The systematic abduction and militarization of Ukrainian children by Russian forces represents one of the most devastating yet underreported aspects of the ongoing war. In this eye-opening conversation, Ukrainian historian and religious scholar Vladyslav Havrylov reveals the shocking scope and calculated nature of Russia's deportation campaign targeting Ukrainian youth.
His research with the Institute of World History at Ukraine's National Academy of Sciences and his work documenting war crimes with multiple humanitarian organizations exposes the brutal reality behind Russia's euphemistically labeled "evacuations." Since February 2022, Russian authorities have forcibly transferred thousands of Ukrainian children from occupied territories to Russia, with official counts identifying 19,546 deported children. Most alarmingly, only 1,366 have been successfully returned after three years of war.
Children are taken by bus or train, processed through filtration camps & dispersed across a network of "temporary accommodation centers" throughout Russia. Many are deliberately sent to remote regions like Siberia. In these facilities, Ukrainian children undergo systematic indoctrination, losing their documents, language, and cultural identity. They are funneled into paramilitary organizations like "Young Army" where children as young as eight receive military training.
Havrylov reveals violations of Geneva Convention and international law. This scheme serves Russia's demographic interests in its underpopulated eastern regions by converting Ukrainian children into Russian patriots, and conscripting them into the Russi
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
Welcome to the Optimistic Voices podcast.
We're your hosts, Yasmin Vaughnand Laura Horka.
In this episode, we're going totalk to Vladislav Haverlov,
researcher and historian, on theissue impacting Ukrainian
children in the current war withRussia.
Many of our listeners arefamiliar with the history of
helping children worldwide andhow we got our start as an
(00:29):
orphanage launched in responseto an 11-year civil war in
Sierra Leone, which resulted inthousands of children being
separated from their families.
What we don't talk a lot aboutis a subset of children who were
kidnapped and forced toparticipate in the violence as
child soldiers during that war.
During the Sierra Leone CivilWar, which lasted from 1991 to
(00:49):
2002, the use of child soldiersbecame one of the most horrific
aspects of the conflict.
Armed groups, most notably theRevolutionary United Front, or
RUF, abducted thousands ofchildren, some as young as seven
years old, from their homes andtheir villages.
These children were forciblyconscripted, brutalized and
(01:10):
often forced to commitatrocities, including killing
family members.
In order to sever theiremotional ties and ensure
loyalty to their captors, Boyswere typically trained as
fighters.
Girls were subjected to sexualviolence and used as bushwives.
The widespread use of childsoldiers not only violated
international humanitarian law,but it also left a deep and
(01:33):
lasting impact on the childreninvolved, many of whom faced
immense psychological trauma andstruggled to reintegrate into
society after the war ended.
Speaker 3 (01:43):
Sadly, this practice is very common in conflict and
is currently rearing its uglyhead in another place around the
world.
In nearly every armed conflictsince the beginning of time,
children have participated informal or informal military
roles.
Every year, the US StateDepartment publishes a report
called Trafficking in Persons,which includes a list of foreign
(02:03):
governments identified duringthe previous year as having
governmental armed forces,police work or other security
forces that are recruiting andusing child soldiers.
On the list in 2024 wasAfghanistan, burma, cameroon,
central African Republic,democratic Republic of Congo,
iran, libya, mali, russia,rwanda, somalia, south Sudan,
(02:29):
sudan, syria, turkey, venezuelaand Yemen.
In today's episode, we are goingto be talking specifically
about Russia.
Russia's use of child soldiersis starkly highlighted in
Vladislav's recent article forGeorgetown University's
Collaborative on GlobalChildren's Issues, where he
detailed how abducted Ukrainianchildren are being deported,
(02:51):
ideologically re-educated andmilitarized.
This article speaks ofthousands of Ukrainian minors
that are forcibly transferredfrom occupied territories and
placed into so-called temporaryaccommodation centers in Russia,
where they are indoctrinatedthrough state-backed
paramilitary organizations.
Vladislav emphasizes that suchpractices abduction,
(03:15):
rucification and forced militarytraining constitute clear
violations of internationalhumanitarian law and underscore
a troubling pattern thesystematic recruitment of
children as instruments of war.
Speaker 2 (03:27):
Vlad is a Ukrainian historian and a religious
scholar based in Kyiv.
His research interests includethe history of mass deportations
in the Soviet era, stateconfessional relations, the
policy of the Catholic Churchduring World War II and the role
of Christian clergy in theHolocaust.
He's pursuing doctoral work onVatican policy during World War
II the role of Christian clergyin the Holocaust.
He's pursuing doctoral work onVatican policy during World War
(03:48):
II and he works with theInstitute of World History at
the National Academy of Sciencesin Ukraine, where he
specializes in the history ofinternational religious
relations in the 20th centuryand the study of genocide and
war crimes in Europe.
Vlad is an analyst at the MediaInitiative for Human Rights,
where he focuses on reporting oncrimes committed against
prisoners of war and civiliandetainees on the Russian
(04:10):
Federation's territory.
He is also an invited expertwith the charity foundation East
SOS, where he works to documentRussian war crimes against
Ukrainian children in theaftermath of the full-scale
Russian invasion.
He further serves as an advisorto the Child Deportation
Investigative Task Force atOSINT for Ukraine.
Vlad is a 2024-2025Collaborative Fellow with the
(04:35):
Collaborative on GlobalChildren's Issues at Georgetown
University, where he waspreviously a 2023-2024 Research
Fellow, and his work has focusedon the forcible transfer,
deportation, adoption andre-education of Ukrainian
children by Russia.
Vlad.
Welcome to the show.
Speaker 4 (04:54):
Thank you.
Thank you so much.
I'm very glad to see you all.
Speaker 3 (04:58):
To begin, I wonder if you can share a bit of world
history on children'sinvolvement in conflict settings
.
Speaker 4 (05:12):
Yes, thank you.
You know it's a very hard forunderstanding question because
if we're talking aboutespecially how many children are
involved during especially last2021 century in war conflict,
we could mention about more than400 million children in all
over the world involved andinjured from war conflict and
(05:38):
it's a global problem.
And you know especially aboutwhat you mentioned earlier,
about the problem with warcrimes against children in
Sierra Leone, in Rwanda, inAsian countries, and especially
what we know right now aboutRussian war crimes against
(06:02):
Ukrainian children.
And it should notice that it'snot only new practice, because
we know about especially a lotabout Soviet practice when from
west part of Ukraine and fromcentral part of Ukraine, people
with children and with adultpeople are forcibly deported,
(06:26):
that they're fighting againstSoviet regime and they're
deported to Siberia and to thenorthern Kazakhstan.
And in the last years we justinvestigated this problem as a
historian and we decided maybeit's only history, but you know
(06:50):
it's not only history.
It's happened right now again,it's happened after 2014, but
very forcible happened,especially after 24 February
2022.
It's a thousand of war crimes,what we know right now about
(07:13):
Russian officials who are doingthese crimes against Ukrainian
children and, for a pity, it'sour everyday reality right now.
Speaker 3 (07:24):
Yeah, so you mentioned this is not new, and I
think for those of us who havebeen with our organization for a
while, our desire to care forchildren who've lived through
trauma is something thatunderlies a lot of the work that
we do, and this is going totouch a very deep chord with
those who are listening.
We do, and this is going totouch a very deep chord with
(07:45):
those who are listening.
It is still been verysurprising to me to realize how
often this happens in conflicts.
Speaker 4 (07:58):
So why do you think that is the case?
If we're talking about warconflict, all in general, a lot
of soldiers who are trying tooccupy some territories, they
try to use children in theseoccupied territories and it's
different cases.
Sometimes they try to use thesechildren for helping in some
(08:22):
medicine cases, these childrenfor helping in some medicine
cases, some bodies.
They try to adopt thesechildren but sometimes in very
tragical cases they try togrowing up these children,
erased their identity andrecreating these children to
their future soldiers.
(08:43):
And it's a usual criminalpractice in different war
conflict, what we mentioned lasttime.
Speaker 3 (08:52):
So can you help our listeners understand the scale
of what's happening right now inRussia?
What do we know, what do we notknow yet about the abduction
and militarization of Ukrainianchildren by Russian forces?
Speaker 4 (09:09):
Yes, you know, after 24 February 2022, when Russia
officials, russian president,decided to occupy Ukraine and
Russian troops occupied land byland of Ukrainian regions.
They after that, forcibledeported children to Russia,
(09:36):
especially from occupiedterritories.
From my investigation I knowthat it started not only 24
February.
Some cases happened, especiallyfrom 2014.
From occupied Crimea, theycreating, like a train,
(09:59):
evacuation trains, so-calledevacuation trains, and remove
children from occupied Crimeaterritories to Siberia, to Far
East and to another differentregions of Russia.
But in 2022, it's moremass-stabbing this process and
more mass this process.
(10:21):
And what we mentioned is that,especially from occupied
territories of Luhansk andDonetsk region of Ukraine, in 19
February 2022, before a weekfor full-scale invasion, they're
creating for future evacuationtrains and evacuation bus and
(10:48):
after that they removed someadults and especially children
from occupied territory ofLuhansk region to Russian region
near Ukrainian border.
It's Rostov region of Russia,belgorod region of Russia,
voronezh region of Russia.
(11:09):
And after that they createdlike a temporary accommodation
centers and they replaced inthis temporary accommodation
centers, especially Ukrainianchildren from occupied
territories.
And we mentioned that thesetemporarily accommodation
(11:30):
centers, it's a lot of thesecenters in especially Russia
territory.
It's maybe 60, 70, nobody knowsclearly number about that
because they every day try toremove children in these centers
and after that removed in nextplaces far away from Ukrainian
(11:55):
border, and this is a problemfor what we have after full
scale invasion with Russia.
Speaker 3 (12:03):
And so it's likely that this has been going on for
a while, but really the massivemovement of this began in 2022,
and the children being deportedin trains and on buses, but
constantly being moved around inthese temporary accommodation
centers as well, so that they'renot staying in a stable place.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
Well, and that makes it impossible Sorry, yes, it
makes it impossible to keeptrack of them and for Ukraine to
know where they wind up.
Speaker 3 (12:33):
Yeah, yeah, wow.
So in your article, you writeabout the legal and moral
dimensions of these crimes.
So why do you think it isessential to frame this as a war
crime rather than a simplehumanitarian crisis, which is
how Russia is framing this?
Speaker 4 (12:53):
Yes, you know it's considered with an evaluation
against Ukrainian children.
But it's war crimes becauseit's crimes against Geneva
Convention and it's crimes thathave effects of crimes against
humanity.
And war crimes because nobodyhas a chance to forcibly deport
(13:23):
children from their native landto another country, especially
if it's a country of occupiers,because Russian troops occupied
these territories and especiallydeported these children to
Russia.
And if Ukrainian side tried tocommunicate with Russia side and
(13:44):
said from them if you have somelist of these children, maybe
you have name and surname ofthese children they have no
connection with Russian sidebecause they don't want to give
for Ukraine this information andespecially these facts
mentioned, that it's a war crimebecause it's a planned policy
(14:08):
to forcibly deport a thousand ofUkrainian children from their
native land to Russia territoryand that's why it's a big and
massive war crimes from last,maybe I don't know how many
years from last, how many years,yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (14:34):
So this isn't an instance of refugees being taken
in by another nation during aconflict setting.
We're talking about forcibledeportation by the occupying
force, not communicating withUkraine about who these children
(14:56):
are, where they are, where theycame from, and all of that.
So it is a violation of GenevaConventions, not a not a simple
matter of a country taking inrefugees, and you also
constitute it as a plannedpolicy.
This isn't by accident thatthis is happening.
Speaker 2 (15:16):
Well, and to that point I think a lot of your work
, vlad, has focused on how thisis a tactic that Russia has used
in the past.
Can you share a little bit ofthe history of Russia's
paramilitary training and theindoctrination of children that
they've done sort ofhistorically?
Speaker 4 (15:35):
Yes, you know, from 2016 in Russia Federation they
founded a paramilitary movement,more largest paramilitary
movement from last time.
It's called Young Army and it'sYoung Army created by
(15:55):
ex-minister of defense SergeiShoigu, and they try to educate
children from 8 to 16 years oldin paramilitary side and
especially before full-scaleinvasion, most of branches of
(16:16):
this movement existed only inRussia Federation, but after
full-scale invasion they creatednew branches, especially new
occupied territories, and thesebranches were founded especially
in Donetsk, in Luhansk, inoccupied Melitopol, in occupied
(16:37):
Mariupol and occupied Hynichesk,berdyansk all of the city.
For a pity, right now, underRussian occupation, they created
this new branch of of a youngarmy and they try to join for
this paramilitary movement,especially children from
(16:58):
occupied territories.
Maybe we could compare it,because it's a very aggressive
movement, you know.
We could compare it withespecially Hitlerjugend, because
we know about effects, realeffects, with photo with surname
(17:21):
of children who are especiallygrowing up in young army, last
four or five years ago and, fora pity, they've been killed,
especially in Russian armies.
When they join after theyalready have 18 years old.
(17:43):
They join two Russian forcesand fighting against Ukraine.
It's a circumstance of thisparamilitary education, because
Russian officials and officersbrainwashed a lot of years their
mind and after that they joinedthe Russian army and fought
(18:09):
against Ukraine.
So that's why it's a verydangerous movement.
But what I want to mention isthat it's not only one movement
in occupied territories, becauseRussia is creating movements
for all ages of children.
If you are very small children,you could connect for Eagles of
(18:31):
Russia.
It's like from kindergarten age.
After that you could join theyoung guard, after that you
could join the young army.
It's like a structure,structure of reeducational
process, structure ofparamilitary organization which
(18:54):
tried to catch all of young agein occupied territories and,
especially after that part ofthe children, tried to deport to
Russia territory and growing upafter that these children,
especially in Russia territory.
Speaker 2 (19:14):
It's honestly so shocking to me the idea of these
children being indoctrinatedfrom very young ages and that
that indoctrination just a yearover year over year over year in
these indoctrination camps.
You speak of the young armyhaving started in 2016 but now,
of course, spreading since theoccupation and new camps you
(19:36):
know, springing up everywhere,but the thought of you know, now
we have a kindergarten programso we can begin that
indoctrination as early aspossible, and then these
children who are Ukrainian havetheir identities erased and
their culture taken from them,their connection to their home
country, and then end up, willend up.
(19:58):
If you know, Russia has its wayin conscripting them and
fighting against their owncountrymen in this conflict.
It's a horrifying, it's just ahorrifying thing.
Horrifying, it's just ahorrifying thing.
Can you walk us through whattypically happens to a child
like sort of?
Take us through a timeline of achild who gets deported from
(20:22):
Ukraine to Russia?
Speaker 4 (20:36):
what those rehabilitation camps and
temporary accommodation centersactually look like on the ground
.
Yes, you know, especially afirst stage of this criminal
process it's when, especially,they're taking children to bus
or taking these children toevacuation train.
In some cases they're takingthese children with parents, in
some cases without parents,especially orphans, and after
(20:56):
that they must have some processin filtration camps.
It's in a border with occupiedterritories of Ukraine and
Russia.
After filtration camps they areremoved to temporary
(21:17):
accommodation centers, temporaryaccommodation centers in
general.
It's a kindergarten,ex-kindergarten, it's a hostel
for students from Soviet time.
If you try to find, for example,information about these
(21:39):
temporary accommodation centersit's so hard because Russia
officials not silly, they don'thave this name.
Temporary accommodation centersit's like not very official
information, they don't havethis name.
Temporary Accommodation Centersit's like not very official
information.
But if you analyze a lot ofopen sources you could find this
(22:03):
information that, for example,children from Temporary
Accommodation Centers,especially they hold from
so-called Donetsk People'sRepublic, especially they hold
from so-called Donetsk People'sRepublic, forcibly deported to
Rostov from a hostel forstudents and it's more than 100
(22:24):
children about like healthyrecreation centers and slash
summer camps, flowers in Rostovregion and it's usually summer
camps from Soviet time, butright now in these summer camps
(22:50):
they have a lot of children fromoccupied Donetsk region and
every time they try tore-educate these children and
sometimes they try to put forthem Russian documents and cut
especially Ukrainian documents.
And it's how these temporaryaccommodation centers work on
(23:11):
the ground.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
It almost sounds when you're describing like when you
say a hostel, and it has kindof a school component.
It sounds like a boardingschool almost or an orphanage
with an education piece orsomething like that.
I think our listeners are goingto be surprised to hear that
some of these families like thefirst stage of this abduction is
(23:37):
sometimes the parents are takenas well and sometimes you know
it's just the orphans.
How are children and familiesbeing targeted?
So I think our listeners,because they're familiar with
this sort of orphanage story,because that's in our background
and so they understand, I think, intuitively, that an orphan,
(23:59):
somebody separated from a family, is particularly vulnerable.
But how did Russia target notjust orphans but also children
who have living parents thatthey were perhaps living with,
like?
What tactics did they use tolegitimize or disguise their
abductions and make them seemlike they were something else?
Speaker 4 (24:18):
Yes, thank you, especially if we're talking
about children who have parents,in some cases occupied
administration.
It's like a Russian, notespecially official Russian
administration.
It's like a Russian, notespecially official Russian
administration, but it'scollaborators with Russian
(24:39):
administrators in occupiedterritories.
They come to families and saidyou know, it's very dangerous in
this place and you should onlysend your children to summer
camps for recreation, forrehabilitation.
After that parents asked thesepeople about where are our
(25:04):
children and they said you knowyou have no chance, especially
to come back in right now, thechildren to home, because it's
very dangerous in these places.
And if you want you must go toRussia and try to come back in
with your own the children tohome, but if you don't want,
(25:25):
they will be staying in Russiafor the end of war.
It's one case.
Another case it's very tragicwith orphans.
Why very tragic?
Because they have no connectionwith Ukrainian side.
It's orphans, it's a very hardquestion and they only put these
(25:50):
children from orphans andremoved these children to
Russian orphanage.
And that's all I know about onecase from Kherson region One
head of orphan centers tried tosave children and he saved these
(26:17):
children in his home after thatin church, but for a pity,
russian soldiers found thesechildren and after that deported
these, this shooting to Russia,and so it's one of cases, how
it works, and maybe I want toshare for you stories about one
(26:43):
man from Mariupol cityespecially.
He has three children and onetime Russian officials forcibly
deported him with children toRussia, but they're staying him
(27:03):
in filtration camps because theyfind photos with Ukrainian
uniform from Ukrainian army,ukrainian uniform from Ukrainian
army, and children especiallydeported far away to Moscow
region to orphanage, and he hasonly small chance to connect
(27:24):
with his children and if infuture he don't go for his
children and come back in thischildren to home, russian
families could adopt hischildren.
And it's very tragical storiesbut it's a reality, what we know
(27:52):
, for example, from our evidence, it's a real story, what I'm
talking about.
Speaker 2 (28:00):
That's really heartbreaking.
I know in our own stories wesee a lot of parents who become
convinced by corrupt orphanageleaders that their children know
there are correct orphanageactors who will then deport
(28:27):
those you know, send thosechildren out for international
adoption or, you know, and theunsuspecting family doesn't, you
know, lose this track of theirchild forever.
So it's not surprising to me,it's heartbreaking to me to hear
of someone like this man who isyou know, he's got his three
children and then they're takeninto an orphanage and he has the
(28:50):
chance of losing them to aRussian family forever.
So, yeah, that's veryheartbreaking.
So we talk a lot about this sortof the ways in which your
article talks, a lot about theways in which Russia sort of is
taking these children, isreeducating them, moving them
(29:12):
from place to place to place toplace, changing their names,
erasing their sort of Ukrainianidentity.
Obviously, orphans that comeout of orphanages oftentimes
(29:32):
there's not documentation thatfollows them, birth certificates
and things that connect them totheir families, to people in
Ukraine, but even now, childrenthat have been taken from
families, russia is erasingtheir names and erasing their
identity.
And so what are the biggestrisks for the children if these
crimes are not being properlydocumented now Because, as
you're saying, russia is tellingone story to the world and
violating Geneva Conventions by,you know, not doing things in
(29:55):
terms of tracing kids andkeeping them connected to their
families and to Ukraine the waythat they're supposed to.
Speaker 4 (30:02):
Yes, thank you.
You know, for my mind, it's aglobal risk for these children
to become future just Russiancitizens.
Why it could work?
Because with my colleagues,especially not far away, we have
(30:25):
a meeting and we discussedabout, especially, how many
children are successfullyreturned to Ukraine right now.
And especially, we know aboutofficial numbers of identified
children yes, 19,546.
And from these numbers numbers,after three years of full-scale
(30:47):
invasion force successfullyreturned only 1,366.
And if you could thinking aboutthat, you you should mention
that it's maybe just a fewhundred children per year and if
(31:12):
this process will be so slowly,we must have 50 years to come
back these children to home.
It's not effective becauseafter that they're growing up in
Russia and it's a risk thatafter these years they said to
us we don't want to come backinto Ukraine.
Speaker 2 (31:35):
You know, and it's a global risk for these children,
for my mind, yeah, so when wetalked last week as we were
preparing for this episode, Isaid to you that in my mind it's
a kind of genocide.
It's a way of erasing wholechunks of Ukraine just by
(31:57):
re-educating well,indoctrinating these children
and making them Russian andturning them into soldiers, and
I think that word is probablyshocking.
It's probably not what I thinkour listeners may be thinking,
(32:19):
but I think that's a fairassessment.
Speaker 4 (32:23):
Yes, yes, I especially agree with you
because it's some things that weshould mention, that it's a
kind of genocide Because,especially if you're talking
about plant policy, to arise anidentity about plant policy, not
(32:45):
to come back in the childrenever for Ukraine it's especially
what you're talking about.
Speaker 3 (32:51):
Yes, and, not to mention, it's a violation of the
UN Conventions on the Rights ofa Child, which is to have a
right to their own culture andlanguage and people group.
Yeah, in terms of otherconventions that are being
violated here we spoke a littlebit about the Geneva Conventions
(33:12):
and I was wondering if youcould elaborate a little bit
more on some of the conventionsfor children who are displaced
and provide some more context asto what efforts Russia has made
towards reuniting them and thethings that they have not done
that are violations.
Speaker 4 (33:35):
Yes, you know, it's several violations against
Geneva Conventions and againstthe Rome Statute and against the
Rome Statute, especiallybecause you know, especially the
49th article of the GenevaConvention.
You have no chance to deportpeople from one ethnic group to
(34:12):
another in a war, conflict,conflict, and especially another
article mentioned about that.
If you are talking aboutevacuation, you should
immediately inform nativecountry with list of people who
are evacuated from you, from you, and especially places where
they are situated, especiallyindividual names, surnames of
(34:33):
these people.
But Russian officials don'twant to do that and especially
it's a global problem and it's aseveral violation against
Geneva Convention, against RomeStatute, against some acts of
crimes against humanity.
It's something that could becharacters of genocide.
(34:57):
They're doing all of thisviolation in their policy all of
this violation in in theirpolicy.
Speaker 3 (35:09):
So, with this being clear violations, you spoke
about russia as a humanitarian.
You know crisis not as a warcrime, but how is it that they
are, uh, characterizing it thatway?
Speaker 4 (35:22):
uh About humanitarian crisis.
Yeah, yes.
Yes, you know, I think it's formy mind, maybe for my
investigation, but it's alogical fact.
You know, especially some ofRussian officials in their
speech talking about a very bigdemographic crisis in Russia and
(35:48):
it could be one of the reasonswhy they forcibly deported
Ukrainian children and don'twant to share information about
them and especially this problemcreating a humanitarian crisis
to Ukraine too.
Creating a humanitarian crisisto Ukraine too, because you know
(36:11):
, we lost a million of peoplefor a pity last year, because
some people were killed for apity.
Some people escaped against warabroad yes, to another country
and nobody knows about theirfuture decisions, if they want
(36:31):
to come back into Ukraine or notto come back in Ukraine ever.
And plus to it, we have thisproblem with these violations
when Russia tried to speciallystolen from Ukraine thousands of
children.
For Ukraine, it's a bighumanitarian crisis, but I think
(36:53):
for Russian side, they have ahumanitarian crisis too, but
especially with demographysituation, and it's considered
especially in far regions ofRussia, especially in the Far
East, in Siberia.
So that's why it's very logicalwhen we find especially
(37:13):
temporary accommodation centersin Siberia and in the Far East
for a pity, why they do that?
Because they want to stay thesechildren in these places and
not to come back these childrento home.
Speaker 3 (37:30):
And is there a window of opportunity for this?
What happens to these childrenif too much time goes by without
proper identification?
Speaker 4 (37:50):
identification.
Yes, you know russian officialscreated a very strong program
what they want to do with thesechildren and we, for a pity,
have not so many time what wecould do with that because,
especially every time, what I'mtalking to you about earlier,
they have a several branch ofparamilitary organization.
They have a several branch ofsummer camps.
(38:12):
In summer camps they have withthem another lessons like
Russian patriotism especially.
They try to explain for thesechildren that it's especially
mentioned that it's not waragainst ukraine, it's war
(38:34):
against usa, against youreuropean countries, because all
these countries want to destroyit, especially russia, and you
must be on Russia's side.
It's a lot of these propagandalessons for these children and
it's what is more dangerous thatit's child mind.
(38:54):
You know they have no skillsfor a piteous right now to
compare some facts, facts, andit's very hard for them.
And if we not identify thesechildren for a few years, we
(39:15):
have a very big risk to lostthese children.
Yes, and especially why we dothis work?
Because it's very big risk tolost these children.
Speaker 3 (39:26):
Yeah, so the the window of opportunity is really,
um, it's very small becausechildren's minds are so easily
influenced and the more timethat passes, the more of that
indoctrination.
Education has a an opportunityto take hold.
Also spoke a little bit aboutabout when we talked earlier
(39:46):
this week about the use ofchildren as combatants by
militant groups versus the useof children by governments.
Why is it that you think that'san important distinction to
make?
You know guerrilla groups ornon-government-backed groups
having an uprising that recruitschildren versus
(40:11):
government-supported recruitmentof children.
Speaker 4 (40:16):
Yes, yes, it's.
You know it's a plant policywhat I'm talking about earlier,
and it's very dangerous policybecause how it works.
For example, we have somestories with our colleagues from
Charity Foundation and it'sstories from young man who right
(40:40):
now is a student of one of KievUniversity, but before that he
used to go for a school inoccupied Donetsk last nine years
, because Donetsk occupied from2014.
And he tells for us a lot aboutthese paramilitary movements,
(41:05):
about these programs.
For example, that one time theyespecially cut off in school
all Ukrainian books, especiallyabout world history and history
of Ukraine, and after that putfor them a book from Russia, a
special award, history fromRussia and history of Russia.
(41:27):
And they said, when you have 16, 17 years old, that you must go
to recruitment office but youknow it's recruitment office
under occupied administration toin future, future, to be in
Russian army.
So that's why it's how Russiangovernment try to forcibly put
(41:52):
these children from occupiedterritories to Russian army.
From my colleagues I know oneinteresting fact that, by
statistics, right now, intemporarily occupied territories
of Ukraine, 1,600,000 childrenfrom 0 to 18.
(42:16):
All these children under thisrisk, you know, and it's a very
dangerous situation right now.
Speaker 2 (42:24):
That's incredible.
So we've talked a lot aboutwhat the Russians are doing the
abduction of these children andthe indoctrination.
I'm struck by the fact there'sinfrastructure.
This is, I think, thedifference between a militant
group like the RUF in SierraLeone, which is sort of a rebel
force that's just grabbing kidsas they go and there's not sort
(42:46):
of a plan around it.
But this, I mean, there arekindergarten programs, there are
summer camp programs, there'slevels like there are levels of
school in the indoctrination ofthese children and that, I think
, is a very big difference inhow a state-sponsored government
can really have a terrifyingreach to reach these millions of
(43:11):
children in this way.
So I just want to offer theaudience a little bit of hope
and turn and talk a little bitabout the Ukrainian-led response
and frontline work,specifically leadership in the
Ukrainian government and in NGOsaround reunification efforts
that you're aware of.
What are the most promising andeffective initiatives that
(43:32):
you're seeing on the ground inhelping get these children back
home?
Speaker 4 (43:36):
Oh, thank you.
Especially, we have in generalpresident initiative it's called
Bring Back Kids UA.
Yes, and especially in thiswebsite they mentioned about
successful facts of come back inUkraine and children to home
(43:57):
from forcible deportation inRussia and another very
important project who arehelping to come back in children
to home is Save Ukraine NGO andI work, still working,
especially in Charity Foundation, east SOS source and they're
(44:30):
doing a lot not only to evacuatechildren from temporarily from
territories under frontline, youknow, because it's very
dangerous too, especially whenchildren staying in frontline
territories or under frontlinenot so far from battlefield,
it's very dangerous for thechildren too.
(45:05):
And especially we lot of work,what is still doing Ukrainian
government and Ukrainian NGOsand I think that Ukrainian NGOs
especially try to be very active, but especially sometimes it's
(45:27):
very hard to share thisinformation and these stories to
international society becausewe have not so many channels how
to share these stories andespecially, for example, we know
that, for a pity, russianpropaganda have a very strong
influence in different countriesand they have a lot of money, a
(45:51):
lot of channels.
Ukraine, for a pity, don't havethis resource, but we try to
connect with our internationalcolleagues and share this
information for them becauseit's very important.
Speaker 2 (46:08):
Yeah Well, and that's part of why we wanted to have
you on the show and that's agood kind of segue.
You've mentioned some NGOs andinitiatives in Ukraine and we'll
put some of that information inthe show notes so people can go
and look at those organizationsand find out more about how
they might support them.
(46:28):
Aside from direct fundingsupport, what do you hope that
the global community will do tohelp sustain and scale this work
in a sustainable and respectfulway?
What's your hope that peoplewho hear this will do?
Speaker 4 (46:50):
Thank you.
I think especially, first of all, it's helping to share this
information, because I know insome states, especially in some
countries, people have noinformation about this violation
against Ukrainian childrenBecause it's not a very popular
(47:13):
topic, it's a very hard topicand it's hard to advocate and
communicate these topics.
So that's why it's helping toshare this information.
Especially, another step isabout to ask international
colleagues from their governmenthow we could help in process to
(47:39):
come back these children tohome, because we know that
Russian officials don't want tocommunicate with Ukrainians to
come back these children to home.
So that's why maybe somecountries could help.
In this case, I thinkespecially USA could help,
(48:01):
especially when we're talkingabout some peace deals with
Russia.
It should be one of veryimportant point immediately
returning Ukrainian children tohome and especially it's
improving of internationalsanctions against Russian
(48:21):
officials, because in ourinvestigations we know about
some Russian governors, someRussian high quality officers,
you know, who are especiallyinvolved in this process, and if
after that, no global justicecould ask them why they do that,
(48:49):
it could be not effective, andso that's why we should have
some support from internationalcountries to improving
international sanctions againstofficials who are especially
involved in this process.
Speaker 2 (49:05):
I really appreciate that response.
I think people don'timmediately go to the.
I could tell people I couldshare this story, I could
advocate.
We even talked last week about.
You know, if you feelparticularly strongly, write
your congressman, write yoursenator, you know, express your
concern about this.
I think that even here in theUnited States, many people don't
(49:28):
know that this piece about thechildren specifically.
I think there is media aroundthe conflict itself, there's
Russia and Ukraine, but there'snot a lot of conversation about
the impact on children.
And I know one of the thingsthat I've heard Melody say or
(49:49):
we've said Melody is our bossand the sound engineer of this
podcast, but we've talked a lotabout how, in conflicts, in
wartime, the people who sufferthe most are the children, and
the reason they suffer isbecause they have no voice, they
have no power and they need usto advocate for them.
And so bringing that story tolight, helping people understand
(50:14):
the impact on the children, issomething that I think all of
our listeners can do.
All right.
So the last question that weask all of our guests on
optimistic voices um, and andthis question is particularly
poignant for me, after havingspent an hour talking with you,
v Vlad and talking abouthonestly what is one of the
(50:36):
hardest topics of conversationwe've had on the podcast, but I
think it makes it almost themost important question, and
that is, in the midst of all ofthis what is it that keeps you
optimistic and hopeful aboutyour work on behalf of these
children?
Speaker 4 (50:52):
Thank you.
Thank you especially forinviting me and to have a chance
to share this information toyour audience and to people.
What keeps me optimistic isthat we are talking about our
children.
I think it's not abstractinformation for me because, for
(51:17):
example, I am in my own fromDnipro region and Dnipro region
is closely for Donetsk region,donetsk region, a big part under
occupation, and I know what I'mtalking about.
It's very important for me.
Me because I know about thesechildren and I want to come back
(51:37):
to these children, to homeespecially, and I want to have a
chance that these childrengrowing up, especially in
Ukraine, and will be in future,good our people, our people, our
(52:00):
Ukrainian people, but not be avictim of violation from some
war criminals.
You know, and if I know thatI'm still working about these
issues, I don't think that it'sonly work, you know.
I think that it's maybe my partof mission because, especially
before work, I'm just doing myphd and I thinking about how I
(52:22):
could give an election, how Icould create in some articles
and books, but after that, ingeneral, a lot of this process
stop because I was thinking howI could be helpful, especially
for Ukrainian children, and thispart of work keeps me very
optimistic in this side.
Speaker 3 (52:44):
Well, thank you, vlad , and thank you so much for your
incredible work to researchthis, for being an advocate and
a voice for these issues and forsharing all of this information
with us.
And, as you said, I hope thatthose who are listening here
will also share what they'velearned today and continue to
spread the message so thatchange can happen.
Speaker 4 (53:06):
Thank you.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (53:09):
Yeah, and I just want to add to that it's been really
great to spend some time withyou today and last week, and we
don't normally, as guests, getto say what gives us hope at the
end of the podcast.
But I'll say from the bottom ofmy heart you give me hope in
this space.
Thank you, thank you.
Speaker 3 (53:27):
Thank you so much.
So thank you for joining ustoday on Optimistic Voices.
It is a big messy world outthere and there is no shortage
of need, but we here believethat with radical courage and
radical collaboration togetherwe can change the world.
So thank you all.
Speaker 1 (53:52):
Thanks for listening.
If you enjoyed this episode,please subscribe, share it with
others, post about it on socialmedia or leave a rating and
review.
To catch all the latest from us, you can find us at Helping
Children Worldwide on Instagram,linkedin, twitter and Facebook
Hashtag Optimistic VoicesPodcast.
Welcome to the Optimistic Voices podcast.
We're your hosts, Yasmin Vaughnand Laura Horka.
In this episode, we're going totalk to Vladislav Haverlov,
researcher and historian, on theissue impacting Ukrainian
children in the current war withRussia.
Many of our listeners arefamiliar with the history of
helping children worldwide andhow we got our start as an
(00:29):
orphanage launched in responseto an 11-year civil war in
Sierra Leone, which resulted inthousands of children being
separated from their families.
What we don't talk a lot aboutis a subset of children who were
kidnapped and forced toparticipate in the violence as
child soldiers during that war.
During the Sierra Leone CivilWar, which lasted from 1991 to
(00:49):
2002, the use of child soldiersbecame one of the most horrific
aspects of the conflict.
Armed groups, most notably theRevolutionary United Front, or
RUF, abducted thousands ofchildren, some as young as seven
years old, from their homes andtheir villages.
These children were forciblyconscripted, brutalized and
(01:10):
often forced to commitatrocities, including killing
family members.
In order to sever theiremotional ties and ensure
loyalty to their captors, Boyswere typically trained as
fighters.
Girls were subjected to sexualviolence and used as bushwives.
The widespread use of childsoldiers not only violated
international humanitarian law,but it also left a deep and
(01:33):
lasting impact on the childreninvolved, many of whom faced
immense psychological trauma andstruggled to reintegrate into
society after the war ended.
Speaker 3 (01:43):
Sadly, this practice is very common in conflict and
is currently rearing its uglyhead in another place around the
world.
In nearly every armed conflictsince the beginning of time,
children have participated informal or informal military
roles.
Every year, the US StateDepartment publishes a report
called Trafficking in Persons,which includes a list of foreign
(02:03):
governments identified duringthe previous year as having
governmental armed forces,police work or other security
forces that are recruiting andusing child soldiers.
On the list in 2024 wasAfghanistan, burma, cameroon,
central African Republic,democratic Republic of Congo,
iran, libya, mali, russia,rwanda, somalia, south Sudan,
(02:29):
sudan, syria, turkey, venezuelaand Yemen.
In today's episode, we are goingto be talking specifically
about Russia.
Russia's use of child soldiersis starkly highlighted in
Vladislav's recent article forGeorgetown University's
Collaborative on GlobalChildren's Issues, where he
detailed how abducted Ukrainianchildren are being deported,
(02:51):
ideologically re-educated andmilitarized.
This article speaks ofthousands of Ukrainian minors
that are forcibly transferredfrom occupied territories and
placed into so-called temporaryaccommodation centers in Russia,
where they are indoctrinatedthrough state-backed
paramilitary organizations.
Vladislav emphasizes that suchpractices abduction,
(03:15):
rucification and forced militarytraining constitute clear
violations of internationalhumanitarian law and underscore
a troubling pattern thesystematic recruitment of
children as instruments of war.
Speaker 2 (03:27):
Vlad is a Ukrainian historian and a religious
scholar based in Kyiv.
His research interests includethe history of mass deportations
in the Soviet era, stateconfessional relations, the
policy of the Catholic Churchduring World War II and the role
of Christian clergy in theHolocaust.
He's pursuing doctoral work onVatican policy during World War
II the role of Christian clergyin the Holocaust.
He's pursuing doctoral work onVatican policy during World War
(03:48):
II and he works with theInstitute of World History at
the National Academy of Sciencesin Ukraine, where he
specializes in the history ofinternational religious
relations in the 20th centuryand the study of genocide and
war crimes in Europe.
Vlad is an analyst at the MediaInitiative for Human Rights,
where he focuses on reporting oncrimes committed against
prisoners of war and civiliandetainees on the Russian
(04:10):
Federation's territory.
He is also an invited expertwith the charity foundation East
SOS, where he works to documentRussian war crimes against
Ukrainian children in theaftermath of the full-scale
Russian invasion.
He further serves as an advisorto the Child Deportation
Investigative Task Force atOSINT for Ukraine.
Vlad is a 2024-2025Collaborative Fellow with the
(04:35):
Collaborative on GlobalChildren's Issues at Georgetown
University, where he waspreviously a 2023-2024 Research
Fellow, and his work has focusedon the forcible transfer,
deportation, adoption andre-education of Ukrainian
children by Russia.
Vlad.
Welcome to the show.
Speaker 4 (04:54):
Thank you.
Thank you so much.
I'm very glad to see you all.
Speaker 3 (04:58):
To begin, I wonder if you can share a bit of world
history on children'sinvolvement in conflict settings
.
Speaker 4 (05:12):
Yes, thank you.
You know it's a very hard forunderstanding question because
if we're talking aboutespecially how many children are
involved during especially last2021 century in war conflict,
we could mention about more than400 million children in all
over the world involved andinjured from war conflict and
(05:38):
it's a global problem.
And you know especially aboutwhat you mentioned earlier,
about the problem with warcrimes against children in
Sierra Leone, in Rwanda, inAsian countries, and especially
what we know right now aboutRussian war crimes against
(06:02):
Ukrainian children.
And it should notice that it'snot only new practice, because
we know about especially a lotabout Soviet practice when from
west part of Ukraine and fromcentral part of Ukraine, people
with children and with adultpeople are forcibly deported,
(06:26):
that they're fighting againstSoviet regime and they're
deported to Siberia and to thenorthern Kazakhstan.
And in the last years we justinvestigated this problem as a
historian and we decided maybeit's only history, but you know
(06:50):
it's not only history.
It's happened right now again,it's happened after 2014, but
very forcible happened,especially after 24 February
2022.
It's a thousand of war crimes,what we know right now about
(07:13):
Russian officials who are doingthese crimes against Ukrainian
children and, for a pity, it'sour everyday reality right now.
Speaker 3 (07:24):
Yeah, so you mentioned this is not new, and I
think for those of us who havebeen with our organization for a
while, our desire to care forchildren who've lived through
trauma is something thatunderlies a lot of the work that
we do, and this is going totouch a very deep chord with
those who are listening.
We do, and this is going totouch a very deep chord with
(07:45):
those who are listening.
It is still been verysurprising to me to realize how
often this happens in conflicts.
Speaker 4 (07:58):
So why do you think that is the case?
If we're talking about warconflict, all in general, a lot
of soldiers who are trying tooccupy some territories, they
try to use children in theseoccupied territories and it's
different cases.
Sometimes they try to use thesechildren for helping in some
(08:22):
medicine cases, these childrenfor helping in some medicine
cases, some bodies.
They try to adopt thesechildren but sometimes in very
tragical cases they try togrowing up these children,
erased their identity andrecreating these children to
their future soldiers.
(08:43):
And it's a usual criminalpractice in different war
conflict, what we mentioned lasttime.
Speaker 3 (08:52):
So can you help our listeners understand the scale
of what's happening right now inRussia?
What do we know, what do we notknow yet about the abduction
and militarization of Ukrainianchildren by Russian forces?
Speaker 4 (09:09):
Yes, you know, after 24 February 2022, when Russia
officials, russian president,decided to occupy Ukraine and
Russian troops occupied land byland of Ukrainian regions.
They after that, forcibledeported children to Russia,
(09:36):
especially from occupiedterritories.
From my investigation I knowthat it started not only 24
February.
Some cases happened, especiallyfrom 2014.
From occupied Crimea, theycreating, like a train,
(09:59):
evacuation trains, so-calledevacuation trains, and remove
children from occupied Crimeaterritories to Siberia, to Far
East and to another differentregions of Russia.
But in 2022, it's moremass-stabbing this process and
more mass this process.
(10:21):
And what we mentioned is that,especially from occupied
territories of Luhansk andDonetsk region of Ukraine, in 19
February 2022, before a weekfor full-scale invasion, they're
creating for future evacuationtrains and evacuation bus and
(10:48):
after that they removed someadults and especially children
from occupied territory ofLuhansk region to Russian region
near Ukrainian border.
It's Rostov region of Russia,belgorod region of Russia,
voronezh region of Russia.
(11:09):
And after that they createdlike a temporary accommodation
centers and they replaced inthis temporary accommodation
centers, especially Ukrainianchildren from occupied
territories.
And we mentioned that thesetemporarily accommodation
(11:30):
centers, it's a lot of thesecenters in especially Russia
territory.
It's maybe 60, 70, nobody knowsclearly number about that
because they every day try toremove children in these centers
and after that removed in nextplaces far away from Ukrainian
(11:55):
border, and this is a problemfor what we have after full
scale invasion with Russia.
Speaker 3 (12:03):
And so it's likely that this has been going on for
a while, but really the massivemovement of this began in 2022,
and the children being deportedin trains and on buses, but
constantly being moved around inthese temporary accommodation
centers as well, so that they'renot staying in a stable place.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
Well, and that makes it impossible Sorry, yes, it
makes it impossible to keeptrack of them and for Ukraine to
know where they wind up.
Speaker 3 (12:33):
Yeah, yeah, wow.
So in your article, you writeabout the legal and moral
dimensions of these crimes.
So why do you think it isessential to frame this as a war
crime rather than a simplehumanitarian crisis, which is
how Russia is framing this?
Speaker 4 (12:53):
Yes, you know it's considered with an evaluation
against Ukrainian children.
But it's war crimes becauseit's crimes against Geneva
Convention and it's crimes thathave effects of crimes against
humanity.
And war crimes because nobodyhas a chance to forcibly deport
(13:23):
children from their native landto another country, especially
if it's a country of occupiers,because Russian troops occupied
these territories and especiallydeported these children to
Russia.
And if Ukrainian side tried tocommunicate with Russia side and
(13:44):
said from them if you have somelist of these children, maybe
you have name and surname ofthese children they have no
connection with Russian sidebecause they don't want to give
for Ukraine this information andespecially these facts
mentioned, that it's a war crimebecause it's a planned policy
(14:08):
to forcibly deport a thousand ofUkrainian children from their
native land to Russia territoryand that's why it's a big and
massive war crimes from last,maybe I don't know how many
years from last, how many years,yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (14:34):
So this isn't an instance of refugees being taken
in by another nation during aconflict setting.
We're talking about forcibledeportation by the occupying
force, not communicating withUkraine about who these children
(14:56):
are, where they are, where theycame from, and all of that.
So it is a violation of GenevaConventions, not a not a simple
matter of a country taking inrefugees, and you also
constitute it as a plannedpolicy.
This isn't by accident thatthis is happening.
Speaker 2 (15:16):
Well, and to that point I think a lot of your work
, vlad, has focused on how thisis a tactic that Russia has used
in the past.
Can you share a little bit ofthe history of Russia's
paramilitary training and theindoctrination of children that
they've done sort ofhistorically?
Speaker 4 (15:35):
Yes, you know, from 2016 in Russia Federation they
founded a paramilitary movement,more largest paramilitary
movement from last time.
It's called Young Army and it'sYoung Army created by
(15:55):
ex-minister of defense SergeiShoigu, and they try to educate
children from 8 to 16 years oldin paramilitary side and
especially before full-scaleinvasion, most of branches of
(16:16):
this movement existed only inRussia Federation, but after
full-scale invasion they creatednew branches, especially new
occupied territories, and thesebranches were founded especially
in Donetsk, in Luhansk, inoccupied Melitopol, in occupied
(16:37):
Mariupol and occupied Hynichesk,berdyansk all of the city.
For a pity, right now, underRussian occupation, they created
this new branch of of a youngarmy and they try to join for
this paramilitary movement,especially children from
(16:58):
occupied territories.
Maybe we could compare it,because it's a very aggressive
movement, you know.
We could compare it withespecially Hitlerjugend, because
we know about effects, realeffects, with photo with surname
(17:21):
of children who are especiallygrowing up in young army, last
four or five years ago and, fora pity, they've been killed,
especially in Russian armies.
When they join after theyalready have 18 years old.
(17:43):
They join two Russian forcesand fighting against Ukraine.
It's a circumstance of thisparamilitary education, because
Russian officials and officersbrainwashed a lot of years their
mind and after that they joinedthe Russian army and fought
(18:09):
against Ukraine.
So that's why it's a verydangerous movement.
But what I want to mention isthat it's not only one movement
in occupied territories, becauseRussia is creating movements
for all ages of children.
If you are very small children,you could connect for Eagles of
(18:31):
Russia.
It's like from kindergarten age.
After that you could join theyoung guard, after that you
could join the young army.
It's like a structure,structure of reeducational
process, structure ofparamilitary organization which
(18:54):
tried to catch all of young agein occupied territories and,
especially after that part ofthe children, tried to deport to
Russia territory and growing upafter that these children,
especially in Russia territory.
Speaker 2 (19:14):
It's honestly so shocking to me the idea of these
children being indoctrinatedfrom very young ages and that
that indoctrination just a yearover year over year over year in
these indoctrination camps.
You speak of the young armyhaving started in 2016 but now,
of course, spreading since theoccupation and new camps you
(19:36):
know, springing up everywhere,but the thought of you know, now
we have a kindergarten programso we can begin that
indoctrination as early aspossible, and then these
children who are Ukrainian havetheir identities erased and
their culture taken from them,their connection to their home
country, and then end up, willend up.
(19:58):
If you know, Russia has its wayin conscripting them and
fighting against their owncountrymen in this conflict.
It's a horrifying, it's just ahorrifying thing.
Horrifying, it's just ahorrifying thing.
Can you walk us through whattypically happens to a child
like sort of?
Take us through a timeline of achild who gets deported from
(20:22):
Ukraine to Russia?
Speaker 4 (20:36):
what those rehabilitation camps and
temporary accommodation centersactually look like on the ground
.
Yes, you know, especially afirst stage of this criminal
process it's when, especially,they're taking children to bus
or taking these children toevacuation train.
In some cases they're takingthese children with parents, in
some cases without parents,especially orphans, and after
(20:56):
that they must have some processin filtration camps.
It's in a border with occupiedterritories of Ukraine and
Russia.
After filtration camps they areremoved to temporary
(21:17):
accommodation centers, temporaryaccommodation centers in
general.
It's a kindergarten,ex-kindergarten, it's a hostel
for students from Soviet time.
If you try to find, for example,information about these
(21:39):
temporary accommodation centersit's so hard because Russia
officials not silly, they don'thave this name.
Temporary accommodation centersit's like not very official
information, they don't havethis name.
Temporary Accommodation Centersit's like not very official
information.
But if you analyze a lot ofopen sources you could find this
(22:03):
information that, for example,children from Temporary
Accommodation Centers,especially they hold from
so-called Donetsk People'sRepublic, especially they hold
from so-called Donetsk People'sRepublic, forcibly deported to
Rostov from a hostel forstudents and it's more than 100
(22:24):
children about like healthyrecreation centers and slash
summer camps, flowers in Rostovregion and it's usually summer
camps from Soviet time, butright now in these summer camps
(22:50):
they have a lot of children fromoccupied Donetsk region and
every time they try tore-educate these children and
sometimes they try to put forthem Russian documents and cut
especially Ukrainian documents.
And it's how these temporaryaccommodation centers work on
(23:11):
the ground.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
It almost sounds when you're describing like when you
say a hostel, and it has kindof a school component.
It sounds like a boardingschool almost or an orphanage
with an education piece orsomething like that.
I think our listeners are goingto be surprised to hear that
some of these families like thefirst stage of this abduction is
(23:37):
sometimes the parents are takenas well and sometimes you know
it's just the orphans.
How are children and familiesbeing targeted?
So I think our listeners,because they're familiar with
this sort of orphanage story,because that's in our background
and so they understand, I think, intuitively, that an orphan,
(23:59):
somebody separated from a family, is particularly vulnerable.
But how did Russia target notjust orphans but also children
who have living parents thatthey were perhaps living with,
like?
What tactics did they use tolegitimize or disguise their
abductions and make them seemlike they were something else?
Speaker 4 (24:18):
Yes, thank you, especially if we're talking
about children who have parents,in some cases occupied
administration.
It's like a Russian, notespecially official Russian
administration.
It's like a Russian, notespecially official Russian
administration, but it'scollaborators with Russian
(24:39):
administrators in occupiedterritories.
They come to families and saidyou know, it's very dangerous in
this place and you should onlysend your children to summer
camps for recreation, forrehabilitation.
After that parents asked thesepeople about where are our
(25:04):
children and they said you knowyou have no chance, especially
to come back in right now, thechildren to home, because it's
very dangerous in these places.
And if you want you must go toRussia and try to come back in
with your own the children tohome, but if you don't want,
(25:25):
they will be staying in Russiafor the end of war.
It's one case.
Another case it's very tragicwith orphans.
Why very tragic?
Because they have no connectionwith Ukrainian side.
It's orphans, it's a very hardquestion and they only put these
(25:50):
children from orphans andremoved these children to
Russian orphanage.
And that's all I know about onecase from Kherson region One
head of orphan centers tried tosave children and he saved these
(26:17):
children in his home after thatin church, but for a pity,
russian soldiers found thesechildren and after that deported
these, this shooting to Russia,and so it's one of cases, how
it works, and maybe I want toshare for you stories about one
(26:43):
man from Mariupol cityespecially.
He has three children and onetime Russian officials forcibly
deported him with children toRussia, but they're staying him
(27:03):
in filtration camps because theyfind photos with Ukrainian
uniform from Ukrainian army,ukrainian uniform from Ukrainian
army, and children especiallydeported far away to Moscow
region to orphanage, and he hasonly small chance to connect
(27:24):
with his children and if infuture he don't go for his
children and come back in thischildren to home, russian
families could adopt hischildren.
And it's very tragical storiesbut it's a reality, what we know
(27:52):
, for example, from our evidence, it's a real story, what I'm
talking about.
Speaker 2 (28:00):
That's really heartbreaking.
I know in our own stories wesee a lot of parents who become
convinced by corrupt orphanageleaders that their children know
there are correct orphanageactors who will then deport
(28:27):
those you know, send thosechildren out for international
adoption or, you know, and theunsuspecting family doesn't, you
know, lose this track of theirchild forever.
So it's not surprising to me,it's heartbreaking to me to hear
of someone like this man who isyou know, he's got his three
children and then they're takeninto an orphanage and he has the
(28:50):
chance of losing them to aRussian family forever.
So, yeah, that's veryheartbreaking.
So we talk a lot about this sortof the ways in which your
article talks, a lot about theways in which Russia sort of is
taking these children, isreeducating them, moving them
(29:12):
from place to place to place toplace, changing their names,
erasing their sort of Ukrainianidentity.
Obviously, orphans that comeout of orphanages oftentimes
(29:32):
there's not documentation thatfollows them, birth certificates
and things that connect them totheir families, to people in
Ukraine, but even now, childrenthat have been taken from
families, russia is erasingtheir names and erasing their
identity.
And so what are the biggestrisks for the children if these
crimes are not being properlydocumented now Because, as
you're saying, russia is tellingone story to the world and
violating Geneva Conventions by,you know, not doing things in
(29:55):
terms of tracing kids andkeeping them connected to their
families and to Ukraine the waythat they're supposed to.
Speaker 4 (30:02):
Yes, thank you.
You know, for my mind, it's aglobal risk for these children
to become future just Russiancitizens.
Why it could work?
Because with my colleagues,especially not far away, we have
(30:25):
a meeting and we discussedabout, especially, how many
children are successfullyreturned to Ukraine right now.
And especially, we know aboutofficial numbers of identified
children yes, 19,546.
And from these numbers numbers,after three years of full-scale
(30:47):
invasion force successfullyreturned only 1,366.
And if you could thinking aboutthat, you you should mention
that it's maybe just a fewhundred children per year and if
(31:12):
this process will be so slowly,we must have 50 years to come
back these children to home.
It's not effective becauseafter that they're growing up in
Russia and it's a risk thatafter these years they said to
us we don't want to come backinto Ukraine.
Speaker 2 (31:35):
You know, and it's a global risk for these children,
for my mind, yeah, so when wetalked last week as we were
preparing for this episode, Isaid to you that in my mind it's
a kind of genocide.
It's a way of erasing wholechunks of Ukraine just by
(31:57):
re-educating well,indoctrinating these children
and making them Russian andturning them into soldiers, and
I think that word is probablyshocking.
It's probably not what I thinkour listeners may be thinking,
(32:19):
but I think that's a fairassessment.
Speaker 4 (32:23):
Yes, yes, I especially agree with you
because it's some things that weshould mention, that it's a
kind of genocide Because,especially if you're talking
about plant policy, to arise anidentity about plant policy, not
(32:45):
to come back in the childrenever for Ukraine it's especially
what you're talking about.
Speaker 3 (32:51):
Yes, and, not to mention, it's a violation of the
UN Conventions on the Rights ofa Child, which is to have a
right to their own culture andlanguage and people group.
Yeah, in terms of otherconventions that are being
violated here we spoke a littlebit about the Geneva Conventions
(33:12):
and I was wondering if youcould elaborate a little bit
more on some of the conventionsfor children who are displaced
and provide some more context asto what efforts Russia has made
towards reuniting them and thethings that they have not done
that are violations.
Speaker 4 (33:35):
Yes, you know, it's several violations against
Geneva Conventions and againstthe Rome Statute and against the
Rome Statute, especiallybecause you know, especially the
49th article of the GenevaConvention.
You have no chance to deportpeople from one ethnic group to
(34:12):
another in a war, conflict,conflict, and especially another
article mentioned about that.
If you are talking aboutevacuation, you should
immediately inform nativecountry with list of people who
are evacuated from you, from you, and especially places where
they are situated, especiallyindividual names, surnames of
(34:33):
these people.
But Russian officials don'twant to do that and especially
it's a global problem and it's aseveral violation against
Geneva Convention, against RomeStatute, against some acts of
crimes against humanity.
It's something that could becharacters of genocide.
(34:57):
They're doing all of thisviolation in their policy all of
this violation in in theirpolicy.
Speaker 3 (35:09):
So, with this being clear violations, you spoke
about russia as a humanitarian.
You know crisis not as a warcrime, but how is it that they
are, uh, characterizing it thatway?
Speaker 4 (35:22):
uh About humanitarian crisis.
Yeah, yes.
Yes, you know, I think it's formy mind, maybe for my
investigation, but it's alogical fact.
You know, especially some ofRussian officials in their
speech talking about a very bigdemographic crisis in Russia and
(35:48):
it could be one of the reasonswhy they forcibly deported
Ukrainian children and don'twant to share information about
them and especially this problemcreating a humanitarian crisis
to Ukraine too.
Creating a humanitarian crisisto Ukraine too, because you know
(36:11):
, we lost a million of peoplefor a pity last year, because
some people were killed for apity.
Some people escaped against warabroad yes, to another country
and nobody knows about theirfuture decisions, if they want
(36:31):
to come back into Ukraine or notto come back in Ukraine ever.
And plus to it, we have thisproblem with these violations
when Russia tried to speciallystolen from Ukraine thousands of
children.
For Ukraine, it's a bighumanitarian crisis, but I think
(36:53):
for Russian side, they have ahumanitarian crisis too, but
especially with demographysituation, and it's considered
especially in far regions ofRussia, especially in the Far
East, in Siberia.
So that's why it's very logicalwhen we find especially
(37:13):
temporary accommodation centersin Siberia and in the Far East
for a pity, why they do that?
Because they want to stay thesechildren in these places and
not to come back these childrento home.
Speaker 3 (37:30):
And is there a window of opportunity for this?
What happens to these childrenif too much time goes by without
proper identification?
Speaker 4 (37:50):
identification.
Yes, you know russian officialscreated a very strong program
what they want to do with thesechildren and we, for a pity,
have not so many time what wecould do with that because,
especially every time, what I'mtalking to you about earlier,
they have a several branch ofparamilitary organization.
They have a several branch ofsummer camps.
(38:12):
In summer camps they have withthem another lessons like
Russian patriotism especially.
They try to explain for thesechildren that it's especially
mentioned that it's not waragainst ukraine, it's war
(38:34):
against usa, against youreuropean countries, because all
these countries want to destroyit, especially russia, and you
must be on Russia's side.
It's a lot of these propagandalessons for these children and
it's what is more dangerous thatit's child mind.
(38:54):
You know they have no skillsfor a piteous right now to
compare some facts, facts, andit's very hard for them.
And if we not identify thesechildren for a few years, we
(39:15):
have a very big risk to lostthese children.
Yes, and especially why we dothis work?
Because it's very big risk tolost these children.
Speaker 3 (39:26):
Yeah, so the the window of opportunity is really,
um, it's very small becausechildren's minds are so easily
influenced and the more timethat passes, the more of that
indoctrination.
Education has a an opportunityto take hold.
Also spoke a little bit aboutabout when we talked earlier
(39:46):
this week about the use ofchildren as combatants by
militant groups versus the useof children by governments.
Why is it that you think that'san important distinction to
make?
You know guerrilla groups ornon-government-backed groups
having an uprising that recruitschildren versus
(40:11):
government-supported recruitmentof children.
Speaker 4 (40:16):
Yes, yes, it's.
You know it's a plant policywhat I'm talking about earlier,
and it's very dangerous policybecause how it works.
For example, we have somestories with our colleagues from
Charity Foundation and it'sstories from young man who right
(40:40):
now is a student of one of KievUniversity, but before that he
used to go for a school inoccupied Donetsk last nine years
, because Donetsk occupied from2014.
And he tells for us a lot aboutthese paramilitary movements,
(41:05):
about these programs.
For example, that one time theyespecially cut off in school
all Ukrainian books, especiallyabout world history and history
of Ukraine, and after that putfor them a book from Russia, a
special award, history fromRussia and history of Russia.
(41:27):
And they said, when you have 16, 17 years old, that you must go
to recruitment office but youknow it's recruitment office
under occupied administration toin future, future, to be in
Russian army.
So that's why it's how Russiangovernment try to forcibly put
(41:52):
these children from occupiedterritories to Russian army.
From my colleagues I know oneinteresting fact that, by
statistics, right now, intemporarily occupied territories
of Ukraine, 1,600,000 childrenfrom 0 to 18.
(42:16):
All these children under thisrisk, you know, and it's a very
dangerous situation right now.
Speaker 2 (42:24):
That's incredible.
So we've talked a lot aboutwhat the Russians are doing the
abduction of these children andthe indoctrination.
I'm struck by the fact there'sinfrastructure.
This is, I think, thedifference between a militant
group like the RUF in SierraLeone, which is sort of a rebel
force that's just grabbing kidsas they go and there's not sort
(42:46):
of a plan around it.
But this, I mean, there arekindergarten programs, there are
summer camp programs, there'slevels like there are levels of
school in the indoctrination ofthese children and that, I think
, is a very big difference inhow a state-sponsored government
can really have a terrifyingreach to reach these millions of
(43:11):
children in this way.
So I just want to offer theaudience a little bit of hope
and turn and talk a little bitabout the Ukrainian-led response
and frontline work,specifically leadership in the
Ukrainian government and in NGOsaround reunification efforts
that you're aware of.
What are the most promising andeffective initiatives that
(43:32):
you're seeing on the ground inhelping get these children back
home?
Speaker 4 (43:36):
Oh, thank you.
Especially, we have in generalpresident initiative it's called
Bring Back Kids UA.
Yes, and especially in thiswebsite they mentioned about
successful facts of come back inUkraine and children to home
(43:57):
from forcible deportation inRussia and another very
important project who arehelping to come back in children
to home is Save Ukraine NGO andI work, still working,
especially in Charity Foundation, east SOS source and they're
(44:30):
doing a lot not only to evacuatechildren from temporarily from
territories under frontline, youknow, because it's very
dangerous too, especially whenchildren staying in frontline
territories or under frontlinenot so far from battlefield,
it's very dangerous for thechildren too.
(45:05):
And especially we lot of work,what is still doing Ukrainian
government and Ukrainian NGOsand I think that Ukrainian NGOs
especially try to be very active, but especially sometimes it's
(45:27):
very hard to share thisinformation and these stories to
international society becausewe have not so many channels how
to share these stories andespecially, for example, we know
that, for a pity, russianpropaganda have a very strong
influence in different countriesand they have a lot of money, a
(45:51):
lot of channels.
Ukraine, for a pity, don't havethis resource, but we try to
connect with our internationalcolleagues and share this
information for them becauseit's very important.
Speaker 2 (46:08):
Yeah Well, and that's part of why we wanted to have
you on the show and that's agood kind of segue.
You've mentioned some NGOs andinitiatives in Ukraine and we'll
put some of that information inthe show notes so people can go
and look at those organizationsand find out more about how
they might support them.
(46:28):
Aside from direct fundingsupport, what do you hope that
the global community will do tohelp sustain and scale this work
in a sustainable and respectfulway?
What's your hope that peoplewho hear this will do?
Speaker 4 (46:50):
Thank you.
I think especially, first of all, it's helping to share this
information, because I know insome states, especially in some
countries, people have noinformation about this violation
against Ukrainian childrenBecause it's not a very popular
(47:13):
topic, it's a very hard topicand it's hard to advocate and
communicate these topics.
So that's why it's helping toshare this information.
Especially, another step isabout to ask international
colleagues from their governmenthow we could help in process to
(47:39):
come back these children tohome, because we know that
Russian officials don't want tocommunicate with Ukrainians to
come back these children to home.
So that's why maybe somecountries could help.
In this case, I thinkespecially USA could help,
(48:01):
especially when we're talkingabout some peace deals with
Russia.
It should be one of veryimportant point immediately
returning Ukrainian children tohome and especially it's
improving of internationalsanctions against Russian
(48:21):
officials, because in ourinvestigations we know about
some Russian governors, someRussian high quality officers,
you know, who are especiallyinvolved in this process, and if
after that, no global justicecould ask them why they do that,
(48:49):
it could be not effective, andso that's why we should have
some support from internationalcountries to improving
international sanctions againstofficials who are especially
involved in this process.
Speaker 2 (49:05):
I really appreciate that response.
I think people don'timmediately go to the.
I could tell people I couldshare this story, I could
advocate.
We even talked last week about.
You know, if you feelparticularly strongly, write
your congressman, write yoursenator, you know, express your
concern about this.
I think that even here in theUnited States, many people don't
(49:28):
know that this piece about thechildren specifically.
I think there is media aroundthe conflict itself, there's
Russia and Ukraine, but there'snot a lot of conversation about
the impact on children.
And I know one of the thingsthat I've heard Melody say or
(49:49):
we've said Melody is our bossand the sound engineer of this
podcast, but we've talked a lotabout how, in conflicts, in
wartime, the people who sufferthe most are the children, and
the reason they suffer isbecause they have no voice, they
have no power and they need usto advocate for them.
And so bringing that story tolight, helping people understand
(50:14):
the impact on the children, issomething that I think all of
our listeners can do.
All right.
So the last question that weask all of our guests on
optimistic voices um, and andthis question is particularly
poignant for me, after havingspent an hour talking with you,
v Vlad and talking abouthonestly what is one of the
(50:36):
hardest topics of conversationwe've had on the podcast, but I
think it makes it almost themost important question, and
that is, in the midst of all ofthis what is it that keeps you
optimistic and hopeful aboutyour work on behalf of these
children?
Speaker 4 (50:52):
Thank you.
Thank you especially forinviting me and to have a chance
to share this information toyour audience and to people.
What keeps me optimistic isthat we are talking about our
children.
I think it's not abstractinformation for me because, for
(51:17):
example, I am in my own fromDnipro region and Dnipro region
is closely for Donetsk region,donetsk region, a big part under
occupation, and I know what I'mtalking about.
It's very important for me.
Me because I know about thesechildren and I want to come back
(51:37):
to these children, to homeespecially, and I want to have a
chance that these childrengrowing up, especially in
Ukraine, and will be in future,good our people, our people, our
(52:00):
Ukrainian people, but not be avictim of violation from some
war criminals.
You know, and if I know thatI'm still working about these
issues, I don't think that it'sonly work, you know.
I think that it's maybe my partof mission because, especially
before work, I'm just doing myphd and I thinking about how I
(52:22):
could give an election, how Icould create in some articles
and books, but after that, ingeneral, a lot of this process
stop because I was thinking howI could be helpful, especially
for Ukrainian children, and thispart of work keeps me very
optimistic in this side.
Speaker 3 (52:44):
Well, thank you, vlad , and thank you so much for your
incredible work to researchthis, for being an advocate and
a voice for these issues and forsharing all of this information
with us.
And, as you said, I hope thatthose who are listening here
will also share what they'velearned today and continue to
spread the message so thatchange can happen.
Speaker 4 (53:06):
Thank you.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (53:09):
Yeah, and I just want to add to that it's been really
great to spend some time withyou today and last week, and we
don't normally, as guests, getto say what gives us hope at the
end of the podcast.
But I'll say from the bottom ofmy heart you give me hope in
this space.
Thank you, thank you.
Speaker 3 (53:27):
Thank you so much.
So thank you for joining ustoday on Optimistic Voices.
It is a big messy world outthere and there is no shortage
of need, but we here believethat with radical courage and
radical collaboration togetherwe can change the world.
So thank you all.
Speaker 1 (53:52):
Thanks for listening.
If you enjoyed this episode,please subscribe, share it with
others, post about it on socialmedia or leave a rating and
review.
To catch all the latest from us, you can find us at Helping
Children Worldwide on Instagram,linkedin, twitter and Facebook
Hashtag Optimistic VoicesPodcast.
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