January 21, 2022 • 14 mins
ORFA Technical Director, Terry Piche discusses the history of staying connected at work. Specifically, the evolution of recreation staff being a constant point of contact by phone or other electronic means during work or non-work hours. This constant point of being connected appears to replace strong training programs or assists in meeting the required “supervising” provision requirement of the Occupational Health and Safety Act. The introduction of Bill-27 is governments attempt to get our attention to finding work/life balance and their role in supporting workers when this balance can not be achieved. It is best that a facility manager understands the issues and tries to get ahead of this common workplace situation before a Ministry of Labour, Training and Development inspector becomes involved. ORFA Resource
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Terry Piche (00:10):
Hello, and welcome.
Thanks for joining me foranother ORFA podcast. This time,
we're going to be talking aboutBill 27, a new piece of
legislation that the Ontariogovernment is looking at
enacting in regards to the rightto disconnect from work. So
ultimately, this is going toreach into our industry. And
we're going to have to try andfigure out how we're going to
(00:33):
use this both in a positive wayand to understand the potential
unfunded liabilities that areassociated with not complying
with this piece of legislation.
So let's take a look at how wegot to where we're at.
So ultimately, when the faxmachine came in, we started to
(00:56):
talk about how the world wasgoing to change and the sharing
of information was going t obecome more simplified. We've
taken some quantum leaps sincethen and technology continues to
outpace us in regards to ourability to understand it. So as
an individual who grew up in thebusiness in the late 70s, I've
(01:18):
obviously seen a fair amount ofchange over the last little
while. This one I have watchedunfold over the last few years
as members have discussed withme in regards to some of the
challenges that they were facingas professionals and trying to
balance, work and life together.
(01:39):
So ultimately, when we firststarted out, there was the
telephone and we often talk inbasic arena refrigeration about
getting the tour of the plantroom and the senior staff member
giving us a tour and basicallysaying take this reading this
reading this reading, and ifyou've got any problems call me,
(01:59):
there was an automaticinsulation, that we didn't want
to call our supervisor unlesswe're really really had to we
didn't want to be seem to beincompetent or not able to do
our job. So we balanced that andmaybe we should have used the
opportunity more but thelifeline of having a supervisor
(02:23):
available by telephone wasalways a comfort. But we used it
like I said with a lot of with alot of respect. Today's
technology has usinstantaneously connected to
other staff members and that'sat every level. So I mean,
ultimately, texts are probablyflying through your phone as
(02:46):
you're listening to this as astaffer, either seeking
direction or looking forclarification, or possibly
having some form of barrier inregards to if they can come into
work or not. So there's thatgreat communication. Now one of
the things that I always sayinside of the classroom, when I
(03:10):
am in front of a group of newpractitioners, and if they
worked for me, they probablywouldn't like me and I probably
wouldn't care. The first thingthat I'm going to deal with is
their personal communicationdevices, because it is a hydra
meaning that it's got multipleheads on it, and it's got has
some advantages and it alsoobviously has got some issues
(03:34):
that are attached with it.
So myself as a manager trying tobalance that has got to be one
of the first things that I needto deal with. So I got to figure
out how I'm going to communicatewith staff while they're at work
and I also need to understandhow I'm going to communicate
with staff when they're not atwork and what kind of barriers
got to be put in place inregards to my decision to
(03:56):
communicate with staff andexactly how important that is.
Now, when you're in a unionenvironments it's a little bit
different and I suspect thatunions have spent some trying
time clarifying this. I mean,ultimately, anytime that I
contacted a staff member, theyhad a right to put in for an
overtime call out compensationas set out in the union
(04:18):
contract. So there was a bufferthat was there. What we've lost
is that connection becausethey're not coming in work if
I'm just quickly as flippingthem attacks and saying, Look at
where's the key for address roomnumber three, and they go, Oh,
geez, I forgot it's in the staffroom. I mean, that's one level
of communication. But if I'mgoing to be continually
(04:42):
communicating back and forthwith them in regards to day to
day operations, then I have tofigure out exactly what in fact
is happening. Now in thebeginning, t here was a feeling
of being wanted, meaning thatwhen a supervisor was
communicating with frontlinesStaff it gave them an a feeling
(05:04):
that that, in fact, they were animportant part of the operation.
And that they, in fact, werewere well connected. But, I
mean, ultimately, the realityis, is I got to figure out why,
why am I contacting a staffmember, our other staff members
not trained in the same in thesame responsibilities is this
(05:25):
person hoarding information. Sothis is one of the things that
I'm going to have the balancedas, as staff. So as Tom Marsh
long, organically, we've lostlimits in regards to the way
that we are communicating withstaff. And so what's happened
is, is that the lawmakers havedecided that they need to get
(05:46):
control of this and provide somegeneral guidance.
So at least that we start tohave the conversation and
hopefully come up with someparameters in regards to the way
that we're going to interactwith our staff when it's non
working hours. So what we haveto figure out is, are we
(06:06):
supervising long distance,meaning that because I have an
obligation under theOccupational Safety Act to make
sure that staff are properlysupervised, has technology
become that nanny, meaning thatwe're telling staff that they
can connect with us anytimethey'd like if they've got any
problems or issues. And so, bydefault, I am providing
(06:29):
supervision. And I understandthe gap that's trying to be
filled. But on the same token, asupervisor or managers not being
paid for the time that they areinvesting in ensuring that the
operation, in fact, is operatingas designed. So that's a balance
that ultimately has got to comeinto play. Now, the pandemic has
(06:53):
further blurred these lines,because many of us are working
from home. And we are trying toget things done long distance.
So we are regularlycommunicating with staff. And we
usually do that in real time,when we get direction from
senior management or changeshappens with the government,
(07:13):
then ultimately, we want tocommunicate with staff on how
things in fact, are going to bechanging over the next little
while. So we're trying tobalance how we're going to deal
with issues and then ultimatelycommunicate that information in
the most timely manner aspossible. Now, Bill 27, may be
(07:36):
new for the province of Ontario,but other countries have taken a
look at this long before we gotto it. France has always had a
very proactive work life balancephilosophy. If you take a look
at the way they handout theirholidays, and the way that they
take breaks during the day, mostemployees are allowed to go home
(08:00):
for lunch. For example, they'vealways put family first and work
second, North America hasn'tcompletely adopted that
philosophy. And so ultimately,we have a different attitude
when it comes to the way that weconduct business. Now, what we
(08:21):
need to appreciate is that theEmployment Standard act is still
at play here. So Bill 27, isgoing to be clarification to the
Employment Standards Act. So youneed to be very well in tune
with the responsibilities of theESA.
So I mean, this is somethingthat we talked about in length
(08:41):
in Legal Awareness II, theimportance of us not getting
into a situation where we areabusing staff outside the
Employment Standards Act. Now atakeaway from this so that if
you are a supervisor or amanager and you're playing
within the gray of the of theblack and white of the
(09:01):
employment standards, you needto understand that an employee
just merely needs to go to theMinistry of Labor, Training and
Development, even at the end oftheir employment and say, look
at this as the way the thingsare happening in this workplace
and the ministry will take alook at it and if you have been
coloring outside the linesthere, there's an financial
(09:22):
responsibility that's going toreach back a long way and you're
going to have to compensatethese individuals. So that'll be
an interesting way that the Bill27 will play out in regards to
our responsibility to compensatestaff that are in fact being
(09:43):
contacted outside regularworking hours.
Now, when it comes to managerialpositions under the Employment
Standards Act, there is a lotmore flexibility meaning that if
you are classified as a managerthen they're the employer has a
lot more latitude in regards tothe way that they can compensate
(10:05):
you for that level of aposition. What you need to make
sure is that we're not, againplaying between the gray between
the black and white, and tryingto define a position as a
managerial position when infact, it is a working position.
They're not, in fact managingand they're they're conducting
(10:25):
work on a regular basis. And Ican tell you that that again,
the Ministry has taken a look atthose situations and made
decisions that have had some farreaching financial impact for
some employers. So again, wecan't be creative in regards to
those misclassifications ofthese of these positions. So we
(10:48):
don't want to put our employersin what's referred to as
unfunded liability situation,meaning that if we don't color
inside the lines, and there isan accountability, then there's
money that needs to be paid out.
And often that money is not inthe budget. So that's referred
to as an unfunded liability.
Now, Bill 27, is beginning toroll out and we can expect it to
(11:11):
be challenged and thesechallenges will then set the
foundation blocks on howeverybody else will respond.
So it will, like most otherpieces of legislation work its
way through a review process andit'll become a lot more clear in
regards to the way that thingsare to unfold in the application
(11:34):
of this new piece oflegislation. So what we're more
concerned with as an industry isthe high turnover of staff and
if you follow the job postingsin the ORFA E-News, you can see
that every issue seems to havean abundance of employment
opportunities around theprovince. This is what I'm
(11:55):
referring to as a pandemicFallout, those that were close
to retirement age have takenretirement. And then ultimately,
there has been a whole varietyof new positions made available
that were created by thepandemic be a security positions
or housekeeping positions. Soindividuals that were in those
(12:15):
positions are moving into a morepermanent position, and it's
opening up opportunities aroundthe province than before. Now,
one of the interesting thingsthat we're tracking on
scientifically is that we'renoting there's about a 10 year
life expectancy in recreation,that doesn't mean that the
person is passing on but a boatat the 10 year mark, they're
(12:39):
evaluating if they want to worknights and weekends, and if they
haven't moved into a supervisoryposition that gives them a more
positive work life balance, thenthey are finding other
employment.
So there's a fairly highturnover inside our industry,
that is being prompted by aburnout. So being a Facility
(12:59):
Manager, I mean, ultimately, wehave to find that happy balance
in regards to the way that weare going to be conducting
business. And we got to makesure that we've got the right
levels of staff in place to beable to perform the work that
needs to be done. So if you'relooking for more information, we
(13:20):
just released A Guide toOntario's Proposed Bill 27,
working for workers act in 2021,which includes the right to
disconnect from work, if you arein a supervisory or managerial
position. We encourage you tobecome educated on this piece of
legislation that you are notcomplacent in regards to its
(13:43):
application. And you'llunderstand the importance to
find that work life balance. Ifin fact you have not
participated or taken the LegalAwareness II Managing in a
Recreation Environment, then I'mgoing to encourage you to take a
look at that one. We haverevamped it. It's available
online. It's a fairlycomprehensive overview of all
(14:04):
the other pieces of legislationbeyond the core ones that you
may be responsible for. And it'sgoing to be available online in
January of 2022. And as thepandemic subsides, we'll be
going back to in class training.
So if that's still the way thatyou would like to get your
professional development then isgoing to be available at certain
(14:26):
times of the year. So stay tunedfor that. So thanks for
listening. Hopefully this hasprovided you with some form of
ongoing professionaldevelopment. Stay safe out
there.
Hello, and welcome.
Thanks for joining me foranother ORFA podcast. This time,
we're going to be talking aboutBill 27, a new piece of
legislation that the Ontariogovernment is looking at
enacting in regards to the rightto disconnect from work. So
ultimately, this is going toreach into our industry. And
we're going to have to try andfigure out how we're going to
(00:33):
use this both in a positive wayand to understand the potential
unfunded liabilities that areassociated with not complying
with this piece of legislation.
So let's take a look at how wegot to where we're at.
So ultimately, when the faxmachine came in, we started to
(00:56):
talk about how the world wasgoing to change and the sharing
of information was going t obecome more simplified. We've
taken some quantum leaps sincethen and technology continues to
outpace us in regards to ourability to understand it. So as
an individual who grew up in thebusiness in the late 70s, I've
(01:18):
obviously seen a fair amount ofchange over the last little
while. This one I have watchedunfold over the last few years
as members have discussed withme in regards to some of the
challenges that they were facingas professionals and trying to
balance, work and life together.
(01:39):
So ultimately, when we firststarted out, there was the
telephone and we often talk inbasic arena refrigeration about
getting the tour of the plantroom and the senior staff member
giving us a tour and basicallysaying take this reading this
reading this reading, and ifyou've got any problems call me,
(01:59):
there was an automaticinsulation, that we didn't want
to call our supervisor unlesswe're really really had to we
didn't want to be seem to beincompetent or not able to do
our job. So we balanced that andmaybe we should have used the
opportunity more but thelifeline of having a supervisor
(02:23):
available by telephone wasalways a comfort. But we used it
like I said with a lot of with alot of respect. Today's
technology has usinstantaneously connected to
other staff members and that'sat every level. So I mean,
ultimately, texts are probablyflying through your phone as
(02:46):
you're listening to this as astaffer, either seeking
direction or looking forclarification, or possibly
having some form of barrier inregards to if they can come into
work or not. So there's thatgreat communication. Now one of
the things that I always sayinside of the classroom, when I
(03:10):
am in front of a group of newpractitioners, and if they
worked for me, they probablywouldn't like me and I probably
wouldn't care. The first thingthat I'm going to deal with is
their personal communicationdevices, because it is a hydra
meaning that it's got multipleheads on it, and it's got has
some advantages and it alsoobviously has got some issues
(03:34):
that are attached with it.
So myself as a manager trying tobalance that has got to be one
of the first things that I needto deal with. So I got to figure
out how I'm going to communicatewith staff while they're at work
and I also need to understandhow I'm going to communicate
with staff when they're not atwork and what kind of barriers
got to be put in place inregards to my decision to
(03:56):
communicate with staff andexactly how important that is.
Now, when you're in a unionenvironments it's a little bit
different and I suspect thatunions have spent some trying
time clarifying this. I mean,ultimately, anytime that I
contacted a staff member, theyhad a right to put in for an
overtime call out compensationas set out in the union
(04:18):
contract. So there was a bufferthat was there. What we've lost
is that connection becausethey're not coming in work if
I'm just quickly as flippingthem attacks and saying, Look at
where's the key for address roomnumber three, and they go, Oh,
geez, I forgot it's in the staffroom. I mean, that's one level
of communication. But if I'mgoing to be continually
(04:42):
communicating back and forthwith them in regards to day to
day operations, then I have tofigure out exactly what in fact
is happening. Now in thebeginning, t here was a feeling
of being wanted, meaning thatwhen a supervisor was
communicating with frontlinesStaff it gave them an a feeling
(05:04):
that that, in fact, they were animportant part of the operation.
And that they, in fact, werewere well connected. But, I
mean, ultimately, the realityis, is I got to figure out why,
why am I contacting a staffmember, our other staff members
not trained in the same in thesame responsibilities is this
(05:25):
person hoarding information. Sothis is one of the things that
I'm going to have the balancedas, as staff. So as Tom Marsh
long, organically, we've lostlimits in regards to the way
that we are communicating withstaff. And so what's happened
is, is that the lawmakers havedecided that they need to get
(05:46):
control of this and provide somegeneral guidance.
So at least that we start tohave the conversation and
hopefully come up with someparameters in regards to the way
that we're going to interactwith our staff when it's non
working hours. So what we haveto figure out is, are we
(06:06):
supervising long distance,meaning that because I have an
obligation under theOccupational Safety Act to make
sure that staff are properlysupervised, has technology
become that nanny, meaning thatwe're telling staff that they
can connect with us anytimethey'd like if they've got any
problems or issues. And so, bydefault, I am providing
(06:29):
supervision. And I understandthe gap that's trying to be
filled. But on the same token, asupervisor or managers not being
paid for the time that they areinvesting in ensuring that the
operation, in fact, is operatingas designed. So that's a balance
that ultimately has got to comeinto play. Now, the pandemic has
(06:53):
further blurred these lines,because many of us are working
from home. And we are trying toget things done long distance.
So we are regularlycommunicating with staff. And we
usually do that in real time,when we get direction from
senior management or changeshappens with the government,
(07:13):
then ultimately, we want tocommunicate with staff on how
things in fact, are going to bechanging over the next little
while. So we're trying tobalance how we're going to deal
with issues and then ultimatelycommunicate that information in
the most timely manner aspossible. Now, Bill 27, may be
(07:36):
new for the province of Ontario,but other countries have taken a
look at this long before we gotto it. France has always had a
very proactive work life balancephilosophy. If you take a look
at the way they handout theirholidays, and the way that they
take breaks during the day, mostemployees are allowed to go home
(08:00):
for lunch. For example, they'vealways put family first and work
second, North America hasn'tcompletely adopted that
philosophy. And so ultimately,we have a different attitude
when it comes to the way that weconduct business. Now, what we
(08:21):
need to appreciate is that theEmployment Standard act is still
at play here. So Bill 27, isgoing to be clarification to the
Employment Standards Act. So youneed to be very well in tune
with the responsibilities of theESA.
So I mean, this is somethingthat we talked about in length
(08:41):
in Legal Awareness II, theimportance of us not getting
into a situation where we areabusing staff outside the
Employment Standards Act. Now atakeaway from this so that if
you are a supervisor or amanager and you're playing
within the gray of the of theblack and white of the
(09:01):
employment standards, you needto understand that an employee
just merely needs to go to theMinistry of Labor, Training and
Development, even at the end oftheir employment and say, look
at this as the way the thingsare happening in this workplace
and the ministry will take alook at it and if you have been
coloring outside the linesthere, there's an financial
(09:22):
responsibility that's going toreach back a long way and you're
going to have to compensatethese individuals. So that'll be
an interesting way that the Bill27 will play out in regards to
our responsibility to compensatestaff that are in fact being
(09:43):
contacted outside regularworking hours.
Now, when it comes to managerialpositions under the Employment
Standards Act, there is a lotmore flexibility meaning that if
you are classified as a managerthen they're the employer has a
lot more latitude in regards tothe way that they can compensate
(10:05):
you for that level of aposition. What you need to make
sure is that we're not, againplaying between the gray between
the black and white, and tryingto define a position as a
managerial position when infact, it is a working position.
They're not, in fact managingand they're they're conducting
(10:25):
work on a regular basis. And Ican tell you that that again,
the Ministry has taken a look atthose situations and made
decisions that have had some farreaching financial impact for
some employers. So again, wecan't be creative in regards to
those misclassifications ofthese of these positions. So we
(10:48):
don't want to put our employersin what's referred to as
unfunded liability situation,meaning that if we don't color
inside the lines, and there isan accountability, then there's
money that needs to be paid out.
And often that money is not inthe budget. So that's referred
to as an unfunded liability.
Now, Bill 27, is beginning toroll out and we can expect it to
(11:11):
be challenged and thesechallenges will then set the
foundation blocks on howeverybody else will respond.
So it will, like most otherpieces of legislation work its
way through a review process andit'll become a lot more clear in
regards to the way that thingsare to unfold in the application
(11:34):
of this new piece oflegislation. So what we're more
concerned with as an industry isthe high turnover of staff and
if you follow the job postingsin the ORFA E-News, you can see
that every issue seems to havean abundance of employment
opportunities around theprovince. This is what I'm
(11:55):
referring to as a pandemicFallout, those that were close
to retirement age have takenretirement. And then ultimately,
there has been a whole varietyof new positions made available
that were created by thepandemic be a security positions
or housekeeping positions. Soindividuals that were in those
(12:15):
positions are moving into a morepermanent position, and it's
opening up opportunities aroundthe province than before. Now,
one of the interesting thingsthat we're tracking on
scientifically is that we'renoting there's about a 10 year
life expectancy in recreation,that doesn't mean that the
person is passing on but a boatat the 10 year mark, they're
(12:39):
evaluating if they want to worknights and weekends, and if they
haven't moved into a supervisoryposition that gives them a more
positive work life balance, thenthey are finding other
employment.
So there's a fairly highturnover inside our industry,
that is being prompted by aburnout. So being a Facility
(12:59):
Manager, I mean, ultimately, wehave to find that happy balance
in regards to the way that weare going to be conducting
business. And we got to makesure that we've got the right
levels of staff in place to beable to perform the work that
needs to be done. So if you'relooking for more information, we
(13:20):
just released A Guide toOntario's Proposed Bill 27,
working for workers act in 2021,which includes the right to
disconnect from work, if you arein a supervisory or managerial
position. We encourage you tobecome educated on this piece of
legislation that you are notcomplacent in regards to its
(13:43):
application. And you'llunderstand the importance to
find that work life balance. Ifin fact you have not
participated or taken the LegalAwareness II Managing in a
Recreation Environment, then I'mgoing to encourage you to take a
look at that one. We haverevamped it. It's available
online. It's a fairlycomprehensive overview of all
(14:04):
the other pieces of legislationbeyond the core ones that you
may be responsible for. And it'sgoing to be available online in
January of 2022. And as thepandemic subsides, we'll be
going back to in class training.
So if that's still the way thatyou would like to get your
professional development then isgoing to be available at certain
(14:26):
times of the year. So stay tunedfor that. So thanks for
listening. Hopefully this hasprovided you with some form of
ongoing professionaldevelopment. Stay safe out
there.
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