February 9, 2025 • 63 mins
What if revisiting familiar stories could open up a world of new insights and growth? Join us as we sit down with Brad, an inspiring teacher from Walking the Text, to uncover the enduring power of storytelling woven into Biblical narratives. As we explore how Walking the Text has transformed our family's homeschool experience, we promise you'll gain fresh perspectives on even the most well-known tales. Brad's passion for storytelling and education shines through, inspiring both young minds and those seeking deeper knowledge.
Amidst our conversation, we delve into the importance of understanding the Bible's rich context. From personal stories of growing up in a Southern Baptist tradition to discovering new dimensions in Leviticus, we embrace the idea of "second naivete." Through this lens, the Bible becomes a guide rather than a puzzle to solve, steering us toward a more profound spiritual adventure. This episode challenges listeners to embrace humility and recognize the beauty of what remains unknown in their faith journey.
Navigating the complexities of faith, especially through pain and doubt, reveals opportunities for profound growth. We share personal tales of loss and crisis, affirming that questioning and re-evaluating beliefs can lead to spiritual maturity. With lessons from the Sermon on the Mount and the impact of small, thoughtful actions, we highlight the significance of kindness and openness to change. Embark on this exploration with us, as we reflect on faith's dynamic nature and the transformative power of embracing life's uncertainties.
See the entire episode…
https://youtu.be/Ezb8dfzfUvA
CORRECTION: I misspoke when I referenced "Job's prayer" in the book of Job. I meant Jonah's prayer from the belly of the fish in the book of Jonah. -Brad
Watch more content from Brad @ https://walkingthetext.com/
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Ordinary People, extraordinary Things.
I'm so glad that you're here.
I'm Nancy, your host, and I getto talk to ordinary people just
like you about real stories,stories of hope.
Don't we all need some morehope in our lives?
If you love this podcast,please share it.
Please share it on social media, send a text, send an email.
(00:23):
Help us get the word out aboutOrdinary People, extraordinary
Things.
Well, welcome to OrdinaryPeople, extraordinary Things.
I'm so glad that Brad is on.
Brad, thanks for being on thepodcast this morning.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
I'm happy to be here.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
So, brad and I, we've gotten to know each other
because you've been able to cometo our church and speak, and
then this friendship has grownand I'm just so grateful for it
and so grateful for the wisdomthat you've poured out to us in
so many ways.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
Thank you.
Thank you Likewise.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
And Brad is part of Walking the Text and I will for
sure put all of the links onthere because I talk about it a
lot.
It is one of the things thathas truly changed our lives, and
just being able to listen.
I even tell people that once aweek it's actually part of our
homeschool agenda.
Now it has been for a few yearsthat we watch one a week, so I
(01:23):
don't think that you necessarilymade it for kids, but, uh, that
it's just been part of ourlives.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
Yeah, that's interesting.
We so it's not made for kids,but we've actually had a number
of homeschool and Christianschool organizations who've
reached out to us who are whoare using it as their Bible
curriculum in their schoolworkand it's really really cool.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
Yeah, I think that at first I was like we were Chris
and I, my husband and I werelistening to it.
And then what happened was andI think I've told you this story
, but it was Christmas time andI had asked the kids like what'd
you learn at church?
And they were like and I hadasked the kids like what did you
learn at church?
And they were like nothing,because we know this story.
And I was like, oh, and there'snothing against, like Sunday
(02:11):
school, love Sunday school, butobviously they're meeting a
certain you know people thatmaybe don't go to church every
single Sunday and you know it isgoing to be a little bit more
surface level.
(02:31):
And so when they said that, Iwas like, oh, my goodness, I
don't want my kids to think thatalready at the age of I don't
know nine, like my son, I've gotthe Bible figured out or I've
at least got the Christmas storyfigured out.
We listened to one of theChristmas ones and my question
at the end, always whenever welisten, is like just one thing,
what's one thing you took away?
And David said I didn't knowany of it and I was like, and
(02:54):
instead of it being a downer,and I guess I don't know
anything about the Bible.
This is way too much.
It was actually so uplifting tohim to have this knowledge that
he didn't have before, and thatwas just so cool to see.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
Yes, yeah, I'll actually.
I'm actually going to talkabout that, I think, as we get
further into the conversation.
But I've always thoughtprobably one of the highest
compliments that you can begiven as a teacher you know when
you're teaching in differentplaces is when somebody who's
been following Jesus for decadesI'll never forget.
One time I taught on Jonah andthis woman who is in her late
(03:32):
seventies came up to me andshe's just was beaming and she
said I've never heard thatbefore.
And I was like, oh yes,that's's like.
Its capacity to just always benew and have something more is
unbelievable, and children canlike they can capture that.
(03:54):
I mean, it blows my mind thatyou know my kids will come with
me to these speaking events andwe'll be riding home and they'll
call back my sermon in context,like with intelligence.
I'm like, oh my gosh, you'renine years old, but you're
connecting those dots.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, before we get too fardown, I do want to say if people
don't know who you are, I wantto ask you what are three words
or phrases to describe yourself?
Speaker 2 (04:22):
phrases to describe yourself.
Yeah, well, one and I do notmean this as a compliment to
myself, but driven, and it is anunfortunate part of my
personality that I am reallyhaving to work against.
One of the things that my wifeand I will often do on Saturday
(04:43):
mornings after coffee is to lookat each other and ask this
question what do you want to getdone today?
Like resting is so hard for me.
In fact, my day off tends to beone of the most difficult days
of the week for me, because Ithink I'm just so addicted to
(05:04):
doing and achieving andconquering.
So that's in there,unfortunately.
Another thing I would say is aquestioner, or maybe curious or
inquisitive.
I, my friends, will often tellme just stop asking questions,
because you ask these questionsthat they poke and they probe
(05:25):
and they prod and like I sawsomebody last week that I
haven't seen in 15 years andwe're like three minutes into
the conversation and I asked hima question and he said to me
geez, haven't seen each other in15 years and we're going
straight into a counselingsession.
So, surface right.
(05:45):
Oh yeah, yeah, there's, there'sthat.
And then, yeah, the other thingI would say would just be
storyteller.
I grew up with family who arejust incredible storytellers,
who love to laugh, and I see theworld through the lens of
stories and very often, you know, come to the end of my day or
(06:08):
the end of my week and I justhave these little stories that I
came across.
That and it's, it's literallymy operating system, it's how I
make sense of the world aroundme.
So I was driven, driven,questioner, storyteller.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
Oh, it's so good.
How did you become sopassionate about learning about
the Bible or teaching about theBible in context, and maybe
would you kind of, I guess, saywhat context means?
I threw out that word and allof a sudden I realized I know
what I'm saying, but maybesomeone who doesn't watch
Walking the Text or hasn't, whodoesn't watch Walking the Text
(06:48):
or hasn't- really talked aboutthe Bible like that might not
know.
Speaker 2 (06:50):
Yeah, well, I think everybody is probably can relate
to.
We've all been taken out ofcontext.
You say something, your wordsget repeated, but the person who
repeats your words doesn'tinclude the certain context in
which you said them.
And you know your words, whentaken out of context, can be
made to mean all kinds of things, and so we understand that.
(07:11):
And what happens is we do thesame thing with the Bible, and
so understanding the context ofthe Bible is to say, all right,
well, what were the situations,what were the settings?
So this would be things likethe history, the culture, the
geography, the literary design,the languages, the Greek and the
(07:33):
Hebrew backgrounds and even thevisual aspects of the Bible,
because, you know, a picture isworth a thousand words, and
people will say this all thetime when they go to the land of
Israel worth a thousand words,and people will say this all the
time when they go to the landof Israel.
It's like you see the Bible ina different way for the rest of
your life because you've beenthere and you've seen, and so
that really is the idea behindcontext, and I would say I think
(07:57):
I was predisposed to fall inlove with that way of reading
the Bible.
First, because I grew up in atradition where I was taught to
love the Bible.
So my father is a SouthernBaptist pastor.
He has been the pastor at FirstBaptist Church of Swartz Creek,
michigan, for over 30 years andI grew up going to church there
(08:20):
and I, just like I knew theBible stories and I loved them
and you know there's a lot frommy Southern Baptist upbringing
that I was happy to leave behindas I've grown and matured.
But, boy, there's a lot of goodthat I have been a real
recipient of that I wanted tohold on to, and so I think it
(08:42):
just it predisposed me.
But exactly like what you weretalking about with your kids, by
the time I graduated highschool and went off to college
and it was a Christian college,christian university.
You've heard these stories ahundred times and I'll never
forget.
I started attending a church inGrand Rapids, michigan, and the
(09:04):
pastor launched the church byspending a year going, verse by
verse, through the book ofLeviticus in its ancient Jewish
context, and it was absolutelymind blowing for a couple of
reasons.
One, when you started to piecetogether the culture, the
(09:25):
history, the geography, a lot oftimes these passages that you
thought you understood or thatwere just really weird and
didn't make any sense at all.
Well, once you added thatinformation, they started to
make perfect sense, and so thatwas really fascinating.
But then what it did is it gaveme and maybe you're familiar
with this phrase a secondnaivete.
(09:53):
It's like that feeling whensomething that you've had or
possessed for a long time andyou thought you had it figured
out, it's like it's brand newall over again and that is the
endearing nature of the Bible tome is like there is just no end
.
You know, the Bible is reallythis genre of what we would call
Jewish meditation literature.
In other words, tim Mackey ofthe Bible Project says this a
(10:17):
lot that the Bible is notdesigned to yield its secrets
easily.
It's the kind of thing you'remeant to meditate on and chew on
.
And, by the way, that wordmeditate in Hebrew is haggah,
and it can mean to meditate, butit can also mean to chew, like
the way that a lion would devourits prey and give out these
(10:41):
like growls of delight whileit's chewing it.
We're meant to read scripturethat way so long, lovingly,
slowly, savoringly, and overtime it just keeps giving off
more and more and more.
So I, you know, it was that Ihad that love for the Bible
number one.
The context made sense of stuffthat was confusing and it gave
(11:04):
me that second naivete.
And so I mean, then I went onan Israel trip and you know,
once you see, you can't unsee,once you taste, you can't
untaste.
And I was, I was hooked.
Speaker 1 (11:16):
What if someone's listening and saying so?
I can never figure it out.
Is that exciting for you or isthat frustrating?
Speaker 2 (11:28):
Well.
So I would nuance that to saythis I think that there is this
misunderstanding about wisdom.
I used to think when I wasyoung that wisdom meant having
all the answers, and the olderyou got, the more wise you were,
the more you had all theanswers.
(11:48):
But of course, the older I getand the more I learn, the less
I'm certain of, but, strangely,the more I'm confident in and I
actually think that you see thisespecially when you read
through the wisdom literature,in the Bible, proverbs
especially, you see that realwisdom is not having all the
(12:11):
answers, but knowing just howmuch you don't know and putting
yourself in this like rightplace before God.
That's like you are, god.
I'm not, I don't have all theanswers, but my job is to be a
student who's pursuing, and Iactually love that because, you
(12:36):
know, I grew up in a traditionwhere the pastor was supposed to
be Bible answer man.
But there is something aboutthis.
Wow, there's always somethingnew.
You never quite get to thebottom, it's all.
It's almost like you're notmeant to master the Bible, the
Bible's meant to master you, andas it comes to master you more
(12:59):
and more, oh, it's just a.
It's just, it's a joyous, ajoyous experience good, that's
really good.
I don't know if I'd want tofollow a god that I could
completely understand yep, well,exactly because then, if, if
you completely understand andyou can pull all the levers,
(13:22):
then you're just dealing with acosmic vending machine and let
God, as a projection of you,which we all are guilty of at
some point, what would you sayto someone who's listening,
that's afraid to dive in becausemaybe they're saying, like
faith is just believing and I'lljust believe.
Speaker 1 (13:44):
And this is how I felt in high school.
College was really wanted tobelieve in God.
I really wanted to keepbelieving in God, but I was
afraid to do any kind of oflearning because I thought what
if God can't hold up?
What if he can't hold up toscience?
What if he can't hold up to myquestions?
What would you say to someonewho's in that boat?
Speaker 2 (14:08):
Yeah.
So first I would just say Iwould start with compassion
because I think it is a validfear.
And it's a valid fear because,having gone through a pretty
tragic experience in my lifethat forced me into a crisis of
faith, I can say, withoutquestion, it is incredibly
(14:31):
unnerving to have yourfoundation pulled out from
underneath you, your worldview,the way you think about God, who
God is, how he interacts withthe world, interacts with the
world right, and then youexperience cancer or somebody
dies.
In my case, you know, mybrother-in-law was a friend of
mine, married my little sister.
(14:52):
They were 21 years old.
He went to Iraq, was there for30 days and was killed by an
explosion, an improvisedexplosive, and it just gutted,
it, absolutely destroyed myfaith.
I was praying for him morefaithfully than I'd prayed for
anything else in my entire life.
My whole family was and I'mholding on to.
(15:14):
You know these promises.
You know the prayer of arighteous person is effective.
You have not, because you asknot If you pray with faith
believing.
You ask not if you pray withfaith believing and I just was
like, how can this be?
We, we were doing everythingright and his death really
exposed my faith for the houseof cards that it was, and I
(15:37):
spent a year like wrestling,asking questions and and,
honestly, raging, raging againstGod.
And I came to this place whereI realized, okay, either Karl
Marx was right and religion isjust an opiate for the masses to
(15:58):
make people feel better abouttheir misery, or I have
misunderstood this thing fromthe ground up and I have to go
back and rethink everything.
And so that's what I did, andit was terrifying.
Really, it's just to have therug pulled out from under you
(16:21):
does not feel good, and Iactually think that there are
like, we may get to a point inlife.
I think anybody, anybody canrethink things, anybody.
But I think the tendency ofhuman beings is we get to a
certain point in life.
Like, I have certain familymembers who are at an age where
I don't think they could do thatwork.
(16:44):
It would just be too upsetting,right.
So I would just begin by sayingit's a valid fear, but I would
say also it's a pretty low viewof God.
Like, what if God can't standup to science?
Well, what do you believe inthen?
Really, like, do you believe inthe power of science over the
(17:06):
power of God?
Do you believe you know Godcan't handle your questions.
I mean, look at the Psalms.
God has room for people's rage.
God actually invites people'squestions, their lament, their
rage and so, but we're just nottold that.
(17:26):
We're not told that and this isthe thing I would say is that
life will bring you to thisplace.
Pain is often the doorway tothese kind of deeper reaches of
the soul, and not everybody goesthere.
Catholic theologians have thisway of thinking about spiritual
development that they'll talkabout.
(17:48):
There's a first half of lifeand a second half of life, and
in the first half of life, kindof faith, it's really all about,
you know, building a name foryourself, figuring out who you
are, figuring out who God is,figuring out what your beliefs
are and all that good stuff,figuring out who God is,
figuring out what your beliefsare and all that good stuff.
But then in your second half oflife, everything that you've
(18:12):
been gathering up to sort ofprop yourself up, you realize I
really need to now spend thesecond half of my life emptying
all this out.
Typically, what moves peoplefrom first half of life faith
into second half of life?
Faith is the experience of somegreat pain, and so I would say
sometimes we resist doing thatwork and if we resist it, life
has a way of pushing us into itanyways.
(18:34):
But when you get pushed throughthe doorway because of pain,
not everybody like goes throughand grows.
Some people will actuallydouble down.
They'll go back harder on theirtribal theology, the faith that
they were handed in theirchildhood.
They will double down.
(18:54):
Others will just disbelieve.
I'm not going to do the work oftrying to understand this from
the ground up, so I'm just donewith it.
But if you'll let it, pain willdisappoint you into depth of
trying to understand this fromthe ground up, so I'm just I'm
done with it.
But if you'll let it, pain willdisappoint you into depth.
And actually I think thatthat's been one of the greatest
(19:16):
gifts of my life is seeing theway that God redeems pain and
pain then becomes this really,really powerful doorway through
which he's able to breathe newlife into the world how, like
what did you?
Speaker 1 (19:30):
what did you have to relearn, I guess?
Or what, if you want to share?
Or like how, those passagesthat you talked about about
prayer, how have you understoodthose now?
Speaker 2 (19:44):
Yeah.
So for starters, I've come tounderstand the Bible as it's a
story, and it's a story that'sheaded somewhere.
It's a story that's got a pointand it's a story that's an
invitation to participate inwhere God is moving everything
right.
And because we get toparticipate, we also get to
(20:10):
choose not to participate.
So God, for whatever reason, iscarrying out his good purposes
through the agency and the willof people who either get on
board or don't, and when theydon't, it actually frustrates
God's will, like gets in the wayof it right.
(20:31):
So for me it was like, okay,prayer is not a gumball machine
where I just do the right things, put in my quarter, twist the
dial and out comes the thingthat I was hoping for.
Prayer is actually about melearning to yield to what it is
(20:53):
that God wants, right.
So I grew up with this ideathat prayer was primarily about
me expressing my feelings.
But actually the Hebrew peoplethe way that they learned to
pray was by praying the Psalms,literally memorizing the Psalms.
So if you look at Job's prayerin the belly of the fish in the
(21:16):
book of Job, every single lineof his prayer is stolen from the
Psalms and it's not an originalprayer.
He's borrowed from the Psalmsand weaved together this prayer,
but what's interesting is thathe prays a prayer from the
Psalms that is totally at oddswith his situation.
(21:38):
You would expect him, with hisback against an intestinal wall,
that he is going to pray aprayer of lament, but instead he
prays Psalms that are a prayerof thanksgiving.
So he prays at a way that istotally at odds with his
feelings.
And I think this is the wisdomof Jewish prayer is we don't
(21:58):
pray in order to express what wefeel.
We pray God's words in order tofeel what God's words express.
Right, so it's about yieldingwhat it is that I want to what
it is God wants.
(22:18):
Now that doesn't mean that Idon't pray for, you know,
someone to be healed, or for Godto, you know, help us
financially.
Of course I still pray thosethings and of course I still
think God cares about that stuff.
But there is this otherdimension of reality.
That's not about me getting myway, but about this big story
(22:41):
that God's unfolding and howI've been invited to be a part
of it.
So that was a big part of merethinking prayer.
Honestly.
Another big part of it wasthinking about the problem of
evil.
So you know God, if you are incontrol, why would you let my
brother die?
But then, when you go back intothe story of the scriptures and
(23:03):
you look at it in its context,oh my gosh, some really
disturbing stuff about evilstarts to show up.
There is this group in theHebrew scriptures and you can
find it in several passagescalled the divine council, and
this is kind of like God'sheavenly courtroom, and these
(23:25):
are all these supernaturalbeings, the Elohim, the sons of
God, and it's as though God hasdelegated authority to these
supernatural beings to help himrule the earth right.
And those beings have this freewill to get on board and do it
(23:45):
God's way or go their own way.
And so, like in the book ofDaniel, chapter 10, daniel's
praying, and three weeks go byand this angel shows up and says
hey, I was dispatched to youthe minute you started praying,
but I actually did battle withthe prince of Persia.
He resisted me for three weeksand it's taken me three weeks to
(24:07):
get here.
And so for me that was like,okay, hold up, hold up, hold up.
What if?
What if?
God's intent, of course, was toanswer my prayer and keep my
brother safe, but because welive in a world where God has
allowed us to exercise freedom,where he has allowed even these
(24:29):
supernatural beings to exercisefreedom, and they fight against
it, that, like death, exists.
So it's not God who let thathappen, it's evil at work.
And so for me it was just likeoh okay, I don't have to lay
this at the feet of God and saythis is your fault.
Actually, when I understand thestory of scripture, it's much
(24:54):
more complex, it makes moresense, and it helps me wrestle
with some of these like deeper,deeper issues.
Does that make sense?
Well, there was a lot there.
Speaker 1 (25:07):
I'm sorry.
No, it was so good, it's sointeresting.
Last Saturday, david was askingabout, like, the difference of
seraphim, cherubims andseraphims and angels.
They seem to be three differentkinds, yep, and I was like, oh
my, like, oh, this is a lotbuddy.
(25:28):
So I'm doing all this researchand I came across the Bible
Project, which I think youmentioned, and we're in the
middle of watching their littleseries on that because I was
like I love that he hasquestions.
I honestly don't always havethe answers because it's just a
lot and they probably don't haveall the answers either.
Right, and just remembering,remembering that as well.
(25:51):
Yeah, it's just so funny youbrought that up, cause I was
like, yeah, we're actuallywatching that little series on
that.
Yeah, so would you say thatthat God is what?
What is that Christian wordthat we use for God that says
that he's in control ofeverything?
That, like, he either says itcan happen or he allows it to
(26:13):
happen, or am I making any sense?
Uh, yeah, I.
Speaker 2 (26:17):
I understand what you're saying.
Yeah, for whatever reason, godin his wisdom has decided to
carry out his purposes inpartnership with people and also
, if you get into the weeds ofthe divine council in the Hebrew
(26:40):
scriptures, he's decided tocarry out his purposes in
partnership with these Elohim,these supernatural beings.
So I don't know how that allplays out, like god is going to
bring about god's purposes but,for whatever reason, he does it
(27:01):
in partnership with us and where, like his will and way ends and
our free choices play into I.
I don't know.
I don't know the details of howthat works, but I know that like
that's sort of how it works inall of the relationships that
that I have in my own life.
(27:22):
Like there is this I'm likewhen I think about my children,
like I'm your dad, but I alsorecognize that I can't control
you.
Like, in order for us to have aloving, flourishing family, you
have to, as a child, learn towant what is right for yourself.
Speaker 1 (28:01):
Is this coming together of me exercising
authority and control as the dad, but also leaving room for
freedom so that it's theirchoice, right, yeah, yeah.
What would you say to someonewho is afraid, like maybe they
heard something just in whatyou're saying and they're like
oh, I've never heard this orthat sounds too scary to dive
(28:22):
into.
Or you know, I grew up Catholicand, like you, I'm so grateful
for, for the faith that myparents instilled in me.
I have a sense stop practicingCatholicism, but that's scary.
Right To do something differentthan you're comfortable with,
wanting to be respectful of yourfamily and your, what you were
brought up in.
But what would you say tosomeone that's like what?
(28:43):
What if I, what if my thingschange?
What if that means that what Ireally thought was so important,
god's like, it actually isn't?
But this is really important.
But that's scary right, I meanit is.
Speaker 2 (28:58):
Yeah, human.
I mean, we don't like change,we like to get things sorted out
and cement them in place.
But you know, here's theproblem with that Human beings
are not static creatures, we'redynamic creatures.
Change is expected, change isassumed.
It is the nature of reality.
(29:18):
My marriage is different todaythan it was 20 years ago.
My relationships are differenttoday than they are 20.
I am I think I even saw a studyonce that, like your, the cells
in your body, they change sofrequently that basically every
seven years you are a totallynew person at the cellular level
(29:40):
.
So we are, we are constantlychanging, and to sort of dig
your heels in and say, well, Idon't like that, I understand it
, but at some level it's alsokind of like a refusal to live
in reality.
Change is just the nature ofthe world that we inhabit.
(30:00):
You really then have thisinvitation to.
What would it look like toembrace that?
And here's a metaphor that'sbeen really, really helpful for
me.
I remember seeing this when Iread the Chronicles of Narnia,
and in the very last book.
You know, the people go throughthe doorway and they're in this
(30:22):
like new creation, this newheaven, this new Narnia, and
they keep being invited furtherup and further in, further up
come, further up and further in.
There's more, it's better, andthe deeper they go on the
journey, the bigger Narniabecomes, the more real it
becomes, the more glorious itbecomes, and that really is what
(30:47):
my experience of faith, theBible and God have been like.
So there's a famous picture ifyou can picture it in your mind
of the Grand Tetons in thedistance, and in the foreground
of this picture there's thiscabin.
It's really beautiful, it'slike a rustic picture.
But imagine that you and I areon a hike and we're walking
(31:08):
towards the Tetons and from 10miles away we can look at that
mountain range and say, oh yeah,here's what it looks like the
journey is going to require.
We're going to have to go eastover there.
Obviously we're going to haveto scale up there, and then
we're going to have to go leftthere and then we're going to
have to backtrack a little bitand then we can go north.
(31:29):
It all seems so clear.
But the deeper into the journeyyou get, the bigger the
mountain becomes, the more realit becomes, and as you get into
it you start to realize, ah, wecouldn't see this from back
there and actually we don't haveto go this way.
(31:51):
We actually need to go this wayand, in fact, the only way the
journey can continue is if weare willing to rethink the
things that were so certain backthere and this, I think, is
what holds a lot of people backin continuing to mature and grow
in their faith is this refusalto rethink.
(32:13):
And, by the way, that is whatthe word repent means in Greek,
metanoeo it is to change yourmind.
And I don't think that werepent just once, because, yes,
you repent, you give yourallegiance to Jesus Christ, but
then you give yourself to thislife of discipleship, which is
all about what the Apostle Paulcalls taking on the mind of
(32:37):
Christ.
So you are literally dailytrying to change your mind in
order to see things the way thatJesus saw them, and if that is
the kind of life you say yes to,oh man, buckle up, because you
are going to be doing a lot ofchanging.
Speaker 1 (33:02):
What would you say to someone who does know a lot
about the Bible and they getfrustrated when they hear things
that aren't quite biblical?
And I'm sure you get this allthe time because you are so
knowledgeable in the Bible.
How do you, I guess, be humble?
But also, are there times whenyou can talk with someone, or is
(33:26):
it just kind of seeing how thatrelationship is?
Speaker 2 (33:32):
Yeah, Well, for one, like you said, humility.
I think is is so crucial and Ithink it's actually a test of
true wisdom Because, like I said, real wisdom is knowing just
how much you don't know, notwalking around saying, look at
it, look at how much I know youknow, not walking around
(33:53):
pointing out all the ways peopleare wrong.
And also, another thing thathas been really it's just a
thought that's always been in mymind when this comes up is you
know, there was a stage on thejourney where that way of
thinking or that way of makingsense of things was really
helpful for me.
And it could be that there arepeople right now for whom that
(34:19):
way of thinking is reallyhelpful.
And it's the first part of thejourney.
And I don't even like thatlanguage, because that even
sounds like oh, I'm, you know,further along than you and one
day you'll be where I'm at.
I don't like that, but it is.
You know, like we need allkinds of churches, we need all
(34:39):
kinds of teaching.
I think we need every voicemaking sense of the text,
twisting the gem, helping uslook at it from different angles
.
So you know, there's that.
But yeah, I do think that thereis like this and this is what I
love about context so much iswhen you can come to the Bible
(35:00):
and ask the question not what doI think or what does this mean
for me, but what did this meanfor them then?
Oh gosh, that just creates suchnew and interesting and
exciting ways to think about thetext and ways in.
(35:23):
But, as you've said, noteverybody's up for that.
It's not for everyone, itreally isn't.
I grew up in a veryanti-intellectual church.
My parents made jokes aboutpeople who had PhDs and they
called seminary cemetery, andI'm sure they hated it.
When I went, Because in theirmind, people who get smart go
(35:43):
crazy, they go off the deep end,and they would tell me you went
to college and you becameliberal.
I'm like, no, I didn't.
Just because I went to schooldoesn't make me liberal, but so
there is some fear of that.
But it's so worth the journey.
It's so worth the journey.
Speaker 1 (36:02):
Yeah, well, and you have been kind of walking us
through some questions thatChris and I had, and you were
like, hey, maybe look at it thisway, and you've given us so
many tools and and books.
So thank you for being graciouswith us, as we're kind of
always learning, and you do thatso well, though.
Instead of being like how couldyou do that so well, though,
instead of being like how couldyou think that you're such an
(36:25):
idiot?
or like you know, just uh well,you know, this is what I thought
.
This is kind of what I thinknow.
This book helped me and like wecan always still be friends
even if we end up staying ondifferent sides of this question
.
So, um, I think that you'regifted in that well.
Speaker 2 (36:42):
Thank you.
I've had some really goodmentors along the way who
modeled that really well.
Speaker 1 (36:47):
So we talked about knowing a lot about the Bible
and learning, and I think when Iwas growing up it was don't
talk about religion, don't talkabout politics.
At least that's kind of how theworld kind of seemed to me.
That's kind of how the worldkind of seemed to me.
And now it feels like throwyourself into talking and
telling everybody about yourpolitics and your religion and
(37:11):
don't worry if it hurts people.
I think it was kind of what Iwas saying with your question of
like, if you have a differentthought about the Bible than
someone else, maybe how do you?
I think you can talk about it.
I mean, like you said, we'vetalked about it and you've been
like, hey, maybe look at this.
So I'm not saying you can'ttalk about it, but I feel like
(37:33):
from when I grew up of don'ttalk about politics or religion
to now we're on the otherspectrum of almost like just
throw it all out there and bemean to each other.
And you know, we just camethrough a new president coming
into office and there's so muchtension and oh, it's kind of a
(37:58):
difficult spot to live in, right?
What would you say to people aswe're?
Speaker 2 (38:23):
What would you say to people as we're diving into
religion and tribal, that I'veever seen in the world and I
definitely felt it as a pastor Alot of pressure to say our
thing, like quote our people,don't quote the wrong person,
don't read the wrong books.
(38:44):
So there is a lot of pressureto pick your side and you know
and go on the attack.
And I think it's just helpfulto remember.
You know, first and foremost,if you are a follower of Jesus,
(39:08):
a follower of Jesus, yourprimary citizenship is in heaven
.
Our primary citizenship is asapprentices to Jesus, disciples
of his way and kind of.
The core of that is love Godand love others.
And how do you love God?
Well, you do it by lovingothers.
So, unfortunately, the truthabout like a polarized society
and a tribal society is that itis much easier to build
(39:31):
community with people when youshare a common enemy.
And you see this all over,actually, in the New Testament
moments where the Pharisees andthe Herodians will team up
together to eliminate Jesus.
Well, the Herodians were allabout keeping Herod and Rome in
power and the Pharisees kind ofhad this bent of like revolution
(39:55):
, and so they're diametricallyopposed but they come into
league together to eliminateJesus.
Or you've got Herod, antipasand Pontius Pilate, who they're
not friends, they're kind ofenemies, but they come together
around Jesus's trial andcrucifixion and the text says
(40:17):
that they became friends fromthat moment onward.
And so there is a seductionright now to build community
around common enemies and thatis so antithetical to the
kingdom of God.
So just to be aware of that Ithink is huge, and you know the
(40:39):
text will talk in all kinds ofways about you know, honor the
authorities, right.
Pray for your leaders.
It's God who puts these leadersin place positions and
(41:07):
situations where the rulers andauthorities over them put
themselves in a place wherethey're making a claim on God's
place, right.
So when Babylon wants to set upa statue and, like you know,
daniel and all your friends,you're going to bow down and
you're going to worship thestatue and Daniel's like no,
well, daniel works for thegovernment, he has a Babylonian
name, but he draws the line.
(41:28):
And you see that same kind ofthing in the New Testament where
man, these followers of Jesus,they care about their
communities, they care abouttheir government, they're going
to pray, they're going tosupport, they're going to work,
they're going to invest, butthere will be these moments
where they have to play the roleand again I'm getting this
(41:49):
language from the Bible projectabout Daniel and even about, you
know, some of the followers ofJesus in the New Testament where
they're loyal subversives.
I mean, peter says to thereligious leaders in the book of
Acts we have to obey God, notmen.
We have to obey God, not people.
(42:11):
And when people put themselvesin positions to make claims that
well, that's God's territory,that's where you kind of have to
draw the line and say I don'tthink so.
That's a kind of idolatry thatyou know needs to be named and
challenged and confronted.
(42:32):
So, on the whole, I think Iactually think Christians have
this like really powerfulopportunity right now to love
others really well by being someof those peaceable voices that
you can talk to, and they're notgoing to treat you as an enemy
because you know you think thisway, or cast you aside because
(42:52):
you think this way.
They're going to stay engaged.
Speaker 1 (42:56):
So you might say that one of our, one of the things
that we can do, is to try not toget into like kind of tribes,
as you called them, and and justhave conversations with people
and not.
Speaker 2 (43:09):
Yeah I mean, go all the way back to genesis 12, when
god chooses abraham and makesit.
You know he's going to make acovenant with abraham.
He's going to bless all of theworld through abraham.
The whole idea about that thatis so revolutionary is that
tribes exist for the benefit ofthemselves, and what God does by
(43:33):
choosing Abraham and giving hisfamily this mission to bless
the whole world, is he basicallysays hey, you are going to be a
tribe that exists for theblessing and benefit of all
other tribes.
So, yeah, resist thattemptation to get sucked into
(43:53):
the polarization.
But also remember that, ascitizens of the kingdom of
heaven, like, why am I here?
Well, I am here to blesseveryone.
Well, I am here to blesseveryone, so how can I be a
blessing in this conversation?
Speaker 1 (44:15):
How can I bless this person, even if they're my enemy
, which is one of Jesus'steachings that's so challenging
in the New Testament?
Yeah, yeah, well, this has beena great conversation.
Speaker 2 (44:25):
Well, as we wrap up, this might be a hard question
for you what is your favoriteBible verse or story?
Yeah, that is a hard questionbecause I feel like it's sort of
like asking a cat lady whichcat is your favorite?
Speaker 1 (44:36):
As a Bible teacher.
Speaker 2 (44:38):
Yeah, well, the truth is and this is a frustrating
answer to your question but myfavorite one is, whatever one I
happen to be working on at themoment, because of that
discovery that, oh, there'salways something new.
You know, like yesterday I gota text message from somebody
asking me a question about theparable of the rich man and
(45:01):
Lazarus, and so I literally justspent 10 minutes.
I looked at two commentaries,sat with the verse for a second
and sent a reply back and I sawsomething I've never seen before
.
That totally transformed thatstory for me and I'm like I love
this passage and I want to finda way to teach on this in the
(45:22):
next, you know, week or two.
So that's whatever what I'mworking on.
But I would say if there is acenter of gravity over the years
, it's been the Sermon on theMount.
Like if you want to understandthe core, the curriculum for
what it means to be a discipleof Jesus and to become like him,
the Sermon on the Mount is theheart and soul.
(45:45):
And so, even as a pastor, Ijust made this commitment we
will go, verse by verse, throughthe Sermon on the Mount once
every five years.
It's that important, it's liketrue north.
You just got to keep comingback to it and letting it
reorient you.
Speaker 1 (46:01):
Yeah, I think that's one that you'd have to get into
context, though, right I yeah?
Speaker 2 (46:07):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 1 (46:08):
Yeah, do you have a teaching on that one?
Speaker 2 (46:11):
On the Sermon on the Mount.
Yeah, yes, many.
I think the one that was mostenlightening for me has to do
with Jesus's teachings onnonviolence, and so especially
the whole turn the other cheekthing.
So right in the ancient world,you, you eat and do business
(46:35):
with your, your right hand, likewe sign documents, we shake
hands, all that kind of stuff.
You do private bathroom stuffwith your left hand, so you
don't use your left hand.
And Jesus says if somebodystrikes you on the right cheek,
well, if I'm standing in frontof you and I don't use my left
(46:57):
hand in this culture and Istrike you with my right hand on
your right cheek, it's abackhand right.
And here's the thing you haveto understand about the
Mediterranean world and theancient Near East, especially
Greco-Roman culture, is that itis highly, highly stratified,
(47:19):
probably the most stratifiedsociety history has ever seen.
It's all about like a socialhierarchy and where you fall on
the hierarchy, and so the blowof a backhand is the blow of
somebody who's higher than youon the social hierarchy.
And so what Jesus basicallysays is all right, let them take
(47:40):
the blow, absorb the blow.
Don't't respond with evil,don't respond by hitting them
back.
Turn to them your other cheek.
Well, if I've just struck youwith my right hand and you turn
your other cheek to me, the mostnatural thing in the world is
going to be for me to do whatLeft hand Right Like to, to hit
(48:06):
you with an open hand this time,this way it's.
It would be super awkward forme to kind of have to like, come
around this way and try, andyou know so.
The point is that if somebodystrikes you this way, what
they've just communicated toeverybody watching is that you
are my equal.
So what Jesus is really gettingat is a way to deal with
(48:31):
violence that is creative andthrows it back on its heels.
So you absorb the violencethat's done to you.
You refuse to respond in kind.
You refuse to respond in kind.
(48:52):
You surprise it with creativegrace or creative response that,
at the very same moment,exposes it for the sham that it
is, and that, to me, is thegenius of the Jesus way.
I mean, it's what Martin LutherKing Jr did with nonviolent
action.
It's what Gandhi did withnonviolent action.
They took Jesus's teachings andput them into practice in a way
that totally transformed theworld, and to me that one is
(49:17):
like okay, it's always in mymind and I didn't realize it
when I put this teachingtogether at the time but the the
acronym absorb, refuse,surprise, expose, arse right,
and so you know my thought isyou know, when somebody cuts me
off in traffic and I just likethis, anger, absorb, refuse,
(49:37):
surprise, expose, what does itlook like to not respond with
anger but to surprise this withcreative grace when you know
there's conflict with anotherperson?
Absorb, refuse, surprise,expose.
That teaching has been soincredibly helpful for me.
Speaker 1 (49:58):
Yeah, I had heard it that then they would.
They would have to do theirleft hand and they would like
kind of stop because that wouldbe so terrible, because that was
the one they used for theirbathroom.
Speaker 2 (50:13):
Okay, See, I've never heard that, but like from what,
from what?
Everything that I've read, youjust you, pretty much this was
just reserved for you, Okay.
Speaker 1 (50:23):
So it's kind of the same thought, though, right,
it's like oh, I'm coming at,like what?
Oh?
Speaker 2 (50:28):
yeah, okay.
Speaker 1 (50:31):
I'm learning so much.
What could you?
Could you tell us about whatyou were talking about?
This, like little nugget yougot about Lazarus and the.
Speaker 2 (50:40):
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So I mean the person'squestion's question was hey, if
it's a parable, why does jesusname the, the poor beggar?
lazarus right and um, soparables they're.
Have you ever been tellingsomebody a story and you're
trying to like get the pointacross and they keep
(51:02):
interrupting you and askingdetailed questions and they're
like, well, wait, but were theshoes red or were they blue?
And you finally you get upsetand you're like the color of the
shoes is not the point.
The point is that there wereshoes.
Sometimes parables work thatway where when we get into too
much, like, well, what does thissymbolize and how do we draw
(51:26):
parallels?
Doing that too much can makemore of the parable than is
there.
So it could be that Lazarus,who knows why there is no, you
know meaning to why.
But, as we've been discussing,the Jewish people believe that
you never get to the bottom ofthe bible, so they delighted to
(51:50):
savor and meditate and wrestlewith and find new insights, new
spiritual insights, and I thinkwe're called to do the same
thing, right?
So I started looking into thestory and here's the interesting
contextual nugget.
That story about the rich manand Lazarus is a really
well-known folk tale in theancient world and Jesus was not
(52:13):
the first person to tell thisstory.
In fact, when he started totell the parable, his listeners
would have been like oh, I knowthis story, I've heard this
before, but what would have madethe record player screech to a
halt for them is that Jesuschanges the detail, because in
the ancient folktale version ofthat story the rich person is
(52:34):
allowed to send a message backfrom Hades, but in Jesus's
version of the story version ofthe story he's not.
And the reason he's not is ifyour family has not listened to
Moses and the prophets, theywon't believe a word that comes
back from the dead.
And here's the interestingthing Lazarus in Hebrew is a
(53:00):
shortened version of the nameEleazar, which means God helps,
and I think kind of the point ofthe story is God has been
helping your family throughMoses and the prophets, and if
they have said no to that helpover and over and over and over
again, over and over and, overand over again, at what point do
(53:25):
you become unable to receivehelp, even when it's a word from
the dead, right?
So there is this idea that ifyou say no and you see this
actually even in the story ofExodus, with a hardening of
Pharaoh's heart if you make achoice over and over and over
(53:46):
and over and over again, youbecome incapable of making
another choice, which is why ourhabits are so, so powerful.
But I think that's kind of thenugget.
The aha is like no, no, no,I've been giving you help.
They've had help.
(54:06):
It's been there all along inMoses and the prophets and they
turned a deaf ear to it.
You think a word from the deadis going to get them to believe?
No, and that is, I think, sotrue to how the human heart
works.
We think that if I just havemore information, if I just had
a little more proof, if I justhad a sign, well then I'd
(54:31):
believe.
But actually what I see overand over again is that we have a
tendency to interpret the datain a way that just rubber stamps
our previously held beliefs.
Speaker 1 (54:42):
That's good.
What are you grateful for?
Speaker 2 (54:46):
oh man, there's so much.
I feel like god has beenespecially kind to me this last
year with a couple of newfriendships, male friendships.
You know, as a pastor for 20years and pastoring is really
lonely and leading is reallylonely, and so just to have a
(55:09):
couple male friendships just hasfelt like a breath of fresh air
and God's real kindness.
And then I would say mymarriage.
My wife Trisha and I.
We've been married for 22,.
Coming up on 23 years and againbeing a pastor, I mean it almost
(55:32):
.
Our marriage almost didn'tsurvive planting a church, and
so to be able now to look atwhat we have together, it just
feels like such grace that wewere able to move through really
, really hard things and we havethis beautiful relationship.
(55:54):
And then this one is kind ofcheesy, but we have a fireplace.
We bought a new home about ayear ago and we have a fireplace
and we are fire people.
And even in the age ofscreenagers, when you put a fire
in the fireplace, my childrenwill drop their screens and
they're like a moth to the flame.
(56:14):
And so if I were to take thecamera downstairs right now, you
would see we have our lazy boychairs pulled right up to the
front of the fireplace and it'sbeen really cold here, and so
we've had fires going nonstop,and so pretty much every night
around nine o'clock, my entirefamily is within like a five
(56:37):
foot radius of each other, justsitting in front of the fire,
and it just makes my heart sohappy.
Speaker 1 (56:46):
Oh, I love it.
We have a fireplace place toothat we use all the time during
the winter, so that's reallyfunny.
What kindness have you receivedin the last week, or what
kindness have you given?
Speaker 2 (56:57):
I'm trying to think of something really profound for
you.
No, it's, you know it's, it'slittle stuff and that's that's,
I think, is the great lie.
Is that profound equals whatfaithfulness really is?
(57:17):
And that's not true.
Faithfulness is like theselittle daily, little daily
kindnesses.
And, by the way, that wordkindness shows up in the list of
the fruit of the spirit InGreek, I think it's krestotes.
It literally means useful.
So to be kind is to be usefuland I just love this.
(57:41):
Like as a pastor I saw thisover and over again where you
know, when somebody goes throughsomething hard, they'll start
to get the calls and the texts.
If you need anything, just letme know, right, it puts the
(58:02):
burden on the work ofanticipating what they need and
offer it.
So right, the mom who comeshome from the hospital and she's
got her baby and she gets atext message from a friend that
says if you need anything, letus know.
Well, that's really nice, thankyou, that's very nice of you.
If you need anything, let usknow.
(58:22):
Well, that's really nice, thankyou, that's very nice of you.
But kindness is the friend thatcomes over and says all right,
here are three meals, put themin the freezer.
All you got to do is warm themup.
Give me that baby.
You go, lay down and take a nap.
I'm going to feed this baby,I'm going to get this baby
burped, I'll put her down for anap.
You go rest.
And, by the way, my husband'scoming by on Thursday to mow the
(58:44):
lawn, so you guys don't have tothink about it.
That is kindness.
And right here on the windowledge in front of me, my
daughter, my oldest daughter.
She ran into Starbucksyesterday.
She brought me back acappuccino.
She knew I was up here working,been writing for like six hours
straight and it's just thislittle thing of like hey, I see
(59:04):
you, I value you.
Here's this and I just I lovethat you asked the question,
because gratitude begetsgratitude and when you're, when
your mind is focused on what youhave, you just start to see
what you have everywhere.
Speaker 1 (59:22):
Well and I also ask it because, like you were saying
, I think that we have, ingeneral, come up with this lie
that in order to do somethingkind, we have to do something
crazy big.
And then that makes us actuallyoff the hook because, oh well,
I can't do that.
I can't give someone a new car,I can't pay for someone's
mortgage, so I guess I don'thave to do anything, or that it
(59:45):
doesn't matter.
And and this is the point ofthat question is that these
small things are what are whatmatters?
When you were saying that, Iwas thinking we had an ectopic
pregnancy between David andRachel, the thing that I mean,
people brought meals and and Iwill always be thankful for that
and I we didn't ask for them,because you're in such sorrow
(01:00:08):
that you you can't ask.
Like I don't know what I need.
I like I need my baby, butthat's not happening, Right?
And then someone, this one lady,I actually like didn't know her
very well and she was older andshe came over and she literally
did my laundry while I was justin bed.
You know, I had to be in bedand I would never have asked her
(01:00:32):
for that.
I mean, that is that that'spersonal right.
It's like maybe my mom, I wouldsay, yeah, can you do the
laundry.
But this woman that I barelyknew came over and I was just
she like came over, she's likeI'm just gonna be here, I'm
gonna take care of David, yourest.
And then I got up and there waslaundry done and I was like
(01:00:53):
what, like you did what?
Like wow, like that has beenyears and I still remember how
loving that was and maybe shedoesn't even remember, Maybe she
, you know, because it's notreally a big thing, but it is
(01:01:13):
right.
Speaker 2 (01:01:14):
Yes, oh see, this is my wife's superpower is noticing
.
It's such a noticer.
She's like this you could behaving a conversation with her
and you would throw out anoffhand comment about how you
love peppermint mochas.
Well, six weeks could go by andone day she will notice that
(01:01:36):
you're having a rough day andyou'll leave your desk to go to
a meeting and you'll come backand there's a peppermint mocha
at your chair and you say, oh mygosh, I love peppermint mochas.
How did you know?
And she would say because youtold me and you're like wait, no
, I didn't.
Yeah, six weeks ago, and it'sjust this little like.
I saw you, I saw you and it'sjust that small stuff.
(01:02:02):
I to say you know, we'reobsessed with big.
God has big plans for your life.
We're asking god to move in abig way.
I love the idea that god hastiny plans for our life, that,
um, we're asking him to show upin really, really small ways and
we actually can be doing thaton a daily basis.
I love that.
That thought, that thought, isso compelling.
Speaker 1 (01:02:24):
Well, brad, thank you , I have I.
This episode might've just beenfor me, but we will get it out
to everybody.
Speaker 2 (01:02:33):
I'm sorry, I hope it.
I hope it doesn't seem too likeacademic and too heady, cause
that's the like, that's thedanger sometimes, right, right.
Speaker 1 (01:02:43):
No, no, it was wonderful and obviously I'll
link you walking the text.
Thank you so much for your time.
Thank you for your wisdom andyour stories and sharing with us
and at Ordinary PeopleExtraordinary Things.
Your story is his glory.
Wow, this podcast with BradNelson was jam-packed.
(01:03:04):
I have listened to it alreadyabout four times during the
editing process and I'm going tohave to listen to it some more
to keep on getting these littlenuggets.
One thing that just reallyreally stands out to me was that
God has tiny plans for yourlife, and I really like that.
(01:03:27):
The other one that stood out tome is to be kind is to be
useful.
I can't wait to hear how thispodcast has impacted you and, as
always, thanks for listening,thanks for sharing, and we'll
see you back in two weeks.
Welcome to Ordinary People, extraordinary Things.
I'm so glad that you're here.
I'm Nancy, your host, and I getto talk to ordinary people just
like you about real stories,stories of hope.
Don't we all need some morehope in our lives?
If you love this podcast,please share it.
Please share it on social media, send a text, send an email.
(00:23):
Help us get the word out aboutOrdinary People, extraordinary
Things.
Well, welcome to OrdinaryPeople, extraordinary Things.
I'm so glad that Brad is on.
Brad, thanks for being on thepodcast this morning.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
I'm happy to be here.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
So, brad and I, we've gotten to know each other
because you've been able to cometo our church and speak, and
then this friendship has grownand I'm just so grateful for it
and so grateful for the wisdomthat you've poured out to us in
so many ways.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
Thank you.
Thank you Likewise.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
And Brad is part of Walking the Text and I will for
sure put all of the links onthere because I talk about it a
lot.
It is one of the things thathas truly changed our lives, and
just being able to listen.
I even tell people that once aweek it's actually part of our
homeschool agenda.
Now it has been for a few yearsthat we watch one a week, so I
(01:23):
don't think that you necessarilymade it for kids, but, uh, that
it's just been part of ourlives.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
Yeah, that's interesting.
We so it's not made for kids,but we've actually had a number
of homeschool and Christianschool organizations who've
reached out to us who are whoare using it as their Bible
curriculum in their schoolworkand it's really really cool.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
Yeah, I think that at first I was like we were Chris
and I, my husband and I werelistening to it.
And then what happened was andI think I've told you this story
, but it was Christmas time andI had asked the kids like what'd
you learn at church?
And they were like and I hadasked the kids like what did you
learn at church?
And they were like nothing,because we know this story.
And I was like, oh, and there'snothing against, like Sunday
(02:11):
school, love Sunday school, butobviously they're meeting a
certain you know people thatmaybe don't go to church every
single Sunday and you know it isgoing to be a little bit more
surface level.
(02:31):
And so when they said that, Iwas like, oh, my goodness, I
don't want my kids to think thatalready at the age of I don't
know nine, like my son, I've gotthe Bible figured out or I've
at least got the Christmas storyfigured out.
We listened to one of theChristmas ones and my question
at the end, always whenever welisten, is like just one thing,
what's one thing you took away?
And David said I didn't knowany of it and I was like, and
(02:54):
instead of it being a downer,and I guess I don't know
anything about the Bible.
This is way too much.
It was actually so uplifting tohim to have this knowledge that
he didn't have before, and thatwas just so cool to see.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
Yes, yeah, I'll actually.
I'm actually going to talkabout that, I think, as we get
further into the conversation.
But I've always thoughtprobably one of the highest
compliments that you can begiven as a teacher you know when
you're teaching in differentplaces is when somebody who's
been following Jesus for decadesI'll never forget.
One time I taught on Jonah andthis woman who is in her late
(03:32):
seventies came up to me andshe's just was beaming and she
said I've never heard thatbefore.
And I was like, oh yes,that's's like.
Its capacity to just always benew and have something more is
unbelievable, and children canlike they can capture that.
(03:54):
I mean, it blows my mind thatyou know my kids will come with
me to these speaking events andwe'll be riding home and they'll
call back my sermon in context,like with intelligence.
I'm like, oh my gosh, you'renine years old, but you're
connecting those dots.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, before we get too fardown, I do want to say if people
don't know who you are, I wantto ask you what are three words
or phrases to describe yourself?
Speaker 2 (04:22):
phrases to describe yourself.
Yeah, well, one and I do notmean this as a compliment to
myself, but driven, and it is anunfortunate part of my
personality that I am reallyhaving to work against.
One of the things that my wifeand I will often do on Saturday
(04:43):
mornings after coffee is to lookat each other and ask this
question what do you want to getdone today?
Like resting is so hard for me.
In fact, my day off tends to beone of the most difficult days
of the week for me, because Ithink I'm just so addicted to
(05:04):
doing and achieving andconquering.
So that's in there,unfortunately.
Another thing I would say is aquestioner, or maybe curious or
inquisitive.
I, my friends, will often tellme just stop asking questions,
because you ask these questionsthat they poke and they probe
(05:25):
and they prod and like I sawsomebody last week that I
haven't seen in 15 years andwe're like three minutes into
the conversation and I asked hima question and he said to me
geez, haven't seen each other in15 years and we're going
straight into a counselingsession.
So, surface right.
(05:45):
Oh yeah, yeah, there's, there'sthat.
And then, yeah, the other thingI would say would just be
storyteller.
I grew up with family who arejust incredible storytellers,
who love to laugh, and I see theworld through the lens of
stories and very often, you know, come to the end of my day or
(06:08):
the end of my week and I justhave these little stories that I
came across.
That and it's, it's literallymy operating system, it's how I
make sense of the world aroundme.
So I was driven, driven,questioner, storyteller.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
Oh, it's so good.
How did you become sopassionate about learning about
the Bible or teaching about theBible in context, and maybe
would you kind of, I guess, saywhat context means?
I threw out that word and allof a sudden I realized I know
what I'm saying, but maybesomeone who doesn't watch
Walking the Text or hasn't, whodoesn't watch Walking the Text
(06:48):
or hasn't- really talked aboutthe Bible like that might not
know.
Speaker 2 (06:50):
Yeah, well, I think everybody is probably can relate
to.
We've all been taken out ofcontext.
You say something, your wordsget repeated, but the person who
repeats your words doesn'tinclude the certain context in
which you said them.
And you know your words, whentaken out of context, can be
made to mean all kinds of things, and so we understand that.
(07:11):
And what happens is we do thesame thing with the Bible, and
so understanding the context ofthe Bible is to say, all right,
well, what were the situations,what were the settings?
So this would be things likethe history, the culture, the
geography, the literary design,the languages, the Greek and the
(07:33):
Hebrew backgrounds and even thevisual aspects of the Bible,
because, you know, a picture isworth a thousand words, and
people will say this all thetime when they go to the land of
Israel worth a thousand words,and people will say this all the
time when they go to the landof Israel.
It's like you see the Bible ina different way for the rest of
your life because you've beenthere and you've seen, and so
that really is the idea behindcontext, and I would say I think
(07:57):
I was predisposed to fall inlove with that way of reading
the Bible.
First, because I grew up in atradition where I was taught to
love the Bible.
So my father is a SouthernBaptist pastor.
He has been the pastor at FirstBaptist Church of Swartz Creek,
michigan, for over 30 years andI grew up going to church there
(08:20):
and I, just like I knew theBible stories and I loved them
and you know there's a lot frommy Southern Baptist upbringing
that I was happy to leave behindas I've grown and matured.
But, boy, there's a lot of goodthat I have been a real
recipient of that I wanted tohold on to, and so I think it
(08:42):
just it predisposed me.
But exactly like what you weretalking about with your kids, by
the time I graduated highschool and went off to college
and it was a Christian college,christian university.
You've heard these stories ahundred times and I'll never
forget.
I started attending a church inGrand Rapids, michigan, and the
(09:04):
pastor launched the church byspending a year going, verse by
verse, through the book ofLeviticus in its ancient Jewish
context, and it was absolutelymind blowing for a couple of
reasons.
One, when you started to piecetogether the culture, the
(09:25):
history, the geography, a lot oftimes these passages that you
thought you understood or thatwere just really weird and
didn't make any sense at all.
Well, once you added thatinformation, they started to
make perfect sense, and so thatwas really fascinating.
But then what it did is it gaveme and maybe you're familiar
with this phrase a secondnaivete.
(09:53):
It's like that feeling whensomething that you've had or
possessed for a long time andyou thought you had it figured
out, it's like it's brand newall over again and that is the
endearing nature of the Bible tome is like there is just no end
.
You know, the Bible is reallythis genre of what we would call
Jewish meditation literature.
In other words, tim Mackey ofthe Bible Project says this a
(10:17):
lot that the Bible is notdesigned to yield its secrets
easily.
It's the kind of thing you'remeant to meditate on and chew on
.
And, by the way, that wordmeditate in Hebrew is haggah,
and it can mean to meditate, butit can also mean to chew, like
the way that a lion would devourits prey and give out these
(10:41):
like growls of delight whileit's chewing it.
We're meant to read scripturethat way so long, lovingly,
slowly, savoringly, and overtime it just keeps giving off
more and more and more.
So I, you know, it was that Ihad that love for the Bible
number one.
The context made sense of stuffthat was confusing and it gave
(11:04):
me that second naivete.
And so I mean, then I went onan Israel trip and you know,
once you see, you can't unsee,once you taste, you can't
untaste.
And I was, I was hooked.
Speaker 1 (11:16):
What if someone's listening and saying so?
I can never figure it out.
Is that exciting for you or isthat frustrating?
Speaker 2 (11:28):
Well.
So I would nuance that to saythis I think that there is this
misunderstanding about wisdom.
I used to think when I wasyoung that wisdom meant having
all the answers, and the olderyou got, the more wise you were,
the more you had all theanswers.
(11:48):
But of course, the older I getand the more I learn, the less
I'm certain of, but, strangely,the more I'm confident in and I
actually think that you see thisespecially when you read
through the wisdom literature,in the Bible, proverbs
especially, you see that realwisdom is not having all the
(12:11):
answers, but knowing just howmuch you don't know and putting
yourself in this like rightplace before God.
That's like you are, god.
I'm not, I don't have all theanswers, but my job is to be a
student who's pursuing, and Iactually love that because, you
(12:36):
know, I grew up in a traditionwhere the pastor was supposed to
be Bible answer man.
But there is something aboutthis.
Wow, there's always somethingnew.
You never quite get to thebottom, it's all.
It's almost like you're notmeant to master the Bible, the
Bible's meant to master you, andas it comes to master you more
(12:59):
and more, oh, it's just a.
It's just, it's a joyous, ajoyous experience good, that's
really good.
I don't know if I'd want tofollow a god that I could
completely understand yep, well,exactly because then, if, if
you completely understand andyou can pull all the levers,
(13:22):
then you're just dealing with acosmic vending machine and let
God, as a projection of you,which we all are guilty of at
some point, what would you sayto someone who's listening,
that's afraid to dive in becausemaybe they're saying, like
faith is just believing and I'lljust believe.
Speaker 1 (13:44):
And this is how I felt in high school.
College was really wanted tobelieve in God.
I really wanted to keepbelieving in God, but I was
afraid to do any kind of oflearning because I thought what
if God can't hold up?
What if he can't hold up toscience?
What if he can't hold up to myquestions?
What would you say to someonewho's in that boat?
Speaker 2 (14:08):
Yeah.
So first I would just say Iwould start with compassion
because I think it is a validfear.
And it's a valid fear because,having gone through a pretty
tragic experience in my lifethat forced me into a crisis of
faith, I can say, withoutquestion, it is incredibly
(14:31):
unnerving to have yourfoundation pulled out from
underneath you, your worldview,the way you think about God, who
God is, how he interacts withthe world, interacts with the
world right, and then youexperience cancer or somebody
dies.
In my case, you know, mybrother-in-law was a friend of
mine, married my little sister.
(14:52):
They were 21 years old.
He went to Iraq, was there for30 days and was killed by an
explosion, an improvisedexplosive, and it just gutted,
it, absolutely destroyed myfaith.
I was praying for him morefaithfully than I'd prayed for
anything else in my entire life.
My whole family was and I'mholding on to.
(15:14):
You know these promises.
You know the prayer of arighteous person is effective.
You have not, because you asknot If you pray with faith
believing.
You ask not if you pray withfaith believing and I just was
like, how can this be?
We, we were doing everythingright and his death really
exposed my faith for the houseof cards that it was, and I
(15:37):
spent a year like wrestling,asking questions and and,
honestly, raging, raging againstGod.
And I came to this place whereI realized, okay, either Karl
Marx was right and religion isjust an opiate for the masses to
(15:58):
make people feel better abouttheir misery, or I have
misunderstood this thing fromthe ground up and I have to go
back and rethink everything.
And so that's what I did, andit was terrifying.
Really, it's just to have therug pulled out from under you
(16:21):
does not feel good, and Iactually think that there are
like, we may get to a point inlife.
I think anybody, anybody canrethink things, anybody.
But I think the tendency ofhuman beings is we get to a
certain point in life.
Like, I have certain familymembers who are at an age where
I don't think they could do thatwork.
(16:44):
It would just be too upsetting,right.
So I would just begin by sayingit's a valid fear, but I would
say also it's a pretty low viewof God.
Like, what if God can't standup to science?
Well, what do you believe inthen?
Really, like, do you believe inthe power of science over the
(17:06):
power of God?
Do you believe you know Godcan't handle your questions.
I mean, look at the Psalms.
God has room for people's rage.
God actually invites people'squestions, their lament, their
rage and so, but we're just nottold that.
(17:26):
We're not told that and this isthe thing I would say is that
life will bring you to thisplace.
Pain is often the doorway tothese kind of deeper reaches of
the soul, and not everybody goesthere.
Catholic theologians have thisway of thinking about spiritual
development that they'll talkabout.
(17:48):
There's a first half of lifeand a second half of life, and
in the first half of life, kindof faith, it's really all about,
you know, building a name foryourself, figuring out who you
are, figuring out who God is,figuring out what your beliefs
are and all that good stuff,figuring out who God is,
figuring out what your beliefsare and all that good stuff.
But then in your second half oflife, everything that you've
(18:12):
been gathering up to sort ofprop yourself up, you realize I
really need to now spend thesecond half of my life emptying
all this out.
Typically, what moves peoplefrom first half of life faith
into second half of life?
Faith is the experience of somegreat pain, and so I would say
sometimes we resist doing thatwork and if we resist it, life
has a way of pushing us into itanyways.
(18:34):
But when you get pushed throughthe doorway because of pain,
not everybody like goes throughand grows.
Some people will actuallydouble down.
They'll go back harder on theirtribal theology, the faith that
they were handed in theirchildhood.
They will double down.
(18:54):
Others will just disbelieve.
I'm not going to do the work oftrying to understand this from
the ground up, so I'm just donewith it.
But if you'll let it, pain willdisappoint you into depth of
trying to understand this fromthe ground up, so I'm just I'm
done with it.
But if you'll let it, pain willdisappoint you into depth.
And actually I think thatthat's been one of the greatest
(19:16):
gifts of my life is seeing theway that God redeems pain and
pain then becomes this really,really powerful doorway through
which he's able to breathe newlife into the world how, like
what did you?
Speaker 1 (19:30):
what did you have to relearn, I guess?
Or what, if you want to share?
Or like how, those passagesthat you talked about about
prayer, how have you understoodthose now?
Speaker 2 (19:44):
Yeah.
So for starters, I've come tounderstand the Bible as it's a
story, and it's a story that'sheaded somewhere.
It's a story that's got a pointand it's a story that's an
invitation to participate inwhere God is moving everything
right.
And because we get toparticipate, we also get to
(20:10):
choose not to participate.
So God, for whatever reason, iscarrying out his good purposes
through the agency and the willof people who either get on
board or don't, and when theydon't, it actually frustrates
God's will, like gets in the wayof it right.
(20:31):
So for me it was like, okay,prayer is not a gumball machine
where I just do the right things, put in my quarter, twist the
dial and out comes the thingthat I was hoping for.
Prayer is actually about melearning to yield to what it is
(20:53):
that God wants, right.
So I grew up with this ideathat prayer was primarily about
me expressing my feelings.
But actually the Hebrew peoplethe way that they learned to
pray was by praying the Psalms,literally memorizing the Psalms.
So if you look at Job's prayerin the belly of the fish in the
(21:16):
book of Job, every single lineof his prayer is stolen from the
Psalms and it's not an originalprayer.
He's borrowed from the Psalmsand weaved together this prayer,
but what's interesting is thathe prays a prayer from the
Psalms that is totally at oddswith his situation.
(21:38):
You would expect him, with hisback against an intestinal wall,
that he is going to pray aprayer of lament, but instead he
prays Psalms that are a prayerof thanksgiving.
So he prays at a way that istotally at odds with his
feelings.
And I think this is the wisdomof Jewish prayer is we don't
(21:58):
pray in order to express what wefeel.
We pray God's words in order tofeel what God's words express.
Right, so it's about yieldingwhat it is that I want to what
it is God wants.
(22:18):
Now that doesn't mean that Idon't pray for, you know,
someone to be healed, or for Godto, you know, help us
financially.
Of course I still pray thosethings and of course I still
think God cares about that stuff.
But there is this otherdimension of reality.
That's not about me getting myway, but about this big story
(22:41):
that God's unfolding and howI've been invited to be a part
of it.
So that was a big part of merethinking prayer.
Honestly.
Another big part of it wasthinking about the problem of
evil.
So you know God, if you are incontrol, why would you let my
brother die?
But then, when you go back intothe story of the scriptures and
(23:03):
you look at it in its context,oh my gosh, some really
disturbing stuff about evilstarts to show up.
There is this group in theHebrew scriptures and you can
find it in several passagescalled the divine council, and
this is kind of like God'sheavenly courtroom, and these
(23:25):
are all these supernaturalbeings, the Elohim, the sons of
God, and it's as though God hasdelegated authority to these
supernatural beings to help himrule the earth right.
And those beings have this freewill to get on board and do it
(23:45):
God's way or go their own way.
And so, like in the book ofDaniel, chapter 10, daniel's
praying, and three weeks go byand this angel shows up and says
hey, I was dispatched to youthe minute you started praying,
but I actually did battle withthe prince of Persia.
He resisted me for three weeksand it's taken me three weeks to
(24:07):
get here.
And so for me that was like,okay, hold up, hold up, hold up.
What if?
What if?
God's intent, of course, was toanswer my prayer and keep my
brother safe, but because welive in a world where God has
allowed us to exercise freedom,where he has allowed even these
(24:29):
supernatural beings to exercisefreedom, and they fight against
it, that, like death, exists.
So it's not God who let thathappen, it's evil at work.
And so for me it was just likeoh okay, I don't have to lay
this at the feet of God and saythis is your fault.
Actually, when I understand thestory of scripture, it's much
(24:54):
more complex, it makes moresense, and it helps me wrestle
with some of these like deeper,deeper issues.
Does that make sense?
Well, there was a lot there.
Speaker 1 (25:07):
I'm sorry.
No, it was so good, it's sointeresting.
Last Saturday, david was askingabout, like, the difference of
seraphim, cherubims andseraphims and angels.
They seem to be three differentkinds, yep, and I was like, oh
my, like, oh, this is a lotbuddy.
(25:28):
So I'm doing all this researchand I came across the Bible
Project, which I think youmentioned, and we're in the
middle of watching their littleseries on that because I was
like I love that he hasquestions.
I honestly don't always havethe answers because it's just a
lot and they probably don't haveall the answers either.
Right, and just remembering,remembering that as well.
(25:51):
Yeah, it's just so funny youbrought that up, cause I was
like, yeah, we're actuallywatching that little series on
that.
Yeah, so would you say thatthat God is what?
What is that Christian wordthat we use for God that says
that he's in control ofeverything?
That, like, he either says itcan happen or he allows it to
(26:13):
happen, or am I making any sense?
Uh, yeah, I.
Speaker 2 (26:17):
I understand what you're saying.
Yeah, for whatever reason, godin his wisdom has decided to
carry out his purposes inpartnership with people and also
, if you get into the weeds ofthe divine council in the Hebrew
(26:40):
scriptures, he's decided tocarry out his purposes in
partnership with these Elohim,these supernatural beings.
So I don't know how that allplays out, like god is going to
bring about god's purposes but,for whatever reason, he does it
(27:01):
in partnership with us and where, like his will and way ends and
our free choices play into I.
I don't know.
I don't know the details of howthat works, but I know that like
that's sort of how it works inall of the relationships that
that I have in my own life.
(27:22):
Like there is this I'm likewhen I think about my children,
like I'm your dad, but I alsorecognize that I can't control
you.
Like, in order for us to have aloving, flourishing family, you
have to, as a child, learn towant what is right for yourself.
Speaker 1 (28:01):
Is this coming together of me exercising
authority and control as the dad, but also leaving room for
freedom so that it's theirchoice, right, yeah, yeah.
What would you say to someonewho is afraid, like maybe they
heard something just in whatyou're saying and they're like
oh, I've never heard this orthat sounds too scary to dive
(28:22):
into.
Or you know, I grew up Catholicand, like you, I'm so grateful
for, for the faith that myparents instilled in me.
I have a sense stop practicingCatholicism, but that's scary.
Right To do something differentthan you're comfortable with,
wanting to be respectful of yourfamily and your, what you were
brought up in.
But what would you say tosomeone that's like what?
(28:43):
What if I, what if my thingschange?
What if that means that what Ireally thought was so important,
god's like, it actually isn't?
But this is really important.
But that's scary right, I meanit is.
Speaker 2 (28:58):
Yeah, human.
I mean, we don't like change,we like to get things sorted out
and cement them in place.
But you know, here's theproblem with that Human beings
are not static creatures, we'redynamic creatures.
Change is expected, change isassumed.
It is the nature of reality.
(29:18):
My marriage is different todaythan it was 20 years ago.
My relationships are differenttoday than they are 20.
I am I think I even saw a studyonce that, like your, the cells
in your body, they change sofrequently that basically every
seven years you are a totallynew person at the cellular level
(29:40):
.
So we are, we are constantlychanging, and to sort of dig
your heels in and say, well, Idon't like that, I understand it
, but at some level it's alsokind of like a refusal to live
in reality.
Change is just the nature ofthe world that we inhabit.
(30:00):
You really then have thisinvitation to.
What would it look like toembrace that?
And here's a metaphor that'sbeen really, really helpful for
me.
I remember seeing this when Iread the Chronicles of Narnia,
and in the very last book.
You know, the people go throughthe doorway and they're in this
(30:22):
like new creation, this newheaven, this new Narnia, and
they keep being invited furtherup and further in, further up
come, further up and further in.
There's more, it's better, andthe deeper they go on the
journey, the bigger Narniabecomes, the more real it
becomes, the more glorious itbecomes, and that really is what
(30:47):
my experience of faith, theBible and God have been like.
So there's a famous picture ifyou can picture it in your mind
of the Grand Tetons in thedistance, and in the foreground
of this picture there's thiscabin.
It's really beautiful, it'slike a rustic picture.
But imagine that you and I areon a hike and we're walking
(31:08):
towards the Tetons and from 10miles away we can look at that
mountain range and say, oh yeah,here's what it looks like the
journey is going to require.
We're going to have to go eastover there.
Obviously we're going to haveto scale up there, and then
we're going to have to go leftthere and then we're going to
have to backtrack a little bitand then we can go north.
(31:29):
It all seems so clear.
But the deeper into the journeyyou get, the bigger the
mountain becomes, the more realit becomes, and as you get into
it you start to realize, ah, wecouldn't see this from back
there and actually we don't haveto go this way.
(31:51):
We actually need to go this wayand, in fact, the only way the
journey can continue is if weare willing to rethink the
things that were so certain backthere and this, I think, is
what holds a lot of people backin continuing to mature and grow
in their faith is this refusalto rethink.
(32:13):
And, by the way, that is whatthe word repent means in Greek,
metanoeo it is to change yourmind.
And I don't think that werepent just once, because, yes,
you repent, you give yourallegiance to Jesus Christ, but
then you give yourself to thislife of discipleship, which is
all about what the Apostle Paulcalls taking on the mind of
(32:37):
Christ.
So you are literally dailytrying to change your mind in
order to see things the way thatJesus saw them, and if that is
the kind of life you say yes to,oh man, buckle up, because you
are going to be doing a lot ofchanging.
Speaker 1 (33:02):
What would you say to someone who does know a lot
about the Bible and they getfrustrated when they hear things
that aren't quite biblical?
And I'm sure you get this allthe time because you are so
knowledgeable in the Bible.
How do you, I guess, be humble?
But also, are there times whenyou can talk with someone, or is
(33:26):
it just kind of seeing how thatrelationship is?
Speaker 2 (33:32):
Yeah, Well, for one, like you said, humility.
I think is is so crucial and Ithink it's actually a test of
true wisdom Because, like I said, real wisdom is knowing just
how much you don't know, notwalking around saying, look at
it, look at how much I know youknow, not walking around
(33:53):
pointing out all the ways peopleare wrong.
And also, another thing thathas been really it's just a
thought that's always been in mymind when this comes up is you
know, there was a stage on thejourney where that way of
thinking or that way of makingsense of things was really
helpful for me.
And it could be that there arepeople right now for whom that
(34:19):
way of thinking is reallyhelpful.
And it's the first part of thejourney.
And I don't even like thatlanguage, because that even
sounds like oh, I'm, you know,further along than you and one
day you'll be where I'm at.
I don't like that, but it is.
You know, like we need allkinds of churches, we need all
(34:39):
kinds of teaching.
I think we need every voicemaking sense of the text,
twisting the gem, helping uslook at it from different angles
.
So you know, there's that.
But yeah, I do think that thereis like this and this is what I
love about context so much iswhen you can come to the Bible
(35:00):
and ask the question not what doI think or what does this mean
for me, but what did this meanfor them then?
Oh gosh, that just creates suchnew and interesting and
exciting ways to think about thetext and ways in.
(35:23):
But, as you've said, noteverybody's up for that.
It's not for everyone, itreally isn't.
I grew up in a veryanti-intellectual church.
My parents made jokes aboutpeople who had PhDs and they
called seminary cemetery, andI'm sure they hated it.
When I went, Because in theirmind, people who get smart go
(35:43):
crazy, they go off the deep end,and they would tell me you went
to college and you becameliberal.
I'm like, no, I didn't.
Just because I went to schooldoesn't make me liberal, but so
there is some fear of that.
But it's so worth the journey.
It's so worth the journey.
Speaker 1 (36:02):
Yeah, well, and you have been kind of walking us
through some questions thatChris and I had, and you were
like, hey, maybe look at it thisway, and you've given us so
many tools and and books.
So thank you for being graciouswith us, as we're kind of
always learning, and you do thatso well, though.
Instead of being like how couldyou do that so well, though,
instead of being like how couldyou think that you're such an
(36:25):
idiot?
or like you know, just uh well,you know, this is what I thought
.
This is kind of what I thinknow.
This book helped me and like wecan always still be friends
even if we end up staying ondifferent sides of this question
.
So, um, I think that you'regifted in that well.
Speaker 2 (36:42):
Thank you.
I've had some really goodmentors along the way who
modeled that really well.
Speaker 1 (36:47):
So we talked about knowing a lot about the Bible
and learning, and I think when Iwas growing up it was don't
talk about religion, don't talkabout politics.
At least that's kind of how theworld kind of seemed to me.
That's kind of how the worldkind of seemed to me.
And now it feels like throwyourself into talking and
telling everybody about yourpolitics and your religion and
(37:11):
don't worry if it hurts people.
I think it was kind of what Iwas saying with your question of
like, if you have a differentthought about the Bible than
someone else, maybe how do you?
I think you can talk about it.
I mean, like you said, we'vetalked about it and you've been
like, hey, maybe look at this.
So I'm not saying you can'ttalk about it, but I feel like
(37:33):
from when I grew up of don'ttalk about politics or religion
to now we're on the otherspectrum of almost like just
throw it all out there and bemean to each other.
And you know, we just camethrough a new president coming
into office and there's so muchtension and oh, it's kind of a
(37:58):
difficult spot to live in, right?
What would you say to people aswe're?
Speaker 2 (38:23):
What would you say to people as we're diving into
religion and tribal, that I'veever seen in the world and I
definitely felt it as a pastor Alot of pressure to say our
thing, like quote our people,don't quote the wrong person,
don't read the wrong books.
(38:44):
So there is a lot of pressureto pick your side and you know
and go on the attack.
And I think it's just helpfulto remember.
You know, first and foremost,if you are a follower of Jesus,
(39:08):
a follower of Jesus, yourprimary citizenship is in heaven
.
Our primary citizenship is asapprentices to Jesus, disciples
of his way and kind of.
The core of that is love Godand love others.
And how do you love God?
Well, you do it by lovingothers.
So, unfortunately, the truthabout like a polarized society
and a tribal society is that itis much easier to build
(39:31):
community with people when youshare a common enemy.
And you see this all over,actually, in the New Testament
moments where the Pharisees andthe Herodians will team up
together to eliminate Jesus.
Well, the Herodians were allabout keeping Herod and Rome in
power and the Pharisees kind ofhad this bent of like revolution
(39:55):
, and so they're diametricallyopposed but they come into
league together to eliminateJesus.
Or you've got Herod, antipasand Pontius Pilate, who they're
not friends, they're kind ofenemies, but they come together
around Jesus's trial andcrucifixion and the text says
(40:17):
that they became friends fromthat moment onward.
And so there is a seductionright now to build community
around common enemies and thatis so antithetical to the
kingdom of God.
So just to be aware of that Ithink is huge, and you know the
(40:39):
text will talk in all kinds ofways about you know, honor the
authorities, right.
Pray for your leaders.
It's God who puts these leadersin place positions and
(41:07):
situations where the rulers andauthorities over them put
themselves in a place wherethey're making a claim on God's
place, right.
So when Babylon wants to set upa statue and, like you know,
daniel and all your friends,you're going to bow down and
you're going to worship thestatue and Daniel's like no,
well, daniel works for thegovernment, he has a Babylonian
name, but he draws the line.
(41:28):
And you see that same kind ofthing in the New Testament where
man, these followers of Jesus,they care about their
communities, they care abouttheir government, they're going
to pray, they're going tosupport, they're going to work,
they're going to invest, butthere will be these moments
where they have to play the roleand again I'm getting this
(41:49):
language from the Bible projectabout Daniel and even about, you
know, some of the followers ofJesus in the New Testament where
they're loyal subversives.
I mean, peter says to thereligious leaders in the book of
Acts we have to obey God, notmen.
We have to obey God, not people.
(42:11):
And when people put themselvesin positions to make claims that
well, that's God's territory,that's where you kind of have to
draw the line and say I don'tthink so.
That's a kind of idolatry thatyou know needs to be named and
challenged and confronted.
(42:32):
So, on the whole, I think Iactually think Christians have
this like really powerfulopportunity right now to love
others really well by being someof those peaceable voices that
you can talk to, and they're notgoing to treat you as an enemy
because you know you think thisway, or cast you aside because
(42:52):
you think this way.
They're going to stay engaged.
Speaker 1 (42:56):
So you might say that one of our, one of the things
that we can do, is to try not toget into like kind of tribes,
as you called them, and and justhave conversations with people
and not.
Speaker 2 (43:09):
Yeah I mean, go all the way back to genesis 12, when
god chooses abraham and makesit.
You know he's going to make acovenant with abraham.
He's going to bless all of theworld through abraham.
The whole idea about that thatis so revolutionary is that
tribes exist for the benefit ofthemselves, and what God does by
(43:33):
choosing Abraham and giving hisfamily this mission to bless
the whole world, is he basicallysays hey, you are going to be a
tribe that exists for theblessing and benefit of all
other tribes.
So, yeah, resist thattemptation to get sucked into
(43:53):
the polarization.
But also remember that, ascitizens of the kingdom of
heaven, like, why am I here?
Well, I am here to blesseveryone.
Well, I am here to blesseveryone, so how can I be a
blessing in this conversation?
Speaker 1 (44:15):
How can I bless this person, even if they're my enemy
, which is one of Jesus'steachings that's so challenging
in the New Testament?
Yeah, yeah, well, this has beena great conversation.
Speaker 2 (44:25):
Well, as we wrap up, this might be a hard question
for you what is your favoriteBible verse or story?
Yeah, that is a hard questionbecause I feel like it's sort of
like asking a cat lady whichcat is your favorite?
Speaker 1 (44:36):
As a Bible teacher.
Speaker 2 (44:38):
Yeah, well, the truth is and this is a frustrating
answer to your question but myfavorite one is, whatever one I
happen to be working on at themoment, because of that
discovery that, oh, there'salways something new.
You know, like yesterday I gota text message from somebody
asking me a question about theparable of the rich man and
(45:01):
Lazarus, and so I literally justspent 10 minutes.
I looked at two commentaries,sat with the verse for a second
and sent a reply back and I sawsomething I've never seen before
.
That totally transformed thatstory for me and I'm like I love
this passage and I want to finda way to teach on this in the
(45:22):
next, you know, week or two.
So that's whatever what I'mworking on.
But I would say if there is acenter of gravity over the years
, it's been the Sermon on theMount.
Like if you want to understandthe core, the curriculum for
what it means to be a discipleof Jesus and to become like him,
the Sermon on the Mount is theheart and soul.
(45:45):
And so, even as a pastor, Ijust made this commitment we
will go, verse by verse, throughthe Sermon on the Mount once
every five years.
It's that important, it's liketrue north.
You just got to keep comingback to it and letting it
reorient you.
Speaker 1 (46:01):
Yeah, I think that's one that you'd have to get into
context, though, right I yeah?
Speaker 2 (46:07):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 1 (46:08):
Yeah, do you have a teaching on that one?
Speaker 2 (46:11):
On the Sermon on the Mount.
Yeah, yes, many.
I think the one that was mostenlightening for me has to do
with Jesus's teachings onnonviolence, and so especially
the whole turn the other cheekthing.
So right in the ancient world,you, you eat and do business
(46:35):
with your, your right hand, likewe sign documents, we shake
hands, all that kind of stuff.
You do private bathroom stuffwith your left hand, so you
don't use your left hand.
And Jesus says if somebodystrikes you on the right cheek,
well, if I'm standing in frontof you and I don't use my left
(46:57):
hand in this culture and Istrike you with my right hand on
your right cheek, it's abackhand right.
And here's the thing you haveto understand about the
Mediterranean world and theancient Near East, especially
Greco-Roman culture, is that itis highly, highly stratified,
(47:19):
probably the most stratifiedsociety history has ever seen.
It's all about like a socialhierarchy and where you fall on
the hierarchy, and so the blowof a backhand is the blow of
somebody who's higher than youon the social hierarchy.
And so what Jesus basicallysays is all right, let them take
(47:40):
the blow, absorb the blow.
Don't't respond with evil,don't respond by hitting them
back.
Turn to them your other cheek.
Well, if I've just struck youwith my right hand and you turn
your other cheek to me, the mostnatural thing in the world is
going to be for me to do whatLeft hand Right Like to, to hit
(48:06):
you with an open hand this time,this way it's.
It would be super awkward forme to kind of have to like, come
around this way and try, andyou know so.
The point is that if somebodystrikes you this way, what
they've just communicated toeverybody watching is that you
are my equal.
So what Jesus is really gettingat is a way to deal with
(48:31):
violence that is creative andthrows it back on its heels.
So you absorb the violencethat's done to you.
You refuse to respond in kind.
You refuse to respond in kind.
(48:52):
You surprise it with creativegrace or creative response that,
at the very same moment,exposes it for the sham that it
is, and that, to me, is thegenius of the Jesus way.
I mean, it's what Martin LutherKing Jr did with nonviolent
action.
It's what Gandhi did withnonviolent action.
They took Jesus's teachings andput them into practice in a way
that totally transformed theworld, and to me that one is
(49:17):
like okay, it's always in mymind and I didn't realize it
when I put this teachingtogether at the time but the the
acronym absorb, refuse,surprise, expose, arse right,
and so you know my thought isyou know, when somebody cuts me
off in traffic and I just likethis, anger, absorb, refuse,
(49:37):
surprise, expose, what does itlook like to not respond with
anger but to surprise this withcreative grace when you know
there's conflict with anotherperson?
Absorb, refuse, surprise,expose.
That teaching has been soincredibly helpful for me.
Speaker 1 (49:58):
Yeah, I had heard it that then they would.
They would have to do theirleft hand and they would like
kind of stop because that wouldbe so terrible, because that was
the one they used for theirbathroom.
Speaker 2 (50:13):
Okay, See, I've never heard that, but like from what,
from what?
Everything that I've read, youjust you, pretty much this was
just reserved for you, Okay.
Speaker 1 (50:23):
So it's kind of the same thought, though, right,
it's like oh, I'm coming at,like what?
Oh?
Speaker 2 (50:28):
yeah, okay.
Speaker 1 (50:31):
I'm learning so much.
What could you?
Could you tell us about whatyou were talking about?
This, like little nugget yougot about Lazarus and the.
Speaker 2 (50:40):
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So I mean the person'squestion's question was hey, if
it's a parable, why does jesusname the, the poor beggar?
lazarus right and um, soparables they're.
Have you ever been tellingsomebody a story and you're
trying to like get the pointacross and they keep
(51:02):
interrupting you and askingdetailed questions and they're
like, well, wait, but were theshoes red or were they blue?
And you finally you get upsetand you're like the color of the
shoes is not the point.
The point is that there wereshoes.
Sometimes parables work thatway where when we get into too
much, like, well, what does thissymbolize and how do we draw
(51:26):
parallels?
Doing that too much can makemore of the parable than is
there.
So it could be that Lazarus,who knows why there is no, you
know meaning to why.
But, as we've been discussing,the Jewish people believe that
you never get to the bottom ofthe bible, so they delighted to
(51:50):
savor and meditate and wrestlewith and find new insights, new
spiritual insights, and I thinkwe're called to do the same
thing, right?
So I started looking into thestory and here's the interesting
contextual nugget.
That story about the rich manand Lazarus is a really
well-known folk tale in theancient world and Jesus was not
(52:13):
the first person to tell thisstory.
In fact, when he started totell the parable, his listeners
would have been like oh, I knowthis story, I've heard this
before, but what would have madethe record player screech to a
halt for them is that Jesuschanges the detail, because in
the ancient folktale version ofthat story the rich person is
(52:34):
allowed to send a message backfrom Hades, but in Jesus's
version of the story version ofthe story he's not.
And the reason he's not is ifyour family has not listened to
Moses and the prophets, theywon't believe a word that comes
back from the dead.
And here's the interestingthing Lazarus in Hebrew is a
(53:00):
shortened version of the nameEleazar, which means God helps,
and I think kind of the point ofthe story is God has been
helping your family throughMoses and the prophets, and if
they have said no to that helpover and over and over and over
again, over and over and, overand over again, at what point do
(53:25):
you become unable to receivehelp, even when it's a word from
the dead, right?
So there is this idea that ifyou say no and you see this
actually even in the story ofExodus, with a hardening of
Pharaoh's heart if you make achoice over and over and over
(53:46):
and over and over again, youbecome incapable of making
another choice, which is why ourhabits are so, so powerful.
But I think that's kind of thenugget.
The aha is like no, no, no,I've been giving you help.
They've had help.
(54:06):
It's been there all along inMoses and the prophets and they
turned a deaf ear to it.
You think a word from the deadis going to get them to believe?
No, and that is, I think, sotrue to how the human heart
works.
We think that if I just havemore information, if I just had
a little more proof, if I justhad a sign, well then I'd
(54:31):
believe.
But actually what I see overand over again is that we have a
tendency to interpret the datain a way that just rubber stamps
our previously held beliefs.
Speaker 1 (54:42):
That's good.
What are you grateful for?
Speaker 2 (54:46):
oh man, there's so much.
I feel like god has beenespecially kind to me this last
year with a couple of newfriendships, male friendships.
You know, as a pastor for 20years and pastoring is really
lonely and leading is reallylonely, and so just to have a
(55:09):
couple male friendships just hasfelt like a breath of fresh air
and God's real kindness.
And then I would say mymarriage.
My wife Trisha and I.
We've been married for 22,.
Coming up on 23 years and againbeing a pastor, I mean it almost
(55:32):
.
Our marriage almost didn'tsurvive planting a church, and
so to be able now to look atwhat we have together, it just
feels like such grace that wewere able to move through really
, really hard things and we havethis beautiful relationship.
(55:54):
And then this one is kind ofcheesy, but we have a fireplace.
We bought a new home about ayear ago and we have a fireplace
and we are fire people.
And even in the age ofscreenagers, when you put a fire
in the fireplace, my childrenwill drop their screens and
they're like a moth to the flame.
(56:14):
And so if I were to take thecamera downstairs right now, you
would see we have our lazy boychairs pulled right up to the
front of the fireplace and it'sbeen really cold here, and so
we've had fires going nonstop,and so pretty much every night
around nine o'clock, my entirefamily is within like a five
(56:37):
foot radius of each other, justsitting in front of the fire,
and it just makes my heart sohappy.
Speaker 1 (56:46):
Oh, I love it.
We have a fireplace place toothat we use all the time during
the winter, so that's reallyfunny.
What kindness have you receivedin the last week, or what
kindness have you given?
Speaker 2 (56:57):
I'm trying to think of something really profound for
you.
No, it's, you know it's, it'slittle stuff and that's that's,
I think, is the great lie.
Is that profound equals whatfaithfulness really is?
(57:17):
And that's not true.
Faithfulness is like theselittle daily, little daily
kindnesses.
And, by the way, that wordkindness shows up in the list of
the fruit of the spirit InGreek, I think it's krestotes.
It literally means useful.
So to be kind is to be usefuland I just love this.
(57:41):
Like as a pastor I saw thisover and over again where you
know, when somebody goes throughsomething hard, they'll start
to get the calls and the texts.
If you need anything, just letme know, right, it puts the
(58:02):
burden on the work ofanticipating what they need and
offer it.
So right, the mom who comeshome from the hospital and she's
got her baby and she gets atext message from a friend that
says if you need anything, letus know.
Well, that's really nice, thankyou, that's very nice of you.
If you need anything, let usknow.
(58:22):
Well, that's really nice, thankyou, that's very nice of you.
But kindness is the friend thatcomes over and says all right,
here are three meals, put themin the freezer.
All you got to do is warm themup.
Give me that baby.
You go, lay down and take a nap.
I'm going to feed this baby,I'm going to get this baby
burped, I'll put her down for anap.
You go rest.
And, by the way, my husband'scoming by on Thursday to mow the
(58:44):
lawn, so you guys don't have tothink about it.
That is kindness.
And right here on the windowledge in front of me, my
daughter, my oldest daughter.
She ran into Starbucksyesterday.
She brought me back acappuccino.
She knew I was up here working,been writing for like six hours
straight and it's just thislittle thing of like hey, I see
(59:04):
you, I value you.
Here's this and I just I lovethat you asked the question,
because gratitude begetsgratitude and when you're, when
your mind is focused on what youhave, you just start to see
what you have everywhere.
Speaker 1 (59:22):
Well and I also ask it because, like you were saying
, I think that we have, ingeneral, come up with this lie
that in order to do somethingkind, we have to do something
crazy big.
And then that makes us actuallyoff the hook because, oh well,
I can't do that.
I can't give someone a new car,I can't pay for someone's
mortgage, so I guess I don'thave to do anything, or that it
(59:45):
doesn't matter.
And and this is the point ofthat question is that these
small things are what are whatmatters?
When you were saying that, Iwas thinking we had an ectopic
pregnancy between David andRachel, the thing that I mean,
people brought meals and and Iwill always be thankful for that
and I we didn't ask for them,because you're in such sorrow
(01:00:08):
that you you can't ask.
Like I don't know what I need.
I like I need my baby, butthat's not happening, Right?
And then someone, this one lady,I actually like didn't know her
very well and she was older andshe came over and she literally
did my laundry while I was justin bed.
You know, I had to be in bedand I would never have asked her
(01:00:32):
for that.
I mean, that is that that'spersonal right.
It's like maybe my mom, I wouldsay, yeah, can you do the
laundry.
But this woman that I barelyknew came over and I was just
she like came over, she's likeI'm just gonna be here, I'm
gonna take care of David, yourest.
And then I got up and there waslaundry done and I was like
(01:00:53):
what, like you did what?
Like wow, like that has beenyears and I still remember how
loving that was and maybe shedoesn't even remember, Maybe she
, you know, because it's notreally a big thing, but it is
(01:01:13):
right.
Speaker 2 (01:01:14):
Yes, oh see, this is my wife's superpower is noticing
.
It's such a noticer.
She's like this you could behaving a conversation with her
and you would throw out anoffhand comment about how you
love peppermint mochas.
Well, six weeks could go by andone day she will notice that
(01:01:36):
you're having a rough day andyou'll leave your desk to go to
a meeting and you'll come backand there's a peppermint mocha
at your chair and you say, oh mygosh, I love peppermint mochas.
How did you know?
And she would say because youtold me and you're like wait, no
, I didn't.
Yeah, six weeks ago, and it'sjust this little like.
I saw you, I saw you and it'sjust that small stuff.
(01:02:02):
I to say you know, we'reobsessed with big.
God has big plans for your life.
We're asking god to move in abig way.
I love the idea that god hastiny plans for our life, that,
um, we're asking him to show upin really, really small ways and
we actually can be doing thaton a daily basis.
I love that.
That thought, that thought, isso compelling.
Speaker 1 (01:02:24):
Well, brad, thank you , I have I.
This episode might've just beenfor me, but we will get it out
to everybody.
Speaker 2 (01:02:33):
I'm sorry, I hope it.
I hope it doesn't seem too likeacademic and too heady, cause
that's the like, that's thedanger sometimes, right, right.
Speaker 1 (01:02:43):
No, no, it was wonderful and obviously I'll
link you walking the text.
Thank you so much for your time.
Thank you for your wisdom andyour stories and sharing with us
and at Ordinary PeopleExtraordinary Things.
Your story is his glory.
Wow, this podcast with BradNelson was jam-packed.
(01:03:04):
I have listened to it alreadyabout four times during the
editing process and I'm going tohave to listen to it some more
to keep on getting these littlenuggets.
One thing that just reallyreally stands out to me was that
God has tiny plans for yourlife, and I really like that.
(01:03:27):
The other one that stood out tome is to be kind is to be
useful.
I can't wait to hear how thispodcast has impacted you and, as
always, thanks for listening,thanks for sharing, and we'll
see you back in two weeks.
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