Setting Healthy Boundaries in Relationships as an Introvert with Holly Hughes [PART TWO EPISODE]

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
You, I won't let that happen to you.

(00:01):
I will protect you.
You're safe with me.
How many girls are told you're safe with me?
Oh yeah.
Could you imagine when I heard that when we were little?
Yeah.
Am I safe with you?
And I can actually mean it.
I should say, not be a liar, right?
But like actually feel it from your caretakers that you're safe with them.
Yeah.
I know.

(00:22):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I have long sleeves on so you can't tell, but I have goosebumps.
Welcome to Openly Spoken, the podcast to help you show up, speak out, and be seen

(00:45):
in healthy relationships.
On this show, we talk about self-love, sexuality, relationship tips, including
ending the cycle of toxic relationships and healing and thriving after heartbreak.
Hi, I'm your host Cilia, and I'm a certified sex love and relationship coach, helping
ambitious women with a history of toxic relationships feel deeply connected in

(01:10):
healthy love.
These are such important topics that every woman deserves.
So if you could leave this show a rating and a review on Apple podcasts or Spotify
to help more women find this, it would mean the absolute world to me.
Thank you so much for being here today.
Now let's dive into the show.

(01:42):
Holly is a TEDx speaker, an award-winning author and an intuitive healer.
You may have heard her voice on one of the hundreds of podcasts or networks
that she's contributed to.
I'm also going to link her TEDx talk below and withdrawing inspiration from her
journey, Holly channels her life experience into her writing and healing practices.

(02:05):
When she's not writing, speaking, or helping others live the life they dream about,
you may find her dancing, listening to K-pop, or planning her next trip to Seoul
in South Korea.
I hope that you enjoy this episode and don't forget to give us a rating and a
review on Apple if you are listening on Apple or on Spotify.

(02:27):
And if you are listening or watching on YouTube, don't forget to like and subscribe
to show to support the show.
We're going to talk about kind of like a heavy topic.
So maybe before we dive into that, I'll just ask you like, how are you?
How's your day going?
What, how was your holiday season since we're recording this in December?

(02:50):
Yeah.
What, what is the life like right now?
I am really just focused on blowing things up to make everything different next year.
So I'm settling into the change I've been afraid of.
Oh, I love that.
Thanks.
Y'all just send me that because that was like the best description of it.

(03:10):
I think I know you could keep sending that snippet to me.
And I wanted to, because it really is, you know, I'm a big goal setter, right?
And like, I talked about, I think we even talked about like the fuck you being a
fossil fuel can only get you so far.
And I wrote an essay recently and I got a couple of rejections and it's been a

(03:33):
while since I've had to like deal with those and I was like, you know, they never
feel good, but it doesn't deter me from my creativity.
And so I find it amusing that the few people who I didn't connect with has
deterred me from speaking for.

(03:54):
And I'm like, why am I letting that happen?
So yeah, I mean, in front of like audiences, like I want to kind of that.
So I was like, all right, buck up, Polly.
You asked for it.
Here we go.
Yeah.
So now you're settling into the change that you've been resisting.
Yeah.
That was what you said.
Settling into the change.

(04:14):
I don't know.
See, when it's channeled, that was what you said.
Yeah.
Settling into the change I've been avoiding or resisting, something like that.
I know.
I'm going to write that down.
I'll send you a clip of it too.
Yeah.
It's also, I love that you shared that because you have done, you know, speeches.

(04:36):
You know, you've done a Ted talk already.
I think when people see online like, oh, they've done a Ted talk.
They're like, I don't know.
Like we, we tend to put people on the pedestal and we're like, yeah, that
person like is perfect.
And like, I could never do that because, you know, they just have some other
I have like something that I don't, but it's like, we're all human.

(04:56):
And like, even though you get to the point where you have a Ted talk, you still
have moments where you're like, Oh, I'm so critical of that Ted talk.
I'm so critical of the process.
I'm so critical of the edit.
I'm really bitter about the edit because they edited all the
pauses that I had practiced out.
I found the experience unnerving on so many levels.

(05:21):
And I thought it was going to build community, but it didn't.
Instead of brought up older tropes of perception about me from the creators
of that talk, which are you're weird.
You're so quirky.
Why are you so emotional?
Like those are the things that people running it would say to me.
But then they're like, we're here to speak to you.

(05:42):
Are you not emotionally supported?
I'm like, no, I loved my coach was outstanding.
She was amazing.
I worked really hard.
I mean, you work on your Ted talk for like, I applied for, I think for five,
six years, I applied to different Ted talks.
It was like a goal of mine to face my public speaking fears.

(06:04):
And I got the notification when I was funny enough in Korea, like I was like
my second year and I got the email that I'm like always there though.
That's not true.
It was my first time there.
I was only there for 12 weeks.
I'm going back.
But then you apply like in the summer and then they were like, we
didn't get what we wanted.
We're opening the doors again.
And I was like, that didn't feel good for me.

(06:26):
Then you do the interview process because you're like a backup choice rather than.
Yeah, I get that.
I feel like I would feel the same.
I'd be like, oh yeah.
And then they did interviews and then you got the notice.
And in my interview, I was like, this is who I am.
This is what you're getting.
And what they do during the interview, they see how trainable you are.
They kind of poke at you.

(06:46):
They really liked the, in my speech, I say like three didn't stick when I talk about
my miscarriages and they really liked that.
But the way I wrote it in my speech, the people in charge, I had it at the end of
my speech, because for me, I was building up to something and they made me and my
mentor, even though we didn't agree.

(07:07):
Now I really regret not fighting this more.
They made us put it in the beginning and it is a very, very difficult process.
And it is a very emotional thing for me to say in front of people.
Like I can see strangers.
I've had miscarriages and not fall apart, but if you, if I am condensing a lived
experience of many years of trying to have a baby and many years of losing a child

(07:32):
and many years of people asking me, why don't you have more?
Why don't you?
What's like, why one, one and done?
Holly, you're so selfish or you're such a good mom.
Why don't you have more?
Like how those things land when I say that and I'm being vulnerable, I tear up.
And that is a very hard place to be in a room with no space between you and the

(07:54):
audience, right?
Like, so it was a very interesting experience.
And so I think I need to learn how to take my truth and learn to deliver it in a way
where it doesn't emotionally evoke me to rawness and because I care about who's
listening and because I want to bring light and love and healing to those people.

(08:15):
I don't really know how to do that because I want you to know that if I
survived it, you can.
And so that's-
I don't see why getting emotional is a bad thing though.
Like, I feel like maybe your experience would have been totally different if the
organizers were more emotionally supportive.
However, you did say emotional rawness.
So maybe it was like, you do still want to get emotional, but not to the point

(08:40):
where you feel raw.
Right.
Yeah.
Okay.
I think that is creating like safety.
You know, like we said this too, like I have different gears as a producer.
I can walk into a room and tell you why that space wasn't a good space for us.
Also, like, you know, like because I'm sensitive, I feel the energy of a space
and the space energetically is not one I would ever stay in.

(09:02):
So, right. So I get like a lot of things that I have to manage on top of my own
fear and neurosis, right?
And we had rehearsal the night before, literally just hours before it started.
And my mentor, the woman who coached me wasn't able to come to town.
And so it was me alone.
And I find my life is like that a lot.

(09:22):
Like I do things alone that many people do in groups.
So that was like, that was like, Ooh, that hurt.
I wasn't expecting that.
At the same time, I had people travel from distances to see and support me.
So it wasn't like that, but backstage I was right.
Like I didn't have my insulation.
Yeah.
So that was kind of an interesting mix.

(09:43):
And then having my friends like three feet in front of me and I could see them
because the lights were on was a lot.
Yeah.
When you're on a stage, you can't see.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So there wasn't a stage.
That's the other thing for me.
Like, so for me, like the lights, like the power.
So for me, like the lights, like the bright lights on you, it's hard to see.
There was no lights.
It was just, that was part of my discipline.

(10:05):
I misunderstood you.
I thought you said you couldn't see your friends.
I couldn't.
We were just in a room.
They did it more of like an in the round.
So it was just a room full of folding chairs and you, you know, I know like, right.
And here I am trying to be remember stuff.
And then I before like halfway through my brain went blank, which has never

(10:26):
happened to me before I performed so many times and I was like, for fuck's sake,
Holly, it was just all too much.
So I do encourage everyone to try it and do it.
I think it was a,
Ted talk is definitely on my bucket list.
Yeah.
I, and I think like who runs it and trust your judgment.
And you know, I used to be upset about who I saw who got through where I was

(10:48):
like, why not me, I guess divine timing.
I have no say in that, which is annoying.
So annoying.
But I think it's held me back instead of me refining my needs.
Right.
I also used to come at things as because I had been a producer.
I came at things as a person who's in charge of everything around,
but I want to step into talent.

(11:11):
And as talent, I can ask for a safe, quiet space before I can ask for.
Mikes that work.
I can ask for like, you know, like not really high maintenance things, a podium.
One time I spoke and I asked for a podium and I was told I was high maintenance.
Who are these people running these events and how, why do I keep saying yes to them?

(11:32):
See, right?
Like, what is that abuse?
Like that's the thing I'm like, that's the thing I'm unwinding personally.
So anyway, I would like to be able to, it's part of why I do podcasts, right?
Because I really want to reach more people.
And I think this world is in such a raw state that more healing needs to be done.
And I would like to facilitate that.

(11:55):
Podcasts are also a place where you mentioned that all the pauses
were taken out of your speech.
I feel like a podcast is a very like pause friendly place because on YouTube,
you know, when they're posting a Ted talk on YouTube, like they'd want it
to perform well in the algorithm and they're probably editing long pauses

(12:15):
out so that, you know, people don't...
I know all my other friends' pauses.
I just think it was a conflict with me.
It was just yours.
Hmm.
Yeah.
Well, I feel like podcasts are like more conversational than a video on YouTube.
Maybe Ted, maybe they have this already, but maybe the Ted
organization should have a podcast.

(12:37):
They probably have one.
They do.
There's like Tedx is like a part of Ted, but not Ted.
Like I met a few people who got invited up to the Ted speech, Ted talk from Tedx.
But I don't think that I would do it.
I think, I think it's a marvelous thing.
And at the same time, I think you're asking people to work for free.

(12:58):
And it's interesting about that.
Oh, you don't get paid, but you don't have to pay to participate.
Do you?
Correct.
Okay.
At least there's that.
You just have to work for four months for free.
Yeah.
And hopefully the exposure brings you, I don't know, more...
It's a push me pull you.
Like, yeah.
Again, I would like to say, I'm very glad that you're here.
I'd like to say, I'm very glad I did it.

(13:20):
I even got a friend down the same, she's on the same stage as me.
I was like, you have to audition too.
My thing is like, I'm always like, do I know people that you could talk to?
Because like, then I'll just be sending them to you.
I'm a big believer of sharing accessibility that way.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So it's, it's fascinating.
I think Ted's been around a long time.

(13:40):
It could probably use a little cleaning up.
And I think I have to say, even if personality wise, me and the people involved weren't the
best fit for me, I would assume they would say the same thing.
I don't think they had any ill intentions.
I don't think they willfully or on purpose understood their own bias.

(14:02):
Right.
I wonder also, are they also working for free?
Maybe that's why they're like...
For sure.
Yeah.
Yeah.
See what I'm saying?
Well, now I know that whenever I do a Ted Talk.
Now, like everyone's going to come for me.
You'll have to take all that out.
No, hopefully not.
I feel like this is solid information because it shows that like, you should come with a

(14:23):
support team.
Yeah.
Like have someone with you backstage.
Yeah.
And like, you even see this with like, you know, certain celebrities, they'll talk about
friendship and like having certain relationships and like, you know, you know,
relationships and like the ones that don't have that, they're the ones that you see like
on TV that they got like a DUI.

(14:44):
Yeah.
You know?
I had one woman pull me aside.
It was just fantastic.
Someone I hardly had any contact with also was working behind the scenes and the night
of rehearsal pulled me aside and she said, I know when I recognize an introvert spiraling
when I see one.
She was so kind to me.

(15:05):
She's like, tomorrow you bring a headset, you sit in your car all day if you need to
stay away from everyone, I know you're being bombarded, but you got this, your story matters.
She was so kind.
So most she said to me the entire time and it was just.
And you're still connected?
It just, I needed that.
But I just, it was very, you know, I don't want to disappoint.

(15:25):
And I put a lot of pressure on myself.
So collaboration and speech writing and creative storytelling in any way, creative
fiction, fiction, everything, you're always working with an editor.
I can take notes, right?
You know, I can take that and adjust, but there are times when you should push back.

(15:46):
And so that, that is an interesting balance because a Ted talk isn't a regular speech.
A Ted talk isn't an essay.
Wrote one of the things I thought was one of the best things I've ever written.
And I send it to my critique partner for my talk.
And she was like, this is the best thing she's known me for 10 years I've ever read of yours.
And I was like, so proud.
And I gave it to my mentor.

(16:06):
She's like, this is a great chapter, but this is no talk.
And I was like, what God, I was devastated.
Yeah.
And I said, well, then I need better cues.
I need help.
I don't know.
Like, I don't know how to fix it because that's what I presented.
Yeah.
And then, so like, she had to like do the Ted talk and I had gone and watched, I can't

(16:32):
even tell you how many and broke them down.
This many, like, this is how they do the broad.
This is this.
This is the fact.
I'm like, I'm a researcher that way.
And I like, I did all that.
I was like, isn't that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
The answer was no.
Yeah.
So I found even the people who like maybe shined, I think the most that day, they have

(16:56):
like, I have never met someone who's done a Ted talk who hasn't said it was the most
challenging thing they've ever done.
I believe that.
Because even being in like Toastmasters, like making speech, making speeches for those meetings
are very challenging.
Especially if it's like something past the icebreaker.
Were you, have you, are you familiar with Toastmasters?

(17:17):
I am because we had a practice in front of Toastmasters.
Cool.
That makes sense.
Yeah.
They liked it, but Tedx did it.
See what I'm saying?
So they can just...
Toastmasters is a very welcoming space.
Yes.
Thank God.
Right.
The first time I did a Toastmasters speech, I think I talked for a total of 15 seconds
before I started shaking and crying.

(17:37):
Well, I cried.
I totally cried.
I didn't know my speech was going to be like that.
Because I was so scared.
I was like, that is a hot mess.
A hot mess.
But in hindsight, like to kind of relate this back to, or not back because we haven't
touched on it yet, but we wanted to talk about the father wound today.
When you look at that speech where you like cried, because this is what happens

(18:00):
to me when I reflect back of like, I only talked for 15 seconds and then I started crying.
Now, and it's like almost 10 years later, I look back at that moment and I'm like, wow,
that was me existing and like my old trauma of like, it's unsafe to like express your
voice because like you're going to get in trouble.

(18:20):
You're going to be criticized.
You're going to be harshly like responded to.
And I wonder if you ever, if you've had that same experience when you...
I think people dismiss my pain too easily because I can handle it.
And I think when I finally let down the wall, right?
And I'm that vulnerable, it's such a relief to know I have space to do it.

(18:45):
That I'm overwhelmed with love and appreciation.
And that's part, see, it's making me like tear up.
You see, I'm like crying.
That's what that was for me.
I am in a welcoming state.
So it was a love and appreciation cry, not a, I'm fucking terrified cry.
Yeah.
Okay.
Whatever, not the terrified cry, it's the love and appreciation.
That's beautiful.

(19:07):
I will let you in where only like three people live in my life.
Like that.
So in my heart, I'm going to tell you that part of my heart that took me six years to heal
in a sentence.
See, like if I say that, like that just makes me emotional.
Six years to heal that.
Yeah.

(19:27):
And you're dismissing me and saying, why are you emotional?
Because I don't fake who I am.
I think also when you're experiencing organized events where speeches are happening
and the response of the people organizing are like, why are you so emotional?

(19:48):
That's more of a problem on them.
And I think it points more to, cause I would say collectively, most people are not comfortable
with emotion like that.
Right.
Like we could watch it in a movie, but like if there's a speech and someone's in front,
or even in a conversation when someone's talking to us, if they start tearing up,

(20:10):
kind of just like, whoa, I mean, I'm sure women are more open to it.
And I'm probably stereotyping, but typically it's like more, I guess, common for women
to like really expose their emotions to their friends, but men don't really get that same
space.
I also think there's a fine line, not a fine line, there's a big line, a huge difference
between energy vampires and people who don't.

(20:34):
Yes.
And being vulnerable.
That's a great, yes.
Great point.
Right. Because there's plenty of people who will come around me and be like, blah.
And I'm like, yeah, I'm so angry.
I'm paid for that now.
I don't, I'm not taking time out and spending money to be out for you to vomit your trauma.
You get a half hour of bitching and then I want to start laughing if I'm out with my friends.

(20:58):
Yeah, I feel you.
I feel like there are some people who like, they just, they know that we can hold them.
So I don't know how they sense that, but like I relate, like my whole life,
I've been the person that people come to with their problems.
It's that empath thing, it's that awareness.
Most of us, right, are our empaths because we had to be aware in our environment, right?

(21:19):
So I think even unconsciously people can feel that.
But one of the things I love the most about myself is that I'm not fake, right?
And I'll own up to my good and my bad, right?
But one of the hardest things about being me is that because I can't be around people I don't like
and vice versa.

(21:39):
People have a visceral reaction to who I am.
They like me or they don't, right?
Like there's not like, I can be polite thing, which I really wish more people could just be.
Just be polite, right?
I think sometimes being honest or vulnerable, especially in the days of social media is hate
comments, right?

(22:00):
Like there, I put a benign post out the other day and it was like on my YouTube channel and
someone's like, I can tell by your glasses, you're someone who needs attention and you
must be a crazy cat lady.
And I was like, conclusion from glasses?
I'm like, I just deleted the comment, obviously, but I like to respond to those comments because
I'm like, I'm going to feed the algorithm.

(22:21):
And I'm like, thanks so much.
How'd you know?
I do.
I have two.
I have two cats.
I have two.
I love them both.
They love me back.
That's fine.
I have two cats too.
Okay.
So I want to check in to see, do you have just until the hour, Mark?
Do you have to?
No, you're good.
Okay.
All right.
Daddy wounds.

(22:41):
Let's talk about the father wound.
Yeah.
Daddy issues.
Well, so I have this thing.
I talk about it in my book as well.
When I refer to my parental unit, when he's misbehaving, I call him my father.
Okay.
And when he behaves, he's my dad.
Interesting.
That's a distinction I've had to do for myself.

(23:02):
Okay.
When I'm upset or hurt by something, I call him my father.
But then he's dad when it's the opposite.
When I'm still in care.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Cool.
Let's say no.
So how would you describe the father wound in case there's anyone listening who like
doesn't really know what that is?

(23:23):
I think it is not being seen, loved, or appreciated by father.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I would say the same.
It's like there's some unresolved trauma because of the relationship that you had or
didn't have with your father.
Or the hope or the dream that it could be.

(23:45):
I think that's what really leaves many people stuck.
Right?
Like every now and again, I'll even like, cause life is an onion and that emotion will
come and get you that will get peeled back.
And I can dream and wish that it would be something else.
Like why just can't, why can't you just, why can't you?

(24:06):
Like, why can't you?
Like, why can't you just call it or can't you just, why can't you?
It's such a simple thing.
And the dreaming and wishing and wanting that that will leave you living in the trauma
place of your young self.
A lot of people will call it inner child work.

(24:26):
I don't always call it that, but like that hermic wound is really what I think.
It is.
And then because I'm sick and twisted and sarcastic, you know, my father is older and
not always in the best of health, I'll say.
And so like, you know, I saw my husband's mother after she passed, right?
You know, cause I could see dead people and I just told her off and like, I was like,

(24:50):
go.
So for me, I'm like, I wonder if he'll appear after.
I wonder if he'll learn his lesson on the other side.
I wonder about that.
Like if I'm with one of my parents, not my dad actually, but one of my parents, if I'm
with them while they pass away, like what would be their last words?
Would they say, I'm sorry?

(25:12):
I think I know a creepy person moment and I love those.
I love them.
I don't think if they have awareness as we age, we get stuck.
Our mind gets a little foggy.
So I don't know that this capability, right?
I don't remember if I said this to you last time, but I was like, you can't get love from
a rock.

(25:34):
Not because the rock doesn't want to love you.
It's just a, in rough.
It's just a rough.
There's no intent there.
Yeah.
You just got to accept the rock for being a rock.
It's a cactus.
So sometimes if the person's prickly, if I'm like, are you going to hug the cactus?
No.
Yeah.
You could water it a little.

(25:55):
Maybe it'll give you a bloom.
But it's a cactus, you know, it's just going to prick you.
Mm-hmm.
And I think that's a good analogy of having boundaries.
And I think with family members, those are like the hardest people to have boundaries
with, especially our parents.
Yeah.
I think there is something to be said for giving some people grace as they age, right?

(26:18):
A little bit knowing that sometimes they're doing their best, but if their best is abusive
and hurtful, you don't have to do that.
Like you don't have to play that game, right?
And that's where the hope can sneak in or like, why can't you?
Why can't you just get together for an hour on Christmas and behave?

(26:39):
Why can't your girlfriend or boyfriend just shut the fuck up and just be prying for a
few hours during a holiday so we can stay connected in some sort of pleasant way that
will create a memory and establish a connection in family?
It's like, I just don't think that's so hard to do, but yeah.

(27:00):
Yes.
Right?
So like for me, my boundaries are I haven't been to my father's house since his girlfriend
acted out and he just tells me to forget it.
Oh.
But she like screamed and cursed at me and then I turned around and saw my daughter who
was like eight at the time.
Behind me.
No.
I don't think so.

(27:21):
I don't think so.
So I'm on her and I behaved exceedingly bad.
I tore apart the guest room.
I mean, I had a tantrum.
I did.
I was like, you think I'm a terrible, awful human being?
I guess all the laundry I started and cleaning that I'm done, I will undo.
And I tore apart the room.

(27:42):
Man.
And then do you want to know what I really did?
Sure.
I know.
Well, this will get a lot of comments.
I am glossing over what this woman has done.
She has alienated my father, my father, a lousage.
The fight we had, I had known her, like they've been together a long time.
I shared a room with her while my dad was getting heart surgery.

(28:03):
Like we used to tolerate each other just fine.
I was like, you're with my dad.
You're like, go live your life.
I don't care.
Like whatever you two do, go enjoy.
During one of his heart attacks, because he's had many,
he, they were supposed to go to Spain or Morocco or somewhere the next week.
And he was still in the hospital.
And I said, I need you to please, you know, postpone the trip.

(28:25):
And she's like, I'm goddamn old.
I'm not postponing my fucking trip.
You're a bitch.
And so I reached out to her daughters, which are similar in my age on Facebook,
if who number like they've been together for like a decade.
I don't know these women at all, which I find really weird.
That was weird.
Yeah.
Because she's very manipulative that way.
My father allows it.

(28:46):
He's okay with it.
Right.
So he must be getting what he needs.
So I reached out to them on Facebook and I said, Hey, I'm sure you're aware that my
father's in the hospital.
They're supposed to go to Spain.
Can you help me get them to postpone it?
Please.
And now also, cause you're dealing with people who are older and their thinking
isn't clear.
And if you're stressed out, cause someone's in the hospital, you might not be thinking
clear.
I'm just like trying to come to the big picture.

(29:08):
Or like having the tickets to Spain might be like their only thing of hope that they're
holding on to.
That would be such a sweet thing to think, but it's not, but that's okay.
So let's just, I like it.
I'll pretend that one.
Anyway, so the girls agreed with me, but they didn't really respond to me.
It's not really, they don't know me, right?
And they only know me through whatever or however they describe me and who knows what

(29:31):
that is.
So the fight, so that was in August.
So this was Christmas.
I was there very early.
This was Christmas.
I was there visiting for a few days and you're a goddamn pain in the ass.
You a troublemaker.
You had my daughters call me and make trouble and I wanted to do what I want to do.
And you're just a goddamn piece of shit.
And she just cursed me like was going nuts.
And the daughters never responded to you.

(29:52):
They just turned around and told their mom.
They agreed with me, obviously, cause they got them to postpone the trip, but I have
never, nothing else.
Right?
So anyway, so then the mom is cursing me out and I was like, whatever.
I go, you're such a nothing for me.
So many of you come and go my father's life and my lifetime with him.
So I don't give a shit.
So shut the fuck.
Like I just, I was like, I'm not afraid of you or you're whatever.

(30:15):
I go, and now I know when my father talks to you the way you do, cause you're a fucking
moron.
Like I went off because I was pissed.
I'm like, I am like, I gave you all the space and grace and now you three shots across the
bow.
I give you three shots and then you don't.
But when I turned around and saw that she was okay to do it, to scream and curse at
me with my kid behind me.
And that I had, they waited to the day I was leaving for her to have this conversation.

(30:40):
And then they realized my father left the house on purpose.
So like this was agreed upon by them to attack me.
I was not having that.
So I verbally shot back.
I was like, I'm not afraid of you.
You are just so common.

(31:01):
You're just whatever.
I'm like, I think I've, you're like the 10th version of you that my dad's been with.
So whatever.
So I went upstairs and made a mess of the room, called a cab to come get me.
Cause I was leaving.
I was like, no.
And then my daughter was crying cause she was afraid.
So I grew up with verbal abuse.
So like any sign of it, no.

(31:25):
That's a stop no for me.
And then they had been battling ants.
So when she walked away, I took sugar and put it everywhere in the kitchen.
They were in Florida.
I put it everywhere.
I put it in every cabinet, every nook, every cranny of the kitchen.
Everywhere.
Washed my hands.
My father then shows up and he's like, you're not taking a cab.

(31:47):
I'll drive you.
Okay.
Everyone just sit with that for a sec.
I just want y'all to sit with that.
And as we pulled out of the neighborhood, my daughter's like, oh my God, my Lego.
It's like she heard Christmas gift that she wanted.
Her present that she got was left behind.
I'm like, turn around.
And she's like, don't go in there.
I'm afraid of her.
I'm like, I am not afraid of her.
And I went and got the toys and there was that bitch just sitting on the sofa, like

(32:11):
eating her bonbons because it was clearly thought out and planned.
Right.
And so I've never been to my dad's house since.
And his conversation with me was why can't you just forget it?
Just forget it.
Why can't you just forget and just forget she said anything?
And I said, that doesn't work.
I don't care what she could say to me.

(32:31):
Like I'm a grown up.
I can handle it.
And I think she's a piece of shit, but you can't speak like that or be like that and
scare my daughter.
So the very minimum that I'm requiring, if you ever want to see me in your home again,
is for her to apologize to my daughter for scaring her by yelling.
I think what I say six years or six years out never happened.

(32:54):
Yeah.
And honestly, you'll probably never get the apology.
And I feel like that's a big part of healing father wounds, mother wounds, any wounds with
people is coming to that.
You just forget it.
I think I'm really like disassociative because that's what was required to survive his alcoholism.

(33:15):
When he was, he's sober, but he's like a dry drunk if you're like familiar with that at
all.
So does that mean?
It means you still have the, um,
You still have the behaviors of being alcoholic without drinking.
You still have the behaviors, the lying, the this, the that, right?
Of being.
I've never heard of that before.

(33:35):
Yeah.
So can you just forget it?
Then just okay.
You know, he texts me all the time that he misses me, but he doesn't come visit
it nor does he invite me, but I could tell you he's gone to Morocco and Spain and Dubai
for three weeks and India, like, like he's been all over the world.
I'm two hours away.

(33:57):
Well, you're two hours away.
Wow.
Flight and including a flight and a drive.
If you were just going to drive, it's like a 10 hour drive.
Yeah.
Okay.
So how do you hold yourself in that like shitty feeling of this situation?
I think, you know, I don't always feel bad about it.

(34:19):
I feel relieved that I am not going to cause my daughter the emotional,
mental and spiritual abuse of showing her that it's tolerable to be belittled,
put down and negated and go back.
Yeah.
That ain't happening under my watch.
And did you guys have a conversation like about it once, like after your dad dropped

(34:41):
you off, once you were alone?
She just can't believe that my father would let me go.
Yeah.
All right.
So I'm an age, like, so she's, you know, a teenager now, so it's much different,
but the conversation then is you did nothing wrong and this is not your fault.
And it's not your job to fix it.
And I won't let that happen.

(35:04):
You, I won't let that happen to you.
I will protect you.
You're safe with me.
How many girls are told you're safe with me?
Oh, yeah.
Can you imagine when I heard that, when we were little, I actually mean it.
I should say, be a liar, right?
But like actually feel it from your caretaker that you're safe with them.

(35:25):
Yeah.
I know.
Yeah.
Yeah. I have long sleeves on, so you can't tell, but I have goosebumps.
Think, think that is like, that's all the truth of it.
He, my father loves me to the best of his ability.
He probably does miss me, but he has no ability to own his part or apologize.

(35:46):
I'm sure he probably even said sorry for her.
And I was like, that's not good enough.
I'm sure he's like, I'm sorry.
I'm sorry.
I'm sorry.
I'm sorry.
I'm sorry.
I'm sorry.
Not good enough.
Yeah.
Not good enough because you allowed it because you left the house at a weird time.
So you must've known she was going to do it.

(36:06):
And my crime, if anyone's forgotten before I, you're still horrified about the tantrum I had,
which is the crime was I'm worried about your health.
Please don't get on a flight and die.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Just saying that was fine.
I'm so, I'm so awful.
Like I worry about you that way.

(36:27):
So yeah.
So I think the interesting dichotomy of like my pressure cooker of my personality
coming out of a life of that, right?
Is I deliver really dry and I'm exceedingly emotional.
That's why when I do let that wall down, it's extra special.

(36:48):
That ability, because there was no space to be like that.
Right?
I watched my father berate my mother every day over stupid shit.
And in hindsight, I realized that's cause he came home drunk, but I didn't know.
Yeah.
You don't know that one.
I didn't understand it was alcoholism cause it was just my normal.

(37:10):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I think it was when I was in like in therapy when I was like 28 and she's like,
you might want to check out Al-Anon.
I was like, no.
But then I went to the Al-Anon is out of medication.
It's oh, it's a group.
So AA is for alcoholics.
Al-Anon is for the children of alcoholics and it gives behaviors of how children of

(37:35):
alcoholics behave.
And I was like, tick, tick, like I had all of them and that annoyed me because I don't
like being like other people.
So I was like this, I was like other people are now overachieving.
Other people are trying to make peace in the house.
Other people know what it's like to be afraid of not knowing what's coming in the door.

(37:58):
Right?
Or then my father would like back in the day shower you with gifts to make up for it,
to make you forget.
Hmm. Yeah.
Which some people might think is awesome, but I'll take a safe space over that.
Yeah, definitely.
Me too.
And since you said that, you know, checklist of behaviors I did before this call, like

(38:21):
look up for, what did I look up?
I looked up like a checklist of things that come up with the father wound.
And I thought like maybe we could go through that.
Let's see.
Father wound signs.
Let's see.
You'll pick broken men.
Yes.
Start her husband, right?
Broken.
If I love you enough, you'll be happy.

(38:43):
So this is from AliveCounseling.com and I can link it in the show notes.
And there's one headline in it that says, or like subtitle, I guess it's called,
how does the father wound impact adult wellbeing and relationships?
And then there's like a list of about eight things.
And one thing that comes up is low self-esteem and low confidence.

(39:06):
And it says that like children are self-centered by nature.
We're like that first before we learn to like share and be kind to other people.
But when we have a father who's either physically absent or emotionally absent,
we might receive criticism for being that way.
And I think that's what contributes to the low self-esteem and low confidence.

(39:28):
I also think it doesn't say it in this article, but I also think to talk about
what we just said about having the safe space.
I feel like a lack of safe space also creates just like somatically low self-esteem and
low confidence because we don't have that.
Like I had both for sure.
I just called myself neurotic.
Like I didn't realize I was neurotic.

(39:49):
It was because of that.
I don't remember.
I had, I think I had a talk with someone I knew in college recently.
We reconnected and she is a famous newscaster and we were in the same program.
We were catching up and I was surprised that she remembered me honestly.
Right.
So I was like, oh, you know, it's been a really long time.
And I was like, this is what I remember or might remember of her.

(40:13):
I was like, you were really well spoken, thought you were really fun and smart and
you were really smart and you were really smart.
And you were like so confident.
Just like, you know, she, back in the day before a thousand cable stations, CNN was a thing.
It was like a big thing to be able to get an interview there.
And I didn't even attempt an interview.

(40:35):
I had no confidence in what I could do.
And I didn't even want to be on camera.
This is like just to be like a news person.
Right.
So she said, you know what I remember about you?
And I was like, no, she's like, I remember you were wicked smart.
She's like, you were really funny.
And you always stepped back.
Yeah.
I can relate to that.

(40:56):
Right.
But like, I think if you see me now or you hear me now or know like how far I push myself,
right.
Which goes back to the first thing we said, right.
I'm facing that same fear that's come like an old one.
It's not quite completely shattered, which is stepping up, stepping up and being seen
in the front because I really like supporting other people.

(41:18):
Yeah.
I want to find it for my work.
It's more comfortable to support other people than it is to like be the talent, like you
said earlier, that you're stepping into the talent rather than the like producer mindset.
Right.
So I thought that was funny.
She's like, you would never, you would go so far and stop.
And I totally do that too.

(41:40):
I don't like to attach that to the father wound.
I'm like, I overachieved because my father came from nothing.
My father was very abused physically, physically really abused as a kid and mentally and emotionally.
He had all of it, right.
So from what he came from, you know, and he came, you know, grew up really poor and he

(42:01):
educated and got a college degree and like went to Brooklyn college and like became this
thing and made lots of money and that is amazing.
And I was like, if he did it, I should be able to do it.
Why am I not doing it?
For me, I could never live up to.
He or my mother ever say that.

(42:22):
They never said that to me.
They don't even know where it comes from in me.
They look at me like I'm a complete alien.
I was like, I obviously am.
I just, you know, obviously, but I'm so, I guess it is part of this soup, but it is still
pretty unconscious.
I just remember his words hurt.

(42:43):
Like they would physically hurt me and he would have no memory.
So you get, and then when I was little, he'd be the guy watching Saturday morning cartoons
with me.
Right.
So like that is my dichotomy.

(43:03):
Yeah.
It's interesting to look back and witness that part of like who I was watching this
interview recently with, do you know Jeanette McCurdy?
I know the name.
She was an actress on The Guardian.
She wrote the book, I'm Glad My Mom Died.
And in an interview, she was talking about how when you're a child, there's like a

(43:25):
necessary delusion.
I don't know if those were the exact words she used, but there's this necessary, like
we see, we don't see fully the reality with our parents because they're, first of all,
We don't fully understand.
Second of all, like our survival depends on them.
So it's very interesting to look back and see like the differences between that, like

(43:49):
him watching the Saturday morning cartoons with you and like having those like nice memories
and like realizing that like, I don't know, I guess the shattering of that.
Yeah.
Because it is also a thing for me, femininity was weak, right?
Because my mother took it.
He'd come home, I have like a very distinct memory of being like on the stairs at the

(44:13):
top of the steps, green carpet, him coming home, being so mad about everything that
happened at work, right?
Everything that didn't go right.
His vein be popping and he got that sound.
I hate that sound.
Did you hear it?
Yeah, I heard it.
That sound makes my body want to convulse.
In him screaming her nickname, not because she had done anything wrong, but just because

(44:39):
he was venting.
So in my head, I had to be strong enough to take that even though I hated it.
Emotionally, I knew that.
Mentally, I was like, I don't want to be feminine.
My mom is super feminine.
She's super blonde, blue eyed, feminine.
I look like my dad.
I don't look like my mom.

(45:00):
And I was like, she's punished.
Femininity is weak.
Femininity can't push back.
Femininity, like for me, so also when I was wrestling with who am I, how do I want to
be, and when I started healing those wounds and surrendering into the power of femininity,

(45:21):
which is utterly and completely different than your masculinity and just as powerful,
it's just different.
That I had to get over the understanding or misconception of weakness.
I used to dress in specific ways as a cape.
I would call it like a superhero cape.
I would dress like tough or a color or this or that to protect myself from whatever

(45:49):
else could be.
And then in public, I think for the most part, I was known for a big smile, right?
And being mysterious and all of those things.
And all of that was a child's coping.
And back then I danced like five days a week, six days a week.

(46:10):
And my dance was my emotional outlet.
It was the way to get it out and move it and express.
And my teacher was awful.
She was abusive too and screaming like I'm a little girl.
Like, do you have to scream at a little girl like that?
Nowadays, I don't.
Maybe dance moms was like that, probably why I didn't watch it.
But yeah, I was like, you know, when you have a talent, where do you push?

(46:35):
There's a fine line between a good coach and an abusive one.
Right?
So just like how I tell grownups, grown ass people, if you do not heal your shit,
it's going to show up at work.
Look, even unconsciously as a child, I was recreating an imbalance.

(46:56):
Mm-hmm.
Where my safe place was still hurting me.
Yeah, because we're subconsciously trying to heal those wounds with other people.
That's why we get into relationships with people who remind us of our people that have hurt us in the past.
Right. My new talk, the one I want to step out on stage in 2025 is taking the trauma out of bonding.

(47:17):
All those girls I met back in the day in that dance class, we all had the same issue.
Otherwise, we wouldn't be able to deal with a woman who was belittled.
Yeah.
You would have been like, Mom, this is horrible.
I want to quit.
Yeah.
This lady's.
Because a normal person would.
A normal person would, exactly.
Not normal.

(47:38):
Not normal, I don't know if normal is the right word, but a person who learns at home that that behavior is okay is going to put up with it.
Great.
Yeah.
I get a fine line between pushing, doing better.
You have to get tough.
I'm not saying that.
Trust me, especially in this day and age, I think our kids are all way too coddles, honestly.

(47:59):
But there is a balance between what I think my job is as a parent for my own child, when there's difficulty,
things aren't working out her way and someone corrects her.
My job as the parent is I'm sorry that hurt to correct.
You can have those feelings.
What are you going to do about?
Then we like then you get to discern was the correction necessary?

(48:23):
Do I need to work harder?
Is this not a fit?
Is it a momentary?
Someone had a bad moment, right?
Because I don't want to say all these things because it's super simplified.
I have 55 years of my life in a few sentences, right?
So it's a little different.
There is nuance and I wish we would make space for the nuance, right?

(48:46):
So I don't know.
I think moving forward and for anyone listening, I would want you to be able to decide that I can love the person,
but not have to have them enmeshed in my life.
Yeah.
I can acknowledge that I have a dream of a relationship with my father that was different,

(49:09):
but realize the reality is it's not.
And when I open the door to more, I just get hurt and they don't.
Or maybe they get hurt because I've closed the door, but that's not your problem.
The solution is they need to reflect and say, where can I do better and where is this my limit?

(49:32):
And if this is their limit and my kid can't accept that, I guess this is the price.
Yeah.
That's a very mature thought process.
Yeah. I love that.
And it ain't easy and we're not always that good, right?
Because sometimes you shove sugar in cabinets. I'm just saying.
Yes. I also loved what you said about looking at what your ideas of femininity was

(49:58):
and thinking that it was weak and exploring that because that was also one of my big growth points
is looking into what is divine feminine energy?
Let me look this up and let me lean into it.
From my experience, I haven't shared anything from my father wounds,
but I was raised by my stepdad who married my mom when I was two.

(50:21):
No, I was three and he's from Pakistan and his culture, women are literally second class citizens.
And I internalized that as a kid.
I also thought that femininity was weak. I thought it was better to be a boy.
I did all the things that you said where you would dress to be tougher and stuff.
In high school, I would wear Boy Scout shirts that I found at a secondhand store.

(50:46):
I'm not going to lie.
It was really cool. It was really cool. I don't regret wearing that.
I don't think it's ugly. However, at the same time, the feminine parts of me,
I was completely rejecting or doing certain things in secret.

(51:07):
I would never admit to anyone that I loved Britney Spears because it was way too girly.
Just listen to it in secret.
I'm curious what you think about this, but I think when we look at our own feminine and masculine side,
which I think shows up differently for everybody,
I think that our feminine side is probably an internalized version of our moms, perhaps.

(51:33):
Our moms or any other female caretakers, even though feminine and masculine energy
does not have to do with gender, so I know that I'm muddying some stuff here.
Then the masculine side tends to be an internalized version of our fathers.
However, for both of us, we got a certain message about femininity from our fathers, too.

(51:55):
It's interesting to look at. I'm curious your thoughts.
I think I don't mind defining gender because I'm so going to be Gen X that way.
It's not because I don't care. I'd be love, do whatever.
I think that's a whole other conversation.
I think for me, femininity also was about sexuality.

(52:19):
Growing up in the time that I did, it was like Farrah Fawcett and her see-through bathing suit.
It was Playboy. I know there's way more bombardment.
You have OnlyFans now. You have all of these other things where we can dissect sexuality
and femininity into parts and parcels.
You dissect a woman until she is not.

(52:41):
I want that to sit there for a second.
You're dissecting women until they are not and then telling her what she is.
Yeah, holy shit.
Whatever minute there is on this one, I want that clip, too, because that's what's happening.
Femininity can be when you're comfortable in outward expression,

(53:07):
but it is all really internalized about your worth, especially if you're a woman.
What is your worth and what is your value?
Go back to my TED Talk back in the day.
People love, love, love quoting Confucius.
He believed women were only good uneducated. Women didn't have names.

(53:32):
Women only got a name when they bore a son and they became the mother of the son, this name.
I just threw up in the mouth.
He hated women. He hated them.
I did so much research on this. I was horrified.
Just let that sink in.
Confucius had a mother wound.
Obviously. Oedipus complex. What is that?

(53:55):
I think culturally, I don't know much about Pakistani stuff, but I'm assuming women covered and more modest.
I'm wondering if he ever touched you or showed you affection.
I'm wondering what made that kind of person attractive to your mother as a model in your home for you.
What's that wound that would bring that in?

(54:18):
What was the security and or safety that she thought that that brought?
I think it brought a lot.
In today's world, when a lot of people's homes are full of two working individuals and then you divide household tasks or what you need help with,
that can be an ongoing conversation and it's no one's business,

(54:40):
but it's something that you have to express and say, I'll do this or I won't do this or I'll do this much of this.
I hate doing laundry and I don't particularly enjoy cooking and I do both all the time.
My man Candy, my husband is 6'5", he's a giant, and so the deal is I'll wash and dry your clothes, but I'm not folding.

(55:02):
I'm not your mother. If I'm doing the laundry, I'll do the laundry.
I won't not wash your clothes, but I'm not folding and putting them away. I have a line. That's my line.
He's like, nor should you. We're good like that.
It's not a petty thing. It's not petty. This is just what I'm comfortable with.
I'm with him. He used to love cooking.

(55:25):
I'm like, you need to be cooking some more because I've become way too good of a cook and it's not that I'm not feeding you with love, but blah.
Those are very traditional, foam, maternal. I think maternal got the word I'm hearing because I want to say it's not mine.
It's like bastardized almost because my greatest thing that I thought about for so many years was how I wanted a mother.

(55:51):
Even my mother tells me how my mother is spectacular. I don't earn money doing that. I don't get really much attention.
I don't post about it. I've never talked about my family as much as I even am on this podcast. I really usually keep that for myself.
Let me know if you want me to cut any of those parts off.
I haven't said anything like whatever. What is that? Where do we have value?

(56:16):
Some of the really interesting arguments in the world right now are traditional-wise versus not.
How some women look down on tradwives and they think they're brainwashed or whatever.
On the same side of that conversation are women really working hard and wondering where the men of value are.
But you have to create space for that. If you're busy defending and doing all the work, and I was that girl so I could say this.

(56:45):
I was working hard. I was single. I was doing, busting my ass. I was going to prove to everyone I could do it all.
But really I wanted someone to do it with.
Yeah. So it's like those softening of edges and forgiving defense mechanisms that will create space for others to come in.

(57:06):
And then you can make other choices. But when you're busy defending and proving, that's a very different.
That to me is masculine energy where feminine energy is I am successful and I really want to share in that.
And I'll draw you in. Even feminine sexuality is about drawing in.

(57:29):
I would not have understood that in my 20s and probably most of some of my 30s.
I think that comes with being able to look back and if I could go back to my younger self, I'd be like,
I would tell me a lot of things that happened weren't my fault and I wasn't responsible.

(57:50):
And it's okay to ask for help or walk away.
Because walking away meant failure to me. Yeah, same.
Instead of walking away, like walking out of my dad's house after that person said those horrible things,
was my brother's like, why'd you let her kick you out? I'm like, I don't feel that way at all. I left.

(58:14):
I left and I won't give you the grace of my presence, my energy, my time. You won't know my family.
You're losing, not me. You. Me, I'm safe. I'm happy. I don't have to look at your mug.
I don't have to be and pretend I like you. I don't have to do any of that.
I don't have to be respectful of someone I don't respect.
I don't have to be in a house full of that energy and have it tap me out and exhaust me, make me sad.

(58:40):
How sad. Yeah. Oh, peace out. Yeah.
I celebrate your boundary setting with that. Yeah.
Because having difficulty setting boundaries is another thing I read about before this conversation that comes up with the father wound.
Like we learned that we're not worthy of setting boundaries. Yeah. Yeah.

(59:02):
Because you have to forgive. Yeah. Or because like you're not in control.
Because another thing that came up was like you can have a father wound if you had a father who was very controlling or manipulative.
And I'm like, me? Yeah, very controlling.
What's the thing that you hate, like the thing he controlled the most for you? Social life. I was not allowed to do anything.

(59:25):
It was like you go to school, you come home, even as a teenager. It was like no boyfriends, no hanging out.
Like it was always a I remember we lived across the street from this coffee shop and there was like an open night happening, open mic night.
And a couple of my friends from high school, I think I was like a freshman or sophomore in high school, were performing there.

(59:46):
And I really wanted to go. And it was the answer was no.
And the reason why was because I had to do chores and I'm like the house is clean. And it's like no, because I said so.
And like that was basically the story of my life. Just like you can't you can't do anything.
So like I always dreamt of just like moving out on my 18th birthday.
And the ironic thing about that is like my first long term relationship from when I was 18 to 25 was exactly the same way.

(01:00:16):
I don't like this friend. Like don't hang out with her. And it got to a point where by the end of the relationship, when I finally broke it off, I had nobody.
I had no friends anymore because I allowed myself to be alienated by this person because that was what I was used to.
And I do remember having these weird moments where I'm like, it reminds me of dad.

(01:00:38):
Because I call my stepdad dad, even though I'm in contact with my biological father now.
I like I remember being like, you see your dad is weird.
But like I didn't know anything about psychology at that time.
I didn't know about, you know, things I know now that we're like trying to heal our wounds from childhood with a person that reminds us of the person that created those wounds.

(01:01:03):
And that's exactly why that person is not able to meet our needs because they're the same like they're similar to the person that couldn't meet our needs in the first place.
And so it was just this cycle that will keep continuing.
Yeah, because you have to have awareness. I had this conversation with a friend whose children are in their 20s and they've been dating the same person for five years.

(01:01:26):
And her perspective is, you know, you either get engaged with them the next year after living together or you leave.
Right. Because and I agree, like if you're living together a date and a date, you need a ring and a date.
Otherwise, it doesn't work. Like, again, perspective. I know this. Right. So but I also don't think you should get married in your 20s because you know, you're doing is breaking.

(01:01:51):
Like I try to explain this right. Like you do what you know, even though what you know, you don't like.
You do what you know, even though you know what you don't like.
No, yeah. Do what you know, even though what you know, you don't like.
So you dated that guy and you didn't like how he was controlling you. But it's what you knew.
Even though you didn't like it, you were in it.

(01:02:13):
And they took whatever that last straw was for you to be like, and done. Right. Like, I got to work on this. This is what I want to do.
Yeah. Right. So, you know, like what you learn your parents' relationships so much from what they don't say.
As much as you. Yeah. So in your 20s, I highly recommend go see the world.

(01:02:35):
It's okay. You're broke. Go do it broke because you're young. You can. Right. So yeah.
And there are all these like group travel things for people from like 18 to I think 35 is the cutoff.
I was busy proving myself. You could be one of those or you could be young and go see the world. Yeah.
And like figure it out. You got plenty, plenty of time to do everything you want to do. Yeah. Right. So explore when you can.

(01:02:59):
And that will open your eyes to other possibilities. For sure. Other ways, other relationships, other culture, other norms.
And it will. It can challenge you is one way to say it. It can excite you is another way to think about it.
But there's just you just don't know how stepping out of what you know out of your comfort zone might bring to you the joy of it. Right.

(01:03:23):
So that that is something like I would recommend.
So if you're young and you're living together and you're going to call it playing house, don't don't get offended.
But I just call it playing house. Right. And that's fine. That might be a learning thing.
But are they going to grow? You don't know that you're both going to grow the same way.

(01:03:44):
Do you have the same dreams? Are you already making yourself smaller to make the relationship work?
Right. That's the key. If you aren't, if you're both expansive people like I have a friend who's with her high school sweetheart.
They had the happiest couple. They are like she is a unicorn. I'm just telling you.
But like they grew together. Yeah. They moved together.

(01:04:10):
This is really, really, really, really rare. So and I know people like to I've been thinking about this a lot lately.
People romanticize what it's like to be in my age bracket and you know, get like I can't wait to be married and like get sick of your old jokes or you know or.
This or that they like romanticize it. But when you're living it, it's not really romantic. I'll just say, you know, and so you do need communication is important.

(01:04:36):
I mean, the ability to this is the oxymoron. This is the paradox. That's the right word.
You have to be not forgetful. But in a long term relationship, there's going to be times where you're not growing at the same time or at the same pace.
And there's like an imbalance. But there has to be a love and respect there and communication during it.

(01:05:00):
Even if the communication is I need to withdraw for a little bit, meaning like I need to like my introvert needs to introvert a little right.
And then usually when you get through a hard thing, if you're both being honest and doing the work, whatever that work is, whatever the tweaking communication and sexuality in eating habits, I don't I don't know what it is.

(01:05:21):
Like what your dreams and goals have become. Then you go next level and it's richer.
It's really hard to get through those difficult points. Getting through difficult and growth points in relationships is different than suffering with an abusive person.
Because that's one sided. Yeah.

(01:05:43):
Yeah, I think a lot of people in long term relationships, myself included, needed to hear that.
Because difficulty will happen in relationships. And I think for people who come from dysfunctional families, it's easy to get like a lot of anxiety when the difficulty comes because you're like, shit, this isn't working out. Yeah.
Like we're doomed or like there's something wrong with me. I can't have a healthy relationship. Yeah.

(01:06:08):
Can we take a quick bio break? I have a lot of coffee and I have to go ahead.
Okay, asking for my needs. I'm with you. Wait, that was my favorite. I can't hear you though.
I muted myself because the bathroom in my office is like right here.
I'm like, I don't want her to hear me peeing. I walk away and feed myself. You're good. Yeah, good.

(01:06:30):
I used to like not ask for a bio break when I needed it and just like hold while I'm having a conversation.
I'm like, why am I doing this? It's like, I think the last podcast I did, I ran to the bathroom bent over.
I was like, oh my God, I booked it at the wrong time. My body's like, you know, we had to go to the bathroom. Now what do you think?
Yeah. Yeah. I'd love to hear about, so you mentioned like having a starter marriage.

(01:06:55):
I don't know if that was the last conversation we had or if you like you brought it up today too.
I'm curious to know like what were the shifts for you as far as like, you know, how the father wound makes us get into relationships with people that remind us of, you know, the same wounding stuff.
But then when we work on it or as we mature, we tend to be looking for different types of partners.

(01:07:22):
I'd love to know like what was that shift for you? Like what were some of the realizations you made or why do you think you were able to move from being in a relationship with someone who was not the right fit to someone who is the right fit?
I think for me, my starter marriage was fit into my plan.

(01:07:48):
So I had goals. So by the time I was 23, I want to know who I was going to marry by 24 to 26. I wanted to be married at 28. I wanted a kid at 30. I wanted a kid at 32. I wanted a kid.
Yeah. While I was doing that, I was going to excel and I was going to walk. I landed in LA and I was going to go from a PA to a coordinator to a production manager to producing.

(01:08:09):
Within five years, obviously, roll up to the Oscars in a Jeep, my hair messed up in a fucking gown and win an Oscar.
That was damn, I know. I was very, very ambitious. I'm still quite ambitious. I guess sometimes when I tell people...
Did you get your Oscar?
I didn't, but my friend might be nominated for one. I've worked with Oscar winners.
Cool.

(01:08:29):
I think also LA works for me because it's full of people with wounds. It's full of hurt people. I think art is created out of a need to express.
I don't really know any super... I'm a happy person, but when I go somewhere and I tap into things, I think you have to be able to be emotionally honest.

(01:08:54):
I think without any sort of trauma in your life, I don't know. Normal, wake up, had a good family. I don't know. I'm sure there's plenty out there.
I wonder about that too. I'm like, there must be a positive outcome to trauma. I'm sorry for the people who hear that who are triggered because I know there's some awful traumas out there.

(01:09:19):
In psychology, in my psych class I took, Psych 101, I remember it was most famous people had a traumatic event happen early in their life.
By then I had already been raped and my house burned down. I was like, I'm here, man. I'm here for it. What's up? I guess that was the reason. I'm weird. That was my coping mechanism.

(01:09:41):
I think that...
I wonder if it's because with fame we think we're going to get love because it's like all these people quote unquote love you.
There's a quote right now and I don't know who said it. If someone listening knows, please add it in the comments and tag me.

(01:10:02):
They're like, you know you parented well when your child has no desire for fame because they're looking for external validation.
I didn't want to be famous like you would know me. I still don't. I want you to know if you met me or come across me or want to hear me speak is because it's inspiring.

(01:10:23):
It's inspiring and helpful. Not for any other kind of exchange. I don't know how to explain that if that makes any sense at all.
Am I not going out for 7 million followers to have to feed a machine? I don't want to feed the machine. I hope I'm articulating that well because I do want to reach people.
You want to be well known but not like infamous.

(01:10:53):
I was with that person. He was an art director on a movie I was working on. I thought he was creative. The day I met him he was reading a book that I was reading.
I just thought that that was cool.
He had a leather fringe jacket. He was seven years older. I thought he had a shit together. He was getting divorced obviously.
I was the rebound for him. You should never marry your rebound. I just so were clear.

(01:11:20):
Why not?
Finish going through your year of crazy before you start any relationships.
I had a client recently. She's like, oh my God, I'm dating this guy. He's so great. He looked very different than her ex. I was like, just so you know, the next one you date is always really your ex just dressed different.
Just go have fun. More protection.

(01:11:43):
Last week she sent me a text. Damn it, you were right. She's like, I thought he was so different but I started noticing all of those things that you told me. I didn't want to ruin that for you but there'll be someone else.
I think my healing was in relationships. I had to learn to receive.

(01:12:07):
Yeah.
I did not even for one iota know how to do that and sex was kind of weaponized for me because of my, I lost my virginity to an assault. So like for me, I was always trying to gain control there too.
Yeah.
Right. And that scenario probably would have never happened because I wouldn't have been friends with the person who invited the guy to do that to me to my house. If I didn't have a father.

(01:12:33):
Yeah.
If I didn't pick people who were hurt and unhappy, they wouldn't be like oh you're 15 you should not have your virginity anymore like if you say that out loud. Just saying that's so crazy. So I think for me I had to be okay with not being in control and receiving and then coming to terms with I like people with edges.

(01:13:00):
Right.
I like that. I don't tolerate liars or cheaters. You cheat or you lie, I'm out. Those are my hard lines. Right. That's me personally I am not a person who's able to be polyamory. Right. Not that at all. I am not someone who can tolerate lies because father wound.

(01:13:22):
Like right. Like I don't. How if love means you lie. No that's not acceptable for me anymore. So when it came time to choose my husband, he's younger than me ironically and we definitely had a rough start. We had a rough start and we broke up at one point like when we were dating and I told him I was like I told you when you met me I am not in the meantime.

(01:13:49):
If you're looking for in the meantime leave me alone. I had gotten to that place I had dated someone who had been my friend for a long time. It was like I would be with you forever but I'll never marry you because we had different backgrounds and that devastated me. I'm like I knew you for a decade before we dated.
Yeah.

(01:14:11):
Maybe before like before we crossed that line that was kind of like different backgrounds be a reason to not marry someone I don't get that. It's a nationality thing it wasn't even religion. But I'm like I don't get that. Right.
You know then they picked who they wanted and happily like in doing their thing and that led me to make different choices because religion has never been a breaking point like a thing for me right. I could respect your faith and how whatever but I was like if that's an issue then I'll just go down this lane instead.

(01:14:46):
I did I met my husband and he was feeling his feelings he was like in his heyday right and I had been divorced for four years by then I think so I was like ready to commit. I didn't know if I believed in marriage but I definitely was monogamous right.
So and I had my fun I had had my fun and I wanted something different. We definitely had our glitches I'm not going to say it's easy and but we were honest.

(01:15:18):
Yeah.
And we could fight not dirty.
Yes. Right. So the things so I don't really want to get too personal about that because I don't talk about him but like I think the thing is that we like worked our glitches out and we've had some big ones.
Yeah.

(01:15:39):
Right and COVID wasn't easy either and I think that it has to be about respect and I think it's also important that he goes hangs out with his friends because he'll come home and he will love on me because I think he hears a bit about what other people like
whatever goes on in that house and he's like I couldn't live with that. Right. He's the kind of man who I've gone on writing retreats alone right I've recently I do some solo trips because what I want isn't what he wants and doing there isn't fun.

(01:16:13):
But I could come back and be super excited and I want him to go do what he wants to do.
Yeah.
So it's a balance and I think it is because I know he won't cheat and he like and I have confidence in who we are in our relationship. Yeah.
Yeah, I'm hearing that you both have space to be your own person.
I'm hearing that there's a lot of trust.

(01:16:36):
And I'm hearing that you both have this skill that is very important for long term relationships is being able to fight well.
Yeah, plus the honesty piece. Yeah, and the irony when he hears something crazy so his mom was could be the mother warned podcast right she was whatever her birthday and my father's birthday same same year to that I don't know I know I might be wild.

(01:17:03):
The other thing is same year same time the other really fascinating thing about my husband so the first time I took him to visit my family or meet my family my father was very active in his addiction.
Was awful.
He was awful.
No one outside my family had ever seen that.

(01:17:25):
Right like so it was a family party, of course, like it always was and then we were back in my father's house my father had left my mother for his mistress and we were in their house.
And it was my dad, my husband, who wasn't his wife just my boyfriend, me and my brother, and my father started doing what he does which is a viscerate you with his words in that screaming and that.

(01:17:51):
Right. And he started laying into my brother.
And my boyfriend said where'd you go.
Like, I, and he disassociated. I don't know what that looks like but I was on because fear embarrassment shame here, like afraid of what my dad's gonna do I don't I'm not in control why is he doing like why, like what is this, whatever set him off, it could have been like we didn't smile big enough

(01:18:22):
like it could have been like nothing.
Yeah.
So he literally picked me up and move me out.
And, and I was horrified. And I was like he will, I would never see if I ever saw that I would never go back to that right, but he like protected me.

(01:18:45):
And he's like, I don't know where you went, and I got mad at him and started a fight and pushed him away because like what else are you going to do. I was humiliated and scared and embarrassed and had no other choice but to confront the reality of that relationship
between.
And then, a little while later, so he didn't disappear he didn't go anywhere I was like what the fuck is wrong with you. And then a little wire later my father was visiting right and we were out to dinner and he was also drunk.

(01:19:17):
And I can't because I disassociate I can't tell you what he said to me, but it was awful and of course it's in public out like in, like, I remember another boyfriend and met him at dinner when he was visiting me, my father said something awful.
And the guy looked at me he goes, what father like who talks like that to their children.

(01:19:40):
And I never wanted to see him again right. So then my dad was, I can't remember saying something awful.
My husband pulled him out of the restaurant and told him, you will never talk to her that way if you have anything to say to her you say it to me.
But you will never fucking talk to her like that again. Wow. And then my father shut the fuck up and sat back down. And I write, right.

(01:20:07):
My husband, right, man candy, my man candy.
And I didn't know how to process that I still sometimes don't write he gets very protective of me sometimes I'm like it's okay we're okay.
But, but it's like even talking about like my heart races a little bit because it was like so overwhelming to have someone demonstrate no. Yeah. So my dad who was a lot of people's boss. Yeah.

(01:20:37):
Who earned money who told my mother she didn't like it. He would just take something away. Yeah. My mom remember me and said don't ever let a man say that to you right like those were all my internal input.
And also what your husband was demonstrating was what you should have received from your dad which was protection.

(01:20:58):
Yeah.
So even though like my relationship for my mom is too honest.
Right like we're too direct. We don't wrap anything and passive aggressive behavior we don't, when we're annoyed you know it is your mom German by the way.

(01:21:19):
Glad family is my dad's family. Yeah, my mother's side is Russian.
Okay. Yeah, I think both of those cultures are very bluntly honest.
Not for her like oh my my my her whole, that's a whole other thing but for her it's like, she needs the compliment sandwich, if it's gonna like we have to work our way to it and I'm like, can you just get there.

(01:21:42):
Like can I just get there let's like let's just get there.
It could because then when you are honest with someone you give them the opportunity to make a choice, if you are dishonest with me. I'm making I can I maybe make a different choice right I might need time here like making the choice for that person if you're not being honest.
Yeah, right so for me if you're honest I might need to cry or get angry or sad or feel betrayed or joyful or I don't know but then I and I might need a day or a month who knows to process that truth.

(01:22:17):
But then, then I can make a choice that's really the best for me. And filtering emotion is very overwhelming thing for me because right I feel all these extra sensory things I have to decide which one is mine, what is real and what is now, or what is past.
And, and like how do I filter all of that to get to like how I'm feeling and process and just deal with it or just feel it right because I believe you have to feel it to heal it.

(01:22:48):
Yeah, yeah. So then feel all of that and take it from there.
Yeah, for sure. Especially because typical therapy is just like talking about stuff, but there has been research done that shows that the people who actually progress in therapy are the people who are aware of sensations and feelings in their body, and that's pulling from, there's a book called focusing.

(01:23:16):
I forget who wrote it but I could link it in the caption or show notes but they talk about how like that's the difference like they like analyzed all these like recordings of therapy sessions, and the people that actually progressed were the ones that said out loud well, I feel a
tingling in my body like they're like actually feeling through, and that's why they're healing they're feeling it. And that's how I feel it.

(01:23:43):
That's the magic of energy work like if you can't name it, I can feel it and I can literally move it.
Yeah, dry on my table. Yeah, out of relief. Yeah, like, oh my god, I can let that go. Yeah, for sure. I'm letting that go. Yeah, yeah, a lot of people cry in my sessions too and I just, I feel very grateful to be able to hold that.
And to be able to, like we did talk about with the father wound like learning unlearning the enmeshment, like, when someone is crying. I can hold that and be that presence instead of crying along with them, which like if I was coaching 10 years ago I probably would be crying along with

(01:24:20):
the person and then it's like wait who's holding this space now.
Right, right. I know like I will cry when giving them messages because it's love it's overwhelming love and support that I'm trying to share with you. Yeah.
But when holding space or creating again that magical safe space.

(01:24:42):
Right, it's really rare people will walk into my office and be like, why does it feel so different in here I'm like because it's safe in here.
Can you hear my dog. No, I heard that noise I didn't know it was a dog. Please don't put it on the floor by my foot. Sorry about that. But it is actually to make a safe space is important and that like for me that's what home is.

(01:25:04):
Yeah, for sure.
So, I want to honor your time, although I want to keep talking to you.
But maybe we should close things out.
This is like two and a half episodes just like doing it to have hours, part one, two and part one and two. Yeah, maybe part one, two and three. Let's see how should we close this out.
I usually ask questions at the end but since we've already had an episode, I guess I'll ask a different question. If someone listening is aware that they have a father and maybe they're stuck in this like loop of dating people who are unavailable,

(01:25:42):
because that's what we fall into is dating unavailable people.
What would you tell them to lean into in order to have closer relationships.
I think the first thing would be that it's okay, it's worse to be lonely in a relationship than alone, and that although it could be scary to be alone that until you really figure it out. Don't jump into another relationship. And if you are in a relationship right now and you see that you're doing the same pattern,

(01:26:15):
then instead of running from it, unless you're being abused in any way, please leave. But instead of running from it practice in that one.
Fry being honest, fry creating boundaries right anyone who starts learning boundaries or puts it too low or makes it too hard you know it takes practice to like set that boundary the right way that you need it and I would practice with someone you know, if you know you're not committed if it breaks

(01:26:45):
and leaves, that's okay because now you have a skill you didn't have before, and that you will recognize the lures that made you go there. That's why I liked you I don't want to be attracted by that anymore.
Oh I see how hurt you are and I see your need for love taps into what I thought was feminine so I lean in for to you, thinking that loving you is me feminine energy instead of being like, oh, you're an emotional vampire who's trying to feed off and manipulate me, I see that you're hurt.

(01:27:23):
And then whenever instead of taking action for you. I can ask what caused that for you today. Does that something you always feel when this happens or what do you wish was different for you and give it back to them hit that ball back over the net and see if they have any conscious or emotional ability to grow.

(01:27:50):
That's uncomfortable for you to like work through those little pain points discomfort and new things, practice with who you're with so you don't start a whole new relationship with the same ball of wax.
Same ball of wax.
I love that advice also because a lot of people think that they have to be completely fully healed before they're in a relationship, but there are certain elements of yourself that you can't bring out if you're not relating to someone else.

(01:28:28):
Yeah, and like we're always growing.
Yeah.
And growing within a relationship is a good thing. Yeah, we're supposed to change we're supposed to grow and evolve and the partner that we choose to spend our life with should celebrate that change should grow along with us, and if they can't do that.

(01:28:51):
It's not the space for us. Yeah, and I wonder like the last caveat is like when they grow along with you, it doesn't mean they have to love and do everything with you. They just again make that space for it.
Yeah. Yeah. And sometimes like I'll love you enough right that horrible phrase to let you go. Right.
Especially if you're really young and in your 20s like explore.

(01:29:16):
Because otherwise I'll see you when you're 40 telling me that you wish you explored so I'm just telling you, more of the episode if you're in your 20s break up with your partner.
I'm like, go adventure, dump and go across the ocean. Don't make yourself small. Don't give up on what you want.

(01:29:37):
Because is what you think is right. Yeah, and I liked what you said earlier in the episode are you making yourself small to make the relationship work because that is a very important inquiry.
Inquiry inquiry to make.
How do you pronounce that word? Like to make yourself small means like not speaking up not saying what you think, agreeing with things like suddenly having no opinion about everything because having an opinion causes an issue.

(01:30:05):
Yeah. That's making yourself smaller. Yeah. Not wearing what you want not seeing your friends anymore not going for a bigger job or you also might be blowing up at work.
But you can't share any of the success at home because that belittles them. Yeah, for sure. Or maybe maybe you don't have to make yourself small like maybe your partner would be open to it but you're just so used to be like you taking up spaces on safe so it could be either or.

(01:30:37):
Yeah, for sure. Yeah.
So for people who have tuned in, where can they connect with you, where should they go next if they want more of your content energy your work.
Yeah, share all the things. Yeah, Cheryl come find me on Instagram and Holly Hughes intuitive. My website is Holly Hughes intuitive as well. So those two places great place to start.

(01:31:02):
Perfect. And I will link that in the show notes.

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