October 5, 2022 • 60 mins
Andrew Dansker has carved out a niche in the origination world, and has used his unique value proposition to create an incredibly strong referral source of business. He walks us through his journey during this episode, as well as discusses that impossible thing for a sales person: work life balance.
TIMESTAMPS:
11:23: How To Align My Interests With the Interests of People I'd Like to Have as Referral Sources
13:06: Understanding What You're Selling
27:32: Growth and Learning Over Time
29:30: What You Do vs What You Do Well
37:39: Making Your Referral Source Look Good
38:39: Work Life Balance
46:41: At What Point Can You Start Setting Limits
51:09: Advice For Newer Salespeople
lenders, market, people, loan, client, equity, selling, deals, screen protectors, year, calls, rates, business, borrower, easy, long, sales, chase, interest rates, debt
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Mordecai Rosenberg (00:16):
Welcome back to the Origination Podcast,
where we speak to the topsalespeople in the multifamily
industry to try to understandwhat separates the top
performers from the rest of thepack. On this episode, I'll be
speaking with Andrew Dansker,Founder and CEO of Dansker
Capital Group. It is verytempting when you start out in
(00:39):
origination or brokerage, in themultifamily industry, to want to
be all things to all people. Youknow, if it's a Class A, B, C,
whatever the location, that youwant to be the solution
provider. However, the bestsalespeople ultimately carve out
a niche. They figure out whattheir unique value proposition
(01:04):
is, and that becomes theircalling card in the market. In
this interview, you'll hearabout how Andrew figured out
what his unique valueproposition was, and how he's
used that to create anincredibly strong referral
source of business. We'll alsotalk about work life balance,
(01:29):
which as a salesperson feelslike it is an impossibility. But
you'll hear how Andrew hascarved out time for his family
and the most importantpriorities in his life. So
without further ado, let's speakwith Andrew. Andrew Dansker,
(01:51):
welcome to the OriginationPodcast, it's a thrill to have
you.
Andrew Dansker (01:54):
Thank you for having me, I appreciate it very
much.
Mordecai Rosenberg (01:58):
So, Andrew, we've talked about a number of
different things, but I'm goingto start the way I like to start
these things, and have you thinkabout an early sales experience
that comes to mind. So it couldbe high school, grade school, it
could be college or aftercollege. When I say your first,
(02:23):
earliest sales experience andmemory of selling something,
does anything come to mind foryou?
Andrew Dansker (02:30):
That's an interesting question. You know,
I was never selling cookies doorto door, never had a lemonade
stand. I didn't do newspapers. Idon't have any good old timey
stories about how I was an eightyear old and created a network
in my neighborhood of lawnmowing services or anything like
that. I think that I was prettyopposed to being in a sales role
(02:56):
when I first became asalesperson. I had always been
on the, here's the track, followthe track, kind of trajectory. I
found myself at a time where Ididn't really know what else to
do, or how to do what I wantedto do. And my first real sales
(03:16):
job of any kind was, here's thephonebook of owner's in
Manhattan, here's your phone,here's your desk. See what
happens.
Mordecai Rosenberg (03:27):
Yeah, and the tracked route, I think you
went to law school. Is that Isthat correct?
Andrew Dansker (03:34):
Yeah, I did.
Mordecai Rosenberg (03:36):
So, how did you find your way from law? You
know, you went to law school,thinking that you wanted to be
an attorney?
Andrew Dansker (03:45):
No, actually. I went to law school thinking I
didn't want to be financiallyindependent. When I was
graduating college, I got adegree in political science and
I looked at jobs with the StateDepartment, CIA, et cetera, all
kinds of interesting Think Tankjobs. And my father said to me,
(04:11):
either you can go to law schooland I'll cover the cost, or you
can graduate and I'll supportyou emotionally in whatever you
do, but you'll be on your ownfinancially the day after
graduation. That to me was avery easy thing to come up with
there, the decision to go to lawschool.
Mordecai Rosenberg (04:29):
Yeah.
Andrew Dansker (04:30):
I never really wanted to be an attorney. No, I
can't say that I did.
Mordecai Rosenberg (04:34):
Got it. So you get out of law school and
you say, I know what I want todo. I want to go into commercial
real estate sales. What's thepath?
Andrew Dansker (04:44):
Yeah, not that straightforward a path there
either. I got out of law school,I started to sit through the
course to take the bar exam. Ihad accepted a position at Fried
Frank to practice law. That wasthe year of the post recession,
(05:05):
I guess it would be called, thatwas 2009. So, what happened in
the in the law business, you gothired the year before. So I was
hired into a big class at FriedFrank during good times, and
then bad times came and theytold our whole class, "we'll pay
you half salary to go away for ayear and remain available to us
for next year." I sat in theclass and was starting to study
(05:31):
for the bar, or I should say wasstarting to be told to study for
the bar, I can't say that Ireally did much studying. I just
sat there and thought, I don'twant this job. I don't even want
a year off paid to come back tothis job. I don't want this
hanging over me. I just didthree years of what I was told
to do, and I don't want to signup for another X number of years
(05:53):
of what I'm being told to do. Iwant to go figure out what I
want to do. So, I was veryfortunate to get connected to an
owner operator, who was in themiddle, or had just commenced a
really big project. He had justpurchased the largest office
building in the state ofConnecticut and was undergoing a
full rehab and re-tenanting. Wegot along, and I agreed to go
(06:17):
work with him. It wasn't reallypart of a plan. It just kind of
came together.
Mordecai Rosenberg (06:24):
Got it. Is that the first time you get the
computer and the phone?
Andrew Dansker (06:33):
Yeah, so I spent a couple years with him, I did
rehab work with him all over thecountry. I had a great time and
I learned a tremendous amount.
And after a few years of that, Idecided it was time to park
myself more squarely at home inNew York instead of flying
around every week to differentproperties. I started to look
for a different development job,thinking that's the track I
(06:55):
wanted to stay on, orredevelopment I guess that was.
I couldn't find what I wantedand I didn't really know how to
find what I wanted, I don'tthink I had yet the skills to go
out and find what I wanted. Iwent to a friend and asked him
for help. He was a mortgagebroker, still is a mortgage
broker, and he said, "I'm notgoing to help you find any
(07:17):
development jobs, because Ithink you should come work for
me." And I thought about it andI didn't have any development
jobs that I wanted, I didn'thave any other good ideas, and I
didn't think I wanted to dosales. But I figured, you know,
sort of like the actor / actresswho's waiting tables while they
wait for their big break, Ifigured I'll make some loans
(07:40):
while I wait for my bigdevelopment deal to come along.
So that's when I sat down andstarted making calls.
Mordecai Rosenberg (07:48):
Yeah. And which firm was that?
Andrew Dansker (07:52):
Cooper Horowitz.
Mordecai Rosenberg (07:53):
All right.
And that was focused onmortgages?
Andrew Dansker (07:54):
Absolutely.
That's right.
Mordecai Rosenberg (07:56):
So they give you a computer and a phone and
say all right, have at it? Whatdoes that look like? Who are you
calling? How do you know whatsay what?
Andrew Dansker (08:14):
Yeah, it was what I think of as an old
fashioned New York brokeragemoment of here's your list and
your desk and your phone, gofigure it out. I didn't know the
answer to that question.Iliterally had a book, I think it
was called Sanders, this bigblue book that shows every block
(08:36):
and lot in New York City, andwho the owner is, phone number,
etc. I just started going downthe list, calling people and
saying, I'm a mortgage broker,do you need a mortgage? Which
may not be the most effectivesales strategy but at that
point, I didn't know any betterand just figured I would jump in
(08:59):
with both feet. So I did.
Mordecai Rosenberg (09:04):
What year is that?
Andrew Dansker (09:07):
That's late 2011.
Mordecai Rosenberg (09:10):
Okay, so you start by calling saying, "do you
need a mortgage?" How does thatpitch land? Is there a point
where you figured out okay, nowI know what to say when someone
(09:32):
phone picks up the phone?
Andrew Dansker (09:33):
Yeah, it was an interesting trajectory for me,
because I don't think that whatwas happening was immediately
clear to me at that time.
Although in retrospect, it'svery clear and really informs my
business model today. But atthat time, in addition to that
work, which to answer yourquestion, it was about one in
100 calls would lead to tosomeone who said "yes, I'm
(09:54):
interested in having aconversation" and then some
smaller percentage of that thatactually went anywhere. But what
I did simultaneously was Istarted going to everyone I had
ever met and saying, "do youknow anyone in the real estate
business?" and going to events,and so on and so forth. And I
was very fortunate, my fatheractually introduced me to Shimon
(10:15):
Shkury, who at that time hadrelatively recently started
Ariel Property Advisors, anddidn't have a capital markets
division yet. And he said to me,yes, we need someone to help our
clients with loans. And we'llgive you a shot and see how that
goes. Of course, I was relyingon the expertise of the shop I
(10:36):
was working at, I wasn't the onebringing the knowledge to the
table, I was really making theconnection. But what ended up
happening was that I started todo work with Ariel, and with
their clients, and that was farmore effective and efficient
than calling people all day whodidn't want to talk to me.
Mordecai Rosenberg (10:58):
Got it. So this showed you the the strength
of a warm intro.
Andrew Dansker (11:05):
A warm intro, and I think also the strength of
a good referral.
Mordecai Rosenberg (11:11):
A good referral. So the thing about
referrals is that you need toalign yourself with the referral
source. So how do you take thatstrategy forward?
Andrew Dansker (11:23):
Yeah, so the question you're asking is a
question that I spent about fiveyears even arriving at that
question. Maybe I'm not thequickest mortgage broker in the
business. So it took me a fewyears to even figure out the
question. And then it took mesome more time to figure out the
(11:47):
answer. And I think that wheremy business really began to come
together was when I had figuredout that question, and then
figured out a good answer.
Which, for me, was figuring outhow do I align my interests with
the interests of the people I'dlike to have as referral
sources? And how do Iunderstand, in my case primarily
(12:07):
sales brokers. What they needfrom their business and their
client, and how I can help themachieve that as part of the
mortgage process.
Mordecai Rosenberg (12:24):
That's great. You want to figure out
how to be a hero to theirclients. How to be a hero to
them. Or maybe the best way tosay this, you want to enable the
sales broker to be a hero totheir client through your
services.
Andrew Dansker (12:42):
Absolutely.
Mordecai Rosenberg (12:44):
So how do you do that? What's the thing
that you come upon it as anidea? Was there any kind of new
thing that you realized or wasit how you were presenting
yourself to them?
Andrew Dansker (13:09):
I think that there's a multi part answer
there. Part of it, for me, wasabout really understanding what
I'm selling as a mortgagebroker. I think that there is a
group of mortgage brokers thatare selling a process. You want
(13:29):
to be able to tell yourinvestors that you hired a high
profile shop and that they ran aprocess, and that you can't be
held responsible for anymistakes, because you hired the
right people. I'm not reallyselling that to that kind of
institutional client. There areother shops that do a tremendous
amount of volume, I thinkthey're selling leverage, right?
We're gonna get a better dealthan you're gonna get on your
(13:52):
own because we do so muchbusiness with such and such a
institution. I'm not really bigenough that I'm doing that.
Occasionally, maybe, butgenerally not really. So what am
I really selling at the end ofthe day? I'm selling
information. What does thatmean? To me, that means you're
maybe a new entrant to the realestate marketplace, or you're a
(14:12):
professional in retail, andyou're buying your first resi,
or you're very experienced inBoston, and you've just arrived
in New York. For whateverreason, you need information,
and that's really what I'veconceived myself as brokering.
And understanding that and beingable to convey that to the sales
(14:33):
broker helps them understand whoto send to me and helps me
achieve a very high level ofsuccess for them and their
clients, as opposed to thefrustrating experience of
repeated introductions thatdon't go anywhere. That, I
think, was a turning point.
Because I definitely did a lotof work with some New York teams
(14:53):
that were working withprofessional New York investors,
and I had the same frustratingconversations over and over
again, where they would make theintroduction, I would speak to
the client, and the client wouldsay, I have a direct
relationship with yourcommunity. Signature, Dime, at
that time, maybe Astoria,investors, customers, and I'd be
happy to hire you if you canfind me something better. Which,
(15:19):
once you blanketed the marketwith direct relationships,
because you're a repeat player,it's very hard to do. As a sales
broker making that intro, youcan start to feel frustrated or
unsuccessful in that intro. Sounderstanding that that was the
wrong client and that was thewrong target was critical.
Besides that, really being ableto present clearly the value
(15:42):
proposition to the referralsource themselves was critical.
So beyond, here's what I can dofor your client. And here is who
the right client is, what's thebenefit to you as a sales broker
for doing this work with me. Inmy mind, one of the primary
answers is simply that, as asales broker, your transactions
(16:06):
are large and infrequent and youneed value add to give to your
clients to maintain and deepenyour relationships to prepare
for those big moments. And thatcan be recurring updates on your
valuation of the property, itcan be referrals for legal
services, it can be an update inthe leasing market to make sure
(16:27):
your client is maximizing theirincome, it can be a referral to
someone for tax advice. I thinkin this case, all those clients
are also financing, and knowingthat you can add value to their
ongoing business throughfinancing, keeping the
conversation tied to you andalive, is a critical value add
to that referral source inparticular.
Mordecai Rosenberg (16:54):
That's so interesting. So the first point
that you made is also I feelvery critical. It's when you
talk about referrals. So peoplethink, introduce me to
Blackstone. That sounds greatbut if Blackstone doesn't need
you, then it's not valuable, itdoesn't set you up for success
(17:19):
with Blackstone, but also yourreferral source.
Andrew Dansker (17:20):
Exactly right. I mean, I don't want to meet
Blackstone. I mean, if they'relistening, and they'd like to
hire me sure, I'd love to chat.
But as a general rule, I don'twant to meet Blackstone, and I
don't want to meet Cornado, andI don't want to meet Related.
I'm not selling what they'rebuying so I'm not doing any good
for myself, for them, or theperson that puts us together to
(17:43):
have that meeting. I would liketo meet the person who owns
three buildings and is buying afourth one, and it's vacant, and
their lender doesn't do vacantdeals, and they need to know how
to get a vacant deal done. Iknow how to do that, I know how
to do it really well. I know howto do it with people who will
deliver at a good price. Andthat's what I sell, that
(18:03):
information and the ability tofacilitate that transaction.
Mordecai Rosenberg (18:11):
Yeah, I've seen a lot of times with sales
strategy, a team will say, allright, let's look at the top 50
owners, and let's figure out howto how to get to them. And if
you have a product that youthink is different and the
(18:33):
service is differentiated andwould be appealing to them, then
great. But another push is tolook at who's already doing
business with us, who are thepeople that we serve best, who
comes to us and loves workingwith us, and we provide them a
unique service and identifythem. So I think what you did
(18:55):
there was to help the salesbroker know when they should be
thinking of you.
Andrew Dansker (19:06):
Absolutely, and I think it was critical for my
own business and the developmentof my team's business because I
think one of the places where somany mortgage brokers in
particular get stuck is like yousaid, you're chasing the wrong
thing. You're chasing thebiggest, the most obvious, the
sexiest, the highest profiletarget. And you can tell
(19:31):
yourself that a bigger paycheckis the same amount of work as a
small paycheck and that youshould therefore go after the
biggest thing you can find inthe market, etc. But, you know,
I just don't look at it thatway. I look at it as really
focusing in on what am I reallyoffering, and who wants that?
Mordecai Rosenberg (19:49):
Right. And then the second point about
thinking about being ofconsistent value to your
clients. Because whether or notyou're a sales broker or your
mortgage broker, it's still aperiodic or episodic
(20:10):
relationship.
Andrew Dansker (20:12):
Absolutely.
Mordecai Rosenberg (20:12):
Well, let's come back to that. I want to
continue getting back to yourstory. It sounds like a pretty
good niche that you found withAriel Property Advisors. So from
(20:38):
there did you go to Marcus?
Andrew Dansker (20:42):
Yeah. That's exactly right, I moved to
Marcus. I was given anopportunity that I felt I
couldn't turn down, which was topartner with a team that is
still in operation called NewYork Multifamily, which was at
the time run by Peter Von DerAhe, Joe Koicim. Shaun Riney
(21:03):
became a principal member ofthat team and I was given the
opportunity to essentiallyhandle their business. And I
think that, in retrospect, it'sironic, but the doors that
opened up were the exactopposite of the doors that I
thought it was opening up. So Ithought that was the key into
(21:25):
the introductions to the highprofile repeat big players in
New York, who I met with thatwere buying buildings from them.
And then discovered that I wasselling a product but they
didn't want to buy. So it wasvery interesting in that where I
thought that was taking me wasnot where it took me at all,
(21:47):
which may be, could be the themefor the career trajectory, we're
tracing, right, I thought I wasgoing one way it turned out, it
was a winding road, not astraight road. It's going a
different way the whole time.
But that took me to Marcus andMillichap. And from there was
really where that strategy andthat understanding that I just
(22:10):
described came into focus forme, in part really in contrast
with what I was actually tryingto do.
Mordecai Rosenberg (22:19):
Got it. So it sounds like you ran into some
of the same challenges of, atthe end of the day, do these
people actually need thatservice or not? Right, the
institution?
Andrew Dansker (22:36):
Absolutely.
Mordecai Rosenberg (22:36):
Yeah. So, from there, you end up starting
your own shop?
Andrew Dansker (22:46):
Yeah, and for you, it was a short partial
sentence when you said fromthere, but for me, that was a
long eight years of figuring outwhat I was doing, understanding
my product, understanding who Iwas able to sell it to
successfully, understanding howto source those clients to to
sell it to and understanding thevalue of those relationships.
(23:07):
But yes, from there, I startedmy own company.
Mordecai Rosenberg (23:09):
Well, let's delve into the 8 years a bit. So
what did you get as far as yourbusiness strategy? You said that
Andrew Dansker (23:16):
Sure. So I think to start off with, I started
you expected one thing and thedoors that opened ended up being
with the same business plan aseveryone else at that time,
different. As far as how yourbusiness plan evolves over the
course of that eight years, whatdoes that look like?
(23:41):
let's call it 2013. Benchmark isbuying a lot of buildings, SLATE
is buying a lot of buildings,there's a lot of guys out there
buying buildings in New York,renovating them, cleaning them
up, selling them, and I aspiredto do business with them. That's
(24:02):
what I thought I was doing. As Igot farther along, I discovered
they know the same people that Iknow, in terms of lending
relationships, and the peoplewho are hiring me are the people
who say, I've just started myfund. I've just gotten to New
York, I've just switched productclasses, or I'm selling my
product in New York, I'm buyingin Florida. I don't know anyone
(24:24):
in Florida. So there wasdefinitely a long process for me
of trial. I don't want to saytrial and error or trial and
failure, but I'm trying to dosomething right, which was to go
after those big name repeatplayers. And discovering where I
was actually succeeding and whatthat meant and using that
(24:47):
feedback to define who my clientwas and what I was actually
selling. So that for me is nowin hindsight incapsulated very
succinctly but was actually amulti year process of trial,
failure, why isn't it working?
What is working? That took yearsto come into clarity for me. And
while I was there, I had gone into do the work for New York
(25:11):
Multifamily, but I ended updoing work for teams across the
company. I did work with teams,not just other teams in New
York, but also Brooklyn, NewJersey, Boston, Florida offices.
I was beginning to understandwhat the real mindset of those
brokers because I was workingwith them all the time. I was in
(25:33):
the same company with them andunderstanding their needs and
understanding how to tailor myquasi product offering, my value
add proposition to their needs.
It was, again, a multi yearprocess of working with all
(25:53):
those teams and understandingtheir businesses and
understanding how they wereunderstanding their businesses.
So like I said, maybe I'm justnot the fastest learner, but it
took me about eight years.
Mordecai Rosenberg (26:06):
Yeah well, I wouldn't consider myself the
fastest learner either. I feellike a lot of the smartest
people are not the fastestlearners.
Andrew Dansker (26:17):
Listen, I think part of the challenge is that
there's no great roadmap, nobook on how to build a great,
successful middle marketmortgage brokerage company. Or
mortgage brokerage business, ifyou're inside another company.
There's no roadmap, it's notlike school where there's a
syllabus, and these are thebooks you read, and then you get
all the information and drawyour own conclusions, but here's
(26:40):
the map. My experience was, ittakes time in real life to even
understand the question you'resupposed to be asking, let alone
what the answer is.
Mordecai Rosenberg (26:51):
Yeah. Right.
And I guess that question isreally, what value am I creating
and for who?
Andrew Dansker (27:01):
Yeah, absolutely.
Mordecai Rosenberg (27:05):
So if you think about what your elevator
pitch was at the beginning ofthose eight years, and then you
think about what your elevatorpitch was at the end of them,
what would you say had changed?
As far as your self perceptionand and how you explained the
value that you added? What didyou realize by the end of those
(27:30):
eight years?
Andrew Dansker (27:34):
180. I think that my pitch at the beginning
was really narcissistic in a wayof, you should hire me because
I'm smart, and hardworking, andI want your business. And I left
with a totally outward facingpitch which was, you should hire
(27:56):
me because I know what you needto know and I can help you grow
your business. Totally 180reversal on that pitch.
Mordecai Rosenberg (28:04):
Yeah. I can help you grow your business. And
the you is the sales broker, orthe end client?
Andrew Dansker (28:11):
Either one, either the sales broker or the
end client. And I don't justwork with sales brokers, I have
a lot of great attorneys thatsend me clients, and I've done
work with accountants, and so onand so forth. And there are
multiple other professionals inthat group of referral sources.
(28:31):
But yes, it is both the referralsource and the end client to
whom I feel very comfortablesaying, I have a very clear
recipe and great track recordfor helping you grow your
business, together with you. Andthat's a total 180 from where I
started, which was, hire mebecause I want to make a living
(28:52):
and I don't really know whatelse I'm doing.
Mordecai Rosenberg (28:55):
Right. And I don't want to go back to a law
firm. So if you're sitting witha client, and you're saying I
know how to make you successful.
What is it? You're sitting witha client and they're like, well,
I've worked with lots of othermortgage brokers I know the
(29:15):
drill. What are you saying thatto explain that no, this is why
Dansker is different than othergroups that you've worked with?
Andrew Dansker (29:30):
That's a good question. I think that one of
the things I've found in ourbusiness and in sales in
general, is that one of thehardest things to do is to turn
something down. I think that asales broker, or mortgage
broker, or someone in sales, atleast in my experience in the
real estate business, reallyoften struggles with saying, no,
(29:53):
this isn't for me. And I thinkthat what that leads to a lot of
the time is people taking onthings they really shouldn't
take on. Andthen struggling toget them done, and then ending
up with a bad result for theclient. Whereas one of the
things that we do, and I thinkwe do well, is understanding
(30:15):
what we do and what we do well,and being really comfortable
saying to people, yes, I canhelp you with that, and I know
how to solve the question you'reasking, or the problem you're
presenting. Or no, I don't, andI'm willing to investigate for
you, if that's what you want todo. Or, alternatively, I'm not
willing to investigate. But notstarting off with the answer is
(30:40):
yes to anything you ask for, andthen I'll go figure it out after
you leave my office. I thinkthat coming from that position
of confidence in our ability togenerate a consistent business,
and therefore, our willingnessto focus on the things that
we're good at, reallydistinguishes us in a way that
meaningfully changes the resultfor the client. Because there's
(31:04):
a total difference, would you goto a dentist that was going to
put you out with the gas and youlay there, and then he opens the
dental textbook and figures outhow to drill your cavity? I
mean, that's a terrifyingprospect. Which should be no
less terrifying if you tellsomeone, yes, I have a $20
million transaction, and I havea million dollar hard deposit
(31:24):
and you leave their office, andthen they're Googling lenders.
That's scary and should be scaryand that's the that's the thing
that happens. So I think that'ssomething that really
distinguishes us is beingcomfortable saying, I know the
answer to this question, or Idon't, and be honest about that.
Mordecai Rosenberg (31:48):
Yeah. I imagine there's more to what
you're saying also, because iftheir alternative is an upstart,
fly by the night firm, that'sone thing. If they're if their
(32:09):
alternative is CBRE or JLL, or Idon't know...
Andrew Dansker (32:15):
Well, I disagree with your premise a little bit,
because I don't think that mostmortgage companies operate as a
firm, which does distinguish us.
We, in my firm, shareinformation whereas most firms
operate in a silo where eachbroker is on their own. And
that's very different in termsof the quality and quantity of
(32:35):
information available to me andto the brokers in my office. But
I think also the symptom ofinsecurity that I just described
to you is not exclusive to a flyby night firm. There are plenty
(32:59):
of people who work at big,reputable companies, and are
perfectly capable of placing aCMBS loan, or an agency loan,
etc., and really have nobusiness trying to place a
vacant apartment building inDitmas Park. But they will take
the assignment because theydon't have any other assignments
(33:20):
this quarter and they figure howhard could it be? It's an
apartment building. It's vacant.
So I'll just look up the localbanks. That happens all the time
and has nothing to do with thequality of the firm.
Mordecai Rosenberg (33:33):
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I have a
weird question for you. You'vebeen around a lot of investment
sales brokerage teams, Mark atyour multifamily, Marcus, and
you've also been around mortgagebrokerage firms. Do you find
(33:58):
that there's a difference inwillingness to share information
between investment sales brokersand mortgage brokers? And the
reason why I asked you that I'veseen that on the investment
sales side, there's oftentimesan open willingness to share
(34:22):
information. On the other hand,I have experienced what you're
talking about on the mortgageside where it is siloed and
protective. But I'm wondering ifyou've seen any difference, or
if it's the same as it were, ormaybe you haven't seen that
(34:42):
differentiation?
Andrew Dansker (34:45):
That's a good question. I think it depends. I
think that sales brokers aren'texactly walking around to each
other saying, hey, there's a hotbuyer in the market. Here's his
or her phone number in case youhave any listings. But I do
think it depends on theindividual, their reputation and
(35:09):
the culture they've created,either in their company or in
the community. I had a call lastnight, actually, with a friend
of mine who works at JLL. And Isaid, we're looking at a deal,
it's a little outside our depthand I'd love your feedback to
see if this is an assignment weshould take on. If you have any
suggestions for me, I'm pokingaround to figure out, can I take
(35:30):
this assignment on withconfidence? Which goes back to
something I described about us.
But the point here is, I feelvery comfortable calling him and
asking him that question. Andwhen he calls me, I answer the
same question. And I maintainthat network throughout our
industry to make sure I have thebest information available, and
I don't find the mortgagebrokerage community to be any
(35:51):
more or less protective ofinformation than in the other.
Mordecai Rosenberg (35:58):
Yeah. You're clearly not like that. You have
that willingness to shareinformation and and learn from
others, from what else ishappening. I think that has
differentiated you, which isgreat.
Andrew Dansker (36:20):
Yeah, and it's a big world out there. I mean,
there's plenty of money foreverybody to make. Some other
guy or woman is trying to make aliving, it's not like if I don't
tell them how to solve theirproblem that their client is
going to just jump into my armsand do the deal with me instead.
I think that's a weird fantasyof a mindset that I just don't
(36:43):
ascribe to. I think there'splenty of business for everyone.
There's no reason why I can'thelp somebody.
Mordecai Rosenberg (36:48):
Yeah, I think one of the big takeaways
that I'm getting from this partof our conversation is, when it
comes to the referrals, a lot ofpeople are just working with
accountants, attorneys or salesbrokers. You think just
(37:11):
announcing that you would liketo be introduced is enough of a
reason, or you say, I'll pay youa referral fee. And that should
be enough. A referral fee that'snice. But if you're going to
embarrass me in front of myfriends, when we do, it's not
worth it.
Andrew Dansker (37:31):
It's not worth it at all.
Mordecai Rosenberg (37:32):
So you need to sell that person and you need
to make them, this referralsource, a hero.
Andrew Dansker (37:39):
I agree with you 100%. I think the referral fee
is the least important factor inthe equation for whether or not
someone sends you a deal. Andsimply announcing that you'd
like a deal distinguishes youfrom absolutely nobody. I think
that where I really focus is,I'm going to make you look good,
I know what I'm doing, I'm notgoing to take on something I
(38:02):
can't do. I'm going to be honestwith your client, I'm going to
be respectful with your client.
And also, if the client comesback and is talking to me about
a sale, I'm going to tell youand not someone else. I don't
pass people's clients around andI have a reputation for
maintaining thatconfidentiality. And that's very
important. There's no way Icould work with 20 different
teams in the same company if Iwas passing their clients back
(38:24):
and forth. So having thereputation for those things and
being able to understand how toadd that value, I agree with
you, far exceeds the value of acouple thousand dollar check.
Mordecai Rosenberg (38:39):
Yeah. So let's shift gears a little bit.
You and I have talked about worklife balance a bit. A lot of
people think about it like havea work life balance, or be a
salesperson. That salespeopleare on call 24/7 and your work
(39:10):
is never done. It could be itcould be 9 or 10 o'clock at
night, there's someone else whoyou could email or reach out to
or find another lead. And I knowyou have two young kids who
clearly you love and veryimportant to you. How do you
handle the work life balance?
Because having little kids isalso a lot of work. So how do
(39:35):
you approach that in terms ofending a day or carving out time
for them, or making space foryour family?
Andrew Dansker (39:52):
I think that's a great question. And I think it's
great that you're even askingthe question, I think a lot of
people don't think about evenasking that question until it's
maybe a little bit too far inthe rearview mirror to make the
right choices. I think that Iknow that this is the most
important thing to me. And, tome, knowing that unequivocally
(40:16):
enables my decision making. I'vebeen very fortunate in an
incredible number of things, notthe least of which is that I
started my career in thisbusiness as a salesperson,
before I had children. And Iworked all the time, I worked at
night, I went to an event 3-4nights a week, sometimes I went
(40:36):
to a breakfast event as well. Iworked 10-12 hours a day.
Besides those events, I went tothe office on Sunday to get
ready for the week. And I reallyused a lot of my downtime to
rest, to be in great shape,mentally and physically, to
excel in the time that I wasworking. So for me, it was a
real cycle of work, recover,work, recover, which you could
(41:00):
make an argument about whetheror not that was healthy. But
either way, that's where I was.
And that enabled me to build abusiness, which I've been very
fortunate to say, has achieved alevel where I'm able to make
some of those distinctions. Itotally recognize that I have
the good fortune of being in aposition to say that I've
(41:21):
concluded based on where I am,that the answer to how much is
not more. And the answer to howmuch for me is enough. If you
need a B plus to get intograduate school, and you're
getting straight A's, you'rewasting your time, you should
get a B plus and do somethingelse. And I feel the same way
about money which is, could Iwork more and get more? Yes, you
(41:45):
are right, I can stay here till10 o'clock at night, I can email
people, I can do all kinds ofthings after hours to add to the
business during the day. I couldwork 24 hours a day. But the
goal is not more, the goal isenough. And I'm very fortunate
to have enough. And I draw the
line at about 5 (42:06):
30 every day, which I know sounds ludicrous in
the city we live in, but atabout 5:30 every day, I go home,
and I see my kids. I certainlywill take a call while I'm
walking home, and that's fine,but by the time I walk through
that door at (42:23):
15, I turn off my phone and put it down next to my
keys. And I don't pick it upagain until my kids are asleep.
The reality of working andhaving kids is that you don't
have a lot of time with themduring the week. That time is
sacrosanct to me, I don't carewho is calling me. With respect
(42:43):
to the head of every majorinvestment firm in New York
City, they could all call me atonce at 6:30 but I'm not picking
up because I have enough forwhat I need. And the rest is for
my kids and my wife. And Irecognize that that's a
privileged position to be thatI'm able to draw that line and I
(43:04):
draw it very firmly.
Mordecai Rosenberg (43:05):
I think what you also realize is, let's say
it's 2-3 hours of time that youspend with your kids. It could
have been that someone calledwhen you're still in the office
and on calls for the for thenext three hours, and then
you've got to call him backafterwards. And that is
(43:27):
perfectly understandable. Thefact that it's a block on your
calendar doesn't mean that it'sa higher priority than the other
stuff that that's important toyou. And the world isn't going
to fall apart. Yes, you need tobe available at a service
Andrew Dansker (43:45):
Yeah, it's okay.
I don't live in a world where ifsession, but everyone knows that
people are busy and calling backa couple hours later is okay.
you don't answer my email in anhour, I think you're ignoring
me. And maybe some people feelthat way if I don't answer them
(44:09):
in an hour. But you know, theother thing I think is needed is
drawing boundaries. The way Ithink about it is, the week has
168 hours in it, and that's truefor you and for the CEO of
American Express. The CEO ofAmerican Express is doing far
more with their week than youare, no offense. I don't know
how busy you are, but I'mguessing they're running a
(44:32):
pretty big company. But they'vegot the same 168 hours that you
do and even if they only need tosleep three hours a night and
they don't eat and they don'tshower, there's still a limit.
So the limits that we place orthe limits that we don't place
are totally arbitrary. And evenif you allow the work to run
into your family life and youtreat your family time as
(44:53):
something that you can overrideif necessary, you're still going
to hit a hard limit somewherewhich is sleep and eat and
shower. Which is going to maxout at 168. So I don't feel that
it's in any way more or lessarbitrary to draw that line at
family time versus basic humanneeds time. And I don't think
(45:17):
that it matters in a way,obviously if you drew it at one
hour a day, at some point, itmatters. But to carve off 90
minutes for your kids is, isdoable and survivable. And the
other thing I think it does isit forces you to be more
efficient, which is to say that,when I get a new client, it's a
(45:38):
smaller transaction, it's a oneoff transaction, it's not
someone I have a long termrelationship with, I share it
with my team. And again, that'sback to that mindset that
there's plenty to go around,which I think it's critical to
continue to maintain but I don'tmind sharing. I'm happy to see
them succeed, I'm happy to seethem make the fee, I don't need
(45:58):
to reach in their pocket onevery deal, or keep every deal
that comes to me for myself, I'drather share. But that also
enables me to focus on the mostefficient use of my time for the
highest value targets.
Mordecai Rosenberg (46:15):
So what would you say though, for
someone who's new, a youngerperson entering in to the
industry? Because, like yousaid, when you're starting out
and all you have is yourcomputer and your phone, you
have to make a name foryourself. You have to get out
there. Do you think that youstill have to do your time?
Andrew Dansker (46:41):
Absolutely.
Mordecai Rosenberg (46:41):
At what point can you start setting
those limits? Is it that you'vegot to do your hard time for
5-10 years, and then you canrelax?
Andrew Dansker (46:53):
I'm not a dues paying guy in the sense that I
feel you need to suffer tosuffer, to pay your dues. I do
think however, there are somebasic mechanics of our business,
(47:16):
which if you understand them,then you understand why you have
to overload your schedule tobegin with, and then that you
then have the ability to dialthat back later on. And I think
the amount of time it takesdepends on how successful you
are ramping up. Becausebasically, what you're doing in
(47:36):
the beginning of your career asa salesperson in many ways is
you're creating a funnel. What Imean by that is you're basically
meeting an incredibly largenumber of people, if you're
doing your job. And you'refiltering through them for
people that you like, that likeyou, that you connect with, that
you see eye to eye with, and towhom you can add value and that
(47:58):
you think can add value to yourbusiness. And that's essentially
what you're doing at thebeginning. And once you have
created that roster of people,which you could call your
network, you can run yourbusiness without really
attending to it in the same wayin the sense of growing it. You
don't need to fill the top ofthat funnel as aggressively.
(48:20):
Even if you add a little bit ata time, once you've established
the baseline of a functioningbusiness, you can dramatically
scale back that those efforts. Iwould say there's somewhere
between 50-100 people that Iwork with regularly either as
clients or referral sources,etc. And I know that from some
(48:41):
of them, I'll see a lot of dealsin a year. From some I'll see
none this year, some next year,and that's okay. But I'm not
ramping up to that number everyyear, they follow along year to
year, some will drop off somenew ones come on, and that's
okay. I think in the beginningof your career, you absolutely
have to fill that as fast as youcan. Once you get to 99, okay,
(49:07):
so then this year, you don't donearly as much you need to add
one more to have a fullcomplement. That's what I think.
Mordecai Rosenberg (49:15):
Yeah.
Getting back to what you weresaying at the beginning, you
have to know what the value isthat you're providing. Your
sales calls have a much morerifle shot approach because
you're here, you're gonna knowwithin 10-15 minutes if this is
(49:36):
someone who is a good client forAnd if
you're a good match for them. Atyou.
Andrew Dansker (49:44):
Absolutely.
the beginning, it's just ascattershot, you're going after
every one and you're trying tofigure out, where am I going to
get an in? Also, at thebeginning, people will just take
a flyer at something that theyhave no experience with, you
know that vacated industrialbuilding with zoning issues and
(50:07):
environmental problems like oh,yeah, sure I could do that. And
then they try to figure it out.
Maybe sometimes if that's theonly shot you have, you have to
spend all your time trying tocut your teeth on it. But you
have to get to the point whereyou have a track record, and
track record will give youconfidence, it'll make you
better at selling. And so thosefirst few years, I think your
(50:31):
goal is to develop a trackrecord.
I agree with you100%. I think that track record
helps you define what you'reselling, helps you get the
experience to sell properly. Imean, I think an experienced
person who's gonna hire you cansmell that you've never done a
deal before, if that's the case,and you've got to sell around
(50:51):
that to begin, which is fine. Ithink you can sell around that,
especially if you're with astrong company, and you can lean
on that reputation. But I agreewith what you said, 100%. It's
about reps at the beginning, youjust need to get your reps in,
it doesn't matter what it is.
Mordecai Rosenberg (51:11):
The reality is that when you're 25, you have
energy, you can work untill 11at night, and still be back at
it. There were years when I wasin sales that I was in the
office every night untill 11-12at night, and back in at 8 in
the morning. Today, I don'tthink I could do that
(51:33):
sustainably. So you wish therewas something that you could
tell a newer salesperson, somekind of silver bullets, stick to
this course. What would you sayto someone who's just starting
out or f they've been in for afew months? It's a hall at the
(51:58):
beginning?
Andrew Dansker (52:00):
It is. I boil it down for the people I hired to
two things. One of them isfollow the business plan and
don't give up. And that's it.
Obviously, you need to be in aplace where you understand what
the business plan is, and you'vebeen given a good business plan
which functions. But assumingthat to be true, it's purely
about following the plan and notgiving up. Everyone I see that
(52:23):
fails, sales broker or mortgagebroker, either they're not doing
what the successful person orcompany has told them to do,
they've decided they've gottheir own strategy, or they
stopped doing it. I think itreally boils down to those two
things.
Mordecai Rosenberg (52:46):
Scott Adams wrote a book, How to Fail at
Almost Everything and StillSucceed. He says in there that
he doesn't believe in goals, hebelieves in processes. For
example, if you have a goal oflosing 20 pounds and you lose 20
(53:08):
pounds, now what? Where do yougo? Where do you go from there?
And what if you don't hit thatgoal? Now you feel like a
failure and you're not going totry again? But the process is
alright, every day, I am goingto put on my gym clothes, and
that's the starting point. Youcould do that. Once you have
(53:31):
your gym clothes on, you'reprobably going to go out the
door and do something.
Andrew Dansker (53:36):
Yeah, I agree with that 100%. When I talk to
my team about building theirbusiness plans, I always tell
them the same thing. I can'ttell you the number of people
I've hired who have told me theywant to make a million dollars a
year. And that's great. And youcan back that into how much you
need to make every month andevery week and how much you do
this and that. But at the end ofthe day, what you need on your
business plan are action items.
I'm going to sit down at 9:01,I'm going to make 100 outbound
(54:00):
calls, and then I'm going to getup and have lunch, and that's
it. That's the plan. That's abusiness plan. I'm going to make
$10,000 a day, to me is not aplan.
Mordecai Rosenberg (54:15):
Yeah. And maybe that comes back to the
same boundaries, becausesometimes with that work life
balance, you have to makeboundaries at work. Because
especially once you startgetting deals, now you can just
spend all day managing yourdeals. And you're not making the
outbound calls. When I wasmanaging a sales team, we had a
(54:38):
thing where I think it was 9-11in the morning, we were all
going to just turn offcomputers, not take our calls,
and just hit the phones. Thenafter 11, we get to managing
whatever the fires were of theday, but you've got to carve out
that boundary also.
Andrew Dansker (55:00):
I agree with you, absolutely. I think that I
see it every time with newhires. They come in, they're not
making any money, yet they buildup their network a little bit,
they get some leads, they startclosing some deals, they stopped
originating, the deals closed,and all of a sudden, they have
an empty pipeline again, andtheir income at the beginning is
very wavy. And basically, forme, I try to get ahead of it,
(55:25):
although it's a challenge, Ithink, because it's a skill set
to manage those two thingstogether. But I would say the
sales coaching I'm doing foreverybody who's about a year to
18 months in is how to overcomethat wavy income and flatten it
out. Yeah, once you figured outhow to get the deals, how do you
(55:46):
get the deals while you're doingdeals? And then you can start
thinking about how do you getmore and bigger and more
efficient, etc. But that's a bigchallenge.
Mordecai Rosenberg (55:55):
Yeah. So as we finish up, I want to ask you
our last question. If I askedyou to fill in the blanks, you
see that most salespeople do X,but really they should be doing
Y, what's a mistake that you seea lot of a lot of sales guys
Andrew Dansker (56:26):
I think I do have an answer to that. I built
a very specific business, whichis that I personally close one
to two loans a week and have formore than half a decade. Yeah,
making? Something that to youit's so clear that that you're
six years, I've been running oneto two loans every single week,
missing the mark, this is whatyou should be doing? Anything
no exceptions. There areabsolutely zero loans among that
(56:47):
list that would make the coverof the Real Deal, Real Estate
Weekly, New York Real EstateJournal, not a single one. To
me, that doesn't bother me atall. I think a lot of people are
into what I call whale hunting.
They want the big stuff, theywant the sexy stuff, they want
the cover page stuff, they wantthe stuff to tell their friends
(57:09):
and family about. Nobody caresabout the work I'm doing. Nobody
was writing an article about it.
come to mind?
Nobody wants to hear about it ata cocktail party. I finance a 10
unit apartment building and astory that nobody cares. And
that's fine. The person who'sborrowing the money cares. But
(57:32):
my business is totally built onsingles and doubles. How do I
consistently produce goodresults for my clients and my
referral sources over and overagain. And I see a lot of people
attracted to the biggest name,the biggest deal, the biggest
paycheck. And I just I thinkthat's a mistake. Personally, I
Mordecai Rosenberg (57:54):
Right, and sometimes it actually does die.
don't want one $1 millionpaycheck every year. I don't
have the intestinal fortitude todo that. You've been in this
business for a long time aswell, right? Every deal dies at
least three times before itcloses. And if that's your one
paycheck for the year, you wantto throw up and pass out at the
Andrew Dansker (58:14):
Yeah, and also it does die sometimes, too,
same time when the client callsyou up and says, I'm not signing
this.
which makes for a rough year, ifthat's your only deal. I want to
be in the position of I havethree other deals to close this
(58:35):
week. And if you don't want tosign it, don't sign it. I don't
know what to tell you. I mean,it's a bank, they don't care
that you don't like the fontthat the loan docs are using, or
whatever you come up with.
There's a certain point in whichyou have to detach from that.
And the ability to detach, Ithink, is part of finding your
own center of gravity and beingable to survive long term, and
(58:58):
to get out of that emotionalroller coaster.
Mordecai Rosenberg (59:03):
I love it.
So Andrew, how can people findyou if they want to get a hold
of you for a loan or ajob?What's the best way to get
in touch?
Andrew Dansker (59:11):
I appreciate that. For a loan or a job, you
can find me atadansker@danskergroup.com.
That's D-A-N-S-K-E-R. And youcan email me directly. If you
need a loan, I might do it orone of my team might do it. If
you want to get hired, we havesomeone full time who's in
charge of hiring and training.
We were very hands on in thatdepartment, so we have a full
(59:33):
time person whose job it is justto make sure that our new
recruits succeed, which we havea great track record with,
thankfully. And I'd love to hearfrom anybody.
Mordecai Rosenberg (59:46):
Andrew, thank you so much for your time,
this has been delightful andwe'll be in touch.
Andrew Dansker (59:51):
Thanks very much.
Mordecai Rosenberg (59:53):
All right.
Thanks, Andrew. Take care.
Welcome back to the Origination Podcast,
where we speak to the topsalespeople in the multifamily
industry to try to understandwhat separates the top
performers from the rest of thepack. On this episode, I'll be
speaking with Andrew Dansker,Founder and CEO of Dansker
Capital Group. It is verytempting when you start out in
(00:39):
origination or brokerage, in themultifamily industry, to want to
be all things to all people. Youknow, if it's a Class A, B, C,
whatever the location, that youwant to be the solution
provider. However, the bestsalespeople ultimately carve out
a niche. They figure out whattheir unique value proposition
(01:04):
is, and that becomes theircalling card in the market. In
this interview, you'll hearabout how Andrew figured out
what his unique valueproposition was, and how he's
used that to create anincredibly strong referral
source of business. We'll alsotalk about work life balance,
(01:29):
which as a salesperson feelslike it is an impossibility. But
you'll hear how Andrew hascarved out time for his family
and the most importantpriorities in his life. So
without further ado, let's speakwith Andrew. Andrew Dansker,
(01:51):
welcome to the OriginationPodcast, it's a thrill to have
you.
Andrew Dansker (01:54):
Thank you for having me, I appreciate it very
much.
Mordecai Rosenberg (01:58):
So, Andrew, we've talked about a number of
different things, but I'm goingto start the way I like to start
these things, and have you thinkabout an early sales experience
that comes to mind. So it couldbe high school, grade school, it
could be college or aftercollege. When I say your first,
(02:23):
earliest sales experience andmemory of selling something,
does anything come to mind foryou?
Andrew Dansker (02:30):
That's an interesting question. You know,
I was never selling cookies doorto door, never had a lemonade
stand. I didn't do newspapers. Idon't have any good old timey
stories about how I was an eightyear old and created a network
in my neighborhood of lawnmowing services or anything like
that. I think that I was prettyopposed to being in a sales role
(02:56):
when I first became asalesperson. I had always been
on the, here's the track, followthe track, kind of trajectory. I
found myself at a time where Ididn't really know what else to
do, or how to do what I wantedto do. And my first real sales
(03:16):
job of any kind was, here's thephonebook of owner's in
Manhattan, here's your phone,here's your desk. See what
happens.
Mordecai Rosenberg (03:27):
Yeah, and the tracked route, I think you
went to law school. Is that Isthat correct?
Andrew Dansker (03:34):
Yeah, I did.
Mordecai Rosenberg (03:36):
So, how did you find your way from law? You
know, you went to law school,thinking that you wanted to be
an attorney?
Andrew Dansker (03:45):
No, actually. I went to law school thinking I
didn't want to be financiallyindependent. When I was
graduating college, I got adegree in political science and
I looked at jobs with the StateDepartment, CIA, et cetera, all
kinds of interesting Think Tankjobs. And my father said to me,
(04:11):
either you can go to law schooland I'll cover the cost, or you
can graduate and I'll supportyou emotionally in whatever you
do, but you'll be on your ownfinancially the day after
graduation. That to me was avery easy thing to come up with
there, the decision to go to lawschool.
Mordecai Rosenberg (04:29):
Yeah.
Andrew Dansker (04:30):
I never really wanted to be an attorney. No, I
can't say that I did.
Mordecai Rosenberg (04:34):
Got it. So you get out of law school and
you say, I know what I want todo. I want to go into commercial
real estate sales. What's thepath?
Andrew Dansker (04:44):
Yeah, not that straightforward a path there
either. I got out of law school,I started to sit through the
course to take the bar exam. Ihad accepted a position at Fried
Frank to practice law. That wasthe year of the post recession,
(05:05):
I guess it would be called, thatwas 2009. So, what happened in
the in the law business, you gothired the year before. So I was
hired into a big class at FriedFrank during good times, and
then bad times came and theytold our whole class, "we'll pay
you half salary to go away for ayear and remain available to us
for next year." I sat in theclass and was starting to study
(05:31):
for the bar, or I should say wasstarting to be told to study for
the bar, I can't say that Ireally did much studying. I just
sat there and thought, I don'twant this job. I don't even want
a year off paid to come back tothis job. I don't want this
hanging over me. I just didthree years of what I was told
to do, and I don't want to signup for another X number of years
(05:53):
of what I'm being told to do. Iwant to go figure out what I
want to do. So, I was veryfortunate to get connected to an
owner operator, who was in themiddle, or had just commenced a
really big project. He had justpurchased the largest office
building in the state ofConnecticut and was undergoing a
full rehab and re-tenanting. Wegot along, and I agreed to go
(06:17):
work with him. It wasn't reallypart of a plan. It just kind of
came together.
Mordecai Rosenberg (06:24):
Got it. Is that the first time you get the
computer and the phone?
Andrew Dansker (06:33):
Yeah, so I spent a couple years with him, I did
rehab work with him all over thecountry. I had a great time and
I learned a tremendous amount.
And after a few years of that, Idecided it was time to park
myself more squarely at home inNew York instead of flying
around every week to differentproperties. I started to look
for a different development job,thinking that's the track I
(06:55):
wanted to stay on, orredevelopment I guess that was.
I couldn't find what I wantedand I didn't really know how to
find what I wanted, I don'tthink I had yet the skills to go
out and find what I wanted. Iwent to a friend and asked him
for help. He was a mortgagebroker, still is a mortgage
broker, and he said, "I'm notgoing to help you find any
(07:17):
development jobs, because Ithink you should come work for
me." And I thought about it andI didn't have any development
jobs that I wanted, I didn'thave any other good ideas, and I
didn't think I wanted to dosales. But I figured, you know,
sort of like the actor / actresswho's waiting tables while they
wait for their big break, Ifigured I'll make some loans
(07:40):
while I wait for my bigdevelopment deal to come along.
So that's when I sat down andstarted making calls.
Mordecai Rosenberg (07:48):
Yeah. And which firm was that?
Andrew Dansker (07:52):
Cooper Horowitz.
Mordecai Rosenberg (07:53):
All right.
And that was focused onmortgages?
Andrew Dansker (07:54):
Absolutely.
That's right.
Mordecai Rosenberg (07:56):
So they give you a computer and a phone and
say all right, have at it? Whatdoes that look like? Who are you
calling? How do you know whatsay what?
Andrew Dansker (08:14):
Yeah, it was what I think of as an old
fashioned New York brokeragemoment of here's your list and
your desk and your phone, gofigure it out. I didn't know the
answer to that question.Iliterally had a book, I think it
was called Sanders, this bigblue book that shows every block
(08:36):
and lot in New York City, andwho the owner is, phone number,
etc. I just started going downthe list, calling people and
saying, I'm a mortgage broker,do you need a mortgage? Which
may not be the most effectivesales strategy but at that
point, I didn't know any betterand just figured I would jump in
(08:59):
with both feet. So I did.
Mordecai Rosenberg (09:04):
What year is that?
Andrew Dansker (09:07):
That's late 2011.
Mordecai Rosenberg (09:10):
Okay, so you start by calling saying, "do you
need a mortgage?" How does thatpitch land? Is there a point
where you figured out okay, nowI know what to say when someone
(09:32):
phone picks up the phone?
Andrew Dansker (09:33):
Yeah, it was an interesting trajectory for me,
because I don't think that whatwas happening was immediately
clear to me at that time.
Although in retrospect, it'svery clear and really informs my
business model today. But atthat time, in addition to that
work, which to answer yourquestion, it was about one in
100 calls would lead to tosomeone who said "yes, I'm
(09:54):
interested in having aconversation" and then some
smaller percentage of that thatactually went anywhere. But what
I did simultaneously was Istarted going to everyone I had
ever met and saying, "do youknow anyone in the real estate
business?" and going to events,and so on and so forth. And I
was very fortunate, my fatheractually introduced me to Shimon
(10:15):
Shkury, who at that time hadrelatively recently started
Ariel Property Advisors, anddidn't have a capital markets
division yet. And he said to me,yes, we need someone to help our
clients with loans. And we'llgive you a shot and see how that
goes. Of course, I was relyingon the expertise of the shop I
(10:36):
was working at, I wasn't the onebringing the knowledge to the
table, I was really making theconnection. But what ended up
happening was that I started todo work with Ariel, and with
their clients, and that was farmore effective and efficient
than calling people all day whodidn't want to talk to me.
Mordecai Rosenberg (10:58):
Got it. So this showed you the the strength
of a warm intro.
Andrew Dansker (11:05):
A warm intro, and I think also the strength of
a good referral.
Mordecai Rosenberg (11:11):
A good referral. So the thing about
referrals is that you need toalign yourself with the referral
source. So how do you take thatstrategy forward?
Andrew Dansker (11:23):
Yeah, so the question you're asking is a
question that I spent about fiveyears even arriving at that
question. Maybe I'm not thequickest mortgage broker in the
business. So it took me a fewyears to even figure out the
question. And then it took mesome more time to figure out the
(11:47):
answer. And I think that wheremy business really began to come
together was when I had figuredout that question, and then
figured out a good answer.
Which, for me, was figuring outhow do I align my interests with
the interests of the people I'dlike to have as referral
sources? And how do Iunderstand, in my case primarily
(12:07):
sales brokers. What they needfrom their business and their
client, and how I can help themachieve that as part of the
mortgage process.
Mordecai Rosenberg (12:24):
That's great. You want to figure out
how to be a hero to theirclients. How to be a hero to
them. Or maybe the best way tosay this, you want to enable the
sales broker to be a hero totheir client through your
services.
Andrew Dansker (12:42):
Absolutely.
Mordecai Rosenberg (12:44):
So how do you do that? What's the thing
that you come upon it as anidea? Was there any kind of new
thing that you realized or wasit how you were presenting
yourself to them?
Andrew Dansker (13:09):
I think that there's a multi part answer
there. Part of it, for me, wasabout really understanding what
I'm selling as a mortgagebroker. I think that there is a
group of mortgage brokers thatare selling a process. You want
(13:29):
to be able to tell yourinvestors that you hired a high
profile shop and that they ran aprocess, and that you can't be
held responsible for anymistakes, because you hired the
right people. I'm not reallyselling that to that kind of
institutional client. There areother shops that do a tremendous
amount of volume, I thinkthey're selling leverage, right?
We're gonna get a better dealthan you're gonna get on your
(13:52):
own because we do so muchbusiness with such and such a
institution. I'm not really bigenough that I'm doing that.
Occasionally, maybe, butgenerally not really. So what am
I really selling at the end ofthe day? I'm selling
information. What does thatmean? To me, that means you're
maybe a new entrant to the realestate marketplace, or you're a
(14:12):
professional in retail, andyou're buying your first resi,
or you're very experienced inBoston, and you've just arrived
in New York. For whateverreason, you need information,
and that's really what I'veconceived myself as brokering.
And understanding that and beingable to convey that to the sales
(14:33):
broker helps them understand whoto send to me and helps me
achieve a very high level ofsuccess for them and their
clients, as opposed to thefrustrating experience of
repeated introductions thatdon't go anywhere. That, I
think, was a turning point.
Because I definitely did a lotof work with some New York teams
(14:53):
that were working withprofessional New York investors,
and I had the same frustratingconversations over and over
again, where they would make theintroduction, I would speak to
the client, and the client wouldsay, I have a direct
relationship with yourcommunity. Signature, Dime, at
that time, maybe Astoria,investors, customers, and I'd be
happy to hire you if you canfind me something better. Which,
(15:19):
once you blanketed the marketwith direct relationships,
because you're a repeat player,it's very hard to do. As a sales
broker making that intro, youcan start to feel frustrated or
unsuccessful in that intro. Sounderstanding that that was the
wrong client and that was thewrong target was critical.
Besides that, really being ableto present clearly the value
(15:42):
proposition to the referralsource themselves was critical.
So beyond, here's what I can dofor your client. And here is who
the right client is, what's thebenefit to you as a sales broker
for doing this work with me. Inmy mind, one of the primary
answers is simply that, as asales broker, your transactions
(16:06):
are large and infrequent and youneed value add to give to your
clients to maintain and deepenyour relationships to prepare
for those big moments. And thatcan be recurring updates on your
valuation of the property, itcan be referrals for legal
services, it can be an update inthe leasing market to make sure
(16:27):
your client is maximizing theirincome, it can be a referral to
someone for tax advice. I thinkin this case, all those clients
are also financing, and knowingthat you can add value to their
ongoing business throughfinancing, keeping the
conversation tied to you andalive, is a critical value add
to that referral source inparticular.
Mordecai Rosenberg (16:54):
That's so interesting. So the first point
that you made is also I feelvery critical. It's when you
talk about referrals. So peoplethink, introduce me to
Blackstone. That sounds greatbut if Blackstone doesn't need
you, then it's not valuable, itdoesn't set you up for success
(17:19):
with Blackstone, but also yourreferral source.
Andrew Dansker (17:20):
Exactly right. I mean, I don't want to meet
Blackstone. I mean, if they'relistening, and they'd like to
hire me sure, I'd love to chat.
But as a general rule, I don'twant to meet Blackstone, and I
don't want to meet Cornado, andI don't want to meet Related.
I'm not selling what they'rebuying so I'm not doing any good
for myself, for them, or theperson that puts us together to
(17:43):
have that meeting. I would liketo meet the person who owns
three buildings and is buying afourth one, and it's vacant, and
their lender doesn't do vacantdeals, and they need to know how
to get a vacant deal done. Iknow how to do that, I know how
to do it really well. I know howto do it with people who will
deliver at a good price. Andthat's what I sell, that
(18:03):
information and the ability tofacilitate that transaction.
Mordecai Rosenberg (18:11):
Yeah, I've seen a lot of times with sales
strategy, a team will say, allright, let's look at the top 50
owners, and let's figure out howto how to get to them. And if
you have a product that youthink is different and the
(18:33):
service is differentiated andwould be appealing to them, then
great. But another push is tolook at who's already doing
business with us, who are thepeople that we serve best, who
comes to us and loves workingwith us, and we provide them a
unique service and identifythem. So I think what you did
(18:55):
there was to help the salesbroker know when they should be
thinking of you.
Andrew Dansker (19:06):
Absolutely, and I think it was critical for my
own business and the developmentof my team's business because I
think one of the places where somany mortgage brokers in
particular get stuck is like yousaid, you're chasing the wrong
thing. You're chasing thebiggest, the most obvious, the
sexiest, the highest profiletarget. And you can tell
(19:31):
yourself that a bigger paycheckis the same amount of work as a
small paycheck and that youshould therefore go after the
biggest thing you can find inthe market, etc. But, you know,
I just don't look at it thatway. I look at it as really
focusing in on what am I reallyoffering, and who wants that?
Mordecai Rosenberg (19:49):
Right. And then the second point about
thinking about being ofconsistent value to your
clients. Because whether or notyou're a sales broker or your
mortgage broker, it's still aperiodic or episodic
(20:10):
relationship.
Andrew Dansker (20:12):
Absolutely.
Mordecai Rosenberg (20:12):
Well, let's come back to that. I want to
continue getting back to yourstory. It sounds like a pretty
good niche that you found withAriel Property Advisors. So from
(20:38):
there did you go to Marcus?
Andrew Dansker (20:42):
Yeah. That's exactly right, I moved to
Marcus. I was given anopportunity that I felt I
couldn't turn down, which was topartner with a team that is
still in operation called NewYork Multifamily, which was at
the time run by Peter Von DerAhe, Joe Koicim. Shaun Riney
(21:03):
became a principal member ofthat team and I was given the
opportunity to essentiallyhandle their business. And I
think that, in retrospect, it'sironic, but the doors that
opened up were the exactopposite of the doors that I
thought it was opening up. So Ithought that was the key into
(21:25):
the introductions to the highprofile repeat big players in
New York, who I met with thatwere buying buildings from them.
And then discovered that I wasselling a product but they
didn't want to buy. So it wasvery interesting in that where I
thought that was taking me wasnot where it took me at all,
(21:47):
which may be, could be the themefor the career trajectory, we're
tracing, right, I thought I wasgoing one way it turned out, it
was a winding road, not astraight road. It's going a
different way the whole time.
But that took me to Marcus andMillichap. And from there was
really where that strategy andthat understanding that I just
(22:10):
described came into focus forme, in part really in contrast
with what I was actually tryingto do.
Mordecai Rosenberg (22:19):
Got it. So it sounds like you ran into some
of the same challenges of, atthe end of the day, do these
people actually need thatservice or not? Right, the
institution?
Andrew Dansker (22:36):
Absolutely.
Mordecai Rosenberg (22:36):
Yeah. So, from there, you end up starting
your own shop?
Andrew Dansker (22:46):
Yeah, and for you, it was a short partial
sentence when you said fromthere, but for me, that was a
long eight years of figuring outwhat I was doing, understanding
my product, understanding who Iwas able to sell it to
successfully, understanding howto source those clients to to
sell it to and understanding thevalue of those relationships.
(23:07):
But yes, from there, I startedmy own company.
Mordecai Rosenberg (23:09):
Well, let's delve into the 8 years a bit. So
what did you get as far as yourbusiness strategy? You said that
Andrew Dansker (23:16):
Sure. So I think to start off with, I started
you expected one thing and thedoors that opened ended up being
with the same business plan aseveryone else at that time,
different. As far as how yourbusiness plan evolves over the
course of that eight years, whatdoes that look like?
(23:41):
let's call it 2013. Benchmark isbuying a lot of buildings, SLATE
is buying a lot of buildings,there's a lot of guys out there
buying buildings in New York,renovating them, cleaning them
up, selling them, and I aspiredto do business with them. That's
(24:02):
what I thought I was doing. As Igot farther along, I discovered
they know the same people that Iknow, in terms of lending
relationships, and the peoplewho are hiring me are the people
who say, I've just started myfund. I've just gotten to New
York, I've just switched productclasses, or I'm selling my
product in New York, I'm buyingin Florida. I don't know anyone
(24:24):
in Florida. So there wasdefinitely a long process for me
of trial. I don't want to saytrial and error or trial and
failure, but I'm trying to dosomething right, which was to go
after those big name repeatplayers. And discovering where I
was actually succeeding and whatthat meant and using that
(24:47):
feedback to define who my clientwas and what I was actually
selling. So that for me is nowin hindsight incapsulated very
succinctly but was actually amulti year process of trial,
failure, why isn't it working?
What is working? That took yearsto come into clarity for me. And
while I was there, I had gone into do the work for New York
(25:11):
Multifamily, but I ended updoing work for teams across the
company. I did work with teams,not just other teams in New
York, but also Brooklyn, NewJersey, Boston, Florida offices.
I was beginning to understandwhat the real mindset of those
brokers because I was workingwith them all the time. I was in
(25:33):
the same company with them andunderstanding their needs and
understanding how to tailor myquasi product offering, my value
add proposition to their needs.
It was, again, a multi yearprocess of working with all
(25:53):
those teams and understandingtheir businesses and
understanding how they wereunderstanding their businesses.
So like I said, maybe I'm justnot the fastest learner, but it
took me about eight years.
Mordecai Rosenberg (26:06):
Yeah well, I wouldn't consider myself the
fastest learner either. I feellike a lot of the smartest
people are not the fastestlearners.
Andrew Dansker (26:17):
Listen, I think part of the challenge is that
there's no great roadmap, nobook on how to build a great,
successful middle marketmortgage brokerage company. Or
mortgage brokerage business, ifyou're inside another company.
There's no roadmap, it's notlike school where there's a
syllabus, and these are thebooks you read, and then you get
all the information and drawyour own conclusions, but here's
(26:40):
the map. My experience was, ittakes time in real life to even
understand the question you'resupposed to be asking, let alone
what the answer is.
Mordecai Rosenberg (26:51):
Yeah. Right.
And I guess that question isreally, what value am I creating
and for who?
Andrew Dansker (27:01):
Yeah, absolutely.
Mordecai Rosenberg (27:05):
So if you think about what your elevator
pitch was at the beginning ofthose eight years, and then you
think about what your elevatorpitch was at the end of them,
what would you say had changed?
As far as your self perceptionand and how you explained the
value that you added? What didyou realize by the end of those
(27:30):
eight years?
Andrew Dansker (27:34):
180. I think that my pitch at the beginning
was really narcissistic in a wayof, you should hire me because
I'm smart, and hardworking, andI want your business. And I left
with a totally outward facingpitch which was, you should hire
(27:56):
me because I know what you needto know and I can help you grow
your business. Totally 180reversal on that pitch.
Mordecai Rosenberg (28:04):
Yeah. I can help you grow your business. And
the you is the sales broker, orthe end client?
Andrew Dansker (28:11):
Either one, either the sales broker or the
end client. And I don't justwork with sales brokers, I have
a lot of great attorneys thatsend me clients, and I've done
work with accountants, and so onand so forth. And there are
multiple other professionals inthat group of referral sources.
(28:31):
But yes, it is both the referralsource and the end client to
whom I feel very comfortablesaying, I have a very clear
recipe and great track recordfor helping you grow your
business, together with you. Andthat's a total 180 from where I
started, which was, hire mebecause I want to make a living
(28:52):
and I don't really know whatelse I'm doing.
Mordecai Rosenberg (28:55):
Right. And I don't want to go back to a law
firm. So if you're sitting witha client, and you're saying I
know how to make you successful.
What is it? You're sitting witha client and they're like, well,
I've worked with lots of othermortgage brokers I know the
(29:15):
drill. What are you saying thatto explain that no, this is why
Dansker is different than othergroups that you've worked with?
Andrew Dansker (29:30):
That's a good question. I think that one of
the things I've found in ourbusiness and in sales in
general, is that one of thehardest things to do is to turn
something down. I think that asales broker, or mortgage
broker, or someone in sales, atleast in my experience in the
real estate business, reallyoften struggles with saying, no,
(29:53):
this isn't for me. And I thinkthat what that leads to a lot of
the time is people taking onthings they really shouldn't
take on. Andthen struggling toget them done, and then ending
up with a bad result for theclient. Whereas one of the
things that we do, and I thinkwe do well, is understanding
(30:15):
what we do and what we do well,and being really comfortable
saying to people, yes, I canhelp you with that, and I know
how to solve the question you'reasking, or the problem you're
presenting. Or no, I don't, andI'm willing to investigate for
you, if that's what you want todo. Or, alternatively, I'm not
willing to investigate. But notstarting off with the answer is
(30:40):
yes to anything you ask for, andthen I'll go figure it out after
you leave my office. I thinkthat coming from that position
of confidence in our ability togenerate a consistent business,
and therefore, our willingnessto focus on the things that
we're good at, reallydistinguishes us in a way that
meaningfully changes the resultfor the client. Because there's
(31:04):
a total difference, would you goto a dentist that was going to
put you out with the gas and youlay there, and then he opens the
dental textbook and figures outhow to drill your cavity? I
mean, that's a terrifyingprospect. Which should be no
less terrifying if you tellsomeone, yes, I have a $20
million transaction, and I havea million dollar hard deposit
(31:24):
and you leave their office, andthen they're Googling lenders.
That's scary and should be scaryand that's the that's the thing
that happens. So I think that'ssomething that really
distinguishes us is beingcomfortable saying, I know the
answer to this question, or Idon't, and be honest about that.
Mordecai Rosenberg (31:48):
Yeah. I imagine there's more to what
you're saying also, because iftheir alternative is an upstart,
fly by the night firm, that'sone thing. If they're if their
(32:09):
alternative is CBRE or JLL, or Idon't know...
Andrew Dansker (32:15):
Well, I disagree with your premise a little bit,
because I don't think that mostmortgage companies operate as a
firm, which does distinguish us.
We, in my firm, shareinformation whereas most firms
operate in a silo where eachbroker is on their own. And
that's very different in termsof the quality and quantity of
(32:35):
information available to me andto the brokers in my office. But
I think also the symptom ofinsecurity that I just described
to you is not exclusive to a flyby night firm. There are plenty
(32:59):
of people who work at big,reputable companies, and are
perfectly capable of placing aCMBS loan, or an agency loan,
etc., and really have nobusiness trying to place a
vacant apartment building inDitmas Park. But they will take
the assignment because theydon't have any other assignments
(33:20):
this quarter and they figure howhard could it be? It's an
apartment building. It's vacant.
So I'll just look up the localbanks. That happens all the time
and has nothing to do with thequality of the firm.
Mordecai Rosenberg (33:33):
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I have a
weird question for you. You'vebeen around a lot of investment
sales brokerage teams, Mark atyour multifamily, Marcus, and
you've also been around mortgagebrokerage firms. Do you find
(33:58):
that there's a difference inwillingness to share information
between investment sales brokersand mortgage brokers? And the
reason why I asked you that I'veseen that on the investment
sales side, there's oftentimesan open willingness to share
(34:22):
information. On the other hand,I have experienced what you're
talking about on the mortgageside where it is siloed and
protective. But I'm wondering ifyou've seen any difference, or
if it's the same as it were, ormaybe you haven't seen that
(34:42):
differentiation?
Andrew Dansker (34:45):
That's a good question. I think it depends. I
think that sales brokers aren'texactly walking around to each
other saying, hey, there's a hotbuyer in the market. Here's his
or her phone number in case youhave any listings. But I do
think it depends on theindividual, their reputation and
(35:09):
the culture they've created,either in their company or in
the community. I had a call lastnight, actually, with a friend
of mine who works at JLL. And Isaid, we're looking at a deal,
it's a little outside our depthand I'd love your feedback to
see if this is an assignment weshould take on. If you have any
suggestions for me, I'm pokingaround to figure out, can I take
(35:30):
this assignment on withconfidence? Which goes back to
something I described about us.
But the point here is, I feelvery comfortable calling him and
asking him that question. Andwhen he calls me, I answer the
same question. And I maintainthat network throughout our
industry to make sure I have thebest information available, and
I don't find the mortgagebrokerage community to be any
(35:51):
more or less protective ofinformation than in the other.
Mordecai Rosenberg (35:58):
Yeah. You're clearly not like that. You have
that willingness to shareinformation and and learn from
others, from what else ishappening. I think that has
differentiated you, which isgreat.
Andrew Dansker (36:20):
Yeah, and it's a big world out there. I mean,
there's plenty of money foreverybody to make. Some other
guy or woman is trying to make aliving, it's not like if I don't
tell them how to solve theirproblem that their client is
going to just jump into my armsand do the deal with me instead.
I think that's a weird fantasyof a mindset that I just don't
(36:43):
ascribe to. I think there'splenty of business for everyone.
There's no reason why I can'thelp somebody.
Mordecai Rosenberg (36:48):
Yeah, I think one of the big takeaways
that I'm getting from this partof our conversation is, when it
comes to the referrals, a lot ofpeople are just working with
accountants, attorneys or salesbrokers. You think just
(37:11):
announcing that you would liketo be introduced is enough of a
reason, or you say, I'll pay youa referral fee. And that should
be enough. A referral fee that'snice. But if you're going to
embarrass me in front of myfriends, when we do, it's not
worth it.
Andrew Dansker (37:31):
It's not worth it at all.
Mordecai Rosenberg (37:32):
So you need to sell that person and you need
to make them, this referralsource, a hero.
Andrew Dansker (37:39):
I agree with you 100%. I think the referral fee
is the least important factor inthe equation for whether or not
someone sends you a deal. Andsimply announcing that you'd
like a deal distinguishes youfrom absolutely nobody. I think
that where I really focus is,I'm going to make you look good,
I know what I'm doing, I'm notgoing to take on something I
(38:02):
can't do. I'm going to be honestwith your client, I'm going to
be respectful with your client.
And also, if the client comesback and is talking to me about
a sale, I'm going to tell youand not someone else. I don't
pass people's clients around andI have a reputation for
maintaining thatconfidentiality. And that's very
important. There's no way Icould work with 20 different
teams in the same company if Iwas passing their clients back
(38:24):
and forth. So having thereputation for those things and
being able to understand how toadd that value, I agree with
you, far exceeds the value of acouple thousand dollar check.
Mordecai Rosenberg (38:39):
Yeah. So let's shift gears a little bit.
You and I have talked about worklife balance a bit. A lot of
people think about it like havea work life balance, or be a
salesperson. That salespeopleare on call 24/7 and your work
(39:10):
is never done. It could be itcould be 9 or 10 o'clock at
night, there's someone else whoyou could email or reach out to
or find another lead. And I knowyou have two young kids who
clearly you love and veryimportant to you. How do you
handle the work life balance?
Because having little kids isalso a lot of work. So how do
(39:35):
you approach that in terms ofending a day or carving out time
for them, or making space foryour family?
Andrew Dansker (39:52):
I think that's a great question. And I think it's
great that you're even askingthe question, I think a lot of
people don't think about evenasking that question until it's
maybe a little bit too far inthe rearview mirror to make the
right choices. I think that Iknow that this is the most
important thing to me. And, tome, knowing that unequivocally
(40:16):
enables my decision making. I'vebeen very fortunate in an
incredible number of things, notthe least of which is that I
started my career in thisbusiness as a salesperson,
before I had children. And Iworked all the time, I worked at
night, I went to an event 3-4nights a week, sometimes I went
(40:36):
to a breakfast event as well. Iworked 10-12 hours a day.
Besides those events, I went tothe office on Sunday to get
ready for the week. And I reallyused a lot of my downtime to
rest, to be in great shape,mentally and physically, to
excel in the time that I wasworking. So for me, it was a
real cycle of work, recover,work, recover, which you could
(41:00):
make an argument about whetheror not that was healthy. But
either way, that's where I was.
And that enabled me to build abusiness, which I've been very
fortunate to say, has achieved alevel where I'm able to make
some of those distinctions. Itotally recognize that I have
the good fortune of being in aposition to say that I've
(41:21):
concluded based on where I am,that the answer to how much is
not more. And the answer to howmuch for me is enough. If you
need a B plus to get intograduate school, and you're
getting straight A's, you'rewasting your time, you should
get a B plus and do somethingelse. And I feel the same way
about money which is, could Iwork more and get more? Yes, you
(41:45):
are right, I can stay here till10 o'clock at night, I can email
people, I can do all kinds ofthings after hours to add to the
business during the day. I couldwork 24 hours a day. But the
goal is not more, the goal isenough. And I'm very fortunate
to have enough. And I draw the
line at about 5 (42:06):
30 every day, which I know sounds ludicrous in
the city we live in, but atabout 5:30 every day, I go home,
and I see my kids. I certainlywill take a call while I'm
walking home, and that's fine,but by the time I walk through
that door at (42:23):
15, I turn off my phone and put it down next to my
keys. And I don't pick it upagain until my kids are asleep.
The reality of working andhaving kids is that you don't
have a lot of time with themduring the week. That time is
sacrosanct to me, I don't carewho is calling me. With respect
(42:43):
to the head of every majorinvestment firm in New York
City, they could all call me atonce at 6:30 but I'm not picking
up because I have enough forwhat I need. And the rest is for
my kids and my wife. And Irecognize that that's a
privileged position to be thatI'm able to draw that line and I
(43:04):
draw it very firmly.
Mordecai Rosenberg (43:05):
I think what you also realize is, let's say
it's 2-3 hours of time that youspend with your kids. It could
have been that someone calledwhen you're still in the office
and on calls for the for thenext three hours, and then
you've got to call him backafterwards. And that is
(43:27):
perfectly understandable. Thefact that it's a block on your
calendar doesn't mean that it'sa higher priority than the other
stuff that that's important toyou. And the world isn't going
to fall apart. Yes, you need tobe available at a service
Andrew Dansker (43:45):
Yeah, it's okay.
I don't live in a world where ifsession, but everyone knows that
people are busy and calling backa couple hours later is okay.
you don't answer my email in anhour, I think you're ignoring
me. And maybe some people feelthat way if I don't answer them
(44:09):
in an hour. But you know, theother thing I think is needed is
drawing boundaries. The way Ithink about it is, the week has
168 hours in it, and that's truefor you and for the CEO of
American Express. The CEO ofAmerican Express is doing far
more with their week than youare, no offense. I don't know
how busy you are, but I'mguessing they're running a
(44:32):
pretty big company. But they'vegot the same 168 hours that you
do and even if they only need tosleep three hours a night and
they don't eat and they don'tshower, there's still a limit.
So the limits that we place orthe limits that we don't place
are totally arbitrary. And evenif you allow the work to run
into your family life and youtreat your family time as
(44:53):
something that you can overrideif necessary, you're still going
to hit a hard limit somewherewhich is sleep and eat and
shower. Which is going to maxout at 168. So I don't feel that
it's in any way more or lessarbitrary to draw that line at
family time versus basic humanneeds time. And I don't think
(45:17):
that it matters in a way,obviously if you drew it at one
hour a day, at some point, itmatters. But to carve off 90
minutes for your kids is, isdoable and survivable. And the
other thing I think it does isit forces you to be more
efficient, which is to say that,when I get a new client, it's a
(45:38):
smaller transaction, it's a oneoff transaction, it's not
someone I have a long termrelationship with, I share it
with my team. And again, that'sback to that mindset that
there's plenty to go around,which I think it's critical to
continue to maintain but I don'tmind sharing. I'm happy to see
them succeed, I'm happy to seethem make the fee, I don't need
(45:58):
to reach in their pocket onevery deal, or keep every deal
that comes to me for myself, I'drather share. But that also
enables me to focus on the mostefficient use of my time for the
highest value targets.
Mordecai Rosenberg (46:15):
So what would you say though, for
someone who's new, a youngerperson entering in to the
industry? Because, like yousaid, when you're starting out
and all you have is yourcomputer and your phone, you
have to make a name foryourself. You have to get out
there. Do you think that youstill have to do your time?
Andrew Dansker (46:41):
Absolutely.
Mordecai Rosenberg (46:41):
At what point can you start setting
those limits? Is it that you'vegot to do your hard time for
5-10 years, and then you canrelax?
Andrew Dansker (46:53):
I'm not a dues paying guy in the sense that I
feel you need to suffer tosuffer, to pay your dues. I do
think however, there are somebasic mechanics of our business,
(47:16):
which if you understand them,then you understand why you have
to overload your schedule tobegin with, and then that you
then have the ability to dialthat back later on. And I think
the amount of time it takesdepends on how successful you
are ramping up. Becausebasically, what you're doing in
(47:36):
the beginning of your career asa salesperson in many ways is
you're creating a funnel. What Imean by that is you're basically
meeting an incredibly largenumber of people, if you're
doing your job. And you'refiltering through them for
people that you like, that likeyou, that you connect with, that
you see eye to eye with, and towhom you can add value and that
(47:58):
you think can add value to yourbusiness. And that's essentially
what you're doing at thebeginning. And once you have
created that roster of people,which you could call your
network, you can run yourbusiness without really
attending to it in the same wayin the sense of growing it. You
don't need to fill the top ofthat funnel as aggressively.
(48:20):
Even if you add a little bit ata time, once you've established
the baseline of a functioningbusiness, you can dramatically
scale back that those efforts. Iwould say there's somewhere
between 50-100 people that Iwork with regularly either as
clients or referral sources,etc. And I know that from some
(48:41):
of them, I'll see a lot of dealsin a year. From some I'll see
none this year, some next year,and that's okay. But I'm not
ramping up to that number everyyear, they follow along year to
year, some will drop off somenew ones come on, and that's
okay. I think in the beginningof your career, you absolutely
have to fill that as fast as youcan. Once you get to 99, okay,
(49:07):
so then this year, you don't donearly as much you need to add
one more to have a fullcomplement. That's what I think.
Mordecai Rosenberg (49:15):
Yeah.
Getting back to what you weresaying at the beginning, you
have to know what the value isthat you're providing. Your
sales calls have a much morerifle shot approach because
you're here, you're gonna knowwithin 10-15 minutes if this is
(49:36):
someone who is a good client forAnd if
you're a good match for them. Atyou.
Andrew Dansker (49:44):
Absolutely.
the beginning, it's just ascattershot, you're going after
every one and you're trying tofigure out, where am I going to
get an in? Also, at thebeginning, people will just take
a flyer at something that theyhave no experience with, you
know that vacated industrialbuilding with zoning issues and
(50:07):
environmental problems like oh,yeah, sure I could do that. And
then they try to figure it out.
Maybe sometimes if that's theonly shot you have, you have to
spend all your time trying tocut your teeth on it. But you
have to get to the point whereyou have a track record, and
track record will give youconfidence, it'll make you
better at selling. And so thosefirst few years, I think your
(50:31):
goal is to develop a trackrecord.
I agree with you100%. I think that track record
helps you define what you'reselling, helps you get the
experience to sell properly. Imean, I think an experienced
person who's gonna hire you cansmell that you've never done a
deal before, if that's the case,and you've got to sell around
(50:51):
that to begin, which is fine. Ithink you can sell around that,
especially if you're with astrong company, and you can lean
on that reputation. But I agreewith what you said, 100%. It's
about reps at the beginning, youjust need to get your reps in,
it doesn't matter what it is.
Mordecai Rosenberg (51:11):
The reality is that when you're 25, you have
energy, you can work untill 11at night, and still be back at
it. There were years when I wasin sales that I was in the
office every night untill 11-12at night, and back in at 8 in
the morning. Today, I don'tthink I could do that
(51:33):
sustainably. So you wish therewas something that you could
tell a newer salesperson, somekind of silver bullets, stick to
this course. What would you sayto someone who's just starting
out or f they've been in for afew months? It's a hall at the
(51:58):
beginning?
Andrew Dansker (52:00):
It is. I boil it down for the people I hired to
two things. One of them isfollow the business plan and
don't give up. And that's it.
Obviously, you need to be in aplace where you understand what
the business plan is, and you'vebeen given a good business plan
which functions. But assumingthat to be true, it's purely
about following the plan and notgiving up. Everyone I see that
(52:23):
fails, sales broker or mortgagebroker, either they're not doing
what the successful person orcompany has told them to do,
they've decided they've gottheir own strategy, or they
stopped doing it. I think itreally boils down to those two
things.
Mordecai Rosenberg (52:46):
Scott Adams wrote a book, How to Fail at
Almost Everything and StillSucceed. He says in there that
he doesn't believe in goals, hebelieves in processes. For
example, if you have a goal oflosing 20 pounds and you lose 20
(53:08):
pounds, now what? Where do yougo? Where do you go from there?
And what if you don't hit thatgoal? Now you feel like a
failure and you're not going totry again? But the process is
alright, every day, I am goingto put on my gym clothes, and
that's the starting point. Youcould do that. Once you have
(53:31):
your gym clothes on, you'reprobably going to go out the
door and do something.
Andrew Dansker (53:36):
Yeah, I agree with that 100%. When I talk to
my team about building theirbusiness plans, I always tell
them the same thing. I can'ttell you the number of people
I've hired who have told me theywant to make a million dollars a
year. And that's great. And youcan back that into how much you
need to make every month andevery week and how much you do
this and that. But at the end ofthe day, what you need on your
business plan are action items.
I'm going to sit down at 9:01,I'm going to make 100 outbound
(54:00):
calls, and then I'm going to getup and have lunch, and that's
it. That's the plan. That's abusiness plan. I'm going to make
$10,000 a day, to me is not aplan.
Mordecai Rosenberg (54:15):
Yeah. And maybe that comes back to the
same boundaries, becausesometimes with that work life
balance, you have to makeboundaries at work. Because
especially once you startgetting deals, now you can just
spend all day managing yourdeals. And you're not making the
outbound calls. When I wasmanaging a sales team, we had a
(54:38):
thing where I think it was 9-11in the morning, we were all
going to just turn offcomputers, not take our calls,
and just hit the phones. Thenafter 11, we get to managing
whatever the fires were of theday, but you've got to carve out
that boundary also.
Andrew Dansker (55:00):
I agree with you, absolutely. I think that I
see it every time with newhires. They come in, they're not
making any money, yet they buildup their network a little bit,
they get some leads, they startclosing some deals, they stopped
originating, the deals closed,and all of a sudden, they have
an empty pipeline again, andtheir income at the beginning is
very wavy. And basically, forme, I try to get ahead of it,
(55:25):
although it's a challenge, Ithink, because it's a skill set
to manage those two thingstogether. But I would say the
sales coaching I'm doing foreverybody who's about a year to
18 months in is how to overcomethat wavy income and flatten it
out. Yeah, once you figured outhow to get the deals, how do you
(55:46):
get the deals while you're doingdeals? And then you can start
thinking about how do you getmore and bigger and more
efficient, etc. But that's a bigchallenge.
Mordecai Rosenberg (55:55):
Yeah. So as we finish up, I want to ask you
our last question. If I askedyou to fill in the blanks, you
see that most salespeople do X,but really they should be doing
Y, what's a mistake that you seea lot of a lot of sales guys
Andrew Dansker (56:26):
I think I do have an answer to that. I built
a very specific business, whichis that I personally close one
to two loans a week and have formore than half a decade. Yeah,
making? Something that to youit's so clear that that you're
six years, I've been running oneto two loans every single week,
missing the mark, this is whatyou should be doing? Anything
no exceptions. There areabsolutely zero loans among that
(56:47):
list that would make the coverof the Real Deal, Real Estate
Weekly, New York Real EstateJournal, not a single one. To
me, that doesn't bother me atall. I think a lot of people are
into what I call whale hunting.
They want the big stuff, theywant the sexy stuff, they want
the cover page stuff, they wantthe stuff to tell their friends
(57:09):
and family about. Nobody caresabout the work I'm doing. Nobody
was writing an article about it.
come to mind?
Nobody wants to hear about it ata cocktail party. I finance a 10
unit apartment building and astory that nobody cares. And
that's fine. The person who'sborrowing the money cares. But
(57:32):
my business is totally built onsingles and doubles. How do I
consistently produce goodresults for my clients and my
referral sources over and overagain. And I see a lot of people
attracted to the biggest name,the biggest deal, the biggest
paycheck. And I just I thinkthat's a mistake. Personally, I
Mordecai Rosenberg (57:54):
Right, and sometimes it actually does die.
don't want one $1 millionpaycheck every year. I don't
have the intestinal fortitude todo that. You've been in this
business for a long time aswell, right? Every deal dies at
least three times before itcloses. And if that's your one
paycheck for the year, you wantto throw up and pass out at the
Andrew Dansker (58:14):
Yeah, and also it does die sometimes, too,
same time when the client callsyou up and says, I'm not signing
this.
which makes for a rough year, ifthat's your only deal. I want to
be in the position of I havethree other deals to close this
(58:35):
week. And if you don't want tosign it, don't sign it. I don't
know what to tell you. I mean,it's a bank, they don't care
that you don't like the fontthat the loan docs are using, or
whatever you come up with.
There's a certain point in whichyou have to detach from that.
And the ability to detach, Ithink, is part of finding your
own center of gravity and beingable to survive long term, and
(58:58):
to get out of that emotionalroller coaster.
Mordecai Rosenberg (59:03):
I love it.
So Andrew, how can people findyou if they want to get a hold
of you for a loan or ajob?What's the best way to get
in touch?
Andrew Dansker (59:11):
I appreciate that. For a loan or a job, you
can find me atadansker@danskergroup.com.
That's D-A-N-S-K-E-R. And youcan email me directly. If you
need a loan, I might do it orone of my team might do it. If
you want to get hired, we havesomeone full time who's in
charge of hiring and training.
We were very hands on in thatdepartment, so we have a full
(59:33):
time person whose job it is justto make sure that our new
recruits succeed, which we havea great track record with,
thankfully. And I'd love to hearfrom anybody.
Mordecai Rosenberg (59:46):
Andrew, thank you so much for your time,
this has been delightful andwe'll be in touch.
Andrew Dansker (59:51):
Thanks very much.
Mordecai Rosenberg (59:53):
All right.
Thanks, Andrew. Take care.
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