Holly is a TEDx speaker, an award-winning author, and intuitive healer. Holly channels her life experiences into her writing and healing practices. In this conversation, we explore themes of aging, self-expression, the journey of personal identity, and how to navigate this all while having healthier relationships.
Holly shares some great insights on getting needs met in relationships and speaks specifically to how to do that as an introvert along with unique things needed within long-term relationships. Holly also shares her journey of breaking free from an emotionally abusive relationship and the subsequent self-discovery that followed while emphasizing the growth and lessons learned along the way.
Connect with Holly:
https://hollyhughesintuitive.com/
https://www.instagram.com/holly_hughes_intuitive/
Holly's Tedx talk: https://youtu.be/TdY-F8sb2G4?si=oVt6ASqo1Yfm56Xb
---
Watch this episode on YouTube: https://youtu.be/Be92eUzWAqc
--
Please support the show by following & reviewing us on whichever platform you're tuning in from!
Connect with Cilia, a certified relationship and female sexuality coach: https://selfexpressedbabe.com/ https://www.instagram.com/selfexpressedbabe/
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
a relationship, they only really work if you're either facing each other or you're facing
(00:04):
the same direction.
And in long-term relationships, you'll go through those rough times, but you can still
be honest during them.
That's the hard part.
(00:30):
Welcome to Openly Spoken, the podcast to help you show up, speak out, and be seen in healthy
relationships.
On this show, we talk about self-love, sexuality, relationship tips, including ending the cycle
of toxic relationships, and healing and thriving after heartbreak.
Hi, I'm your host Cilia, and I'm a certified sex, love, and relationship coach helping
(00:55):
ambitious women with a history of toxic relationships feel deeply connected in healthy love.
These are such important topics that every woman deserves, so if you could leave this
show a rating and a review on Apple podcasts or Spotify to help more women find this, it
would mean the absolute world to me.
Thank you so much for being here today.
(01:16):
Now let's dive into the show.
In today's podcast episode, we are discussing navigating the changing seasons of life within
(01:38):
body image, self-perception, and healthy relationships.
We explored the themes of aging, self-expression, the journey of personal identity, and how
to navigate all of this while having healthier relationships and nurturing the relationships
with people that you love.
I am joined today with my guest Holly, and Holly shares some of her great insights on
(02:04):
getting needs met in relationships and speaks specifically to how to do that as an introvert
along with unique things that are needed within long-term relationships.
And she also shares her journey of breaking free from an emotionally abusive relationship
and the subsequent self-discovery that followed while emphasizing the growth and the lessons
(02:26):
learned along the way.
Holly is a TEDx speaker, an award-winning author, and an intuitive healer.
You may have heard her voice on one of the hundreds of podcasts or networks that she's
contributed to.
I'm also going to link her TEDx talk below.
And withdrawing inspiration from her journey, Holly channels her life experience into her
(02:50):
writing and healing practices.
When she's not writing, speaking, or helping others live the life they dream about, you
may find her dancing, listening to K-pop, or planning her next trip to Seoul in South
Korea.
I hope that you enjoy this episode.
And don't forget to give us a rating and a review on Apple if you are listening on Apple
(03:12):
or on Spotify.
And if you are listening or watching on YouTube, don't forget to like and subscribe to support
the show.
Thank you so much.
And now let's dive in.
It was like I studied journalism.
(03:39):
That's what I went to this school for.
And studied journalism and history.
And I back in the day in the dark ages before Y2K, when I did a news report and interviewed
people, I had to find six sources, three and three with opposing views.
(04:00):
So you had to interview three people to get to see where the facts they agreed.
Right?
And not like talking points, but like, right?
And then three on the other side.
And in theory, even if you worked with someplace with a slight bias, you were really doing
your best to present information.
That's gone out the window nowadays.
(04:21):
It's very weird.
Yeah, I don't like that anymore.
Yeah, it's very drawing to notice that when you're not in the country and you're like,
is all our news propaganda?
What is it?
This is crazy?
It is crazy.
Yeah.
What's crazy is why do people empower whoever the they is?
Why do they want us to not get along?
(04:42):
How does that make you happy?
Whoever's in charge of the world right now, whatever, I call it a very low vibration dynamic,
right?
And you kind of keep having to try to go high.
And I'm like, okay, so everyone, what does that get you?
But if you move in the world, I bet when you were moving around, and I don't know where
(05:04):
you were because I wasn't a stalker of any kind, like in Europe, right?
When you are around other people, you actually see what we have in common.
Yeah, it's very beautiful.
I just don't know why culturally in America it is very okay to label so much to an extent
that you alienate the people you actually wanted to connect with.
(05:28):
Yeah, I know.
I don't know.
Thought of the day.
Yeah.
That's not what I thought we would talk about.
I know, but where do you want to go?
Let's do a hard laugh.
I do though think that it's very short-term gain thinking here.
(05:48):
Like whoever, like how you said, whoever they is, like why would they want us fighting?
I think they're thinking more of short-term gain.
Because one of the places I went was Switzerland.
And I don't know the society there.
Okay, one example is just the food, the butter.
(06:09):
I don't eat dairy in America, but I tried the butter there and I was like, this is so
good.
My stomach doesn't hurt.
And the bread, like just bread and butter, you feel nourished because it like has actual
nourishment in it.
It's made with pride.
It's very hard to do United States versus any other country that's not like Russia or
(06:31):
China and they're not run the same way.
Maybe they are.
But do you know what I'm saying?
Because we have so much diversity and they're mostly monocultures with like even if they
don't all look alike, mentality wise, they agree, right?
For the most part.
For sure.
Yeah.
Go get me started on that right now.
Yeah.
(06:52):
Right.
I'm just thinking that like it's a monoculture, but so everything they're trying to navigate
and control is on a smaller scale.
Even if it's-
Especially Switzerland.
It's such a small country.
Right.
But then I also went to Germany and Germany is much bigger, much more diverse.
I saw so much diversity in Germany, which was very nice.
(07:13):
But in Switzerland, you don't see like if I have one bad thing to say about Switzerland,
it's like anytime you see someone of color, they're like cleaning something.
They like don't have a good job from what I saw.
I'm sure that's not all of them, but like I saw a little bit of like, oh, it's not very,
I guess like equal.
(07:34):
It's not an American thought.
Yeah.
Yeah, for sure.
That's my whole point.
Like you like, right?
So I'm traveling, I traveled to Asia last year, I'm going back.
And you know, I'm a minority when I go there, which I walk around in spaces where I'm a
minority more often than other people probably because of the things that I'm interested
(07:54):
in.
And so it's very interesting the American ideal or the justice ideal, like everyone
deserves or life is about an even playing field.
Do you think we come on the planet for an even playing field?
I don't think so.
And so what?
So what?
Like my parents grew up poor.
So what?
(08:15):
Now they're like, you know, they worked hard.
So what like my thing is instead of what I see as a fully middle aged person is, okay,
so it wasn't fair.
So now what?
Are you going to whine about it?
Are you going to alienate everyone else around you and cry?
Or are you going to create community?
(08:38):
Are you going to do better?
Are you going to do the work?
Are you going to work harder?
I did.
So why can't you?
If you don't like it, get into a position of power where you can change things, but
not where then you go oppress and make the other people guilty.
That's the problem right now, right?
Like, okay, so it wasn't fair.
I used to always say when I was younger, why me?
(09:00):
Why me?
Like really, if you've seen like the stuff that's gone on in my life, right?
I know loss, like significant loss, lost my home to a fire, lost my home to an earthquake,
alcoholic father.
Like, you know, I have miscarriages.
I have like changed careers, move across the country.
I like significant loss.
(09:22):
And you can either wallow in it or you can make a choice to have a better, to do better
for yourself.
And what's your idea?
Like what is it that makes you happy?
That's what I love working with people with, right?
Like all right, so if you want to be real, not perfect, which is my thing, and you are
(09:45):
in a transition point in your life.
The thing about maturing is, okay, so you have these emotions, you have to process it.
You just don't have to sit in the rage or the tantrum or the mantrum or the unfairness
of it all, right?
Because remember like when they did the whole matrix and they made it fair, people didn't
(10:08):
work.
I don't know, I guess we need some sort of thing.
I think many artists come from an emotional place to share their art, to express themselves.
And sometimes I think they express things for other people.
They see the world differently.
I don't want to see the world the same way someone who's just an accountant, who doesn't
(10:28):
know what it's like to dance, who doesn't know what it's like to be a writer, who like
I find those people fascinating and I couldn't be that.
I would feel so oppressed by that.
So I think like when people keep talking about standards or this is fair or that's equity,
right?
Are we supposed to be or are we supposed to be challenged by each other to grow?
(10:54):
I think like that mentality is like what I prefer you in a transition point in your life.
Okay, I made all these choices.
I don't like X, Y, and Z. I have to process my rage not being seen, not being heard and
how do I process that?
And then what does that mean as a human?
And how do I affect my community by doing whatever that I'm doing or however I'm doing
(11:17):
it?
Do I want to uplift?
Do I want to disrupt?
I don't know.
Like those are things that like I love those kinds of conversations.
Okay, yeah.
But I think a lot of people are just like, it's not fair.
Right?
That's what it looks like for all those Gen Xers, right, like to watch a lot of that.
(11:41):
Yes.
Like, how mature are you and what are you doing to handle that situation?
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I feel like that's a good transition until like what we wanted to talk about is, you
know, like inner child healing, mother wounds, father wounds.
And you just mentioned like a lot of Gen Xers will, you know, just be like, well, I feel
(12:07):
like there used to be such a, I guess, bad connotation around therapy and like working
on your stuff or even like crying.
Maybe not for women, but like for men, obviously there's like that, you know, boys don't cry
old saying thing.
(12:32):
And really like, you can really notice when someone, when an adult is just like an adult
walking around in a grown up body, but like they're still a child because they haven't
processed these certain emotions.
So they're like stuck in these, like emotionally they're stuck in the age of a child.
(12:56):
Yeah.
I like to say like, I think, I mean, I was a hot mess in my twenties.
Like I'm not going to deny it.
I didn't, I hadn't individuated.
I had, I didn't understand how much I was shoving down because I had to be positive.
I had to be excellent at work.
(13:16):
I had to stand on my own.
I had to prove to everyone that I could do it.
And I was using that, I didn't understand it was anger because I didn't want to be angry
because my father was super angry and I never wanted to be like that.
But it was the realization that I had a rage and all this pain that I never articulated
(13:39):
because it wasn't the thing we did back in the day.
And I didn't have the words to express it, nor did I thought I could handle it.
I didn't want to burden anyone, my family, anyone, because I could handle it better than
them.
Oh my God, how at 15 do you tell your parents that you were assaulted in the house?
(14:00):
Right?
Like I get goosebumps even thinking about me at that time thinking that my sweatshirt
that dipped over my shoulder was the reason that happened.
Oh man.
Yeah.
It's wild how we gaslight ourselves.
Right?
It's because I just thought I had more control because growing up in my environment, you
(14:23):
have to control what's around you and not like, I was like, let me make it better.
So at one point when I was getting divorced, because of course I picked a horrible person
and I thought if I loved him enough, I can make him happy.
He was artistic and I didn't value any of my own artistic abilities.
Right?
(14:43):
And I was like, as at work, and this woman came up to me and she's like, Hey, do you
know that every day at three o'clock you cry?
And I was like, bitch, what are you saying to me?
Because I was her boss, right?
I was like, what are you doing?
(15:04):
What are you talking about?
Wow.
Like every day at three, you cry.
I think you probably need some therapy.
And she's like, this is who I go to and I'm like, I don't think I like you.
What are you doing?
And I took the card and I was pissed.
Like I knew I had to be offended, but I didn't pray.
And then I was like, what is she talking about?
I am a happy person.
(15:25):
Right?
Like whatever.
Three o'clock that afternoon, I walked into the bathroom and I was crying and I had completely
disassociated.
I didn't even feel it.
How crazy is that?
So I called that woman and it was like, it took me almost nine months, she told me in
hindsight to actually say anything that wasn't protecting everyone around me.
(15:50):
Right?
So when I watch younger women doing that or fighting these big battles because really
they have an internal battle, I want them to surrender the fight and feel the pain.
(16:14):
And you don't have to have experienced the horrible things that I did to have your wounds.
You could have needed love and support that your parents were just not capable of giving
you.
Right?
And that's almost all of the population because our society isn't really set up to support
parents to meet their child's needs.
(16:36):
It's just set up to like go back to work ASAP.
Fascinating.
I don't find that.
I find the opposite right now.
Really?
I think children.
Yeah.
I'm like on some of these parenting boards and people are like, oh, my daughter coughed
and got her period today.
(16:56):
So I'm going to keep her home from school.
Well, what does that teach her?
Right?
I think we're breeding narcissists because we're making learning how to overcome or face
a challenge or get through discomfort.
We're taking that away from our children.
(17:18):
We're not letting them fail on the small things so they can learn frustration and they can
learn they can get up and try again.
And that is a life skill.
So when these young adults come to me and they're like all they are are these raw emotions
(17:39):
without the process, right?
Then there's a lot of like blaming, but you're the adult now.
Yeah.
What are you going to do about it?
Yeah.
I'm going to ask my parents to make it all better.
And then I find some of the parents are way too enmeshed.
They're like married emotionally to their children.
(18:01):
Yeah, that's not good.
And that's not fair on the kid.
And that's not right of the adult.
Right?
I think I posted yesterday about like I got on the mama's boy side a TikTok.
Oh no.
I've only seen, I'm not on TikTok so I haven't seen that, but I've seen there's this Facebook
group all about boy moms.
(18:24):
And it's like they post cringe things they find on social media like dressing up their
son as Spider-Man and hanging him upside down and like kissing him on the lips.
And it's like, oh my gosh, what are you doing?
That's crazy.
That's crazy.
Being, yeah, no, it was like, you know, one guy brought his mom on a date, working with
(18:48):
his girlfriend, were together for three years and she's like, I either want to ring on it
or what are we doing?
That's what the mom said?
Then the mom came and it was like, why are you pressuring him?
He's not ready.
Oh, I thought the mom was asking for a ring.
I was like, what?
Yeah, I know.
I was like, I need to call my mom.
(19:08):
You're so rude.
I don't know.
It's just like so crazy.
So I think like, like I have a teenager and parenting is, was a choice I made to become
a parent.
I really waited a long time.
I waited, right?
And then choosing to be at home, right?
(19:29):
That's not a choice a lot of people can make, but I have, I, we made other choices based
on that.
Right?
And so people will be like, oh, you haven't gone on vacation a long time.
Like, well, so I don't know.
I like who I'm raising.
I like who they are.
I like their sass.
I like that they know their value and self-worth and that their body dysmorphia is not mine.
(19:53):
Do you know what I'm saying?
Like that I am not taking that divine feminine rap load of toxicity and giving it to another
girl.
Like I'm, that's like one of, that was one of my main goals to not like do that.
What does that mean?
You said divine feminine crap load toxicity.
(20:14):
Like what is that?
Like my body dysmorphia is wonderfully healed as I can be.
I still have it.
And so when I was younger and I was a dancer, I'm a, I'm a very hourglass figure.
That is not a dancer.
Well, it wasn't back in the day.
Right?
I didn't know hip hop.
(20:35):
So it was like ballet and jazz.
You know what I'm saying?
Modern was like, so I take hip hop classes now, but, but fun.
So I used to take those in middle school.
So I am the oldest one in the room and I don't care.
I think that like that my teacher telling me that my ass was too big, that my thighs
(20:56):
were too big.
I'm like, and I see pictures of me as a kid.
I was tiny, but in my head I was huge.
Yeah.
Because of what you were hearing from around you.
Yeah.
I think girls are also, you know, more primed for body dysmorphia because of media in general.
And like the beauty standard is constantly changing and shifting and always has like
(21:20):
since the beginning of time.
Yeah.
There's so much more inclusivity now.
Like we just, I wouldn't sell a play.
I think I took my daughter to see Mean Girls.
Oh, that's good.
I've seen the play version.
Yeah.
It's really good.
It's definitely way more inclusive than the movie.
The movie's really racist.
I watched it recently and I'm like, whoa, this will be canceled if it came out now.
(21:43):
No, everyone needs to like, I want people not to take this the wrong way, but lighten
the fuck up.
Well, one of your, it's called Satire.
It's supposed to take that, right?
It's SNL.
It's like mostly SNL people.
Right.
It's like when I watched the play and then there were dancers of like different sizes
who were so good.
(22:03):
I'm like, he's a part of me.
I didn't even know I needed, and I'm picky because if I'm watching a professional dancer,
you need to be good.
Right.
So yeah.
And just like, Oh, look at that.
Look at that.
If I saw that, I wouldn't have believed her.
You know, being assaulted also like at 15 changes you anyway.
So like I had to deal with that, but I just, I don't, if you look in the mirror, what I
(22:28):
see and then when I see a picture of me, the picture looks a hundred percent different
to me than what I see in the mirror.
Even though?
Oh yeah.
I know that's crazy.
Right?
Yeah.
I'm not a big person.
I know that.
Like I'm not like, I don't, but I see my, I still see myself bigger.
Yeah.
And it's just because of all like, you know, 25 years of someone telling me not enough.
(22:53):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I'm sure you're not alone, so I'd love to know like, what do you do to kind of, um,
keep yourself in check of like, Oh, this is just, you know, a thing that isn't actually
true when I see myself as like really big or like my, there's something wrong with my
body.
Yeah.
I think that what I do is I either start the day or end the day in gratitude and I literally
(23:20):
say, Oh my God, thank you for this body.
I am in this body and today it helped me dance.
Right.
And or it helped me express myself or, um, it really depends on the kind of mode.
Like I don't, I don't see myself as like overweight, whatever that is.
(23:44):
You know, I also lived in LA for almost 20 years and like in the nineties and early two
thousands where lollipop heads were the thing, so your head had to be the biggest part of
your body.
So double zero was the size and I was like a six, eight.
I grew up in LA too.
Right.
So that was fat.
(24:04):
Yeah.
That's absurd.
I remember feeling fat too, when I was like a double zero.
And I remember for the, I remember honestly being 11 and having this memory of realizing
I was breathing into my belly and like training myself to breathe into my chest so that I
could keep my belly sucked in at 11 because I was living in LA and you know, early two
(24:30):
thousands, um, like the belly button rings were all the rage and flat tummies and yeah.
That was like the Paris Hilton era.
It was like the skinny low rise.
Oh, there was low rise.
Oh God, the low rises.
Yeah.
I used to wear leggings under the low rise.
I don't want to forget, you know, I'm just saying.
So I'm still not there.
(24:51):
I mean, I think they tried to bring low rise jeans back.
I don't know if that was successful, but I remember I've been taking a break off of social
media, so I don't know what's happening there right now.
I'm really only on my Facebook sometimes, but I remember maybe about a year ago, all
these like memes on Instagram about low rise jeans coming back.
(25:12):
I don't think they have.
I just bought a bunch of super high rise because after that, I'm just saying.
I think that, I think like again, it has to be about loving who you are.
So when I, when my daughter was younger and I would be like, baby girl, what's your favorite
thing about yourself today?
(25:32):
She looked at me and she was like a toddler.
She goes, my tummy, because it helps me taste all the yummy food.
I was like, that's so nice.
Right?
Like when was the last time you did that?
I think was on, I'm not really on Facebook.
I'm mostly on Instagram.
Valerie Bertinelli posted an image of her, like I don't know if it was a bikini or her
(25:52):
bra and underwear.
And she, I was like, oh my God, a real body, a real body.
Cause she's in her sixties.
So like whatever.
So like I'm in a place where aging is catching up to me and you're like, oh, I'm still the
same on the inside.
Your body makes a lot more noises now and you're like, right?
(26:14):
You're not like what, what is going on?
So I have enough vanity to stay healthy.
I, if I eat unhealthy, I feel gross.
So I'm, that's the thing for me.
I'm not a really big drinker.
So like, I don't really have those vices that other people rely on or need.
(26:34):
And again, if you need that, then you're filling a wound with outside things.
And I say you're also avoiding feeling something.
Yeah.
You're numbing.
Yeah.
And I promise you, you can feel the feeling and survive it.
I promise you.
Yes.
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's my thing.
(26:55):
I think, yeah, bodies are funny.
And I think women are not, are still not really allowed to age gracefully, right?
Men get dashing men are this or that, but like women were still, were like, you have
to be, I saw this other woman.
She's amazing.
I don't know her name, but she's a little older than me.
(27:15):
She's in her later fifties and she's still dresses like I still like to dress, right?
So she's like dressed and she's like, I have gray hair and I have these spots on my face.
And she's like, I don't tell me to dress my age.
I dress how I feel and how I express myself.
But she's like, don't tell me to age gracefully or I have to be sexy either.
(27:35):
Like what, like what are we like, what's that message?
But what does dress your age mean?
There's no store where it's like, here's the store for women over 50.
Like that doesn't like forever 51.
Like that doesn't exist.
That would be hysterical.
How am I taking that one?
I think I don't want to name the brand, but there are definitely some brands that would
(27:58):
be more comfort clothing.
You're wrong.
I got my cute sweat sets, right?
Like I'm all for the like hanging, like today it's freezing by me.
Like a hole in a giant sweater.
And I love that look.
I don't know.
I think it's again, like who are you?
And it doesn't have to be a level playing field.
Those of you are a little prefer simple or not to stand out, that's great, but hot pink
(28:22):
is my favorite color.
So I'll say it.
I used to live in New York and there was this lady there who you would see her on the subway
sometimes in Brooklyn.
I think she was like in her eighties.
She might still be living.
I don't know, but she's always dressed in all green.
And her Instagram is like the green lady or something like that.
(28:45):
And when she posts photos in her house, like her apartment is all green inside and it's
just like, that's like her thing.
She just dresses in all green.
I think her hair is dyed green as well.
Wow.
Maybe.
Come into the hard chakra right there.
Yeah.
Just green.
Yeah.
But I feel like it's for me, I feel like I see that the women being allowed to age,
(29:12):
at least from my perspective, seems to be changing.
I saw a photo of Julia Roberts recently and she's allowing herself to be gray.
She's not doing fillers and stuff like that.
I feel like it exists if you look for it, that there's also this woman on Instagram
(29:32):
named midlife muse or something.
Okay.
Her, I was going to say channel, her page is really good.
It's definitely like, you know, men definitely do get more.
They always have.
It's always been like, oh my God, he's a silver Fox, George Clooney.
But I feel like it's slowly shifting where like women are allowed to age.
(29:56):
I think women in general, we go through different changes because you are supposed to be beautiful
and to attract your partner, right?
Whatever that is for you, right?
That could be, there's a thousand different tastes.
Go do that.
If you choose to become a mother, motherhood changes you.
(30:19):
You shift.
You have to be less selfish in order to raise a person, right?
In theory.
And I think also when you become a new mom, I know for me, I went from producing film
and TV to having an infant, right?
I mean, I used to tell 250 people what to do on a day to day basis, negotiate with like
(30:43):
sag and like, you know, and then I was like alone and invisible and covered in spit.
It messes with you because you are not who you were, but the work of life is well, who
are you now?
How do you support who you are now?
Now, how many years do you want to be this person?
(31:06):
Or is this how you want to be?
Is this what you thought you had to be?
Is this what society or your family told you how you had to do it?
But how do you want to do it?
Those are the questions that a lot of people don't ask that I live in that space, right?
I'm, you know, don't put me in a box.
I'll smash it and dance on top of it, right?
(31:28):
How are you going to do your 30s?
How are you going to do your 40s?
Your 40s are spectacular.
I mean, I was in the best shape of my life in my 40s.
It was crazy.
And all I wanted to do was have another baby and I was super skinny.
Now we go back to the skinny thing.
I was like, I don't need this number on the scale is crazy.
I would have done anything in LA to be that weight.
(31:48):
And all I want to be is like big and round and under 65 pounds now.
Like I just want to be a belly.
That sounds like progress.
No, I'm not judging you.
I'm just saying when I'm pregnant, that was my big weight.
I think that then like I'm in my 50s, right?
And then those little cracks start coming in and you're like, how do I want to do this?
(32:12):
And how am I?
And how do you want to be?
So some days I'm super introverted.
I'm really reclusive.
I'm in my comfy clothes and I am with a book or writing or I'm inside.
And then Saturday and Tuesdays and Thursdays I am in a room with people much younger than
(32:34):
me shaking it.
You know what I'm saying?
Like I take this K-pop dance class.
I love it because I like K-pop.
And I walk into the room and there's like, they look nine or 12.
They look so young.
There's kids in there.
There's like people in their 20s and 30s and then me.
(32:57):
I think there's like another woman, but I'm pretty sure she's in her 40s.
I don't think she has any idea how old I am.
And I'm there to hit it.
I'm going to hit it hard.
I also think the younger people don't care.
Like I have a lot of friends who are older than me.
I don't think they care, but it does take bravery to walk in.
As the oldest person.
Yeah.
(33:18):
No, but what I mean is the younger people, they don't think like, oh, there's an old
person here.
Oh yeah.
But I have friends who are older than me and I never think twice about their age.
I'm never like, ah, they're so old or something like that.
I know.
Especially if they have like a joie de vivre.
(33:38):
I think it's about finding what you like or you're curious about.
I think one of the really other good ways to like even do exploring if you're stuck
or not.
If you have a feeling you don't know what that feeling is and you're not ready to ask
for some sort of help, go try something that you used to love as a kid that you might not
(34:01):
do anymore or try something utterly and completely new that you know you'll be terrible.
And don't judge it because I'm not asking you to sell it.
Everything in America right now is you have to monetize every part of your life.
You need to have 7 million followers and you need to make money on every social media platform
if you don't, you're a failure.
No.
(34:21):
I think like I would turn the camera and make you laugh but I bought at Michael's there
was a little crochet kit.
It was for like an octopus.
It's a squid.
I'll call it a squid.
And my family's like, you can't do that.
And I did, I made it and he's funny looking and I liked it so much I went made another
one and that one's super wobbly.
But I don't care.
(34:41):
I went and bought watercolors.
I got on watercolor TikTok and I was just like trying to paint a chicken.
Squid is the funniest looking chicken.
But it took me a little time and it was like fun and it was like new and it made my brain
work.
I'm like trying to learn Korean.
(35:02):
I gave up again but I do.
That's hard.
Yeah.
So hard.
You speak in a very different place and I can hear the words but they don't come out
of my mouth the way I hear them.
Different tongue placement.
Yeah.
Different like their vowels and they do a lot of things with like your tongue between
(35:23):
your teeth.
So you have to speak at the very front of your mouth.
I was talking to a woman the other day.
She was Peruvian and I was telling her when I was in Korea, all my Spanish came back which
was very annoying because I had studied Korean for months.
I was like, Como?
I was like, no, that's the wrong language.
Spanish is definitely more back of the mouth.
(35:45):
Yeah.
I think that's why they smile a lot in their cultures.
They're like happy.
She was like, oh, she spoke Spanish on the front too.
I was like, that's fascinating.
But see, if I woke up on Thanksgiving, did I think I'd be sitting next to someone with
a family from Peru speaking about language?
(36:08):
That's the magic in life.
Yeah.
Going to Korea with this topic of aging, because I know in the East they see older
people more as like with wisdom or at least that's what they say here.
Is that true?
Does your perspective on aging shift when you spend time in South Korea?
(36:29):
That is fascinating.
What I really enjoyed was I traveled solo.
I left my family behind.
I joined a tour and I was very prepared the first time I went to be other.
I'd seen the people who had been on the tours before.
That doesn't really bother me, but they look like groups of girlfriends or friends and
(36:52):
they looked in their 30s.
I was like, they'll probably want to go out.
I'm very married and that's not what I'm there for.
I was not looking for my mystery oppa or I just see like now.
So I was prepared for that, but instead I made like four women friends from all over
(37:16):
the planet.
They were 28 to 32 and I felt like I was at a slumber party every day.
I giggled.
How nice.
I felt hard all day long.
So now I have one of my friends who's in Boston and we have Luxembourg, Poland and Denmark.
Very nice.
(37:36):
That was from Peru, which is so strange, right?
How many people from Peru did you meet in a year?
Two.
Just this weird.
Then we just all giggled because we were curious about the same things and they were all solo
traveling too.
Now we're all meeting in May.
(37:56):
We're going to meet back up.
Oh nice.
How fun.
They know I have no sense of direction and they are like, I really don't.
And like north has to be up and east has to be to my right.
If it's not to my right, I have to turn my body until it is because I have like no sense
of direction.
But being there and being with these younger people, we were on the subway one day and
(38:22):
my friend Sarah is super petite.
She's like maybe five foot.
And I'm five five, so you know, super tiny.
Young early thirties and she walked in, I guess, and she kind of got bumped, right?
She's really unheard of there, right?
They have different spatial things and there are seats on a subway car and they are different
(38:43):
colors and some of them are pink and those are for pregnant people.
And I think it's orange if I'm remembering correctly.
Orange seats are for older people.
And it was kind of crowded.
And there was an older woman, like she looked older, dark gray hair, whatever.
And she like had a mask on.
She's being very whatever.
And she looked at me, but I didn't know she had just bashed my friend Sarah in her shoulder
(39:09):
and sat down.
And she was calling me to sit near her because she knew that I was old enough to be in the
seat, right?
And she's like, no.
And she's like, her eyes were twinkling.
She was like so sweet to me, right?
Eventually I sat down because it was crowded and I was tired.
But I waited until like if anyone else needed it, right, kind of thing.
(39:33):
So I think when I travel, because I would be an ajumma.
Ajumma is a middle-aged woman, usually older ajumma in South Korea.
Or nunna, which is older sister like for men.
Or unni is older sister for girls.
So they have very hierarchical culture, right?
(39:54):
So I am older.
So I got, it was fine for me.
It was really even with my bad Korean.
I was trying.
I think when you try, just like any other place I've ever traveled, when I try to meet
and be in a space that is your space and I am a guest, I'm going to be respectful of
(40:16):
your rule.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So I had, yeah.
I knew it was hilly, but it's like Santa Monica Mountains hilly.
Oh wow.
It's over.
There's like really the only places that are flat, like especially in Busan, which is in
South Korea, is where the Japanese leveled it when they were doing horrible things there.
(40:40):
So they literally leveled things to make it flat.
Oh wow.
It's crazy when you start learning that.
Yeah, no, I got along just fine.
When I travel in general though, people claim me.
Like we're friends now.
Yeah, I mean like when I was like traveling in France, they think, they often think I'm
(41:02):
French Canadian, which just, I don't even know.
That just cracks me up.
My French is awful.
I guess that a lot too, because when I tell someone that like I have a green card and
I'm an immigrant, they're like, oh, you're Canadian because I don't have like any kind
of accent.
So they just like assume I'm from Canada.
(41:23):
That's awesome.
In Italy, they think I'm Italian, like do you know, like I just blend.
But it's because I'm going to learn what's normal and expected and culturally appropriate.
Yeah, and I think most Americans don't do that.
What I found surprising is like even for me, even when I like try to be quiet, people say
(41:49):
that Americans are loud, but I think it's because other cultures are very, very quiet.
They're more private.
They're more private.
Yeah, because I don't consider myself a loud person here in America, but when I was in
Switzerland, I was considered loud.
Like you can tell.
I had a chush on the bus, me and my girlfriend started giggling in Korea and there's no sound.
(42:11):
Like they're very silent.
They're very quiet.
Yeah, you can like, you can talk this loud, but you don't talk louder.
Like you whisper and you lean over.
And I don't know, I don't know what made it.
I mean, like I told you, we giggled 24 seven and I have a loud laugh, right?
And I tend, like when I laugh that hard, like even thinking about it, I don't even know
(42:32):
what was so funny.
Like I like one of those laughs, right?
And I'm like, and someone shushed, sorry.
I felt bad.
I felt really bad.
But then I giggled harder.
Then we got off the bus.
So I was like, no, that's appropriate because that's their rule.
Yeah.
That seems to be a rule in most countries so far that are outside of the US.
(42:58):
Like that's true in Germany.
It's true in Switzerland.
It's true in Japan, South Korea, but I haven't been.
Japan's got a whole other, I don't know.
It's got a whole list of other stuff.
I'm going to be there for a day.
Oh, you're going there just for one day?
Yeah.
It is very close to South Korea.
(43:19):
Are you doing like a layover or something?
It's a ferry.
Oh, okay.
It's a four hour ferry.
We're going to go to Fuku, something.
And then spend the day, see a couple things and get back on the boat and go back.
I wouldn't do that in my real life.
Like that's way too much, but like I'm there for a short amount of time, so I push.
(43:41):
Yeah.
Okay.
I eat it all up.
Yeah.
I think that's all about what life is, right?
Like I need to stimulate my senses.
And if my introvert injures too much, is that good?
Yeah.
So for people listening who are introverted and who resonate with some of the things we
(44:06):
talked about in the beginning, like the body dysmorphia and kind of like needing to process
emotions, why would you encourage those people to travel?
I think there are many options to honor who you are and not feel alone.
(44:32):
Yeah.
Right?
So there's plenty of groups and things you can do research online before you start.
Like what I love about my girlfriends is they know I won't share a room because I am not
a morning person.
(44:53):
And I'm also married and have a family, so I want to check in with my family and I want
to do that alone.
I want a bathroom alone.
Like I just don't really, for the first week and a half that we're traveling together,
I probably will share, but when I start the other tour, I won't.
Like I just won't.
(45:13):
But when I first met everyone, I think there were eight people total on the tour, I said,
please don't be offended when I don't speak in the morning because I'm just really quiet
and it takes me time to warm up.
(45:33):
And another woman in the, I don't want to say everyone's names, another woman in the
tour, she was like, meh.
So what would happen is every morning before we started walking to wherever we were headed,
she and I would be to the side of the group, not speaking, but together.
(45:54):
Sitting together.
Everyone was high, big and loud and talking about what was going to happen next.
You can find the way you need to do it and then do it.
I also hit a wall usually around three or four in the afternoon and I also need to regroup
then and now my friends are all like, so we know you need some privacy, so when we're
(46:18):
doing a lonely letter, just give us a signal.
See what I'm saying?
So if you just ask for what you need, it shouldn't really be too much for people to give.
And if it is, then don't travel with those people.
You need to make your own accommodation.
What I know I need is not your problem.
(46:41):
So I'll just handle it.
I don't need to make a scene or a noise about it, but it is really good to take care of
yourself that way.
And you can do things quietly.
I love museums.
I'm a huge fan of art and I think it tells the story of people's history through their
(47:02):
expression in a way that how could I possibly know?
How could I possibly know what that's like?
How could I possibly know that you only had ink?
What was that like?
That's where my brain goes, right?
So they were bored.
So they were outside in the cafe at this one museum.
(47:22):
And for me, when I see a piece of art that is 20 feet by 20 feet, right, is massive,
no I'm going to stand there for a little bit.
Same.
I like to also go up real close and see each individual brushstroke and just be like, wow,
it's just a collection of individual brushstrokes that created this huge thing.
(47:49):
Yeah.
There was this mountain painting, what city?
I think we were in Gyeongju.
Was it Gyeongju?
Maybe.
But there was this smaller art museum and they were very particular which way you walked
through it.
There were arrows, there were people pointing, like don't mess, you had to follow the rules.
I'm like, okay.
(48:09):
So we came into this room and it literally was like half the room.
And they popped their head in and walked out and I'm like, no, I'll be here.
I'll see you upstairs.
Peace out.
Because to me, the vision to do that, to express that, what's hidden in that, I don't know.
(48:33):
For me, it's all of the above.
So I felt that way even when I was in Spain and there was an artist I had seen back in
the day when there were magazines.
And Cecily Brown, so you probably may be, people nowadays would be like, you only see
it on your phone.
And then walking in and seeing that it was 24 feet by 16 and I just broke down in tears.
(48:54):
I was like, this is so much more than I thought it was.
And it was part of my honeymoon actually.
My husband loves architecture and I like art.
He's like, are you going to be in here for a while?
I was like, yes.
Yes, I am.
I'll be outside looking at the building.
That's exactly what he did.
I just sat in this room startled because I'd only seen them inches and it was so much bigger.
(49:19):
And she has many layers.
There's quite a lot of eroticism in her art.
Well, then it was, I don't know about now.
So it looks like you're looking at this crazy kind of jungle thing.
But if you keep looking, you realize the layers on top are people.
And then you're like, whoa.
No, I love that.
(49:42):
And I think being a creative person, it's inspiring.
Yeah, I agree.
Yeah.
And also, if you're an introvert, just start your day the way you need.
Yeah.
And know that you're allowed to do that and it's okay to do that and you're not being
rude.
Yeah.
(50:03):
Like I said, I thought they might be going to clubbing or bars at night and then I would
just crash.
But they really weren't those kind of people.
And for me, I didn't know if I would ever get back to Asia.
So for me, I like to spend every moment of every day where I was see like just taking
(50:23):
it all in.
Uh-huh.
Yeah.
I'm glad you get to go back.
I can't wait.
I have to count down on my phone.
152 more days before I go.
Wow.
Yeah, you're really counting down.
Yeah.
But I get it.
That's how I feel about Germany.
I want to go back.
Do you really?
(50:43):
Like what was the thing that made you go there?
I was born there.
Okay.
And my mom and I moved here when I was a toddler and just overstayed our visa.
So this was my first time being able to go back in like 32 years.
Wow.
I just got my green card this year.
So that was why I went.
Like, do you know, like when I have one favorite German word.
(51:08):
You have a favorite German word.
Do you speak German at all?
Yeah, I do.
Morgan Muffle.
Morgan Muffle?
I don't know what that is.
It basically is don't talk to me till I'm done with my coffee.
No, it's just like, I'm not a morning person basically is what it means.
Not a yeah.
Morgan Muffle.
Interesting.
You don't have to double check it.
(51:29):
Maybe I've been saying it wrong.
I was wondering if you would say Eichhörnchen, which is, uh, it's just like a, it sounds
funny to say, but it just means squirrel.
Eichhörnchen.
No, Morgan Muffle.
There's, I follow a content guy is a, he's German.
He's like, ah, your German word of the day is Eichhnepp, whatever he'll say.
(51:50):
I was like, ah, your German word of today is Morgan Muffle.
This means a person who's not very happy in the morning and prefers that you leave them
alone.
I was like, no, you're like, that's me.
I feel so seen.
I feel so seen.
Yeah.
I feel so seen.
Let's see.
Yeah.
I'm not nice if you start talking to me either.
I mean, to my family, if a stranger, I would be perfectly polite-ish, but like, yeah, what
(52:15):
part of you know me forever that you know?
Yeah.
Also, even with my daughter, I had to make sure I let her know that my mood is not because
of her.
She can't fix it.
And it's just me warming up in the morning.
I just need to warm up.
Yeah.
(52:35):
Yeah, I think that's very healthy to teach your kids.
Yeah.
Because-
Someone's reaction to what you need to say can hurt you.
It can be surprising, but it's not your job to fix it, correct it, or make it easier sometimes.
Yeah.
And I think those foundational things, learning it from your parent really helps you in the
(53:01):
future when you have your own friendships and relationships.
Yeah.
Romantic relationships.
Yeah.
Learning to speak what you need, because I think so much of life is figuring it out.
Yeah.
Yeah.
What do I need?
How do I want to be?
(53:22):
What is important to me?
Right?
Like if you told me like 10 years ago the things that I love and am interested in now,
I probably would have been like crack smoker.
No.
What are you talking about?
You're so weird.
I would be like, yes, I am.
It's fine.
You did mention earlier that you were in a relationship and like it wasn't the right
(53:45):
one.
I'm curious what for you was, since I like to talk about relationships on this podcast,
what was the like pivotal learning or aha moment or thing that you think helped you
have healthier relationships?
I think for me, so interesting.
(54:08):
So I had a starter marriage, right?
That's what I call it.
What is that?
I got married.
Is that when you get married when you're like in your 20s?
Yes.
23 to 28.
Okay.
We lived together.
We moved in together like a month after I met him.
The reason why I decided to date him is I fit in his pants.
(54:29):
You told me about this, like you had the same pant size.
He was super tall and skinny.
I was like, there's no way I fit in those pants.
When I did, I was like, oh, I guess I'm staying.
I mean, they're the dumbest choice.
So weird.
So yeah, I mean, we have growth in our lives is all I'm saying.
So I was 23.
(54:50):
I thought he was super artistic.
I met him on a set.
He was an art director.
He was getting divorced.
He was seven years older and I just thought he was everything I wasn't.
And then he was actually emotionally and mentally abusive, but because I had grown up with an
addict parent, he was too.
(55:14):
So he's what I was used to even though I didn't like it.
There came a point where I realized I had given up everything and my therapist explained
it in a way where he picked at me for five years until I was like nothing left.
And then I called his mother who I'd like to tell everyone on our wedding day told me
(55:35):
I didn't have to do it.
Oh, wow.
And she wore white and I was like, what are you doing?
Like it was so crazy.
Like I think she was definitely trying to warn me and help me, but her way was not good.
So when I decided to leave him, I told her, I called her, I was like, I can't do it anymore.
Like there's nothing.
She's like, no, I understand.
(55:56):
She was so nice.
Like it was crazy.
We separated and then I was single.
I mean like I dated and messed around, but I wasn't really in a relationship for years
and I had to like fill all my own holes and I had to realize that I couldn't be a workaholic
and I couldn't not be creative and I had to stop giving everything that I was away.
(56:20):
Like loving someone.
Like this is one of my Holly's healing tips, which is giving is good, but giving yourself
away isn't.
And I had to learn not to do that.
And then I can't deal with a liar.
Like you lie to me, I'm pretty much done.
(56:40):
Like just if you don't tell me the truth and you don't let me make a choice of what I can
manage or not manage.
Like I don't this like it's a whole thing for me.
So in my earlier thirties, I realized like really what it was that I wanted in relationship
(57:01):
that I think the world will hand you chaos that you need someone that you can really
speak plainly to.
A relationship is never 50-50.
They only really work if you're either facing each other or you're facing the same direction.
And in long-term relationships, right?
(57:22):
Cause mine's over 20 years is that you'll go through those rough times, but you can
still be honest during them.
That's the hard part.
I think knowing that when it gets hard, you have to put in the work or pause.
(57:43):
Those are things I don't think people really discuss.
My kind of relationship isn't the kind of relationship my mother needs, nor will it
be the kind that my daughter needs.
I love like a cat.
I am like all sweet and cuddles and like, oh, love you, love you, love you.
Let me bite you and scratch you a little bit.
I'm there.
(58:04):
And then leave me in the hell alone.
And then I'll be back, right?
But I'm communicative.
I don't cut you off.
I'm not gaslighting you.
I'm not negating and I'm not cold.
It's just that introvert or that creative part of me also needs attention.
And so that is how it works for me.
(58:27):
I think relationships have to mature too.
I'm teaching my own child that you can play house in your twenties, but don't get married.
Because I want you to go out in the world and try three careers.
I want you to travel if you can.
(58:47):
I want you to figure out who you are and what you want and what you don't like and who are
you not in my house?
And who are you and what is your house like and what do you need your house like?
I need my house to be comfortable, right?
My mother needs her house to be beautiful, right?
There's a difference, right?
(59:09):
In like aesthetic.
I mean, I like my own taste.
I have art everywhere.
Like why do you have all this art?
I'm like I was single a long time.
I bought art.
It's what mattered to me, right?
I don't have, I'm not a stuff kind of person.
Like but I like art.
Like I don't know.
I think that is what you should do.
(59:30):
And then in your thirties, you find someone who sees the world in a way that supports
you and vice versa.
My husband and I go about the world very differently, but he's my champion, right?
(59:52):
I don't know if you ever saw us in a room.
First of all, he's six foot five.
He's a giant, right?
If you saw us, I don't know that you would put us together just by like that kind of
thing and how he moves around in the world that way.
But we were, but we're super honest.
So when my mom visits, she's like, I can't handle your communication.
(01:00:14):
Oh man.
Right?
Cause she likes to wrap things.
Those would be like my tips in like figuring out what I need in a relationship.
I needed honesty, direct communication.
You cannot cheat on me and I'm psychic, so I'll know.
(01:00:36):
Right?
Cause like that's the best thing, but that doesn't put the fear of God in you.
I don't know.
Like those are my, those are my lines that I can't forgive.
Yeah.
Thanks for sharing those.
Yeah.
It's okay to have them.
And you know what?
If you come to a place in your life where you have to amend that, that's fine.
Right?
That's, that's okay.
(01:00:56):
But don't compromise your own feelings of safety.
That's, that's, that, that would be a place that you need healing in.
So I'll ask you a question that I ask every guest and it's actually two questions.
(01:01:17):
The first one is what does self-love mean to you?
Creative expression.
Yes.
And then what is your favorite part about being a woman?
Whoa, that's good.
(01:01:39):
I loved being able to have a baby.
Yeah.
You also mentioned earlier, we could stop recording if you'd like.
And I could ask you this question off recording.
So let me know if you don't want to record it.
I can cut this right out.
You did mention that like you waited a long time to have children and I'd love to hear
(01:02:01):
more about that.
Because I have always wanted kids and within the last year I'm like, no, I don't think
I want kids.
And like me and my husband are like, okay, let's just wait.
Like let's just like wait and like not think about it for a little bit.
Because we still have time.
I'm 35.
I could still have, you know.
(01:02:23):
You're totally fine.
So I'd be curious to know like what, like did you think you weren't going to have kids
or did you just wait a long time or like?
This is what my whole TED talk is about.
Yeah, I remember.
I listened to it.
I always thought I'd have three.
Okay.
Like I wanted, I grew up in, I got a brother growing up.
(01:02:44):
I always wanted, I don't know.
I don't know why three.
I have always been maternal.
Same.
Right?
So as a young girl, I loved dolls.
I had that yearning.
Babies love me.
Like people hear me say that.
They're like, no, they don't.
But no, you put me in a room.
If there is a baby, their eyes make their way to me and like I feel them.
(01:03:07):
Yeah, same.
Babies and animals for me.
So yummy.
Like babies just make my insides glow.
Like they're so warm.
Like I just.
And then they leak all over you.
Sorry.
So for me, I am not traditional.
I don't even know that I necessarily even believe in marriage until and unless you want
(01:03:33):
a family.
I think there is something to the family unit that is kind of vital.
And I think the breakdown of that has effects.
I don't think you should be with someone who doesn't love you, get divorced, like all that
stuff.
But there is something about the balance of masculine, feminine, yin and yang.
Like the different ways of doing things, learning communication, sticking through like all of
(01:03:55):
those things that you learn non-verbally when you're in a family dynamic.
I knew, especially after my storder marriage, that I didn't want to have a child with someone
who wasn't a husband.
Right.
So I've had the same thoughts before.
Right.
And yeah, I don't know if I never got married again.
(01:04:15):
Would I do it on my own?
I don't I don't know.
I didn't have to answer that question.
I might have a different answer if I was single and still had that burning desire within me.
So I can't answer that at all.
But for me personally, when I married my husband, I wanted to make sure that the marriage was
going to last.
(01:04:35):
And children change marriage.
Yeah, for sure.
I bet.
Right.
So I mean, we can do a whole other talk on that.
So for me, I wanted that, so it's my one very traditional value.
So then I got pregnant in my late 30s, 38.
(01:04:57):
I was pregnant, had her at 39.
And I really had a beautiful pregnancy.
I really enjoyed the experience of it.
And so for me, that's why I waited.
Like I just took like what I wanted and waited on the larger scale of, you know, what can
(01:05:18):
I handle?
Yeah.
And I was living in LA then.
So you know, being a mother in LA, and I already told him once I became a mom, I wanted to
be home.
Yeah.
Because no one was going to raise my child but me.
I'm very like full stop.
And now like I shift my work schedule because I think it's important that I show what support
(01:05:45):
looks like and boundaries.
And I'm listening to you and there's consequences like all of that.
I think I want to raise a good human.
Yeah.
So I think for me, those were my choices.
A consequence of waiting till I was older, even though I got pregnant three more times,
I could not carry any of them.
(01:06:06):
And that mess with me super big time.
Like I was like, can I dream of these children?
How can I see these babies and then not have them?
And then I did some healing on that.
And the boy that I kept seeing, the baby that my son that I kept imagining came and saw
me, how would you call them more as their soul?
(01:06:28):
This makes me cry every time.
And apologized and said, I just like, I thought when I was at my worst, that I wasn't being
able to carry another baby because they already knew how much I loved my daughter.
And then there'd be not enough love for them.
I think that broke me.
(01:06:50):
And then this spirit came to me and said, I was never supposed to come, but I loved
you so much and I loved being loved by you so much that I snuck in to get some.
And that really healed me.
Right?
That really healed me.
They're like, oh, I, sorry, I did this to you.
(01:07:12):
It wasn't supposed to be, but I loved being loved by you.
So I came in to get some.
So yeah.
Thanks for sharing.
Yeah, I think being an older mother has advantages.
(01:07:34):
Yeah, you're definitely more emotionally mature, more established financially, hopefully.
Yeah, I definitely see that because my parents had me when they were teenagers.
So I always noticed when I would go to friends' houses and they had older parents, I'd be
(01:07:58):
like, your parents listen to you.
They help you out when you make a mistake instead of grounding you right away and not
listening to what you're saying.
Exactly.
Yeah, it's completely different parenting.
I also think younger parents, younger women, like women in their 20s who have babies, like
(01:08:22):
early 20s, you know, you're an advantage at my age.
The kids are out of the house and grown and you have all this whatever.
For me, you don't get to have that period of exploration and figuring out who you are.
You might have kids young.
Yeah, that's true.
You might have the same burning desire I did like to have, and you might have fallen in
love young and have someone that can make all of that kind of work.
(01:08:47):
But when you become mom, like I said before, your identity is going to shift a little.
Do you have time to do all the stuff you want to do or be who you are?
Have you actually individuated, figured out who you are?
Because I also work with a lot of women who married young and had kids young and now in
their 40s, they're like, who am I?
(01:09:08):
And I'm not happy.
And I've been living what I thought I was supposed to do.
Yeah.
Right?
I think that's like, you have to figure that part out.
Is it what you're supposed to do?
It's what you want to do?
Why do you want to do it?
When you have kids later, I think you've answered a few more of those questions.
(01:09:30):
Yeah.
Or maybe not.
I mean, we know, but.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I feel like we always think we have the answer to questions, but like, none of us
really knows.
Like, no one has their stuff together.
I don't think so.
I feel like we, sometimes we think we do, but we really don't because we never know what's
(01:09:51):
going to happen.
Yeah.
I think life is about growth and change.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Right.
And it's always going to change.
It's not going to stop.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's a hard choice.
Like, do you want to say how you're feeling about it?
You're just unsure or?
I mean, to be honest, my heart would love to have a child and I've always been maternal,
(01:10:14):
always loved, you know, dolls as well.
I always dreamed of having five kids.
Not going to do that now because I've stayed, during the pandemic, I stayed with a friend
who had three kids and I'm like, okay, three is too much.
I just want one, maybe two.
And then that went down to one.
And then that went down to like, you know, getting old enough to really understand the
(01:10:39):
world a little bit more and looking around and being like, oh, I don't know if this place
is a good enough place to bring someone in.
Like.
Yeah, I get that.
That's how I feel right now.
And then it's also such a big commitment energetically, emotionally, financially.
(01:11:00):
Yep.
And, you know, just like the time freedom that you don't have anymore.
Like, it's just a shift.
It's a huge shift.
Yeah.
So, but like.
I would say the first five years are, if you are at home, like if you're not in, if you're
working mom is a little different.
(01:11:22):
Yeah.
Yeah.
But, but at the same time, all those exhausted, like those tired days, I just think of those
little like baby kisses and hugs and where the little video of her holding up a lunch
boss going to blah.
You know, like, no, I, for me, that was well worth it.
(01:11:48):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think, you know, for you, like I'm reading you just a little.
If you get too logical, then you're disconnecting from your heart.
Yeah, I know.
But I think I'm afraid to follow my heart because then I'm like ignoring all the realities
(01:12:09):
of like, first of all, how expensive a birth is in the US that I could die during birth,
like that I could have health problems from birth and like, there's just so many things,
you know, I can't argue with that.
I think, I think that I'm like, I chose this time to be down, but I don't know that it's
(01:12:30):
ever perfect around here.
For sure.
Yeah.
So what are you, I'm just going to pause and just like right now I'm honestly 99% no, but
I'm at 1% of me is like, I might change my mind.
Yeah.
Because you know, my husband and I are like, we're a no right now, but we know that no
(01:12:51):
isn't yet completely final.
Because you're in too much fear.
You're just sitting in too much fear.
I think this is the ironic thing about parenting is like, I mean, not to toot my own horn,
but I think I'd be a great mom and my husband would be a great father and we have a great
relationship.
I think all the people that are in that position that would be great parents, because they'd
(01:13:14):
be great parents, they really think about it a lot.
And a lot of those people end up being child free.
And I think that's the ironic thing about it.
Like there are a lot of, there are a lot of kids that exist where it's just like, oh,
oops, we got pregnant.
This is what we're doing now.
Like it's not really fully thought out, which is kind of ironic.
(01:13:37):
Yeah.
It is your product of that, right?
Yes, I am.
I am in this trip.
I went to my grandmother's house and like my grandmother's like, this is the bathtub
where your mother told me she was pregnant with you.
She was laying in this bathtub.
Yeah, it was really cool.
(01:13:59):
That's a good story though.
Yeah, it's a good story.
a relationship, they only really work if you're either facing each other or you're facing
(00:04):
the same direction.
And in long-term relationships, you'll go through those rough times, but you can still
be honest during them.
That's the hard part.
(00:30):
Welcome to Openly Spoken, the podcast to help you show up, speak out, and be seen in healthy
relationships.
On this show, we talk about self-love, sexuality, relationship tips, including ending the cycle
of toxic relationships, and healing and thriving after heartbreak.
Hi, I'm your host Cilia, and I'm a certified sex, love, and relationship coach helping
(00:55):
ambitious women with a history of toxic relationships feel deeply connected in healthy love.
These are such important topics that every woman deserves, so if you could leave this
show a rating and a review on Apple podcasts or Spotify to help more women find this, it
would mean the absolute world to me.
Thank you so much for being here today.
(01:16):
Now let's dive into the show.
In today's podcast episode, we are discussing navigating the changing seasons of life within
(01:38):
body image, self-perception, and healthy relationships.
We explored the themes of aging, self-expression, the journey of personal identity, and how
to navigate all of this while having healthier relationships and nurturing the relationships
with people that you love.
I am joined today with my guest Holly, and Holly shares some of her great insights on
(02:04):
getting needs met in relationships and speaks specifically to how to do that as an introvert
along with unique things that are needed within long-term relationships.
And she also shares her journey of breaking free from an emotionally abusive relationship
and the subsequent self-discovery that followed while emphasizing the growth and the lessons
(02:26):
learned along the way.
Holly is a TEDx speaker, an award-winning author, and an intuitive healer.
You may have heard her voice on one of the hundreds of podcasts or networks that she's
contributed to.
I'm also going to link her TEDx talk below.
And withdrawing inspiration from her journey, Holly channels her life experience into her
(02:50):
writing and healing practices.
When she's not writing, speaking, or helping others live the life they dream about, you
may find her dancing, listening to K-pop, or planning her next trip to Seoul in South
Korea.
I hope that you enjoy this episode.
And don't forget to give us a rating and a review on Apple if you are listening on Apple
(03:12):
or on Spotify.
And if you are listening or watching on YouTube, don't forget to like and subscribe to support
the show.
Thank you so much.
And now let's dive in.
It was like I studied journalism.
(03:39):
That's what I went to this school for.
And studied journalism and history.
And I back in the day in the dark ages before Y2K, when I did a news report and interviewed
people, I had to find six sources, three and three with opposing views.
(04:00):
So you had to interview three people to get to see where the facts they agreed.
Right?
And not like talking points, but like, right?
And then three on the other side.
And in theory, even if you worked with someplace with a slight bias, you were really doing
your best to present information.
That's gone out the window nowadays.
(04:21):
It's very weird.
Yeah, I don't like that anymore.
Yeah, it's very drawing to notice that when you're not in the country and you're like,
is all our news propaganda?
What is it?
This is crazy?
It is crazy.
Yeah.
What's crazy is why do people empower whoever the they is?
Why do they want us to not get along?
(04:42):
How does that make you happy?
Whoever's in charge of the world right now, whatever, I call it a very low vibration dynamic,
right?
And you kind of keep having to try to go high.
And I'm like, okay, so everyone, what does that get you?
But if you move in the world, I bet when you were moving around, and I don't know where
(05:04):
you were because I wasn't a stalker of any kind, like in Europe, right?
When you are around other people, you actually see what we have in common.
Yeah, it's very beautiful.
I just don't know why culturally in America it is very okay to label so much to an extent
that you alienate the people you actually wanted to connect with.
(05:28):
Yeah, I know.
I don't know.
Thought of the day.
Yeah.
That's not what I thought we would talk about.
I know, but where do you want to go?
Let's do a hard laugh.
I do though think that it's very short-term gain thinking here.
(05:48):
Like whoever, like how you said, whoever they is, like why would they want us fighting?
I think they're thinking more of short-term gain.
Because one of the places I went was Switzerland.
And I don't know the society there.
Okay, one example is just the food, the butter.
(06:09):
I don't eat dairy in America, but I tried the butter there and I was like, this is so
good.
My stomach doesn't hurt.
And the bread, like just bread and butter, you feel nourished because it like has actual
nourishment in it.
It's made with pride.
It's very hard to do United States versus any other country that's not like Russia or
(06:31):
China and they're not run the same way.
Maybe they are.
But do you know what I'm saying?
Because we have so much diversity and they're mostly monocultures with like even if they
don't all look alike, mentality wise, they agree, right?
For the most part.
For sure.
Yeah.
Go get me started on that right now.
Yeah.
(06:52):
Right.
I'm just thinking that like it's a monoculture, but so everything they're trying to navigate
and control is on a smaller scale.
Even if it's-
Especially Switzerland.
It's such a small country.
Right.
But then I also went to Germany and Germany is much bigger, much more diverse.
I saw so much diversity in Germany, which was very nice.
(07:13):
But in Switzerland, you don't see like if I have one bad thing to say about Switzerland,
it's like anytime you see someone of color, they're like cleaning something.
They like don't have a good job from what I saw.
I'm sure that's not all of them, but like I saw a little bit of like, oh, it's not very,
I guess like equal.
(07:34):
It's not an American thought.
Yeah.
Yeah, for sure.
That's my whole point.
Like you like, right?
So I'm traveling, I traveled to Asia last year, I'm going back.
And you know, I'm a minority when I go there, which I walk around in spaces where I'm a
minority more often than other people probably because of the things that I'm interested
(07:54):
in.
And so it's very interesting the American ideal or the justice ideal, like everyone
deserves or life is about an even playing field.
Do you think we come on the planet for an even playing field?
I don't think so.
And so what?
So what?
Like my parents grew up poor.
So what?
(08:15):
Now they're like, you know, they worked hard.
So what like my thing is instead of what I see as a fully middle aged person is, okay,
so it wasn't fair.
So now what?
Are you going to whine about it?
Are you going to alienate everyone else around you and cry?
Or are you going to create community?
(08:38):
Are you going to do better?
Are you going to do the work?
Are you going to work harder?
I did.
So why can't you?
If you don't like it, get into a position of power where you can change things, but
not where then you go oppress and make the other people guilty.
That's the problem right now, right?
Like, okay, so it wasn't fair.
I used to always say when I was younger, why me?
(09:00):
Why me?
Like really, if you've seen like the stuff that's gone on in my life, right?
I know loss, like significant loss, lost my home to a fire, lost my home to an earthquake,
alcoholic father.
Like, you know, I have miscarriages.
I have like changed careers, move across the country.
I like significant loss.
(09:22):
And you can either wallow in it or you can make a choice to have a better, to do better
for yourself.
And what's your idea?
Like what is it that makes you happy?
That's what I love working with people with, right?
Like all right, so if you want to be real, not perfect, which is my thing, and you are
(09:45):
in a transition point in your life.
The thing about maturing is, okay, so you have these emotions, you have to process it.
You just don't have to sit in the rage or the tantrum or the mantrum or the unfairness
of it all, right?
Because remember like when they did the whole matrix and they made it fair, people didn't
(10:08):
work.
I don't know, I guess we need some sort of thing.
I think many artists come from an emotional place to share their art, to express themselves.
And sometimes I think they express things for other people.
They see the world differently.
I don't want to see the world the same way someone who's just an accountant, who doesn't
(10:28):
know what it's like to dance, who doesn't know what it's like to be a writer, who like
I find those people fascinating and I couldn't be that.
I would feel so oppressed by that.
So I think like when people keep talking about standards or this is fair or that's equity,
right?
Are we supposed to be or are we supposed to be challenged by each other to grow?
(10:54):
I think like that mentality is like what I prefer you in a transition point in your life.
Okay, I made all these choices.
I don't like X, Y, and Z. I have to process my rage not being seen, not being heard and
how do I process that?
And then what does that mean as a human?
And how do I affect my community by doing whatever that I'm doing or however I'm doing
(11:17):
it?
Do I want to uplift?
Do I want to disrupt?
I don't know.
Like those are things that like I love those kinds of conversations.
Okay, yeah.
But I think a lot of people are just like, it's not fair.
Right?
That's what it looks like for all those Gen Xers, right, like to watch a lot of that.
(11:41):
Yes.
Like, how mature are you and what are you doing to handle that situation?
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I feel like that's a good transition until like what we wanted to talk about is, you
know, like inner child healing, mother wounds, father wounds.
And you just mentioned like a lot of Gen Xers will, you know, just be like, well, I feel
(12:07):
like there used to be such a, I guess, bad connotation around therapy and like working
on your stuff or even like crying.
Maybe not for women, but like for men, obviously there's like that, you know, boys don't cry
old saying thing.
(12:32):
And really like, you can really notice when someone, when an adult is just like an adult
walking around in a grown up body, but like they're still a child because they haven't
processed these certain emotions.
So they're like stuck in these, like emotionally they're stuck in the age of a child.
(12:56):
Yeah.
I like to say like, I think, I mean, I was a hot mess in my twenties.
Like I'm not going to deny it.
I didn't, I hadn't individuated.
I had, I didn't understand how much I was shoving down because I had to be positive.
I had to be excellent at work.
(13:16):
I had to stand on my own.
I had to prove to everyone that I could do it.
And I was using that, I didn't understand it was anger because I didn't want to be angry
because my father was super angry and I never wanted to be like that.
But it was the realization that I had a rage and all this pain that I never articulated
(13:39):
because it wasn't the thing we did back in the day.
And I didn't have the words to express it, nor did I thought I could handle it.
I didn't want to burden anyone, my family, anyone, because I could handle it better than
them.
Oh my God, how at 15 do you tell your parents that you were assaulted in the house?
(14:00):
Right?
Like I get goosebumps even thinking about me at that time thinking that my sweatshirt
that dipped over my shoulder was the reason that happened.
Oh man.
Yeah.
It's wild how we gaslight ourselves.
Right?
It's because I just thought I had more control because growing up in my environment, you
(14:23):
have to control what's around you and not like, I was like, let me make it better.
So at one point when I was getting divorced, because of course I picked a horrible person
and I thought if I loved him enough, I can make him happy.
He was artistic and I didn't value any of my own artistic abilities.
Right?
(14:43):
And I was like, as at work, and this woman came up to me and she's like, Hey, do you
know that every day at three o'clock you cry?
And I was like, bitch, what are you saying to me?
Because I was her boss, right?
I was like, what are you doing?
(15:04):
What are you talking about?
Wow.
Like every day at three, you cry.
I think you probably need some therapy.
And she's like, this is who I go to and I'm like, I don't think I like you.
What are you doing?
And I took the card and I was pissed.
Like I knew I had to be offended, but I didn't pray.
And then I was like, what is she talking about?
I am a happy person.
(15:25):
Right?
Like whatever.
Three o'clock that afternoon, I walked into the bathroom and I was crying and I had completely
disassociated.
I didn't even feel it.
How crazy is that?
So I called that woman and it was like, it took me almost nine months, she told me in
hindsight to actually say anything that wasn't protecting everyone around me.
(15:50):
Right?
So when I watch younger women doing that or fighting these big battles because really
they have an internal battle, I want them to surrender the fight and feel the pain.
(16:14):
And you don't have to have experienced the horrible things that I did to have your wounds.
You could have needed love and support that your parents were just not capable of giving
you.
Right?
And that's almost all of the population because our society isn't really set up to support
parents to meet their child's needs.
(16:36):
It's just set up to like go back to work ASAP.
Fascinating.
I don't find that.
I find the opposite right now.
Really?
I think children.
Yeah.
I'm like on some of these parenting boards and people are like, oh, my daughter coughed
and got her period today.
(16:56):
So I'm going to keep her home from school.
Well, what does that teach her?
Right?
I think we're breeding narcissists because we're making learning how to overcome or face
a challenge or get through discomfort.
We're taking that away from our children.
(17:18):
We're not letting them fail on the small things so they can learn frustration and they can
learn they can get up and try again.
And that is a life skill.
So when these young adults come to me and they're like all they are are these raw emotions
(17:39):
without the process, right?
Then there's a lot of like blaming, but you're the adult now.
Yeah.
What are you going to do about it?
Yeah.
I'm going to ask my parents to make it all better.
And then I find some of the parents are way too enmeshed.
They're like married emotionally to their children.
(18:01):
Yeah, that's not good.
And that's not fair on the kid.
And that's not right of the adult.
Right?
I think I posted yesterday about like I got on the mama's boy side a TikTok.
Oh no.
I've only seen, I'm not on TikTok so I haven't seen that, but I've seen there's this Facebook
group all about boy moms.
(18:24):
And it's like they post cringe things they find on social media like dressing up their
son as Spider-Man and hanging him upside down and like kissing him on the lips.
And it's like, oh my gosh, what are you doing?
That's crazy.
That's crazy.
Being, yeah, no, it was like, you know, one guy brought his mom on a date, working with
(18:48):
his girlfriend, were together for three years and she's like, I either want to ring on it
or what are we doing?
That's what the mom said?
Then the mom came and it was like, why are you pressuring him?
He's not ready.
Oh, I thought the mom was asking for a ring.
I was like, what?
Yeah, I know.
I was like, I need to call my mom.
(19:08):
You're so rude.
I don't know.
It's just like so crazy.
So I think like, like I have a teenager and parenting is, was a choice I made to become
a parent.
I really waited a long time.
I waited, right?
And then choosing to be at home, right?
(19:29):
That's not a choice a lot of people can make, but I have, I, we made other choices based
on that.
Right?
And so people will be like, oh, you haven't gone on vacation a long time.
Like, well, so I don't know.
I like who I'm raising.
I like who they are.
I like their sass.
I like that they know their value and self-worth and that their body dysmorphia is not mine.
(19:53):
Do you know what I'm saying?
Like that I am not taking that divine feminine rap load of toxicity and giving it to another
girl.
Like I'm, that's like one of, that was one of my main goals to not like do that.
What does that mean?
You said divine feminine crap load toxicity.
(20:14):
Like what is that?
Like my body dysmorphia is wonderfully healed as I can be.
I still have it.
And so when I was younger and I was a dancer, I'm a, I'm a very hourglass figure.
That is not a dancer.
Well, it wasn't back in the day.
Right?
I didn't know hip hop.
(20:35):
So it was like ballet and jazz.
You know what I'm saying?
Modern was like, so I take hip hop classes now, but, but fun.
So I used to take those in middle school.
So I am the oldest one in the room and I don't care.
I think that like that my teacher telling me that my ass was too big, that my thighs
(20:56):
were too big.
I'm like, and I see pictures of me as a kid.
I was tiny, but in my head I was huge.
Yeah.
Because of what you were hearing from around you.
Yeah.
I think girls are also, you know, more primed for body dysmorphia because of media in general.
And like the beauty standard is constantly changing and shifting and always has like
(21:20):
since the beginning of time.
Yeah.
There's so much more inclusivity now.
Like we just, I wouldn't sell a play.
I think I took my daughter to see Mean Girls.
Oh, that's good.
I've seen the play version.
Yeah.
It's really good.
It's definitely way more inclusive than the movie.
The movie's really racist.
I watched it recently and I'm like, whoa, this will be canceled if it came out now.
(21:43):
No, everyone needs to like, I want people not to take this the wrong way, but lighten
the fuck up.
Well, one of your, it's called Satire.
It's supposed to take that, right?
It's SNL.
It's like mostly SNL people.
Right.
It's like when I watched the play and then there were dancers of like different sizes
who were so good.
(22:03):
I'm like, he's a part of me.
I didn't even know I needed, and I'm picky because if I'm watching a professional dancer,
you need to be good.
Right.
So yeah.
And just like, Oh, look at that.
Look at that.
If I saw that, I wouldn't have believed her.
You know, being assaulted also like at 15 changes you anyway.
So like I had to deal with that, but I just, I don't, if you look in the mirror, what I
(22:28):
see and then when I see a picture of me, the picture looks a hundred percent different
to me than what I see in the mirror.
Even though?
Oh yeah.
I know that's crazy.
Right?
Yeah.
I'm not a big person.
I know that.
Like I'm not like, I don't, but I see my, I still see myself bigger.
Yeah.
And it's just because of all like, you know, 25 years of someone telling me not enough.
(22:53):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I'm sure you're not alone, so I'd love to know like, what do you do to kind of, um,
keep yourself in check of like, Oh, this is just, you know, a thing that isn't actually
true when I see myself as like really big or like my, there's something wrong with my
body.
Yeah.
I think that what I do is I either start the day or end the day in gratitude and I literally
(23:20):
say, Oh my God, thank you for this body.
I am in this body and today it helped me dance.
Right.
And or it helped me express myself or, um, it really depends on the kind of mode.
Like I don't, I don't see myself as like overweight, whatever that is.
(23:44):
You know, I also lived in LA for almost 20 years and like in the nineties and early two
thousands where lollipop heads were the thing, so your head had to be the biggest part of
your body.
So double zero was the size and I was like a six, eight.
I grew up in LA too.
Right.
So that was fat.
(24:04):
Yeah.
That's absurd.
I remember feeling fat too, when I was like a double zero.
And I remember for the, I remember honestly being 11 and having this memory of realizing
I was breathing into my belly and like training myself to breathe into my chest so that I
could keep my belly sucked in at 11 because I was living in LA and you know, early two
(24:30):
thousands, um, like the belly button rings were all the rage and flat tummies and yeah.
That was like the Paris Hilton era.
It was like the skinny low rise.
Oh, there was low rise.
Oh God, the low rises.
Yeah.
I used to wear leggings under the low rise.
I don't want to forget, you know, I'm just saying.
So I'm still not there.
(24:51):
I mean, I think they tried to bring low rise jeans back.
I don't know if that was successful, but I remember I've been taking a break off of social
media, so I don't know what's happening there right now.
I'm really only on my Facebook sometimes, but I remember maybe about a year ago, all
these like memes on Instagram about low rise jeans coming back.
(25:12):
I don't think they have.
I just bought a bunch of super high rise because after that, I'm just saying.
I think that, I think like again, it has to be about loving who you are.
So when I, when my daughter was younger and I would be like, baby girl, what's your favorite
thing about yourself today?
(25:32):
She looked at me and she was like a toddler.
She goes, my tummy, because it helps me taste all the yummy food.
I was like, that's so nice.
Right?
Like when was the last time you did that?
I think was on, I'm not really on Facebook.
I'm mostly on Instagram.
Valerie Bertinelli posted an image of her, like I don't know if it was a bikini or her
(25:52):
bra and underwear.
And she, I was like, oh my God, a real body, a real body.
Cause she's in her sixties.
So like whatever.
So like I'm in a place where aging is catching up to me and you're like, oh, I'm still the
same on the inside.
Your body makes a lot more noises now and you're like, right?
(26:14):
You're not like what, what is going on?
So I have enough vanity to stay healthy.
I, if I eat unhealthy, I feel gross.
So I'm, that's the thing for me.
I'm not a really big drinker.
So like, I don't really have those vices that other people rely on or need.
(26:34):
And again, if you need that, then you're filling a wound with outside things.
And I say you're also avoiding feeling something.
Yeah.
You're numbing.
Yeah.
And I promise you, you can feel the feeling and survive it.
I promise you.
Yes.
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's my thing.
(26:55):
I think, yeah, bodies are funny.
And I think women are not, are still not really allowed to age gracefully, right?
Men get dashing men are this or that, but like women were still, were like, you have
to be, I saw this other woman.
She's amazing.
I don't know her name, but she's a little older than me.
(27:15):
She's in her later fifties and she's still dresses like I still like to dress, right?
So she's like dressed and she's like, I have gray hair and I have these spots on my face.
And she's like, I don't tell me to dress my age.
I dress how I feel and how I express myself.
But she's like, don't tell me to age gracefully or I have to be sexy either.
(27:35):
Like what, like what are we like, what's that message?
But what does dress your age mean?
There's no store where it's like, here's the store for women over 50.
Like that doesn't like forever 51.
Like that doesn't exist.
That would be hysterical.
How am I taking that one?
I think I don't want to name the brand, but there are definitely some brands that would
(27:58):
be more comfort clothing.
You're wrong.
I got my cute sweat sets, right?
Like I'm all for the like hanging, like today it's freezing by me.
Like a hole in a giant sweater.
And I love that look.
I don't know.
I think it's again, like who are you?
And it doesn't have to be a level playing field.
Those of you are a little prefer simple or not to stand out, that's great, but hot pink
(28:22):
is my favorite color.
So I'll say it.
I used to live in New York and there was this lady there who you would see her on the subway
sometimes in Brooklyn.
I think she was like in her eighties.
She might still be living.
I don't know, but she's always dressed in all green.
And her Instagram is like the green lady or something like that.
(28:45):
And when she posts photos in her house, like her apartment is all green inside and it's
just like, that's like her thing.
She just dresses in all green.
I think her hair is dyed green as well.
Wow.
Maybe.
Come into the hard chakra right there.
Yeah.
Just green.
Yeah.
But I feel like it's for me, I feel like I see that the women being allowed to age,
(29:12):
at least from my perspective, seems to be changing.
I saw a photo of Julia Roberts recently and she's allowing herself to be gray.
She's not doing fillers and stuff like that.
I feel like it exists if you look for it, that there's also this woman on Instagram
(29:32):
named midlife muse or something.
Okay.
Her, I was going to say channel, her page is really good.
It's definitely like, you know, men definitely do get more.
They always have.
It's always been like, oh my God, he's a silver Fox, George Clooney.
But I feel like it's slowly shifting where like women are allowed to age.
(29:56):
I think women in general, we go through different changes because you are supposed to be beautiful
and to attract your partner, right?
Whatever that is for you, right?
That could be, there's a thousand different tastes.
Go do that.
If you choose to become a mother, motherhood changes you.
(30:19):
You shift.
You have to be less selfish in order to raise a person, right?
In theory.
And I think also when you become a new mom, I know for me, I went from producing film
and TV to having an infant, right?
I mean, I used to tell 250 people what to do on a day to day basis, negotiate with like
(30:43):
sag and like, you know, and then I was like alone and invisible and covered in spit.
It messes with you because you are not who you were, but the work of life is well, who
are you now?
How do you support who you are now?
Now, how many years do you want to be this person?
(31:06):
Or is this how you want to be?
Is this what you thought you had to be?
Is this what society or your family told you how you had to do it?
But how do you want to do it?
Those are the questions that a lot of people don't ask that I live in that space, right?
I'm, you know, don't put me in a box.
I'll smash it and dance on top of it, right?
(31:28):
How are you going to do your 30s?
How are you going to do your 40s?
Your 40s are spectacular.
I mean, I was in the best shape of my life in my 40s.
It was crazy.
And all I wanted to do was have another baby and I was super skinny.
Now we go back to the skinny thing.
I was like, I don't need this number on the scale is crazy.
I would have done anything in LA to be that weight.
(31:48):
And all I want to be is like big and round and under 65 pounds now.
Like I just want to be a belly.
That sounds like progress.
No, I'm not judging you.
I'm just saying when I'm pregnant, that was my big weight.
I think that then like I'm in my 50s, right?
And then those little cracks start coming in and you're like, how do I want to do this?
(32:12):
And how am I?
And how do you want to be?
So some days I'm super introverted.
I'm really reclusive.
I'm in my comfy clothes and I am with a book or writing or I'm inside.
And then Saturday and Tuesdays and Thursdays I am in a room with people much younger than
(32:34):
me shaking it.
You know what I'm saying?
Like I take this K-pop dance class.
I love it because I like K-pop.
And I walk into the room and there's like, they look nine or 12.
They look so young.
There's kids in there.
There's like people in their 20s and 30s and then me.
(32:57):
I think there's like another woman, but I'm pretty sure she's in her 40s.
I don't think she has any idea how old I am.
And I'm there to hit it.
I'm going to hit it hard.
I also think the younger people don't care.
Like I have a lot of friends who are older than me.
I don't think they care, but it does take bravery to walk in.
As the oldest person.
Yeah.
(33:18):
No, but what I mean is the younger people, they don't think like, oh, there's an old
person here.
Oh yeah.
But I have friends who are older than me and I never think twice about their age.
I'm never like, ah, they're so old or something like that.
I know.
Especially if they have like a joie de vivre.
(33:38):
I think it's about finding what you like or you're curious about.
I think one of the really other good ways to like even do exploring if you're stuck
or not.
If you have a feeling you don't know what that feeling is and you're not ready to ask
for some sort of help, go try something that you used to love as a kid that you might not
(34:01):
do anymore or try something utterly and completely new that you know you'll be terrible.
And don't judge it because I'm not asking you to sell it.
Everything in America right now is you have to monetize every part of your life.
You need to have 7 million followers and you need to make money on every social media platform
if you don't, you're a failure.
No.
(34:21):
I think like I would turn the camera and make you laugh but I bought at Michael's there
was a little crochet kit.
It was for like an octopus.
It's a squid.
I'll call it a squid.
And my family's like, you can't do that.
And I did, I made it and he's funny looking and I liked it so much I went made another
one and that one's super wobbly.
But I don't care.
(34:41):
I went and bought watercolors.
I got on watercolor TikTok and I was just like trying to paint a chicken.
Squid is the funniest looking chicken.
But it took me a little time and it was like fun and it was like new and it made my brain
work.
I'm like trying to learn Korean.
(35:02):
I gave up again but I do.
That's hard.
Yeah.
So hard.
You speak in a very different place and I can hear the words but they don't come out
of my mouth the way I hear them.
Different tongue placement.
Yeah.
Different like their vowels and they do a lot of things with like your tongue between
(35:23):
your teeth.
So you have to speak at the very front of your mouth.
I was talking to a woman the other day.
She was Peruvian and I was telling her when I was in Korea, all my Spanish came back which
was very annoying because I had studied Korean for months.
I was like, Como?
I was like, no, that's the wrong language.
Spanish is definitely more back of the mouth.
(35:45):
Yeah.
I think that's why they smile a lot in their cultures.
They're like happy.
She was like, oh, she spoke Spanish on the front too.
I was like, that's fascinating.
But see, if I woke up on Thanksgiving, did I think I'd be sitting next to someone with
a family from Peru speaking about language?
(36:08):
That's the magic in life.
Yeah.
Going to Korea with this topic of aging, because I know in the East they see older
people more as like with wisdom or at least that's what they say here.
Is that true?
Does your perspective on aging shift when you spend time in South Korea?
(36:29):
That is fascinating.
What I really enjoyed was I traveled solo.
I left my family behind.
I joined a tour and I was very prepared the first time I went to be other.
I'd seen the people who had been on the tours before.
That doesn't really bother me, but they look like groups of girlfriends or friends and
(36:52):
they looked in their 30s.
I was like, they'll probably want to go out.
I'm very married and that's not what I'm there for.
I was not looking for my mystery oppa or I just see like now.
So I was prepared for that, but instead I made like four women friends from all over
(37:16):
the planet.
They were 28 to 32 and I felt like I was at a slumber party every day.
I giggled.
How nice.
I felt hard all day long.
So now I have one of my friends who's in Boston and we have Luxembourg, Poland and Denmark.
Very nice.
(37:36):
That was from Peru, which is so strange, right?
How many people from Peru did you meet in a year?
Two.
Just this weird.
Then we just all giggled because we were curious about the same things and they were all solo
traveling too.
Now we're all meeting in May.
(37:56):
We're going to meet back up.
Oh nice.
How fun.
They know I have no sense of direction and they are like, I really don't.
And like north has to be up and east has to be to my right.
If it's not to my right, I have to turn my body until it is because I have like no sense
of direction.
But being there and being with these younger people, we were on the subway one day and
(38:22):
my friend Sarah is super petite.
She's like maybe five foot.
And I'm five five, so you know, super tiny.
Young early thirties and she walked in, I guess, and she kind of got bumped, right?
She's really unheard of there, right?
They have different spatial things and there are seats on a subway car and they are different
(38:43):
colors and some of them are pink and those are for pregnant people.
And I think it's orange if I'm remembering correctly.
Orange seats are for older people.
And it was kind of crowded.
And there was an older woman, like she looked older, dark gray hair, whatever.
And she like had a mask on.
She's being very whatever.
And she looked at me, but I didn't know she had just bashed my friend Sarah in her shoulder
(39:09):
and sat down.
And she was calling me to sit near her because she knew that I was old enough to be in the
seat, right?
And she's like, no.
And she's like, her eyes were twinkling.
She was like so sweet to me, right?
Eventually I sat down because it was crowded and I was tired.
But I waited until like if anyone else needed it, right, kind of thing.
(39:33):
So I think when I travel, because I would be an ajumma.
Ajumma is a middle-aged woman, usually older ajumma in South Korea.
Or nunna, which is older sister like for men.
Or unni is older sister for girls.
So they have very hierarchical culture, right?
(39:54):
So I am older.
So I got, it was fine for me.
It was really even with my bad Korean.
I was trying.
I think when you try, just like any other place I've ever traveled, when I try to meet
and be in a space that is your space and I am a guest, I'm going to be respectful of
(40:16):
your rule.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So I had, yeah.
I knew it was hilly, but it's like Santa Monica Mountains hilly.
Oh wow.
It's over.
There's like really the only places that are flat, like especially in Busan, which is in
South Korea, is where the Japanese leveled it when they were doing horrible things there.
(40:40):
So they literally leveled things to make it flat.
Oh wow.
It's crazy when you start learning that.
Yeah, no, I got along just fine.
When I travel in general though, people claim me.
Like we're friends now.
Yeah, I mean like when I was like traveling in France, they think, they often think I'm
(41:02):
French Canadian, which just, I don't even know.
That just cracks me up.
My French is awful.
I guess that a lot too, because when I tell someone that like I have a green card and
I'm an immigrant, they're like, oh, you're Canadian because I don't have like any kind
of accent.
So they just like assume I'm from Canada.
(41:23):
That's awesome.
In Italy, they think I'm Italian, like do you know, like I just blend.
But it's because I'm going to learn what's normal and expected and culturally appropriate.
Yeah, and I think most Americans don't do that.
What I found surprising is like even for me, even when I like try to be quiet, people say
(41:49):
that Americans are loud, but I think it's because other cultures are very, very quiet.
They're more private.
They're more private.
Yeah, because I don't consider myself a loud person here in America, but when I was in
Switzerland, I was considered loud.
Like you can tell.
I had a chush on the bus, me and my girlfriend started giggling in Korea and there's no sound.
(42:11):
Like they're very silent.
They're very quiet.
Yeah, you can like, you can talk this loud, but you don't talk louder.
Like you whisper and you lean over.
And I don't know, I don't know what made it.
I mean, like I told you, we giggled 24 seven and I have a loud laugh, right?
And I tend, like when I laugh that hard, like even thinking about it, I don't even know
(42:32):
what was so funny.
Like I like one of those laughs, right?
And I'm like, and someone shushed, sorry.
I felt bad.
I felt really bad.
But then I giggled harder.
Then we got off the bus.
So I was like, no, that's appropriate because that's their rule.
Yeah.
That seems to be a rule in most countries so far that are outside of the US.
(42:58):
Like that's true in Germany.
It's true in Switzerland.
It's true in Japan, South Korea, but I haven't been.
Japan's got a whole other, I don't know.
It's got a whole list of other stuff.
I'm going to be there for a day.
Oh, you're going there just for one day?
Yeah.
It is very close to South Korea.
(43:19):
Are you doing like a layover or something?
It's a ferry.
Oh, okay.
It's a four hour ferry.
We're going to go to Fuku, something.
And then spend the day, see a couple things and get back on the boat and go back.
I wouldn't do that in my real life.
Like that's way too much, but like I'm there for a short amount of time, so I push.
(43:41):
Yeah.
Okay.
I eat it all up.
Yeah.
I think that's all about what life is, right?
Like I need to stimulate my senses.
And if my introvert injures too much, is that good?
Yeah.
So for people listening who are introverted and who resonate with some of the things we
(44:06):
talked about in the beginning, like the body dysmorphia and kind of like needing to process
emotions, why would you encourage those people to travel?
I think there are many options to honor who you are and not feel alone.
(44:32):
Yeah.
Right?
So there's plenty of groups and things you can do research online before you start.
Like what I love about my girlfriends is they know I won't share a room because I am not
a morning person.
(44:53):
And I'm also married and have a family, so I want to check in with my family and I want
to do that alone.
I want a bathroom alone.
Like I just don't really, for the first week and a half that we're traveling together,
I probably will share, but when I start the other tour, I won't.
Like I just won't.
(45:13):
But when I first met everyone, I think there were eight people total on the tour, I said,
please don't be offended when I don't speak in the morning because I'm just really quiet
and it takes me time to warm up.
(45:33):
And another woman in the, I don't want to say everyone's names, another woman in the
tour, she was like, meh.
So what would happen is every morning before we started walking to wherever we were headed,
she and I would be to the side of the group, not speaking, but together.
(45:54):
Sitting together.
Everyone was high, big and loud and talking about what was going to happen next.
You can find the way you need to do it and then do it.
I also hit a wall usually around three or four in the afternoon and I also need to regroup
then and now my friends are all like, so we know you need some privacy, so when we're
(46:18):
doing a lonely letter, just give us a signal.
See what I'm saying?
So if you just ask for what you need, it shouldn't really be too much for people to give.
And if it is, then don't travel with those people.
You need to make your own accommodation.
What I know I need is not your problem.
(46:41):
So I'll just handle it.
I don't need to make a scene or a noise about it, but it is really good to take care of
yourself that way.
And you can do things quietly.
I love museums.
I'm a huge fan of art and I think it tells the story of people's history through their
(47:02):
expression in a way that how could I possibly know?
How could I possibly know what that's like?
How could I possibly know that you only had ink?
What was that like?
That's where my brain goes, right?
So they were bored.
So they were outside in the cafe at this one museum.
(47:22):
And for me, when I see a piece of art that is 20 feet by 20 feet, right, is massive,
no I'm going to stand there for a little bit.
Same.
I like to also go up real close and see each individual brushstroke and just be like, wow,
it's just a collection of individual brushstrokes that created this huge thing.
(47:49):
Yeah.
There was this mountain painting, what city?
I think we were in Gyeongju.
Was it Gyeongju?
Maybe.
But there was this smaller art museum and they were very particular which way you walked
through it.
There were arrows, there were people pointing, like don't mess, you had to follow the rules.
I'm like, okay.
(48:09):
So we came into this room and it literally was like half the room.
And they popped their head in and walked out and I'm like, no, I'll be here.
I'll see you upstairs.
Peace out.
Because to me, the vision to do that, to express that, what's hidden in that, I don't know.
(48:33):
For me, it's all of the above.
So I felt that way even when I was in Spain and there was an artist I had seen back in
the day when there were magazines.
And Cecily Brown, so you probably may be, people nowadays would be like, you only see
it on your phone.
And then walking in and seeing that it was 24 feet by 16 and I just broke down in tears.
(48:54):
I was like, this is so much more than I thought it was.
And it was part of my honeymoon actually.
My husband loves architecture and I like art.
He's like, are you going to be in here for a while?
I was like, yes.
Yes, I am.
I'll be outside looking at the building.
That's exactly what he did.
I just sat in this room startled because I'd only seen them inches and it was so much bigger.
(49:19):
And she has many layers.
There's quite a lot of eroticism in her art.
Well, then it was, I don't know about now.
So it looks like you're looking at this crazy kind of jungle thing.
But if you keep looking, you realize the layers on top are people.
And then you're like, whoa.
No, I love that.
(49:42):
And I think being a creative person, it's inspiring.
Yeah, I agree.
Yeah.
And also, if you're an introvert, just start your day the way you need.
Yeah.
And know that you're allowed to do that and it's okay to do that and you're not being
rude.
Yeah.
(50:03):
Like I said, I thought they might be going to clubbing or bars at night and then I would
just crash.
But they really weren't those kind of people.
And for me, I didn't know if I would ever get back to Asia.
So for me, I like to spend every moment of every day where I was see like just taking
(50:23):
it all in.
Uh-huh.
Yeah.
I'm glad you get to go back.
I can't wait.
I have to count down on my phone.
152 more days before I go.
Wow.
Yeah, you're really counting down.
Yeah.
But I get it.
That's how I feel about Germany.
I want to go back.
Do you really?
(50:43):
Like what was the thing that made you go there?
I was born there.
Okay.
And my mom and I moved here when I was a toddler and just overstayed our visa.
So this was my first time being able to go back in like 32 years.
Wow.
I just got my green card this year.
So that was why I went.
Like, do you know, like when I have one favorite German word.
(51:08):
You have a favorite German word.
Do you speak German at all?
Yeah, I do.
Morgan Muffle.
Morgan Muffle?
I don't know what that is.
It basically is don't talk to me till I'm done with my coffee.
No, it's just like, I'm not a morning person basically is what it means.
Not a yeah.
Morgan Muffle.
Interesting.
You don't have to double check it.
(51:29):
Maybe I've been saying it wrong.
I was wondering if you would say Eichhörnchen, which is, uh, it's just like a, it sounds
funny to say, but it just means squirrel.
Eichhörnchen.
No, Morgan Muffle.
There's, I follow a content guy is a, he's German.
He's like, ah, your German word of the day is Eichhnepp, whatever he'll say.
(51:50):
I was like, ah, your German word of today is Morgan Muffle.
This means a person who's not very happy in the morning and prefers that you leave them
alone.
I was like, no, you're like, that's me.
I feel so seen.
I feel so seen.
Yeah.
I feel so seen.
Let's see.
Yeah.
I'm not nice if you start talking to me either.
I mean, to my family, if a stranger, I would be perfectly polite-ish, but like, yeah, what
(52:15):
part of you know me forever that you know?
Yeah.
Also, even with my daughter, I had to make sure I let her know that my mood is not because
of her.
She can't fix it.
And it's just me warming up in the morning.
I just need to warm up.
Yeah.
(52:35):
Yeah, I think that's very healthy to teach your kids.
Yeah.
Because-
Someone's reaction to what you need to say can hurt you.
It can be surprising, but it's not your job to fix it, correct it, or make it easier sometimes.
Yeah.
And I think those foundational things, learning it from your parent really helps you in the
(53:01):
future when you have your own friendships and relationships.
Yeah.
Romantic relationships.
Yeah.
Learning to speak what you need, because I think so much of life is figuring it out.
Yeah.
Yeah.
What do I need?
How do I want to be?
(53:22):
What is important to me?
Right?
Like if you told me like 10 years ago the things that I love and am interested in now,
I probably would have been like crack smoker.
No.
What are you talking about?
You're so weird.
I would be like, yes, I am.
It's fine.
You did mention earlier that you were in a relationship and like it wasn't the right
(53:45):
one.
I'm curious what for you was, since I like to talk about relationships on this podcast,
what was the like pivotal learning or aha moment or thing that you think helped you
have healthier relationships?
I think for me, so interesting.
(54:08):
So I had a starter marriage, right?
That's what I call it.
What is that?
I got married.
Is that when you get married when you're like in your 20s?
Yes.
23 to 28.
Okay.
We lived together.
We moved in together like a month after I met him.
The reason why I decided to date him is I fit in his pants.
(54:29):
You told me about this, like you had the same pant size.
He was super tall and skinny.
I was like, there's no way I fit in those pants.
When I did, I was like, oh, I guess I'm staying.
I mean, they're the dumbest choice.
So weird.
So yeah, I mean, we have growth in our lives is all I'm saying.
So I was 23.
(54:50):
I thought he was super artistic.
I met him on a set.
He was an art director.
He was getting divorced.
He was seven years older and I just thought he was everything I wasn't.
And then he was actually emotionally and mentally abusive, but because I had grown up with an
addict parent, he was too.
(55:14):
So he's what I was used to even though I didn't like it.
There came a point where I realized I had given up everything and my therapist explained
it in a way where he picked at me for five years until I was like nothing left.
And then I called his mother who I'd like to tell everyone on our wedding day told me
(55:35):
I didn't have to do it.
Oh, wow.
And she wore white and I was like, what are you doing?
Like it was so crazy.
Like I think she was definitely trying to warn me and help me, but her way was not good.
So when I decided to leave him, I told her, I called her, I was like, I can't do it anymore.
Like there's nothing.
She's like, no, I understand.
(55:56):
She was so nice.
Like it was crazy.
We separated and then I was single.
I mean like I dated and messed around, but I wasn't really in a relationship for years
and I had to like fill all my own holes and I had to realize that I couldn't be a workaholic
and I couldn't not be creative and I had to stop giving everything that I was away.
(56:20):
Like loving someone.
Like this is one of my Holly's healing tips, which is giving is good, but giving yourself
away isn't.
And I had to learn not to do that.
And then I can't deal with a liar.
Like you lie to me, I'm pretty much done.
(56:40):
Like just if you don't tell me the truth and you don't let me make a choice of what I can
manage or not manage.
Like I don't this like it's a whole thing for me.
So in my earlier thirties, I realized like really what it was that I wanted in relationship
(57:01):
that I think the world will hand you chaos that you need someone that you can really
speak plainly to.
A relationship is never 50-50.
They only really work if you're either facing each other or you're facing the same direction.
And in long-term relationships, right?
(57:22):
Cause mine's over 20 years is that you'll go through those rough times, but you can
still be honest during them.
That's the hard part.
I think knowing that when it gets hard, you have to put in the work or pause.
(57:43):
Those are things I don't think people really discuss.
My kind of relationship isn't the kind of relationship my mother needs, nor will it
be the kind that my daughter needs.
I love like a cat.
I am like all sweet and cuddles and like, oh, love you, love you, love you.
Let me bite you and scratch you a little bit.
I'm there.
(58:04):
And then leave me in the hell alone.
And then I'll be back, right?
But I'm communicative.
I don't cut you off.
I'm not gaslighting you.
I'm not negating and I'm not cold.
It's just that introvert or that creative part of me also needs attention.
And so that is how it works for me.
(58:27):
I think relationships have to mature too.
I'm teaching my own child that you can play house in your twenties, but don't get married.
Because I want you to go out in the world and try three careers.
I want you to travel if you can.
(58:47):
I want you to figure out who you are and what you want and what you don't like and who are
you not in my house?
And who are you and what is your house like and what do you need your house like?
I need my house to be comfortable, right?
My mother needs her house to be beautiful, right?
There's a difference, right?
(59:09):
In like aesthetic.
I mean, I like my own taste.
I have art everywhere.
Like why do you have all this art?
I'm like I was single a long time.
I bought art.
It's what mattered to me, right?
I don't have, I'm not a stuff kind of person.
Like but I like art.
Like I don't know.
I think that is what you should do.
(59:30):
And then in your thirties, you find someone who sees the world in a way that supports
you and vice versa.
My husband and I go about the world very differently, but he's my champion, right?
(59:52):
I don't know if you ever saw us in a room.
First of all, he's six foot five.
He's a giant, right?
If you saw us, I don't know that you would put us together just by like that kind of
thing and how he moves around in the world that way.
But we were, but we're super honest.
So when my mom visits, she's like, I can't handle your communication.
(01:00:14):
Oh man.
Right?
Cause she likes to wrap things.
Those would be like my tips in like figuring out what I need in a relationship.
I needed honesty, direct communication.
You cannot cheat on me and I'm psychic, so I'll know.
(01:00:36):
Right?
Cause like that's the best thing, but that doesn't put the fear of God in you.
I don't know.
Like those are my, those are my lines that I can't forgive.
Yeah.
Thanks for sharing those.
Yeah.
It's okay to have them.
And you know what?
If you come to a place in your life where you have to amend that, that's fine.
Right?
That's, that's okay.
(01:00:56):
But don't compromise your own feelings of safety.
That's, that's, that, that would be a place that you need healing in.
So I'll ask you a question that I ask every guest and it's actually two questions.
(01:01:17):
The first one is what does self-love mean to you?
Creative expression.
Yes.
And then what is your favorite part about being a woman?
Whoa, that's good.
(01:01:39):
I loved being able to have a baby.
Yeah.
You also mentioned earlier, we could stop recording if you'd like.
And I could ask you this question off recording.
So let me know if you don't want to record it.
I can cut this right out.
You did mention that like you waited a long time to have children and I'd love to hear
(01:02:01):
more about that.
Because I have always wanted kids and within the last year I'm like, no, I don't think
I want kids.
And like me and my husband are like, okay, let's just wait.
Like let's just like wait and like not think about it for a little bit.
Because we still have time.
I'm 35.
I could still have, you know.
(01:02:23):
You're totally fine.
So I'd be curious to know like what, like did you think you weren't going to have kids
or did you just wait a long time or like?
This is what my whole TED talk is about.
Yeah, I remember.
I listened to it.
I always thought I'd have three.
Okay.
Like I wanted, I grew up in, I got a brother growing up.
(01:02:44):
I always wanted, I don't know.
I don't know why three.
I have always been maternal.
Same.
Right?
So as a young girl, I loved dolls.
I had that yearning.
Babies love me.
Like people hear me say that.
They're like, no, they don't.
But no, you put me in a room.
If there is a baby, their eyes make their way to me and like I feel them.
(01:03:07):
Yeah, same.
Babies and animals for me.
So yummy.
Like babies just make my insides glow.
Like they're so warm.
Like I just.
And then they leak all over you.
Sorry.
So for me, I am not traditional.
I don't even know that I necessarily even believe in marriage until and unless you want
(01:03:33):
a family.
I think there is something to the family unit that is kind of vital.
And I think the breakdown of that has effects.
I don't think you should be with someone who doesn't love you, get divorced, like all that
stuff.
But there is something about the balance of masculine, feminine, yin and yang.
Like the different ways of doing things, learning communication, sticking through like all of
(01:03:55):
those things that you learn non-verbally when you're in a family dynamic.
I knew, especially after my storder marriage, that I didn't want to have a child with someone
who wasn't a husband.
Right.
So I've had the same thoughts before.
Right.
And yeah, I don't know if I never got married again.
(01:04:15):
Would I do it on my own?
I don't I don't know.
I didn't have to answer that question.
I might have a different answer if I was single and still had that burning desire within me.
So I can't answer that at all.
But for me personally, when I married my husband, I wanted to make sure that the marriage was
going to last.
(01:04:35):
And children change marriage.
Yeah, for sure.
I bet.
Right.
So I mean, we can do a whole other talk on that.
So for me, I wanted that, so it's my one very traditional value.
So then I got pregnant in my late 30s, 38.
(01:04:57):
I was pregnant, had her at 39.
And I really had a beautiful pregnancy.
I really enjoyed the experience of it.
And so for me, that's why I waited.
Like I just took like what I wanted and waited on the larger scale of, you know, what can
(01:05:18):
I handle?
Yeah.
And I was living in LA then.
So you know, being a mother in LA, and I already told him once I became a mom, I wanted to
be home.
Yeah.
Because no one was going to raise my child but me.
I'm very like full stop.
And now like I shift my work schedule because I think it's important that I show what support
(01:05:45):
looks like and boundaries.
And I'm listening to you and there's consequences like all of that.
I think I want to raise a good human.
Yeah.
So I think for me, those were my choices.
A consequence of waiting till I was older, even though I got pregnant three more times,
I could not carry any of them.
(01:06:06):
And that mess with me super big time.
Like I was like, can I dream of these children?
How can I see these babies and then not have them?
And then I did some healing on that.
And the boy that I kept seeing, the baby that my son that I kept imagining came and saw
me, how would you call them more as their soul?
(01:06:28):
This makes me cry every time.
And apologized and said, I just like, I thought when I was at my worst, that I wasn't being
able to carry another baby because they already knew how much I loved my daughter.
And then there'd be not enough love for them.
I think that broke me.
(01:06:50):
And then this spirit came to me and said, I was never supposed to come, but I loved
you so much and I loved being loved by you so much that I snuck in to get some.
And that really healed me.
Right?
That really healed me.
They're like, oh, I, sorry, I did this to you.
(01:07:12):
It wasn't supposed to be, but I loved being loved by you.
So I came in to get some.
So yeah.
Thanks for sharing.
Yeah, I think being an older mother has advantages.
(01:07:34):
Yeah, you're definitely more emotionally mature, more established financially, hopefully.
Yeah, I definitely see that because my parents had me when they were teenagers.
So I always noticed when I would go to friends' houses and they had older parents, I'd be
(01:07:58):
like, your parents listen to you.
They help you out when you make a mistake instead of grounding you right away and not
listening to what you're saying.
Exactly.
Yeah, it's completely different parenting.
I also think younger parents, younger women, like women in their 20s who have babies, like
(01:08:22):
early 20s, you know, you're an advantage at my age.
The kids are out of the house and grown and you have all this whatever.
For me, you don't get to have that period of exploration and figuring out who you are.
You might have kids young.
Yeah, that's true.
You might have the same burning desire I did like to have, and you might have fallen in
love young and have someone that can make all of that kind of work.
(01:08:47):
But when you become mom, like I said before, your identity is going to shift a little.
Do you have time to do all the stuff you want to do or be who you are?
Have you actually individuated, figured out who you are?
Because I also work with a lot of women who married young and had kids young and now in
their 40s, they're like, who am I?
(01:09:08):
And I'm not happy.
And I've been living what I thought I was supposed to do.
Yeah.
Right?
I think that's like, you have to figure that part out.
Is it what you're supposed to do?
It's what you want to do?
Why do you want to do it?
When you have kids later, I think you've answered a few more of those questions.
(01:09:30):
Yeah.
Or maybe not.
I mean, we know, but.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I feel like we always think we have the answer to questions, but like, none of us
really knows.
Like, no one has their stuff together.
I don't think so.
I feel like we, sometimes we think we do, but we really don't because we never know what's
(01:09:51):
going to happen.
Yeah.
I think life is about growth and change.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Right.
And it's always going to change.
It's not going to stop.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's a hard choice.
Like, do you want to say how you're feeling about it?
You're just unsure or?
I mean, to be honest, my heart would love to have a child and I've always been maternal,
(01:10:14):
always loved, you know, dolls as well.
I always dreamed of having five kids.
Not going to do that now because I've stayed, during the pandemic, I stayed with a friend
who had three kids and I'm like, okay, three is too much.
I just want one, maybe two.
And then that went down to one.
And then that went down to like, you know, getting old enough to really understand the
(01:10:39):
world a little bit more and looking around and being like, oh, I don't know if this place
is a good enough place to bring someone in.
Like.
Yeah, I get that.
That's how I feel right now.
And then it's also such a big commitment energetically, emotionally, financially.
(01:11:00):
Yep.
And, you know, just like the time freedom that you don't have anymore.
Like, it's just a shift.
It's a huge shift.
Yeah.
So, but like.
I would say the first five years are, if you are at home, like if you're not in, if you're
working mom is a little different.
(01:11:22):
Yeah.
Yeah.
But, but at the same time, all those exhausted, like those tired days, I just think of those
little like baby kisses and hugs and where the little video of her holding up a lunch
boss going to blah.
You know, like, no, I, for me, that was well worth it.
(01:11:48):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think, you know, for you, like I'm reading you just a little.
If you get too logical, then you're disconnecting from your heart.
Yeah, I know.
But I think I'm afraid to follow my heart because then I'm like ignoring all the realities
(01:12:09):
of like, first of all, how expensive a birth is in the US that I could die during birth,
like that I could have health problems from birth and like, there's just so many things,
you know, I can't argue with that.
I think, I think that I'm like, I chose this time to be down, but I don't know that it's
(01:12:30):
ever perfect around here.
For sure.
Yeah.
So what are you, I'm just going to pause and just like right now I'm honestly 99% no, but
I'm at 1% of me is like, I might change my mind.
Yeah.
Because you know, my husband and I are like, we're a no right now, but we know that no
(01:12:51):
isn't yet completely final.
Because you're in too much fear.
You're just sitting in too much fear.
I think this is the ironic thing about parenting is like, I mean, not to toot my own horn,
but I think I'd be a great mom and my husband would be a great father and we have a great
relationship.
I think all the people that are in that position that would be great parents, because they'd
(01:13:14):
be great parents, they really think about it a lot.
And a lot of those people end up being child free.
And I think that's the ironic thing about it.
Like there are a lot of, there are a lot of kids that exist where it's just like, oh,
oops, we got pregnant.
This is what we're doing now.
Like it's not really fully thought out, which is kind of ironic.
(01:13:37):
Yeah.
It is your product of that, right?
Yes, I am.
I am in this trip.
I went to my grandmother's house and like my grandmother's like, this is the bathtub
where your mother told me she was pregnant with you.
She was laying in this bathtub.
Yeah, it was really cool.
(01:13:59):
That's a good story though.
Yeah, it's a good story.
Popular Podcasts
Boysober
Have you ever wondered what life might be like if you stopped worrying about being wanted, and focused on understanding what you actually want? That was the question Hope Woodard asked herself after a string of situationships inspired her to take a break from sex and dating. She went "boysober," a personal concept that sparked a global movement among women looking to prioritize themselves over men. Now, Hope is looking to expand the ways we explore our relationship to relationships. Taking a bold, unfiltered look into modern love, romance, and self-discovery, Boysober will dive into messy stories about dating, sex, love, friendship, and breaking generational patterns—all with humor, vulnerability, and a fresh perspective.
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com