May 13, 2023 • 31 mins
Today I have Hassan on the podcast and we’re going to dive into his journey, which started with a lie to his parents! We’ll dive a bit into entrepreneurship, the merit of agencies as a way to jumpstart your career, AI, and some of the original research and work he’s doing in his current role.
Website: https://hassanuddeen.com/
Blog: https://hassanuddeen.com/blog/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/hassan-uddeen/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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Phil (00:00):
welcome to the Opinionated SEO Today, I have Hassan with me
(00:04):
and we're gonna talk about allkinds of things like content
marketing, ai, of course, andanything else that comes up,
especially his journey as,someone who's been in somewhat
of a hybrid role in his.
Way he's worked SEO and thetechnical side of things.
And So we'll jump into that, butas I always like to start, let's
do a couple questions, uh, frommy pod decks then we'll jump
(00:27):
into the SEO things.
So welcome to the show.
Hassan ud-deen (00:30):
Thanks, Phil.
Nice to be here.
Phil (00:33):
If you could try out a job for a day just to see if you'd
like it, what would that job be?
Hassan ud-deen (00:38):
Ooh.
Th these are really interestingquestions.
Uh, They're good.
investment banker, hear so muchabout it.
I wanna know.
It's got, there's numbersinvolved.
Um, yeah.
Uh, or maybe data analyst.
That's the tie between them.
Phil (00:55):
And if you had to go like complete opposite, like no
computer involved, what, whatkind of job would you do?
Hassan ud-deen (01:01):
Ooh.
I think mechanic.
I think being a mechanic wouldbe an interesting, interesting
thing to do.
Phil (01:07):
work on like classic cars or something like that, solving
problems.
It's still the same as seo.
You're still solving problemstrying to figure out how to make
it run more efficiently.
Right.
Hassan ud-deen (01:16):
I guess it's more physically tangible and,
uh, the, the end result is, uh,palpable.
Right?
Like you, you can see what'shappening and.
There's a visible resultattached to it.
But, uh, yeah, you could, youcould apply the same problem
solving principles.
Phil (01:29):
Our garbage hasn't been picked up for like two days.
They're running late in usthinking.
is that one of those jobs that,you know, people joke about in
high school?
Oh, yeah.
You know, don't, don't become a,a trash guy.
You know, that's, that's whathappens if you don't go to
college and these guys aremaking six figures and, they,
they just need more people.
I'm thinking is that, is thatlike the dream job now?
Hassan ud-deen (01:48):
Yeah, it's, it's so true.
Cause that's like happened inthe uk.
Like we've, we've had the samejoke.
There's been week, there'sactually been week periods of
weeks on end where the garbagehasn't been collected.
And, uh, It's mainly due to thebinmen going on strike and
they're asking for more moneyand they're actually getting it.
And, uh, their, their hours aregood.
Like these guys are waking up atlike 6:00 AM and finishing by
(02:10):
two and, uh, they're, they'reearning pretty, pretty graduate
salaries, so
Phil (02:14):
Okay.
May maybe we're in the wrongbusiness, or That's, that's the
new side.
Hustle working on, on garbagetrucks and doing SEO on the
weekends.
I don't know,
Hassan ud-deen (02:25):
Reverse the rolls right.
Phil (02:26):
Exactly.
speaking of jobs, what's theoddest job you've ever taken to
earn a buck?
Hassan ud-deen (02:33):
Ooh, this takes me back.
Um, I thought I was suited tothis job.
Turns out I was a bit of amismatch.
and I lasted.
I didn't even last the wholeday, to be honest.
I talk about this sometimes.
I think I've mentioned on myblog or somewhere else.
Uh, I lied to my parents when Istarted this whole journey of
freelancing and, and, uh,getting into the game.
I actually did take this job, soit wasn't a complete lie, but I
(02:53):
pretended to keep doing it.
And the job was, um, you know,being one of harassing people
for, for charity, right?
So working in the town center, Ithink it was a company called
Oxfam, and, it was a pro coldapproaching people and asking
them if they want to sign up fora monthly subscription to
providing water rate.
So it wasn't really a bad cause,but it just, so, it just felt so
wrong to me as a person who.
(03:15):
You know, I've always been a bitintroverted, bit of a bookworm,
and here I am in, in the middleof, town just approaching people
and asking them if they wannagive money to charity.
So that was one of the hardestjobs that I've had.
And I quit like before the dayended.
Phil (03:29):
Wow.
So, uh, what was the motivationto go freelance then for you?
Hassan ud-deen (03:34):
Yeah.
I dunno if you've heard of thebook, uh, the Millionaire Fast
Lane by, I'm JTA Marco.
Yeah, that I, I kind of pickedthat up when I was 15.
So very young, veryimpressionable, and I was geared
a bit towards the idea of,entrepreneurship or just
business or, and marketing ingeneral.
I always liked marketing andcopy or the art of writing.
So, um, picked up this book.
(03:55):
the value of business, a lot ofmy friends, I was the only one
outta my friends who had thiskind of interest at, at, at that
point.
Now everyone seems to beinterested in entrepreneurship
or freelancing or a side hustle,but I'd say like 10 years ago it
wasn't as hyped up or, a, as a.
Consistent theme as it is now.
So, um, I was just interested ingaining skills and freelancing
seemed like one of those ways.
(04:16):
As someone who had no degree wasvery, very young, very little
work experience.
I thought, hey, I can cut myteeth into something and maybe
leverage those skills in thefuture, to do something else or
sell something.
And, uh, that's where itstarted.
Phil (04:29):
I think years ago they were called consultants and that
was the the term that peopleused when they got fired and
they were contracting forsomeone or they were out on
their own.
And that's evolved into sidehustles or entrepreneur.
Cause I think entrepreneur hadsomewhat of a negative
connotation and they're like,oh, you're gonna fail.
But in today's day and age no,it's, it's like, it's okay.
(04:53):
It's okay to be an entrepreneur.
Hassan ud-deen (04:54):
Yeah, it's almost glamorized.
Right?
And um, and I You saidconsultant, you're so right,
because I think about themtimes.
I think it was around when FrankKern was like the, the in guru
then, and he was pitching thewhole become a consultant thing.
So he reminds me.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's funny how the terminologyevolved.
Phil (05:11):
I think it takes a very certain type of person.
It's hard for that to be abusiness,
Hassan ud-deen (05:16):
Yeah, it's true.
Phil (05:17):
So then where did you pick up all of your SEO from when you
first started?
Hassan ud-deen (05:22):
Yeah, I had an interesting journey.
Like I often talk about, like, Iwear both hats of content
marketing person and also seo.
I'm the lead content marketingmanager and seo, uh, company.
For me, the gateway was atcontent writing itself.
So the freelance scale that Ifocused on, you know, when I
lied to my parents, quoteunquote lied to my parents, I
spent time going to the libraryevery day.
(05:43):
Um, John Morrow, I dunno if youyou're familiar with him.
I took his guest bloggingcourse.
it was just like an introductoryguide to.
Getting your first guest postsout.
and that was my first taste of,publishing online and getting
some proven samples out there.
And my intention wasn't even toget traffic, it was just to have
like samples of work.
And, by the time I completed thecourse, I took it to heart.
(06:05):
you know, one of the themes ofthe course was that if you want.
A great sample that gets youhired and showcases your skills,
just go bigger and better thaneveryone else.
And this was like when theskyscraper technique was a big
thing, you know, going reallyabove and beyond with content.
So like, I think I wrote like a10,000 word guide for my first
guest post.
And, um, it was a lot of effort.
a lot of fire under my belly atthe time as well, cuz I, I was
(06:27):
having difficulties living athome that actually helped me
secure my first clients, uh, incontent.
For content writing clients.
So I secured my first contentwriting clients from that.
And little by literally, Irealized from the analytics on
the my WordPress site that, hey,I'm getting traffic.
So I was just from, purely fromthe back links.
Like I knew, no, nothing abouttitle tags or on page seo.
(06:50):
I was literally, I literallyjust had, you know, Backlinks
coming to the site.
And I was getting like 1500,1600 visits a month.
And this was like when guestblogging was starting to die
out.
It was, it was an overusedtactic.
So even then I realized like thevalue of content for seo, for
traffic generation and organicleads, and that spiraled the,
(07:10):
that kickstarted like the restof the journey.
Phil (07:13):
when you think about it, with Google's updates with
helpful content update mostrecently.
The fact that they've gotten ridof a lot of their experience
metrics like page speed and suchjust goes to show you that that
original high quality content isstill like the most impactful
thing you could do to your site.
Hassan ud-deen (07:32):
Yeah, I agree.
And, uh, it's something like,it's almost comical in, in s e
i, in my opinion, because youget everyone hearing about the
latest update and SEO startlosing their hair and there's
101.
Tweets about the same microdetail of Google did this and
Google did that, and JohnMueller said this, and John
Mueller said that.
(07:52):
But ultimately, when you kind ofread behind the lines, uh, and,
and you dissect what's beingsaid, it's kind of the similar
theme.
Again, you're seeing a similartheme of we're refining content,
we're making sure that thepeople who, um, if you know in
Google's.
Own words from their actions aswell.
Like they're just making surethat content is of a high
caliber, high quality,trustworthy, and coming from an
(08:13):
authoritative, expert, right?
So that that's somethingconsistent that I, that I see
happening and that people aren'tgaming the system.
and, and I see you justconstantly return to that.
More and more we're seeing likea usability player role.
And then also the, the games isleveling up as well.
People are.
SEOs and content people arebecoming savvy.
they upskilling in differentways.
People are using originalresearch for back links.
(08:34):
You got, um, ferry Kazaki Searchfrom Search Intelligence is one
of my favorite examples.
But, you know, adding thatcreative element to SEO and
content marketing, you see thathappening as well.
And I think that's where some ofthe future is.
Phil (08:48):
So how did you get from like Good to Great?
From a content marketingstandpoint?
Hassan ud-deen (08:54):
Yeah, I think, I think great's always, um, I'm
always learning, so dunno if I'mgreat yet definitely would
aspire to be as best as I can,uh, in my role.
but it definitely had someproven results.
I think for me it was.
Learning the skills that youneed in the time that you need
them, um, based on the business'needs.
Right?
I wrote a blog, uh, blog post onmy own website, like thinking
(09:16):
about, and I didn't realize thisuntil I sat down to write like
it as a case study, whatsometimes it's not an obvious
insight that.
Is usually propagated in the SEOcircle.
So for example, attra, which wasthe previous company I worked
for, the business model played ainteresting role in how we, use
SEO and use content to.
rank and also spread ourmessage, right?
(09:37):
So it's a dual, dual prongedapproached, so the way to works
is that it's a, it has a networkof partners who resell the
software as part of theirimplementation, right?
So it's a learning managementsystem and there's over like 80
partners who sell our, oursoftware.
And one of the things that I wasactually.
Proud about what, once Ireflected on it was that we came
(09:59):
up with a little minisyndication network where we
gave all our partners contentand they would link back to our
content, on the, on the originalToro website.
However, it was a win-win foreveryone.
So our partners who had theirown clients and in their own
issues looked like expertsbecause they published content
about learning in the e-learningindustry.
And then they linked back tolike a pillar page or a few
(10:21):
other pages that we had thatwere attempting to rank for
certain keywords.
and that was born out ofadapting the strategy and being
a bit resourceful based on whatI had, what I could do, and, and
looking at the needs of thebusiness and any advantages
there.
So I think adaptivity is, is oneof those things.
There's no clear cut answers foreverything.
Phil (10:39):
Yeah.
I think the reliance or, Lookingat things like your partners and
different companies that you dowork with is probably one of the
most underutilized link buildingtactics.
even going back to if you're alocal plumber and you go to a
small shop for a lot of yoursupplies, there's definitely.
(11:02):
interlinking opportunities therethat can help.
And it's local and it'scontextual.
And if you really like the typesof materials they have and
you're a good customer, there'sdefinitely opportunities in
there.
And then, you know, scale thatto enterprise level and every
company has all these partnersthat they work with and there's
no reason why you can't leveragethat or create content, like you
(11:23):
said, that ends up beingsyndicated.
But you are the mothership.
Hassan ud-deen (11:27):
Yeah, exactly.
You put it beautifully.
and as you.
Breach the enterprise circles,like the, the orders of
magnitude increasing and the,it's like the butterfly effect,
right?
Like any changes inimplementations you make have a,
such a drastic effect and theROI just becomes greater.
So it's, it's, it's really coolto, to kind of use that
creativity.
Phil (11:45):
And now you've kind of touched on working with like the
partners, but when you're doingthe content marketing, what's
your type of approach for reallybeing able to connect to your
audience?
Hassan ud-deen (11:54):
Yeah.
It's always been a match betweenthe messaging of the
organization and what most ofour users, the messaging that me
users have seen, uh, in themarketplace.
Right?
So, for example, I, I'll go backto Tora and I can give an
example here, uh, hack the boxif you'd like.
But, um, One of the things thatwe, Tora introduced new
(12:19):
products, right?
And, and, and unified them undera suite.
But you could say they breachedinto the territory of category
creation.
Because you have employeeexperience software, you have
concepts like employeeexperience and talent
management.
And we concocted a.
A term we coined the concept oftalent experience and what that,
(12:40):
what that meant by ourdefinition was uniting, the key
factors that engage employeesand make people wanna learn,
make pe you know, increaseretention at a company.
And, the approach was a lot ofresearch, speaking to customers,
listening to our customerstories, and then picking out
like the little.
Consistencies and picking outthe little patterns and threads
(13:02):
that I saw customers say, orpains they expressed.
And usually you, the devil's inthe details here, and you find
consistent themes and patterns,and then you can integrate that
into your messaging.
you can build contrariannarratives on that.
Uh, and you then you have anopinionated or interesting thing
to say, right?
You're not just, um, anothervoice or another company with a
(13:22):
megaphone.
Saying, Hey, this is good, thisis bad.
You actually have a uniquestance or relevant stance to
your audience.
So that's something I, I stilllove to do.
I still love to do case studiesand, and speak to customers
because that's how you, I thinkyou keep your ear to the ground
as an SEO and as as a contentperson.
Phil (13:38):
Yeah.
And, and rely on that sales teamto tell you what's not working,
what those objections are out
Hassan ud-deen (13:43):
Yeah.
Yeah, totally.
Phil (13:45):
they'll go on and on about that.
But at the end of the day, thatmight also be something that
your product team and you canwork together on and help build
something that solves a problemthat nobody really realized was
out there.
Hassan ud-deen (13:59):
Yeah.
Um, and like speaking of likecontent strategy, like we, that
even inspired like a, acompetitor or alternatives type
content strategy.
So, you know, Tora versus, um, Ithink mood was one of our
biggest ones.
I think we still rank on pageone for Tora versus Moodle.
I haven't checked in a while,but Moodle was one of our
biggest competitors at the time.
(14:20):
So we did a post where we reallybroke down in depth, Versus
Tora, what's unique about us andwe're positioning ourselves as
the enterprise solution, whichwe, which we were at the time.
so that's another.
way in which content and SEO wasleveraged, was dual wielded, you
could say, to, to to fuellegion.
And I think that was one of ourhighest, when on a first
(14:40):
interaction base, uh, in GoogleAnalytics, um, that was
consistently referring MQs, uh,and, and, demo demo requests to
the tow choice sales team.
Phil (14:51):
this leads me into the most favorite thing that we
always get to talk about, whichis ai generative content.
And that's probably a perfectexample of something where the
AI tool would completely failat, I don't care.
how much data you feed it.
It just doesn't have thecontextual understanding or the
in-depth product knowledge ormaybe even the right information
(15:15):
to create something that's,that's actually convincing and
easy to use.
Hassan ud-deen (15:21):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Phil (15:22):
what are your thoughts then?
What's, what's the AI contenttools gonna be doing for people
besides cluttering up the web?
Hassan ud-deen (15:29):
Yeah, it's, it's, I see it going in a few
directions.
I see it being leveraged a lotfor micro content tasks like
editing, creating a certain toneof voice, um, quick research.
Getting a draft up really quick.
Uh, as you said, like the, um,the, the things that require
(15:53):
detailed analysis or.
Extensive product knowledge, uh,marketplace awareness, um,
ingenuity and creativity.
I don't think you're gonna youanytime soon anyway.
I don't think you're gonna beable to leverage AI for that.
And in terms of the widerlandscape of SEO and content
combined, I think one of themain things is gonna be, that's
(16:14):
gonna help marketers stand outis, uh, original research.
So it's something that we'reworking on at Hack the Box, like
we have two gated reports, uh,on the go.
We've we're surveying ouraudience to get insights on
specific topics, um, and.
That's something that AI can'tdo.
You can't survey, you know,10,000 people and then break
(16:35):
down their insights and do allthe data analysis for you.
You can assist probably in someof the micro steps, but on the
micro level, it's, it's notgonna be able to do that.
And then even before you takethose steps towards such
research, you need to know likewhat kind of, topics or themes
you're picking at.
So for example, one of the oneswe're potentially picking at is
like skills acquisition incybersecurity.
(16:55):
it's just something that, it'svery nuanced.
and so that's that.
And, uh, l m is not gonna beable to, you know, it's, it's a
task and l l m won't be able toperform just yet.
And, uh, yeah, I, I think as acontent marketer, I think it's
one of the, one of the bestthings to kind of invest in at
this point because, um, if you.
(17:16):
Look at off page SEO as well.
It's great photo for back links.
Uh, it's unique content from acontent marketing perspective,
and it's something that an AItool can't do.
So from a job securityperspective, if you've got that
skill, you're less likely to bereplaced, in my opinion.
Phil (17:31):
and you had mentioned this before, you know, creating a
term and, and that's somethingthat I pitch heavily.
You know, if you're first tomarket and this, there's no
search volume, that's okay.
But in three years I.
Is there gonna be a ton ofsearch volume?
Because now you are a regularphrase and I think Spark Toro
did that, with Rand Fishkin.
(17:53):
I mean, that was basically, theycreated a whole segment of
research that didn't reallyexist, and so they didn't do s e
O because.
they, they really had to do moremarketing than anything, let
people know that this existsbecause people weren't searching
for it.
And I think that's the otherarea that AI will never be able
(18:13):
to do because if there's noinformation on it, how are you
going to generate anything fromit?
So if it comes from your head,it comes from these internal
discussions and creative, uh,groups coming together and focus
groups and, and all of that.
This is all nothing that's outthere that AI can get its hands
on.
and yeah, maybe you can helpsummarize what you put together
(18:34):
or create bullet points out ofit, but at the end of the day,
it's not gonna be able to createit.
Hassan ud-deen (18:39):
Yeah.
Yeah, exactly.
Exactly.
And I, I think the gap willwiden between people who are
able to engineer and like createand.
Extract these unique insightsand, and unique messages from,
from their companies, from theirthought leaders, from their
subject matter experts versuspeople who are just rehashing
the cheap, low end kind of s e oe blog post that we see
(18:59):
everywhere.
Right?
So, and there's a fine linebetween doing both.
Like you can.
Do an s e blog post and insertyour messaging and, and have a
product led approach as well.
but again, like I, I thinkyou're gonna start seeing that
fine line, become a lot moreapparent, uh, in, in the coming
months and years, uh, with, withAI content.
Phil (19:19):
And then it comes down to the skillset of the individual
person.
And I know you kind of.
Talked about a bit of yourjourney, you know, starting out
more as that freelance role andfiguring things out and the
content side, and slowly addingthe seo.
Would you do it differently ifyou were to start over again
today?
Hassan ud-deen (19:36):
It's an interesting question.
I think one of the things Ireally enjoyed and only did in
the last year or so was justtake it on a couple of agency
gigs.
and I really enjoyed thatbecause a part of, I think I
have a, a part of me that's abit of a data geek.
I love looking at Google searchconsult, seeing a lot of
properties and then diggingaround and seeing, hey, okay,
(19:57):
did there was an update inSeptember or March and.
eight out of the 10 propertiesin this agencies, Google Search
Console, they're all showingsimilar trends and patterns of
what's going on here.
Right.
that's something I wish I didmore or because, In an agency
environment, you, you're justsubject to so much different
industries and, and the learningis just, it's brutal, but it's,
(20:18):
it's, it's amazing at the sametime.
So, I even have it on my cv, aresume and apply for jobs that
I'm a bit skills obsessed or I'ma fi to learn.
I'm a, I'm a learning addict.
Uh, so I, I just love digginginto data, having new insights
and going out and practicingsomething or just having an
excuse to go, to go.
Um, Try something out.
so I think an agency environmentis the, is is the perfect place
(20:39):
for that.
So I'm actually grateful that Ihad that experience, recently.
but that's something I probablywish I did more.
And, Yeah, I had some greatmentors along the way as well.
Uh, I worked with Tommy, TommyWalker.
and that was really early.
Um, that was like within acouple of years.
I had a, a brief, uh, stint withhim at Shopify Plus.
just like the, the caliber ofeditor that he is was, was
(21:00):
really uplifting, uh, taught mea lot about.
How to approach the page and,you know, the ethics of content
and creating standards for yourwriters and having, you know,
above going above just a defaultstyle guide and having, a unique
way of your, your brand's dna,right?
Your, your content d n.
So those kind of, I wassubjected to that early.
(21:20):
Uh, thanks to mentors like him.
Uh, still speak to him here andthere today, but, Yeah, I, I
think I wouldn't change too muchapart from having a, a bit more,
uh, exposure to diverseindustries to see different
patterns and trends.
Phil (21:33):
I think the agencies are underrated as far as an
educational opportunity or tojumpstart a career.
You really get.
Well, and it depends on whichagency, but you really get
experience in everything frome-commerce to local sites, to
enterprise, to small mom andpops.
depending on the agency, theymight take it all on.
(21:54):
You might be exposed tointernational SEO one day and
the next day, you're working onsomething completely different
and you get to see what works,what doesn't, and the collective
experience from the people thatwork there.
Hassan ud-deen (22:07):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And like if you, your onlyexperience is B2B SaaS and then
you gotta jump into e-commerceor you know, a casino, a brutal
YM y L industry, like, know,casino or something, one, you
might not be fit for it.
And if you've already had thatexperience, you can parlay that,
that experience into, yourcurrent role.
Right.
So it it, it's really helpfulto, to have that experience.
(22:29):
And, uh, I advocate if somebodywas starting now, I, I, I'd
advocate just even a, even ayear or so, or whatever time
they can put in an agency, in agood agency anyway, is time well
spent for learning.
Phil (22:40):
So what other ways would you have someone who's just
starting out, maybe they'reabout to graduate college or
they're skipping college andthey want to jump right into it.
Where would you tell them tostart and get those skills?
Hassan ud-deen (22:51):
Yeah, funny question.
I'm gonna put myself on blasthere, but, um, uh, I would, I,
I'd say go out and build yourown project.
So, um, have a niche There's awhole niche in SEO that you are
at, anyone most people arefamiliar with.
It's just like building nichewebsites, ranking them and
selling them.
Website flipping.
I'd go and follow them guysbecause they have a different
(23:11):
way of approach and thinkingBecause it's a full spectrum,
right?
They're doing content strategy,they're doing the hiring,
they're optimized, they have amonetization strategy.
I think that's really a reallycool project to start if you are
starting out, if you havecapital, buy one, if, if you
can, if not, build one fromscratch.
You both are good experiences,in my opinion.
I'd say to do both.
and that's where, that's, that'swhere I'd encourage users to
(23:33):
start.
It's funnily enough, I amactually gonna eat my own dog
food soon.
I've launched a website in thee-commerce space.
it's just a test website for SEOand marketing purposes, and to
kind of build out in public.
so that's something I'm excitedto kind of share, hoping to
document my journey on YouTube.
So, gonna, gonna take my ownadvice there.
Phil (23:49):
we'll put links here in the show notes to it so people
can follow you along.
Is it, is it live right now?
Can people
Hassan ud-deen (23:55):
It's not live at the moment.
I don't wanna share it cuz Idon't wanna skew the results.
But, uh, I do want to share likethe, the journey in terms of
analytics and the Google searchconsult data and, what
initiatives I'm doing.
I do have a YouTube channel, uh,that I'll be sharing the journey
on, and I'm my LinkedIn, so it'dbe, it'd be cool if you could,
plug that in and then people canfollow me along.
So hopefully launch that in thenext couple of weeks.
Phil (24:14):
we'll definitely do that.
My number one advice has alwaysbeen to someone who wants to get
into it is build a website.
Start there and you're gonnastart asking questions, and
that's the right way to do it isask a lot of questions, try
things out.
I've got a website that I usethat just has AI content and
it's got some stuff on therefrom three years ago and some
(24:36):
stuff from a couple weeks ago.
And it's very interesting to seehow Google reacts to different
types of content, copy, pasteversus edited.
Versus outsourced.
And.
it's just a playground is reallywhat it is.
And I highly suggest having, atthe very least, a playground,
but there's a reason why weoften don't see a whole lot of
(24:57):
very, very senior SEOs isbecause they've got their own
project, an affiliate marketingproject, or a coaching project
or something like that.
That's where they're makingtheir money because it's their
own money and they can grow itwith as much effort as they want
to put into it.
Hassan ud-deen (25:12):
Yeah.
Yeah, that, that's awesome.
And I totally agree.
and it also benefits, again,your skills and as you said,
like you'll always learn from,the reaction of your sandbox
side as well.
So it's, it's a win-win in myopinion.
Yeah.
Phil (25:25):
Is there, um, anything in kind of the current roles that
you're doing now that's kind ofexciting that you're working on?
Hassan ud-deen (25:31):
Yeah.
I'd say for me it's the, uh, thebiggest things are the gated
report.
the gated kind of research, theoriginal thought leadership that
we're working on, crafting thatmessaging, going after a more
B2B audience.
So for example, I hacked the boxwhere at we've historically been
A renowned provider ofcybersecurity training.
Uh, we've been known to makecyber security a fun and
(25:52):
engaging experience, a gamifiedplatform, is what a lot of
consumers know us for.
and that's bridged into it beinga platform now for, the B2B
world.
So, Enterprise teams taking on,I'm actually writing a case
study about this, but enenterprise teams taking on the,
hack the box platform to traintheir users in very technical,
hands-on skills.
(26:13):
so that's something I, I'm, I'mreally passionate about.
I, I find it very interestingand above all, uh, conducting
the original research behindthat and, uh, getting the
message out there to people and,and the wider cyber sector
community about how, Users arebehaving in terms of learning
skills, acquisition in adifferent industry, in, in
cybersecurity.
So yeah, that, that's somethingI'm really passionate, about
and, uh, looking forward toworking on in our current work.
(26:35):
And also, we're fleshing out ourcontent team.
so that's something I'm reallyexcited about.
We're launching a contributorprogram, hiring guest writers,
and also bring, we're gonna bebringing on a full-time, hire
soon for the content marketingrole.
so yeah, fleshing that out.
it's really exciting, very fastpaced and, a lot of moving
components, but, we're seeingdrastic roi.
Yeah, so like, I think why orwhy it's already been like 150%
(26:59):
increase on like blockage viewsand, non-brand clicks even,
which is something I'm reallyover the moon about as an seo.
So, um, seeing non-brand clicksimprove that much, it's quite
good to see.
Yeah.
Phil (27:10):
yes.
Cybersecurity is one of thosefields that I don't see slowing
down anytime soon.
Hassan ud-deen (27:18):
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's, it's evolving constantly.
And that's the, uh, the thrilland the Russia of the Cybersec
landscape.
And it's, it's one of thereasons why our product actually
is very popular amongst theaudience because, Being able to
digest, like the constant fluxof, of threats and, uh, new
threat groups and attack vectorsand all this kind of stuff.
(27:38):
Being able to digest that andcreate training for your people
is, is a really hard thing todo.
So, that's where our productcomes in and It creates a lot of
SEO opportunity and contentopportunity as well.
And it kind of forces us toexercise prioritization, as an
organization and as a contentand SEO function.
So, yeah, it's, there's no signsof it slowing down.
I, I think the, the need willjust, will constantly expand as
(27:58):
we are seeing.
Phil (27:59):
you've got your e-commerce side, you've got your things
like cybersecurity.
if you're new and you're lookingto get into a field, look at
areas that are growing, look atareas that need help getting
online, that need help beingfound that maybe were
traditionally brick and mortar,I mean, Blockbuster's gone.
Netflix took over.
Right?
(28:20):
It's, it's those kinds ofthings.
Where do you see certain placesthat are just not gonna exist in
a few years from now and they'reonline?
That that's a huge opportunitythere to help with that
transition.
Hassan ud-deen (28:32):
Yeah.
And also like leverage yourexperiences that you've had in
previous industries.
So before Hack the Box, I thinkone of the, I dunno if it was a
game changer or like a tip, thescales heavily, but one of the
things I, I had experienced inwas, as I had mentioned
previously, was the learningmanagement.
software, the B2B SaaS that Iworked for, a SaaS software
company that sold learningmanagement systems.
(28:52):
And, the, the topic revolvedaround learning and.
It kind of bridges nicely to, tothe next role, which was about
cyber security training and, andlearning as well.
So there's similar threads, andit shows that, maybe you have
some referenceable experiencesto, to parlay into your new
role.
So, uh, I'd encourage people tokind of use that as well and
(29:13):
communicate that on interviewsand, and within, roles, when
talking to a potential, hiringmanager or something, and, right
about what you're doing.
Uh, I think, I think having alittle LinkedIn portfolio is a
good thing.
even though it's always can bechallenging to keep up with on a
frequent basis.
I think that's one of the, thebest things to do.
Have like a, if you're gonna besuper simple, like have a Google
Doc, just write something thatyou're doing, write how it went,
(29:36):
and just build that in publicand share.
And I think that can go a longway as a simple stress-free
strategy.
Phil (29:41):
Yeah, I think that's great advice.
if people don't know that you'vedone it, they're not gonna know
that you did it.
And how else?
If they're looking for someonewho has some experience and
expertise and they've beenfollowing you, you'd be
surprised how quickly peoplewill reach out saying, you know,
we'd love for you to consult forus, or, we have this role and
you've been working on this samekind of problem we're trying to
(30:03):
solve.
Do you have some time to talk tosomeone here?
Hassan ud-deen (30:08):
Yeah, totally.
Totally.
Phil (30:09):
Yeah.
Great networking opportunities.
Definitely.
Hassan ud-deen (30:12):
A hundred percent.
Yeah.
Phil (30:14):
Well, I appreciate your time today.
we don't hear too manyperspectives where you start out
more in the freelance role,build up that skillset, and then
go agency or out, then goin-house.
it's a really interestingjourney and, I hope your parents
are okay with, that you, youdidn't tell'em that's what
you're doing, or I don't know ifyou've told them yet.
Maybe they'll find out here whenwe publish.
Hassan ud-deen (30:34):
Yeah, I think that it's going live here.
Sorry, mom and dad, if youlisten,
Phil (30:38):
Again, appreciate your time.
Hassan ud-deen (30:40):
cheers, Phil.
Just, um, thank you for, for theopportunity and, uh, it's, it's
great to chat SEO on contentalways.
I don't often network enough,it's nice to just, just talk,
talk, shop, usually on in-houseteams you are the main go-to or
you only have a weekly check-inhere and there.
So it's actually quiterefreshing to, to talk about our
work and, uh, our passion.
So thank you for having me on.
Phil (31:00):
nice to be able to use some acronyms and people know
what you're talking about,
Hassan ud-deen (31:04):
True.
Phil (31:04):
well, have a great day and you guys can listen to some
other interviews we have withother marketers.
go ahead and head over to thewebsite or or head over to any
of the podcast apps and you'llbe able to find us on the
opinionated s e o.
Thanks and have a great day.
welcome to the Opinionated SEO Today, I have Hassan with me
(00:04):
and we're gonna talk about allkinds of things like content
marketing, ai, of course, andanything else that comes up,
especially his journey as,someone who's been in somewhat
of a hybrid role in his.
Way he's worked SEO and thetechnical side of things.
And So we'll jump into that, butas I always like to start, let's
do a couple questions, uh, frommy pod decks then we'll jump
(00:27):
into the SEO things.
So welcome to the show.
Hassan ud-deen (00:30):
Thanks, Phil.
Nice to be here.
Phil (00:33):
If you could try out a job for a day just to see if you'd
like it, what would that job be?
Hassan ud-deen (00:38):
Ooh.
Th these are really interestingquestions.
Uh, They're good.
investment banker, hear so muchabout it.
I wanna know.
It's got, there's numbersinvolved.
Um, yeah.
Uh, or maybe data analyst.
That's the tie between them.
Phil (00:55):
And if you had to go like complete opposite, like no
computer involved, what, whatkind of job would you do?
Hassan ud-deen (01:01):
Ooh.
I think mechanic.
I think being a mechanic wouldbe an interesting, interesting
thing to do.
Phil (01:07):
work on like classic cars or something like that, solving
problems.
It's still the same as seo.
You're still solving problemstrying to figure out how to make
it run more efficiently.
Right.
Hassan ud-deen (01:16):
I guess it's more physically tangible and,
uh, the, the end result is, uh,palpable.
Right?
Like you, you can see what'shappening and.
There's a visible resultattached to it.
But, uh, yeah, you could, youcould apply the same problem
solving principles.
Phil (01:29):
Our garbage hasn't been picked up for like two days.
They're running late in usthinking.
is that one of those jobs that,you know, people joke about in
high school?
Oh, yeah.
You know, don't, don't become a,a trash guy.
You know, that's, that's whathappens if you don't go to
college and these guys aremaking six figures and, they,
they just need more people.
I'm thinking is that, is thatlike the dream job now?
Hassan ud-deen (01:48):
Yeah, it's, it's so true.
Cause that's like happened inthe uk.
Like we've, we've had the samejoke.
There's been week, there'sactually been week periods of
weeks on end where the garbagehasn't been collected.
And, uh, It's mainly due to thebinmen going on strike and
they're asking for more moneyand they're actually getting it.
And, uh, their, their hours aregood.
Like these guys are waking up atlike 6:00 AM and finishing by
(02:10):
two and, uh, they're, they'reearning pretty, pretty graduate
salaries, so
Phil (02:14):
Okay.
May maybe we're in the wrongbusiness, or That's, that's the
new side.
Hustle working on, on garbagetrucks and doing SEO on the
weekends.
I don't know,
Hassan ud-deen (02:25):
Reverse the rolls right.
Phil (02:26):
Exactly.
speaking of jobs, what's theoddest job you've ever taken to
earn a buck?
Hassan ud-deen (02:33):
Ooh, this takes me back.
Um, I thought I was suited tothis job.
Turns out I was a bit of amismatch.
and I lasted.
I didn't even last the wholeday, to be honest.
I talk about this sometimes.
I think I've mentioned on myblog or somewhere else.
Uh, I lied to my parents when Istarted this whole journey of
freelancing and, and, uh,getting into the game.
I actually did take this job, soit wasn't a complete lie, but I
(02:53):
pretended to keep doing it.
And the job was, um, you know,being one of harassing people
for, for charity, right?
So working in the town center, Ithink it was a company called
Oxfam, and, it was a pro coldapproaching people and asking
them if they want to sign up fora monthly subscription to
providing water rate.
So it wasn't really a bad cause,but it just, so, it just felt so
wrong to me as a person who.
(03:15):
You know, I've always been a bitintroverted, bit of a bookworm,
and here I am in, in the middleof, town just approaching people
and asking them if they wannagive money to charity.
So that was one of the hardestjobs that I've had.
And I quit like before the dayended.
Phil (03:29):
Wow.
So, uh, what was the motivationto go freelance then for you?
Hassan ud-deen (03:34):
Yeah.
I dunno if you've heard of thebook, uh, the Millionaire Fast
Lane by, I'm JTA Marco.
Yeah, that I, I kind of pickedthat up when I was 15.
So very young, veryimpressionable, and I was geared
a bit towards the idea of,entrepreneurship or just
business or, and marketing ingeneral.
I always liked marketing andcopy or the art of writing.
So, um, picked up this book.
(03:55):
the value of business, a lot ofmy friends, I was the only one
outta my friends who had thiskind of interest at, at, at that
point.
Now everyone seems to beinterested in entrepreneurship
or freelancing or a side hustle,but I'd say like 10 years ago it
wasn't as hyped up or, a, as a.
Consistent theme as it is now.
So, um, I was just interested ingaining skills and freelancing
seemed like one of those ways.
(04:16):
As someone who had no degree wasvery, very young, very little
work experience.
I thought, hey, I can cut myteeth into something and maybe
leverage those skills in thefuture, to do something else or
sell something.
And, uh, that's where itstarted.
Phil (04:29):
I think years ago they were called consultants and that
was the the term that peopleused when they got fired and
they were contracting forsomeone or they were out on
their own.
And that's evolved into sidehustles or entrepreneur.
Cause I think entrepreneur hadsomewhat of a negative
connotation and they're like,oh, you're gonna fail.
But in today's day and age no,it's, it's like, it's okay.
(04:53):
It's okay to be an entrepreneur.
Hassan ud-deen (04:54):
Yeah, it's almost glamorized.
Right?
And um, and I You saidconsultant, you're so right,
because I think about themtimes.
I think it was around when FrankKern was like the, the in guru
then, and he was pitching thewhole become a consultant thing.
So he reminds me.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's funny how the terminologyevolved.
Phil (05:11):
I think it takes a very certain type of person.
It's hard for that to be abusiness,
Hassan ud-deen (05:16):
Yeah, it's true.
Phil (05:17):
So then where did you pick up all of your SEO from when you
first started?
Hassan ud-deen (05:22):
Yeah, I had an interesting journey.
Like I often talk about, like, Iwear both hats of content
marketing person and also seo.
I'm the lead content marketingmanager and seo, uh, company.
For me, the gateway was atcontent writing itself.
So the freelance scale that Ifocused on, you know, when I
lied to my parents, quoteunquote lied to my parents, I
spent time going to the libraryevery day.
(05:43):
Um, John Morrow, I dunno if youyou're familiar with him.
I took his guest bloggingcourse.
it was just like an introductoryguide to.
Getting your first guest postsout.
and that was my first taste of,publishing online and getting
some proven samples out there.
And my intention wasn't even toget traffic, it was just to have
like samples of work.
And, by the time I completed thecourse, I took it to heart.
(06:05):
you know, one of the themes ofthe course was that if you want.
A great sample that gets youhired and showcases your skills,
just go bigger and better thaneveryone else.
And this was like when theskyscraper technique was a big
thing, you know, going reallyabove and beyond with content.
So like, I think I wrote like a10,000 word guide for my first
guest post.
And, um, it was a lot of effort.
a lot of fire under my belly atthe time as well, cuz I, I was
(06:27):
having difficulties living athome that actually helped me
secure my first clients, uh, incontent.
For content writing clients.
So I secured my first contentwriting clients from that.
And little by literally, Irealized from the analytics on
the my WordPress site that, hey,I'm getting traffic.
So I was just from, purely fromthe back links.
Like I knew, no, nothing abouttitle tags or on page seo.
(06:50):
I was literally, I literallyjust had, you know, Backlinks
coming to the site.
And I was getting like 1500,1600 visits a month.
And this was like when guestblogging was starting to die
out.
It was, it was an overusedtactic.
So even then I realized like thevalue of content for seo, for
traffic generation and organicleads, and that spiraled the,
(07:10):
that kickstarted like the restof the journey.
Phil (07:13):
when you think about it, with Google's updates with
helpful content update mostrecently.
The fact that they've gotten ridof a lot of their experience
metrics like page speed and suchjust goes to show you that that
original high quality content isstill like the most impactful
thing you could do to your site.
Hassan ud-deen (07:32):
Yeah, I agree.
And, uh, it's something like,it's almost comical in, in s e
i, in my opinion, because youget everyone hearing about the
latest update and SEO startlosing their hair and there's
101.
Tweets about the same microdetail of Google did this and
Google did that, and JohnMueller said this, and John
Mueller said that.
(07:52):
But ultimately, when you kind ofread behind the lines, uh, and,
and you dissect what's beingsaid, it's kind of the similar
theme.
Again, you're seeing a similartheme of we're refining content,
we're making sure that thepeople who, um, if you know in
Google's.
Own words from their actions aswell.
Like they're just making surethat content is of a high
caliber, high quality,trustworthy, and coming from an
(08:13):
authoritative, expert, right?
So that that's somethingconsistent that I, that I see
happening and that people aren'tgaming the system.
and, and I see you justconstantly return to that.
More and more we're seeing likea usability player role.
And then also the, the games isleveling up as well.
People are.
SEOs and content people arebecoming savvy.
they upskilling in differentways.
People are using originalresearch for back links.
(08:34):
You got, um, ferry Kazaki Searchfrom Search Intelligence is one
of my favorite examples.
But, you know, adding thatcreative element to SEO and
content marketing, you see thathappening as well.
And I think that's where some ofthe future is.
Phil (08:48):
So how did you get from like Good to Great?
From a content marketingstandpoint?
Hassan ud-deen (08:54):
Yeah, I think, I think great's always, um, I'm
always learning, so dunno if I'mgreat yet definitely would
aspire to be as best as I can,uh, in my role.
but it definitely had someproven results.
I think for me it was.
Learning the skills that youneed in the time that you need
them, um, based on the business'needs.
Right?
I wrote a blog, uh, blog post onmy own website, like thinking
(09:16):
about, and I didn't realize thisuntil I sat down to write like
it as a case study, whatsometimes it's not an obvious
insight that.
Is usually propagated in the SEOcircle.
So for example, attra, which wasthe previous company I worked
for, the business model played ainteresting role in how we, use
SEO and use content to.
rank and also spread ourmessage, right?
(09:37):
So it's a dual, dual prongedapproached, so the way to works
is that it's a, it has a networkof partners who resell the
software as part of theirimplementation, right?
So it's a learning managementsystem and there's over like 80
partners who sell our, oursoftware.
And one of the things that I wasactually.
Proud about what, once Ireflected on it was that we came
(09:59):
up with a little minisyndication network where we
gave all our partners contentand they would link back to our
content, on the, on the originalToro website.
However, it was a win-win foreveryone.
So our partners who had theirown clients and in their own
issues looked like expertsbecause they published content
about learning in the e-learningindustry.
And then they linked back tolike a pillar page or a few
(10:21):
other pages that we had thatwere attempting to rank for
certain keywords.
and that was born out ofadapting the strategy and being
a bit resourceful based on whatI had, what I could do, and, and
looking at the needs of thebusiness and any advantages
there.
So I think adaptivity is, is oneof those things.
There's no clear cut answers foreverything.
Phil (10:39):
Yeah.
I think the reliance or, Lookingat things like your partners and
different companies that you dowork with is probably one of the
most underutilized link buildingtactics.
even going back to if you're alocal plumber and you go to a
small shop for a lot of yoursupplies, there's definitely.
(11:02):
interlinking opportunities therethat can help.
And it's local and it'scontextual.
And if you really like the typesof materials they have and
you're a good customer, there'sdefinitely opportunities in
there.
And then, you know, scale thatto enterprise level and every
company has all these partnersthat they work with and there's
no reason why you can't leveragethat or create content, like you
(11:23):
said, that ends up beingsyndicated.
But you are the mothership.
Hassan ud-deen (11:27):
Yeah, exactly.
You put it beautifully.
and as you.
Breach the enterprise circles,like the, the orders of
magnitude increasing and the,it's like the butterfly effect,
right?
Like any changes inimplementations you make have a,
such a drastic effect and theROI just becomes greater.
So it's, it's, it's really coolto, to kind of use that
creativity.
Phil (11:45):
And now you've kind of touched on working with like the
partners, but when you're doingthe content marketing, what's
your type of approach for reallybeing able to connect to your
audience?
Hassan ud-deen (11:54):
Yeah.
It's always been a match betweenthe messaging of the
organization and what most ofour users, the messaging that me
users have seen, uh, in themarketplace.
Right?
So, for example, I, I'll go backto Tora and I can give an
example here, uh, hack the boxif you'd like.
But, um, One of the things thatwe, Tora introduced new
(12:19):
products, right?
And, and, and unified them undera suite.
But you could say they breachedinto the territory of category
creation.
Because you have employeeexperience software, you have
concepts like employeeexperience and talent
management.
And we concocted a.
A term we coined the concept oftalent experience and what that,
(12:40):
what that meant by ourdefinition was uniting, the key
factors that engage employeesand make people wanna learn,
make pe you know, increaseretention at a company.
And, the approach was a lot ofresearch, speaking to customers,
listening to our customerstories, and then picking out
like the little.
Consistencies and picking outthe little patterns and threads
(13:02):
that I saw customers say, orpains they expressed.
And usually you, the devil's inthe details here, and you find
consistent themes and patterns,and then you can integrate that
into your messaging.
you can build contrariannarratives on that.
Uh, and you then you have anopinionated or interesting thing
to say, right?
You're not just, um, anothervoice or another company with a
(13:22):
megaphone.
Saying, Hey, this is good, thisis bad.
You actually have a uniquestance or relevant stance to
your audience.
So that's something I, I stilllove to do.
I still love to do case studiesand, and speak to customers
because that's how you, I thinkyou keep your ear to the ground
as an SEO and as as a contentperson.
Phil (13:38):
Yeah.
And, and rely on that sales teamto tell you what's not working,
what those objections are out
Hassan ud-deen (13:43):
Yeah.
Yeah, totally.
Phil (13:45):
they'll go on and on about that.
But at the end of the day, thatmight also be something that
your product team and you canwork together on and help build
something that solves a problemthat nobody really realized was
out there.
Hassan ud-deen (13:59):
Yeah.
Um, and like speaking of likecontent strategy, like we, that
even inspired like a, acompetitor or alternatives type
content strategy.
So, you know, Tora versus, um, Ithink mood was one of our
biggest ones.
I think we still rank on pageone for Tora versus Moodle.
I haven't checked in a while,but Moodle was one of our
biggest competitors at the time.
(14:20):
So we did a post where we reallybroke down in depth, Versus
Tora, what's unique about us andwe're positioning ourselves as
the enterprise solution, whichwe, which we were at the time.
so that's another.
way in which content and SEO wasleveraged, was dual wielded, you
could say, to, to to fuellegion.
And I think that was one of ourhighest, when on a first
(14:40):
interaction base, uh, in GoogleAnalytics, um, that was
consistently referring MQs, uh,and, and, demo demo requests to
the tow choice sales team.
Phil (14:51):
this leads me into the most favorite thing that we
always get to talk about, whichis ai generative content.
And that's probably a perfectexample of something where the
AI tool would completely failat, I don't care.
how much data you feed it.
It just doesn't have thecontextual understanding or the
in-depth product knowledge ormaybe even the right information
(15:15):
to create something that's,that's actually convincing and
easy to use.
Hassan ud-deen (15:21):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Phil (15:22):
what are your thoughts then?
What's, what's the AI contenttools gonna be doing for people
besides cluttering up the web?
Hassan ud-deen (15:29):
Yeah, it's, it's, I see it going in a few
directions.
I see it being leveraged a lotfor micro content tasks like
editing, creating a certain toneof voice, um, quick research.
Getting a draft up really quick.
Uh, as you said, like the, um,the, the things that require
(15:53):
detailed analysis or.
Extensive product knowledge, uh,marketplace awareness, um,
ingenuity and creativity.
I don't think you're gonna youanytime soon anyway.
I don't think you're gonna beable to leverage AI for that.
And in terms of the widerlandscape of SEO and content
combined, I think one of themain things is gonna be, that's
(16:14):
gonna help marketers stand outis, uh, original research.
So it's something that we'reworking on at Hack the Box, like
we have two gated reports, uh,on the go.
We've we're surveying ouraudience to get insights on
specific topics, um, and.
That's something that AI can'tdo.
You can't survey, you know,10,000 people and then break
(16:35):
down their insights and do allthe data analysis for you.
You can assist probably in someof the micro steps, but on the
micro level, it's, it's notgonna be able to do that.
And then even before you takethose steps towards such
research, you need to know likewhat kind of, topics or themes
you're picking at.
So for example, one of the oneswe're potentially picking at is
like skills acquisition incybersecurity.
(16:55):
it's just something that, it'svery nuanced.
and so that's that.
And, uh, l m is not gonna beable to, you know, it's, it's a
task and l l m won't be able toperform just yet.
And, uh, yeah, I, I think as acontent marketer, I think it's
one of the, one of the bestthings to kind of invest in at
this point because, um, if you.
(17:16):
Look at off page SEO as well.
It's great photo for back links.
Uh, it's unique content from acontent marketing perspective,
and it's something that an AItool can't do.
So from a job securityperspective, if you've got that
skill, you're less likely to bereplaced, in my opinion.
Phil (17:31):
and you had mentioned this before, you know, creating a
term and, and that's somethingthat I pitch heavily.
You know, if you're first tomarket and this, there's no
search volume, that's okay.
But in three years I.
Is there gonna be a ton ofsearch volume?
Because now you are a regularphrase and I think Spark Toro
did that, with Rand Fishkin.
(17:53):
I mean, that was basically, theycreated a whole segment of
research that didn't reallyexist, and so they didn't do s e
O because.
they, they really had to do moremarketing than anything, let
people know that this existsbecause people weren't searching
for it.
And I think that's the otherarea that AI will never be able
(18:13):
to do because if there's noinformation on it, how are you
going to generate anything fromit?
So if it comes from your head,it comes from these internal
discussions and creative, uh,groups coming together and focus
groups and, and all of that.
This is all nothing that's outthere that AI can get its hands
on.
and yeah, maybe you can helpsummarize what you put together
(18:34):
or create bullet points out ofit, but at the end of the day,
it's not gonna be able to createit.
Hassan ud-deen (18:39):
Yeah.
Yeah, exactly.
Exactly.
And I, I think the gap willwiden between people who are
able to engineer and like createand.
Extract these unique insightsand, and unique messages from,
from their companies, from theirthought leaders, from their
subject matter experts versuspeople who are just rehashing
the cheap, low end kind of s e oe blog post that we see
(18:59):
everywhere.
Right?
So, and there's a fine linebetween doing both.
Like you can.
Do an s e blog post and insertyour messaging and, and have a
product led approach as well.
but again, like I, I thinkyou're gonna start seeing that
fine line, become a lot moreapparent, uh, in, in the coming
months and years, uh, with, withAI content.
Phil (19:19):
And then it comes down to the skillset of the individual
person.
And I know you kind of.
Talked about a bit of yourjourney, you know, starting out
more as that freelance role andfiguring things out and the
content side, and slowly addingthe seo.
Would you do it differently ifyou were to start over again
today?
Hassan ud-deen (19:36):
It's an interesting question.
I think one of the things Ireally enjoyed and only did in
the last year or so was justtake it on a couple of agency
gigs.
and I really enjoyed thatbecause a part of, I think I
have a, a part of me that's abit of a data geek.
I love looking at Google searchconsult, seeing a lot of
properties and then diggingaround and seeing, hey, okay,
(19:57):
did there was an update inSeptember or March and.
eight out of the 10 propertiesin this agencies, Google Search
Console, they're all showingsimilar trends and patterns of
what's going on here.
Right.
that's something I wish I didmore or because, In an agency
environment, you, you're justsubject to so much different
industries and, and the learningis just, it's brutal, but it's,
(20:18):
it's, it's amazing at the sametime.
So, I even have it on my cv, aresume and apply for jobs that
I'm a bit skills obsessed or I'ma fi to learn.
I'm a, I'm a learning addict.
Uh, so I, I just love digginginto data, having new insights
and going out and practicingsomething or just having an
excuse to go, to go.
Um, Try something out.
so I think an agency environmentis the, is is the perfect place
(20:39):
for that.
So I'm actually grateful that Ihad that experience, recently.
but that's something I probablywish I did more.
And, Yeah, I had some greatmentors along the way as well.
Uh, I worked with Tommy, TommyWalker.
and that was really early.
Um, that was like within acouple of years.
I had a, a brief, uh, stint withhim at Shopify Plus.
just like the, the caliber ofeditor that he is was, was
(21:00):
really uplifting, uh, taught mea lot about.
How to approach the page and,you know, the ethics of content
and creating standards for yourwriters and having, you know,
above going above just a defaultstyle guide and having, a unique
way of your, your brand's dna,right?
Your, your content d n.
So those kind of, I wassubjected to that early.
(21:20):
Uh, thanks to mentors like him.
Uh, still speak to him here andthere today, but, Yeah, I, I
think I wouldn't change too muchapart from having a, a bit more,
uh, exposure to diverseindustries to see different
patterns and trends.
Phil (21:33):
I think the agencies are underrated as far as an
educational opportunity or tojumpstart a career.
You really get.
Well, and it depends on whichagency, but you really get
experience in everything frome-commerce to local sites, to
enterprise, to small mom andpops.
depending on the agency, theymight take it all on.
(21:54):
You might be exposed tointernational SEO one day and
the next day, you're working onsomething completely different
and you get to see what works,what doesn't, and the collective
experience from the people thatwork there.
Hassan ud-deen (22:07):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And like if you, your onlyexperience is B2B SaaS and then
you gotta jump into e-commerceor you know, a casino, a brutal
YM y L industry, like, know,casino or something, one, you
might not be fit for it.
And if you've already had thatexperience, you can parlay that,
that experience into, yourcurrent role.
Right.
So it it, it's really helpfulto, to have that experience.
(22:29):
And, uh, I advocate if somebodywas starting now, I, I, I'd
advocate just even a, even ayear or so, or whatever time
they can put in an agency, in agood agency anyway, is time well
spent for learning.
Phil (22:40):
So what other ways would you have someone who's just
starting out, maybe they'reabout to graduate college or
they're skipping college andthey want to jump right into it.
Where would you tell them tostart and get those skills?
Hassan ud-deen (22:51):
Yeah, funny question.
I'm gonna put myself on blasthere, but, um, uh, I would, I,
I'd say go out and build yourown project.
So, um, have a niche There's awhole niche in SEO that you are
at, anyone most people arefamiliar with.
It's just like building nichewebsites, ranking them and
selling them.
Website flipping.
I'd go and follow them guysbecause they have a different
(23:11):
way of approach and thinkingBecause it's a full spectrum,
right?
They're doing content strategy,they're doing the hiring,
they're optimized, they have amonetization strategy.
I think that's really a reallycool project to start if you are
starting out, if you havecapital, buy one, if, if you
can, if not, build one fromscratch.
You both are good experiences,in my opinion.
I'd say to do both.
and that's where, that's, that'swhere I'd encourage users to
(23:33):
start.
It's funnily enough, I amactually gonna eat my own dog
food soon.
I've launched a website in thee-commerce space.
it's just a test website for SEOand marketing purposes, and to
kind of build out in public.
so that's something I'm excitedto kind of share, hoping to
document my journey on YouTube.
So, gonna, gonna take my ownadvice there.
Phil (23:49):
we'll put links here in the show notes to it so people
can follow you along.
Is it, is it live right now?
Can people
Hassan ud-deen (23:55):
It's not live at the moment.
I don't wanna share it cuz Idon't wanna skew the results.
But, uh, I do want to share likethe, the journey in terms of
analytics and the Google searchconsult data and, what
initiatives I'm doing.
I do have a YouTube channel, uh,that I'll be sharing the journey
on, and I'm my LinkedIn, so it'dbe, it'd be cool if you could,
plug that in and then people canfollow me along.
So hopefully launch that in thenext couple of weeks.
Phil (24:14):
we'll definitely do that.
My number one advice has alwaysbeen to someone who wants to get
into it is build a website.
Start there and you're gonnastart asking questions, and
that's the right way to do it isask a lot of questions, try
things out.
I've got a website that I usethat just has AI content and
it's got some stuff on therefrom three years ago and some
(24:36):
stuff from a couple weeks ago.
And it's very interesting to seehow Google reacts to different
types of content, copy, pasteversus edited.
Versus outsourced.
And.
it's just a playground is reallywhat it is.
And I highly suggest having, atthe very least, a playground,
but there's a reason why weoften don't see a whole lot of
(24:57):
very, very senior SEOs isbecause they've got their own
project, an affiliate marketingproject, or a coaching project
or something like that.
That's where they're makingtheir money because it's their
own money and they can grow itwith as much effort as they want
to put into it.
Hassan ud-deen (25:12):
Yeah.
Yeah, that, that's awesome.
And I totally agree.
and it also benefits, again,your skills and as you said,
like you'll always learn from,the reaction of your sandbox
side as well.
So it's, it's a win-win in myopinion.
Yeah.
Phil (25:25):
Is there, um, anything in kind of the current roles that
you're doing now that's kind ofexciting that you're working on?
Hassan ud-deen (25:31):
Yeah.
I'd say for me it's the, uh, thebiggest things are the gated
report.
the gated kind of research, theoriginal thought leadership that
we're working on, crafting thatmessaging, going after a more
B2B audience.
So for example, I hacked the boxwhere at we've historically been
A renowned provider ofcybersecurity training.
Uh, we've been known to makecyber security a fun and
(25:52):
engaging experience, a gamifiedplatform, is what a lot of
consumers know us for.
and that's bridged into it beinga platform now for, the B2B
world.
So, Enterprise teams taking on,I'm actually writing a case
study about this, but enenterprise teams taking on the,
hack the box platform to traintheir users in very technical,
hands-on skills.
(26:13):
so that's something I, I'm, I'mreally passionate about.
I, I find it very interestingand above all, uh, conducting
the original research behindthat and, uh, getting the
message out there to people and,and the wider cyber sector
community about how, Users arebehaving in terms of learning
skills, acquisition in adifferent industry, in, in
cybersecurity.
So yeah, that, that's somethingI'm really passionate, about
and, uh, looking forward toworking on in our current work.
(26:35):
And also, we're fleshing out ourcontent team.
so that's something I'm reallyexcited about.
We're launching a contributorprogram, hiring guest writers,
and also bring, we're gonna bebringing on a full-time, hire
soon for the content marketingrole.
so yeah, fleshing that out.
it's really exciting, very fastpaced and, a lot of moving
components, but, we're seeingdrastic roi.
Yeah, so like, I think why orwhy it's already been like 150%
(26:59):
increase on like blockage viewsand, non-brand clicks even,
which is something I'm reallyover the moon about as an seo.
So, um, seeing non-brand clicksimprove that much, it's quite
good to see.
Yeah.
Phil (27:10):
yes.
Cybersecurity is one of thosefields that I don't see slowing
down anytime soon.
Hassan ud-deen (27:18):
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's, it's evolving constantly.
And that's the, uh, the thrilland the Russia of the Cybersec
landscape.
And it's, it's one of thereasons why our product actually
is very popular amongst theaudience because, Being able to
digest, like the constant fluxof, of threats and, uh, new
threat groups and attack vectorsand all this kind of stuff.
(27:38):
Being able to digest that andcreate training for your people
is, is a really hard thing todo.
So, that's where our productcomes in and It creates a lot of
SEO opportunity and contentopportunity as well.
And it kind of forces us toexercise prioritization, as an
organization and as a contentand SEO function.
So, yeah, it's, there's no signsof it slowing down.
I, I think the, the need willjust, will constantly expand as
(27:58):
we are seeing.
Phil (27:59):
you've got your e-commerce side, you've got your things
like cybersecurity.
if you're new and you're lookingto get into a field, look at
areas that are growing, look atareas that need help getting
online, that need help beingfound that maybe were
traditionally brick and mortar,I mean, Blockbuster's gone.
Netflix took over.
Right?
(28:20):
It's, it's those kinds ofthings.
Where do you see certain placesthat are just not gonna exist in
a few years from now and they'reonline?
That that's a huge opportunitythere to help with that
transition.
Hassan ud-deen (28:32):
Yeah.
And also like leverage yourexperiences that you've had in
previous industries.
So before Hack the Box, I thinkone of the, I dunno if it was a
game changer or like a tip, thescales heavily, but one of the
things I, I had experienced inwas, as I had mentioned
previously, was the learningmanagement.
software, the B2B SaaS that Iworked for, a SaaS software
company that sold learningmanagement systems.
(28:52):
And, the, the topic revolvedaround learning and.
It kind of bridges nicely to, tothe next role, which was about
cyber security training and, andlearning as well.
So there's similar threads, andit shows that, maybe you have
some referenceable experiencesto, to parlay into your new
role.
So, uh, I'd encourage people tokind of use that as well and
(29:13):
communicate that on interviewsand, and within, roles, when
talking to a potential, hiringmanager or something, and, right
about what you're doing.
Uh, I think, I think having alittle LinkedIn portfolio is a
good thing.
even though it's always can bechallenging to keep up with on a
frequent basis.
I think that's one of the, thebest things to do.
Have like a, if you're gonna besuper simple, like have a Google
Doc, just write something thatyou're doing, write how it went,
(29:36):
and just build that in publicand share.
And I think that can go a longway as a simple stress-free
strategy.
Phil (29:41):
Yeah, I think that's great advice.
if people don't know that you'vedone it, they're not gonna know
that you did it.
And how else?
If they're looking for someonewho has some experience and
expertise and they've beenfollowing you, you'd be
surprised how quickly peoplewill reach out saying, you know,
we'd love for you to consult forus, or, we have this role and
you've been working on this samekind of problem we're trying to
(30:03):
solve.
Do you have some time to talk tosomeone here?
Hassan ud-deen (30:08):
Yeah, totally.
Totally.
Phil (30:09):
Yeah.
Great networking opportunities.
Definitely.
Hassan ud-deen (30:12):
A hundred percent.
Yeah.
Phil (30:14):
Well, I appreciate your time today.
we don't hear too manyperspectives where you start out
more in the freelance role,build up that skillset, and then
go agency or out, then goin-house.
it's a really interestingjourney and, I hope your parents
are okay with, that you, youdidn't tell'em that's what
you're doing, or I don't know ifyou've told them yet.
Maybe they'll find out here whenwe publish.
Hassan ud-deen (30:34):
Yeah, I think that it's going live here.
Sorry, mom and dad, if youlisten,
Phil (30:38):
Again, appreciate your time.
Hassan ud-deen (30:40):
cheers, Phil.
Just, um, thank you for, for theopportunity and, uh, it's, it's
great to chat SEO on contentalways.
I don't often network enough,it's nice to just, just talk,
talk, shop, usually on in-houseteams you are the main go-to or
you only have a weekly check-inhere and there.
So it's actually quiterefreshing to, to talk about our
work and, uh, our passion.
So thank you for having me on.
Phil (31:00):
nice to be able to use some acronyms and people know
what you're talking about,
Hassan ud-deen (31:04):
True.
Phil (31:04):
well, have a great day and you guys can listen to some
other interviews we have withother marketers.
go ahead and head over to thewebsite or or head over to any
of the podcast apps and you'llbe able to find us on the
opinionated s e o.
Thanks and have a great day.
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