Party in the Back: Your Superhero Cape Belongs to Someone Else

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The difference between helping and hurting often comes down to one critical question: are we empowering and dignifying people or creating dependencies and disabilities? In this eye-opening conversation with Sheree Reece, Global Missions Director for a UMC Mega Church - Church of the Resurrection, Laura and Yaz unpack the profound shift happening in mission work worldwide—moving from traditional charity models that often foster dependence to sustainable approaches that build genuine capacity and dignity.

Drawing from her 14 years of experience coordinating global missions across Africa, Asia, and Haiti, Sheree reveals why simply showing up with resources and doing things for communities ultimately creates more harm than good. She shares powerful examples of transformation, including how one Haitian community went from passively waiting for outside help after the 2010 earthquake to confidently leading their own recovery efforts when Hurricane Matthew struck in 2016.

What makes this episode particularly valuable is the practical wisdom Sheree offers. She explains how organizations can make this difficult transition, emphasizing the patience required with both donors and partners. The importance of building trust before sending resources, identifying true community leaders rather than just the loudest voices, and creating "50-50 covenants" where both parties contribute their unique assets all feature prominently in her approach.

Most compelling is Sheree's reminder that Jesus himself modeled empowerment—not by dictating solutions but by engaging people in their own transformation, preserving their dignity, and recognizing their God-given abilities. Whether you're involved in mission work, charitable giving, or simply want to make a more meanin

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Travel on International Mission, meet local leadership and work alongside them. Exchange knowledge, learn from one another and be open to personal transformation. Step into a 25 year long story of change for children in some of the poorest regions on Earth.

https://www.helpingchildrenworldwide.org/mission-trips.html

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A bible study for groups and individuals, One Twenty-Seven: The Widow and the Orphan by Dr Andrea Siegel explores the themes of the first chapter of James, and in particular, 1:27. In James, we learn of our duty to the vulnerable in the historical context of the author. Order here or digital download

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Family Empowerment Advocates support the work of family empowerment experts at the Child Reintegration Centre, Sierra Leone.  Your small monthly donation,  prayers, attention & caring is essential. You  advocate for their work to help families bring themselves out of poverty, changing the course of children's lives and lifting up communities. join

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Organize a Rooted in Reality mission experience for your service club, church group, worship team, young adult or adult study. No travel required. Step into the shoes of people in extreme poverty in Sierra Leone, West Africa, Helping Children Worldwide takes you into a world where families are facing impossible choices every day.

Contact [e-mail] to discuss how.

Shout out to our newest sponsor: The Resilience Institute

Support the show

Helpingchildrenworldwide.org

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:10):
Welcome to the Optimistic Voices podcast.
I'm your host, Yasmin Vaughn,and I'm Laura Horvath.
In today's episode, we're goingto be talking with Cherie Reese
, who is the Global MissionsDirector for Church for the
Resurrection, located in Leawood, Kansas.
In her role at Church of theResurrection, Cherie oversees
the church's missions in Africa,Asia and Haiti.

Speaker 2 (00:32):
Cherie's also a good friend of ours, so we're
delighted to have her on theshow, and in this episode we're
going to be exploring a powerfulshift in the way mission work
is being approached, moving fromcharity-based rescue or relief
models to ones that are rootedin empowerment.
But what does it mean to trulyempower others through mission,
and how do we move beyondshort-term relief to long-term

(00:55):
sustainable change?
And why is it so important tooffer a hand up and not a hand
out?
Whether you're a mission tripveteran, a church leader or
someone rethinking how to makeyour giving more impactful, this
conversation is going tochallenge you to see mission not
as something we do for others,but something we do with others,
in partnership, with mutualrespect.

(01:16):
When we were brainstormingorganizations, we thought were
doing this well.
Cherie and Resurrectionimmediately came to mind.
Cherie, welcome to the show,thanks.
It's so good to be here withyou guys.
It's great to have you.
Why don't you tell us a littlebit about yourself, your role
and the work that you do atResurrection?

Speaker 3 (01:36):
So I have been working in our missions
department for about 14 yearsglobally, and I currently work
with our partners on the mostlyin the Eastern Hemisphere plus
Haiti, and we really focus onsustainable development as well
as just empowering local leaders.
With that said, there are timesfor relief, so we know when

(01:58):
there's a hurricane or a war,things like that, we do engage
in that type of thing.
I'm married with three adultchildren and a dog that I
absolutely love.
He's so much easier than thekids were, so that's always
really nice.
But nothing gets me moreexcited besides my family and

(02:20):
God, of course than talkingabout ways to empower people and
just finding ways to help themrealize their gifts if they
don't always realize theincredible gifts that God has
given them so that they can usethem and make a difference in
their own lives, their familyand their community, so that
totally geeks me out andtherefore I absolutely love what

(02:42):
I get to do every day.

Speaker 2 (02:45):
That's awesome.
That's great when you getexcited going to work, yes, most
days, most days, yeah,nothing's perfect, all right.
So getting right down to it, inwhat specific situations or
emergencies do you believe thatrelief models are necessary and
appropriate?

Speaker 3 (03:06):
So, when a community is hit by either a natural or a
man-made disaster and they can'trespond solely on their own.
So if the community has theassets and resources to respond
on their own maybe it's a smalldisaster we should let them do
that.
They should be empowered to dothat.
If they can't because it is solarge, that's when other people

(03:29):
or organizations should come inalongside them to help them to
respond in that disaster.

Speaker 1 (03:35):
And I think maybe it would be good if we also had a
definition of what relief is.

Speaker 2 (03:41):
Yeah, maybe define like what's a relief model and
then what's a not relief modelresources that you're just

(04:07):
giving them.

Speaker 3 (04:07):
They have no part in adding to those resources.
It's just you that's givingthem away and doing for them,
whereas non-relief models ordevelopment models is when
you're doing things together.
Most importantly, if you'redoing those things together, the
people in that community arethe ones that are leading.
It's like they're in charge.
They're the ones who says thisis what we're going to do, this
is how we're going to do it.
We just get to come alongsidethem.

(04:29):
If it's our community, thenhopefully we are the ones who
are leading.
Whatever that is, and ifsomeone else is coming from the
outside and combining effortswith us, they're doing it with
us as well, if that makes sense.

Speaker 2 (04:42):
Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense.
I'm struck by you've emphasizedin that answer the importance
of the people who have sort ofsuffered the crisis or in the
crisis, actually leading theresponse, and I just want you to
expand on that a little bit andtalk about why is that so
important.

(05:02):
Why, if you know, if I come inwith my rescue crew or whatever
in the middle of this I don'tknow tsunami, why would it be
important for the people on theground who's just suffered it to
lead?

Speaker 3 (05:17):
Anytime you give people the opportunity to make
decisions for their future, itgives them a sense of power.
If they've just gone through atsunami and their life has
completely been turned over,they've lost a lot of things
that are important to them,whether it be something as large
as a house or something assmall as a picture.

(05:37):
They can never get back, whichactually is probably a bigger
loss.
You know, they lose a sense ofpower and they have a sense of
helplessness.
As soon as you can give thatpower back or allow people to
find their own power that givesthem purpose, that gives them
hope, that gives them somethingto drive towards, if we come in

(05:59):
and say, hey, we're going totake care of you, we're going to
do everything for you and thisis what you need, First of all,
we're going to contribute increating even a bigger disaster,
because we'll probably bringthe wrong things, because we
don't actually always know whatthey need.
So that's problematic.
And then, when you add to that,their sense of helplessness
continues, it's hard for them tohave that feeling of hope and

(06:24):
change that they can do it andgetting some of that semblance
it just goes to, I think, powerand powerlessness.
You know they need to have thepower to move forward.

Speaker 2 (06:38):
There's a whole lot of dignity sort of baked into
that, and preserving people'sdignity and it seems to me, at a
crisis point when you feel likeyou've lost everything or maybe
you have lost everything oralmost everything still being
treated with dignity and beingtreated as a person with agency
is a really critically importantthing in that moment.

(07:00):
So I think you've hinted alittle bit about this, but, from
your perspective, what are theinherent limitations of relief
models?
Because we're not saying arelief model is a bad thing, it
just it has a specific purpose.
So you know what are thelimitations or what are the
things that relief models can'tsolve.

Speaker 3 (07:18):
So long term sustainable development is
impossible.
If you're operating in a reliefmode, if someone other than you
or community members areproviding more than 50% of the
response, then dependency iscreated, and if it lasts longer
than what it takes to recover.
So obviously, let's say, atsunami hits in your example and

(07:42):
other agencies need to come inwith resources, whether it be
food, water, hygiene items,whatever it might be.
If that continues, then youwill you get used to just being
given things.
I mean, who wants to work forsomething when it's going to be
given to you?
Who wants to go and work 40 or50 hours a week to earn I don't

(08:03):
know $500,000 a year or what?
We'll just say a bunch of money?
Or who would rather just say,hey, I won the lotto and won
$500,000.
But I mean, even in thatexample, you look at that,
people who win the lotteryusually spend that money and
lose it within a year or twobecause they didn't work for it.
There's something to be saidwhen something is given to you

(08:26):
versus you worked for it, youvalue it differently, and so
relief models don't allow youand it kind of goes back to your
dignity piece.
It doesn't allow you to valuewhat you've received, you don't
treat it with the same dignity,with the same care as you would
had you worked for it.

Speaker 2 (08:45):
Well, and it must create a sense of dependency in
that people lose sight of thefact that they could do it for
themselves and lose the kind ofsense of their own capacity and
competence.

Speaker 3 (08:58):
And that takes place over years.
So, like I wouldn't necessarilyI don't think I would
necessarily see that within afew weeks or a few months, or
even a year perhaps, of you, youknow, giving a relief, but if
you continue that over 5, 10, 15years, you lose sight of.
Yes, you can do it and you usedto be in charge and you used to

(09:19):
make a difference in your lifeor in your community.
Your life or in your communitybecause all of a sudden you
start questioning yourcapabilities, because someone's
doing it for you.
And one of the examples thatI've liked to given and it's a
silly, silly example but likewhen a child wants to tie their
shoe, they're like I'll do it, Ido it.
If you keep doing it for them,you're going to tie their shoe
until they're like high school,because that's just kind of what

(09:41):
they're used to and they don'teven think they can do it
anymore.
But high school, because that'sjust kind of what they're used
to and they don't even thinkthey can do it anymore.
But as soon as you help them,do it like they're so proud of
themselves.
I tied my own shoes, okay, thisis just a tiny, tiny little
silly example with what thisdoes with like people's entire
lives.
I mean, I think part of povertyis alcoholism depression

(10:03):
because they don't realize theyhave these incredible gifts and
skills.
They don't even realize theyhave because someone's been
doing something for them foryears.
They've lost sight of what theinherent capabilities, god-given
capabilities that they have,and so they're depressed.

Speaker 2 (10:22):
Yeah, yeah, I think we saw this really play out as
we did our orphanage transitionalmost 10 years ago and we
started talking with families.
The CRC started talking withfamilies about bringing their
children home and the immediatereaction was well, but you'll
take care of my child betterthan I could.
And so there had to be a wholelot of almost reeducation of

(10:45):
parents that this is your childand, yes, you have the capacity
to take care of them.
In fact, you've got greatercapacity than the orphanage does
and so getting people to fliptheir whole mindset because of
the years of dependency thatthat orphanage relief model had
built in.
Can you share some examples ofother intended problems or

(11:08):
dependencies you've seen inrelief models in communities
that were certainlyunintentionally created but have
popped up as a result?

Speaker 3 (11:18):
Sure.
So a great example that I'vejust seen played out over the
years is actually coming fromout of Haiti.
We work with a community oflocal leaders and Pettigrew,
which is about two hours west ofPort-au-Prince, and what we
were told after we've beenpartnering with them with many

(11:40):
years we've been, you know,doing development initiatives
and things like that buildingcapacity in the leaders is in
2020, when the earthquake hit,they were like, oh my gosh, what
are we going to do?
What's going to happen?
And they waited for outsideorganizations to come in and
help, whatever that help mightlook like.

(12:00):
They waited for help Fastforward to 2016 when Hurricane
Matthew hit.
Like they heard the hurricanewas coming, they were going to
the neighbors.
They were saying, hey, let'sprepare, let's, you know, do
this, this and this.
As soon as it hit, they wereout there checking on people.
They were securing belongings,they were helping people who

(12:21):
were injured and they said youknow what?
It was completely very twodifferent responses.
They didn't wait for anyone in2016.
Yeah, people came alongside tohelp at some point, but they
were well on their way torecovering.
So lives are saved, basically,when they don't wait for someone
to come do something to them.

(12:42):
They're already recovering longbefore organizations come in to
help, because that mindsetchange has taken place.
They realize they'reresponsible for the community,
they can make a difference, theyneed to own it, and it was just
the fact that they didn't waitfor anyone.
I'm like, oh my gosh, yay, thisis awesome.

Speaker 1 (13:03):
I'm like, oh my gosh, yay this is awesome, and I
think that really gets back tothe point you made earlier.
We're talking about right nowis like shock, and we're talking
about it on a macro level of,you know, a hurricane, a natural
disaster, a pandemic, anoutbreak, something big, and
these shocks can also happen onlike a micro level.
You know a family member passesaway or you lose your job or

(13:28):
things like that, but whatyou're you're the point that you
make is the distinction betweena time for relief and a time
for, maybe, rehab or developmentis can I withstand this shock?
You know a tree looks at astorm and says you know I have
the roots required to withstandthis, and so being able to say

(13:49):
for yourself you know we canhandle this situation, or we can
handle it up to this point andnow we need outside help.

Speaker 3 (13:57):
Exactly.

Speaker 1 (13:59):
Talking about what it means to build resilience,
building these communities ofcapacity, of recognizing ability
, of not having powerlessness.
I think there's a lot oforganizations that are
interested in this and thatthink that it's important, and

(14:22):
they have very good intentionswith the work that they're doing
.
They want people to besustainable, they want people to
do well, but a lot of themreally struggle with this
concept, with this idea of howto do it well.
So, from your experience, whatare the components, what are the
ingredients that you say youknow?

(14:42):
To go back to your Haitiexample, what are the things
that existed in that mindsetthat created this idea that they
could handle it on their own?

Speaker 3 (14:53):
So that is hard.
That's like the million dollarquestion, especially because, in
an attempt to do good, thechurch as a whole, people from
around the world who want tohelp others you know we've
talked about this, we've donemore harm than good in an effort
to help and we were very muchstuck in the relief model are

(15:15):
like that wave is turning andpeople are starting to
understand, hey, the reliefmodel necessarily isn't the best
approach to help vulnerablepeople in communities.
But now you need to talk to theleaders in those vulnerable
communities who you've beengiving all these resources to

(15:36):
and just handing them to, andsay, hey, we want you to work
for it Now we want you to dosomething.
I mean, it's kind of like Whoa,like why are you turning the
tables on us?
Like what the heck?
You know you've done all this.
What did we do wrong?
Yes, yes.
So if you're starting in a newpartnership, it's much easier.
It's so much easier to start.

(15:57):
You know, on a blank page, andyou know, first of all, you want
to make sure you're partneringwith the local leaders in that
country, preferably thatcommunity.
So, for instance, you mightpartner with a nonprofit that is
from that country, which isgreat.
But you also want to partner,like if that nonprofits in the
city and you're working in arural community.

(16:19):
Those local leaders in thatrural community need to want to
partner as well and want to owntheir development.
So there's kind of differentlevels of partnering that you
need to make sure you do andthen you need to listen.
Like people think we're crazy.
In fact, several of ourpartners have said, oh my gosh,
that was the longest interviewI've ever had when he talked

(16:40):
about, you know, becomingpartners, because it literally
he's like this took four years.
I only recall two or threeyears, but he says four years.
And that's because we spenttime listening, just getting to
know each other.
What are your goals, what areyour vision?
Like what, what would you wantto accomplish if we were to
partner together?
Like, what would you want to dowith that?
Like how, why, why do you wantto partner with us?

(17:02):
What does that look like?
You know, trying to understand.
Do they have a vision for theircommunity?
Do they have goals?
And then you build arelationship.
If you do not build thatrelationship of trust, they're
going to say yes to whatever yousuggest.
First of all, you don't want tosuggest anything the first
couple of years, because youjust want to listen and support

(17:23):
their ideas, and so you have tocultivate that trust.
My favorite part is when we getto a position with a relatively
new partner where they're like,no, this is not going to work
for us.
It's like, oh, this is fabulous.
They trust our relationshipenough to say, hey, this is a
bad idea.

(17:44):
And then learning about eachother's assets.
So you spend those years asyou're listening, you're
building that relationship.
What are their assets?
What are our assets?
You know we may be good at somethings, but we're definitely
good at not good at a lot ofthings.
So what are they good at?
What can they contribute to thepartnership?
Only then, once you've done allthis work, only then should you

(18:07):
send resources.
In the US model, or lots oforganizations in the US, our
initial response is let's sendmoney, let's help, let's get
resources into their hands assoon as possible because they
need them.
But then you've gone to thehandout mentality and you
haven't built that trust.
You don't even know what theirgoals are, what their vision is

(18:29):
for their community, and so onceyou go down that path, it is
really, really hard to go back.
And so if you are already onthat path with a partner, that's
when you need to sit down andstart having heart to heart
conversations and saying, saying, hey, you know, we've been
sending I don't know, we'll justsay five thousand dollars a
year to help you field feedchildren, which is great and

(18:53):
phenomenal, and the childrenneed to be fed, but nothing has
changed for those families.
Like we've gone through yearsand years and years of these
families needing their childrenfed.
What would it look like if thefamilies could feed their own
children?
Just the dignity, the powerthat that gives them.
What could we do that mightgive them that capacity so that

(19:16):
they can own their own destinyand they're not waiting for us
to come Because at some pointsomething may happen to us.
What if we can no longer sendthat funding?
And how wrong is that?
We feel good about ourselves.
Hey, we fed these kids.
Look at us.
That's awesome.
But yet these families can'tfeed their own kids.

(19:37):
And think about what that wouldfeel like if you couldn't feed
your own kid.

Speaker 1 (19:41):
Absolutely yeah, so it sounds like a lot of what
you're talking about um iscreating good power dynamics
through listening and buildingrelationships.
Well, um, before building thattrust, before you jump in to do
things, um, are there otheraspects of of creating these

(20:02):
power dynamics that you thinkare important that other
organizations should consider?

Speaker 3 (20:08):
So we actually have a 50-50 covenant that we modeled
after it was something that itwas Global Ministries that had
created something similar and itreally talks about the
biblicalness of 50-50 andworking together and the you
know, sharing together eachother's assets and resources.

(20:30):
And when I say 50-50, it mightnot be like they're paying 50%
of this project and we're paying50%, but it's 50% of effort
towards something.
So it could be, you know,they're in charge of the project
, they've set the vision and thegoals and they're doing a lot
of the work and we're offeringthe 50% of the resources, or

(20:53):
maybe we're doing some of ittogether.
I don't know what that lookslike, but a lot of that takes
place through again goes back tolistening and asking questions
like that's.
That's probably what I spendmost of my time doing with our
partners is asking themquestions, not an aggressive way
like why aren't you doing thisor why wouldn't you do this, but
just say, well, when you dothat, you know what happens when

(21:16):
you like, what, what happensafter you do that project, or or
who are you planning to help,or how long is that going to
last, or what is your end goal.
And part of that is just toallow them to think through and
process what their plans are.
Part of that is, I'mresponsible for the funds that

(21:36):
are leaving our church and goingto the hands of other people,
so I need to make sure hey, isthere, is there a good chance of
this being successful?
Because we all know, anytimeyou're doing anything innovative
or new, there are some failurerates.
There should be, or we're notdoing something as big as we
should be trying to do, ordifferent or innovative.

(21:57):
So just trying to understandwhat that looks like on behalf
of our church, as well as makingsure you know are they leading
it?
Are they building capacity inthe local people?
Do they have an exit strategy?
And then we follow their lead.

Speaker 1 (22:15):
Yeah, yeah, that active listening, knowing how to
ask questions well so thatthey're not accusatory but are
truly building that relationshipand building that trust.
Would you say that there arespecific metrics you talked a
little bit about.

(22:35):
You know, our partner said noto me and that meant that I knew
that we had a good relationshipbecause they felt like they
could say that.
Are there other metrics of thatclose relationship that you
look for?

Speaker 3 (22:53):
So some of the other metrics that we look for are if
we send people to do somethingin a country, do they end up
doing it with the localcommunity?
There have been several timesin the past when I was
relatively new in the positionand we had partnerships that

(23:13):
were formed before we learnedsome of the lessons that we've
learned over the position and wehad partnerships that were
formed before we learned some ofthe lessons that we've learned
over the years, that we've hadto end because we didn't spend
years building the relationshipand the trust and they were very
much in the relief mode and ourpartner couldn't make that
crossover or bridge to theempowerment or doing together.

(23:37):
And there were manyconversations that took place.
They would say, hey, yes, we'regoing to do, we're going to
lead this part and we're goingto do this part, and we're going
to do this part.
And we're like, fabulous, we'lldo this part, this part and
this part.
We send the team expecting itto be this great time of serving
together and working togetherand doing this project together,

(23:59):
only to find out when they comeback they're like, yeah, we
showed up, they led the first 15minutes and then they looked at
us and said, okay, you're on,and we pretty much led the rest.
And I'm like, oh my gosh, allthose phone calls, like we had a
plan, we were doing thistogether, what happened?
And so you know, if that happensmultiple times after multiple

(24:19):
conversations, like I'm likethey can't bridge the gap and we
have to make a decision.
Are we going to continue downthe same path we've been going,
which I think continues to domore harm, or are we going to
cut ties?
And no one likes to cut tiesbecause there are relationships,

(24:40):
people have gotten involved andthat takes at least a solid
year or two to make thatdecision.
Like, no matter what we do, wedo it slowly.
I know some organizations havesaid, hey, if you can't move to
this empowerment matter, we'reout of here.
Know some organizations havesaid, hey, if you can't move to
this empowerment matter, we'reout of here.
Well, one of the things I loveabout being Methodist Methodist
is our first thing is do no harm.

(25:01):
So you pull out too quickly,you're going to do more harm,
even though the relief model youno longer want to do.
So you know you need to be verycareful on how you do that.
If you decide we need to endthis partnership because we
can't move from relief anddependency and we can't move
away from that.

Speaker 2 (25:22):
Well, and I think that relationship piece is so
key.
We're one of thoseorganizations that got off, got
started off in a relief mode andhave had to do this pivot with
our partners.
We've now been allied with themfor 25 years, so it's been an
ongoing relationship, trustbuilt.
That relationship piece is Idon't think it's possible

(25:45):
without it, but it's been likeit's not a one and done
conversation.
I appreciate your outlining howlong it takes, because it's
every conversation that we have,including conversations we're
currently having, where aquestion will come up and
they'll say, well, you know whatshould we do?
And we say I don't know, whatdo you think we should do?

(26:06):
This is your program, you know,and it's that sort of steady
drumbeat that's saying to themno, you really get to decide.
You really do get to say no ifyou want to go in a different
direction.
You really do get to tell theAmericans that you have a better
idea, like you really do get tolead.
And I think it's it's thelayering of those many, many,

(26:30):
many, many small conversationsthat start to deepen that trust
and truly empower people.
I think they start tointernally feel like I do have a
voice and the power to makethis decision.
I think it's really important.

Speaker 3 (26:45):
Yes, and I think, as cause, some people are like well
then, you know what are youjust going to do, whatever Cause
?
I've seen other people go allthe way to the other side and
are just like yeah, whatever youall say, we're going to, we're
going to support and we're goingto do again.
We have a responsibility to ourdonors to make sure the funds
are used correctly.
So our capacity and our abilityis to say you know what?

(27:09):
I think that's fabulous, youwant to do that.
Unfortunately, we can't support.
Like we can't fund that projectbecause it's not something that
we think makes sense.
Like they want to pull, put apool in their backyard and,
granted, that's just a randomthing.
Like we're going to say, no,we're not going to fund your
pool, so but if they want to gofind funding from someone else

(27:29):
who wants to fund their pool,that's fabulous, have at it, go
for it.
Like we're not going to tellthem what to do and what they
can and can't do.
But we have a responsibility onbehalf of those who give us
money to say yes or no.
Right, we think makes sense.

Speaker 1 (27:47):
Yeah.
So there's a certain aspect ofthere is a lane for you to stay
in and our lane is we do have aresponsibility to our donors to
make sure that we're doing workthat aligns with what we said we
wanted to do and what we are,what our values are.
And I think, in my thought, Ithink it's hard for Americans to

(28:07):
stay in that lane.
Going back to the example yougave of like a mission team
going on the ground and thepartners say you know, all right
, you take over.
And they did.
They just took over, because weas Americans have a hard time,
not just, you know, Nike, justdo it.
You know we like to jump in andjust do things.
So, as an organization, howhave you all learned to hold

(28:30):
space and say we're not going tojust jump in?

Speaker 3 (28:41):
and say we're not going to just jump in.
I think it's easier for staffto not jump in and or to do it
from sitting here in Kansas Cityon a Zoom call versus being in
country with a group of peopleand a volunteer led.
Like you know, one of thethings that we tell them is our
host is in charge.
So if they ask you, you know,hey, I want you to.

(29:01):
You know, go scrub toilets.
And you came to teachempowerment workshops.
Well, we're going to go scrubtoilets because that's what our
host has asked us to do.
So you know, we've worked hardto train our volunteers to
listen to them.
So when they turn to us andthey say, hey, go ahead and lead
it from there, they're like, ohokay.

(29:22):
So I think that's the hardthing and that's where we just
have to go back with our hostsand say, hey, they're going to
follow your lead because that'swhat we've told them to do.
But we really need you to leadthis.
We're along for the ride andwe're so excited we get to join
you in this work, but we can'tbe in charge of what you're

(29:43):
doing in your community.

Speaker 1 (29:48):
Wow, yeah, that's a great example.
We were members of Standards ofExcellence and Short-Term
Missions and getting thatfeedback from partners and going
back to them and saying listen,you know, this is how we've
taught teams to engage.
If they're not doing whatthey're supposed to do, get them
in line and tell us so we'llget them in line.

(30:09):
But also, you have a role toplay as well, for sure, that's
exactly right.

Speaker 3 (30:15):
We're members of that as well, which is fabulous,
fabulous, and I would give ashout out anyone I think it's
Mission Excellence now anyonewho is working towards Serve
Trips.
It's just a great foundationand they are actually the ones
that helped us redo our entireprogramming and training and the
ways that we engage about 10years ago, so they were huge for

(30:38):
us.

Speaker 1 (30:41):
Yeah, love, mission excellence, that's great.
So we were talking a little bitabout not providing resources,
not jumping in and doing thingsfirst, but would you say that
there are other investments,maybe not financial or resource,
but training, trust, you knowother things that have to be

(31:04):
invested to build an empoweringorganization.

Speaker 3 (31:10):
Yeah, I think part of it is just being like I call it
patience capital because wewant, we want things to happen
right away, and so part of thatis helping donors understand the
empowerment model versus therelief model, because it is so

(31:30):
much easier to fundraise.
If you're saying, hey, we'regoing to go ahead and and we're
going to feed 1000 childrentoday, then say, hey, we're
going to train 20 people so thatthey can train 20 more people
and, you know, feed theirfamilies, and then they're going
to train 20 more people thatthis is going to take three

(31:52):
years and at some point they'regoing to have food for us and
they're going to be able to eatlike as much as they want, as
often as they want, asnutritiously as they want.
That's just a harder sell forfor donors to jump and get
excited about, and so I know oneof the things that we had to do
was we had to spend time withour donor base and helping them

(32:15):
understand hey, this is wherewe're headed.
It's going to take us a had tospend time with our donor base
and helping them understand hey,this is where we're headed.
It's going to take us a whileto get there.
You know, can you be patientWith.
That said, we've also had to bepatient with our partners
because, first of all, they'reon a different time schedule
than we are.
You know us those of us fromthe US are like let's get this
done, let's move on.

(32:36):
We're very task oriented,they're relational, so something
that we may be like, okay,we're going to check this off
and we're going to get this done.
They're going to get it done atsome point.
But you know what, if someoneneeds to talk to them or if
someone lost a family member orwhatever that might be like,
everything stops for them to dothat.
So we need to practice patienceand realize they're always

(32:59):
actually better because they'reinvesting in the people, they
care about their people whilewe're focused on the task.
And I think the other investmentagain, then, is we need to work
on investing in people.
So we need to encourage, weneed to lift up, we need to say
hey, it's okay if you mess up.
It's okay If you thought thisproject was going to be

(33:21):
successful, but it's not like weget it.
We're not going to, we're notgoing to hit a home run.
100% of the time you're goingto hit, we're going to get,
we're going to strike out some,and that's okay.
We're not going to leavebecause of that.
A lot of that is patience forus individually, it's patience
for our donors and it's justgiving everyone time to move

(33:43):
through this process, becauseit's mindset change and you
can't change minds overnight.

Speaker 2 (33:49):
Anyone's donors, community leaders, anyone's- Yaz
likes to tell our short-termmission teams you know our teams
go over for a couple weeks at atime and she likes to point out
to them that they're not goingon a two-week mission trip, that
they're not engaged in atwo-week mission trip, they're a
moment in a 25-year mission, sothat you know, sort of gives

(34:14):
them the sense of this is anongoing, it doesn't stop, it
just is, you know, you're a partof it and you're an important
part of it.
But it's this relationshipthat's like, honestly, longer
than some marriages, and so youknow, understanding that, have
some humility about that, and Ido think there is a.

(34:35):
There's a thing about reliefmodels that makes you feel like
you've got the superhero cape onit, makes you feel so good
about yourself, You've rushedinto some horrible situation and
you're delivering aid and youfeel amazing and and.
But the cape is on you and Ithink in empowerment models like
this, it's you deliberatelyfinding ways to put the cape on

(34:58):
someone else and then melt intothe background in some way, in
some supportive, like you know,behind the scenes kind of way,
which feels to me much morebiblical in the way that Jesus
actually engaged people that hewas serving during his time on

(35:18):
earth.
But it's a real shift, I think,in how people think about
themselves and how they're goingto engage in these short-term
mission programs or in theseprograms.
So can you talk a little bitabout how it will feel
differently to people used tothat old model.

(35:38):
How will they perceive that inthemselves?
How will they, on the ground,understand, oh, this is what an
empowerment model looks like,feels like, as opposed to this
other thing that I'm used to?

Speaker 3 (35:59):
like, as opposed to this other thing that I'm used
to, we spend a lot of timepreparing people for that
different mindset, because it isa hard one, because we do.
You know, every time I talk tosomeone about going on a trip,
they're like I just want to makea difference, I just want it to
be impactful.
I don't want to go and not haveit make a difference.
And and I love that, I lovethat we want to make a
difference.
But trying to help themunderstand you showing up just

(36:22):
because you care, like thatmakes a difference, like, yeah,
you're going to go and you'regoing to do something.
That's fabulous, but that'ssecondary.
The most important thing you cando is just show up.
Just show up and say man, this,you guys are doing incredible
work here, this is so cool andI'm so excited to participate in
whatever it is you might haveme participate in.

(36:42):
And you know the analogy that'ssimilar to the cape that I like
to give is like so we're all onthe bus together, that our
partners on the ground, they'redriving the bus and maybe the
community leaders are sitting inthe front couple rows.
You're in the back, like you'rein the back of the bus and
you're just back there saying,whoa, you guys are amazing, I
love this, you guys are awesome.

(37:03):
So it's like party in the back.
You guys are the party in theback.
Just hang out back there.
That's a great image.

Speaker 2 (37:11):
That's a great image In an empowering program.
How would you say theday-to-day interaction between
external partners and localcommunity members is different
than a more traditional reliefapproach?

Speaker 3 (37:29):
So traditional relief is much faster.
You can get in and you can getout and you have tangible
results pretty quickly.
So it's a nice way to be ableto report back to people hey,
this is how your money was spent, whereas empowering, like I,
don't get back with people tosay, hey, this is what this is,

(37:50):
you know, thank you so much foryour donation, this is what it's
achieved.
Here's a story, here's somepictures.
A lot of times it's six monthsto 12 months, because it just
takes a lot of time, and soagain it goes back to that whole
patience thing.
Relief is so easy to get backand say, hey, this is what you
did, thanks so much.
Empowering is just like hey, Iam going to get back to you,

(38:13):
thank you so much for yourdonation, it's going to be well,
sit tight.

Speaker 2 (38:20):
Yep that patience thing, and we're coming back to
patience over and over.

Speaker 1 (38:26):
Yeah, I think also with that, there's like American
mindset of crisis.
You know, we see somethinghappening around the world, we
see a child that's sick, we seea natural disaster, we see you
know any level of things and wethink this is a crisis that has
to be solved immediately and wehave this like fear.
If we don't act now, then wecan't make a difference.

(38:49):
And I think certainlyorganizations perpetuate this
idea.
You know you have to donateright this minute, or this child
is going to die and it you knowit's an effective fundraising
campaign.
But I think it does instillthat lack of patience that
you're talking about, that wehave to do it right, this second
.

(39:10):
And I think it's a lesson thatwe've started to learn from our
partners to not panic.
We'll see something on the newshappening in Sierra Leone a
coup, a riot, a disaster orsomething and we'll immediately
call them and say like, oh mygosh, what are you going to do?
And start panicking.
And they're like I'm going togo to work tomorrow.

(39:30):
I'm going to do my job.
It may take me longer becausethe roads may be blocked.
My job, it may take me longerbecause the roads may be blocked
, but there's no panic ever intheir voices about whatever is
going on, and I think that's avaluable, that's something we
can learn much more.

Speaker 2 (39:47):
And I want to go back to the point you were making
about being patient with donorsand the sort of intentional
education of donors that this isgoing to take longer, this is
going to be harder, you're notgoing to get feedback as quickly
, you know, as you would like,perhaps, or as you used to, and
things like that.
We've been talking, or I've beentalking for a year or so, about

(40:09):
the need to start changing ourlanguage around donations and
fundraising and using words likeinvestment, and so, instead of
you're donating this checkbecause a tanker blew up in
Freetown and they need reliefthis minute, and so you have to
get on your fundraiser, yourGoFundMe, and just shoot money

(40:33):
at that problem that you need tostart thinking about, or you
should start thinking about yourcharitable dollars as an
investment.
Are you investing in thiscommunity?
Are you investing in theempowerment of these families?
And just because I think thatword investment gives you a, it
gives you more patience, itgives you a sense.
This is a longer termcommitment to something that's

(40:55):
going to take longer but be moremeaningful.

Speaker 3 (40:59):
So I like that you're using that language Well yeah,
and I think investment is agreat word to use with donors.
I hope there comes a day wheredonors are more used to an
empowering type model, wherethey have learned enough that

(41:20):
relief is good in certainsituations, but most situations
you really want to invest inpeople and their development so
that they can change their owncommunities and they can drive
development in their communities, and so I think that's just a
huge mindset change for peoplein the US and I don't know, I

(41:43):
hope we can bridge it.
I hope enough nonprofits outthere.
Importance of local leadershipeven even in some crisis
situations, that is importantfor people on the ground to be
in the leadership position.

Speaker 2 (42:06):
So what role does like local knowledge and
existing community structuresand that kind of thing play in
shaping programs that are goingto genuinely empower people so
they can address their ownrelief?

Speaker 3 (42:18):
I think.
I think this is the key thatmost nonprofits miss is that
investment in local leaders, andso they never leave a community
, like I know quite a few, a lotof nonprofits that are doing
great holistic communitydevelopment but they haven't
left.
Nonprofits that are doing greatholistic community development

(42:38):
but they haven't left.
They have not left because ifthey leave, whatever projects,
programs they put in place startto deteriorate and that's
because they have not investedin those local leaders, and so
the biggest thing that they cando is, first of all, get to know

(42:58):
the community and not just theleaders in the community.
One of Hugo, who works for anorganization called Opulence in
Malawi well, he's actually thefounder.
One of the things he said to meone day was super helpful.
He said you know, when we startworking in a community and
meeting with the chiefs, whichare like mayors in the US for
knowing in Africa I know youguys know that, but for those

(43:22):
listening, the chiefs and themost verbal ones aren't
necessarily the best leaders orthe leaders that people will
follow.
Leaders that people will followlike they will look around the
room as they're meeting andconnecting and look for the
people that might be quiet butthat when they do speak, other
people listen and other peoplefollow.

(43:44):
So the first thing that theyhave to do is identify the real
leaders, the leaders that peoplewill follow, versus the most
outgoing or the loudest peoplein the room.
Once they've identified that,then they start having those
conversations about you knowwhat would you like your
community to look like, and andwhat does that?
And then you've got to beginwith the end in mind.

(44:06):
So as you're talking to thoseleaders, they need to know
you're not staying, you're notgoing to be there to the end of
time, like there's always goingto be an exit strategy.
So as you start, if you'retalking about food security, if
you're starting about economicempowerment, you should be also
starting by saying, okay, whatare our goals?

(44:26):
What does food security meanLike, what does that mean in
this community?
When we hit that target, wewill be gone and to hit that
target, part of that is in thatcommunity.
Do the local leaders, do theyhave a vision to reach more
people for food security?
Have you hit critical mass?
So maybe 60% in the communityare food secure.

(44:49):
Do they have trainers?
Do they have people that knowenough about what food security
looks like, what permaculture,whatever agronomy that they're
doing that has they have peoplethat know enough about what food
security looks like?
What permaculture, whateveragronomy that they're doing that
has proven successful in thatarea?
Are there enough people therethat can help new people become
food secure?
And then, are the chiefs?

(45:11):
Are all of the different levelsof leadership in that community
?
Are they on board with thisproject?
Will they continue to supportthe other leaders of these
different levels of the project?
So I think if you don't have anyof that, like if you don't have
local leaders for any of thosethings, you're never going to
leave a community.
You're going to be thereforever.
So then you're limited.

(45:31):
You can't reach more people,and the whole goal of nonprofits
is to reach more people.
No one wants to be in the samecommunity forever.
So without empowerment you'renot going to reach more people.
You're wasting money, you'rethrowing it away.

Speaker 1 (45:46):
I actually was listening to a podcast today or
a training webinar, and it was aproverb from the DRC that says
a good chief is like a forestEveryone can go there and get
something.
So this idea that leaders arepeople where, they are resources
for their community and theydevelop those resources and

(46:07):
cultivate that forest so thatpeople can get what they need to
thrive, I think yeah, I thinkyou're totally spot on with that
.
Let's talk a little bit aboutmeasurement, monitoring and
evaluation.
That's kind of supposed to bemy bread and butter.
So I think what you're sayingis we need to ask donors to

(46:30):
invest long-term.
You know, let's make thislong-term investment in a
community, but if we're talkingabout long-term, let's make this
long-term investment in acommunity, but if we're talking
about long-term investment, thatdoesn't show results
immediately.
So how do we go about showingimpact?
How do we measure empowermentin practice?
How do we know that what we'redoing is actually doing that

(46:53):
before we get to that finalstage of it?
What are the changes andindicators that?

Speaker 3 (47:01):
So in that I almost hear two different questions.
One is showing impact to donorsand then the other is, you know
, monitoring, evaluation, whencan you?
When can you move on fromeither community or have that
project come to an end?
Donors like.

(47:27):
Part of it is a little bitalmost easier on the front end
because you're like 20 peopletrained so show some pictures of
the project, give a story abouthow that person's life is
different because of thatproject, with a picture like I
think that usually comes withinsix months to a year of the
beginning of a project, or atleast that's what I found in the
different projects that we do.

(47:48):
The harder part is usuallythere's several years after that
before you can actually leaveand there's not a whole lot to
show for it.
And that's where it gets tricky, because part of that is the
support that creating thatfoundation for those leaders.
Because if you go in and allyou're doing is training those
leaders on conflict management,project management, monitoring

(48:10):
and evaluation, like they'regonna, they're like see, like
nothing is happening from this,all you're doing is wasting my
time.
I still can't feed my family.
So the nonprofits that we workwith, like the first thing that
they're doing is like a foodsecurity project.
So all of a sudden they're ableto start feeding their family,
they're able to get vegetableswithin several weeks and you're

(48:31):
able to have fruit trees withinsix months or banana trees, and
then you know more like likethey're able to see some change
once they can.
The leaders can see those thatchange and they're they're able
to feed their families andthey're they're starting other
businesses because they'reselling some of the extra food
that they're even making andthey're seeing this change.
They're willing to say, oh okay, you guys are doing good things

(48:55):
.
Now I'm willing to listen toyou about conflict management.
I'm willing to listen to you onhow to run a project.
So you almost have to go backthen and put that foundation and
give them those skills so thatthey can continue to do their
projects.
Some people may have theseskills, but when we're talking
about rural communities andvulnerable countries, like in a

(49:19):
lot of African countries, theyhaven't had the opportunity to
have classes on leadershipclasses or how to run a project
and how to follow up and how tomonitor, like they just don't
know.
I didn't know 12, 15 years ago.
I had no idea.
Someone had to train me, I hadto learn.
So that's where it's almostharder with donors, because you

(49:40):
need to spend several yearsgoing in and making sure.
And this kind of goes back tothe second part of the what.
I heard your question as your,your metrics.
Are the community leaders ableto make decisions?
Are they leading the trainings?
Are they able to track andmonitor their projects that
they're doing in theircommunities?

(50:01):
Can they troubleshoot whenthere are challenges in the
program and respond with theirown resources?
Those are kind of like when allof a sudden the leaders are
handling those in a project,it's like okay, they don't need
us, like they don't need usanymore.
And then, of course, whenfamilies are able to continue to
improve their current way oflife, and that's I think that's

(50:22):
the hard thing with any project.
When you begin with the end inmind.
What is that end?
Because, like you, could bethere forever.
I mean, is the end they know avocation?
Is the end their universitytrained?
Is the end that they're, youknow, eating nutritious meals
two times a day, or is it threetimes a day?
Like what?
What is your end goal?

(50:44):
And then that's helps you knowwhen to leave that project, and
that's a question everynonprofit and community needs to
answer.
I think when you start theproject.

Speaker 1 (50:55):
Laura and I attended a conference last year and we
were talking about what is thatfuture state that you want to
reach?
I feel like a lot of nonprofitsare like.
Well, you know, children aremalnourished and they're living
on the streets and there's nofood security and there's no
jobs and there's no this butthey never stop and think what

(51:18):
would the world look like, whatwould this community look like
if it was thriving and thenaiming towards that future state
, as you're talking about?
Really articulating this is howwe know that we're done is
super, super important, and Ilike the way that you combined.
You're right, those were twoquestions that I asked together,

(51:38):
but I feel like you linked themwell together, because it's not
just donors that we have todemonstrate impact to.
It's also community recipientsthat have to see that this is
something that's actually goingto help me and benefit me in a
tangible way.
It's the organizations that areimplementing this that have to

(51:59):
say this is actually going towork and going to be empowering.
Going to work and going to beempowering.

Speaker 2 (52:07):
All right.
Well, we're getting close tothe end, and so I want to ask
you what advice would you giveto organizations that are
listening, that might be overlyreliant on a relief model,
because that's sort of wherethey came from, but they do
genuinely want to shift toward amore empowering approach?
How would you advise them tostart on that path?

Speaker 3 (52:29):
I think I mean there's two huge buckets that
they would have to work on.
First, again, the donorseducating donors and
understanding why empowerment iscrucial if you really want to
see life change, that it's goingto take many years and that,
like before, you can even godown the path of empowerment.

(52:51):
You need to make sure, eitherif you know, if you're a
nonprofit, your board is, youknow, if they can get behind it
and they can see the vision,then they can also work with you
to cast that vision for yourdonors.
Again, it is a very hardtransition to make, but I think
it's a very worthy transitionand I think we're doing a
disservice to people around theworld if we don't transition to

(53:15):
more of an empowerment model.
And then the other piece ofadvice is no, you can't make
your partner change.
The ultimate power that you haveis in deciding whether you're
going to continue to work withthat partner or whether you're
not.
And you have to give them time,like you may come and say hey,
I've, you know, I've beenhearing about and I've been

(53:37):
talking to people about thisempowerment model and it totally
makes sense to me and this iswhy.
But they're going to be likewhat are you talking about?
I mean, I don't think this wordhas been spread as globally as
we'd like to, especially whenyou, you know, go into the rural
communities around the globeand so it's going to take time

(53:57):
for them to adjust and lots ofconversation.
So I think there needs to bepatience and if you do decide to
end, if you do decide, hey, wecan't continue to do this relief
model, which is heartbreakingand wrenching for everyone, end
it well, make sure you, whetheryou have to back out over a year
or two years or three years,try to do no harm as you end

(54:23):
that partnership.
But I wouldn't, as horrible asit is, I wouldn't stay in a
relief mode just because you'vebeen partners for five or 10
years, because then they're justgoing to rely on you forever
and it's going to be generationafter generation that is going
to be looking for a handout andthat's just not fair to those

(54:44):
future children, those futuregenerations.

Speaker 2 (54:49):
I think that's so important.
I think, you know, I've watchedindividuals build dependency in
people and their families.
I've watched communities build,you know, or nonprofits build
dependency in communities andthings like that, and I think
people don't realize the harmthat causes.
You know, because you're tryingto do something nice, you're
trying to, you're trying to help, but creating those endless

(55:14):
cycles of dependency andgenerations of dependency
cripples people.
It cripples people's ability todo for themselves, and I'm
struck by Jesus's example of youknow.
He didn't do things for people.
He told people pick up your matand walk.

(55:35):
He worked with people, heengaged people, but he expected
them to engage in their ownrescue alongside him.
And so it's sort of baked in toyou know our mission as
Christians to approach it inthis way, and so I'd like to see
us get back to thinking of itthat way, looking back over.

(55:58):
Oh so go ahead.

Speaker 3 (56:00):
You say, well, and he made people think, like his
parables.
He didn't tell people what todo, he didn't direct them, like
he would tell a story and makethem come to their own
conclusions.
Like how did we get so off, howdid we get so off track with
this?
Like, seriously, jesus nailedthousands of years ago.
Yet here we are.

Speaker 2 (56:20):
Yes, and yet here we are, absolutely Still learning
this lesson.
And yet here we are.

Speaker 1 (56:26):
Absolutely Still learning this lesson and the
patience thing I mean.
He said the poor will always beamong you and I think all
accounts of the Bible show thatthis man was not in a rush to do
just about anything.
You know he's going to see.
You know he's getting a callfor Lazarus and they're like you
need to go see him now.
He's going to die now and he'slike you know we'll get there

(56:47):
when I get there.

Speaker 2 (56:50):
Don't worry, yeah, I'm headed that way.
Yeah, that's good, that'sreally good.
So, looking back over yourcareer, what's one key lesson
that you've learned aboutbalancing immediate needs and
long-term community development?

Speaker 3 (57:06):
That there's no easy answer, there's no staples easy
button.
It's not black and white.
It's so hard and I can't tellyou like I have learned so much
over the last 14 years becauseof the incredible people that
I've gotten to work with, fromthe mistakes that we've made

(57:30):
along the way, and I I stilldefinitely don't know everything
.
I'm still learning and I'mstill scared to death, and I
wouldn't say scared to death,but like I'm still concerned
that I'm making mistakes and arewe doing it right?
And every decision that we make, we try to do it thoughtfully

(57:50):
and prayerfully and with lots ofconversations.
And is it the right thing?
And part of that is you have topray, you have to listen well,
you have to form thoserelationships and then you have
to give the rest to God and sayyou know what I'm doing, the
best I can do and I'm going tocontinue doing the best I can do
, but ultimately, like this hasgot to be you, because I can't

(58:15):
do it, I'm just not equipped,I'm not smart enough to even try
to solve some of these hugechallenges that take place
around the world.

Speaker 2 (58:26):
You know, he is a big piece, absolutely.

Speaker 1 (58:31):
Well, there's one last question that we like to
ask all of our guests, which iswhat keeps you optimistic or
hopeful?

Speaker 3 (58:39):
Every time I see someone who thought they weren't
capable of doing something,find out that they not only are
capable, but they're more thancapable just brings me absolute,
pure joy.
When I see someone who would notlook me in the eye before, just
because I don't know they'rebeaten down or didn't think they

(59:04):
had any skills, like stand uptall, look me in the eye and say
this is what I think we shoulddo, or, you know, this is the
project I would like to do, thisis my plan.
This is what has happened in mylife because I've done all this
other stuff.
Like when they exude thatconfidence, I can't like I am
literally my breath is takenaway, like just this feeling

(59:25):
that just bubbles up inside me.
I can't like I am literally mybreath is taken away, like just
this feeling that just bubblesup inside me and I'm like, oh,
this is why we do this, this isso cool, and like I, you can't
explain it until you see it, andthat is just that is what wakes
me up every morning.
And I see all the wars and Isee you know all the bad things

(59:45):
that are happening, whether itbe natural disasters when I see
all the violence and all thehatred that's out there.
I'm like there are good peopledoing amazing things in their
communities around the world andwe can't lose sight of that.

Speaker 2 (59:58):
That's a great note to end on Sheree.
I want to thank you for beingon the podcast with us and I
want to thank our audience forjoining us on this episode.
We like to say it's a big messyworld out there and there is no
shortage of need, but we hereat Optimistic Voices believe
that with radical courage andradical collaboration together,

(01:00:19):
we can change the world.
Thanks for listening.