ADHD and Trust with Melissa Orlov

Melissa Orlov, a marriage consultant, a top expert in how ADHD affects relationships, and an award-winning author, returns to speak with Ameé about how trust can be lost and regained in relationships where a partner has ADHD . 

In this episode, you will hear: 

• How trust can affect friendships
• The "trust metric" and how it is applied to repairing trust between partners
• Why punishments won't work in correcting behaviors in people with ADHD
• How emotional dysregulation is more common for people with ADHD and how it gets them in trouble at work
• Why criticism is a common tender point for people with ADHD

Resources
https://www.adhdmarriage.com/
The ADHD Effect on Marriage (Available in print and audio)

Links to buy The Fearless Woman’s Guide to Starting a Business

Amazon (Audio, Print, Kindle Versions): https://amzn.to/3daO7nA

Barnes and Noble- https://bit.ly/FearlessWomansGuide

Bookshop- https://bit.ly/FearlessWomanBookshop

Visit https://www.ameequiriconi.com/ for more articles about self-help, healing from trauma, leadership, business, and more!

Episode Transcript

Amee Quiriconi (00:00):
Hi, everybody.
Welcome back, I have with me aguest that I had on last season.
This is a Melissa Orlov andshe's a marriage consultant and
an expert in how ADHD actuallyaffects relationships. And she's
also the award winning author ofa book called The ADHD effect on
marriage, which was awarded thebest psychology book of 2010.
And she had a more recent book,The couple's guide to thriving

(00:21):
with ADHD that she co wrote, andactually at one three Book
Awards, including the bestpsychology book of 2014. And at
the end of our last interview,you know, I cut it, we say
goodbye, and it's all good, themusic plays, but usually I have
a conversation with my guestfollowing it. And when I bring
somebody on the show for thefirst time, usually, we're only
able to kind of kind of skim thesurface of the entire topic of

(00:43):
this, and it's so big, and wecan never really get down deep
into anything. So one of thequestions I always ask my
experts is, do we covereverything we should? And then I
asked, you know, is there aplace that we think that we
could deep dive in? Would you beinterested in coming back and
Melissa immediately said that toher if there was a deep dive in
this topic, because we could godeep everywhere, it would be on
the subject of what ADHD doeswith trust. And so that's where

(01:07):
we're back again, she's going tobe taking some time off. And so
I'm very grateful that I got herin before she takes off for the
summer. So you all will belistening to it while she is on
vacation. So thank you, andwelcome back to the show.
Melissa.

Melissa Orlov (01:22):
Thank you very much. I just for that vacation
think kayak or something likethat. So good. So good. So I
have to ask then, is itwhitewater kayaking, or is it
like sea kayaking? No, I amdefinitely not that that.
fearless I'm sorry to say.

Amee Quiriconi (01:39):
Well, I do have a dream of going down to Lake
Powell and through AntelopeCanyon on a kayak and take a
camera and just you know, I liketo whitewater and I haven't
whitewater kayak, I'vewhitewater rafted a lot. But
there are many places in thiscountry that I definitely want
to get it, you know, get in akayak and go exploring. And I
like the I like the creeks andlakes better than I like to see

(02:00):
up here in the Northwest.
There's a lot of sea kayaking.
And it's, you know, not mything. I like the walls around
me, I think.
Yeah. Yeah. Well, um,so before we get straight to the
talk about trust, I want toimagine that maybe somebody is
actually listening to thisepisode for the first time, and
that they're probably trying toexplore adult ADHD, either
wondering if it's something thatmaybe has never been diagnosed

(02:21):
in them. And it could besomething that maybe a
reflection of some somechallenges that they've noticed
in their life, that's, you know,seemed like it could be ADHD or
they're listening, becausethey're curious if it's
something that their partner as,and you and I talked about this
in the last episode, becausethere are actually a lot of
adults that never get diagnosedas children because usually,
when we talk, we think aboutADHD is this hyperactive

(02:43):
activity disorder in childrenand they can't sit sit in their
seats and whatnot. But I had afriend that was diagnosed with
ADHD in his 40s after his sonwas diagnosed. And so there are
a lot of adults that have nevergotten a diagnosis that probably
should have. So it can youdefine what ADHD is for, for the
listeners here before we jumpin?

Melissa Orlov (03:08):
A couple of very quick ways to say, oh, gee,
maybe we should be looking atthat. And one of them is
definitely if you have a kid whohas been diagnosed with ADHD
chances are quite good, sinceit's hereditary, that at least
one of the parents has ADHD. Sodefinitely ask somebody that
question. Another one is, if youhave an adult who really
genuinely wants to do things,particularly tasks and other

(03:31):
things around the house, andsomehow never really seems to
consistently be able to do them,they often forget or whatever.
That's another indicator thatADHD might be present. And
that's because one of the topthat in fact, the number one
symptom of adult ADHD isdistractibility. And this isn't
like a little bit ofdistraction. This is chronic

(03:52):
distractibility where you havetrouble completing your
sentences, because you're offimagining something else. This
is having trouble remembering todo things, that kind of thing.
Also, impulsivity is acharacteristic of ADHD if you
have adult ADHD, you have had itsince you were a kid, but you

(04:15):
but as adults, our lives getmuch more complex, much more
stressful, which makes symptomsget worse, and also many more
boring tasks. So, so many peoplealso we weren't looking for it
30 or 40 years ago in theschools like they do now. So a
lot of people about 80% ofadults who have ADHD are

(04:36):
undiagnosed, so huge number. Soanyway, it's distractibility,
impulsivity, emotionality,people who have quick triggers
might be because of ADHD, if yousee quick triggers plus easily
overwhelmed and lots of shame,that's that's a good indicator
that ADHD might be there and Andthen there are things like

(05:01):
trouble planning, difficultywith time management where
you're constantly tardy, or youlose track of time, all the
time, losing things, misplacingthings, all those kinds of
things would indicate that ADHDmight be present. And it would
be worth taking a look, thereare a lot of people who have
some characteristics, but notfull blown ADHD. And, but, but

(05:21):
also a good part, you know, 578percent of the adult population
does have ADHD,

Amee Quiriconi (05:27):
wow, that's a pretty high percentage,
actually, when you think aboutit, you know, about how many
people that would have it andmay not actually know. And I
know, this is one of those, youknow, having having friends that
have been diagnosed with it, andsee, you just outlined
everything that I've learned tounderstand about them with grace
and compassion. And that's why Ithink that, you know, the topic

(05:48):
is really important to coverbecause a lot of these behaviors
are misunderstood. And they comeoff, as you know, you know,
disrespectful, or, you know, youknow, like, they don't really
care about me, or whatnot, whichis how you ended up really kind
of evolving a book and a careerout of helping people understand
that, you know, behind a personwho has ADHD isn't malice or

(06:10):
uncaring. It's the opposite ofit. It's just understanding the
forces that are really going onin the head that are causing,
you know, the distractibility,and the impulsivity and things
like that.

Melissa Orlov (06:23):
Exactly. One of the, the great misconceptions
about people with ADHD, becausethey have trouble completing
things is that they're lazy, forexample, and it's just not true.
You know, in the vast, I mean,maybe there are a few people
with ADHD who are lazy, but ifthey're not people I'm running
into they're working really hardto get that ADHD brain to

(06:45):
perform for them. Right, right.
It's overwhelmed, right? Likeit's, you know, overwhelm is
common and, and frustration and,you know, all sorts of things.
But in the neurology of ADHDmeans that these things pop up
regularly, the symptoms pop upregularly. And they tend to get
in the way. And, and so thereare all sorts of coping

(07:07):
strategies who, for people whoare undiagnosed, and but have
ADHD, they've got the symptoms,they just don't know, they don't
have the full treatment stuff,because they don't know about
it. And so they're doing allthese coping strategies that
sometimes don't work for them,actually, in the long run.
Anyway, I don't want to getsidetracked here, because we're

(07:29):
supposed to be talking abouttrust.

Amee Quiriconi (07:35):
You're coming back down to zero. Yeah. Because
as I'm listening to you, and I'mthinking about all the coping
strategies, you know, and I'mthinking about people that I
that I knew that were diagnosedlater in life, that, you know,
their coping strategy sometimeswas, you know, doing anything,
and then the friends and thepeople around them, judging
them, you know, shaming them fornot being able, and, you know,

(07:58):
it'd be to get angry or justdismissive. I mean, it's like, I
don't know, I want to dodifferently, I don't know how to
do differently. So I'm justgoing to allow the cards are
going to fall where they fall.
And that, you know, and ifyou're upset with me, I'm sorry,
but, but I don't know what elseto do.

Melissa Orlov (08:11):
Yeah. And then it's a really important point
that you make. And so it's worthpursuing, which is one of the
most logical and best strategiesfor somebody who has ADHD, who
has a pattern of trying to dosomething and doing it in a way
that's unexpected, for example,or doing it in completely or

(08:32):
something and having negativefeedback for the performance
that they did. That it's verylogical to say, you know, maybe
I shouldn't do this thing,because I'm just gonna get
myself in trouble or, or it'ssomebody I really care about is
going to get angry at me. It'snot just about they're sort of
putting up their hands, they'reactually responding in a very
logical way to the world aroundthem and the past experiences

(08:55):
they've had, this is part of thepower of understanding what ADHD
is all about, you can look atsomebody go, Well, they're not
actually a jerk, or they're notactually somebody who doesn't
want to get engaged, they wantto get engaged more than
anything, but it doesn't makesense for them to get engaged,
if every time they get engaged,they get abused for it in some
way, you know, so. So it reallyis empowering to find out if you

(09:19):
have ADHD.

Amee Quiriconi (09:21):
Now, is there talk about some stigmas before
we get into the trust because Ithink again, this kind of
connection with trust and thestigma that I think about is you
know as we as we talk a lot moreso about mental health You know,
there isn't a blood test we cango take or an X ray we can go
that has a definitive like yourbone is broke or you're you're

(09:42):
anemic or whatever when it comesto things that are going on in
the brain. And and so I youknow, do people think that ADHD
is an excuse for just not tryinghard enough, and I'm saying that
with a look on my face. This isI don't believe that statement,
but yet when Talk about thesymptoms, you know, there might
be a lot of people, you know,scratching their head, you know,

(10:04):
going, you know, that seemsconvenient, you know, and
thinking that somebody couldjust try harder, you know what I
mean?

Melissa Orlov (10:10):
And you hear you do hear that comment,
particularly, you'll hear itfrom disgruntled partners, who
are really tired of trying toget an ADHD partner to follow
through on things, not realizingthat the way to have that happen
is to understand the ADHD isthere and then put the ADHD
friendly strategies in placethat enable that performance

(10:32):
that they're looking for. Theythink that well, if I'm just you
know, if I just, you know,remind enough, I will motivate
my partner, if it'suncomfortable enough, they'll
get motivated. And if thepartner resists, again, maybe
for a logical reason, then theythink the partner doesn't love
them or it doesn't care or islazy or whatever. The
misinterpretations aroundundiagnosed, adult ADHD are

(10:57):
horribly crippling for and Iwork with couples for couples,
but just even for the adults,who have them, even their own
misperceptions, they start tobelieve I can't do anything I
you know, I'm in competent, I'mnot I'm a failure. And all they
is not the case there. Theycould have an amazing skill set,
but they're in the wrong job.
Because the job wants stuff fromthem that doesn't fit their,

(11:20):
their ADHD skills, or, or they,they, you know, they're really,
they're fearless, but they're anaccountant. I mean, instead of a
ski ski coach or something, Imean, all sorts of things that
you can once you start learningabout ADHD, better fit your life
to to it, and that includescouples and friends and etc.

Amee Quiriconi (11:43):
Yeah, yeah, for sure. You bringing up the the
fitment to it, you know, one ofthe things that I do outside of,
you know, podcasting about allthis stuff is actually working
with talent optimization. Andpart of that is actually being
able to have a person, do anassessment of their natural
behaviors and preferences andthings. And then you actually

(12:04):
see on a diagram where you plotlike whether or not you can, you
know, you prefer to focus ondetail oriented tasks, or if you
need, you know, someflexibility. And when you take
that and apply it to jobs, andyou look at what behaviors are
required for jobs, you canactually do better alignment
with people to that based onthose natural tendencies, which
then helps for for a person whokeeps pushing themselves into

(12:28):
fields or paths. And then youknow, because I hate seeing
people feel like they're failingwhen they're not, like you just
said, they're just not the rightfit, like, the wonderful brain
they have is designed to do somereally great things. But it may
not be to do that particularjob. And that doesn't mean
anything about, you know, us aspeople. And so these
conversations are so importantfor that for people to again,

(12:49):
remove shame, you know, aroundthe whole the whole topic. Now,
when I said, what, where do wego, you said, trust? So why did
you say that that was the topicthat we really needed to bury
ourselves into and focus for abit on.

Melissa Orlov (13:06):
Look how long it took us to get there. So So
trust is a huge issue becauseone of the characters so if you
have somebody who's highlydistracted, highly impulsive, I
didn't talk about the now andnot now time zones, but that's
also an issue has trouble withtime. stuff I should describe
should tell you what now and notto have time zones are so in

(13:28):
with ADHD, there is the very,very, very present moment focus
that is part of the neurology ofADHD, it has to do with
executive functions and etc. Iwon't go into all those details.
But anyway, you're very, verymuch in the present moment. And
that includes when you'redistracted, you know, suddenly
you're off in a differentpresent, but you're you know,
you're following that thing.
When you're not in the presentmoment, everything else is then

(13:51):
not now the past, the present,you know, etc. So that's, that's
one quality. It's a great way tothink about ADHD nurses, you
know, you're you're in the nowwhen you have when you have a
relationship. So again, I workwith couples, but any
relationship trust is based uponsome pretty basic things that

(14:13):
revolve around reliability.
Among other things. JOHN Gottmandid a lot of research in this
area. And he came up with atrust equation that includes
what he calls transparency,which is essentially you've got
my back, you promise to dosomething, you end up doing it.
And then what he calls positivemoral ethics or something like

(14:37):
that. I can't remember exactword. But it's about you know,
that, you know, somebody has agood set of values and morals as
their ethical. So the ADHD folksrun into a huge problem with
this first area of transparencyand reliability. Because one of
the qualities of ADHD is thatyou are inconsistent. Sometimes

(14:58):
you're really good. Doingsomething and that tends to be
driven by you're not neurology,you're really good when it's
rewarding when it's new, whenit's interesting, when it's
really important to you, whenit's right in front of you in
the now, you know, when it's anemergency and the chemicals are

(15:18):
running through your brain, youknow, that kind of thing. Not so
good when it's boring when it'sin the future, or like, can't
really be in the past, but whenit's in the future, when you
have to plan for it, when youhave to complete it, in the end
part, like the paperwork on theproject is so boring, that kind
of stuff. And so, or when it hasto be done exactly at a certain

(15:39):
time. It many people with ADHDare kind of procrastinators, and
they miss deadlines, or theyforget about them or whatever.
So. So that leads to realproblems with that, and
particularly when you don't knowabout the ADHD. So that's why I
want to talk about trust,because it has a huge impact.

(16:00):
ADHD has a huge impact on thesort of very basic groundwork
for relationships.

Amee Quiriconi (16:06):
Well, and I mean, I know you and I had gone
back forth on some emails, youknow about this kind of leading
up and getting ourselvesprepared for the conversation
because the, you know, you workwith couples and, and with
individuals and managing andunderstanding and strategies
for, you know, working withtheir ADH brain. And you know,
and I work with businesses andorganizations, and I try to

(16:27):
bring a trauma informed or, youknow, an informed perspective to
leadership and understandingpeople in the real humaneness of
all the people, and all of ourfoibles that we all bring to the
table. And so when we talk abouttrust, I mean, I'm sitting there
thinking about, you know, peoplethat are not only dealing with
the difficulties in theirpersonal relationships, but also
at work, that if the samethings, because, you know, a

(16:50):
relationship is a relationship,whether it's a co worker, or a
friend or a partner, and howimportant it would be for
somebody who may be struggling,and probably suffering all the
negative consequences of that,right, not just from their
spouses or partners, but even atgoing to work and getting called
in the office or demoted orwhatever it may be, because of,

(17:10):
you know, having this difficultyand then not knowing how to get
a handle on it. Right, likeuntil there's a diagnosis.

Melissa Orlov (17:17):
Yeah, that's part of it. And and, you know, trust
is in the workplace, it can bethings like if you are if you
are deadline driven, because thedeadline gives you the
adrenaline that you need toovercome the low dopamine that
you have, when you have ADHD in,you know, going on. And you have
other people who either have tocontribute to the thing that

(17:39):
you're creating, and you're notready to ask for their
contribution until, you know,11pm the night before, or, or
you know, you you actually don'tget to the deadline, or you're
supposed to go to a meeting andwhatever, those things can be
really hard on the people whoare around you in the workplace,

(18:00):
as well as obviously at home.
Not everybody who has ADHDactually struggles in the
workplace, it's pretty common,particularly when you get people
who are entrepreneurs,successful entrepreneurs, or, or
pretty high up, that they haveenough staff around them to take
care of the weaknesses, and thenhelp keep them organized,
somebody who, you know, makesure their calendar is filled in

(18:21):
properly and reminds them ofwhen they're supposed to be
someplace, etc. And so you canbe have a wildly successful
adult with ADHD in theworkplace, who's got really
great support or in themilitary, and, and, or in an
emergency room or something, andthen still have trouble in other
relationships in their lives.

(18:44):
And so it doesn't, it's notacross the board for every
individual,

Amee Quiriconi (18:47):
right, which I can imagine, would if, if that's
the case, further undermines thetrust, especially in the
personal relationship, becauseyou have the partner, the non
ADHD partner, let's say, who'ssitting there seeing this person
perform at their job, and thencome home and you know, air
quotes around the word failingat the relationship, as if
they're a stout like setting alower priority for their home

(19:10):
life versus what they do atwork, maybe not being aware that
they have a support structurethat's filling in the gaps
around them at work and makingit look like that this is
choice, you know, that they'rejust choosing to do something
that's different at home,

Melissa Orlov (19:23):
you'll hear that sometimes when you approach a
successful business person, manor woman with you know, you
might have ADHD, they say, andeven some of the medical
professionals who don'tunderstand ADHD will say, Well,
no, you can't have ADHD becauseyou're so successful. It's like,
No, no, no, no, no. That's notthe way it works. So the person

(19:47):
who's at home does feel likethey're not as important or the
person who has ADHD says, well,it must be your fault. Because
at work, I'm so successful athome I'm not so successful. And
that's because you're so mean tome or your so angry all the time
or whatever, and it is not atthe home stuff. It's a
completely different room,different set of expectations,

(20:09):
different set of tasks, most ofwhich are boring, many of which
are boring, not all. And so theydon't light up the ADHD brain in
the same way, much less reward,you're much more likely in the
home environment to have apartner who says, Well, yeah, of
course, you're supposed to dothis thing. I shouldn't have to

(20:29):
thank you for all the thingsyou're doing and recognizing.
And of course, all thatrecognition at work is one of
the motivators. But not youdon't get it at home as much as
he should. By the way, one ofthe things that I work with
couples on is saying, hey,acknowledge ever all of the good
stuff that happens whether youknow, whether you think society
tells you that somebody shouldjust do the dishes and not, you

(20:53):
know, not have a positiveexperience or recognition for
that, forget all that stuff,recognize each other and say
positive things as much as youcan. Mm hmm.

Amee Quiriconi (21:03):
So when we've talked a bit, we've mentioned
this back and forth, and I wantto make sure that I don't lose
anybody who doesn't study stuffas much as you do here. And
we're talking about dopamine. Sowe have these chemicals that the
body produces. And dopamine isthe reward chemical. It's the
jolt that we get and I had aconversation just before with
another interview talking aboutresilience. And, you know, I,

(21:26):
I've gone through the selfassessment, cuz I've wondered,
you know, like many people do,like, do I have ADHD, because I
do keep a lot of things going.
And I, I do fill back up throughdopamine, like, I realize that
like, my resilience, maybebecause I like to win, and I
like to go get rewarded. And soof course, I you know, the only
way I get to the finish line isif I'm willing to pick myself

(21:46):
back up and keep going. And, andso I thought it was interesting
when I read about this, becauseI wouldn't have thought of, you
know, seeking rewards as havinglow dopamine. To me, it's like
the opposite of like, it meansyou have high levels of it, you
need to keep it replenished. Butwith ADHD, it's, it's so low
that you actually are lookingforward and looking for the

(22:06):
exciting experiences. So is thatis that pretty universal? That
the for the people that arelooking Okay, so for the people
that are always looking for thatnext adventure, that next cool
thing, you know, thecompetitiveness are is because
the lower levels of dopaminebeing produced, and so we're
looking for ways to be able to,to, to jack it up,

Melissa Orlov (22:28):
right? It's not, and it's dopamine and serotonin.
But yes, that's exactly what'sgoing on. JOHN ratey, who's one
of the top like brain experts inthe country and knows a lot
about ADHD. He says, you couldcall ADHD, a reward Deficiency
Syndrome, if you wanted to nameit, make it really ugly. But
that's the concept, you seekthings that give you a sense of

(22:52):
reward and give you squirts ofdopamine, literally, like we do
in a video game. One of thethings that does it give you
squirts of dopamine in yourbrain, it's set up to do that to
be rewarding to keep youinvolved. So that's like, you
know, really great if you haveADHD.

Amee Quiriconi (23:12):
Yeah. Um, and so I think that that's interesting,
because then it leads to that,like you said, the impulsivity
because, you know, I, I think wetalked about this in the last
episode, you know, My son wasconcerned that maybe he had
ADHD, and we did the assessment.
And he actually didn't have allthe markers for it. And I had
wondered when I knew because Iknew the same thing that you had
said that if your child islooked at and may have it then

(23:33):
can fall back on a parent. Andlooking between him and his dad,
it was definitely me if therewas going to be one of us that
had it. It was it was falling onmy shoulders because of who I
am. But we cleared it. But yeah,that doesn't change the fact
that I'm a dopamine seekingperson who gets a you know, a
reward system, high fiving,myself and all of that. But it
did frame the, you know, kind ofthe experience a little bit. And

(23:55):
here I am my own brain just likewhere am I going with this
question? I know I

Melissa Orlov (24:03):
know a little bit more, which is it's dope. It's,
it's not just reward, it's alsothe attention system. And the
impulsivity also has to do withessentially what Ned Halliwell
likes to call a poor breaks. So,you know, we have a lot we have
lots of emotions in our thathappen for us as people. And for
example, if you if you areneurotypical and you have some

(24:26):
anger comes up, you have theability to step back for a
second and say, Do I need to putthe brakes on this? Should I say
this thing that I'm thinkingabout? And stop yourself? Those
are the brakes, the brainsbrakes, people with ADHD have
very weak brakes. They havereally fast brains and really
weak brakes. And so the thingthat you might normally stop

(24:48):
yourself on just comes out, andthat's the impulsivity whether
it's an action or it's verbal orwhatever. So it's more
complicated than just openingbut it but dopamine plays a huge
role and it is low Okay, solet's go on to trust.
Okay,

Unknown (25:03):
let's keep going.

Melissa Orlov (25:05):
Just saying,

Unknown (25:06):
I have so much to say on trust, I know Go

Melissa Orlov (25:08):
Go for it. Well, I so I was thinking about this
question of trust andfriendships and thinking about
it from the perspective of, ifyou have a friend who has ADHD
or a partner who has ADHD, thekinds of things that you would
see that would be confusing,right, because one of the things
that's really important, whenyou know about ADHD, or

(25:32):
suspected is, is really correctinterpretation. So I was
thinking about things like, thenow and not now, right. So
you're you have a now and notnow person, which means that if
you're in front of them, andyou're talking to them, and you
have their full attention, whichyou might not, so then you're
really there with them. And theycan go back and forth with you
and you know, the whole bit. Butif you're in the Not now, you're

(25:54):
not like you're not even ifyou're their partner. And so
from a friendship, it's reallyconfusing. Like I've had a 20
somethings with ADHD say to me,I have real trouble maintaining
my friendships, because I don'tremember to text my friends or
to stay in touch with them. AndI've observed this with a lot of

(26:17):
adults with ADHD. And of course,it's the same thing with a
partner. Like you're at theoffice, you've promised to pick
up the kids, you forget whattime it is. And suddenly, yeah,
something happens you, I'm 20minutes late, and you just eat
they were in the knot now. Yeah.
So that can be very confusingalong the lines of reliability

(26:38):
or not, but also, are they eveninterested in me. And that's an
aspect of trust and friendship,that ADHD impacts, that's one of
them. And then I was thinkingabout some other things like
timeliness, you know, a lot ofthese things. If you don't know

(26:58):
about ADHD, communicatesomething along the lines of I
don't love you, I don't careabout you, I'm not thinking
about you, or whatever, I'mrude. The and that's a moral
diagnosis, which I totallydisagree with. And 99% of cases
occasionally, don't. But um, butfor example, somebody who has,
so an ADHD person's relationshipwith time is very fluid. So,

(27:23):
very poor time, estimatorstypically can get into hyper
focus on something that they'revery interested in. And when you
are in hyper focus, it's reallyhard to get out of it, but you
don't have control over whenyou're in hyper focus, it just
happens. because something isvery interesting. So again, it's
unpredictable. But if you're, ifsomebody is really in hyper

(27:47):
focus, like at work, and theyforget to pick up the kids, or
whatever it is, the result isthe same, which is less, like,
they're not paying attention.
And then you have people who arelike, always late, yeah, the
person who's supposed to leavethe house at six, and then six
o'clock comes around, theiralarm goes off, they go, okay.
And then they do a 45 transit,45 minute transition routine,

(28:10):
that includes taking a shower,changing their clothes, walking
the dog, and, and, and theirpartner sitting downstairs
going, ah, you know. And, and soagain, people start to say,
You're not trustworthy. Um, and,you know, if you think about

(28:30):
that language, like trust,worthy, I would say, the person,
the core person is worthy oftrust, unless they've done
something really horrendous,which takes them into a
sidelined category. Buttypically, they're worthy of
trust. But they have thesebehaviors that are symptomatic

(28:52):
behaviors, that are keeping themfrom behaving in a way that
fulfills that promise. And sowhen I talk with people about
how to rebuild trust, you haveto take the ADHD into account.
But the ADHD person also has totake responsibility for becoming
as reliable as possible in thissituation, and I'll hand it over

(29:16):
to you at that. Well,

Amee Quiriconi (29:17):
I was so thinking about that, because I
mean, that's with a lot of ourown growth, right, so you get a
diagnosis. But that's not even50% of the way there, that's
just a label now in a directionto go. There's still a journey
that has to be taken, if itmatters to be able to have a
better outcome or to see somechanges in there. And I think

(29:37):
that goes back to a little bitof the comment that I made
earlier is that you know thatbeing diagnosed with ADHD just
opens up the door and gives youan opportunity. It doesn't give
you an excuse to continuebecause it can be very harmful
for our connections in ourrelationships, you know, just
from a, you know, a human tohuman perspective, but then also
professional implications willtake us back to Work that, you

(30:01):
know, if you have a job to do,and it requires that you hit
your deadlines, it you know,your labels great, and maybe
some accommodations can be madefor you. But you know, again, it
there's there could be, youknow, other impacts or negative
impacts to it. So me having awillingness, just like any of us
that are trying to overcomehurdles of any sort, you know,
or depression, anxiety, thingsthat we can change or understand

(30:23):
and, and apply this knowledge toour life is on us ultimately, to
be able to do that. Now, when wetalk about the trust factor it
made, it makes me think of youwrote an article about this. And
I know, we touched on this inthe last conversation, which is,
you know, the beginning of arelationship, the ADHD unless
the partner knows, and they havethe diagnosis to say, hey, just

(30:44):
by the way I am, and I've hadfriends that have come out and
said, You know, I was diagnosedwith ADHD. And when I know that
great, and then when I don'tknow it, then I'm wondering
what's going on. But if youdon't know it, and you don't see
it early on, that's normal, thatmaybe this hyper focus
courtship, whether it's thefriendship or the relationship
masks it, and then it starts toshow up as the you know, you're

(31:07):
out of the the reward part ofthe honeymoon phase of the
relationship. And then you'vegot a partner or a friendship,
that's a friend that starts togrieve a relationship that never
existed or believes that theywere going down, you know, or
getting into a relationship withthe person that was totally
different. And that can feellike a break of trust, right
there that somehow you showed updifferently. And I got bait and
switched, you know, into thisdifferent person. And I think

(31:30):
it's important to acknowledgethat for you to kind of talk
about that through for peopleand how they handle that because
that, you know, that can beheartbreaking for some people,
depending on the circumstances.

Melissa Orlov (31:40):
Well, at a minimum, I think it's often
heartbreaking. But at a minimum,it's confusing. Because here's
this person you've never metbefore, right? That hyper focus
starts as soon as the interestis triggered, and it lasts for a
couple years, typically. Andit's, by the way, not just
people who have ADHD, we all getthis, we all have the extra,

(32:03):
it's extra dopamine, amazingly,we all get this lot of extra
dopamine to connect us. And thenwhen people who are neurotypical
lose it, they go back to a sortof steady state and people who
have ADHD lose it and they goback to the low dopamine state.
And that brings out all thesesurprise surprises. Me, I
remember this time in my ownrelationship, because my husband

(32:24):
has ADHD, and I do not. And itwas intensely confusing, and
also really sad. Becausesuddenly he was completely
distracted. He wasn't paying anyattention to me, I would go to
him and I say, what's wrong? Youknow, don't you love me anymore?
What's going on? And he say,What are you talking about? Of
course, I love you. And I mean,it was really good. Because that
wasn't the way it seemed like hewas acting, he wasn't paying any

(32:45):
attention to me. So. So if I hadknown it was ADHD, which we did
not, then I could have said, Oh,he's just distracted, you know,
or Atlanta, let's go dosomething together. So we can
focus on each other, and itwould have been fine. And
that's, you know, that's that'sthe power of it. You know, but,
but we didn't. And so we raninto all of the problems. And I

(33:07):
think there there is an elementof grieving. So the hyper focus
courtship is intense, extremelyintense, like, much more intense
than any other relationshipyou've ever had. Because the
ADHD people really go all outwhen they get all that extra
dopamine. And they pay so muchattention to you. And you think,
Oh, my gosh, this is what I'vebeen looking for forever. And
then it's gone, like, poof, it'sgone. If it's like this, it's

(33:29):
like, there's a day like theswitch turns off, and then
that's gone. And so you thoughtyou were getting one
relationship, you ended up withsomething else. And they're
like, not at all the same. Andthere's a lot of grief and it's
very healthy to acknowledge thatgrief. And and, again, if you've
had this experience with thishyperfocus courtship, and then

(33:52):
the switch flips off, and yousee any of the other symptoms of
ADHD, you should go see, get anevaluation and see because
you'll save yourself years ofpain. If in fact, this is what
it is. Because the things thatyou get into as you say, Wait,
you're not, you know, you're notreliable enough. You're not

(34:12):
paying enough attention to mewhat's wrong with you, you
should just do this. All thosequestions, just poison the
relationship and and again, thebasis of trust.

Amee Quiriconi (34:23):
Yeah, and I think about, you know, this
conversation that this otherperson came to mind, that didn't
happen in the first one. But nowis we're talking about the, you
know, I would say probably thepart of the impulsivity but the
focusing on different thingsand, and staying there instead
of doing what they should bedoing. You know, and I think
about it from a workperspective. And there's one

(34:45):
memory popped up on where Icould I stood on the sidelines,
and I'm like, why are you doingthat task right now? Like, you
got very specific instructionsfrom the person who hired you to
do a B and C by 9am. You know,and there was this one incident
He ended up doing his own thinghis own way. And then sure
enough, the client was upsetbecause he did not. And I was

(35:07):
just like, how could you noteven see that this like I could
see like the, you know, thetrain wreck down the road
coming, you know, and and so nowI'm sitting here going, man, I
wonder, you know, even with thisother person, like how often
this was it, you know, yeah,this was a factor.

Melissa Orlov (35:22):
There could be other things distractibility is
not hyper focus, hyper focus issort of one of the things that
happens. It's it's notspecifically a symptom that's
diagnostic for ADHD. But it doeshappen to be a characteristic of
ADHD for sure. So yeah, one ofthe things about the now and not
now, time zones, is not verygood ability for some people to

(35:44):
anticipate the future toenvision what the future might
look like. And if they, if theystay focused in on this thing
that they're really intriguedby, right, right at that moment.
What the consequences might be.
If you have a kid with ADHD, theway to work with that kid is
through rewards andreinforcement, rather than
punishment and consequences,because among other things,

(36:08):
because of this now, not nowtime, timezone thing, they tend
to forget about theconsequences, and just move on
and live in the very presentmoment. And the same thing comes
up and they do the same thingagain, and their parents are
completely mystified, and soare, by the way, their partners
if it's the partner or you know,their work, their work buddies.

Amee Quiriconi (36:29):
And I think that is a bit it makes sense, though,
because you're talking about adopamine reward, like there's no
dopamine gathered frompunishment. Right? Yeah, you
know, you're right. But if youif you frame it like this, that
it is a dopamine seeking brain.
And so to be able to guide the,you know, guide choices,
behaviors, or at least andreward it, then I mean, it's
like, that seems like a nobrainer now is the approach.

Melissa Orlov (36:52):
But what do you think about how people often
think about, you know, we'llteach Joey a lesson? Yeah. So
you do something to Joey that'ssupposed to be a mean
consequences or whatever, andJoey's like, doing his own
thing. And he's like, Yeah,fine, I'll sit in the corner,
whatever. And totally,essentially, not at all learning
the lesson. You think the lessonthey're learning is like, Yeah,

(37:13):
no, I guess I, you know, I'll gohide that, again. It's
completely different way ofdealing with, with these kids, I
don't want to talk about kids.
But you think today I have ADHD,but I don't actually keep coming
back around. You're talkingabout work, and you're talking
about deadlines and stuff. And Iactually wanna say the research
on work with ADHD suggests thatactually, one of the areas that

(37:34):
is the hardest is the emotionaldysregulation part of ADHD. And
the research which suggests thatpeople with ADHD are much more
likely to be representedreprimanded or be asked to leave
based upon not getting alongwith other people or having
emotional dysregulation issues.
So I just want to put that inthere. Because it's not just

(37:55):
about deadlines, or other thingsthen and, and the recent, like,
last 1010 years of study andadult ADHD, there's been a lot
of study around the emotionaldysregulation, and it does hit
back at this trust topic aswell, which is you can't trust
that your partner is going to becalm or rational or reasonable

(38:15):
with you. And, and by the timethese relationships, the
marriage relationships breakdown, that's actually in both
directions, both partners areeasily triggered, both partners
are quite angry and frustrated,and, but they come from a
slightly different source.

Amee Quiriconi (38:32):
No, and that makes sense. I've you know, in
in the emotional regulation, tobe honest with you, I never
would have associated because,like I said, we're talking about
focus and, and tasks and thingslike that, and so that the idea
that the and I have seen it, youknow, with, with one friend in
particular that, you know, aswitch could flip very quickly
from being okay to uneasy fast,like, almost, and he, you know,

(38:53):
would even admitted that itdoesn't, like he knows that he
can actually switch, you know,really pretty quickly. And we
tend to when we talk aboutaggressive behaviors, we're
always again, as a culture andsociety app to punish a person
for that emotional dysregulationand not kind of look at it
holistically. You know,sometimes behaviors are, you

(39:15):
know, they shouldn't happen, youknow, abuse and violence and
things like that, that we areall human and prone to, you
know, either, you know, retreator fight back or whatever it is
if we feel stressed andtriggered. And so it sounds like
what you're saying is like withADHD, there may be a shorter
distance to get to that buttonthan what we would all assume

(39:38):
everybody else's distance to getto that button in a meeting or a
comment or criticism orsomething like that, right?

Melissa Orlov (39:44):
Yeah, absolutely.
So there are a number ofdifferent factors. One is
because the brain because of howthe brain functions, and there's
a faster move to overwhelm,which can send you that's that's
one of the most That isdysregulated. So and of course,
if you are feeling genuinelyoverwhelmed, you might shut
down, or you might lash out orsomething like that. So that's

(40:09):
that's one aspect or you know,sort of pull up. Another is
towards anger or frustration,again, strong emotions, poor
brakes, you might say thingsthat aren't very well considered
in a business situation, becauseof that quick trigger, and at
home, very quick escalation forthings that don't seem to

(40:31):
warrant it at all. And in alsoin the workplace, but where are
you just your people areliterally shocked at what you
escalate over. And lots oftimes, it's because they're
looking at the specificincident, a single incident,
when in fact, the escalation isabout an emotion. It's about
something like you think I'm afailure, or feelings of shame,

(40:54):
or being embarrassed that youdidn't follow through yet again,
and somebody is pointing it outto you. So you know, you lash
out in response. So usually,it's not if if the, if the fast
response is surprising. I alwayssay look below the fact that
you're talking about the trashand look below it and see what

(41:18):
the emotion is underneath itthat that is actually what the
trigger is. Yeah, and you know,that can that applies? I think,
everybody I mean, we all can getpushed, right? Yeah, it just
happens a lot faster. For thosewith ADHD, particularly along
the lines of criticism,criticism is a very tender spot
for adults with ADHD. Becauseand they tend to be, you know,

(41:45):
really triggered by it. In part,because as they're growing up,
they have lots of people whowere critiquing the way they
were doing things, or that theyweren't doing things, or they
weren't finishing them, or theyweren't good enough. And lots of
times, these come from parents,and coaches and teachers and
peers, people that they reallycare about. And so they've
become really hyper sensitizedto anything that even has a

(42:08):
sniff of critique to it.

Amee Quiriconi (42:13):
And I have seen that before. And it's sad, you
know, I've seen, because, youknow, the first of all, there's
this, you know, your own senseof belief system is, you know,
is whittled away when you hearcriticism from somebody, but
then the consequences either arein an erosion of your
relationships or an erosion atwork, you know, you're an
uncoachable and teachable, youknow, non teamwork oriented type

(42:36):
of a person, that you can't sayanything to them ever, because
they'll, you know, be too upsetabout it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And
it's, I think, it seems like atthe root of tensions and
conflict between the symptoms ofADHD and our and our around with
expectations, and right, so youhave symptoms that people learn
to respond to. And then there'sthese expectations of what the

(43:00):
responsibilities a person shouldbe doing, or their tasks or
whatever it may be. And so wecome in, and we say, I want you
or I believed you, were going todo these things. And then the
other person has these symptomsthat make it very difficult to
do, again, breaking down thattrust and then causing that
tension in the in thoserelationships. And so what are
some of the strategies that youactually help people with

(43:23):
individuals or couples withunderstanding that that
rebuilding that trust inunderstanding easing those
tensions that come up from this?

Melissa Orlov (43:31):
Well, I mean, so the very, very first thing is
making sure that there's acomplete understanding of what
ADHD is, and and to move peopleto be less judgmental about
what's going on. Once youunderstand it, it isn't like,
oh, that person is lazy. It'slike, oh, that person is really
struggling to accomplish thisthing. And I can understand the

(43:53):
logic between behind, maybe notwanting to jump up and try again
and get smacked down again. Sothat's the first thing is the
education. That I mean, I thinkthe second thing is getting the
ADHD partner or person to reallyunderstand that there is a huge

(44:13):
benefit to deciding to manage toengaging with managing ADHD,
this is not about changing whoyou are, or making you less
creative or anything else. Thisis about unleashing your
potential. The ADHD symptoms getin the way of you being able to
reach your potential if you takethat business meeting where you
blurt out something stupid,because you're not thinking

(44:35):
about it or you get angeredreally fast or whatever, that
hurts your potential at thatcompany. And if you have the
control to not do that, eventhink at all you want to but if
you have the control to usethose breaks, you're in a much
better position. So is and andreally literally life changing
things and the statistics aresuch that you The vast majority

(45:01):
of adults who have ADHD canlearn how to manage it very
effectively, they're never goingto be non ADHD. That's not the
way they're wired. But they canget it out of their way. And
it's life changing. So, sothat's the second thing to
communicate. And then the thirdarea is really just working on

(45:21):
the individual strategies thatthat particular person's version
of ADHD suggests that they needand I and I asked people to
assess their situation. Andagain, in my case, it's with
their partner, figure out what acouple of key target symptoms

(45:42):
are, where do they get the mostleverage in meet for immediate
change that's positive in theirlife and in their relationship
and focus on those first, andthen get an expert, if possible,
to help you figure out all ofthe strategies that are already
known don't have to reinvent thewheel, just get somebody to help
you figure out how to get yourlife aligned along target

(46:06):
symptoms. And as you go forward,then, eventually the reliability
improves, the understandingimproves, relationships improved
dramatically, because bothpartners are tuned in. You also
work with the other partner onwhatever the issues are, that
they've developed, there's painand hurt, there's frustration,
there's anger, there's probablyparenting where they're taking

(46:30):
on too many responsibilities,because they've been
compensating for the ADHDpartner for a while. They're all
things that they have to work onto but

Amee Quiriconi (46:38):
but things can get so much better. Mm hmm.
Yeah, well, I mean, in yourevidence of it, you were able to
do it in your own relationship,which inspired you to write the
book there. So I you know, yourproof that, you know, two people
that love each other can findways to make it work. And
especially when you have theknowledge of what you're working
with, right, you have the doorsopen, and you know, everything

(47:00):
that's out in front of you andavailable to you. So, you know,
reestablishing trust, you know,like you said is the
transparency, the owning it, andthen what's the other parts of
it so that a couple can get thatback in their relationship.

Melissa Orlov (47:17):
The third part of it for people impacted by ADHD
specifically, is understandingADHD, being empathetic towards
and understanding ADHD andreally delving in so if you, if
you understand ADHD, you're muchmore likely when your partner
says, I didn't follow through onthis thing I was gonna follow

(47:40):
through on I apologize for that.
I'm trying, I'm working with mycoach right now to set something
up. To improve on that, you'remuch less likely to say, that's
just an excuse, you always tellme that way. And then, and then
just things break back downagain. So so there's the
ownership to doing the best thebest you can, to your ability,

(48:02):
right, the best of your ability,and that's different from always
completing. Oh, and, and that'sa really important distinction
for when ADHD is present.
Because it doesn't mean justgoing along and doing ADHD
stuff, and it doesn't matter. Itmeans you take treatment
seriously, you work as hard asyou can to manage your ADHD, you

(48:26):
really you know, and that for methat has a very specific meaning
which we don't have time to gointo. And, and you get results.
Like you measure, like, okay,now I really am eight out of 10
times I'm, I'm following throughas promised, and I'm in contact
with you and owning it when Idon't follow through. And that's

(48:48):
good. That would that'strustworthy. In my mind. That's,
that's trustworthy, even thoughit's not consistent. So that's
the distinction between thegeneral public what it means to
be trustworthy and ADHD, what itmeans.

Amee Quiriconi (49:05):
And the results are possible. It Like you said,
their strategies are there forsomebody to go from having no
trust at all, and having thatinconsistency to applying
something. And I like what yousaid there that it's not about,
it's not that you don't earn thetrust by being 100%. Perfect.
But by showing marked successand improvement to the best of
the ability that you're able,and that's going to be different

(49:27):
for people depending on youknow, how severe it is and right
and what not so

Melissa Orlov (49:32):
and so. So one of these coping strategies, which
is really important tounderstand is lying and covering
up and this comes from shame andembarrassment. It's one of those
you know, there are emotionsunderneath things. And once you
get into a situation where thetrust equation has that actually
the trust is built back upagain. You don't need to lie

(49:53):
anymore, because it's okay tofail. As long as you're
acknowledging that That wasthere, it's okay not to follow
through and call it fail thatsounds worse than it is.
Sometimes it's Yeah, but it'sokay. As long as the

Unknown (50:10):
that the

Melissa Orlov (50:12):
action, the follow through the
acknowledgement, that the makingit better in some way that might
be an apology, it might be a newstrategy that you try out, it
might be a conversation withyour partner about how to
improve a sequence of events,whatever that is, but you're
doing the best to the best ofyour ability.

Amee Quiriconi (50:33):
And then with the last factor, I just wanted
to repeat this is that the otherpartners obligation to earning
trust, because it's two waysit's not just all on the ADHD
partner to do all the work thatthe other partner has to
understand and, and have that,that space and that compassion
because they understand whatADHD is, even if they're, you
know, even if we don't have itdoesn't mean we can't be

(50:56):
obligated to know it. And trustthat when our partner tells us
that they've done something ordidn't do whatever, that we were
not judging, you know, we'retaken out that allows that
person then like you just said,to know that they're safe.

Melissa Orlov (51:09):
Excuse me.

Amee Quiriconi (51:11):
Okay, that's okay, it's podcast, we don't
have any rules do to know thatyou're creating a safe container
for them to stop lying orfeeling like they have to be
shameful in hiding all of that.
And so yeah, it's a

Melissa Orlov (51:24):
and it's an understanding that, that your
person that you love isneurologically wired
differently. And so it's not illwill, that keeps them from doing
this stuff. It is, it is howthey're wired. And so having
compassion for that, I mean,we're none of us are perfect.
The non ADHD partner needs to beemotionally open and ready. And

(51:47):
it's really important to learnto believe, when the what the
non ADHD with the ADHD partnersays, because your ADHD partner
might say, I didn't think Icould do that, or that was
really hard for me. And thatmight not feel comfortable for
the non ADHD partner, because itwouldn't, it wouldn't be hard

(52:09):
for them, or it wouldn't. Yeah,whatever. And so they have to
just believe it, like not ratherthan, say, in an invalidating
way. Oh, of course, you can dothat. That's, that's how all
that shame got there in thefirst place. Because all those
coaches and parents ever going,Oh, yeah, of course, you can do
that, and not listening to whatthe kid was saying. Right? It

(52:31):
was in adulthood as well.

Amee Quiriconi (52:33):
Yeah. Right. And then it made me think, too, that
you know, the near opportunityis the non ADHD partner is that
reward, really, which is, again,what we had talked about, which
is this dopamine seeking brainreward system brain that when
your partner does do somethingto remember to, you know, to wow
them for that

Melissa Orlov (52:50):
positive. And the other side of it is there's a
huge reward for the non ADHDpartner, right? when this gets
straightened out what the nonADHD partner gets is a
trustworthy, basically reliablepartner, not 100% reliable, but
if I'm honest with myself, I'mnot 100% reliable either. So
I've asked like, you know, Ichanged my mind, that's my

(53:11):
version of not being reliable.
And my husband's going like, oh,when did that happen?
So and, and a much smootherrelationship, because this is so
foundational to the relationshipthat when this gets straightened
out, so much more is then ableyou start to you trust your
partner, not only in this venue,but also as him will be able to

(53:34):
talk things out will be youknow, etc. There's all sorts of
things that build on this.

Amee Quiriconi (53:39):
Yeah. Well, we didn't talk about it. But,
you know, I know for one of myfriends, the diagnosis came with
an opportunity to blendstrategies with medication, and
the medication had a huge impactin a positive way for him. And
there were so many out there,there isn't just a one size fits
all for it. Like it's a vast andI think you and I even touched
on it in the last conversation.

(54:01):
There's so many differentchoices and options, depending
on a person's you know,neurobiology, and you know,
what's happening in their lifeand how it's actually happening.
That he noticed, like almostinstantly, just the combination
of just taking the rightmedication made a huge
difference.

Melissa Orlov (54:18):
Yeah, some people that's what happens that they
There are over 25 differentmedications for ADHD and they
come in all sorts of flavorsdepending upon what you need,
and are looking for and about 20to 30% who want to take a
medication for ADHD don't findone that works for them. But
that means there are an awfullot 70 to 80% who do and it

(54:42):
makes a big difference. And itis i mean i i've seen over and
over and over and over againwhere suddenly their brain has
calmed down. They there isn'tthere is not so noisy in there,
they can actually start to thinkthrough things without feeling
panicked or anxious. There'salso sometimes anxiety or

(55:02):
depression that goes along withADHD, among other things,
possibly. But when things startto calm down, and you're, you
know, you're the people around,you also start to count Calm
down, if you're not just firingoff and 85 different directions.
And it doesn't change. I mean,it doesn't change whether you're
creative or whatever, if itdoes, you have the choice to not

(55:22):
take it. And people think ofmedication, like I have to
decide whether I'm going to takemedication. And no, that's not
true, you actually have to justdecide whether you're going to
try medication, which is totallydifferent. If you don't like it,
don't keep taking it, you know,but that usually the process is
you experiment with, they startyou at a very low dose, and then

(55:45):
you go to a dose that has animpact, but isn't too high, and,
or maybe a different medicationor whatever. So the most
effective combination is amedication, but also where the
dose is carefully calibrated tomake sure it's the right one,
and they can't figure that outahead of time. So Right,

Amee Quiriconi (56:03):
right, it's an experiment in process to come to
that and everything. Well, youprovide coaching and counseling
services and in I think you alsohad like a program for couples
to join and stuff like that. Socan you talk relay here a bit
about what you do and how soanybody listening wants to reach
out and follow up with you? Howwould they you know, I'll have
links but let's talk about whatyou do well, so

Melissa Orlov (56:25):
I have a big website with a lot of
information we want to getinformation. Calm Yeah, ADHD,
marriage calm is a ton ofinformation about ADHD in
couples, adult ADHD. And I dooffer I think, my I think,
personally, I think my bestprogram is, I have a eight week

(56:45):
seminar for couples, it's prettyintense, which is good, because
we're trying, I'm trying to movepeople pretty far along the path
and eight weeks. And so that Igive that live three times a
year. And then I also have aself study recorded version that
people can access in between ifthey want to. I also give
support groups for non ADHDpartners, and I'm probably going

(57:07):
to start some for ADHD partners.
I have some follow up coursesfor people who have ADHD that in
the realm of executive function,some stuff on emotions and
triggers different so a lot ofdifferent things, obviously, my
books, people can contact methrough the website, I, I'm not
that good at getting right awayto the email, but I answer it

(57:28):
all, but maybe not the same day.
Too much of it for that. Butanyway, so there, I'm always I'm
eager to help people understandthis and then be able to move
forward because it's it reallychanges the life of the whole
family.

Amee Quiriconi (57:48):
Oh, I agree. I agree. Absolutely. And I think
that, you know, with this beingsuch a misunderstood condition
for so many people that, youknow, I mean, in your book, I
read your book on the ADHDeffect on marriage. And I know,
for other people that have readthat book, it just it again, it
just opens up your eyes to seeand understand everything so
much differently andcompassionately you know, and I

(58:12):
think that that's what's youknow, missing because I have
seen the devastating effects of,of ADHD are really on the self
esteem of the person with thediagnosis of having to, you
know, walk through the world,you know, with a condition that
just, you know, despiteintention, still having that
difficulty of knowing how toachieve or get or, you know,

(58:32):
follow up, like we talked abouton the, you know, here on this
program, like follow up and makethose make a promise and know
that they can keep it and whenyou can't, and you've had just a
world constantly telling youthat it's because you know,
you're no good at this, orwhatever those words are, I
mean, it just, I mean, it'sweathers your self esteem. So
when we can spread thisawareness to more people, you
know, hopefully that helps turnthe corner for a lot of people

(58:53):
and improve, you know, a lot ofpeople's relationships.

Melissa Orlov (58:57):
It is heartbreaking when you hear
somebody who is incrediblysuccessful. I have an example in
the book that you read up adoctor who says, you know, what,
a four year old can be taught toput their socks in the laundry,
and I can't I mean, just thishuge, self critical part of a
lot of people who have ADHD, youthat are big escapism, for some

(59:17):
reason, it's really hard to notknow whether when you try really
hard you're actually going tosucceed or no, maybe you won't
succeed because the symptoms aregetting away or you'll get
distracted or whatever. And

Unknown (59:29):
that's just horrible.
So it is yeah, and well meaningpeople saying well, just try
harder. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Or trymy way, right. That's another
one.

Melissa Orlov (59:40):
Just do it this way. You should just do it this
way. It'll be okay. Just youknow, it's like, no, their brain
doesn't work that way.

Amee Quiriconi (59:46):
Yep. Yep. Well, Melissa, again, I appreciate
your time that you've taken totalk with me about this. And so
hopefully, again, yeah, the lastepisode that we did has been
hugely popular. So I think thatthis is something that a lot of
people really are trying tounderstand and grasp and are
looking for. As many resourcesthat they can get to be able to,
you know, understand the impactof ADHD on their lives. And And

(01:00:06):
so again, having this talk withyou is is going to be so helpful
for a lot of people, I'm sure ofit. So thank you. Well, thanks
for inviting me and I alwaysenjoy talking to you. Awesome.