Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Oopie is here and his show starts. Now we move
on to a great documentary that me and Vic Kenley saw.
I saw it this morning. It's called Disgraced. And we
got we got uh Steven Espinoza, right, we got Chris
Who's Who's.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Who's a suit from HBO. He's taking a suit jacket Showtime, Showtown.
I said, your competation.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
I just sucked up the whole thing.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Sorry, he's ahead of uh so excited about the documentary.
Speaker 3 (00:31):
I forgot who to thank man.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
He's the head of sports over there sometime. Right, This
guy's a big fucking deal. He's rolling up in sleep.
If we show our sports knowledge, you never know, we
might be on Showtime, might.
Speaker 4 (00:42):
Get some This is great Steve, and we're gonna reverse
roles here, you and me, so I'll be right.
Speaker 5 (00:47):
He's the suit for once for once.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
And then we got Pat who's the director of Disgraced
on the phone, right, Pat.
Speaker 6 (00:53):
You're there, I'm here.
Speaker 7 (00:55):
Hey, guys, what you doing?
Speaker 1 (00:56):
How do you say your last name?
Speaker 5 (00:56):
Candelas?
Speaker 6 (00:58):
That's right?
Speaker 3 (00:59):
Oh?
Speaker 1 (00:59):
I knowed it all right, very good? I got I
gotta tell you, guys, Disgrace was amazing. It's about ballor
university their basketball program. You have a uh, well you
want to explain it in your words, but basically, you
have one player that murdered another player.
Speaker 8 (01:14):
Yeah, you know, I'll jump in. You know, Pat, you've
you've been on the tour with this. But you know,
the short version is, it's the only time an NCAA
history war a player has killed another player. And that's
just tip of the iceberg because you know, in this situation,
as you know, there's a murder of investigation going on,
and as part of that, other things start to come out,
(01:36):
like NCAA violations, and then a coach decides, Hey, I'm
gonna make up a whole fabricated story so that people
are thrown off the track of these investigations. Forget that
I'm sort of confusing the murder investigation. I just want
them to make sure they don't know why I paid players.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
Yeah. What's the coach's name again?
Speaker 5 (01:57):
Bliss?
Speaker 1 (01:57):
Yeah, Bliss? Right.
Speaker 5 (01:59):
And and Pat's a master interviewer.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
Pat, you did an amazing job interviewing him.
Speaker 6 (02:05):
Well, thank you.
Speaker 7 (02:06):
I don't know about master interview, but thank you.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
I'll go it. Amazing.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
You had him at one point, you had him so
angry he jumped up, and you think he's going to
walk out of the interview, So.
Speaker 3 (02:18):
The camera just stays on his chest.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
And I kept thinking he's going to yank this microphone
off and finally walk away because you had him on
the rope so well, and somehow or another.
Speaker 3 (02:27):
You lured his ass back down into the seat and
kept the fish on the hook and that was master.
Speaker 1 (02:32):
Well what was interesting about that? Pat uh? He basically said, uh,
you know this is off the record, and you were
smart enough. You were smart enough when he stood up
and you could just see his uh torso not to
move the camera.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
Right, No, that's what made that footage so awesome, Right,
I really enjoyed that's I was watching that part.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
I'm thinking that as fuck. Yah smart Now.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
The same thing I was like, I don't know a
lot about directing, Right, that was massive.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
How were you able to use that footage in the film.
Speaker 7 (03:06):
Well, what's crazy about that is we had that was
three hours into the interview with Dave and we got
a full crew sitting across from him, so Dave designed
a release. We're talking about everything, and as soon as
I got into the NCUBA violations is when he got
extremely defensive and starts denying things that he had already
admitted to. And I'm holding the NC double a report
(03:29):
that that goes into great detail on all these things
that he had done, and he starts denying the simple
things that he had already admitted to. And I was
shocked by what was going on. And when you hear
him say that that clip is is unedited, and he's saying, yeah,
this is off camera, but he keeps talking. I never
say no, this is not off camera, this is not
off the record, and he just keeps going. Another reason
(03:53):
that we kept it in is because the second interview
we did with him, almost a year later, he repeated
that over and over again, you know, completely on the record, right,
So I felt like if we didn't use that, you know,
I'm a mouthpiece for days for propaganda and his redemption
and that's not obviously that's not the way he feels.
You see him completely change and open up and start
(04:14):
saying some unbelievably crazy things.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
I didn't know much about Dave Bliss in general. This
story goes back to two thousand and three, but he
just seems a bit like a bit creepy.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
Well, I remember, I remember when he I'm a college
crazy sports screen. So I remember when he left SMU,
it wasn't necessarily that graceful of an exit, and they
kind of covered it on it because SMU had so
much trouble with the football program, right, and so he
kind of got a free pass on that. But they
were sniffing around at some of his recruiting practices at
SMU and then at New Mexico, and then you know.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
He was able to get out of there before the
hammer came brown, right, And then the real question is
is after something like this happens, why does someone you know,
why does someone do this?
Speaker 5 (04:54):
Why do they talk? Why do they allow a documentary?
Speaker 8 (04:58):
And in this place and Pat will ve as well,
but in this case, you know, he'd become born again.
You know, he had written a book, you know, so
and he was on this redemption tour right looking his
ten year ban essentially from coaching had expired. And now
you know, we've seen all the time you go on
the redemption tour, you know, and doesn't always include being
born again. But it's sort of like I'm a different guy, right, yeah,
(05:21):
And that's you know, Pat, that's how you you that
was your end correct.
Speaker 7 (05:26):
Yeah, right right when we started looking into we were
literally doing research and we had filed like a square
request and we're looking at police reports and witness statements
and realizing there's a whole lot more of the story.
And out of the blue, Dave writes a book and
he had just been hired at Southwestern, a tiny little
nai A school in Bethany, Oklahoma. In his book, it
was fascinating. I got it right away and read it,
(05:47):
and you know, he comps to some of the things
that had happened, but his story is very very well crafted. Yeah,
and it's it's put together. So he says, I'm sorry
just enough, and well when I when I paid the tuition,
I did it out of.
Speaker 6 (06:00):
The goodness of my heart, you know, and.
Speaker 7 (06:02):
All of these things, he's just minimizing what actually happened.
And if you don't really know what happens, it sounds
very believable. And I think I think the only reason
Dave sat down is because he was interested in getting
attention now that this book was out and he had
been hired by another college, even though it's a very
small college, and he wanted to kind of change the
(06:22):
legacy and turn everything around.
Speaker 1 (06:25):
Yeah, the story is about Patrick Denahey, who's a star player.
A lot of people say he had the skills to
be in the NBA. And then his roommate who he
got along with very well, killed him, murdered him. Carlton
dots Carlton Dotson, thank you, Vic Kenley in a field,
And that was confusing to everyone right there because they
were really, really close. And then it comes out that
(06:47):
everyone just assumed this guy was so good that he
had a scholarship to ballor University. Turns out he didn't,
and that the school paid for it. Hey Bliss himself, So.
Speaker 6 (06:57):
Yeah, that's great.
Speaker 7 (06:59):
That's one of the things that makes the story so
interesting is that the murder is really where the story
picks up, right, you know, that's normally kind of where
it ends, and that kind of when he goes missing,
you know, that opens up everything and all of these
stories about you know, players pulling guns on each other,
in drug use and all the stuff that's going on
behind the scenes at the world's largest Baptist university.
Speaker 6 (07:19):
It became a huge.
Speaker 7 (07:21):
Media storm and then Bliss starts reacting to this, and
rather than doing the right thing, he's trying to figure
out how he can he can save himself and just
just comes up with this crazy idea.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
Yeah, not only did he pay for his tuition, he
gave him a brand new vehicle, helped him get a Yeah,
which that amazes me. That just shows you all the
universities are getting away with murder because they they think, yeah,
we could give this kid a brand new SUV and
no one's going to question that.
Speaker 8 (07:47):
Well, here's the interesting thing, and you can, you can,
you can go in whatever direction you want from this.
You know, the thing is blown open by the girlfriend, right.
The girlfriend is dissatisfied with the murder investigation. So you know,
I think she's a former athlete as well White Pat
she was.
Speaker 6 (08:08):
She has a track star at U and M.
Speaker 8 (08:09):
So she knows that Hey, if when NCAA violations get reported,
they bring in the FBI to investigate. And when the
FBI is around Waco and there's an open murder, maybe
we'll start to get the attention.
Speaker 1 (08:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 8 (08:23):
So, but for her, and I don't think in her shoes,
I don't know that I would have thought of that, right, Like,
I'm going to blow the whistle on Patrick being given cash,
so the FBI will come in and help me.
Speaker 3 (08:34):
With the might.
Speaker 1 (08:35):
What was it she satisfied about Pat she thought she.
Speaker 6 (08:39):
Thought the murder, Yeah, that there was.
Speaker 7 (08:41):
Things were not moving fast enough because between you know,
between the moment that they filed a missing persons report
and they actually found his body, it was something like
forty five days, right, So this dragged on for a
long time. And so, yeah, she she outed herself taking money.
Jessica got got hit, she had to pay all sorts
of money back, and got suspended and all this stuff
(09:04):
because of basically owning up to yes, I took money.
I took riots from coaches to the airport and all
these things in.
Speaker 6 (09:10):
An effort to get more people involved in it.
Speaker 7 (09:12):
But you know, another big thing that she did right
away is she went to the media to.
Speaker 6 (09:17):
Talk about the threats that Patrick had reported.
Speaker 7 (09:19):
Beforehand from his teammate, the new guy that came in,
Harvey Thomas. And that's what I think really peaked media
interest because Patrick had never even played a game at Mailer.
He was sitting out a full year as a red shirt,
so nobody half the people on Waco didn't even know
who he was, that he was he on the team.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
Right That is UT I still think that my and bliss.
You you just draw him on.
Speaker 3 (09:40):
It's like, just give him enough rope, just keeping it.
He can't.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
He looks as ugly from the two thousand and three
footage talking about her as he does.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
Now.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
Yeah, for the man that went on this journey of
hope and redemption, I felt that you he the camera
just captures his awful evil as whole self.
Speaker 3 (09:56):
He's just help covering he can't cover it.
Speaker 1 (09:58):
He just wants that fame and success or.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
What because Jesus told him was okay to say he's
sorry now, So now he's back on the That's where
the whole thing started.
Speaker 1 (10:05):
And I personally thought that I was bom right.
Speaker 8 (10:13):
And the funny part is, you know, usually that's it's
the end of the story, but here there are several
ends of the story. Like Pat says, usually the murder
is the end of the story, and then you make
the documentary and that's the end of the story. Yeah,
but we premiered this documentary, you know, a couple of
weeks ago, and that was was just the start of
another chance.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
Now he resigned, I thought, yeah, yeah, he's They did
cost ume after the documentary, he mysteriously quit as soon
as he came out, he resigned like that.
Speaker 4 (10:38):
The president of that university and the ad are are
scene saying, well, you know, it's important to win basketball game. Yes, yeah,
which is shocking at the end of all.
Speaker 5 (10:47):
This, and it's sort of the kiss of death.
Speaker 8 (10:49):
You see, the university president comes out two weeks before
our premiere and says, oh, I'm comfortable Dave Bliss.
Speaker 5 (10:56):
He's a new man. He's not the same Dave Bliss.
Speaker 1 (10:59):
You know.
Speaker 8 (10:59):
Fast forward or the first business day after the documenting premieres,
here's a statement from that same university president saying, we've
accepted Dave Bliss his president.
Speaker 3 (11:12):
Because the camera.
Speaker 4 (11:13):
Don't as shocking as all that is. There's another pillar
this whole story, which I mean, it's very complex obviously
and how detailed you get into a book. From another
pillar is the murder investigation and how and how this
seemed to be dragging on the investigation to begin with,
but then as Pat details in the opening of the film,
it went away very quickly and it got quieted down
(11:33):
very quickly, and things moved on. Everybody moved on, and
this Dotson kid was convicted and he was put away
no appeal.
Speaker 1 (11:39):
Real crazy because they wanted the headlines gone.
Speaker 3 (11:42):
They did the rare.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
Asked the judge to give out the sentence instead of
letting the jurors decide, right, and then that judge went
on vacation and then Jupial Court judge, you got popped
into that spot to make this decisionkwinkydink. If Paul Baylor
Baylor all by the way, Baylor Baylor up and down
the line.
Speaker 1 (12:01):
You haven't figured it out yet. We're giving away spoilers,
so if you want to.
Speaker 3 (12:04):
Like watch this though, even with spoilers, I.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
Think it's an amazing story.
Speaker 2 (12:09):
Super it's the ugliest sports story that I can remember
from the college cover up, I think so.
Speaker 1 (12:14):
And yeah, it's called Disgrace. It's a documentary on Showtime.
Uh So I want to warn people giving away spoilers.
So now Dave Bliss, the coach wants to cover this
whole fucking thing up because they have now found out
that you know, uh, he was he didn't have a scholarship,
so he you know, they had to make it look
like he was paying for his tuition. So then Dave
(12:36):
Bliss the coach comes up with this story that he
was selling drugs out of his apartment, and then like
I think Vic said it. You know, he was telling
his players in front of him that, look, it's our
word against his, and he can't he can't dead. He's
a dead guy. He can't defend himself.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
He came the cornerstone of his awful argument was to
blame the dead guy and what he say telling coaches
and other players. I mean, it's just, oh, you just
want to just slap the ship out of him.
Speaker 4 (13:04):
Through the whole time, Vicky have a way of making
such morbid thing sound.
Speaker 3 (13:10):
With my job.
Speaker 9 (13:11):
So that's the college culture though. He's like that because
you can get away with anything.
Speaker 1 (13:15):
That's why this story is so great, because we all
know this, the horseshit is happening at so many universities,
are covering up all sorts of things. And then and
then when you when you think that the story can't
get any any crazier, then you got the assistant coach
that wire taps himself. He goes and gets himself a
little recorder and a microphone and thinks, Okay, if I
put it up near my armpit, he'll never know, and
(13:36):
then starts recording. The head coach, Dave Bliss as it's
coming up with this fucking alibi, all.
Speaker 2 (13:42):
This crazy stuff in all the meetings. The dudes like,
I can't just sit here and let this go. Blame
the dead guy. That's the first thing out of your mouth, Really, dick.
Speaker 1 (13:51):
Obviously that guy wasn't a Bailo grand.
Speaker 3 (13:53):
So, so theyre all, no, no, he wasn't. I don't
think he.
Speaker 4 (13:58):
Was.
Speaker 3 (13:58):
Okay, thank you, all right, my bad.
Speaker 9 (14:01):
He ain't going to any alumni part.
Speaker 1 (14:04):
Yeah, well that comes out in the film too. He
never got another coaching job. He's teaching Baylor.
Speaker 7 (14:10):
The Baylor should erect a damn statue in in Rolse's likeness,
you know, because he was. He's the one guy that
did the right thing in this entire situation. And those tapes,
you know that those tapes have never There's maybe one
or two sound bites that got released from those tapes
in two thousand and three, so ninety nine percent of
what you hear in the documentary has never been heard publicly.
And it's so important what those tapes do because it
(14:32):
puts to you, as the audience member, into the locker
room with Bliss, and you hear what this guy is doing.
And the more shocking thing is crazy. Bliss is saying
these terrible things about a dead player. He's the players
that he's trying to get to do this are willingly
going along with it. They're saying, yeah, the guy our
teammate that we we just hung out with them a
month ago and we're close with screw them, Yeah, are you.
(14:55):
I'm not going to be a starter next year. You're
going to pay me the list? Okay, whatever you want
me to say.
Speaker 6 (14:59):
It's believable.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
So was Patrick Denney dealing drugs at all? Because then
when you talk to Dave Bliss, the coach, he said, look,
everyone knows. That's why I haven't been arrested or charged
with anything, because everyone knows he was dealing drugs.
Speaker 6 (15:13):
No, he wasn't at all.
Speaker 7 (15:14):
We didn't find one person I talked to, even people
off the records of the teammates that didn't want to
go on camera. I told me that there was no
evidence at all whatsoever of him ever selling drugs. Everybody
on the team was smoking a lot of pot, even
doing a little bit harder drugs, but there was never
any evidence that he was, wow, actually selling drugs. And
at the time that they've said that, at the first interview.
(15:36):
We hadn't talked to the police yet, which is why
that was such a confusing and shocking statement to me.
And I'm kind of bumbling as he's going into that
when he said the police knew that and that's why
they never charged me with a felony. I'm thinking, oh
my god, you're telling me the police are in on this, right,
you know, how far does this thing go? And now
and you're saying that you never came up with the idea.
(15:57):
The internal head of the investigation committee for Baylor came
up with that idea. You just jumped on it. Those
are amazing statements, right, Undo.
Speaker 1 (16:08):
Answered, yeah, would right, right, wow. But he said, oh,
it was common knowledge. Everyone knows he was selling drugs
out of that apartment. He's slimy man, Dave Bliss the slide.
You never want to question anyone's reasoning reason for finding Jesus,
but I am extremely suspicious in this case. I don't think, yeah,
that's good, you know what that Yeah, they come with you.
(16:32):
I'll just say too that it's a little too convenient
that he found Jesus because uh, you know, it's made
some of this stuff go away, I.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
Guess, And Carlton Johnson, pat he is he just I mean,
Carlton Dotson, is he just drugged up somewhere on Thorstein
sitting somewhere and can't talk?
Speaker 7 (16:48):
You know, he can talk, he can talk. He declined
every every one of our requests to talk. And and
you know, I have no idea really why. I don't
know if he's on any medication or anything right now.
I know he's in a prison that I don't believe
has any kind of mental health facility or anything like that.
But the trial and the lack of a trial with
Carlton was the most surprising thing that we found making
(17:10):
the film. I had no idea about what had happened
behind the scenes. And when we get the DA at
the time John Secrest to go on camera and talk
about Carlton's two court appointed Baylor.
Speaker 3 (17:20):
Yeah, that guy was amazing.
Speaker 5 (17:21):
I love that.
Speaker 3 (17:22):
Yeah, he was excellent.
Speaker 7 (17:23):
Absolutely, Yeah, it's amazing what he's saying that that they're saying, Hey,
that's not let's not take this to trial.
Speaker 6 (17:29):
This is making Baylor look bad.
Speaker 7 (17:30):
It's unbelievable that he was he was willing to say
that on camera. I mean, that's huge.
Speaker 3 (17:35):
Well, you could tell the guys.
Speaker 2 (17:36):
You know, he's a professional legal, brilliant thinking man for
a long long time, and all these things they were
throwing at and was just blowing his head off. He
was trying to come up with others, Well, has this
ever happened another time? He's like, I've seen things take
six weeks and they wanted this done in three days.
Shop Yeah, yeah, but he was It was funny to
watch him sort of get worked up at the stupidity
(17:57):
of what he was being told, like, this is making
Baylor look bad.
Speaker 3 (17:59):
You need to do rush this on off.
Speaker 1 (18:01):
And in a way, Carlton lucked out because a lot
of people feel like you should have gotten much sixty six,
all right, we could say, I guess, fuck it, sixty
years and they ended up giving him thirty five. He's
available for parole in twenty twenty one.
Speaker 6 (18:13):
Wasn't, so that's twenty one.
Speaker 7 (18:15):
But you know what the flip side of that coin is,
there's there's a pretty strong, i think, legal argument for that,
considering what the.
Speaker 6 (18:22):
Situation was with Carlon, three different doctors to.
Speaker 7 (18:26):
Stand trial and the witnesses that were going to be called,
that you could convince one jury out of twelve that
this guy is insane and he's off and the fact
that they didn't even want to bring that to trial.
You just have to ask yourself, who does that?
Speaker 6 (18:38):
Who benefits most from that right.
Speaker 8 (18:40):
And compleat Taylor who pleads guilty without a plea agreement.
Speaker 5 (18:45):
Yeah, sort of like day before trial, We'll changed my mind.
Speaker 1 (18:48):
There's so much going on with this film. So one
thing I'm confused about, why. What was the motive for
Carlton to kill his friend Patrick Denney.
Speaker 7 (18:58):
That's a million dollar question. There was never a mo
have presented. Nobody knows why. And you know when you
set up that Patrick and Carlton were fearful of the
same teammate there, you know him all of a sudden
turning turning a gun on Patrick is never explained and
if there's never even Yeah, they were they were scared
of ausible motives presented.
Speaker 1 (19:17):
Sorry, they were both scared of Harvey Thomas, who took
a line detective test and man, he was proud that
he passed that. Oh he says it in the film.
Speaker 6 (19:28):
I think he's an interesting guy.
Speaker 8 (19:29):
He is a great liar though, by the way, very
convincing liar because you watch it a couple of times,
and you believe, you know, everyone else in the docs
says he threatened the players, he says, straight face, and
I want to believe him.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
Did you think you think someone got to do you
think someone got to Carlton and basically made him so
paranoid and and and and convinced him that Patrick was
up to something.
Speaker 7 (19:52):
You know, I think it's a possibility. I think, you know,
when when you look at what happened, the only person
that puts Carlton at the scene is carl There's no
physical evidence that ties into the scene. And in the
same case, there's no physical evidence that excludes anybody else
from being there. Right, So, when you don't have a
motive and you don't have the evidence, that is, if
he doesn't talk to the FBI, you know, nothing happens,
(20:14):
He doesn't get arrested. And even after he gets arrested.
John Segus the Diego's into great detail about how that
FBI confession can't even make it into the courtroom in Texas,
so they literally are walking in there they had nothing.
Speaker 5 (20:25):
There's a little of that nothing.
Speaker 1 (20:27):
There's a little bit of making a murder in this thing,
a little bit.
Speaker 2 (20:30):
Yeah, I think you know three around the time, and
was there the speculation that maybe he acted like he
was friends with Pat, but he thought Pat was going
to take a spot on the team, and it was
all a whole try to trick him where he could
eventually kill him because he didn't want to lose his scholarship.
Speaker 3 (20:44):
Dude, any of that.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
So he's thinking if he kills him, he'll be in
the starting line up, exactly.
Speaker 3 (20:48):
No, I believe three at the time. That was the
first rumor. They came out of jealous.
Speaker 7 (20:54):
Right, No, you're right, that rumor came out, and we
kind of got into the We were told some information
from a bar Rouse about how that rumor got started,
and apparently Dave Bliss didn't We couldn't sit this in
the film in a way that made sense. But Bliss
Bliss was giving anonymous quotes to journalists as an anonymous
(21:15):
source for what was going on. That was one of
them that it was a competition. Patrick and Carlton didn't
play the same position. There was no competition. Wow, Harvey
and Carlton played the same position. And yeah, there was
no There was no evidence that I think Bliss that
(21:38):
even he had communicated or the allegation of the least
that he put out a rumor to the press too
and and did actually say this on camera, that Carlton
was already off the team, that he had kicked him off.
A bar Rows disputed that every step along the way,
there's no way Carlton had a locker. He wasn't off
the team. So his suggestion was that once this thing
started getting out, Bliss very carefully was planting stories the
(22:00):
media to make Patrick look bad and to make Carlton
look bad, and that he had done the right thing
and already kicked him off the team. In the reality,
according to a bar was that never happened.
Speaker 1 (22:09):
And Patrick Denney is it his uh father stepfather that's
in the film Stepfather, Thank You. He basically says, if
I ever see Dave Bliss, he wanted to say, I'll
kill him, but he said, I knock his teeth. Yeah,
I mean, because are the stories that Dave Bliss decided
to it, you know, smear his his reputation.
Speaker 5 (22:28):
Right, There's there's a lot of tragedies in the film.
Speaker 8 (22:30):
I mean, you obviously have a murder victim, you have
another young man who's spending a long time in jail,
you've got the girlfriend. But a bar Rouse is really,
you know, coming out suffered. You know, it was not
part of the situation you talk about sort of an
innocent bystander got sucked in and still pays every day
of his life. When you get to that final scene
(22:51):
and you see Mike Krzyzewsky's.
Speaker 1 (22:55):
Who continue, Yeah, Yeah, there's a.
Speaker 2 (23:02):
Yeah, there's a who's who of college coaches sitting there
saying A bar Rouse did the wrong thing right. Would
work with Dave Blithe, Sampson and h.
Speaker 8 (23:17):
And go ahead, Yeah, And Theyski says, I, you know,
I believe, he says, pat correct me if I'm wrong.
One of them says, I I would work with Dave Bliss,
but I would not work with a bar Rouse.
Speaker 6 (23:30):
I haven't.
Speaker 7 (23:30):
I don't remember if he said that. I know specifically
said a bar did not do the right thing. If
he had, if I had a coach that recorded me,
there's no way he would be on my staff. And
interesting backstory there is Bliss got his first coaching job
with Bobby Knight at Army when was there as well,
and then Bliss followed followed Knight to Indiana before he
(23:52):
got the head coaching job at Oklahoma. So Bliss literally
used to work with and has been friends with Beeheim
and Samson.
Speaker 6 (23:59):
Ever, so all.
Speaker 7 (24:00):
Three of those guys that are on there that are
slamming a bar have relationships with Bliss.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
Well that's that is one of the most powerful scenes
in the whole documentary because it really shows you the
culture and how everyone protects their own no matter what,
they all understand the game. In the end, all they
want to do is win it. This is about morality
and doing the right thing. It's like, no, don't you
understand now, right, we're all on the same page. A bar.
Speaker 7 (24:28):
You know, Beeheim had over one hundred wins vacated, you know,
last season of the season before for getting busted for violations,
and then Sampson got a five year ban for what
he was doing at Oklahoma at the time, and now
he's back coaching University of Houston.
Speaker 1 (24:44):
I think it's silly when they take the wins away,
so dumb. Yeah, everyone knows they won those games. I mean,
just put your ask records say they're overall hundreds. Yeah, Okay, Anyway,
you guys did a great documentary, that's for sure.
Speaker 8 (25:01):
Well, Unfortunately, you know one thing that you know, Pat
does well in the end, and we didn't want to
oversell this is you know, make a brief comment about
the culture of Baylor, right, you know, and here we
are fourteen years later, and it's a it's a different
different sport and a different.
Speaker 5 (25:20):
Kind of scandal, but the culture is the same.
Speaker 3 (25:23):
Brows the football coach.
Speaker 2 (25:24):
Apparently it's okay for you football players just laugh women around,
and he's just he's having to resign. He's done his
own little tap dance here in the past. But six
or eight months something like that.
Speaker 8 (25:33):
That's right, and you know almost countless number of alleged
sexual assaults that were covered.
Speaker 1 (25:38):
Up, right, it is continue to get it.
Speaker 5 (25:40):
It's a cancer and you know, let.
Speaker 1 (25:42):
You explain that perfectly in the film. You gotta get
you gotta get all the cancer.
Speaker 3 (25:47):
Or I was putting it on paulsing back and forth.
Speaker 1 (25:52):
I was going back for my phone, get ringing. I'm like,
I'm watching something.
Speaker 2 (26:00):
Really yelling at my friends as it started culminating, I'm
getting deeper and deeper into it. I want to slap
Dave Blizz of the screen. I'm so mad, like a
nurse ratchet thing.
Speaker 3 (26:11):
How can you hire that guy?
Speaker 1 (26:12):
Get that's because because this is what it is in
college sports, we all know it. And when at any cost.
Speaker 8 (26:20):
Pat, I think you're going to have to send some
of the unused footage, you know, those a couple of hours.
Speaker 1 (26:29):
Basketball vic underwear.
Speaker 3 (26:31):
For a week watch, I certainly will pack.
Speaker 1 (26:36):
Is it painful to edit your your work? You must
have been thinking, Man, this is this stuff I just can't,
for for time reasons put in this film.
Speaker 7 (26:44):
Oh yeah, there was a There was a whole bunch
of things that I would have loved to put in there.
But you know, they can be either you don't have
the right people talking about it, or it can turn
into a completely separate tangent that just stops all momentum
and flow for the story. Right, So you know, there
a lot of that stuff, and you know, this film
evolved from the first first interview we did until we
(27:05):
locked the cut, and that was a two year process.
Speaker 6 (27:08):
And when we.
Speaker 7 (27:08):
Started shooting, the sexual assault scandal hadn't broke yet. But
one one thing that was crazy that happened behind the
scenes was when that happened. You know, Bliss calls me
and he says, man, can you believe what's going on
with Baylor in this art Brille situation, and I'm like, yeah,
this is this is insane that it's happening again. And
he says, I tell you what, he knows everything that happened.
(27:30):
There's no way that the head coach doesn't know what's
actually going on.
Speaker 6 (27:34):
They know everything.
Speaker 1 (27:36):
Want this guy, he's a strange break.
Speaker 4 (27:42):
And the beauty of the whole thing is that Pat
didn't put that in the film right fact, like, there's
no not even any need.
Speaker 1 (27:51):
You put that over the credit right there somewhere inble
have a bonus desk. I think we did the documentary justice,
But I want to ask about the kid they threw
on the Greyhound bus. Who was the cause?
Speaker 5 (28:08):
Arry Johnson, Larry Johnson, thank you.
Speaker 1 (28:11):
Larry Johnson was the cousin of Harvey Thomas, right okay,
and he was a shady character. And then the assistant coach.
His job was to get that fucking guy in a
greyhound a bar, the same.
Speaker 2 (28:22):
Good guy we talked about charge for getting up to
the bus to what do we know about that guy?
Speaker 7 (28:27):
The other thing that we know is that as soon
as Harvey showed up, Larry came down. He wasn't on
the team. He wasn't trying to get on the team.
He was just kind of, you know, Harvey's shadow. And
almost immediately an altercation happens between Harvey, Larry Patrick, and Carlton,
and Patrick and Carlton immediately went to the coaches, told
(28:48):
him what's going on, and that's you know why they
ended up buying guns, which neither one of them had
ever had before or owned before.
Speaker 6 (28:54):
And then you.
Speaker 7 (28:55):
Get to that picture a spoiler alert at the end,
though we took us forever to find that. Everybody kept saying,
there's a picture of Larry standing behind Bliss at a
press conference, and when you see the picture, you're like,
why in the world is Dave Bliss standing in front
of cameras with this guy Larry Johnson wearing a Baylor
shirt behind him when Bliss had just been told that
(29:18):
he put a gun to the head of the missing
player that he's having the press conference.
Speaker 6 (29:23):
Yeah, it's like, what is going on?
Speaker 7 (29:25):
It's the most insane scenario and creepy picture ever. And
we found that finally right honestly, right at the last minute.
Speaker 1 (29:32):
I'll answer the question, because I think these guys feel
like they're untouchable. Is there that much of a bubble
in the universe.
Speaker 3 (29:38):
Oh yeah, Baylor is the Baptist bubble. But Baylor is
the buckle of the Bible belt.
Speaker 9 (29:45):
To do an old joke, but for this all to work,
that means everyone's going to be involved, from the guy
that tells the ice cream to the cops and born.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
He got enough paper on the old boy networking out
in Texas. He kindt seven or eight people. That's all
it takes. Everybody gets in line.
Speaker 1 (30:00):
Everybody just winks at each other.
Speaker 5 (30:01):
Actly.
Speaker 3 (30:02):
That's aust I can't have the grain and goat look bad, right.
Speaker 9 (30:06):
It's that's It's that simple, right, It's just town pride
or all of it.
Speaker 3 (30:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 7 (30:11):
Well, yeah, a huge school in a tiny little town,
you know, competing in the Big twelve, with a whole
lot of money at stake and a whole lot of pride, right,
and yeah, everybody's everybody's looking out for for the school.
Speaker 1 (30:25):
How many of these stories just go untold, like how
many worses watched up or dead or no one even knows.
Speaker 2 (30:31):
Well, it's the first one where somebody killed the teammates, right,
And I think it is the worst one.
Speaker 3 (30:36):
And I hope that God nothing.
Speaker 1 (30:37):
You protect the program and the university at all costs.
That's what you learn over and over again, because this
is happening all over the place. No wonder the I mean,
not necessarily murdered, but all sorts of other things.
Speaker 9 (30:47):
But no wonder these kids they go into the NFL,
they go into the NBA Dony thing, and they end
up in trouble instantly because once they're out of that bubble,
you you.
Speaker 3 (30:54):
Got a free pass wherever.
Speaker 2 (30:55):
You think, the free pass will just continue, right, So
they protected you at Baylor.
Speaker 3 (30:59):
Do you think the Nicks ain't gonna take care of me?
I can get my day out. But once you're on, you're,
you know, just some stupid ship. But but yeah, you're
the common sense does not prevail in this area, car Ship.
Speaker 1 (31:11):
Everyone keeps their mouths shut. What's your thoughts on Joe Paterno,
considering you, you kind of went deep into the you know,
into this university, pat Is that for me or anyone? Yeah?
Speaker 7 (31:25):
Yeah, I think I think I've learned, you know, just
talking with people, you know, in these big time programs,
and even you know, from Bliss's mouth himself. You know,
I think it's unlikely that any head coach does not
know what's going on, especially what his assistant coaches are doing.
It seems like it's it's the like the pinnacle of
a totalitarian situation, right, and there's these schools give these
(31:48):
coaches carpe blanche to do anything they feel is right,
and they have total control over the program. So I
find it unlikely that Paterno was not I mean not
looking at evidence or anything, but that he was I
did not know what was going on, or hadn't heard
multiple times, would have been going on.
Speaker 1 (32:05):
Amazing, simply amazing. Wow, guys, this was great. The documentary
is called Disgrace, now available on Showtime anytime app on
demand obviously, and anything else you want to say about.
Speaker 3 (32:18):
It or what are you working on next?
Speaker 7 (32:19):
Pat, Yeah, we're working on another documentary series, but uh,
it hasn't been announced yet, so I gotta gotta keep
that a secret.
Speaker 3 (32:27):
Thanks.
Speaker 1 (32:27):
Ma, come on, come on, I'm sorry, because we just
sold you. Give us something back now.
Speaker 2 (32:36):
Animal, vegetable, general, something back now.
Speaker 5 (32:42):
It's gonna get mean again.
Speaker 1 (32:44):
Question for Chris, you run sports over there right now?
Speaker 4 (32:47):
It's actually Steven sitting across from He's in charge of
all of our sports.
Speaker 1 (32:50):
For I'm sorry, I'm in charge of the Opie show. Yeah,
I mean someone we just signed him. No one wants.
Speaker 5 (33:08):
How look you can play for tailors, Chris, What do
you do? Then I do the communications?
Speaker 1 (33:13):
All right? Cool? So you run the sports program? I
do know because I have a question for you guys,
kind of trying to dip your toes into the whole
thirty for thirty thing.
Speaker 8 (33:22):
Uh, you know, there are just so many great stories
out there. You know this one is you know, it
works as a sports story. It's a crime drama.
Speaker 5 (33:28):
It's it's sobriety. You know.
Speaker 8 (33:30):
That's why it's so tough to make good fictional sports
stories because the true.
Speaker 5 (33:36):
Real ones, you know, they were better.
Speaker 8 (33:38):
Absolutely, you cannot write better fiction than the actual nonfiction
real life.
Speaker 3 (33:44):
If Disgrace was a fiction, no one would watch it.
Speaker 2 (33:46):
True, it would have that shit lifetime movie feel about it.
Speaker 3 (33:52):
My dumb cousin would tell me the story. I'm like,
it's a dumb story.
Speaker 5 (33:58):
From my perspective.
Speaker 4 (33:59):
Telling people and press, hey guys, you should cover this
documentary is Uh, it's difficult to do a story like
the solid two thousand and three outs have been covered.
Oh there were tapes revealed all Yeah, I remember that story,
so they don't want to cover This documentary has news
and as Steven had said, it has advanced this story.
It really didn't end. It didn't end after we premiered.
(34:19):
So that that what made this one different. Like you say,
thirty for thirty or other docs that we've even done
on Showtime, they chronicle may be a great moment in
sports or a tragic moment in sports, but it's in
the past. This was this was ongoing because of the
things Dave listened, because of the things the district attorney said,
John secrets. That's what made it much more relevant.
Speaker 1 (34:39):
I'm a huge fan of documentaries. Give me one that
is on Showtime that I should say.
Speaker 8 (34:44):
I would would say prison Fighters prison Fighters with the title.
Speaker 3 (34:53):
You got one?
Speaker 6 (34:54):
Yeah, No, prison Fighters is great?
Speaker 5 (34:55):
What was prison Fighters? Prison Fighters is about a story?
Speaker 8 (35:00):
Well, it's a it's a kickboxing tournament within the Tye prisons,
sort of innermurals, prison against prison. Yes, with the twist
being the winner of the tournament gets out of jail.
Speaker 5 (35:13):
What real time Hunger Games, That's what it is. It's
like jump.
Speaker 3 (35:19):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (35:24):
Roland had the press release on this months ago.
Speaker 10 (35:26):
I swear you we have a miscommunication.
Speaker 1 (35:45):
Said we have to wrap it up.
Speaker 4 (35:46):
This interview is oat Roland.
Speaker 1 (35:49):
All right, My bad and Prison Fighters is on Showtime
right now, is on demanded premiere a couple of months
ago and February and again it is.
Speaker 8 (35:58):
It is actually a story which again if you wrote it,
I mean I have seen I feel like it is
a Steven Sagall movie or John Cludbund somewhere, but.
Speaker 5 (36:06):
That it's true. Guys in for murder.
Speaker 8 (36:09):
He has the ability with one fight away from getting
out free records, clean your rates.
Speaker 1 (36:15):
So you lose the final fight you're in, you're back,
you're doing your twine or nothing. They'll like give you
less time or maybe unable or something.
Speaker 5 (36:25):
Nothing back to that.
Speaker 1 (36:27):
Wow, that's really losing.
Speaker 5 (36:33):
Yeah, So you're not.
Speaker 4 (36:34):
Talking about a petty criminal like you said.
Speaker 1 (36:36):
This is a murderer.
Speaker 4 (36:38):
This guy he stabs someone at a night club. He
was eighteen or nineteen years old. He got convicted to
sixteen years or eleven years, and here he was. If
he goes through the story, we follow him through his training,
through the fights, through the tournament. He actually fights an
American Muay Thai fighter from Kansas who lives and trains
and fights professional Muay Thai in Thailand.
Speaker 3 (36:58):
What Yeah, and Kim Yep, I know what I'm doing tonight.
Speaker 5 (37:02):
Yeah, the app.
Speaker 3 (37:03):
I have the app.
Speaker 1 (37:05):
So I'm definitely watching prison So we're gonna have to
have those guys on soon Rolling.
Speaker 8 (37:10):
He's out, we can bring him in and the director
of that film has an incredible story which we'll say
for you.
Speaker 4 (37:19):
On how he got access to the prison system in Thailand.
You don't just go over there and they let the
cameras and microphones. Okay, sure, No, he worked for it.
Speaker 5 (37:28):
Okay, you're gonna hear that one.
Speaker 3 (37:29):
That sounds really cool in the release, we'll put that
in public.
Speaker 5 (37:34):
Over.
Speaker 1 (37:36):
I got some good TV coming up.
Speaker 5 (37:38):
Hey, you invited me? Oh no, we love that ship.
Speaker 3 (37:44):
The only things undering with him.
Speaker 1 (37:45):
Was him everyone rolling, We're good listened. Prison Fighter sounds amazing,
But what is amazing his disgrace. We saw that today
and I'm telling you, man, uh, Pat, it was You
did a great job with that documentary.
Speaker 3 (38:06):
Thank you, thanks Man. That was awesome.
Speaker 1 (38:08):
Right now we'll talk again, all right, Pat, it was awesome.
Speaker 6 (38:10):
Thanks guys.
Speaker 1 (38:11):
All right, I'm going to hang up on Pat and
then we're gonna say thanks to Chris and Steven. Thanks,
and that's it. I guess go to show Time on
demand and check out dis Grace Killing. Right, you come
across one of those stories, you have a phone number. Well, somehow,
I don't think Roland's calling me anything. I don't know.
Speaker 3 (38:37):
I fucked up.
Speaker 5 (38:41):
He's doing me.
Speaker 3 (38:44):
In case you're wondering, what's going on with you?
Speaker 1 (38:47):
All right, why don't we take a break. Okay, thanks guys,
all right, we'll be right back. Stave right where you are.