When Education feels like Freedom with Dr. Gholdy Muhammad

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In this episode of I sit down with Dr. Gholdy Muhammad — scholar, educator, and author of Cultivating Genius and Unearthing Joy. From her roots teaching in Gary, Indiana, to shaping national education policy, Dr. Muhammad breaks down what it really means to teach to the soul — centering identity, intellect, criticality, and joy in every lesson.

We dive deep into how culturally and historically responsive teaching can transform classrooms, communities, and futures. Forget the buzzwords — this is about education that liberates.

Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_01 (00:22):
Welcome to the Only One My Podcast called your Rad
Rodder Solo, but I'm not alone.
I'm honored to welcome apowerhouse in education and
culture, Dr.
Goldie Mohammed.
She's a scholar, scholar, andauthor, and thought leader
redefining what it means toteach, learn, and lead with
purpose.
Doc, it's good to have you here.
How are you doing today?

SPEAKER_02 (00:44):
I'm so good to be here.
I'm doing well.
Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 (00:46):
That is good to hear.
So I'm gonna give you yourflowers, and I hope you're ready
to receive them.
Okay.
So the look on your face.
So you are the author of twogroundbreaking books:
Cultivating Genius, an equityframework for culturally and
historically responsive literacyand Unearthing Joy, a guide to

(01:10):
culturally and historicallyresponsive teaching and
learning.
Now, you challenge educators tomove beyond test scores and
teach to the soul to sparkbrilliance and identity and
liberation in every learner.
Now, I gotta say, you know, Iremember you speaking and you're
saying like one of your thingsis you like the right co

(01:31):
curriculum for like fun.
You know, like that's yourthing.
That's your thing.
And I love what you're doinghere because we actually need
that today, and especially inthe climate that we're in, of
how I'll just say it, ourhistory is slowly being erased.
And I always say as thegenerations go, the less and

(01:51):
less they'll know.
And it's up to us, you know,especially as the elders, not
calling you, elder, elder,elder, but as an elder, like to
know like this is the type ofstuff that we have to keep in
the forefront.
All right.
So I welcome you, I thank youfor being on, and I just want to
ask you, I'm gonna start offwith this question.
I want to take it back to Young,young Goldie.

(02:15):
Like, what inspired your journeyinto education?
And when did you realize thiswas like bigger than just
teaching curriculum?

SPEAKER_02 (02:23):
Yeah, um, you know, ever since I could remember, I
wanted to be a teacher.
I love to, I was born and raisedin Geary, Indiana, right outside
of Chicago.
And um I would watch teachers.
I could I could tell you thedifferent moves they would make.
I looked at how they dressed,how they spoke, how they um led

(02:47):
the classroom, how they, youknow, made children feel better,
how they taught.
I mean, and then I would go homeand like emulate it and practice
it.
So I remember doing that with mywith my teachers at Banneker
Elementary School in Gary,Indiana.
And I remember playing schoolwith my older brother.

(03:11):
He had to be my student.
I had a little green chalkboardand I was writing little lesson
plans to teach him.
I didn't know I was they werelesson plans or curriculum back
then, but you know, I loved likereading a book or learning
something new and then going andteaching it to someone else.
And I just remembered thefeeling in my body.

(03:33):
You know, like we rememberedfeelings in our bodies at
certain moments in our lives.
And to me, that's what made itspecial and significant.
And I knew this is what I'msupposed to be doing because I
love that joy that flowedthroughout my body, that, you
know, that just excitement,those butterflies.

(03:54):
And I started to feel it moreand more when I decided to, you
know, go into education, startmy student teaching, volunteer,
you know, at the local school orlibrary and just be around
children.
I just I love the way it made mefeel.
And I love the power it gave mewhen I would read something and

(04:17):
then then teach it to someoneelse and see the look on their
faces.
And that I like that just feltso empowering to me.
Um, and you know, I still feelit.
It's still the same feeling whenI when I do the work now.

SPEAKER_01 (04:32):
And it's good that you never lose it because that
passion, you know, I believethat God gave everybody a
talent.
And yeah, you know, when you sayyou feel it all through your
body, that's what I immediatelymy mind went to is that God gave
you that talent to be able torelay that messages to the kids
and all that.
Um let me just ask you, as as aas a young like teacher, you

(04:54):
know, what was like one of yourmost challenging moments in the
classroom?

SPEAKER_02 (05:00):
Well, you know, I think I started teaching when I
was 21 or 22.
I I may have been 21 still.
I don't know.
Maybe I I don't know what uhwith my birthday mail, but
either way, I looked like I wasin middle school.
And one challenging, liketeaching middle school and

(05:21):
looking younger, right?
Um it was fine when I taughtsixth grade, but when I moved to
eighth grade, you know, it wasit was interesting.
I made a lot of connections withchild with the children, but it
was challenging.
And I wore suits and I dressedup because I was trying to also
look older.

SPEAKER_01 (05:41):
Yeah, you got to differentiate yourself.
So, you know.

SPEAKER_02 (05:45):
Yeah, differentiated outfits.
Yeah, yeah.
You might be onto somethingthere.
You know, that that was achallenge.
Um, sometimes other there therewere people in the building.
I had I work with a lot ofamazing teachers and educators,
but there were a lot of peoplein the building that did not
love children the way I did.

(06:06):
And that was a challenge.
Right, you know, and especiallywhen they think that they could
just tell you what to do becauseyou're a new teacher.
You know, I had teachers tellme, don't smile for your first
few months.
And I'm like, but I love tosmile.
I wake up smiling, like I lovesmiling, and I want them to see

(06:28):
my joy while I'm teaching.
You know, so I would, I would,it wasn't a challenge because I
never something told me like,don't take that in.
You know who you are, you staytrue to who you are.
But you know, I think we don'ttalk about this enough, and I
don't know how much new teachersexperience it now, but it is a

(06:49):
form of bullying, you know, newteachers, and you're always
you're trying to already figureout who you are and have
confidence in what you do.
You know, we don't need thatextra.
But you know, I didn't have awhole lot of challenges starting
out.
I had supporting and black womenadministrators.
I would come to my principal'soffice with a proposal.

(07:12):
Every time we met, I had put itin writing because she knew I
was proposing something, uhovernight program for girls, uh,
you know, girls' circle, thisgroup I would start um after
school, um, career day.
I mean, she I had all theseideas, new websites for your
classrooms.
And you know, that was big backthen to have a classroom
website.

SPEAKER_01 (07:32):
Classroom website, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (07:35):
And she just said, Okay, you got it.
I wanted to propose to have fiveminutes of each faculty meeting
to have an each one teach one.
And she said, Okay, you sure youwant to do this?
This is your first year, youknow.
Um, so I just had a spark insideof me.
And once I had an idea and Ilove the way it made me feel, I

(07:56):
would just run with it,regardless if people were with
me or not.
Um, so I had my my first yearsteaching, I always say were my
best years teaching.
And part of it is because I waslearning with the children too.
You know, I was teaching ancientcivilizations, and I'm like, oh,
I don't know if I'm ready toteach this.
I don't know much.

SPEAKER_01 (08:17):
Ancient civilizations.

SPEAKER_02 (08:20):
Because they gave me a social studies block as well,
and I thought I would only haveELA, which is what I was
preparing for.
And when I taught socialstudies, and they said it was
ancient civilizations, and Isaid, I I can't teach this, I
cried.
And I cried to myself, not infront of everybody.

SPEAKER_01 (08:36):
Not in front of everybody.
Yeah, you did it in the car,like everybody else did.

SPEAKER_02 (08:39):
And what made me a great teacher is that I was
learning with them.
You know, like sometimes whenyou don't know much about
something, but you put in theenergy, the time, and the work,
yeah, and it your teaching comesalive even more.

SPEAKER_01 (08:55):
And when you're able to unlock something that you
didn't know when you can shareit, yeah, with that enthusiasm,
you know, exactly pick up onthat.
So I'm looking at like back thenwhen we look at the different
generations of children, and ofcourse, like now we're dealing
with, you know, they say theCOVID babies, COVID babies, and

(09:17):
of course, we know attentionspans, things are not the way
that they um were probably whenwe were growing up, and even in
terms of the way classrooms arerun.
Like, what is one of the biggestdifferences that you've seen
from your experience startingoff teaching and growing into
that role into now this rolewhere you pretty much teach the

(09:40):
teachers?
Like you I'm pretty sure you'vegone in classrooms as of late.
Do you see like a very starkdifference between then and now?

SPEAKER_02 (09:50):
Well, I mean I wish curriculum was different.
I don't see much of a differencewith curriculum, sadly.
You know, when I was coming upto be a teacher, like, you know,
I guess 2002, 2003, um, theywould tell me, you know, well,

(10:14):
kids are not sitting down inchurch like they used to back in
the day.
So their attention span may notbe the same.
That was the attention spanissue.

SPEAKER_00 (10:22):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (10:23):
If they go to church like you know, generations did
before them, because that's thattaught many of us um to sit
still and to listen.

SPEAKER_01 (10:37):
Well, you know why I'm laughing, because you had to
do that.
You didn't have a choice.
It was you know, you know why.
So, like you didn't have achoice if you didn't do it.
You're gonna have a rough Sundayafternoon, but go ahead.

SPEAKER_02 (10:53):
Right.
And that well, and I'm Muslim, Igrew up Muslim, but I was in my
grandma's church.

SPEAKER_00 (10:58):
Right, right.

SPEAKER_02 (11:02):
And so they would say that.
Um, they would say those kind ofnarratives, and then you know,
as technology, I mean, thebiggest difference is
technology, right?
Yeah, um, books and seekingknowledge and isn't the same,
and getting that, you know, thethe biggest difference, right,
is what children and what we hadto do in order to write and to

(11:25):
read and to seek knowledge.
It didn't come so quickly,right?
You know, it was a car catalog.
And then you read the book, itwasn't like AI or these search
engines.
So, you know, we're in adifferent era now, and where you
have phones and people are stilldebating, this has been going on

(11:47):
for so long.
You know, do they do studentsbring the the technology in the
classroom?
Does it help?
Does it hinder?
Does it interrupt theinstruction, right?
So, you know, these things arestill going and things that we
really didn't have to deal with,those of us who started
teaching, you know, back then.

SPEAKER_01 (12:09):
Well, let me ask you, your opinion.
Because I mean we all we allhave our opinions on this.
Do you think it the technologydoes it hurt, hinder, help, you
know, move forward?
Um, what what do you what isyour opinion on that?

SPEAKER_02 (12:24):
Depends on how's it how it's used.
It it doesn't matter whattechnology you're referring to.
If it stifles intellectualismand critical thought and
creativity and independence,it's going to hurt.
You know, many of us use like aGPS.
I use a GPS everywhere.

(12:45):
I go down a block and I put itin.

SPEAKER_01 (12:48):
Even when you know where you're going, I just got
to check traffic or something.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (12:51):
And then at some point, I had to ask myself like,
is this sort of in like creatinga barrier of me figuring it out
and critically thinking andremembering and and looking.
You know, I had to really askmyself that.
And it I think it was, you know,like AI can be used as a useful

(13:12):
tool for many people forwriting, for thinking, for
researching.
But if you use it to replacethoughts, and that's the key
everything, it should enhancesomething you already have and
know to do.
You should be able to writefirst before you use these
tools.
You should have some sense ofdirection before you use GPS.
So, you know, if it is elevatingsomething, it can be a tool like

(13:37):
anything else.
And if it's going to be used inany way, whether it's
intentional or not, to replacecritical thought, intellect, I
think it's a problem.

unknown (13:47):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (13:47):
And I'm I like to, you know, and maybe I like a
good primary source document.
Like, you know, I I haven't, Iprobably need to move a little
faster in technology andlearning it than I than I am.
But I do like moments where wecan remove tech, pick up a book,

(14:09):
smell it, feel the pages.
Yes, look at it, you know, behave an experience, a
transaction with it, anexperience with it, you know.
So I like to return to thosethings and not to ever lose
them.
And I want children to haverelationships with books.

(14:29):
I want children to read and pickup books in their hands too.
And, you know, I know a lot of Ihad a friend of mine, she did
some research and she said, youknow, in middle class
households, she found like thiswas like 10, 15 years ago, I
think.
She says there were moretechnology kind of electronic
games than there were books inmiddle class and upper class

(14:54):
homes.
And I thought that wasinteresting because, you know,
our books sort of being a thingof the past, and you know, I
hope not.

SPEAKER_01 (15:07):
I hope not either.
I tell everybody because Inotice your library, I have my
library.
Um you better get these things,and especially when it comes to
black history, world history, UShistory, um, you gotta have
these things on deck.
And we often have, you know,these conversations in our
circle with the uh Kindles andthe um you know, uh different

(15:30):
type of e-books and all.
You know, I'm just gonna put myten foil hat on for a minute.
I always believe that that'sgood in a pinch, like if I'm out
and about, I may not want towalk with a book bag full of
books like I used to orsomething.
But I always believe thattechnology can also be
manipulated.

(15:51):
And so if you're trying to getthis particular book or things,
who's to say that these thingscan't be manipulated with an
update, you know, and erasecertain things out that you
didn't know.

SPEAKER_02 (16:03):
Exactly.
That's what they're doing.

SPEAKER_01 (16:05):
That's what they're doing.

SPEAKER_02 (16:05):
And that's why they're trying to ban books from
libraries, burn books.
I mean, this is not anything newwhat we're seeing.
No, if they can remove these thebooks from museums, from
libraries, they can pretend asif this history never happened.
And and this has been ongoingsince the inception.

(16:27):
And you know, people gottaunderstand this is not anything
new.
They've tried and people pushback, and then what they do is
they'll threaten and you know,scare tactics for publishing
companies, so then they won'tchoose to publish certain
content or they try to erasecertain content.

(16:50):
I've experienced that in my lifewhere I've had folks come to me
and editors come to me and say,just in my own writing, and say,
Well, can we change this?
And and I'm thinking in my mind,if you change this, this erase
all of the history blackhistory, this little one.

SPEAKER_01 (17:11):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (17:12):
But see, who's telling you?
Is that already in you?
Is somebody telling you?
Is your boss telling you this?
Is the uh who I don't know, butit's happening.
It's been happening, it's beenongoing, and I think people are
getting more comfortable with itright now due to the social
climate, the political climatethat's happening right now.

(17:33):
They're doing it even more.

SPEAKER_01 (17:34):
Right.
And that's the thing is yougotta keep, especially with the
youth aware, you know.
Um, I interviewed someone uhsome time ago and they were
talking about how we should keepgenerational stories going.
And so it's like even yourparticular family history, you
know, as those generations dieout, somebody should be there to
kind of document you know, yourown family's journey.

(17:57):
Um and the same goes withhistory.
Um I know you said like you hadtaught ancient texts in in
classrooms and things.
And it's like sometimes thattext don't affect us.
Like they don't they you canknow about you know you know the
Aztecs, which is good, it's butthen you don't know basically,
you know, history that AfricanAmericans and you know Latin

(18:20):
Americans have contributed tothis country and so on and so
forth.
So those are things that I lookout, you know, and say, Man, you
know, get these libraries inyour book, in your house, you
know, get these books in here.
Yeah.
Because we're gonna come to apoint where they're gonna
probably shut down libraries,they're gonna probably tell you
everything's online.
You know, you don't need to havea physical book.
Do you know how many kids can'teven turn a page in a book?

(18:42):
It it's it's it's staggering.
Like they don't know how toactually flip the pages and find
what they need to find, and it'sit's crazy within itself.

SPEAKER_02 (18:50):
Yeah, yeah.
So um You know, I remember doinglike a study abroad.
Oh, let me just add to that.
And they were writing lettershome, and they didn't know,
these were 19-year-olds, uh,undergraduate students.
Uh, we did a study abroad inFrance, and some of the students
didn't know how to write theaddress on the envelope, like
where does it go?
Wow, you know, you know, sothese early literacies and

(19:13):
things, it's important to keep,it's important to retain, in
addition to, of course, ourliberatory histories, our joyful
histories.
And and you know, another pointto that folks are so like
they're trying to erase whatreally happened because they

(19:35):
don't want to tell the truthabout white Americans during
that time.
It would make so much more senseif you spend a little bit more
time adding to the curriculuminto books about white
abolitionists.
Yes, a lot of people don't knowthat stuff saying won't you
spend some energy focused onwhite abolitionists who fought

(19:58):
with black folks and indigenousfolks.
Yeah, but the fact that they'renot doing that, it shows you who
they really are.

SPEAKER_01 (20:06):
Because you never hear nobody talk about John
Brown at all.

SPEAKER_02 (20:10):
Right, he was like, We're burning down everything.

SPEAKER_01 (20:16):
He trained them to do this stuff.

SPEAKER_02 (20:18):
Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 (20:19):
So nobody talks about that.
And um this is actually a goodsegue into my next question
because in in your book, youalso talk about the influence of
the 19th century black literarysocieties.
Um so can you break that downfor our audience?
Um, what would those societieswere and why were they central
to the work that you're doing?

SPEAKER_02 (20:41):
Yeah, and and so like in urban cities in the
north um east part of ourcountry and cities like you
know, Philadelphia and New Yorkand DC, Rochester, Boston, where
black folks had around, youknow, 1820s, had uh uh some more

(21:05):
liberties than brothers andsisters in the South.
They organized around education,around literacy and literature.
And we would call them todaylike a book club, but they
called them literary societiesor lyceums or reading rooms and

(21:26):
literacy clubs and things likethat.
And they had membership dues,they started in about around
1828 with young black men, youknow, adolescent age, young
teenage uh teenage, young men,20s, older that age.
Some literary societies had 10members, some had a hundred

(21:48):
members, and they had membershipdues.
When you became a member of thissociety, you had to pay a
membership due.
And the membership dues, youknow, it went to the bills of
the organization, but most ofthe money went to to establish a
library and it went to books.
And then when members wouldcheck out books, they were

(22:12):
expected to kind of give like adeliver like a few-minute
lecture, summative speech, sortof on the book, because you as a
member might want to check itout after me and learn, but it
was like that each one teach oneuh mentality where learning and
literacy was like a flame.

(22:32):
And they said to keep it toyourself was like a selfish act.
So it was like this collectivismaround education and literacy.
And I found that they they notthey weren't just reading to
develop their skills, they werereading to develop, like most of
us today, when we read books andchoose books, they read to

(22:56):
develop their identity, theirindividual identities, their
collective black identity.
They read to engage theirintellect and their minds.
They they read for criticality,which was, you know, to
understand equity and justiceand and use literacy as like a
tool against oppression.

(23:16):
And then they they read and theylearned for joy, you know.
Like I saw one literary society,a group of black men reading and
women reading about Chinesefashion and you know, and style,
you know, that to me that wasjoy in a world in a society that

(23:36):
was full of so much turmoil andpain.
And you would find around thestart of literary societies,
you'll find the rise of blackpress, starting with the
Freedom's Journal in 1827.
And so the same members ofliterary societies were often
these editors of these um blacknewspapers because the white

(23:58):
newspapers were not reportingthe truth, they were not
reporting their genius, theirjoy, their justice.
They made it, you know, kind ofhow news is today.

SPEAKER_01 (24:09):
News is today, yeah, pretty much.

SPEAKER_02 (24:12):
Tell a lie.

SPEAKER_01 (24:13):
Yep.

SPEAKER_02 (24:13):
And they said, you know what, we're gonna speak for
who we are, we're gonna tell ourtruths, we gon' we gonna
celebrate ourselves, uh, and andthey have poetry sections, they
have family sections, schoolsections for parents.
They they so these newspapersalmost became like a circulated

(24:33):
moving library within itself,because you can pick up the
black news press and get yourliterature, get your nonfiction,
get your news, get your poetry,get so much.
And these literary societies wasjust a special part of history,
and when they dissolved, uh manyof them sort of repurposed into

(24:56):
like historically blacksororities and fraternities
because they kept that samemission around service and
education.

SPEAKER_01 (25:04):
So, do you think that's like the model that you
see a lot of times now with theuh free press and all is like
almost like community news andinformation, and that that what
you're describing sounds exactlylike just community news and
information.
Yeah, and and good news, becauseI was changed you were stealing

(25:24):
my thoughts because I was justgonna say don't no, don't don't
be so we good, don't be you'renot stealing wisdom.
So what happens is that you knowto speak to your point about the
the the negativity of what'sbeing reported about us, you
know.
Um that's a big thing becauseyou see more about crime and

(25:47):
even in just general socialmedia, everything that you see
is just almost like a negativestrike against you know African
Americans, especially inparticular our young people,
where it's often portrayed asfights and foolishness and
things like that.
And there's so much more to it.
And I guess that that's thegeneral fight of what you see

(26:08):
now, even in preserving history,is that we were so much more
than slavery.
So much more than oppression,you know, with so much more to
it.
And that that's the one thingthat I I love that you were
saying about these wholeliterary societies, is that they
gave that information out andlet people know, let people know
who who you know they are.

SPEAKER_02 (26:29):
And and they started the story off right.
See where you start the story,you don't start the story with
the teenage mom or the fight.
But you might have to start thestory off with rape, abuse,
neglect, pain, suffering thathappened to that child before it
happened.
And that's what to me, BlackNews did.

(26:51):
We started the story where itreally starts.
It don't start with what youjust happen to see as a result
of something.

SPEAKER_01 (27:00):
Yeah.
Yeah, so much news is that way.
So, and and cultivating genius,that's just not a framework,
right?
So it's like more like a call toaction and what educators do and
communities often get wrongabout equity in education,
right?
So, um, you want to speak moretowards that?
Like, what is it, what is itthat educators and communities
are getting wrong in in terms ofteaching the teaching the

(27:25):
children?

SPEAKER_02 (27:26):
Yeah, well, first we have to start the story in
education offright.
Yeah we have to teach, I think,when we prepare the next
generations of like teachers andleaders and educate those that
are doing the work today, wehave to really teach them about
education in the United Statesand where it came from.

(27:48):
How did we get to where we aretoday?
That's not really given across alot of programs, or it might be
like one class, but I think weneed to really historicize
curriculum, policy, standards,assessment, evaluation.
We got to really understandwhere it came from and we got to

(28:09):
go through timelines of history.
You know, a lot of people thinkthe first desegregation case or
the major one was Brown versusBoard of Education.
It is a major one, but they maynot know about Lemongrove School
District in 1931 and how theywere, you know, segregating
Mexican-American children.

(28:31):
So we have is so much tounderstand.
That's the first thing we're notgetting wrong.
I mean, we're getting wrong.
We're we're not given that richdepth of history and
understanding of what educationreally is in this country and
how it was formed.
And the other major thing thatyou know we're getting wrong are

(28:53):
these larger problems insociety.
Like I always say that all ofthe social ills and problems
that you see in society will bethe same problems you see in
schools.
If you see divisiveness andconfusion and you know,
ignorance in society wherepeople aren't questioning, they
just take anything as truth.

unknown (29:15):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (29:16):
Guess what?
We see that same thing inschools.
So we have to, this is why weneed leaders and community folks
and organizers to get the policyand get communities right across
society so we see betterschools.
When we look at the schoollevel, what we're not getting

(29:37):
right is the goals we set andwhat we deem as important for
success and achievement.
If you look at the first schoolin the United States from the
schools we see today, we'realmost setting the same
standards and goals.
We are in a skills only world.

(29:58):
We might teach moremulticultural.
Cultural text, we may haveadvanced in our technology, but
at the end of the day, we arestill teaching, practicing,
measuring, and assessing skillswritten in the form of state
standards.
Standards that no one teachercan tell me who wrote it.

(30:19):
I do so many talks, I get to bein front of so many educators,
and I ask one simple questioncan somebody raise their hand
and tell me who wrote the commoncore standards or the state
standards that your districtuses.

SPEAKER_01 (30:36):
That's a good question.

SPEAKER_02 (30:37):
And it's crickets.
You know how powerful thesestandards are.
These publishing companies willthen write the curriculum based
on these standards, right?
And I I study the standards.
I know all the standards andknow science standards, so
studies, because I write, Iwrite curriculum every week.
So I'm always studyingstandards, and I gotta I ask

(30:59):
myself, huh, I wonder, like evenfor science.
Um, I I did a unit on a lessonplan on like what is a
mathematician?
Who is a scientist?
And there was no K2 standardthat addressed that.
And I said, Well, who whywouldn't they start off the
standards with students who willlearn the meaning of science and

(31:21):
math?
Wouldn't that be like and I saidto myself, who wrote these
standards?
Nobody knows.
So we are honoring thesestandards, we we build our
assessments, we build ourevaluations.
Some leaders are even theirsalaries are based, their jobs
are based to these standards.
People are going to jail, youknow, for cheating on Tes

(31:44):
because of the pressure ofthese.
I cannot tell you how powerfulthey are, powerful they are.
And I don't know why in 2025,2026, we don't have goals,
objectives around identitydevelopment for children, around
intellect, you know, the thingsof my model around criticality
and joy.
Why are we still in askills-only world?

(32:06):
All we have to do is turn on thenews, even looking at the school
shootings.
Most of those shooters werechildren in that district just a
year or two before.
Skills are not enough tonavigate and be successful in
this world.
But see, skills are enough ifyour world is maintained, if you

(32:28):
honor capitalism, but if youhonor humanity, skills are not
enough.
And they've never been enoughfor black people.

SPEAKER_01 (32:35):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (32:36):
You can tell.

SPEAKER_01 (32:37):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (32:38):
What we experience and what we see on a daily
basis, it doesn't matter if yougot your PhD, you got a good
job, you're still experiencingwords of harm and hurt and
violence.
So the main thing, we're gettingwrong, all those things.
But speaking from likecurriculum and you know, the

(32:58):
ways in which we know what worksand what we're seeing and what
we're assessing and teaching, itdoes not match.

SPEAKER_01 (33:07):
So we yeah.
I can see the passion.
Yeah, about that.
But now that we know what'swrong, what would be the
solution?
Like if we had to put the ballin your court and say, you know,
Doc, give us a solution.
How do we fix this?
Do we get rid of the the youknow common core standards and

(33:29):
kind of reboot this thing basedupon you know equity?

SPEAKER_02 (33:33):
Um education is large.
If you're talking about K-5 orK-12 education, pre-K-12, there
are things you can do.
There are things that highereducation needs to do
differently, in my opinion, aswell.
You know, I don't know whyeducation costs so much, you
know, and and why property taxesare associated with schools

(33:53):
instead of dividing it out tomake sure children across the
United States, our nation'sbabies, have all quality
education.
Like there's so much, but it canbe understood where the right
leader can address it.
So, you know, in terms of whatare the solutions in K-12

(34:16):
education or pre-K-12, I'll say,um, one of the very first things
we can do is start to havebetter policies.
See, when we just have likeprofessional development and
workshops and book clubs aroundculturally responsive pedagogy
and humanizing pedagogy and allthese wonderful things, but we
don't put it in the teacher'sevaluation.

(34:38):
When teachers are on strike, dothey ever strike?
And I've I've sat and beenacross a lot of strikes.
Do we strike for culturallyresponsive policy?
Right?
Do we strike for a bettercurriculum?
And we have to go on strike forlike money, benefits, those
things matter.

(35:00):
But uh similarly, we need bettereducational experiences for
students and for teachers in interms of pedagogy.
So, what I would like to see ishaving uh a more advanced, I'm
calling it advanced, but it'shistorical.
If we go back to black folks andancestors, they've given us the

(35:20):
guide and the blueprint and theblack print, right?
So if we reframe our learningstandards, or as the ancestors
called them, learning pursuits,and we say that these things
matter.
And just like we have, you know,students will be able to ask and
answer questions, we have goalsset around identity,

(35:43):
criticality, intellectualism,and joy.
And then our teachers havebetter curriculum to teach
around culturallyresponsiveness, perhaps around
these five pursuits.
So we're still teaching skills,but just in the context, we have
better themes and topics andtexts being selected.
I think we have to change theschool day and the school

(36:04):
structure.
The way we set school has notreally changed since the farm
days when kids had to be home towork on the farm.
Why are we making teachers teachwith no sabbaticals?
Why are we making teachers teachthe whole day with one planning
period?
Geniuses do not plan in oneperiod.
They need time to cultivatetheir genius and to co-design

(36:26):
and work that curriculum and getto know their students.
We're asking so much of teacherswith such small pay and not a
lot of time.
So if you're gonna pay me this,give me my time.
That's the next best thing.
I would even take time more thanpay the older I get, right?
So we need to restructure theschool day.

(36:48):
Principals, we need to thinkabout roles differently.
Principals and superintendentsneed to go in those classes and
teach.

SPEAKER_01 (36:57):
You know, I've always thought that.
Like you never really see theprincipals come in and just take
a day and just say, you know,let me come in here and teach.
Let me see what's going on.

SPEAKER_02 (37:05):
And I be a pedagogical leader, I've never
seen you teach.
Come on.

SPEAKER_01 (37:08):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (37:09):
My department chair teaches.
About all the department chairsI've had have always taught like
a graduate class orundergraduate class.
It's not just because it'simportant for us to see each
other as partners in that way,but it's important to experience
that joy of teaching if you'regonna lead teachers.
I still go, even though I'm aprofessor, I still go into

(37:32):
classrooms and volunteer andteach.
So we need to um change roles,schedules, um, expectations.
We need a better set of umassessments.
We always assess what we value.
I don't care if you're on adate, I don't care if you're in
a job interview, you're going,you're always gathering and

(37:54):
observing and assessing to seeif it holds true to the things
you value and the things thatyou want.
So the fact that we're onlyassessing skills based on
standards that we don't evenknow who wrote the standards,
right?
That's a problem.
You can assess joy, you canassess anything you value.
So we have to change thestandards, the curriculum, the

(38:19):
assessment.
We have to change teacherevaluation.
Teachers need to know that youcannot just teach in this using
a packet teaching skills only inthese deconscialized ways
without any justice being or joybeing involved because you're
being evaluated on it.
So now you're talking aboutmaking sure teacher programs and

(38:42):
teacher education, theuniversity programs match this.
But see, I would like to saythat universities program,
university programs like teacherprep, they've been doing a lot
of this stuff.
One university program had awhole class on joy for teachers.

SPEAKER_00 (38:59):
Wow.

SPEAKER_02 (39:00):
The problem is they're learning this at the
university oftentimes, not alluniversities, but most.
And then they go into thedistricts, and then like, uh-uh,
you can't use any of that stuffyou learned.
You gotta read this script oryou gotta follow this curriculum
that's non-responsive, you know.

(39:20):
So that's the problem.
Like these pieces all have tomatch, but ultimately we need
policies and mandate mandatesaround it because folks were so
easily to come in to say youcannot use the word culture,
identity, justice, oppression.
You can't teach these booksbecause there was no policy to

(39:42):
for them to even remove.
So they just came in with aswooped in with their policy,
and somehow, no, there wasn'tenough pushback on it.
Right.
So policy, policy, policy reallymatters, and that, and people
need to know that if you'regoing to be a teacher or a
leader here, that this is whatis mandated, required, or

(40:05):
expected.
I hope all that made sense.
Because I've been thinking Ithink about it every day.

SPEAKER_01 (40:09):
Yeah, and I thought, yeah, I could tell.
Yeah, it made sense.

SPEAKER_02 (40:14):
Like the secretary of education when I was like 20
years ago, I'm like, one day I'mgonna be secretary of education.
I would just keep a journal andeverything I would change.
But you know, I just think aboutit, just as an educator who's
been doing this for 24 years.

SPEAKER_01 (40:31):
I tell you, because now I'm gonna have to do my
diligence.
Like, who is writing these statestandards?
That's a good, that's a good,that's a good thing to research.
Maybe if you want to rabbit holedeep enough, you can't.

SPEAKER_02 (40:41):
Have they been teachers?
Yeah, because I was working witha publishing company, like one
of the oldest publishingcompanies, uh, textbook and
curriculum companies in the US.
And I asked them, how many ofyou have been teachers?
It was crickets.

SPEAKER_01 (40:56):
Wow.

SPEAKER_02 (40:57):
So I said, You're writing for our nation's
teachers, but you don't know,you don't know what it's like to
listen.
We gotta ask who is the authorof everything.
I don't care if you're watchinga news report, you read in a
book, you read in a book about,you know, indigenous history,

(41:18):
disability history, whatever itis.
Who wrote this?
Who's the author?

SPEAKER_01 (41:22):
Because anytime you hear them words right on this,
you hear them words study shows,you don't know who's doing the
studying and who's beingstudied.
It might it might not be us.
You know, that's just what itis.

SPEAKER_02 (41:33):
Exactly.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (41:35):
I want to say that I've heard you emphasize the
word joy a lot in ourconversation, uh, you know, up
to now, you know.
Um why is joy just as roof asrevolutionary as resistance in
the classroom?

SPEAKER_02 (41:53):
Well, joy was the purpose, the result, the reason
for the revolution.
You know, I don't care whatsocial cause for the good that
you want to study across worldhistory, where people are

(42:14):
fighting for their rights,they're fighting against things
like apartheid, enslavement.
They're really fighting fortheir joy.
So, you know, I look at how theancestors defined joy and how I
think about joy.
It wasn't just, you know, havingfun or celebration.

(42:37):
Joy was peace.
Joy was a content, it wasn'tsmiling every five seconds.
It you could be like that,peace, a contentment, and have
joy.
It was like the sustained,unmoving kind of peace.
It was wellness, it was healing.
The ancestors fought for joy.
The reason why Sister HarrietTubman kept going back and back

(43:00):
again, because she wanted herpeople to have joy.
Because she didn't have to keepgoing back, she must have been
exhausted and scared.
And she wanted people to havejoy, to feel happiness and peace
and wonderment andwhimsicalness.

(43:21):
So the joy was the ultimatereason for the revolution.
It is what we remember in ourlife.
We remember joy.
We remember that, like I wastalking about the joy that
flowed through my body when Iwas become wanting to become a
teacher.

(43:41):
That's the thing that keeps usalive.
Joy is connected to love.
So when people say like joy isnot a serious goal of education,
then I would say you don't knowwhat education is.

SPEAKER_01 (44:01):
Hold on, I gotta hit the applause on that one, yes,
ma'am.
Yes, ma'am.

SPEAKER_02 (44:15):
I think it's I don't know which finger to use though,
but um but you know what I'msaying?
You don't know what educationis.
If you think joy should beremoved, and why are you even
talking about education?
You shouldn't even be talkingabout it, let alone be in the
schools or classrooms.
So joy is what we fight for inour lives.

(44:35):
As soon as we wake up, we aretrying to get our joy, retain
our joy.
If so, if something takes itaway, or someone, we try to get
it back.
Joy is what moves us, and Iguarantee you, you know, I have
a 99-year-old grandmother.

SPEAKER_01 (44:50):
Oh, God bless.

unknown (44:51):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (44:52):
And she would tell me that all the the sort of
words that are connected to whatI I how I connect words to joy
like peace, kindness, love,gratefulness.
That is when I ask her, like,how what's the secret?
You know, we ask our elders,what's the secret to living 99

(45:13):
years?
She always says that.

SPEAKER_01 (45:15):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (45:15):
Joy and peace.

SPEAKER_01 (45:17):
Joy and peace.

SPEAKER_02 (45:18):
So it is is very much serious.
It helps with our health, ithelps us to understand purpose,
it helps to balance out thejustice.
There's no joy without justice.
Um, you cannot fully experienceand understand joy if you don't
understand justice of humanity.
And people who don't look likeyou, they're justice, right?

(45:39):
Because if it happens to them,you should feel it.
That's one of the problems insociety.
You know, we had so manychildren dying and being hurt,
and people just kind of sleptwell at night and kept going.
And it's like, no, we shouldfeel if we're all one, if
humanity is all one and we'reconnected to each other, really,

(46:01):
we should feel when a differentwhen a group of people is
hurting, even if they don't looklike us or speak our same
language or share our religiousviews or whatever, our
sexuality.
It doesn't matter.
Humanity is humanity and harm isharm.
So joy is very serious, and Igotta tell you, people, people

(46:22):
have gravitated to my work, butit's that joy piece that they
love the most.
Teachers became a teacherbecause of joy.
Leaders are saying, Oh, I'mchanging my staff meetings to
talk about joy and to bring somemusic in.
This is this is what we allneed.
It's not just the students andthe children, the adults need it

(46:45):
too.
Sometimes even more.

SPEAKER_01 (46:48):
It keeps you coming through the door every day, you
know.

SPEAKER_02 (46:50):
It keeps you coming and it keeps you happy, you
know.
I know there are people out herewho have to go to jobs that they
don't love and and they don'thave any inspiration by.
And we we want to feelfulfilled, we want that
fulfillment.
That's what joy offers.

SPEAKER_01 (47:09):
Yeah, and then you can look in the faces of people
who may come back later on andthank you for the joy you
brought down.
Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 (47:16):
Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 (47:18):
So that's a that's a good way of looking at it, and
I'm glad you said it that waybecause a lot of people need to
hear this because you're losingeducators and droves because
they lost their spark and theylost that joy.
So it's good that they they hearthis.
So let me ask you, in youropinion, what is the most
dangerous myth currently beingtaught, or intentionally or
unintentionally, in Americanschools?

(47:40):
What's the most dangerous thingthat you can see right now in
schools in America that's beingtaught?

SPEAKER_02 (47:47):
Wow, that's a good question.
The most dangerous thing thatthat's being taught Well that
you know, well, one, it's verydangerous to keep doing things
how we've been doing with thischanging and moving society.
Going back to that idea of justteaching decontextualized skills

(48:09):
um is dangerous.
The most dangerous thing is alsoerasing truth and history and
lying to children, thinking thatthey can't handle it.
Um it's also dangerous tobelieve that if I teach children
that um oppression happened andthe people who were oppressing

(48:31):
looked a certain way, thatthey're going to feel bad or
guilty for it.
That's very, that's a verydangerous, inappropriate
thought.

SPEAKER_01 (48:39):
Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (48:40):
You know, why would a child today, a seven-year-old,
feel bad for what ChristopherColumbus did and his violence
and abuse and killings?
Nobody is making that child feelbad.
There's this idea that justbecause they look like me, that

(49:01):
people are gonna think this iswho.
Instead of letting whitechildren or other people say,
you get to define your whiteidentity, you get to say, This
is who I am.
You don't have to see, you know.
I ask people, do you seeyourself more in Harriet Tubman
or Christopher Columbus?
I ask white people this youshould see yourself in their

(49:25):
character.
I mean, again, Sister Harrietwas no joke.
She was not to be played with,she knew the mission, she stayed
on code, she helped everybody.
Are you somebody that helpseverybody?
So it's it's like we becomethis, but you know, when people
feel that way and think thatway, that's because they're

(49:45):
really thinking more likeChristopher than Harriet.

SPEAKER_00 (49:49):
Wow.

SPEAKER_02 (49:50):
Like deep, deep, you confront all you want to, but I
don't know if you really feelingbad, maybe it's because you may
have some of those thoughts.
So that's between them and theircreator.
But my point is it's dangerousto say that children have to be
this way just because they looka certain way.

(50:12):
And and sometimes I joke andsay, you know, if somebody
robbed the the corner store downthe street with the same big
hoop earrings on, the samebraids, the same glasses, the
big bowl, and they got the samefit on as me.
I don't think I'm gonna likefeel bad about it because I
didn't do it and I don't want torob the store.

(50:35):
So folks gotta really grapplewith you know what's inside of
them.
I love my sisters and my bestfriends' work, Yolanda C.
Liberty East, because she helpspeople to unpack that and
unlearn stuff that's in them,whatever it might be, whether
it's racism, sexism, bias,Islamophobia, whatever it is,

(50:59):
it's been taught in condition,and we have to, and is in the
fact that we just ignore it andwe just try to cover it up is
dangerous for children.
Like we try to cover it up andsay, Well, children can't learn
it.
And then we look at what kind ofadults they become oftentimes,
and then like we really neededto teach them that.

(51:32):
It shouldn't just be aboutenslavement.
We gotta balance it out.
You know, I don't want to teachit either.
I don't want to teach a, youknow, I wrote a unit plan with a
writer, another writer, on theBlack Wall Street and the Tulsa
race massacre.

SPEAKER_00 (51:49):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (51:50):
Writing the unit, I'm editing it, I'm like, oh, I
don't want fourth graders tohave to relive this pain.
I'm reliving the pain.
You think I want this for achild?
I don't want the pain either.
But then they might grow upthinking that black people don't
come from wealth.
They they don't know that wecame from communities.
We had it all, and folks burnedit down.

(52:11):
See, they won't know.
They may think that the storystarted here instead of way back
there.

SPEAKER_00 (52:16):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (52:17):
So we have to know purpose, we have to tell the
truth.
That's the only way we reconcileand heal from the past.

SPEAKER_01 (52:26):
And see, like I I love what you just said right
there, because even when I'maround children, and I love when
I'm around different race racechildren, you know.
I don't care how old you are,I'll tell you straight up and
down.
There was a period in time whereyou guys couldn't sit together.
You know, there are a lot ofpeople who fought and died for

(52:47):
this particular situation.
If you know they're acting up inclass, hey, you know, somewhere
down the line today there's achild who's running for his or
her life in another part of theworld, and you have the
opportunity to sit here andlearn comfortably.
You know, and I think that ifyou don't kind of put those
things in them, they don't knowwhat the mission is anymore, you

(53:09):
know.
So it's like you're here andyou're able to, you know, be
here and be comfortable andlearn and and take this thing
you know seriously, as opposedto I'm just here and I'm just
gonna go forth and not take mylearning seriously.
But I think to your point, Dad,it's because we in education
shelter that portion of thestory where they don't know.

(53:31):
And so if we don't present it tothem, then they won't know what
the mission really is.
How far we've we've come.
So I want to ask you also likeright now, we live in a climate
of books being banned, like wetalked earlier, history being
rewritten, and just the youknow, the critical race theory
backlash, all of that.
So, how do a teacher stay boldif you know you're able to give

(53:55):
this message to a teacher?
And and what's your message forthose who feel like they're
being silenced when they want toteach these things?

SPEAKER_02 (54:03):
Well, you know, it it's my hope and prayer that
every, as I said before, liketeachers get to walk into their
their spaces of work, theirinstitutions, their schools, and
feel that joy that flowsthroughout their body, but feel
like they don't have to stifleor silence parts of themselves

(54:24):
to be loved, accepted, and togrow, you know, more
importantly, to like grow, tohave their genius cultivated to
to if you're afraid, and this islike joy is a safe space to be
free.
But if you don't feel safe, youcan't be free, you're not gonna
grow, you're not gonna live upto your potential as a teacher.

(54:48):
So, like my hope is thatteachers get to be in buildings
that honor and support and loveon them and that allow them to
feel safe and grow, right?
That's the first part.
And I know that folks are kindof feeling stuck in a school
because they're like, I've beenhere, it's too hard to leave.
I can't, I got retirement buildsup.

(55:11):
It's so much right when youcan't go some of that, you'd be
free because you know,professors do that because we
have to leave the field, then wehave to go to school.
Some of us go to school fulltime, major pay cuts, and then
we go, we got like pensions andretirements across different
states.
It's almost like we're startingnew every time, right?

(55:31):
But it is something that feels alittle freeing with it too,
because you don't feel like youjust have to stay in a job just
because you got your years in.

SPEAKER_00 (55:40):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (55:41):
Do you got your freedom in?
Do you got your joy in?
That's the question.
But I'm going to always suggestonce they're in a space that
really nurtures them, I'm alsogonna suggest to get your
people, get your village.
You can't, if you're in a spacethat is very stifling, I've been
at jobs like that.
The best thing you can do isrealize it's a job, go home and

(56:03):
take care of yourself, drinkwater, exercise, be with your
family, love on your children,yourself, uh, your spouse,
whoever, like you gotta takecare of yourself.
You can't get sick.

unknown (56:13):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (56:14):
And then I'm gonna suggest get your community, your
people, community.
As um a sister friend told merecently, like, this is the
thing that's gonna save us rightnow.
Like, who's your community?
And even if it's not people inproximity to you, like in terms
of location in your city ortown, you know, get together,

(56:35):
virtual meetings, healingsessions, whatever you have to
do to lift and grow together andto talk about these dilemmas and
problems.
Like, I was I was with mysisters, Bettina Love and Um
Annalise Singh and Tori and Dr.

(56:56):
Dillard, and it's a bunch of us.
And the first question was askedto us on a panel.
Um, what are the problems ineducation?
And you know, my my answer was,well, damn, I forgot the
problems in education becauseI'm having so much pure joy, you
know.
It's like I forgot about theproblems for just a second, you

(57:19):
know.
That's what sisterhood, that'swhat community brotherhood,
that's what happens when youhave community.
You get to kind of just be in aloving vortex, and that's what I
want.
Get your people together to getyour mind right, right?
Study the stuff, get ahead ofthem.
You know, like I'm always readyfor the people that agree with

(57:43):
me.
Those are nice.
That's always nice, but I'm evenmore prepared for the people
that don't.
And so cultivate that mind to beready.
You know, I go through scenariosin my mind.
Oh, what about somebody saythis?
Hit you with this, Goldie.
What you gonna say?
That's what that's I don't spendall my time doing that, but I

(58:04):
spend a lot of my time likereally preparing myself and
preparing mentally for it sothat when it comes, I I have
some self-preservation around itand I'm prepared to speak on
something and to protect myselfand my livelihood.
So those are some things I wouldsuggest for sure.

SPEAKER_01 (58:20):
Okay.
And I wanted to ask too, um, Iknow you you you have the Hill
model, right?
And this is just something thatjust popped in my mind as this
conversation was going.
So the histories, identities,literacies, liberation.
We focus a lot on schools and wefocus a lot on teachers and we
focus a lot on students.
But what about community?

(58:41):
Like, how do we get thecommunity involved, the village,
if you would like to to inregards to nurturing these kids?
I had a teacher one timeProfessor Neum actually was a
principal of the uh at a school,and he said the one thing that
he did um with his staff beforethe the school year started was

(59:06):
walk them around theneighborhood.
It's like inner city school.
So they walk them around aneighborhood, let the teachers
see what the kids are dealingwith and who they're dealing
with every day once they leavethis building.
And it kind of gives you like anidea of what's coming in the
door when school starts.
So when I'm looking at thatmodel and I'm looking at the
history, the identity, theliteracy, the liberation, how do

(59:29):
we get the community involved insomething like this?
We can take that hill model andstill put it in the community so
they can teach the children evenwhen we're not in school.

SPEAKER_02 (59:39):
Yeah, well, when we say the heel and what those
letters stand for, it's not justa broader societal or nationwide
histories or ancestral'shistories.
It's the history of thecommunity, the people in the
community, the history of yourfamily, the history of your
neighborhood.
It's not when we say, you know,I For identities, it is the

(01:00:02):
identities of the community.
How has it shifted, changed?
Um, who's there, who's among usin the community?
Um, it's the literacies of thecommunity, too.
You know, isn't and when I sayliteracies, I'm not just talking
about like spoken language, butum the words we say, the things

(01:00:23):
we know, the looks, thenonverbal, the body language,
the you know, as well as all thedifferent kinds of spoken
languages.
And then when I say liberation,I'm talking about the liberation
of the teachers of the communitytoo, in the families.
So all of that has communityties.

(01:00:43):
I also think um community mustbe tied into our curriculum.
So, you know, I've been writingmy K5 curriculum, um, and I'm
still in it right now, I'm stilldoing the writing.
But I asked myself that samequestion like, how can we
involve?
I got tired of like, I rememberreading like some of Detroit's

(01:01:07):
history, I mean curriculum, andI didn't really see Motown
prevalent at the time.
This was just one point of time,it's very different now.
But I said, wow, do students getto know the genius of their
community, the justice of theircommunity, the joy, because I
talk about genius, justice, joy.
And so with my curriculum, Isaid, Well, there has to be a

(01:01:31):
localizing the content section.
So there's a section calledlocalizing the content.
So if you're teaching aboutTulsa, which is one of the units
on the race massacre in theBlack Wall Street, children are
finding the businesses that areblack-owned in their
communities, whether you live inGary, Indiana, Chicago, Atlanta,

(01:01:55):
who wherever you are, or a smalltown, you're looking at those
local businesses.
So I think that's one way withthe curriculum to involve the
community.
I also have a section calledlike family engagement, where
they can engage families,caregivers, communities.
There's a social action at theend of every unit plan where it

(01:02:17):
takes the community and bringsthem into this is what we just
learned, list extended withcommunity members.
So, you know, our schools don'texist without communities.
We we should not neglect them ornot involve them.
We should build around them, weshould build our curriculum

(01:02:38):
around them.
See, so much uh is alreadycreated in schools, and then we
say, Oh, and then the community.
No, it's the community andeverything else is built with it
and around it.

SPEAKER_01 (01:02:52):
And I also want to add on to that because even you
know, with all that said andcommunity, everything you said
is excellent.
I also think two things thataren't really taught within the
communities or schools of thatnature is um knowing your
rights, which is a big thing,like just knowing your legal
rights to law.
I don't think you're never tooyoung to learn that, especially

(01:03:15):
now with this political climatewhere they're sending these
agents to go do whatever andpeople don't really know their
rights.
And I don't care if you'reblack, brown, or whatever.

SPEAKER_02 (01:03:23):
Yeah, I mean, it's we're getting every the black
and brown folks are getting thatright now.
I remember a teacher sent me aunit plan maybe about seven
years ago, because her childrenwere being taken and put it and
put in like detainee centers inSan Antonio, Texas.
Wow, and so she taught them howto engage in argumentation and

(01:03:45):
and immigration discourse.
She was teaching them thesethings.
I think it was like sixth orseventh grade.
Yes, that's genius, and is it'shelping them protect themselves
and their people.
And when I say their people, ithelps them to protect the people
they love and care about.

SPEAKER_01 (01:04:02):
Yes, yes.
So I'd say that also financialliteracy, like we can talk about
you know Tulsa and all of andnot just Tulsa, but all the
black communities that weredestroyed that actually were
thriving black black towns atthe time.
All of them built that wealth,they built that community, you

(01:04:22):
know, and they knew how to toyou know build wealth and
financing.
And yeah, there's something Ithink that it's a liberation in
that as well to be able to buildthat wealth for your family and
all generationally.
And these are things that Ithink the community don't know.
And even in terms of um goingback to legal standards, a lot

(01:04:42):
of parents who come into schoolsare not, you know, um taught the
legalities of having specialneeds children.
Like a lot of them don't knowthat these are the things that
you need to ask for, these arethe things you need to advocate
for.
Um they don't know.

SPEAKER_02 (01:04:57):
So uh where would they know that if they didn't
like formally study it?
Like who should give it to them?
The schools.

SPEAKER_00 (01:05:06):
They should.

SPEAKER_02 (01:05:06):
It could be the libraries, the community
centers, and things like that.
But you know, I think there's anexpectation that, you know,
parents have to be, you know,should already come in knowing
that information.
Okay, well, teach them it, youdon't complain that they don't
know, and then as a schoolcommunity or district community,
you provide no, you didn'tcreate any kind of space to to

(01:05:31):
educate.
Here you are, supposed to be thehub of education, right?
And you're not educating.
Come on.

SPEAKER_01 (01:05:37):
Yeah, and I think it's a grave injustice, you
know.
Uh let me ask you, you know, aswe're in our final moments
together and all, uh, 10 yearsfrom now, what's your vision for
education?
And what scares you in adirection that we might be
headed?

SPEAKER_02 (01:05:53):
Well, anytime we go backwards, that's scary.
Backward thinking, backward, andwhat didn't work before.
I remember I saw a school leadersay, Oh, we need longer school
days.
And I said, Oh, they tried that10 years ago, 20 years ago, it
didn't work then.
You know.
Any kind of backward thinkingscares me.

(01:06:16):
And you know, I like to thinkthese last 10 years, we were
making great progress.
We had, you know, acrossdistricts, and we still do have
great leaders.
You know, equity was like thecool thing to do.
Everybody wanted it, and thenpeople got scared, and then it's
like shut down.

(01:06:37):
They changed the names ofoffices.
But I want people to see thatit's a good thing.
It's not just good for black andbrown folks, it's good for all
folks.
Um, and I just want to see thatsame progress.
I would love to see joy beingspoken, just spoken and enacted

(01:06:58):
and a serious pursuit, asserious as the state learning
standards, um, as well asidentity and consciousness and
criticality, as we've beensaying.
I want to see curriculum comealive.

SPEAKER_00 (01:07:10):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (01:07:11):
You know, in in writing, I think by uh the
spring, I would have written 120lesson plans, uh that you know,
and then um 36 unit plans.
And I I mean I have a unit plan,a lesson plan on knocked out

(01:07:37):
jokes.
I just I want people to see likethe joy and the the ways in
which a curriculum can bemanifested to like be like the
thing worth living for.
Like it it can be so special andbeautiful and thoughtful, it can

(01:08:02):
be silly, it can be knock-knockjokes, it can be, you know, I
also have like the AsianExclusion Act, the Chinese
Exclusion Act in the 1800s inthere in the same group level,
you know, like it can be all thethings, it doesn't have to just
be the injustices, it can be thejoy.

(01:08:24):
So that's what I would like tosee in 10 years.
Um, I'm I hope that you know thethe things that I'm creating,
I'm creating them not justbecause it's fun and joyful for
me to write curriculum, but I'mcreating curricular curriculum
for parents, for educators,because I want them to see the

(01:08:45):
possibility of what we can beteaching and how we can teach
it.
If I get people to kind of comealong with like the different
things we can teach and then thedifferent ways we can teach it,
I think you know we could feel adifference in our schools.

SPEAKER_01 (01:09:03):
That's wonderful.
That's wonderful to hear.
Now, what's one truth the worldtries to silence that you'll
never stop speaking?
Um because you said you said alot.

SPEAKER_02 (01:09:17):
Yeah, we really didn't land on the moon.
I'm just kidding.

SPEAKER_01 (01:09:21):
Listen, if if my brother J.
Rob was here, he'd tell you.
He's like, we don't believe inthe moon landing, but you know.

SPEAKER_02 (01:09:27):
Don't watch those conspiracy theory videos.
But you know, I don't I don'tthink all truths or falsehood
needs to be said.
I feel like God knows the truth.
I don't need to say that in myin my life.
But one truth I'm just gonnakeep saying, you know, uh that

(01:09:52):
humanity is worth it.
Like we are worth fighting forthat black folks are genius and
joy.
And um, because my work, mylife, being a black woman, uh,
you know, that's always theclosest to me.
Um, so I'm always going to talkabout genius and joy um across

(01:10:13):
humanity.
And when it's time to talk aboutthe the giving some specificity
to blackness.

SPEAKER_01 (01:10:21):
Oh, wonderful.
Okay.
And finally, what's one worthypiece of advice you will give to
the next generation?
And I deem you as this a freedomfighter, you know, educator and
a cultural truth teller.
What what advice can you give tothat person that's looking at
you and saying, you know what?

(01:10:42):
I wanna not say so much as belike Dr.
Muhammad, but maybe go a littlebit further than what Dr.
Muhammad did with what shetaught us.

SPEAKER_02 (01:10:51):
Yeah, no, um, I'm gonna say the advice that was
given to me um in Islam by myMuslim mother.
Um she told me to always um saywhat is best or or do not say
anything at all.
Be be quiet, like just be quietif you got nothing, if it's not
the best things off your tongue.

(01:11:12):
But when I write and speak, Iwas advised to answer three
questions.
Um is what you're about to sayor what you're about to write,
is it truthful?
Um is it number two, kind?
You know, I've never reallyweaponized knowledge, like learn

(01:11:33):
this, learn the hill model.
I don't do that.
Um, and then the third question,is it necessary?
And you know, that gets methrough a lot, and sometimes it
it may just not be necessary orin that moment, but 10 minutes
from now, okay, it's time.

(01:11:55):
It doesn't mean like I'm alwaysasking myself that, even if it's
you know, in the same moment.

SPEAKER_01 (01:12:02):
Okay, that's wonderful.
And I know that we have the twobooks.
Are we working on the third one?

SPEAKER_02 (01:12:10):
Well, the the the next sort of generation of work
um is all about curriculum.
So there are two more bookscoming, and those are the 120
lesson plans, right?
So there's a book of 60 lessonplans across mathematics,
science, ELA, arts and culture,and social studies.

(01:12:30):
So you have all the differentdisciplines and content areas.
Um, these are lessons that canbe taught in like 30 minutes or
extended to a full um longerdays or weeks.
So um that's called Nurturingthe Mind and the Heart.
So it takes the two books that Iwrote previously and put it into

(01:12:55):
like really practical pick-upand go lesson plans for parents
to use, paraprofessionals,teachers, community members,
anyone who loves education andhave children in front of them.
And then the second majorproject, which is my heart, um,
is uh the genius enjoycurriculum.

(01:13:15):
So again, it takes my model, mywork, uh, my 24 years in
education and all the roles I'veplayed and everything I've come
to read and know and experienceof what's needed in teaching and
learning and pedagogy, puttogether in a K5 curriculum.
And uh it is so beautiful.

(01:13:36):
I cannot understand that, y'all.
It really is like the learningis so innovative and cool and
differentiated.
It is and I work with a team ofwe call them the genius garden
of writers.
I wrote uh worked with anincredible writing team because
writing curriculum is such ait's a task.

(01:13:58):
It's a lot to it.

SPEAKER_01 (01:14:00):
I have interviewed a lot of a lot of writers on this
show, and I always have to takemy hat off to the commitment
that it takes to put somethingon the page, you know.

SPEAKER_02 (01:14:12):
And it's a different genre of writing for a teacher
you've never met, for childrenyou have never met, but you love
them.
So that'll be out in uh so myfirst book will come out April
2026.
The second one is um January forK2.
The K2 version of it of the bookis um January 2027.

(01:14:35):
That's the plan.
And then the K5 curriculum willbe ready for um, I guess
pre-order this spring of 2026and be released fall 2026.
So, you know, hopefully maybe alittle break after that, because
it's been go, go, go since 2020,since cultivating genius for

(01:14:57):
sure.

SPEAKER_01 (01:14:57):
All right.
And do you see yourself, I justhad to ask this, do you see
yourself um writing anythingoutside of you know, curriculum
or anything like that, anythingeducation related?

SPEAKER_02 (01:15:09):
Yeah, I I've been writing outside of education,
you know, since I learned how towrite, you know.
Um, but in terms of like wherein my life I have written, I you
know, they're not published, andmaybe they will be someday.
Several children's books.
Um, I write a lot of poetry.

SPEAKER_01 (01:15:28):
I can see you doing it.

SPEAKER_02 (01:15:29):
I write letters.
I've been writing letters tomyself since I was a little
girl, and I have them all.
And I used to um also writeacceptance speeches for like
made-up awards and honors.
I've been doing that also sinceI was a little girl, and I did
it throughout grad school.
I would I would make up like,oh, you're gonna get the

(01:15:50):
community award.
But you know what it was reallydoing?
It was helping me to work towardwhat really matters.
I was working toward thecommunity because I had already
accepted the fictitious award.
So I write all sorts of things,um, whatever, you know, songs
and um wherever like my pentakes me, I just go.

SPEAKER_01 (01:16:12):
Well, I gotta say, that letters to yourself title
sounds.
I don't know if anybody everused that title for a book, but
you might want to consider thatone.

SPEAKER_00 (01:16:21):
Yeah, maybe.
Yeah, I think all right.

SPEAKER_01 (01:16:25):
I thank you so much for your time, Dr.
Muhammad.
You freedom fighter, educator,cultural disruptor.
I'm loving every minute of thisconversation.
Thank you.
Thank you so much.
You gave us a lot to chew on,you know.
So I think, and I want you toknow um, on behalf of myself and
my brothers, even though they'renot here right now, once you

(01:16:48):
have something you're ready topromote, you got a space here.

SPEAKER_02 (01:16:52):
I appreciate that.
Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 (01:16:54):
No problem at all.
And I just want to say thank youonce again, all right, for
making space for us.
Yeah, it's a very enrichingconversation, y'all.
So please check out those books,Unearthing Joy.
And also the um, oh I'm I'msorry, I gotta get old, guys.
I'm getting old.
Alright, so Unearthing Joy andalso the uh cultivating genius

(01:17:17):
and equity framework forculturally and historically
responsive literacy.
Please, even if you're ateacher, student, whatever, pick
this up.
Especially if you're in college,you love stuff like this.
Alright, the only one mitepodcast is available on all my
on all platforms to stream yourpodcasts on.
Also check out our Only OneMight Podcast YouTube channel to
catch up on the past and comingepisodes.

(01:17:38):
Please don't forget to rate theshare and subscribe.
We thank you for all our newsubscribers.
Thank you for the engagement.
Please like, share, keep doingwhat you're doing, we appreciate
it.
We're on Instagram and X at theOnly One Mike D1, Facebook and
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contact us via email at the onlyone mic00gmail.com or call or

(01:18:01):
text us at 302 367 7219 and haveyour comments and questions
played on the show.
Thank you once again, Dr.
Mohammed.
Always a pleasure.
And all right, and you of theaudience, we thank you for your
time and encourage you to speakyour truth quietly and clearly
and listen to others, even thedull and the ignorant, because
they too have their story totell.
So until next time, Doc, thisone is for you.

(01:18:22):
Each one, teach one.
If you can't find one, then talkto the little ones, and you'll
see that they're listening toFeel the Missing Peace to Rise
and Shine.
Peace up.