August 1, 2021 • 54 mins
Women are disproportionately impacted by divorce when it comes to financial settlements. Many women end up in poverty following a divorce, especially mothers. Ameé speaks with a certified financial advisor and consultant, Rhonda Noordyk, to discusses the impact divorce has on women's finances and how to make better financial decisions when it comes to divorce.
Rhonda's organization, The Women's Financial Wellness Center, helps women gain confidence and protect them from financial vulnerability during the divorce process. Rhonda also had a podcast called Divorce Conversations for Women.
Resources:
https://www.wfwcdivorce.com/
Links to buy The Fearless Woman’s Guide to Starting a Business
Amazon (Audio, Print, Kindle Versions): https://amzn.to/3daO7nA
Barnes and Noble- https://bit.ly/FearlessWomansGuide
Bookshop- https://bit.ly/FearlessWomanBookshop
Visit https://www.ameequiriconi.com/ for more articles about self-help, healing from trauma, leadership, business, and more!
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Amee Quiriconi (00:01):
Hello everybody welcome back to the show I have
with me a guest, she and I hadan opportunity to have a casual
conversation as we got to knoweach other, we met through
another mutual friend too. Iknow through the business end of
my my life, which a lot ofpeople coming into one broken
Mom, you're starting to get aviewpoint of me from my my
business and entrepreneurshipbackground. I know for some of
(00:21):
you that have been on thejourney with me, if you didn't
already know me ahead of time.
You know, we've talked a lotabout trauma and adversity and,
and overcoming a lot and havingfrank conversations about mental
health. And in this, this yearcoming up, because there's a lot
really going on in our world asit relates to mental health and
our workplace. It is somethingthat has always been a passion
(00:42):
for me. And so these episodes inseason four have started to
integrate some of the challengesthat we experienced that we
think of only as personal, youknow, air quotes around that
word personal issues, and howthey actually leak into work,
how work actually influences andaffects them. So that we can
have pretty much a much moreholistic and balanced, you know,
viewpoint of our life and whatwe're doing and how we're
(01:03):
handling the challenges that wehave, and not just keeping them
in silos because we don't livein working in silos. So Rhonda
is actually the founder and CEOof the women's financial
wellness center, and sheactually has her own podcast,
which is called the divorceconversations for women. And
she's an accredited financialexpert who has gone through and
the experience and understandthat divorce is hard, it's
(01:25):
painful, but it actually isfinancially devastating for many
women. And so she had startedher own business and practice in
2014, to help women through thefinancial aspects and to gain
some financial wellness, throughtheir divorce and after that,
and and so I'm really excited tohave you on to talk with me
(01:45):
about this topic, because I havelived through three divorces.
not proud of that, but it isjust a part of my history. And I
feel like it's like theGoldilocks thing, you know, the
porridge was too hot, too cold,and just right. And my last one
was the too hot, like hot messbad. And so I feel this topic.
Personally, I've lived thistopic personally. And I know
that many women go through somechallenges with it. And so I'm
(02:09):
really excited to have you hereto talk with me about this.
Rhonda Noordyk (02:13):
Yes, absolutely.
Well, thank you so much forhaving me. You know, I think as
we just kick off our timetogether, I just want to say,
you know what, yes, our focusand area of expertise is
educating and empowering womenaround divorce. But you know, if
you're a guy, right, listeningto this, right, we have some
stuff for you, too. And women'sfinancial wellness center does
(02:33):
not hate men. We just want tobring some balance to the
conversation. And most of thewomen that we talked to are
feeling disempowered. So it'sjust I'm so glad that we're
having this conversation today.
Amee Quiriconi (02:46):
Right, thank you. Yeah. And so you know, I to
prepare for this. I mean, I getexcited, like, it's one thing to
have a lived experience of goingthrough divorce. And you know,
and understanding, depending onthe nature of the relationship,
the quality of the relationship,and really the the behavior and
personality of the partner thatyou're leaving or trying to
leave or they're leaving you,that happens in divorce too.
(03:07):
Like we're the like surprisedone, it does dictate the how the
process is going to go. Andwhether or not you come out of
it unscathed, emotionallydrained, bankrupt, you know, or
whatever. And so I wanted to, tokind of look into and support,
you know, our conversationtoday. And one of the studies
(03:27):
that I actually managed to find,and for everybody that's
listening, if you're interested,the link to the study will be in
the podcast notes, if you wantto nerd out on 40 pages of
research, I got it for you. Butthis one was called the gender
differences in the consequencesof divorce. And it was a study
of multiple outcomes. And sowhat this researcher actually
did, which a lot of researcherswill do, is instead of creating
their own study, they willactually go and gather all the
(03:49):
other studies, and they'llsynthesize the information
together and then see the, youknow, see the trends in the
studies that other people havedone. And so for people that
don't read research studies,that that's actually I think, is
a fantastic element of a peerreview, and seeing what other
people have done becausesometimes these independent
studies, I'll just get lost, andit takes people to pull them all
(04:09):
together and go, Oh, well, welook at 10 of these together.
This is why we also see like thetrend of the trends. Now this
one here, I'm looking at thegender differences. You know,
one of the things that he notedwas, first of all, men actually
appear to be more emotionallyimpacted negatively from divorce
than women. And I think that'srelevant to our conversation
(04:32):
today. That's why I want topoint that out. But on the other
end of the spectrum, is thatthere is a big difference in
disproportionate difference,though, for losses in household
income and increase a risk ofpoverty and single parenting for
women. So at one end of thedivorce spectrum, you see that
more men are emotionallyimpacted. And the result is on
(04:55):
the other end. The womenactually come out as the
financial losers in the wholething. And one of the things
that this gentleman study of a,but again, a bunch of other
research studies was that men'sdisproportionate impacts were
transient. That meant that afterthere was a recovery period and
emotional healing period, theywere fine. Women's or chronic,
(05:17):
starting off on the wrong footcoming out of divorce can be
devastating and take a longtime, if ever, you know, a
recovery period, it actuallyhappens. And so that's a bit
about why we are talking aboutthis, you know, in today, and
the factors that, you know, theresearch shows that contribute
to this possibly is, you know,when a woman is in a
(05:37):
relationship, and they have totake on the parenting role, they
actually have restricted accessto income. So the the, the bills
and everything were being paidby the, you know, the the earner
in the house, which tends to bethe man, they don't get enough,
sufficient child maintenance orchild support, when the divorce,
you know, happens, they thatloss of income doesn't get made
up in spousal maintenance. Andthen there's also the deficits
(06:01):
that come from just beinggendered and having your
specialization happened to bethe all the household stuff. And
so you're taking on all thisadditional burden and labor,
there's no time to go out and doanything else, or be compensated
for it. And so that can reallylead you into a you know, again,
a path of where it's verydifficult to make ends meet,
when you have the singleparenting responsibilities also
(06:23):
placed on you and you're notgetting enough financial
support. And, and I think thatthe reason I wanted to talk or
bring into the context of the ofthe men and the men suffering
from the emotional consequences,just imagine, for those of us
who've been through divorce,that if what we're seeing study
wise, is men having this, thisnegative consequences,
(06:45):
basically, let's just call itwhat it is being hurt by divorce
their partner, for whateverreason, leaving the sense of
abandonment that may be comingup and you know, boiling up
inside of them. You know, thisisn't an advocate or let's just
say this isn't saying that it'sokay that it happens. But when
we are hurt, we do hurtfulthings. And the tool that when
(07:08):
men have a position of powerover the finances and the
situation, their tool forgetting back or for you know,
for of displaying this hurt, cancome out in disproportionately
injuring their partner throughthe financial mechanisms that
they have available to them, I'mgoing to punish them for leaving
me, I'm going to punish them. Bytaking the money, I'm going to
cut them off from theirresources, whatever it all is,
(07:28):
right? I mean, we can throw allof that into this mix. And
sometimes it's true. Andsometimes it's not true. But I
do think that we understandthere are two humans trying to
separate their lives from eachother, and they're doing what
they can, and this is theexperience that I've had, is
that the divorce process can bea way of punishing your other
partner. You know, andunfortunately, because of what
(07:49):
we've seen so far, in cultureand society, there is a, you
know, supreme or extreme genderimbalance in terms of these
responsibilities in thesehouseholds and these
expectations. And so I think itis valid, that we have to look
at women, you know, differentlyhere, and maybe bring in the
context of, you know, just alittle bit of an understanding,
you know, of, you know, the menaren't on the other side all the
(08:12):
way, they're not abusive all thetime. Sometimes they are but
they're, they're humans that arehurt, right, and that the tool
we're using against this divorcehappens to be, you know, this
proceeding, so take that forwhatever you guys want, you
know, but I did want to makesure that, you know, we at least
had this depth of understanding,you know, as you and I talk
Rhonda about this. Yeah, sothoughts on that study, anything
(08:33):
jumped out to my
Rhonda Noordyk (08:33):
gosh, where do I even start, right? Like to? I
love these kinds of things,right? Because there were so
many things that you sent methat just really resonate with,
you know, what I have seen aswe've been working in this
space. And I think there's acouple things, right. I mean,
certainly there is the, youknow, gender conversation where
(08:54):
I feel like the divorce processfor such a long time has been
this imbalance of power. What'shappening though, with that is
women. So there's two things oneis, you know, you've got the
high income earner or the personwho's the breadwinner for the
family. And then you have youknow, somebody who's maybe
working part time or, you know,sometimes you have dual incomes,
(09:16):
but not always. And so when youhave this imbalance of income
coming in, it really can impacttheir view of the divorce
process, their view of you know,how things should shake out. And
I think psychologically, womenhave been in this spot where I
see them saying, well, I'll cutout X amount of things out of my
(09:37):
budget, I will not negotiate toget, you know, an increase in
salary. I will let him havewhatever he wants. He says it's
going to be amicable, you know,like, and so there's there's two
things going on. There's thedivorce process in and of
itself, that I think is becauseof history right has been still
(10:00):
has an imbalance of power. Andwe have definitely some work to
do there. On the flip side, I'mseeing women give away their
power, rather than fighting alittle bit. And when I say
fighting, I don't mean like,Hey, we're gonna show up and be
a be at the table, like, I mean,asking questions and advocating
and making sure that you've gotthe right team and not feeling
(10:20):
like you have to be the martyrto throw yourself under, you
know, and, and well, I have aclient right now who actually is
on SSDI, she's 40 years old. Andhopefully, she won't be on it
forever. But it's been atemporary thing where she does
have some money coming in fordisability, her husband's an
attorney, um, and basically, youknow, has convinced her that,
(10:41):
you know, she doesn't reallyneed a whole lot, right? And so
she's been getting, she's beengetting weekly treatments, IV
treatments of things. They'rejust really helped her get
through the week. $65 a week,right? She says to me, Randall,
when we're looking at my budget,I'm really just concerned and,
you know, I will, I'll justmaybe I'll only go twice a
(11:02):
month. For those treatments. I'mlike, Oh, no, no, no, your
husband just bought an Escaladeat $900 a month, you are not
going to cut back on thosethings that you need to make
sure that you're showing up inthe best way possible for your
kids, for the work that you needto be doing right, like no. And
so I have been frustrated,right? Because I think, again,
(11:24):
there's so many differentdynamics that are going on with
this. I do see on the back end,a lot of the study showing that
the quality of life, thestandard of living for women
after divorce drops 41%, afterthe divorce is over. So then the
question becomes, how do we makesure that the divorce process in
and of itself, that women arehaving a voice, that they're
(11:47):
running the numbers so that theyknow, right? Where things should
land after? Because wide, right,I just want to get this done, I
get it. But at what expense. AndI was on a see, you know, course
with some other divorceprofessionals, and there was an
attorney in New Jersey. And hesaid, Rhonda, you know, it's up
(12:08):
to the client if they take a baddeal. And I said, here's the
scoop, if we're working with anindividual, right, and they have
all of the information. And, youknow, they understand the
consequences of their decisionfully. And then they make a
decision. Are they really makinga bad decision? Or are they
(12:29):
making an informed decision forthemselves? And if we can do
that, right, if we can helpwomen understand what some of
these things mean? It certainlycan be impactful. And to your
point about, you know, them, themen being hurt. Yeah, they deal
with emotions differently. So Sowhat Rhonda, why do you work
with women's financial wellnesscenter, because when I first
(12:50):
started my business, I waspassionate about helping women.
And secondly, the other part ofit is that men are going to go
to a retreat and sit around andtalk about their finances, you
know, their finances and theirfeelings and all that kind of
stuff, right? what they're goingto do is they're going to
internalize, they're going tothey're going to go inward,
they're not going to talk aboutit. I mean, there was a, there
was a guy that I had done apresentation with several years
(13:13):
ago, he had gone throughdivorce, he was in the military,
and nobody knew he was goingthrough divorce. Three years
later, he shows up at a functionwith another woman. And they're
like, he's like,Oh, you guys didn't know like,
because he's not talking aboutit. He shows up at work, he
focuses on his thing, he triesto not really, you know, deal
(13:33):
with the emotional part of it.
And it's just, it's just aninvestment, whereas women, on
the flip side, right, they'reprobably going to work and you
probably know something's upthere, maybe you're talking
about it, they're looking forsupport they want you know, so
it's just there's so manydifferent dynamics, but I love
that study and can't wait, Iwill probably nerd out on the 40
(13:56):
pages. Yeah, it's
Amee Quiriconi (13:59):
pretty fun. It's pretty fascinating. And like I
said, you know, the context, Ithink, is is important for this
conversation again, because itlike I'd mentioned to you and I
know, the listeners are outthere, you know, everybody
that's out here in thecommunity, I know that it's like
half and half, you know, andmaybe some other percentages for
you know, non binary. But the,the, when we can kind of bring
(14:22):
in and understand, like we cansee everybody's positions from
an it doesn't make any of itvalid or you know, nice, you
know, to be manipulative andcontrolling. But unfortunately,
the other you know, the otherside of this coin is like you
that brought up many times,which is that, you know, women
by, by nature, not and I don'tmean that as an we're born this
way, I mean we are groomed intothis, you know, our, our
(14:45):
personality, our role in life,our role in relationship is, you
know, really to be the caretakerof you know, again, that's what
we're talking about this genderstereotype that says that women
are the ones in charge of therelationships and maintaining
The connection and therefore theones that have to sacrifice
themselves. That is the standardthat we've set for how women
(15:06):
behave in relationships. Andactually, unfortunately, it
shows up and how they behave atwork sometimes, too. I mean,
this context of like, you know,being able to create value or or
feel value, like it do what Ido, is it worth anything? Do I
need to make a sacrifice? I seeit all the time in business with
women and salaries and chargingfor services. Yeah. And so
that's the, you know, that's thebig umbrella that comes into
this is, am I actually worthmore? How do I communicate
(15:29):
assertively? Absolutely, I needmore and not come off as mean,
or, and I've been option one to,you know, to cold, where you
know, and that was my firstdivorce, I actually was the
breadwinner, I felt bad that Ididn't want to be married to
this guy anymore. And so I gavehim all of my furniture. I mean,
I pat, you know, I had to sendhim packing, I kept the house,
(15:50):
but I, like just said, Takeeverything I can, I've got the
means in the way to buy morestuff. And of course, people
were like, do you really want todo that? And I did exactly what
you said, I just want this overwith. And and I felt guilt, you
know, and so the woman who feelsguilty or bad about the
relationship gives it away, youknow? Well,
Rhonda Noordyk (16:09):
and can we talk about that for a second, right?
Because that's exactly the stuffthat I'm seeing, right. So then
you have where there the roleshave been reversed within a
household, and one of them isstaying home. And, and one of
them is, you know, workingright. And if the woman is
working, I have several, youknow, women who are in really
significant positions of power,career wise. And the husband
(16:33):
either is doing something he youknow, enjoy some more more of
like a hobby or he's home,right. And in these divorces,
the women do, they are like theygive more away, then they would
ever by the court be required togive away. And secondly, they're
more giving way more than theirmale colleagues would ever give
(16:53):
away without a fight. And that'sthe dynamic that I'm seeing,
like, why is this happening? Andyou know what, I think there's
so much though, to around theattorney aspect of it, because,
you know, the attorneys are,like, one of my clients was
relocating from Wisconsin to NewYork, she took another position.
And her husband's attorney wasadvocating that he meaning the
(17:17):
husband should get a relocationfee of $150,000 to New York.
Amee Quiriconi (17:23):
Wow, I would love a relocation fee of
$150,000.
Rhonda Noordyk (17:27):
Well, and and first of all, right, like no
money, it doesn't evennecessarily matter what the
dollar amount is, I, in orderfor my clients, like I would
have to, we would have to fightso hard to get them to do
anything above and beyond thebasic statutory aspects of
maintenance or support. Now,we've been able to do it. And
(17:48):
I've been able to advocate forclients that that really did end
up in a better spot, not at theexpense of their spouse, were
getting them to where theyprobably should have been, which
was an equitable distribution ofthe marital property, and a good
amount of maintenance andsupport, right for the duration.
(18:09):
But all that stuff issubjective. All I mean, and
people will say, well, Rhonda,you know, what about the marital
property states? I mean, it's,it's 5050 5050. Right? So why
5050 is your best day? You know,and, and so it's no, but again,
it's knowing what questions toask. It's knowing who the right
(18:31):
people are, you know, for thefor the attorney component, I
always say if people have threekey areas, you know, as they're
going through the process, theywill fare better through the
process, emotionally,financially, and legally. And
that is, you know, working witha therapist or a mental health
professional, working with afinancial expert who specializes
(18:51):
in working with divorces, and anattorney that really understands
the nuances of the divorce. AndI think that's the hardest part
on the legal side, is findingthe right attorney, because
you're like, Oh, well, thisattorneys, you know, they said
all the right things, and, youknow, they're the super lawyer
for the 25th year in a row. Andyet, you know, we work with
(19:12):
attorneys, and I see behind thescenes, how do they handle
stress? Are they respectful totheir clients? Did they
communicate, you know, in atimely fashion? Are they
bullying them? Are they youknow, all the things right? And
that's the real value that Iknow we're able to provide for
our clients. Is that insidebehind the scenes situation that
(19:33):
you just the normal consumerwould not know. I mean, there's
a there's an attorney that thatunfortunately, there's going to
be some some real challenges andand what I mean by that is, this
is this is an attorney who itcame forth from one of my
clients that he was sexuallyharassing her. Yeah, and it will
(19:55):
end and what's happening now issince that time, that name has
come up multiple All timesincluding a meeting I had this
morning with somebody who wasworking on a project for me. And
he used she used him as herattorney. This is now the sixth
time that I've heard that he issexually harassed these women.
And we're working with I havesomebody at the at the bar
(20:18):
association on the on thecommittee, and I've engaged him
to say, Listen, this is just notokay. And nobody had not, nobody
has really been thewhistleblower on, you know, this
kind of stuff. Now, is itdirectly related to the cases?
We could argue Yes, or no,probably. But it is. It is.
Because you know, what he'susing his influence in this
(20:39):
situation? The women are feelingintimidated by him. He's like,
you know, you made a baddecision. What are you doing?
And they're like, Well,whatever, like, I don't know.
And, you know, and so then theiroutcomes are awful. Because
they're not feeling empowered toask the right questions.
Amee Quiriconi (20:55):
Mm hmm. Yeah, I mean, and that brings up how
important the mental healthsupport through divorce really
is. And honestly, because at theend of the day, these decisions
are all emotional decisions. Imean, really, they are and like,
in for, you know, the work thatyou do, and having somebody like
you on the team allows you theemotional, you know, cut off, so
(21:15):
that, you know, things can belooked at, and at least you
know, at you as an anchor, pullthem back towards, you know,
some reregulated state of makinga decision that isn't based on
you know, emotion because itdoes not matter. There's nothing
unemotional. And in fact, goodattorneys will constantly try to
drive the conversations to theemotional level, because if
they're smart aboutneuroscience, they know that if
(21:37):
they can push this to anemotional level, then you're
talking about not usingexecutive functioning skills of
your brain making, makingconscious decisions, you're
making emotional decisions. AndI've dealt with that. sitting
through a mediation with anattorney on the other side, who
had her degree in neuroscience,and I knew her game before I
came into it. And anytime shecould keep pushing it to go down
or to like trigger traumatizewhatever it was, once it's done,
(22:01):
you say you do you give up you,you fight back? You look, you
look bad. I mean, I'll just putthat like, you know, if you get
triggered, and you look likeyou're overemotional in the
process. And then it doesn't,it's not like you walk away, and
it's all good. And that's whyyou and I were going to talk
about like, it bleeds out intothe other places of our lives,
you know, it bleeds out into thework environment, you know,
Rhonda Noordyk (22:23):
well, and I, you know, when you and I were
talking offline, right, I said,You know, I think there's so
much to this, and it's the thegravity of these situations is
so big, like, you know, makingsure that the attorneys fully
understand not only theemotional component, but the
trauma, like there are so manywomen that that these high
(22:44):
conflict situations, honestly,the court systems are terrible
at knowing how to deal withthose, and the attorneys aren't
far behind it. And it's notbecause they don't necessarily
want to. It's a training gap.
It's an understanding gap. It'sa awareness gap, right? When you
have a client who is perceivedas you know, high maintenance,
usually it's because there'strauma that's happened. She
(23:06):
doesn't feel like she's beinglistened to. The guardian ad
litem isn't listening, ifthey've been, I mean, there's
just all these pieces. And, youknow, it is challenging because
for us, like, we have a coachingcomponent as we're helping
navigate through the process andmanage expectations and teach
women how to set boundaries andassertive communication and all
(23:28):
the things. And, and yes,there's a financial piece to it,
but we're not attorneys, right.
So so we're working in a systemthat is we're running up the
down escalator every single day.
And, and it's it's exhausting,and rewarding, and all the
things right, um, but I'll tellyou what I mean, that I was, I
(23:50):
was reflecting on a couplethings. And you know, last week,
he, you know, I've been doingthis particular work for seven
years. And last week, Iliterally probably had the first
official meltdown, I think thatI've had, I mean, I get
emotional with my clients. I'lltear up when I feel like and i
and i understand how they'refeeling like this system is, you
know, in just, and I have a realheart for justice, right. But it
(24:14):
was hard, because I think thatthe hardest part of what I do is
when I see people give up theirpower, and give up. And it's
it's so that's of all the stuffthat I do is the most
challenging. And so I think ifwe can, you know, if we can
empower people to ask goodquestions, and it kind of leads
(24:35):
into where you were leadingwith, you know, yes, it bleeds
into other areas. And I did apresentation for a rotary group.
This was probably five yearsago. And I was in a room of a
lot of leaders within thecommunity. Women and men alike,
right. And there were a coupleguys in there that were like
(24:56):
I've been married for 25 years.
And whatever this topic doesn'tapply to me and, you know,
whatever. And, and I kind ofaddressed it in the beginning,
because I could sense that therewas some, some sense of
hesitation or dismissal of theimportance of this topic. And I
kicked off our my presentationby saying, I'm so glad that you
(25:18):
as leaders are here. And I couldsay the same thing about the
people that are listening tothis episode, like, We're so
glad that you're here listeningto it, right. And if you're
here, and you have a sense ofinfluence in your company, in
your community, in your family,right, you therefore have some
sense of responsibility to beaware of these things, and an
(25:39):
opportunity to be able toinfluence and impact people's
lives. Right. And so the, thething that you and I had chatted
about was this study, marriageand family study, you know, from
10 plus years ago. And what Ifound, as I was reading that
study, was, this is interesting,because the impact that divorce
(26:02):
is having isn't just impactingfamilies and friends, and social
calendars, it's impactingcorporate, it's impacting
businesses. And yeah, I mean,I'd love to just spend a couple
of moments and share with you.
Amee Quiriconi (26:17):
Yeah, that's, and that's what I want to see.
Because, you know, like you hadsaid at the beginning here, not
everybody talks about thedivorce, right? Especially if
they, if they happen to be men,it's something that could be a
sore spot, or again, and Iaddressed men's mental health on
the show a lot. Men alsobecause, again, the gender
stereotypes that hurt women,they also hurt men, because men
(26:39):
are given, you know, call it theopposite or different stories,
especially when it comes toemotional relationships and
connections. And those hurt themtoo. So when they're isolated,
and they can't get support whenthey need it, that hurts and and
you know, women, on the otherhand, maybe can reach out for
support, but but not all thetime. So you know, this is
happening in companieseverywhere more than people
(27:00):
probably would think orunderstand and an impact. And so
yes, please, let's start tolet's dig into what you had
found and what you'd read andshared.
Rhonda Noordyk (27:08):
Yeah. So we can unpack this a little bit. So I
want to I want to just kind oftake everybody to I read this,
this, this research report. AndI was sitting at my desk, and I
was looking at the case studyaround this, this research. And
so I kind of went through theexercise to kind of evaluate
what I'm going to be sharing.
And I literally put my head downon the desk. And I was like,
This is such a big issue. Likehow do we address this? Right.
(27:31):
And the study was talking aboutthe impact that divorce has on
workplace productivity. And I'vehad several conversations with
people and human resources,leadership positions, right?
Where they say, we know thatsomething is going on, we don't
know what it is. Or maybe we do,we don't know how to approach
it. We're feeling like, youknow, we don't want to overstep
(27:52):
our bounds. But we really wantto be able to let people know
that we're supporting them, youknow, and I so I think what ends
up happening is people saynothing, because they don't know
what to say. And I said, youknow, you could say something as
simple as you know, how are youdoing today? It looks like
you're maybe going through achallenging time. Is there
anything that I could do tosupport you or help you? I mean,
again, like, it sounds so basic,right? But, but we get those
(28:15):
ones are like, I don't know whatto say is I'm not gonna say
anything. I don't want to offendanybody. I'm not sure, like,
just genuinely show up with aquestion of compassion. Like,
let's just start there, right?
And if you ask them, How are youdoing today? Or, you know, is
there anything I can do tosupport you and they start
crying, then now you've maybeopened the door? Right? This
(28:39):
study was?
Amee Quiriconi (28:41):
No, no, no, no, no, I was gonna say I was gonna
say that that came up in anotherconversation that I had that you
know, that you bring up thatsometimes people just don't know
how to broach something thatseems so deeply personal and
emotional at work, you know, weknow how to ask our friends, you
know, if everything's going on,but we definitely have, you
know, the, you know, there's aboundary at work, this
professionalism, that peoplereally, and that's that wall,
(29:03):
you know, to be able to breakthrough there that it doesn't
have to be like, you don't haveto open up a can of worms or
whatever you think is gonnahappen. But just a question of,
what are you doing? Okay, like,I'm here. You want to talk about
it? Yeah. You don't just let Ijust want to validate you, I see
you. And I see that there'ssomething happening for you. And
that can be supportive to peopleto have that recognition.
Rhonda Noordyk (29:26):
I have goosebumps with that. Because
that's that's really the heartof where we're coming, you know,
with this conversation, right,is we don't have to have all the
answers. We just need to showsome Yeah, genuinely validation,
kindness, compassion, care forother people, right. Because
divorce, as we know, right upthere with death, right? Death,
(29:48):
divorce, loss of a job, andillness top stressors. So it is
impacting people's lives andthey're not just leaving it at
the door, you know? So thisstudy basically I was talking
about the impact that divorcehas on workplace productivity.
And, and the reason that Istarted looking for this was
because I had a woman walk intomy office one day, and she's
(30:10):
like, Rhonda, this whole divorcething is an open purse. Like, I
just keep spending more money, Iam so frustrated, I've been
married for 25 years, I've beenworking for the same company for
25 years, I love my job, I feellike I'm struggling to show up
and be present. And I've had toget a second job in addition to
that, just to pay for the legalfees. And I could just see this,
(30:32):
like internal struggle, right.
So what what the study wasshowing, and I have seen this in
my clients as well. So thenumbers while they initially
seemed high, I've been able tovalidate those, okay, so
basically, if the impact of theperson the individual is going
through divorce is 50%, half ofthe time, that they should be
(30:53):
focused on work, they'refocusing on either in their
head, worrying about aconversation that happened last
night, worrying about theirsafety, getting a text message,
getting an email, getting aphone call, having to reach out
to their attorney, thinkingworrying about the finances, not
getting sleep, etc, etc. Right?
So all those things swirlingaround, and then we're supposed
(31:13):
to just like, okay, and I'mfocused at work like, No, that
doesn't happen. So 50%, right.
So this case study was showing,okay, if we take a, an income
range for a specific position,let's say, and we say, okay,
half of that, half of that isbeing impacted on productivity.
And then we look at the nextlayer in this kind of like
(31:37):
Target, which is the out thenext layer would be the people
in their circle. So theircolleagues, the people that
they're interacting with on amore regular basis, and the
impact of those individuals wasabout three to 5% on their
productivity, so not definitelynot anywhere near the person
that's going. And to your point,it would be so easy for them to
(31:59):
have the blinders on. And notsay anything, right, because
it's not really impacting themat the degree that is impacting
the individual going through it.
So then we have the next layer,which is the 1% impact for the
supervisors, the trainers, theleaders within the organization.
And again, it's, you know, it'sit's maybe just a little bit of
(32:21):
a problem, right for theirproductivity, but not nearly the
impact. So then what we have asthe people that are the key
decision makers, are the onesthat aren't really being as
impacted by it, that are makingthe decisions on do we address
this or not? Do we provideresources, you know, for our
employees or not around this.
And I just think that's kind offascinating. And then you've got
(32:43):
the people that they are, youknow, the three to 5% that are
frustrated, because theindividual isn't maybe as
present the workloads falling onthem, they're around the
watercooler or on the chat orwhatever, you know, whatever
that looks like complaining,because they're frustrated, you
know. And so when I went throughthat, right, we just kind of had
(33:03):
this ripple effect of thedollars and cents bottom line
for the company. It was, it wasabsolutely unbelievable to me.
So we're talking probably abouta 70 total of after with the
compounding, right, close to 75%impact. So if you're spending,
you know, $100,000 on anemployee, you're only getting
about 25%. Productivity out ofthat specific situation. Yeah,
(33:28):
and I don't want it to just beabout the money part. But it is
impacting the company. So whatdo we do about that?
Amee Quiriconi (33:39):
Right? Well, in it, you know, and money speaks
to business leaders, right?
Because there's a bottom lineand get your, your, your ROI on
that. But, you know, the otherthing to think about, it's like,
it doesn't have to just be likean office person $100,000 your
person, I mean, think about, youknow, absenteeism as a part of
what that looks like, it doesn'tmean that they don't just show
up and they're not focused ontheir work or hitting their
(34:00):
deadlines or anything like that.
They're not coming to work atall, their health is declining.
You know, and I and I thinkabout and again, I go back to my
personal experience goingthrough a divorce with an
abuser, there is no good day.
No, no, you know, every victoryhas a backlight to it. I mean,
it is it is hard. And I part ofmy support system. In fact, my
(34:21):
you know, aside from one friend,the only other support system I
had, because my community was Icut off my community because
just to be able to get away fromthe abuser and the network. I
mean, you lose all your friends,you know, if you had shared
friends, you know, you just haveto like go through a complete
cut off. And the only supportnetwork I had was the people at
(34:42):
work and I am so grateful forthe people that I had around me,
but we spent some time talkingabout my problem, you know, and
and it was a company culturethat that was okay. But there
was definitely, you know, therewas a decline, you know, the
hours spent You know that I wascrying or having to leave or
take a call with an attorney oryou know, go to whatever kind of
(35:03):
meeting or whatever I mean, allthat stuff like I'm not I'm
definitely not at my best. And,and then the stress on top of
that of the financialconsequences like I feel that
person of like, you know itcost. And I got a discount
because my attorneys I had twolawyers, a business lawyer and a
divorce attorney, because I wasunraveling businesses real
estate. And the only way I couldget the divorce was I had to use
(35:26):
the Washington State law thattreated our relationship as a
meretricious relationship,because we never actually got
married. So and that was the wayof trying to get out of having
to pay me any compensation,right, or my shares. So I had to
bring in a divorce lawyer, andall done it was 10s of 10s of
1000s of dollars that I did nothave while I was trying to
(35:50):
support myself and two kids, andyou know, so there's, you know,
it, it's a huge, like, I know,what it was like to be that
person and to show up, and Iknow what it was like to have
the support of a company thatcould be there and help it. And,
and if I had not had it, I amnot entirely sure. what life
would have been like withoutthat. I mean, to be, you know,
(36:13):
like it just right. Yeah, Imean, and that's, you know, and
for leaders, you know, it is ayou know, if they're not greatly
impacted by it. And again, thethe idea that, you know, divorce
is a personal issue, and weshould stay out of it, and it's
not our deal. And you know, andI don't understand, and
especially, I think that when wetake the we go back to the
(36:33):
beginning, the top of this talkabout how men have been
socialized to view challenges inone way, and women in another
way, you know, if you're dealingwith a leadership that may be
very male, heavy, they may notunderstand, they might just want
you to suck it up and deal withit on your own. You know, what I
mean? And not make it a problemat work, figure it out? You
(36:56):
know, and that's, you know, it'snot, it's not productive, nor is
it, you know, humanly possible,you know, to do that,
Rhonda Noordyk (37:05):
no, and I think men are better at doing that,
right, put it in the box, but atthe shell, you know, on the
shelf, it's not to say that itisn't there. But again, women
right are going to show up andwe can't, we can't separate
those as as easily maybe, as youknow, our male counterparts can.
And so either we deal with it,and provide support, like your
(37:26):
company did for you, or womenare just going to be silently
suffering, and it is still goingto impact them. Like it's either
we it's not whether or not weaddress it, it's still in it's
still there.
Amee Quiriconi (37:36):
I know. That's what I always say is like you
can believe traumas not at work,but it's still there. Yeah, and
I'll change you know, and I'lleven say to this about, you
know, men do a better job, Iactually, I think they do a
different job. Because when I goback to suicide rates are the
highest with middle aged men, wealready know the studies support
the fact that men are greatlyemotionally impacted. It may not
(37:57):
show up at work, but it bleedsout in another part of their
life. Absolutely. Oh, you know,if they can keep it siloed and
out of the work life, it doesn'tmean they're handling. And as a
business leader, I think youneed to be aware of that as
well. Like, it may not be ontheir productivity, but it's
hurting them in another placewill eventually, you know, hurt
you or your company or thepeople or you know, and if you
(38:19):
care about people, then, youknow, they may not show up, but
I still think it's there. So Ijust wanted to add that into it.
Because, yeah, obviously,divorce hurts us all. So yeah,
Rhonda Noordyk (38:30):
absolutely.
Well, and I think the otherthing that I was thinking of
too, is, you know, the averagedivorce is 52 weeks, that's an
entire year, you know, andthat's from when you just start
the process. So I mean, there'sall the stuff leading up to it.
And then there's the processitself. And then there's on the
back end. But you know, we'veworked with several companies
where they've actually hired usto be able to help their
(38:52):
employees. And what we did withthem, was we were first of all
flexible enough to say, listen,let's set aside time over lunch,
or let's set aside time afternormal business hours, because
divorce isn't a nine to fivething. And if we can carve out a
little bit of time, and you knowthat you've got somebody who's
going to deal with your concernsand questions, let's
compartmentalize that and dealwith it at this time. And it was
(39:14):
a it was really an effectivestrategy for our clients because
they didn't then feel like theyhad to spend the time that they
were supposed to be workingthinking to try to solve the
problem, which was really thisWhat if scenario that wasn't
really productive anyways, andso so that was the first you
know, that was the first thingum, but the companies that we
had worked with really saw thevalue in the fact that it was
(39:36):
impacting, you know them andthey said, Okay, if we can
invest in our employees, if wecan provide them with
essentially divorce education,right and support, they're going
to be in a better spot. And bythe way, they're going to be
able to not only be moreproductive, but they're also
maybe not going to leave. Sothat's a whole nother issue
(39:57):
because When I'm helping womennavigate through on the
budgeting side, we're taking alook at income and expenses. And
we're saying, Okay, well, here'swhat you have coming in from
your job. Here's what you may behaving coming in from support,
right? Here's the gap. So how dowe fill the gap? Well, we either
go back and we ask for more,most of the time child supports
(40:17):
a statutory calculation, it iswhat it is. So the flexibility
would be on the alimony ormaintenance payments. Okay, so
we can advocate for that we'vebeen able to move the needle so
that that's an area that wecould do, depending on the
state, but the real gap is inthe income. So now we've got the
income gaps for women coupledwith, you know, them leaving
these situations. So we've beenable to actually coach women on,
(40:41):
hey, what if you could actuallyask
Unknown (40:45):
for a raise,
Rhonda Noordyk (40:46):
which sounds counterproductive, I'm going
through this really challengingtime, I'm already maybe feeling
like, I'm not totally, you know,productive as much as I could
be. And yet, I'm going to beasking for a raise. But the
reason they were able to do thatwas because we were coaching
them on showing up. The thecompany saw that the women were
more confident that they wereable to handle their, you know,
(41:09):
responsibilities. And they alsoknew that this person is
valuable. And they happenvaluable, and they're just going
through something reallychallenging. But if we can keep
them, we're not going to have toreplace them. What's the cost of
that? And so we have taughtwomen how to negotiate those
salaries, and it's worked everysingle time. And it's been
(41:29):
awesome to see that. So I don'tknow, do we have time for me to
just share this acronym reallyquickly?
Amee Quiriconi (41:34):
Yeah, absolutely, please. Okay,
Rhonda Noordyk (41:36):
so the acronym that we use to help women
negotiate is called a knot. Andit's a and o t. And basically,
how it works is I'll telleverybody what the letters stand
for, and then I'll explain it.
So the a is acknowledge the N isnaturally the O is obviously and
the T is the ask, okay? So, sothe acknowledgement is, you
(42:04):
know, having those conversationswith the decision makers to say,
Listen, I just want to thank youso much for the opportunity to
be part of this culture to beable to work here for you know,
this many years, whatever Ivalue, not only what I'm able to
contribute, but what you guysare doing whatever, right, so
just a genuine acknowledgementof gratitude. The naturally is
naturally just acknowledgingthat people as much as they want
(42:27):
to think about other peoplethere, they do human beings
think about themselves, right?
So naturally, I fill in theblank, okay, so naturally, I
want to be able to continue towork here to continue to be able
to, you know, show up and do agood job to continue to support
my family or whatever, right. Sowe just acknowledge the
naturally I and obviously, rightis, obviously you meaning the
(42:51):
company. So obviously, you needto, you know, stay within your
budget range, a healthy rangefor, you know, salaries,
obviously, you know, you need tomake sure that you're, you know,
have the long term projectionsin play. So whatever it is,
right, and then the asked couldbe, it doesn't necessarily mean
(43:13):
that the that it's like, weasked right away for the race,
sometimes that's Hey, the Askcould be, can we have a
conversation around, you know,my career path here? Can we have
a conversation around exploringif there are some opportunities
for increased responsibility orincome? Or could we evaluate the
fact that I have been doing topeople's jobs, because, you
(43:34):
know, we eliminated thatposition, and there wasn't any
compensation for taking on thoseadditional responsibilities. So
we can tee up a futureconversation. If it makes sense,
we could say, Hey, listen, canwe talk about, you know,
increasing the compensation, butmost of the time, people are
going to feel a little bit likeRhonda, that just feels a little
too direct. Okay, then let'sjust tee up the conversation.
(43:55):
And it's worked. It's workedevery single time. And, um, I
think that's a way for women.
Again, it goes back to how do wenot give up our power? We ask,
we asked, right,
Amee Quiriconi (44:07):
which is not I mean, it is honestly, it is. And
I know there are men out therethat feel that too. But I mean,
again, study after study, youknow, it shows that women just
have lower levels ofentitlement, you know, and
that's, that is a taught learnedbehavior that we just keep
propagating and promoting overand over again, and this is how
we break those as we change theway we message and communicate
(44:29):
and model for our children are,you know, our boys and girls and
everyone, and then we start toas adults, practice undoing it
by taking on, you know,something that feels
uncomfortable and, and workingthrough the discomfort and it's
hard to do that alone. That'swhy you and I are talking about
it. That's why I do the showthat I do. That's why I work
(44:50):
with businesses and individuals.
It is not easy to do on yourown. And that's why support
systems are vital. You know, andthere's and i and i love that. I
mean, I That's a great way to beable to provide a burly easy,
how easy it is to be assertive.
And to acknowledge bothpositions yourself and the other
person, it's a validating way ofapproaching it. And I was gonna
(45:12):
ask you what the T stands for.
But now you said it's t up,right? Like it either. Next
conversation, but you'd at leastget the you know, you get it
going there. And I think that'samazing. Um, well, you know, I,
I appreciate, you know that youhave this. And so let's talk
about if anybody's beenlistening to this. And they're
like, Oh, dear God, I've got togo work with Rhonda and hear it.
Like, let's talk about theexperience. And how does
(45:33):
somebody come to you? And whatdoes it look like for you like,
because I can see, like, we justtalked about how women can be,
you know, in a weak positionfinancially, the last thing they
can think about is payinganother person to join the
divorce team. You know, you knowwhat I mean? I'm just feel I'm
absolutely there. So what is itlike? How do you come in? And
how do you support these womenthat absolutely needed this
(45:55):
additional help of getting theirpower and not being bankrupted?
At the end of all of it?
Rhonda Noordyk (46:01):
Yeah, absolutely. Well, there's a
couple of things. So one of thethings that we've been able to
notice over the last seven yearsin doing this work is a couple
things. One is that whatever arethe initial investment is with
women's financial wellnesscenter, women are getting a 10
times return on their investmenton the back end, at least, I
mean, usually it's multiples ofthat, but at bare minimum, a 10
(46:24):
times return on theirinvestment. The second thing is
we're able to reduce the amountof attorney fees by up to 50%.
And the reason for that isbecause first of all, we're
selecting the right tourney'sright out of the gate, ones that
understand the value of workingtogether as a team, ones that
are open to streamlining theirprocesses, the ones that are you
(46:44):
know, all the things right. Andso their overall fees for
divorce are up to 50% less, it'shuge. Because we make sure stuff
gets done, like that sounds socrazy, but like, it's stuff that
should be happening and womenknowing what's going on, rather
than calling their attorney andspending all this time on the
phone, trying to figure outwhat's going on, when we've
(47:06):
already been doing that, youknow, so my approach is always
very proactive to say, what'snext, let's get through this
point, then this, then we'regoing to do this, then we're
going to do this, then we'regoing to do this. And the reason
that we're able to get them abetter outcome on the back end
is because we also have a teamof people that are working with
us mortgage brokers, so expertson real estate, experts on
mortgages, experts on taxes,experts on you know, mental
(47:29):
health, we have all the people.
And so then it's our job toactually not only help with the
financial aspects, but pull inthe right people at the right
time. So that they that ourclients understand that piece.
So we're either working withwomen individually, to be able
to help advocate for them.
Sometimes we're behind thescenes that people don't even
know we're working with them.
Sometimes we're in the meetingsas an advocate and a financial
(47:51):
expert client facing. We canalso do expert witness
testimonies and stuff like that.
So the level in which we canparticipate is huge. Those are
usually for litigated caseswhere they have attorneys. And
then we also are doingmediations where that can look
at two different ways. One iswe're working again with the
(48:11):
woman behind the scene, or theindividual behind the scenes as
their secret weapon. Or we'repart of the team working with
the husband and wife together asmore of a financial neutral
position. And the reason forthat was because women were
reaching out saying, I reallythink that genuinely speaking
there, there isn't narcissism,there. I mean, there's hurt,
(48:32):
right, but there is there's notthese extra layers of high
conflict. We really think wecould work it out. Great, then
let's start there. And so we canbe a really important asset. So
we're helping with budgeting,we're helping review property
divisions, we're helping reviewcalculations for support. We're
helping advocate, we're helpingnegotiate, and we're helping
make sure that everything isdone in the best way and the
(48:54):
right way, you know, possible.
And it's not to say that theattorneys are not necessarily
doing that, but they're the lensin which they're looking at this
is from the legal lens only.
We're looking at it from thefinancial perspective, short
term, what's happening now? Howdo we get through the divorce
process? And then where are wegoing? And I think that's the
part that's often missing is
Amee Quiriconi (49:13):
the impact.
That's what I was gonna say is,you know, get you know, a lawyer
is to get you through the hereand now and, and what you're
talking about, and that's andthat's how we end up getting
trapped, you know, into thischronic situation is that we
have foreshortened our futureview of what's going to happen
in one year from now and 12months from now you know, all
the things that actually are tosustain ourselves and and
(49:34):
because we're feeling the painof the here and now and we're
feeling the high the emotionshere and now of course we're
making you know, thoughts anddecisions. You don't do long
range planning when you're understress. That is a that's a
that's a brain thing rightthere. You were not you were
thinking about I need to get outright now right now right now
safety. Right. And so what withyou coming in and seeing this
(49:56):
and being able to be that longterm view for Somebody i think
is, you know, I think Well, Imean, obviously has an impact on
the people that you've workedwith right now. But again, too
many women end up in poverty.
You know, the year after myseparation, as I was going
through divorce, my tax returnswill tell you $30,000 in income,
(50:16):
that's what I made, because Ileft a situation in which my I
was, you know, a part of abusiness. And I got cut off from
all of that. And I was a singlemom with two kids on $30,000 a
year, folks, that does not work,thank God, that kid's dad
actually paid his portion oftheir child support that we had.
But it's been a long haul tocome back from from that. And
(50:36):
there are many women that thatdon't, you know, and that's
devastating. I mean, it's trulydevastating. Yeah. So before we
go, then I'm working withbusinesses and some advice for
leaders out there. So we've gotsome of them listening into
this. They're they're probablygoing oh, my God, I've got these
women now coming in asking mefor raises, you know, but
really, what do we want acompany culture to bring in and
(50:59):
understand and adopt when itcomes to seeing like divorces
prevalent? Like it's in there,it's in, you know, all of your
employees in some form oranother? So what would you What
would you tell business leadersto what they could do to help
support this so that it actuallyhas a better outcome for them as
an organization, as well as fortheir employees?
Rhonda Noordyk (51:17):
Yeah, I think there's really a couple things,
awareness, awareness of thepeople around you and what
they're going through thecompassion, right to just ask a
just simple, compassionate typequestion. And then lastly,
connect them right, connect themwith resources and people that
could help them and women'sfinancial wellness center
certainly can be a great onestop shop to say, Hey, listen,
(51:37):
reach out to this organization,right and see if they can help
you because from that point,we're going to make sure we've
got all the other people to beon their team and it is going to
be helpful for them. So it's notthat you have to have all the
answers. It's just you got topoint the people in the right
direction and show thecompassion that you care about
them as a human being.
Amee Quiriconi (51:54):
Yep, absolutely.
That's awesome. Well, Rhonda,you know, my life I always love
this. I always I'm alwaysgrateful for you know, how
making changes in my ownpersonal life have just
introduced me to so manyamazing, you know, people around
and you know, you're one ofthem, and I'm so excited that we
got to know each other and thatwe were able to have this
conversation. So thank you somuch for everything today.
Absolutely. Thanks so much.
Hello everybody welcome back to the show I have
with me a guest, she and I hadan opportunity to have a casual
conversation as we got to knoweach other, we met through
another mutual friend too. Iknow through the business end of
my my life, which a lot ofpeople coming into one broken
Mom, you're starting to get aviewpoint of me from my my
business and entrepreneurshipbackground. I know for some of
(00:21):
you that have been on thejourney with me, if you didn't
already know me ahead of time.
You know, we've talked a lotabout trauma and adversity and,
and overcoming a lot and havingfrank conversations about mental
health. And in this, this yearcoming up, because there's a lot
really going on in our world asit relates to mental health and
our workplace. It is somethingthat has always been a passion
(00:42):
for me. And so these episodes inseason four have started to
integrate some of the challengesthat we experienced that we
think of only as personal, youknow, air quotes around that
word personal issues, and howthey actually leak into work,
how work actually influences andaffects them. So that we can
have pretty much a much moreholistic and balanced, you know,
viewpoint of our life and whatwe're doing and how we're
(01:03):
handling the challenges that wehave, and not just keeping them
in silos because we don't livein working in silos. So Rhonda
is actually the founder and CEOof the women's financial
wellness center, and sheactually has her own podcast,
which is called the divorceconversations for women. And
she's an accredited financialexpert who has gone through and
the experience and understandthat divorce is hard, it's
(01:25):
painful, but it actually isfinancially devastating for many
women. And so she had startedher own business and practice in
2014, to help women through thefinancial aspects and to gain
some financial wellness, throughtheir divorce and after that,
and and so I'm really excited tohave you on to talk with me
(01:45):
about this topic, because I havelived through three divorces.
not proud of that, but it isjust a part of my history. And I
feel like it's like theGoldilocks thing, you know, the
porridge was too hot, too cold,and just right. And my last one
was the too hot, like hot messbad. And so I feel this topic.
Personally, I've lived thistopic personally. And I know
that many women go through somechallenges with it. And so I'm
(02:09):
really excited to have you hereto talk with me about this.
Rhonda Noordyk (02:13):
Yes, absolutely.
Well, thank you so much forhaving me. You know, I think as
we just kick off our timetogether, I just want to say,
you know what, yes, our focusand area of expertise is
educating and empowering womenaround divorce. But you know, if
you're a guy, right, listeningto this, right, we have some
stuff for you, too. And women'sfinancial wellness center does
(02:33):
not hate men. We just want tobring some balance to the
conversation. And most of thewomen that we talked to are
feeling disempowered. So it'sjust I'm so glad that we're
having this conversation today.
Amee Quiriconi (02:46):
Right, thank you. Yeah. And so you know, I to
prepare for this. I mean, I getexcited, like, it's one thing to
have a lived experience of goingthrough divorce. And you know,
and understanding, depending onthe nature of the relationship,
the quality of the relationship,and really the the behavior and
personality of the partner thatyou're leaving or trying to
leave or they're leaving you,that happens in divorce too.
(03:07):
Like we're the like surprisedone, it does dictate the how the
process is going to go. Andwhether or not you come out of
it unscathed, emotionallydrained, bankrupt, you know, or
whatever. And so I wanted to, tokind of look into and support,
you know, our conversationtoday. And one of the studies
(03:27):
that I actually managed to find,and for everybody that's
listening, if you're interested,the link to the study will be in
the podcast notes, if you wantto nerd out on 40 pages of
research, I got it for you. Butthis one was called the gender
differences in the consequencesof divorce. And it was a study
of multiple outcomes. And sowhat this researcher actually
did, which a lot of researcherswill do, is instead of creating
their own study, they willactually go and gather all the
(03:49):
other studies, and they'llsynthesize the information
together and then see the, youknow, see the trends in the
studies that other people havedone. And so for people that
don't read research studies,that that's actually I think, is
a fantastic element of a peerreview, and seeing what other
people have done becausesometimes these independent
studies, I'll just get lost, andit takes people to pull them all
(04:09):
together and go, Oh, well, welook at 10 of these together.
This is why we also see like thetrend of the trends. Now this
one here, I'm looking at thegender differences. You know,
one of the things that he notedwas, first of all, men actually
appear to be more emotionallyimpacted negatively from divorce
than women. And I think that'srelevant to our conversation
(04:32):
today. That's why I want topoint that out. But on the other
end of the spectrum, is thatthere is a big difference in
disproportionate difference,though, for losses in household
income and increase a risk ofpoverty and single parenting for
women. So at one end of thedivorce spectrum, you see that
more men are emotionallyimpacted. And the result is on
(04:55):
the other end. The womenactually come out as the
financial losers in the wholething. And one of the things
that this gentleman study of a,but again, a bunch of other
research studies was that men'sdisproportionate impacts were
transient. That meant that afterthere was a recovery period and
emotional healing period, theywere fine. Women's or chronic,
(05:17):
starting off on the wrong footcoming out of divorce can be
devastating and take a longtime, if ever, you know, a
recovery period, it actuallyhappens. And so that's a bit
about why we are talking aboutthis, you know, in today, and
the factors that, you know, theresearch shows that contribute
to this possibly is, you know,when a woman is in a
(05:37):
relationship, and they have totake on the parenting role, they
actually have restricted accessto income. So the the, the bills
and everything were being paidby the, you know, the the earner
in the house, which tends to bethe man, they don't get enough,
sufficient child maintenance orchild support, when the divorce,
you know, happens, they thatloss of income doesn't get made
up in spousal maintenance. Andthen there's also the deficits
(06:01):
that come from just beinggendered and having your
specialization happened to bethe all the household stuff. And
so you're taking on all thisadditional burden and labor,
there's no time to go out and doanything else, or be compensated
for it. And so that can reallylead you into a you know, again,
a path of where it's verydifficult to make ends meet,
when you have the singleparenting responsibilities also
(06:23):
placed on you and you're notgetting enough financial
support. And, and I think thatthe reason I wanted to talk or
bring into the context of the ofthe men and the men suffering
from the emotional consequences,just imagine, for those of us
who've been through divorce,that if what we're seeing study
wise, is men having this, thisnegative consequences,
(06:45):
basically, let's just call itwhat it is being hurt by divorce
their partner, for whateverreason, leaving the sense of
abandonment that may be comingup and you know, boiling up
inside of them. You know, thisisn't an advocate or let's just
say this isn't saying that it'sokay that it happens. But when
we are hurt, we do hurtfulthings. And the tool that when
(07:08):
men have a position of powerover the finances and the
situation, their tool forgetting back or for you know,
for of displaying this hurt, cancome out in disproportionately
injuring their partner throughthe financial mechanisms that
they have available to them, I'mgoing to punish them for leaving
me, I'm going to punish them. Bytaking the money, I'm going to
cut them off from theirresources, whatever it all is,
(07:28):
right? I mean, we can throw allof that into this mix. And
sometimes it's true. Andsometimes it's not true. But I
do think that we understandthere are two humans trying to
separate their lives from eachother, and they're doing what
they can, and this is theexperience that I've had, is
that the divorce process can bea way of punishing your other
partner. You know, andunfortunately, because of what
(07:49):
we've seen so far, in cultureand society, there is a, you
know, supreme or extreme genderimbalance in terms of these
responsibilities in thesehouseholds and these
expectations. And so I think itis valid, that we have to look
at women, you know, differentlyhere, and maybe bring in the
context of, you know, just alittle bit of an understanding,
you know, of, you know, the menaren't on the other side all the
(08:12):
way, they're not abusive all thetime. Sometimes they are but
they're, they're humans that arehurt, right, and that the tool
we're using against this divorcehappens to be, you know, this
proceeding, so take that forwhatever you guys want, you
know, but I did want to makesure that, you know, we at least
had this depth of understanding,you know, as you and I talk
Rhonda about this. Yeah, sothoughts on that study, anything
(08:33):
jumped out to my
Rhonda Noordyk (08:33):
gosh, where do I even start, right? Like to? I
love these kinds of things,right? Because there were so
many things that you sent methat just really resonate with,
you know, what I have seen aswe've been working in this
space. And I think there's acouple things, right. I mean,
certainly there is the, youknow, gender conversation where
(08:54):
I feel like the divorce processfor such a long time has been
this imbalance of power. What'shappening though, with that is
women. So there's two things oneis, you know, you've got the
high income earner or the personwho's the breadwinner for the
family. And then you have youknow, somebody who's maybe
working part time or, you know,sometimes you have dual incomes,
(09:16):
but not always. And so when youhave this imbalance of income
coming in, it really can impacttheir view of the divorce
process, their view of you know,how things should shake out. And
I think psychologically, womenhave been in this spot where I
see them saying, well, I'll cutout X amount of things out of my
(09:37):
budget, I will not negotiate toget, you know, an increase in
salary. I will let him havewhatever he wants. He says it's
going to be amicable, you know,like, and so there's there's two
things going on. There's thedivorce process in and of
itself, that I think is becauseof history right has been still
(10:00):
has an imbalance of power. Andwe have definitely some work to
do there. On the flip side, I'mseeing women give away their
power, rather than fighting alittle bit. And when I say
fighting, I don't mean like,Hey, we're gonna show up and be
a be at the table, like, I mean,asking questions and advocating
and making sure that you've gotthe right team and not feeling
(10:20):
like you have to be the martyrto throw yourself under, you
know, and, and well, I have aclient right now who actually is
on SSDI, she's 40 years old. Andhopefully, she won't be on it
forever. But it's been atemporary thing where she does
have some money coming in fordisability, her husband's an
attorney, um, and basically, youknow, has convinced her that,
(10:41):
you know, she doesn't reallyneed a whole lot, right? And so
she's been getting, she's beengetting weekly treatments, IV
treatments of things. They'rejust really helped her get
through the week. $65 a week,right? She says to me, Randall,
when we're looking at my budget,I'm really just concerned and,
you know, I will, I'll justmaybe I'll only go twice a
(11:02):
month. For those treatments. I'mlike, Oh, no, no, no, your
husband just bought an Escaladeat $900 a month, you are not
going to cut back on thosethings that you need to make
sure that you're showing up inthe best way possible for your
kids, for the work that you needto be doing right, like no. And
so I have been frustrated,right? Because I think, again,
(11:24):
there's so many differentdynamics that are going on with
this. I do see on the back end,a lot of the study showing that
the quality of life, thestandard of living for women
after divorce drops 41%, afterthe divorce is over. So then the
question becomes, how do we makesure that the divorce process in
and of itself, that women arehaving a voice, that they're
(11:47):
running the numbers so that theyknow, right? Where things should
land after? Because wide, right,I just want to get this done, I
get it. But at what expense. AndI was on a see, you know, course
with some other divorceprofessionals, and there was an
attorney in New Jersey. And hesaid, Rhonda, you know, it's up
(12:08):
to the client if they take a baddeal. And I said, here's the
scoop, if we're working with anindividual, right, and they have
all of the information. And, youknow, they understand the
consequences of their decisionfully. And then they make a
decision. Are they really makinga bad decision? Or are they
(12:29):
making an informed decision forthemselves? And if we can do
that, right, if we can helpwomen understand what some of
these things mean? It certainlycan be impactful. And to your
point about, you know, them, themen being hurt. Yeah, they deal
with emotions differently. So Sowhat Rhonda, why do you work
with women's financial wellnesscenter, because when I first
(12:50):
started my business, I waspassionate about helping women.
And secondly, the other part ofit is that men are going to go
to a retreat and sit around andtalk about their finances, you
know, their finances and theirfeelings and all that kind of
stuff, right? what they're goingto do is they're going to
internalize, they're going tothey're going to go inward,
they're not going to talk aboutit. I mean, there was a, there
was a guy that I had done apresentation with several years
(13:13):
ago, he had gone throughdivorce, he was in the military,
and nobody knew he was goingthrough divorce. Three years
later, he shows up at a functionwith another woman. And they're
like, he's like,Oh, you guys didn't know like,
because he's not talking aboutit. He shows up at work, he
focuses on his thing, he triesto not really, you know, deal
(13:33):
with the emotional part of it.
And it's just, it's just aninvestment, whereas women, on
the flip side, right, they'reprobably going to work and you
probably know something's upthere, maybe you're talking
about it, they're looking forsupport they want you know, so
it's just there's so manydifferent dynamics, but I love
that study and can't wait, Iwill probably nerd out on the 40
(13:56):
pages. Yeah, it's
Amee Quiriconi (13:59):
pretty fun. It's pretty fascinating. And like I
said, you know, the context, Ithink, is is important for this
conversation again, because itlike I'd mentioned to you and I
know, the listeners are outthere, you know, everybody
that's out here in thecommunity, I know that it's like
half and half, you know, andmaybe some other percentages for
you know, non binary. But the,the, when we can kind of bring
(14:22):
in and understand, like we cansee everybody's positions from
an it doesn't make any of itvalid or you know, nice, you
know, to be manipulative andcontrolling. But unfortunately,
the other you know, the otherside of this coin is like you
that brought up many times,which is that, you know, women
by, by nature, not and I don'tmean that as an we're born this
way, I mean we are groomed intothis, you know, our, our
(14:45):
personality, our role in life,our role in relationship is, you
know, really to be the caretakerof you know, again, that's what
we're talking about this genderstereotype that says that women
are the ones in charge of therelationships and maintaining
The connection and therefore theones that have to sacrifice
themselves. That is the standardthat we've set for how women
(15:06):
behave in relationships. Andactually, unfortunately, it
shows up and how they behave atwork sometimes, too. I mean,
this context of like, you know,being able to create value or or
feel value, like it do what Ido, is it worth anything? Do I
need to make a sacrifice? I seeit all the time in business with
women and salaries and chargingfor services. Yeah. And so
that's the, you know, that's thebig umbrella that comes into
this is, am I actually worthmore? How do I communicate
(15:29):
assertively? Absolutely, I needmore and not come off as mean,
or, and I've been option one to,you know, to cold, where you
know, and that was my firstdivorce, I actually was the
breadwinner, I felt bad that Ididn't want to be married to
this guy anymore. And so I gavehim all of my furniture. I mean,
I pat, you know, I had to sendhim packing, I kept the house,
(15:50):
but I, like just said, Takeeverything I can, I've got the
means in the way to buy morestuff. And of course, people
were like, do you really want todo that? And I did exactly what
you said, I just want this overwith. And and I felt guilt, you
know, and so the woman who feelsguilty or bad about the
relationship gives it away, youknow? Well,
Rhonda Noordyk (16:09):
and can we talk about that for a second, right?
Because that's exactly the stuffthat I'm seeing, right. So then
you have where there the roleshave been reversed within a
household, and one of them isstaying home. And, and one of
them is, you know, workingright. And if the woman is
working, I have several, youknow, women who are in really
significant positions of power,career wise. And the husband
(16:33):
either is doing something he youknow, enjoy some more more of
like a hobby or he's home,right. And in these divorces,
the women do, they are like theygive more away, then they would
ever by the court be required togive away. And secondly, they're
more giving way more than theirmale colleagues would ever give
(16:53):
away without a fight. And that'sthe dynamic that I'm seeing,
like, why is this happening? Andyou know what, I think there's
so much though, to around theattorney aspect of it, because,
you know, the attorneys are,like, one of my clients was
relocating from Wisconsin to NewYork, she took another position.
And her husband's attorney wasadvocating that he meaning the
(17:17):
husband should get a relocationfee of $150,000 to New York.
Amee Quiriconi (17:23):
Wow, I would love a relocation fee of
$150,000.
Rhonda Noordyk (17:27):
Well, and and first of all, right, like no
money, it doesn't evennecessarily matter what the
dollar amount is, I, in orderfor my clients, like I would
have to, we would have to fightso hard to get them to do
anything above and beyond thebasic statutory aspects of
maintenance or support. Now,we've been able to do it. And
(17:48):
I've been able to advocate forclients that that really did end
up in a better spot, not at theexpense of their spouse, were
getting them to where theyprobably should have been, which
was an equitable distribution ofthe marital property, and a good
amount of maintenance andsupport, right for the duration.
(18:09):
But all that stuff issubjective. All I mean, and
people will say, well, Rhonda,you know, what about the marital
property states? I mean, it's,it's 5050 5050. Right? So why
5050 is your best day? You know,and, and so it's no, but again,
it's knowing what questions toask. It's knowing who the right
(18:31):
people are, you know, for thefor the attorney component, I
always say if people have threekey areas, you know, as they're
going through the process, theywill fare better through the
process, emotionally,financially, and legally. And
that is, you know, working witha therapist or a mental health
professional, working with afinancial expert who specializes
(18:51):
in working with divorces, and anattorney that really understands
the nuances of the divorce. AndI think that's the hardest part
on the legal side, is findingthe right attorney, because
you're like, Oh, well, thisattorneys, you know, they said
all the right things, and, youknow, they're the super lawyer
for the 25th year in a row. Andyet, you know, we work with
(19:12):
attorneys, and I see behind thescenes, how do they handle
stress? Are they respectful totheir clients? Did they
communicate, you know, in atimely fashion? Are they
bullying them? Are they youknow, all the things right? And
that's the real value that Iknow we're able to provide for
our clients. Is that insidebehind the scenes situation that
(19:33):
you just the normal consumerwould not know. I mean, there's
a there's an attorney that thatunfortunately, there's going to
be some some real challenges andand what I mean by that is, this
is this is an attorney who itcame forth from one of my
clients that he was sexuallyharassing her. Yeah, and it will
(19:55):
end and what's happening now issince that time, that name has
come up multiple All timesincluding a meeting I had this
morning with somebody who wasworking on a project for me. And
he used she used him as herattorney. This is now the sixth
time that I've heard that he issexually harassed these women.
And we're working with I havesomebody at the at the bar
(20:18):
association on the on thecommittee, and I've engaged him
to say, Listen, this is just notokay. And nobody had not, nobody
has really been thewhistleblower on, you know, this
kind of stuff. Now, is itdirectly related to the cases?
We could argue Yes, or no,probably. But it is. It is.
Because you know, what he'susing his influence in this
(20:39):
situation? The women are feelingintimidated by him. He's like,
you know, you made a baddecision. What are you doing?
And they're like, Well,whatever, like, I don't know.
And, you know, and so then theiroutcomes are awful. Because
they're not feeling empowered toask the right questions.
Amee Quiriconi (20:55):
Mm hmm. Yeah, I mean, and that brings up how
important the mental healthsupport through divorce really
is. And honestly, because at theend of the day, these decisions
are all emotional decisions. Imean, really, they are and like,
in for, you know, the work thatyou do, and having somebody like
you on the team allows you theemotional, you know, cut off, so
(21:15):
that, you know, things can belooked at, and at least you
know, at you as an anchor, pullthem back towards, you know,
some reregulated state of makinga decision that isn't based on
you know, emotion because itdoes not matter. There's nothing
unemotional. And in fact, goodattorneys will constantly try to
drive the conversations to theemotional level, because if
they're smart aboutneuroscience, they know that if
(21:37):
they can push this to anemotional level, then you're
talking about not usingexecutive functioning skills of
your brain making, makingconscious decisions, you're
making emotional decisions. AndI've dealt with that. sitting
through a mediation with anattorney on the other side, who
had her degree in neuroscience,and I knew her game before I
came into it. And anytime shecould keep pushing it to go down
or to like trigger traumatizewhatever it was, once it's done,
(22:01):
you say you do you give up you,you fight back? You look, you
look bad. I mean, I'll just putthat like, you know, if you get
triggered, and you look likeyou're overemotional in the
process. And then it doesn't,it's not like you walk away, and
it's all good. And that's whyyou and I were going to talk
about like, it bleeds out intothe other places of our lives,
you know, it bleeds out into thework environment, you know,
Rhonda Noordyk (22:23):
well, and I, you know, when you and I were
talking offline, right, I said,You know, I think there's so
much to this, and it's the thegravity of these situations is
so big, like, you know, makingsure that the attorneys fully
understand not only theemotional component, but the
trauma, like there are so manywomen that that these high
(22:44):
conflict situations, honestly,the court systems are terrible
at knowing how to deal withthose, and the attorneys aren't
far behind it. And it's notbecause they don't necessarily
want to. It's a training gap.
It's an understanding gap. It'sa awareness gap, right? When you
have a client who is perceivedas you know, high maintenance,
usually it's because there'strauma that's happened. She
(23:06):
doesn't feel like she's beinglistened to. The guardian ad
litem isn't listening, ifthey've been, I mean, there's
just all these pieces. And, youknow, it is challenging because
for us, like, we have a coachingcomponent as we're helping
navigate through the process andmanage expectations and teach
women how to set boundaries andassertive communication and all
(23:28):
the things. And, and yes,there's a financial piece to it,
but we're not attorneys, right.
So so we're working in a systemthat is we're running up the
down escalator every single day.
And, and it's it's exhausting,and rewarding, and all the
things right, um, but I'll tellyou what I mean, that I was, I
(23:50):
was reflecting on a couplethings. And you know, last week,
he, you know, I've been doingthis particular work for seven
years. And last week, Iliterally probably had the first
official meltdown, I think thatI've had, I mean, I get
emotional with my clients. I'lltear up when I feel like and i
and i understand how they'refeeling like this system is, you
know, in just, and I have a realheart for justice, right. But it
(24:14):
was hard, because I think thatthe hardest part of what I do is
when I see people give up theirpower, and give up. And it's
it's so that's of all the stuffthat I do is the most
challenging. And so I think ifwe can, you know, if we can
empower people to ask goodquestions, and it kind of leads
(24:35):
into where you were leadingwith, you know, yes, it bleeds
into other areas. And I did apresentation for a rotary group.
This was probably five yearsago. And I was in a room of a
lot of leaders within thecommunity. Women and men alike,
right. And there were a coupleguys in there that were like
(24:56):
I've been married for 25 years.
And whatever this topic doesn'tapply to me and, you know,
whatever. And, and I kind ofaddressed it in the beginning,
because I could sense that therewas some, some sense of
hesitation or dismissal of theimportance of this topic. And I
kicked off our my presentationby saying, I'm so glad that you
(25:18):
as leaders are here. And I couldsay the same thing about the
people that are listening tothis episode, like, We're so
glad that you're here listeningto it, right. And if you're
here, and you have a sense ofinfluence in your company, in
your community, in your family,right, you therefore have some
sense of responsibility to beaware of these things, and an
(25:39):
opportunity to be able toinfluence and impact people's
lives. Right. And so the, thething that you and I had chatted
about was this study, marriageand family study, you know, from
10 plus years ago. And what Ifound, as I was reading that
study, was, this is interesting,because the impact that divorce
(26:02):
is having isn't just impactingfamilies and friends, and social
calendars, it's impactingcorporate, it's impacting
businesses. And yeah, I mean,I'd love to just spend a couple
of moments and share with you.
Amee Quiriconi (26:17):
Yeah, that's, and that's what I want to see.
Because, you know, like you hadsaid at the beginning here, not
everybody talks about thedivorce, right? Especially if
they, if they happen to be men,it's something that could be a
sore spot, or again, and Iaddressed men's mental health on
the show a lot. Men alsobecause, again, the gender
stereotypes that hurt women,they also hurt men, because men
(26:39):
are given, you know, call it theopposite or different stories,
especially when it comes toemotional relationships and
connections. And those hurt themtoo. So when they're isolated,
and they can't get support whenthey need it, that hurts and and
you know, women, on the otherhand, maybe can reach out for
support, but but not all thetime. So you know, this is
happening in companieseverywhere more than people
(27:00):
probably would think orunderstand and an impact. And so
yes, please, let's start tolet's dig into what you had
found and what you'd read andshared.
Rhonda Noordyk (27:08):
Yeah. So we can unpack this a little bit. So I
want to I want to just kind oftake everybody to I read this,
this, this research report. AndI was sitting at my desk, and I
was looking at the case studyaround this, this research. And
so I kind of went through theexercise to kind of evaluate
what I'm going to be sharing.
And I literally put my head downon the desk. And I was like,
This is such a big issue. Likehow do we address this? Right.
(27:31):
And the study was talking aboutthe impact that divorce has on
workplace productivity. And I'vehad several conversations with
people and human resources,leadership positions, right?
Where they say, we know thatsomething is going on, we don't
know what it is. Or maybe we do,we don't know how to approach
it. We're feeling like, youknow, we don't want to overstep
(27:52):
our bounds. But we really wantto be able to let people know
that we're supporting them, youknow, and I so I think what ends
up happening is people saynothing, because they don't know
what to say. And I said, youknow, you could say something as
simple as you know, how are youdoing today? It looks like
you're maybe going through achallenging time. Is there
anything that I could do tosupport you or help you? I mean,
again, like, it sounds so basic,right? But, but we get those
(28:15):
ones are like, I don't know whatto say is I'm not gonna say
anything. I don't want to offendanybody. I'm not sure, like,
just genuinely show up with aquestion of compassion. Like,
let's just start there, right?
And if you ask them, How are youdoing today? Or, you know, is
there anything I can do tosupport you and they start
crying, then now you've maybeopened the door? Right? This
(28:39):
study was?
Amee Quiriconi (28:41):
No, no, no, no, no, I was gonna say I was gonna
say that that came up in anotherconversation that I had that you
know, that you bring up thatsometimes people just don't know
how to broach something thatseems so deeply personal and
emotional at work, you know, weknow how to ask our friends, you
know, if everything's going on,but we definitely have, you
know, the, you know, there's aboundary at work, this
professionalism, that peoplereally, and that's that wall,
(29:03):
you know, to be able to breakthrough there that it doesn't
have to be like, you don't haveto open up a can of worms or
whatever you think is gonnahappen. But just a question of,
what are you doing? Okay, like,I'm here. You want to talk about
it? Yeah. You don't just let Ijust want to validate you, I see
you. And I see that there'ssomething happening for you. And
that can be supportive to peopleto have that recognition.
Rhonda Noordyk (29:26):
I have goosebumps with that. Because
that's that's really the heartof where we're coming, you know,
with this conversation, right,is we don't have to have all the
answers. We just need to showsome Yeah, genuinely validation,
kindness, compassion, care forother people, right. Because
divorce, as we know, right upthere with death, right? Death,
(29:48):
divorce, loss of a job, andillness top stressors. So it is
impacting people's lives andthey're not just leaving it at
the door, you know? So thisstudy basically I was talking
about the impact that divorcehas on workplace productivity.
And, and the reason that Istarted looking for this was
because I had a woman walk intomy office one day, and she's
(30:10):
like, Rhonda, this whole divorcething is an open purse. Like, I
just keep spending more money, Iam so frustrated, I've been
married for 25 years, I've beenworking for the same company for
25 years, I love my job, I feellike I'm struggling to show up
and be present. And I've had toget a second job in addition to
that, just to pay for the legalfees. And I could just see this,
(30:32):
like internal struggle, right.
So what what the study wasshowing, and I have seen this in
my clients as well. So thenumbers while they initially
seemed high, I've been able tovalidate those, okay, so
basically, if the impact of theperson the individual is going
through divorce is 50%, half ofthe time, that they should be
(30:53):
focused on work, they'refocusing on either in their
head, worrying about aconversation that happened last
night, worrying about theirsafety, getting a text message,
getting an email, getting aphone call, having to reach out
to their attorney, thinkingworrying about the finances, not
getting sleep, etc, etc. Right?
So all those things swirlingaround, and then we're supposed
(31:13):
to just like, okay, and I'mfocused at work like, No, that
doesn't happen. So 50%, right.
So this case study was showing,okay, if we take a, an income
range for a specific position,let's say, and we say, okay,
half of that, half of that isbeing impacted on productivity.
And then we look at the nextlayer in this kind of like
(31:37):
Target, which is the out thenext layer would be the people
in their circle. So theircolleagues, the people that
they're interacting with on amore regular basis, and the
impact of those individuals wasabout three to 5% on their
productivity, so not definitelynot anywhere near the person
that's going. And to your point,it would be so easy for them to
(31:59):
have the blinders on. And notsay anything, right, because
it's not really impacting themat the degree that is impacting
the individual going through it.
So then we have the next layer,which is the 1% impact for the
supervisors, the trainers, theleaders within the organization.
And again, it's, you know, it'sit's maybe just a little bit of
(32:21):
a problem, right for theirproductivity, but not nearly the
impact. So then what we have asthe people that are the key
decision makers, are the onesthat aren't really being as
impacted by it, that are makingthe decisions on do we address
this or not? Do we provideresources, you know, for our
employees or not around this.
And I just think that's kind offascinating. And then you've got
(32:43):
the people that they are, youknow, the three to 5% that are
frustrated, because theindividual isn't maybe as
present the workloads falling onthem, they're around the
watercooler or on the chat orwhatever, you know, whatever
that looks like complaining,because they're frustrated, you
know. And so when I went throughthat, right, we just kind of had
(33:03):
this ripple effect of thedollars and cents bottom line
for the company. It was, it wasabsolutely unbelievable to me.
So we're talking probably abouta 70 total of after with the
compounding, right, close to 75%impact. So if you're spending,
you know, $100,000 on anemployee, you're only getting
about 25%. Productivity out ofthat specific situation. Yeah,
(33:28):
and I don't want it to just beabout the money part. But it is
impacting the company. So whatdo we do about that?
Amee Quiriconi (33:39):
Right? Well, in it, you know, and money speaks
to business leaders, right?
Because there's a bottom lineand get your, your, your ROI on
that. But, you know, the otherthing to think about, it's like,
it doesn't have to just be likean office person $100,000 your
person, I mean, think about, youknow, absenteeism as a part of
what that looks like, it doesn'tmean that they don't just show
up and they're not focused ontheir work or hitting their
(34:00):
deadlines or anything like that.
They're not coming to work atall, their health is declining.
You know, and I and I thinkabout and again, I go back to my
personal experience goingthrough a divorce with an
abuser, there is no good day.
No, no, you know, every victoryhas a backlight to it. I mean,
it is it is hard. And I part ofmy support system. In fact, my
(34:21):
you know, aside from one friend,the only other support system I
had, because my community was Icut off my community because
just to be able to get away fromthe abuser and the network. I
mean, you lose all your friends,you know, if you had shared
friends, you know, you just haveto like go through a complete
cut off. And the only supportnetwork I had was the people at
(34:42):
work and I am so grateful forthe people that I had around me,
but we spent some time talkingabout my problem, you know, and
and it was a company culturethat that was okay. But there
was definitely, you know, therewas a decline, you know, the
hours spent You know that I wascrying or having to leave or
take a call with an attorney oryou know, go to whatever kind of
(35:03):
meeting or whatever I mean, allthat stuff like I'm not I'm
definitely not at my best. And,and then the stress on top of
that of the financialconsequences like I feel that
person of like, you know itcost. And I got a discount
because my attorneys I had twolawyers, a business lawyer and a
divorce attorney, because I wasunraveling businesses real
estate. And the only way I couldget the divorce was I had to use
(35:26):
the Washington State law thattreated our relationship as a
meretricious relationship,because we never actually got
married. So and that was the wayof trying to get out of having
to pay me any compensation,right, or my shares. So I had to
bring in a divorce lawyer, andall done it was 10s of 10s of
1000s of dollars that I did nothave while I was trying to
(35:50):
support myself and two kids, andyou know, so there's, you know,
it, it's a huge, like, I know,what it was like to be that
person and to show up, and Iknow what it was like to have
the support of a company thatcould be there and help it. And,
and if I had not had it, I amnot entirely sure. what life
would have been like withoutthat. I mean, to be, you know,
(36:13):
like it just right. Yeah, Imean, and that's, you know, and
for leaders, you know, it is ayou know, if they're not greatly
impacted by it. And again, thethe idea that, you know, divorce
is a personal issue, and weshould stay out of it, and it's
not our deal. And you know, andI don't understand, and
especially, I think that when wetake the we go back to the
(36:33):
beginning, the top of this talkabout how men have been
socialized to view challenges inone way, and women in another
way, you know, if you're dealingwith a leadership that may be
very male, heavy, they may notunderstand, they might just want
you to suck it up and deal withit on your own. You know, what I
mean? And not make it a problemat work, figure it out? You
(36:56):
know, and that's, you know, it'snot, it's not productive, nor is
it, you know, humanly possible,you know, to do that,
Rhonda Noordyk (37:05):
no, and I think men are better at doing that,
right, put it in the box, but atthe shell, you know, on the
shelf, it's not to say that itisn't there. But again, women
right are going to show up andwe can't, we can't separate
those as as easily maybe, as youknow, our male counterparts can.
And so either we deal with it,and provide support, like your
(37:26):
company did for you, or womenare just going to be silently
suffering, and it is still goingto impact them. Like it's either
we it's not whether or not weaddress it, it's still in it's
still there.
Amee Quiriconi (37:36):
I know. That's what I always say is like you
can believe traumas not at work,but it's still there. Yeah, and
I'll change you know, and I'lleven say to this about, you
know, men do a better job, Iactually, I think they do a
different job. Because when I goback to suicide rates are the
highest with middle aged men, wealready know the studies support
the fact that men are greatlyemotionally impacted. It may not
(37:57):
show up at work, but it bleedsout in another part of their
life. Absolutely. Oh, you know,if they can keep it siloed and
out of the work life, it doesn'tmean they're handling. And as a
business leader, I think youneed to be aware of that as
well. Like, it may not be ontheir productivity, but it's
hurting them in another placewill eventually, you know, hurt
you or your company or thepeople or you know, and if you
(38:19):
care about people, then, youknow, they may not show up, but
I still think it's there. So Ijust wanted to add that into it.
Because, yeah, obviously,divorce hurts us all. So yeah,
Rhonda Noordyk (38:30):
absolutely.
Well, and I think the otherthing that I was thinking of
too, is, you know, the averagedivorce is 52 weeks, that's an
entire year, you know, andthat's from when you just start
the process. So I mean, there'sall the stuff leading up to it.
And then there's the processitself. And then there's on the
back end. But you know, we'veworked with several companies
where they've actually hired usto be able to help their
(38:52):
employees. And what we did withthem, was we were first of all
flexible enough to say, listen,let's set aside time over lunch,
or let's set aside time afternormal business hours, because
divorce isn't a nine to fivething. And if we can carve out a
little bit of time, and you knowthat you've got somebody who's
going to deal with your concernsand questions, let's
compartmentalize that and dealwith it at this time. And it was
(39:14):
a it was really an effectivestrategy for our clients because
they didn't then feel like theyhad to spend the time that they
were supposed to be workingthinking to try to solve the
problem, which was really thisWhat if scenario that wasn't
really productive anyways, andso so that was the first you
know, that was the first thingum, but the companies that we
had worked with really saw thevalue in the fact that it was
(39:36):
impacting, you know them andthey said, Okay, if we can
invest in our employees, if wecan provide them with
essentially divorce education,right and support, they're going
to be in a better spot. And bythe way, they're going to be
able to not only be moreproductive, but they're also
maybe not going to leave. Sothat's a whole nother issue
(39:57):
because When I'm helping womennavigate through on the
budgeting side, we're taking alook at income and expenses. And
we're saying, Okay, well, here'swhat you have coming in from
your job. Here's what you may behaving coming in from support,
right? Here's the gap. So how dowe fill the gap? Well, we either
go back and we ask for more,most of the time child supports
(40:17):
a statutory calculation, it iswhat it is. So the flexibility
would be on the alimony ormaintenance payments. Okay, so
we can advocate for that we'vebeen able to move the needle so
that that's an area that wecould do, depending on the
state, but the real gap is inthe income. So now we've got the
income gaps for women coupledwith, you know, them leaving
these situations. So we've beenable to actually coach women on,
(40:41):
hey, what if you could actuallyask
Unknown (40:45):
for a raise,
Rhonda Noordyk (40:46):
which sounds counterproductive, I'm going
through this really challengingtime, I'm already maybe feeling
like, I'm not totally, you know,productive as much as I could
be. And yet, I'm going to beasking for a raise. But the
reason they were able to do thatwas because we were coaching
them on showing up. The thecompany saw that the women were
more confident that they wereable to handle their, you know,
(41:09):
responsibilities. And they alsoknew that this person is
valuable. And they happenvaluable, and they're just going
through something reallychallenging. But if we can keep
them, we're not going to have toreplace them. What's the cost of
that? And so we have taughtwomen how to negotiate those
salaries, and it's worked everysingle time. And it's been
(41:29):
awesome to see that. So I don'tknow, do we have time for me to
just share this acronym reallyquickly?
Amee Quiriconi (41:34):
Yeah, absolutely, please. Okay,
Rhonda Noordyk (41:36):
so the acronym that we use to help women
negotiate is called a knot. Andit's a and o t. And basically,
how it works is I'll telleverybody what the letters stand
for, and then I'll explain it.
So the a is acknowledge the N isnaturally the O is obviously and
the T is the ask, okay? So, sothe acknowledgement is, you
(42:04):
know, having those conversationswith the decision makers to say,
Listen, I just want to thank youso much for the opportunity to
be part of this culture to beable to work here for you know,
this many years, whatever Ivalue, not only what I'm able to
contribute, but what you guysare doing whatever, right, so
just a genuine acknowledgementof gratitude. The naturally is
naturally just acknowledgingthat people as much as they want
(42:27):
to think about other peoplethere, they do human beings
think about themselves, right?
So naturally, I fill in theblank, okay, so naturally, I
want to be able to continue towork here to continue to be able
to, you know, show up and do agood job to continue to support
my family or whatever, right. Sowe just acknowledge the
naturally I and obviously, rightis, obviously you meaning the
(42:51):
company. So obviously, you needto, you know, stay within your
budget range, a healthy rangefor, you know, salaries,
obviously, you know, you need tomake sure that you're, you know,
have the long term projectionsin play. So whatever it is,
right, and then the asked couldbe, it doesn't necessarily mean
(43:13):
that the that it's like, weasked right away for the race,
sometimes that's Hey, the Askcould be, can we have a
conversation around, you know,my career path here? Can we have
a conversation around exploringif there are some opportunities
for increased responsibility orincome? Or could we evaluate the
fact that I have been doing topeople's jobs, because, you
(43:34):
know, we eliminated thatposition, and there wasn't any
compensation for taking on thoseadditional responsibilities. So
we can tee up a futureconversation. If it makes sense,
we could say, Hey, listen, canwe talk about, you know,
increasing the compensation, butmost of the time, people are
going to feel a little bit likeRhonda, that just feels a little
too direct. Okay, then let'sjust tee up the conversation.
(43:55):
And it's worked. It's workedevery single time. And, um, I
think that's a way for women.
Again, it goes back to how do wenot give up our power? We ask,
we asked, right,
Amee Quiriconi (44:07):
which is not I mean, it is honestly, it is. And
I know there are men out therethat feel that too. But I mean,
again, study after study, youknow, it shows that women just
have lower levels ofentitlement, you know, and
that's, that is a taught learnedbehavior that we just keep
propagating and promoting overand over again, and this is how
we break those as we change theway we message and communicate
(44:29):
and model for our children are,you know, our boys and girls and
everyone, and then we start toas adults, practice undoing it
by taking on, you know,something that feels
uncomfortable and, and workingthrough the discomfort and it's
hard to do that alone. That'swhy you and I are talking about
it. That's why I do the showthat I do. That's why I work
(44:50):
with businesses and individuals.
It is not easy to do on yourown. And that's why support
systems are vital. You know, andthere's and i and i love that. I
mean, I That's a great way to beable to provide a burly easy,
how easy it is to be assertive.
And to acknowledge bothpositions yourself and the other
person, it's a validating way ofapproaching it. And I was gonna
(45:12):
ask you what the T stands for.
But now you said it's t up,right? Like it either. Next
conversation, but you'd at leastget the you know, you get it
going there. And I think that'samazing. Um, well, you know, I,
I appreciate, you know that youhave this. And so let's talk
about if anybody's beenlistening to this. And they're
like, Oh, dear God, I've got togo work with Rhonda and hear it.
Like, let's talk about theexperience. And how does
(45:33):
somebody come to you? And whatdoes it look like for you like,
because I can see, like, we justtalked about how women can be,
you know, in a weak positionfinancially, the last thing they
can think about is payinganother person to join the
divorce team. You know, you knowwhat I mean? I'm just feel I'm
absolutely there. So what is itlike? How do you come in? And
how do you support these womenthat absolutely needed this
(45:55):
additional help of getting theirpower and not being bankrupted?
At the end of all of it?
Rhonda Noordyk (46:01):
Yeah, absolutely. Well, there's a
couple of things. So one of thethings that we've been able to
notice over the last seven yearsin doing this work is a couple
things. One is that whatever arethe initial investment is with
women's financial wellnesscenter, women are getting a 10
times return on their investmenton the back end, at least, I
mean, usually it's multiples ofthat, but at bare minimum, a 10
(46:24):
times return on theirinvestment. The second thing is
we're able to reduce the amountof attorney fees by up to 50%.
And the reason for that isbecause first of all, we're
selecting the right tourney'sright out of the gate, ones that
understand the value of workingtogether as a team, ones that
are open to streamlining theirprocesses, the ones that are you
(46:44):
know, all the things right. Andso their overall fees for
divorce are up to 50% less, it'shuge. Because we make sure stuff
gets done, like that sounds socrazy, but like, it's stuff that
should be happening and womenknowing what's going on, rather
than calling their attorney andspending all this time on the
phone, trying to figure outwhat's going on, when we've
(47:06):
already been doing that, youknow, so my approach is always
very proactive to say, what'snext, let's get through this
point, then this, then we'regoing to do this, then we're
going to do this, then we'regoing to do this. And the reason
that we're able to get them abetter outcome on the back end
is because we also have a teamof people that are working with
us mortgage brokers, so expertson real estate, experts on
mortgages, experts on taxes,experts on you know, mental
(47:29):
health, we have all the people.
And so then it's our job toactually not only help with the
financial aspects, but pull inthe right people at the right
time. So that they that ourclients understand that piece.
So we're either working withwomen individually, to be able
to help advocate for them.
Sometimes we're behind thescenes that people don't even
know we're working with them.
Sometimes we're in the meetingsas an advocate and a financial
(47:51):
expert client facing. We canalso do expert witness
testimonies and stuff like that.
So the level in which we canparticipate is huge. Those are
usually for litigated caseswhere they have attorneys. And
then we also are doingmediations where that can look
at two different ways. One iswe're working again with the
(48:11):
woman behind the scene, or theindividual behind the scenes as
their secret weapon. Or we'repart of the team working with
the husband and wife together asmore of a financial neutral
position. And the reason forthat was because women were
reaching out saying, I reallythink that genuinely speaking
there, there isn't narcissism,there. I mean, there's hurt,
(48:32):
right, but there is there's notthese extra layers of high
conflict. We really think wecould work it out. Great, then
let's start there. And so we canbe a really important asset. So
we're helping with budgeting,we're helping review property
divisions, we're helping reviewcalculations for support. We're
helping advocate, we're helpingnegotiate, and we're helping
make sure that everything isdone in the best way and the
(48:54):
right way, you know, possible.
And it's not to say that theattorneys are not necessarily
doing that, but they're the lensin which they're looking at this
is from the legal lens only.
We're looking at it from thefinancial perspective, short
term, what's happening now? Howdo we get through the divorce
process? And then where are wegoing? And I think that's the
part that's often missing is
Amee Quiriconi (49:13):
the impact.
That's what I was gonna say is,you know, get you know, a lawyer
is to get you through the hereand now and, and what you're
talking about, and that's andthat's how we end up getting
trapped, you know, into thischronic situation is that we
have foreshortened our futureview of what's going to happen
in one year from now and 12months from now you know, all
the things that actually are tosustain ourselves and and
(49:34):
because we're feeling the painof the here and now and we're
feeling the high the emotionshere and now of course we're
making you know, thoughts anddecisions. You don't do long
range planning when you're understress. That is a that's a
that's a brain thing rightthere. You were not you were
thinking about I need to get outright now right now right now
safety. Right. And so what withyou coming in and seeing this
(49:56):
and being able to be that longterm view for Somebody i think
is, you know, I think Well, Imean, obviously has an impact on
the people that you've workedwith right now. But again, too
many women end up in poverty.
You know, the year after myseparation, as I was going
through divorce, my tax returnswill tell you $30,000 in income,
(50:16):
that's what I made, because Ileft a situation in which my I
was, you know, a part of abusiness. And I got cut off from
all of that. And I was a singlemom with two kids on $30,000 a
year, folks, that does not work,thank God, that kid's dad
actually paid his portion oftheir child support that we had.
But it's been a long haul tocome back from from that. And
(50:36):
there are many women that thatdon't, you know, and that's
devastating. I mean, it's trulydevastating. Yeah. So before we
go, then I'm working withbusinesses and some advice for
leaders out there. So we've gotsome of them listening into
this. They're they're probablygoing oh, my God, I've got these
women now coming in asking mefor raises, you know, but
really, what do we want acompany culture to bring in and
(50:59):
understand and adopt when itcomes to seeing like divorces
prevalent? Like it's in there,it's in, you know, all of your
employees in some form oranother? So what would you What
would you tell business leadersto what they could do to help
support this so that it actuallyhas a better outcome for them as
an organization, as well as fortheir employees?
Rhonda Noordyk (51:17):
Yeah, I think there's really a couple things,
awareness, awareness of thepeople around you and what
they're going through thecompassion, right to just ask a
just simple, compassionate typequestion. And then lastly,
connect them right, connect themwith resources and people that
could help them and women'sfinancial wellness center
certainly can be a great onestop shop to say, Hey, listen,
(51:37):
reach out to this organization,right and see if they can help
you because from that point,we're going to make sure we've
got all the other people to beon their team and it is going to
be helpful for them. So it's notthat you have to have all the
answers. It's just you got topoint the people in the right
direction and show thecompassion that you care about
them as a human being.
Amee Quiriconi (51:54):
Yep, absolutely.
That's awesome. Well, Rhonda,you know, my life I always love
this. I always I'm alwaysgrateful for you know, how
making changes in my ownpersonal life have just
introduced me to so manyamazing, you know, people around
and you know, you're one ofthem, and I'm so excited that we
got to know each other and thatwe were able to have this
conversation. So thank you somuch for everything today.
Absolutely. Thanks so much.
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