March 21, 2025 • 20 mins
This week on the Open Seat we welcome Fr. David Whalen, OSFS, discussing his journey and experiences in religious life as an Oblate of St. Francis. Father Dave talks about his background, career, and various roles as an Oblate, from teaching and serving as a high school principal to being the Provincial. He provides insights into Salesian spirituality, emphasizing its fitting and challenging aspects. He also offers advice for those beginning their faith journey, shares the importance of prayer, and the need for humility in understanding that one could always be wrong.
This is a podcast of Holy Family Parish, located in Adrian MI. We are a Catholic people, not a place, striving to Live Jesus through celebrating the sacraments and forming disciples in Adrian and beyond.
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Open Seat es un podcast Parroquia de la Sagrada Familia ubicada en Adrian, Michigan. Somos un pueblo católico, no un lugar, que se esfuerza por vivir a Jesús celebrando los sacramentos y formando discípulos en Adrian y más allá.
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(00:00):
Salesian spirituality fitsfor me.
It fits not becauseit, it lets me off, It
challenges me enough totry and be a better person every
day.
It challenges me enough totry to be aware of the
presence of God every day,but it does it in a nice way.
Welcome to Open Seat, thepodcast where we create
a space for authenticconversations about faith,
(00:22):
unfiltered and unapologetic.
Here, we believe thatevery story matters.
Whether you're questioning,seeking, or steadfast in
your beliefs, you'll findsomething relatable in
these heartfelt discussions.
So grab your seat, getcomfortable, and let's
dive into today's storyhere at Open Seat.
(00:47):
Today in the open seat, wehave Father Dave Whalen,
OSFS, joining us Thankyou, sir, for joining us.
It's my pleasure.
we have had minimalinteractions with you
here at the parish.
You've comeand helped teach some classes.
You've comein and done some confessions.
Why don't you tell us alittle bit about who you are?
as you said, my nameis Father David Whalen.
I was born at a very young age.
(01:09):
That's supposed to get a laugh.
I'm glad to hear thatyou were born at a young
age, you know?
a place called Lockport, NewYork, Lockport, New York.
Niagara Falls, andBuffalo form a bit of a
triangle.
And, so I was born inLockport, entered the
community from Lockport.
I have been all over the place.
I started out, as we all did inthose days, I started out in
Childs, Maryland.
Washington, D. C.
interesting thing, I wasin Washington the day that
(01:32):
President Kennedywas assassinated.
and I remember that asif it were yesterday,
unfortunately.
graduatedfrom Niagara University.
Did student teachingin Philadelphia.
Went back to Washingtonfor theology.
after theology, I went toSt. Francis for three years.
Then I was principal inSalt Lake City for 7 years
Then I was in Toronto for 20years as a, quote,
(01:54):
scholastic master.
But I also,I got my doctorate there and I
was working in the universitythere Came back to
Toledo for, 8 years asprovincial.
Then 10 years as pastor.
And now I amwhat they call senior status
Senior status means theytrust you to blow the
candles out, but not to lightthem.
Well Senior statusalso just means
you're repurposed,because, you're not retired.
(02:17):
No, I do not like theword I mean, I have
as full a schedule as Ican handle.
Right now, I teach Latin toour 7th and 8th grade.
Mondays and Thursdays, I'm atRosary Care Center on
Sundays, Tuesdays, andWednesdays.
I'm at the VisitationMonastery the first
full week of the month.
and then I'm at St. Francis inour campus ministry office
on Wednesday afternoons,so that's as full
(02:39):
as I can do right now.
It's not as full as I would liketo do, you know,
but I am beginning to realizethat, the word no is slowly
coming into my vocabulary.
It's not in my mind, but, I'mrealizing that there are
times when you have to say no.
The spirit is willing.
The body is weak.
Exactly.
what was your favoriteministry that you've done?
difficult one to answer becauseI can, answer it in the reverse
(03:01):
order, that I've neverdone anything that I, didn't
like doing.
I was, surprised withsome of it.
when I was in Salt LakeCity, for example,
and Fr. Paul Grail,called And said,
we want you to go toToronto And I said, why?
And he said, wewould like you to be
involved in formation.
That was a, thatwas scary thing.
I was going from a diocesewhere there were 30
priests in the dioceseof Salt Lake City.
(03:24):
I knew every one of them.
I was president ofthe priest council.
I was the representativefrom the diocese to
the broader thing.
And I was goinginto another country Yeah.
That, the city was biggerthan the state, so that
was scary when I firstgot there.
And my first yearthere was, was rough,
trying to adjust to it.
When I left there,the tears flowed down my
face, so I've lovedeverything I've done.
(03:44):
I have never been involvedin a ministry that I did not
fall in love with.
And to say which one would,was higher or lower, I would
be not telling the truth.
It's probably like picking yourfavorite child, right?
That's an easy one CauseI don't have any.
Well, a chance to do?
Again, I can't think of it.
I have been involvedin education most of my life.
(04:07):
I started out as most of ourguys did, by teaching at the
high school level.
Then I became a highschool principal.
When I went to, Canada,I was chaplain for
the first two years ata Christian Brothers
school, and then they offeredme the job in the Faculty of
Theology at St. Michael's.
And the policy was, at thattime, that you had to have at
least what they call a dualmaster's degree.
And I had threemaster's degrees.
(04:28):
But what I discovered isthey really wanted a D
somewhere in there, D min.
I started the doctoral thing.
I love working with ideas.
I loved working with the adults.
I loved working with peoplewho were involved in ministry.
it was kind of theapex of the time in Toronto,
so I really truly did love that.
When I came back, Ididn't expect to be
provincial, and I,made no provision for
it, so when we cameback per chapter and I got
(04:49):
elected, I thought, nowwhat do I do?
?So I had to goback and resign and
then moved to Toledo.
That was adifficult thing to start, And
there were parts of it I didnot like.
But, what I did likeis getting to know our
men, in a type of respectfulintimacy, is the only way I
could describe it.
So, part of the roleof the provincial is
that you meet with everybodyonce a year, and you
(05:09):
try to engage in aconversation that's beneficial
both for you and forthe other person, and
as a result of it, youjust grow.
There's just no way that youcan do that and not come away
and say, Wow, we got some prettygood guys in the office, so.
I think of anything that Ididn't like.
I'll take that back.
I had to do a lot of legal workat one point
(05:30):
in time when I was provincial.
I know very littleabout canon law.
I know a great deal about canonlaw now.
but having to sitdown and, put all that together.
That was a little bit tough.
everybody went home and Iwould stay in the office
until 10 o'clock at nightand try to figure out how to go
there to there.
That was notparticularly exciting.
But other than that,I've enjoyed
everything I'm doing.
And even now,Strange as it may be,
going from high schoolto graduate school to 7th
(05:51):
and 8th grade, I have nodifficulty that.
one of the thingsthat you alluded to
that I find absolutelyfascinating about
religious life isyou're just a somebody in
the fold of all the brothersand then you get
elected provincialAnd now you're in charge
of everybody.
And then you goback into the fold
of somebody, How does themindset happen like that
(06:11):
where you're just like emergego back, because usually
when someone becomes a Dignifiedperson we put them in a higher
status class wiseThat's just not
part of religious life.
I was on our generalcouncil for, six years
or something like that.
That was a uniqueexperience, because, I was
working with our FatherGeneral and the other
counselors, and I got to seeOblates around the world, and
(06:32):
I grew from it, there'sno question about it.
And then the term wasover, and it's over, that's it.
so I said, I did not plan to beelected provincial,
because I made no provisionwhen I left Toronto to
come to chapter.
And as we started to gothrough, I thought,
Something may be happening here.
Don't vote for me.
Don't vote well, no,I wouldn't say that
because then that'sselfishness, But, when I became
(06:54):
provincial, I gaveit everything I possibly could.
and all of thesethings in religious life
are timed, And when that is overwith, it's over.
And the bigger thing isthat you're a part of the
community, and whether youare the provincial here, or
you're washing dishes here,or you're driving a car here,
or you're teachinga Latin class there, they
are all part of this one circle,I don't know if that makes
(07:18):
any sense to you.
It is different.
For example, with,say with, a bishop,
the bishop is, ordained abishop and is going to be a
bishop forever,officially he has to
submit his resignation to theHoly Father at 75,
but apparently theHoly Father has been
letting some of themstay on for a few
more years after that.
Same thing is at the parish.
you have to submit yourresignation to the
Toledo diocese at 75I got to 78 before
(07:39):
they caught me, so.
I know you've taught some RCIAclasses.
in the church, I thinkwe're in a, a, more
fruitful time than other timesin the past.
statistically we're looking at alittle bit of growth.
So what advice would yougive to somebody who's just
starting their faith?
there's severalthings that come to mind.
One is be honest,You cannot form any kind of a
relationship unless there'shonesty.
(08:01):
I used to do this with,marriage counseling,
I would say if you lienow, because you think
you're going to pleasesomebody, it's going
to come back and haunt youand so you're at a point now
where you can be ruthlessly,honest.
And I would say the same thing.
If you are going to walkinto the faith
then first of all,just be honest.
And that honesty can be stronglyin favor of something, it can be
strongly against something,but at least you know
(08:22):
where you're, coming from.
That's number one.
Number two is,remember it's a journey.
my faith journey will be overabout 15 minutes after I'm
dead, and to think that Ican end it all, or I can
put it all togethernice and neatly at
this point in time.
It just isn't true, So those arethe two things that would strike
me.
It's been interesting overthe years to walk with people
who are going on thiswhole faith journey thing.
(08:44):
Because people come fromdifferent backgrounds,
different experiences,some people
are reluctant to take anotherstep because they're afraid.
Some people feel theygot the Holy Ghost in them
and they're going right topoint, you know.
Uh huh.
And that's all part of it.
I suspect that each onehas a somewhat of a unique
story.
I think, of ourCatholic faith is it has room
for a lot of different stories.
(09:05):
it's not a question ofthis is what you have to be,
pointblank, No, there's room for a
lot of different stories.
And the beauty of it is, allthose stories meld together.
That makes me think ofsomething.
I am dual citizenof the United States and Canada.
very proud of it, by the way.
Is that due to your 30 years inToronto?
Yeah, see, I didn'tthink I was coming back.
And Canada has nodifficulty with dual
citizenship.
And I reached a certain pointwhere I thought,
(09:27):
I don't want to give upmy American citizenship, but
I know more aboutwhat's going on here, and
I want to have a voicehere, so I took out
dual citizenship.
the United Statesbuilt it's, ethos
around the melting pot thing.
So whatever you were,you came in and it all
went in and you got,Canada built it on the quilt.
and so all these other variousethnic backgrounds are just
(09:48):
part of a beautiful quilt.
that is Canada.
And I think of the church inthat way, that
the church has roomfor, a whole variety of people,
variety of experiences, awhole different, set of, of,
expectations.
But in this beautifulquilt called the Catholic
Church, that's a great vision.
It also ties into St. Francis deSales who talked about,
(10:11):
university.
Yeah.
I don't, I can't saythe word, but anyway.
The basic notionis you can be united
and you can haveindividuality going on at the
same time.
time and that'snot always the case and
that's what I love about thestories as you were talking
about, everybody comes fromdifferent
backgrounds and insteadof creating One melting pot,
(10:33):
one section of us.
we allow everyone to be theirindividual, devotions or
their whatever, and thenwe work to form a beautiful
tapestry.
what about Salesian Spiritualityattracts you.
Everything.
it really does.
but it's taken a long timefor that happen.
I went to a high schoolwhere our men taught.
(10:53):
And so bits And pieces ofit were part of it.
When I entered the community,I entered the community, a long
time ago.
interesting bit of trivia.
There were 40 of us who madeour first profession of vows 62
years ago.
I'm the only Really?
They're all up theresomewhere, but I'm the only
one left of that group.
So over the years,bits and pieces of it
(11:16):
you pick up,so it would be difficult for
me to identify one particularpart of it.
and at a certainpoint in time, it
becomes so much a part of youthat I can't think of
it being anything else.
I am Irish Catholicon both sides, my
mother's familywere from County Kerry.
she was actually born in theUnited States, but her sister
was born in Ireland.
My grandmother wasborn in, Ireland.
(11:36):
My father's family was fromCork.
I don't know any other wayof being, than to be Irish
Catholic, which means we pray alot, we swear a lot, We drink
a lot, we fight a lot.
we make up a lot, and we go tomass, and then
we say what we thinkabout the priest, and then we
go to mass again.
Then we go to confession.
It's part the Irishit would be the
same thing with thewhole Salesian thing, I
don't know of another way ofliving, than the way I'm
(11:57):
living right now.
And it fits me, I have, inmy later life, developed a real
appreciation for the founder ofour community, Father Brisson.
I'm reading him every day, mostevery day, today probably won't
be because I won't get back intime.
But I just watch this mandevelop, and I think, I
know exactly what you're goinggoing through.
What was the bestpiece of advice you
received in your life?
(12:18):
Fr. Tom McNamara, God rest hissoul, said to me Be good to
me, them good to themthe way going up
because you'll meetthem on the way coming down.
and again, thatfits into our whole thing.
if you're notcareful, you can get a certain.
Headiness, When you're ina position.
When you're the principalof the school, for example, and
you can say, No, this isgoing to go there, and
that's going to get, You canget this little headiness
headiness, and so yeah, you maytoday, be able to say,
(12:41):
Stand up, sit down,fight, fight, fight.
Tomorrow, somebody'sgoing to say to you, stand up,
down, fight, fight, fight,What's your favorite part
of religious life?
Because there's a lot of aspectsto it, right?
a challenging part?
Oh, the challenging part isto be what I, profess to
to be Salesian spiritualityas it's come down to us
in the Oblate thingis a strongly interior
that's challenging, Theessence of Salesian
(13:02):
spirituality is togo no more than 15 minutes an
hour, without anactive awareness of the presence
of God.
And so, that's why,it's in our, what
we call our rule.
That there's aspirations thatare made every 15 minutes.
So that I don't go morethan 15 minutes without
being actively awareof the presence of God.
That's tough.
Do you have littlethings that remind you?
(13:23):
I know some of the youngerOblates I know have set alarms
back at St. Pius we have a,clock that, know.
Chimes off the thing.
After doing this for some 60some years, I'm
somewhat conscious of it.
But that's a great challengeThe challenge is to
be as actively awareof the presence of God as I can
(13:43):
be in the course of the day.
That's a good thought for allof us.
us the simple essenceof Salesian spirituality is
don't forget who you are.
No matter what happens, don'tforget who you are.
You are literally made in theimage and likeness of God.
If God wants to know whathe looks like, he looks at You
if he'sgoing to look at me, I got
to keep that mirror a littlecleaner than
I would like to at times, youknow.
and that's what I'm tryingto do with spirituality.
(14:05):
So, is there afavorite thing you
have about Salesianspirituality?
Because we talked about thechallenge now.
Is there a favorite part of it?
it fits.
I know that's a strange thing tosay, but it fits me.
Now, would somethingelse fit me?
Would it fit me to beBenedictine?
Would it fit me to a Diocesan?
I don't know, becauseI haven't been there.
But this fits,It's like the comfortable shoes,
(14:27):
you know, you say,well, maybe I should
get a new pair of shoes,but I like these, they fit.
Salesian spirituality fitsfor me.
It fits not becauseit, it lets me off, It
challenges me enough totry and be a better person every
day.
It challenges me enough totry to be aware of the
presence of God every day,but it does it in a nice way.
It says, David, I know,you're old, so I'm not gonna hit
(14:50):
you, you but remember it's timeto make an aspiration.
Uhhuh.
Thank you.
We'll do it Uhhuh.
it fits, but it's also stillchallenging, which is very
difficult to find right now.
I think, when I talk to people.
It's like, oh,I'm Catholic because this
is the way I grew up,or blah, blah, blah.
But then you sayto them, so like, why?
(15:12):
And we can't answerthat question.
You, on the other hand, can,because it continues to grow
with you The one thing, andit's interesting you
mentioned that, because Ithink it's really true.
Today, more so than in, thanwhen I came up, you
are what you are by choice.
If you're Catholic, you'reCatholic by choice.
In the old days, itdidn't happen that way.
I mean, I grew up, they're justCatholics all over the place.
(15:32):
Every time you turned around,there were Catholics.
the city of Lockport has 25Thousand people.
We had five activechurches in my own parish,
which is now up for closing.
we had three Catholic schools,all taught by women in
black dresses with men'snames, Um, but that was,
it was just all part ofthe thing so
I never thought of thepossibility of anything else
(15:53):
That's not the truth today.
The choices outthere are so strong, if you are
a Catholic in morethan name only,
it's by choice and to make achoice to be part of something
that limps a lot morethan you would want it to limp
that's a real faith.
I give The people who,again, like the people last
(16:13):
night who were in the OCIAprogram,
who are, saying, we would liketo be Catholic I give them
a tremendous amount of credit.
It's not the thing to do.
we've got, messes in the church,that are not attractive.
So as I say, You are what youare by choice.
and not simplybecause that's happened.
And that's a verydifferent way it was in the
(16:33):
past,I think most people who came
into the church in the pastknew somebody and there
is some truth in that.
But what I'm finding intalking to a lot of the newer
people is they are well read.
They have done alot of research.
they know a lot about thechurch instead of just
like, Oh, my girlfriend'sin the church so I need
to join for this reason.
Or.
(16:53):
To get married, thosekinds of things.
But these peopleare well educated
that are coming into the church.
And breath of fresh air.
and I think it callsus who have been in the
church on the carpet,because a lot of times
we grow up doing thesethings out of habit but
they know the reasonsbehind it and they're not
afraid to say it.
And so when you say peopleare out of choice, yeah.
And they know what they'retalking about.
(17:14):
I think the point, choice is thebig thing.
and that is, it'svery clear to me,
and it's very clearin another areas also.
what would have been,expected, common,
has all fallen apart.
I'll Use another example of it,and I have to be careful but,
people who stay in marriageare staying there because
of choice.
in the old days there wasn't achoice.
(17:36):
and so, marriage that could havesplit, wouldn't split because
the, reaction on the partof people would have been
bad, or in many instancesthe woman simply couldn't
survive it.
now they can.
and when you stopmaking choices, you become dead
inside, and again, andyou make choices up
into your, I mean, I'm in my80s, and into that, yeah.
(17:58):
is there anything elseyou'd like to share with us?
Oh my gosh, pray.
and I, and, that might sound,typical
to say, but I would say it.
Pope Francis has said this overand over again.
uh, rediscover at leastyour symbolic knees.
I can't get downand kneel anymore.
I've fallen twice, Tried to doit.
And It's veryembarrassing to have an
altar server try to pull you upwhen you've fallen over.
(18:19):
but symbolically, we need topray.
and I would say that, Idon't care how you pray,
and I'll give it one otherthing.
Go on the assumption that, youcould be wrong.
when I was in Toronto, Iused to, on Sundays, I used
to go to a place called AllenGardens.
Which was a beautiful, botanicalthing.
But it was also agathering of every
group of people you couldpossibly imagine.
young couples, with ababy would be going
(18:39):
through with the stroller.
Older people would be there.
some ofthe derelicts would be there.
And, they had, a placewhere street preachers could
preach.
They got, half hour to preachand it was scheduled
I was there one Sundayand this gentleman
was giving a sermon onthe length of Satan's chain.
(19:00):
and he went on and onand I kept saying
to myself, Waylan shut up.
Do not say anything.
Do not say anything.
And of course I don'tlisten to myself.
So at the end he said, Do anyof you have any questions?
And I said, Get you And I said,Is it possible you
could be wrong?
he exploded And He explodedat me.
He said, butYou could be the devil! I said,
(19:22):
Still, same question, Is itpossible you could be wrong?
I think that's an importantquestion to, to hold.
If I can say it'spossible I could be
wrong, then we cancontinue to have a conversation,
If I'm convinced thatI have the answer long
before the question hasbeen finally formulated,
there's no conversation thatcan go on between us.
So, just start out withthe assumption, it's possible.
(19:43):
You could be wrong,it's possible.
I know that I could be wrong.
I cannot thank you.
You've shared a lot ofwisdom with us today and
we appreciate you coming in andsharing with us.
I appreciate invitation,I'm flattered, you you know.
Well, we're grateful to all ourlisteners and all those
who view the podcast.
I think that, you areexactly what we talk about
(20:06):
on this podcast, authentic,unfiltered conversations.
And I think the churchneeds to have a few more of
them.
Once again, we thank youfor joining us today.
We hope that wherever youfind an open seat in your
life, you will invitesomeone to join you.
Salesian spirituality fitsfor me.
It fits not becauseit, it lets me off, It
challenges me enough totry and be a better person every
day.
It challenges me enough totry to be aware of the
presence of God every day,but it does it in a nice way.
Welcome to Open Seat, thepodcast where we create
a space for authenticconversations about faith,
(00:22):
unfiltered and unapologetic.
Here, we believe thatevery story matters.
Whether you're questioning,seeking, or steadfast in
your beliefs, you'll findsomething relatable in
these heartfelt discussions.
So grab your seat, getcomfortable, and let's
dive into today's storyhere at Open Seat.
(00:47):
Today in the open seat, wehave Father Dave Whalen,
OSFS, joining us Thankyou, sir, for joining us.
It's my pleasure.
we have had minimalinteractions with you
here at the parish.
You've comeand helped teach some classes.
You've comein and done some confessions.
Why don't you tell us alittle bit about who you are?
as you said, my nameis Father David Whalen.
I was born at a very young age.
(01:09):
That's supposed to get a laugh.
I'm glad to hear thatyou were born at a young
age, you know?
a place called Lockport, NewYork, Lockport, New York.
Niagara Falls, andBuffalo form a bit of a
triangle.
And, so I was born inLockport, entered the
community from Lockport.
I have been all over the place.
I started out, as we all did inthose days, I started out in
Childs, Maryland.
Washington, D. C.
interesting thing, I wasin Washington the day that
(01:32):
President Kennedywas assassinated.
and I remember that asif it were yesterday,
unfortunately.
graduatedfrom Niagara University.
Did student teachingin Philadelphia.
Went back to Washingtonfor theology.
after theology, I went toSt. Francis for three years.
Then I was principal inSalt Lake City for 7 years
Then I was in Toronto for 20years as a, quote,
(01:54):
scholastic master.
But I also,I got my doctorate there and I
was working in the universitythere Came back to
Toledo for, 8 years asprovincial.
Then 10 years as pastor.
And now I amwhat they call senior status
Senior status means theytrust you to blow the
candles out, but not to lightthem.
Well Senior statusalso just means
you're repurposed,because, you're not retired.
(02:17):
No, I do not like theword I mean, I have
as full a schedule as Ican handle.
Right now, I teach Latin toour 7th and 8th grade.
Mondays and Thursdays, I'm atRosary Care Center on
Sundays, Tuesdays, andWednesdays.
I'm at the VisitationMonastery the first
full week of the month.
and then I'm at St. Francis inour campus ministry office
on Wednesday afternoons,so that's as full
(02:39):
as I can do right now.
It's not as full as I would liketo do, you know,
but I am beginning to realizethat, the word no is slowly
coming into my vocabulary.
It's not in my mind, but, I'mrealizing that there are
times when you have to say no.
The spirit is willing.
The body is weak.
Exactly.
what was your favoriteministry that you've done?
difficult one to answer becauseI can, answer it in the reverse
(03:01):
order, that I've neverdone anything that I, didn't
like doing.
I was, surprised withsome of it.
when I was in Salt LakeCity, for example,
and Fr. Paul Grail,called And said,
we want you to go toToronto And I said, why?
And he said, wewould like you to be
involved in formation.
That was a, thatwas scary thing.
I was going from a diocesewhere there were 30
priests in the dioceseof Salt Lake City.
(03:24):
I knew every one of them.
I was president ofthe priest council.
I was the representativefrom the diocese to
the broader thing.
And I was goinginto another country Yeah.
That, the city was biggerthan the state, so that
was scary when I firstgot there.
And my first yearthere was, was rough,
trying to adjust to it.
When I left there,the tears flowed down my
face, so I've lovedeverything I've done.
(03:44):
I have never been involvedin a ministry that I did not
fall in love with.
And to say which one would,was higher or lower, I would
be not telling the truth.
It's probably like picking yourfavorite child, right?
That's an easy one CauseI don't have any.
Well, a chance to do?
Again, I can't think of it.
I have been involvedin education most of my life.
(04:07):
I started out as most of ourguys did, by teaching at the
high school level.
Then I became a highschool principal.
When I went to, Canada,I was chaplain for
the first two years ata Christian Brothers
school, and then they offeredme the job in the Faculty of
Theology at St. Michael's.
And the policy was, at thattime, that you had to have at
least what they call a dualmaster's degree.
And I had threemaster's degrees.
(04:28):
But what I discovered isthey really wanted a D
somewhere in there, D min.
I started the doctoral thing.
I love working with ideas.
I loved working with the adults.
I loved working with peoplewho were involved in ministry.
it was kind of theapex of the time in Toronto,
so I really truly did love that.
When I came back, Ididn't expect to be
provincial, and I,made no provision for
it, so when we cameback per chapter and I got
(04:49):
elected, I thought, nowwhat do I do?
?So I had to goback and resign and
then moved to Toledo.
That was adifficult thing to start, And
there were parts of it I didnot like.
But, what I did likeis getting to know our
men, in a type of respectfulintimacy, is the only way I
could describe it.
So, part of the roleof the provincial is
that you meet with everybodyonce a year, and you
(05:09):
try to engage in aconversation that's beneficial
both for you and forthe other person, and
as a result of it, youjust grow.
There's just no way that youcan do that and not come away
and say, Wow, we got some prettygood guys in the office, so.
I think of anything that Ididn't like.
I'll take that back.
I had to do a lot of legal workat one point
(05:30):
in time when I was provincial.
I know very littleabout canon law.
I know a great deal about canonlaw now.
but having to sitdown and, put all that together.
That was a little bit tough.
everybody went home and Iwould stay in the office
until 10 o'clock at nightand try to figure out how to go
there to there.
That was notparticularly exciting.
But other than that,I've enjoyed
everything I'm doing.
And even now,Strange as it may be,
going from high schoolto graduate school to 7th
(05:51):
and 8th grade, I have nodifficulty that.
one of the thingsthat you alluded to
that I find absolutelyfascinating about
religious life isyou're just a somebody in
the fold of all the brothersand then you get
elected provincialAnd now you're in charge
of everybody.
And then you goback into the fold
of somebody, How does themindset happen like that
(06:11):
where you're just like emergego back, because usually
when someone becomes a Dignifiedperson we put them in a higher
status class wiseThat's just not
part of religious life.
I was on our generalcouncil for, six years
or something like that.
That was a uniqueexperience, because, I was
working with our FatherGeneral and the other
counselors, and I got to seeOblates around the world, and
(06:32):
I grew from it, there'sno question about it.
And then the term wasover, and it's over, that's it.
so I said, I did not plan to beelected provincial,
because I made no provisionwhen I left Toronto to
come to chapter.
And as we started to gothrough, I thought,
Something may be happening here.
Don't vote for me.
Don't vote well, no,I wouldn't say that
because then that'sselfishness, But, when I became
(06:54):
provincial, I gaveit everything I possibly could.
and all of thesethings in religious life
are timed, And when that is overwith, it's over.
And the bigger thing isthat you're a part of the
community, and whether youare the provincial here, or
you're washing dishes here,or you're driving a car here,
or you're teachinga Latin class there, they
are all part of this one circle,I don't know if that makes
(07:18):
any sense to you.
It is different.
For example, with,say with, a bishop,
the bishop is, ordained abishop and is going to be a
bishop forever,officially he has to
submit his resignation to theHoly Father at 75,
but apparently theHoly Father has been
letting some of themstay on for a few
more years after that.
Same thing is at the parish.
you have to submit yourresignation to the
Toledo diocese at 75I got to 78 before
(07:39):
they caught me, so.
I know you've taught some RCIAclasses.
in the church, I thinkwe're in a, a, more
fruitful time than other timesin the past.
statistically we're looking at alittle bit of growth.
So what advice would yougive to somebody who's just
starting their faith?
there's severalthings that come to mind.
One is be honest,You cannot form any kind of a
relationship unless there'shonesty.
(08:01):
I used to do this with,marriage counseling,
I would say if you lienow, because you think
you're going to pleasesomebody, it's going
to come back and haunt youand so you're at a point now
where you can be ruthlessly,honest.
And I would say the same thing.
If you are going to walkinto the faith
then first of all,just be honest.
And that honesty can be stronglyin favor of something, it can be
strongly against something,but at least you know
(08:22):
where you're, coming from.
That's number one.
Number two is,remember it's a journey.
my faith journey will be overabout 15 minutes after I'm
dead, and to think that Ican end it all, or I can
put it all togethernice and neatly at
this point in time.
It just isn't true, So those arethe two things that would strike
me.
It's been interesting overthe years to walk with people
who are going on thiswhole faith journey thing.
(08:44):
Because people come fromdifferent backgrounds,
different experiences,some people
are reluctant to take anotherstep because they're afraid.
Some people feel theygot the Holy Ghost in them
and they're going right topoint, you know.
Uh huh.
And that's all part of it.
I suspect that each onehas a somewhat of a unique
story.
I think, of ourCatholic faith is it has room
for a lot of different stories.
(09:05):
it's not a question ofthis is what you have to be,
pointblank, No, there's room for a
lot of different stories.
And the beauty of it is, allthose stories meld together.
That makes me think ofsomething.
I am dual citizenof the United States and Canada.
very proud of it, by the way.
Is that due to your 30 years inToronto?
Yeah, see, I didn'tthink I was coming back.
And Canada has nodifficulty with dual
citizenship.
And I reached a certain pointwhere I thought,
(09:27):
I don't want to give upmy American citizenship, but
I know more aboutwhat's going on here, and
I want to have a voicehere, so I took out
dual citizenship.
the United Statesbuilt it's, ethos
around the melting pot thing.
So whatever you were,you came in and it all
went in and you got,Canada built it on the quilt.
and so all these other variousethnic backgrounds are just
(09:48):
part of a beautiful quilt.
that is Canada.
And I think of the church inthat way, that
the church has roomfor, a whole variety of people,
variety of experiences, awhole different, set of, of,
expectations.
But in this beautifulquilt called the Catholic
Church, that's a great vision.
It also ties into St. Francis deSales who talked about,
(10:11):
university.
Yeah.
I don't, I can't saythe word, but anyway.
The basic notionis you can be united
and you can haveindividuality going on at the
same time.
time and that'snot always the case and
that's what I love about thestories as you were talking
about, everybody comes fromdifferent
backgrounds and insteadof creating One melting pot,
(10:33):
one section of us.
we allow everyone to be theirindividual, devotions or
their whatever, and thenwe work to form a beautiful
tapestry.
what about Salesian Spiritualityattracts you.
Everything.
it really does.
but it's taken a long timefor that happen.
I went to a high schoolwhere our men taught.
(10:53):
And so bits And pieces ofit were part of it.
When I entered the community,I entered the community, a long
time ago.
interesting bit of trivia.
There were 40 of us who madeour first profession of vows 62
years ago.
I'm the only Really?
They're all up theresomewhere, but I'm the only
one left of that group.
So over the years,bits and pieces of it
(11:16):
you pick up,so it would be difficult for
me to identify one particularpart of it.
and at a certainpoint in time, it
becomes so much a part of youthat I can't think of
it being anything else.
I am Irish Catholicon both sides, my
mother's familywere from County Kerry.
she was actually born in theUnited States, but her sister
was born in Ireland.
My grandmother wasborn in, Ireland.
(11:36):
My father's family was fromCork.
I don't know any other wayof being, than to be Irish
Catholic, which means we pray alot, we swear a lot, We drink
a lot, we fight a lot.
we make up a lot, and we go tomass, and then
we say what we thinkabout the priest, and then we
go to mass again.
Then we go to confession.
It's part the Irishit would be the
same thing with thewhole Salesian thing, I
don't know of another way ofliving, than the way I'm
(11:57):
living right now.
And it fits me, I have, inmy later life, developed a real
appreciation for the founder ofour community, Father Brisson.
I'm reading him every day, mostevery day, today probably won't
be because I won't get back intime.
But I just watch this mandevelop, and I think, I
know exactly what you're goinggoing through.
What was the bestpiece of advice you
received in your life?
(12:18):
Fr. Tom McNamara, God rest hissoul, said to me Be good to
me, them good to themthe way going up
because you'll meetthem on the way coming down.
and again, thatfits into our whole thing.
if you're notcareful, you can get a certain.
Headiness, When you're ina position.
When you're the principalof the school, for example, and
you can say, No, this isgoing to go there, and
that's going to get, You canget this little headiness
headiness, and so yeah, you maytoday, be able to say,
(12:41):
Stand up, sit down,fight, fight, fight.
Tomorrow, somebody'sgoing to say to you, stand up,
down, fight, fight, fight,What's your favorite part
of religious life?
Because there's a lot of aspectsto it, right?
a challenging part?
Oh, the challenging part isto be what I, profess to
to be Salesian spiritualityas it's come down to us
in the Oblate thingis a strongly interior
that's challenging, Theessence of Salesian
(13:02):
spirituality is togo no more than 15 minutes an
hour, without anactive awareness of the presence
of God.
And so, that's why,it's in our, what
we call our rule.
That there's aspirations thatare made every 15 minutes.
So that I don't go morethan 15 minutes without
being actively awareof the presence of God.
That's tough.
Do you have littlethings that remind you?
(13:23):
I know some of the youngerOblates I know have set alarms
back at St. Pius we have a,clock that, know.
Chimes off the thing.
After doing this for some 60some years, I'm
somewhat conscious of it.
But that's a great challengeThe challenge is to
be as actively awareof the presence of God as I can
(13:43):
be in the course of the day.
That's a good thought for allof us.
us the simple essenceof Salesian spirituality is
don't forget who you are.
No matter what happens, don'tforget who you are.
You are literally made in theimage and likeness of God.
If God wants to know whathe looks like, he looks at You
if he'sgoing to look at me, I got
to keep that mirror a littlecleaner than
I would like to at times, youknow.
and that's what I'm tryingto do with spirituality.
(14:05):
So, is there afavorite thing you
have about Salesianspirituality?
Because we talked about thechallenge now.
Is there a favorite part of it?
it fits.
I know that's a strange thing tosay, but it fits me.
Now, would somethingelse fit me?
Would it fit me to beBenedictine?
Would it fit me to a Diocesan?
I don't know, becauseI haven't been there.
But this fits,It's like the comfortable shoes,
(14:27):
you know, you say,well, maybe I should
get a new pair of shoes,but I like these, they fit.
Salesian spirituality fitsfor me.
It fits not becauseit, it lets me off, It
challenges me enough totry and be a better person every
day.
It challenges me enough totry to be aware of the
presence of God every day,but it does it in a nice way.
It says, David, I know,you're old, so I'm not gonna hit
(14:50):
you, you but remember it's timeto make an aspiration.
Uhhuh.
Thank you.
We'll do it Uhhuh.
it fits, but it's also stillchallenging, which is very
difficult to find right now.
I think, when I talk to people.
It's like, oh,I'm Catholic because this
is the way I grew up,or blah, blah, blah.
But then you sayto them, so like, why?
(15:12):
And we can't answerthat question.
You, on the other hand, can,because it continues to grow
with you The one thing, andit's interesting you
mentioned that, because Ithink it's really true.
Today, more so than in, thanwhen I came up, you
are what you are by choice.
If you're Catholic, you'reCatholic by choice.
In the old days, itdidn't happen that way.
I mean, I grew up, they're justCatholics all over the place.
(15:32):
Every time you turned around,there were Catholics.
the city of Lockport has 25Thousand people.
We had five activechurches in my own parish,
which is now up for closing.
we had three Catholic schools,all taught by women in
black dresses with men'snames, Um, but that was,
it was just all part ofthe thing so
I never thought of thepossibility of anything else
(15:53):
That's not the truth today.
The choices outthere are so strong, if you are
a Catholic in morethan name only,
it's by choice and to make achoice to be part of something
that limps a lot morethan you would want it to limp
that's a real faith.
I give The people who,again, like the people last
(16:13):
night who were in the OCIAprogram,
who are, saying, we would liketo be Catholic I give them
a tremendous amount of credit.
It's not the thing to do.
we've got, messes in the church,that are not attractive.
So as I say, You are what youare by choice.
and not simplybecause that's happened.
And that's a verydifferent way it was in the
(16:33):
past,I think most people who came
into the church in the pastknew somebody and there
is some truth in that.
But what I'm finding intalking to a lot of the newer
people is they are well read.
They have done alot of research.
they know a lot about thechurch instead of just
like, Oh, my girlfriend'sin the church so I need
to join for this reason.
Or.
(16:53):
To get married, thosekinds of things.
But these peopleare well educated
that are coming into the church.
And breath of fresh air.
and I think it callsus who have been in the
church on the carpet,because a lot of times
we grow up doing thesethings out of habit but
they know the reasonsbehind it and they're not
afraid to say it.
And so when you say peopleare out of choice, yeah.
And they know what they'retalking about.
(17:14):
I think the point, choice is thebig thing.
and that is, it'svery clear to me,
and it's very clearin another areas also.
what would have been,expected, common,
has all fallen apart.
I'll Use another example of it,and I have to be careful but,
people who stay in marriageare staying there because
of choice.
in the old days there wasn't achoice.
(17:36):
and so, marriage that could havesplit, wouldn't split because
the, reaction on the partof people would have been
bad, or in many instancesthe woman simply couldn't
survive it.
now they can.
and when you stopmaking choices, you become dead
inside, and again, andyou make choices up
into your, I mean, I'm in my80s, and into that, yeah.
(17:58):
is there anything elseyou'd like to share with us?
Oh my gosh, pray.
and I, and, that might sound,typical
to say, but I would say it.
Pope Francis has said this overand over again.
uh, rediscover at leastyour symbolic knees.
I can't get downand kneel anymore.
I've fallen twice, Tried to doit.
And It's veryembarrassing to have an
altar server try to pull you upwhen you've fallen over.
(18:19):
but symbolically, we need topray.
and I would say that, Idon't care how you pray,
and I'll give it one otherthing.
Go on the assumption that, youcould be wrong.
when I was in Toronto, Iused to, on Sundays, I used
to go to a place called AllenGardens.
Which was a beautiful, botanicalthing.
But it was also agathering of every
group of people you couldpossibly imagine.
young couples, with ababy would be going
(18:39):
through with the stroller.
Older people would be there.
some ofthe derelicts would be there.
And, they had, a placewhere street preachers could
preach.
They got, half hour to preachand it was scheduled
I was there one Sundayand this gentleman
was giving a sermon onthe length of Satan's chain.
(19:00):
and he went on and onand I kept saying
to myself, Waylan shut up.
Do not say anything.
Do not say anything.
And of course I don'tlisten to myself.
So at the end he said, Do anyof you have any questions?
And I said, Get you And I said,Is it possible you
could be wrong?
he exploded And He explodedat me.
He said, butYou could be the devil! I said,
(19:22):
Still, same question, Is itpossible you could be wrong?
I think that's an importantquestion to, to hold.
If I can say it'spossible I could be
wrong, then we cancontinue to have a conversation,
If I'm convinced thatI have the answer long
before the question hasbeen finally formulated,
there's no conversation thatcan go on between us.
So, just start out withthe assumption, it's possible.
(19:43):
You could be wrong,it's possible.
I know that I could be wrong.
I cannot thank you.
You've shared a lot ofwisdom with us today and
we appreciate you coming in andsharing with us.
I appreciate invitation,I'm flattered, you you know.
Well, we're grateful to all ourlisteners and all those
who view the podcast.
I think that, you areexactly what we talk about
(20:06):
on this podcast, authentic,unfiltered conversations.
And I think the churchneeds to have a few more of
them.
Once again, we thank youfor joining us today.
We hope that wherever youfind an open seat in your
life, you will invitesomeone to join you.
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