Gaslighting at Work with Dr. Stephanie Sarkis

How many of you out there have ever had to deal with a co-worker or boss who has said things to you that have made you doubt yourself and wonder if you’re not going a little crazy because they are pretty convinced that the “real world” is very different from the one you are seeing or experiencing. For example, are they charming with everyone else, but controlling and demeaning towards you? Or do you have a co-worker constantly taking credit for your hard work? Do you have a boss who never admits their mistakes and puts blame on everyone else around them? 

Gaslighting is not only a form of emotional abuse but is also recognized as a form of workplace harassment. It is manipulative, controlling, and can make our work and life experiences intolerable. Also, if you have ever experienced abuse in your life, being around these people can be retraumatizing. 

In this episode, Ameé speaks with Dr. Stephanie Sarkis, the author of Gaslighting: Recognize Manipulative and Emotionally Abusive People – and Break Free. 

You will hear: 

• How to recognize the signs of gaslighting
• How to protect yourself at work from gaslighters, emotionally and legally
• What a company and human resources need to have in place for reporting harassment claims like this
• Who is more vulnerable to the inappropriate tactics gaslighters and manipulators use
• How gaslighting can trigger past abuse trauma and PTSD
• How important work culture is in establishing a true anti-harassment environment
• How important hiring is in keeping manipulative and aggressive people out of the company to begin with

Links from this episode:

Gaslighting: Recognize Manipulative and Emotionally Abusive People -- and Break Free

 

Links to buy The Fearless Woman’s Guide to Starting a Business

Amazon (Audio, Print, Kindle Versions): https://amzn.to/3daO7nA

Barnes and Noble- https://bit.ly/FearlessWomansGuide

Bookshop- https://bit.ly/FearlessWomanBookshop

Visit https://www.ameequiriconi.com/ for more articles about self-help, healing from trauma, leadership, business, and more!

Episode Transcript

Amee Quiriconi (00:00):
Alright, everybody, welcome to the show.
When it asked a question for thelisteners out there, how many of
you have ever had to deal with aco worker or a boss who has said
things that have made you doubtyourself and wonder if you're
not going maybe a little bitcrazy, because they're pretty
convinced that the real worldair quotes for the viewers is
very different from the one youwere seeing or experiencing. I

(00:22):
know that this has happened tome. And when it usually does, my
spidey senses get triggeredpretty quickly. And when this
happens, I try to turn on mythird person observer scope and
sit back so that I can try tofigure out if in fact, I'm
biased and suffering from alittle bit of cognitive
dissonance is trying to protectme from this information that
I'm getting. Or if I'm actuallybeing gaslit by the other

(00:42):
person. And in personalsettings, when we're being
gaslit. We have some degree offlexibility and how we can
actually handle this. Forexample, if there are friends or
acquaintances, we can call themout, or we can ignore it. But if
it's your boss or your coworker, then gaslighting can
actually have some professionaland financial consequences to
you, especially if there areissues around your performance.
And so I reached out to anexpert on gaslighting, best

(01:05):
selling author and therapist Dr.
Stephanie Sarkis, to learn moreabout how to protect ourselves
and to navigate professionallywhen we are experiencing
gaslighting at work. So welcometo the show today, Stephanie,
thank you for having me on.
Awesome. Now when I did myresearch on you, and you know, I
got to you because you're thegaslighting Pro, because you
have a book about it. And we'lltalk about that later in the in

(01:27):
the show here. I found that inyour background, you also have a
high degree of experience inADHD. And so I'm curious about
how that how that gaslighting inADHD worked together or how it
became a focus for you.

Stephanie Sarkis (01:40):
Well, it started with in 2015, especially
after won in 2016, especiallyafter January 2017, I started
noticing people were gettingmore knowledgeable the term
gaslighting for variouspolitical reasons. And I noticed

(02:00):
that when people were coming inand talking about their
relationships, they were talkingmore and more about emotional
abuse, including gaslighting,which is the idea that you're
with someone that's trying tomake you think that you're
crazy. And therefore, if you'retold you're crazy, then you rely
on the gas lighter, more andmore for their version of

(02:20):
reality. So you become isolated,which is exactly what the guest
later wants. So I noticed peopletalking about that more and
more. And I also noticed a trendthat people with ADHD and
anxiety and depression tended tobe in these relationships more
so than other people. And itappears that gas lighters,
narcissist, sociopaths, theyprey on people are vulnerable. I

(02:42):
also noticed this with peoplethat are grieving. So for
instance, someone that waswidowed, the next relationship
they were in, turned out to besociopath gaslighter I'm not
saying that happens all thetime. But that's what I would
see in my practice. So and Istarted delving a little bit
deeper into it, I found out thatthere was definitely this
pattern of emotional abuse withthe the triangulation and love

(03:04):
bombing, we can talk more aboutwhat that all is. And then that
turned into an article I wrotefor Psychology Today, which is
11 warning signs of gaslighting,and that went viral. So So
obviously, there was somethinggoing on in the population,
they're really getting in tunewith this type of emotional
abuse. And since then, it'sbecome an even bigger
phenomenon. People are realizingmore now and the me to movement,

(03:25):
which was which has been arounda while. But it's, it now has
come to the forefront andespecially now in the news about
Evan Rachel Wood disclosing herhistory of gaslighting and
abuse. So I think it's somethingthat's really come to the
forefront. And I don't thinkit's a word that's going to go
away anytime soon. I think moreand more people are becoming
educated about it, and that thisis a form of domestic violence.

Amee Quiriconi (03:48):
Mm hmm. Yeah, I'm glad you said all that. You
know, because I have always beena you know, on the show,
domestic violence has come upquite a bit in that. Because,
you know, so many people do justkind of dismiss, you know,
words, you know, sticks andstones may break your bones and
words can never hurt you. But wefind out that words hurt
terribly bad and aremanipulative. It's, it's

(04:11):
interesting, because I have hadanother guest talk about ADHD
and adult relationships. And Ihadn't really thought about the
that parent child dynamic thatcan start up between, you know,
I'm sure you know, that board.
The, you know, one person feelslike they have to be the person
in charge of this person withADHD because they're, you know,
again, air quotes, you'reincapable of, you know, doing
anything on their own and thatdynamic and I get answered as a

(04:32):
tip off that something's comingdown the pike. Right, right.
Yeah. So that is so that makeslike a natural intersection to
me. I can totally see how thatthat came up. Now, you know, I
joke about this, it's, you know,some of us received our
psychology degrees online byjust reading a bunch of
articles. But seriously, likeyou said, the term has come up

(04:54):
so often and it's usedgenerically, but is there a good
Definition because I believegaslighting comes in lots of
forms, you know, and so can youhelp break down what how, what
gaslighting actually is and someexamples of what gaslighting
might be from like on thatspectrum. Yeah,

Stephanie Sarkis (05:13):
sure. So gaslighting the term comes from
a play in a movie calledGaslight and that movie was
about man was trying to make hiswife feel like she was going
crazy. So he would dim the gaslights in the house and do other
things, other nefarious thingsto make her feel like she was
losing your mind. So that'swhere the term comes from. And
it is a form of emotional abuse.
And it's where you are, as avictim or survivor, you're being

(05:36):
told that what you saw and heardisn't real, your belongings may
be hidden. And then when youcan't find them, you're told
that you're irresponsible, andthe gas layer must need to take
over for you because you're notcompetent. You are told that the
various family members andfriends have said terrible
things about you, which is atrue but then that isolates you
from them, your support system,and that also works in the gas

(06:00):
layers favor because they wantyou to have all your attention
focused on them. You also can dono, right. So in the beginning
of the relationship, you havelove bombing, which means that
relationships are reallyintensely, and you may be asked
to them with somebody, like thefirst second date. And you're
told me that how wonderful youare. And that's all stuff that
we like to hear. But there's anurgency and an overload to it.

(06:21):
And once you get in therelationship, that's when the
gaslighter drops that mask, andthen you're going from being
idealized, where you can do nowrong to devalue, or you can do
no, right. And that's where theabuse starts. And it's a slow
ramp up. So people ask me, well,how can people stay in these
relationships? Well, it startsvery slowly. It's not like all

(06:42):
sudden you meet somebody, andthey physically abuse you.
That's not how theserelationships work. The way that
abusive relationship works orabusive relationship at work,
for example, it starts out very,very slowly. You know, it's the
what's the saying, is the frogin the frying pan or frog in the
boiling pot or whatever theysay, I never figure out which

(07:03):
one it is the frying pan pot.
Yeah. Yeah, it is. So yeah,Rajat grumble is something that
doesn't involve like, you know,boiling frogs. So, but it's a
gradual turning up of abusivebehavior. So it starts with
maybe making comments about yourparents things, you can't change
that. And then ADHD, you'retold, well, you know, I don't

(07:26):
like the way that you keep goingon and on about stuff. And you
obviously have something wrongwith you and your medicines, not
helping. And so I need to takeover this and the other for you.
It's being triangulated, meaningthat again, you have the gas
later, kind of pitting youagainst family members. And when

(07:47):
you say to them, you know, Ithink I'm going to talk to
somebody about how thisrelationships going, they'll say
stuff like, Well, why bother?
Because everybody thinks you'recrazy anyway? Or, you know, who
are they going to believe me,or, you know, because especially
of gas lighters have a positionof power, they will use that to
their advantage and say, Well,you know, I am so and so. And,
you know, a lot of times, gaslighters are very active in the

(08:08):
community, they're seen as thesepillars of goodness. And people
don't know what goes on behindthe scenes. So they will say
stuff like, Well, you know, withmy standing in the community
who's going to believe you. Sothat happens quite a bit too.
And it does escalate intofinancial abuse or economic
abuse where money is withheldfrom you, you are forced to turn
over your income to thegaslighter. In the case of ADHD,

(08:31):
you'll be told that you don'thave to organize monies, they
need to do it for you, but itturns into a withholding, and
also lack of access to yourfunds. Also, you're told that
this everything is your fault.
So these are people that tend tonot go to couples therapy or
therapy on their own. Becausethey tend to have what's called

(08:53):
ego syntonic personality. Sowhat I mean by that is they feel
like everyone else has aproblem. And they don't. When
they do go for therapy, it'susually go to couples therapy,
and they bring the spouse orpartner and they will tell the
therapist that this person needsto be fixed. So that's what you
usually see. The other thingsthat they do are pitting your

(09:15):
children against you,undermining your parenting.
Having the children if you're ina co parenting situation, they
will have

Unknown (09:23):
the they'll

Stephanie Sarkis (09:24):
do some parental alienation. So they'll
they'll have the kids startcalling you by your first name
rather than mom or dad. You alsosee a lot of again, like this
possession stuff and we talkedabout we're going to talk about
projection but projection meansthat these are people that tend
to be chronic cheaters, becausethey have this narcissistic,

(09:46):
void or space that they need tohave filled with attention. And
so when they feel like anarcissistic supply is dwindling
For example, when yourrelationship is not in the love
bombing phase, they will startlooking for new narcissistic
supply But what they'll do isthey'll project which means
they'll tell you that they thinkyou're cheating, even though
there's been no behavior thatyou've done to tip them off to

(10:07):
that. And they will demand alook at your phone, they will
harass you about it. Becauseagain, the idea is that they're
blaming you for things they did.
And they're also trying to takethe focus off of their behavior.
So you spend time trying tofigure out why they think you're
cheating, you go onto Google andread articles about it, when in
fact, it's that they're justtrying to distract from their
own stuff. If you do confrontthe gaslighter there's hell to

(10:28):
pay, they will flip it around, Iknew tell you that you're being
too sensitive. And they willalso Stonewall you, which means
they act like you don't exist,you'll be in a room with them,
and they will just kind of it'slike you're invisible. And
that's a form of punishment.
It's an abusive form ofpunishment.

Amee Quiriconi (10:43):
Yeah, punishment in quotes. Yeah. Man, I, I've
said this before on other shows,and for anybody that's new here
listening, I get triggered whenI do these episodes, just
because especially when youstart rattling off all the
things that are related torelational abuse and stuff, I
mean, it's just kind of like,you know, sucking sound from my
chest, but it's, um, it'simportant to know. And so then,

(11:09):
I guess the you and you answeredthe projection. So let's, let's
talk about about this, do onlythe extremely malignant
narcissist use gaslighting as atechnique? Or? Or can it be
something like a, like asurvival go to switch mechanism
that a person might resort togaslighting as like as a defense
protection for them when theymay be feeling triggered or

(11:31):
attacked? And the reason why Iask is because I think again,
about IT professionalexperiences, and also dealing
with abusive relationships.
Sometimes the abusers at homedon't show up as abusers at
work, they show up as anentirely different person who
behaves differently. And viceversa. I think sometimes when
people are a little bit moreabusive at work, they might be a
totally different person athome. And so then I'm trying to

(11:54):
sort out, again, in aprofessional setting when I
experience or see or somebody istelling me that hey, you know,
my supervisor is telling me thatnobody likes me at work. And I
don't feel like that's actuallythe case. Does that person have
reason to believe that theirsupervisor is a malignant
narcissist, or just, you know,maybe it's just a heat that
person felt really triggeredthat day, and now just as taking

(12:17):
it out on everybody around them?
Does that make sense? But

Stephanie Sarkis (12:20):
yeah, I will offer I think we need to look at
the spectrum of, of influenceand manipulation and
gaslighting. So if you look atadvertising, that's influence
that's marketing stuff that'strying to get you to buy into
the idea that your life will bebetter if you have those
products. So we exist in a worldwhere that is used to draw

(12:41):
people in, then we havemanipulation, which is a direct
trying to take control oversomething then we have
gaslighting, which ismanipulation, but on a
consistent basis, the purpose isto isolate and control. And
yeah, it can be really trickyquestion, what is somebody
having a bad day? And what'sgaslighting? I think a lot of is

(13:04):
behind the intent is the intentto isolate you is to punish you.
Because people have as as Dr.
House said, on the show house,everybody lies, right. So we
have white lies, then we havethe manipulation lies on the
other end of the spectrum. Sowhat's the purpose? What's the
utility of what they're doing?

(13:24):
Is it to isolate you at work sothat you have no contacts and
you have no backup or support ona project? Is it to make sure
that you are left alone in theoffice so that person has access
to you? Is it that the personkind of whispers really
derogatory stuff to you undertheir breath, and no one else

(13:44):
can hear? So when you addressit, you're told that you're
crazy. It never happened. Sothere's usually a pattern of
behavior but according todefinition, legal definition of
harassment, I'm not an attorney,but as a therapist, the
definition of harassment is itdoesn't matter how many times it
happens if it happens once it'sharassment. So I really
encourage people to look at theeeoc.gov so it's the Equal

(14:05):
Employment OpportunityCommission has a definition of
harassment, and that includesbehaviors like gaslighting, like
emotional abuse, that whetherpeople realize they're doing or
not, there's kind of twodifferent kinds of gas lighters.
There's an escalator that grewup maybe with gaslighting
narcissistic parents. And theylearned that this is how you do
relationships. Because we learnwe watch our parents like a hawk

(14:26):
or caregivers, and we look andsee what are they doing in a
relationship? How does that workin life, and then people get
into relationships or in theworkplace, and this behavior is
no longer working for them. Itworked really well as a survival
mechanism when they were growingup and not so much anymore.
Those are people that mayrealize that they're having
counseling behaviors, and theymay seek out help through
counseling. Now, the other sideof that are people that have

(14:50):
like narcissistic personalitydisorder, antisocial personality
disorder, commonly knownsociopath. And with that,
there's an ego syntonic thingagain, That you're fine,
everyone else is crazy. And soagain, those people are less
likely go for counseling. Andthen there's another subsection
of that where people are doingthis completely intentionally.

(15:10):
The main goal is power andcontrol. Now, it doesn't really
matter what the origin is,because it's still abusive
behavior. And that person stillneeds to 100% on that. But the
origins of it may differ. Andagain, someone that has learned
this behavior from childhood andrealizes that they're having
this behavior as a better shot,at getting treatment and

(15:31):
recovering from it than someonethat doesn't even identify that
it's an issue, or does it onpurpose, and has no desire to
change?

Amee Quiriconi (15:43):
you when you brought up the harassment term,
I mean, to be honest, as you asas I was preparing for this,
talk with you, I didn't evenreally consider that you know,
why? Cuz I think it happens sooften in work that we hear
things said by other people thatit's we accepted as commonplace,
right? We might all accept thatit's crappy behavior, and we
don't want it to happen. Butyeah, we don't think about it in

(16:05):
terms of like, there's a legalstanding and a protection
mechanism that may be there foranybody that kind of goes into
this next question, then,because when I have experienced
or seen and seen this happen,you know, a tendency is, is
we're being told something thatwe know is not true. And so
then, you know, old me my kneejerk reaction was, I'd become
like a defense attorney, and I'dstart pulling out all the emails

(16:25):
and all the evidence, you know,and trying to like, win a second
interaction, right? And then andyou find that, that doesn't
always work. Like it doesn'teven matter how much evidence
stacks that you have there thatgaslighter is not changing their
minds, like they're set in theirways, they'll double down on it.
Yeah, they will. And I've talkedabout that on other topics, too,
of like, you know, kind of wherewe go with that. So, so I try to

(16:48):
fact check myself before Iarrive at a conclusion of
whether or not I'm being gas litor not, or or is this person
actually making a genuine, youknow, critique, that's valid
there. But if we're talkingabout trying to protect
ourselves from harassment atwork, are there other ways or
strategies that we can handlethis that, that helps us? Maybe

(17:10):
if we have to take it to thekind of the HR department and
make a formal harassmentcomplaint, like, how does it how
do we avoid the he said, shesaid, she said, she said, you
know, back and forth.

Stephanie Sarkis (17:22):
Right, so first, know what your company's
grievance processes forharassment. So read your
employee manual, if youremployer does not have something
like that in place, again, go toEEOC, look at the definition of
harassment, there are somecompanies that that are exempt.
So they depends on number ofemployees, something like that.

(17:43):
So you want to look at, youknow, what was said what day it
was said and get direct quotesand document it. And you want to
not document it in an employerowned device. Because if you are
fired, or if you leave, yougotta leave those devices
behind. So make sure that ifyour document and you're doing
it in some kind of encryptedformat on your own device,

(18:04):
that's really important, again,that dates, times and direct
quotes as much as

Unknown (18:09):
possible.

Stephanie Sarkis (18:11):
So then, when you go through the grievance
process, I would also recommendconsulting with the labor
attorney, just to see what yourrights are in the workplace, and
that this does meet thedefinition of harassment. And
then again, go see youremployer's grievance process,
see what they need. Becauseusually, if you're going to file
with EEOC, there's some stepsthat need to be taken place

(18:33):
first. So again, go to your HRdepartment, see what their
processes, bring your evidence.
And again, you have the what'syour saying of you, the
gaslighter says something aboutyou, and you arm yourself with
all this stuff to defendyourself. That's a very normal
reaction. But these are notpeople that react normally.
Right? So, you know, first thingsomeone says somebody like, they

(18:55):
learned this to Trump, it'slike, well, you'll say, no, that
didn't happen. And they'll say,Well, yeah, did and then you
provide proof? And they'll say,Well, you know, that was
doctored. Or then that then thatthe first doctor, then they'll
say, Well, you know, youmisunderstood what I said. And
then eventually it was, well,you're too dumb to figure out,
you know, what I was reallysaying, you know, that kind of

(19:15):
thing. So what Yeah, like sowhatever evidence you present is
not good enough. But if you getsomeone else involved, like
EEOC, or HR, there's one stepremoved from the process. So
there is someone that's morelikely to listen to you,
especially this if it getsaccepted by EEOC and then starts
going up, you know, through thechain of process of harassment

(19:35):
complaints. But usually, LC saysyou have to follow your
workplaces, harassment reportingprocedures, but again, not every
company has those. Yeah, I

Unknown (19:50):
don't mean to look at too.

Amee Quiriconi (19:51):
Well. And the other thing I think about you
is, you know, even in my ownself, my own sense of self is
man, I don't want to be atroublemaker.

Stephanie Sarkis (19:58):
You know, and I think that That's really
common that that we go well, wewant to be nice. And it reminds
me of studies I've done onpeople that were in situations
where they felt that they werebeing threatened. And they were
less likely to leave becausethey didn't want to look rude.
Like, for instance, you're on adate. And the person says some

(20:18):
stuff here, like this is notokay, and you get the spidey
sense, people were more likelyto stay in that situation,
because they didn't want toappear rude, then get up and
leave. And I think that, again,is part of human nature. We
don't like kind of making waves.
So but when you have the EEOCsite up, and you see Wait a
second, this meets thedefinition, even though you're
told that it's not by variouspeople you talk to because they

(20:40):
may be trying to protect thecompany, or it's the gessler
themselves. When you read that,you realize that you are not the
only one, I have a whole chapterin my gaslighting book about
what to do in those cases whereyou're being harassed at work.
And again, harassment doesn'teven mean is directly towards
you, it could be that you heardsomebody say something really
inappropriate. And as a as aperson, that's a bystander, you

(21:01):
have a right to file acomplaint. So again, I
recommend, again, going to anattorney and seeing what your
rights are not the issue withgasoline in the workplace is a
lot of them will do things thatfly just under the radar. So you
can report them, but it doesn'tmeet the definition of
harassment. And companies willnot always take this seriously.
They'll do like a slap on thewrist or something, but they

(21:24):
won't really sanction theperson. So a lot of times,
people who had to just leavetheir jobs, which is really not
fair, because it makes life moredifficult for you. But you have
to look at also what's theemotional cost, and the physical
toll working in this place istaking on you? How is it
impacting your family and yourfriends. And you'll notice that
even though you have to leaveyour job because of this, your

(21:47):
health improves when you leavethat position. So again,
sometimes it comes down to that,that you have to leave your job.
And again, that's completely notfair. But again, these people
can be masters of just flyingunder the radar and looking
great to everybody else.

Amee Quiriconi (22:02):
Yeah, which is definitely frustrating. And
totally, I mean, I yeah, feelingthat place of where you're like
you just hate your work, becauseof you know, what people are
doing or saying or behaving? Isthere a way for somebody to, to
kind of validate, like I said, Ipull out, I look for evidence,
but you know, like, Well, youknow, I felt like I sent these

(22:22):
emails. I know, one thing that Iwould do is, and I learned this
because of being gaslit by in apersonal relationship where the
telling was is, you know,actually nobody really likes
you. You know? Yeah, you know, Igot that a lot. Well, nobody
actually likes you, I have tostick up for you all the time.
So I people just act like theylike you. They don't really
Yeah, really like you. Yeah.
Right. So when I hear comments,or I hear people make comments

(22:46):
like that was to somebody else,you know, for me, I'm just like,
well, I'm gonna go see if that'sactually true. You know, are
there ways in which a person canvalidate? Or do the pass through
the comments through a filter ofsaying, Is this really a a
malignant behavior that I'mexperiencing, and actions I'm
hearing from this person,whether it's a co worker, or

(23:08):
supervisor? Or is there asensitivity test for myself to
just make sure that maybe thereisn't an over response from on
my part, you know, I feel like Ialways have to have these scales
between the two. But when peoplehave been in abusive situations,
I feel like I'm more like, I'mreally on the scales, because I,
you know, I don't want to be inanother abusive situation. But I
also know that my abuse historymakes me you know, flare up a

(23:32):
little bit faster there. And so,you know, suggestions and
strategies, how do you know ifyou're really being gaslit? Or
how do you know if it's reallycritique and it's not, you know,
they're like, some self checks.

Stephanie Sarkis (23:44):
But one thing that I'd say that also ties into
how do you protect yourself atwork is make sure you get
everything in writing. So ifyour boss comes by and says, can
you work on this project, justsay, Can you shoot that to me an
email? So and we talked aboutADHD to that, make sure that you
have a paper trail? And alsohave your boss because he says,
No, I didn't ask you to work onthat project. I asked you to
work on something else, becausethat's a classic with gas

(24:05):
lighters, they'll switch thingsup on you, you can go Nope,
here's the email. So a lot of itis keeping documentation,
keeping a paper trail. And yeah,being aware of your history and
your triggers is reallyimportant. And therapy can help
tremendously with that,particularly a cognitive
behavioral therapy has beenfound to be quite helpful. And
also acceptance and CommitmentTherapy and dialectical behavior

(24:26):
therapy, if you've been throughtrauma, like an abusive
relationship, and the more thatyou realize what your triggers
are, the better you're also ableidentify when you're being
treated appropriately. And ifsomeone says to you, well, no
one likes you anyway, that'sinappropriate, no matter where
it comes from, or, you know, theclassic Well, you know, they
felt that the but you know, Ithink that you know, I don't

(24:50):
know if I totally agree withthem, but they said this about
you, you know, that again, is anappropriate because it's those
people's responsibility to tellyou that something bothered
them. That's It's not yourproblem. Yeah, what I usually
say is what other people thinkabout you is none of your
business. Right? So if someone'sacting as like the messenger of
some horrible stuff, and he saidabout you, I would just assume

(25:12):
that it's not true. Becauseunless you hear it from that
source, you really don't know.
And you always have, you know,people who may not be nurses,
but their drama stirs at work.
And they love to see dramahappen. And so they will, again,
pit people against each other.
So really take into account whensomeone's giving you third hand
information that that isprobably not accurate. Because
what they also want you to do isgo to the source and say, How

(25:34):
could you say that about me? Andyou know, the course the source
says, I never said that, butthen you're upset. So if you
have someone transmitinformation to you go, you know,
Okay, first, I'm not sure thisperson actually said this?
Because did they come up to meand say this? No. Is it worth
talking to this person? Or can Ibe reasonably assured that they
didn't say that, and usually,most of the times, I can be

(25:55):
reasonably sure they didn't saythat. But it's really important
to listen to your gut instinctto your intuition. If something
doesn't feel right, it'sprobably not. And sometimes it's
not so much as this personnurses or gaslighter, it's more
that, are they treating me in arespectable, respectful, and
kind manner? If they're not,then some stuff needs to change.

(26:18):
So it's not even if they have adiagnosis or where they you
know, are they on the malignantend is just are they treat me
with respect. And the otherthing is that just because you
treat someone respect doesn'tmean you're gonna get it back.
And, again, it's, I think, forpeople, especially if we talk
about ADHD, and depression,anxiety, it's people are more
vulnerable. And so I think thatif you expect someone to treat

(26:43):
you exactly the same way, it canbe a real letdown when they
don't. So it's important to lookat that and say, is it just that
they didn't meet what I wantedthem to meet? Or do they do
something malicious? Now,there's malicious and there's
also ignorant, and both of themare not good. So you still have
the right to say, hey, what yousaid, hurt me. And what the

(27:05):
reaction is to that will tellyou everything you need to know,
if it's a healthy person, yousay, hey, that thing you said,
hurt me. The person usually saysI'm sorry, I didn't realize, you
know, I'll make sure that Idon't bring that up again. And
that's it. But if the person hasgaslighting tendencies,
manipulative tendencies, they'llput it back on you or you didn't

(27:25):
see that or you didn't hearthat, or what are you talking
about? You're crazy. You'll seea lot of the defense strategies
thrown at you, including, andalso in this, this kind of says
a gasoline stuff apart is theywill completely fluid around to
something that you did. Andthat's a tip off, so when you
confront them,

Amee Quiriconi (27:44):
yeah, yeah, I was gonna say that's the trigger
part. Right? They're like, yep,nope. The turnaround in the
conversation. Well, but you didwell,

Stephanie Sarkis (27:52):
yeah. Right.
Well, you didn't. And they neverapologized. gasifiers versus
never apologize. No, they do.
It's, it's in a snarky kind of,Oh, I'm so sorry. You know, like
that kind of thing. So inbasically inappropriate behavior
towards use inappropriatebehavior. And again, when you
talk to that person, say, hey,what you did hurt my feelings?

(28:15):
You'll see the reaction again,is all you need to know. Yeah,

Amee Quiriconi (28:18):
yeah, you brought up the thing about the
paper trail in the writing. Andthat, that actually resonated
with me too, in connecting it tobecause I had not made that
connection directly. Whensomebody you know, I have years
of project management experiencebehind me, I love everything in
writing, you know, it comes fromengineering and learning how to
cover your ass, right? Like,it's all got to be documented so

(28:41):
that you can't go back. That'swhy I'm a defense lawyer when it
comes to issues. But I didnotice, you know, that I have
ran into people that every timeyou try to get them to commit
something to writing it, theyjust refuse and just won't do
it. And I've heard also, and Iwant to share this just for
people that may like this mightbe language that they'll hear
before, like, I shouldn't haveto you need to put it down? or
Why should I tell you how to dothis, this, it's your job to

(29:03):
figure this out, you know, thiskind of reluctance to ever
really want to document and tohave something to go back to and
it being dismissed, again, issomething that you should do, or
it's unnecessary, because youshould be more competent at what
you do, or more experienced, orwhatever other words that they
might want to use. Does thatsound like a familiar? That's
what you document

Stephanie Sarkis (29:23):
I asked. so and so. And this is particularly
an issue with coworkers, youknow, I so and so to please put
that in writing. And if theyrefuse to, then you write down
so and so refuse to put this inwriting. And then you send out
an email saying, per you know,your comment of not being able
to write this down. I'mreiterating what I said And
please, by the end of the day,or please, next couple hours, if

(29:45):
you could tell me, you know, ifyou could verify this is what we
talked about. So then again,you're setting up kind of a
double paper trail you'reputting in your journal, this is
what was said on the stage. Andthen you also have the email
being sent to them and you'regiving them a timeframe saying
please let me know I'm making areasonable timeframe. Now. That
goes The next five minutes. Butyou know, by the end of the work
day, please verify that this iswhat we discussed. Now, if you

(30:06):
have accommodations, like if youhave ADHD, anxiety, depression
in the workplace, you havingthings written down maybe one of
your combinations, so you wantto check that too if you're
covered under Americans withDisabilities Act in the
workplace. And that's a wholenother thing to talk about. But
so you may be entitled to havingthings written down. And that
may be actually violation ofyour rights as someone with a

(30:29):
disability to not have itwritten down. So that's, that
gets into more and that's why weconsult in the tray specializes
in ABA. But again, your documentthat someone refused to put that
in writing, I also want to addto before I forget is that make
sure that you're never alonewith the gaslighter at the
workplace, because they will tryto sometimes get you alone, make

(30:49):
sure that you're the only oneworking after hours, they'll
say, yeah, group of people, theother teams working after hours,
and you show up, you're the onlyone there. Or everyone sent
home, you didn't know that andall sudden you're come by your
cubicle and places empty. So youwant to make sure that you're
never left alone with the guestslater, because you will not have
a witness present. And if thegas lawyer does want to talk to
you have a witness present. Andagain, sometimes the boss will

(31:12):
say, well, you don't need awitness why, you know, I'm not
allowing that you can say no, Ithink it's best for everybody,
you know, they can just, youknow, transcribe everything. And
if they refuse that someonepresident again, then you have
to look at him document, andthen go to HR, but you really
want to avoid being alone withthese people, because they will
completely flip that around onyou.

Amee Quiriconi (31:29):
The siloing.
familiar, unfortunately, withthat aspect of it, too. Now you
bring it up. I mean, again, Isit there and I think about when
the person has power influenceover you and your organization
and their gaslighter. You know,we've talked about kind of the
protection mechanisms and stufflike that. And as you said,
sometimes you just have to makethe decision, is this the right
environment for me, especiallyif there isn't anything going on

(31:52):
to address the gas lighters,behaviors and actions? So let me
ask you this question here. Whathappens if you are the HR team
and you see conflict within yourorganization, and that you've
got a perpetrator a gas lighterin the company? You know, is
there things in the professionalsetting that can be done to? I
know, you can't send somebody totherapy that doesn't want to go

(32:15):
and expect them to get anythingout of it? But are there
protections for somebody whodoesn't want to see an employee
being abused with a person maybethat has such a position in a
company that they're not goinganywhere, anytime soon? You
know, how do you bridge the thedisconnect between the two so
that you don't have yourworkforce leaving in mass? You
know what I mean?

Stephanie Sarkis (32:38):
Right?
There's, there's a piece oflabor law, which I can't answer
to, because I'm an attorney, butI'm not an attorney. Attorney,
not Definitely not. And thenthere's the he's like an answer
to therapists, which is we needto have zero tolerance for
harassment, zero. And that meansthat you know, the Board of
Directors has to be on boardwith not tolerating this at any
level in the company. And whenyou have shareholders, you have

(33:00):
to think about too, you know,sometimes you have to put in
terms of bottom line, which isyour shareholders not gonna be
happy, or your business is gonnalose money, and you can get some
lawsuits against you. Sosometimes that's the that's the,
the thing that works is thatthis is going to impact your
bottom line. And these types ofpeople will burn your company
down to the ground, rather thanjust walk away from their job,

(33:22):
that you are on the hook. Andagain, this would be something
in labor law, but but you're onthe hook for somebody harassing
behavior. And do you want thatto be your company culture,
because that becomes yourcompany culture really quickly,
that spreads like wildfire, andalso an age of social media,
that information will go aroundthe world in about two seconds.
And then again, we have the meto movement, people are becoming

(33:43):
much more aware of how prevalentThis is. I remember talking to a
group of women, we were allsaying that we didn't know
anybody that hadn't beensexually harassed in the
workplace. We, you know, I thinkthere was one Somebody said,
Well, I think I have a friendthat was never harassed. I'm
gonna ask her, I mean, it's nota big group. So this is so
prevalent, and so we really needto look at, are we protecting

(34:03):
the employees, because again,you're liable as a company, if
you have someone that's doingthis behavior. And again, you
you will get, you know, wetalked about getting canceled,
your company will get cancelled,you will lose, you know, support
from people and we really needto look at you know, if it's
just the common decency thingisn't isn't enough, which it

(34:24):
should be, then we need toreally look at this is going to
affect companies and whetherthey even exist. Yeah, they're
gonna go through somebodylawsuits, or settlements or
whatever it is. So and I thinkthat means that we need to speak
up for people that that arebeing bullied, that they're
vulnerable to someone that'sharassing them or treat them

(34:50):
inappropriately is that that wehave an obligation to speak up

Amee Quiriconi (34:56):
and do something that's right.

Stephanie Sarkis (34:58):
Yeah. And I think again, like comes in the
company culture too. Is it aculture where you are you are
encouraged to discuss things andthings are done about that? Do
you have a solid code aboutharassment and bullying in the
workplace? Or do you just say,Hey, if you're being harassed
code of HR. So it's reallyimportant that this is a top

(35:18):
down thing that from the Boardof Directors on down there needs
to be an understanding that thisis not tolerated.

Amee Quiriconi (35:24):
Yeah. And you use the word bullying, and it's
the right word, you know, forthis, it's in my brain, you
know, my little gears areturning in my head. And I think
about you know, how do you youknow, how, how do you? How do
you make it safe to bring it up?
Because I think I go back tosafety, right? Like, we don't

(35:45):
know, everybody's histories,personally, we don't know what
their levels of safety andcomfort, you know, are at being
able to make things like this,you know, bring this awareness
up there. And, and when it comesto bullying in business, you
know, there is I'm just a toughbusiness manager, I'm just a
tough leader. I'm just a toughsupervisor, that it's not

(36:06):
bullying. You know, I'm, youknow, I'm allowed as well to be
my, my true self, which ishappens to be an asshole at
times. Right. So he embrace overthe rainbow personality. Right?
Right. And draw that, you know,because I can think of people

(36:27):
that I ran into that if youaccuse them of being a bully,
they'd be very defensive aboutthat. Or they own it. Yeah, or
they own it, too. Yeah, right.
Yeah. Sure. But,

Stephanie Sarkis (36:39):
you know, I'm just telling people what they
need to do. And if they don'tlisten, that's their problem,
right? Kind of the attitudesometimes.

Amee Quiriconi (36:44):
Yeah. And, and they and the culture, you know,
I've seen it also a conflict ofculture where it is we want to
be this type of an organization,but we're definitely at the top
end of this group, not modelingall of that, because we are
exhibiting things that arebullying in nature, and
conversations, just hit my mic,if anybody heard that, you know,
and that are punishing andderogatory, and, you know, just

(37:09):
negate the humanity of a ofanother person, which I am just
kind of sucks. I, if we're, ifwe're in this, it sounds like
when I asked the question there,the really the HR team has to
decide, or in your opinion here,as not a lawyer is that when we
have people that are chronic gaslighters in this way, that there

(37:32):
really isn't going to be muchlike wood, there's no, there's
there's no change for them,like, you know, I mean, do we
throw them into a leadershiptraining boot camp and show them
how to not do it? Or is it abetter bit? Does it seem to be
better that, in your experienceprofessionally, that the
satisfaction and the results arejust not going to be there with
that person, like, it's a hardthing to change out of somebody,

Stephanie Sarkis (37:52):
we need to start from the actual hiring
process, which is we really needto know how this person
performed in previous jobs. Ithink the rule was, previously
in past years, that you wouldjust disclose what times the
person worked at the previousjob. And you didn't say anything
about the performance. I thinkthat's changing now, especially
after there have been somelawsuits, especially after so I

(38:15):
live in the Tampa Bay area, andthere is a case in Tampa of a
work shooting. And the companythat did not disclose or did not
ask about the person's history,the previous company, which
included aggressive behavior,that company was sued, and I
believe they settled with thefamilies so so there may be a

(38:36):
piece again, this training pieceI can not attorney nor I play on
a TV that, that you may beliable if you don't find out
about what this person'sprevious history was, then you
have to look at to have your thecompany being asked what was
this person? Like? Do you havean obligation, I guess the legal
part you have an obligation orform them the person was fired

(38:57):
because of potential bullying orviolent behavior or stalking
behaviors? So there's a questionthat again, I would refer to
people's in House Counsel oragain, labor attorney to find
out what the rights are withthat. But we need to start from
the hiring process on to makesure that someone is hired, that
fits the company culture if youhave a healthy company culture.

(39:19):
So the other piece of that ismake sure you have a healthy
company culture. And there's awhole field of psychology called
industrial organizationalpsychology, and you can hire a
psychologist to consult with youand look at your business 100%
and look at what policies do youhave in place about harassment
policies you have in place aboutbullying? Do you have a company
culture where people can openlyspeak about something? And is

(39:44):
something done about it? Yeah,like it's great to have a
suggestion box or comment box,but if you're not doing anything
about it, what good is it? Soand then also, industrial
organizational psychologists canalso tell you what education
needs to happen in yourworkplace and it needs to be
continual education. just youknow, you get hired, you watch a
video on what you know,harassment is there needs to be

(40:04):
continuous kind of in servicedays, or you think of school,
you know, teachers in servicedays or need to be in service
days where you talk about what'sacceptable behavior and what's
not. And we have to do that wecan't just assume that someone's
going to behave appropriately.
Now, sometimes people will justAce through interviews, and
they'll just look great, becauseagain, they're able to put on
that kind of human suit. If Icall it, I'll give a good place

(40:27):
where they have a demons thatwere human suits. So it's like,
you know, they were they weretheir human suit, and they look
like they're totally fine. Butthen once they're given like,
the keys to a power, then thenthat starts, you know, kind of
fading away and the innernarcissist comes out, but we
need to be really good atpinpointing What are the signs
that someone might be headed inthat direction, if they're

(40:52):
hired, and the company? Thereare various questions you can
ask. And you again, you have tomake sure that these are legal
questions. But things like tellme why you left your last job.
If you have someone that tellsyou stuff that blames everybody
except they don't talk abouttheir own experience. That's a
red flag. Yeah, so they saywell, my boss said this, my boss

(41:13):
said that there's a way toappropriately say, I didn't
agree with some things that werehappening or you know, I filed a
complaint, this person harassingme, there's there's been that
and then something the persondid they start blaming everybody
else for it?

Amee Quiriconi (41:29):
Yeah, I did. I was the director of recruiting
at a company for a period anduse psychometrics and also that
kind of growth minded questionsand accountability questions and
stuff like that, because you'reright. The person who comes in
and you know, is been perfecttheir entire career, and it's
just been everybody else'sproblem is like,

Stephanie Sarkis (41:47):
well, people have about psychometrics too,
because that's tricky. Sopsychometrics. And what we're
referring to is psychometrics isthe you know, assessment tasks,
and personality tests. Peoplethat are trying to put up a
really good front can fool thosetests. So I wrote an article for
Forbes that said, you know, ifyou take the MBTI, Myers Briggs

(42:08):
for work, it just means youreally like taking tests. It
doesn't mean that what it tellsyou is accurate. So I think we
really need to be careful if wedon't rely on psychometrics
only, which I know thatcompanies usually don't do that
they have a whole bunch of otherstuff. Right. But those are not
always an accurate view. I thinkthe big five tests, which talk
about agreeableness, and Iforget what the other four are

(42:30):
conscientiousness? Yeah, youknow? Yeah, that was found to
be, I think, a research prettyvalid task. But again, you have
people that are going to answerthat the way they think it needs
to be answered.

Amee Quiriconi (42:43):
Yeah, gaming it.

Stephanie Sarkis (42:45):
Right, right.
And there, and there are sometests that do have ways to
determine through the answers assomeone is possibly being
consistent with their answers.
But you will have people thatyou know, will look really good
on paper. And again, that'swhere we really need to look at
what were the circumstanceswhere they worked before. Their

(43:05):
little tells. So if you have tolook at also when they arrived
for an interview, what is theirbehavior? How do they treat the
front reception person? Thattells you like, how do they
treat people, where they feellike they have nothing to gain
by being nice, that person.
And you'll see that people likeI think I've like when people go

(43:25):
to restaurants, you know, thebefore time we used to go to
restaurants more often. So whatis that? Yeah, before time. Look
at how the person treatswaitstaff or servers, they will
usually treat them poorly,because they feel like they
don't really have anything togain from being nice to them.

(43:47):
That's the mindset. So you needto look at how do they treat
other people starting from thetime they walk in the door to
when they go through theinterview process. And if
anybody in the team is doing theinterview gets any kind of sense
that this is not okay, thatneeds to be listened to. And the
person needs to not be told,well, you know, I don't know, I

(44:07):
think they're still pretty goodbecause they can do this, this
this for us. Now someone says,there's something going on with
this person that I don't thinkthey're a good fit, we really
need to listen, because ninetimes out of 10 or 9.9 times out
of 10, that person is not goingto be a good fit. And again,
that's something that comes fromthe Board of Directors on down.
What is tolerable behavior,what's not tolerable behavior,

(44:28):
and that needs to be veryclearly defined. And if there's
something in the board ofdirectors, that is exhibiting
bullying, or gaslightingbehavior, then that person is no
longer on the board ofdirectors. I mean, that's,
that's the point we have to getto where, you know, again, it's
from the top down that this ideaof people are gonna be treat
with kindness and respect, needsto be adhered to, and saying to

(44:50):
somebody, hey, I'd always agreewith this point. That's not
harassment. So you know, I thinkit's also important to let
people know too when these kindof in service trainings saying
your opinion on something isn'tharassment, if you just say,
Hey, I disagree with this, andthis is why that's not
harassment that's having opendialogue. But I think we all
kind of know what harassment iswhen we see it. We also need to

(45:14):
say to that, you know, this isthis is how you say something,
if you don't agree withsomebody, you can agree, you can
not agree with somebody andstill treat them with kindness
and respect. And that's where weget into the person saying,
well, this is just mypersonality was natural thing,
that I'm that now that's notacceptable. You can, it takes
such little effort to be kind,it really does very little

(45:35):
effort. So you can say youropinion without being a jerk.
And that we really need to holdpeople accountable.

Amee Quiriconi (45:45):
Yeah, I agree.
I, you know, several commentsthat, you know, came through my
mind that, you know, we mighthear or people might hear at
work is, you know, the, the kindof the underhanded threats to
your job, you know, why do Ihave you around if I could get
it from somebody else, you know,in order to kind of stir up
behavior to, you know, get youto kind of step up or whatever.
The inappropriate motivation.

(46:06):
Yeah, right, inappropriatemotivation and fear. And so that
makes me you know, as I'm, youknow, kind of reflecting on this
conversation, and I'm thinkingabout, like, what are the
takeaways for listeners andpeople working in organizations
is to think about, you know, anexercising and understanding
like, do you have a defined antiharassment bullying gaslighting

(46:26):
policy? Like, do you have youhad a conscious conversation
about how it looks? What are thewords that are used? How is it
used, you know, as a, quote,motivational tool or punishing
tool, you know, in management,and supervisors? Is this going
to be something that we're goingto allow everybody to do, and
because sometimes the businesseshave difficulties that they've

(46:48):
never really kind of codified ityet. So then it's too great a
certain force, right, you haveto kind of come in and say,
we're, this is something that isimportant, it does affect the
well being of the employees andthe relationships that we have
with one another, ourperformance as a company. So we
should take some time to putsome arms around to put a
container around this topic andunderstand what's acceptable,

(47:11):
what's not acceptable, what arewe going to do when we hear it
or see anybody in the company?
You know, kind of violatingthat. And I think that this is
what we're talking about issomething that doesn't
specifically get addressed. Itkind of gets tolerated. spoken
to bitched about around thewatercooler complaint, you know,
I mean, whatever it is, thatnobody ever feels like that
there's anything they canactually do about it, because
you go to HR, and they're likeI. And that's

Stephanie Sarkis (47:37):
right, right.
And that's for industrialorganizational psychologist
comes in, where they canactually help you formulate a
policy of anti bullying and antiharassment. And because HR needs
to be able to do their job ofmonitoring this, because if your
employee manual says, if youfeel like you're being harassed,
go to HR and HR goes, Well, wedon't really have procedures for
that, that company is probablyliable for not having that, you

(47:58):
know. So, again, you need tolook at the fact that you may be
opening yourself up to legalliability. And again, non
attorney. You know, I haveworked with companies that, you
know, you look at theirpolicies, I'm like, yeah, your
policy isn't really a policy, itdoesn't really have anything
behind it as to what theprocedures are for if this does
happen, you know, it's good tosay, Hey, we're a workplace that

(48:21):
doesn't tolerate harassment,bullying, but what are the teeth
behind that?

Amee Quiriconi (48:27):
Right, are

Stephanie Sarkis (48:28):
you gonna enforce that? What's the policy
for someone reporting it? Haveyou had incidents in the past
where someone says they reportedit, nothing was done. And that's
where you have to possibly do anoverhaul that whole system as to
what's your employee turnoverrate? And if it's high, why
Could it be that you don't havea culture of belonging, and

(48:49):
respect and kindness towardspeople? And it's also reflected
in and how, how your employeesare paid, and how and you know,
how they're treated and othersthese long, there's micro
aggressions, and we think aboutthat mostly with with racism.
You know, there's little thingsthat like, they're like little
mosquito bites, but they add upover time, I think that's just

(49:10):
me talking about with thecooler, right, is that, you
know, this person said, this,this versus that, and it's the
building up, you know, just likewe talked about relationships,
there's a building up of thesemicroaggressions. And and I
think that's what I think needsto be addressed, too, is that
what do you do when it's aproblem behavior may not be the
definition of harassment, butyou still shouldn't tolerate it.

(49:31):
Hmm. And, you know, again,people that fly under the radar,
why are they flying under theradar? Are the policies not
tough enough?

Amee Quiriconi (49:39):
Right. And the inertia, I mean, this is like
one of those things like wecould have a beer and talk about
this for a while, you know, youknow, I actually was writing
about this this morning that,you know, sometimes people
benefit from the inequities thatexist in businesses. Oh,
absolutely. So I don't want tochange it because it still works
in their favor, you know, right.

Stephanie Sarkis (49:58):
Right. And I think that's when we get into Do
we have diversity in thecompany? Do we have diversity of
the board of directors level? Dowe have representation? Because
Yeah, for for, you know, peoplethat have entitlement in why
change stuff because things areworking great for them. But I
think for a lot of companies,you know, if they're not doing
it out of just human decency,you really need to look at

(50:20):
what's your liability, yourbottom line. You know, again, it
should just be that you're goingto do this because you're,
you're a decent company. Andthere are companies that are
decent, but you got to look atyou know, if that doesn't work,
then you got to do thepractical, then you then you
consult an attorney, and go, youknow, hey, what's your liability
for this? But again, it's aboard of directors on down if

(50:41):
you get some of the board ofdirectors, that's known, you
know, as a harasser, like Ithink like Harvey Weinstein, you
know, if they are being kept onthe board, what does that say to
everybody else in the company,it says that they're not
listened to? It says that you'retolerating that behavior. So you
really need to look at that,because shareholders can turn on
you. And so that's the otherthing to look at, too, is that

(51:03):
you really need to look at,again, if it's not just common
human decency and human rightsthat you're going to start
working on this you need to lookat, you may be liable. And this
may start costing a lot ofmoney. So really important to
look at that. And if you'reworking for a company like that,
can you speak up? Is somethingdone about it? Are you listened

(51:24):
to not only do you speak up? Andare you listened to? Hmm.

Amee Quiriconi (51:27):
Yeah, I agree.
Two different things. Yeah.
Right, you get to safely walk inthe office and file your
complaint, but there's notraction or anything, you know,
right.

Stephanie Sarkis (51:37):
And then you're known as a troublemaker.
And I think that's the reasonwhy a lot of people don't report
is because they don't want to beseen as the person that you
know, reported. And then they'reseen as, you know,
whistleblower, or, you know,because whistleblowers are good,
I'm not saying that. But youknow, they're they're called
that in the workplace are calledthe troublemaker, because there
was, there was no follow updone. And that's really damaging

(51:59):
to a person. And I think if youhave a past history of
harassment, or trauma, abuse,that can really trigger PTSD
symptoms, when you reportbullying, and you're not taken
seriously, it really brings upthat past history of you
experiencing that a relationshipor in another workplace. And,
and that's why I also recommendif this is happening, to seek

(52:21):
some counseling, because I thinktherapy is really helpful for
getting through that if it istriggering PTSD, because it's
very difficult to work to yourpotential when you're having
flashbacks. And you're, andthat's being triggered by what
you're going through. So Ireally recommend talking to
someone, I think anyone has gonethrough trauma, I think therapy
can be helpful.

Amee Quiriconi (52:39):
Yeah, no, amen to that. It because that's
definitely you know, even theyou know, even if you feel like
you're robust, and you've got itall behind you, and you've been
working through it, it doesn'ttake much with the right
combination of words fromsomebody in the context to just
amp it up and trigger you allover again, especially right
through abuse, for sure.

Stephanie Sarkis (52:57):
And maybe we should talk about what that
means for triggers, cuz I knowwe use that word a lot. But
triggers are, there's somethingthat happens, somebody says
something, and you go back toyour abuse, like you can have
flashbacks, or you go back tothat time and place with that
person, the previous person thatdid this behavior, and you can
have kind of this explosion offeelings, whether that's terror,

(53:22):
whether it's anger, and it'ssomething that we really need to
pay attention to that we allhave different triggers,
especially if you have a historyof trauma.
So that's what I mean bytriggers is something that
reminds you of the behavior ofyour trauma. And so when we look
at things like you know, on alot of shows, it says, Your
Trigger warning, you know, forfor, like self injurious

(53:44):
behavior, eating disorders, andbecause the idea is, is that
that can bring up those, thosefeelings that sometimes we the
trolley have gone through, wehave locked away those memories,
so we're able to function day today. And sometimes when we hear
somebody say something or seesomething, it's the right key to
unlock that memory. And thenthat comes back and it can come

(54:06):
back and huge waves and knockyou

Unknown (54:07):
down.

Stephanie Sarkis (54:08):
So it's really important to be aware of what
your triggers are. And to knowthat when it's happening to be
able to do some some immediateself care strategies.

Amee Quiriconi (54:18):
That's a good that's a good thing. Now, yeah,
as a person who does thatmyself, definitely, it's helpful
to be able to navigate this. Nowyou wrote a book, I want to give
you a chance to talk about thatcalled gaslighting. And so tell
everybody about what's in thebook beyond what you and I just
spent an hour talking about,that people can get through
through reading it and, and comeaway with sure it's every

(54:41):
chapter is about a differentaspect of gaslighting. So as I
mentioned, there's a wholechapter on gaslighting in the
workplace, what your rights are,

Stephanie Sarkis (54:47):
what laws back you up, what the processes for
reporting those what the EEOCguidelines are, there's also a
chapter about gaslighting inyour family, because we can't
always completely cut offcontact with gas lawyers as you
talked about at work. We're infamilies or there's a chapter in
CO parenting with a gaslighters. If you have a kid with
someone, you can't completelycut them off sometimes either.
So there's also a chapter ondating, and what are the red

(55:12):
flags to look for how toidentify if you're in a
gaslighting relationship, andthat could be again at work at
home friendships. Again, there'salso chapter on friends and
neighbors that you may be livingnext to people that you would
not have chosen to live next to.
So how do you deal with thatwhen there's some gaslighting
behavior going on there. There'salso a chapter on what to do if
you think you might begaslighting. So again, I think

(55:34):
that's something that's notaddressed as much as what
happens when you realize thatthe pattern of behavior that
you've had in relationships,whether that's at work, or at
home, is no longer beneficial toyou or other people. And that
gets into your family of origin,gaslighting and narcissism.
There's also a chapter ongasoline in society. And in our

(55:54):
previous administration, we hada guest later in chief. So we
talked about how gas lighters,manipulate people into in order
to take control and to createchaos. And we see this on a
global scale. And, and then wecircle back to again, what can

(56:14):
you do about this? How do youheal and recover from it? If you
realize that you've been in aguest relationship, or you've
been working with someone'sgaslighter? What can you do to
heal yourself and also changeyour environment so that it's
more conducive to better qualityof life?

Amee Quiriconi (56:38):
Good stuff, highly recommended. I'll have
links to the book in the podcastnotes for anybody that's
listening here so that you'll beable to zip right over to
purchase it and be able to learnmore I like I said, I think
that, you know, we, we do runinto it. And I appreciate that
you have the chapter also on howto know if you've done it
yourself, because like I hadasked the question, it's not

(56:58):
always the malignant narcissiststhat use it, they use it a lot.
They're very skilled at it. Butsome of us that especially if we
had a family dynamic, a familyof origin dynamic where it was
protection mode, it was killerbe killed mentality, we end up
sometimes picking up thatbehavior, which makes me feel
hopeful that sometimes when werun into it in the workplace,
from a co worker, or somebodythat's in a supervisor position,

(57:21):
that they may be one of thosepeople, the ones that kind of
leaned into it, not realize it,and you might be able to get
that raise that awareness levelto get them to change. However,
it's not our job to change theworld. Right? Right. And people
are still 100% responsible fortheir behavior. It totally
totally responsible for it. And,and so that's why, you know, for

(57:43):
me, personally, I like anorganizational view of this,
like, you know, can a companystart to look at that
differently and to be able tounderstand whether or not who's
doing it and how we can correctit if possible, and then have a
boundary of it's not beingcorrected, and we're going to
make a decision even if it's ahard one to let good people go,
you know, good people air quotearound that again, you know,
high performers go because theyare gaslighting everybody around

(58:04):
them. And that's not good. Soawesome. Well, thank you so
much. I Oh, you're welcome. Thisis a great conversation. Yeah.
Thanks so much for having me onthe podcast. Yeah, this is cool.
And I'd like to be able to, youknow, bring you back on. There's
so many other topics to talkabout and stuff that this was
fantastic. So I appreciate you.
Oh, you're welcome. You'rewelcome. Cool.