SciComm Summer #19: Latif Nasser on Making "Radiolab"

Latif Nasser is the current co-host of the WNYC show Radiolab. Radiolab is probably the first podcast I was ever really a fan of. I've been listening since 2007 when it was hosted by Jad Abumrad and Robert Krulwich. It's an amazing show that leans on the incredible audio production to convey the wonder of science. The show has branched out to tell all kinds of stories--not just about science--but it's still one of the best science shows out there.

Latif came to Radiolab while working on his Ph.D. in the History of Science at Harvard. He eventually joined the show's team to report stories and occupy the role of Director of Research. In 2020, he joined Lulu Miller as co-host of the show. Also in 2020, he hosted a 6-episode show for Netflix: Connected: The Hidden Science of Everything. And I think I first really learned about Latif through an incredible (although not super science-y) series he produced, The Other Latif. Seriously, you have to check it out.

In our conversation, we talk about the philosophy of science communication, the role of narrative, and how Radiolab works. We also break down an episode that Latif reported in 2021, "Of Bombs and Butterflies."

You can find the rest of this summer's science communication podcast series here.

For a transcript of this episode, visit this episode's page at: http://opinionsciencepodcast.com/episodes/

Learn more about Opinion Science at http://opinionsciencepodcast.com/ and follow @OpinionSciPod on Twitter.

Episode Transcript

Andy Luttrell (00:09):
Hi, there You're back, or here for the first time
.
Either is fine with me, I'mjust happy to see you.
Okay, I've got to say I'm notsure I've ever been more nervous
to interview someone and notlike worried, nervous, but
excited nervous.
My guest this week is LatifNasser, who is currently one of
the hosts of the show Radiolab.
And here's the thing Radiolabis my jam.

(00:32):
I still have vivid memories ofjust listening to certain
episodes 10 years ago.
So let's go back to February2007.
I'm a freshman in art schooland it's going fine, and I don't
know if I like drank a Red Bullat 10 at night or what, but I
just could not convince my bodyto go to sleep.
I was up all night, truly untilmorning I was awake, trying to

(00:54):
stay quiet, with two roommatessleeping within 10 feet of me.
So I listened to a couple ofepisodes of this American Life
which I had just started gettinginto.
So that killed a couple hours.
And then I turned on this othershow that I had heard about,
radiolab.
It's like two in the morning,so why not?
Let's try it.
And I just remember beingcompletely swept away by this

(01:17):
show.
I had never heard anything elselike it.
It was immersive, captivating,awe-inspiring, and it taught me
new things about science.
That was their thingbroadcasting curious ideas from
math and science into your earsin a way that just grabs you.
And they've been doing it foryears.
So Lutthiff was not part of theRadiolab machine when I was

(01:39):
lying on a dorm room bed in 2007, but around 2010,.
When he was doing his PhD inthe history of science at
Harvard, he heard an episode ofRadiolab that covered the topic
of his eventual dissertation.
He started pitching themstories and eventually he became
Radiolab's director of research.
In 2020, he became a co-host.

(01:59):
Also in 2020, he hosted asix-episode podcast series
called the Other Lutthiff, whichis not particularly sciencey,
but it is incredible.
You should listen to it.
Also, also in 2020, he hosted asix-episode science program for
Netflix called Connected Alsogreat.
All of this is to say thatLutthiff is basically a dream

(02:20):
guest for a podcast on sciencecommunication.
So, yeah, I was excited to meethim.
I had heard his voice in myhead so much over the years and
what a pleasure to find that hewas just as kind and fun to talk
to as I suspected.
Okay, but you're not here tolisten to me.
I get that, so let's get rightinto it.
We talk about Lutthiff's story,how Radiolab works, how to tell

(02:43):
a science story, everything.
And here it is.
So the way I'm going to framethis question is if your life
was a biopic where everythingactually did flow one to the
next, what would those earlyscenes look like that make us go

(03:06):
oh, this guy is going to begreat at telling science stories
.
Eventually, what was going onin childhood, young adulthood,
what were you interested in?
Fascinated?

Latif Nasser (03:17):
I think the early scenes are.
It would be the most boringbiopic.
Everybody would walk out at thebeginning.
But because it's a happy fun, Ithink I had a great.
I had a wonderful grew up in animmigrant family in the suburbs
of Toronto.
Both my parents were very hardworking people but also kind of

(03:39):
sweet and curious andencouraging, and I think, even
more so than the sort oftraditional stereotypical
immigrant family.
Both my sister and I becamejournalists somehow, which is
like we didn't know anyjournalists.
That wasn't even an option.
I didn't know what I wanted todo.

(04:00):
I took one of those aptitudetests.
It told me to go into themilitary.
I was like that is, I don'tknow anything except that this
is wrong, that I do not belongin the military.
But I think probably the sceneyou would start for as the
budding science communicator wasme kind of in science class
coming in, especially in earlyhigh school, coming in really

(04:27):
excited, having like being onelike everybody, I think.
I think everybody is born thisway, which is that you're just
curious, there's a lot of thingsaround that make no sense and
it's like a lot of things towonder at a lot of things and
then just kind of like sittingin a high school, you know, like
just a normal, standard publichigh school science class, and

(04:49):
just like all of that excitementand love and enthusiasm, just
like slowly draining out of myface and like like I think that
I mean the way and I've saidthis before, but like I really
feel like it encapsulates, likewhat I felt like in that moment,
which is, like you, you come in, you're so excited and then the

(05:11):
on the first day of scienceclass, like they, like they said
this textbook on your desk andit's like here's a, here's a
stack of answers to questionsyou didn't even ask or care
about.
Like, like the you know themelting point of this, or the
you know what's the like I don'tknow what the boiling point of

(05:32):
like, I don't know what any ofthis stuff is.
I never asked these.
These aren't the questions Ihad, but these are the things
now I have to memorize.
Or do you know like, do kind oflike?
Yeah, I don't know the kind oflike, the meticulousness and the
like.
Like I don't know science.
Like I was so excited by theambitions, the questions of
science, but then the actualdoing of it.
I was like this is and the andthe way that it was taught to me

(05:55):
.
It just it like completely likeI was like this is not for me,
this is not for me, this hasnever been for me and I I was
wrong to think it.
Well, you know that sort offeeling.
And then, and then I was luckyenough to kind of switch modes,
weirdly, like the thing thatthen I then I fell into with
theater and this all I thinkvery much is relevant to science

(06:18):
, communication and the stuff.
The thing I fell in love withwas theater and was stories and
storytelling and I was like, oh,I just love, I love stories and
stories stick in my brain moreLike they, they just they.
They're easier to relate to andunderstand and comprehend,
where as science, it felt solike abstract and dry and dusty

(06:38):
and technical, whereas like,like, like I fell into theater
and I was like, oh, this is like, this is people who are right
in front of me and I can, I can,even if it's all pretend like I
can feel it.
And then kind of through aweird back door, like in college
, like I was taking this.
It was for like a sciencerequirement that I had to do.
I took this history of scienceclass and I was like, wait, a

(07:00):
second history of science, like,oh, that's like stories of
science.
And then I, and then I for a.
There was like a like optional,like project or final, whatever
assignment.
And then, and then, like I waswith a bunch of theater kids in
the class and they were like youcould put up, you could do a
play about a history of sciencething.

(07:20):
We did Bertolt Brecht's life ofGalileo and it was at that
moment where it all sort ofclicked for me, where I was like
, oh, like I can get that thosebig, the big ambition of science
, the big questions, the big,you know, like wondering at the
world, wondering about the world, like I can do all of that
stuff, but also, at the sametime, have it be about people

(07:42):
who are relatable, who I cantalk to, who I feel, who like,
and that'll actually stick in mybrain in a way, and so that I
don't know.
That to me was the.
I feel like the way that I tooka while for the pieces to come
together.
But those were the pieces whereI was like, oh, okay, I like
this part of this thing, I likethis part of this thing, and and
and history, theater, science,like, and is there a way to

(08:04):
weave all these together?
And then it turned out, weirdlythe way, the place that I could
do that best was in a totallyother field, which is journalism
.

Andy Luttrell (08:12):
What when you were doing theater?
What were you like?
What was the?

Latif Nasser (08:15):
oh, I wanted to be a playwright, like I just love
being a like like.
I love the idea of kind of likethe, like the, the, the.
The playwright that I reallylove the most and kind of was
aspiring to be like was wasGeorge Bernard Shaw, where it
was like oh, here's like, here'sa guy who could take.
I mean, he was kind of like asocialist and like he was like a

(08:39):
, he was like a political writerin a way, but like he would
take an issue and he would justbe like okay, let me like, let
me like explode that out intodifferent perspectives, and then
I'll just have them talk toeach other and kind of debate
one another, but like in a story.
And that's kind of what I do now.
Like it's like.
It's like oh, I'm going to takeother people's voices and I'm

(09:02):
going to write these otherpeople and they turn out to be
real people, not pretendcharacters but and I have to
take more care with them but butlike I'm kind of writing with
their words into one another andhaving them debate one another
in a kind of narrative shape.
Like I kind of feel like that'sthat's sort of the yeah, that's
sort of the the genesis andinspiration, and like, like I

(09:23):
wanted to be a playwright.
I wanted to write with otherpeople's words, and now that's
kind of what I do.

Andy Luttrell (09:26):
I feel like would you ever do something that's
more fiction oriented?

Latif Nasser (09:32):
Eventually, yeah, I think there's definitely, yeah
, for sure, for sure.
I have, oh man, I have so manyideas and visions and half
started projects that I'm likeyou know, that are still like
halfway between being a glint inmy eye and being like a draft
on paper, but like, yeah,there's, there's a lot of things

(09:54):
that I think especially in inscience, where there's so many
things, I mean so many of thetopics we do, like I think I'm
drawn to stories that are likedramatic and maybe, you know,
cinematic or theatrical way, andlike that you, you can't always
get the thing you know, thatthat you want, I don't know.

(10:17):
Yeah, I think fictionalizing,like there's so many things that
you there's a limit to what youcan actually know, and then and
then when, like, but I'm stillhungry, like I still want more,
so like why can't I just imagineit like I, like I, yeah, I'm
drawn by that all the time.

Andy Luttrell (10:35):
So if we, if we fast-forward to now, yeah, how
would you describe what you donow Like?
What is your job entail today?

Latif Nasser (10:43):
Yeah.
So in particular at radio labthere's sort of two parts of my
job.
I guess mostly one is as areporter and I I pitch my own
stories, I report my own stories, I help produce my own stories
Not like to a far lesser degreethe producing and yeah, so and

(11:04):
that that all is like a themajority of my job, because
that's the part I love and thenalso I'm a host, which is to say
I'm kind of like I help kind ofshape the editorial vision of
the show.
I help, like, hopefully, mentorand nurture other other folks
on staff and and outside theshow and try to kind of, yeah,

(11:29):
try to put stuff out there as a,as a show that that you can't
find anywhere else and storiesthat really will will make
people see the world in a, youknow, in a whole new way.
I don't know, maybe that'svague and highfalutin or
something.

Andy Luttrell (11:44):
I mean it.
So I came to radio lab in 2006I think I was a freshman in
college.

Latif Nasser (11:51):
Oh, before me you.
You've been listening before.
Before I was listening.

Andy Luttrell (11:55):
Yeah, sure, and it it still remains in a league
of its own.
Like there's, there's justsomething about it that's like
it established this tone andvoice and it it's shifted over
time but it's never straightfrom like just being what it is
and that's sort of like itmorphs, but it doesn't morph
into something that's alreadyout there, like it's evolving in

(12:15):
a brand new direction.

Latif Nasser (12:17):
High compliment, and from such a I feel like a
connoisseur of sciencecommunication as yourself, it's
a high praise.

Andy Luttrell (12:26):
So if we think about like how to do that, how
to pull that off and tell thesekinds of stories, I maybe want
to get into nuts and bolts likedecisions you make when you put
these stories together, actuallybefore we get there.
One of the things that I wasthinking when you were
describing your role issomething I heard you say you
were distinguishing betweenwriting a dissertation yeah and

(12:47):
reporting stories for a year,and a critical difference is
that you're doing one of thosethings completely by yourself
yeah and you're doing the other,yeah on a team, yeah, and so,
like if you're to weigh the prosand cons of having complete
control and driving this wholething yourself versus being a
team player, what's thedifference between those two
ways?

Latif Nasser (13:06):
Oh it is.
That is such a crucialdifference and and to me I think
it's something for, especiallyif we're talking to kind of
people out there who arethinking of getting into this
field or thinking of what, what,what sort of way they want to
get into this field, that issuch a crucial difference and
it's such a personal,idiosyncratic thing for me.

(13:28):
Writing a dissertation, which Idid for years, labored over it,
you know, doing originalresearch on a story, it it is
amazing to have the freedom italso, I mean, you can kind of
drown in the freedom of like oh,I can, I can research anything
like, like, even if, you know,I'll solicit advice from people.

(13:49):
But I don't have to take itlike I can.
I can, I can forge my own path,I can frame things how I want,
I can pitch them where I want.
I can, I can carve them, youknow, carve up this idea here.
This I'm putting on.
This is a tweet, this is a.
You know, this is a article.
This is a podcast.
This is a.
This thing is that you can kindof you have this infinite
freedom, I mean, as long as youcan feed yourself, I guess, but,

(14:10):
uh, but to me that all of thatfreedom.
It was the kind of the, thelike.
I was just in cold libraries bymyself all the time.
The, the cold and theloneliness Like it broke me like
I and and also even after thatI tried to sort of be a

(14:31):
freelancer.
I was a freelance journalistfor maybe a year or two and that
was really hard.
That was so hard.
You're just kind of waiting onemails from people and you are
yeah.
I don't know, there was a kindof I Don't know, and it almost
like like doing originalresearch.
And then and then when you findsomething incredible, amazing,

(14:54):
so exciting that you want toshare with us, like I would go
to my then girlfriend, now wife,and I'm like, oh my god, I
found this amazing thing.
And she'd like great, great,but I like can you pick up the
milk or whatever, and so like itjust was a thing.
That was, yeah, it felt likeyou were sort of in it alone and
it was a quite lonely feelingand and that was a feeling where

(15:15):
I was like I don't, I don'twant to do this.
And then what I noticed,starting to do stories with
radio lab in other places, whereI was like, oh, this, like I
Can trade some of that autonomyfor both, camaraderie, being on
a team where I, you know you can, you can get in the weeds with

(15:36):
people and, and you know, justlike, have fun.
But then also, like, whenyou're doing it with the right
people who are kind but alsocritical but also Competent, who
know like they can takesomething and make it so much
better than you ever could onyour own.
And there are definitely, youknow in that, in that Jumble, in

(16:00):
that, in that collective making, there are compromises for sure
.
Like there are things that youlove that get cut.
There are things that you, youknow, big ideas you have that
you know don't yeah, that don'tmake it.
And you also have to beassertive in certain ways and
you also have to be, you know,you have to really like fight
for your own but ultimately,like if you're, you know you're

(16:23):
on the right team when you lookaround and you're like I like
all these people and they'rehelping me make something better
than I could make all by myself, and and that to me is like
that to me is the sort of thebest of both worlds.
But then there are, equally,I've seen other people and
people who have done very wellwho are more kind of like the
loneliness didn't Affect as much, and they, they, they really

(16:44):
value that autonomy and they,they, they do so well with it.
They're really able to kind ofto take up all that space and to
use it and they have a kind ofa vision of what they want to do
and how they want to do and Ireally respect those kinds of
people.
But I just I learned kind of thehard way that I?
I wasn't one of them.

Andy Luttrell (17:06):
I feel like it probably also accelerates the
process to be on a team.
So I'm thinking of, like youknow, the as a former and
current Pixar junkie.
Yeah, these legendary tales ofthe writing, yeah, I say it's
whether just like hammering itout and so they reach a higher
quality product.
But like maybe one person couldhave gotten there, but it would

(17:26):
have taken so many false startsto do it Right.
Like yeah, you can just fail sofast with your ideas.
Yeah, when you have otherpeople checking you, that's
right the process that's right,yeah, that's right.

Latif Nasser (17:36):
That's right.
And I mean, I guess the theflip side of that is like, maybe
, if you're on your own, one ofthose ideas that would otherwise
have gotten nipped in the budby one of your collaborators,
which was so weird and out therethat you know that that you,
you alone, could have taken itto that like, that's possible
for sure.
But at the same time, I dothink, I do think you're right.

(17:59):
Like it's sort of like you, Idon't know, like your most
valuable commodity is your timeand and and, if you want to,
yeah, though, like, for everyone of those adventures you go
off of like like you know, manymore of them will be dead ends
than that one, than that onefabled, bizarre, genius, unique

(18:23):
idea that will, that willperfectly work.
Like like, yeah, I think you'reright, I think it does, it does
save time.
But there is Whether in liketheoretically, or or or actually
like, like.
There there is a trade-off.
There's always a trade-off,mm-hmm.

Andy Luttrell (18:39):
Uh, so okay, so in terms of Uh, put in pen to
paper and making one of thesestories, I want to go back to
something you said about theproblem in textbooks is that
they give you answers toquestions that you don't have.
Yeah, and so I've heard yousort of say that, like when we
talk about science, that'susually the frame we use, right,
like look at all this stuff weknow now, but without like a

(19:01):
driving curiosity to make thatmatter, yeah, and so what does
it mean to you to center a storyon a question as opposed to on
an answer?

Latif Nasser (19:10):
I think it's, I think it's everything like to me
, that's my whole, that's, Ithink, radio labs, mo, and
that's kind of my personal, likelife sort of philosophy.
I think that the questions aremore interesting than the
answers, that the questions thatwe sort of.
Um, there's a thing my wife mywife is a playwright and she
wrote and one of her plays and Ithink about it all the time
which is like, oh, I'm gonnabutcher the line.

(19:31):
I can't believe I'm gonnabutcher the line.
But it was something like, um,as we grow up, do we get worse
at asking questions or do wejust get better at settling for
smaller and smaller answers?
Which is, like I think sobeautiful.
But but to me the thing is thatlike it's to remind ourselves
that the questions are waybigger than the answers, that

(19:54):
that we're ultimately gonna havesuch partial and piecemeal
answers to anything, anyscientific question, any, any
big philosophical question anymore like moral question, any,
any question that we have about,about how to live or about the
world that we live in, like likethese are, like we know so

(20:14):
little.
We know such a symbol full ofthe ocean, like, like we know so
little.
And the thing I want to do atthe beginning of all the stories
.
That I do is to sort of likeInfect someone with a question,
maybe a question that theyalready had, maybe a question
they had when they were young,and then we're kind of like like
like Sort of forgot about, ormaybe it's a question they deep

(20:37):
down and still have inside, ormaybe it's a question they never
even thought of and now, all ofa sudden, they won't stop being
able to think about.
But it's like.
It's like like Making thatquestion matter and then at the
end, we're gonna get something,hopefully some offering that
feels like it's some kind ofclosure on the, you know At
least.
So it feels ending, you know, sothat I didn't just like waste

(21:00):
your time, but but at the sametime to kind of say, like this
is a provisional answer, likethis is the best we can do,
which is which is nowhere nearas as important or powerful as
as as the question itself.
Because I think, like thequestions I think are more
universal, the questions aremore Profound, the questions are

(21:21):
so often yeah, they're, they'rethe, they're timeless, you know
, and and and the answers are sooften, you know, exit.
Answers have expiry dates.
Answers have yeah, anyway, Ijust like.
To me, questions are so muchmore important than the answer.

Andy Luttrell (21:40):
It makes me think , too, of a philosophical point
about like why is science goodand useful?
And it's.
You know, there's sort of adistaste, I think, among
scientists who are like it's notso much that we know these laws
of the universe, it's that wehave a way of coming to those
laws of the universe.
And I think it's a someone inthe social sciences I have that

(22:02):
same thought of.
Like people are complicated,right, like the answers are
always going to be constrained,intentative and open to new ways
of thinking about them.
Yeah, but isn't it incrediblethat we could have a way of
figuring out what is it thatpeople are gonna do under these
situations and not those ones?
And that's the storytelling,right, like that's.

(22:22):
And so, just to push that alittle further, it makes me
think of this moment early inthe pandemic, where there was a
so much uncertainty and therewas this like Don't wear masks,
wait a minute.
Yeah, you, everyone should bewearing masks, wait a minute,
only wear masks.
Under this.
And I could imagine people ifthey think, well, science is
about the answers, then likewhat?
Well, that's right, the answerkeeps changing, yeah, but if

(22:43):
instead it's like no, but don'tyou understand?
Like, then incredible thing isthat we can evolve that
understanding over time.

Latif Nasser (22:49):
That's right.
And when you start with aquestion, that's the story you
get to tell that's right, andimagine like, like in this
moment, like, and, and that justthat's not only true on kind of
a, on kind of a, like, a, ascience, ethical like, a point

(23:11):
of view, but that's also true, Ithink, like in the in this
moment, and, and that thepandemic moment is like a
especially good example of it,where there's tons of
misinformation.
People feel jerked around, like,it feels like, and I think they
think of science like a kind ofparent who's telling you what
to do, and and One day you knowwine is good for your heart and

(23:35):
the next day it's bad for yourliver, and then you're like,
what the hell like, make up yourmind.
You know, like, it's like a,yeah, it's like.
Of course I'm gonna feel jerkedaround and I'm not gonna
believe what you're saying ifyou're telling me contradictory
things every time and theheadlines that we lead with are
the answers that are gonna beproved wrong tomorrow.
You know, like, like, to methat's there's a kind of Truth

(23:59):
and ethical Like from the source, but then also from the, from
the receiving end of thatinformation, there's like a quit
, quit dicking me around.
Like, like, like, like and andEvery.

Andy Luttrell (24:12):
Every time you do that, I trust you a little less
, but if we talk about sciencemore as the process and the
questions then as the answer is,it prepares people to get
jerked around and it doesn'tfeel so bad.
I have a friend who does workon.
When we feel conflicted aboutwhether something is good or bad
and you meet someone, they dosomething great, then they do
something questionable and yougo.
I just don't know how to feelabout this person.
But if you can prepare peoplefor the reality that people are

(24:35):
complicated, yeah, they're notas bothered.
When they see this conflictingset of behaviors, they go like
yeah, that's what people do, Idon't have to be bothered by the
fact that this is back andforth.

Latif Nasser (24:46):
I think about that a lot.
Like it's like.
It's like Building up athreshold of complexity.
Like it's like building uppeople being able to feel that,
oh yeah, this is complicated.
Like, even though it's such asimple question, are masks gonna
help or not?
Such a simple question it'slike.
And all of them like, like somany of the questions that we

(25:06):
have there's they're such simple, they're elegantly, beautifully
simple questions that a kidcould ask the kids often do ask,
but then to answer like To me,then it's like.
It's like like, once you win theperson with the question, like
then it's like, okay, we'regoing on a journey together and
you know what we're gonna do.
Like like, okay, yeah,yesterday we thought them asked

(25:27):
to work, but but guess what?
Today we're gonna misfrizzleour way to being these tiny
molecules.
And we built this wholesimulation where I'm gonna get
through.
I'm gonna try to drive myschool bus through this mask,
but look, oh my gosh, that itgot stuck in this part, but not
it will got through that part.
Like, like we had to build thiswhole simulation to try to

(25:47):
Answer this very simple questionand and this is the best
simulation we got and it'ssaying this, but we might have a
better simulation tomorrow like, like I think that's the way to
do it to me that then, as yousay, it's like you're building
up a Reasonable expectation that, like, this is more complicated
because it's so tiny, this isso much more complicated, and
then then, then, then you wouldever expect and, and that the

(26:10):
answer is gonna keep changing.
But like, but, like, I promiseI'm on it, like it like, we're
working on it, people who arereally really well-meaning and
trying, they're working on itand they're, they're getting you
the best answers that you know.
Cuz, cuz, these, yeah, I don'tknow.
There's something I thinkreally like, like to me.
That's the way that feels.
Like it's all of us together.

(26:31):
Questions are more uniting.
You know, and and and like.
Anyway, yeah.

Andy Luttrell (26:38):
It's a good transition to something else I
wanted to ask you about.
Which is so.
One of my favorite radio labepisodes from the last several
years was the one on Bombs andbutterflies.

Latif Nasser (26:48):
Oh yeah, oh, thank you.

Andy Luttrell (26:50):
And so, when I knew I was gonna talk to you, I
went back and I re-listened toit and there are some like it's
a great example of this, of likeit's not so much like what's
going on as like here, this guyfigured it out.
It's that this guy could notfigure it out.

Latif Nasser (27:03):
You could not figure it out.
Oh my, something so simple yeah.

Andy Luttrell (27:07):
And so two things I wanted to sort of put a
finger on in this episode is onethat in the opening minute or
so, you sort of just lay out inone sentence the entire premise
of the episode, which I thinkit's just a good storytelling
trick, but it just does it sobeautifully.
So here's what you say.
You say this is a story about atiny, fragile critter Doing its

(27:28):
best to survive in a hostileworld, and whether we should
help, let it live or die, orwhether we should help it or let
it die, yeah, which is justlike.
You hear that and you go, oh,I'm sold.
Like, yeah, take me away.
Right, but it strikes me as thekind of thing that is so tight
that it took forever to arriveat the head.
Yeah, so at what point in areporting process do you go this

(27:51):
is this, is it?
This sentence is actually whatwe're doing here.

Latif Nasser (27:54):
Yeah, it's funny.
It's so funny that I'm tryingto remember who wrote that,
whether I wrote that or whethermy editor, soren wheeler, wrote
that or whether somebody elsewrote that.
But I Often feel like that one.
The story came from a book andthe book was the was Nick

(28:16):
Haddad's the main character, his, his book, and it was chapter
in his book and I can't claim tohave like like Crystallize,
that brilliance, like I thinkthat came from from his sort of
decades of grappling with this.
Really, you know, that book isabout each chapter is about a

(28:37):
different butterfly and that'slike right on the brink of
extinction and that that one isthe butterfly that he
particularly studies.
And I think, yeah, I might haveeven ripped that from the book,
but, but, but, but it, but it isas a thesis like it, it.
It does encapsulate everythingin hostile world.

(28:57):
It's a kind of almost like adouble entendre, because the
world is a hostile place,obviously, with climate change
and whatever else, but then alsothis is like the most hostile
place, which is like a Artillerytesting ground on a military
base, but uh, yeah, I think likeit's funny.
In that case, I think thatmight have come at the pitch

(29:17):
phase where it was like.
This is it's so stark anexample of something that feels
so Universal in common and and akind of a question we have
about endangered species and ourplace as stewards on this
planet.
But, but, but it's true thatsometimes that doesn't come

(29:37):
until the very end.

Andy Luttrell (29:39):
Yeah, so I wonder how often that's the case.
So it sounds like in this case,this was a story worth pursuing
because this hook was becausethe hook was there exactly, yeah
, but yeah, it does it.
It does it happen that you sortof go down rabbit holes and
only later do you go?
Oh, actually the stories aboutthis, yeah, or is it pretty that
?

Latif Nasser (29:54):
happens.
Oh yeah, oh yeah, Sometimeslong after.
I feel like I had aconversation with my wife the
other night when I was tellingher about a new story I'm
working on she's like you'rereally interested in and then
she just basically Said one line.
That was like five of my storiesand I like and it never dawned
on me Then any of those storieswas can were connected.

(30:17):
The thing she said was likeyou're really really interested
in essentially like real-lifesuperheroes who are punished for
their, for their heroismbasically, or who have to kind
of survive a an immensely likelike inhuman amount of
Punishment basically, and andthen kind of like emerge from it

(30:38):
a hero and and I don't know,maybe that's really vague and
maybe that's every every story,but like I like it really
specifically describes like awhole bunch of stories I've
worked on at the moment and Ithink it was one of those things
were and including a bunch ofstories I've already done where
I was like, oh, I didn't even, Ididn't even realize that's what
I was doing Until until longafter the fact.
So yeah, it does.
Sometimes I don't know, it'smysterious Maybe when that, when

(31:01):
, that, when that pops out.

Andy Luttrell (31:03):
But it also speaks to like these stories are
worth telling.
When there is a point like thisright again, it's not just oh,
there's these butterflies andthat's.
I figured out how to say.
That's right.
Well, that's okay.
Yeah, there are stakes here,yeah, and you set them up within
the first minute for reportingthis and and that this, this is
Right.

Latif Nasser (31:21):
This is just one story that is Standing for
something way larger that thisis.
This is a metaphor, like likeit's it's.
It's one story, but it's astory to think about the whole
world with, and and it's it'syeah, it's about so much more
than itself, hopefully itstrikes me that that's maybe a

(31:44):
freedom of Journalism as opposedto the scientists themselves.

Andy Luttrell (31:50):
So I think about when I try to convey these sorts
of things.
I go like I've got a lotwriting on you appreciating what
we found right.
The thing I find so interestingis like this is something that
we know now and you know it's.
It's worth Considering whether,like, what's the goal?
Is the goal that I teach yousomething?
Or is the goal that I, liketake you on this journey and I

(32:11):
use this as, yeah, like you'regonna learn about, like how
butterflies survive and like theimportance of these other
things, but it's really we'regonna end with like a question
that you're not gonna resolveand you're gonna have to sit
with for a while.
That's like a very journalisticmove that I don't know that
scientists are.

Latif Nasser (32:29):
Yeah, it's true, it's true and it is funny.
It's a funny.
It's a funny thing, though,because sometimes it it's both
like it's and it's both in both,because as journalists, we have
fat checkers.
We want to be like really,really true and specific to the
thing, and and scientists aswell, they want to be able to,
even though they're looking atlike gypsy mods or whatever the

(32:51):
thing you know like like theywant to be able to say some big,
broad thing about evolution orwhatever like like to me.
I think the there is a kind of afunny thing that I think is
true across both of these fields, which is like, theoretically,
hopefully, if you're doing itright, the more specific you get
it like.
There is that Like like, ifyou're looking at a thing in the

(33:14):
right way and have approachedit with the right question, the
more specific you get it.
Actually, the more universalit's gonna get, even though
you're being true and honest tothe real nitty-gritty specifics
of it, those, those will sing ina way that feel like like much
louder and much more than justabout gypsy mods, you know.

Andy Luttrell (33:31):
Sounds like a something a playwright might.
The story that is real andauthentic Can tell more stories
than just the one as opposed toone that's trying to make a
general point.

Latif Nasser (33:43):
I think so because like it, because that's it,
because it's in thosenitty-gritty details where it
surprises you like, like whereyou couldn't have predicted you
know, even if you do know thebig shape of the thing.
Like it's like there's this onedetail That'll come out and
they'll be like what and how andhow does that?
Yeah, that'll wrinkle up.
I, we have them, as, as I wastalking before, we like we have

(34:04):
a radio lab, we have thesethings called blab labs where we
invite people who we reallylike and admire.
And Recently an editor for theNew Yorker magazine came out and
she said that and who's beingthere and worked in many
magazines.
And one of the things she saidand I've been thinking about
this last few weeks Is she waslike so many, one of the errors
that, like, early New Yorkerwriters make that she kind of

(34:26):
notices and it's like they'retrying to make their stories the
perfect story, they're tryingto make it fit their sort of
idea of a perfect story and thedetails that will sort of like
line up with that imaginaryperfect story or the kind of the
best version of that otherarchetypal story that they've

(34:48):
seen over and over again.
Whereas, like the moreexperienced journalist.
She said the mess is kind ofthe fun, like the way that it
actually diverges from thatarchetype.
That's where it becomes like.
That's actually where itbecomes interesting and juicy
and weird and like that's thething that actually as a
listener, you're kind of,because you've heard that other
story before, you don't wantthat other story.

(35:09):
You want the like what are thewrinkles here?
That, yeah, those are important.

Andy Luttrell (35:17):
One other thing about this episode that I just
wanted to hit, which is sort ofalong these lines of conveying
what the message is or what thepremise is, something that I
definitely didn't notice thefirst time I listened to it.
But on re-listening the numberof times, you restate this
premise and so at one point yousay even though this little
butterfly is about the size of aquarter, this thing is entirely

(35:38):
upturned, this person's idea oflife and death and creation and
destruction.
And then you tell the story andthen you say and what he starts
to realize is basically that,like everything he knows about
this butterfly, everything heknows about conservation,
everything he knows about lifeand death is wrong.
On a continue to tell the story, nicodod says what I realized
is my perception of butterfliesas fragile was totally misplaced

(35:59):
.
And you say and like this wholetime, he was exactly 180
degrees wrong.
So it strikes me that that isan importance, just like making
sure we're all we all get, likewhy this is so important.
But there's a delicate balancewhere, like by the fifth time
you say it, we go yeah, yeah,yeah, yeah.

Latif Nasser (36:16):
I know, and maybe like hearing you say it, I'm
like, oh God, we like overhandheld it Well, I can tell them
all.
No, but yeah, I think it's agreat cause.
It is often also like so many,like even that evolutionary
biology here and like it can getreally technical and it's like
hard to like and so you wantpeople to have enough of it that

(36:38):
they are getting a feeling forit and they can understand it.
But like you also want to kindof signpost and like hand wave
and be like no, no, no, no, butthis is so dramatic Like look
what's happening here.

Andy Luttrell (36:48):
It's so cool.

Latif Nasser (36:50):
And it's really.
It was surprising and it waslike there's drama here and
suspense, what's he gonna find?
Like all of that stuff, likeyou want to do all that, but you
also don't want to.
Obviously like like a handholdtoo much and like people are
like okay, thanks, dude, I gotit and I think there is.
Yeah, there's like there's afine line, but like and you

(37:11):
never know whether you'rehitting it or not but like, but
you do to me, I think differentpeople at radio labs sort of
land in different ways.
I'm on the like.
I want things to be super clear.
Like just dumb it down for me.
Tell me really, really simply,like I would rather everybody
knows what's going on and wekind of can, yeah, we can kind

(37:31):
of all walk together, yeah, andthere's a thing we do like.
There's a thing we do at radiolab a lot like one of our credos
in a way is like lead with tape.
So like what you do is like youlead with tape and you burst in
a while for a while and you'relike as a listener, you're like
wait, what is that?
And then you kind of come andback explain it and you're like

(37:52):
oh, and so this was like andthen the reason I was here was
because I was doing this thing.
And so there's like a littlemystery, and then you're nicely
explained and oh, we're all handholding and we know what we're
doing, oh, and then there's alittle mystery, and then we're
explained and it just createsthis like micro level of like,
oh, you're doing a little bit ofwork, and then I'm giving you a
little treat, and then I'mgiving you a little work, and
then I'm giving you a littletreat, and there's like I don't

(38:12):
know, I find that reallysatisfying too.

Andy Luttrell (38:15):
It seems like it's maybe unique to this kind
of like science domain, whereyou go like you just don't have
the tools to appreciate why thisis so incredible.
If you don't already know this,like, you need me to reinforce.
Like no, you don't understand.
This is outrageous.
As opposed to like a show.
Don't tell Maxim instorytelling where you go.
It's not my job to tell you thepoint, but you go well in this

(38:38):
kind of reporting.
That is my job, right Like.
I'm here to contextualize thiscomplicated idea for you and
make sure you understand justwhy this is incredible.

Latif Nasser (38:47):
Right, which is funny, because that's also one
of the reasons why I feel likecasting is so important in sort
of science storytelling, cause,like you want to do, the show
don't tell, and sometimes youhave to cut in and be like well,
what you don't understand islike for 40 years, everyone has
thought the exact opposite ofwhat this person is saying.
But also another reason, anotherway to do that in the showing

(39:08):
mode is like to have a scientistlike Nicodad bless him who's
great, a great talker, who canbe like I had no idea, like I
was completely wrong, like I hadno clue what was going on, like
that kind of thing to be forthem to be able to do it
themselves, like there'ssomething, there's a great value
to that as well.
But it is like you obviouslyalways want to show, but there

(39:33):
are sometimes there's somethings like that are that you
know a debate that has beengoing on for a long time in
journal articles of the you know, journal of Marine Archaeology
or whatever, and you're likeokay, I kind of have to tell you
about this because I can'treally show it to you.

Andy Luttrell (39:51):
All right for just as a way of rounding things
out.
The other sort of techniquelevel thing that I wanted to get
your take on is that when Ithink about stories that you do,
the impression I get is thatthey're particularly good at
putting me in a state of awe.
There's like a thing aboutthese stories where it's like
you, just like I feel yourexcitement, like I'm excited

(40:14):
vicariously through you, and Ithink this is also well done on
the Netflix series too.

Latif Nasser (40:19):
Oh, thank you.
So I also rewatched the dustepisode.

Andy Luttrell (40:21):
Oh my God, that's my favorite one, and it's just
like the whole time you're likewhat this thing has been going
on this whole time and I don'tknow about it.
And I don't know that I wouldfeel that way if I didn't have
this guy who was like no, no, no, come on, you gotta see this,
yeah, and then you'll neverguess it also matters on this

(40:41):
other continent, right right.
So the other thing I associatewith you is I feel I get the
sense sometimes that Radio Labputs you in a sound booth one
day and said we want you to saywow and whoa a bunch of times.
We do have a and we're gonnasprinkle it in.

Latif Nasser (40:55):
We have that is a secret of Radio Lab that we have
.
I don't think we have it now,but we used to have like there
was, for in the Jad and Robertdays.
There was a.
We called them RoboJad and RoboRobert and they were like, yeah,
there was like a little folderof like wow's and you know,
zowie's or whatever it was, butyeah, but like, I do feel like

(41:17):
and it's actually quite I mean asomewhat polarizing thing, but
like, to me I do feel likeprobably my one superpower, more
than anything else, is myenthusiasm.
Like that's the thing I can getexcited about, the things I'm
excited about, and that's a lotof things, and I think that's
sort of my power and I think Ihope that it makes it more

(41:41):
palatable for people to get intotopics that they don't know
about.
Like, there's something like Ifeel so privileged to work at a
show where people will listen.
They will tune in like in,millions of people will listen
to something they don't knowanything about.

(42:01):
Like, how many shows do you dothat for?
Like, usually you're tuning into either celebrities talking or
like about news that youalready kind of know a little
bit about, or about you know, aTV show you already watched, or
about a sports match that you'reabout to watch or have just
watched.
Like I'm gonna tell you about aobscure sport you've never heard

(42:24):
of.
I'm gonna tell you about, forSy Hub, most of our listeners
like a website you've neverheard of or for you know, like,
to me, I think that's reallycool that we have that ability.
And to me, I think theenthusiasm is, in a way, it's
like a way to promise, like thismeans a lot to me and I'm

(42:44):
putting a little bit of my hearton the table and like and it's
okay if it doesn't mean anythingto you, but it means a lot to
me, so, and I'm trying to shareit with you in like, in good
faith and not ironically orbecause I'm, like you know,
angry about it or pissed aboutit I actually think this is like
a beautiful thing that peopleought to know.
So that's really cool.
It is polarizing, like thereare people who are like oh my

(43:06):
God, I feel like I get reviewsall the time and on every medium
basically, where it's likepeople like who is this guy?
He seems so fake.

Andy Luttrell (43:14):
I just wanna punch him in the face.

Latif Nasser (43:15):
Like this seems so , you know, like it's so over
the top it's like, and I'm likeno, I'm actually like that Like
I don't drink coffee, I'm justnaturally like this.
But to me, I think it's likeit's just a kind of I don't know
.
There's a kind of honesty aboutit.
There's a kind of like.
I think it's a yeah, it's a wayto.

(43:36):
It's a I don't know.
It's a helpful gateway druginto a topic you don't know, and
it's like that's a harder thingfor a lot of people to do.
It's to kind of venture into atopic that they know nothing
about, you know.

Andy Luttrell (43:50):
It also strikes me as kind of a kindness to the
people who you're featuring,right, they're sort of like this
is also like this person isprobably even more excited than
I am and I just wanna, like, Iwanna amp you up so that, like
you really can that's right asother person, that's right and
so yeah, so that's a.
So I guess, like nuts and bolts, is there anything you would

(44:11):
say that you do to sort of like?
Part of this, I think, is atthe pitching and rejecting stage
, where you go well, we're onlygonna do this if I am excited.

Latif Nasser (44:19):
That's right, that's right, that's right.

Andy Luttrell (44:21):
But even still, you could be excited about
something and it won't read onthe radio, or so for so many of
these stories, you're working onthem for a long time.

Latif Nasser (44:28):
Like your excitement it's.
They're peaks and crests andlike it troughs.
You know where there aremoments where you're like, why
am I doing this story again?

Andy Luttrell (44:37):
What the hell.

Latif Nasser (44:38):
To me.
I think One thing is to, whenyou first find an idea and it's
like a little, you know ember ornot an ember.
It's a little glint of whateverflint, of a whatever spark
spark was the word I was lookingfor.
It's like document.

(45:01):
That like like make a do avoice memo to yourself or write
a little like my pitches for meare like kind of the.
They're like compasses in a way, like I write my pitches in a
way specifically so that I can,three months from now, when I'm
working on this thing and I'veforgotten, like I'm like why
does anybody care about this?

Andy Luttrell (45:20):
Why should I?

Latif Nasser (45:20):
ever.
Why did I ever care about this?
I can read that pitch and belike, oh, that's why.
Because I like, because, yeah,because it, you know, scratches
this itch or it answers thisquestion, or it asks this
question, or it like, oh, I'veseen a million stories like this
, but I've never seen a storylike that.
You know, or who would?
If I was in that position, Iwould have done the exact

(45:42):
opposite thing than this persondid and like, wow, what an
extraordinary thing.
Or who would have thought thatthey would have found this thing
in this place, or whatever?
It is Like the thing thatactually is the hot center of
the enthusiasm for you like like, write it down.
Like, don't trust that, that'llalways be there.

(46:02):
For you Like, keep that andhold that and use that all
throughout.
And people are gonna say stuff,be they editors or people
rejecting your story, or evenpeople casually at parties who
will like, who you'll start totell them the story and then
they'll be like, oh great, oh,look like a little miniature hot
dog.
I'm gonna go follow thatinstead.
Thanks, like that's moreinteresting than whatever you're

(46:23):
telling me about Anythingthat'll happen like it's like.
It's like like, use that thingas your sort of buttress to be
like yes, this is interesting.
I know, because I trust my oldself, I, you know, and I trust
this thing that I wrote thatlike this is gonna be.
This is interesting and theworld ought to hear it, you know
.

Andy Luttrell (46:42):
So the last.
This is just like I wanna getinside the radio lab machine for
a second, please, because oneof the things that I love about
the voice of the show is that itis somehow very conversational
and very produced, and so I'mcurious, like, how do you pull
that off?
Like, is this a case where thisis way more scripted than I

(47:04):
could possibly tell, because youall are very good actors.

Latif Nasser (47:07):
Or not a good actor.

Andy Luttrell (47:08):
I've sort of heard a rumor that there's a lot
of like recording informalconversations a whole bunch of
times and then cutting that asalmost as if it is the tape,
even though it becomes thenarration that's right, it's
basically what you just said.

Latif Nasser (47:20):
So we have we basically like information
management is important.
So people know certain parts ofthe story, or someone comes
back from a reporting trip andthey don't talk until they get
into the studio and then youtalk to them the first time.
You know where, you hear, wherethe host is hearing that, and
maybe the reporter is evensaying that information for the

(47:41):
first time in real time on theair or whatever on the mic.
So then also what we do isthere's a thing that we do after
we do kind of a storyboard,we'll do a thing called a brain
dump, and the brain dump isbasically the reporter kind of
loosely prepares the rundown ofthe whole story and then the

(48:01):
host will sit with the reporterand the reporter will tell it
just very conversationally andthe hosts, who at that point
maybe vaguely remember the pitchfrom like a year ago or
something, yeah, or genuinelylike just know nothing about the
story will sit and have honest,real human reactions to the
yeah, to the kind of story thathopefully is being told in

(48:25):
pretty similar to what will bethe eventual structure of the
story.
So it is a real conversation,it's an honest conversation.
And then the reason when we comein and like hyper produce it
and overly produce it is like oh, this question, was this
actually really interesting?
Or it actually leads us down aplace that we don't actually go.
So let's cut that.
Oh, this, it turns out, factthe fact, check turned up that

(48:46):
this thing is so let's actuallyfix that over here and this
actually maybe we could movethis over here, but otherwise
it's generally the same.
So there is a lot of kind oftidying up, but like we try to
keep the, because you really canhear the difference if someone
is talking versus if someone isactually kind of just like
having an actual humanconversation, and so we try to,

(49:09):
when possible, have that actualhuman conversation.
It takes way more time, itmakes way more tape, it takes
way more editing kind of muscle,but we think it's worth it.

Andy Luttrell (49:20):
All right, well, now I know the secret.
This has been super fun.
I just want to say thanks fortaking the time and talking
about all this.
This was a real treat for me.

Latif Nasser (49:28):
Andy, you're so kind and I think what you're
asking, you're asking so manygreat questions and you're like
I mean it, like you're sort of aconnoisseur of this thing and I
feel like you know it evenbetter than I do when I'm doing
it, and it's kind of a it's likeso nice to sort of pop your
head out and be like oh, whatare we doing again?

(49:49):
So yeah, I appreciate you andthis has been a really wonderful
conversation and I'll see younext time.

Andy Luttrell (50:24):
Adam Estriani, Sam Jones, Siri Carpenter, Allie
Ward and Lettif Nusser howlucky are you?
Well, how lucky am I?
Having a reason to talk withall of these people and vicking
their brains is such a privilege.
I'm so grateful.
I wasn't sure if I was gonna doanother season of this Psycom
series, but I'm so glad I didand thank you for being here.
And yeah, I'll do the outroagain for old time's sake.

(50:47):
This series on sciencecommunication is a special
presentation of my podcast,Opinion Science, a show about
the science of our opinions,where they come from and how
they change.
You can subscribe any old placewhere they have podcasts your
apples, your Spotify's, yourAmazon musics.
If you're like me, you're usingthe same $12 version of
BeyondPod that you downloaded 12years ago.

(51:08):
Whatever, whatever works, andbe sure to check out
OpinionSciencePodcastcom for allthe episodes and whatnot.
Thank you so much for listening.
Your regularly scheduledOpinion Science programming will
be back in a couple of weeks.
I talked to Dan Simons andChris Chabry, the guys who are
able to psychologically erase awhole dang gorilla from your
attention.
If you know, you know.

(51:30):
And if you don't know, comeback here in a couple of weeks
for more Opinion, Science.
Bye-bye MUSIC.