem, and that's where we're
going to.
We're putting on events tobring veterans together and and
(17:36):
create community opportunitiesfor community, which addresses
purpose and belonging.
We can talk more about those ina moment and then at those
events, we'll bringpractitioners of resources to
the event so that veterans havethe opportunity to track things
(17:57):
out that they may be resistantto, to engage in otherwise.
Speaker 2 (18:04):
Okay, and so what are those events look like?
Speaker 1 (18:13):
So we started in September and we're in a
fundraising phase right now.
But when we start schedulingthese things it'll look like
there's a place down in Texasthat does a helicopter hog
hunting and I think you knowthat's definitely something that
you know would bring peopletogether.
And so you know it's hard toget someone to show up for
(18:35):
counseling or for acupuncture,right, or this, this other
really great modality, cranialsacral therapy, which is just
ideal for people who'veexperienced TBIs.
Hard to get veterans to show upfor these things, but they'll
show up for a helicopter hoghunt and then if they're getting
cranial sacral therapyafterward, you know, so be it.
And it's a great way of kind ofgetting their foot in the door,
(18:57):
of trying out these differentmodalities.
Or another example would betranscendental meditation.
You know I can get them to showup to a rappel down a waterfall
, right, and then if we're doingtranscendental meditation after
the fact, so be it, they gettheir foot in the door.
Speaker 2 (19:15):
That's had me at hog hunt, yeah, which I think is
your, is your point.
Speaker 1 (19:22):
That is exactly the point.
Yeah, it's a hook, and thenwe'll talk about this other
issue.
So I've intervened in over 300suicidal scenarios and something
I found that is a commonalityand the majority of those
(19:43):
scenarios is a lack of purposeand a lack of belonging.
And that's for anybody, butwith veterans is particularly
acute because we go from apurpose and belonging rich
environment the military to anenvironment that is less so, and
our modern culture in theUnited States has done a really
(20:06):
good job of sanitizing ourpurpose and our belonging and
washing it from from the day today and so getting people
together to do something really,really fun and exciting and
create something akin to atrauma bond, but kind of on the
opposite end of the spectrum,where they did this really fun
thing together.
And now, you know,relationships are forged through
(20:29):
that and that addresses, youknow, the purpose and belonging
piece through community.
Speaker 2 (20:45):
I feel like a lot of people lack purpose and
belonging and it's a very much asocietal thing not just for
veterans which is as we grow upand if you're not taught how to
go get something or go out thereand actually make something
happen, like set a goal beforethe military.
I joined up, not because I wasa man I'm speaking through the
(21:06):
lens of why I joined.
I was barely graduated highschool.
I definitely wasn't the personthat was setting goals, creating
a pathway for my life.
It just gave me the aha andjust the thinking about just
kind of the teach a veteran howto fish versus giving him the
fish and really teaching him howto create this purpose and
belonging, which is just aninteresting concept.
(21:28):
What was you said?
Over 300, suicide awareness orsuicide?
What did you call it?
Speaker 1 (21:38):
Events, individuals who were who were experiencing
suicidality, that I I intervenedwith.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
What was that experience like?
Speaker 1 (21:55):
Well, something I love about this work is I never
have a boring conversation.
It's a lot of problem solvingand I don't.
I don't do the problem solving,I just ask leading questions
and enable people to solve theirown problems.
I haven't, up to this point,lost anyone.
(22:20):
No one that I've interactedwith has has gone ahead and
killed themselves.
That's certainly a possibility.
As I continue in this careerfield, I imagine that that will
occur, but so far I've had apretty good success rate.
One of the things I love aboutsuicide prevention is it is so
(22:51):
under researched.
There's not a lot of moneyallocated to researching it and
it's a very difficult thing toresearch.
There's a bit of a taboo acultural taboo around talking
about it.
It's a little bit of anundiscovered country in a data
(23:13):
rich environment.
There's not a lot of data.
I get to have the opportunityto figure things out for myself
and make my own observations.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
What sort of and I would imagine, just because it
sounds like now you're steppinginto a sensitive area when
you're interacting with somebodythat is considering suicide.
What education?
Where did you study them?
You said you asked a lot ofleading questions.
It sounds almost like you're acoach or a therapist in a sense.
Have you studied anything likethat that brought you into this
(23:51):
field?
Speaker 1 (23:53):
I don't have a degree in anything.
I am certified through the QPRInstitute as a suicide
prevention instructor.
The QPR stands for question,persuade, refer.
The idea is it's like CPR formental health, where you don't
have to be a doctor to stop thebleeding, start the breathing,
(24:18):
treat for shock and call 911.
Same idea with QPR.
Then I am also a certifiedcoach.
You're right, it is akin tocoaching.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
What would be a scenario or an example that you
could walk through?
That would be that justshowcase what the QPR is.
Speaker 1 (24:46):
Qpr would be about watching for deviations from the
baseline and an individual,sometimes people.
You can identify pretty easilyif someone's feeling really
depressed.
A funny thing about suicide notfunny, ha ha is that sometimes
when people decide to killthemselves they actually display
(25:08):
a huge uptick in mood becausethey just came up with a
solution to all their problemsthat have been bothering them.
It's about watching for thosedeviations from the baseline.
The next thing would be whensomeone's in a suicidal crisis,
it's often an impulsive act.
(25:29):
It's happening now, in themoment.
I've worked with a lot of peoplewho have lost children to
suicide.
Often I hear I knew somethingwas wrong on Tuesday, I
scheduled something on Friday.
They died on Thursday.
It'd be about you can'tschedule around it.
(25:51):
If you identify a person incrisis, it's got to be addressed
right now, in the moment.
Then knowing the rightquestions to ask and giving as
many people involved as possible, building a community around
them.
One of my favorite things toask people is who do you like to
(26:13):
talk to when you're sad?
And then I get that personinvolved as quickly as possible.
Speaker 2 (26:21):
It seems like you're bringing that belonging in on
the back end.
You mentioned the purpose andthe belonging that as you get
that community involved, theyfeel that belonging and their
time of need.
Does the purpose come into it?
Is that a part of yourquestions that goes in because
you mentioned purpose andbelonging.
Does that lead them into theirpurpose as?
Speaker 1 (26:46):
well, we explore purpose often.
Very often the purpose thatpeople land on is service to
others.
That's certainly what made ahuge change in my life and it
does in a lot of people's lives.
Something that you know aboutsomeone who joined the military
(27:08):
is they chose to serve.
That's almost an easy button toget them re-engaged in some
type of service to others.
Speaker 2 (27:24):
You mentioned, that was a big thing for you.
I'm curious to know.
It seemed like there'ssomething there.
What was it that helped you outand what was your piece of
where you realized your shift inservice to others?
Speaker 1 (27:39):
In 2019, I owned a security company.
I had a business partner whowas a former Marine and he shot
himself.
It really took me by surprise.
It took everyone by surprise.
No one saw that coming.
I found myself getting prettyupset with the VA and
(28:01):
questioning who was going totake responsibility for veteran
suicide.
I had a bit of an epiphany thatI was going to not solely, but
that's something I was going toendeavor upon.
That was a huge turning pointfor me in dealing with my own
(28:26):
suicidal ideation and my owndepression.
Speaker 2 (28:33):
And just your awareness of that.
It's me.
This is what I'm going to doserve others.
Speaker 1 (28:40):
That I found a means by which that I can serve the
community again.
Yeah, that was a huge turningpoint for me, and it is for many
veterans.
Speaker 2 (28:53):
But what have you found?
As you, it's easy to.
I mean, just interacting with300 people is a massive Matt.
Everybody talks about helpingveterans and you're actually
boots on the ground legitimatelyhelping veterans, and I'm
curious to know on that justbecause we're talking about that
how has that helped you?
What insight have you gleanedfrom just transitioning your
(29:17):
service to others and reallystepping in and helping out?
Speaker 1 (29:24):
Well, it reestablished purpose and
belonging for me in my life, andI was working on suicide
prevention over the COVIDpandemic.
So more than ever people werefeeling isolated and I had the
opportunity to go and sit downwith them in their living room
(29:47):
and interact with them and touchbase with them and then find
ways that they could findmeaning and service in their
lives and it was impactful forme, it was impactful for them.
It's never been more apparentto me we're a social species.
It's kind of our secret sauce,and we've never been more
(30:14):
isolated than we are right nowin our modern era.
And maybe generations ahead ofus will be better adapted to
this.
But those of us going throughthe transition from being social
(30:36):
just 100, 150 years ago thetechnology was not anywhere near
where it is now and people weremuch more codependent, much
more social.
I mean the advent of the cellphone happened in my lifetime
and the internet compared towhere we are now and I don't
(31:01):
think we're adapting very wellto it.
And we need to createopportunities for interactions
in our lives, and not just thebig ones, not just family and
friends, but the microinteractions that we're losing
(31:21):
in our day to day like gum atthe checkout line of the grocery
store or other just smallinteractions where we have the
perception that we're part of acommunity and we rely on people
and people rely on us, andthat's missing now and people
(31:44):
are adapting well to it.
Speaker 2 (31:49):
You mentioned even just the micro interactions,
because even when we have those,we're there and we're not fully
present, obviously, to it.
What advice would you have forpeople on that level?
I mean just knowing that weneed that social interaction.
What would you tell peoplelistening that maybe are glued
(32:11):
into our phones and we're havingissues?
What advice would you give topeople?
Speaker 1 (32:17):
Yeah, you know this isn't a moratorium on technology
, because these tools areincredible and what they enable
is unprecedented, and I love itsability as a force multiplier
to achieve goals.
But we've got to takeopportunities to have meaningful
(32:40):
conversations or meaningfulconversations with people.
We've got to take opportunitiesto interact with people and so
use it as a tool, but not as areplacement for all forms of
interaction.
Speaker 2 (32:57):
And I love that you pointed out.
Obviously they're great tools.
Like any great tool, like anygreat thing, it could be used
too much, or used in excess, orused in the wrong way could very
much lead to bad things.
Speaker 1 (33:12):
Yeah, like you're absolutely right.
You can do a lot of horriblethings with a hammer and a
screwdriver, you know, but useproperly, you can build a house.
Speaker 2 (33:23):
And I think that's the recognition of it and making
a game plan of how we're goingto use it.
That's fascinating.
So you just recently got backfrom a retreat yourself.
Speaker 1 (33:37):
Yeah, I did.
I went to Warrior Path, whichis put on by Boulder Crest, and
yeah, they're a very effectiveorganization.
Really good work being donethere.
Speaker 2 (33:50):
What did you do on your retreat?
And just out of curiosity, howwas it?
Speaker 1 (33:54):
Yeah, it was awesome.
It was a week long, but intotal it's a 90-day commitment,
and so every day I interact withthe organization and it's about
reframing a person'srelationship with their past,
(34:14):
particularly their traumas.
They have a whole concept thatthey teach on called
post-traumatic growth, and thisis something I talk about with
my stuff as well, but it's aboutfinding the value in your
trauma.
Speaker 2 (34:36):
Finding the value in your trauma.
What would be an example offinding value in your trauma?
Speaker 1 (34:43):
So my friend Al killed himself and that was a
traumatic experience for me andnow I leverage what I learned
from that experience to helpothers, to prevent them killing
themselves.
And so now that I can identifysome small pieces of value in
(35:05):
that tragedy, it makes thattragedy less impactful.
Speaker 2 (35:13):
Was your buddy Al?
Was that the one you owned thesecurity company with?
Speaker 1 (35:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:21):
And so you did a week long retreat, and now you have
a 90-day commitment to stay intouch.
Speaker 1 (35:28):
Yeah.
So every day a new video comesout and it just kind of
reinstills the teachings and thevalues that I learned at the
retreat.
And then they actually have awhole social media app that you
have to be a graduate of thisprogram to have access to.
(35:50):
And so right there there's yourcommunity and your purpose and
your belonging.
And so now if I'm feelinglonely or if I'm feeling
depressed or that the world isoverwhelming, I can show up for
(36:13):
them if I don't want to show upfor myself.
Speaker 2 (36:20):
How many, and I love that.
It gives you that piece rightthere, and I just want to gloss
over it because it's an amazingopportunity when you don't want
to show up for yourself, you canshow up for others, and I'm
curious to ask you how manypeople showed up or how many
veterans were in this group whenyou went through the retreat.
Speaker 1 (36:42):
There were eight in the group.
Speaker 2 (36:46):
Okay, was you seem like a very big advocate?
Obviously, you run your ownorganization, you started up
your own, and what was thecatalyst that got other people
to show up, just out ofcuriosity?
Speaker 1 (37:01):
Everyone had a slightly different story, but
for some it was their spouses ortheir children seeing that they
needed help and encouragingthem to do something.
For others, it was just thedesire for self-improvement.
(37:22):
For me, I feel a sense ofresponsibility.
If I'm going to be putting myhand in the air to help people
out, I need to be bringing thebest possible version of myself
to the table, and I can't bebogged down by my own trauma
(37:43):
while I'm trying to addresssomeone else's.
So it was about trying tosharpen my pencil and just be a
better version of myself.
Speaker 2 (37:53):
And I think it speaks volumes that you do that,
because you're, in a way, eatingyour own cooking and you're
going to ask people to show upto better themselves, and I love
that.
You are yourself, as you put it, sharpen your own pencil, but
you're out there getting better,which is a great thing, and I
would imagine learning a lotalong the way.
And so how do people find ifsomeone and this was back to
(38:20):
that analysis, paralysis ifsomebody was listening to this,
how would somebody, if they were, said you know what?
It's time I want to find anorganization, how would they
actually go out and find aworthwhile organization that
they should go see?
Speaker 1 (38:36):
Well, I mean, the simple answer is to look at
Boulder Crest and their programWarrior's Path.
Can't recommend it enough.
But if people are wanting otheroptions, you know there's so
much out there.
You can learn to play guitar,you can go fishing, you can go
hunting.
You know there's a lot ofoptions and opportunities out
(38:58):
there and that's what we want todo is provide a guide to
finding the right resource foryou.
You know, if you're a personwho's lost their faith as a
result of their you know theirtraumatic experiences, then we
can find a faith basedorganization for them to talk to
(39:20):
.
Or if you know, if that's nottheir particular brand of help,
you know we can find a non, asecular organization for them to
go to and, more importantly,help them to avoid going to the
wrong place for help.
Speaker 2 (39:39):
Do you think because I'm always fascinated with the
fact, you know, you said itseemed like people were in all
levels of kind of where theywere dealing with their trauma
when they showed up to thisretreat and I'm thinking about
somebody that's listening ifthey're constantly, if they're
possibly processing, maybe Ineed to step into it.
You know, it seems like a lotof times in a lot of ways that
(40:02):
we kind of wait until we're in areally bad spot before we step
in and get help.
You know, like I step in tolose weight, not when I gained
five pounds, but when I gained,you know, if somebody gained 50
pounds it's like okay, it's timeto change gears, whereas the
indicator was at five pounds,and do you find that something
that that holds true with?
This is kind of we get to a Idon't want to say a breaking
(40:26):
point, but getting closer tothat breaking point before we
step in for help, is that moreof the common thread?
And why would yeah?
Speaker 1 (40:34):
Well, that's one of the things that I'm trying to
get in front of, and so I'minteracting with some Marines
who were in the withdrawal fromAfghanistan and they're in their
early twenties and for me, youknow, if I had someone like me
one, two, three, four yearsafter I got in the Marine Corps,
you know, putting resources infront of me and encouraging me
(40:56):
to take advantage of them, I'dprobably be in a better place
than I was for the last, youknow, 10, 20 years, See what
yours is.
So I got out well, not quite 20years ago, 15 years ago.
Speaker 2 (41:11):
So yeah, we're there, yeah, we're there.
Speaker 1 (41:16):
And so that's, that's one of the things that I'm
trying to learn from myexperience on and do better for
the, for the future veterans,the veterans that we're making
today.
Speaker 2 (41:33):
And that would be a, I think, a huge thing.
I know when we got out, I goton no five and I would imagine
yours was very similar, but itwas just kind of like yep, see
you later.
And we legitimately justchecked out.
I know we had to go throughthat.
I think it was the TAPS program, which definitely didn't talk
(41:53):
about any type of hey, you justdid two deployments to Iraq.
You know, you just went through.
You know several instances ofcombat, here's best practices
and I think just the fact thatthere's awareness of it and then
making it okay.
You know other people likethere's a, there's a pathway
that other veterans have goneIEU and making it okay, I could
(42:15):
see that as being a huge guidinglight.
You know, if you can in a wayto help people know what to do
and that it is okay to go, do it.
Speaker 1 (42:23):
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, the military's missionis to win wars right, not to
create great, well-roundedcitizens, and that's no
criticism, that's just a simplestatement of fact.
But you know, 7% roughly, ofpeople choose to serve in a
uniform and when these peopletake the uniform off, they
(42:47):
remain some of our greatestcultural assets.
But so many of them arelanguishing through you know
depression medication.
You know our comatose on acouch for you know, and we would
be well-served to rehabilitatethose people and get them back
(43:08):
into the machine and workingtoward a better tomorrow for
everyone, because I stronglybelieve that our uniform service
people are the mostcompassionate among us, even if
it's displayed in adispassionate way.
Speaker 2 (43:33):
What do you mean by that?
With that, they're the mostcompassionate among us.
Speaker 1 (43:37):
Well, I think that it's.
I think it's extremelycourageous to put your life on
the line for your fellow human.
And so you know, militarypeople don't necessarily come
across in the most obviouslyperceivable compassionate way,
(44:02):
but their actions at their coreare the most courageous and the
most compassionate.
Speaker 2 (44:13):
It just made me think of.
And he's a good.
He's actually a Marine as well,but he's a bike club a
motorcycle club is what how herefers to it but it's a group of
some of the nicest people everrough exterior, yet if you jump
(44:35):
in and get to know them, it'slike some of the nicest people
ever.
I would never cross one of them, but you know genuinely good
people and it just for somereason it just made me think of
that, maybe because Jim is anactual Marine as well and we did
some.
We actually went.
I met him working for a privatesecurity company after we both
of us had gotten out.
But yeah, that's interestingand you brought up something
(45:01):
earlier and it made me think ofthis book that I read recently
and he talks about how we allwant the cure for any brought up
cancer.
Just like the cure for cancer,what's the cure for?
And like billions of dollarshas been spent on the cure for
cancer and that's really likethe sexy topic.
It's.
The sexy talking point is howdo we cure this thing?
(45:22):
But he said that I don'tremember his title, but the head
in charge of everything.
He said you know, if we put afraction of the dollars we're
putting into this trying to finda cure for cancer, into
preventing it, we would havesaved just half of the people,
like so many people get saved,just because we got into.
(45:44):
But he said it's just not asexy conversation.
You know, getting out ahead ofit is not.
It's not an intriguing, it'snot a conversation somebody
wants to jump into because it'slike well, eat, healthier
exercise.
You know where's the other side.
It's what is the magic pill tocure it.
And I'm seeing parallels withthis as well and I love that
you're taking that path lesstaken Like, how do we get out in
(46:06):
the front side of it versusbeing there?
Speaker 1 (46:10):
Yeah, well, that's a great point, and it reminds me
that you know, if you add up allthe deaths attributed to murder
, war and terrorism in a givenyear will not equal the amount
of people who kill themselves ina given year.
It doesn't even come close.
And we've already talked abouthow that number of suicides is
(46:30):
vastly underreported in thefirst place.
So, but you know, the attentionis on those more salacious
topics.
Speaker 2 (46:44):
And another thing that it made me think of earlier
as well was just the militarybeing a business like they're in
the business of being creatingwarfighters and winning wars,
and it would be.
You know, I met a lady recentlywho's a sales trainer, sales
coach, and so she goes to allthese businesses like she works
for I don't remember theorganization.
(47:05):
She goes into differentcompanies all over the country
and just trains them on how tosell, and she actually gets
contracted out by the branchesof the military to train the
recruiters on how to sell.
And it made me sit back andthink I was like man.
I never really thought about it.
But the military, the MarineCorps in our instance, like
their job is to sell you onbeing in the Marine Corps.
And it would be very similar tolike if you went to a car
(47:28):
dealership and you had asalesperson and I'm like no, no,
no, you don't want one of these, you know it just, it would
never happen.
Like the military has to dotheir job in order to keep and
create this machine of winningwars and it just wouldn't be
good to step in.
And well, it just it wouldn'tbe a good look, I don't think,
but I love that you're steppingin to help out.
Speaker 1 (47:51):
Well, and you know you made the point that you and
I are getting old, and so youknow it's incumbent upon us, as
we move into our middle age andlike true, true adulthood, you
know, to dictate what our andthe generations behind us, you
(48:15):
know what the post-militaryreality is going to be for them.
You know generations have comebefore us and they've done what
they've done, but now we'removing into the driver's seat.
Speaker 2 (48:30):
What would you say?
One thing that, as I do moreinterviews and I and I think
this is going to be a big onefor the younger generation,
which is what made me think ofit as you saying, that is, you
had mentioned earlier that weput our lives on the line and I
find, as I talk to more and moreof a younger generation of
veteran they have.
(48:51):
They really struggle with thefact that they didn't.
They feel like they didn't geta chance to go put their lives
on the line, ie go on adeployment overseas, and it
seems to be a big struggle rightnow that a lot of people
struggle simply because theysigned up and they didn't get to
go into any sort of combat.
Have you, do you see a lot ofthat?
Speaker 1 (49:12):
Yeah, absolutely.
I see, I see depression aroundthat, but you know that that was
, I think that was present forthe Vietnam era and I'm sure it
was present for the for theKorean World War era as well.
Is is the people who didn'thave the opportunity to serve,
(49:37):
and particularly in a combatrole.
I think some of them carry someregret and guilt around that
and that is its own, that is hisown trauma and that that that
is its own, that that fuelsdepression as well.
Speaker 2 (49:54):
It was something that I, again, before interviewing
and interacting with people on adeeper level, I never would
have thought of.
You know, because I never throwshade at anybody that didn't
deploy Like man, thanks forserving.
Nobody asked me if I wanted togo, I signed up, and it was just
.
They just said you're going andit wasn't really a choice, and
I think that that's how I'vealways viewed it.
(50:16):
But I can definitely understandwhy there would be some just
some hard feelings If you wantedto deploy, like you said, you
signed up because of 9-11.
If you didn't get to go, therewould easily be some hard
feelings with it.
It also made me think of and youbrought up Vietnam and I was
(50:38):
talking to I know we are comingthrough, it was Brad, that's how
I got your information and he'sdone so many interviews with
Vietnam veterans, world War IIveterans and he was talking
about the Honor Flight and thatthe first time they integrated
the Vietnam veterans on thoseHonor flights that he said it
was a very difficult flightbecause the World War II
(51:00):
veterans kind of just lookeddifferently at the Vietnam
veterans just because it was ayou know, they said it was a
different war, and it makes mewant to explore more.
It just gave me the thoughthere and I wanted to ask you if
you've seen a lot of it.
But it seems like there's a lotof veteran versus veteran
conflict as well, whereas Iheard recently some people say
whether combat veterans whichkind of anybody that wasn't
(51:23):
would feel less than because ofit Is that?
Do you see that as well aswhere there's almost internal
conflict between veterans?
Speaker 1 (51:31):
Yeah, I see it happen .
I know that also there was withthe VFWs and those type of
clubs.
There was a lot of conflictbetween the older generations of
veterans in the Vietnam era.
It's.
You know I don't necessarilyunderstand it and you know it's
(51:57):
unfortunate.
People like to be tribalistic.
You know they like to have agroup and then a group that's
other than and people will findall kinds of reasons to draw
lines in the sand around.
You know their differences andthat's sad and I wish people
(52:20):
could could focus on what theyhave in common more than they
have.
You know what's what'sdifferent?
Speaker 2 (52:29):
And it's man, I completely agree, but finding
the commonality inside of it, itjust it struck me because
there's one thing that I saw andthen, once he mentioned it, it
almost gave me peace of mind,knowing that it happened in
every generation's wars prior toours, that there, and it
(52:50):
doesn't make it okay, it doesn'tmean that we don't have
something to do.
But for a long time I was likeman, I can't believe that we're
doing this to each other,because it seems like veterans
having conflict is like wait,it's.
We're not in this great spacewhere we can afford to, you know
, rock the boat.
We had a lot of veteransstruggling, whether they went to
combat or not.
Speaker 1 (53:12):
So I don't know if you ever heard this joke, but it
goes.
What did the first ever Marinesay to the second ever Marine?
And the punchline is you shouldhave been in the old core,
right.
So you know, I guess, goingback to you know, we're, we're
(53:37):
the role models.
Now we're in the driver's seat,now we have the opportunity to
dictate what veteran culturelooks like going forward.
And so I guess you know,talking about this is important
and you know, and also walkingthe walk about it and
(53:57):
demonstrating it and calling itout when we see it being done
wrong is are all things that wecan do to try and improve that.
Speaker 2 (54:09):
I love you mentioned that, the calling it out because
I think all too often when wedon't speak up, that the silence
lets the other person know thatwe probably agree.
I mean when somebody, whennobody says anything, everybody
that was quiet they see that as,oh, I'm doing the right thing
here.
Other people agree with me, butthe moment we step up and say,
hey, let's, let's have a quickconversation, this isn't okay.
Speaker 1 (54:35):
So it's not so well.
There's no lack of courage inthis community, and so let's,
let's leverage that to to have,you know, uncomfortable
conversations around beingbetter people.
I mean, why not?
Speaker 2 (54:49):
Yeah, oh, marshall, thank you so much for jumping on
.
I really appreciate it.
I love all your insight.
If somebody would love to getin touch with you, what are the
best ways for them to reach out,find you and to really dig into
more of what you're doing?
Speaker 1 (55:05):
Yeah, you can find us on our website here at combat
recovery foundationorg and I'vegot a.
I've got an email on there ofmy my phone numbers on there and
you know.
If you want to talk about anyof these topics or anything else
, I encourage you to look me upon there and let's start a
(55:29):
dialogue.
Speaker 2 (55:30):
I would definitely encourage you to reach out.
I know I've reached outrecently and Marshall has been
just very giving of his time andconversation, so definitely
reach out to Marshall and checkout his website and Marshall,
thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (55:44):
Yeah, thanks for having me and thanks for thanks
for utilizing this platform toget you know good messages out
into the world.
Speaker 2 (55:54):
I find that I didn't know that I wanted to do that
and then, when I started this,it once I saw the benefit of
just having these conversationsand it's just there's so many
people doing great things likeyourself and just helping to
raise awareness, for it is amassive, massive thing.
So thank you Great.
Speaker 1 (56:12):
Thank you.
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