July 1, 2025 • 23 mins
Mahmoud, a former Muslim groomed to become an Ayatollah in Iran, shares his journey from religious extremism to spiritual transformation after a near-death experience during the Iran-Iraq War.
• Born into a prestigious religious family with generations of Muslim leadership and multiple mosques bearing their name
• First introduced to Allah through fear when his uncle burned his hand to demonstrate the punishment of hell
• Memorized the entire Quran by age 10 and was strictly trained to follow in his grandfather's footsteps
• Taught from childhood to hate Christians and Jews, comparing Christians to red ants they would burn with petrol
• Embraced the Iranian Revolution believing it would bring "true Islam" and export it worldwide
• Served as a paratrooper, tank officer, and eventually religious leader in the Iranian Army during the Iran-Iraq War
• Pronounced dead on the battlefield before spending six months in a coma and becoming a "living martyr"
• Intensified religious practices after recovery, praying 20 times daily instead of the required five
• Decided to convert Christians to Islam and reluctantly read the Bible to find fault with it
• First read John 4, which sparked an internal conflict between his Islamic understanding of God and Jesus's teaching about God as Father
• Confronted a Christian man wearing a cross and planned to burn down his church
Listen in next week to hear what happens when Mahmoud, on his way to burn down a church, encounters something that changes everything.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Aravelle Boone (00:05):
We wanted to bring you a 180 from Season 2 as
a way to encourage you to prayfor Iran and see how God is
working in this country.
This is your host One-WayIntern Erev Elbon.
Mahmoud A. (00:18):
I asked Allah to forgive me for reading a Bible.
Then I picked up twohandkerchiefs because I didn't
want to touch a Bible and I justtook it off and, like touching
something dirty, use thehandkerchief to open the Bible.
And then I opened the page.
The first thing I read was John4.
Aravelle Boone (00:40):
In 1979, the most notorious theocracy of our
time was formed the IslamicRepublic of Iran.
At the same time, a youngMuslim man was being groomed to
become one of the nation's fourAyatollahs.
These plans would come to ascreeching halt.
God got hold of Mahmoud beforethis living martyr would rise to
(01:02):
power.
Welcome to Mahmoud before thisliving martyr would rise to
power.
Welcome to Mahmoud's 180.
Mahmoud A. (01:12):
I came from quite a big family.
I was the oldest son and firstson actually first born in my
family, a mother's side family.
They are a very religiousfamily, goes back to generation
and generation of Ayatollah andMuslim priest, mufti and Imam
very respectful.
In the city.
(01:32):
We have three mosques just inour city under our family's name
and other cities also.
They have a mosque Basicallyvery traditional family and very
religious family.
My father was a bit different.
My father was more towardsSufism, which again is a part of
the Islam, but more spiritualthan a side of the Islam.
(01:53):
I came from north of the Iran.
Aravelle Boone (01:56):
Next, we asked him what it was like growing up
with the Ayatollah.
Mahmoud A. (02:04):
So I was first born, I had a first son in the family
.
As soon as my born decision wasmade I'm going to follow my
grandfather's footsteps and oneday become an Ayatollah.
The first thing I rememberabout knowing about the God, the
conversation about God, waswhen all my family got together
the men of the family, my uncles, my grandfather, then the old,
(02:26):
then the big gathering and myoldest uncle, which again he was
like a priest, muslim priest,imam.
He called me in the middle andthen he's got to hold my hand
and he took a lighter and burnedmy hand and I pulled it out and
I started crying and he said tome hell is one million hotter
than this and it's one millionmore painful than this.
(02:49):
If you do anything to upsetAllah not just you, every one of
us will go to hell because ofyou.
My first experience about Godand religion.
Like a lot of Muslims, I try tokeep God away from me and my
family Somehow, to please Him,to make sure he doesn't harm us
or harm my family and that ismost of the thinking of the
(03:15):
Muslim, because we are so scaredof Him, we are so scared of the
hell, and it's not just for us.
Sometimes you don't mind to getpunishment for right thinking,
but when it comes to your familyto be punished, for you it is
much harder, and I was scared ofhim.
That's why I tried to pleasehim.
Aravelle Boone (03:35):
We asked Mahmoud what his view of Christianity
was growing up.
Mahmoud A. (03:39):
Well, in Islam, jesus is a very holy prophet,
one of the most importantprophets by Christianity.
I'll just give you an example.
When we were kids we had a lotof ant, red ant and black ant
and they told us you know thered ant, they are Christian.
We used to pour it in thepetrol and burn them down
(03:59):
because they were an enemy andthey go all to the hell because
they don't accept Muhammad as aprophet.
Because they were an enemy andthey go all to the hell because
they don't accept Muhammad as aprophet.
And from the kids we learnedsince very young age.
We learned to hate Christiansand hate especially Jews.
They were not people which welike and, thanks God, we are not
like them.
I was four years old when theyput me through the training
(04:23):
Before I go to the normal school.
Then I went to the Islamicschool by age of 10, I was what
they call Hafez al-Quran.
That's been the one whomemorized the Quran and recite
the Quran.
I was active in a mosque.
My grandfather in a mosque wasactive in a lot of gatherings,
you know when the families orspecial religious gatherings,
(04:44):
when they asked me to recite theQuran.
My family was proud of me.
They were hoping one day I'dbecome an ayatollah.
My grandfather tried to teachme all the different stories and
I went actually to Islamicschool for three years learning
all the religious aspects Notall of it, but as much as 10
years old can learn the way.
(05:06):
You got your grandfatherstanding on the top of your head
.
He said recite the Quran assoon as you make a mistake.
And he hit you with a stick.
You learn very quickly.
Aravelle Boone (05:24):
Next, Mahmoud explained the religious system
in Iran.
Mahmoud A. (05:29):
Christianity.
You have some sort of system inthe church there's a pastor,
then you have a bishop and allthe way out, bayatollah is the
one before the Pope, if you wantto call it that way, and each
country basically has got oneleader.
Whatever he says, they willlisten to him and the rest of
the people give him money andthen he's making a decision what
(05:50):
is halal, what is haram, whatGod likes, what the rule should
be.
It's a hierarchy, especially inShia.
It's a very high hierarchy.
In whole Iran we have like fourayatollah.
It's a very, very importantrule.
Usually the leader of the Iranis chosen of one of these
Ayatollahs and if you thinkabout it, it's got more power
(06:13):
than the government and outsidethe Iran you know how important
it is.
Aravelle Boone (06:18):
Next, Mahmoud describes some pivotal moments
in his life, including therevolution.
Mahmoud A. (06:23):
some pivotal moments in his life, including the
revolution.
Well, I think when therevolution started for us,
before the revolution, we had ademocratic government around the
Shah of Iran.
There was a lot of freedom forthe mosque, churches and other
religions to carry on.
But I was quite a young manwhen the revolution started and
(06:46):
we were so excited because we'regoing to bring a true Islam and
the power of the Islam, notjust in Iran.
As I told you, many said wewere going to export the Islam
to all over the world andbasically that was one of the
highlights in my teenage years.
But you talk about being a childand then at that time I didn't
(07:07):
have much childhood because Ihad to study all the time and it
wasn't like a normal childhood.
I studied and behaved as a holyman.
I remember when I was 10, 11,like any other child.
You dance to a playing game oranything.
Anytime I smiled or didn'tlaugh, I get a slap in my mouth.
(07:27):
Only man doesn't smile.
And so memories I carry on.
You know, when I came to Lordand the dad's first encounter
with Jesus, I run all the wayhome and knock the door.
My mother opened the door.
The first thing she said whatis wrong?
What do you mean?
What's wrong?
So you're smiling.
I didn't even know I'm smiling,I didn't even realize I'm
(07:51):
smiling and truly, from that day, you know I've been through a
lot of troubles, a lot of painand suffering, but from that day
I was a smile.
It gave me the joy which iscoming from within.
Aravelle Boone (08:05):
We asked Mahmoud to explain more about the
turmoil in Iran at the time.
Mahmoud A. (08:10):
You know, the war of Iran started very shortly after
the revolution because whenAyatollah came he proclaimed
Iran as an Islamic country andhe wanted to export Islam to
other countries, especiallyneighboring countries.
Wanted to export Islam to othercountries, especially
neighboring countries, and thewar started between Iran and
(08:31):
Iraq.
But very soon it turned into areligious war because the both
sides were claiming if you die,you'll be a martyr for Allah,
and especially the Iranian side.
For us it was a duty not toprotect the country we thought.
We are serving Allah and theother side, they are infidel,
even though they were Musliminfidels.
Then we kill any of them, thenwe go to heaven.
(08:51):
If we get killed, we go to theheaven, and so many young people
I mean so many kids that diedon a dead promise.
If you die straight away, yougo to the heaven.
And it was a horrible war withover a million people got dead,
killed in the war.
(09:14):
I joined the Army when I was ayoung man, before even the
Revolution.
I joined the Army and when thewar started it was around 18, 19
, and I become an officer in theArmy.
I was a parachuter, then Ibecome a tank officer and I was
very active from day one.
(09:34):
I spent a lot of time in theenemy line because I told if I
die I'm serving Allah, and I wasinjured a few times.
Then we just still got somebullets and sharpener and we
carried on.
For the long time I was aparachuter they drop us in the
enemy lines and then blowing astrategic area.
(09:55):
That was most of my time in theArmy.
Then, when I got injured and Icouldn't do the long run and
things, they put me as a tankofficer.
I was in charge with the wholeregiment of the tank and many
people under my command.
Then, when I got hit and nomore than I could be in active
(10:16):
duty, I become a leader ofreligious department of the big
part of the army.
Actually, my job was to teachsoldiers and officers about
ideology ideology about Koran,about teaching the Islam and
also then conduct all the prayermeetings, because we have a
different prayer meeting everydifferent days of the week.
There was a guy then in the topreciting it and people they
(10:39):
have to follow me just like abishop in a Catholic church.
That was my main job of leadingthe 2,000, 3,000 soldiers in a
prayer meeting Islamic prayermeeting.
The problem is in yourunderstanding as a praying as a
Christian is different withunderstanding as a Muslim.
As I said, everything we do isbecause we are afraid of God and
we worry where we go, andthat's different.
(11:02):
If we pray, then we pray not tosurvive.
We pray because we are scaredwe end up in hell or in heaven.
We don't have insurance and thelast attack we had on the Iraqi
army which this is the day weactually lost 180,000 soldiers I
was hit by the bullets and Ihit them in my stomach by the
sharp murder and basically theypronounced me dead on the field,
(11:25):
sent me to the field hospitaland they said, you know he's
dead.
And they threw me to the like acontainer you know the meat
container because it was a fieldhospital, you know, for the
dead.
And when they realized, youknow, a couple of hours later
and some movement in my fingersand they realized I'm alive,
(11:46):
they took me to the hospital butthey didn't have any hope to
survive and I was six months ina coma.
Basically, you know, in thefirst couple of months they
wouldn't even treat me becausethey told there's no point
because if they had othersoldiers and other people they
could use the resources whichthey know then is a possibility
to survive.
(12:06):
But six months in a coma allyear in the hospital I came out
and it took nearly two yearsbefore I recovered totally.
After that I couldn't be inactive duty anymore.
I've become what they call aliving martyr in Islam.
You're a martyr but you live it.
Then, all my life then I servedthe God, and up to the point to
(12:28):
ready to give my life and takeother people's life, because I
was scared of him.
I was scared what he's going todo if I make a mistake, what
he's going to do to me and whathe's going to mainly to my
family.
But after the hospital, then Isaw it and I got another life.
I got another opportunity and Ithought, well, god gave me
(12:51):
another chance and I want toplease Him.
It was no more question aboutbeing scared.
I wanted to please Him.
I wanted to make sure he'shappy with me If I die.
I want to know he's happy.
And you know it was morepersonal question to make Him
happy and make him pleased withme.
And it, oh, that was adifferent, and for that I've
(13:13):
become a very, very an activeMuslim.
If normal people prayed fivetimes a day.
I prayed in the 20 times a day.
I used to say wake in the nightand pray, and then the doing
all the religious thing we haveto do more than other people.
I wanted to please Him.
It wasn't about you know, justI had a good estate in the city.
(13:35):
Now I'm a living martyr.
They give me my own mask, theygive me an important job in the
army and all of those things.
But personally I wanted to makesure he's pleased with me and
that's why then I had a lot ofprayer meetings.
I was teaching a lot of youngpeople about Islam outside my
work, and then I used to pray alot.
(13:57):
I used to fast a lot.
I used to cry a lot, becausethe more I did I wasn't sure is
this enough?
Is he happy?
What will happen to me if I die?
Now?
You know it's not an easy placeto be.
Aravelle Boone (14:20):
Mahmoud talks about how he viewed Christians
at this point in his life.
Mahmoud A. (14:25):
I was working and teaching, teaching Muslim young
people about Christianity.
In that city we had a lot ofCatholic and Orthodox Christian
living and I was like Then oneday I was reading this Islamic
book.
And in this Islamic book itsays if you convert one of these
(14:45):
Christians to the Islam, or oneJew to Islam, one non-Muslim to
the Islam, it's like going toMecca seven times, which for us,
as a Muslim, going to the Meccabecause every time you go to
Mecca God will forgive some ofyour sin.
And I thought that's a greatopportunity to gain the favor of
God.
And I had to read, I had tounderstand more about the
(15:08):
Christianity.
That's why I studied theIslamic book against the
Christianity and my grandfatherwas helping me with that.
That was my first encounterwith the Christianity.
I went to my grandfatherbecause, you know, as I said, he
was proud of me, especially theuncle, and I said to him listen
, I read this book, an Islamicbook.
(15:28):
I want to convert thisChristian.
He said, yes, very good, verygood.
And he gave me a lot of Islamicbook and he said, okay, then we
can read this and find a faultwith the Bible, and find a fault
with the Christian and find afault with the Christian, which
I studied them.
But the thing was, these books,you know, it wasn't good enough
to go to some young Christianand say, come become a Muslim,
(15:51):
because they had all the thingsthey said.
It was so silly.
Then it wasn't logical, eventhough I didn't read the Bible.
But I told them it's not goodenough to convert these people.
And the first time I told themokay, I read some book.
I read some book BertrandRussell and other writers you
know the foreign writers againstChristianity.
I said again it's not goodbecause they were written in a
(16:13):
different way.
They're not spiritual books.
Bertrand Russell wrote why I'mnot a Christian.
But he was an atheist.
But I wanted to convert thesepeople to the Islam, not to take
them away from God, you know.
Then I decided to read theBible.
I thought maybe if I read theBible I'll find a fault with it,
then it's easier to convertthese people.
And I went to my grandfatherand I remember he was sitting in
(16:36):
a mosque in a high chair and Isaid you know, grant, what I'm
doing.
Doing I'm trying to convertthese people to Islam.
And he said very good, verygood.
I said that this book he gaveme is no help.
Then I read other book is nohelp.
I'm trying to read the Bibleand find a fault with it, and my
grandfather was big man.
Suddenly all the blood came tohis face and he starts shouting
(17:00):
at me don't touch that book.
It's a very dangerous book.
I believe that's the only trueword he said in all his life.
You know, the Bible is verydangerous.
I didn't listen to him.
I went and bought a Bible in ablack market.
I took it home.
I washed up in an Islamic way.
I asked Allah to forgive me forreading a Bible.
Explain for him why I want toread the Bible.
(17:22):
Then I pick up twohandkerchiefs because I didn't
want to touch a Bible and I justtook it off and, like touching
something dirty, used thehandkerchief to open the Bible.
And then I opened the page.
The first thing I read was John4, this conversation between
Samaria woman and Jesus.
It was so amazing.
(17:43):
Jesus said to her you know Ishould try to make excuses.
We worship here, there.
And Jesus said you know, itcomes a day.
The true worshiper worship aGod with the truth and the
Spirit.
And did worshiping a God withtruth and the Spirit?
Nah, we never had that.
We have ceremonies, we have aprocedure, we have a prayer
(18:07):
which we don't even understandit in different languages, we
have everything, but we've never, ever been able and we've been
permitted to worship a God intruth and the Spirit and the
Spirit, no way.
And I wanted that, and why itmade me so angry.
This word, it didn't say God,it said Father.
(18:28):
And this word Father, it mademe so angry.
I find the problem with theChristian Now they don't need to
read the Bible anymore.
They're calling the Holy God aFather.
They don't realize who they'retalking about.
You know, they're talking aboutthe creator of heaven and earth
, I mean Muhammad.
At that time he said, you know,he was so honored to be called
(18:52):
a slave of Allah, a slave of God, you know.
And then we killed ourselves.
I mean, I went to war, you know, to die to be a good slave of
Allah.
And these Christians, they,they call him a father and I
find that's a fault.
I threw the Bible away.
I said I'll never touch thatbook again.
I went and prayed and askedAllah forgiveness for reading
the book, went back to bed andtwo hours later I went and
(19:16):
picked up the Bible again.
I kind of worshiped him intruth and the spirit and that
was a start.
And that went on for months andmonths.
I was reading the Bible.
I was getting angry.
This Bible was so unreal.
God loved you when you were asinner.
I mean, come on, how can Godlove a sinner?
(19:36):
We don't have that aspect inIslam.
Then, even as a good man likeme from the kids that I've been
studying and as they're servingin Islam still then I would not
even imagine God can love me.
Then I don't have thatunderstanding.
And now he says God loves thesinner.
I was reading he's our son anddaughter of Holy God and you
don't have to do anything for it.
(19:57):
Can you imagine somebody?
Can you imagine somebody readyto give his life, ready to take
other people's life to be a goodslave and flee?
You can't be a son and daughterof holy God without doing
anything.
You just need to believe,confess and repent and the price
is already paid.
(20:18):
For me it was very, verystrange.
I couldn't even understand itand accept it.
It would be so easy If thattime they told me to have what
you guys have as a Christian.
Aravelle Boone (20:30):
Mahmoud is confounded here.
He said he expectedChristianity to require him to
do something.
Mahmoud A. (20:37):
I wouldn't become a Christian much sooner because I
was doing something.
It was too easy.
Become a Christian much soonerbecause I was doing something.
It was too easy.
And this war was in my heartInside.
I loved what it says thisFather God.
At the same time, I know thatno one is good enough to call
God a Father.
Nobody, no prophet, ever hadthe right to call God a Father.
(21:00):
All the kings and all theprophets we read about when they
talk about God, the knee wasshaking.
How can this Christian call Goda fault?
And then I had this struggle inmy heart and at the same time, I
tried to be because of thesedoubts, not about Islam, but God
himself, the character of God.
These doubts started in myheart Physically.
(21:21):
I tried to do more as a Muslim,as a Islam, to please God, you
know, to make sure he's notupset me.
That's why, then, I had moreclasses, praying more, you know,
and studying more in Islam.
One of the things I used to do,I used to go to the area
(21:41):
unprivileged area and teach aQuran to the teenager, and
usually I used to do.
I used to go to the areaunprivileged area and teach a
Quran to the teenager andusually I used to do it in the
evening because that was thebest time.
And I got some teenager then Iwas teaching him a Quran.
It was back after somebody'sshop and one of them said, oh,
come here, come here, man.
I said, yeah, what's happening?
He said, oh, this Christian isoutside in a shop.
(22:02):
Oh, that's good.
I went and I saw this Christian.
Now you have to imagine, I gotmy steward behind me and I saw
this guy.
He had a cross, a small cross,on his chest.
I said, well, it's a good time.
First, my siddur can see howmuch I know about Islam.
Then I wanted to insult this man.
I wanted to insult him becauseI told him if I do that, allah
(22:24):
forgive me for all of thesedoubts I had.
And I insulted this man of Godso bad.
And he just smiled at me.
He said you know we have achurch tomorrow.
Do you want to come?
It made me more angry.
It got me so angry.
I said yes, I'm coming, and hewent.
(22:44):
My student turned back to meand said you're going to church.
I said of course I'm going tochurch.
This is my country.
I give up blood for thiscountry.
This is an Islamic country thisis my city who give a right to
Christian to have a church in mycity.
I'm going to burn that churchdown.
Aravelle Boone (23:00):
Sorry, we left you on a cliffhanger.
Listen in next week to hearwhat happens next and how
Mahmoud went from a religiousman planning on burning down a
church to burning for Jesus.
We wanted to bring you a 180 from Season 2 as
a way to encourage you to prayfor Iran and see how God is
working in this country.
This is your host One-WayIntern Erev Elbon.
Mahmoud A. (00:18):
I asked Allah to forgive me for reading a Bible.
Then I picked up twohandkerchiefs because I didn't
want to touch a Bible and I justtook it off and, like touching
something dirty, use thehandkerchief to open the Bible.
And then I opened the page.
The first thing I read was John4.
Aravelle Boone (00:40):
In 1979, the most notorious theocracy of our
time was formed the IslamicRepublic of Iran.
At the same time, a youngMuslim man was being groomed to
become one of the nation's fourAyatollahs.
These plans would come to ascreeching halt.
God got hold of Mahmoud beforethis living martyr would rise to
(01:02):
power.
Welcome to Mahmoud before thisliving martyr would rise to
power.
Welcome to Mahmoud's 180.
Mahmoud A. (01:12):
I came from quite a big family.
I was the oldest son and firstson actually first born in my
family, a mother's side family.
They are a very religiousfamily, goes back to generation
and generation of Ayatollah andMuslim priest, mufti and Imam
very respectful.
In the city.
(01:32):
We have three mosques just inour city under our family's name
and other cities also.
They have a mosque Basicallyvery traditional family and very
religious family.
My father was a bit different.
My father was more towardsSufism, which again is a part of
the Islam, but more spiritualthan a side of the Islam.
(01:53):
I came from north of the Iran.
Aravelle Boone (01:56):
Next, we asked him what it was like growing up
with the Ayatollah.
Mahmoud A. (02:04):
So I was first born, I had a first son in the family
.
As soon as my born decision wasmade I'm going to follow my
grandfather's footsteps and oneday become an Ayatollah.
The first thing I rememberabout knowing about the God, the
conversation about God, waswhen all my family got together
the men of the family, my uncles, my grandfather, then the old,
(02:26):
then the big gathering and myoldest uncle, which again he was
like a priest, muslim priest,imam.
He called me in the middle andthen he's got to hold my hand
and he took a lighter and burnedmy hand and I pulled it out and
I started crying and he said tome hell is one million hotter
than this and it's one millionmore painful than this.
(02:49):
If you do anything to upsetAllah not just you, every one of
us will go to hell because ofyou.
My first experience about Godand religion.
Like a lot of Muslims, I try tokeep God away from me and my
family Somehow, to please Him,to make sure he doesn't harm us
or harm my family and that ismost of the thinking of the
(03:15):
Muslim, because we are so scaredof Him, we are so scared of the
hell, and it's not just for us.
Sometimes you don't mind to getpunishment for right thinking,
but when it comes to your familyto be punished, for you it is
much harder, and I was scared ofhim.
That's why I tried to pleasehim.
Aravelle Boone (03:35):
We asked Mahmoud what his view of Christianity
was growing up.
Mahmoud A. (03:39):
Well, in Islam, jesus is a very holy prophet,
one of the most importantprophets by Christianity.
I'll just give you an example.
When we were kids we had a lotof ant, red ant and black ant
and they told us you know thered ant, they are Christian.
We used to pour it in thepetrol and burn them down
(03:59):
because they were an enemy andthey go all to the hell because
they don't accept Muhammad as aprophet.
Because they were an enemy andthey go all to the hell because
they don't accept Muhammad as aprophet.
And from the kids we learnedsince very young age.
We learned to hate Christiansand hate especially Jews.
They were not people which welike and, thanks God, we are not
like them.
I was four years old when theyput me through the training
(04:23):
Before I go to the normal school.
Then I went to the Islamicschool by age of 10, I was what
they call Hafez al-Quran.
That's been the one whomemorized the Quran and recite
the Quran.
I was active in a mosque.
My grandfather in a mosque wasactive in a lot of gatherings,
you know when the families orspecial religious gatherings,
(04:44):
when they asked me to recite theQuran.
My family was proud of me.
They were hoping one day I'dbecome an ayatollah.
My grandfather tried to teachme all the different stories and
I went actually to Islamicschool for three years learning
all the religious aspects Notall of it, but as much as 10
years old can learn the way.
(05:06):
You got your grandfatherstanding on the top of your head
.
He said recite the Quran assoon as you make a mistake.
And he hit you with a stick.
You learn very quickly.
Aravelle Boone (05:24):
Next, Mahmoud explained the religious system
in Iran.
Mahmoud A. (05:29):
Christianity.
You have some sort of system inthe church there's a pastor,
then you have a bishop and allthe way out, bayatollah is the
one before the Pope, if you wantto call it that way, and each
country basically has got oneleader.
Whatever he says, they willlisten to him and the rest of
the people give him money andthen he's making a decision what
(05:50):
is halal, what is haram, whatGod likes, what the rule should
be.
It's a hierarchy, especially inShia.
It's a very high hierarchy.
In whole Iran we have like fourayatollah.
It's a very, very importantrule.
Usually the leader of the Iranis chosen of one of these
Ayatollahs and if you thinkabout it, it's got more power
(06:13):
than the government and outsidethe Iran you know how important
it is.
Aravelle Boone (06:18):
Next, Mahmoud describes some pivotal moments
in his life, including therevolution.
Mahmoud A. (06:23):
some pivotal moments in his life, including the
revolution.
Well, I think when therevolution started for us,
before the revolution, we had ademocratic government around the
Shah of Iran.
There was a lot of freedom forthe mosque, churches and other
religions to carry on.
But I was quite a young manwhen the revolution started and
(06:46):
we were so excited because we'regoing to bring a true Islam and
the power of the Islam, notjust in Iran.
As I told you, many said wewere going to export the Islam
to all over the world andbasically that was one of the
highlights in my teenage years.
But you talk about being a childand then at that time I didn't
(07:07):
have much childhood because Ihad to study all the time and it
wasn't like a normal childhood.
I studied and behaved as a holyman.
I remember when I was 10, 11,like any other child.
You dance to a playing game oranything.
Anytime I smiled or didn'tlaugh, I get a slap in my mouth.
(07:27):
Only man doesn't smile.
And so memories I carry on.
You know, when I came to Lordand the dad's first encounter
with Jesus, I run all the wayhome and knock the door.
My mother opened the door.
The first thing she said whatis wrong?
What do you mean?
What's wrong?
So you're smiling.
I didn't even know I'm smiling,I didn't even realize I'm
(07:51):
smiling and truly, from that day, you know I've been through a
lot of troubles, a lot of painand suffering, but from that day
I was a smile.
It gave me the joy which iscoming from within.
Aravelle Boone (08:05):
We asked Mahmoud to explain more about the
turmoil in Iran at the time.
Mahmoud A. (08:10):
You know, the war of Iran started very shortly after
the revolution because whenAyatollah came he proclaimed
Iran as an Islamic country andhe wanted to export Islam to
other countries, especiallyneighboring countries.
Wanted to export Islam to othercountries, especially
neighboring countries, and thewar started between Iran and
(08:31):
Iraq.
But very soon it turned into areligious war because the both
sides were claiming if you die,you'll be a martyr for Allah,
and especially the Iranian side.
For us it was a duty not toprotect the country we thought.
We are serving Allah and theother side, they are infidel,
even though they were Musliminfidels.
Then we kill any of them, thenwe go to heaven.
(08:51):
If we get killed, we go to theheaven, and so many young people
I mean so many kids that diedon a dead promise.
If you die straight away, yougo to the heaven.
And it was a horrible war withover a million people got dead,
killed in the war.
(09:14):
I joined the Army when I was ayoung man, before even the
Revolution.
I joined the Army and when thewar started it was around 18, 19
, and I become an officer in theArmy.
I was a parachuter, then Ibecome a tank officer and I was
very active from day one.
(09:34):
I spent a lot of time in theenemy line because I told if I
die I'm serving Allah, and I wasinjured a few times.
Then we just still got somebullets and sharpener and we
carried on.
For the long time I was aparachuter they drop us in the
enemy lines and then blowing astrategic area.
(09:55):
That was most of my time in theArmy.
Then, when I got injured and Icouldn't do the long run and
things, they put me as a tankofficer.
I was in charge with the wholeregiment of the tank and many
people under my command.
Then, when I got hit and nomore than I could be in active
(10:16):
duty, I become a leader ofreligious department of the big
part of the army.
Actually, my job was to teachsoldiers and officers about
ideology ideology about Koran,about teaching the Islam and
also then conduct all the prayermeetings, because we have a
different prayer meeting everydifferent days of the week.
There was a guy then in the topreciting it and people they
(10:39):
have to follow me just like abishop in a Catholic church.
That was my main job of leadingthe 2,000, 3,000 soldiers in a
prayer meeting Islamic prayermeeting.
The problem is in yourunderstanding as a praying as a
Christian is different withunderstanding as a Muslim.
As I said, everything we do isbecause we are afraid of God and
we worry where we go, andthat's different.
(11:02):
If we pray, then we pray not tosurvive.
We pray because we are scaredwe end up in hell or in heaven.
We don't have insurance and thelast attack we had on the Iraqi
army which this is the day weactually lost 180,000 soldiers I
was hit by the bullets and Ihit them in my stomach by the
sharp murder and basically theypronounced me dead on the field,
(11:25):
sent me to the field hospitaland they said, you know he's
dead.
And they threw me to the like acontainer you know the meat
container because it was a fieldhospital, you know, for the
dead.
And when they realized, youknow, a couple of hours later
and some movement in my fingersand they realized I'm alive,
(11:46):
they took me to the hospital butthey didn't have any hope to
survive and I was six months ina coma.
Basically, you know, in thefirst couple of months they
wouldn't even treat me becausethey told there's no point
because if they had othersoldiers and other people they
could use the resources whichthey know then is a possibility
to survive.
(12:06):
But six months in a coma allyear in the hospital I came out
and it took nearly two yearsbefore I recovered totally.
After that I couldn't be inactive duty anymore.
I've become what they call aliving martyr in Islam.
You're a martyr but you live it.
Then, all my life then I servedthe God, and up to the point to
(12:28):
ready to give my life and takeother people's life, because I
was scared of him.
I was scared what he's going todo if I make a mistake, what
he's going to do to me and whathe's going to mainly to my
family.
But after the hospital, then Isaw it and I got another life.
I got another opportunity and Ithought, well, god gave me
(12:51):
another chance and I want toplease Him.
It was no more question aboutbeing scared.
I wanted to please Him.
I wanted to make sure he'shappy with me If I die.
I want to know he's happy.
And you know it was morepersonal question to make Him
happy and make him pleased withme.
And it, oh, that was adifferent, and for that I've
(13:13):
become a very, very an activeMuslim.
If normal people prayed fivetimes a day.
I prayed in the 20 times a day.
I used to say wake in the nightand pray, and then the doing
all the religious thing we haveto do more than other people.
I wanted to please Him.
It wasn't about you know, justI had a good estate in the city.
(13:35):
Now I'm a living martyr.
They give me my own mask, theygive me an important job in the
army and all of those things.
But personally I wanted to makesure he's pleased with me and
that's why then I had a lot ofprayer meetings.
I was teaching a lot of youngpeople about Islam outside my
work, and then I used to pray alot.
(13:57):
I used to fast a lot.
I used to cry a lot, becausethe more I did I wasn't sure is
this enough?
Is he happy?
What will happen to me if I die?
Now?
You know it's not an easy placeto be.
Aravelle Boone (14:20):
Mahmoud talks about how he viewed Christians
at this point in his life.
Mahmoud A. (14:25):
I was working and teaching, teaching Muslim young
people about Christianity.
In that city we had a lot ofCatholic and Orthodox Christian
living and I was like Then oneday I was reading this Islamic
book.
And in this Islamic book itsays if you convert one of these
(14:45):
Christians to the Islam, or oneJew to Islam, one non-Muslim to
the Islam, it's like going toMecca seven times, which for us,
as a Muslim, going to the Meccabecause every time you go to
Mecca God will forgive some ofyour sin.
And I thought that's a greatopportunity to gain the favor of
God.
And I had to read, I had tounderstand more about the
(15:08):
Christianity.
That's why I studied theIslamic book against the
Christianity and my grandfatherwas helping me with that.
That was my first encounterwith the Christianity.
I went to my grandfatherbecause, you know, as I said, he
was proud of me, especially theuncle, and I said to him listen
, I read this book, an Islamicbook.
(15:28):
I want to convert thisChristian.
He said, yes, very good, verygood.
And he gave me a lot of Islamicbook and he said, okay, then we
can read this and find a faultwith the Bible, and find a fault
with the Christian and find afault with the Christian, which
I studied them.
But the thing was, these books,you know, it wasn't good enough
to go to some young Christianand say, come become a Muslim,
(15:51):
because they had all the thingsthey said.
It was so silly.
Then it wasn't logical, eventhough I didn't read the Bible.
But I told them it's not goodenough to convert these people.
And the first time I told themokay, I read some book.
I read some book BertrandRussell and other writers you
know the foreign writers againstChristianity.
I said again it's not goodbecause they were written in a
(16:13):
different way.
They're not spiritual books.
Bertrand Russell wrote why I'mnot a Christian.
But he was an atheist.
But I wanted to convert thesepeople to the Islam, not to take
them away from God, you know.
Then I decided to read theBible.
I thought maybe if I read theBible I'll find a fault with it,
then it's easier to convertthese people.
And I went to my grandfatherand I remember he was sitting in
(16:36):
a mosque in a high chair and Isaid you know, grant, what I'm
doing.
Doing I'm trying to convertthese people to Islam.
And he said very good, verygood.
I said that this book he gaveme is no help.
Then I read other book is nohelp.
I'm trying to read the Bibleand find a fault with it, and my
grandfather was big man.
Suddenly all the blood came tohis face and he starts shouting
(17:00):
at me don't touch that book.
It's a very dangerous book.
I believe that's the only trueword he said in all his life.
You know, the Bible is verydangerous.
I didn't listen to him.
I went and bought a Bible in ablack market.
I took it home.
I washed up in an Islamic way.
I asked Allah to forgive me forreading a Bible.
Explain for him why I want toread the Bible.
(17:22):
Then I pick up twohandkerchiefs because I didn't
want to touch a Bible and I justtook it off and, like touching
something dirty, used thehandkerchief to open the Bible.
And then I opened the page.
The first thing I read was John4, this conversation between
Samaria woman and Jesus.
It was so amazing.
(17:43):
Jesus said to her you know Ishould try to make excuses.
We worship here, there.
And Jesus said you know, itcomes a day.
The true worshiper worship aGod with the truth and the
Spirit.
And did worshiping a God withtruth and the Spirit?
Nah, we never had that.
We have ceremonies, we have aprocedure, we have a prayer
(18:07):
which we don't even understandit in different languages, we
have everything, but we've never, ever been able and we've been
permitted to worship a God intruth and the Spirit and the
Spirit, no way.
And I wanted that, and why itmade me so angry.
This word, it didn't say God,it said Father.
(18:28):
And this word Father, it mademe so angry.
I find the problem with theChristian Now they don't need to
read the Bible anymore.
They're calling the Holy God aFather.
They don't realize who they'retalking about.
You know, they're talking aboutthe creator of heaven and earth
, I mean Muhammad.
At that time he said, you know,he was so honored to be called
(18:52):
a slave of Allah, a slave of God, you know.
And then we killed ourselves.
I mean, I went to war, you know, to die to be a good slave of
Allah.
And these Christians, they,they call him a father and I
find that's a fault.
I threw the Bible away.
I said I'll never touch thatbook again.
I went and prayed and askedAllah forgiveness for reading
the book, went back to bed andtwo hours later I went and
(19:16):
picked up the Bible again.
I kind of worshiped him intruth and the spirit and that
was a start.
And that went on for months andmonths.
I was reading the Bible.
I was getting angry.
This Bible was so unreal.
God loved you when you were asinner.
I mean, come on, how can Godlove a sinner?
(19:36):
We don't have that aspect inIslam.
Then, even as a good man likeme from the kids that I've been
studying and as they're servingin Islam still then I would not
even imagine God can love me.
Then I don't have thatunderstanding.
And now he says God loves thesinner.
I was reading he's our son anddaughter of Holy God and you
don't have to do anything for it.
(19:57):
Can you imagine somebody?
Can you imagine somebody readyto give his life, ready to take
other people's life to be a goodslave and flee?
You can't be a son and daughterof holy God without doing
anything.
You just need to believe,confess and repent and the price
is already paid.
(20:18):
For me it was very, verystrange.
I couldn't even understand itand accept it.
It would be so easy If thattime they told me to have what
you guys have as a Christian.
Aravelle Boone (20:30):
Mahmoud is confounded here.
He said he expectedChristianity to require him to
do something.
Mahmoud A. (20:37):
I wouldn't become a Christian much sooner because I
was doing something.
It was too easy.
Become a Christian much soonerbecause I was doing something.
It was too easy.
And this war was in my heartInside.
I loved what it says thisFather God.
At the same time, I know thatno one is good enough to call
God a Father.
Nobody, no prophet, ever hadthe right to call God a Father.
(21:00):
All the kings and all theprophets we read about when they
talk about God, the knee wasshaking.
How can this Christian call Goda fault?
And then I had this struggle inmy heart and at the same time, I
tried to be because of thesedoubts, not about Islam, but God
himself, the character of God.
These doubts started in myheart Physically.
(21:21):
I tried to do more as a Muslim,as a Islam, to please God, you
know, to make sure he's notupset me.
That's why, then, I had moreclasses, praying more, you know,
and studying more in Islam.
One of the things I used to do,I used to go to the area
(21:41):
unprivileged area and teach aQuran to the teenager, and
usually I used to do.
I used to go to the areaunprivileged area and teach a
Quran to the teenager andusually I used to do it in the
evening because that was thebest time.
And I got some teenager then Iwas teaching him a Quran.
It was back after somebody'sshop and one of them said, oh,
come here, come here, man.
I said, yeah, what's happening?
He said, oh, this Christian isoutside in a shop.
(22:02):
Oh, that's good.
I went and I saw this Christian.
Now you have to imagine, I gotmy steward behind me and I saw
this guy.
He had a cross, a small cross,on his chest.
I said, well, it's a good time.
First, my siddur can see howmuch I know about Islam.
Then I wanted to insult this man.
I wanted to insult him becauseI told him if I do that, allah
(22:24):
forgive me for all of thesedoubts I had.
And I insulted this man of Godso bad.
And he just smiled at me.
He said you know we have achurch tomorrow.
Do you want to come?
It made me more angry.
It got me so angry.
I said yes, I'm coming, and hewent.
(22:44):
My student turned back to meand said you're going to church.
I said of course I'm going tochurch.
This is my country.
I give up blood for thiscountry.
This is an Islamic country thisis my city who give a right to
Christian to have a church in mycity.
I'm going to burn that churchdown.
Aravelle Boone (23:00):
Sorry, we left you on a cliffhanger.
Listen in next week to hearwhat happens next and how
Mahmoud went from a religiousman planning on burning down a
church to burning for Jesus.
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