June 18, 2025 • 39 mins
What happens when your perfectly planned Christian life falls apart? Cathy knows the terrain of disappointment, having navigated divorce, health challenges, and shattered expectations despite "doing everything right." Yet rather than abandoning faith, she discovered something richer: an authentic relationship with a God who reveals Himself in every season, especially the difficult ones.
Growing up as the oldest of six children with parents active in ministry, Cathy learned early to discern God's voice. Her breakthrough came through a simple yet profound insight: "Just say yes to God every time he asks you and no to the devil every time he asks you, and you'll end up doing all God has called you to do." This approach freed her from the paralysis of trying to decipher God's master plan and instead embraced a responsive relationship with Him.
Whether discussing her popular blog "Graceful Musings," her passion for Hebrew language, or her concerns about consumeristic Christianity, Cathy combines thoughtful theology with practical wisdom. For anyone navigating disappointment, deconstruction, or spiritual uncertainty, her story offers a refreshing alternative to both rigid religiosity and faith abandonment—a third way of profound relationship with a God who still speaks, moves, and reveals Himself today.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
Welcome back to one on one with Mr U.
Of course I'm your host, mr U,in the studio with us.
Kathy Colbert-Garland.
She's an author of anoutstanding book, revelationship
Transforming the Immense withChrist.
She did a book for her father,dr Randy, and she does a whole
bunch of other stuff.
We were just talking about that.
She's a mother extraordinaire,former vice president of a
(00:40):
software company.
She's done so many differentthings.
We're going to try to get intoit as much as we can with the
time that we have.
But, kathy, great to have youon.
How are you?
How are things over there?
Speaker 2 (00:50):
I'm great, I'm great, you're right.
Motherhood, absolutely, there'sso much stuff going on.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
You're doing plenty, but we've got to get into a very
interesting life and I want totry to extract as much as I can
with the time that we have.
But as customary, I always askour guests to describe your
upbringing and your childhood.
For some folks that'striggering, but most of the time
that goes well, so we're readyfor it either way.
But describe your childhood andyour upbringing for us.
Let us know who you are.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
Well, I'm the oldest of six, so my father and mother
were hippies who were saved andsort of moved in their life in
the Jesus movement.
So they love children.
My dad is a children's pastorlater became an associate pastor
.
So they love kids and so theyhad a lot of them and to oldest.
So that means I'm the top ofthe heap Right and I do love
(01:41):
siblings.
Know it.
When we play games and thingslike that there's a little
competition there I'm the top ofthe heap right, and I do let my
siblings know it.
When we play games and thingslike that, there's a little
competition there.
I may not be the favorite, butI'm definitely the oldest, so
growing up You're the favorite,the red one.
Oh, there's definitely afavorite.
It's everybody's favorite.
She's the youngest Name's Laura.
She's the baby.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
So it's everybody's favorite.
Speaker 2 (02:11):
We we're honest about it.
You know it's everybody'sfavorite um, yeah, oldest one
boy.
You can feel very sorry for him.
All the rest of us yes, yes anduh, but he's all man like, he's
in the military and things likethat.
So we grew up in a very relaxedatmosphere, home, if will, but
also very much in the church,and so, my dad being a pastor,
my mother being very committedto loving God and loving people,
(02:31):
we constantly had thisrevolving door of people coming
into the house, needing help,loving them, serving them, and
then, you know, they go away, gothrough the rest of their life.
We did this for many, manyyears.
So I saw Christianityexemplified in a real, authentic
way by these two.
My parents, who love God, lovepeople well and would always
(02:56):
look for the people on thefringes who were being
overlooked brought into the fold.
Later they adopted three morepeople, three more children, and
so nine altogether technicallyis what I claim as siblings.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
So that was my life yeah, somebody on our show
specifically but even in my life, outside of the microphone
people who have parents thatwere active in ministry when or
(03:30):
before they were born.
They usually experience certainchallenges because they're kind
of being pulled along into thiswhirlwind that we call ministry
.
What do you think was thebiggest challenge that you
recognized for yourself growingup, being a part of this
whirlwind?
Speaker 2 (03:47):
I think the biggest challenge was finding my place
in it, because there's so muchand you don't want to say yes to
everything, you just want tosay yes to what God wants for
you.
I think I struggle with findingGod's will for my life, which
was this sort I went toconferences, I read books, I did
all these things like what'sGod's will for my life, which
was this sort of I went toconferences, I read books, I did
(04:08):
all these things like what'sGod's will for my life, and it
kind of drove myself a littlebananas actually with it.
And it wasn't that, whatever itwas, I was going to say yes to
it.
I just didn't know what it was.
And I could preach, I can teach, I can sing, I can do whatever
you want me to do.
But what do you want me to do?
You know?
Kind of a thing.
And it wasn't until FuchsiaPickett who's dead now and she
(04:29):
must've been 99 when I saw her.
She's this lady teacher in thebody of Christ, one of the best,
best preacher teachers, womenteachers I've ever heard.
She said you want to know God'swill for your life?
And I was like, yes, yes, I'mready, I'm ready.
And she said just say yes toGod every time he asks you and
no to the devil every time heasks you, and you'll end up
(04:51):
doing all that God has calledyou to do.
I was like is that it and thatfreed me.
I was totally freed from thatpoint on.
Okay, I'm going to say yes toGod and no to the devil.
We're going to do this, andthat has been actually a very
good sort of arc to my life,just saying yes Every time he
(05:13):
said to do something, whetherit's to write a book or to tell
somebody or to stop a strangerand to tell them that God loves
him and give them sort of whatwe would call a word of
knowledge or a word of wisdomthat he's downloading to us, to
them, just just for them toprove to them that he sees them.
You know those kinds of things.
So I think that freed me.
Speaker 1 (05:35):
OK, I love the idea.
It does sound really simple.
I guess the challenge there isto discern the voices.
I know people who and this isnot people in the church per se,
at least not faithfully wherethey feel like you know this is
a good thing.
So God must want me to havethis because it's good.
I mean, look at it, look atthat car, it's beautiful.
God loves me, so he must wantme to have that right.
So we can twist that and playwith it if we really want to.
(05:58):
But you're not doing that,which is awesome.
But what would you say is itwould like to co-author a book
with your dad?
That's really a rarity.
I don't hear that very often.
What would you like toco-author the relationship book
with your dad?
How was it like?
What was it about?
Speaker 2 (06:14):
It was extremely natural because, if you can
imagine all of us sitting aroundthe table having dinner
discussions every night, we havethis overflow of conversation
and years and years ofconversation.
And what happened was my dadsaid he was listening to me talk
about how excited I was tostudy the Old Testament, which
(06:35):
never has happened before.
I'm a New Testament girl.
That Old Testament is boring,bloody, bloodthirsty, you know.
It's just like oh, do I have toread Deuteronomy again, you
know?
So I was starting out.
Speaker 1 (06:50):
Deuteronomy numbers are the one I'm like.
Numbers in chronic I'm like ifI had to hear another big gap.
I don't know what I'm going todo.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
Yeah, exactly, and I have all the certificates.
I've read through the BibleMany times.
I have the certificates toprove it, like the whole thing.
And I have all the certificates.
I've read through the Biblemany times.
I have the certificates toprove it, like the whole thing.
And I was starting over and Iwas not looking forward to it,
just to be honest with you.
And the Holy Spirit spoke to meand he said look for me, look
for Jesus, look for me revealingmyself.
So I started looking for him.
(07:19):
There's things like I'm the Godwho sees you, I'm the God who
calls you.
I'm the God who sees you.
I'm the God who calls you.
I'm the God who delivered youout of Egypt.
I'm the God who brought you tomyself.
There's all these revelationsof him.
And I was excited and I wastelling my dad about it.
He was like hold on, hold on.
I want you to share this withthe interns at church.
And so I did, and they loved ittoo.
They were like this is a wholenew way to study the Bible.
(07:53):
And I was like, exactly, it'svery exciting.
And so my dad said peoplearen't quite ready for this.
You need to be where God isrevealing himself in their own
story first, and so we startedto talk about that.
Where is God revealing himselfin our stories for the purpose
of relationship?
And he wrote that on the boardrevelation for the purpose of
relationship had the brain fartand accidentally stuck
revelation and relationshiptogether and we stood back and
(08:14):
said, aha, that's what we'retrying to say, that God is
pursuing us for relationship andhe's revealing himself so we
can have a relationship.
And that's why we wrote it.
Speaker 1 (08:26):
I love it.
Revelationship, so we knowwhere that comes from.
I like the idea of that.
You're also writing.
You're still writing a blog,graceful Musings right?
Yes, that's right.
Tell us what's the motivationfor that.
I know that it's providingwomen with some services.
Kind of speak to what GracefulMusic is all about, where it
comes from and why you're doingit.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
I started it when I quit my job, when I turned in my
two months notice as the COO ofa software company, I wrote
down a list, yeah, a list ofthings that I wanted to
accomplish, a bucket list, ifyou will.
And one of the things thathappened was, as I was going
through the two month notice,that I had given everybody else
(09:08):
quit mostly.
I mean, there was like threepeople left, yeah, so they
didn't want me to go, but Ineeded to go.
It was toxic at that point.
I've been there 14 years and itwas time to go and I had no
more rest.
You know, it was very.
Every time I thought of it, mystomach would turn.
You know it was very.
Every time I thought of it, mystomach would turn.
You know it was done, I wasdone, and so I turned in my
(09:29):
notice.
But I wanted to learn how tofinish.
Well, I wanted to finish thejob well, so I Googled it.
I was looking for articles onhow do you finish something well
, and there's nothing out there.
Everybody tells you to go,everybody tells you you
shouldn't stay, but nobody tellsyou how to leave well, and so's
nothing out there.
Everybody tells you to go,everybody tells you you
shouldn't stay, but nobody tellsyou how to leave.
Well, and so I was like, well,it is true, it is.
(09:50):
So I said let me write this asI go through it to kind of
document how am I going to leavethis job that I have served and
loved?
Well, and then, out of that,people were starting to ask
questions.
And then, out of that, peoplewere starting to ask questions
like you could tell that thebasis for my blog, even though
it was started out business, wastheological, like I want to do
(10:12):
this.
Well, because I want to bringglory to God, like that is the
purpose of what I'm doing.
And so people ask me questionslike, while you're in there, can
you answer me, why did Goddestroy Nineveh?
And I'm like, okay, let meanswer that question.
You know, started out, you know,out of my journey, turned into
(10:33):
answering questions, and itprovides really women five or so
minutes of deep theology thatthey can chew on and think on
all day long.
While they're changing diapers,taking care of kids, feeding
mouths, cutting apples, whateverit is we're doing, we can still
be thinking about these higherthings.
The Bible says to think aboutthese things all day long and
(10:56):
dwell on them and it's an honorto kind of puzzle out a matter
the Bible says.
So I'm providing five minutesof deep theology while they go
about their day.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
I love it.
I love the example you used.
It says that your blog provideswomen with a moment of rest and
challenge before those littlefingers appear under the
bathroom door.
I love the vision.
Speaker 2 (11:21):
That's the truth, though Every woman who's
listening knows that that's nottrue.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
Yeah, you can't go to the bathroom.
You can't go to the bathroomwhen people they show up trying
to get in there with you, I'mlike what I'm doing in here you
can't help me do this is mything.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
Lock the door for just five minutes.
Give me five minutes.
Speaker 1 (11:39):
I love it, I love it, I, I love it, I love it.
I want to get so much more intoyour thoughts on prayer and the
current view of the church, alot of things that you and I
shared, you know, pre-interviewchat about religion versus
relationship and a host of otherthings.
I hope we have time to get intoit.
I hope so.
But I want you to kind of jumpinto the first part of your
(12:00):
story.
You talk a lot aboutchallenging with divorce and
health and some things.
Can you get into that a littlebit?
I mean, I think that your storyis going to provide perspective
because people that go throughtrauma of any sort, it seems
like sometimes they live in itso long that it becomes home.
They never find their way outof it.
(12:22):
It's supposed to be a temporarysituation, that's what it
should be.
They become the permanentresidents.
So if you don't mind sharingone part of that before you
start, don't go intodeconstruction just yet.
Kind of get into the first partof what happened with your
family, with the divorce andyour child and everything.
Just kind of get into that andwe'll kind of pass it out and go
(12:43):
from there, go ahead.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
Sure, you're talking about a wilderness season.
You know, I think I was raisedto think that if you go through
something hard, it must be.
This wasn't something from myparents, I just want to be clear
.
But from the charismaticmovement as a whole, I imbibed
that if you were going throughsomething hard, that it must be
because you're out of the favorof God.
(13:04):
And that is just simply nottrue, because God's favor is not
going to make you comfortable,it's going to make your life
extraordinary.
The two are not, they're notconducive to each other.
Joseph's life was notcomfortable, it was
extraordinary.
No, so so this is um.
So going through wildernessdoesn't mean that God has
abandoned you.
(13:24):
So my natural inclination wouldbe to blame him or to have you
know, mean conversations withhim.
Why are you doing this to me?
Question him.
But supernaturally, the HolySpirit causes me to lean into
him as I go through things.
So you're right, I was raisedin the church, I did things
right.
I married a man who seemed likehe was compatible.
(13:46):
I was in the purity culture.
We didn't date, we didn't doanything, we held hands like
that was it.
And then we got married.
And then he was addicted topornography and he needed to go.
So he divorced me.
I'm sitting there, 20 something, got married very young,
something I've I've dotted allmy eyes, crossed, all my t's,
(14:09):
and I'm ended up childless,abandoned.
That is not supposed to happen.
Like a vending machine, god.
If I put in all the differentthings, I'm supposed to get out
a good life, less life, whateveryou want to call it, with the
chickens and the white picketfence and the kids.
And I did not.
Speaker 1 (14:28):
So I don't recall being added in.
All my friends have them.
They're great.
Speaker 2 (14:37):
So, but I think there's that picture that women
have of what we think we'regoing to get if we serve this
God.
And the fact is that may not bewhat you're going to get.
And one it was his choice toleave.
Paul says when they want toleave you, let them go.
And I had to let him go.
I didn't even go to the court.
I didn't do anything because Ididn't want a divorce.
(14:59):
He did so anyway.
The things that kind of come atyou in this season after season,
after seeing hard things, whatthey do is they build character,
and we don't like to hear that,but it's a fact.
So when my first husbanddivorced me, when I lost my
first child in miscarriage, whenthe man I love decided he who I
(15:22):
later married, he's my secondhusband broke up with me for the
third time and then dated somewoman he thought was the one
because she was perfect for him.
When I broke my neck in a caraccident, when I lost another
child, when I waited 10 yearsfor my first child, my son, for
(15:51):
my first child, my son, whatsustained me wasn't willpower or
perfect faith or tyingeverything up in a bow.
It was revelation.
It was knowing the God whoknows me, he sees me, he sees
the injustice done to me.
He is going to declare over mehis banner over me is love, not
desolate woman who's beenabandoned by her husband Right,
(16:11):
ok.
So knowing that sustained meand kept hope alive.
So if your listeners are in anykind of difficult circumstance,
they have to look to God.
What is it about God declaringabout your situation or about
you?
The truth of that and what he'sproviding, like the God who
(16:32):
sees me, means I am seen.
That's important.
Yes, so that's what kept me.
Speaker 1 (16:40):
I love it.
I love it.
Quick point I want to kind ofget into the faith crisis that
you had.
I want to get into that alittle bit.
But for those that arelistening, who may be wives who
are challenging theirrelationship with their husbands
, perhaps they are encounteringor have encountered something
(17:01):
like yours or something likethat seem to be brewing in their
households.
How do you encourage them, evenif they're not a believer like
yourself?
What would you say to them tokind of encourage them through
this period of crisis, orpre-crisis, if you will?
Speaker 2 (17:21):
You know that's a difficult conversation.
If they don't know God, theydon't have a source, so they
need to get that source.
So I'd have to point them tothe Bible, whether they're
believers or not, because thereis source in the Bible that you
know.
Even if they don't necessarilyknow Jesus Christ as their Lord
and Savior, they know he existedand his words were true, and
(17:42):
they ring true for anyone who'sactually listening to read
Jesus's words.
And I would also point them toexamining themselves.
What in this situation?
You can't do anything aboutthem.
You can't change them.
You can't force them.
You can't I tried.
You can't nag them.
You can't drag them tocounseling if they don't want to
(18:04):
go.
So you have to deal withyourself in the whole thing, and
so you have to take it as anopportunity to work on yourself
and do the hard stuff thatyou've been putting off, and I
have been putting things off.
So I had to deal with them.
I had to face them.
Truth, suffering brings outwhat's true, and some of what's
(18:25):
true about you isn't good.
So you're going to have to gothrough it, and I would
encourage people to surrenderthat to God.
All that you are, the good, thebad, the ugly, all that you're
not the good, the bad, the uglyand all that you ever hope to be
or ever have to hope to receive.
You surrender that to God.
(18:45):
He loves you.
That's just what he says.
I have loved you with aneverlasting love.
I love you more than anyoneelse.
So that love is trustworthy andhe's going to make sure that we
have what we need in order tothrive.
(19:08):
Thriving is what he's afterDwelling together.
Thriving Not what makes youhappy, not the cars and the
house and the dream.
Even it might be a good dream.
I had a good dream Kids, family, you know the whole thing is a
good dream, but what he wantsfor us is for us to thrive and
we can trust in that.
Speaker 1 (19:28):
I love that.
I love that.
One thing this idea of well,it's not an idea, but this
concept of trauma and how toovercome it.
It's challenging for a lot ofpeople.
I hear it a lot, whether it bein a coaching session or just in
a conversation, even in thecourse of interviews on this
show.
Tell me what your views are onrelationship and intimacy after
(19:52):
all that you've been through,because a lot of people have
gone through these challengesand they sometimes they don't
even take the time to stop andsit and settle in what they've
been dealing with, to recognizeyou know what this has been
affecting other stuff in my life.
What would you say would beyour view on relationships and
(20:14):
intimacy journey after allyou've been through?
Look, I'll be having somechallenges here.
We're losing you All.
Right, let's get you back inthe box here.
Okay, don't know what happenedthere, but did you hear my
question?
Speaker 2 (20:25):
I didn't hear your question.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
Okay, no worries, no worries.
I'll reiterate it.
After all you've been throughand the challenges of that, what
are your views on relationshipsas a whole and intimacy?
A lot of people kind of gothrough trauma, like I said
before, and they don't reallysit and soak in what's going on
so they can make some sounddecisions to kind of just move
through it.
But the intimacy journey andyour view on relationships you
(20:51):
know have been effective in someway by what you've gone through
, kind of share that and offerany advice you may have to our
listeners who may be dealingwith the same type of scenario.
Go ahead.
Speaker 2 (21:01):
So intimacy is based on trust and we have to know
that.
And you can't really trustsomeone you don't love and then
you don't know.
So the way that a relationshipdevelops is you know someone.
If you know someone and theyare, their character is good and
just dealing with like humans,and you know that they are
(21:27):
honest, integrity, they'remotivated, generally speaking,
by good things.
Obviously they're not going tobe perfect.
That is something that a lot ofwomen are looking for after
trauma.
Is perfection, not perfection,just godliness, like a general
arc and a pointing towardsgodliness.
(21:48):
If you know that, then you canlearn to love that, and then
loving and respecting soundalmost exactly the same in
action.
Now, they're not always, butthey sound the same.
So to know them is to love them, then you can trust them.
And it's really the same thingwith God.
When God says to us you cantaste and see that I'm good, you
(22:12):
can trust me.
First we have to know him, thenwe learn to love him.
The Bible says if you know me,you'll love me, and if you love
him, you'll begin to trust him,and then, if you trust him,
you'll obey him, which I thinkis one of those things that the
church gets wrong because theysay obey, obey, obey and the
person might not necessarilyknow love and trust him yet, and
(22:34):
you have to start with theknowing.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
That makes sense.
I love it.
I love what you're talkingabout here.
I have a question for you also,All listeners who are
interested in Kathy's bookwwwrevelationshipnet OK,
wwwrevelationshipnet, you canget her book there.
(22:58):
What would you say?
I want you to break down yourdeconstruction and
reconstruction story while wehave some time left.
But I want to ask you aquestion first.
Answer that as briefly as youcan.
It's a tough question, I get it.
Do your best to try to condenseas much as you can.
What would you say to theperson who has a question about
whether God speaks to humans ornot?
In this day and time, Does Godstill speak to humans?
(23:21):
What would be?
Speaker 2 (23:22):
the answer to that Okay, so short answer is the
same God who spoke back thenstill speaks.
He doesn't change.
So whatever he did, I reservethe right for God to do again.
And the reason for that isbecause he says I, the Lord, do
not change.
There is no shadow of change inme.
So if he spoke, he still speaks.
(23:44):
If he moves, he still moves.
If he rescues, he still rescues.
So I have no place for atheology like cessation, which
is sort of a fad and has been afad for the last couple hundred
years.
That was not part of the earlychurch history.
The early church fathers had noconcept that God would suddenly
stop speaking.
(24:05):
They would never have acceptedthat fad.
It's a fad.
So God still is the same as hewas yesterday, today and
forevermore.
So absolutely, he still speaksand still moves and still
reveals himself.
So that's the answer to that.
Speaker 1 (24:19):
Absolutely.
Are you able to briefly shareyour deconstruction slash
reconstruction story?
Can you do that?
Speaker 2 (24:28):
You might have listeners who kind of identify
with it a little bit.
I was young, I was 13 when Idid it.
So you know, growing up in thechurch maybe you just hit things
sooner Church abuse, maybe someauthoritative things that I
noticed that were wrong,hypocrisy, people saying one
thing doing another I saw it.
I was there for it, okay.
So I've been there since I wasborn, so I knew these people and
(24:51):
I knew what they were not andwere capable of, and so I told
my parents I don't think thisChristian thing is for me.
And instead of panicking andthis is going to happen to
pretty much everybody inChristianity at some point in
their life they'll have a crisisof faith and you can either A
ignore it, which is not the bestthing, or B?
(25:15):
face it head on, ask goodquestions.
So I told my parents that theydidn't panic.
They took me to the library.
They checked out a whole bunchof books on every religion,
including a bunch of littlereligions that most people don't
even know of.
Like all of them, and I studieda very a full year.
I was homeschooled so we couldput aside certain things and
(25:35):
really hone in on this.
And I studied, I went toconferences, I asked questions,
I read books and I deconstructeda lot of traditional
understanding or traditions madeof men is what I would call
them and got rid of all thoseand went down to the
(25:55):
foundational concepts that JesusChrist is real and wants a
relationship with me.
I started from there and fromthere I began to add on the
things that would promoterelationship.
So I don't read the Biblebecause some man told me so.
I read the Bible because inthose pages is life and him
(26:19):
revealed.
I don't dress modestly becausesome man told me I had to.
I dress somewhat modestly ornormal because I love God and
bring glory to him with my body.
That's just a highly practicalthing.
The men, that's a whole, notherseparation, separate issue.
(26:41):
You know they need to work ontheir eyes, whatever.
But I for me, for myself, amgoing to dress in a way that
honors God.
I don't care about anybody else.
So those are kind of thereconstructing processes.
You know what I believe aboutcommunion might not fit into a
niche that a certaindenomination would find
(27:03):
acceptable.
I think there's a little bitmore to communion, but less than
the Catholics I think there's.
When I come to the table ofcommunion I expect to experience
his presence.
So that's a part of thereconstruction journey examining
the doctrines and theology,understanding them as best as I
can.
So I'm a sort of a Bible nerd.
(27:26):
I wouldn't call myself aseminarian or something like
that.
I'm more of a Bible nerd,understanding as best as I can,
asking for the Holy Spirit, intruth and spirit, to interpret
something for me, to help meunderstand it, reading other
people, reading scholars, takingit in and then eventually
making a decision, but stilleven holding that decision with
(27:47):
some open hands, knowing that Icould be wrong, and I'm okay
with that.
Speaker 1 (27:52):
Absolutely no, I loved it.
I loved it.
Thank you for sharing that.
That's really good.
If anybody has questions aboutwhat we're discussing today, any
questions for Kathy hit us upon fan mail it's our link in our
show notes directly to me.
Send any questions and commentsyou have.
I'll answer those on theupcoming episode.
If you want to jump into thelive chat right now and ask
(28:14):
Kathy a question, the floor isopen.
The door is open.
Come right on in and we'llanswer those as they come
through.
I have two more questions foryou before we close the show out
today.
The first one is they're bothtough questions, but the first
one is a tough one, especiallyfor me because of what I'm
dealing with right now.
But what's your current view ofthe church?
(28:34):
I recently shared a video aboutwhat I believe the
responsibility is, and I don'tmean the physical building and
the people within it so much,but I mean just the overall
responsibility that we shouldhave individually and
collectively as representationsof Jesus Christ in the earth.
And I talk about this kind ofstuff a lot, but when I've asked
(28:57):
this question to believers, somuch stuff comes out because of
the frustrations and what we'refeeling and what we feel like we
should be and we're not.
What's your current view of thechurch, kathy?
You go ahead and share thatwith us.
Speaker 2 (29:11):
Well, I love the church, the body of Christ, so
I'll start there.
But I am frustrated as well.
There are a lot of tears, wheatmixed in with the wheat, and
for a long time I thought maybeit was my job to kind of help
the wheat exit the church.
And then, when that didn'thappen, I exited the church and
(29:35):
I wasn't going for a long timebecause it was just like a lot
of work.
It's a lot of work and it's alot of keeping your heart from
getting offended.
You know that's rule number oneyou can't get offended.
So, it's hard.
It's hard and I didn't fit in ahundred percent, because I'm
not going to just accepteverything hook, line and sinker
(29:56):
.
I'm going to ask questions, andthat makes people leaders
particularly uncomfortable, andI'm a woman who has something to
say and that makes a lot ofpeople uncomfortable.
Right, no question.
So you know it's a little bitfrustrating, but I'm also
hopeful.
There's revival breaking outall over this world, in the
(30:16):
church, outside of the churchand when I say that I mean in
four walls and outside of thechurch, and when I say that I
mean in four walls and outsideof four walls there's a lot of
people recognizing that there'sa third person in that Trinity,
the Holy Spirit, and that theyshould be having a relationship
with that Holy Spirit.
Which gives me hope, becauseevery revival is prefaced by
people suddenly discovering thatthere's a Holy Spirit and that
(30:39):
he should be allowed to make amess of things of their order a
little bit.
Yes, we need to have orderlyservices, but your order is very
different than God's order, sowe just need to get over that.
So I'm hopeful because revivalis breaking out and it's not
being suppressed Like it can'tbe suppressed at this point.
(31:02):
I think we've reached thattipping point.
I do think that the church inAmerica has become materialistic
and sort of consumeringeverything.
They even consume the Bible.
I read through the Bible in ayear.
I read through the Bible in ayear.
I'm like did you apply it?
Did you learn something?
You know it's.
It's okay to read the Biblethrough a year, but no, they're
(31:22):
not applying it.
Obviously so, because they'rejust drinking from a fire hose.
There's no discipleship.
That's a problem to me.
Hardly any discipleship.
Nobody even knows what thatmeans.
Every time I say the worddiscipleship, they point me to
their Bible study.
I'm like that is not the.
Bible.
So we got, we have someproblems and judgment is coming
(31:44):
to the house.
I'm watching it happen.
More and more leaders are lowbecause they have not exhibited
the humility of Christ.
If we have the humility ofChrist, all these things would
be just fixed in an instant, butwe don't have the humility of
Christ.
We don't start with humility.
We have this sort of worship ofmen and women who are at the
(32:07):
top sort of celebrity culture,weirdness and also we have this
escapist mentality that ekedinto the church around the
enlightenment period that we'resupposed to survive until Christ
comes back.
That is not what we're supposedto be doing.
Horrible theology.
Horrible theology.
Right, we got to go out intothe world and restore God's
(32:30):
kingdom here on this earth,meaning I bind up the broken
hearted, I cast demons out ifthey've allowed demons into
their life, I heal the sick orwhatever.
Those are the things we'resupposed to be doing and we
ain't.
So that's a problem.
So I would say those are mysort of main issues.
The other issue I just thoughtof this is the gospel.
(32:53):
I talk to so many Christians whothink that the gospel is their
testimony and I'm like no,that's your testimony, that's
your story.
It's lovely, it's wonderful andit shows God moving.
I want to hear your testimony,but it is not the gospel, the
good news of Jesus Christ, thathe came to this earth to seek
(33:13):
and save the lost, that he diedon the cross to free us from the
burden of our selfish desires.
He rose from the dead to freeus from the curse of death.
Then he ascended into heaven,where he's seated at the right
hand of the father, praying forus, who will follow the trail he
blazed as we are transformedinto that new creation by the
(33:34):
power of the Holy spirit whom hesent as a deposit on his
kingdom to come.
That's the gospel, and I don'tthink a lot of people know it.
Speaker 1 (33:41):
No, not at all.
Anybody want to check outKathy's book
wwwrevelationshipnet.
I'd love for people to come toyou and ask some more questions
about your deconstruction andyour reconstruction story and
what Revelation Ship is.
I hope that they come and chatwith you some more in our in the
(34:05):
comments section on our YouTubechannel under this episode.
I'd love for you to share yourlinks there, kathy, so people
can kind of get a hold of youand be able to reach out and
have these kinds ofconversations, maybe about
graceful musings or just aboutyour story overall or about your
book.
So I'm excited about doing that.
Hopefully help facilitate thatfor you.
I hope that happens for you.
(34:26):
Final question for you.
First off, it's been fun tohave you on.
I've been enjoying this so much.
Hate for it to come to an end.
But this is our final questionfor today and I think I kind of
prepped you for it.
If you're not authoring books,no blogs, no time at the
software company what's Kathydoing?
What's her vocation?
(34:47):
What's her mission in life?
What is she doing with her life?
Is she not doing any of thosethings?
Speaker 2 (34:52):
I wanted to be a professor.
I would be probably that wholeTweety professor writing on the
whiteboard thing.
I would have loved to have been.
What'd you say?
Speaker 1 (35:05):
What are you teaching ?
Speaker 2 (35:06):
I would probably teach Hebrew I love.
I'm sort of a Hebrew geek, soprobably Hebrew.
Speaker 1 (35:13):
You don't like the Old Testament, but you like
Hebrew.
Speaker 2 (35:16):
Well, I guess.
So You're right.
That is kind of inconsistent.
I do love the Hebrew language.
I'm not Jewish or anything likethat but I find it to be
fascinating and I would probablyteach Hebrew or ancient
languages.
I do love ancient languages andI like the history of language
and how it picked up.
(35:37):
This etymology came from thisroot and then together it made
this word.
I think there's a lot to it andI think under the surface of
ancient literature, particularlythe Bible, there's a whole
wealth or trove of informationthat people in the ancient world
would have understood.
That we don't because we speakEnglish, which is a very shallow
(35:58):
language.
English is very shallow,whereas Hebrew is
extraordinarily deep.
Just words like El Shaddai.
Just to geek out for a second,el Shaddai or El Shaddai is what
a lot of people say, but it'sEl Shaddai.
So El Shaddai means people sayit's translated Almighty God,
which isn't a terribletranslation if you're going to
(36:19):
be short, isn't a terribletranslation if you're going to
be short, but it really meansout of my mountain of abundance,
I am your sufficiency.
That's extremely deep you couldspend a whole sermon on that.
Speaker 1 (36:33):
Yeah, I like Hebrew and Greek too, but I don't know
if I want to learn how to speakit fluently.
I've been struggling withSpanish, so Hebrew.
But, kathy, thank you forjumping in here.
This has been a fantasticconversation.
I would hope it's not the last,but when new books come out and
new projects, I'd love for youto jump back on with us and kind
of share what's been going on.
(36:53):
But thanks again, give a shoutout to Mickey Ford For lending
you to us for a little while.
Definitely appreciate that.
And if you're listening, ofcourse Kathy has a book out
wwwrevelationshipnet.
You can get it there.
Of course you can shoot up herlinks in the comments section on
our YouTube channel.
We can reach out to her, askher questions, put some comments
(37:13):
out about the show.
We'd love to hear from you bothabout what you thought about
the show.
But once again, kathy, thanksfor coming in here.
But once again, kathy, thanksfor coming in here.
This has been really fun.
Thanks for your time on this.
Kathy and Mr Yu, we are out ofhere.
Have a great day.
Thanks again for watching andlistening.
Welcome back to one on one with Mr U.
Of course I'm your host, mr U,in the studio with us.
Kathy Colbert-Garland.
She's an author of anoutstanding book, revelationship
Transforming the Immense withChrist.
She did a book for her father,dr Randy, and she does a whole
bunch of other stuff.
We were just talking about that.
She's a mother extraordinaire,former vice president of a
(00:40):
software company.
She's done so many differentthings.
We're going to try to get intoit as much as we can with the
time that we have.
But, kathy, great to have youon.
How are you?
How are things over there?
Speaker 2 (00:50):
I'm great, I'm great, you're right.
Motherhood, absolutely, there'sso much stuff going on.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
You're doing plenty, but we've got to get into a very
interesting life and I want totry to extract as much as I can
with the time that we have.
But as customary, I always askour guests to describe your
upbringing and your childhood.
For some folks that'striggering, but most of the time
that goes well, so we're readyfor it either way.
But describe your childhood andyour upbringing for us.
Let us know who you are.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
Well, I'm the oldest of six, so my father and mother
were hippies who were saved andsort of moved in their life in
the Jesus movement.
So they love children.
My dad is a children's pastorlater became an associate pastor
.
So they love kids and so theyhad a lot of them and to oldest.
So that means I'm the top ofthe heap Right and I do love
(01:41):
siblings.
Know it.
When we play games and thingslike that there's a little
competition there I'm the top ofthe heap right, and I do let my
siblings know it.
When we play games and thingslike that, there's a little
competition there.
I may not be the favorite, butI'm definitely the oldest, so
growing up You're the favorite,the red one.
Oh, there's definitely afavorite.
It's everybody's favorite.
She's the youngest Name's Laura.
She's the baby.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
So it's everybody's favorite.
Speaker 2 (02:11):
We we're honest about it.
You know it's everybody'sfavorite um, yeah, oldest one
boy.
You can feel very sorry for him.
All the rest of us yes, yes anduh, but he's all man like, he's
in the military and things likethat.
So we grew up in a very relaxedatmosphere, home, if will, but
also very much in the church,and so, my dad being a pastor,
my mother being very committedto loving God and loving people,
(02:31):
we constantly had thisrevolving door of people coming
into the house, needing help,loving them, serving them, and
then, you know, they go away, gothrough the rest of their life.
We did this for many, manyyears.
So I saw Christianityexemplified in a real, authentic
way by these two.
My parents, who love God, lovepeople well and would always
(02:56):
look for the people on thefringes who were being
overlooked brought into the fold.
Later they adopted three morepeople, three more children, and
so nine altogether technicallyis what I claim as siblings.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
So that was my life yeah, somebody on our show
specifically but even in my life, outside of the microphone
people who have parents thatwere active in ministry when or
(03:30):
before they were born.
They usually experience certainchallenges because they're kind
of being pulled along into thiswhirlwind that we call ministry
.
What do you think was thebiggest challenge that you
recognized for yourself growingup, being a part of this
whirlwind?
Speaker 2 (03:47):
I think the biggest challenge was finding my place
in it, because there's so muchand you don't want to say yes to
everything, you just want tosay yes to what God wants for
you.
I think I struggle with findingGod's will for my life, which
was this sort I went toconferences, I read books, I did
all these things like what'sGod's will for my life, which
was this sort of I went toconferences, I read books, I did
(04:08):
all these things like what'sGod's will for my life, and it
kind of drove myself a littlebananas actually with it.
And it wasn't that, whatever itwas, I was going to say yes to
it.
I just didn't know what it was.
And I could preach, I can teach, I can sing, I can do whatever
you want me to do.
But what do you want me to do?
You know?
Kind of a thing.
And it wasn't until FuchsiaPickett who's dead now and she
(04:29):
must've been 99 when I saw her.
She's this lady teacher in thebody of Christ, one of the best,
best preacher teachers, womenteachers I've ever heard.
She said you want to know God'swill for your life?
And I was like, yes, yes, I'mready, I'm ready.
And she said just say yes toGod every time he asks you and
no to the devil every time heasks you, and you'll end up
(04:51):
doing all that God has calledyou to do.
I was like is that it and thatfreed me.
I was totally freed from thatpoint on.
Okay, I'm going to say yes toGod and no to the devil.
We're going to do this, andthat has been actually a very
good sort of arc to my life,just saying yes Every time he
(05:13):
said to do something, whetherit's to write a book or to tell
somebody or to stop a strangerand to tell them that God loves
him and give them sort of whatwe would call a word of
knowledge or a word of wisdomthat he's downloading to us, to
them, just just for them toprove to them that he sees them.
You know those kinds of things.
So I think that freed me.
Speaker 1 (05:35):
OK, I love the idea.
It does sound really simple.
I guess the challenge there isto discern the voices.
I know people who and this isnot people in the church per se,
at least not faithfully wherethey feel like you know this is
a good thing.
So God must want me to havethis because it's good.
I mean, look at it, look atthat car, it's beautiful.
God loves me, so he must wantme to have that right.
So we can twist that and playwith it if we really want to.
(05:58):
But you're not doing that,which is awesome.
But what would you say is itwould like to co-author a book
with your dad?
That's really a rarity.
I don't hear that very often.
What would you like toco-author the relationship book
with your dad?
How was it like?
What was it about?
Speaker 2 (06:14):
It was extremely natural because, if you can
imagine all of us sitting aroundthe table having dinner
discussions every night, we havethis overflow of conversation
and years and years ofconversation.
And what happened was my dadsaid he was listening to me talk
about how excited I was tostudy the Old Testament, which
(06:35):
never has happened before.
I'm a New Testament girl.
That Old Testament is boring,bloody, bloodthirsty, you know.
It's just like oh, do I have toread Deuteronomy again, you
know?
So I was starting out.
Speaker 1 (06:50):
Deuteronomy numbers are the one I'm like.
Numbers in chronic I'm like ifI had to hear another big gap.
I don't know what I'm going todo.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
Yeah, exactly, and I have all the certificates.
I've read through the BibleMany times.
I have the certificates toprove it, like the whole thing.
And I have all the certificates.
I've read through the Biblemany times.
I have the certificates toprove it, like the whole thing.
And I was starting over and Iwas not looking forward to it,
just to be honest with you.
And the Holy Spirit spoke to meand he said look for me, look
for Jesus, look for me revealingmyself.
So I started looking for him.
(07:19):
There's things like I'm the Godwho sees you, I'm the God who
calls you.
I'm the God who sees you.
I'm the God who calls you.
I'm the God who delivered youout of Egypt.
I'm the God who brought you tomyself.
There's all these revelationsof him.
And I was excited and I wastelling my dad about it.
He was like hold on, hold on.
I want you to share this withthe interns at church.
And so I did, and they loved ittoo.
They were like this is a wholenew way to study the Bible.
(07:53):
And I was like, exactly, it'svery exciting.
And so my dad said peoplearen't quite ready for this.
You need to be where God isrevealing himself in their own
story first, and so we startedto talk about that.
Where is God revealing himselfin our stories for the purpose
of relationship?
And he wrote that on the boardrevelation for the purpose of
relationship had the brain fartand accidentally stuck
revelation and relationshiptogether and we stood back and
(08:14):
said, aha, that's what we'retrying to say, that God is
pursuing us for relationship andhe's revealing himself so we
can have a relationship.
And that's why we wrote it.
Speaker 1 (08:26):
I love it.
Revelationship, so we knowwhere that comes from.
I like the idea of that.
You're also writing.
You're still writing a blog,graceful Musings right?
Yes, that's right.
Tell us what's the motivationfor that.
I know that it's providingwomen with some services.
Kind of speak to what GracefulMusic is all about, where it
comes from and why you're doingit.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
I started it when I quit my job, when I turned in my
two months notice as the COO ofa software company, I wrote
down a list, yeah, a list ofthings that I wanted to
accomplish, a bucket list, ifyou will.
And one of the things thathappened was, as I was going
through the two month notice,that I had given everybody else
(09:08):
quit mostly.
I mean, there was like threepeople left, yeah, so they
didn't want me to go, but Ineeded to go.
It was toxic at that point.
I've been there 14 years and itwas time to go and I had no
more rest.
You know, it was very.
Every time I thought of it, mystomach would turn.
You know it was very.
Every time I thought of it, mystomach would turn.
You know it was done, I wasdone, and so I turned in my
(09:29):
notice.
But I wanted to learn how tofinish.
Well, I wanted to finish thejob well, so I Googled it.
I was looking for articles onhow do you finish something well
, and there's nothing out there.
Everybody tells you to go,everybody tells you you
shouldn't stay, but nobody tellsyou how to leave well, and so's
nothing out there.
Everybody tells you to go,everybody tells you you
shouldn't stay, but nobody tellsyou how to leave.
Well, and so I was like, well,it is true, it is.
(09:50):
So I said let me write this asI go through it to kind of
document how am I going to leavethis job that I have served and
loved?
Well, and then, out of that,people were starting to ask
questions.
And then, out of that, peoplewere starting to ask questions
like you could tell that thebasis for my blog, even though
it was started out business, wastheological, like I want to do
(10:12):
this.
Well, because I want to bringglory to God, like that is the
purpose of what I'm doing.
And so people ask me questionslike, while you're in there, can
you answer me, why did Goddestroy Nineveh?
And I'm like, okay, let meanswer that question.
You know, started out, you know,out of my journey, turned into
(10:33):
answering questions, and itprovides really women five or so
minutes of deep theology thatthey can chew on and think on
all day long.
While they're changing diapers,taking care of kids, feeding
mouths, cutting apples, whateverit is we're doing, we can still
be thinking about these higherthings.
The Bible says to think aboutthese things all day long and
(10:56):
dwell on them and it's an honorto kind of puzzle out a matter
the Bible says.
So I'm providing five minutesof deep theology while they go
about their day.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
I love it.
I love the example you used.
It says that your blog provideswomen with a moment of rest and
challenge before those littlefingers appear under the
bathroom door.
I love the vision.
Speaker 2 (11:21):
That's the truth, though Every woman who's
listening knows that that's nottrue.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
Yeah, you can't go to the bathroom.
You can't go to the bathroomwhen people they show up trying
to get in there with you, I'mlike what I'm doing in here you
can't help me do this is mything.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
Lock the door for just five minutes.
Give me five minutes.
Speaker 1 (11:39):
I love it, I love it, I, I love it, I love it.
I want to get so much more intoyour thoughts on prayer and the
current view of the church, alot of things that you and I
shared, you know, pre-interviewchat about religion versus
relationship and a host of otherthings.
I hope we have time to get intoit.
I hope so.
But I want you to kind of jumpinto the first part of your
(12:00):
story.
You talk a lot aboutchallenging with divorce and
health and some things.
Can you get into that a littlebit?
I mean, I think that your storyis going to provide perspective
because people that go throughtrauma of any sort, it seems
like sometimes they live in itso long that it becomes home.
They never find their way outof it.
(12:22):
It's supposed to be a temporarysituation, that's what it
should be.
They become the permanentresidents.
So if you don't mind sharingone part of that before you
start, don't go intodeconstruction just yet.
Kind of get into the first partof what happened with your
family, with the divorce andyour child and everything.
Just kind of get into that andwe'll kind of pass it out and go
(12:43):
from there, go ahead.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
Sure, you're talking about a wilderness season.
You know, I think I was raisedto think that if you go through
something hard, it must be.
This wasn't something from myparents, I just want to be clear
.
But from the charismaticmovement as a whole, I imbibed
that if you were going throughsomething hard, that it must be
because you're out of the favorof God.
(13:04):
And that is just simply nottrue, because God's favor is not
going to make you comfortable,it's going to make your life
extraordinary.
The two are not, they're notconducive to each other.
Joseph's life was notcomfortable, it was
extraordinary.
No, so so this is um.
So going through wildernessdoesn't mean that God has
abandoned you.
(13:24):
So my natural inclination wouldbe to blame him or to have you
know, mean conversations withhim.
Why are you doing this to me?
Question him.
But supernaturally, the HolySpirit causes me to lean into
him as I go through things.
So you're right, I was raisedin the church, I did things
right.
I married a man who seemed likehe was compatible.
(13:46):
I was in the purity culture.
We didn't date, we didn't doanything, we held hands like
that was it.
And then we got married.
And then he was addicted topornography and he needed to go.
So he divorced me.
I'm sitting there, 20 something, got married very young,
something I've I've dotted allmy eyes, crossed, all my t's,
(14:09):
and I'm ended up childless,abandoned.
That is not supposed to happen.
Like a vending machine, god.
If I put in all the differentthings, I'm supposed to get out
a good life, less life, whateveryou want to call it, with the
chickens and the white picketfence and the kids.
And I did not.
Speaker 1 (14:28):
So I don't recall being added in.
All my friends have them.
They're great.
Speaker 2 (14:37):
So, but I think there's that picture that women
have of what we think we'regoing to get if we serve this
God.
And the fact is that may not bewhat you're going to get.
And one it was his choice toleave.
Paul says when they want toleave you, let them go.
And I had to let him go.
I didn't even go to the court.
I didn't do anything because Ididn't want a divorce.
(14:59):
He did so anyway.
The things that kind of come atyou in this season after season,
after seeing hard things, whatthey do is they build character,
and we don't like to hear that,but it's a fact.
So when my first husbanddivorced me, when I lost my
first child in miscarriage, whenthe man I love decided he who I
(15:22):
later married, he's my secondhusband broke up with me for the
third time and then dated somewoman he thought was the one
because she was perfect for him.
When I broke my neck in a caraccident, when I lost another
child, when I waited 10 yearsfor my first child, my son, for
(15:51):
my first child, my son, whatsustained me wasn't willpower or
perfect faith or tyingeverything up in a bow.
It was revelation.
It was knowing the God whoknows me, he sees me, he sees
the injustice done to me.
He is going to declare over mehis banner over me is love, not
desolate woman who's beenabandoned by her husband Right,
(16:11):
ok.
So knowing that sustained meand kept hope alive.
So if your listeners are in anykind of difficult circumstance,
they have to look to God.
What is it about God declaringabout your situation or about
you?
The truth of that and what he'sproviding, like the God who
(16:32):
sees me, means I am seen.
That's important.
Yes, so that's what kept me.
Speaker 1 (16:40):
I love it.
I love it.
Quick point I want to kind ofget into the faith crisis that
you had.
I want to get into that alittle bit.
But for those that arelistening, who may be wives who
are challenging theirrelationship with their husbands
, perhaps they are encounteringor have encountered something
(17:01):
like yours or something likethat seem to be brewing in their
households.
How do you encourage them, evenif they're not a believer like
yourself?
What would you say to them tokind of encourage them through
this period of crisis, orpre-crisis, if you will?
Speaker 2 (17:21):
You know that's a difficult conversation.
If they don't know God, theydon't have a source, so they
need to get that source.
So I'd have to point them tothe Bible, whether they're
believers or not, because thereis source in the Bible that you
know.
Even if they don't necessarilyknow Jesus Christ as their Lord
and Savior, they know he existedand his words were true, and
(17:42):
they ring true for anyone who'sactually listening to read
Jesus's words.
And I would also point them toexamining themselves.
What in this situation?
You can't do anything aboutthem.
You can't change them.
You can't force them.
You can't I tried.
You can't nag them.
You can't drag them tocounseling if they don't want to
(18:04):
go.
So you have to deal withyourself in the whole thing, and
so you have to take it as anopportunity to work on yourself
and do the hard stuff thatyou've been putting off, and I
have been putting things off.
So I had to deal with them.
I had to face them.
Truth, suffering brings outwhat's true, and some of what's
(18:25):
true about you isn't good.
So you're going to have to gothrough it, and I would
encourage people to surrenderthat to God.
All that you are, the good, thebad, the ugly, all that you're
not the good, the bad, the uglyand all that you ever hope to be
or ever have to hope to receive.
You surrender that to God.
(18:45):
He loves you.
That's just what he says.
I have loved you with aneverlasting love.
I love you more than anyoneelse.
So that love is trustworthy andhe's going to make sure that we
have what we need in order tothrive.
(19:08):
Thriving is what he's afterDwelling together.
Thriving Not what makes youhappy, not the cars and the
house and the dream.
Even it might be a good dream.
I had a good dream Kids, family, you know the whole thing is a
good dream, but what he wantsfor us is for us to thrive and
we can trust in that.
Speaker 1 (19:28):
I love that.
I love that.
One thing this idea of well,it's not an idea, but this
concept of trauma and how toovercome it.
It's challenging for a lot ofpeople.
I hear it a lot, whether it bein a coaching session or just in
a conversation, even in thecourse of interviews on this
show.
Tell me what your views are onrelationship and intimacy after
(19:52):
all that you've been through,because a lot of people have
gone through these challengesand they sometimes they don't
even take the time to stop andsit and settle in what they've
been dealing with, to recognizeyou know what this has been
affecting other stuff in my life.
What would you say would beyour view on relationships and
(20:14):
intimacy journey after allyou've been through?
Look, I'll be having somechallenges here.
We're losing you All.
Right, let's get you back inthe box here.
Okay, don't know what happenedthere, but did you hear my
question?
Speaker 2 (20:25):
I didn't hear your question.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
Okay, no worries, no worries.
I'll reiterate it.
After all you've been throughand the challenges of that, what
are your views on relationshipsas a whole and intimacy?
A lot of people kind of gothrough trauma, like I said
before, and they don't reallysit and soak in what's going on
so they can make some sounddecisions to kind of just move
through it.
But the intimacy journey andyour view on relationships you
(20:51):
know have been effective in someway by what you've gone through
, kind of share that and offerany advice you may have to our
listeners who may be dealingwith the same type of scenario.
Go ahead.
Speaker 2 (21:01):
So intimacy is based on trust and we have to know
that.
And you can't really trustsomeone you don't love and then
you don't know.
So the way that a relationshipdevelops is you know someone.
If you know someone and theyare, their character is good and
just dealing with like humans,and you know that they are
(21:27):
honest, integrity, they'remotivated, generally speaking,
by good things.
Obviously they're not going tobe perfect.
That is something that a lot ofwomen are looking for after
trauma.
Is perfection, not perfection,just godliness, like a general
arc and a pointing towardsgodliness.
(21:48):
If you know that, then you canlearn to love that, and then
loving and respecting soundalmost exactly the same in
action.
Now, they're not always, butthey sound the same.
So to know them is to love them, then you can trust them.
And it's really the same thingwith God.
When God says to us you cantaste and see that I'm good, you
(22:12):
can trust me.
First we have to know him, thenwe learn to love him.
The Bible says if you know me,you'll love me, and if you love
him, you'll begin to trust him,and then, if you trust him,
you'll obey him, which I thinkis one of those things that the
church gets wrong because theysay obey, obey, obey and the
person might not necessarilyknow love and trust him yet, and
(22:34):
you have to start with theknowing.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
That makes sense.
I love it.
I love what you're talkingabout here.
I have a question for you also,All listeners who are
interested in Kathy's bookwwwrevelationshipnet OK,
wwwrevelationshipnet, you canget her book there.
(22:58):
What would you say?
I want you to break down yourdeconstruction and
reconstruction story while wehave some time left.
But I want to ask you aquestion first.
Answer that as briefly as youcan.
It's a tough question, I get it.
Do your best to try to condenseas much as you can.
What would you say to theperson who has a question about
whether God speaks to humans ornot?
In this day and time, Does Godstill speak to humans?
(23:21):
What would be?
Speaker 2 (23:22):
the answer to that Okay, so short answer is the
same God who spoke back thenstill speaks.
He doesn't change.
So whatever he did, I reservethe right for God to do again.
And the reason for that isbecause he says I, the Lord, do
not change.
There is no shadow of change inme.
So if he spoke, he still speaks.
(23:44):
If he moves, he still moves.
If he rescues, he still rescues.
So I have no place for atheology like cessation, which
is sort of a fad and has been afad for the last couple hundred
years.
That was not part of the earlychurch history.
The early church fathers had noconcept that God would suddenly
stop speaking.
(24:05):
They would never have acceptedthat fad.
It's a fad.
So God still is the same as hewas yesterday, today and
forevermore.
So absolutely, he still speaksand still moves and still
reveals himself.
So that's the answer to that.
Speaker 1 (24:19):
Absolutely.
Are you able to briefly shareyour deconstruction slash
reconstruction story?
Can you do that?
Speaker 2 (24:28):
You might have listeners who kind of identify
with it a little bit.
I was young, I was 13 when Idid it.
So you know, growing up in thechurch maybe you just hit things
sooner Church abuse, maybe someauthoritative things that I
noticed that were wrong,hypocrisy, people saying one
thing doing another I saw it.
I was there for it, okay.
So I've been there since I wasborn, so I knew these people and
(24:51):
I knew what they were not andwere capable of, and so I told
my parents I don't think thisChristian thing is for me.
And instead of panicking andthis is going to happen to
pretty much everybody inChristianity at some point in
their life they'll have a crisisof faith and you can either A
ignore it, which is not the bestthing, or B?
(25:15):
face it head on, ask goodquestions.
So I told my parents that theydidn't panic.
They took me to the library.
They checked out a whole bunchof books on every religion,
including a bunch of littlereligions that most people don't
even know of.
Like all of them, and I studieda very a full year.
I was homeschooled so we couldput aside certain things and
(25:35):
really hone in on this.
And I studied, I went toconferences, I asked questions,
I read books and I deconstructeda lot of traditional
understanding or traditions madeof men is what I would call
them and got rid of all thoseand went down to the
(25:55):
foundational concepts that JesusChrist is real and wants a
relationship with me.
I started from there and fromthere I began to add on the
things that would promoterelationship.
So I don't read the Biblebecause some man told me so.
I read the Bible because inthose pages is life and him
(26:19):
revealed.
I don't dress modestly becausesome man told me I had to.
I dress somewhat modestly ornormal because I love God and
bring glory to him with my body.
That's just a highly practicalthing.
The men, that's a whole, notherseparation, separate issue.
(26:41):
You know they need to work ontheir eyes, whatever.
But I for me, for myself, amgoing to dress in a way that
honors God.
I don't care about anybody else.
So those are kind of thereconstructing processes.
You know what I believe aboutcommunion might not fit into a
niche that a certaindenomination would find
(27:03):
acceptable.
I think there's a little bitmore to communion, but less than
the Catholics I think there's.
When I come to the table ofcommunion I expect to experience
his presence.
So that's a part of thereconstruction journey examining
the doctrines and theology,understanding them as best as I
can.
So I'm a sort of a Bible nerd.
(27:26):
I wouldn't call myself aseminarian or something like
that.
I'm more of a Bible nerd,understanding as best as I can,
asking for the Holy Spirit, intruth and spirit, to interpret
something for me, to help meunderstand it, reading other
people, reading scholars, takingit in and then eventually
making a decision, but stilleven holding that decision with
(27:47):
some open hands, knowing that Icould be wrong, and I'm okay
with that.
Speaker 1 (27:52):
Absolutely no, I loved it.
I loved it.
Thank you for sharing that.
That's really good.
If anybody has questions aboutwhat we're discussing today, any
questions for Kathy hit us upon fan mail it's our link in our
show notes directly to me.
Send any questions and commentsyou have.
I'll answer those on theupcoming episode.
If you want to jump into thelive chat right now and ask
(28:14):
Kathy a question, the floor isopen.
The door is open.
Come right on in and we'llanswer those as they come
through.
I have two more questions foryou before we close the show out
today.
The first one is they're bothtough questions, but the first
one is a tough one, especiallyfor me because of what I'm
dealing with right now.
But what's your current view ofthe church?
(28:34):
I recently shared a video aboutwhat I believe the
responsibility is, and I don'tmean the physical building and
the people within it so much,but I mean just the overall
responsibility that we shouldhave individually and
collectively as representationsof Jesus Christ in the earth.
And I talk about this kind ofstuff a lot, but when I've asked
(28:57):
this question to believers, somuch stuff comes out because of
the frustrations and what we'refeeling and what we feel like we
should be and we're not.
What's your current view of thechurch, kathy?
You go ahead and share thatwith us.
Speaker 2 (29:11):
Well, I love the church, the body of Christ, so
I'll start there.
But I am frustrated as well.
There are a lot of tears, wheatmixed in with the wheat, and
for a long time I thought maybeit was my job to kind of help
the wheat exit the church.
And then, when that didn'thappen, I exited the church and
(29:35):
I wasn't going for a long timebecause it was just like a lot
of work.
It's a lot of work and it's alot of keeping your heart from
getting offended.
You know that's rule number oneyou can't get offended.
So, it's hard.
It's hard and I didn't fit in ahundred percent, because I'm
not going to just accepteverything hook, line and sinker
(29:56):
.
I'm going to ask questions, andthat makes people leaders
particularly uncomfortable, andI'm a woman who has something to
say and that makes a lot ofpeople uncomfortable.
Right, no question.
So you know it's a little bitfrustrating, but I'm also
hopeful.
There's revival breaking outall over this world, in the
(30:16):
church, outside of the churchand when I say that I mean in
four walls and outside of thechurch, and when I say that I
mean in four walls and outsideof four walls there's a lot of
people recognizing that there'sa third person in that Trinity,
the Holy Spirit, and that theyshould be having a relationship
with that Holy Spirit.
Which gives me hope, becauseevery revival is prefaced by
people suddenly discovering thatthere's a Holy Spirit and that
(30:39):
he should be allowed to make amess of things of their order a
little bit.
Yes, we need to have orderlyservices, but your order is very
different than God's order, sowe just need to get over that.
So I'm hopeful because revivalis breaking out and it's not
being suppressed Like it can'tbe suppressed at this point.
(31:02):
I think we've reached thattipping point.
I do think that the church inAmerica has become materialistic
and sort of consumeringeverything.
They even consume the Bible.
I read through the Bible in ayear.
I read through the Bible in ayear.
I'm like did you apply it?
Did you learn something?
You know it's.
It's okay to read the Biblethrough a year, but no, they're
(31:22):
not applying it.
Obviously so, because they'rejust drinking from a fire hose.
There's no discipleship.
That's a problem to me.
Hardly any discipleship.
Nobody even knows what thatmeans.
Every time I say the worddiscipleship, they point me to
their Bible study.
I'm like that is not the.
Bible.
So we got, we have someproblems and judgment is coming
(31:44):
to the house.
I'm watching it happen.
More and more leaders are lowbecause they have not exhibited
the humility of Christ.
If we have the humility ofChrist, all these things would
be just fixed in an instant, butwe don't have the humility of
Christ.
We don't start with humility.
We have this sort of worship ofmen and women who are at the
(32:07):
top sort of celebrity culture,weirdness and also we have this
escapist mentality that ekedinto the church around the
enlightenment period that we'resupposed to survive until Christ
comes back.
That is not what we're supposedto be doing.
Horrible theology.
Horrible theology.
Right, we got to go out intothe world and restore God's
(32:30):
kingdom here on this earth,meaning I bind up the broken
hearted, I cast demons out ifthey've allowed demons into
their life, I heal the sick orwhatever.
Those are the things we'resupposed to be doing and we
ain't.
So that's a problem.
So I would say those are mysort of main issues.
The other issue I just thoughtof this is the gospel.
(32:53):
I talk to so many Christians whothink that the gospel is their
testimony and I'm like no,that's your testimony, that's
your story.
It's lovely, it's wonderful andit shows God moving.
I want to hear your testimony,but it is not the gospel, the
good news of Jesus Christ, thathe came to this earth to seek
(33:13):
and save the lost, that he diedon the cross to free us from the
burden of our selfish desires.
He rose from the dead to freeus from the curse of death.
Then he ascended into heaven,where he's seated at the right
hand of the father, praying forus, who will follow the trail he
blazed as we are transformedinto that new creation by the
(33:34):
power of the Holy spirit whom hesent as a deposit on his
kingdom to come.
That's the gospel, and I don'tthink a lot of people know it.
Speaker 1 (33:41):
No, not at all.
Anybody want to check outKathy's book
wwwrevelationshipnet.
I'd love for people to come toyou and ask some more questions
about your deconstruction andyour reconstruction story and
what Revelation Ship is.
I hope that they come and chatwith you some more in our in the
(34:05):
comments section on our YouTubechannel under this episode.
I'd love for you to share yourlinks there, kathy, so people
can kind of get a hold of youand be able to reach out and
have these kinds ofconversations, maybe about
graceful musings or just aboutyour story overall or about your
book.
So I'm excited about doing that.
Hopefully help facilitate thatfor you.
I hope that happens for you.
(34:26):
Final question for you.
First off, it's been fun tohave you on.
I've been enjoying this so much.
Hate for it to come to an end.
But this is our final questionfor today and I think I kind of
prepped you for it.
If you're not authoring books,no blogs, no time at the
software company what's Kathydoing?
What's her vocation?
(34:47):
What's her mission in life?
What is she doing with her life?
Is she not doing any of thosethings?
Speaker 2 (34:52):
I wanted to be a professor.
I would be probably that wholeTweety professor writing on the
whiteboard thing.
I would have loved to have been.
What'd you say?
Speaker 1 (35:05):
What are you teaching ?
Speaker 2 (35:06):
I would probably teach Hebrew I love.
I'm sort of a Hebrew geek, soprobably Hebrew.
Speaker 1 (35:13):
You don't like the Old Testament, but you like
Hebrew.
Speaker 2 (35:16):
Well, I guess.
So You're right.
That is kind of inconsistent.
I do love the Hebrew language.
I'm not Jewish or anything likethat but I find it to be
fascinating and I would probablyteach Hebrew or ancient
languages.
I do love ancient languages andI like the history of language
and how it picked up.
(35:37):
This etymology came from thisroot and then together it made
this word.
I think there's a lot to it andI think under the surface of
ancient literature, particularlythe Bible, there's a whole
wealth or trove of informationthat people in the ancient world
would have understood.
That we don't because we speakEnglish, which is a very shallow
(35:58):
language.
English is very shallow,whereas Hebrew is
extraordinarily deep.
Just words like El Shaddai.
Just to geek out for a second,el Shaddai or El Shaddai is what
a lot of people say, but it'sEl Shaddai.
So El Shaddai means people sayit's translated Almighty God,
which isn't a terribletranslation if you're going to
(36:19):
be short, isn't a terribletranslation if you're going to
be short, but it really meansout of my mountain of abundance,
I am your sufficiency.
That's extremely deep you couldspend a whole sermon on that.
Speaker 1 (36:33):
Yeah, I like Hebrew and Greek too, but I don't know
if I want to learn how to speakit fluently.
I've been struggling withSpanish, so Hebrew.
But, kathy, thank you forjumping in here.
This has been a fantasticconversation.
I would hope it's not the last,but when new books come out and
new projects, I'd love for youto jump back on with us and kind
of share what's been going on.
(36:53):
But thanks again, give a shoutout to Mickey Ford For lending
you to us for a little while.
Definitely appreciate that.
And if you're listening, ofcourse Kathy has a book out
wwwrevelationshipnet.
You can get it there.
Of course you can shoot up herlinks in the comments section on
our YouTube channel.
We can reach out to her, askher questions, put some comments
(37:13):
out about the show.
We'd love to hear from you bothabout what you thought about
the show.
But once again, kathy, thanksfor coming in here.
But once again, kathy, thanksfor coming in here.
This has been really fun.
Thanks for your time on this.
Kathy and Mr Yu, we are out ofhere.
Have a great day.
Thanks again for watching andlistening.
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