March 1, 2022 • 59 mins
Dan Sacks made the leap from underwriter at Freddie Mac to the top originator at Greystone, within a few short years. During this episode, we run the gamut from selling (and tasting) chocolates to an illustrious sales career and the transition to leadership.
1:30 - 7:00 Early Sales Experience, Lessons as a Kid
7:00 - 10:00 Career Development
10:00 - 19:00 Creating a Skill Set, Adding Value
19:00 - 27:00 Adapting to New and Changing Markets
27:00 - 35:00 Building Confidence as a Salesperson
35:00 - 45:00 Discover and Strengthen Unique Abilities
45:00 - 51:00 Lessons in Management
51:00 - 58:00 How to be a Good Leader
lenders, market, people, loan, client, equity, selling, deals, screen protectors, year, calls, rates, business, borrower, easy, long, sales, chase, interest rates, debt
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Mordecai Rosenberg (00:15):
Welcome back to the Origination podcast where
we interview the top originatorsand salespeople in the
multifamily industry to try tounderstand what separates the
top performers from the rest ofthe pack. On this episode, I'll
be speaking with Dan Sacks. Dancame to Greystone with an
underwriting background havingworked at Freddie Mac and Wells
(00:38):
Fargo. However, it was veryclear from day one that Dan had
the heart of an originator. Now,there are many underwriters who
think they might want to makethe transition to origination.
And maybe some even do make thetransition. But I have not seen
very many who have achieved thatoutsize success that Dan has.
(01:02):
Within just a couple of years.
He was Greystone's top agencyoriginator, and has brought in
about seven and a half billiondollars of deals in the last
five years. How do you do it?
And how do you make the leap?
Well, let's find out and speakwith Dan.
(01:23):
We have the legendary Dan Sacks.
Dan, welcome to the Originationpodcast. It's great to have you.
Dan Sacks (01:30):
Thanks for having me, Mordy. It's good to be here.
Mordecai Rosenberg (01:33):
So, Dan, you've had a very interesting
path in multifamily finance andI want to talk about your path
from underwriting to originationin a little bit. But first, I
was curious, is there anyearlier sales experience that
comes to mind? What's the firstthing that you remember selling?
(01:56):
It could be selling chocolatesin school, or in high school, or
job, like anything else come tomind as far as earlier sales
experience?
Dan Sacks (02:06):
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I can remember selling
lemonade as a kid. Going to thepark and making a lemonade stand
and trying to court parkgoers topay 50 cents for some lemonade.
I remember some of the drives atelementary school where you go
(02:29):
door to door selling chocolates.
And they would keep tabs on howmany you know what kind of
numbers everybody made inchocolate sales. Unlike some, my
parents refused to sell anychocolates on my behalf. I had
to go door to door and actually,I enjoyed it. I found that fun.
(02:50):
Probably even younger than that,I can recall creating a store in
my house of pots and pans, andputting prices on them, and
inviting my parents to come buyback their home furnishings;
using my brother as my generalmanager.
Mordecai Rosenberg (03:15):
That's funny. I threatened to do that
with my kids the opposite way.
Where I say that if they leave asweatshirt on the couch in the
living room, I'm gonna keep itand make them buy it back from
me. Yeah, they want it back. Soa little different idea. The
chocolate sales, you know, Iremember those chocolate drives.
And I'll tell you, I alsoremember going door to door, I
(03:36):
must have been in third grade orso. I remember just hating it
and being terrified, absolutelyterrified to like knock on
doors. And the truth is thatlike initially when I got into
sales and started cold calling,I was also terrified. Coaching
and practice until I gotcomfortable with that. It's
interesting to hear you say thatyou liked it. What did you like
(03:58):
about that? Do you remember,like what your approach was when
you knocked on the door?
Dan Sacks (04:08):
It's a great analogy.
You know, today and through anycareer, I think sales is one of
the most marketable andimportant skills to to have. I
have always felt that the bestway to sell somebody something
is to be passionate and haveconviction that you are offering
(04:32):
them something of value. Andthat always brought me comfort,
to meet strangers, or to talk topeople I've never talked to. Not
much has changed over life;doing that door to door to raise
(04:53):
money for the school, ParentTeachers Association. Selling
chocolates to selling mortgages.
Mordecai Rosenberg (05:07):
I guess the value you felt you're providing
is that you're doing a servicefor the school. Right. And so it
was inherently positive activitythat you were doing, and maybe
the chocolates were pretty goodalso.
Dan Sacks (05:19):
Yeah, of course, I tried a chocolate bar and put $1
in there, and knew my productand knew that it was for good
cause. And then I turned it intoa game. That's another important
kind of element that I think isimportant to good salesman is
being competitive and pushingyourself to exceed your own
(05:40):
expectations. And being kind ofcommitted to wanting to win. For
the sake of proving it toyourself.
Mordecai Rosenberg (05:53):
How did that game work? What was the game
that you played back then withthe chocolate?
Dan Sacks (05:59):
Well, at first, I would go to a door and try to
make a sale. If that the firstsale didn't lead to a closed
sale, it probably took me aquarter around the neighborhood
until I refined my pitch. To beeffective at every excuse as to
(06:23):
why somebody was not interestedin purchasing the chocolate: I
have my own kids selling theirown chocolate, we just bought a
lot of chocolate from somebodyelse, we don't eat chocolate. So
there are multiple ways toimprove to be prepared for that.
(06:44):
I would then tally what my mysales were, and try to improve
on those. And I had fun with it.
It was more of an experiencethat I found engaging as a
child, and perhaps a lot ofthose, that same process, is
kind of applicable to every typeof sales initiative or process.
Mordecai Rosenberg (07:14):
That's right. So we'll dig into that in
just a little bit. So your pathagain, you did not go straight
into origination, when you gotinto multifamily, right? And you
came up through an underwritingchannel, right? There's lots of
(07:40):
people who come up to anunderwriting channel and say,
oh, I want to be an originator.
They'd like to make some moremoney, and they want to make
that leap. Now, a very smallpercentage of those people
actually even try, right,because it's a hard leap to
make. You're going from a salaryto commission based job like
(08:03):
that's a tough leap. But out ofthose people that do make the
leap, very few of them actuallysucceed in in origination. You
went from not only did you makethe leap, but became, within
just a couple of years, youbecame a top agency producer in
the company. I have a lot ofquestions. But let's say to
(08:27):
start out, you know, when yougraduate college, and did you go
to Freddie Mac, right fromcollege?
Dan Sacks (08:35):
Correct. I started at Freddie Mac, upon graduating
from the University of Maryland,in 2009.
Mordecai Rosenberg (08:45):
And what was the thought process with that?
How did you, you know, what madeyou think about Freddie Mac?
That's also unconventional to goto, well not, the public sector;
but it's a big agency. I didn'thave a lot of classmates who
went to Fannie Mae or FreddieMac. So how did you think about
that?
Dan Sacks (09:04):
So fortunately, they posted a listing for new college
hires on the Robert H. SmithSchool of Business is a portal,
and it caught my eye. Because itwas it was local, and it was a
fortune 500 company thatspecialized in real estate. I
wish I had much moreintelligence at that point to
(09:27):
understand the the macroperspective of their operations,
but I was just a young hungrycollege kid that needed a job
out of school and, and applied.
Mordecai Rosenberg (09:42):
Yeah, so you didn't think as far as being in
real estate. Did you know thatyou wanted to be in real estate
or just was just sounded like aninteresting opportunity?
Dan Sacks (09:53):
I did plan to be in real estate. I I've always
thought that real estate can'tbecome obsolete. It can't go
away, it's always going to behere and carry value. And it was
something tangible that I couldsee and touch and and easily
understand. And so, I tried totackle it from: how do I enter
(10:19):
the real estate industry? Whatare the skills I would need to
have to succeed?
Mordecai Rosenberg (10:27):
What were those skills that you thought
you would need to have?
Dan Sacks (10:30):
Well, when I started at Freddie Mac, I tried to
identify what is it that I needto know to advance. I dedicated
a large percent of time tomeeting with with coworkers, and
colleagues, and those moreexperienced than me, to ask
(10:51):
those those questions. I wastold by a friend Aaron Dunn, who
was working on thesecuritization side of Freddie
Mac's business, that themortgage bankers are those that
are creating the transaction,and then selling them to Freddie
(11:13):
Mac. The perspective of howFreddie Mac views transactions,
and prices transactions, andexecutes in the secondary
mortgage market was very helpfulinformation to obtain. And the
people at Freddie Mac reallycarry an important industry
(11:38):
function in the execution of themission of Freddie Mac and
Fannie Mac, for that matter.
Yeah, which, is the stabilityand liquidity to to the mortgage
market. Diagnosing what skillsyou need to have. And then
identifying what role that thosewould correlate to, and you
(12:04):
should look to pursue, I thinkis a strong foundation prior to
making a move. I tried to gatherthat study, as soon as I joined
the workforce out of school.
Mordecai Rosenberg (12:23):
I always thought it was amazing that when
you're applying for a job out ofschool, right, you don't really
know what the difference is. Youknow, if I applied to an
investment bank, I don't knowwhat the difference is between
sales and trading, and clientcoverage, or Treasury
Department. You just want to geta job, right. But then you get
(12:46):
that first job, and all of asudden, now you're on a track.
Right? And now 20 years later,that's your career. So as far as
getting that first job, surethere's a bit of of just good
fortune in that, but as far asleveraging that to the full
extent possible, you wereintentional about it. Wasn't
(13:07):
just like, Oh, I'm just gonna dowhatever work they they give me.
Sure, you have the work to do,but you also want to know that
that simple question of what doI need to know in order to
advance? Right? I mean, justimagine the difference if first
secondary analysts, right, ifthey came in and asked that
question. What do I need to knowto advance? To me, it sounds so
(13:30):
obvious, but I really don'tthink a lot of people ask that
simple question.
Dan Sacks (13:38):
I felt that that was critical to not taking too much
risk; making moves that were notcohesive with growth or that
trying to reduce the probabilityof failure. To establish the set
of skills that were marketableand create a floor on my
(14:02):
earnings as a contributor, as ateam member. By learning skills,
or focusing on developing thoseskills, needed to obtain the
proficiency in those areas. So Iknew I would always have a job
(14:27):
and be important to my employer.
Mordecai Rosenberg (14:33):
It's also interesting, starting with one
of the agencies; let's say ifyou start as an analyst with a
lender. So you're gonna start,you're gonna learn how to size
deals, and you're trying tofigure out, alright, what is
going to be a fit for FannieMae, or Freddie Mac, or FHA, or
(14:54):
our bridge program. And then,out of the deals you size, if
one out of 10 or one out of 20makes it to application, then
you're you're submitting it andyou have some involvement to see
what happens with that. But ifyou're starting on the agency
side, every deal, every singledeal that you're looking at from
(15:17):
day one, you're the decisionmaker, right? And so if you want
to know, if you want to learnhow the agencies think about a
deal, you know, I wonder aboutjust how accelerated your
education is starting at anagency compared to starting at a
lender.
Dan Sacks (15:38):
It was certainly beneficial to understand how
Freddie Mac and ultimately, youknow, Fannie Mae view
transactions, view credit risk,price deals, fulfill their
mission. And the best way that Igot up to speed on that was
twofold. One was by readingtheir guides, backwards and
(16:00):
forwards, and going to thesource data to become fluent in
all of those parameters. Ialways saw it out in the
information that was published,to study and understand, and
(16:22):
then apply to real lifescenarios. I think the first
time I ever sized the deal; Ileft Freddie Mac after two and a
half years, because I I believethat was I felt at that time,
Freddie Mac was transitioning totheir K Series model. But my
(16:46):
division was not yet puttingtogether the underwriting
themselves. So it was adifferent model where the lender
was was doing a lot of that. AndI felt like I needed to
understand fully how to put thattogether. I accepted a job Wells
Fargo Multifamily Capital. And Iwas on the production screening
(17:12):
side, putting together deals,and so I spent the time to read
the Fannie Mae and Freddie Macguides. Then I tried to apply
that to real life scenarios, andyou know, pulled up one Excel
workbook of a completed dealthat was similar to the one that
I was working on. And taughtmyself the formulas in the
(17:36):
completed workbook to input theinformation and to understand
kind of where the transactionthat I was working on was
shaking out. Then reference theguide, and continued to just
build on that. And through thenrepetition. And asking some
(18:00):
questions when you don't knowthe answer, or you think it
could be either A or B. Youstart to build on your knowledge
base, which, over time withstrong work ethic gives you an
exponential level of growth inyour skill set.
Mordecai Rosenberg (18:25):
It's funny, I remember doing the same thing
with the sizing sheet. When Istarted as an analyst doing FHA.
There was one tab that was yourfinal loan amount. That's it.
Okay. That says minimum ofABCDE. So okay, well then, what
ABCD and E? Well, one is, youknow, 80% loan to value. All
(18:48):
right, what's loan to value?
Dan Sacks (18:50):
Right? We start with ABCs. No one is going to sit
down and tell you each thing.
But Google is a tremendousresource in today's day and age.
Yep. Where you can Google justabout anything and read up on
it, but you have to have thatcompetitiveness or that drive or
be a self starter, and challengeyourself to find the answers the
best you can. To kind of helpyourself, you can ask people for
(19:17):
help, but nobody is going togive you the script.
Mordecai Rosenberg (19:28):
Did you work with Alan Wiener at all at
Wealth?
Dan Sacks (19:31):
So Alan Wiener was the group head, and I believe
still is, I worked on a numberof his prolific deals in in
Manhattan. At that point in timewere well into the hundreds of
millions. And that was also verygood experience to cut your
(19:54):
teeth on. But I can say that Ididn't treat any differently,
the $150 million deal I wasworking on that was Alan wieners
client, or the $6 million dealthat was someone else's client.
I was focused on understandinghow do I get an edge and a
(20:15):
competitive advantage todelivering enhanced terms on
whichever transaction that I wasworking on.
Mordecai Rosenberg (20:25):
So I know that one of the things that you
got very good at is knowingwhere you could push the
agencies. When you came toGreystone, that was something
that was a revelation to me,when I started working with you
is that we thought that you havethis pricing grid, and there's
(20:49):
debt service coverage, and LTV,and that's what you have. And
you kind of opened my eyes tothis idea that like, oh, no,
that's your starting point. Butwe're gonna push for a 40 basis
point pricing waiver here. And Iknow that I'm confident that I
can get it. So where in terms ofknowing that there's that
(21:11):
ability to bend? Did you learnthat from working at Freddie?
Well, it's like, you can readthe books, but when did you
realize that you can also bendthe books, as well, so to speak.
Dan Sacks (21:25):
So a lot of that came from reading the guide. As far
as credit underwriting goes, andafter I was well versed in the
agency domain, I did the samewith HUD, I continue to read the
guide. Because the guide tellsyou what you can do what you
can't do. And then there'swhat's not said in the guide,
(21:52):
should all be said andincorporated in your
presentation of the transaction,with support, and mitigating
elements to any levels of riskto the transaction. That you're
sending to the agencies, or toanybody that you're requesting a
(22:12):
quote from, for that matter. AndI think that's what puts the
deal in the best light to getthe best terms is when that's
well thought through, wellresearched, and, you know, what
parameters you're otherwiseconstrained within. As well as
which you're not.
Mordecai Rosenberg (22:34):
Mm hmm.
Right. And then just doingtransactions and seeing--
Dan Sacks (22:39):
And then repetition.
It took it took a long time, andI still see some problems I've
never encountered before. But byand large at this point, I have
seen a lot of the regularissues, which I've tried to
incorporate in our processes tomitigate, and be in front, of so
(23:00):
that they don't occur. But I'vealso seen those that are outside
of my control, and now haveexperience in dealing with those
to be able to advise. With somethings, just require practice
and tenure, and consistency, andexperience. There's no shortcut
(23:26):
on that front.
Mordecai Rosenberg (23:32):
That makes sense. So I remember when you
started at Greystone, or maybeit wasn't right away, but but
fairly soon after you startedit. So we actually even though
your background was on theagency side, you know, we hired
you onto the FHA team. Yet, andI don't know, probably a lot of
(23:52):
lenders are set up this way; butGreystone was set up, still is
to a large extent, with an FHAdivision, and salespeople that
were largely focused on FHA. Andyou had an agency division and
the salespeople that werelargely focused on Fannie and
Freddie. Then the CMBS division,we're largely focused on CMBS,
(24:17):
etc. Now, I grew up in FHA andour clients would have agency
needs. We would submit termsheets to them, based on, you
know, the sizing guidelines thatwe had, and we just were not
winning deals. Someone else,another agency lender, would
(24:39):
come in and was able to providemore money, at a lower rate, and
we just looked pretty silly. Sowhat we realized is that we
really needed training. Weneeded support because we just
didn't know how to bidaggressively. All right. So you
(25:01):
came in and at the beginningdidn't go right into
origination. But we had youworking hand in hand with all
the FHA originators who want toget agency deals done. So can
you describe that experience?
What was that like? And do youthink it was unique as a role in
the industry?
Dan Sacks (25:24):
Yeah, I think that that was that was one of the
more creative things thatGreystone did at the time to
bring somebody with agencyexperience. And place them under
the FHA division, which nobodyelse was doing. Each product had
(25:47):
its own siloed kind of group incompanies. That's how it was at
Wells Fargo. And that's myunderstanding how it still is
today. But the the objective wasto be able to provide clients
with the entire set of options,and do so in a way that was
(26:17):
industry leading with expertisewithin the team as it pertains
to each execution. And by way ofthat, I learned a tremendous
amount amount about FHA. And Ihope my my colleagues in the FHA
(26:38):
group learned a lot aboutagency. But we were able to
serve the client in such anadvanced way, in faster response
times. Because we were placedtogether in working on the deal
and servicing the client. I feltthat many people learned and
(27:05):
they've worked really well forfor the customer. And I credit
Greystone and yourself when youwere running that division for
that foresight, and creativity,and being focused on the
customer, and bringing aboutthat kind of level of competence
within your group. I thinkGreystone really benefited from
(27:30):
seeing that model work and beingable to deploy that in other
areas across the firm.
Mordecai Rosenberg (27:38):
Yeah, thank you for saying that. But it's a
simple thing. When you'rethinking about how to get
business done, you have tounderstand that your
salespeople, you have to meetpeople where they are. There is
this idea that you could trainFHA guys to just be able to do
agency. And my experience isthat salespeople, at least in
(28:02):
our industry, I don't know ifthis is true in all industries,
but for some reason in ourindustry, like multifamily
finance, it seems likesalespeople learn a particular
product, and they get verycomfortable with that product.
And it's very difficult for themto start selling something else
that they have. They don't havethe confidence in it, you know,
(28:24):
so you can try to make thatdifferent. It makes our
salespeople learn how to sellsomething else, right? Or you
can meet them where they are,and just say, look, let's find
it, let's give you a resource togive you the confidence. Now,
one of the things that I thinkyou also gained and they gained,
(28:45):
was that they trusted you tojust be right up in front of the
client. Probably a lot of thosedeals, they're just like luck.
"Dan, just, you know, go runwith it". Maybe copy me on
emails, but I want you handlingthis. So now you were able to, I
(29:05):
guess cut your teeth, but reallyget a lot of transactional
experience working with ownersworking with brokers. Building
up that confidence on that. Doyou agree?
Dan Sacks (29:20):
I do and you know, I have no qualms of ever playing
Robin to anyone's Batman. It isnot about what I'm doing. It's
about what we're doing and howwe're working together. And and
(29:40):
I always thought that all thatpreparation, which was about six
years, of the standard personworks nine to five, which I
don't. I never understood howsomebody can work nine to five
and actually get ahead, butperhaps that's a separate
conversation. So I, when I wasworking out, I committed my
(30:03):
early years of life to this, tobeing an expert at this, and
hoping that I would find anopportunity to be able to deploy
that edge. That's kind of thesaying, when preparation meets
opportunity, you can get to areally incredible place. That
(30:26):
kind of just happened. But Ithink it happened because I was
prepared. And I sought anopportunity to kind of deploy
that skill set, and while it wasa multi year kind of strategy, I
(30:47):
felt like I built a strongfoundation in obtaining
specialized skills; that I wasalways fine being the
complimentary adder to getexperience on transactions and
see real life examples of howthis works. Then I built the
(31:13):
confidence because I was solvingthe problems. At that point,
once you're there, you'refeeling confident in going out
and developing your own clientroster.
Mordecai Rosenberg (31:31):
Yet, you mentioned before, when you were
talking about selling thechocolate, that you felt like
you needed to have convictionthat you're providing something
of value, demonstrated value tothe client. That is difficult.
(31:52):
It's something that I alwaysfelt challenged with, you know,
selling agency business becauseit's designed to be kind of a
commodity. The agencies wantedto be mostly a commodity.
Dan Sacks (32:04):
I think that the agencies want the perception
that all lenders are equal tothem. And they are all equal to
them. But I think the market maythink that agency financing is a
commodity. But I think I'm anexample to demonstrate outsized
results. As I'm not onlycompeting on customer service,
(32:27):
I'm looking to win on terms. SoI think that's a good point.
Mordecai Rosenberg (32:34):
So and I agree with that. And that was
something that I thoughtfirsthand. You know, I remember,
there was a client that you andI worked on together, early on,
where we had been losing agencybusiness, to other lenders. And
you started quoting theirbusiness and you're coming in
(32:55):
above, right? More loanproceeds, you know, better rate.
And the clients like, "Well howare you guys gonna achieve
this?" I guess other lendersaren't saying that. You had the
confidence to say, "No, we'regoing to do it." And we did. So
to have the confidence to say,look, I can get you max dollars,
(33:19):
I can get you absolute maxdollars on this deal. Right?
That's something that in theend, those Max dollars will be
higher than the max dollars youwould get from another lender.
That is something that is verycompelling, right. And that's
only comes from knowing thosehaving the experience of being
(33:41):
inside the deals, doing thelegwork to research the guide. I
think that's unique for asalesperson to want to delve so
deeply into details.
Dan Sacks (33:53):
Yeah, I think so. I don't think innately I'm a
natural born salesman. I thinkthat certain salespeople are
very effective at cultivatingrelationships, and presenting,
and being persuasive andpolished at making a sale. I
(34:19):
never found so much satisfactionin what what I felt was perhaps
manipulating somebody to make apurchase in and of itself. And
therefore, I always felt thatthere's no way that a client
(34:40):
would not appreciate somebodyproviding a sophisticated
opinion and a value set thatthat was different based on my
opinion This is what I would doif I were them. And I have
(35:04):
dedicated a tremendous amount oftime to really study my domain,
my sector. Yeah, I just foundthat the sale then is more
natural, it was more natural tome. And I think I've seen some
very talented salesman, evenwithin the Greystone
(35:26):
organization and those at otherfirms. It's interesting to me,
the dynamic and the makeup ofeach of those that are really
successful, still is quitedifferent one to another.
Mordecai Rosenberg (35:43):
Yeah, I would even go further to say
that, you know, I've had about25 people or so on the podcast
and there's not a single onethat's had the same strategy as
another, as the same way ofdoing business. They all come at
it with our own their ownflavor, you know, of how they
approach it.
Dan Sacks (36:04):
One's not necessarily better than the other there. I
think it's important to developyour flavor.
Mordecai Rosenberg (36:11):
And your flavor is based on your own
natural born capabilities. Youknow, if you're someone who's
not a big picture guy, who's notinto the details, they're not
going to be able to dig in andknow all the nuances of the
(36:35):
guide. Right? And so fine, youhave to take take your own
approach. Maybe you're good atjust big picture transaction,
structuring, maybe you're goodat, I don't know, making
connections and providing valuethat way. Right. But your flavor
of sales has to be based on whatyou are already good at.
Dan Sacks (36:55):
I couldn't agree with you more. Probably the most
impactful book that I ever haveread, and it was the shortest,
is Tom Rath Strength Finders.
The concept of focus on theskills or the elements that
(37:18):
you're already good at. Andforego trying to be good at
everything. Understand who youare, and what your skill set is
that motivates you, that you arealready better than average at
and focus on being excellent atthose. And that was that was
(37:44):
very different than what I'vebeen taught and what I expected
out of myself, as an analyst,right, coming, you know, in my
mid 20s, wanting to impresseverybody that I did work with,
right? And coming to therealization that I just wasn't
(38:05):
good at everything.
Mordecai Rosenberg (38:11):
It's liquid, that's what we're taught in
school. When you go to parentteacher conferences for your
kids. What do they talk to youabout? Well, you know, they're
struggling in this. It's aboutvery specific things. They're
not saying, you know, he has anexcellent way of organizing
teams on the playground. He justreally knows everyone's
(38:33):
strengths. You know, he knowshow to put together a great
football team on on theplayground.
Dan Sacks (38:37):
That kind of color from a teacher in elementary
school would be quite beneficialto a parent. But yeah, that's
not how we get it.
Mordecai Rosenberg (38:46):
So we go through school and all we get
attention for is what were ourweaknesses. And we're told to
work on our weaknesses. DanSullivan, my executive coach,
you know, he says that, ifyou're just working on your
weaknesses, when you die, you'lljust have a bunch of strong
weaknesses. Right. But if youwork on your strengths, that you
(39:09):
could be the best in the world.
You know, how is MichaelJordan's serve in tennis?
Dan Sacks (39:20):
He might care a lot of his competitive spirit, but
beyond that...
Mordecai Rosenberg (39:25):
Who cares?
Right. Not a very well roundedathlete. I mean, he's more well
rounded than most but...
Dan Sacks (39:33):
It's true. And we are taught the opposite. We are
taught that you need to developthis well rounded skill set and
focus on your weaknesses. And Iembraced my natural strengths
and my natural weaknesses. And Ithink one of the best functions
(39:57):
or most important functions inbuilding a team, is not to build
a team of everyone just likeyou. It's to find those that are
good at certain things andbetter at other things. And
complement one another. Right?
But I'm, I'm such a big believerin having passion for what
(40:20):
you're doing. And I think that'ssuper hard also to have in
improving weaknesses. Right. AndI think that's the concept in
that equation is that the amountof work and gravity against you
taking a weakness and turning itinto an absolute strength. It's
probably greater than takingsomething that you are
(40:45):
passionate and enjoy doing. Soyou're not fighting that element
of gravity.
Mordecai Rosenberg (40:51):
I don't know if I've talked about it on the
podcast, and maybe I'll get intoit another episode; but I
believe that that everyone hasan unique ability. And that's
also a Dan Sullivan concept fromStrategic Coach. That's
something that you are already,it's not like, if only I would
have gotten violin lessons whenI was a kid, I could have been a
concert violinist, right. Butthe thing that you're already
(41:12):
very good at, we're very good atit from a young age. And there
are a couple of clues that Godgives us to tell us when we're
doing something that's withinthe field of our unique ability.
So one, the biggest one isenergy. Right? Look at your
(41:34):
energy levels, right? There aresome things that are very
energizing activities where whenyou're doing it, like man,I
could do this all day and allnight. Even if I weren't getting
paid for this, I would still doit, because it's just so much
fun and energizing. Right? Onthe totally opposite end of the
scale are things that are energydepleting. Energy depleting
(41:57):
things are not your uniqueability. So for me to plan any
kind of Logistics is like you'renot my unique ability. Another
sign is you get an exponentialimpact on your time, right? So
your 30 minutes for you, Dan,you spend 30 minutes on
(42:17):
financial statements forproperty, right? And you'll get
10 hours worth of like results.
It's like, here's what you haveto do, here's the thing, right?
As opposed to working outside ofyour unique ability, where your
10 hours of work might produce30 minutes of, of productivity,
right? My example of logistics,like for me to plan a vacation
for my family, or with my wife,I'll spend 20 hours because I
(42:42):
want to research the hotels. Ido a good job, but it's energy
depleting. I don't get a goodreturn. If I called a travel
agent in 30 minutes, they'd bedone, did it right, done. So
that is, I think a good thingfor people to keep in mind when
(43:02):
they're trying to figure outwhat their strengths are is just
like look at the energizingactivities.
Dan Sacks (43:08):
Yeah, I will say I think that that's really deep
focusing on the energy elementand aspect of it because that is
what you know, what whatultimately drives you in your
inside. What gives you thatenergy, find that energy, find
that spark, and play to thatbecause whatever that is, that
is going to just make youhappier over time. And fighting
(43:35):
that over a long period of timecan just reduce your overall
happiness. Irrespective of howsuccessful you are, you're not.
I actually subscribed to that'sone of the definitions of
"Where I get the most energy?",and I can focus and do that
(43:58):
every day. It has nothing to dowith money. I mean money you
need to provide security and ata reasonably lower level, which
that's a matter of relativeconsideration; but more money
doesn't make you happier abovethresholds that are not
(44:23):
considered vastly rich. So youhave to find something else that
drives you to really getenergized and enthused. There
are many people who make a tonof money are very lonely and
very unhappy. And I I can speakto my own experiences in certain
(44:45):
segments of just my career quiterecently where I was not
enthusiastic about certaininitiatives that I was
considering venturing into. Andso I diligence them and I made
an initial effort. And Iconcluded to I'm not energized
(45:10):
by pursuing them. And not thatthey're not good opportunities,
or that they're not profitableopportunities, I don't have a
predisposition to want to dothat every day. And so I tried
to channel that to the areas andelements in which I do.
Mordecai Rosenberg (45:41):
Makes sense.
So we've got about 10 minutesleft. One area I wanted to
transition to is leadership.
When you started at Greystoneyou were on your own? And I've
seen you evolve as a leader.
That's something that isleadership of managing other
(46:05):
people. And leadership istricky. There are books written
about it, but there's a lot thatyou have to figure out over
time, and you've evolved into avery talented and effective
leader. What would you sayyou've learned, if you think
back to your first managementexperiences, and looking to
(46:27):
today, what are some things thatyou've learned?
Dan Sacks (46:34):
I love that topic because some of the things that
I experienced that Freddie Mac,and then Wells Fargo, which are
larger enterprises, and thusmore traditional in the
corporate environment, orcorporate culture called
(46:56):
Corporate bureaucracy, thatreally had an impact on me. And
in those that stayed with me,that always bring me back to
trying to create something thatI thought was more effective.
Those were that I felt like, nomatter how dedicated and focused
(47:20):
to success, that I was beingpigeon holed and lacking
guidance and oversight. Somebodywho could help me advance
really, really motivated me tofind the right culture of
(47:43):
employment. That I felt wasgoing to bring out the best in
me. Providing that type ofadvancement and opportunity for
those that I hired and lead wasalways foundational to me,
because I put myself in thoseshoes. And honestly, today,
(48:07):
aside from growing my clientsportfolio, and serving as a
valued advisor to them, that'sone of the things that really
motivates me and turns me on.
Helping my clients achievesuccess over the long term, but
with every transaction along theway, more so than doing a bunch
(48:28):
of transactions for one offpeople. I like to build, and I
like to grow. And I like to seehow that is carried forward from
one to another. But the otherthat gets me out of bed every
morning is knowing that as Ibuilt a team, my responsibility
is creating growth for them,because they are going to need
(48:52):
that growth to advance their owncareer, or they're going to need
to find an opportunityelsewhere. And so I've strived
to find and hire for ambitionand serve as a coach with
respect to the details. BecauseI can't create passion, I can't
(49:18):
create energy. But if I havethose things, then I can train
somebody in commercial realestate underwriting, or the
intricacies of Fannie Mae,Freddie Mac and HUD. We can grow
over time to achieve the samelevels of knowledge, and
education, and experience that Imyself got as an analyst. I have
(49:43):
tried to create that environmentfor my team in a way that I
didn't have as a employee comingup right out of school and
trying to make my own way.
(50:06):
Dealing with the standardculture, which is you have a job
to do, do the job. We value you,we appreciate you, you're doing
a great job. But I was alwayscommitted to more, I was always
committed to enhancing my valueto the firm. I felt like the
(50:31):
firm didn't appreciate, didn'twant that value extracted from
me. And if that's the set ofdynamics, then I'm not going to
appreciate it, even if you doextend it. We've created a
culture here that I feel isconducive to growing talent. And
(50:53):
building the strongest group inthe industry that I could
assemble, based on myexperiences in the industry, as
I was coming up, trying to bethe center point, playing to
everybody's strengths, andputting together a dynamic
enough team that had differentstrengths. So that collectively
(51:15):
we were the strongest, butmotivating everybody by growth
and advancement. And focusing onpassion, energy, ethics, kind of
building and growing from there.
Mordecai Rosenberg (51:34):
All this talk about the great resignation
now. We're sitting here,February 2022. I've always felt
that there's always talk abouthow do you retain employees? And
certainly, you want people towant to stay with you. Right?
That being said, I don't reallywant to be someone's last stop
(51:58):
on the train. Because someonewho's really ambitious and wants
to grow, they're going to havesome future. And you're going to
be part of their career, butprobably not the last stop on
it. So I'm very open abouttelling my team that I want to
know what they want to do next.
I want to help them prepare.
(52:23):
What can I do to prepare you foryour next role? Whether it's at
Greystone, if it's at anothercompany, but what are the
capabilities that you want todevelop? Right? Now, the irony,
or perhaps not irony, is that ifyou are always providing those
kinds of opportunities for yourpeople they're going to want to
stay.
Dan Sacks (52:43):
They want to stay. As they appreciate their growth,
and advancement, and skills thatthey're building. Honestly, I
think that the ultimate feelingof your manager caring about
you, and your professionalcareer, as well as your personal
life, and well being. It's sucha deep concept, which every
(53:09):
employer makes an effort and anattempt, but the jury is the
employee.
Mordecai Rosenberg (53:16):
It's hard to do when, especially in the
origination business, wherethings are just so busy all the
time. There's deal flow, andthere are fires, right? How do
you take the time to actuallywork on development? But if you
can start with that mindset of,I'm here to facilitate the
(53:42):
maximum success of my teammembers. Just that small switch
in perspective, just everyconversation you have with them.
It's like, alright, what can wedo? What's going well, what
(54:02):
capabilities were in our annualreviews for our team? You know,
one of the things that I askedis, what are three capabilities
they want to develop this year?
Maybe it's a class, maybe it'sworking with another team, but
I'm always keeping as much of aneye out for opportunities for
them as much as they are. Maybenot quite as much as they are,
but I never want to hold on toan employee. I want them to work
(54:26):
with me for so long as that'sthe best thing available to
them.
Dan Sacks (54:33):
You're gonna get as a result, you're going to get the
best for them. And when we talkabout careers, and we talk about
these things, it's important tonote that. God willing,
everybody has a long timehorizon where people may come
back with extra skills. Youryour hiring needs may be
(54:55):
different. I hold myself to athe standard that I want my
employees to be able to replaceme, I never want to stand in the
way of their growth. And I willbe successful if they can
replace me, in part andultimately in whole. And then I
(55:20):
can focus on a higher valueinitiative to provide further
growth yet for our whole groupto kind of continue to ascend
upon.
Mordecai Rosenberg (55:37):
Look, if you want to ever be able to go on
vacation for a week, with yourwife, your family and not have
to, check email. The only way todo that is to set up your team
to be able to replace you,right? And maybe it's just for
that week, but they have to haveall of those capabilities that
they can stand in and do whatyou do.
Dan Sacks (55:59):
It takes time to accomplish, it really does.
Because, I mean, I was a bigmicromanager from the beginning.
I still have certain issues withletting somebody else take
accountability for myresponsibility, and not have
anxiety that it could end badly.
I think that kind of philosophy,this philosophy does create the
(56:28):
most productive, fulfilling workenvironment, that the best
people should seek.
Mordecai Rosenberg (56:43):
Yep. What else would someone want?
Dan Sacks (56:46):
That's where it starts with energy, it starts
with passion, it starts withunderstanding. And I've had
people that always think thegrass is greener on the other
side, and sometimes you justhave to let folks learn their
own way. But when you care aboutyour employees as they're an
(57:10):
extended part of my family, I doview that. And I also recognize
that those leading really bigcorporations may have much
larger teams, and it's hard totake such a personal focus to
each one. But by the same token,I think it's the obligation of
(57:31):
the firm. And I think the firmlearns from its leaders, how to
cultivate and grow talent. Ithink I learned that from Steve,
your father, and how he attacksbusiness every day, as well as
his own code of ethics, and hisown demeanor towards every
(57:53):
person. And every employee inthe firm. And a lot of that has
shaped my philosophy on on howwe engage with our staff, but
not everyone does it that way.
Mordecai Rosenberg (58:09):
Well, the success of your team speaks for
itself. Dan, I've been nowwatching from a little bit more
of a distance, and I've beenincredibly proud of the results
that you've achieved In terms ofproduction, but also as a leader
and developing as a human being.
So keep up the great work. Andit's been a delight to have you
(58:31):
on the on the podcast. So thankyou.
Dan Sacks (58:35):
You're most welcome.
And I appreciate being with you.
Thanks for having me on.
Mordecai Rosenberg (58:41):
Awesome. All right, Dan, I'll talk to you
soon. Take care.
Welcome back to the Origination podcast where
we interview the top originatorsand salespeople in the
multifamily industry to try tounderstand what separates the
top performers from the rest ofthe pack. On this episode, I'll
be speaking with Dan Sacks. Dancame to Greystone with an
underwriting background havingworked at Freddie Mac and Wells
(00:38):
Fargo. However, it was veryclear from day one that Dan had
the heart of an originator. Now,there are many underwriters who
think they might want to makethe transition to origination.
And maybe some even do make thetransition. But I have not seen
very many who have achieved thatoutsize success that Dan has.
(01:02):
Within just a couple of years.
He was Greystone's top agencyoriginator, and has brought in
about seven and a half billiondollars of deals in the last
five years. How do you do it?
And how do you make the leap?
Well, let's find out and speakwith Dan.
(01:23):
We have the legendary Dan Sacks.
Dan, welcome to the Originationpodcast. It's great to have you.
Dan Sacks (01:30):
Thanks for having me, Mordy. It's good to be here.
Mordecai Rosenberg (01:33):
So, Dan, you've had a very interesting
path in multifamily finance andI want to talk about your path
from underwriting to originationin a little bit. But first, I
was curious, is there anyearlier sales experience that
comes to mind? What's the firstthing that you remember selling?
(01:56):
It could be selling chocolatesin school, or in high school, or
job, like anything else come tomind as far as earlier sales
experience?
Dan Sacks (02:06):
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I can remember selling
lemonade as a kid. Going to thepark and making a lemonade stand
and trying to court parkgoers topay 50 cents for some lemonade.
I remember some of the drives atelementary school where you go
(02:29):
door to door selling chocolates.
And they would keep tabs on howmany you know what kind of
numbers everybody made inchocolate sales. Unlike some, my
parents refused to sell anychocolates on my behalf. I had
to go door to door and actually,I enjoyed it. I found that fun.
(02:50):
Probably even younger than that,I can recall creating a store in
my house of pots and pans, andputting prices on them, and
inviting my parents to come buyback their home furnishings;
using my brother as my generalmanager.
Mordecai Rosenberg (03:15):
That's funny. I threatened to do that
with my kids the opposite way.
Where I say that if they leave asweatshirt on the couch in the
living room, I'm gonna keep itand make them buy it back from
me. Yeah, they want it back. Soa little different idea. The
chocolate sales, you know, Iremember those chocolate drives.
And I'll tell you, I alsoremember going door to door, I
(03:36):
must have been in third grade orso. I remember just hating it
and being terrified, absolutelyterrified to like knock on
doors. And the truth is thatlike initially when I got into
sales and started cold calling,I was also terrified. Coaching
and practice until I gotcomfortable with that. It's
interesting to hear you say thatyou liked it. What did you like
(03:58):
about that? Do you remember,like what your approach was when
you knocked on the door?
Dan Sacks (04:08):
It's a great analogy.
You know, today and through anycareer, I think sales is one of
the most marketable andimportant skills to to have. I
have always felt that the bestway to sell somebody something
is to be passionate and haveconviction that you are offering
(04:32):
them something of value. Andthat always brought me comfort,
to meet strangers, or to talk topeople I've never talked to. Not
much has changed over life;doing that door to door to raise
(04:53):
money for the school, ParentTeachers Association. Selling
chocolates to selling mortgages.
Mordecai Rosenberg (05:07):
I guess the value you felt you're providing
is that you're doing a servicefor the school. Right. And so it
was inherently positive activitythat you were doing, and maybe
the chocolates were pretty goodalso.
Dan Sacks (05:19):
Yeah, of course, I tried a chocolate bar and put $1
in there, and knew my productand knew that it was for good
cause. And then I turned it intoa game. That's another important
kind of element that I think isimportant to good salesman is
being competitive and pushingyourself to exceed your own
(05:40):
expectations. And being kind ofcommitted to wanting to win. For
the sake of proving it toyourself.
Mordecai Rosenberg (05:53):
How did that game work? What was the game
that you played back then withthe chocolate?
Dan Sacks (05:59):
Well, at first, I would go to a door and try to
make a sale. If that the firstsale didn't lead to a closed
sale, it probably took me aquarter around the neighborhood
until I refined my pitch. To beeffective at every excuse as to
(06:23):
why somebody was not interestedin purchasing the chocolate: I
have my own kids selling theirown chocolate, we just bought a
lot of chocolate from somebodyelse, we don't eat chocolate. So
there are multiple ways toimprove to be prepared for that.
(06:44):
I would then tally what my mysales were, and try to improve
on those. And I had fun with it.
It was more of an experiencethat I found engaging as a
child, and perhaps a lot ofthose, that same process, is
kind of applicable to every typeof sales initiative or process.
Mordecai Rosenberg (07:14):
That's right. So we'll dig into that in
just a little bit. So your pathagain, you did not go straight
into origination, when you gotinto multifamily, right? And you
came up through an underwritingchannel, right? There's lots of
(07:40):
people who come up to anunderwriting channel and say,
oh, I want to be an originator.
They'd like to make some moremoney, and they want to make
that leap. Now, a very smallpercentage of those people
actually even try, right,because it's a hard leap to
make. You're going from a salaryto commission based job like
(08:03):
that's a tough leap. But out ofthose people that do make the
leap, very few of them actuallysucceed in in origination. You
went from not only did you makethe leap, but became, within
just a couple of years, youbecame a top agency producer in
the company. I have a lot ofquestions. But let's say to
(08:27):
start out, you know, when yougraduate college, and did you go
to Freddie Mac, right fromcollege?
Dan Sacks (08:35):
Correct. I started at Freddie Mac, upon graduating
from the University of Maryland,in 2009.
Mordecai Rosenberg (08:45):
And what was the thought process with that?
How did you, you know, what madeyou think about Freddie Mac?
That's also unconventional to goto, well not, the public sector;
but it's a big agency. I didn'thave a lot of classmates who
went to Fannie Mae or FreddieMac. So how did you think about
that?
Dan Sacks (09:04):
So fortunately, they posted a listing for new college
hires on the Robert H. SmithSchool of Business is a portal,
and it caught my eye. Because itwas it was local, and it was a
fortune 500 company thatspecialized in real estate. I
wish I had much moreintelligence at that point to
(09:27):
understand the the macroperspective of their operations,
but I was just a young hungrycollege kid that needed a job
out of school and, and applied.
Mordecai Rosenberg (09:42):
Yeah, so you didn't think as far as being in
real estate. Did you know thatyou wanted to be in real estate
or just was just sounded like aninteresting opportunity?
Dan Sacks (09:53):
I did plan to be in real estate. I I've always
thought that real estate can'tbecome obsolete. It can't go
away, it's always going to behere and carry value. And it was
something tangible that I couldsee and touch and and easily
understand. And so, I tried totackle it from: how do I enter
(10:19):
the real estate industry? Whatare the skills I would need to
have to succeed?
Mordecai Rosenberg (10:27):
What were those skills that you thought
you would need to have?
Dan Sacks (10:30):
Well, when I started at Freddie Mac, I tried to
identify what is it that I needto know to advance. I dedicated
a large percent of time tomeeting with with coworkers, and
colleagues, and those moreexperienced than me, to ask
(10:51):
those those questions. I wastold by a friend Aaron Dunn, who
was working on thesecuritization side of Freddie
Mac's business, that themortgage bankers are those that
are creating the transaction,and then selling them to Freddie
(11:13):
Mac. The perspective of howFreddie Mac views transactions,
and prices transactions, andexecutes in the secondary
mortgage market was very helpfulinformation to obtain. And the
people at Freddie Mac reallycarry an important industry
(11:38):
function in the execution of themission of Freddie Mac and
Fannie Mac, for that matter.
Yeah, which, is the stabilityand liquidity to to the mortgage
market. Diagnosing what skillsyou need to have. And then
identifying what role that thosewould correlate to, and you
(12:04):
should look to pursue, I thinkis a strong foundation prior to
making a move. I tried to gatherthat study, as soon as I joined
the workforce out of school.
Mordecai Rosenberg (12:23):
I always thought it was amazing that when
you're applying for a job out ofschool, right, you don't really
know what the difference is. Youknow, if I applied to an
investment bank, I don't knowwhat the difference is between
sales and trading, and clientcoverage, or Treasury
Department. You just want to geta job, right. But then you get
(12:46):
that first job, and all of asudden, now you're on a track.
Right? And now 20 years later,that's your career. So as far as
getting that first job, surethere's a bit of of just good
fortune in that, but as far asleveraging that to the full
extent possible, you wereintentional about it. Wasn't
(13:07):
just like, Oh, I'm just gonna dowhatever work they they give me.
Sure, you have the work to do,but you also want to know that
that simple question of what doI need to know in order to
advance? Right? I mean, justimagine the difference if first
secondary analysts, right, ifthey came in and asked that
question. What do I need to knowto advance? To me, it sounds so
(13:30):
obvious, but I really don'tthink a lot of people ask that
simple question.
Dan Sacks (13:38):
I felt that that was critical to not taking too much
risk; making moves that were notcohesive with growth or that
trying to reduce the probabilityof failure. To establish the set
of skills that were marketableand create a floor on my
(14:02):
earnings as a contributor, as ateam member. By learning skills,
or focusing on developing thoseskills, needed to obtain the
proficiency in those areas. So Iknew I would always have a job
(14:27):
and be important to my employer.
Mordecai Rosenberg (14:33):
It's also interesting, starting with one
of the agencies; let's say ifyou start as an analyst with a
lender. So you're gonna start,you're gonna learn how to size
deals, and you're trying tofigure out, alright, what is
going to be a fit for FannieMae, or Freddie Mac, or FHA, or
(14:54):
our bridge program. And then,out of the deals you size, if
one out of 10 or one out of 20makes it to application, then
you're you're submitting it andyou have some involvement to see
what happens with that. But ifyou're starting on the agency
side, every deal, every singledeal that you're looking at from
(15:17):
day one, you're the decisionmaker, right? And so if you want
to know, if you want to learnhow the agencies think about a
deal, you know, I wonder aboutjust how accelerated your
education is starting at anagency compared to starting at a
lender.
Dan Sacks (15:38):
It was certainly beneficial to understand how
Freddie Mac and ultimately, youknow, Fannie Mae view
transactions, view credit risk,price deals, fulfill their
mission. And the best way that Igot up to speed on that was
twofold. One was by readingtheir guides, backwards and
(16:00):
forwards, and going to thesource data to become fluent in
all of those parameters. Ialways saw it out in the
information that was published,to study and understand, and
(16:22):
then apply to real lifescenarios. I think the first
time I ever sized the deal; Ileft Freddie Mac after two and a
half years, because I I believethat was I felt at that time,
Freddie Mac was transitioning totheir K Series model. But my
(16:46):
division was not yet puttingtogether the underwriting
themselves. So it was adifferent model where the lender
was was doing a lot of that. AndI felt like I needed to
understand fully how to put thattogether. I accepted a job Wells
Fargo Multifamily Capital. And Iwas on the production screening
(17:12):
side, putting together deals,and so I spent the time to read
the Fannie Mae and Freddie Macguides. Then I tried to apply
that to real life scenarios, andyou know, pulled up one Excel
workbook of a completed dealthat was similar to the one that
I was working on. And taughtmyself the formulas in the
(17:36):
completed workbook to input theinformation and to understand
kind of where the transactionthat I was working on was
shaking out. Then reference theguide, and continued to just
build on that. And through thenrepetition. And asking some
(18:00):
questions when you don't knowthe answer, or you think it
could be either A or B. Youstart to build on your knowledge
base, which, over time withstrong work ethic gives you an
exponential level of growth inyour skill set.
Mordecai Rosenberg (18:25):
It's funny, I remember doing the same thing
with the sizing sheet. When Istarted as an analyst doing FHA.
There was one tab that was yourfinal loan amount. That's it.
Okay. That says minimum ofABCDE. So okay, well then, what
ABCD and E? Well, one is, youknow, 80% loan to value. All
(18:48):
right, what's loan to value?
Dan Sacks (18:50):
Right? We start with ABCs. No one is going to sit
down and tell you each thing.
But Google is a tremendousresource in today's day and age.
Yep. Where you can Google justabout anything and read up on
it, but you have to have thatcompetitiveness or that drive or
be a self starter, and challengeyourself to find the answers the
best you can. To kind of helpyourself, you can ask people for
(19:17):
help, but nobody is going togive you the script.
Mordecai Rosenberg (19:28):
Did you work with Alan Wiener at all at
Wealth?
Dan Sacks (19:31):
So Alan Wiener was the group head, and I believe
still is, I worked on a numberof his prolific deals in in
Manhattan. At that point in timewere well into the hundreds of
millions. And that was also verygood experience to cut your
(19:54):
teeth on. But I can say that Ididn't treat any differently,
the $150 million deal I wasworking on that was Alan wieners
client, or the $6 million dealthat was someone else's client.
I was focused on understandinghow do I get an edge and a
(20:15):
competitive advantage todelivering enhanced terms on
whichever transaction that I wasworking on.
Mordecai Rosenberg (20:25):
So I know that one of the things that you
got very good at is knowingwhere you could push the
agencies. When you came toGreystone, that was something
that was a revelation to me,when I started working with you
is that we thought that you havethis pricing grid, and there's
(20:49):
debt service coverage, and LTV,and that's what you have. And
you kind of opened my eyes tothis idea that like, oh, no,
that's your starting point. Butwe're gonna push for a 40 basis
point pricing waiver here. And Iknow that I'm confident that I
can get it. So where in terms ofknowing that there's that
(21:11):
ability to bend? Did you learnthat from working at Freddie?
Well, it's like, you can readthe books, but when did you
realize that you can also bendthe books, as well, so to speak.
Dan Sacks (21:25):
So a lot of that came from reading the guide. As far
as credit underwriting goes, andafter I was well versed in the
agency domain, I did the samewith HUD, I continue to read the
guide. Because the guide tellsyou what you can do what you
can't do. And then there'swhat's not said in the guide,
(21:52):
should all be said andincorporated in your
presentation of the transaction,with support, and mitigating
elements to any levels of riskto the transaction. That you're
sending to the agencies, or toanybody that you're requesting a
(22:12):
quote from, for that matter. AndI think that's what puts the
deal in the best light to getthe best terms is when that's
well thought through, wellresearched, and, you know, what
parameters you're otherwiseconstrained within. As well as
which you're not.
Mordecai Rosenberg (22:34):
Mm hmm.
Right. And then just doingtransactions and seeing--
Dan Sacks (22:39):
And then repetition.
It took it took a long time, andI still see some problems I've
never encountered before. But byand large at this point, I have
seen a lot of the regularissues, which I've tried to
incorporate in our processes tomitigate, and be in front, of so
(23:00):
that they don't occur. But I'vealso seen those that are outside
of my control, and now haveexperience in dealing with those
to be able to advise. With somethings, just require practice
and tenure, and consistency, andexperience. There's no shortcut
(23:26):
on that front.
Mordecai Rosenberg (23:32):
That makes sense. So I remember when you
started at Greystone, or maybeit wasn't right away, but but
fairly soon after you startedit. So we actually even though
your background was on theagency side, you know, we hired
you onto the FHA team. Yet, andI don't know, probably a lot of
(23:52):
lenders are set up this way; butGreystone was set up, still is
to a large extent, with an FHAdivision, and salespeople that
were largely focused on FHA. Andyou had an agency division and
the salespeople that werelargely focused on Fannie and
Freddie. Then the CMBS division,we're largely focused on CMBS,
(24:17):
etc. Now, I grew up in FHA andour clients would have agency
needs. We would submit termsheets to them, based on, you
know, the sizing guidelines thatwe had, and we just were not
winning deals. Someone else,another agency lender, would
(24:39):
come in and was able to providemore money, at a lower rate, and
we just looked pretty silly. Sowhat we realized is that we
really needed training. Weneeded support because we just
didn't know how to bidaggressively. All right. So you
(25:01):
came in and at the beginningdidn't go right into
origination. But we had youworking hand in hand with all
the FHA originators who want toget agency deals done. So can
you describe that experience?
What was that like? And do youthink it was unique as a role in
the industry?
Dan Sacks (25:24):
Yeah, I think that that was that was one of the
more creative things thatGreystone did at the time to
bring somebody with agencyexperience. And place them under
the FHA division, which nobodyelse was doing. Each product had
(25:47):
its own siloed kind of group incompanies. That's how it was at
Wells Fargo. And that's myunderstanding how it still is
today. But the the objective wasto be able to provide clients
with the entire set of options,and do so in a way that was
(26:17):
industry leading with expertisewithin the team as it pertains
to each execution. And by way ofthat, I learned a tremendous
amount amount about FHA. And Ihope my my colleagues in the FHA
(26:38):
group learned a lot aboutagency. But we were able to
serve the client in such anadvanced way, in faster response
times. Because we were placedtogether in working on the deal
and servicing the client. I feltthat many people learned and
(27:05):
they've worked really well forfor the customer. And I credit
Greystone and yourself when youwere running that division for
that foresight, and creativity,and being focused on the
customer, and bringing aboutthat kind of level of competence
within your group. I thinkGreystone really benefited from
(27:30):
seeing that model work and beingable to deploy that in other
areas across the firm.
Mordecai Rosenberg (27:38):
Yeah, thank you for saying that. But it's a
simple thing. When you'rethinking about how to get
business done, you have tounderstand that your
salespeople, you have to meetpeople where they are. There is
this idea that you could trainFHA guys to just be able to do
agency. And my experience isthat salespeople, at least in
(28:02):
our industry, I don't know ifthis is true in all industries,
but for some reason in ourindustry, like multifamily
finance, it seems likesalespeople learn a particular
product, and they get verycomfortable with that product.
And it's very difficult for themto start selling something else
that they have. They don't havethe confidence in it, you know,
(28:24):
so you can try to make thatdifferent. It makes our
salespeople learn how to sellsomething else, right? Or you
can meet them where they are,and just say, look, let's find
it, let's give you a resource togive you the confidence. Now,
one of the things that I thinkyou also gained and they gained,
(28:45):
was that they trusted you tojust be right up in front of the
client. Probably a lot of thosedeals, they're just like luck.
"Dan, just, you know, go runwith it". Maybe copy me on
emails, but I want you handlingthis. So now you were able to, I
(29:05):
guess cut your teeth, but reallyget a lot of transactional
experience working with ownersworking with brokers. Building
up that confidence on that. Doyou agree?
Dan Sacks (29:20):
I do and you know, I have no qualms of ever playing
Robin to anyone's Batman. It isnot about what I'm doing. It's
about what we're doing and howwe're working together. And and
(29:40):
I always thought that all thatpreparation, which was about six
years, of the standard personworks nine to five, which I
don't. I never understood howsomebody can work nine to five
and actually get ahead, butperhaps that's a separate
conversation. So I, when I wasworking out, I committed my
(30:03):
early years of life to this, tobeing an expert at this, and
hoping that I would find anopportunity to be able to deploy
that edge. That's kind of thesaying, when preparation meets
opportunity, you can get to areally incredible place. That
(30:26):
kind of just happened. But Ithink it happened because I was
prepared. And I sought anopportunity to kind of deploy
that skill set, and while it wasa multi year kind of strategy, I
(30:47):
felt like I built a strongfoundation in obtaining
specialized skills; that I wasalways fine being the
complimentary adder to getexperience on transactions and
see real life examples of howthis works. Then I built the
(31:13):
confidence because I was solvingthe problems. At that point,
once you're there, you'refeeling confident in going out
and developing your own clientroster.
Mordecai Rosenberg (31:31):
Yet, you mentioned before, when you were
talking about selling thechocolate, that you felt like
you needed to have convictionthat you're providing something
of value, demonstrated value tothe client. That is difficult.
(31:52):
It's something that I alwaysfelt challenged with, you know,
selling agency business becauseit's designed to be kind of a
commodity. The agencies wantedto be mostly a commodity.
Dan Sacks (32:04):
I think that the agencies want the perception
that all lenders are equal tothem. And they are all equal to
them. But I think the market maythink that agency financing is a
commodity. But I think I'm anexample to demonstrate outsized
results. As I'm not onlycompeting on customer service,
(32:27):
I'm looking to win on terms. SoI think that's a good point.
Mordecai Rosenberg (32:34):
So and I agree with that. And that was
something that I thoughtfirsthand. You know, I remember,
there was a client that you andI worked on together, early on,
where we had been losing agencybusiness, to other lenders. And
you started quoting theirbusiness and you're coming in
(32:55):
above, right? More loanproceeds, you know, better rate.
And the clients like, "Well howare you guys gonna achieve
this?" I guess other lendersaren't saying that. You had the
confidence to say, "No, we'regoing to do it." And we did. So
to have the confidence to say,look, I can get you max dollars,
(33:19):
I can get you absolute maxdollars on this deal. Right?
That's something that in theend, those Max dollars will be
higher than the max dollars youwould get from another lender.
That is something that is verycompelling, right. And that's
only comes from knowing thosehaving the experience of being
(33:41):
inside the deals, doing thelegwork to research the guide. I
think that's unique for asalesperson to want to delve so
deeply into details.
Dan Sacks (33:53):
Yeah, I think so. I don't think innately I'm a
natural born salesman. I thinkthat certain salespeople are
very effective at cultivatingrelationships, and presenting,
and being persuasive andpolished at making a sale. I
(34:19):
never found so much satisfactionin what what I felt was perhaps
manipulating somebody to make apurchase in and of itself. And
therefore, I always felt thatthere's no way that a client
(34:40):
would not appreciate somebodyproviding a sophisticated
opinion and a value set thatthat was different based on my
opinion This is what I would doif I were them. And I have
(35:04):
dedicated a tremendous amount oftime to really study my domain,
my sector. Yeah, I just foundthat the sale then is more
natural, it was more natural tome. And I think I've seen some
very talented salesman, evenwithin the Greystone
(35:26):
organization and those at otherfirms. It's interesting to me,
the dynamic and the makeup ofeach of those that are really
successful, still is quitedifferent one to another.
Mordecai Rosenberg (35:43):
Yeah, I would even go further to say
that, you know, I've had about25 people or so on the podcast
and there's not a single onethat's had the same strategy as
another, as the same way ofdoing business. They all come at
it with our own their ownflavor, you know, of how they
approach it.
Dan Sacks (36:04):
One's not necessarily better than the other there. I
think it's important to developyour flavor.
Mordecai Rosenberg (36:11):
And your flavor is based on your own
natural born capabilities. Youknow, if you're someone who's
not a big picture guy, who's notinto the details, they're not
going to be able to dig in andknow all the nuances of the
(36:35):
guide. Right? And so fine, youhave to take take your own
approach. Maybe you're good atjust big picture transaction,
structuring, maybe you're goodat, I don't know, making
connections and providing valuethat way. Right. But your flavor
of sales has to be based on whatyou are already good at.
Dan Sacks (36:55):
I couldn't agree with you more. Probably the most
impactful book that I ever haveread, and it was the shortest,
is Tom Rath Strength Finders.
The concept of focus on theskills or the elements that
(37:18):
you're already good at. Andforego trying to be good at
everything. Understand who youare, and what your skill set is
that motivates you, that you arealready better than average at
and focus on being excellent atthose. And that was that was
(37:44):
very different than what I'vebeen taught and what I expected
out of myself, as an analyst,right, coming, you know, in my
mid 20s, wanting to impresseverybody that I did work with,
right? And coming to therealization that I just wasn't
(38:05):
good at everything.
Mordecai Rosenberg (38:11):
It's liquid, that's what we're taught in
school. When you go to parentteacher conferences for your
kids. What do they talk to youabout? Well, you know, they're
struggling in this. It's aboutvery specific things. They're
not saying, you know, he has anexcellent way of organizing
teams on the playground. He justreally knows everyone's
(38:33):
strengths. You know, he knowshow to put together a great
football team on on theplayground.
Dan Sacks (38:37):
That kind of color from a teacher in elementary
school would be quite beneficialto a parent. But yeah, that's
not how we get it.
Mordecai Rosenberg (38:46):
So we go through school and all we get
attention for is what were ourweaknesses. And we're told to
work on our weaknesses. DanSullivan, my executive coach,
you know, he says that, ifyou're just working on your
weaknesses, when you die, you'lljust have a bunch of strong
weaknesses. Right. But if youwork on your strengths, that you
(39:09):
could be the best in the world.
You know, how is MichaelJordan's serve in tennis?
Dan Sacks (39:20):
He might care a lot of his competitive spirit, but
beyond that...
Mordecai Rosenberg (39:25):
Who cares?
Right. Not a very well roundedathlete. I mean, he's more well
rounded than most but...
Dan Sacks (39:33):
It's true. And we are taught the opposite. We are
taught that you need to developthis well rounded skill set and
focus on your weaknesses. And Iembraced my natural strengths
and my natural weaknesses. And Ithink one of the best functions
(39:57):
or most important functions inbuilding a team, is not to build
a team of everyone just likeyou. It's to find those that are
good at certain things andbetter at other things. And
complement one another. Right?
But I'm, I'm such a big believerin having passion for what
(40:20):
you're doing. And I think that'ssuper hard also to have in
improving weaknesses. Right. AndI think that's the concept in
that equation is that the amountof work and gravity against you
taking a weakness and turning itinto an absolute strength. It's
probably greater than takingsomething that you are
(40:45):
passionate and enjoy doing. Soyou're not fighting that element
of gravity.
Mordecai Rosenberg (40:51):
I don't know if I've talked about it on the
podcast, and maybe I'll get intoit another episode; but I
believe that that everyone hasan unique ability. And that's
also a Dan Sullivan concept fromStrategic Coach. That's
something that you are already,it's not like, if only I would
have gotten violin lessons whenI was a kid, I could have been a
concert violinist, right. Butthe thing that you're already
(41:12):
very good at, we're very good atit from a young age. And there
are a couple of clues that Godgives us to tell us when we're
doing something that's withinthe field of our unique ability.
So one, the biggest one isenergy. Right? Look at your
(41:34):
energy levels, right? There aresome things that are very
energizing activities where whenyou're doing it, like man,I
could do this all day and allnight. Even if I weren't getting
paid for this, I would still doit, because it's just so much
fun and energizing. Right? Onthe totally opposite end of the
scale are things that are energydepleting. Energy depleting
(41:57):
things are not your uniqueability. So for me to plan any
kind of Logistics is like you'renot my unique ability. Another
sign is you get an exponentialimpact on your time, right? So
your 30 minutes for you, Dan,you spend 30 minutes on
(42:17):
financial statements forproperty, right? And you'll get
10 hours worth of like results.
It's like, here's what you haveto do, here's the thing, right?
As opposed to working outside ofyour unique ability, where your
10 hours of work might produce30 minutes of, of productivity,
right? My example of logistics,like for me to plan a vacation
for my family, or with my wife,I'll spend 20 hours because I
(42:42):
want to research the hotels. Ido a good job, but it's energy
depleting. I don't get a goodreturn. If I called a travel
agent in 30 minutes, they'd bedone, did it right, done. So
that is, I think a good thingfor people to keep in mind when
(43:02):
they're trying to figure outwhat their strengths are is just
like look at the energizingactivities.
Dan Sacks (43:08):
Yeah, I will say I think that that's really deep
focusing on the energy elementand aspect of it because that is
what you know, what whatultimately drives you in your
inside. What gives you thatenergy, find that energy, find
that spark, and play to thatbecause whatever that is, that
is going to just make youhappier over time. And fighting
(43:35):
that over a long period of timecan just reduce your overall
happiness. Irrespective of howsuccessful you are, you're not.
I actually subscribed to that'sone of the definitions of
"Where I get the most energy?",and I can focus and do that
(43:58):
every day. It has nothing to dowith money. I mean money you
need to provide security and ata reasonably lower level, which
that's a matter of relativeconsideration; but more money
doesn't make you happier abovethresholds that are not
(44:23):
considered vastly rich. So youhave to find something else that
drives you to really getenergized and enthused. There
are many people who make a tonof money are very lonely and
very unhappy. And I I can speakto my own experiences in certain
(44:45):
segments of just my career quiterecently where I was not
enthusiastic about certaininitiatives that I was
considering venturing into. Andso I diligence them and I made
an initial effort. And Iconcluded to I'm not energized
(45:10):
by pursuing them. And not thatthey're not good opportunities,
or that they're not profitableopportunities, I don't have a
predisposition to want to dothat every day. And so I tried
to channel that to the areas andelements in which I do.
Mordecai Rosenberg (45:41):
Makes sense.
So we've got about 10 minutesleft. One area I wanted to
transition to is leadership.
When you started at Greystoneyou were on your own? And I've
seen you evolve as a leader.
That's something that isleadership of managing other
(46:05):
people. And leadership istricky. There are books written
about it, but there's a lot thatyou have to figure out over
time, and you've evolved into avery talented and effective
leader. What would you sayyou've learned, if you think
back to your first managementexperiences, and looking to
(46:27):
today, what are some things thatyou've learned?
Dan Sacks (46:34):
I love that topic because some of the things that
I experienced that Freddie Mac,and then Wells Fargo, which are
larger enterprises, and thusmore traditional in the
corporate environment, orcorporate culture called
(46:56):
Corporate bureaucracy, thatreally had an impact on me. And
in those that stayed with me,that always bring me back to
trying to create something thatI thought was more effective.
Those were that I felt like, nomatter how dedicated and focused
(47:20):
to success, that I was beingpigeon holed and lacking
guidance and oversight. Somebodywho could help me advance
really, really motivated me tofind the right culture of
(47:43):
employment. That I felt wasgoing to bring out the best in
me. Providing that type ofadvancement and opportunity for
those that I hired and lead wasalways foundational to me,
because I put myself in thoseshoes. And honestly, today,
(48:07):
aside from growing my clientsportfolio, and serving as a
valued advisor to them, that'sone of the things that really
motivates me and turns me on.
Helping my clients achievesuccess over the long term, but
with every transaction along theway, more so than doing a bunch
(48:28):
of transactions for one offpeople. I like to build, and I
like to grow. And I like to seehow that is carried forward from
one to another. But the otherthat gets me out of bed every
morning is knowing that as Ibuilt a team, my responsibility
is creating growth for them,because they are going to need
(48:52):
that growth to advance their owncareer, or they're going to need
to find an opportunityelsewhere. And so I've strived
to find and hire for ambitionand serve as a coach with
respect to the details. BecauseI can't create passion, I can't
(49:18):
create energy. But if I havethose things, then I can train
somebody in commercial realestate underwriting, or the
intricacies of Fannie Mae,Freddie Mac and HUD. We can grow
over time to achieve the samelevels of knowledge, and
education, and experience that Imyself got as an analyst. I have
(49:43):
tried to create that environmentfor my team in a way that I
didn't have as a employee comingup right out of school and
trying to make my own way.
(50:06):
Dealing with the standardculture, which is you have a job
to do, do the job. We value you,we appreciate you, you're doing
a great job. But I was alwayscommitted to more, I was always
committed to enhancing my valueto the firm. I felt like the
(50:31):
firm didn't appreciate, didn'twant that value extracted from
me. And if that's the set ofdynamics, then I'm not going to
appreciate it, even if you doextend it. We've created a
culture here that I feel isconducive to growing talent. And
(50:53):
building the strongest group inthe industry that I could
assemble, based on myexperiences in the industry, as
I was coming up, trying to bethe center point, playing to
everybody's strengths, andputting together a dynamic
enough team that had differentstrengths. So that collectively
(51:15):
we were the strongest, butmotivating everybody by growth
and advancement. And focusing onpassion, energy, ethics, kind of
building and growing from there.
Mordecai Rosenberg (51:34):
All this talk about the great resignation
now. We're sitting here,February 2022. I've always felt
that there's always talk abouthow do you retain employees? And
certainly, you want people towant to stay with you. Right?
That being said, I don't reallywant to be someone's last stop
(51:58):
on the train. Because someonewho's really ambitious and wants
to grow, they're going to havesome future. And you're going to
be part of their career, butprobably not the last stop on
it. So I'm very open abouttelling my team that I want to
know what they want to do next.
I want to help them prepare.
(52:23):
What can I do to prepare you foryour next role? Whether it's at
Greystone, if it's at anothercompany, but what are the
capabilities that you want todevelop? Right? Now, the irony,
or perhaps not irony, is that ifyou are always providing those
kinds of opportunities for yourpeople they're going to want to
stay.
Dan Sacks (52:43):
They want to stay. As they appreciate their growth,
and advancement, and skills thatthey're building. Honestly, I
think that the ultimate feelingof your manager caring about
you, and your professionalcareer, as well as your personal
life, and well being. It's sucha deep concept, which every
(53:09):
employer makes an effort and anattempt, but the jury is the
employee.
Mordecai Rosenberg (53:16):
It's hard to do when, especially in the
origination business, wherethings are just so busy all the
time. There's deal flow, andthere are fires, right? How do
you take the time to actuallywork on development? But if you
can start with that mindset of,I'm here to facilitate the
(53:42):
maximum success of my teammembers. Just that small switch
in perspective, just everyconversation you have with them.
It's like, alright, what can wedo? What's going well, what
(54:02):
capabilities were in our annualreviews for our team? You know,
one of the things that I askedis, what are three capabilities
they want to develop this year?
Maybe it's a class, maybe it'sworking with another team, but
I'm always keeping as much of aneye out for opportunities for
them as much as they are. Maybenot quite as much as they are,
but I never want to hold on toan employee. I want them to work
(54:26):
with me for so long as that'sthe best thing available to
them.
Dan Sacks (54:33):
You're gonna get as a result, you're going to get the
best for them. And when we talkabout careers, and we talk about
these things, it's important tonote that. God willing,
everybody has a long timehorizon where people may come
back with extra skills. Youryour hiring needs may be
(54:55):
different. I hold myself to athe standard that I want my
employees to be able to replaceme, I never want to stand in the
way of their growth. And I willbe successful if they can
replace me, in part andultimately in whole. And then I
(55:20):
can focus on a higher valueinitiative to provide further
growth yet for our whole groupto kind of continue to ascend
upon.
Mordecai Rosenberg (55:37):
Look, if you want to ever be able to go on
vacation for a week, with yourwife, your family and not have
to, check email. The only way todo that is to set up your team
to be able to replace you,right? And maybe it's just for
that week, but they have to haveall of those capabilities that
they can stand in and do whatyou do.
Dan Sacks (55:59):
It takes time to accomplish, it really does.
Because, I mean, I was a bigmicromanager from the beginning.
I still have certain issues withletting somebody else take
accountability for myresponsibility, and not have
anxiety that it could end badly.
I think that kind of philosophy,this philosophy does create the
(56:28):
most productive, fulfilling workenvironment, that the best
people should seek.
Mordecai Rosenberg (56:43):
Yep. What else would someone want?
Dan Sacks (56:46):
That's where it starts with energy, it starts
with passion, it starts withunderstanding. And I've had
people that always think thegrass is greener on the other
side, and sometimes you justhave to let folks learn their
own way. But when you care aboutyour employees as they're an
(57:10):
extended part of my family, I doview that. And I also recognize
that those leading really bigcorporations may have much
larger teams, and it's hard totake such a personal focus to
each one. But by the same token,I think it's the obligation of
(57:31):
the firm. And I think the firmlearns from its leaders, how to
cultivate and grow talent. Ithink I learned that from Steve,
your father, and how he attacksbusiness every day, as well as
his own code of ethics, and hisown demeanor towards every
(57:53):
person. And every employee inthe firm. And a lot of that has
shaped my philosophy on on howwe engage with our staff, but
not everyone does it that way.
Mordecai Rosenberg (58:09):
Well, the success of your team speaks for
itself. Dan, I've been nowwatching from a little bit more
of a distance, and I've beenincredibly proud of the results
that you've achieved In terms ofproduction, but also as a leader
and developing as a human being.
So keep up the great work. Andit's been a delight to have you
(58:31):
on the on the podcast. So thankyou.
Dan Sacks (58:35):
You're most welcome.
And I appreciate being with you.
Thanks for having me on.
Mordecai Rosenberg (58:41):
Awesome. All right, Dan, I'll talk to you
soon. Take care.
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