Becoming Assertive with Lara Currie

Episode Transcript
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Amee Quiriconi (00:00):
Well, okay, so everybody welcome back to this
show. And it's possible that youmay be listening to this either
on the fearless Woman's Guide tobusiness or one broken Mom, I
this is one of my guests, Lauriecurry, who's been on the on one
broken mom, many times we'vetalked a lot about conversation
skills, how trauma comes up andcreeps up into the way we engage
with people. She's actuallyreferenced in my book, the

(00:22):
fearless Woman's Guide tostarting a business in the
chapter on communication.
Because she works in with a lotof people dealing with high
conflict, which is exactly themoment in time in which we
experience you know, all kindsof, you know, I wouldn't call
him communication, so pause. Butif we're going to struggle, it's
in moments of stress. And, andso her book that she has, and
their podcasts that she has isdifficult happens, which is

(00:44):
amazing. And so today, Laura andI, well, we've actually already
been talking for about 30minutes. But we're gonna start
the episode now. I have Laura ontoday to talk about specifically
why women in particular havesome difficulties with assertive
communication in the workspace.
And you know that, for me, it'salways been a point of surprise,

(01:09):
you know, I'm a fairly assertiveperson. But I have found and
through my conversations withLaura, with you, you know,
you've brought up some pointsfor me that have made me think
about my circumstances andconditions a little bit
differently to give me somebetter insights into why in
certain situations, I turn intolike the little scared girl who
feels insecure, and lessassertive, and then why at other

(01:31):
times, I have no problemstelling anybody what I think or
what they should do, or in ahealthy way, asserting, you
know, a position. So I thinkthat this is something that like
I said, talking about it fromthe lens of women is important
because not only is ourbackground, a factor, but also
the gender stereotypes that areplaying out in front of us, you

(01:54):
know, at work, uh, you know,also come into play, which, you
know, we have little to nocontrol sometimes over. Okay, so
we just cut out me clearing mythroat. Okay. So Laura, Laura,
welcome back to the show. It'salways so awesome to talk with
you. We have such greatconversations that that I always
appreciate. So thank you forbeing here with me today.

Lara Currie (02:14):
It's awesome. It's awesome. Your editor must hate
us get together.

I'm the editor.
Well, least you know when andwhat happens if I do the Convo?
I do? I do. Yeah. And actually,I think that that's one of the
reasons why I do like to edit myown podcast. I mean, I'm
validating right now. So totallyvalidating why I do this. But
when I edit my own shows, I lovegoing back and listening to them
again. And because when I'm inthe moment of doing the

(02:40):
interview, I'm sure you totallyknow this from doing your own
podcast. Sometimes we'rethinking about the conversation,
but we're also trying to thinkabout the arc, we're going
through the conversation and howwe're going to wrap it up. And
so you're you're kind of adisembodied person at times kind
of an observer, but not reallyhearing and listening as well as
you want to, which was whatmakes interviewing pretty
challenging. I don't think a lotof people realize that there's
an aspect to it. And so when Igo back, I get to be the the

(03:03):
listener, you know, the fan ofthe show, and then I hear and
pick up something and just goman, that is that was brilliant,
you know, Oh, I should haveasked that question. And I
missed an opportunity. And sothe editing process allows me to
kind of reset the size, youknow, everything over again.
And, and then also make surethat, you know, you know, what I
get at the end of the show issomething that I'm going to be

(03:25):
proud of, and that I know myguests like you we're going to
be really happy with and stuff.
So I probably will have somebodydo the editing because it is
long, but I'm not going to giveit up that easy because I really
do like it, you know, for thosereasons. So

yeah, and things that I would cut out. Oftentimes
my editor won't, like I justsneezed. I mean, I'm pretty sure
and cut that.

Well, you know, I am going to cut out the throat
clearing part because that was alittle weird. But I had to leave
my kid like so you know, anybodythat's been watching one broken
mom on YouTube, the studio isdifferent because there isn't a
studio right now I wanted to setup a system in a recording
process that actually was likein the living room and a little
bit more like the life we've allbeen living, you know, now for

(04:07):
over a year with everybody beinga little bit more in their
homes. And also I wanted to testsome new you know, materials and
new equipment and stuff likethat. And unfortunately,
however, I had to figure out acamera angle because you can see
the back door where my dog needsto be led out and so I've had to
deal with like the teenagerscoming down the hall and you
know, getting into the thecamera angle and stuff. And so

(04:30):
that's made it made it kind offun.

Any a podcast episode has been recorded from
my closet with me sitting on thefloor. So yeah, it is.

Yep. Yeah. So let's, let's talk about this.
Let's just jump in and talkabout, you know, you are a
woman. So, and dealing withcommunication and things like
that. And, you know, I know thatin the book I referenced one of
the things that I've actuallyused and I do credit you every
time I say it, which I think isa pretty phenomenal Dynamic,

(05:00):
which is understanding, first ofall, our relationship to whether
or not we're talking with peoplethat are in power over us,
people that we consider ourpeers, you know, co workers,
things like that friends, andthen people that we would regard
as pupils, people that arelooking up to us. And, you know,
I found that to be reallyinsightful, because like I said,

(05:21):
I could see when my switchturned, usually, peer to peer
was okay, pupil to peer was orpupil to me was pretty good. But
that power, you know, findingout that was like my weak link,
you know, my kryptonite in mylife. You see that when you're
dealing with, you know, when youget into communication and stuff
like that, is that a commonthing amongst the women that

(05:43):
you've worked with? Or in anyorganizations that you've worked
in?

Oh, absolutely. And it's so funny, because if you do
have me on both podcasts, I amboth. I have a trauma informed
business. And I think I'mwondering mom, so awesome, you
know, yeah, I find that itdepends on what their triggers
are. But anyone who holds powerover you, and you know, it, even
if it's imagined, even if it'spower that you've given to them
that they don't even know thatthey hold will leave you in a

(06:08):
more vulnerable spot, what andwhat's more vulnerable than the
time that we had a trauma in ourpast, that's right, where our
body or our mind goes. And sooftentimes, we'll try to mind
read and try to fix things ortry to guess what's going to
happen. And that puts us in amore vulnerable spot, and we
know our own weaknesses, and wecan become our own worst enemy.

(06:29):
I always say the first thingthat you have to know is Know
thyself, because personaldevelopment is the muscle that
does all the heavy lifting forprofessional development for
life skills for anything. So ifyou know what it is that
triggers you, and you're honestabout it, you know, where it
shows up, you can take thatbeat, take that step to just
say, okay, hang on a second, I'mfeeling rage towards this

(06:49):
person, what's up with that, orall of a sudden, I feel really
stupid, fat and short, what'sgoing on? You know, whatever it
is that you get triggered intowhatever feeling or emotion,
just, first of all, questionthat at least identify it,
that's the very first step.

You know, sometimes they found in the
dynamics of meetings to whereself awareness comes in is that,
you know, knowing that we'vebeen triggered is powerful. And
sometimes the most assertivething that we can start with, is
if we need space, or we needtime is to just ask for that.
I've seen, you know, in the inmy career, you know, I've gone

(07:26):
from blue collar to pink collar,you know, I mean, big shifts,
I've worked in very maledominated industries,
construction, my ownmanufacturing, company
engineering, and then I haveswung over to weddings, mostly
women, clients are mostly women.
I know, it's changed. But forthe most part, you know, a lot
of my peers and that we're,we're still we're still women,
business owners, and then goinginto nursing, which, you know,

(07:49):
again, is still predominantlythe demographics are high on
with women in that field. And,you know, when women feel
trapped in meetings and unableto speak up and feel like
they're put on the spot, they,they just don't say anything.
And I've been that person towhere you feel like you can't
actually express a need to calla timeout in a meeting that's

(08:11):
going badly, or to let somebodywho may be criticizing you know,
that, hey, listen, I'm, I'mstarting to feel triggered right
now. Or I'm starting to feellike I'm getting out of my, you
know, good sense of thinkingthrough the problem here. Can I
have a bit of a moment? do youadvise groups or you know,
people to do that? Or do youhave a different first step?

(08:31):
Sorry, there's like a bug flyingaround my face?

Yeah, the very first thing I say is to practice
and safety. So there are a lotof skills that I teach my
clientele, especially women whoare in these high stress fields,
you know, like nursing, they'reon the frontlines where their
clientele comes to them alreadyin a heightened emotional state.
So just on a day to day basis,they're living their life,
everybody that they come incontact with, is having a day of

(08:57):
some sort. They're in aheightened emotional state that
you don't know what it is, youknow, are they triggered to
anger? Are they triggered to bepleasers? Are they triggered to
avoid? Are they triggered tofall into the victim mode, you
don't know how they're going toreact. And so in order to keep
your own equilibrium, one of myfavorite things that that that I
use, and that I I encourage mywomen to use, is I'm going to

(09:19):
stop you right there. Justpracticing that. I'm going to
stop you right there. I need youto clarify what you mean by
that, or I'm going to stop youright there. I need to think
about that last point, or I'mgonna stop you right there.
That's not what we're talkingabout. Let's get back on track,
whatever it is, it just stopsit. If especially if you use
your body along with that. Idon't mean to be aggressive. I

(09:40):
mean, to be clear. So if you'restanding facing them, just
putting your hand up, I'm goingto stop you right there. They
will automatically respond andthey will stop whether
consciously they know they'redoing it or not. And oftentimes,
people are verbal processors andthey may have no clue what
they're doing. And so they canstop and reset and they can just
start the whole thing.
Conversation again. So what do Imean by practice and safety?

(10:01):
What I mean is, you know, like,you're at the grocery store, and
you're getting out your change,does anybody pay by cash
anymore? I don't think so. Butanyway, you're something in your
purse, and someone'sinterrupting you, I'm gonna stop
you right there, I was lookingfor something where it just
practice it. And the more youpractice it, the easier it
becomes use it and safety, andthen it'll come in those tough

(10:21):
moments. Because trying totrying to pull up these skills,
when you're under stress can bereally difficult. That's what I
just love to practice.

Yeah, and you and I have talked about that
quite a bit. And, you know, andI, as you were talking about
this, like, you know, I'm gonnastop you right there, you know,
the hand, give somebody the handright there, that actually can
be especially in a heightenedsituation can be viewed, you
know, will be called aggressive,even if it is assertive, right?
You and I both know, thedifference between those two
words, aggressive as usedagainst women in a derogatory

(10:54):
term, when women are actuallyjust being assertive, you know,
of holding a boundary. And so ina, you know, in a room where,
you know, you're raising thehand and saying, I'm gonna stop
you right there. I mean, thishas happened to me, you know,
where it's like, Listen, I needa timeout, and then been
attacked for being assertive andasking for the timeout. And
you're just like, you know, someof us can kind of like, go well,
FSU, and then some people can't.
So the practicing part, let's goback to that. I mean, I love it,

(11:19):
you've, you've talked about thattoo, before, like going to a
grocery store. You know, anddoing that. I could see, you
know, are there some exercises,though, that people could do
with friends, because it feelslike friends are a good place.
And you're, I don't want anybodylistening here. We have to
actually practice it enough. Sothat the brain gets a more

(11:39):
comfortable with it. It's likegoing out and running, you don't
just go on to the track. And youknow, Dart out your 400 yard
dash, you know, all at once,without practicing and getting
the muscles used to it. And ourbrains and our behaviors and our
emotions work very similar tothat. You know, do you do you
have some other suggestions onthe other practicing techniques?

(12:02):
Because I think people fear thatthey go, good, good talk. I love
that idea. And it's still in theheat of the moment when the
amygdala and the hippocampus andeverybody else's like fire
alarms are going off. Theirtheir muscle memory isn't
clicking into gear.

Yeah, I would say it totally depends on their
personality, and what istriggering them. Because there
are four main types of triggeredreactions. And that is the
football the first onesemotions, a feeling, you don't
like that feeling, feelingstupid. Feeling, powerless
feeling whatever the feeling issad. A lot of people don't like
sadness at all. And they goright to anger instead of

(12:38):
sadness, because that's not,it's the emotion itself that's
triggering a reaction in them.
Then the next one is their,their physical environment. I
know that if I step into anoffice where the halogen lights
are going, and there arecubicles, I can't breathe, I
can't focus, I can't function,that environment is extremely
triggering for me. The Next arethe words, you know, pumpkin,
honey, aggressive, you know,yeah, whatever it is, I mean, to

(13:02):
this day, I there are certainwords that I hear it, I'm like,
it's not what they meant. Don'tworry about it, work through it.
And then the mack daddy at themall is the content, what we're
talking about. And that'susually where women in male
dominated fields and women inhigh stress fields get
triggered, because it's thecontent itself, whether it's

(13:23):
money, whether it's the route,that we're going to take on a
certain job, whatever it is,because time and time again,
they've been thwarted, orthey've been minimized, or the
slog has been so hard thatthey're like, Is it even worth
it? You know? So it's thecontent of what you're talking
about. So knowing what triggersyou, and then practicing talking
about it. And there are itdepends on what fits your

(13:46):
personality. But you can use alittle bit of humor with your
friends. You know, if you'retalking about finances, you
could make a joke and say, Oh,here we go. Money talk mind goes
blank. Oh, okay, you guys, giveme a minute. I'm gonna think
about this, okay? Because I'mtrying to work through this math
anxiety that I have. So youknow, just practice in what way
works best for you. But also,you kind of know what triggers

(14:08):
you. And take, take, I would saythis, this might go off on a
little bit of a tangent, buttake a poll. If you are afraid
to practice and safety with yourfriends. Maybe you're not
hanging out with the bestfriends. What I mean by that is
often people who have beenraised in trauma and
dysfunction, we click withpeople because they're so
familiar. The way that theirpassive aggressive, ooh, just

(14:31):
like my daddy, you know, the waythat they mock me openly. Oh,
just like my sister, you know,whatever it is. It's a familiar
sweater, and it's not what'sbest for us. So also, when
you're choosing a place topractice, make sure it truly is
safe.

Mm hmm. Yeah, I know. That's a great point there
too. For sure, like on you know,talk about a lot you know, your
herd helps your hurts you. Andyou know, there are places that
are safe for doing that. Youknow, your content. The fourth
part there content, I think isreally interesting, because I
know reflecting back on me,that's the one I think where I
was most surprised. You know, ifpeople used demeaning words or

(15:09):
microaggressions, you know, ittriggered me in the sense of
like, you know, I got a littlepissed about it, because I'm a,
my trauma responses fight, youknow, that's one thing that we
become self aware of is thatwhen we're traumatized, and then
triggered, will, our responseswill either come into like the
flight, you know, flightcategory where we become people
pleasing, or we want to escapeor whatever, or there'll become

(15:31):
fight where we might become,well, we'll want conflict, we'll
want to fight back and protectourselves, or we'll freeze,
which is, you know, justdepending on that, you know, we
talked about that before, whereyou just you kind of are in a
holding pattern to decide whenit becomes safe, and which
action you're going to be ableto take. And so when I hear
things that trigger me, youknow, usually my motion is kind
of like whatever anger,whatever, but content, getting

(15:55):
to that point, money, which ishuge, for me, personally, was a
topic that rendered mespeechless, voiceless, no
assertiveness at all. And it wasthe common theme throughout my
life at which I did not speakand defend assertively what I

(16:16):
should be getting paid frombusiness partners, from
employers, you know, servicesand charging. I mean, it was a,
you know, this huge moneydisorder that really just
shrouded everything in my life,and it affected it in so many
different ways. And I wassurprised by that fact, when I
became self reflective of if webrought up a raise caliber, that
was the moment in time I becamethis shrunken. And I mean, I

(16:38):
still feel this is how weird itis, this is what trauma does to
you, I still feel it in mychest. As soon as I start
talking about money, even thoughI have all the awareness and
building on all that, bringingthat content up. And we know
there's a pay gap out there. Andwe know that, you know, when
looking at research that it'ssometimes women feel a lower
sense of entitlement, which thenkind of feeds into our abilities

(17:01):
and desires to actually speak upon behalf of ourselves when it
comes to money, whether it'swith, you know, with anybody out
there, do you have conversationslike that in organizations about
the content of money and payraises and promotions and
benefits with employees with thewith the leadership and
companies around that?

Even more basic, I was doing a workshop for a
fiduciary company, and it's achain of financial advisors. And
they brought me in all aroundthe topic of how to talk to
women about money. Because theywere finding that most of these
male fiduciaries were theirclientele were female. And they

(17:42):
would seem like they understoodor they would seem like they
were on board. And then theywould just question later. And
to come back to that the waythat we react, it's the fight
flight freeze, or appease,they've added this appease,
because they've noticed thatthat is also where they want to
call it Stockholm Syndrome,whether you want to just call it
you know, surviving, that thatis a very common reaction. And

(18:05):
oftentimes women will just belike, ah, I'll go I'll figure it
out on my own. You know, yeah, Isee what you're saying. That's
good enough. I'm going to skimit. Yes. Because to not know is
a danger. So I went in, I talkedto them all about the way that
people here and ingestinformation, triggering words,
clarifying words over explainingand just even the cadence

(18:26):
because some of these people hada really hard time even just
talking to me. I'm pretty good.
conversational. do say somyself. It's like, yeah, you're
talking in monotone. So I'veactually stopped listening to
you. I have no idea what you'resaying. I'm looking at the
poster behind you, or whatever.
But yeah, that money is a hugeone, an absolute huge one. And

(18:48):
me too. I mean, that's a hugeone for me. I have math anxiety,
and I joked about this on. I dida podcast A while ago, on Oh,
Laura has a vulnerabilityhangover. It's the whole it's
just me going on rant about myvulnerability, Hank. And I
talked about getting kicked outof school in Miss Madison's math
class, because I was getting soangry at her because I didn't

(19:09):
understand and what's theeasiest emotion rage, and it was
pretty witty little five foot,you know, 15 year old. So that
did not help my situation atall.

So visits to the principal's office for bad
behavior. That was three strikesman, they just sent me back and
oh, man, that's funny. Um, well,that's interesting to you know,
again, when I when I think aboutwomen, and I think about the
people that might be listeningto this, in particular, you
know, addressing not only likebeing able to ask for more

(19:43):
money, do you have any exercisesor any recommendations that you
have when you work throughpeople because, you know, part
of it is obviously we need tounderstand our relationship with
money. And sometimessurprisingly, our fears about
money don't have anything to dowith money they have to do with
just overall sense ofentitlement and self You know,
whether you were just, you know,anytime you ask for something

(20:05):
that was meaningful to you,where you called selfish, did
somebody you know, turn you downconsistently. And in order to
create peace in yourenvironment, you just stopped
asking, because you wanted to behelpful air quotes, you want it
to be nice, you know, whateverthe you know, it is, I know with
mine, it was also having theseMiss mixed messages about, you

(20:26):
know, go get a good job thatpays you well, but at the same
time, bad mouthing people whohad money, which can create some
really weird conflict anddissonance is in our heads and
our relationships. So we feelinsecure around money, because
we've been told, you know, youknow, the directly or
subconsciously that people withmoney, have all these really
undesirable characteristics. Sowhen you're in them, are you in
the danger zone, do you want tobe like them and all that

(20:48):
garbage. But being able to getwomen to really become assertive
about what they should bereceiving in pay, to me is huge
to closing the gender gap, aswell as getting women out of
poverty and getting them set upto be able to be successful
entrepreneurs or professionalsand to to have meaningful

(21:08):
careers that help them live, youknow, and thrive. So when you
work with people around thetopic about this, what are some
suggestions you have for how topractice that muscle? When it
comes to the content of moneyand value and worth? Yeah, this

is why I love having a group of women, I have
an ongoing membership program.
And the reason that I love thatis because it depends on what
comes up at the month. So Iactually had a client just
recently, who consistently letmoney go, what I mean by that is
she would bill certain people ora bill would get lost, or one of
her staff members would make amistake with the billing,
especially when it came aroundMedicare, or any of the large

(21:44):
companies, she just didn't wantto deal with it. So it's like,
it's just not worth my time.
It's not worth my time. But thislast time, I think it was like
it was close to $20,000. And I'mlike so you know, how long would
it take you to make? And I hadto walk her through how long it
would take her to make that?
What would it cost her to goafter? What would it look like,
you know, and kind of walkthrough it. So totally depends
on what the triggering what thetrigger issue is. And for her

(22:08):
was the confrontation. And itwas also navigating the myriad
of BS systems that some of theseinsurance companies and
government agencies set up. Andthen on top of that, she didn't
understand the where the accesswas also, there was a It's a
long story just in general, buthaving to walk through so it
wasn't just one triggeringevent. It was much easier for

(22:29):
her and it really was worth itto her to just say, Nope, I'm
not going to deal with that. Butwhat was happening is the
universe said, Okay, we're goingto give you a $2,000, you know,
trigger, does that work? Nope,not worth their time. Alright,
about 5000 that worth theirtime, you know, and it kept
escalating and escalating,because when the issue isn't
resolved, you know, and then, aswe walked through, this was

(22:51):
really like a four month periodthat we walked through each
triggered reaction, eachconflict with the individuals
that she had to basically fightfor her money for. And a lot of
the conflict was old storiesthat she was telling herself,
right. So she would, you know,someone will respond to her. And
she would be like, he yelled atme, it's like, actually, no, I
just tried, you know, excusenumber three didn't work, you

(23:13):
know, throw it out there.
Spaghetti didn't hit the wall,you know, whatever. But walking
through each one of those, andthen after that talk about a
vulnerability hangover, shamehangover. Because she's like,
why didn't I do that before? Whydidn't you know, it's like that,
again, useless. But it's thiscycle that we go through. So
even with asking for a raise,the very first thing is, say the

(23:35):
word out loud $20,000. And sayit until you can say it, you
know, don't say 20 $20,000. Youknow, practice it. If it doesn't
feel right. You know, just keeppracticing around that. And if
it doesn't feel right, but youknow, it is right, then what's
going on there? dig a littledeeper. Yeah, also, I have to

(23:57):
say, we can't spend our entirelives work on ourselves. I mean,
I just did this whole series ondysfunctional affirmations.
Because I am so sick of toxicpositivity. Like, I need a bunch
of dysfunctional affirmationsbecause I kind of want to rage
positivity.

Well, you know, I think that what's important,
you know, out of this is for thefact that, you know, this kind
of change doesn't just happen,you know, our communication
styles are pretty well groovedinto our systems. And by the
time we get to a place where werealize that the dysfunction is
hurting us, you know, I thinkthat there's also this

(24:37):
expectation that we canunfortunately set for ourselves
well, now that I know I shouldbe able to fix it. And then like
your, you know, your colleaguethere or your member did was I
have this awareness and ourimmediate reaction, which is
completely normal is to feelembarrassed and ashamed that we
reacted that way for 40 years ofour life. And that's, you know,

(24:58):
it's normal to feel that way.
But We have to snap out of thatas well and realize that, you
know, these patterns are reallydeeply grooved. You know,
they're grooved in how we haveresponded and it's, you know,
our default system. And it's notgoing to happen overnight. And
you know, what you're talkingabout with having groups, where,
you know, maybe your friendsaren't the right people to
practice this, unless theyhappen to be like minded,

(25:19):
entrepreneurial, hey, let's allattack the world. And let's get
better, you know, type of peoplethat you can do this with. But
signing up for programs likewhat you have or you know, with
any group that's going to focuson on improving communication
skills, is truly kind of theheart at which how we end up
changing the the wiring and the,in the practice, I go back to
that the muscle memory, youknow, whether it's emails, I

(25:41):
know, for me, some of the firstplaces I started to assert, you
know, my assertivecommunication, when it came
around money in value, wasspending an hour obsessing over
the right email to send somebodyto say no, to, no, I won't do
that for free here is what I'mbeing charged, you know, or what
I'm charging for the service.

(26:02):
And it you know, even that took,you know, a terrible amount of
anxiety and still feel anxiety,I guess I want to say that too,
like, you know, even when youpractice all this, it doesn't
mean that the anxiety suddenlyjust disappears, and you know,
all as well, like, it's, you'realways trying to overcome the
the resistance from doingsomething for so long. That
until it gets to be, you know,more comfortable, you know, to

(26:25):
be able to make that change. Youknow, for you, you are an
assertive communicator, youknow, how was your journey to
getting to this place of, youknow, becoming this
communication expert.

How long? Well, the funny thing is that, you know, I
have always used humor, andhumor has gotten me, it's gotten
me far, but I'm also five foottwo grew up, you know, in
downtown Seattle, and had arough go of it, you know, and
so, using humor, and appease,and I, you know, my conflict
personality type is that of abit of a pleaser. And now when I

(26:58):
say conflict type, I don't mean,in my regular day to day life,
in my regular day to day life, Itend more towards the
perfectionist, but when I'mtriggered, I become a pleaser,
because that's what has kept mesafe. And so trying to fight
against that, you know, andinternally just saying, Is this
something I really want to knowthis will solve the situation?
But who wants the problem? Notme. Why am I you know, on the

(27:22):
wrong side of the fence? Why amI you know, trying to solve
something that doesn't belong tome, or, you know, whatever it
is, at the time, it's been along journey. And I think what's
really helped with that is justthe fact that I have worked for
so long around people in trauma,you know, as a, as a journalist,
as a private investigator, as acourt advocate, everybody I
dealt with day in and day outwas in such a triggered space

(27:45):
that it became, you could seethe themes so much more. And I
started to recognize the themeswithin me. And also, knowing
that every single person on theplanet has the same issues we're
all trying to do, you know, thebest we can, and getting
yourself a break. I mean, Ithink that's the biggest thing
is, where you're at, is exactlywhere you're supposed to be at.

(28:05):
You know, you may wish that, youknow, jeez, I wish it wouldn't
have taken me 26 years to getout of that marriage, or I wish
it wouldn't have taken me 20years to deal with my math,
anxiety, or whatever it is,you're exactly where you're
supposed to be. Each step is astep in the right direction.
It's one of the reasons that Ilove, like journaling, or
reflecting. And again, I'm gonnaput out there that I also fight

(28:28):
with the way that positivity hasbeen co opted, because we're not
supposed to be positive all thetime. negativity has a purpose.
Anger has a purpose, sadness hasa purpose, shame has a purpose,
we must walk through andidentify those emotions, if we
stuffed them all down, we becomea psychopath. I'm just kidding.
But we've been, you know, reallyunhealthy? It's not right. You

(28:50):
know, it, we need to be able totalk about what we're feeling.

And I think that that can actually, when we're
talking about communication,especially in the dynamics of
work settings, you know, thatthat actually, that lack of, you
know, allowing that spectrum attimes to just be is what ends up
creating a lot of conflict,especially, you know, in the
dynamics of people, right, like,so you have leaders or people

(29:17):
that are kind of in charge atthe moment that don't want it,
they either want it to be oneemotion, right? They're in
charge, everybody listens,everybody behaves emotion,
compliance. And then when otheremotions start to come and go,
which they're apt to do,especially as the tension rises
in the room, we then startjudging ourselves and judging
each other for those emotions.
And then that just amplifies andyou know, that's gas on fire,

(29:38):
then, you know, now we have aninferno in there. But when we
come in with this awareness thatall the fields are going to
happen, especially if we have tohave a hard conversation, right
as a team, and to allow thatspace for it to process and if
and if necessary to take thetimeouts and let everybody
resolve so that we canreregulate Because your write

(29:59):
tension and stress is normal. Infact, we can't do much without
enough tension in life, youknow, that's the Yerkes Dodson
model, like, not enough tension,we're useless, too much tension,
we're super useless in themiddle, where it's just right,
the Goldilocks zone of tensionis where we actually, you know,
have some grit and we arecreative, and we get, you know,
we get work done. And so the,you know, the two extremes are

(30:22):
extremely positive all the timeis not enough tension to be able
to, you know, problem solve andnavigate, and the brain gets
bored. You know, I think ofthat, as well. So do you what do
you, you know, come into anorganization and let everybody
know, like, hey, it's fair, forpeople to be amped and to need
space and to stop theconversation or to be aware of

(30:44):
identifying when somebody is ina triggered state that's going
to interfere with the flow ofthe conversation and the outcome
that everybody wants?

Absolutely. When I work with women, business owners
in particular, especiallyentrepreneurs and small business
owners, there's going to beconflicts with practice, you
know, what are you going to doas the leader to address that
conflict, and part of that isbeing pre emptive. So the first
thing I do is we walk throughthe different conflict
personality types, how peoplerespond, because each conflict
type has a kryptonite. For me,being a pleaser when I'm

(31:19):
triggered a victim is mykryptonite, you know, for
someone who wants to please andtake care of, well, what's
better a victim saying, I can'tdo anything, you know, it's
just, it's a dance that you getinto, you know, you can become
triangulated. And it justbecomes a real toxic environment
for everybody. The other thingI, we've kind of worked through
is what is your appreciationlanguage? How do I show that I

(31:42):
appreciate you? Because for mewords, words, words, nothing.
You know, I, my mom isn't a signlanguage interpreter and founder
of a ASL school here in Seattle,but I just see her say Taka,
Taka No, good. It's a great showme, show me what you're gonna
do. You appreciate me, where'smy bonus? Where's my week off?

(32:03):
Where's my group vacation? Thensomeone else is like, What a
waste of money. Don't do that.
What I want is a brand newcomputer, whatever it is, you
know? How do your people feelappreciated? Is it words, is it
actions, if you think someonewants to be recognized in front
of the whole group, and you'relike, hey, Sally, you did great,
that was fabulous. And you makeher a spectacle. And she's like,

(32:24):
Oh, my God, public, you know,this is the worst nightmare, Oh,
my gosh, everyone's staring atme, you know, you need to know
who your people are. And thenyou need to be able to talk
about certain things you need tobe able to name whatever it is
that you're feeling. Or ifsomeone you know, you could say,
you know, I really feel likeyou're upset about something, or
I really feel like you'refeeling angry that I didn't

(32:45):
appreciate you enough, or youseem really upset that you
didn't get it, whatever it is,identify and name it and talk
about it. Whether you do this ona weekly, quarterly, annual, you
know, your group, you know, yourteam, but it is something that's
ever evolving and ever moving. Ilove that my dad always used the
Newton's cradle, with the littleballs, where you just it's like,

(33:08):
yes, we're always in motion. Andwe hit that sweet spot every
once in a while. But it's gonnakeep on going, you know, we're
going to be on this end. Andthat end, it's going to be
seasons, not only physical andemotional seasons, but actual
seasons, financial seasons,everything is in motion. So
keeping, you know, keeping tabson your team, knowing your team

(33:28):
and growing your team.

Cool. Now, the kind of the last thing I want to
talk about before we start towrap up the conversations, I
think about, you know, the womenthat do feel comfortable with
assertive communication, and canstand up for themselves and
maybe for other people when itcomes to meetings, but when
you're in an environment thatstifles that, or challenges that
and it isn't they, you know,you're dealing with a person who

(33:55):
doesn't have that kind ofhealthy awareness of dialogue
and humans. What's your advicefor people in that because there
is a penalty that's beenmeasured in research for women
who are assertive, and becauseof what you know, happens in
terms of stereotypes about howwomen should behave air quotes
around the should, you know, andhow they should communicate with

(34:16):
one another, which is to becollaborative and, you know,
team player and, you know, andnot say hard things and you
know, stuff like that, wherewhat's your advice for the for
the women that are in thoseseats in companies or in our
organizations for how tonavigate the world, you know, or
maybe a person that may be intheir organization that and kind

(34:39):
of, you know, undermine themevery time they are? Because
women, you know, again, researchshows this women are apt to
actually keep their mouth shut,because they don't want to deal
with the backlash that'sassociated with it. But that
doesn't help us either. Youknow, so we have to say
something, but how do we do itin a productive and safe way for
us professionally?

Yeah, one My favorite phrases, and I use it
all the time, especially when Ithink that someone is saying
something that they don't reallymean, or they don't. You know,
it's like, I don't think thatmeans what you think it means,
or I can tell the

bride when you say that,

exactly. I do not think that word means what you
think it means. Sorry, I love tosay, you know, especially if
you're in the one down position,or that you know that that peer
or pupil position and someone inpower is look at them and say,
Oh, that's really interesting.
Can you tell me more about that?
Or? I think I understand whatyou mean. Can you explain a

(35:33):
little more? Or just to clarify,getting curious? Because
oftentimes, they might thinkthrough it and say, Well, no,
that's not actually what I mean.
What I mean is, you know, let'ssay you're you just say, I want
to stop you right there. I needto think about it. Whoa, whoa,
what are you getting all angryfor? It's okay, I seem angry.
Can you tell me more about that?
What exactly, you know, thatseemed angry about that, you

(35:54):
know, just, and that, again,takes practice, because I was
thinking my sister back in highschool, and she was in the girls
bathroom, she got bullied allthe time. And this girl came in,
and she was like, picking afight with her whatever, called
her a bunch of names. And mysister said, Yeah, same yours.
And they just kind of looked ather like same horse, what she

(36:15):
meant to say was Same to you.
But it just didn't roll off yourtongue. And it worked, though,
they just kind of like looked ather and backed up. And they both
went about their day. But youneed to practice this.
Otherwise, it kind of comes outweird. And you know what, it's
fine if it comes out weird,because people can feel
vulnerability and tension. Andthey kind of want to help. It's
it's human nature, especially ina group setting. So other women

(36:38):
might stand up and say, Oh, Iknow, right, Amy, I thought I
thought that he meant this andthis, is that what you meant, or
you know, and encourage peoplealong with that, when you see a
woman floundering, when you seesomeone who you feel like might
need help, you know, together,we rise, let's stand together
and lift each other up, and helpthem out, maybe use some of

(36:58):
these phrases.

Yeah, in the I refer to that person as a
shepherd. You know, when you'vegot all the different styles of
communication that people bringin, you know, you've got sheep
that tend to be the peoplepleasing types of there in the
organization, you've got thewolves, which are the
aggressive, you know, in yourface, put it you know, cutting
in cutting everybody down. Theother one is the black sheep or
the, which is basically thepassive aggressive person, but

(37:24):
the shepherd is the person who'sreally there with the shepherd's
hook in the in the guardrailsaround the round the purpose of
the meeting, and it's not justto, to create their own space
for themselves and their ownneeds, but also to be mindful of
the of the group, you know, andI take that as a responsibility.
You know, what can we do as ashepherd in conversations to

(37:47):
ensure safety for people thatactually do need it? That is,
you know, and to speak up andassert ourselves. And sometimes
it's actually easier, I will saythis for anybody that feels
like, they have difficultyspeaking up for themselves, but
they do a great job for otherpeople. That's not unusual,
especially with women, that weactually learned to take care of
other people before we take careof ourselves. And sometimes the

(38:09):
first steps in becoming moreassertive is to lean into that a
little bit, practice thatmuscle, you know, have that
protection and safety for otherpeople. And and then see how
that feels, you know, how did itfeel standing up for somebody
else? Now imagine the littlegirl inside of you that needs
that Shepherd speaking up forher, like, How awesome would

(38:30):
that feel for her if youactually use those skills to
protect that person inside andto say something on your behalf?
You know, instead of, you know,your co workers, your teammates
behalf?

Yeah, and you never know what's going to be that
that thing. Things happen reallyslowly, all of a sudden, change,
you know, it feels like ittakes. And then all of a sudden,
you're there. I was working in afamily business. That was a very
toxic environment. It was therewas a lot of mental health
issues. And it was just verytoxic. But there was one leader

(39:02):
in particular who was extremelypassive aggressive. And he would
do things like you silence, youuse silence, like a knife. And I
just remember being in thisenvironment, one of the first
time that one of the other galshad said something, and was
being completely ignored. Andeverybody in the room had their
head down was pretending likethey couldn't hear her. And I
just looked her and I said,Yeah, it's weird. They're acting

(39:23):
like they can't hear you. But weall know, they can hear you and
I just named it. That was it.
And it just changed the dynamicin the room just like that. And
we just talked as if no one elsewas there. And I said, I wonder
why they don't want toacknowledge this. It's really
weird. Do you think that they'rethinking and they just need that
time to think and we just wentback and forth and back and
forth, until it lightened themood enough to where it ended

(39:44):
up? The person responded. Andthe response was so ridiculous,
that then he was able toverbally process and be like,
Well, not really what I meantwas, well, actually this or
actually that, and we finallygot to a consensus, but if we
hadn't, it would just be thatelephant in the room that, you
know, oh, needed a bath.

Yeah, no. And that's funny. And you know, and
that's I like that example. Imean, because that is a great
place where you can actuallyagain, it, people probably
shifted a bit because theystarted to feel validated
somebody speaking out loud forthem, and letting them know that
like, yeah, we're not all alonehere. Right? Like, you know,
we're all in the room. And wethink that some of these

(40:27):
thoughts are our own, butreally, we're all experiencing
the same awkwardness or tensionor, you know, we all believe the
same thing. But again, we goback to, you know, our
behaviors, that communicationare pretty well grooved into us,
you know, during some veryimportant years of our life and
with our relationships with thefamily members that we had and
the people around us and it ishard to change those gears and

(40:49):
shift those gears. And so it's,it's you know, sometimes you
just have to you know, oneperson can start and get
everybody and I think thatthat's fabulous. And if you're
an assertive person that's agood way of using your
superpowers and so I like to saylike if you have the superpowers
use them for for other peoplefall under the queen bee myth.
This is another thing that youknow a lot of male leaders will

(41:09):
use against women. Well, she'sjust a queen bee. It's

like no, she just a bully just like another bully.
You know, she's just a toxicperson or she's just an ass, you
know, whatever. They try to usethis Queen v myth against so
that we fight amongst ourselves.
It is. It's been there have beenstudies done for the last 15
years since that book came out.
And it female leaders are nomore hard on women in lower

(41:35):
ranks than male leaders. Right?
crazily a bully. Call it a jerk.

Yep. No, there's I did an episode once with Brett
bro guard who's a University ofMiami Professor on on one broken
mom about why women hate women.
And we actually tackle the topicof misogyny, I mean, there's a
lot of the same origins out ofit, that have nothing to do with
just the gender it just has todo with the belief systems that
somebody was given around therole of women in the in, you
know, what their stereotypetypical behavior should be. But

(42:02):
you're right like that. That'sthe same languaging typically
given to men and women both andmanifest, it's not a women are
prone to tear each other downkind of bullshit, you know,
mindset I have seen in mycareer. Again, grooming as part
of that. So thank God for thispart of it, which is, you know,
I go to these conferences thatare women conferences, and it is

(42:23):
all it's mostly collaborative,it's mostly talking about
sharing information andresources. The converse is, you
know, working in again, I haveworked in male dominated fields,
it's all competitive. It's allabout hoarding resources, not
sharing resources and becomingthreatened when competition
comes in. And in sometimes womentake signals from that type of

(42:45):
business, and then they do carryit over. And then you have to
kind of unlearn some of that.
But for the most part, you know,like this show, bringing on
women that are willing to here'smy secrets, here, they are
taken, you know, go go makemoney, go live and prosper, you
know, go do all kinds of coolthings with it. And it's really,
it's feels good, like, you know,as a person, it's like, wow, I

(43:06):
like that feeling better on mybody, like, my body feels whole
and it doesn't feel like I'mcrippled with, you know, anxiety
when I get to share and listento other people that are
supportive, you know, and, andcommunicate supportively and
empathetically andcompassionately

so and, and everything out there, nothing's
new anymore. And so that you canfigure out how to do anything.
It's who's the squad you'rewith, you know, who are you
riding with that are going tohelp build each other up?

Now, I did say I lied, I said one thing, and then
I meant one more thing, which iskneecapping. So you know,
kneecapping is something that Ithink a lot of women can
resonate with, which is theapologizing for saying something
or kind of shortening ourstance, like it undermines our
ability to communicateassertively. Do you? You know,
do you have any tips or advicewhen you notice a woman who is

(43:54):
kneecapping her statementbecause a reframe is good. But
kneecapping your pre fame? Bysaying, I'm sorry, I have to say
this, you know, like, you know,there's a again, there's a camp
that says, Stop it. Stopkneecapping your statements,
what are your thoughts ondecamping?

I was so ingrained in us I even to this day, I have
to look through my emails overand over again, make sure that
we're just isn't there? BecauseI often say, Hey, I just want to
check and see if you're free.
It's like, No, I'm checking tosee if you're free. I don't just
want to it's so dismissive. Soseeing how you correspond seeing
how you write and taking out,but just, you know, any of those
minimizing words. And the wayyou talk about yourself, if you

(44:36):
catch yourself saying, oh, man,I was stupid. That was so dumb.
I remember I was talking mydaughter and she was saying,
gosh, that was so stupid. And Iwent, hey, don't you talk to my
daughter like that? I want youto do the same thing for
yourself. Hey, don't you talk tomyself like that? You know, just
make it so that you notice itmore and more because the more
you notice it, it's going tobecome this huge red flag. You

(44:57):
know, you just see the flagswaving. And you're gonna say,
Oh, you know what it is, it'sbecoming a self fulfilling
prophecy. I'm minimizing myself,therefore, I'm allowing myself
to be minimized. And again,that's like saying, so you just
hop on the bike, and you ridedown the street, there's all
these steps to learn how to ridea bike, you know, there's
helmets that you need to seewhich one fits which one, you

(45:18):
know which path to take all thatkind of stuff. But proper
preparation prevents piss poorperformance, as they say, you
know, practice, practice,practice, whoo, I love me some
alliteration.

My poetry teacher would be so happy with
that. Well, and I know, youknow, sometimes the best places
are, like you mentioned, emailswriting, you know, sometimes we
can see and start with writingbecause it doesn't require that
face to face eye to eye contact,which can be very frightening.
And so if somebody is looking toimprove their assertive
communication skills, is tostart with something that's

(45:52):
safer, like, you know, let'sstart with our toe in the water
and then weighed out to it, youknow, into the deeper and deeper
water in places where wecommunicate in writing text
messages, you know, social mediaposts, emails to our colleagues.
And note where we aren'tcommunicating assertively,
because believe it or not, ifit's not common practice for you

(46:12):
even hitting the send button onthe exact wording you need to
say assertively to somebody elseis still going to make your
heart like race, and then you'regoing to assume somebody is mad
at you. And I mean, and that'sokay, like that all comes with
the fields. But like, you know,when it when they're, sometimes
it can be a good pre frame toallow you to defuse this
difficult conversation you mayhave by maybe saying, hey, I

(46:35):
want to come in and talk to youabout these things, these are
important to me, or these arebothering me, or whatever the
context of it is, and thensending it out and writing in an
assertive way. And now you gotthat monkey off your back. And
now you can have the face toface, it's not gonna be perfect,
but at least it you know, to me,I found in like, in my own
personal experience, that was mygood ramp to having, you know, a
really hard talk with somebodyor a talk that was going to

(46:57):
require me to set boundaries,you know, with another person.
And, and so, you know, that'smy, my two cents of advice for
somebody that would be sittingthere thinking about, like,
ultimately, we want to be ableto have the face to face
engagement if we can, but it'sokay, if we're not there yet. As
long as we start with one partof how we engage with somebody
and you know, work on that oneas we keep moving forward,

(47:18):
because it is hard. Definitely,even for people like you and I
that sit here and make it looklike you know, we can talk all
day and we're just fine. Notalways. It's closed, right?
Yeah. Okay. Well, so telleverybody how they can actually
get connected with you ifthey're interested in being able
to join a group with you. And topractice their their assertive

(47:39):
communication. Absolutely. I'm

everywhere at difficult happens. I've got the
podcast, Instagram, all thedifferent social media handles.
And if you go to difficulthappens calm, you can learn more
about the inner circle squad,where it's women like you who we
get together, and we talk aboutwhat's going on using my four
pillar strategy to recognizereclaim, restore, and refresh.
This is like an ongoing cycle.
Because whenever you try hardthings, you're going to have a

(48:03):
little bit of, you know, anemotional backlash, the fields,
and all of our similarexperience when I listened to
you dealing with difficultthings and learning how to say
no or whatever. I also learnedfrom that. So I think that a
group of women, like I say,together, we rise, So reach out
to me. And if you just want 10tips on how to deal with
difficult people, check out thewebsite. I've got some there.

Cool, awesome.
And all the links to this willbe in the podcast notes. So
everybody can just like backinto the Notes for this episode
that you're listening to andpush all those links. And I will
help you get to Laura. Actually,I just I need to motion this
way. Like I'm on my video.

That's right. Yeah.
Like the I like stream yardbecause it puts the you know,
like the words in the rightdirection and everything.

Cool. Well, Laura, I love you. And I love
talking to you all the time. Wereally truly appreciate you and
I'm so blessed that you know ourpaths did cross in this life and
we were able to share ourexperiences with each other and
work together to be able to helpother people. So that's awesome
in my book.

I feel the same. I think you're awesome.

Cool.

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