Careers That Kill with Dr. Margaret Rutherford

Did you know that suicide rates are higher in some industries than other?  In this episode, Ameé speaks with therapist and author, Dr. Margaret Rutherford about careers with a high suicide risk rate and how trauma-informed leadership can help reduce these numbers.

In the episode, you will hear:

• Which industries have the highest rates of suicide amongst their employees
• The role stigmas around mental health and mental health services play
• How workplace cultures can be harmful to people who come forward with mental health concerns or issues
• The culture in blue collar careers that may be hurting employee mental health
• Ideas for bringing mental health resources and awareness to hard-to-reach communities and industries

Resources

CDC study of careers with highest rates of suicide:  https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6903a1.htm

http://DrMargaretRutherford.com

Order Dr. Margaret's Book Today: Perfectly Hidden Depression

SelfWork Podcast - https://drmargaretrutherford.com/selfwork/

Links to buy The Fearless Woman’s Guide to Starting a Business

Amazon (Audio, Print, Kindle Versions): https://amzn.to/3daO7nA

Barnes and Noble- https://bit.ly/FearlessWomansGuide

Bookshop- https://bit.ly/FearlessWomanBookshop

Visit https://www.ameequiriconi.com/ for more articles about self-help, healing from trauma, leadership, business, and more!

Episode Transcript

Amee Quiriconi (00:00):
Hi there, everybody. Welcome to another
episode of one broken mom, hey,this is one of those
conversations that I've beenhaving over the course of this
last season where as soon as Ihit record, me and my guest, we
just start talking. And so Inever get a chance to bring in a
proper introduction at thebeginning of the conversation.
So I'm going to go ahead and cutthis short. And you guys can
jump in on my fantastic talkwith Dr. Margaret Rutherford, as

(00:24):
we begin our really enlighteningdiscussion about careers that
kill There we go. Um, and and sowhen I saw your article that you
did on careers that kill I waslike, Okay, well, I that's like,
right in the wheelhouse of thethings that I want to talk about
is to bridge the, you know, thegap in our conversations with

(00:45):
our work environments, with ourjobs, with our mental health,
with our history, with our, youknow, and all over the place
there. So

Margaret Rutherford (00:53):
yeah, it's kind of interesting, the the
actual suicide rates, thecareers that I have focused on
our doctors, but one, one ofwhich was because that that was
triggered that whole episodepodcast episode was triggered by
the Twitter feed that doctorthis doctor has, and I was
intrigued by him because he's arecovering alcoholic, and he was

(01:16):
also heavily, you know,depressed and suicidal. And his
name is Dr. Adam Hill. And Ijust, and then I started
thinking, now wait a minute,since I've been talking about
perfectionism and depression,and all that stuff, so much.
Having written the bookperfectly in depression, then I
thought, Okay, well, this wouldfit very well into self work,
which is my podcast. So anyway,so I really I have to give him

(01:41):
credit for giving me the idea,because not that I wasn't aware
of that. But I really wantedpeople to hear the kind of
thinking that goes on. And so sofar, I have featured doctors and
veterinarians, interesting. Iwould never particularly have
reached out to them. But theyreached out to me and said, Oh,

(02:02):
yeah, suicide is a huge problemfor veterinarians. And so I
thought, Okay, well, y'all cometalk to me, and it was a
fascinating discussion. And thenI've done one for Memorial Day,
we talked to both. I hate peoplewho say we I talked, we talked,

(02:25):
gosh, darn, I got to watch that.
I have a team. So I want to givethem credit, but they didn't
talk to him. I did. So I talkedto Dr. Shawna Springer, who is a
very well known in theveterinarian, not veterinary
veteran community, for her solidwork was with vets who have
become very, very depressed. Andshe is was an fascinating guest.

(02:49):
And then tragically, I talked tohim and I Danica Thomas, who a
friend of mine introduced me towhose husband had been a
military veteran, and he hadgotten not only PTSD, but a lot
of other issues. And the VA justcouldn't take care of him and he
ended the story is tragic andand not only did he kill

(03:13):
himself, but because he was in abrief psychotic episode, he
actually killed a couple ofother people. Oh, gosh. She
dedicated she's dedicated herwhole life to trying to say, you
know, my husband instead ofdying, a hero died a villain.
And I don't want that to happento anybody else because of

(03:34):
mental illness. I mean, noteverybody felt that way. But
obviously some people were veryjudgmental about that. So not
understanding what even what abrief psychotic episode is. So I
you know, I've been reallyhonored. I've also been
interested in talking to police,but actually what I did this
morning ama was I read I reallylooked at the top suicide rates

(04:00):
as far as as employment isconcerned, and it's not doctors
or, or dentist or veterinarians,or now veterans I don't have in
this list. But it's so it'sfascinating because number one
is farm workers. And an agpeople in agriculture. Or two is
carpenters miners, electricians.

(04:25):
Number three is mechanics.
Number four is factory workers.
Number five is architects andpeople who are engineering got
that mathematical mind. And thenwe get to police and actually,
they're more policemen who killthemselves and are killed on
duty. And I know this is a hugecontroversial topic right now.

(04:46):
And I don't know if you probablywant to go into and I don't I'm
not an expert about it. But Ithink that is a striking
statistic statistic. And then weget down more to something These
people that I've talked to notthat that's. And then there's
the striking, striking statisticthat 20 vets kill themselves a

(05:10):
day in the United States. Andthere are only 130 people who
kill only 130 people who killthemselves. So that is almost
what my math is terrible 20% 20%Yeah, it was to 20% of the
people who die by suicide in theUnited States are veterans. So
and it's Dr. sprayer brought upor she's called doc brought up

(05:32):
that you would think that thoseare more recent warriors, people
who, from Afghanistan and thatkind of thing. They are not,
they are actually older warriorswho had the highest percentage
of that. So I just went off on adiatribe about suicide rates and
profession. So

Amee Quiriconi (05:50):
that's okay. And you know what I'm just gonna
say, it's for everybody that'sjoining in, you're listening to
Dr. Margaret Rutherford. AndI've done this on a couple of
episodes already, where theconversation just started. And I
didn't do my normal warm up. AndI'm like, we're just going for
it. And so everybody, we'rehaving another one of those
episodes again, and it's becausethis is an important topic, and
it's, there's so much out there.
And, and you know, and so thecontext of today is to talk

(06:13):
about what we see, we call itcareers that kill you know, is
there Are there areas of ofemployment or professional work
experiences, where we see theserates that are higher than
others. And I have talked aboutmilitary veterans before with
other military veterans andaddressing, you know, the
startling rates of suicidewithin that community, but we

(06:35):
don't think about like, youknow, that's amazing, the list
that you just rattled off there,because some of those jobs don't
seem like the high stress, I'mair quoting it for the
listeners, you know, the highstress jobs or the, you know,
fraught with danger, or youknow, where you could be
subjected to things that wouldcould cause post traumatic
stress, responses or disorders.

(06:57):
What I heard in that list,however, though, is that they're
overwhelmingly blue collarfields and male dominated
fields. And we do know that thehigher rates of suicide of dying
by suicide, and I'll say theword successfully, but not in a
terrible word, it's a terribleword. But you know, our men in

(07:17):
middle age, you know, the 40 to55 year old, you know, that's in
my generation next generation.
And that's the group that'sgrowing at the at a larger rate.
It means, right, like, usuallythe those deaths are due to guns
because of accessibility to gunsand firearms. Exactly.

Margaret Rutherford (07:35):
Yeah. And so it also, this article that I
read pointed out that sometimesthere's access to healthcare,
that's not as good in these morerural kind of communities. But
also just probably, you know,given what I know about mental
health stigma, those not not tostereotype, but a lot of times,

(07:58):
I think those kind ofprofessions, attract people who
are very independent to attractpeople who may or may may have
kind of worshiped at our, theirfamilies or their cultures, you
know, believe in stoicism maybefrom from a religious viewpoint
or from a cultural viewpoint.
And, you know, I'm sure that ifI had said to my grandfather,

(08:21):
who was a work in lumber, that,you know, I was going to be a
therapist, he, he would havelooked at me and said, Well,
those people are those, thoseare the people that study their
belly buttons, I think heprobably would have said, and
I'm like, Well, you know, that'sone way to look at it.
So, you know, there'sa disparagement of, often of,

(08:42):
that's kind of silly, and youjust rub some dirt in it and go
on and, and I understand thatsometimes you do rub some dirt
in it, and that's what you gotto do. I have plenty of dirty
wounds myself. So, you know,some of that is, you know, you
got to you definitely want tofind that, that resilience that

(09:04):
is important, but at the sametime, I'm a huge advocate for
the idea that you can both beresilient and connect with your
vulnerability all the same time.

Amee Quiriconi (09:17):
Right. Yeah, absolutely. And you know, and as
I've you know, made a kind of apivot for myself of bringing one
broken mom and all the work hereto the work that I've done as an
entrepreneur and as a businessconsultant, you know, my focus
that you know, I kind of startedoff 2021 with bringing trauma
informed leadership tobusinesses and organizations
because I think aboutinteresting frontline workers

(09:40):
and let's just call them afrontline worker. You know, I've
worked in blue collar I've hadmy manufacturing business, I've
worked in engineering I'veworked in those fields with the
high rates of suicide there andand I'm, you know, I grew up as
rub dirt in it and move on, youknow, type of a person. Well,
you know, fast forward a fewyears and guess what, that
didn't always work for me and Ineeded to figure out you know,
my journey but You know, I thinkabout a lot of these companies

(10:04):
that I've worked with, that I'veworked for, with or whatever,
usually lack a fully definedhuman resources department. HR
is something that maybe theperson who's doing the
accounting or even like thepresident of the company is
doing, right. So within thecompany itself, there isn't a
good conduit to help. And, youknow, and for me, you know,

(10:25):
opting out of doing justexclusively like business
coaching, or executive coaching,I, you know, I think about the
people that don't know how toresource themselves to get
mental health help, and how tostart conversations in
organizations where everyone's atough guy, and everyone's You
know, it has that stigma, thatmindset, and this isn't shaming.
I know you and I both know this,like, when we talk about the

(10:46):
stigma, and we talk about peopleunwilling to address mental
health, we're not trying toshame them for the lack of
skills, it's just, those areskills that have to be taught,
right. And when you come fromfamily dynamics, cultural
dynamics, like you pointed outrule areas where there is lack
of resource and just really anacceptance of taking care of our
brain, the way that we take careof the rest of our body. I

Margaret Rutherford (11:09):
mean, it is a huge challenge, and it breaks
my heart that it the work needsto be done. You know, it's
funny, we're doing thisinterview this week, because I'm
doing a my podcast episode is onthe new documentary, The me you
can't see. And I was, you know,mentioning, you know, Prince
Harry, if you want to call himHarry or Prince Harry, whatever

(11:30):
you want to call him. He callshimself Harry that, you know, he
said, I had no idea which iskind of hard to believe that
both the kind of life he'd livedbeing a royal and then his
mother tragically dying, itnever occurred to him that some
of the things that might begoing on with him in the
present, were connected withthat. And you might think, Well,

(11:52):
you know, he's making a lot ofmoney saying that, and that's
interesting. And look at him.
Now, if you're a bit doubtfulabout all that kind of thing,
but it made me think about thishuge burly guy that I saw one
time I'm in Arkansas. So I'm ina fable, Arkansas, which is in
the right at the cusp of theOzark Mountains. And I've been

(12:15):
here for a long time. And I'veopened my practice to I mean,
I've seen lawyers and seeing,you know, corporate people, but
I've also seen people who workon the chicken line at Tyson.
And I've seen, you know,firefighters and I've seen all
kinds, I've loved seeing a gamutof people, wide gamut of people.
And I'll never get this big,former prison guard. And he came

(12:38):
in some what like, like, youknow, didn't really know why he
was there. His wife hadsuggested it to him, because he
found that he was, would getvery angry with her. And he
actually loved her a lot anddidn't want to do that was
quite, you know, he would flyinto these kind of rages. And as

(12:59):
we began talking about hischildhood, he would kind of look
at me, like, very like what youknow, and I'd say, Well, you
know, you had a stepfather thatliterally, every time he came
home, rubbed his finger alongthe furniture that you were
supposed to have dusted andcleaned, and if there was a

(13:20):
speck on it, you got the youknow, what beat out of you? And
he said, Well, you know, heloved me, Well, my dad laughed,
and I said, that's great. Headded some obviously great
sides, but it sounds like anOCD, or something. And he could
be very punitive. And the morewe talked, the more he realized
that there was a connectionthere because he won when he was

(13:44):
a prison guard, he got all thataggression out. Maybe that's
sort of sad to think about, buthe did. And then when he that
ended, these are when theserages started, and he realized
that when his wife was he, whenhe was beginning to feel as if

(14:06):
he were under pressure with herto act a certain way. He would
become enraged. And we began,I'll never forget the day he
goes, You mean, something thathappened to me when I was six,
has something to do with who Iam at 50? And I said, Yeah. He
said, Well, that makes sense. Inever would have imagined that

(14:31):
and, you know, it's it's kind ofit's very rewarding to help
people see that. And, believe itor not, he began to look at that
and realize that was a bigtrigger, and he didn't do it
anymore. But it was it waswonderful to see him begin to
adopt this. And this other wayof thinking that is more about

(14:54):
systems and patterns and anddamage that just lies silent for
a long time. And yet because youcan't see it, it has an effect
on you. So,

Amee Quiriconi (15:07):
yeah, yeah. And I, you know, and I did an
interview yesterday for anotherpodcast and I was talking about,
you know, similarly to thiswhere, you know, for me, I had
that kind of that same mentalityof like, you know, I didn't
understand and it came down tothis, I boiled it down to this,
it came down to understandinghow brain science happens. Yeah,

(15:28):
I mean, it's really nerve, it'sneural pathways, you know, I was
in the camp of the stuff thatmakes me cry, when I think about
it as a little kid, obviously,is not important. It's just a
sad memory, you know, just kindof kept it over there. This
person I was talking toyesterday, we were talking about
mindfulness. And I said, youknow, to be honest, when people
would talk about identifyingyour inner child, I thought that
all sounded really woowoo to me,you know, because it's like an

(15:51):
inner child, you know, like, youknow, and you see all that, and
I'm just like, that's not likethat. That can't be it. But as
soon as I learned about how theneural pathways form, and that
it's a, it's a programmingfunction of a human brain, and
then the fact that no one's everbeen taught, of course, we're
learning so much recently. Butthen on top of that, we haven't

(16:11):
integrated that into ourlanguage of knowing like, how do
you cure a scratch on your hand?
And you know, what happens ifyou have a heart problem and all
the other things that we thatare commonplace in our education
of this? You know, the body thatwe have? That it was like, Oh,
well, then that that absolutelymakes sense to me, if you're
telling me that my neuralpathways are forming, have a lot
of them before the age of three,then I go through adolescent

(16:33):
brain development from 11 to 25.
And at the same time, I'm youknow, and I break it down from
the science like, well, thenyeah, now I've got a, I've got a
reprogramming thing to do, like,I have a computer whose
operating system is still what,you know, 486, you know, in a
Windows one. Since you know,1990, you know, and that's the

(16:57):
last time it received a majorupdate. Yeah, no, I need to get
this thing up to speed. And thenI know for me that that
practical sense of looking at itthen said, Okay, then when we
talk about an inner child, whatwe're talking about is the
neural pathways formed undertoxic stress under abusive
conditions under a neglect,under whatever the trauma, you
know, may have happened to us.
And that trauma wasn't big, itcould have been a lot of small

(17:19):
traumas. But now my memories, myemotions are based on those
experiences. And all I have todo is to update it to the adult
version of my adult life, andkind of resolve that. Okay, I'm
in, you know, I can I can dothis.

Margaret Rutherford (17:34):
Yeah. Well, I just sent someone for the
first time, which I'm wish I'dsaid other people, I just read
Bessel Vander kolk book, thebody keeps the score. That's
actually not true. I had readhis book before I actually took
a seminar from him, which isvastly different. The book was
kind of pedantic, but he speaksso wonderfully. And it was like

(17:59):
a whole different experience.
And he talked a lot aboutneurofeedback being one of the
things that he trusts the most,as far as retraining those
neural pathways. And I have myfirst patient trying it in,
she's a doctor. And she waslike, well, this makes sense to
me, you know. And this, Iunderstand, so it's gonna be
really interesting. And there'sa lot of research with both

(18:20):
neurofeedback and then somethingcalled EMDR, which does the same
thing, which is eye movementdesensitization and reprocessing
therapy that actually begins touse, and you know, this to use
the plasticity of the brain inits, you know, to heal it. So

(18:42):
that's really,it's just fascinating.

Amee Quiriconi (18:48):
Yeah, yeah, it really is. And it goes back to,
you know, kind of what we, youknow, have the discussion for
today, which is, you know, thereis this disconnect between
again, people are believing thatand actually businesses and
organizations I'll put this I'm,you know, I'm holding businesses
accountable. That's like, my newthing for 2021 is to help

(19:10):
business leaders accountable forthe environments that they
create. And I think a lot oftimes too many businesses don't
believe that, that they have anyaccountability in the mental
health of the people that workfor them. Because, you know, it
would be easy to say, well, thatperson was probably going to try
to die by suicide even if theydidn't work for me or they did

(19:32):
something else. And that may bea true statement you know, but
it's also possible like thisSchrodinger cat like both of
these things can actually betrue that maybe they wouldn't
have if not for the relationshipat work the environment at work,
maybe they were, you know,treated hostile Lee maybe the

(19:54):
you know, everybody in this, youknow, organization had a culture
of, you know, punitive action.
against the employees and youknow, or there was a lack of
trust amongst everybody. Andthose Actually, we know can
contribute to these underlyingtraumas that people may be
holding on to or re triggeringthese traumas that are in there.
And to me, I think that's theimportant thing that I like to

(20:14):
see, with, you know, especiallyin these careers, like I said,
the careers that you've pointedout are the ones that have the
least access, it seems to theresources for the individuals
who are the most at risk.

Margaret Rutherford (20:28):
Well, and even the profession so far that
I have I have talked with, I'mtalking about Dr. Adam Hill
again, and he said, you know,it's just having an emotional
reaction to something as amedical professional is just
beaten out of you very, veryearly and, and you are, you just

(20:51):
kind of become this. Your incredincredibly fatigued, and some of
this is his, you know, we'veheard about a lot, but he also
had an interesting experience,because he literally was out of
the woods with a gun and, and,you know, was drunk as he could
be, he was just smashed. And itwas a phone call from his wife

(21:13):
that, and thank God, there was acell phone tower nearby, that,
you know, kind of woke him up towhat he was doing. But then he
went to this person that hereally trusted another doctor
and said, I'm going to comeforward with this as my truth.
And not out of really the wayAdam tells it, not out of like,

(21:39):
judgment, but out of a sense ofreal concern. Hey, bud, are you
sure you want to do this, Imean, this is not going to be
some Disney story about youcoming forward with, you know,
having, you know, drinkingyourself and not drunk at work,
but dropping as soon as he gothome. And then this depression.

(22:01):
And he said, I have to, and sureenough, his career suffered.
That's part of the book is thathe was a pediatric oncologist.
And that there were someramifications, there were some
people who all of a sudden, hewent invited to committee
meetings. And now that changedover the years. And now, in

(22:23):
fact, he has been very active inhis State Medical organization
to stop some of the licensurequestioning about mental health
issues, it's really veryintrusive. And, and, and will
cause people to think I betternot tell anybody, because I
might, you know, not be able topeople will see me as not able
to function. But he was veryhonest about that. That that

(22:46):
there would be ramifications. Ithink when you talk about
creating an environment at work,where, you know, when you get
into trouble, it's understoodthat That, to me is one of the
most important markers is thatif you report if you say I need
to take FMLA, or you need totake care of yourself in some

(23:06):
way, or you need some time off,or you need to go into rehab, or
whatever it is that there arenot ramifications for that.
There may be some, hey, I reallywant to talk to you about how
you you believe this hasaffected your functioning? And
how can we help you get back towhere you're fulfilling your
potential. But so many peopletell me still, now I know I'm in

(23:32):
Arkansas, but they'll say, Oh, Idon't want to fall insurance
because I don't want to, youknow, I'm scared, my employer
will know, I'm in therapy orwhatever. So we just got to get,
you know, we've got to changethat.

Amee Quiriconi (23:44):
Right. Right.
Absolutely. And, you know, Iknow you're, you know, in
Arkansas, but I've heard thisfrom other people that even know
better that, you know, and I sayno better air quotes around it.
Right. You know, they're,they're the professionals that
are aware of, you know, howmental health is. And still when
the suggestion is made to takeadvantage of the EAP, which is
the Employer AssistancePrograms, which are basically

(24:04):
the access companies have tomental health resources, right,
they won't do it. Because thereis this underlying fear of, you
know, does this mean there'ssomething wrong with me? Or the
you know, what happens now thatmy company knows that I'm going
to therapy, you know, what,what's that going to mean?
Because while you know ourorganizations have some people

(24:27):
that are understanding theirorganizations also have other
people that may not be and haveall their own stigmas and shame
swirling around in their head,you know, regarding mental
health, and and that's incompanies that have access to
it, you still have this hurdlefor people to want to take that
step. I think some of us I gointo therapy like I did it
because if I didn't do it, I sawthat I saw my kids future and I

(24:48):
did not like my kids future andI had been studying it for like
on the self help journey forquite some time like, well, the
next step is is I need like, Ineed help. I need help getting
through the rest. And thedeeper, more painful parts of
it. And that was proactive formost people, they're going along
with the same ideas, like yousaid, like we talked about,
like, I've just never beentaught that it matters or that I

(25:10):
need to or that, you know, theonly people that need therapy
are ones that have mental healthillnesses, you know, but that's
not that's not true. And that'sthe language that we're trying
to change for people. Right.

Margaret Rutherford (25:23):
Right, exactly. And as you were
talking, I was thinking aboutsome other people that I've seen
over the years that have managedto overcome some of that fear by
saying, you know, if this mean,what's the worst thing that
could happen? And then we kindof go along that range of
thought or that that thoughtpattern and say, you know, I, I

(25:47):
want to have hope that I can bethere for my family, or I can be
a more fulfilled person, if thatmeans I need to change something
professionally. Now, you know,money doesn't grow on trees. And
I realized that that is a factormore than realize. But yeah, I
think certainly our culture istrying to talk about this.

(26:10):
Again, in the documentary, Theme you can't see they talk about
the Apple Watch two episodes,but they say the question is not
what's wrong with you? Thequestion is what's happened to
you? Yep. And so andacknowledging that this is not
about a deficit, that's, youknow, this kind of trauma, as

(26:33):
you were talking about both bigt little tease, it's called in
my business is that big trauma,little trauma, is that, you
know, not mental illness can becaused by a lot of different
things, trauma being one ofthem. But not everyone who
experiences trauma develops acategorical mental illness, you

(26:55):
know, more like this guy whosaid, I just get mad, you know,
and it's, it's, it's a problem,and it's tied with the trauma,
but it's, it's, you know,anybody he's not classically
depressed, he doesn't fit thatcriteria.

Amee Quiriconi (27:09):
Right. Right.
And that's actually more common.
I mean, that's what I think thata lot of, we've we've, we've
created, you know, in the past,we've talked about it as you're
fine, or you're mentally ill,right? It's black or white.
Right? Right. And I didn't get adiagnosis, either, because you
didn't want one because youdidn't want the stigma and the
you know, the red flag plantedon your forehead that says,

(27:32):
You've got a problem and you'reyou can't function as an adult,
and you kept it to yourself, oryou just didn't have anything
that would be diagnosticallydetermined to be something that
would be you know, categorizedas is an illness, but there's a
lot of people walking, and weall like, I don't think that I
would get a mental illnessdiagnosis either. But that
doesn't mean my life was great.
And I didn't have problems.

Margaret Rutherford (27:52):
No, no, no.
And in that, of course, theinteresting thing is insurance
will only cover for mentalillnesses through these things
called v codes, which arebasically things like parental
neglect, and domestic abuse. Andthese things, and when I first
came into graduate school, I waslisting out I was listing all
these v codes, because that'swhat I was seeing. And then we

(28:14):
got I was working for said,Don't you realize that insurance
won't pay for this? And that'sit? No, nobody's talked to me
about that in graduate school.
So you have to give somebody adiagnosis, if they've if they're
going to get insurance coverage,it doesn't mean you lie about
it, it means that, you know, youfind the diagnosis that they
most accurately represent. Imean, occasionally, I've looked

(28:37):
at someone and said, I reallycan't diagnose you with
anything. But that is, you know,their diagnoses are really can
be very gentle. There's onecalled adjustment disorder with
mixed emotional features. And,you know, you tend to use that
one a lot. But I do want to saybefore I go on, for anyone who's
listening to this from Arkansas,or who loves Arkansas, Arkansas

(28:59):
is just, it's just a, you know,it's an interesting state to
live in. We have a very, I livein a university town, and there
are a lot of people who know awhole lot about mental health
and, and yet, it is a more ruralstate where a lot of the
understanding of things stillhave a long way to I have a long
way to go.

Amee Quiriconi (29:18):
Oh, yeah. And I will and I grew up in Kansas, so
I fully understand where youknow, every town is like,
literally like an island, youcan be 1015 miles away from the
next town, and you'll nevertravel there unless you
absolutely have to live in theselittle pocketed communities.
And, and there is like, youknow, there's a, I would say
it's back in time, but it islike there is something you

(29:40):
know, true to that a lot ofpeople that are just, you know,
built around fortitude. I thinksometimes we talk about
intergenerationally. You know,we're talking about states that
actually experienced, you know,the dustbowl in the depression,
and you said at the top of thelist is agricultural jobs.
That's right. Well, thoseagricultural jobs are in these
rural states. You know, youknow, these are Farmers the end,

(30:01):
you know, people that work onfarms, maybe tied to the same
business that their own familyhas had for generation after
generation. profitability isweak. You know, I mean, it's not
a living that you can get in.
And sometimes, you know,depending on the person, I think
it can just seem like it's justhopeless, it's like, you don't
see anything else that you cando, or, you know, a future for
yourself, because yourobligation was to take on the

(30:23):
family business, and work at it,you know, on your own. So. And
that seems like that would be achallenging, you know, career,
like, how do you get to peoplethat are just already isolated
from the world, and safelyintroduce something new to them,
such as their mental health andwell being, and resources and

(30:44):
access to it? I think that'slike, you know, that's a
phenomenal challenge to thinkabout solving.

Margaret Rutherford (30:51):
Yes, you know, I've both worked at our
community clinic here in inArkansas, and then I've done a
lot of volunteer work at thefree health center, and it is
working with one, they are soincredibly grateful. And they're
there because they do recognizethings. But they also will say

(31:12):
to me, you know, I can't talkabout this with anybody but you
because my family won'tunderstand. They just say get
over this, what happens toeverybody? And so I you know, it
isit will be I think it's better
than it used to be. But Iso love your position on we

(31:34):
really need to put theresponsibility on. Businesses, I
before the pandemic hit, I hadbeen asked to speak at a it was
kind of a stretch it was forthese managers of art centers.
And they had a huge convention.

(31:56):
And well, huge was big. And theyasked me to speak about this
perfectly in depression, I kindof looked at him and said, Well,
okay, I'm but how do you thinkand they said exactly what you
just said, you know, they notonly need to be educated about
what depression can look like,in all its forms, and it doesn't

(32:19):
necessarily look like themelancholic or the angry person
in the corner that, you know,punches in at nine and leaves at
five, and it doesn't have anyfriends and all that kind of
thing. It's also the person whois highly successful and
pressured and looking like he'san A plus, or she is an A plus
employee. And yet, you know,they are really suffering so,

(32:43):
and to talk about the importanceof that kind of mental mental
health awareness. I knew thatsomething was changing when I
was asked to be to a small groupat Walmart. It was it was a
small group, but it was Walmart.
So that was good.

Amee Quiriconi (32:58):
Yeah, yeah, no, that is really good. You know, I
was sitting there thinkingabout, you know, with these top
careers, or these industries,where, you know, the Suicide is
the highest, there are stillprofessional organizations
within them. And so, you know, Iwas sitting there thinking,
like, how do you get to farmers?
Well, I know I live in a smallfarm community outside of
Seattle, like it's a bedroomcommunity, and it's a farm
community. In fact, this iswhere, you know, for a couple of

(33:19):
years, I actually owned a farmout here and Well, yeah, and
actually introduced, what's itcalled? COVID squat, Hall mesh,
no.

Margaret Rutherford (33:29):
Amish. My son actually lived in Seattle
for a while, and I actually beenthere.

Amee Quiriconi (33:34):
lovely town got great stories. Yeah. And so you
know, one of the things that Idid a few years ago is I
published a book on how to, youknow, how to do agritourism
weddings on rural properties inorder to help increase
profitability because it is away of being able to make more
money. And you know, thesefarmers really do like to go to
like Farm Bureau meetings. Andyou know, and there are so there

(33:56):
are these ways and I'm justsitting here like, my brain is
like swirling around, like, youknow, with these industries, and
can you read them off again realcuz I'd be more than happy to.
Yeah, go ahead. Yeah, he wantsthe listeners to what? Well I
cuz any listeners that mightknow people in this field or
maybe identify with this field,this is where I want them to

(34:16):
kind of have some awarenesslevel. So go go ahead and go
through the show. Again, numberone is farmer farmer farmworkers
are farmers and anyone inagriculture, number two,
carpenters, miners,electricians, and basically
construction workers.

Margaret Rutherford (34:32):
Number three is mechanics. Number four
is any kind of line work orfactory workers. Then then
number five is architects andengineers. Then it goes on to
number six. By the way, thefirst the highest suicide rate
in women is when they are policeofficers or correction officers,

(34:53):
and the second is lawyers.
Number six again, with men beingdominant police and other
Protective Services,firefighters paramedics. Number
seven is artists, creativepeople. Number eight is computer
programmers. Number nine istransportation workers. I mean
your bus driver, your yoursubway operator, your train, you

(35:15):
know, operator. Number 10 isagain corporate exact. So you
can see this shift between bluecollar and white collar 11 is
lawyers number 12 is medicalprofessionals any kind number 13
is scientists interesting.
Number 14 is accountants were 50or any any kind of thing nor 15

(35:39):
is nursing and number 16 isclergy.

Amee Quiriconi (35:42):
Wow. So the top 10 are blue collar professional,
right? dominated by men, exceptfor architects where Yeah, with
the exception of architects, buteven then, you know, my
experience going through I havean architectural engineering
degree. It's still a heavilylike the true form of
architecture. Still a lot ofmore men in the field. Oh, yeah.

Margaret Rutherford (36:02):
You're in me. Yeah. architecture school
here. And they have also Yeah,I'm often that a lot of those
students. It's so stressful.
They come in for therapy. So

Amee Quiriconi (36:11):
yeah, I remember my roommate. She and I had known
each other since we wereteenagers. And she went into
interior architecture and likewe barely saw each other because
she was in studio the whole timedoing project after project and,
you know, so it's Don't get mestarted on architectural
programs. So Oh, my gosh, yeah,that's pretty astonishing. And

(36:32):
so, you know, when we weretalking about I know, when you
were, the first topic came up, Iwas zeroing in like, you were on
the doctors and the lawyers andthe, you know, those high
conflict fields, but to find outthat, you know, those are
important, obviously, but theydon't even crack the top 10 in
terms of the career you know,the careers of the industries
that see the hired the highestrates of, of suicide. Now, I

(36:53):
wonder if the differences I'mjust speculating here, but let's
talk about access to mentalhealth resources, right, your
top 10 tend to come from like Isaid, companies in my
experience, don't have humanresources departments, how they
rub your dirt in it, go for it,you know, deal with it, don't be
a sissy, or whatever derogativeroad you want to use to describe
somebody who wants to sharefeelings. And but once you get

(37:15):
to corporate, you start gettingaccess not only to money to pay
for therapy, but possiblybusiness structures and
organizations that actuallyoffer it or have a culture that
maybe is more welcoming to it.
And I wonder out loud, if thatmay be why some you know, the
breaking point at 10 is becauseyou've got better access.

Margaret Rutherford (37:36):
I think the I think the researchers would
agree with you, they talked alot about with farmers,
pesticide, so some sort ofneurological issues. You know,
when we see who else is on thelist here, carpenters, I mean,
electricians, I mean, that kindof that kind of works also very
dangerous. A lot of times,construction workers, mechanics,

(38:01):
I mean, you know, the otherthing that strikes me is that,
although a lot of those peopleeither work, you know, in small
business or work by themselves,even as contractors, it's very
dependent on economics. So youcan you're not really, you know,
you're not really in control ofhow, of what level of work you

(38:26):
can do. I mean, it depends onwhere you are, I guess some
people I guess, always, youknow, mechanics are but it you
know, I don't know if it's aboutlevel of education.

Unknown (38:37):
I

Margaret Rutherford (38:40):
I would have to look at that. I don't
know if level, I mean, if truelevel of education has much to
do with it, I would imagine itit does. Again, I think more
access to resources you know,the the less quote unquote
education you have formaleducation you have probably the
less likely you are to look tomore educated people, mental

(39:04):
health professionals, forexample, to think oh, I can
trust these people. You know,that's you know, when I'm when
I'm working in in centers whereI'm more of those folks are
there. I you know, my upbringingwas in a small southern town and

(39:26):
like I say, my dad was in mygranddad was in lumber. My dad
was the local funeral director.
And I watched my dad deal withso many different kinds of
people and I hope that I'vedeveloped a way of trying to
just be with and try tounderstand you know, another
point of view my my husband'sfamily, were farmers and

(39:49):
lumbermen and in lumber in therural Missouri. So, you know,
it's, it, there's an underStanding have, you know, that
that environment can oftenactually as we were talking
about it, I think that it can besocially, very, very protective

(40:12):
or, you know, we take care ofour own kind of thing,

Amee Quiriconi (40:20):
mistrust, their skepticism, and it's very
outsiders, a lot of mistrust.

Margaret Rutherford (40:25):
And so, I think, you know, when I can talk
about things that peoplesense in me that I at least have
some working knowledge of it,that that's helpful, I just
admit, you know, how, how doesthe chicken lay an egg. And I
just admit my complete ignoranceabout it. I don't know how it

(40:47):
doesn't crack. And so, you know,it's, it's, I let them be the
teacher in the expert for awhile, and then I can, maybe
they can help them a bit canbegin to see that I'm not coming
from a judgmental place I'mcoming from, hey, this is
something else for you toconsider.

Amee Quiriconi (41:10):
Yeah, well, and that, you know, one of the
things when you're talking aboutlike trauma informed practices
or trauma informed, you know,applying it to organizations and
leadership, one, one of theprinciples of creating a trauma
informed or trauma sensitive,you know, school or prison or,
or healthcare business orcompany, is actually integrating

(41:31):
the survivors, the traumasurvivors into it, because of
the not only can traumasurvivors be the real faces of
the, you know, and, and be braveto share their experiences, but,
you know, a trauma response. AndI had just read one of the
research studies here, and theywere talking about, you know,
what are cognitive responses totraumas, and one of them is to
think that we're alone. Youknow, it's normal for a trauma

(41:55):
person or trauma survivor tobelieve that they are just by
themselves, and no one couldpossibly understand, or no one
has ever experienced it. And,and so that isolation is this,
you know, you just kind of don'twant to talk about it. And don't
believe that you that there isanybody and I think that one of
the reasons why you know, myshow in particular, and why the
work that you do, and what otherpeople when we talk about stuff

(42:16):
like this out in public, is thatpeople realize, Oh, my God, like
you're going through this, too,oh, my God, you've been through
this as well. And so I'm notalone. And then it builds that
trust. And that because it'sit's not just that I'm an
expert, and I'm talking at youwith facts and figures, right?
I'm relating to you, as a humanwho has felt all the fields and

(42:37):
have gone through the, you know,the crying and the pain and the
anger and all that. And, and sowhen I'm talking about an
experience, it means thathopefully you connect with it in
your way. And then you buildthat that in there. And that
would be I mean, to me is likethat would be a powerful inroad,
because you can't just have anexpert come in and try to train
everybody on how to be moreemotionally intelligent.

Margaret Rutherford (42:59):
No, no. And and Shawna Springer, again, Doc
Springer, her, I was fascinatedwith her book, it's called
warrior. And I can't rememberthe subtitle, but quite long as
I recall, but she has learnedshe has just been steeped in
that military culture in whatshe has done. For example, She

(43:22):
uses the term, oh, you're goingthrough a sniper attack, when
you are experiencing a rush ofemotion that seems unexpected,
and you don't know what to dowith it, and you go into fight
or flight, she has incorporatedmilitary terminology into her
work so that people know exactlywhat she's talking about all of

(43:46):
a sudden, you know, andcertainly if I were lucky enough
to work with a farm bureau orsomething like that, in fact,
maybe maybe that's what I'll dowhen I retire. You know, from
what I'm doing right now, Iwould love to try to go into the
community and learn and, andactually make a difference

(44:07):
there. But it's kind of like, ona win win. When I'm working with
a Mormon. In fact, I'm workingwith several Mormons right now,
a couple Mormon families. Iasked them, send me some links
and let me I've read the Book ofMormon, I'm trying to understand
their way of thinking aboutthings so I don't push my you

(44:31):
know, Presbyterian, or at leastthat's where I was grew up way
of thinking about things. And soif I'm working with a Jewish
person, or I want to understandwhat, what their languages for
something and I that's, ifyou're therapists out there
listening to this, that's what Ireally ask you to do is to try

(44:54):
to gain the trust of the personand then ask them so in your
world What does this look like?
You know, what kind of wordswould you use? What kind of
experiences a guy comes to mindthat was a paramedic, and he was
having a lot of trouble. Therewas a certain incident that he
couldn't forget. And he wastelling me his story. And I

(45:14):
said, Well, you know, have youhad other what's your history
of, of seeing, you know, reallybad things happening to you? And
he was talking to me about this.
And I said, Well, there was atone time that my god scalped,
but that's not really a bigdeal. I said,
Excuse me. What do you tell me?
He goes, Oh, that happened onthe forum all the time, I got

(45:36):
too close to a saw or something.
And I, you know, scraped a bigpiece of my forehead off, and I
was like, Okay, so we havedefinitely different definitions
of trauma. You know, because hegoes, Oh, you know, that was
just and then he went on toexplain to me, what more he
thought of his trauma. And ithelped me understand his his
toleration point was weredifferent than the city girl

(46:02):
that I am. So, you know, that Ijust think that if, again, if
there are any mental healthprofessionals listening, that
you don't walk in and assumethat your model of the world is
theirs, it's just not. Right.

Amee Quiriconi (46:19):
Yeah. And I will tell you like, talking with C,
PTSD survivors and therapistsacross the board, you know, the
tolerance level for people thathave experienced, you know, just
compounded trauma throughouttheir whole life. Right, not
just one incident like oneflashbulb moment. But just on
and on, and they No, nodifferent have deep reservoirs

(46:40):
for handling tough stuff. Infact,

Margaret Rutherford (46:42):
it was interesting that when the
pandemic first startedoccurring, those folks did much
better than the average JoeJoe's ad, because, you know,
they had this these this skillset, does a guy know exactly
what it is, you're alwayswaiting to be triggered? Because
you don't know what's out there.
And you know, you're scared tobreathe, literally. And so, you
know, but now, as it wore on, Ithink they caught up with people

(47:07):
who have struggled in their ownway. But yeah, they would say I
did find this and bother me atall. So

Amee Quiriconi (47:17):
yeah, no, when one of the things you were
talking about, I just wanted tocircle back to this, because
it's it popped into my head, andI wanted to bring this up,
because you talked abouteconomics of some of those
positions. And when I thinkabout it, like I said, like with
farming, farming is an up anddown. It's not a steady cash
flow, you know, one season canbe great, and another season can
be terrible. And then you'remaking insurance claims for crop

(47:38):
loss or whatever it is. andfinancial strain is, is really
heavy on those top 10 careers.
Right? construction goes up anddown. You know, I lived through
the recession, I lost amanufacturing company during the
recession, like because it wasall about the building
construction industry, realestate comes and goes. And, and
that is a you know, that's atrait that's a trauma in the

(48:00):
present life that we alsoreveal. And so when we're
talking, you and I are talkingabout trauma, you know, we're
focused on what has happened inthe past, but the reality is, is
that some of its in the past,but it is living in experiencing
it right now. Exactly. Andthat's where like I said, from a
work from a work level, Ibelieve work contributes to it

(48:20):
more than we ever really go, Oh,my God, you're absolutely right.
It actually is, and changingthat. But the scarcity, the
financial scarcity is a hugeburden, because nothing's free,
you got to pay rent, you got tobuy food, you got to, you know,
maybe you gotten into debt, youknow, because there at times
hasn't been enough money oryou've just been, you know, you
know, not keeping track or, orwhatever it is. And so it seems

(48:43):
like, you know, in these careerswhere you're you go up and down
with the economy, man, it's aroller coaster, you know?

Margaret Rutherford (48:54):
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And that
kind of how many people have Isee not in the farming
community, not even in thatcommunity who have gotten
themselves into financial debt,and they kill themselves because
they have figured out a way tonot to make it look like they
didn't kill themselves, and theytheir spouses, get the insurance

(49:18):
and whatever. So, you know, thathas happened a lot. And in this
kind of shame around, not beingable to take care of yourself or
your family, mostly your familyis, you know, another career
that was on this list a littlefurther down, were real estate
agents. And I think like yousaid, they are just as much as

(49:40):
some of these other professions,you know, going to be affected
by financial crises and how didyou handle all of that losing
the business and Luke, you know,

Amee Quiriconi (49:52):
I handled it poorly. Well, so what happened
was it the struggle of the lossis what caused my marriage to
end. So because my my husband atthe time, and I and I talked
about this in my book, it's astory that I actually share, you
know, I, he was like, just giveit up and, and, you know, quit

(50:14):
just close the business down.
And I felt so unfulfilled inachieving what I wanted to get
out of that plus, I hademployees that I did not want to
let go during a recession. Imean, there was just this heavy
heart I had. And I actually Ireally despised him, for him
treating my business as if itwas no big deal. And it would be
too easy for me to walk away.

(50:35):
Now I made an emotionaldecision. And in retrospect, it
would have been easier to havegrieved the loss of the
business, if I had just closedit down and moved on and did
something but it was such a bigpart of who I was, and my
identity as a person, that itjust wasn't possible. So I ended
up actually going into apartnership with another person.

(50:56):
And another person actually wasvery abusive. And that is what
broke me was actually the day today mental abuse that I dealt
with there coming home to thepartner who thought I should
have given it all up. So I hadno emotional support there. And
then on top of that, I had twokids, two little kids, you know,
they weren't five and, and andlet's see five and three. Oh,

(51:17):
wow, there were so how I handledit was left my marriage, my
husband became the custodialparent, because I had no
capacity there, I tried to keepthe business going, I lost that
eventually, I moved out to thecountry. And I moved into an
abusive relationship that Iwould go through for seven
years. And it would be how Iwould come to where I am today

(51:38):
would be to go the downwardspiral of losing something that
was important like that. So whenI say handled poorly, I, you
know, it wasn't easy to do, Icouldn't just walk away from it.
And it was it was hard. And youknow, and I I never considered
suicide, but I did make somevery unhealthy decisions for
myself for my mental health.
And, and needed to, again,that's where I came full circle

(52:01):
to back to a place of being ableto do that, again, walk away
from a business walk away from abad relationship regain myself
become a great mom, you know,the mom, I needed to be learned
where I, you know, where, why Istruggled with mom, because of
my lack of modeling,understanding my trauma and my
influence and then saying, okay,here's your second shot, you're

(52:22):
up to bat take a swing at it,and let's go for it. Yeah. But
yeah, it was hard. And I watcheda lot of, you know, a lot of ups
and downs around me, people inthe architecture community, you
know, that got laid off byhundreds in the Seattle area,
hundreds, and many of them wenton to be entrepreneurs, like
they found that as anopportunity to start over. But

(52:43):
you know, Seattle is one of thecommunities that has the highest
rates of suicide, you know, isit really? Yeah, it really is.
Some of it may actually be Imean, they've speculated that it
could just be because not justbecause I'm not going to
diminish it to that. But, youknow, sunshine and daylight
matters to our well being aswell. And this is one of those
communities where there isn't alot of it. But we also, you

(53:05):
know, pontificate like this is apassive aggressive community,
culturally, people don't speakup, they don't talk out. They
keep a lot to themselves. Youknow, it's not as kind of
direct. And you know, does it isthat a culture that's been
involved by the people who'vemoved here? Is it a culture
that's just arrived? You know,there are a lot of, you know,
mental health resources, thereare some therapists here, but

(53:27):
it's difficult to gettherapists, a lot of computer
programming up in this area. Sothat's on that list of one of
those job careers. You know, Imean, there's and, you know,
it's a blend of the, the ruralcommunity with the city
community, it's still very smallstate, you know, in terms of
like, you know, not a Californiaor Texas or New York, or, you
know, any of those places. But,yeah, Seattle, sadly, has, you

(53:50):
know, high rates, you know, as amunicipal area, so, I didn't
know that. Yeah. But, well, thishas been, I mean, this is a
great guy, this is anenlightening conversation, and I
you know, and to come out ofthis, to be able to understand,
you know, and to see really,where these breaks are, you
know, in these professionalcareers that that have a higher

(54:13):
incidences of this, of, youknow, the suicide rates and the
depression and, you know, likewe said, with their careers that
kill, I think this will bepretty enlightening for a lot of
people, you know, to be able to

Margaret Rutherford (54:26):
really hope so, you know, one of the
directions of my own podcast Iopen every, every episode with
this kind of greeting, which is,you know, I'm trying to reach
those of you might already beinterested in psychological
issues, maybe you're in therapythat are those of you who just
been diagnosed with somethingyou're looking for answers, but
also for those of you who tellyour friends kind of laughing

(54:48):
you I'd never darken the door.
One of those crazy people. Yeah.
But shrinks? Yeah, yeah, they'reshrinks. But you know, you're
just curious enough or unhappyenough to listen and is actually
been quite meaningful to get anemail every month or six weeks
to say I was one of thosepeople. And now you know,

(55:11):
because your language is justvery direct and you know, no
nonsense and kind of, you know,use analogies like getting the
rock out of your shoe instead ofthe psychoanalytic approach to
this problem is and it's justkind of, that's what we're we're
going for is to try to makethings accessible. So to make

(55:32):
mental health accessible, andand I appreciate you having me
on and then I can do that here.
And I love your work. I mean,I've I was so thrilled when you
asked me to be this mightactually my third visit here,
guys,

Amee Quiriconi (55:44):
it is. Yep. So

Margaret Rutherford (55:46):
I was delighted. You're, you're smart,
and you're well read, and you'recaring and all those things. So
I've always learned from you.
And I'm delighted to be here.

Amee Quiriconi (55:55):
Oh, thank you so much. And the links to your
podcast for everybody that'slistening will be in the show
notes so you can get to it.
Great. I think that, you know,podcasts have been a fantastic
addition to mental healthawareness in the sense that it's
people can privately and safely,emotionally safely start to
explore mental health. Andnobody has to know you know, and
that's sometimes that's usuallythe first you know, thing that

(56:17):
somebody does you even buying abook, you know, is sitting on
the shelf somewhere thatsomebody else is about right.
So, podcasts, you put yourearbuds in and go on a walk, you
can go into drive, you can do itanywhere and you can start on
your tractor you can you know,be working on a job as an
electrician, you can do all thatstuff. Yeah, absolutely. And I
gotta tell you with an with a anArkansas accent that does make

(56:37):
it pretty relatable if you comefrom my accident. When I go back
home and visit back in myhometown, Yeah, boy, it slips
right back out again. Yeah,there you go. Awesome. Well,
Margaret, thank you so much forthis. I appreciate it. And so
like I said, anybody that wantsto check out Margaret's show and

(56:59):
listen, you can hear she's she'samazing. You care a lot too. And
that matters. And I'm glad thatyou and I are you know, we're
teamed up together now to beable to do good things for
people. So I am thanks so much.
Awesome.