April 8, 2025 • 53 mins
In this storytelling conversation, I got to hear all about Jenn's journey with toxic relationships- which she shared so openly and candidly to normalize that this is such a hard cycle to get out of. (And she gets to be married to the love of her life now!)
Jenn Hartt is a creative strategist, world traveler, and storyteller with a passion for connecting people through authentic stories. As the founder of Jenn’s Way, she helps entrepreneurs turn big ideas into reality. A bit witchy and deeply reflective, Jenn believes in the magic of the world around us and strives to create a safe space where everyone feels they belong. Jenn is also a yoga teacher, an avid reader, a tattoo lover, and the host of the podcast Your Next Business Bestie, which launched in 2024 to amplify the voices of entrepreneurs and foster meaningful connections.
We talk about the journey of healing, and the importance of self-love and communication. Jenn shares her personal experiences with toxic relationships, the patterns she recognized, and the transformative power of yoga and mindfulness in her healing process. We discuss the significance of finding peace, the role of community, and the lessons learned from past relationships. The conversation emphasizes that healing is a continuous journey and that embracing change can lead to healthier, more fulfilling relationships.
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Connect with Jenn: https://www.instagram.com/lifejennsway/
https://www.jennswayva.com/home
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Connect with Cilia: https://selfexpressedbabe.com/
https://www.instagram.com/selfexpressedbabe/
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If you enjoyed this episode, please rate and review us on Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/openly-spoken/id1589276227
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Jenn Hartt is a creative strategist, world traveler,
(00:02):
and storyteller with a passion for connecting people
through authentic stories.
As the founder of Jenn's Way,
she helps entrepreneurs turn big ideas into reality.
A bit witchy and deeply reflective,
Jenn believes in the magic of the world around us
and strives to create a safe space
where everyone feels like they belong.
With a BA in English from the University of Maine
(00:25):
and an MBA in corporate social responsibility from SNHU,
Jenn has spent her career blending creativity,
strategy, and purpose.
She's lived all over the country,
including Maine and Colorado,
and her adventures have taken her to 48 states,
13 countries, including Russia
for her first international trip,
and Paris for a semester abroad.
(00:47):
Jenn is also a yoga teacher, an avid reader,
a host of the podcast, Your Next Business Bestie.
She's married to the love of her life,
and I am very excited to bring her on to the show.
We're going to be talking about how hard it is
to get out of that cycle of toxic relationships,
(01:07):
and we're basically gonna hear Jenn's authentic sharing
and her authentic story.
["The Next Business Bestie"]
["The Next Business Bestie"]
Welcome to Openly Spoken,
(01:28):
the podcast to help you show up, speak out,
and be seen in healthy relationships.
On this show, we talk about self-love, sexuality,
relationship tips,
including ending the cycle of toxic relationships,
and healing and thriving after heartbreak.
Hi, I'm your host Cilia, and I'm a certified sex love
(01:49):
and relationship coach, helping ambitious women
with a history of toxic relationships
feel deeply connected in healthy love.
These are such important topics that every woman deserves,
so if you could leave this show a rating and a review
on Apple podcasts or Spotify to help more women find this,
it would mean the absolute world to me.
Thank you so much for being here today.
(02:11):
Now let's dive into the show.
["The Next Business Bestie"]
Thank you, Jenn, for joining me.
Yeah, thank you for having me.
(02:32):
I'm really excited.
Yes, I'm excited too,
especially since we're gonna be talking about
ending that cycle of toxic relationships
and how hard that cycle is to break.
Yeah, it's such a topic that's near and dear to my heart.
Yeah, I feel like it was the definition of my life
for a while, and it's amazing once you break that cycle,
(02:54):
it's all these things, you know, people saying,
you deserve better, or you shouldn't be treated that way,
but until you break out of it on your own
and see what a difference a healthy relationship,
and maybe that's just a healthy relationship with yourself,
it doesn't necessarily mean a new romantic partner,
but it's literally like a veil opening over your info.
(03:14):
Yes, you start to experience things that make you go,
wait, what?
This is a thing?
People like this exist, or moments like this exist,
or this is possible?
Like, it's like we don't even know to want certain things
because we don't even realize that thing was even possible.
(03:34):
Yeah, or even like day to day is something I really,
I have to pause once in a while, like my husband now,
he'll be cooking dinner or cleaning or whatever,
but I've had a long day or not feeling great,
and I still struggle with sitting on the couch
and relaxing while he's doing something, quote unquote,
(03:54):
what we see as productive, though both are productive.
I struggle with just, and he'll have to tell me like,
no, just go sit, and it still takes me a second,
like that's okay, like we don't both need to be doing
all that, like we sat on our couch and read
for like five hours yesterday, and it was amazing.
Yeah.
That sounds nice.
(04:15):
Yeah, it was lovely.
Do the cats cuddle when you guys are reading?
Hagrid does, especially, he's right here next to me.
Hagrid, oh, I love that name.
Yeah, he's gotten very cuddly in the last few months.
My sole cat, I think I've told you, passed away in 2023,
and the biggest thing I missed was having a cat
that would cuddle, like not all cats,
(04:36):
Phoebe's right here next to me,
she'll hang out, but she's not gonna cuddle,
and Hagrid has finally stepped up,
and he's the cuddler now, he's a cuddler.
Oh, I have a cat meowing outside of my door,
and he's a huge cuddler.
He's like, let me in, I wanna be part of it too.
Yeah, maybe he can sit, if he can sit on my lap nicely,
(05:00):
we'll see, hold on, I'm gonna bring him in.
This is Paxton.
Oh, hi sweet baby.
We have an almost two-year-old too,
I think she's sleeping on my bed right now though.
Oh, yeah, so maybe if I keep him in my lap,
he'll be content here.
Okay.
He never does.
(05:21):
I know.
So I would love to hear just your journey
with this toxic relationships,
what was it like for you,
and then when was that shift of recognizing,
oh, I keep getting into this pattern
of toxic relationships, and then from there,
(05:43):
what practices or work did you do?
I wanna know all of it.
Yeah, I think I can confidently say
that every relationship up until the one I'm currently in
would be considered toxic.
I don't really know how it all started,
but we all create these patterns without intending to.
My high school sweetheart was a drug addict
(06:05):
who ended up picking drugs over our relationship,
that was his way,
because I almost said if he went back to drugs
that we were over.
And it's interesting because I moved to Maine,
I grew up in Texas and I moved to Maine in that time,
and I'm thankful that I had this big move happening
because I bet I would have stayed with him otherwise.
(06:26):
I bet I would just would have,
tried to fix things.
I've always been a fixer.
I've always seen the best in people,
even when they absolutely refuse to see it in themselves,
and I have a hard time remembering
that if they don't wanna do the work,
I can't do it for them.
And all relationships, friendships,
romantic relationships, family, all of it.
(06:49):
And in college, I had a couple of relationships,
one was just a two month, very over the top,
madly in love, 18 years old, that kind of thing.
And then I was in an abusive relationship after that,
that calendar wise didn't last all that long,
but it had the biggest impact on me for a very long time.
(07:10):
And it took a long time for me to actually admit
that it was abusive and to put that fatal on it.
I even years later tried to tell myself it wasn't that bad,
but in things like he would send me to the basement
to do my homework,
because he didn't wanna see me doing my homework,
I was a senior in college at this point.
Or he'd tell me that he could tell
(07:31):
if I'd gone to the gym that day,
because I was skinnier if I'd gone to the gym that day.
Yeah, very twisted, very abusive.
Yeah, I actually was just in Maine last week,
and we drove through where I lived with him.
And it was a little triggering of some of the things
that maybe I suppress a little bit in my day to day,
but we lived across the street
from a mental health institution,
(07:52):
and he used to threaten to have me sent there.
Just horribly toxic.
And like I said, I kind of told myself it wasn't that bad,
and that maybe I was 21 and a little dramatic.
And then years later, his now ex-wife reached out to me,
and the same thing had happened to her.
And it was a unique blessing.
I believe that the authentic sharing of stories
(08:12):
has the power to save lives.
And even if I was just an outlet for her for just a glimpse,
I was thankful that I could be someone
that she could talk to.
And it also solidified my own story, I guess, in a way.
And from there, I...
You feel validated when you know that it wasn't just you.
Exactly.
(08:33):
And that you weren't being 21 and dramatic, like you said.
Right, yeah, I felt horrible for her.
But at the same time, it's like this polar opposites
of validated, but also realized I had some more work to do,
to heal from what, and it had been almost 10 years
at that point.
But I am thankful that I could be there for her in a unique way
that no one else could.
(08:54):
When I was in a relationship in my mid-20s,
that I was raising his son, we got engaged.
I gave up everything for this man.
And I really think it all comes down
to the seeing the best in people and losing myself in wanting
to help them be better.
(09:16):
And that's kind of the common thread through all
of my relationships up until now.
And that act is called off.
Sorry to interrupt.
No, no, no, go ahead.
Would that include that piece of seeing the best in people
and wanting to help them be better?
Would that include things like ignoring red flags?
(09:36):
Absolutely.
Or justifying red flags?
I can still relate, by the way.
Yeah.
Justifying red flags, yeah.
Yeah, like one of those, oh, there's
no wonder he or she is like this because they went through this.
Yeah.
Now that you say that, that's a really pivotal moment
is my most recent act.
(09:58):
Something that came to me when I was doing yoga and meditating
was we can either sit in our shit or we can grow in it.
And I was choosing to grow from it.
And I realized that ex was just going to sit in it.
And he was using everything he'd been through as an excuse
to be a toxic human, to be a little bit of a narcissist.
And I was done with it.
(10:20):
And that doesn't mean I still see the best in people.
I still want to help people achieve whatever level they
want to achieve, but let them be the guiding force instead
of me being the one to push it and stay in spaces
that I shouldn't be in.
Yes.
Yeah.
That's a big difference.
Right?
Them guiding it instead of me.
(10:40):
So my late 20s, I was engaged.
Like I said, I was raising his son.
I gave up my everything for this man.
We started a business together, a construction business.
And it plummeted me into almost $80,000 in credit card debt,
which I'm still digging out of.
(11:00):
I have $15,000 left to pay off.
It's been six years.
But basically, one day, he thought
we were driving in his truck.
And he said he didn't want to get married.
And then it was a very toxic cycle for about six months.
We were together.
We worked together.
He wanted to elope.
He didn't want to elope.
And that's when I slipped into my darkest depression.
(11:23):
That's when I developed anxiety, which
I would do anything to not have the anxiety
that I've created in my life.
That's how I ended up in Colorado, too.
And I'm very much like a silver lining,
seeing the best in situations, even if it sucks
while you're in it.
And the best thing that could have happened to me
(11:44):
was ending up in Colorado, which is where I am now,
because I changed my whole life moving here.
That's when I started my business, because we broke up
and I didn't know what else to do.
So I started off as a virtual assistant.
I'm now a creative strategist helping small business owners
make their big ideas a reality.
But I still ended up in a toxic relationship
(12:04):
while I moved here for the first four years.
And he wasn't a bad person.
He's the one, though, that I've been through a lot
and decided just to use it as an excuse.
And I, in my soul, knew that he wanted to love who I was,
but he really loved who he thought I should be.
And I was never going to be who he thought I should be.
(12:27):
And it's things like my business is important to me.
If any of your listeners follow astrology,
I have a lot of Capricorn in my chart.
I'm very driven.
I'm goal-oriented.
And if I told him I had a new client,
it was, so you're going to have less time for me.
It was about everything was twisted to be about him.
And I knew better.
(12:49):
That was the hardest thing is, at this point, I'm 30 years old.
And I knew better.
And my friends knew I knew better.
And everyone just kind of wondered
why I was continuing to put up with it.
And I remember people used to ask me,
how are you and him doing?
And I would say, you know, it's fine.
It's whatever.
It's on autopilot.
Everything else in my life is great.
Stuff with him is fine.
And fine wasn't enough, finally.
(13:12):
And my husband and my story is crazy.
We get a lot of shocked looks.
So January of 2023, so two years ago, he and I reconnected.
He was supposed to be the best man in my first wedding.
He grew up with my fiance.
And when I just say that, pirate people think,
(13:32):
he's fully at the altar.
But it was five years later.
So we reconnected.
And I just remember thinking, this man who barely knew me
was so excited to hear about every dream I had,
everything I wanted for my business.
I was hosting my first women's retreat.
He's blue collar.
(13:53):
So I bring up tarot cards and oracle cards.
And my ex would have just ignored it.
But I remember RJ asked me to pull cards for him.
And it was like this moment of, oh, somebody can actually
want to be interested in what I'm, just because I'm
interested in it, he wants to hear about it.
And that was a big struggle with my ex, too,
(14:14):
is he'd never asked about anything going on in my life.
And he'd always say, that doesn't mean I don't care.
And that doesn't work for me.
I'm an acknowledge seeker, a question asker.
It's not hard to show interest in what's going
on in other people's lives.
But my husband really just showed me
that it was OK to be me.
(14:35):
I mean, I never planned on dating him.
I actually thought that it was that he and my ex
were setting me up and making a joke of me by him reaching out.
Like, I did not.
We were just talking about this last night, actually.
I did not believe him at all.
But long story short, we started dating February of 23,
very shortly after I broke up with my ex.
We got engaged in May.
(14:56):
And we had our wedding that October.
And he moved from Maine to here that May as well
with our daughter, who I'm in the process of adopting.
But I just kind of decided that enough was enough.
And I feel like the universe showed me, OK,
we've sent you enough signs that my ex wasn't for me.
Here is this man who sees you and appreciates you.
(15:18):
And I remember looking at Pike's Peak one day
and thinking, I didn't move to Colorado to settle for less.
And that's what I was doing in my relationship.
I am celebrating you that you are in a relationship where
someone is showing that interest and sees you for who you are.
And I'm curious if that was triggering at first
(15:41):
and what you did about that.
Because that's very common.
Yeah.
Yeah, I think I still have moments
that I don't believe that even the sitting on the couch,
I think there's a subconscious level that thinks that later
on, we're going to get in a fight because I
chose to sit on the couch.
Yeah.
And it's really uncomfortable when
(16:01):
you get used to being in toxic relationships
to be in one that's not anymore.
Yes, I agree.
You've become so used to toxicity
that it's become like this balancing point.
And now you're off balance, which seems so backwards.
But you're off balance because someone isn't in toxic.
Yeah, I think it's like your nervous system is
(16:22):
so used to the threats and responding to the threats
that when the threats aren't there, you're like,
I know there's something.
I know there's a lion somewhere.
Yeah, and I mean, every once in a while,
I still have like every, all but one of my exes cheated on me.
And so that's a big one for a lot of people
is having the trust that you really found somebody
(16:44):
that values you and your relationship
enough to be faithful.
And I believe in big leaps of faith.
But that doesn't mean that my subconscious doesn't
get in there sometimes.
And we're two years in now, which is still very new.
We had this moment the other night,
like we got married really fast.
But we just both knew we were all in.
It was what we wanted.
And it's worked.
(17:05):
He is my absolute best friend.
But I absolutely still have those moments
that you're waiting for the other shoe to drop.
And just expecting the fights and expecting.
I think one of the weirdest moments
was we had a disagreement about beliefs.
And at the end, he said, you know,
(17:26):
I really value what you said.
And I'm going to think about it more.
And I was like, you mean we're not going to just fight
and I don't want to apologize and shove it under the mat
for another day?
What?
So receiving apologies is very uncomfortable for me,
for sure.
Yeah.
(17:47):
Yeah, I totally.
It's so relatable.
For me with fights, I go into like, it's done.
Like he's going to leave.
For me, my biggest thing is like this abandonment wound
that I'm very aware of.
And it gets triggered in fights.
I'm like, oh crap, he's done.
(18:07):
He's going to divorce me.
Yeah.
Yeah, it's amazing, the old stuff that comes up,
no matter what.
Or like the ex from college that used to tell me I was crazy.
And my husband will tell me I'm crazy all the time,
but not in a serious way.
But I expect it sometimes.
And sometimes we are irrational human beings in moments.
(18:31):
And he doesn't hold it against me.
Communication, I mean, it's really the basics.
Communication is everything.
I know that I can tell him.
He knows all of my deepest, darkest secrets.
He knows everything about me.
And when I talk to my friends that are still sticking out
the relationship part of their lives,
(18:51):
that's the biggest thing is someone
who you know you can tell everything to,
and they're still going to be there the next day.
Yes, for sure.
Which can be so scary when you're
used to that toxic relationship cycle,
because it can be really hard to open up in the first place.
But when you do open up and it doesn't cause a blowout fight
(19:14):
and the person's like, OK, I get that.
I get why you did that.
It's so healing.
And I think that really speaks to how
in between these relationships when we are single
and we're working on our own healing, it's great
and it's wonderful and we need to do that.
However, I think the healing also
(19:35):
continues within a relationship in moments like that.
Absolutely.
And healing is a journey we're all on forever.
I had somebody on my podcast that
talked about the word healed and how even if something feels
healed, oftentimes it will creep back up in a different way,
(19:57):
in an unexpected way.
And it's just that commitment to keep moving forward
if this is the person that you want to be with.
And I, especially in the beginning,
recognizing that they're not your F. They're not.
And that can be hard.
For me, where I have a relationship I've been with
was primarily with narcissistic, toxic humans
(20:20):
to believe that it really could be different this time
and have it be that way.
But those red flags you mentioned, not ignoring them
and deciding what's a red flag and what's
just a human characteristic, what's
something that could make or break a relationship
or cause you to be back in that toxicity versus something
(20:42):
that's just a trait that's not necessarily a bad thing.
What helped you the most to stop ignoring those red flags
and to have that confidence of this isn't good enough for me?
I did a lot of journaling.
I am a yoga teacher.
And I'll just a lot of introspection
of what I wanted in the next five years.
(21:05):
I'm 35 now.
So I was 33 when this big change, when my husband and I
got together.
And I just kind of realized that enough was enough.
And all of these other parts of my life were so good.
My business was booming.
I had great friends, still have great friends.
(21:25):
I had finally found my community here
in Colorado, which was the hardest part of moving
to Colorado was losing my community in Maine.
But I finally felt like I'd found my circle of people.
The only thing I'd ever cry over,
the only thing that caused big stress was my relationship.
And I realized I was working so hard for a relationship
(21:47):
that in my gut I knew wasn't the right one.
And it was almost harder because nothing,
the ex that I was engaged to, he called off the wedding.
It was toxic in the end.
The abusive ex, it was actually when I finally
told my dad what was going on that I knew
there was no turning back.
But with the most recent ex, there was nothing,
(22:08):
there was no final nail in the coffin per se.
It was just me deciding to walk away.
And that in a lot of ways was harder
because I know I hurt him by leaving.
And like I said, he wasn't a bad person.
He just wasn't my person.
And I was done not, if I was going
to have somebody be in that role in my life,
(22:29):
then I wanted it to be somebody that I could be me
and that was going to fully show up.
Being an entrepreneur is hard.
And having a partner that supports you as an entrepreneur
makes a world of difference.
Yeah.
How has that shifted not only your business,
but the relationships you can have in your business,
(22:51):
with your clients?
I think I enjoy my business more than I did before
because I can celebrate it with this person that I love.
And my friends would celebrate my business with me before.
But I always knew when I told my ex that I got a new client
or a new project or whatever that he
was going to put a damper on it.
So then I just avoided celebrating it.
(23:12):
And now I'm allowed to be more human.
And I think being human in our businesses is everything.
And I prioritize finding clients that also appreciate me
and see me as a human being and not a business.
And that's what I tell my clients to do too.
Because the best example I have is
when my sole cat was passing away in March of 23,
(23:34):
I had a client that I'd still been meeting with.
And I asked her if we could push the meeting
because I needed to go get Jack from the emergency vet.
And she sent me back a text and it just said no.
And at first I was like, oh, she's mad.
And then a minute later she was like, Jenn,
you need to go take care of yourself.
I know how much this cat means to you.
We can reschedule any time.
And I just had this moment that I was like, she sees me.
(23:57):
She sees me as a human being.
And I think by having a romantic partner who
appreciates that my business is part of me
makes me want more clients that see that I'm a human and not
just a business.
And it helps me talk to business owners about it too,
which is something I'm learning I really love to do
is more of the coaching space.
(24:19):
So it's kind of what I've started to delve
into a little bit this year.
But we need to be able to be humans and not just businesses.
And we need to have a support system
when being an entrepreneur sucks,
because sometimes it sucks.
Sometimes it's really lonely.
But knowing that even if my husband doesn't understand
the thing that I do, which watch me working and building
(24:40):
websites or whatever and does not understand what I do at all,
but he supports it.
And if I have to work on a weekend,
it's more likely that I won't work because I want to than him
criticizing me working versus my ex.
If I pulled out my laptop after 7 o'clock,
I was always an eye roll.
It was always a big dramatic whatever.
And I do think there's a difference.
(25:01):
And my husband and I have a family too.
And he knows that my income is important to our family as well.
But even before we were living together,
he was my biggest fan as soon as we reconnected.
And as cliche as it is, when it works, it works.
When you find your person, it's just a more peaceful existence.
I totally understand the cliche too,
(25:22):
even what you described earlier about how
you said when you know you know, because you
got married quickly.
Same thing happened with my husband.
Very similar to your story actually,
because we knew each other before,
but we did start dating until way after.
Which brings up the question for me of,
(25:44):
what do you think there is to be said about when we grow
and learn from this journey of toxic relationships,
how we see the people in our lives?
It shifts.
Because my husband, I knew him when I was a teenager,
but I didn't want to be in a relationship with a guy that
respected me.
(26:05):
I wanted a mean boyfriend.
Yeah, I wanted the guy that I could fix.
I wanted, you know, and my husband
will be the first one to say that he's grown
a lot because of our relationship
and because of getting out of northern Maine, which
is where he and my daughter lives.
But it has, we kind of joke about it,
(26:25):
but ever since I left my ex and started dating my husband,
I just keep setting the spaces and people that
no longer align with who I am.
And I think by making this choice
in the most important relationship in my life,
it caused me to pause and make sure
that the other people in places that I'm spending time with
(26:47):
align with this higher version of myself.
And not everything I've left has been this big to do,
but I have found myself prioritizing
my peaf over everything.
And that's caused me to leave a lot of, you know,
I quit one of the yoga studios I worked at.
And that wasn't because of the studio, really.
It was because it took so much time out of my Thursday evening
(27:09):
to drive all the way to the studio, find child care,
that it was more stressful than peaceful.
And I think that that's kind of how I evaluate everything.
Is this more peaceful or is it causing more turmoil
in long term, not in the moment?
So I have proven to myself that I can have this very peaceful,
(27:31):
happy relationship.
So I think on a not so subconscious level,
I would just want that in all aspects of my life.
Yeah, it has such a ripple effect.
And that's so soothing that after you've
went through this journey of these tumultuous relationships
to use peace as your new barometer.
(27:54):
And I think that's a very good inquiry
to really look at all things of your life and be like,
is this bringing me peace or is this costing my peace?
Yeah.
And knowing that you deserve peace,
I think that was part of it.
I don't think I believed that I deserved,
because I've always been the go, go, go,
really active doing all the things.
(28:15):
And I still do all the things, but I
have a much more peaceful life.
And I truly don't think that I thought
I deserved it until it kind of just walked into my life.
I decided to put my life in a blender in 2023,
and the universe decided what was going to come out.
(28:37):
And here we are in 2025, and it was the best thing
that could have happened to me.
I love that for you.
It's been a wild ride, for sure.
Yeah.
And when did you start your yoga practice,
and how did that have an effect on your relationship journey?
Because for me, yoga practice was a huge pivotal practice.
(28:58):
Yeah, it's interesting.
I started yoga in 2012, but not in any sort of wellness
capacity.
I have a history of eating disorders and body dysmorphia.
And for me, I was like, oh, yoga, maybe
that will help me lose weight.
And that's why I started yoga originally,
was a way to lose weight.
And so it was not a consistent practice for me
(29:20):
for the first few years.
And it was when I moved to Colorado
that I really dove in to my yoga practice.
It's actually the studio I stopped teaching at last year,
but Cambio here in Colorado Springs, that's donation-based.
And when I first moved to Colorado, I was broke.
And I had that $80,000 worth of credit card debt
that I mentioned.
So if I was going to do yoga, it had to be cheap.
(29:42):
And Cambio's donation-based.
And so I was at the yoga studio three, four, five times a week,
getting as much practice in as I possibly could.
And I went through yoga teacher training in 2020.
And if you told me seven years ago
that I was going to be a yoga teacher,
I would have laughed you out of the room.
Because there's no way I was going
to be in front of people doing something physical.
(30:04):
Absolutely not.
But I say that my yoga mat is where
I pulled myself out of my depression
from the release trip in Maine.
And yoga was the start of my wellness and energy journey
in all aspects.
It opened me up to tarot and oracle
and believing in the energies of the universe.
(30:25):
And my daughter calls me a witch.
And I am definitely witchy.
That's great, which she tells.
She'll be like, my mom's a witch.
Great.
But yoga was what opened the door to that.
And that message that I received from Pike's Peaks
that I moved here for more, not to settle for less,
I don't think I would have ever been
open to receiving that message if it
(30:46):
wasn't for my yoga practice.
And yoga was just kind of the gateway to all of it
and to me really finding alignment
in my beliefs and my practices.
Yes.
Thank you for sharing that, that yoga was your gateway.
Because I feel like I talk about mindfulness
in almost every episode, every solo episode at least,
(31:09):
because it's such a foundational practice
to love yourself more deeply, to know yourself more deeply,
to have those healthy relationships.
It really is truly life changing.
Yeah, it's funny because people who haven't done yoga,
I feel like yoga has a stereotype.
But it's accurate, the stereotype of mindfulness
(31:30):
and connection and the community I found through yoga.
That was a big part of me finally establishing
a community here too.
Because even doing yoga teacher training online,
we all had this unique bond of having done yoga teacher
training through a screen, which teaching live people
versus teaching people on a screen
is a very, very different experience.
(31:52):
But it was so essential to me really
finding a community of like-minded people
that helped me see that I deserved more
in my personal relationship too.
Yes.
I love too that you said that you never
would have, like seven years ago,
you never would have believed.
You never would have believed someone
if they said that you would have taught yoga.
(32:14):
I feel like so many yoga teachers say that.
And a lot of people, myself included,
will go to a yoga teacher training
simply to deepen their own practice.
Or for me, it was I was very concerned
about getting injured in the class,
because teachers can't be watching every single person
at all times.
And it's such a life change.
Going through yoga teacher training,
(32:35):
I would say is even more life-changing than going
to yoga classes, because you learn a little bit more
about the intention behind every single thing.
One example is you learn more deeply the intention
behind Shavasana, that you're practicing dying.
And in most everyday yoga class, your yoga teacher
(32:56):
is not telling you, we're practicing dying.
But when you're going through the training,
you learn about that.
And you really learn about all the little things
in depth and why they're helpful.
And so everybody go to yoga teacher training.
Right?
Even when I signed up for yoga teacher training,
I didn't plan on teaching.
(33:16):
I just wanted to learn more.
I'm a lifelong learner.
I'm curious.
I just wanted to see what more there was,
because I knew that the physical practice of yoga
is just the tip of the iceberg.
But you learn so much about yourself in the process.
And it can be a really emotional experience, too.
Yes.
OK.
(33:37):
So where shall we meander next with this piece
about breaking toxic relationships?
I'm curious.
What was your experience like being
single in between the toxic relationships?
I didn't stay single long, when I should have.
I think the longest time period would
be after I left the abusive ex, and I just casually dated.
(34:01):
Then the next relationship was the fiancee.
A lot of ways was almost worse.
They're both abusive in their own ways.
That's when I found entrepreneurship.
So that's when I graduated from college.
I got my master's degree in that time.
But I think I was doing a lot of surface level progression,
(34:22):
and I wasn't digging deep enough.
I didn't go to therapy until I was in the relationship
with the ex-fiancee.
I was seeking out self-validation
in ways through business and education.
And all of those things are so important to my story
and who I am, but definitely not beneficial to healthier
(34:43):
relationships by any means.
I definitely never really dealt with recovering
from the abuse, for sure.
I just moved on.
And I moved in with my parents after college graduation.
I started working.
I was working two jobs plus had a home business.
So I was just diving into those very surface level
(35:03):
categories of life and not even thinking
about what I had left or what would
be next in a relationship.
And it was four years between those relationships.
And I sometimes kind of came and believe
it was that long because it felt like the blink of an eye.
And then I was just in another relationship that, well,
all my relationships moved really quickly,
but typically out of necessity and not out of want.
(35:24):
Whereas with my husband, we moved quickly
because we wanted to.
We actually said, so we started dating February of 23.
We said the earliest that he and Elena would move here
would be September of 24 while they moved here May of 23.
We like this long distance was not our thing.
(35:45):
But we chose to move up that timeline because we wanted it.
Whereas my fiance that I was with,
he moved in with me because he needed a place.
Or the abusive acts, I moved in with him
because my apartment had mold in it and I needed a place.
It was out of necessity and not out of choosing.
Always.
Yeah.
Yeah.
(36:05):
And then the time period between the ex-fiance
and the relationship here, it was only a couple of months.
Sometimes I think I just fell into that next relationship
because I was new to Colorado.
He was amazing at showing me places to go, things to see.
I didn't give myself any time to reset between relationships
or to dig deep.
(36:27):
Though honestly, emotionally, I was checked out
of that relationship long before it was over,
which is something I read and see a lot, especially women
in relationships emotionally long
before they do physically.
Yeah.
And I think I started to do that work on myself
while I was still in that relationship.
And that was the yoga teacher training.
That was getting into more mindfulness and meditation
(36:49):
and becoming more in tune with who I really am.
And yeah, like I said, I think I was already checked out.
So it's not really a period of time between relationships.
But it was that I was doing this inner work on myself
because before that, I just jumped.
(37:09):
Yeah.
So the healing happened within the relationship
before the one that you're in now.
And it's always going to continue.
Healing is a lifelong journey.
And we don't need to be 100% healed
to be in that next relationship.
Yeah.
(37:30):
We're messy humans.
That's something in entrepreneurship
I talk about all the time, but in relationships too.
And it's finding that person that
wants to be a messy human with you.
I love that.
Thank you.
And dealing with the stuff when it comes up.
And moving forward, it's a choice.
Every day, it's a choice.
(37:51):
Can you hear the cat playing in the background?
I cannot.
I wish I could though.
But yes.
OK, good.
There's good background noise cancellation.
You're going to get kicked out, sir.
I'm surprised none of my Hagrid's asleep next to me.
But I don't know where the rest of them
are, which is kind of concerning.
I really love the name Hagrid for a cat.
That is just the best.
I maybe told you that last time we talked.
(38:13):
Did I tell you how I ended up with him?
Maybe you did.
Tell me again.
I don't remember.
He, in 2020, showed up at my patio door, starving,
and driving my cats crazy.
So he made this loud production.
And it reminded me of when Hagrid shows up
at the hut in Harry Potter and busts down the door.
That's kind of how Hagrid came into my life.
(38:36):
And I told my ex, I'm not keeping him.
I'm not keeping him.
But I got tired of seeing him for three weeks.
He was showing up at my door.
And finally, I was like, I'm catching this damn cat.
He's starving.
He had a wound on his chest.
So I grabbed him.
And he's been here ever since, going on five years later,
which I can't believe it's been that long.
Was there an adjustment period for the other cats?
So at that point, I had Jack and Phoebe, Jack's
(38:57):
the cat that passed away in 2023.
Oh, really?
They really just kind of were like, oh, great.
Mom got another one.
We'll deal with it.
OK.
The biggest thing was he, I don't know how long.
Obviously, I have no idea how long he was outside.
I imagine someone dumped him because he was super loving.
But he sprayed stuff when he first showed up.
And I remember one day, I was like, I'm getting you neutered.
(39:19):
If you don't stop spraying, you have to go live on a farm.
And he never sprayed anything ever again.
So he speaks English.
Right, yeah.
But he's the only boy.
The rest are girls.
And he's a total mama's boy.
Yeah.
That's so cute.
We only have two cats.
The boy is our second cat and then the girl.
She's really small.
(39:40):
We think she was the runt.
We found her on the street, so we don't
know what her litter was like.
But I'm pretty sure she's a runt because she's teeny.
I've never seen a cat, like an adult cat that's that small.
And when we first brought the boy cat home,
his name is Paxton, we adopted him.
We thought that one of our phones was vibrating.
We were getting a call.
But it was Ruth, the girl cat, growling deeply.
(40:05):
She was pissed that another cat was in her space.
So we had to make this office his room with the door closed
and feed them on the opposite sides of the door,
get them used to each other's scents.
And then she was fine.
That's so funny.
Yeah, I just got to throw Hagrid in.
And then, yeah, it just kind of worked, shockingly.
(40:26):
But what's funny, though, is actually my cats
are part of my relationship stories, too.
My ex, Beyonce.
They all came with you with the past relationship?
Yeah, well, so I moved here with Jack and Phoebe.
And then Hagrid joined.
And then Jack passed away.
And my husband moved here with Tilly.
But the big thing was my ex, so the abuse of ex,
his Christmas present to me one year
(40:47):
was allowing me to have Jack live with us.
And then when he got mad at me, he
threatened to throw Jack outside.
He would say that I had to take Jack back to the farm,
where my parents have a farm.
So he used Jack as a way to control me.
And then, half-heartedly, when I was with my ex-fiance,
(41:08):
he was allergic to cats.
But he also knew I had cats when we started dating.
And he made me promise that if he was going to marry me,
that I wasn't going to have any more cats after Jack and Phoebe.
And I have two dogs.
And I love my dogs.
But they love you differently.
And I've always been a cat person overall.
Plus, you're a witch, so witches need cats.
(41:28):
Right, I have to have a cat.
But I remember he made me promise
that I would never have another cat.
And I promised him that.
And that was a big piece of letting
go of a chunk of my heart.
Because we have always, my parents,
and when I saw them last week, we actually
started to count up how many cats we've had.
And it's a lot.
(41:50):
But I remember thinking, even in the moment,
was I really willing to give up something so important to me?
And then fast forward, and the ex out here was allergic to cats.
And he gave me a hard time about keeping Hagrid.
But he also knew, I think both of us knew it wasn't long term.
But I always was given a hard time about the cat.
(42:11):
But my husband now is allergic to cats.
I have a trend going.
But he loves them as much as I do.
And he's the reason we have our newest cat,
because I've always had a solid white cat in my life.
And he went and got her.
And it's just so, it seems like something so minor.
But where my exes use the cats as almost a tool against me
(42:32):
or to control me, my husband would never do that now.
It's interesting that we talked about the cats.
And he's willing to deal with an allergy, too.
Yeah.
They don't bother him as much as they used to.
A lot of people with cat allergies
say the more they're around them, the more they adapt.
But he never complains about it.
(42:53):
The white, fluffy one, her dander
seems to affect him the most.
But he never complains about it.
And I remember Jack, the first weekend I saw,
so I went to Maine to see RJ and to help my brother move
to Colorado.
And Jack was diabetic.
So I took him with me, because I couldn't trust anyone
to take care of him here.
So I flew him to Maine with me.
(43:14):
And Jack always hated everybody I dated.
Always.
Always.
Animals love.
And I got him at 4 and 1 half weeks.
The shelter thought he was eight weeks.
Turned out he was 4 and 1 half.
So I defeated him with an eyedropper.
He was my baby.
He would sleep on the brim of my brother's baseball hat
if he was so small.
(43:34):
But I took him to Maine.
And we were at RJ's house.
And he was curled up in my lap.
And then all of a sudden, he stood up.
And he curled up on RJ's chest and fell asleep.
And I just have a photo.
I'm so glad I'm a big picture taker.
But that moment, I was kind of like, holy shit.
Maybe this is meant to be.
(43:55):
And I really felt like Jack was giving his approval.
And he passed away three weeks after that.
Wow.
He's like, mommy's in good hands with him.
Yeah.
Yeah.
My eyes are teary.
So bring tears to my eyes.
Yeah, I really, truly think he knew that I finally
had someone that was, I hate the phrase, take care of me.
(44:17):
But someone else.
There's Phoebe.
Someone who has your back.
Who's there for you.
Yeah, it's not, I know, I get what you mean about the not
taking care.
Because then we can venture into the kind of codependency
dynamics.
But it's like someone that is going to support you,
(44:38):
accept you unconditionally, and help you grow.
Yeah.
Like you mentioned that your husband said to you
that he's grown a lot from the relationship.
I'm sure you've grown a lot too.
Oh, yeah.
And that's always a good sign.
I'm so much happier.
Yeah.
We're both just more whole human beings.
And I just, I come to that peace with him and all.
(45:00):
It's we live a peaceful life.
A chaotic life, but a peaceful life overall.
So time is slipping away.
There are some questions that I ask people towards the end.
But there's also one more question
on this topic of toxic relationships
I'd love to ask you.
So lately when I've been talking about toxic relationships,
(45:21):
I've been talking about looking at what you brought
to the relationship that contributed
to the toxic dynamics.
We talked about, dude, this cat is running around like crazy.
We talked about already that one piece of justifying red flags.
And I'm curious if there's maybe one or two more things
(45:42):
that you can share that you realize
you brought to the table, just so that people listening
can maybe do an inquiry and realize that it takes two
people to be in a toxic relationship.
And I think it's so easy to, this
is going to be a little long winded,
because now I'm having something else come,
like an example come to my mind.
(46:03):
It's so easy to see our ex as the problem.
And a good example is I was watching on YouTube,
you know that movie The Breakup with Vince Vaughn
and Jennifer Aniston?
They have it on YouTube for free.
And if you read the comments, one comment
really stood out to me that was like,
this is a great message for immature men
(46:25):
or something like that.
And I found it so interesting, because as a relationship
coach, when you watch the movie, and as someone
that's gone through learning from toxic relationships,
when you watch the movie, yes, you
see how Vince Vaughn's character is toxic.
But you can also see how Jennifer Aniston's character
is contributing to that and what she is doing,
(46:49):
like the expecting him to read her mind
and not being direct with the communication.
So yeah, that is my long-winded question.
Yeah, I think the biggest piece is
I didn't take any time to heal, like we talked about,
and a serious lack of communication.
(47:09):
And it was, I think, mostly out of fear,
because I didn't want to be single if I'm really
being honest with myself.
And I thought if I really communicated
how I felt and what I wanted, that they would leave.
And so I would suppress a lot of how I felt and not communicate,
because I was afraid of fighting.
So relatable.
(47:30):
Yeah, in the last relationship, when I communicated,
it turned into a blowout fight that just kind of always
got swept under the rug and never solved.
So then I stopped communicating, and I
stopped relying on that relationship
to be any sort of outlet for me.
But I also just so desperately wanted someone, ironically,
(47:53):
wanted someone so desperately to see me for who I was that I
think I also suppressed the things about me
that make me really, because again, I
didn't want to scare them off.
Whereas with RJ, again, because I didn't expect to date him,
it was what you see is what you get.
(48:14):
And he knew everything.
And I feel lucky that it turned into a relationship
and a marriage.
But with relationships, I always tampered myself down.
And I didn't show up as me 100%.
There was always parts that I would hide or things
I wouldn't talk about.
But I think communication is a big one.
(48:38):
I didn't want to ruffle their feathers, lack of healing,
and not being authentically me.
I've been there myself, too.
Thank you for sharing that.
So one of the questions I ask every guest at the end
is, what does self-love mean to you?
(48:58):
Prioritizing peace.
And it looks different all the time.
Sometimes me prioritizing peace means
that I need to work really hard and check a bunch of stuff
off from my to-do list, because that's
going to give me peace at the end of the day.
And sometimes that is reading on the couch with my husband
for five hours on a Sunday afternoon
and putting the to-do list away.
But it's prioritizing whatever version of peace I need.
(49:21):
I wouldn't even say that day.
It's in that moment.
What do I need that in the long term
is going to help me continue to live a more peaceful life?
I love that.
And what makes you feel the most grounded?
I think it's just the little moments with my husband
and my daughter and forcing myself to remember
what I have now.
(49:43):
Because it's so easy to slip into where I've been
and even those trauma responses of this could happen
or this could happen.
But cooking dinner as a family, sitting down together,
watching.
We're big hockey fans.
I'm a huge Colorado Avalanche fan.
My husband's a Boston Bruins fan.
We watched a lot of hockey in this house.
And being my daughter, get excited about hockey.
(50:05):
It's just being in that moment of this is what matters.
Is this family in this time and this space?
And this is what we're working for every single day.
I feel how grounding that feels.
And then what is your favorite part about being a woman?
Getting to be this fluidity between the masculine
and the feminine energy.
(50:26):
Getting to lean into what messages or signs
is the universe showing me.
But at the same time, having the more masculine energy
of the to-do lists and getting shit done
and being a balance of both of those.
And I think it's just a really unique, incredible experience.
But on top of that, and this just came to me,
this will be the first time I've ever said that,
is being a mom and getting in the world we live in.
(50:51):
Getting to help my daughter understand the good and the bad
and being a nurturing place for her,
but also providing the discipline and structure for her.
I think it's just as important.
But raising a daughter as a woman
is an incredibly special experience.
That I never wanted kids, side note,
(51:12):
absolutely never, ever, ever wanted kids.
And I feel like, again, the universe was like,
no, you want this.
And getting to experience the world through her eyes
as her mom is a very uniquely special experience.
Yeah, it sounds like a complete perspective shift as well,
like of the world.
(51:32):
Because you see that like every little girl
starts out like this.
They have some sort of relationship with mom
and that like sets her up for life.
Yeah, very interesting.
So for the people that have tuned in,
let us know where we can connect with you
and more about your work and all of that fun stuff.
(51:56):
Yeah, so I'm a creative strategist
and I'm also a yoga teacher,
but I help entrepreneurs take their big ideas
and turn them into reality.
I like to say that my why is that dopamine hits
just before someone's big idea comes to life,
their website being launched, their event,
or rebranding, whatever it may be.
So I help coach entrepreneurs through that process
(52:19):
while also offering services like websites,
social media, copywriting, and just general strategy.
But if you wanna connect about any of that
or also just as a human being,
my social media is honestly mostly about me
as a human and not me as a business owner.
My Instagram's probably the best way to find me
and that's life Jenn's way.
There's two N's on Jenn or my website is Jenn's way.
(52:42):
Cool, and I will put all those links in the show notes.
Thank you so much.
This was great.
It's been amazing.
Thank you so much.
Jenn Hartt is a creative strategist, world traveler,
(00:02):
and storyteller with a passion for connecting people
through authentic stories.
As the founder of Jenn's Way,
she helps entrepreneurs turn big ideas into reality.
A bit witchy and deeply reflective,
Jenn believes in the magic of the world around us
and strives to create a safe space
where everyone feels like they belong.
With a BA in English from the University of Maine
(00:25):
and an MBA in corporate social responsibility from SNHU,
Jenn has spent her career blending creativity,
strategy, and purpose.
She's lived all over the country,
including Maine and Colorado,
and her adventures have taken her to 48 states,
13 countries, including Russia
for her first international trip,
and Paris for a semester abroad.
(00:47):
Jenn is also a yoga teacher, an avid reader,
a host of the podcast, Your Next Business Bestie.
She's married to the love of her life,
and I am very excited to bring her on to the show.
We're going to be talking about how hard it is
to get out of that cycle of toxic relationships,
(01:07):
and we're basically gonna hear Jenn's authentic sharing
and her authentic story.
["The Next Business Bestie"]
["The Next Business Bestie"]
Welcome to Openly Spoken,
(01:28):
the podcast to help you show up, speak out,
and be seen in healthy relationships.
On this show, we talk about self-love, sexuality,
relationship tips,
including ending the cycle of toxic relationships,
and healing and thriving after heartbreak.
Hi, I'm your host Cilia, and I'm a certified sex love
(01:49):
and relationship coach, helping ambitious women
with a history of toxic relationships
feel deeply connected in healthy love.
These are such important topics that every woman deserves,
so if you could leave this show a rating and a review
on Apple podcasts or Spotify to help more women find this,
it would mean the absolute world to me.
Thank you so much for being here today.
(02:11):
Now let's dive into the show.
["The Next Business Bestie"]
Thank you, Jenn, for joining me.
Yeah, thank you for having me.
(02:32):
I'm really excited.
Yes, I'm excited too,
especially since we're gonna be talking about
ending that cycle of toxic relationships
and how hard that cycle is to break.
Yeah, it's such a topic that's near and dear to my heart.
Yeah, I feel like it was the definition of my life
for a while, and it's amazing once you break that cycle,
(02:54):
it's all these things, you know, people saying,
you deserve better, or you shouldn't be treated that way,
but until you break out of it on your own
and see what a difference a healthy relationship,
and maybe that's just a healthy relationship with yourself,
it doesn't necessarily mean a new romantic partner,
but it's literally like a veil opening over your info.
(03:14):
Yes, you start to experience things that make you go,
wait, what?
This is a thing?
People like this exist, or moments like this exist,
or this is possible?
Like, it's like we don't even know to want certain things
because we don't even realize that thing was even possible.
(03:34):
Yeah, or even like day to day is something I really,
I have to pause once in a while, like my husband now,
he'll be cooking dinner or cleaning or whatever,
but I've had a long day or not feeling great,
and I still struggle with sitting on the couch
and relaxing while he's doing something, quote unquote,
(03:54):
what we see as productive, though both are productive.
I struggle with just, and he'll have to tell me like,
no, just go sit, and it still takes me a second,
like that's okay, like we don't both need to be doing
all that, like we sat on our couch and read
for like five hours yesterday, and it was amazing.
Yeah.
That sounds nice.
(04:15):
Yeah, it was lovely.
Do the cats cuddle when you guys are reading?
Hagrid does, especially, he's right here next to me.
Hagrid, oh, I love that name.
Yeah, he's gotten very cuddly in the last few months.
My sole cat, I think I've told you, passed away in 2023,
and the biggest thing I missed was having a cat
that would cuddle, like not all cats,
(04:36):
Phoebe's right here next to me,
she'll hang out, but she's not gonna cuddle,
and Hagrid has finally stepped up,
and he's the cuddler now, he's a cuddler.
Oh, I have a cat meowing outside of my door,
and he's a huge cuddler.
He's like, let me in, I wanna be part of it too.
Yeah, maybe he can sit, if he can sit on my lap nicely,
(05:00):
we'll see, hold on, I'm gonna bring him in.
This is Paxton.
Oh, hi sweet baby.
We have an almost two-year-old too,
I think she's sleeping on my bed right now though.
Oh, yeah, so maybe if I keep him in my lap,
he'll be content here.
Okay.
He never does.
(05:21):
I know.
So I would love to hear just your journey
with this toxic relationships,
what was it like for you,
and then when was that shift of recognizing,
oh, I keep getting into this pattern
of toxic relationships, and then from there,
(05:43):
what practices or work did you do?
I wanna know all of it.
Yeah, I think I can confidently say
that every relationship up until the one I'm currently in
would be considered toxic.
I don't really know how it all started,
but we all create these patterns without intending to.
My high school sweetheart was a drug addict
(06:05):
who ended up picking drugs over our relationship,
that was his way,
because I almost said if he went back to drugs
that we were over.
And it's interesting because I moved to Maine,
I grew up in Texas and I moved to Maine in that time,
and I'm thankful that I had this big move happening
because I bet I would have stayed with him otherwise.
(06:26):
I bet I would just would have,
tried to fix things.
I've always been a fixer.
I've always seen the best in people,
even when they absolutely refuse to see it in themselves,
and I have a hard time remembering
that if they don't wanna do the work,
I can't do it for them.
And all relationships, friendships,
romantic relationships, family, all of it.
(06:49):
And in college, I had a couple of relationships,
one was just a two month, very over the top,
madly in love, 18 years old, that kind of thing.
And then I was in an abusive relationship after that,
that calendar wise didn't last all that long,
but it had the biggest impact on me for a very long time.
(07:10):
And it took a long time for me to actually admit
that it was abusive and to put that fatal on it.
I even years later tried to tell myself it wasn't that bad,
but in things like he would send me to the basement
to do my homework,
because he didn't wanna see me doing my homework,
I was a senior in college at this point.
Or he'd tell me that he could tell
(07:31):
if I'd gone to the gym that day,
because I was skinnier if I'd gone to the gym that day.
Yeah, very twisted, very abusive.
Yeah, I actually was just in Maine last week,
and we drove through where I lived with him.
And it was a little triggering of some of the things
that maybe I suppress a little bit in my day to day,
but we lived across the street
from a mental health institution,
(07:52):
and he used to threaten to have me sent there.
Just horribly toxic.
And like I said, I kind of told myself it wasn't that bad,
and that maybe I was 21 and a little dramatic.
And then years later, his now ex-wife reached out to me,
and the same thing had happened to her.
And it was a unique blessing.
I believe that the authentic sharing of stories
(08:12):
has the power to save lives.
And even if I was just an outlet for her for just a glimpse,
I was thankful that I could be someone
that she could talk to.
And it also solidified my own story, I guess, in a way.
And from there, I...
You feel validated when you know that it wasn't just you.
Exactly.
(08:33):
And that you weren't being 21 and dramatic, like you said.
Right, yeah, I felt horrible for her.
But at the same time, it's like this polar opposites
of validated, but also realized I had some more work to do,
to heal from what, and it had been almost 10 years
at that point.
But I am thankful that I could be there for her in a unique way
that no one else could.
(08:54):
When I was in a relationship in my mid-20s,
that I was raising his son, we got engaged.
I gave up everything for this man.
And I really think it all comes down
to the seeing the best in people and losing myself in wanting
to help them be better.
(09:16):
And that's kind of the common thread through all
of my relationships up until now.
And that act is called off.
Sorry to interrupt.
No, no, no, go ahead.
Would that include that piece of seeing the best in people
and wanting to help them be better?
Would that include things like ignoring red flags?
(09:36):
Absolutely.
Or justifying red flags?
I can still relate, by the way.
Yeah.
Justifying red flags, yeah.
Yeah, like one of those, oh, there's
no wonder he or she is like this because they went through this.
Yeah.
Now that you say that, that's a really pivotal moment
is my most recent act.
(09:58):
Something that came to me when I was doing yoga and meditating
was we can either sit in our shit or we can grow in it.
And I was choosing to grow from it.
And I realized that ex was just going to sit in it.
And he was using everything he'd been through as an excuse
to be a toxic human, to be a little bit of a narcissist.
And I was done with it.
(10:20):
And that doesn't mean I still see the best in people.
I still want to help people achieve whatever level they
want to achieve, but let them be the guiding force instead
of me being the one to push it and stay in spaces
that I shouldn't be in.
Yes.
Yeah.
That's a big difference.
Right?
Them guiding it instead of me.
(10:40):
So my late 20s, I was engaged.
Like I said, I was raising his son.
I gave up my everything for this man.
We started a business together, a construction business.
And it plummeted me into almost $80,000 in credit card debt,
which I'm still digging out of.
(11:00):
I have $15,000 left to pay off.
It's been six years.
But basically, one day, he thought
we were driving in his truck.
And he said he didn't want to get married.
And then it was a very toxic cycle for about six months.
We were together.
We worked together.
He wanted to elope.
He didn't want to elope.
And that's when I slipped into my darkest depression.
(11:23):
That's when I developed anxiety, which
I would do anything to not have the anxiety
that I've created in my life.
That's how I ended up in Colorado, too.
And I'm very much like a silver lining,
seeing the best in situations, even if it sucks
while you're in it.
And the best thing that could have happened to me
(11:44):
was ending up in Colorado, which is where I am now,
because I changed my whole life moving here.
That's when I started my business, because we broke up
and I didn't know what else to do.
So I started off as a virtual assistant.
I'm now a creative strategist helping small business owners
make their big ideas a reality.
But I still ended up in a toxic relationship
(12:04):
while I moved here for the first four years.
And he wasn't a bad person.
He's the one, though, that I've been through a lot
and decided just to use it as an excuse.
And I, in my soul, knew that he wanted to love who I was,
but he really loved who he thought I should be.
And I was never going to be who he thought I should be.
(12:27):
And it's things like my business is important to me.
If any of your listeners follow astrology,
I have a lot of Capricorn in my chart.
I'm very driven.
I'm goal-oriented.
And if I told him I had a new client,
it was, so you're going to have less time for me.
It was about everything was twisted to be about him.
And I knew better.
(12:49):
That was the hardest thing is, at this point, I'm 30 years old.
And I knew better.
And my friends knew I knew better.
And everyone just kind of wondered
why I was continuing to put up with it.
And I remember people used to ask me,
how are you and him doing?
And I would say, you know, it's fine.
It's whatever.
It's on autopilot.
Everything else in my life is great.
Stuff with him is fine.
And fine wasn't enough, finally.
(13:12):
And my husband and my story is crazy.
We get a lot of shocked looks.
So January of 2023, so two years ago, he and I reconnected.
He was supposed to be the best man in my first wedding.
He grew up with my fiance.
And when I just say that, pirate people think,
(13:32):
he's fully at the altar.
But it was five years later.
So we reconnected.
And I just remember thinking, this man who barely knew me
was so excited to hear about every dream I had,
everything I wanted for my business.
I was hosting my first women's retreat.
He's blue collar.
(13:53):
So I bring up tarot cards and oracle cards.
And my ex would have just ignored it.
But I remember RJ asked me to pull cards for him.
And it was like this moment of, oh, somebody can actually
want to be interested in what I'm, just because I'm
interested in it, he wants to hear about it.
And that was a big struggle with my ex, too,
(14:14):
is he'd never asked about anything going on in my life.
And he'd always say, that doesn't mean I don't care.
And that doesn't work for me.
I'm an acknowledge seeker, a question asker.
It's not hard to show interest in what's going
on in other people's lives.
But my husband really just showed me
that it was OK to be me.
(14:35):
I mean, I never planned on dating him.
I actually thought that it was that he and my ex
were setting me up and making a joke of me by him reaching out.
Like, I did not.
We were just talking about this last night, actually.
I did not believe him at all.
But long story short, we started dating February of 23,
very shortly after I broke up with my ex.
We got engaged in May.
(14:56):
And we had our wedding that October.
And he moved from Maine to here that May as well
with our daughter, who I'm in the process of adopting.
But I just kind of decided that enough was enough.
And I feel like the universe showed me, OK,
we've sent you enough signs that my ex wasn't for me.
Here is this man who sees you and appreciates you.
(15:18):
And I remember looking at Pike's Peak one day
and thinking, I didn't move to Colorado to settle for less.
And that's what I was doing in my relationship.
I am celebrating you that you are in a relationship where
someone is showing that interest and sees you for who you are.
And I'm curious if that was triggering at first
(15:41):
and what you did about that.
Because that's very common.
Yeah.
Yeah, I think I still have moments
that I don't believe that even the sitting on the couch,
I think there's a subconscious level that thinks that later
on, we're going to get in a fight because I
chose to sit on the couch.
Yeah.
And it's really uncomfortable when
(16:01):
you get used to being in toxic relationships
to be in one that's not anymore.
Yes, I agree.
You've become so used to toxicity
that it's become like this balancing point.
And now you're off balance, which seems so backwards.
But you're off balance because someone isn't in toxic.
Yeah, I think it's like your nervous system is
(16:22):
so used to the threats and responding to the threats
that when the threats aren't there, you're like,
I know there's something.
I know there's a lion somewhere.
Yeah, and I mean, every once in a while,
I still have like every, all but one of my exes cheated on me.
And so that's a big one for a lot of people
is having the trust that you really found somebody
(16:44):
that values you and your relationship
enough to be faithful.
And I believe in big leaps of faith.
But that doesn't mean that my subconscious doesn't
get in there sometimes.
And we're two years in now, which is still very new.
We had this moment the other night,
like we got married really fast.
But we just both knew we were all in.
It was what we wanted.
And it's worked.
(17:05):
He is my absolute best friend.
But I absolutely still have those moments
that you're waiting for the other shoe to drop.
And just expecting the fights and expecting.
I think one of the weirdest moments
was we had a disagreement about beliefs.
And at the end, he said, you know,
(17:26):
I really value what you said.
And I'm going to think about it more.
And I was like, you mean we're not going to just fight
and I don't want to apologize and shove it under the mat
for another day?
What?
So receiving apologies is very uncomfortable for me,
for sure.
Yeah.
(17:47):
Yeah, I totally.
It's so relatable.
For me with fights, I go into like, it's done.
Like he's going to leave.
For me, my biggest thing is like this abandonment wound
that I'm very aware of.
And it gets triggered in fights.
I'm like, oh crap, he's done.
(18:07):
He's going to divorce me.
Yeah.
Yeah, it's amazing, the old stuff that comes up,
no matter what.
Or like the ex from college that used to tell me I was crazy.
And my husband will tell me I'm crazy all the time,
but not in a serious way.
But I expect it sometimes.
And sometimes we are irrational human beings in moments.
(18:31):
And he doesn't hold it against me.
Communication, I mean, it's really the basics.
Communication is everything.
I know that I can tell him.
He knows all of my deepest, darkest secrets.
He knows everything about me.
And when I talk to my friends that are still sticking out
the relationship part of their lives,
(18:51):
that's the biggest thing is someone
who you know you can tell everything to,
and they're still going to be there the next day.
Yes, for sure.
Which can be so scary when you're
used to that toxic relationship cycle,
because it can be really hard to open up in the first place.
But when you do open up and it doesn't cause a blowout fight
(19:14):
and the person's like, OK, I get that.
I get why you did that.
It's so healing.
And I think that really speaks to how
in between these relationships when we are single
and we're working on our own healing, it's great
and it's wonderful and we need to do that.
However, I think the healing also
(19:35):
continues within a relationship in moments like that.
Absolutely.
And healing is a journey we're all on forever.
I had somebody on my podcast that
talked about the word healed and how even if something feels
healed, oftentimes it will creep back up in a different way,
(19:57):
in an unexpected way.
And it's just that commitment to keep moving forward
if this is the person that you want to be with.
And I, especially in the beginning,
recognizing that they're not your F. They're not.
And that can be hard.
For me, where I have a relationship I've been with
was primarily with narcissistic, toxic humans
(20:20):
to believe that it really could be different this time
and have it be that way.
But those red flags you mentioned, not ignoring them
and deciding what's a red flag and what's
just a human characteristic, what's
something that could make or break a relationship
or cause you to be back in that toxicity versus something
(20:42):
that's just a trait that's not necessarily a bad thing.
What helped you the most to stop ignoring those red flags
and to have that confidence of this isn't good enough for me?
I did a lot of journaling.
I am a yoga teacher.
And I'll just a lot of introspection
of what I wanted in the next five years.
(21:05):
I'm 35 now.
So I was 33 when this big change, when my husband and I
got together.
And I just kind of realized that enough was enough.
And all of these other parts of my life were so good.
My business was booming.
I had great friends, still have great friends.
(21:25):
I had finally found my community here
in Colorado, which was the hardest part of moving
to Colorado was losing my community in Maine.
But I finally felt like I'd found my circle of people.
The only thing I'd ever cry over,
the only thing that caused big stress was my relationship.
And I realized I was working so hard for a relationship
(21:47):
that in my gut I knew wasn't the right one.
And it was almost harder because nothing,
the ex that I was engaged to, he called off the wedding.
It was toxic in the end.
The abusive ex, it was actually when I finally
told my dad what was going on that I knew
there was no turning back.
But with the most recent ex, there was nothing,
(22:08):
there was no final nail in the coffin per se.
It was just me deciding to walk away.
And that in a lot of ways was harder
because I know I hurt him by leaving.
And like I said, he wasn't a bad person.
He just wasn't my person.
And I was done not, if I was going
to have somebody be in that role in my life,
(22:29):
then I wanted it to be somebody that I could be me
and that was going to fully show up.
Being an entrepreneur is hard.
And having a partner that supports you as an entrepreneur
makes a world of difference.
Yeah.
How has that shifted not only your business,
but the relationships you can have in your business,
(22:51):
with your clients?
I think I enjoy my business more than I did before
because I can celebrate it with this person that I love.
And my friends would celebrate my business with me before.
But I always knew when I told my ex that I got a new client
or a new project or whatever that he
was going to put a damper on it.
So then I just avoided celebrating it.
(23:12):
And now I'm allowed to be more human.
And I think being human in our businesses is everything.
And I prioritize finding clients that also appreciate me
and see me as a human being and not a business.
And that's what I tell my clients to do too.
Because the best example I have is
when my sole cat was passing away in March of 23,
(23:34):
I had a client that I'd still been meeting with.
And I asked her if we could push the meeting
because I needed to go get Jack from the emergency vet.
And she sent me back a text and it just said no.
And at first I was like, oh, she's mad.
And then a minute later she was like, Jenn,
you need to go take care of yourself.
I know how much this cat means to you.
We can reschedule any time.
And I just had this moment that I was like, she sees me.
(23:57):
She sees me as a human being.
And I think by having a romantic partner who
appreciates that my business is part of me
makes me want more clients that see that I'm a human and not
just a business.
And it helps me talk to business owners about it too,
which is something I'm learning I really love to do
is more of the coaching space.
(24:19):
So it's kind of what I've started to delve
into a little bit this year.
But we need to be able to be humans and not just businesses.
And we need to have a support system
when being an entrepreneur sucks,
because sometimes it sucks.
Sometimes it's really lonely.
But knowing that even if my husband doesn't understand
the thing that I do, which watch me working and building
(24:40):
websites or whatever and does not understand what I do at all,
but he supports it.
And if I have to work on a weekend,
it's more likely that I won't work because I want to than him
criticizing me working versus my ex.
If I pulled out my laptop after 7 o'clock,
I was always an eye roll.
It was always a big dramatic whatever.
And I do think there's a difference.
(25:01):
And my husband and I have a family too.
And he knows that my income is important to our family as well.
But even before we were living together,
he was my biggest fan as soon as we reconnected.
And as cliche as it is, when it works, it works.
When you find your person, it's just a more peaceful existence.
I totally understand the cliche too,
(25:22):
even what you described earlier about how
you said when you know you know, because you
got married quickly.
Same thing happened with my husband.
Very similar to your story actually,
because we knew each other before,
but we did start dating until way after.
Which brings up the question for me of,
(25:44):
what do you think there is to be said about when we grow
and learn from this journey of toxic relationships,
how we see the people in our lives?
It shifts.
Because my husband, I knew him when I was a teenager,
but I didn't want to be in a relationship with a guy that
respected me.
(26:05):
I wanted a mean boyfriend.
Yeah, I wanted the guy that I could fix.
I wanted, you know, and my husband
will be the first one to say that he's grown
a lot because of our relationship
and because of getting out of northern Maine, which
is where he and my daughter lives.
But it has, we kind of joke about it,
(26:25):
but ever since I left my ex and started dating my husband,
I just keep setting the spaces and people that
no longer align with who I am.
And I think by making this choice
in the most important relationship in my life,
it caused me to pause and make sure
that the other people in places that I'm spending time with
(26:47):
align with this higher version of myself.
And not everything I've left has been this big to do,
but I have found myself prioritizing
my peaf over everything.
And that's caused me to leave a lot of, you know,
I quit one of the yoga studios I worked at.
And that wasn't because of the studio, really.
It was because it took so much time out of my Thursday evening
(27:09):
to drive all the way to the studio, find child care,
that it was more stressful than peaceful.
And I think that that's kind of how I evaluate everything.
Is this more peaceful or is it causing more turmoil
in long term, not in the moment?
So I have proven to myself that I can have this very peaceful,
(27:31):
happy relationship.
So I think on a not so subconscious level,
I would just want that in all aspects of my life.
Yeah, it has such a ripple effect.
And that's so soothing that after you've
went through this journey of these tumultuous relationships
to use peace as your new barometer.
(27:54):
And I think that's a very good inquiry
to really look at all things of your life and be like,
is this bringing me peace or is this costing my peace?
Yeah.
And knowing that you deserve peace,
I think that was part of it.
I don't think I believed that I deserved,
because I've always been the go, go, go,
really active doing all the things.
(28:15):
And I still do all the things, but I
have a much more peaceful life.
And I truly don't think that I thought
I deserved it until it kind of just walked into my life.
I decided to put my life in a blender in 2023,
and the universe decided what was going to come out.
(28:37):
And here we are in 2025, and it was the best thing
that could have happened to me.
I love that for you.
It's been a wild ride, for sure.
Yeah.
And when did you start your yoga practice,
and how did that have an effect on your relationship journey?
Because for me, yoga practice was a huge pivotal practice.
(28:58):
Yeah, it's interesting.
I started yoga in 2012, but not in any sort of wellness
capacity.
I have a history of eating disorders and body dysmorphia.
And for me, I was like, oh, yoga, maybe
that will help me lose weight.
And that's why I started yoga originally,
was a way to lose weight.
And so it was not a consistent practice for me
(29:20):
for the first few years.
And it was when I moved to Colorado
that I really dove in to my yoga practice.
It's actually the studio I stopped teaching at last year,
but Cambio here in Colorado Springs, that's donation-based.
And when I first moved to Colorado, I was broke.
And I had that $80,000 worth of credit card debt
that I mentioned.
So if I was going to do yoga, it had to be cheap.
(29:42):
And Cambio's donation-based.
And so I was at the yoga studio three, four, five times a week,
getting as much practice in as I possibly could.
And I went through yoga teacher training in 2020.
And if you told me seven years ago
that I was going to be a yoga teacher,
I would have laughed you out of the room.
Because there's no way I was going
to be in front of people doing something physical.
(30:04):
Absolutely not.
But I say that my yoga mat is where
I pulled myself out of my depression
from the release trip in Maine.
And yoga was the start of my wellness and energy journey
in all aspects.
It opened me up to tarot and oracle
and believing in the energies of the universe.
(30:25):
And my daughter calls me a witch.
And I am definitely witchy.
That's great, which she tells.
She'll be like, my mom's a witch.
Great.
But yoga was what opened the door to that.
And that message that I received from Pike's Peaks
that I moved here for more, not to settle for less,
I don't think I would have ever been
open to receiving that message if it
(30:46):
wasn't for my yoga practice.
And yoga was just kind of the gateway to all of it
and to me really finding alignment
in my beliefs and my practices.
Yes.
Thank you for sharing that, that yoga was your gateway.
Because I feel like I talk about mindfulness
in almost every episode, every solo episode at least,
(31:09):
because it's such a foundational practice
to love yourself more deeply, to know yourself more deeply,
to have those healthy relationships.
It really is truly life changing.
Yeah, it's funny because people who haven't done yoga,
I feel like yoga has a stereotype.
But it's accurate, the stereotype of mindfulness
(31:30):
and connection and the community I found through yoga.
That was a big part of me finally establishing
a community here too.
Because even doing yoga teacher training online,
we all had this unique bond of having done yoga teacher
training through a screen, which teaching live people
versus teaching people on a screen
is a very, very different experience.
(31:52):
But it was so essential to me really
finding a community of like-minded people
that helped me see that I deserved more
in my personal relationship too.
Yes.
I love too that you said that you never
would have, like seven years ago,
you never would have believed.
You never would have believed someone
if they said that you would have taught yoga.
(32:14):
I feel like so many yoga teachers say that.
And a lot of people, myself included,
will go to a yoga teacher training
simply to deepen their own practice.
Or for me, it was I was very concerned
about getting injured in the class,
because teachers can't be watching every single person
at all times.
And it's such a life change.
Going through yoga teacher training,
(32:35):
I would say is even more life-changing than going
to yoga classes, because you learn a little bit more
about the intention behind every single thing.
One example is you learn more deeply the intention
behind Shavasana, that you're practicing dying.
And in most everyday yoga class, your yoga teacher
(32:56):
is not telling you, we're practicing dying.
But when you're going through the training,
you learn about that.
And you really learn about all the little things
in depth and why they're helpful.
And so everybody go to yoga teacher training.
Right?
Even when I signed up for yoga teacher training,
I didn't plan on teaching.
(33:16):
I just wanted to learn more.
I'm a lifelong learner.
I'm curious.
I just wanted to see what more there was,
because I knew that the physical practice of yoga
is just the tip of the iceberg.
But you learn so much about yourself in the process.
And it can be a really emotional experience, too.
Yes.
OK.
(33:37):
So where shall we meander next with this piece
about breaking toxic relationships?
I'm curious.
What was your experience like being
single in between the toxic relationships?
I didn't stay single long, when I should have.
I think the longest time period would
be after I left the abusive ex, and I just casually dated.
(34:01):
Then the next relationship was the fiancee.
A lot of ways was almost worse.
They're both abusive in their own ways.
That's when I found entrepreneurship.
So that's when I graduated from college.
I got my master's degree in that time.
But I think I was doing a lot of surface level progression,
(34:22):
and I wasn't digging deep enough.
I didn't go to therapy until I was in the relationship
with the ex-fiancee.
I was seeking out self-validation
in ways through business and education.
And all of those things are so important to my story
and who I am, but definitely not beneficial to healthier
(34:43):
relationships by any means.
I definitely never really dealt with recovering
from the abuse, for sure.
I just moved on.
And I moved in with my parents after college graduation.
I started working.
I was working two jobs plus had a home business.
So I was just diving into those very surface level
(35:03):
categories of life and not even thinking
about what I had left or what would
be next in a relationship.
And it was four years between those relationships.
And I sometimes kind of came and believe
it was that long because it felt like the blink of an eye.
And then I was just in another relationship that, well,
all my relationships moved really quickly,
but typically out of necessity and not out of want.
(35:24):
Whereas with my husband, we moved quickly
because we wanted to.
We actually said, so we started dating February of 23.
We said the earliest that he and Elena would move here
would be September of 24 while they moved here May of 23.
We like this long distance was not our thing.
(35:45):
But we chose to move up that timeline because we wanted it.
Whereas my fiance that I was with,
he moved in with me because he needed a place.
Or the abusive acts, I moved in with him
because my apartment had mold in it and I needed a place.
It was out of necessity and not out of choosing.
Always.
Yeah.
Yeah.
(36:05):
And then the time period between the ex-fiance
and the relationship here, it was only a couple of months.
Sometimes I think I just fell into that next relationship
because I was new to Colorado.
He was amazing at showing me places to go, things to see.
I didn't give myself any time to reset between relationships
or to dig deep.
(36:27):
Though honestly, emotionally, I was checked out
of that relationship long before it was over,
which is something I read and see a lot, especially women
in relationships emotionally long
before they do physically.
Yeah.
And I think I started to do that work on myself
while I was still in that relationship.
And that was the yoga teacher training.
That was getting into more mindfulness and meditation
(36:49):
and becoming more in tune with who I really am.
And yeah, like I said, I think I was already checked out.
So it's not really a period of time between relationships.
But it was that I was doing this inner work on myself
because before that, I just jumped.
(37:09):
Yeah.
So the healing happened within the relationship
before the one that you're in now.
And it's always going to continue.
Healing is a lifelong journey.
And we don't need to be 100% healed
to be in that next relationship.
Yeah.
(37:30):
We're messy humans.
That's something in entrepreneurship
I talk about all the time, but in relationships too.
And it's finding that person that
wants to be a messy human with you.
I love that.
Thank you.
And dealing with the stuff when it comes up.
And moving forward, it's a choice.
Every day, it's a choice.
(37:51):
Can you hear the cat playing in the background?
I cannot.
I wish I could though.
But yes.
OK, good.
There's good background noise cancellation.
You're going to get kicked out, sir.
I'm surprised none of my Hagrid's asleep next to me.
But I don't know where the rest of them
are, which is kind of concerning.
I really love the name Hagrid for a cat.
That is just the best.
I maybe told you that last time we talked.
(38:13):
Did I tell you how I ended up with him?
Maybe you did.
Tell me again.
I don't remember.
He, in 2020, showed up at my patio door, starving,
and driving my cats crazy.
So he made this loud production.
And it reminded me of when Hagrid shows up
at the hut in Harry Potter and busts down the door.
That's kind of how Hagrid came into my life.
(38:36):
And I told my ex, I'm not keeping him.
I'm not keeping him.
But I got tired of seeing him for three weeks.
He was showing up at my door.
And finally, I was like, I'm catching this damn cat.
He's starving.
He had a wound on his chest.
So I grabbed him.
And he's been here ever since, going on five years later,
which I can't believe it's been that long.
Was there an adjustment period for the other cats?
So at that point, I had Jack and Phoebe, Jack's
(38:57):
the cat that passed away in 2023.
Oh, really?
They really just kind of were like, oh, great.
Mom got another one.
We'll deal with it.
OK.
The biggest thing was he, I don't know how long.
Obviously, I have no idea how long he was outside.
I imagine someone dumped him because he was super loving.
But he sprayed stuff when he first showed up.
And I remember one day, I was like, I'm getting you neutered.
(39:19):
If you don't stop spraying, you have to go live on a farm.
And he never sprayed anything ever again.
So he speaks English.
Right, yeah.
But he's the only boy.
The rest are girls.
And he's a total mama's boy.
Yeah.
That's so cute.
We only have two cats.
The boy is our second cat and then the girl.
She's really small.
(39:40):
We think she was the runt.
We found her on the street, so we don't
know what her litter was like.
But I'm pretty sure she's a runt because she's teeny.
I've never seen a cat, like an adult cat that's that small.
And when we first brought the boy cat home,
his name is Paxton, we adopted him.
We thought that one of our phones was vibrating.
We were getting a call.
But it was Ruth, the girl cat, growling deeply.
(40:05):
She was pissed that another cat was in her space.
So we had to make this office his room with the door closed
and feed them on the opposite sides of the door,
get them used to each other's scents.
And then she was fine.
That's so funny.
Yeah, I just got to throw Hagrid in.
And then, yeah, it just kind of worked, shockingly.
(40:26):
But what's funny, though, is actually my cats
are part of my relationship stories, too.
My ex, Beyonce.
They all came with you with the past relationship?
Yeah, well, so I moved here with Jack and Phoebe.
And then Hagrid joined.
And then Jack passed away.
And my husband moved here with Tilly.
But the big thing was my ex, so the abuse of ex,
his Christmas present to me one year
(40:47):
was allowing me to have Jack live with us.
And then when he got mad at me, he
threatened to throw Jack outside.
He would say that I had to take Jack back to the farm,
where my parents have a farm.
So he used Jack as a way to control me.
And then, half-heartedly, when I was with my ex-fiance,
(41:08):
he was allergic to cats.
But he also knew I had cats when we started dating.
And he made me promise that if he was going to marry me,
that I wasn't going to have any more cats after Jack and Phoebe.
And I have two dogs.
And I love my dogs.
But they love you differently.
And I've always been a cat person overall.
Plus, you're a witch, so witches need cats.
(41:28):
Right, I have to have a cat.
But I remember he made me promise
that I would never have another cat.
And I promised him that.
And that was a big piece of letting
go of a chunk of my heart.
Because we have always, my parents,
and when I saw them last week, we actually
started to count up how many cats we've had.
And it's a lot.
(41:50):
But I remember thinking, even in the moment,
was I really willing to give up something so important to me?
And then fast forward, and the ex out here was allergic to cats.
And he gave me a hard time about keeping Hagrid.
But he also knew, I think both of us knew it wasn't long term.
But I always was given a hard time about the cat.
(42:11):
But my husband now is allergic to cats.
I have a trend going.
But he loves them as much as I do.
And he's the reason we have our newest cat,
because I've always had a solid white cat in my life.
And he went and got her.
And it's just so, it seems like something so minor.
But where my exes use the cats as almost a tool against me
(42:32):
or to control me, my husband would never do that now.
It's interesting that we talked about the cats.
And he's willing to deal with an allergy, too.
Yeah.
They don't bother him as much as they used to.
A lot of people with cat allergies
say the more they're around them, the more they adapt.
But he never complains about it.
(42:53):
The white, fluffy one, her dander
seems to affect him the most.
But he never complains about it.
And I remember Jack, the first weekend I saw,
so I went to Maine to see RJ and to help my brother move
to Colorado.
And Jack was diabetic.
So I took him with me, because I couldn't trust anyone
to take care of him here.
So I flew him to Maine with me.
(43:14):
And Jack always hated everybody I dated.
Always.
Always.
Animals love.
And I got him at 4 and 1 half weeks.
The shelter thought he was eight weeks.
Turned out he was 4 and 1 half.
So I defeated him with an eyedropper.
He was my baby.
He would sleep on the brim of my brother's baseball hat
if he was so small.
(43:34):
But I took him to Maine.
And we were at RJ's house.
And he was curled up in my lap.
And then all of a sudden, he stood up.
And he curled up on RJ's chest and fell asleep.
And I just have a photo.
I'm so glad I'm a big picture taker.
But that moment, I was kind of like, holy shit.
Maybe this is meant to be.
(43:55):
And I really felt like Jack was giving his approval.
And he passed away three weeks after that.
Wow.
He's like, mommy's in good hands with him.
Yeah.
Yeah.
My eyes are teary.
So bring tears to my eyes.
Yeah, I really, truly think he knew that I finally
had someone that was, I hate the phrase, take care of me.
(44:17):
But someone else.
There's Phoebe.
Someone who has your back.
Who's there for you.
Yeah, it's not, I know, I get what you mean about the not
taking care.
Because then we can venture into the kind of codependency
dynamics.
But it's like someone that is going to support you,
(44:38):
accept you unconditionally, and help you grow.
Yeah.
Like you mentioned that your husband said to you
that he's grown a lot from the relationship.
I'm sure you've grown a lot too.
Oh, yeah.
And that's always a good sign.
I'm so much happier.
Yeah.
We're both just more whole human beings.
And I just, I come to that peace with him and all.
(45:00):
It's we live a peaceful life.
A chaotic life, but a peaceful life overall.
So time is slipping away.
There are some questions that I ask people towards the end.
But there's also one more question
on this topic of toxic relationships
I'd love to ask you.
So lately when I've been talking about toxic relationships,
(45:21):
I've been talking about looking at what you brought
to the relationship that contributed
to the toxic dynamics.
We talked about, dude, this cat is running around like crazy.
We talked about already that one piece of justifying red flags.
And I'm curious if there's maybe one or two more things
(45:42):
that you can share that you realize
you brought to the table, just so that people listening
can maybe do an inquiry and realize that it takes two
people to be in a toxic relationship.
And I think it's so easy to, this
is going to be a little long winded,
because now I'm having something else come,
like an example come to my mind.
(46:03):
It's so easy to see our ex as the problem.
And a good example is I was watching on YouTube,
you know that movie The Breakup with Vince Vaughn
and Jennifer Aniston?
They have it on YouTube for free.
And if you read the comments, one comment
really stood out to me that was like,
this is a great message for immature men
(46:25):
or something like that.
And I found it so interesting, because as a relationship
coach, when you watch the movie, and as someone
that's gone through learning from toxic relationships,
when you watch the movie, yes, you
see how Vince Vaughn's character is toxic.
But you can also see how Jennifer Aniston's character
is contributing to that and what she is doing,
(46:49):
like the expecting him to read her mind
and not being direct with the communication.
So yeah, that is my long-winded question.
Yeah, I think the biggest piece is
I didn't take any time to heal, like we talked about,
and a serious lack of communication.
(47:09):
And it was, I think, mostly out of fear,
because I didn't want to be single if I'm really
being honest with myself.
And I thought if I really communicated
how I felt and what I wanted, that they would leave.
And so I would suppress a lot of how I felt and not communicate,
because I was afraid of fighting.
So relatable.
(47:30):
Yeah, in the last relationship, when I communicated,
it turned into a blowout fight that just kind of always
got swept under the rug and never solved.
So then I stopped communicating, and I
stopped relying on that relationship
to be any sort of outlet for me.
But I also just so desperately wanted someone, ironically,
(47:53):
wanted someone so desperately to see me for who I was that I
think I also suppressed the things about me
that make me really, because again, I
didn't want to scare them off.
Whereas with RJ, again, because I didn't expect to date him,
it was what you see is what you get.
(48:14):
And he knew everything.
And I feel lucky that it turned into a relationship
and a marriage.
But with relationships, I always tampered myself down.
And I didn't show up as me 100%.
There was always parts that I would hide or things
I wouldn't talk about.
But I think communication is a big one.
(48:38):
I didn't want to ruffle their feathers, lack of healing,
and not being authentically me.
I've been there myself, too.
Thank you for sharing that.
So one of the questions I ask every guest at the end
is, what does self-love mean to you?
(48:58):
Prioritizing peace.
And it looks different all the time.
Sometimes me prioritizing peace means
that I need to work really hard and check a bunch of stuff
off from my to-do list, because that's
going to give me peace at the end of the day.
And sometimes that is reading on the couch with my husband
for five hours on a Sunday afternoon
and putting the to-do list away.
But it's prioritizing whatever version of peace I need.
(49:21):
I wouldn't even say that day.
It's in that moment.
What do I need that in the long term
is going to help me continue to live a more peaceful life?
I love that.
And what makes you feel the most grounded?
I think it's just the little moments with my husband
and my daughter and forcing myself to remember
what I have now.
(49:43):
Because it's so easy to slip into where I've been
and even those trauma responses of this could happen
or this could happen.
But cooking dinner as a family, sitting down together,
watching.
We're big hockey fans.
I'm a huge Colorado Avalanche fan.
My husband's a Boston Bruins fan.
We watched a lot of hockey in this house.
And being my daughter, get excited about hockey.
(50:05):
It's just being in that moment of this is what matters.
Is this family in this time and this space?
And this is what we're working for every single day.
I feel how grounding that feels.
And then what is your favorite part about being a woman?
Getting to be this fluidity between the masculine
and the feminine energy.
(50:26):
Getting to lean into what messages or signs
is the universe showing me.
But at the same time, having the more masculine energy
of the to-do lists and getting shit done
and being a balance of both of those.
And I think it's just a really unique, incredible experience.
But on top of that, and this just came to me,
this will be the first time I've ever said that,
is being a mom and getting in the world we live in.
(50:51):
Getting to help my daughter understand the good and the bad
and being a nurturing place for her,
but also providing the discipline and structure for her.
I think it's just as important.
But raising a daughter as a woman
is an incredibly special experience.
That I never wanted kids, side note,
(51:12):
absolutely never, ever, ever wanted kids.
And I feel like, again, the universe was like,
no, you want this.
And getting to experience the world through her eyes
as her mom is a very uniquely special experience.
Yeah, it sounds like a complete perspective shift as well,
like of the world.
(51:32):
Because you see that like every little girl
starts out like this.
They have some sort of relationship with mom
and that like sets her up for life.
Yeah, very interesting.
So for the people that have tuned in,
let us know where we can connect with you
and more about your work and all of that fun stuff.
(51:56):
Yeah, so I'm a creative strategist
and I'm also a yoga teacher,
but I help entrepreneurs take their big ideas
and turn them into reality.
I like to say that my why is that dopamine hits
just before someone's big idea comes to life,
their website being launched, their event,
or rebranding, whatever it may be.
So I help coach entrepreneurs through that process
(52:19):
while also offering services like websites,
social media, copywriting, and just general strategy.
But if you wanna connect about any of that
or also just as a human being,
my social media is honestly mostly about me
as a human and not me as a business owner.
My Instagram's probably the best way to find me
and that's life Jenn's way.
There's two N's on Jenn or my website is Jenn's way.
(52:42):
Cool, and I will put all those links in the show notes.
Thank you so much.
This was great.
It's been amazing.
Thank you so much.
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