November 23, 2025 • 45 mins
A warm note of gratitude sets the stage for a frank, grace-filled conversation about church hurt...what it is, what it isn’t, and how we heal without denying hard truths. We welcome Scott Martin, who opens up about the loneliness of leadership, the danger of pedestal culture, and the quiet ways identity drift turns pastors into performers. Scott draws a clear line between abuses of authority and the everyday bumps of human community, then shows how clarity and humility can prevent small missteps from becoming public meltdowns.
We unpack what it means to be “in Christ,” not as a religious add-on but a core identity that steadies us when roles change and criticism cuts deep. That identity reframes expectations: pastors are guides, not saviors; congregants are partners, not consumers. Together we explore the hard balance of grace and truth—naming sin, refusing gossip, practicing accountability, and still choosing patient love. With COVID-era tensions and social media pressures as backdrop, Scott makes a compelling case for slow, honest leadership that admits “I don’t know” and keeps moving one faithful step at a time.
The heart of our podcast lands here: while the church can wound us, God heals us through the church. We consider the church as the bride of Christ and how our words either honor or tear at that bond. Unity becomes more than a slogan; it’s the everyday discipline that gives our witness credibility. If you’ve been hurt by leaders or by a community that should have protected you, we see you. Receive our sincere apology and an invitation to take one small, safe step back toward people who can walk with you.
If this conversation helped you, subscribe, share it with a friend, and leave a review so others can find hope and healing too.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Nancy Bruscher (00:00):
It's Thanksgiving week, and I'm so
thankful for you.
Ordinary People ExtraordinaryThings Podcast would not be here
without you.
With a heart of thankfulness, Iwant to give you a couple of
quick stats.
We celebrated our four-yearanniversary this month of over
14,000 downloads in 113countries.
(00:21):
The number one downloadedcountry is the United States.
But Singapore is our secondmost downloaded country.
I am praying you practice evenmore gratefulness this season,
and I am truly grateful for you.
Thank you so much forlistening.
Thank you for sharing.
Now let's get started withScott Martin.
Welcome to Ordinary PeopleExtraordinary Things.
(00:42):
I'm so excited to have Scotton.
Scott, thanks for being on thepodcast.
Scott Martin (00:46):
Hey, it's my pleasure.
Thanks for inviting me to comeon and for a chance to talk.
Nancy Bruscher (00:50):
Yeah, I'm looking forward to our
conversation.
Yeah, me too.
If people don't know who youare, can you give three words or
phrases to describe yourself?
Scott Martin (00:59):
Yes.
So uh three words, I woulddescribe myself as uh playful,
studious, and stubborn.
So those are I like to have funand sometimes I probably have
too much fun because I try tohave fun with everything.
Um studious, I'm I like school.
Uh I like to study, I like tolearn, I like to read.
Uh, I tend to be a curiousperson, like I want to
(01:19):
understand things, and uh Icould be stubborn.
Ask anyone close to me, ask myfamily.
Sometimes that's a good thing,and sometimes it's a super
frustrating thing.
Nancy Bruscher (01:29):
Yeah.
I think almost allcharacteristics can be good and
bad, right?
I mean, there's some thataren't, but when I think of it,
it's just kind of how how youplay along the line of um Yeah,
definitely for sure.
Scott Martin (01:43):
And stubbornness, I think, runs in my family.
I think it's uh not myimmediate family.
Well, yeah, like I got it frommy dad.
So, you know, it's a it's amale hereditary trait in my
family.
Nancy Bruscher (01:54):
And what about studious?
Do you love studying probablyobviously the Bible since you're
a pastor, but are there otherthings you love to study?
Scott Martin (02:02):
A little bit.
Like I'll tell sometimes it'sjust things that like we're
doing as a family.
Like maybe we're going onvacation, it's like we're going
to Yellowstone.
It's like, oh, I want to learnabout Yellowstone.
Or um, sometimes it's things mykids will get into.
Like um, my son, especially,like, we'll do deep dives.
Like when he was younger, wegot way into like comic books
and Marvel.
And so we de dive deep divedeep, not into just like the
(02:22):
movies, but all the coneverything behind it.
So, I mean, yeah, I do have mymy primary interest for like
theology and ministry and thingslike that, Bible scripture, but
all kinds of stuff, really.
Nancy Bruscher (02:32):
So you've gotten like me, like, I know more
about Pokemon than I really careto know about because my son's
into Pokemon, but yeah.
Scott Martin (02:42):
Exactly.
Yeah, there's things that Inever knew about all these
superheroes and comic books, andyou know, there's the stuff you
you see in movies, but thenthere's the ongoing story for
the last 40 years or howeverlong they've been heroes.
So, but it's fun.
I find it interesting.
Nancy Bruscher (02:56):
That's awesome.
Well, we're gonna talk about, Iguess we'll just use the word
church hurt because that is acommon phrase, but I want to go
ahead and pray because I wantpeople to hear our hearts on it.
I think we're on the same pageabout like we want to talk about
this.
It's an important thing to talkabout because that word, that
(03:16):
phrase is out there.
But I we also know that thereare people that have truly,
truly been hurt by people in thechurch.
And we want to make sure thatwe're that they're hearing like
our hearts behind it, if thatmakes sense.
Yeah.
Perfect.
Let's pray.
God, thank you so much for thistime together.
We give it to you, God.
(03:37):
Scott and I probably both havethings that we think we're going
to say.
We've maybe thought about somethings, but God, we're gonna
just give that all to you.
Help us to have our words beyour words.
Help that any miss sayings thatwe say, that people will will
not hear that, that they'll heargrace, that they'll hear truth
and love and you through thisconversation, God.
(03:59):
And anyone who's been hurt bypeople, have that be any people,
right?
This could bring up a lot ofemotions for anyone, God.
And we just ask that you arethere with them as they listen
to this podcast.
Help us to not just stay in thehurt, but learn how to come out
of it or learn how to um justgrow from it, God.
(04:22):
And so that's why we always dothis at Ordinary People,
extraordinary things, is we wantto land on hope.
We want to land on you.
So have this podcast glorifyyou.
Amen.
Scott Martin (04:32):
Amen.
Nancy Bruscher (04:34):
So this fun topic.
Scott Martin (04:38):
It's an easy one.
Nancy Bruscher (04:39):
Yeah, like let's just breeze through it.
I have actually, this is onethat I I've really gone to
scripture on.
I've been really praying aboutit because, like I said, it I
want this to be glorifying.
I don't want this just to belike, well, let's just put
people down or let's just tellour stories or anything like
that.
But also we know that this isthe world that we live in.
(04:59):
And so I don't also want tojust gloss over something that
probably everyone who's been ina church, just like if you've
been in any relationship at anytime, you've been hurt by
people, right?
And so, but there is thisphrase that people in the church
and out of the church know, andit's church hurt.
So, what do you think thatphrase means, maybe to people in
(05:22):
the church or maybe outside thechurch?
Do you think that people arethinking the same definition?
Scott Martin (05:29):
Yeah, um, that's a that's a really good question.
And I think not always.
Um, I mean, church hurt, if youjust take the basic definition,
could be any hurt youexperience inside the church.
But generally, when people useit, I hear them refer to one of
two things.
Um, the first and most common,I think, is specifically hurt
(05:51):
from church leadership.
So, and again, depending onyour denomination or church
structure, that could be staffmembers, elders, board members,
sometimes even key volunteerleaders.
Um, and it's hurt that isalmost like an abuse of power,
kind of that that this personwas, and in most cases, a
(06:12):
trusted person.
Like I trusted you as mypastor, my leader, my shepherd,
and you betrayed that inwhatever way you betrayed that.
That's the first way I hear itused.
I think the second most commonway is more of a general where
someone feels, usually for forsome situation in their life,
(06:33):
they feel rejected by the largerchurch.
So maybe they went throughsomething, could be uh like a
divorce or something like that.
And it's like I just feltrejected by the church at large.
Um, generally, this is notalways true, but like when when
congregation members, when theydisagree, I guess you could call
that church hurt, but I don'tmost often hear people refer it
(06:54):
to that.
Usually, again, like I said,it's one of the not always, not
always.
And that's my experience, maybeyours is different, um, but
it's from a leadership or justan overall, I felt rejected by
the church at large.
Nancy Bruscher (07:05):
Okay, that's good to, yeah, that's good to
know where you where you've seenthat.
How do you think that thishurts people who are not in the
church?
If they have this common phrasethat we see, do you think
that's hurting people fromwanting to be a part of the
church?
Scott Martin (07:21):
Yeah, I'm I mean, I do think it really does
because you know, anytimewhatever the group is, you can
pick whatever group.
If you hear something bad aboutthe church or the this group,
hey, this group is whatever,selfish, manipulative.
It makes you not want to dothat.
And I think the term churchhurt, I want to be careful when
I say this.
(07:42):
And so I hope I hope you'llhear my heart on this.
I feel sometimes like we use itkind of like we use the word
trauma, that I'm really gratefulthat we live in a culture that
recognizes trauma.
Because I think for a long timewe just didn't.
We just like, oh, you're fine,get over it, like walk it off,
you're gonna you're gonna beokay.
But now that we recognize that,like, no, there's people have
(08:03):
experienced real trauma and thatdoes things to you.
I think that's I think that'shealthy.
I do think sometimes as peoplewe overuse that and we'll say
things like, oh, this was thiswas trauma.
And it's like, well, no, itwasn't good, but it wasn't
necessarily trauma.
And I kind of feel the same waywith church hurt, that like I
(08:24):
don't want to deny that thereare some people within the
church that have done somehorrific things.
There just are.
They have abused their power,um, they've manipulated people,
and that's the stuff I need tothink.
I I think sometimes we need toseparate from just we're we're
human beings.
Because like, yeah, I I am I'ma pastor, I'm a pastor to
church, and I understand thatcomes with a certain amount of
(08:47):
responsibility and and and andtrust.
But I also think there's adifference between me as a
person, Scott, I let you down,and me as a pastor, I literally
abused my my role.
Because like if you know anyonefor long enough, like I'm gonna
let you down.
Like if you know me long enoughin some way or another, and it
(09:07):
could be something little like,you know, I took your parking
spot in the parking lot.
Like you and I were like maybeI was a jerk about it, maybe I
cut you off.
But that wouldn't be likechurch hurt.
That would just be, oh, Scottcould be selfish sometimes.
And whereas church hurt, Ithink, is is really no, in my
position as a pastor, Imanipulated that and I caused
(09:30):
real damage.
And and also even to the otherone where it's like, hey, the
church in general kind of turnedhis back on me, that does
happen.
I mean, I've seen it happen,but I've also seen sometimes
where where maybe one person wasmean to you, and then we spread
that out, just blame the wholechurch.
And so I think it's a realthing.
Like, I don't I I I hope I'mmaking that clear.
(09:50):
Like, I think church churchhurt is real, but I also think
we need to be careful betweenlike what is actually church
hurt and what is hey, this isone human who who messed up and
was mean or was rude or or youknow, but they're one, they're
not representative of the entirebody of Christ.
(10:12):
And two, this wasn't a case ofa pastor and elder actually
misusing their authority insomeone's life, if that makes
sense at all.
Nancy Bruscher (10:22):
Yeah, it does.
It does.
And I don't I don't want to getinto like the nitty-gritty of
things, but have you been saidthat you caused that to someone,
or that that you have felt thatway, or have you kind of been
able to take take what you justsaid and said, you know, that's
like more of a one-on-one, oryou were able to see the grace,
(10:44):
or you know, because obviouslyyou've been pastoring for a long
time.
You have been hurt by people,right?
Because that's it'sunfortunately just how we are as
humans.
I think I want to get into thisof like, why did God choose us?
What why?
Why?
Like, we are all so broken.
Like, even when we're like atour best, I'm doing air quotes
(11:06):
for anyone listening, like,we're still so broken.
So it's like, so why did Goduse the church, his bride, for
his plan for restoration, right?
Like that's mind-boggling tome.
And sometimes I'm like, really,God, this is what you came up
with.
But do you have any thoughts onthat?
Scott Martin (11:26):
Yeah, you said something there, though, that
you and I talked about itearlier, but it is a little
interesting that I think there'sanother side of church hurt,
and and I don't I don't want tolook at this like I'm trying to
compare it because I'm not, butthere is another side of church
hurt that I think sometimeschurch leaders experience where
they feel hurt by thecongregation.
Like I know I've talked aboutit a little bit, but that was my
(11:46):
family's experience duringCOVID.
And so I again, I don't want toget into nitty-gritty, I don't
want to blame people, but Ithink that happens too.
I think it was Gene Apple,who's he's a pastor at East
Side, a big church inCalifornia.
I think it was him who said it.
I could be wrong, but he said,you know, as as a minister,
sometimes, as a pastor,sometimes there's wounds that we
have within the church that wemay not experience healing from
(12:07):
this side of heaven.
And it just there is that,because there's a lot that's
that's put on church leadersthat, and again, it depends on
your specific domination.
So it could be pastors, couldbe elders, shepherds, deacons,
whatever, but there's a lot thatgets put on them that that if
we're not careful as churches,we can actually end up wounding
(12:27):
leaders because we expect toomuch from them, we put them on
pedestals, we blame them foreverything.
And so it it does kind of goboth ways.
There is that, and to yourpoint, it's because we're broken
people.
Like we're flawed people.
The I don't care if you're thepastor, the worship leader, or I
don't care if you're an averageattender, like everyone in the
(12:47):
church is a broken and andflawed person.
We don't want to be.
And especially I think this iswhy a lot of a lot of church
hurt happens from leadership, isa lot of times pastors,
leaders, elders, things likethat, because I know your
husband was an elder atSoutheast over the last couple
of years, and I'm sure heprobably has his own stories on,
(13:08):
I guess, would be both sides ofwhat that looks like.
But there's this this desirethat like we want to know and we
want to be right.
And and and it's not always aselfish thing.
Sometimes it's just rooted in,you know, I have this
responsibility for this churchthat I'm a part of leading, and
and I want to be able to like,this is exactly what we're
doing, and this is exactly, butI mean, God scripturally, God
(13:31):
leads us one step at a time.
And so sometimes, especiallywhen you get into something as
crazy as COVID or you get intolike some wild situation, I
can't stand up here and tell youthat.
I don't fully know.
And even if you narrow it downto like a specific situation,
like maybe you're just talkingto one person and they're
sharing something big in theirlife, like, hey, this is this
trend, and you want to be ableto provide clarity.
Like, I want to look at you andsay, This is what you should
(13:54):
do.
This is, I don't always know.
Like, I'm not God, I'm not thespirit.
So, I mean, I think in thosemoments we can be attentive
together, we can discerntogether, but I think a lot of
times it's out of a place ofdeep insecurity that pastors end
up causing hurt.
Because like they're trying tojust, I'm trying to be clear,
I'm trying to be strong, I thinkthis is the right thing to do.
And and so, in some ways, it'slike this lack of humility that
(14:18):
actually leads us to causinghurt and pain and damage because
we're trying to projectcertainty that we don't have,
that we don't know, that thatthat we don't feel.
And I think sometimes too, thesame thing goes the other way
around.
Because when I look at COVID, Ithink a lot of the hurt that
was done to my family wasthrough the uncertainty of the
congregation.
Like you had all the chaos ofpeople like, what do we do?
(14:40):
Where do we go?
And and you know, we'restanding up there like, hey,
we're trying to be faithful andwe're gonna take this one step
at a time.
And people were just scared andthey were angry and they were
afraid.
And so that turns to, you know,judgment and attacking.
And so the irony of it is Ithink a lot of it is rooted in
our like we wound, like it's thewhat's the phrase, hurt people,
(15:02):
hurt people.
Nancy Bruscher (15:02):
Yeah.
Scott Martin (15:03):
Like it's out of our own security, but we hide it
because we don't want to comeacross.
Like, I don't want to stand upas a pastor and be like, hey,
here we are, and I don't knowwhat we're doing.
We're gonna, we're gonna, we'regonna stay faithful.
Right.
We're gonna we're gonna stayfaithful and we're gonna figure
this out together.
And but then yeah, then thatthat begs exactly that question
you're talking about is wellthen God, why is this the
(15:25):
instrument that you chose tobank everything on?
I mean, that's my friend Jeffhe spoke to us last weekend.
That's what he said.
He goes, There is no plan B.
Nancy Bruscher (15:32):
There's no plan B.
This is it, the church.
And you're like, what?
Yeah, what some things that I Iheard you say really came up as
as Chris became a leader, anelder in the church.
Um, people came up, and one ofthe things that they said is
leadership is lonely.
And then actually, Brad Nelson,he was on my podcast and he
said the same thing.
He was a pastor for years, andhe's like, leader leading is so
(15:56):
lonely.
And so I just want to kind ofput that out there again because
I think that sometimes peoplemight look at you, Scott, and be
like, oh, like everyone loveshim, or everyone hates him, like
either one, right?
But like, let's say, like, likeeveryone loves you, but I think
that there's still like this,and maybe you're gonna be like,
no, I don't feel like that, butthere's still like this
(16:19):
loneliness that happens becausea lot of times people want
something from you, or um,they're expecting something from
you, or more than you're ableto give as a human being.
And so that kind of makes itlonely and lonely.
And then that that can alsobecome a problem.
That can lead to to some ofthese issues maybe as well.
Scott Martin (16:39):
Yeah, I think it leads to a lot of them because
when you get that lonely, wheredo you go?
If I'm struggling, if I'mhurting, if I'm whatever I got
going on, where do I go?
Then you don't deal with it andit builds up and it builds up,
and then it sometimes leads toepic failures and meltdowns that
impact the whole church.
I think it is lonely.
I think it's very lonely.
It's kind of a joke with thestaff that when I came, I told
(17:01):
them, I was like, I don't, Idon't ever have anyone call me
Pastor Scott.
I just go by Scott.
And it's not like I reject thattitle, and if people use it,
I'm not like, don't call methat.
But one of the things I'vetalked about when I've done like
ordinations is pastor is what Ido.
It's not what I am.
And I know some people aregonna push back with that and
(17:22):
disagree with that.
And but let me explain what Imean by that.
Like ordination, when someone'sordained, which is the process
where the church recognizes youand you officially become a
pastor, ordination is arecognition of function.
It's hey, God has called you tothis, to this vocation, to this
duty within the church.
But there will be a time whenI'm not a pastor, but I'm still
(17:44):
Scott, I'm still a child of God,I'm still a part of the
kingdom.
But for this time, for thisseason, this is my role within
within the church.
And so I want to steward thatwell, but I also don't want that
to be my identity.
Like my identity has to be thatI'm a child of God.
And so if tomorrow I am nolonger a pastor because I can't
(18:06):
be, or whatever, like that can'tbe that can't be my identity.
And so I think a lot of timesit's it's true of all people,
like we tend to find ouridentity in what we do.
You know, I'm a I'm a teacher,I'm a lawyer, but I think it can
be more damaging as a pastor ifI find my identity in any
church leader, like if I find mycore identity in I'm a pastor,
(18:26):
I'm an elder, I'm a this,because then if that becomes
threatened, like if so, if youfeel like, hey, there's people
in the church that don't likewhat I'm saying, there's people
that don't like what I'm doing,you take that as a threat, and
then you're lonely, you'reisolated, this is your identity,
you become so I I really dothink part of it is pastors,
(18:47):
church leaders developing thathealthy identity that, hey, this
is where God has called me forthis season, and I'll serve
faithfully as long as thisseason is.
But at the end of the day, thisthis doesn't define me.
Yeah.
Like you you take this awayfrom me, and I'm still just as
valuable in the church and inthe kingdom of God, even if I'm
not teaching or or or preaching.
Nancy Bruscher (19:10):
That's that's actually really profound, Scott.
I really, I really appreciatethat.
And then maybe also if peopleare listening and they're like,
hey, I'm not a pastor, I'm notuh in leadership, but then also
maybe realizing that to think ofthem just as Scott, just as
yeah, just as that person too,and not kind of weighing that on
extra does that I don't know ifI put that correctly.
Scott Martin (19:33):
Yeah, because I think most of us probably try to
find our identity in somethingexternal.
Sure.
Because for a lot of people,it's like, oh, I'm I'm a mom or
I'm a dad, or like we said, myjob, or I don't know, I'm a
runner, or like there's thisexternal thing.
But again, what happens if ifyou can't do that?
What happens if you can't runit?
(19:55):
What happens when your kidsgrow up and move out of the
house and they're independent?
What's left at that point?
And and so that's where havingthat healthy sense of identity
of, hey, I'm a child of God.
And I think sometimes too, ushaving that same expectation of
other people, like I think it'sokay in churches.
We tend to, because we'reAmerican culture, we tend to
(20:16):
like place people on pedestalsand we do that with pastors, and
that's that's not healthy for awhole lot of reasons.
It's not healthy, it's notfair.
Um, pastors shouldn't becelebrities, they're pastors.
I remember my mentor, he toldme, he goes, it has to be enough
that you're the pastor of thischurch.
He goes, if you need somethingmore, like I need a national
following and I need a a bookdeal or I need an international
(20:38):
podcast or something.
He goes, Maybe those thingscome, they come for some people,
but it has to be enough thatyou're the pastor of a local
church because that's that'swhat God has called you to.
And so I think having thatsense of identity about
ourselves and being okay withthat, but also having it for
other people.
And when it comes to pastors,knowing, like, hey, this
person's the pastor here.
So yeah, I can go to them forthings.
(20:59):
I can go to them for forguidance, I can go to them for
questions.
They may not have all theanswers, like they're they're
not God.
They probably have some kind oftraining or expertise in
scripture, Bible, theology, theycan probably be helpful, but
they're not going to solve myproblems.
They're not my savior.
Jesus is.
Yeah, it's okay to rely on apastor, to trust a pastor, to go
(21:23):
to a pastor in those times ofneeds.
But yeah, I think you have tobe careful that you don't put
because if you put too muchexpectation, you will get hurt.
The more expectation you haveon that person, when they fail
you, and they inevitably will,the more it's going to hurt.
Nancy Bruscher (21:37):
Yeah.
And maybe not in like a hugeway, right?
Like every pastor is not goingto have like a huge downfall,
like, but you are gonna, we allare going to make mistakes.
So then, yes, I totallyunderstand what you're saying.
So you said about identity.
Would you?
I we didn't say we were gonnatalk about this at all, but
someone who's listening who'slike, I don't really know what
you mean by identity.
(21:57):
All I know is like when I askyou three words or phrases, I
say mom, I say podcaster, I saywhy, child of God, you brought
up.
Would you say that's kind oflike your base identity?
Could you explain that a littlebit?
And like, why would we needmore than that, you think?
Scott Martin (22:13):
Yeah.
So in identity, the phrase thatI use, and I did not come up
with this, the apostle Paul didhe uses it all over the New
Testament, is in Christ.
Like you'll see that phrase allover the place.
Like, if anyone is in Christ,they're a new creation, I am I
am in Christ.
In the New Testament, this isreally how the New Testament
talks about faith.
We we tend to view faith aslike something we add on to who
(22:36):
we are.
So, like, if I'm not aChristian and then I become a
Christian, I kind of add onJesus to everything I already
do.
Whereas the word that's kind ofhistorically been used that I
kind of think is a good word,even though it's been used
really badly, is the wordconversion.
Because to convert is actuallyto become something different.
Like, I'm not just adding thison to what I already do.
(22:59):
I'm actually being and I thinkthat's a better picture of the
New Testament.
Because when you when youconvert, you are baptized, which
the whole idea behind baptismis to place yourself completely
into Jesus.
So my identity now becomes thatI am in Christ, and I share
everything that he shares, hisdeath, his resurrection, all of
(23:22):
that.
And so I'm always tempted tomake other things my identity.
Um, I think all of us, like ourcore identity, is we are made
in the image of God.
We're children of God.
Sin, like when you read throughthe scriptural story, sin is
what scars that image.
And so being in Christ is beingrestored into that original
image.
(23:42):
But that's the distinction Iwould make between in Christ and
just child of God.
All of us are children of God,made in the image of God, but in
Christ, we're being restored tothat.
And so that's always what Iwant my core identity to be.
Like I'm trying to live morelike Christ, but even it's not
always about me trying, it'salso about what God's spirit is
doing in me.
But every day I'm tempted tomake something else my identity,
(24:04):
whether that's, you know, afather, a husband, a pastor, or
sometimes it's pleasure, or Iwant to be known for this skill
or this talent.
You know, obviously,culturally, we find a lot of
identity, our identity insexuality, and all the like all
these, there's all thesedifferent things that compete
for like who am I?
Some of those things, I thinkwhen you get into like idolatry
(24:27):
and some of that's sinful.
Some of it, I mean, me being afather is not sinful.
Me being a husband is notsinful.
It's just not what I want mycore identity to be.
It's what I, it's who I am.
It's an important part of who Iam, it's a significant part of
who I am.
But at the end of the day, Iwant to be in Christ.
And what does that mean?
And how does that impact all ofthese other things?
(24:47):
When it comes to my being ahusband, when it comes to my
being a father or a pastor or ason or a brother or an uncle or
whatever else I am, those areall informed by that basic
identity that I am in Christ.
It's a struggle.
That's why Jesus said you dieto yourself every day.
But I I think I think that'swhere a lot of times going back
to what we were talking about,church hurt, church becomes such
(25:10):
a business, an industry.
This guy, Sky Jitani, who hehosts a podcast, he calls it the
what's his name for it, um, theChristian industrial complex.
I think it's what he calls it.
That it's this there's thishuge business, and there's
conferences and there's books,and and pastors like anybody
want to be good at what theywant to do and they want to be
successful.
(25:30):
And so I think a lot of timeswe start off in a good place.
Like most pastors I know, likethey're good people, and they
like got to it and they wantedto help people, and that's why
they went into this.
But somewhere along the way,you lose that identity and you
become something else.
Like, I'm not Scott in Christ,I'm Pastor Scott, and I lead
this church and I do all thesethings, and I have this many
(25:52):
staff, and we have this manygroups, and we have this many,
and you get lost, and that'swhen hurt happens.
That's when we're I mean, we'realways capable of hurting each
other, but I think that's whenwe really cause that hurt.
Like the the significant hurtthat yeah, that people and and
sometimes it may not even besignificant hurt in the
congregation, it may be ourfamily.
(26:14):
We may pastor the whole timeand the congregation thinks
we're great and we're there for40 years and we retire and right
off into the sunset.
But our family is completelywounded because we just we were
a total hypocrite or weneglected them, or it's sad,
it's sad, but that's a lot oftimes what and and please hear
me out.
I'm not trying to justify whypastors hurt people.
(26:35):
I think it's wrong.
I just think when you look atand this kind of gets back to a
question before, why is thechurch why did God use the
church if it's if it's flawedpeople?
It's we want so hard, we wantso much to be like this great
perfect church and this greatperfect leader, and so we tend
to kind of gloss over our ownstruggles.
(26:57):
I honestly think the more wecould embrace our humanity, the
better it would be, and the lesschurch hurt we'd have all the
way around.
Like if we were honest about ifwe were honest and vulnerable,
and if if as the church, likethere just always is within the
church, like there's and thereis culturality too.
Like you see it, like socialmedia is probably the worst.
(27:17):
Everybody on Instagram is like,look, my family's perfect, and
my family's great, and we allknow that right before we take
these pictures, we're fightingwith each other, like you know,
but there's this this culturalpressure to like we have it all
together, and I think thatexists with pastors, I think
that exists with congregationmembers, and so that's why
sometimes churches don't becomethese safe places to be
(27:38):
authentic, and it's not becausewe're trying to be hypocritical,
it's just like man, I just Ijust want everyone to think that
we're honoring God.
I just want everyone to thinkthat we've put God first and we
have it all, and somehow, ifwhatever, somehow our family's
struggling, my marriage isstruggling, my finances are
struggling, people are gonnaread that as I'm not faithful to
God.
(27:58):
And that's just not true.
You can be completely faithfulto God and be struggling in your
job or your finances or yourmarriage.
And so if we could just make itlike this side of heaven, we're
never gonna be there.
And so let's be okay with ourown humanity, let's be okay with
the humanity of our leaders,and yeah, let's hold each other
accountable and let's challengeeach other and and not make
excuses for the points at whichwe fail, but let's not pedestal
(28:21):
people, let's not haveunreasonable expectations.
Let's understand that sometimeseveryone's we're gonna let each
other down, we're gonnadisagree, we're gonna frustrate
each other.
And I think if we can do thatwith the little things, it may
prevent us from getting to thebig things.
Nancy Bruscher (28:35):
What I heard and what I've been like thinking
and praying about is that thisis so difficult.
This is so difficult as far aslike being real, but also I
think we're gonna talk about itas like far as like responding
and maybe healing from it.
Like there's just no black andwhite.
And what I was thinking was ishow I have it written down on
(28:56):
John 1:17, that grace and truthcame through Jesus Christ.
And I know you've talked aboutthat, and it and this is what
makes I feel like Christianityso I want to say difficult,
maybe, is that there's there'struth and there's grace, right?
There's these two things thatalmost feel like they're in
conflict with each other, andit's so hard to do both.
(29:18):
And that's why I think that aspeople, it's easier just to go
one way or the other, right?
Like I can either pick grace orI can pick truth, but to
actually do both is super hard.
And I feel like that's whatthis conversation is, is like
it's just hard, right?
Like there's not an easyanswer.
There's not like a oh, fix itor just do this and everything's
(29:38):
fine.
But I think that's just whatChristianity is, and I feel like
that's just what Jesus calls usto as well.
Scott Martin (29:45):
Yeah.
And I do think like we do talkabout that at the church.
Like, how do you embrace thattension?
Again, we we always want toresolve tension.
Like when you talk to peopleabout Jesus, everybody will kind
of have their favorite story.
Like, oh, I like when Jesusclears the temple, or I like
when Jesus washes his apostles'feet.
And it's like those twostories, for example, those are
both Jesus and those are bothvery different stories.
(30:07):
Jesus is both of those peopleat the same time.
He's not someone completelydifferent.
And so we always want toreconcile Jesus into like this
easy to understand.
So we either pigeonhole him aslike, oh, he's the the
truth-telling prophet, or no,he's the grace-filled pastor.
But no, he's he's both.
(30:28):
And so to follow Jesus is toembrace that tension of again to
your point in churches, it'slike, yeah, here's here's our or
here to what we're talkingabout, here's our church
leaders.
They're good, flawed people.
And how do we, you know, how dowe hold them accountable?
Like I do, and Paul says it,like, hey, church leaders should
be held to a higher standard.
But also it's okay that they'reflawed.
(30:50):
It's okay that they say thingsI disagree with.
It's okay that are going to getthings wrong sometimes, or
they're going to make a decisionthat's going to turn out to not
be the right decision.
And and and that's okay.
And again, if we let them failin the little things, then maybe
that stops it from getting big.
Because it's when you fail whenyou get all the criticism from
the and it's true in life too.
Like it should be okay forcongregation members to come
(31:12):
into churches and be like, yeah,I'm just you know what I'm just
struggling with this.
I'm not doing well with this.
This is an issue for me.
We don't have to jump to thislike, you know, you're horrible.
You're like you're a badChristian where your priorities
like life's not that easy.
It doesn't like it's you can bea faithful Christian and suffer
like Job.
Like it's it's not a it's not aformula.
(31:32):
It's not yeah how do we learnto live in that that I think the
best parents honestly learn tolive in that tension.
I mean you and I both have kidswhen you have kids and they
make a mistake it's like do Iforgive you?
Do I punish you?
There's not always one rightanswer.
Nancy Bruscher (31:48):
Right.
Scott Martin (31:49):
Like if I'll if I punish you severely every single
time our relationship'sprobably not going to be good.
But if I let you if I just ohit's okay it's okay it's okay
that's not good either.
But at the same time like ifyou just alternate between the
two then there's there's likethere's yeah there's no
stability there's no stabilityfor your kids and they're
(32:10):
they're not going to know howlike so it's it's just living in
that tension and like in thismoment man how do I respond?
What is the spirit doing inthis moment?
How do I respond in thismoment?
Um and it's not going to be thesame in every moment it's not
going to be the same in everysituation.
It's going to be a little bitfrustrating.
It may move slower at times butthat's okay.
Nancy Bruscher (32:30):
We had Jeff Phillips was a speaker and I
just got so much just God waslike yes this is important for
you guys to talk about because II have been I don't want to say
worried but I have been like Iwant to do this well.
Like I don't want to add morechurch hurt by talking about
this.
But it gave me such clarity hesaid this I wanted to read this
(32:50):
quote I have been hurt by peoplein the church we all have but I
have been healed by people inthe church through Jesus Christ.
That's the beauty of the churchnot perfection.
And I thought I just thoughtthat was such a clear concise
wonderful way to say that.
Scott Martin (33:08):
Yeah and he he has I mean he because he's been a
missionary for 50 years.
And so most everything thatthey do is funded by churches or
individuals in the US I meanthey have some connections in
Europe and things like that andand they try to do
self-sustaining self-fundingministries.
I know from talking to himthere's been some churches that
(33:31):
have treated him horriblyhorribly.
But yeah you hear in his storythat what brought him to faith
was a church.
It wasn't necessarily like thisthis great message it was this
group of people that loved oneanother that he could not
understand.
He couldn't make sense of whythey loved one another until he
found learned Jesus is is thefoundation of it.
(33:52):
But yeah that that is the ismost people when you talk to
most people a big part of theirhealing is the community of the
church because whatever our hurtis hurt always tends to isolate
us because it produces shameand it produces guilt or it
produces anger and whatever itis all those things push us away
(34:13):
from people and isolate us andthe more isolated we are that
stuff just grows and builds yeahJesus is the one that heals us
Jesus is the one that restoresusus is the one that redeems us
and and back to the questionwe've been wrestling with this
whole time why the churchbecause Jesus understands the
only way we heal is with eachother.
(34:33):
Healing doesn't happen on onyour own healing happens when
you can walk into a group ofpeople who know you're flawed
who know you're broken and whowill embrace you and who will
love you and who will be therefor you no matter what.
So if there is no church ifthere is no body there is no
reconciliation.
(34:54):
You would never experience it.
Like it would be a logicalthing that like okay maybe
logically I can make sense withthis but the body I mean that's
why you use that metaphor thebody the body is actually how
how we experience that and soyeah so where where the church
may be the source of ourlegitimate hurt that we
experienced rejection or abuseor whatever the only potential
(35:17):
for our healing is in thechurch.
The church truly being thechurch the church loving us even
with but that's where it getshard because if my hurt is from
the church do I want to go backthere?
Do I want to and that's wheresomebody like Jeff is an
inspiration to me.
Because here's a guy who willnever ever give up on the
church.
(35:37):
And he has a lot of reasons tobut he doesn't because if you've
seen the there there is nothingin my mind there's I mean I
like I said COVID was anightmare and I experienced a
lot of bad things.
But I have seen nothing in thisworld as beautiful as when the
church comes together.
They're just when you see itand experience it there's
nothing that matches it at all.
Nancy Bruscher (36:03):
Something else that he said that really stuck
with me is he just kept saying Ilove the church and you could
actually see and feel that hemeant it.
And a couple things came tomind one was that the church is
Jesus's bride and I'd love foryou to kind of talk about that
why we say that and also itreminded me of that if the
church is Jesus's bride whatdoes Jesus feel like when we
(36:27):
talk badly about it one but thenI also thought about like early
on in our marriage Chris and Iheard people that would put
their spouse down like when theywere away from them they would
just like I don't know like somesilly things and some terrible
things and you're like oh mygoodness like you're talking
about your spouse in this way.
And then I think how am Isupposed to now think about your
(36:49):
spouse right like it's veryhard now for me to think of that
person as good because you'vejust like slandered them.
So I thought that was sointeresting as far as like I
won't say anything bad about myhusband to like you or
something.
You know what I mean?
And he wouldn't do the sameabout me.
And are we doing the same aboutJesus' bride?
Scott Martin (37:11):
Yeah that's a good um I've actually heard pastors
do that just tell jokes abouttheir because sometimes you'll
see it like comedians like ifyou if you watch like comedians
be like oh my wife this my wifethat or whatever.
And and so that was acommitment that I had made early
on same thing like I'm nevergoing to speak down about my
wife ever.
One because I don't thinkthat's honoring to her and I
(37:32):
love her.
And and two like you said Ijust I don't think that's a good
example to like like because wetend to just add to each other.
So if one person complains andthe next person then we just
keep building and building butyeah too like we talked a little
bit about this like your bridelike when you talk about bride
and you could you could flip themetaphor around and say husband
too if you want to but youryour spouse most of us are going
(37:53):
to know like you would know youand Chris have been married for
a while like he's not perfect.
Right.
I know that I know that my wifeis not perfect.
I'm not going to stand here andsay everything about her is
perfect.
But at the same time you betternot talk trash about my wife
this is this is my wife this ismy bride this is I would do
anything for her I would give upanything for her.
As much as we may acknowledgeyou're not perfect, you still
(38:16):
don't back talk it.
Because one, it's just an issueof respect for her, but also
even for me.
And so I think Jesus using thatmetaphor of this is my bride
that lets us know how he feelsabout the church.
That the church isn't just someclub that he started like hey
here's this this club and youcan join it if you want to that
no this is my bride that I gavemy life for and yeah I know
(38:40):
she's not perfect.
And I'm not going to pretendthat she's perfect.
But when you talk bad about mybride I actually think I take
that harsher than than Lindawould.
Like if we found out thatsomeone was oh someone's saying
this about about my wife shewould be hurt and she would be
upset.
I actually think I'd be moreupset.
And I think that's probably theway that Jesus feels now I want
(39:03):
to be careful that I I do thinkit's okay and we should as a
church we should be able toacknowledge when we've messed up
we should we should we weshould be the first to admit you
know we got that wrong orthat's not right.
Or if someone sometimes we'reblind to that and someone calls
us out we should be able toadmit yes yes we we were wrong
we did that we repent but I dothink we have to be careful that
(39:28):
we're not getting intogossiping destroying Jesus bride
because again one day and Idon't I don't say this is a fear
thing but like one day we standbefore God one day we stand
before Jesus and it's like heywhat what did you say about my
bride?
How did you how did you treatmy bride?
Because how you treat the brideis an indication of of how you
(39:49):
treat Jesus and again I'm nottelling people like if if people
experienced like abuse orthings like that within the like
within the church there's awhole lot of difficulty that and
I'm not telling you you shouldget over it and go back to that
church and and I know there's along healing process but I I do
think we're not always alwayscognizant of who or what we're
(40:10):
talking about.
That this isn't just like youknow I like this organization or
I like that organization.
That this is the bride ofChrist of which his spirit is
alive within this body he'sredeeming it he's restoring it.
This is how he's working withinthe world and so too quickly we
just get mad and walk awaywhereas what would it be like
(40:33):
Jeff is a good example butthere's a lot of other people
that are examples to like manI'm gonna pour my everything
into making the bride of Christas good and as beautiful as it
can be because that's that'sthis this is this is the hope of
the world there there is nothis is the hope of the world
this is Jesus' bride this iswhat he's chosen this is what he
staked his mission on it's whathe staked his kind of
(40:55):
reputation on.
And so how do we build it upinstead of just tearing it down?
Yes how do we talk honestlyabout it?
How do we repent?
But how do we work to build itup to make it better as opposed
to just trashing it.
Nancy Bruscher (41:08):
Yeah and I think that that comes back to what we
were talking about like graceand truth right like things
don't need to be swept under therug and Jesus tells us how to
confront people right in Matthew18 he tells us how to do that.
So he's not saying like don'thave conversations right I
especially feel like it happenswith with like gossip or just
small things of the church or Idon't like the music or I don't
(41:30):
like this and they can becomebig things and you're like well
this is Jesus's bride though youguys this is like we're we're
his bride and also what I wasthinking was as we go to the
same church but there are alsoother churches right all over
the world.
And so to be respectful andloving of all churches and not
(41:51):
just someone that you go to ifthat makes sense because
especially with with like socialmedia you kind of know what
other churches are doing.
Scott Martin (42:00):
I mean sometimes you have friends that go to
other churches but sometimesyou'll just see a church will
put up an advertisement oryou'll see like a little reel or
something of this pastor.
And it's really easy to be likethat church is nuts or that
church is whacked or that churchis this or that church is that
but it's like no we are oneembodiment of this universal
family.
And so even though I may talkreal well about Southeast where
(42:21):
we go like oh Southeast is greatSoutheast is awesome if I'm
over here trashing this otherchurch well that's not any
better.
They're just as much his brideas as we are I have a friend a
guy in staff here actually wewere talking the other day even
that's one of his things aboutyou know Jesus says in in John
in the Last Supper as he'spraying that the world will know
(42:41):
that you've sent me really bythe oneness of the church.
And Steve, he's our missionspastor he was saying that he
goes yeah the world doesn't knowand partly to blame for that is
because the church isn't onebecause we're divided because we
divide amongst ourselves and wetalk bad about ourselves and we
gossip about ourselves and weput each other down that the
center of our witness is ourunity and our love for each
(43:05):
other that's founded on our lovefor Jesus.
Nancy Bruscher (43:08):
This has been so good Scott and we're almost at
an hour.
I can't believe it like wheredid the time go?
So I wanted to just ask ifthere is something that you're
like hey we need to we need tosay this before we just kind of
I have a couple closingquestions but is there something
that you're like hey we gottawe gotta share this before we
get off this topic.
Scott Martin (43:26):
For people that have experienced church hurt no
matter what that looks likeyou're an individual who's
experienced it from a leader oryou feel rejected from from the
church or maybe if you're even apastor that's felt rejected I
just one I just want toacknowledge that and say you
know we we see you and I thinkthat I think that's legitimate
and and I think that hurtsbecause pain always hurts the
worst when you experience itfrom places that you feel like
(43:48):
you shouldn't.
That's why it's hard fromfamily it's hard from the
church.
And as a church leader I just Iwant to apologize for that.
And I really do want to say I'msorry that we we should be
better.
We need to learn but I alsowant to encourage you to don't
let that be the end of yourjourney that that's why I think
a healthy view of church ahealthy view of leaders a
healthy view of pastors is herewe're all human.
(44:10):
Again that doesn't excuse somebut just what's one small step
we said it but I really believeit like a lot of times we get
hurt our our biggest hurts comefrom other people but that's
where our healing comes from tooand the church is an incredibly
healing community when it's atits best and so how how can you
begin to take a step?
Nancy Bruscher (44:32):
That's really good.
What is your favorite Bibleverse?
Scott Martin (44:36):
So my favorite verse is actually Acts 2024
where Paul's talking about hesays I consider my life worth
nothing if only I can finish thetask that the Lord Jesus has
given to me the task oftestifying to the good news kind
of like Paul I just kind offeel compelled by that.
Nancy Bruscher (44:50):
But that's what I I want to share good news with
people and I just like howconsuming that is well we're
wrapping up this series and I dopray that Jesus just met people
in their hearts that theylearned something.
Maybe if it wasn't evenanything like really about
church hurt but we talked aboutidentity and we talked about you
know being a bride and justlike a lot of things.
(45:11):
So I can't wait to hear how Godis going to use these words.
I'm just so thankful for thistime.
I really enjoyed it.
Scott Martin (45:18):
Yeah thank you Nancy I did too thank you so
much for for what you do and forthis and for having these
conversations it's important andI know it's really helpful for
people.
So thank you.
Nancy Bruscher (45:26):
Thank you.
On Ordinary PeopleExtraordinary Things your story
is his glory.
I pray that this conversationhas really impacted your heart.
I know it has for me.
I'm so thankful that you arepart of Ordinary People
Extraordinary things.
Thanks for continuing to listenand share these stories with
others.
I'll see you in two weeks for abrand new episode
It's Thanksgiving week, and I'm so
thankful for you.
Ordinary People ExtraordinaryThings Podcast would not be here
without you.
With a heart of thankfulness, Iwant to give you a couple of
quick stats.
We celebrated our four-yearanniversary this month of over
14,000 downloads in 113countries.
(00:21):
The number one downloadedcountry is the United States.
But Singapore is our secondmost downloaded country.
I am praying you practice evenmore gratefulness this season,
and I am truly grateful for you.
Thank you so much forlistening.
Thank you for sharing.
Now let's get started withScott Martin.
Welcome to Ordinary PeopleExtraordinary Things.
(00:42):
I'm so excited to have Scotton.
Scott, thanks for being on thepodcast.
Scott Martin (00:46):
Hey, it's my pleasure.
Thanks for inviting me to comeon and for a chance to talk.
Nancy Bruscher (00:50):
Yeah, I'm looking forward to our
conversation.
Yeah, me too.
If people don't know who youare, can you give three words or
phrases to describe yourself?
Scott Martin (00:59):
Yes.
So uh three words, I woulddescribe myself as uh playful,
studious, and stubborn.
So those are I like to have funand sometimes I probably have
too much fun because I try tohave fun with everything.
Um studious, I'm I like school.
Uh I like to study, I like tolearn, I like to read.
Uh, I tend to be a curiousperson, like I want to
(01:19):
understand things, and uh Icould be stubborn.
Ask anyone close to me, ask myfamily.
Sometimes that's a good thing,and sometimes it's a super
frustrating thing.
Nancy Bruscher (01:29):
Yeah.
I think almost allcharacteristics can be good and
bad, right?
I mean, there's some thataren't, but when I think of it,
it's just kind of how how youplay along the line of um Yeah,
definitely for sure.
Scott Martin (01:43):
And stubbornness, I think, runs in my family.
I think it's uh not myimmediate family.
Well, yeah, like I got it frommy dad.
So, you know, it's a it's amale hereditary trait in my
family.
Nancy Bruscher (01:54):
And what about studious?
Do you love studying probablyobviously the Bible since you're
a pastor, but are there otherthings you love to study?
Scott Martin (02:02):
A little bit.
Like I'll tell sometimes it'sjust things that like we're
doing as a family.
Like maybe we're going onvacation, it's like we're going
to Yellowstone.
It's like, oh, I want to learnabout Yellowstone.
Or um, sometimes it's things mykids will get into.
Like um, my son, especially,like, we'll do deep dives.
Like when he was younger, wegot way into like comic books
and Marvel.
And so we de dive deep divedeep, not into just like the
(02:22):
movies, but all the coneverything behind it.
So, I mean, yeah, I do have mymy primary interest for like
theology and ministry and thingslike that, Bible scripture, but
all kinds of stuff, really.
Nancy Bruscher (02:32):
So you've gotten like me, like, I know more
about Pokemon than I really careto know about because my son's
into Pokemon, but yeah.
Scott Martin (02:42):
Exactly.
Yeah, there's things that Inever knew about all these
superheroes and comic books, andyou know, there's the stuff you
you see in movies, but thenthere's the ongoing story for
the last 40 years or howeverlong they've been heroes.
So, but it's fun.
I find it interesting.
Nancy Bruscher (02:56):
That's awesome.
Well, we're gonna talk about, Iguess we'll just use the word
church hurt because that is acommon phrase, but I want to go
ahead and pray because I wantpeople to hear our hearts on it.
I think we're on the same pageabout like we want to talk about
this.
It's an important thing to talkabout because that word, that
(03:16):
phrase is out there.
But I we also know that thereare people that have truly,
truly been hurt by people in thechurch.
And we want to make sure thatwe're that they're hearing like
our hearts behind it, if thatmakes sense.
Yeah.
Perfect.
Let's pray.
God, thank you so much for thistime together.
We give it to you, God.
(03:37):
Scott and I probably both havethings that we think we're going
to say.
We've maybe thought about somethings, but God, we're gonna
just give that all to you.
Help us to have our words beyour words.
Help that any miss sayings thatwe say, that people will will
not hear that, that they'll heargrace, that they'll hear truth
and love and you through thisconversation, God.
(03:59):
And anyone who's been hurt bypeople, have that be any people,
right?
This could bring up a lot ofemotions for anyone, God.
And we just ask that you arethere with them as they listen
to this podcast.
Help us to not just stay in thehurt, but learn how to come out
of it or learn how to um justgrow from it, God.
(04:22):
And so that's why we always dothis at Ordinary People,
extraordinary things, is we wantto land on hope.
We want to land on you.
So have this podcast glorifyyou.
Amen.
Scott Martin (04:32):
Amen.
Nancy Bruscher (04:34):
So this fun topic.
Scott Martin (04:38):
It's an easy one.
Nancy Bruscher (04:39):
Yeah, like let's just breeze through it.
I have actually, this is onethat I I've really gone to
scripture on.
I've been really praying aboutit because, like I said, it I
want this to be glorifying.
I don't want this just to belike, well, let's just put
people down or let's just tellour stories or anything like
that.
But also we know that this isthe world that we live in.
(04:59):
And so I don't also want tojust gloss over something that
probably everyone who's been ina church, just like if you've
been in any relationship at anytime, you've been hurt by
people, right?
And so, but there is thisphrase that people in the church
and out of the church know, andit's church hurt.
So, what do you think thatphrase means, maybe to people in
(05:22):
the church or maybe outside thechurch?
Do you think that people arethinking the same definition?
Scott Martin (05:29):
Yeah, um, that's a that's a really good question.
And I think not always.
Um, I mean, church hurt, if youjust take the basic definition,
could be any hurt youexperience inside the church.
But generally, when people useit, I hear them refer to one of
two things.
Um, the first and most common,I think, is specifically hurt
(05:51):
from church leadership.
So, and again, depending onyour denomination or church
structure, that could be staffmembers, elders, board members,
sometimes even key volunteerleaders.
Um, and it's hurt that isalmost like an abuse of power,
kind of that that this personwas, and in most cases, a
(06:12):
trusted person.
Like I trusted you as mypastor, my leader, my shepherd,
and you betrayed that inwhatever way you betrayed that.
That's the first way I hear itused.
I think the second most commonway is more of a general where
someone feels, usually for forsome situation in their life,
(06:33):
they feel rejected by the largerchurch.
So maybe they went throughsomething, could be uh like a
divorce or something like that.
And it's like I just feltrejected by the church at large.
Um, generally, this is notalways true, but like when when
congregation members, when theydisagree, I guess you could call
that church hurt, but I don'tmost often hear people refer it
(06:54):
to that.
Usually, again, like I said,it's one of the not always, not
always.
And that's my experience, maybeyours is different, um, but
it's from a leadership or justan overall, I felt rejected by
the church at large.
Nancy Bruscher (07:05):
Okay, that's good to, yeah, that's good to
know where you where you've seenthat.
How do you think that thishurts people who are not in the
church?
If they have this common phrasethat we see, do you think
that's hurting people fromwanting to be a part of the
church?
Scott Martin (07:21):
Yeah, I'm I mean, I do think it really does
because you know, anytimewhatever the group is, you can
pick whatever group.
If you hear something bad aboutthe church or the this group,
hey, this group is whatever,selfish, manipulative.
It makes you not want to dothat.
And I think the term churchhurt, I want to be careful when
I say this.
(07:42):
And so I hope I hope you'llhear my heart on this.
I feel sometimes like we use itkind of like we use the word
trauma, that I'm really gratefulthat we live in a culture that
recognizes trauma.
Because I think for a long timewe just didn't.
We just like, oh, you're fine,get over it, like walk it off,
you're gonna you're gonna beokay.
But now that we recognize that,like, no, there's people have
(08:03):
experienced real trauma and thatdoes things to you.
I think that's I think that'shealthy.
I do think sometimes as peoplewe overuse that and we'll say
things like, oh, this was thiswas trauma.
And it's like, well, no, itwasn't good, but it wasn't
necessarily trauma.
And I kind of feel the same waywith church hurt, that like I
(08:24):
don't want to deny that thereare some people within the
church that have done somehorrific things.
There just are.
They have abused their power,um, they've manipulated people,
and that's the stuff I need tothink.
I I think sometimes we need toseparate from just we're we're
human beings.
Because like, yeah, I I am I'ma pastor, I'm a pastor to
church, and I understand thatcomes with a certain amount of
(08:47):
responsibility and and and andtrust.
But I also think there's adifference between me as a
person, Scott, I let you down,and me as a pastor, I literally
abused my my role.
Because like if you know anyonefor long enough, like I'm gonna
let you down.
Like if you know me long enoughin some way or another, and it
(09:07):
could be something little like,you know, I took your parking
spot in the parking lot.
Like you and I were like maybeI was a jerk about it, maybe I
cut you off.
But that wouldn't be likechurch hurt.
That would just be, oh, Scottcould be selfish sometimes.
And whereas church hurt, Ithink, is is really no, in my
position as a pastor, Imanipulated that and I caused
(09:30):
real damage.
And and also even to the otherone where it's like, hey, the
church in general kind of turnedhis back on me, that does
happen.
I mean, I've seen it happen,but I've also seen sometimes
where where maybe one person wasmean to you, and then we spread
that out, just blame the wholechurch.
And so I think it's a realthing.
Like, I don't I I I hope I'mmaking that clear.
(09:50):
Like, I think church churchhurt is real, but I also think
we need to be careful betweenlike what is actually church
hurt and what is hey, this isone human who who messed up and
was mean or was rude or or youknow, but they're one, they're
not representative of the entirebody of Christ.
(10:12):
And two, this wasn't a case ofa pastor and elder actually
misusing their authority insomeone's life, if that makes
sense at all.
Nancy Bruscher (10:22):
Yeah, it does.
It does.
And I don't I don't want to getinto like the nitty-gritty of
things, but have you been saidthat you caused that to someone,
or that that you have felt thatway, or have you kind of been
able to take take what you justsaid and said, you know, that's
like more of a one-on-one, oryou were able to see the grace,
(10:44):
or you know, because obviouslyyou've been pastoring for a long
time.
You have been hurt by people,right?
Because that's it'sunfortunately just how we are as
humans.
I think I want to get into thisof like, why did God choose us?
What why?
Why?
Like, we are all so broken.
Like, even when we're like atour best, I'm doing air quotes
(11:06):
for anyone listening, like,we're still so broken.
So it's like, so why did Goduse the church, his bride, for
his plan for restoration, right?
Like that's mind-boggling tome.
And sometimes I'm like, really,God, this is what you came up
with.
But do you have any thoughts onthat?
Scott Martin (11:26):
Yeah, you said something there, though, that
you and I talked about itearlier, but it is a little
interesting that I think there'sanother side of church hurt,
and and I don't I don't want tolook at this like I'm trying to
compare it because I'm not, butthere is another side of church
hurt that I think sometimeschurch leaders experience where
they feel hurt by thecongregation.
Like I know I've talked aboutit a little bit, but that was my
(11:46):
family's experience duringCOVID.
And so I again, I don't want toget into nitty-gritty, I don't
want to blame people, but Ithink that happens too.
I think it was Gene Apple,who's he's a pastor at East
Side, a big church inCalifornia.
I think it was him who said it.
I could be wrong, but he said,you know, as as a minister,
sometimes, as a pastor,sometimes there's wounds that we
have within the church that wemay not experience healing from
(12:07):
this side of heaven.
And it just there is that,because there's a lot that's
that's put on church leadersthat, and again, it depends on
your specific domination.
So it could be pastors, couldbe elders, shepherds, deacons,
whatever, but there's a lot thatgets put on them that that if
we're not careful as churches,we can actually end up wounding
(12:27):
leaders because we expect toomuch from them, we put them on
pedestals, we blame them foreverything.
And so it it does kind of goboth ways.
There is that, and to yourpoint, it's because we're broken
people.
Like we're flawed people.
The I don't care if you're thepastor, the worship leader, or I
don't care if you're an averageattender, like everyone in the
(12:47):
church is a broken and andflawed person.
We don't want to be.
And especially I think this iswhy a lot of a lot of church
hurt happens from leadership, isa lot of times pastors,
leaders, elders, things likethat, because I know your
husband was an elder atSoutheast over the last couple
of years, and I'm sure heprobably has his own stories on,
(13:08):
I guess, would be both sides ofwhat that looks like.
But there's this this desirethat like we want to know and we
want to be right.
And and and it's not always aselfish thing.
Sometimes it's just rooted in,you know, I have this
responsibility for this churchthat I'm a part of leading, and
and I want to be able to like,this is exactly what we're
doing, and this is exactly, butI mean, God scripturally, God
(13:31):
leads us one step at a time.
And so sometimes, especiallywhen you get into something as
crazy as COVID or you get intolike some wild situation, I
can't stand up here and tell youthat.
I don't fully know.
And even if you narrow it downto like a specific situation,
like maybe you're just talkingto one person and they're
sharing something big in theirlife, like, hey, this is this
trend, and you want to be ableto provide clarity.
Like, I want to look at you andsay, This is what you should
(13:54):
do.
This is, I don't always know.
Like, I'm not God, I'm not thespirit.
So, I mean, I think in thosemoments we can be attentive
together, we can discerntogether, but I think a lot of
times it's out of a place ofdeep insecurity that pastors end
up causing hurt.
Because like they're trying tojust, I'm trying to be clear,
I'm trying to be strong, I thinkthis is the right thing to do.
And and so, in some ways, it'slike this lack of humility that
(14:18):
actually leads us to causinghurt and pain and damage because
we're trying to projectcertainty that we don't have,
that we don't know, that thatthat we don't feel.
And I think sometimes too, thesame thing goes the other way
around.
Because when I look at COVID, Ithink a lot of the hurt that
was done to my family wasthrough the uncertainty of the
congregation.
Like you had all the chaos ofpeople like, what do we do?
(14:40):
Where do we go?
And and you know, we'restanding up there like, hey,
we're trying to be faithful andwe're gonna take this one step
at a time.
And people were just scared andthey were angry and they were
afraid.
And so that turns to, you know,judgment and attacking.
And so the irony of it is Ithink a lot of it is rooted in
our like we wound, like it's thewhat's the phrase, hurt people,
(15:02):
hurt people.
Nancy Bruscher (15:02):
Yeah.
Scott Martin (15:03):
Like it's out of our own security, but we hide it
because we don't want to comeacross.
Like, I don't want to stand upas a pastor and be like, hey,
here we are, and I don't knowwhat we're doing.
We're gonna, we're gonna, we'regonna stay faithful.
Right.
We're gonna we're gonna stayfaithful and we're gonna figure
this out together.
And but then yeah, then thatthat begs exactly that question
you're talking about is wellthen God, why is this the
(15:25):
instrument that you chose tobank everything on?
I mean, that's my friend Jeffhe spoke to us last weekend.
That's what he said.
He goes, There is no plan B.
Nancy Bruscher (15:32):
There's no plan B.
This is it, the church.
And you're like, what?
Yeah, what some things that I Iheard you say really came up as
as Chris became a leader, anelder in the church.
Um, people came up, and one ofthe things that they said is
leadership is lonely.
And then actually, Brad Nelson,he was on my podcast and he
said the same thing.
He was a pastor for years, andhe's like, leader leading is so
(15:56):
lonely.
And so I just want to kind ofput that out there again because
I think that sometimes peoplemight look at you, Scott, and be
like, oh, like everyone loveshim, or everyone hates him, like
either one, right?
But like, let's say, like, likeeveryone loves you, but I think
that there's still like this,and maybe you're gonna be like,
no, I don't feel like that, butthere's still like this
(16:19):
loneliness that happens becausea lot of times people want
something from you, or um,they're expecting something from
you, or more than you're ableto give as a human being.
And so that kind of makes itlonely and lonely.
And then that that can alsobecome a problem.
That can lead to to some ofthese issues maybe as well.
Scott Martin (16:39):
Yeah, I think it leads to a lot of them because
when you get that lonely, wheredo you go?
If I'm struggling, if I'mhurting, if I'm whatever I got
going on, where do I go?
Then you don't deal with it andit builds up and it builds up,
and then it sometimes leads toepic failures and meltdowns that
impact the whole church.
I think it is lonely.
I think it's very lonely.
It's kind of a joke with thestaff that when I came, I told
(17:01):
them, I was like, I don't, Idon't ever have anyone call me
Pastor Scott.
I just go by Scott.
And it's not like I reject thattitle, and if people use it,
I'm not like, don't call methat.
But one of the things I'vetalked about when I've done like
ordinations is pastor is what Ido.
It's not what I am.
And I know some people aregonna push back with that and
(17:22):
disagree with that.
And but let me explain what Imean by that.
Like ordination, when someone'sordained, which is the process
where the church recognizes youand you officially become a
pastor, ordination is arecognition of function.
It's hey, God has called you tothis, to this vocation, to this
duty within the church.
But there will be a time whenI'm not a pastor, but I'm still
(17:44):
Scott, I'm still a child of God,I'm still a part of the
kingdom.
But for this time, for thisseason, this is my role within
within the church.
And so I want to steward thatwell, but I also don't want that
to be my identity.
Like my identity has to be thatI'm a child of God.
And so if tomorrow I am nolonger a pastor because I can't
(18:06):
be, or whatever, like that can'tbe that can't be my identity.
And so I think a lot of timesit's it's true of all people,
like we tend to find ouridentity in what we do.
You know, I'm a I'm a teacher,I'm a lawyer, but I think it can
be more damaging as a pastor ifI find my identity in any
church leader, like if I find mycore identity in I'm a pastor,
(18:26):
I'm an elder, I'm a this,because then if that becomes
threatened, like if so, if youfeel like, hey, there's people
in the church that don't likewhat I'm saying, there's people
that don't like what I'm doing,you take that as a threat, and
then you're lonely, you'reisolated, this is your identity,
you become so I I really dothink part of it is pastors,
(18:47):
church leaders developing thathealthy identity that, hey, this
is where God has called me forthis season, and I'll serve
faithfully as long as thisseason is.
But at the end of the day, thisthis doesn't define me.
Yeah.
Like you you take this awayfrom me, and I'm still just as
valuable in the church and inthe kingdom of God, even if I'm
not teaching or or or preaching.
Nancy Bruscher (19:10):
That's that's actually really profound, Scott.
I really, I really appreciatethat.
And then maybe also if peopleare listening and they're like,
hey, I'm not a pastor, I'm notuh in leadership, but then also
maybe realizing that to think ofthem just as Scott, just as
yeah, just as that person too,and not kind of weighing that on
extra does that I don't know ifI put that correctly.
Scott Martin (19:33):
Yeah, because I think most of us probably try to
find our identity in somethingexternal.
Sure.
Because for a lot of people,it's like, oh, I'm I'm a mom or
I'm a dad, or like we said, myjob, or I don't know, I'm a
runner, or like there's thisexternal thing.
But again, what happens if ifyou can't do that?
What happens if you can't runit?
(19:55):
What happens when your kidsgrow up and move out of the
house and they're independent?
What's left at that point?
And and so that's where havingthat healthy sense of identity
of, hey, I'm a child of God.
And I think sometimes too, ushaving that same expectation of
other people, like I think it'sokay in churches.
We tend to, because we'reAmerican culture, we tend to
(20:16):
like place people on pedestalsand we do that with pastors, and
that's that's not healthy for awhole lot of reasons.
It's not healthy, it's notfair.
Um, pastors shouldn't becelebrities, they're pastors.
I remember my mentor, he toldme, he goes, it has to be enough
that you're the pastor of thischurch.
He goes, if you need somethingmore, like I need a national
following and I need a a bookdeal or I need an international
(20:38):
podcast or something.
He goes, Maybe those thingscome, they come for some people,
but it has to be enough thatyou're the pastor of a local
church because that's that'swhat God has called you to.
And so I think having thatsense of identity about
ourselves and being okay withthat, but also having it for
other people.
And when it comes to pastors,knowing, like, hey, this
person's the pastor here.
So yeah, I can go to them forthings.
(20:59):
I can go to them for forguidance, I can go to them for
questions.
They may not have all theanswers, like they're they're
not God.
They probably have some kind oftraining or expertise in
scripture, Bible, theology, theycan probably be helpful, but
they're not going to solve myproblems.
They're not my savior.
Jesus is.
Yeah, it's okay to rely on apastor, to trust a pastor, to go
(21:23):
to a pastor in those times ofneeds.
But yeah, I think you have tobe careful that you don't put
because if you put too muchexpectation, you will get hurt.
The more expectation you haveon that person, when they fail
you, and they inevitably will,the more it's going to hurt.
Nancy Bruscher (21:37):
Yeah.
And maybe not in like a hugeway, right?
Like every pastor is not goingto have like a huge downfall,
like, but you are gonna, we allare going to make mistakes.
So then, yes, I totallyunderstand what you're saying.
So you said about identity.
Would you?
I we didn't say we were gonnatalk about this at all, but
someone who's listening who'slike, I don't really know what
you mean by identity.
(21:57):
All I know is like when I askyou three words or phrases, I
say mom, I say podcaster, I saywhy, child of God, you brought
up.
Would you say that's kind oflike your base identity?
Could you explain that a littlebit?
And like, why would we needmore than that, you think?
Scott Martin (22:13):
Yeah.
So in identity, the phrase thatI use, and I did not come up
with this, the apostle Paul didhe uses it all over the New
Testament, is in Christ.
Like you'll see that phrase allover the place.
Like, if anyone is in Christ,they're a new creation, I am I
am in Christ.
In the New Testament, this isreally how the New Testament
talks about faith.
We we tend to view faith aslike something we add on to who
(22:36):
we are.
So, like, if I'm not aChristian and then I become a
Christian, I kind of add onJesus to everything I already
do.
Whereas the word that's kind ofhistorically been used that I
kind of think is a good word,even though it's been used
really badly, is the wordconversion.
Because to convert is actuallyto become something different.
Like, I'm not just adding thison to what I already do.
(22:59):
I'm actually being and I thinkthat's a better picture of the
New Testament.
Because when you when youconvert, you are baptized, which
the whole idea behind baptismis to place yourself completely
into Jesus.
So my identity now becomes thatI am in Christ, and I share
everything that he shares, hisdeath, his resurrection, all of
(23:22):
that.
And so I'm always tempted tomake other things my identity.
Um, I think all of us, like ourcore identity, is we are made
in the image of God.
We're children of God.
Sin, like when you read throughthe scriptural story, sin is
what scars that image.
And so being in Christ is beingrestored into that original
image.
(23:42):
But that's the distinction Iwould make between in Christ and
just child of God.
All of us are children of God,made in the image of God, but in
Christ, we're being restored tothat.
And so that's always what Iwant my core identity to be.
Like I'm trying to live morelike Christ, but even it's not
always about me trying, it'salso about what God's spirit is
doing in me.
But every day I'm tempted tomake something else my identity,
(24:04):
whether that's, you know, afather, a husband, a pastor, or
sometimes it's pleasure, or Iwant to be known for this skill
or this talent.
You know, obviously,culturally, we find a lot of
identity, our identity insexuality, and all the like all
these, there's all thesedifferent things that compete
for like who am I?
Some of those things, I thinkwhen you get into like idolatry
(24:27):
and some of that's sinful.
Some of it, I mean, me being afather is not sinful.
Me being a husband is notsinful.
It's just not what I want mycore identity to be.
It's what I, it's who I am.
It's an important part of who Iam, it's a significant part of
who I am.
But at the end of the day, Iwant to be in Christ.
And what does that mean?
And how does that impact all ofthese other things?
(24:47):
When it comes to my being ahusband, when it comes to my
being a father or a pastor or ason or a brother or an uncle or
whatever else I am, those areall informed by that basic
identity that I am in Christ.
It's a struggle.
That's why Jesus said you dieto yourself every day.
But I I think I think that'swhere a lot of times going back
to what we were talking about,church hurt, church becomes such
(25:10):
a business, an industry.
This guy, Sky Jitani, who hehosts a podcast, he calls it the
what's his name for it, um, theChristian industrial complex.
I think it's what he calls it.
That it's this there's thishuge business, and there's
conferences and there's books,and and pastors like anybody
want to be good at what theywant to do and they want to be
successful.
(25:30):
And so I think a lot of timeswe start off in a good place.
Like most pastors I know, likethey're good people, and they
like got to it and they wantedto help people, and that's why
they went into this.
But somewhere along the way,you lose that identity and you
become something else.
Like, I'm not Scott in Christ,I'm Pastor Scott, and I lead
this church and I do all thesethings, and I have this many
(25:52):
staff, and we have this manygroups, and we have this many,
and you get lost, and that'swhen hurt happens.
That's when we're I mean, we'realways capable of hurting each
other, but I think that's whenwe really cause that hurt.
Like the the significant hurtthat yeah, that people and and
sometimes it may not even besignificant hurt in the
congregation, it may be ourfamily.
(26:14):
We may pastor the whole timeand the congregation thinks
we're great and we're there for40 years and we retire and right
off into the sunset.
But our family is completelywounded because we just we were
a total hypocrite or weneglected them, or it's sad,
it's sad, but that's a lot oftimes what and and please hear
me out.
I'm not trying to justify whypastors hurt people.
(26:35):
I think it's wrong.
I just think when you look atand this kind of gets back to a
question before, why is thechurch why did God use the
church if it's if it's flawedpeople?
It's we want so hard, we wantso much to be like this great
perfect church and this greatperfect leader, and so we tend
to kind of gloss over our ownstruggles.
(26:57):
I honestly think the more wecould embrace our humanity, the
better it would be, and the lesschurch hurt we'd have all the
way around.
Like if we were honest about ifwe were honest and vulnerable,
and if if as the church, likethere just always is within the
church, like there's and thereis culturality too.
Like you see it, like socialmedia is probably the worst.
(27:17):
Everybody on Instagram is like,look, my family's perfect, and
my family's great, and we allknow that right before we take
these pictures, we're fightingwith each other, like you know,
but there's this this culturalpressure to like we have it all
together, and I think thatexists with pastors, I think
that exists with congregationmembers, and so that's why
sometimes churches don't becomethese safe places to be
(27:38):
authentic, and it's not becausewe're trying to be hypocritical,
it's just like man, I just Ijust want everyone to think that
we're honoring God.
I just want everyone to thinkthat we've put God first and we
have it all, and somehow, ifwhatever, somehow our family's
struggling, my marriage isstruggling, my finances are
struggling, people are gonnaread that as I'm not faithful to
God.
(27:58):
And that's just not true.
You can be completely faithfulto God and be struggling in your
job or your finances or yourmarriage.
And so if we could just make itlike this side of heaven, we're
never gonna be there.
And so let's be okay with ourown humanity, let's be okay with
the humanity of our leaders,and yeah, let's hold each other
accountable and let's challengeeach other and and not make
excuses for the points at whichwe fail, but let's not pedestal
(28:21):
people, let's not haveunreasonable expectations.
Let's understand that sometimeseveryone's we're gonna let each
other down, we're gonnadisagree, we're gonna frustrate
each other.
And I think if we can do thatwith the little things, it may
prevent us from getting to thebig things.
Nancy Bruscher (28:35):
What I heard and what I've been like thinking
and praying about is that thisis so difficult.
This is so difficult as far aslike being real, but also I
think we're gonna talk about itas like far as like responding
and maybe healing from it.
Like there's just no black andwhite.
And what I was thinking was ishow I have it written down on
(28:56):
John 1:17, that grace and truthcame through Jesus Christ.
And I know you've talked aboutthat, and it and this is what
makes I feel like Christianityso I want to say difficult,
maybe, is that there's there'struth and there's grace, right?
There's these two things thatalmost feel like they're in
conflict with each other, andit's so hard to do both.
(29:18):
And that's why I think that aspeople, it's easier just to go
one way or the other, right?
Like I can either pick grace orI can pick truth, but to
actually do both is super hard.
And I feel like that's whatthis conversation is, is like
it's just hard, right?
Like there's not an easyanswer.
There's not like a oh, fix itor just do this and everything's
(29:38):
fine.
But I think that's just whatChristianity is, and I feel like
that's just what Jesus calls usto as well.
Scott Martin (29:45):
Yeah.
And I do think like we do talkabout that at the church.
Like, how do you embrace thattension?
Again, we we always want toresolve tension.
Like when you talk to peopleabout Jesus, everybody will kind
of have their favorite story.
Like, oh, I like when Jesusclears the temple, or I like
when Jesus washes his apostles'feet.
And it's like those twostories, for example, those are
both Jesus and those are bothvery different stories.
(30:07):
Jesus is both of those peopleat the same time.
He's not someone completelydifferent.
And so we always want toreconcile Jesus into like this
easy to understand.
So we either pigeonhole him aslike, oh, he's the the
truth-telling prophet, or no,he's the grace-filled pastor.
But no, he's he's both.
(30:28):
And so to follow Jesus is toembrace that tension of again to
your point in churches, it'slike, yeah, here's here's our or
here to what we're talkingabout, here's our church
leaders.
They're good, flawed people.
And how do we, you know, how dowe hold them accountable?
Like I do, and Paul says it,like, hey, church leaders should
be held to a higher standard.
But also it's okay that they'reflawed.
(30:50):
It's okay that they say thingsI disagree with.
It's okay that are going to getthings wrong sometimes, or
they're going to make a decisionthat's going to turn out to not
be the right decision.
And and and that's okay.
And again, if we let them failin the little things, then maybe
that stops it from getting big.
Because it's when you fail whenyou get all the criticism from
the and it's true in life too.
Like it should be okay forcongregation members to come
(31:12):
into churches and be like, yeah,I'm just you know what I'm just
struggling with this.
I'm not doing well with this.
This is an issue for me.
We don't have to jump to thislike, you know, you're horrible.
You're like you're a badChristian where your priorities
like life's not that easy.
It doesn't like it's you can bea faithful Christian and suffer
like Job.
Like it's it's not a it's not aformula.
(31:32):
It's not yeah how do we learnto live in that that I think the
best parents honestly learn tolive in that tension.
I mean you and I both have kidswhen you have kids and they
make a mistake it's like do Iforgive you?
Do I punish you?
There's not always one rightanswer.
Nancy Bruscher (31:48):
Right.
Scott Martin (31:49):
Like if I'll if I punish you severely every single
time our relationship'sprobably not going to be good.
But if I let you if I just ohit's okay it's okay it's okay
that's not good either.
But at the same time like ifyou just alternate between the
two then there's there's likethere's yeah there's no
stability there's no stabilityfor your kids and they're
(32:10):
they're not going to know howlike so it's it's just living in
that tension and like in thismoment man how do I respond?
What is the spirit doing inthis moment?
How do I respond in thismoment?
Um and it's not going to be thesame in every moment it's not
going to be the same in everysituation.
It's going to be a little bitfrustrating.
It may move slower at times butthat's okay.
Nancy Bruscher (32:30):
We had Jeff Phillips was a speaker and I
just got so much just God waslike yes this is important for
you guys to talk about because II have been I don't want to say
worried but I have been like Iwant to do this well.
Like I don't want to add morechurch hurt by talking about
this.
But it gave me such clarity hesaid this I wanted to read this
(32:50):
quote I have been hurt by peoplein the church we all have but I
have been healed by people inthe church through Jesus Christ.
That's the beauty of the churchnot perfection.
And I thought I just thoughtthat was such a clear concise
wonderful way to say that.
Scott Martin (33:08):
Yeah and he he has I mean he because he's been a
missionary for 50 years.
And so most everything thatthey do is funded by churches or
individuals in the US I meanthey have some connections in
Europe and things like that andand they try to do
self-sustaining self-fundingministries.
I know from talking to himthere's been some churches that
(33:31):
have treated him horriblyhorribly.
But yeah you hear in his storythat what brought him to faith
was a church.
It wasn't necessarily like thisthis great message it was this
group of people that loved oneanother that he could not
understand.
He couldn't make sense of whythey loved one another until he
found learned Jesus is is thefoundation of it.
(33:52):
But yeah that that is the ismost people when you talk to
most people a big part of theirhealing is the community of the
church because whatever our hurtis hurt always tends to isolate
us because it produces shameand it produces guilt or it
produces anger and whatever itis all those things push us away
(34:13):
from people and isolate us andthe more isolated we are that
stuff just grows and builds yeahJesus is the one that heals us
Jesus is the one that restoresusus is the one that redeems us
and and back to the questionwe've been wrestling with this
whole time why the churchbecause Jesus understands the
only way we heal is with eachother.
(34:33):
Healing doesn't happen on onyour own healing happens when
you can walk into a group ofpeople who know you're flawed
who know you're broken and whowill embrace you and who will
love you and who will be therefor you no matter what.
So if there is no church ifthere is no body there is no
reconciliation.
(34:54):
You would never experience it.
Like it would be a logicalthing that like okay maybe
logically I can make sense withthis but the body I mean that's
why you use that metaphor thebody the body is actually how
how we experience that and soyeah so where where the church
may be the source of ourlegitimate hurt that we
experienced rejection or abuseor whatever the only potential
(35:17):
for our healing is in thechurch.
The church truly being thechurch the church loving us even
with but that's where it getshard because if my hurt is from
the church do I want to go backthere?
Do I want to and that's wheresomebody like Jeff is an
inspiration to me.
Because here's a guy who willnever ever give up on the
church.
(35:37):
And he has a lot of reasons tobut he doesn't because if you've
seen the there there is nothingin my mind there's I mean I
like I said COVID was anightmare and I experienced a
lot of bad things.
But I have seen nothing in thisworld as beautiful as when the
church comes together.
They're just when you see itand experience it there's
nothing that matches it at all.
Nancy Bruscher (36:03):
Something else that he said that really stuck
with me is he just kept saying Ilove the church and you could
actually see and feel that hemeant it.
And a couple things came tomind one was that the church is
Jesus's bride and I'd love foryou to kind of talk about that
why we say that and also itreminded me of that if the
church is Jesus's bride whatdoes Jesus feel like when we
(36:27):
talk badly about it one but thenI also thought about like early
on in our marriage Chris and Iheard people that would put
their spouse down like when theywere away from them they would
just like I don't know like somesilly things and some terrible
things and you're like oh mygoodness like you're talking
about your spouse in this way.
And then I think how am Isupposed to now think about your
(36:49):
spouse right like it's veryhard now for me to think of that
person as good because you'vejust like slandered them.
So I thought that was sointeresting as far as like I
won't say anything bad about myhusband to like you or
something.
You know what I mean?
And he wouldn't do the sameabout me.
And are we doing the same aboutJesus' bride?
Scott Martin (37:11):
Yeah that's a good um I've actually heard pastors
do that just tell jokes abouttheir because sometimes you'll
see it like comedians like ifyou if you watch like comedians
be like oh my wife this my wifethat or whatever.
And and so that was acommitment that I had made early
on same thing like I'm nevergoing to speak down about my
wife ever.
One because I don't thinkthat's honoring to her and I
(37:32):
love her.
And and two like you said Ijust I don't think that's a good
example to like like because wetend to just add to each other.
So if one person complains andthe next person then we just
keep building and building butyeah too like we talked a little
bit about this like your bridelike when you talk about bride
and you could you could flip themetaphor around and say husband
too if you want to but youryour spouse most of us are going
(37:53):
to know like you would know youand Chris have been married for
a while like he's not perfect.
Right.
I know that I know that my wifeis not perfect.
I'm not going to stand here andsay everything about her is
perfect.
But at the same time you betternot talk trash about my wife
this is this is my wife this ismy bride this is I would do
anything for her I would give upanything for her.
As much as we may acknowledgeyou're not perfect, you still
(38:16):
don't back talk it.
Because one, it's just an issueof respect for her, but also
even for me.
And so I think Jesus using thatmetaphor of this is my bride
that lets us know how he feelsabout the church.
That the church isn't just someclub that he started like hey
here's this this club and youcan join it if you want to that
no this is my bride that I gavemy life for and yeah I know
(38:40):
she's not perfect.
And I'm not going to pretendthat she's perfect.
But when you talk bad about mybride I actually think I take
that harsher than than Lindawould.
Like if we found out thatsomeone was oh someone's saying
this about about my wife shewould be hurt and she would be
upset.
I actually think I'd be moreupset.
And I think that's probably theway that Jesus feels now I want
(39:03):
to be careful that I I do thinkit's okay and we should as a
church we should be able toacknowledge when we've messed up
we should we should we weshould be the first to admit you
know we got that wrong orthat's not right.
Or if someone sometimes we'reblind to that and someone calls
us out we should be able toadmit yes yes we we were wrong
we did that we repent but I dothink we have to be careful that
(39:28):
we're not getting intogossiping destroying Jesus bride
because again one day and Idon't I don't say this is a fear
thing but like one day we standbefore God one day we stand
before Jesus and it's like heywhat what did you say about my
bride?
How did you how did you treatmy bride?
Because how you treat the brideis an indication of of how you
(39:49):
treat Jesus and again I'm nottelling people like if if people
experienced like abuse orthings like that within the like
within the church there's awhole lot of difficulty that and
I'm not telling you you shouldget over it and go back to that
church and and I know there's along healing process but I I do
think we're not always alwayscognizant of who or what we're
(40:10):
talking about.
That this isn't just like youknow I like this organization or
I like that organization.
That this is the bride ofChrist of which his spirit is
alive within this body he'sredeeming it he's restoring it.
This is how he's working withinthe world and so too quickly we
just get mad and walk awaywhereas what would it be like
(40:33):
Jeff is a good example butthere's a lot of other people
that are examples to like manI'm gonna pour my everything
into making the bride of Christas good and as beautiful as it
can be because that's that'sthis this is this is the hope of
the world there there is nothis is the hope of the world
this is Jesus' bride this iswhat he's chosen this is what he
staked his mission on it's whathe staked his kind of
(40:55):
reputation on.
And so how do we build it upinstead of just tearing it down?
Yes how do we talk honestlyabout it?
How do we repent?
But how do we work to build itup to make it better as opposed
to just trashing it.
Nancy Bruscher (41:08):
Yeah and I think that that comes back to what we
were talking about like graceand truth right like things
don't need to be swept under therug and Jesus tells us how to
confront people right in Matthew18 he tells us how to do that.
So he's not saying like don'thave conversations right I
especially feel like it happenswith with like gossip or just
small things of the church or Idon't like the music or I don't
(41:30):
like this and they can becomebig things and you're like well
this is Jesus's bride though youguys this is like we're we're
his bride and also what I wasthinking was as we go to the
same church but there are alsoother churches right all over
the world.
And so to be respectful andloving of all churches and not
(41:51):
just someone that you go to ifthat makes sense because
especially with with like socialmedia you kind of know what
other churches are doing.
Scott Martin (42:00):
I mean sometimes you have friends that go to
other churches but sometimesyou'll just see a church will
put up an advertisement oryou'll see like a little reel or
something of this pastor.
And it's really easy to be likethat church is nuts or that
church is whacked or that churchis this or that church is that
but it's like no we are oneembodiment of this universal
family.
And so even though I may talkreal well about Southeast where
(42:21):
we go like oh Southeast is greatSoutheast is awesome if I'm
over here trashing this otherchurch well that's not any
better.
They're just as much his brideas as we are I have a friend a
guy in staff here actually wewere talking the other day even
that's one of his things aboutyou know Jesus says in in John
in the Last Supper as he'spraying that the world will know
(42:41):
that you've sent me really bythe oneness of the church.
And Steve, he's our missionspastor he was saying that he
goes yeah the world doesn't knowand partly to blame for that is
because the church isn't onebecause we're divided because we
divide amongst ourselves and wetalk bad about ourselves and we
gossip about ourselves and weput each other down that the
center of our witness is ourunity and our love for each
(43:05):
other that's founded on our lovefor Jesus.
Nancy Bruscher (43:08):
This has been so good Scott and we're almost at
an hour.
I can't believe it like wheredid the time go?
So I wanted to just ask ifthere is something that you're
like hey we need to we need tosay this before we just kind of
I have a couple closingquestions but is there something
that you're like hey we gottawe gotta share this before we
get off this topic.
Scott Martin (43:26):
For people that have experienced church hurt no
matter what that looks likeyou're an individual who's
experienced it from a leader oryou feel rejected from from the
church or maybe if you're even apastor that's felt rejected I
just one I just want toacknowledge that and say you
know we we see you and I thinkthat I think that's legitimate
and and I think that hurtsbecause pain always hurts the
worst when you experience itfrom places that you feel like
(43:48):
you shouldn't.
That's why it's hard fromfamily it's hard from the
church.
And as a church leader I just Iwant to apologize for that.
And I really do want to say I'msorry that we we should be
better.
We need to learn but I alsowant to encourage you to don't
let that be the end of yourjourney that that's why I think
a healthy view of church ahealthy view of leaders a
healthy view of pastors is herewe're all human.
(44:10):
Again that doesn't excuse somebut just what's one small step
we said it but I really believeit like a lot of times we get
hurt our our biggest hurts comefrom other people but that's
where our healing comes from tooand the church is an incredibly
healing community when it's atits best and so how how can you
begin to take a step?
Nancy Bruscher (44:32):
That's really good.
What is your favorite Bibleverse?
Scott Martin (44:36):
So my favorite verse is actually Acts 2024
where Paul's talking about hesays I consider my life worth
nothing if only I can finish thetask that the Lord Jesus has
given to me the task oftestifying to the good news kind
of like Paul I just kind offeel compelled by that.
Nancy Bruscher (44:50):
But that's what I I want to share good news with
people and I just like howconsuming that is well we're
wrapping up this series and I dopray that Jesus just met people
in their hearts that theylearned something.
Maybe if it wasn't evenanything like really about
church hurt but we talked aboutidentity and we talked about you
know being a bride and justlike a lot of things.
(45:11):
So I can't wait to hear how Godis going to use these words.
I'm just so thankful for thistime.
I really enjoyed it.
Scott Martin (45:18):
Yeah thank you Nancy I did too thank you so
much for for what you do and forthis and for having these
conversations it's important andI know it's really helpful for
people.
So thank you.
Nancy Bruscher (45:26):
Thank you.
On Ordinary PeopleExtraordinary Things your story
is his glory.
I pray that this conversationhas really impacted your heart.
I know it has for me.
I'm so thankful that you arepart of Ordinary People
Extraordinary things.
Thanks for continuing to listenand share these stories with
others.
I'll see you in two weeks for abrand new episode
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