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June 6, 2025 57 mins

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The global movement to transition children from orphanages to families is gaining momentum, but significant challenges remain. In this thought-provoking episode, David Titus Moussa hosts a conversation with Stephen Usembe, a care leaver and founder of Kenya Society of Care Leavers, and Phil Aspergren, executive director of Casa Viva in Costa Rica, as they unpack key insights from the recent Rising Tide Conference.

Stephen shares his unique perspective as someone who grew up in institutional care, emphasizing the critical need for research and data to drive meaningful policy change. "When we know better, we have a responsibility to do better," he reminds us, highlighting how institutions isolate while families embrace. The experts discuss how poverty, misguided funding models, and entrenched attitudes continue to separate vulnerable children from families that could care for them with proper support.

Phil recounts a powerful story of transformation: when 26 adolescents in a well-run children's home were asked what they wanted most, every single one answered, "I want to live in a family." This led to a complete transition from institutional care to family placements for all 26 youth—proving that change is possible even in challenging circumstances. He challenges listeners who support orphanages not to withdraw funding, but instead to use their influence to ask important questions and encourage transition toward family-based solutions.

The conversation explores practical strategies for redirecting resources, changing mindsets (particularly within North American churches), and creating stronger collaboration between governments and organizations. Rather than focusing on improving orphanages, the experts advocate prioritizing family-based alter

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A bible study for groups and individuals, One Twenty-Seven: The Widow and the Orphan by Dr Andrea Siegel explores the themes of the first chapter of James, and in particular, 1:27. In James, we learn of our duty to the vulnerable in the historical context of the author. Order here or digital download

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Episode Transcript

Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
Welcome to Optimistic Voices, a podcast of helping
children worldwide.
We help children worldwide bystrengthening and empowering
families and communities.
This podcast is for peopleinterested in deep conversations
with thought leaders in thefields of child welfare, global

(00:36):
health and internationalmissions.

Speaker 2 (00:41):
Welcome to the Optimistic Voices podcast.
I'm one of your regular hosts,dr Laura Horvath, but today I
get to take a backseat and spendsome time in the audience while
my friend and colleague, davidTitus Moussa guest hosts this
episode.
Welcome, david, it's great tohave you here.

Speaker 4 (00:58):
Thanks very much for having me, Laura.

Speaker 2 (01:01):
I will take a minute to introduce David a little bit
before handing the microphoneover.
David Moussa is the SeniorConsultant for Reintegration at
the Child Reintegration Centerin Beau, Sierra Leone.
But he's also a recognizedthought leader in child welfare
and specifically, in thetransition of residential
children's homes and orphanagesto family-based care models

(01:24):
across the continent of Africa.

Speaker 4 (01:26):
Thank you once more again, laura.
This year's Rising Tide broughttogether top leaders from a
number of different countries inthe global north and the global
south for a deep-diveconversation on how to continue
to grow the impact of transitionsupport services globally.
With us today is Stephen Usembe, a professional social worker

(01:50):
with skills, knowledge andexperience working with children
and young people withoutparental care and vulnerable
families.
Stephen is a care leaverhimself, having grown in an
orphanage in Kenya, and is afounder of Kenya Society of Care
Leavers, now serving as theregional advocacy manager for

(02:12):
open homes for children.
Phil Aspergren is the executivedirector of Casa Viva.
He and his wife, jill,co-founded the initiative in
2003 and continue to serve asdirectors.
In 2005, they launched CasaViva, costa Rica.
Casa Viva seeks to expand thespectrum of alternatives for

(02:36):
children who've been separatedfrom their biological families
through reunification, nationaladoption and short or long-term
family-based foster care.
Yes, at the Rising Tide, weknow we had a lot of discussion
points, but we have more todiscuss.
So, from you guys, what did youwish had been included in the

(03:00):
discussions that we didn't getto, in the discussions that we
didn't?

Speaker 5 (03:06):
get to.
Yeah, thanks, thanks, david.
The discussions, I mean we had,you know, two days to discuss.
You know two decades ofexperiences and all that.
So I feel like we did.
I mean, within that short timewe discussed a lot, but I feel

(03:28):
like we touched briefly onresearch and this is a
conversation that needs, youknow, deeper exploration In many
countries.
You know the lack of robust, youknow, research continues to
hinder, you know, the efforts todrive this meaningful change.
So, without solid datainfluencing policy and shifting

(03:48):
perspectives, our times becomesmuch harder.
So the question is, you know,how do we support and strengthen
research to build an undeniablecase for reform?
And beyond that, we must also,you know, center the voices of
children and young people withlived experiences.

(04:08):
You know, collective effortsthey're not just, let me say,
passive recipients of care, butI believe that they are active
participants, you know, activeagents of the change that you
want to see.
You know, by truly listening tothem, we don't just improve our

(04:30):
interventions, we improvepolicies and standards.
We also foster trust, you know,and accountability, ensuring
that, you know, the solutions weadvocate for genuinely actually
meet their needs.
So, at the heart of all this, Ithink it's a simple truth that

(04:52):
change is most powerful whenit's informed by evidence and
driven by the people it's meantto serve.
So I still feel like and it's ahuge challenge within the region
because participation know,participation, especially, you
know, child participation,especially for children, you
know, involving children isstill still, we still have a

(05:16):
long way to go to involve, youknow, children who are in care.
But you know, those two, two,two things I feel like were not

(05:37):
adequately addressed but, as Isay, I feel like you know we
only had two days.
As I say, I feel like you knowwe only had two days.

Speaker 6 (05:47):
Yeah Over to you, phil.
Yeah, stephen, thank you forthose comments, and you know I
already had mentioned earlier inthis podcast listening to the
children and the importance ofit, and then to hear you talk
about listening to the voices ofchildren and young people with
lived care experience isdifferent, because that is you.
You were a person who have acare experience.

(06:11):
You spent part of yourchildhood living in a children's
home and so that's powerful tohear from you and a powerful
reminder that we need to includethose voices.
You know, as one of the topicsthat I think would be important
to include or, you know, tofocus perhaps a future Rising

(06:32):
Tides conference on, would behow we can shift the mindset of
the North American church, theNorth American Christian, both
Protestant and Catholic.
We've talked about howwell-intentioned people have
actually led to the separationof children from their own
biological families.

(06:53):
Last week I was in a meetingwith a missions pastor at a
church who grew up in EasternAfrica and I was talking to her.
She told me about her childhoodvery briefly and I was
explaining what we were doingand talking about children's
homes and the impact they haveon children and how there's

(07:16):
different ways we can do this.
And all of a sudden she pausedand said when I was eight years
old, my brother dropped me offat an orphanage and he stayed
with my mother and I stayed inthat orphanage.
When I was eight years old, mybrother dropped me off at an
orphanage and he stayed with mymother and I stayed in that
orphanage until I was 17.
And here she was working as amission pastor in the United
States of America and I didn'trealize that care leaver

(07:40):
experience that she had.
Wow, how can North Americanchurches come to understand the
impact of separating childrenfrom family?
How can we help them see thatand make transitions?
You know, unfortunately, whatwe're seeing is for every

(08:01):
children's home that begins aprocess of transformation, of
expanding their care options.
We're seeing new children'shome that begins a process of
transformation, of expandingtheir care options.
We're seeing new children'shome projects being started.
We're seeing new children'shomes being built, and I have a
meeting coming up here with anorganization that is actively
building a children's home witha mall, a shopping mall that

(08:25):
will be part of theirself-sustaining plan, which is
very typical for children'shomes to include some type of
self-sustainability plan in thedream.
But how can we reach the NorthAmerican church, particularly
that continues to not only fundongoing orphanages but also to

(08:47):
start new projects?
That would be a huge topic toaddress in future Rising Tide
conferences, david.

Speaker 4 (08:56):
Yeah, thank you, stephen.
It's really a key topicshifting the mindset and that
goes a long way because, beingwith government and other
stakeholders, we need to reallyemphasize on shifting the
mindset and that's the only waythey can buy into the ideas of,
you know, working with thosealongside colleague

(09:21):
organizations.
Well, thank you very much.
So, thinking of challenges andsolutions in transition care
what is care to family-basedcare?
From your experience, stephen?

Speaker 5 (09:46):
Yeah, challenges, yes , one of the biggest challenges
is, of course, funding and youknow money can be part of the
solution.
It's not the only solution.
Money has also been thechallenge because it has also

(10:11):
driven the industry.
It has incentivized quite manyand scrupulous people to
actually start these orphanages.
But, you know, as long asfinancial support continues to
flow into the orphanage modelagain, it remains an incentive,

(10:32):
especially in contexts whereoversight and, you know,
regulation of child protectionsystems are weak.
You know, without intention orredirection of resources,
institutional care will persist,even when you know without
intentional redirection ofresources, institutional care
will persist, even when you knowbetter alternatives exist.
So I feel like you know moneyis the problem.

(10:54):
It is also the solution becauseit's sort of you can
incentivize change with you knowresources, with you know
resources, you know.
The second challenge is one ofattitude.
I feel like some children areviewed as fundamentally
different to see if they deservea separate, you know, standard
of care, whether due to poverty,disability or other

(11:18):
circumstances.
So these perceptions feelharmful systems that keep
children separated from families, you know, instead of
strengthening the support neededto keep them together.
And I would say you knowstrikingly many people pose
orphanages, you know, in theirown countries but continue to

(11:39):
find them elsewhere, oftenunaware of the long-term
consequences.
You know, something that Phildid mention earlier.
So, and then there is poverty,you know, linked up with you
know finances, you know, are themost relentless.
I would say it's one of themost relentless barriers.

(12:00):
Extreme poverty leaves childrenvulnerable to neglect, to
abandonment, you know,subsequently to
institutionalization.
So if we truly want to prevent,you know, family separation, we
must ensure robust, you know,social protection systems
developed or enhanced bygovernments, you know, that

(12:22):
really help families towithstand.
You know, economic shocks.
You know, economic hardships,strengthening this safety.
Safety is a message you knowit's critical to reducing
orphanages.
It's also about, you know,safeguarding, you know,
childhood itself.
When we do that, good news.

(12:43):
You know we can change this.
You know childhood itself.
When we do that, good news.
You know we, we can change this.
You know, with better fundingstrategies I think we've
mentioned about, you know, uh,the the millions or billions of
funding that get into thissystem.
You know a shift in society, uh, societal attitudes, you know,

(13:04):
and strong systems really toprotect families from, you know,
financial strain.
I believe that we can create aworld where really grow up and
belong in families.
Yeah, I feel like you knowthose are the main challenges
that come to mind.

(13:24):
I know there are otherchallenges, but I feel like
poverty, the attitudes, existingattitudes and poverty through
the funding, the struggles thatfamilies go through these are
issues I mean.

(13:44):
Poverty will always be there, Ibelieve, but again, we need to
change perceptions that povertyor disability or any of the
factors that are mentioned canbe reasons to put these children
in orphanages.
I believe not.
Yeah, over to you, phil.

Speaker 6 (14:11):
Great, believe not.
Um, yeah, um, over to you, phil, great, yeah, those are are
terrific points, steven and I.
I'd throw in a couple of otherthings.
I, I do think you know changingthese attitudes.
I call them paradigm shiftsthat have to take place.
Um, and I, I think you, there'sa couple of paradigm shifts.
It's that move from focusinginward to focusing outward.
Focusing inward being focusedonly on the children living on

(14:32):
our campus, all of all of ourministry is what takes place
inside the walls we build,focusing outward into our
communities, engaging withchurches, engaging with
governments, engaging withcommunity leaders, engaging with
families and preventingseparation and then

(14:54):
reintegrating children back tofamily.
So that's the first one inwardfocus, outward focus.
The second one is focusing onthe model of care that we're
delivering, towards focusing onwhat's best for each child.
You know, so many times I hearpeople fighting about what's the
better way to care for children.
Is it better to care for themin the institution or is it

(15:17):
better to care for them infamily environments, and it's
really the wrong question.
I think that the question needsto be what is the best thing
for this child, when we canpersonalize the care and say who
is this child and what doesthis child need?
What are their opportunities?

(15:38):
Where is their family?
Why did they end up in thischildren home and what would it
take to get them to a differentplace?
Why did they end up in thischildren home and what would it
take to get them to a differentplace?
When we can we, when we canmake that kind of focus, uh,
that that kind of shift.
All of a sudden the model ofcare becomes secondary.
And then the and the question,the to that answer.

(15:58):
The answer, that question iswhat's the best place for this
child?
And let's develop the rightsolution for that child.
If we have 30 children livingon our orphanages and our
children's homes, we're going toneed 30 unique and particular
solutions for each one of thosechildren.
The next big paradigm shift thatI think about is the move from

(16:21):
child-focused to family-focused.
The children's home is focusedon children, but as we began to
engage in communities, werealized that our bigger
challenge is to supportvulnerable families and to come
around them.
As Stephen was saying, focus oneconomic empowerment, because

(16:43):
poverty is such a big cause ofchildren ending up in
residential care.
And the first thing that Iwould mention is, you know, I
used to think that improvingorphanages was an important goal
alongside developingfamily-based care, but I've come
to realize our first priorityneeds to be developing
family-based care.

(17:03):
But I've come to realize ourfirst priority needs to be
developing family-basedsolutions before we think about
trying to improve our orphanages.
As that story I told you inHonduras, they went from 40
children they got down to aboutsix kids living on their campus
at one point and they were ableto really change that from

(17:24):
improving their orphanage tomake that very, very family-like
with that few number of kids,while they continued to push to
get those six kids into families.
So, focusing on on the family,uh, as opposed to focusing on,
uh, the individual child.
Back to you, david.

Speaker 4 (17:44):
Yeah, thank you Phil and thank you Stephen.
I totally agree with you on thechallenges, as it is also my
experience working in this partof the world in transition.
Yeah Well, if these two sets ofinstitutions I mean the
government and organizationscome together, we will

(18:06):
experience a lot of positiveimpact or outcome in our efforts
to transition orphanages.
So how can these institutions,organizations and government
work together to overcome theseobstacles?

Speaker 5 (18:32):
I think, yeah, stakeholders, we do appreciate
and acknowledge that.
You know, first and foremost,the primary actor responsible,
you know, for the care andprotection of children in any
context is, you know, is thegovernment.
And you know, as NGOs, we reallycome in to play that
complementary role and tosupport, you know, this mandate.
But, at the same time, I don'tthink we should shy off, you

(18:56):
know, holding the governmentaccountable.
Um, as you know, the the wholeissue proliferation of, you know
, unregistered orphanages, ofunregistered orphanages, and
even just the whole system beingbroken is because at times I
feel like we've really failed tohold the government accountable

(19:20):
to the role of ensuring thatchildren are well cared for and
they are protected within theirfamilies and communities.
So I feel like, yeah, there isthat, you know, important role
that the government has in termsof developing, you know,
frameworks, you know policies,guidelines and standards, but

(19:41):
they also have a role to play interms of, you know, supporting
children and families withnecessary social protection
interventions that reduceseparation and abandonment.
There is also another importantpoint on coordination and to

(20:02):
drive meaningful change, we musthave a unified voice and
aligned interventions.
You know fragmented efforts,not only slow progress, I feel
like you know they lead towasted resources.
So I feel like, yeah, there isneed to see how we work together
to ensure efficiency if youalso clarity, you know of a

(20:26):
sharedvision of, you know, children
growing up in families.
And, let me say, beyondcoordination, you know, again,
it's looking at the issue from avery systemic perspective.
I did mention about, you knowthe root causes of the problem
being addressed and I feel likeit's only the government at

(20:50):
times that can offer ourguidance to some of these
organizations.
But you know, resources can't bewasted in orphanages.
We can make better use of ourresources through, you know,
supporting families andcommunities and you know we, as
civil society organizations,can't go telling organizations

(21:13):
how to redirect resources tosuch kind of interventions.
It's only the government thatcan do that.
So I feel like, yeah, indeed,with that universe without one
voice, I feel like thegovernment can really help in
that aspect of you know, tellingorganizations this is where we

(21:41):
can put our resources instead ofhere, because we know the harm
that we are causing tocommunities.
So, yeah, I feel like, indeed,for me that's the role of the
government.
You know, oversight,coordination, including, you
know, making sure that we areworking on one strategy, but you

(22:06):
know, it's not always the case.
I know, like you, I know in thedeveloping countries there are
all sorts of challenges oftrying to bring people together,
but I feel like us knowing theproblem means that we should be
improving in terms of workingtogether towards this common
goal.

Speaker 6 (22:26):
Thanks, towards this common goal.
Thanks, thank you, stephen.
Yeah, thank you, stephen, andgreat points, and I'll add just
a couple of things.
You know.
The first thing I would say isthat the children's homes and
the government can work together, and particularly I don't know

(22:48):
exactly the audience of thispodcast, but the world that I'm
in is particularly in thefaith-based Christian and
Catholic children's homes thatsometimes would have a fear of
government, that if they getinvolved with government, that
the government's going todictate their ability to share

(23:08):
their faith with the childrenand families that are in their
program, and so I often comeacross children's homes that
have a great fear in trying tohold them at a distance.
That's why you have so manyunregistered children's homes in
a lot of these countries.
But I really encouragechildren's homes to invite a
close working relationship withthe local government.

(23:30):
Casa Viva, costa Rica, caresfor hundreds of children in
foster care every year and workstoward reunification and
adoption and long-term fosteringif needed, but we have an
extremely close relationshipwith the government.
I think somebody from our officeis either in a government

(23:53):
office or at least talking withsomeone from the local
government local child welfareevery day, and so that's
important, and what we've alwayssaid is we're going to balance
two things honor and respectwith high standards.
We feel like many people loveto blame governments, but what

(24:14):
we try to do is honor andrespect the government and the
government workers for the workthat they're doing.
We found, generally they aretasked with a huge job.
They can get it right 99 timesand that one time that they
don't get it right goes on thenational news.
Nobody says thank you for the99.
It's that one that's on thenational news that everybody

(24:35):
wants to close the child welfareand fire all the people there.
So it's extremely difficult.
We honor and respect them.
At the same time we hold them tohigh standards.
It is in the Constitution, inthe laws, in the policies of the
government that they're goingto act in the best interest of
children, youth and families,and so we hold them to that high

(24:56):
standard to act that way.
And then we come alongside themand help them to do that, to
accomplish the role that thegovernment has.
We help the government bebetter for the future.
And you know, going back tothat question of Christian, what
we found is, you know,unfortunately oftentimes

(25:16):
government thinks about theChristian projects and the
professional projects andthey're like two different ends
of a scale.
But we don't think that's theway that it should be.
We think that it is possible tobe 100% professional in the
work we're doing and also 100%Christian.
So we try to bring those twothings together in the work that

(25:39):
we're doing and find that thegovernments respond very well to
that.
David, back to you.

Speaker 4 (25:47):
Thank you very much.
Great points from you guys and,yes, moving forward.
We really want to know likefunding as historically
supported orphanages.
How can we shift financialsupport towards family-based
models instead?
Stephen?

Speaker 5 (26:31):
Wow, yeah.
So I feel the issue of fundingit sounds easy, but I also do
acknowledge the challenge thatthe people who find orphanages
are different, they're diverse,but I think it calls for a lot
of awareness raising.
Really, we really need to makesure that we reach to as many
audiences as possible.
But also, I feel like there isa significant responsibility by
the government, as Phil didmention, of actually giving a

(26:56):
direction in terms of where thefunding should go, and I feel
like, for me, that's where wecan achieve a lot if we want to
achieve, you know, a significantchange that the government, for
example, in Kenya, we've beentelling the government.
You know we are not telling youto tell people where to put

(27:23):
their money, but I believe, aspart of your communication
strategy, do communicate toorphanages owners and funders,
telling them, you know we areasking you that we have this new
policy direction.
So why can't you actually?

(27:43):
You know, start.
You know and you know we'vebeen given a timeframe.
It's not like you know start.
You know and you know we'vebeen given a timeframe.
It's not like you know, do thisby tomorrow.
You have 10 years to be able todo this.
So, how, you know and you knowthe government has made a lot of
effort, you know, to ensurethat you know there are
guidelines and standards thatsort of give a sense of you know

(28:06):
where they can put theirresources.
So I feel like for me that iskey for this process of change,
because you know it's hard andyou know it's very difficult for
us to know who exactly fundsorphanages.
I know we know significantlyChristians but again, you know
it's not just Christians whoattend one church.

Speaker 3 (28:27):
You know there are different sorts of Christians.

Speaker 5 (28:28):
But again, it's not just Christians who attend one
church.
They are all different sorts ofChristians.
And so I feel like we need to do, yes, a lot of awareness in
schools, in churches, ininstitutions, all that.
But I feel like we need to askourselves where can we achieve
more in terms of helping?

(28:49):
You know, helping theseresources to be redirected, and
I think, from our case, it'salso trying to do the modeling,
showing people that it'spossible.
And you know asking.
You know companies, corporates,you know this.
You know, if you put your moneyhere, this is the return on

(29:12):
investment.
But again, you know, thesethings take time.
But I'm always saying I feelsad because you know, for every
second or even minute or a daythat a child spends in an
institution, you really don'tknow what they're going through.
Um, so I feel like it's quiteurgent, but again, my hands, my

(29:35):
hands, are always tired in termsof expediting this process.
You know it's it's been over 20years since I left care and at
times I feel like you, nothingmuch has really changed.
So I'm just thinking, you know,what can we do?
Something that we can do toachieve maximum change.

Speaker 6 (30:03):
Not easy, but yeah, all right, thank you, Steve and
Phil, yeah, so I would say thatwe have to.
Everyone who's involved in thechildren's home needs to be part
of this transition and needs torecognize their role and their

(30:25):
responsibility that they play.
If you, as a listener, are adonor to an orphanage, your
first thought might be mygoodness, I need to stop
supporting that orphanage.
And that's the wrong message.
It's the message that we don'twant you to hear today.
What we want you to hear isyou've been a part of helping

(30:45):
create this children's home.
There are some good storiesthat have come out of this.
There's also some verydifficult stories coming out of
the children's home, so theright thing to do is to use your
role as a way to help influencethe children's home that you
love towards change, and yourrole might be that you're one of

(31:06):
100 donors who are supportingthat children's home.
You have an important voice.
You might be part of theleadership of an organization or
work in an organization that issupporting children's homes.
You have an opportunity to worktoward change, and the way to
start that is by askingquestions.

(31:28):
Understand who those childrenare that are living on your
campus.
Do they have moms and dads,extended family?
Why are they living in thishome?
What caused them to becomeseparated from their families?
What would have to change forthose children to be able to go
back home?
What is the children's homethat you love doing to bring

(31:49):
about those changes?
And then it's not to stopsupporting them, but it's to
help them walk through thisprocess, to expand their
services, to be caring forchildren and families and to
continue supporting theorphanage through that process.
And I also think it's one thingabout family-based care is that

(32:12):
it does allow this change fromthe inward focus to the outward
focus.
It allows us to engage with thebroader community in our
locations and allows them to getinvolved in the funding.
I think about a project inParaguay that developed a new
family-based care model therethe first foster care program in

(32:34):
Asuncion, Paraguay, or one ofthe first programs there and
they were concerned about thefunding for this new project
that they were developing.
But they took on the challengeto say what would it take to get
local funding for this project?
And so they began to approachlocal businesses, local leaders

(32:58):
and local churches, and throughthat they've been able to
achieve a lot of their fundingcoming from local sources, which
is much more sustainablelong-term as well.
So continue to give to thechildren's home that you love.
Help them, ask the questions,connect them to places like

(33:18):
Helping Children Worldwide, tothe Faith to Action Initiative,
to other organizations that arereally supporting those
children's homes as they maketransitions, and then walk
alongside them as they makethose transitions.

Speaker 4 (33:34):
Thank you very much.
Great points there, and now wewant to look forward and, like
we said, we still have more todiscuss and more ideas to share.
So how do we keep the momentumgoing after the Rising Tide
Conference?
What are the next steps forthis movement?

Speaker 6 (33:57):
David.

Speaker 5 (34:00):
Yes, what are the next steps?
Wow, yeah, that's a greatquestion.
Steps Wow, yeah, that's a greatquestion.
I feel like one.
We need to continue to mobilize, continue to organize.

(34:23):
I feel like you know there'sstrength in numbers, and so I
still feel like within thosenumbers again, it's not just
numbers, it's knowledge that'sthere, collective knowledge.
You know the collectiveexperiences that are there that

(34:44):
we can tap into to really scaleup so strongly.
I do feel like we really don'thave room to work in a
fragmented manner.
The resources are few, but Ifeel like you know like just
coming together really helps interms of addressing issues to do

(35:06):
with duplication of resourcesand all that.
So I'm very, very much into.
The next step is to organizebetter.
I don't feel like we've reallygotten to that stage, and how
that happens I really don't havean answer to, but I feel like

(35:27):
we really need to organizebetter, come together.
I think also, the next step forme is also looking at the
current challenges, especiallyin terms of resources.
We really don't want to abandonchildren at this critical time
of need.
It's to ask ourselves, yes, howcan we continue to raise

(35:52):
resources, but how can we alsocontinue to influence resources
to be redirected to family caresteps, you know, to family care.

Speaker 6 (36:10):
So yeah, I mean that's on top of my mind in
terms of the next steps.
All right, yeah, david, and Iwould add into that a phrase
that I use is light little fires, as I'm seeing lots of small
children's homes, medium-sizedchildren's homes, even large

(36:30):
children's homes, make steps tocare for children and families
and what does this child need?
And they're finding ways tocreatively engage in their
communities with the familiesand in their communities.
They're finding ways to bringchurches in to be a part of the

(36:51):
solution.
They're finding ways to engagewith government.
I think, lighting little fires,getting little things started,
and pretty soon those fires willjoin together and we'll see a
big blaze that's a globalmovement of getting children
into families.

Speaker 4 (37:10):
Yeah, David, before.

Speaker 5 (37:10):
I lose the point.

Speaker 3 (37:12):
All right, go ahead.

Speaker 5 (37:15):
Yeah, I just want to add to what Phil has said.
I feel like change doesn'thappen by chance.
It happens through strategy.
There is need for commitmentand collaboration, and I feel we

(37:36):
must not only define ourpurpose but also build a roadmap
that takes us, you know, fromthe ideas that we've all shared.
You know that we shared duringthe rising tides.
You know, take that to action,you know, and from action to

(37:56):
true transformation.
So I'm really excited that weare starting to think about a
clear vision, a clear missionand objectives after the rising

(38:18):
tides.
This can define who we are now,what we stand for, and also
look at what sets us apart as amovement, and let me call
ourselves a movement.
But again it goes back to mypoint I think we really need to
organise better.

Speaker 4 (38:36):
Thanks, david thank you very much.
Indeed.
We need to organise andcontinue working hard.
So we talked about shifting themindset, because we still have
people who believe thatorphanage is the best solution

(38:56):
for vulnerable children.
So what can you say to someonewho still believes or who still
have such beliefs, stephen?

Speaker 5 (39:13):
I feel like this is more like repetition because I
feel like Phil has reallymentioned a lot.
But, yeah, there is undeniableevidence, you know, proving that
you know families are essentialsort of you know, the main main
unit of society that we reallyneed to protect, for us to

(39:37):
ensure that children are notsurviving they are thriving, for
us to ensure that children arenot surviving they are thriving.
And I would say that, you know,when we know better, we have a
responsibility to actually dobetter.
So, you know, children don'tjust need, you know, the food,
shelter, clothing, education.
They need love, connection, asense of belonging and identity.

(40:05):
And the truth is, you know,children can't truly thrive in
orphanages.
Yeah, institutions as we knowthem they isolate, whereas
families embrace a mercy.
So I feel like, you know, everychild deserves, you know, to
feel included.
And you know, I know, in thesecular world there is a
terminology that's really aconcept of inclusion.

(40:26):
But I feel like inclusion isoften sort of used more in
schools.
But I feel like we need to lookat the term inclusion, to look
at children who are separatedfrom families and say, you know,
these children need to beincluded in families, they need
to know that they're an integralpart of the society, not

(40:48):
separate from it.
And you know orphanages, youknow.
For me they create barriers andyou know I had a few mention
about war.
You know wars, you know.
But families actually tearthose barriers down and they
ensure that children grow up,you know, with love, with
identity, and you know theirfuture is, you know, rooted in

(41:13):
belonging.
If we are committed, you know,to the well-being, we must
rethink the outdated system andinvest in what we now know truly
works, and that's strongfamilies.
Over to you, Phil.

Speaker 6 (41:31):
Great.
You said it very well and youknow this idea of listening to
the children is a great place tostart in this whole thing.
My friend, Hazel, was thedirector of a children's home in
Costa Rica and she did someamazing and innovative things to

(41:54):
make the children's home greatand she developed some programs
that gave the children freedomto leave the campus to go visit
friends from school.
She allowed them to save moneyto be able to go shopping mall
and shop, things that kids inorphanages oftentimes never get
to do.

(42:14):
She did and she really providedsome significant care.
And she told me that she askedthe children.
She she decided to do a littlesurvey and asked the children
what else could we be doing thatyou would like to have that you
don't have?
And when she told me the storyshe said I almost, uh, looking

(42:37):
back, think I was thinking itwas going to be a pat on the
back that all the kids weregoing to tell me how much they
loved the changes at theorphanage and how great things
were.
And but she did ask thequestion.
She brought the kids in one byone into her office.
There were 26 youth and theywere all adolescents and they're

(42:59):
, you know 13 to 18 years, andall 26 of the kids answered her
with one thing I want to live ina family.
And it was a gut punch for myfriend Hazel.
She was expecting to hear howgreat the children's homework
was, and what she heard, whenshe was willing to sit down and

(43:21):
ask that question, was I want tolive in families.
Kids, children and youth knowthe difference between a family
and a children's home, and asmuch as we make our children's
homes as great as they possiblycan be, children still want to
be in family.
Hazel listened and I give hercredit for this.

(43:41):
Hazel listened and I give hercredit for this.
She approached the Casa VivaSolutions team and we helped her
develop the skills to beginfinding alternative families.
All 26 of these kids had beendeclared in abandonment.
They were adolescents, as Imentioned, a difficult category
but she began a mentoringprogram that got them connected

(44:04):
to families.
That mentoring program turnedinto foster care and then that
turned into adoption.
All 26 of those children leftthe children home and moved in
with families, so it is possibleto do this.

Speaker 4 (44:38):
So it is possible to do this and Hazel's story tells
me we have to ask the questions,listen to the children and then
work.
Inspiring story for listenersand asking the children is
really key in this aspect.
As a last one, what keeps youoptimistic or hopeful?

Speaker 6 (45:10):
about your work or this topic, Stephen.
You go ahead.

Speaker 5 (45:18):
Thank you, wow, yes.
So let me say I'm alwaysencouraged by the fact that we
are not just saying it ispossible, you know, but we are
leading by example.

(45:38):
We are truly seeing change.
You know, you don't see thekind of change that you see in
hundreds of children being keptin one place.
We always say it's one child ata time and we always say don't
take the easy route, children.

(46:00):
We know when you're interveningfor children, it's not an easy
route.
It's actually, you know, what'sin the best interest of the
child, as Phil did mention.
So I feel like you know everystory of a child.
You know that we place in afamily and stays in the family.
For me it's a story of hope, astory of inspiration and a story

(46:23):
of restoration and you knowthat for me it's truly a comfort
.
It's, you know, just seeing onechild that's, you know, being
held and raised by, you know, acaregiver, a parent, you know
whether it's a kinship carer, achild, you know, child being
held by hand.

(46:46):
I mean, it's that.
It's not the mass care that wesee and I always say, you know,
it's not the factory of children, it's those individual stories.
So I feel like for me that sortof really gives me hope every
day, just seeing a child who ison the back of a mama carrying

(47:08):
them.
For me that's what we all needto see and it gives me a lot of
hope that, you know, there ishope that other children you
know get to enjoy that.
Thanks Over to you, phil.

Speaker 6 (47:27):
Yeah, it is easy to be discouraged in this work, to
be overwhelmed by the numbers.
You know the estimates rangefrom, you know, two to eight
million children who are livingin residential care today, and
it's easy to be overwhelmed andto be concerned about it.
But at the same time, you know,what gives me hope is when I

(47:51):
hear stories, meet children,meet families that have been
reunified and see those you know, seeing people thriving back in
family-based environments.
Laura and I were at aconference just two weeks ago
and we saw pictures from anorganization that's working with

(48:12):
children with disabilities inHaiti and helping them get them
back into biological andextended families, and it was
beautiful, the stories that wewere seeing.
You know, we say, oh, wow, itcould never work for my
orphanage, it could never workin our situation.
We're in a more difficult place, but we're seeing it happen in

(48:36):
places around the world and webelieve that it can happen.
I was speaking at an event and alady came rushing into the
event right before it startedand she said now, can I
understand?
Are you talking about movingchildren out of orphanages and
into families?
And I said, yes, I am.

(48:56):
And she said well, no offense,I'm going to leave because where
I live it's not going to bepossible and I wanted to go to a
different breakout and I waschoosing between them.
So I think I'll go to the otherone.
It's not possible.
I said, ok, that that's fine.
So she went and I said beforeyou go, tell me where.
Where is it the children's homethat you're working with?
She said Chihuahua, mexico, and, interestingly enough, one of

(49:26):
the examples in my PowerPoint ofa children's home that had
transitioned to family-basedcare was based in Chihuahua,
mexico, where she was telling meit was impossible.
It is not impossible to movechildren to families.
It is possible to do it, andwhen we see those children
thriving in those spaces and wesee the beautiful stories of
coming around at-risk familiesand helping them come together

(49:47):
and thrive, we see that we'refulfilling the biblical command
and it's very motivating.
So that's what gives me hope aswell is those individual
stories and people.
David.

Speaker 4 (50:01):
Yes, stephen, thank you very much, and Phil, thank
you.
All.
Right, I was thinking.
I have another thought.
Anything else you want to addbefore I close?

Speaker 3 (50:13):
No, David, just to say thank you.

Speaker 5 (50:15):
Thank you, david, thank you Laura for this
opportunity, and I'm trulygrateful to be here with Phil.

Speaker 6 (50:22):
Thanks, yes, and I'll add a thank you to you, Stephen
, as well, David and Laura, andI'm going to I'll thank the
listeners as well who have madeit all the way through this
conversation to this point.
Thank you for your commitmentto the children's homes that you
love and care for, and thankyou for your maybe newfound

(50:44):
passion or maybe old passion tosee those children cared for in
the best possible place thatthey can be.
So thank you to you, thelistener as well, today.

Speaker 4 (50:54):
Thank you very much, guys, for coming to this show
today.
Thank you for joining us forthis episode of Optimistic
Voices.
It's a big, big messy wall outthere and there is no shortage
of need, but we here atOptimistic Voices believe that
with radical courage and radicalcollaboration, together we can

(51:15):
change the world.

Speaker 3 (51:18):
Thank you, guys.
Thanks for listening.
If you enjoyed this episode,please subscribe, share it with
others, post about it on socialmedia or leave a rating and
review.
To catch all the latest from us, you can find us at Helping
Children Worldwide on Instagram,linkedin, twitter and Facebook
Hashtag Optimistic Voicespodcast.
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