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July 7, 2025 52 mins

Joel Bervell recently graduated from medical school, which is when he gained fame as an influencer helping the public navigate good medical science. He’s out there breaking down myths about medicine, particularly shining a light on racial disparities in health and treatment. He recently won a Peabody award, consults with the White House, has given interviews on various media platforms, and has given talks all over.  He hosts the podcast, The Dose. And he developed an animated children’s show for YouTube ("The Doctor is In"). 

So, I think it’s safe to say Joel knows a thing or two about reaching people with solid science content. I was happy I could catch him in between the 30 things he’s working on to learn more about his story and how he pulls all of this off. So let’s jump right into my chat with Joel Bervell.

 You can find the rest of this summer's science communication podcast series here.

For a transcript of this episode, visit this episode's page at: http://opinionsciencepodcast.com/episodes/

Learn more about Opinion Science at http://opinionsciencepodcast.com/ and follow @OpinionSciPod on Twitter.

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Episode Transcript

Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Andy Luttrell (00:09):
Hello, welcome to July, and welcome back to Hot
SciComm Summer.
Today I'm excited to share aconversation with Joelle
Bervell.
Where to start?
Joelle does everything.
I guess first I'll mention thata few of this season's guests
share something in common.
Last year, I was very honoredto receive an award for science
communication from the NationalAcademies of Sciences,

(00:29):
Engineering, and Medicine andthe Schmidt Foundation.
And yes, it was very nice to berecognized.
But the best part, honestly,was that I got to fly out to a
week of workshops with the otheraward winners that year.
And just getting to hang outwith so many sharp, talented
people was so inspiring.
It was like why I started thispodcast series in the first

(00:49):
place.
I just wanted to meet peoplewho do this kind of work and
learn from their approach.
Anyhow, one of the awardees waspast SciComm Summer guest Sam
Jones, but two others are gueststhis season.
Joelle, who you'll hear fromtoday, and Alex Danis, who
you'll hear from next.
Next time.
Next time.

(01:11):
In any case, Joel has hadreally incredible success on
social media, sharing social andmedical science.
Better to hear it from him, butessentially he's out there
breaking down myths aboutmedicine, particularly shining a
light on racial disparities inhealth and treatment.
And just to give you a taste ofwhere this work is taking him,

(01:34):
when I met him last December, hewas getting ready to fly to
Norway to attend the Nobel PeacePrize ceremony as a guest, and
in the few months since then, hewon a Peabody award.
Not to mention his workconsulting with the White House,
being on TV, giving mediainterviews and talks all over.
This all, by the way, is mostlywhile he's been in med school.
So I think it's safe to saythat Joel knows a thing or two

(02:09):
about reaching people with solidscience content.
I was happy I could catch himin between the 30 things he's
working on to learn more abouthis story and how he pulls all
this off.
So let's jump right into mychat with Joel Burvell.
Joel Burvell Walk me through thefirst moment where you're like,

(02:38):
I'm going to make a video,right?
And I'm going to let the worldsee it.
I have to imagine, I mean, theway these stories always go is
like, person on a whim makes avideo because it seems like a
fun idea.
All of a sudden...
A lot of eyeballs are on it.
And now there's a question oflike, well, do I do this again
or just kind of like bask in themoment that just happened?

(03:01):
So where was your head at whenyou first started doing this?
You've basically just told my

Joel Bervell (03:08):
story.
Now I'm joking.
No, I think there's definitelyan element of truth to that for
everyone that gets into thisspace where you have a moment
where you say, whoa, that blewup in a way I didn't expect.
For me, that came during myfirst year of medical school.
I had graduated from Yale forundergrad, went to grad school,
and then came to WashingtonState University for medical
school.
And during my first year ofmedical school, halfway through,

(03:30):
COVID hit.
And I think like many otherparts of the world, the world
shut down for me.
And most of my classes wereactually online instead of in
person.
Unlike most of the rest of theworld, we were in medical
school.
And so learning a lot aboutscience and what does COVID mean
in Washington state hadactually been one of the first
places that had the first COVIDoutbreak in the entire United

(03:51):
States.
And so we actually hadresearchers coming to our
school, talking to us about it,all that kind of stuff.
But I started just playingaround with TikTok because I had
extra time.
And so that was my firstplatform, TikTok specifically.
specifically.
where my first videos wereactually not about science or
about communication really atall.
It was just having fun withdifferent trends that I could be
a part of.
And one of the first videos Imade was this trend where you

(04:14):
literally transform intosomething that you look like
with kind of just like cutscreen.
And I remember I transformedinto Dr.
Burke from Grey's Anatomybecause I'd always had people
growing up kind of joke, oh, youkind of look like Dr.
Burke, even though I don't atall, but people always say that.
But I guess people on TikTokthought I did because the video
did pretty well, got like a100,000 views.
And I'd been posting my journeyto get to medical school on

(04:37):
Instagram, and I'd never gottenthat many views on anything.
And so for me, it was thismoment where I said, whoa,
there's a whole new audiencehere on TikTok, where one,
people are really friendly.
Two, they like engaging withscience content to some degree.
And at least in this case, itwas medical content, right?
And like a medical show.
And I started thinking, whatelse can I post that would
actually be informative?
I think I'd always had thiskind of idea of social media.

(05:00):
And I hated the fact thatpeople use it just to bring And
I was always like, how can youactually teach something really
interesting on social media?
And so I started off withactually talking about my

(05:26):
journey into medicine.
scholarships.
So for the first part of it,actually, I was a scholarship
guy.
But really what ended upchanging it was at the start of
my second year of medicalschool.
So this is about the end of thefirst semester of my second
year.
So in December 2020, I was homeduring COVID.

(05:49):
And I remember I came acrossthis article that someone had
posted on Instagram on theirstory.
And it was from the New EnglandJournal of Medicine.
And it was essentially talkingabout how these devices that we
put on our fingers called apulse oximeter don't work well
in darker skin tones.
In fact, people with darkerskin tones are three times as
likely to have inaccurate,overestimated oxygen saturation

(06:12):
levels when compared to peoplethat don't have melanated skin.
I remember seeing thisthinking, this can't be true.
I've just finished mypulmonology unit.
I finished my cardiology unit.
We would have learned about itsomewhere there.
But I went, read the fullstudy, did a deep dive, found
that there were so many otherstudies that existed, literally
stretching back until the 90s,that showed that this was true,

(06:34):
but for some reason we weren'tbeing taught it.
And so I did what any Gen Zslash millennial would do.
I jumped on TikTok and madewhat I could only do at that
time, which was a 30-secondvideo about pulse oximeters.
And I started off by saying,What does racial bias in
medicine look like?
And literally within 24 hours,that video had over half a
million views.
And I think I was shocked bythe response of so many people

(06:57):
being interested in a piece ofcontent that I found
interesting, which was aboutscience, and really
communicating that piece ofscience to the general masses.
I think part of the reason whyit did so well was one, There's
a lot of doctors and nurses onTikTok at that time.
Two, people were thinking aboutCOVID and how they could
protect their families.
And three, the FDA was tellingpeople to bring these devices

(07:19):
home.
and buy them to be able tocheck if they were hypoxic or
had low oxygen levels.
Yet, they were not also at thesame time talking about the fact
that skin tone could be anactual confounder within that.
And so that became my firstracial bias in medicine series,
and I ended up starting to posta ton of videos about things

(07:40):
that I wasn't learning inmedical school that were related
to science, that were kind ofon this cutting edge of what
does health equity look like inthe United States.
Thinking about how race,gender, socioeconomic status,
all are indicators of the carethat we receive in the United
States and how we shouldactually maybe be rethinking
that and actually doing it indifferent ways.
So that kind of became myplatform over the next few years

(08:01):
and now it's been five years ofdoing it.

Andy Luttrell (08:05):
You didn't have to do it though, right?
That video could have blown upand you could have been like,
whoa, what a wild ride.
And I'm going to go back tostudying.
But instead, you took the baitand ran with it.
And the gamble worked out inthe long term, it seems like.
But why do another one, right?

(08:29):
You were faced with a choice.
Keep doing this or just like...
be bewildered by the viralityof that one video.

Joel Bervell (08:38):
Yeah.
I remember I ran to my sister'sroom after I posted that video
and it got pretty viral.
And I asked her, Rachel, didyou know about this?
Had you ever learned about itwhen you were in medical school?
She's a physician as well.
And she said, no, but do youknow about this?
And we ended up startingcreating a whole list of these
biases that exist.
I think for me, the reason whyI felt like I had to do it was

(08:58):
no one else was doing it.
These were all things that mysister or I had experienced that
had real world impacts onpatients' lives, whether it was
literally life or death,impacting if someone gets a
kidney transplant, impactingwhether someone has a vaginal
birth or a C-section.
And so these were all thingsthat we had experienced and
asked ourselves, why do we do itlike this?
But for some reason, no one wasusing social media specifically

(09:21):
to discuss it.
And so I always have thisactually saying that I say all
the time that even before Istarted social media, if not
now, when?
If not me, who?
And I realized no one else wasdoing this.
I felt like I was positioned inthis perfect place being a
black medical student that'sgoing through the COVID pandemic
to talk a lot about theseracial issues.
There's a racial reckoninggoing on.

(09:42):
And I knew that I have theinterest and also the background
to be able to do it where Istudied microbiology in college,
but I also took a ton ofclasses that were at the
intersection of bioethics andlaw or even media and medicine.
And so it didn't even feel hardto me.
I know this sounds weird tosay, but it didn't feel hard.
It felt like I was able toshare things that I'd been
talking about all the time withmy friends just on a platform

(10:04):
that actually reached a lot morepeople and bringing a lot more
individuals into thisconversation.
So into the question of why didI do it?
It was really because no oneelse was doing it.
And I felt like this wassomething that I wanted to
create for my mom, my sister, mybrother, my dad, that no one
else was putting out there.

Andy Luttrell (10:21):
So you mentioned a perspective that you bring to
it.
I'm also curious, like in termsof the things you're good at,
just like you, the unique personwho's I think I saw maybe you
did debate in high school andyou did these other things.
Like there's a version where Igo like, oh, you sort of found
yourself like, oh, not only do Ilike have the know-how side of

(10:41):
it, but I also like, I know howto actually do this.
Like I know how to like beengaging.
I know how to like churnthrough raw material and create
communication out of it.
Yeah.
Is that right?
Did you feel like, like in whatways were you kind of ready to
go?
Like, you know, luck favorsthose who are prepared.
Yeah.
What are the skills that youbrought to the table at that

(11:02):
early stage?

Joel Bervell (11:03):
Yeah, it's funny because I actually had this
conversation with my mom.
When everything was taking offand I had been invited to the
White House, it was on the KellyClarkson show and all these
crazy things that werehappening.
And my mom was like, You know,everything you've done has kind
of led you to this moment.
And so she started bringing upthe things.
And so you mentioned speech anddebate.
That was one thing that I didspeech and debate all four
years.

(11:23):
I was a state champion inCongress, which is like a
specific type of debate whereyou literally get up and debate
affirmative or negative bills.
And what's so funny is like alot of the work I do online is
talking about policy and howdoes policy relate to health
care.
And so a lot of like I didn'tknow what Medicaid was like when
I first started debate.
But by the end of my fouryears, I knew what it was

(11:43):
because we were debating aboutwhere we should be expanding
Medicaid policy like a lot ofthe conversations that I'd had
in high school early on evenbefore college were things I was
bringing up again on my socialmedia but now connecting it to
this larger conversation ofmedicine policy and like where
we were in those like in theCOVID pandemic and so yeah I

(12:04):
think speech and debate so likepublic speaking was one skill I
knew I brought I think music isactually another one that I
thought about because the factthat like TikTok ran a lot on
like sounds and And I've playedpiano literally since I was
three years old.
I play saxophone.
I also play clarinet.
And I think it's funny becausesometimes I'll see people post
things.
I'll be like, that sounddoesn't make sense for that

(12:25):
video.
And I think it's this abilityto be able to say, where does
the sound match with this?
What's the tone that I want togo for?
Do I want this to be moresomber?
Do I even want to not use anymusic?
And then there's the idea ofmusic itself.
The whole TikTok platform runson trends.
And so if you can understand atrend from a piece of music...
Or if you start a trend from apiece of music, that's how you

(12:46):
grow, right?
You build something from thisunique perspective of community.
So speech and debate, music, Ithink even videography.
I grew up taking photos.
My dad actually came fromGhana, West Africa.
And the way he even came to theUnited States in the first
place was through photography.
He took photos at weddings andwould actually use that to pay

(13:08):
to get to the United States.
When my brother and I weregrowing up, our first business
was we would actually go toweddings, take photos, and this
was like in the Ghanaiancommunity, take photos, bring
our own like photography setthing and print out the photos
right there and sell it back tothem.
But we also-

Andy Luttrell (13:26):
Like you're on a ride at Disneyland where

Joel Bervell (13:28):
they're taking- set up the whole background we
would put on green screens wewould make like all these
designs we ended up going intovideography too where we like be
filming the whole thing as wellso we would edit afterwards
we'd have to cut we'd have tofigure out ways to make it
unique put the music in thebackground and i was doing this
as a fifth grader right and soeven looking back all the way at

(13:49):
that point it was like okay ieven did videography and like in
my school like when all myclubs i was the guy that was
always like how could we makethis like cool uh in shot i
don't I was cool like video withthis or how do I use iMovie to
make something really cool?
And so I was in studentgovernment and made a lot of
videos and a lot of differentlike PowerPoints, all things

(14:10):
that I think go very much handin hand with production skills
that are now used on socialmedia.
And the cool thing about socialmedia is now you can do it all
from just a phone, right?
Whereas before I had my DSLR orI had like my iMovie and my dad
taught me a lot how to use allof these things because even
growing up, he would actually, Ihaven't thought about this in a

(14:30):
long time, but we would do likethese annual Christmas, like
mini videos, you know, where, ormini like TV series type things
where he would like throughoutthe entire day, go around
filming us on Christmas and thenlike produce a video.
And my brother and I would helphim with it.
So all those things were thingsthat I still use today in terms
of the basic skills ofvideography and photography and

(14:52):
understanding how do you makesomething visually appealing,
but also making it interestingwhen it comes to music and
sound.
But then, of course, the mostimportant part is that voice
that comes through and beingable to make a strong argument
no matter what that is.

Andy Luttrell (15:04):
That's great.
And I feel like that is a lotof the story.
People who kind of go down thisroad...
It's not a grand surprise,right?
Like in talking to people forthis series, there's always
something where it's like, yeah,but like before I even cared
about science, I was doing, Iwas making this or I was doing
that or I was interested inthis.
The other part though aboutlike social media success or
really like the next stage ofany of this is getting eyeballs

(15:28):
on it, right?
Like there's a whole other partof the process, which is like,
where are the people comingfrom?
And in some ways theseplatforms are nice because
they're sort of built fordiscovery, at least that's what
they say.
but you probably had tonavigate that part of it as like
an alternate side.
So I'm curious, like howdeliberate were you about kind

(15:49):
of taking this and building itinto a thing as opposed to just
being like, I'm going to make mystuff and I'm not even going to
pay attention.
I imagine you're somewhere inbetween, but like how did you
juggle that side of theequation?
I

Joel Bervell (16:01):
was pretty deliberate actually.
Like I knew that I wanted tocreate content for a purpose.
And so I wanted that purpose toreach a specific community.
One of my friends, as Imentioned, I'd kind of been
using Instagram all throughoutcollege to like document my
journey as a pre-med student andI think it actually had a lot
of negative perceptions towardsit because you know like when
you're first getting started outeveryone's like what are you

(16:21):
trying to do you're trying to bean influencer all this kind of
stuff one of my best friends hisname is Joe English we he hates
social media he's off ofeverything right and so we had
this long conversation aboutlike and he asked me this
question of like who are youtrying to reach what's your
purpose with social media andthis was probably when I was a
sophomore in sophomore, maybejunior in college.

(16:42):
And I remember it really, Ithought about that for a long
time.
And so when things startedtaking off on TikTok, that was
part of the reason why Iswitched from just doing like
kind of fun content to doingmore serious content.
Because I wanted to say, evenif it doesn't bring me the most
success the fastest, can it besomething that I look back and
say, I know why I'm doing this.
I always say for anyonecreating content, you can burn

(17:05):
out really easily if you don'tknow what your why is.
If you don't know why you'recreating that content, why
you're putting it forward,you're going to kind of feel
nebulous and not really knowwhat kind of content to post.
And so when I posted aboutracial biases, I was like, I
want this to be my niche.
I want to talk about race andgender.
I want to talk about medicine.
I want to talk about the thingsthat other people aren't

(17:26):
discussing.
I want to bring in current dayevents and actually have those
conversations Thank you so much.
Like my Instagram, I couldliterally see in real time how

(17:57):
it changed from kind of in a waya younger demographic to an
older demographic because Ithink people that are older
think more about healthcare orutilizing the system more.
I also realized that it wasturning more female.
So actually I think probably70% of my followers on both
platforms are female.
I think part of the reason whyis there's so many reproductive
health conversations that happenthat unfortunately, one, we

(18:20):
don't get in medical school ortwo, there's a lot of
misinformation about that.
Yeah.
And so I think those were thethings that I was thinking about
as I created this content, butit also helped me figure out
what kind of content I wanted tomake more of as well.

Andy Luttrell (18:32):
Yeah.
So that's what I'm wondering,like, what is the tangible thing
you can do?
So one is you can sort of lookat what, what's landing and you
can also like, you know, focuson making better videos, but in
terms of like strategy, someonewho's, let's say someone who's
like, I've started to do thiskind of thing.
I have an idea in mind of likewhat it is that I'm trying to

(18:53):
do, but like I can't seem tolike find my people on the
internet.
Are there things that you'velearned that like, oh, this
actually really helped.
Like once I started doing this,I could see that I was finally
getting through to the audiencethat I was trying to reach.
Yep.
I think

Joel Bervell (19:07):
definitely following other people that you
enjoy.
Like if you want to have acommunity, be a part of that
community, right?
Find those people, follow theothers that are already doing
it.
Two, you can collaborate withthose individuals.
And so I think what reallyhelped me was starting when I
grew big enough, like to docollaborations with other
creators who were within myniche.
And so that's medicine, right?

(19:28):
Anyone that's interested inmedicine will like my niche, but
also anyone that's interestedin kind of health equity will
also like it.
And so I had a lot of funactually finding people offline
on like a different platformwhere they weren't big and bring
them over to TikTok or bringtheir ideas over to TikTok.
over to TikTok and maybescreenshotting their posts or
stitching a post and actuallysaying, here's like what this

(19:49):
person's doing.
And that helped a lot with one,getting kind of having that
cross collaboration ofpollination and two, knowing
that I'm reaching the rightaudience.
And I think about this a lotbecause when I started doing
more brand deals and doing adsand stuff, you can definitely
tell when people are coming toyour page that don't know your
content, right?
Or if you have a video thatreally blows up, like I think I
had one on Instagram that got 28million views, I could tell

(20:12):
when it wasn't people thatfollowed me, right?
Because there's a lot ofunfortunate conversations.
Or you could tell the peoplethat know your content and that
don't know your content.
And so I think it's reallyabout being consistent.
That's really big.
And the type of content youcreate, you can experiment every
so often, and that's important.
But know that by experimenting,you're going to be attracting a
different audience.

(20:33):
The other thing I think isreally important that I'm
realizing I started doing abouttwo years ago is I started
telling people in my videos whoI was.
And so...
I start off my videos by sayinglike, my name is Joel, the
medical myth buster, and let'stalk about X and Y, right?
And I think as soon as I saythat, so medical myth buster,
it's going to be anyone that'sinterested in reframing the
healthcare field, anyone that'sinterested in science by saying

(20:55):
medical myth buster, but alsopeople that are just curious
about the world around them.
And I also made sure that mybio, these are all the little
things, but like my bio madesure to say who I was, medical
student, doctor.
I would say things like followif you want more content like X,
you know, like having all thosecall to actions or really
important to bring people intothe conversation and understand

(21:15):
what they're getting themselvesin for.

Andy Luttrell (21:19):
Are you, in terms of sustaining, you mentioned
consistency.
Before we started recording, Italked to you about how
relentless this podcast scheduleis.
I'm realizing you're in thesame boat for this stuff, right?
You've got to, as I understandit, to kind of maintain a
following, kind of constantly beout there.
And I'm often...

(21:39):
alarmed at that within sciencemedia because it's all too easy
to sort of veer off course andbe like I just they need me to
say something and so I'm goingto say something and it would be
alluring to sort of stray fromlike the integrity of giving
good information and so likewhat are you doing like to

(21:59):
sustain this at the qualitylevel that is important to you
like what does that process looklike in terms of your process

Joel Bervell (22:07):
yeah I have a couple things I'll start I'll
start with what I do now andthen what I learned later.
Yeah, I guess one of the thingsthat I do a lot is I have a
schedule or a general schedulethat I don't always follow to a
T, but I'll know the type ofcontent that I want to create.
I started different types ofseries.

(22:28):
That makes it so much easier.
So for Black History Month, Ihad a history called Woke Black
History, where every single dayfor the month of February, I
posted a video about some personfrom history that people don't
know about.
And that becomes really easybecause you get the formula
down.
You're basically telling facts.
about someone else's life butyou have a video about them and

(22:48):
those videos always did reallywell too and so that was nice
because it kind of took thepressure off of having to come
up with brand new ideas at leastI had like some idea of what I
want to do and I have a lot ofdifferent series like that so I
have the woke black history,racial bias in medicine.
I have hidden medical history,you know?
And so every time I have theselike long kind of form that I

(23:09):
can talk about, but then I havemy one-offs, which are more like
my bread and butter, which arewhere I really dive deep into a
concept where maybe I talk aboutGFR and kidney functioning, how
there is a racial equation inmedicine or pulse oximeters, as
I talked about, and what'shappening today.
I do updates as well.
I think updates are really niceways to be like, I can read

(23:30):
back into old content.
My old followers, I've alreadyseen it, could be like, oh,
here's an update on it.
But the new followers who nevereven saw it are like, oh, cool,
this is something I've neverheard about.
But he's giving me an update,which means he's been talking
about it consistently.
I think the other thing Irealized...
is i can repost content and irepost content a lot like i said
i've been doing this for fiveyears now because short form

(23:50):
content you unfortunately it'shelpful for the algorithm to
post a lot um i like i'm i'veliterally reposted when i'm
traveling i just repost and noone notices because not all your
followers see those things allthe time so i always try i try
my best to make what's calledevergreen content that's content
you can post at any timedoesn't matter if it's in
december or march and it'll dowell i can post it and so what

(24:14):
of my other series I have iscalled Derm on Darker Skin and
that's kind of my go-to if Ireally need to post something is
it's like literally a sevensecond video where all I do is I
point out what skin conditionslook like on darker skin versus
on lighter skin those onesalways do really well I only
have like 12 episodes right nowbut I repost those episodes all
the time because people forgetand it's funny because I was
looking back through some of myold videos and I'd even

(24:36):
forgotten I'd made them you knowlike I'd watch one I'd be like
this is a good video when did Imake this and so I'll be like
let me take it let me repost itagain and if i if i can't
remember it there is zero chancesomeone else is gonna remember
it you know and i sat there forlike however many hours making
it So those are all things thathave been really helpful to take
the stress off of having topost every single day.
I think the one other thingI'll say is like some of my

(24:59):
favorite types of videos to makeare just me sitting there
watching something, you know?
And so that can actually workpretty well depending on what
kind of niche you're in.
But if there's like a sciencevideo that you just want to
watch, respond to, those aresuper easy.
Reactionary things can liketake the pressure off, but it's
things that you're seeing inyour day-to-day all the time
where you say, maybe this issomething my followers would be
interested in as well.
I think the base of what I'mtrying to say is If there's

(25:22):
something you're interested in,your followers will most likely
be interested in too.
And so using that everydaycontent that you're seeing as
things just like springboard offto have a conversation can be
really helpful.

Andy Luttrell (25:32):
Is it still just you or

Joel Bervell (25:40):
are there any other hands in this now?
policy making sure it's likethe most up to date I'm getting

(26:05):
the dates right all that kind ofstuff and then I have my my
kind of notes app open next tome as I'm doing the script
speaking into the camera butit's still just me doing all of
it but I also now have a podcastand so I have a team that helps
me with that yeah so it's Ikind of have a little type A so
I think that's why partly I likedoing it alone is because I

(26:26):
know exactly how I want it tolook like and I move fast and
kind of do things veryuntraditionally

Andy Luttrell (26:32):
so

Joel Bervell (26:32):
yeah

Andy Luttrell (26:32):
So yeah, so what you outlined a handful of
different kinds of videos thatyou do, but for like, if you
think of kind of like your core,how much time are you spending
on one of those, right?
It ends up being two minutesballpark.
I don't know what you wouldestimate, but like how, what is
going into that final product?

Joel Bervell (26:51):
Yeah.
Depends on the type of video.
Like I said, like if it's ashorter one, I could literally
knock it out in less than 30minutes.
If it's a, if it's a Derm ondarker skin, if I've already
collected, what takes the mosttime for me is that pre.
process of getting all theinformation and making sure that
it looks good.
Let's say a two-minute videothat I'm making that is about
some specific concept that Ihave to dive into research.

(27:14):
I would say it all maybe...
three and a half to four hours,but I usually try and split
that up.
So I'll have a day where I doall the research and I write the
script.
So maybe the research andscript writing portion takes an
hour, hour and a half, and thenI go to the next phase, which is
the recording.
That can usually take, usuallya little bit quicker, 30 minutes

(27:37):
to an hour.
And then the editing process,that usually takes about another
30 minutes to an hour,depending on how long or how
much I want to add into it.
So yeah, and all about fourhours for a video.

Andy Luttrell (27:46):
Are you sensitive to these like shifts over the
day of like, are you droppingthese videos at 3.43 p.m.
or whatever?
Like, is that part of it?
Or is it just like once it'sdone, it's in the world?
I usually like to

Joel Bervell (28:01):
post in the afternoon.
And I think about people thatare kind of like from my
background because that's why.
And so this is a whole otherthing to think about that.
Like, I don't know if this isaccurate or not.
This is how I think.
But like, I'm like, OK, I amsomeone who gets up at around
like.
6 a.m.
and so there's that crowd if Iwant to reach that crowd I could
post at 6 a.m.
but I usually am trying to gofor the after work crowd coming

(28:21):
home from work or maybe they'reworking late about to go in for
the night shift so my sweet spotfor posting is like 5 p.m.
Pacific time because that's 5p.m.
on the West Coast where peopleare just getting off work it's 8
p.m.
on the East Coast where peopleare maybe sitting at home eating
dinner watching TV but they'rescrolling through their phones
and I've realized that that hasthe biggest engagement for me
personally but I think that'sbecause my audience which is

(28:41):
mostly medical those are thetimes where I'm free which I
know they'll be free too.
And so I usually try and holdonto videos until like those
times.
I've heard things about likeposting at noon.
I just personally don't reallylike posting during the day.
I like the beginning or theend, but that also works for my
schedule where I'm usuallyediting beginning or end and
then just posting right away.

Andy Luttrell (29:00):
So you're not, you're filling out a queue of
like algorithmically optimizedposting times, but it's sort of
ballparking

Joel Bervell (29:09):
when it's done and put it out.
Yeah.
But I've, I've seen it work forme.
And so like, I know generallyI'll be like, okay, I've posted
that video on like a Friday andFridays never do well for me.
Cause I think most of thepeople that probably follow me
are like, I don't know, like outand about, you know, like
either at the bars or friends.
And so, or maybe if I postedearlier Sundays though, or like
a great day, you know, where Ican post Sunday morning, I know
people are in bed scrolling likeI am, you know?

(29:30):
And so that works really well.
So

Andy Luttrell (29:33):
this is all like also only part of your time,
right?
Like you do all these otherthings too.
So I guess on the one hand, wecan just talk about like time
management more generally andthen get into like the bigger
opportunities that have comefrom this stuff.
But like you're making videos,you're managing an account,
you're also doing podcasts orother sorts of things.

(29:55):
But then like- you're a medstudent, or I don't know where
you are on that road, butthat's, for most people, their
entire job.
And so you're having to do thisvery difficult, demanding thing
on top of another difficult anddemanding thing.
So one, why do you do that toyourself?

(30:16):
And two, how do you pull itoff?
Someone who is interested indoing this probably is faced
with kind of the overwhelm of, Idon't actually have the time to
do this.
So what are you doing thatyou're able to do both of those
things

Joel Bervell (30:29):
yeah I always say if it had not been for COVID I
definitely wouldn't have startedto post videos and coming out
of COVID the transition fromlike the virtual to like the
in-person was so difficult noteven because of time but because
of the demands on your timeright like people are expecting
more of you when you don't whenyou're not just behind a
computer screen but I think forme like there always is time if

(30:50):
you try and find it.
I think I also have to say I'mlucky, right?
Where I'm single, I'm young.
Yes, I'm in medical school, butI don't have to think about a
family right now.
And so a lot of my time whereother people are going to the
grocery store and cooking, it'smy time to create videos, right?
But I also do get up prettyearly.
And so I know if I have a videoI'm trying to get out, I
actually get up around 4 a.m.
sometimes.
So I graduated this pastDecember from medical school.

(31:14):
But up until then, I would getup at 4 a.m., work on my videos
until about like six and so thatwould either be research or
recording or usually what Iwould do is like I would do the
research the night before andthen I'd record in the morning
when I woke up and so then justhave it and then like edit
throughout the day and likeduring my lunch break and then
in the afternoon post that videothat I want like at 5 p.m.

(31:35):
right when I get off of workand so it was like a lot of
holding on to it and likeknowing that I like gonna come
back to it but that reallyworked for me because I was like
this is before any of myroommates get up okay cool I'm
at work I have lunch break letme just eat while I edit super
easy and then like later in theafternoon I can post if there's
any editing I have to do andthat's kind of the four hours
there you know like the four tosix is two hours maybe an hour

(31:57):
at lunch then an hour in theafternoon and boom, like I get a
video done.
And then like I, go back andforth on doing like simpler
videos where maybe i have like aliteral um like cut out of me
where i just like point tosomething if i really want to i
can just take that put it on thebackground of a video that i
saw during the day that i thinkwas like really relevant write
out a caption that explains itmore with my thoughts post it

(32:18):
boom done and those ones alwaysdo really well because it's like
starts conversation but timemanagement is something that i i
think it's all about findingthe time and like spacing it out
it isn't easy and it looksdifferent for everyone um I
think it's all about findingthose gaps in between and not
necessarily just putting it allin one chunk, but spreading it
out.
And then I, of course, like Ithink many other creators do

(32:40):
this too, batch create content.
And so if I know I have like aday off, I'll create 12, 20
videos so that when I am tootired to post anything, I can
just like use one of those andpost it later.

Andy Luttrell (32:52):
It seems like this kind of time management
thing is another skill you bringto the table, right?
Like you were running abusiness in fifth grade or
whatever, and doing a bunch ofstuff outside of your normal
schoolwork.
It seems like that in college,that was the case too.
So in some ways, this sort offeels like just a heightened
version of...
just the kind of person you'vealways been juggling both the

(33:15):
core responsibilities and thisother stuff that you want to do.

Joel Bervell (33:17):
Exactly.
Yeah.
And I think what's kind offunny is like, I used to do a
ton of extracurriculars growingup and now I don't really do any
extracurriculars, but this ismy extracurricular, you know?
And so I had mentioned that Iwas like in high, literally in
middle school, my siblingsactually started a nonprofit.
And so that was most of my timewhere after school, I was
spending six, seven hours afterschool working on this nonprofit
every single day.
And so don't do that anymore.

(33:39):
Don't do student government.
I'm not doing mentoring oranything like that.
And so this really becomes...
my new project.
And so I think I've reallypaced a lot of that other time
that I spent on extracurricularswith this.
But in some ways, they're verysimilar in terms of even
podcasting.
It's talking with people that Iadmire or just hosting in
general.
From creating videos, it's theresearch aspect of it.

(34:01):
It's doing an extracurricular,maybe putting together a brief
or something like that.
And so all very similar when itcomes down to the kind of work
I'm doing, but just looking atit in a different way and using
a different medium to reachpeople.
Do you ever just...
Watch a movie.
does that fit in all the timehey I was watching White Lotus
last night I got actually sothese past three weeks have been

(34:23):
on the move I was in MontgomeryAlabama for a talk then I went
to Rio for Carnival that was atSouth by Southwest and I was
giving three talks and I justgot back yesterday and I was
like exhausted and so what I waslike I'm supposed to get like
two videos done yesterday I waslike not gonna happen emailed
people saying hey not gonna getdone sat on my couch watched
White Lotus was very happy youknow so happens all the time

(34:44):
yeah I am very much self-carefirst.
So if I need to say someone isgoing to wait, they will wait
until I'm able to feel to mybest self.

Andy Luttrell (34:55):
So you teased the other stuff, right?
Like all this travel and allthis...
that seems to have been sparkedby the social media stuff.
And so I think the last timewhen I saw you in person, you
were like getting ready to flyto Norway for the Nobel Peace
Prize stuff.
Oh, wow.
That was a long time ago.
You never went to that coffeeplace I told you about, I
assume.
Oh, no.
Yeah, sorry.

(35:15):
It was so busy.
I was running around, yeah.
But so you did that.
You're running around there.
You're going to other things.
You've done work for the WhiteHouse and the UN.
You mentioned a bunch of travelyou just did in the last few
weeks.
And there's part of me that'slike, maybe I'm just showing my
age and I'm like, is this justwhat influencers do?
Like, is this the job or itcan't be right.
Like, so I'm curious kind ofwhen did that stuff start?

(35:38):
And that's another thing thatyou could sort of choose.
You could choose to dive in andburnouts.
You could choose to sort ofsay, I'm not going to bother
with all that stuff.
That's not why I do this.

Joel Bervell (35:50):
Yeah.

Andy Luttrell (35:50):
But like, how, how have you sort of handled
like taking those opportunitieswhen they come and And what are
they?
What are these newopportunities that have flowered
from this social media stuff?

Joel Bervell (36:01):
Yeah.
I should warn that the reasonwhy I'm doing so much right now
is I don't start residency untilJuly.
And so I joke that 2025 is myyear of yes, and 2026 is going
to be my year of no.
So right now I'm doingabsolutely everything.
Next year, you will not see meout and about.
I'll be in the hospital.
But to answer that question, Ithink...

(36:22):
really it was right when theCOVID pandemic not ended but
like we kind of came out of itthat's when I started getting a
lot of like people that had beenfollowing me online I think I
had been I had maybe a followingof like 200,000 on TikTok
probably and then like maybe50,000 on Instagram.
For reference, now I'm at like800,000 on TikTok and at half a

(36:43):
million on Instagram.
And then like other platformshave grown too.
But I think when I came out, alot of people that had seen me
online were like, oh, this guyseems kind of cool.
Can we bring him to myinstitution to speak?
And so started doing a lot oflike hospitals and speaking at
hospitals about the work I wasdoing.
That kind of grew and peoplestarted recommending me to other

(37:03):
hospitals or their peerorganizations.
I had also, even just incollege, done a lot of
different...
like conferences andnonprofits.
And so I'd been a part of thisthing called the Clinton Global
Initiative University, CGIU,which is where college students
can like propose some type ofidea that would change the
world.
And then like you get supportfrom the Clinton Foundation.

(37:24):
So they had seen the things Iwas doing online and they said,
do you want to come to CGIU as aspeaker?
So I got invited to that.
The FDA actually invited me tocome speak as well about pulse
oximeters because I'd seen myvideo and we're like, this is
interesting.
How are you getting sciencecommunication across?
And then it kind of startedblowing up where you think about
the different verticals whereyou can go because I'm talking

(37:44):
about tech policy misinformationand disinformation.
That reaches basically everyindustry.
And so Google invited me for atalk, for example, and then I
did South by Southwest andactually moderated like a
featured panel.
This was four years ago now.
I think all thoseopportunities, people started
seeing me and saying, hey, thisguy's someone who can moderate a

(38:06):
panel or can speak aboutscience or can talk about
misinformation or disinformationor talk about policy and what
that looks like today.
So it just started kind ofsnowballing.
It's kind of hard for me toquantify when I think back to it
because I've done so much.
And sometimes I write it downand I look through and I'm like,
wow, I've worked with the WhiteHouse, the UN, the CDC, the

(38:28):
Surgeon General's Office, FDA,name an institution that's
related to healthcare.
I've worked with them.
Name an institution that's evenrelated to tech, Google,
TikTok, Meta.
I've talked to all these placesand now I know people within
them as well.
And so I think it's, one, I'dsay actually it's not quite
normal within the influencerworld.
I think there are someinfluencers who do who do this.

(38:48):
But I knew that I didn't justwant to be an influencer in the
sense I wanted to createcontent.
I wanted to be more like athought leader.
And so I wanted to be the leadof my field and be able to talk
about these things from anauthoritative position.
And so I made sure that when Iwas taking on deals or even
talking to people, I keptrelationships.
I am really good friends withall the people that bring me on

(39:11):
to speak at an event.
I stay in contact with them.
I text them.
They become friends.
I think that's really importantto grow your brand because
There's a lot of gatekeepers.
And the reason why some peoplego to PR agencies or go to
management agencies is becausethose are gatekeepers that can
connect you to that next stage.
But if you have all thecontacts, then you are able to

(39:32):
get into these spaces.
So to answer your questiondirectly, probably not the most
normal.
I definitely am a weirdinfluencer.
But the sense where I feel likeI love doing this stuff and
being able to create things outof nothing and see where I can
go from it.
So you're managing this alsoyourself?
You haven't?
So I have, I am signed to anagency, but they just manage

(39:54):
brand deals.
Everything else is kind ofmyself, you know, and so.
All the

Andy Luttrell (39:58):
talks, all that stuff, it just go

Joel Bervell (39:59):
into your email account.
It goes to my email account.
It's inbound that comes to me.
And I now like, they basically,I have teams that work on
negotiation, but I'm very muchlike, I want to be in charge.
And they, once again, my type Apersonality, I'm like, I want
to be on every email chain.
I want to see every personwe're talking to.
If we're working with a brand,like I need a vet, like I do a
lot of that.

(40:20):
And it's because it's mypersonal brand and I think like
some people don't start doingthat till later on I'm really
happy I started off earlybecause it's made me see like
what I can and can't do on myown and where I need help and
where I don't need help and Ithink that people always ask
like what's the stage where youthink you need to get management
or you need to get like a teamand I always say when you can't

(40:41):
do the work all yourself you SoI've gotten teams to offload the
things that I think I'm okaywith offloading, but I still do
most of the work myself, whetherthat's creating scripts.
A lot of my friends now haveother people create scripts.
I don't think I'll ever do thatbecause I know the type of
content I create can't bereplicated.
I'm trying to bring differentgenres and industries together.

(41:01):
And unless someone's really asplugged in as I am to policy,
health, and tech all at the sametime, they're not going to be
able to create these videos andbe able to talk about it in the
way that I do.
And so I want my authenticvoice to still get out there.

Andy Luttrell (41:12):
What was the first thing that you did offload
to a team?
Like what of those things whereyou're like, oh, someone else
can do this part, please takeit.
Brand

Joel Bervell (41:25):
deals.
I hate negotiating.
I hate being, I hate having tosay that's enough money.
Give me more.
That was the first thing Isaid, you go take that on.
Next thing was like schedulingstuff.
And so like, car like if I'm ina city and I need a car to pick
me up or even flights andthings like that hate having to
book flights and it takes solong and so now I just say I

(41:45):
want a flight within this timesend it to my team they deal it
all I think those are the twobig things script writing I like
I said I like doing that it'sfun for me to figure out how do
I make this engaging wouldn'tgive that up videography is
something like editing issomething that a lot of my
friends offload I haven't donethat yet because I think my it's
pretty like I'm okay with halfan hour to an hour of extra work

(42:06):
to edit if It means it's mystyle.
I think every influencer willsay they get a lot of emails
saying, we can help you withmaking your videos more
engaging.
For me, my videos do wellenough, and I like the kind of
not...
I don't want to be the mostpolished.
I like the fact that it's notthe most polished because I
think it brings in a differentaudience of people that are just

(42:27):
saying, oh, this is raw.
This feels like new still.
And I like that.
But I think once you get alittle bit too polished,
sometimes it's like, whoa,where's this production quality
coming from?
And I feel like it's not uniqueto me.
It

Andy Luttrell (42:39):
does seem like there's a certain alchemy of
your hand on all of those partsthat once you start Farming it
out.
And like, you know, I get thoseemails too, where it's just
like, yeah, but I feel for you.
I know you're looking, I'm sureyou're talented, but like that,
there's no way that it's goingto be the same thing, right?

(43:02):
Like I do think there's a realpremium on, oh, this is the
person and it's their vision forwhat they're doing.
Yeah.
But unfortunately that parttakes a lot of

Joel Bervell (43:11):
time.
Exactly.
I will say like one, so oneexample of something that I was
like, I cannot do this on myown.
And so it's basically totallyoutsourced right now is I'm
starting a digital TV show.
And so it's called The DoctorIs In.
And I was like, there's zerochance I'm gonna be able, I
don't know how to do animation.
And so I was like, definitely ateam for that.
I don't know how to like bookout like a place to do like a

(43:32):
green screen or to hire a camerateam or even the right people
are.
And so about like three yearsago, one of my friends would
connect me with this doctor Hisname is Dr.
Jose Mori.
He runs a company called AdAstra Media.
And he asked me on our firstcall, what's your dream project?
And I said, to build ananimated TV show for the next
generation.
And so he's like, we can makethat happen.
And I'm so glad I did becausegoing through the process with

(43:55):
him, there's zero chance I couldhave done it on my own.
It would have taken me anextra...
five six years you know and soi think there are like things
like that where i like i know idon't have the talent to find
out who the best animators areor figure out how do you like do
a pitch deck um or even reachout to advertisers in a way that
can like actually support aproject i couldn't have done any
of that so that was like one ofthe biggest things i've

(44:17):
outsourced and Basically, otherthan jumping in to help with
fundraising or to help withactually posting online every so
often or to actually show upfor the shoot, they have a whole
team that's doing all of that,which has been absolutely
incredible.
So that's been one thing thatI'm like, oh, I can see how nice
it is when you have a wholeother team doing stuff, but it's

(44:37):
nice because it's an extensionof my brand, but not close
enough where I have to worryabout managing on the
day-to-day.

Andy Luttrell (44:44):
You mentioned brand deals, too, and there's a
part of this there's like amoney part of this of like
negotiating speaker fees andnegotiating brand deals.
And so like, you know, there isa world where like there's a
sustainable career here or, youknow, there's, and so, you know,
you're also at a uniqueposition.

(45:05):
You mentioned you're about tostart residency next year or so
or soon-ish.
July, so a few months, yeah.
So like it does to me lookingin look like you're at a,
crossroads as to like whetheryou go one way or the other or
you keep on doing sort of thissplit venture that you're doing
now how are you thinking of thatin terms of like the importance

(45:27):
of communication in sort ofyour future plans for yourself
versus oh this is like a funthing i'm doing for now but like
ultimately i'm gonna be adoctor

Joel Bervell (45:36):
yeah for me it's the latter like this sounds
weird but it's like been a funside quest in a way where it's
been like whoa this is likeopened up so many doors i didn't
expect but my goal is always tobe a has always been to be a
doctor and i think that comesthrough in all my content that i
create too it's like throughIt's the things I'm learning in
the moment and not learning inthe moment that I wish I was.

(45:59):
And it allows me to speak to anaudience in a more authentic
way.
And so for me, like in July, ifmy residency program, for
example, were to say, you can'tpost on social media, I'd kind
of be like, okay.
Like I, it's been a great run.
It's been fun.
I'll come back to it in threeto five years whenever I need
to.
And it'll always be there, youknow, and I'll always be

(46:19):
learning.
And that's the beauty of mychannel is it's, it's about the
things that I'm learning that Ithink more people should know
about.
Um, and I mean, it's grown somuch just over in such a quick
time, but for me, the ultimategoal is to be the best doctor I
can be.
That's what I came into thisfor.
That's even why I post onsocial media, because I think
part of being a doctor is beinga good communicator, um, And

(46:40):
that's all I'm trying to do isto be a good doctor at the end
of the day.
And there's so many differentways to do that.
Social media has been myvehicle right now.
Maybe one day that'll be on TV.
Maybe one day that's just in mydoctor's office.
That's really how I think aboutit.

Andy Luttrell (46:54):
You've mentioned too that you've had people talk
to you who want to do whatyou're doing.
If you think about a newgeneration of people who are
using social media, social mediain the five years you've been
doing this kind of work on ithas already changed from A to Z.
Looking forward...
someone who wants to dosomething like what you're

(47:16):
doing, but hasn't started yet.
What's sort of the kind ofadvice that you give in that
situation?
Well, the first advice is onethat

Joel Bervell (47:24):
everyone hates, which is just start, right?
Just post that first video.
Like it can be so nervewracking, but you have to start
somewhere.
And sometimes it'll blow up,sometimes it doesn't, but you
don't know what's going to workuntil you actually start
posting.
The second thing I always sayis find your why.
And so figure out what is itthat's going to drive you into
creating that content.
Is it because you like seeingpeople when they see your

(47:45):
content?
Is it that you like informing?
Is it that you likeentertaining?
What is it about your contentthat's going to make people say,
I like this guy, you know?
And you have to like buildingcommunity because if you don't
like building community, it'snot the place for you.
This is where you're going tohave tons of eyes on you at all
times.
And so you need to be okay withcurating and managing a
community.

(48:05):
I think the other thing I'llsay is like, you need to
understand or like at least be alittle bit interested in the
ecosystem of social media.
Meaning you need to understandthe things that TikTok is doing
and Meta is doing and likeSnapchat.
Snapchat's like one that peopledon't talk about, but they want
people to make a lot of moneyon there, are huge creators on
there, are getting a lot of goodinformation or just sharing

(48:26):
their daily lives, you know?
And so understanding theecosystem is really important.
I think I was always superinterested in social media.
If I wasn't in medicine, Iwould have been in tech and
probably been working at asocial media company.
My brother worked at bothTwitter and at Microsoft.
And I think I was like, oh, Icould have actually seen myself
doing that as well.
But I think reallyunderstanding the ecosystem is

(48:48):
something that helps you get anedge over other creators and
understand how the algorithmworks.
At the end of the day, thealgorithm is looking to push out
specific things.
If you know what it's lookingfor, you can actually game the
system.
And so I talked about in thebeginning, music on TikTok, but
even like specific words orhashtags or joining programs.
And so I did a ton of programs.

(49:09):
Through TikTok, it was theTikTok for Black Creatives
program.
For Meta, it was the We theCulture program.
Threads has a program rightnow.
Snapchat has programs.
YouTube has programs.
So all these are things that ifyou get plugged into, that's
how you go from just being a...
a creator that doesn't reallystand out, to actually being one
that's highlighted by theplatform, which will then push

(49:31):
out your content more.
So that's kind of like along-term game.
But the whole idea is reallyunderstanding the system,
understanding yourself and yourwhy, and then being able to
really understand what is itthat you want to bring to the
table that doesn't exist alreadyor that you're going to do in a
different way.

Andy Luttrell (49:47):
That's great.
Well...
Good luck with your year ofyes.
All the things that come withit.
It's been exciting to see thestuff that you've gotten to do
and to hear about sort of like,it is remarkable that like over
this whole span, the stuff thatyou're making is still kind of
right in the pocket of thespirit of the stuff you started

(50:07):
with, which I think is rare forlike a social media story like
this.
So kudos on that.
And thanks for taking the timeto break it down.
Thank you so much.
Appreciate it.
Thank you to Joel Breville fortaking the time to talk about

(50:28):
his work.
I have to take him at his wordthat he takes breaks because I
still don't quite know how hedoes it all.
Check out the episode webpagefor a link to Joel's website
where you can learn more aboutall the amazing stuff that he's
doing.
This series on sciencecommunication is a special
presentation of my podcast,Opinion Science, a show about
the science of our opinions,where they come from, and how we

(50:48):
talk about them.
You can subscribe any old placewhere they have podcasts and be
sure to check outopinionsciencepodcast.com for
links to things that come up inthis episode and ways to support
the show.
And whoever you are, I hopeyou're enjoying the show.
And I'm hoping this summerseries will reach folks with a
keen interest in sciencecommunication.
So please tell people about it.

(51:08):
Post online, email a friend,make a poster and stick it to a
wall.
These are wild times, and Ithink it's more important than
ever to help the worldunderstand good science and
champion its value, so let's allmake an effort to get better at
doing that.
Okie doke, thank you so muchfor listening, and I'll see you
next week for more SciCommSummer.

Alex Dainis (51:30):
I have seen a number of platforms that have
clearly started focusing on justget bigger and bigger and
bigger and bigger.
And you can see the quality godown over time.
And I personally would ratherhave a hundred science
communicators who all have50,000 followers, but we're all
sort of putting out slower,better researched content than

(51:54):
having one science influencerwho has 5 million followers.
My name is Alex and I makescience videos.
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