Episode 37: Craig Branton, Vice Chairman with Cushman & Wakefield

Summary:

On this episode, Mordecai speaks with Craig Branton, who is a vice chairman with Cushman and Wakefield, recorded at the end of October 2022. The multifamily market is kind of in turmoil, interest rates are up by several points, and so sales have grounded to a halt and refinancing has slowed. So what do you do as a salesperson? What do you have, when you don't have something to sell at that current moment where the where the market is not very transactional. We dive into these questions with Craig, who shares really great ideas on what you can do during this time. 

Timestamps:

0:15 - What Do You Do When You Don't Have Something To Sell?
1:41 - Craig’s Earliest Sales Experience
4:57 - How Sales Training Is Different From Sales Training
11:07 - The Importance Of Cold Calling vs. Networking
17:11 - Demonstrating Differentiated value
22:04 - What Is The Most Difficult Part Of The Business?
25:37 - The Importance Of Taking On Deals That Have A Reasonable Chance Of Going Sideways
31:35 - Selling People Like To Get High And Hope
36:21 - Why People Do Business With You
43:31 - Advice To Clients
47:40 - What’s Happening With FHA Financing
51:41 - What’s Going On In The Multifamily Market Today
56:35 - How To Measure The Success Of Your Database

lenders, market, people, loan, client, equity, selling, deals, screen protectors, year, calls, rates, business, borrower, easy, long, sales, chase, interest rates, debt

Episode Transcript

Mordecai Rosenberg (00:15):
Welcome back to the Origination Podcast,
where we speak to the toporiginators and brokers in the
multifamily industry to try tounderstand what separates the
top performers from the rest ofthe pack. On this episode, I'll
be speaking with Craig Branton,who is a vice chairman with
Cushman and Wakefield. Werecorded this episode at the end

(00:40):
of October 2022. And themultifamily market is kind of in
turmoil. Interest rates are upby several points from six
months ago. So sales havegrounded to a halt. Refinancing
has has has slowed a lot. Sowhat do you do as a salesperson?

(01:00):
What do you have, when you don'thave something to sell at that
current moment where the wherethe market is not very
transactional. We dive into thisa lot with Craig. And he has
some really great ideas on whatyou can do during this time. So
we'll talk about that. We'llalso talk about selling Cutco
knives and how transferable theskill set is between selling

(01:22):
knives and selling mortgages. Soyou've got a lot to enjoy and
dig into in this episode.
Without further ado, let's speakwith Craig.
Craig Branton. Welcome to theOrigination Podcast and so
excited to have you on.

Craig Branton (01:41):
Thank you. I appreciate the opportunity.

Mordecai Rosenberg (01:44):
Yeah, so we were just before I hit record,
we were talking about theexciting state of the
multifamily world. And here it'sOctober 2022. But the
origination podcast is is ahaven. And there's always good
news. So we're gonna bring itbring some bring some light.

Craig Branton (02:04):
Sounds good.

Mordecai Rosenberg (02:05):
So, Craig, the question that I like to
start off with it is to askabout your earliest sales
experience. And if you had tothink of it when I say that,
like the earliest salesexperience, you can remember and
it might be grade school, itcould be high school, it could
be summer job. It could becollege, it could be current

(02:29):
role, but anything comes to mindwhen I think about early sales
experience.

Craig Branton (02:33):
So I have actually never been in a
salaried type role ever in mycareer. So that's starting after
college, I had never actuallybeen in a position where salary
was was the main source ofincome. It's I've always been a
commission based employee. Butgoing back to my high school
days, I actually some people mayremember this, but I actually my

(02:56):
first job was actually sellingCutco's knives. So that was that
was a kind of a friends andfamily door to door type deal.
Where you'd go out and you'dlearn your presentation. And of
course, your selling. You know,your first sale is always to
your parents. And then yourparents friends. And you know,

(03:19):
but you know, one of the thingsthat I remember about it is that
we you know, the knife was veryquality, right? So I always felt
good. And the one thing that Iremember from that is, you know,
it's always easier to be in asales position when you're
confident in what you'reselling. And that's probably my
first recollection of reallyhaving the competence in what I

(03:40):
was selling, knowing that it wasa good product, even though I
was probably too early to know,what was good or what wasn't
good and the knife business but,but I really did just from
reactions to the people. And itjust gave me a lot of
confidence. And it put me in aposition to kind of look and
look forward to my future toknow hey, I need to be able to

(04:01):
be in a position where I cansell something that I'm
confident in that I would wantto buy. And that was that was my
first experience. I believe itwas 16 years old when I did
that.

Mordecai Rosenberg (04:11):
Okay, I'm having a flashback to you
remember that those commercialsthat were on TV when we were
kids were knives and Oh, can youcut to her credit card it can
cut through your shoe. That'swhich wasn't Cutco? Not as but
it but it was nice. Were kniveswere a thing. Yeah.

Craig Branton (04:30):
Yeah. And they I think they still they still do
it in a very similar way. Ithink there's more of a retail
presence now but but we had thepenny and the scissor and you
cut the penny and also that wasyou know, one of the gimmicky
things that I remember which issurprised I don't remember much
from back then but I do youremember that?

Mordecai Rosenberg (04:49):
Yeah. Do you remember what kind of cars they
what kind of sales training didCutco provide? You know, before
they send you off? You know tosell?

Craig Branton (05:01):
Yeah. So I mean, it was, I think it was about a
week long training, you know, I,you know, they definitely took
you through, you know, atraining of the actual product.
And then, you know, certainlythere was like, you know, the
demonstration phase where theykind of show you the different
things like we discussed with,like, there was like a rope and
petting cutting and things likethat. And I think they gave you

(05:23):
some basic tips of how to how totalk about it. You know, you're
so young at that age. That it,you know, I think it really all
is kind of instinctive, really,I mean, they, they teach you the
product a little bit about whatto say. And then I feel like,
they kind of set you loose. Ofcourse, they always give you the

(05:43):
example of, you know, thesuperstar in the business and
how they did it. And, you know,he's driving a Cadillac, or he
or she is driving a Cadillac,you know, 25 years old, you
know, just crushing the salesbusiness. And of course,
everyone younger kind of hangson to that a little bit. It's a
little bit of a rah, rah kind ofenvironment where, you know,

(06:07):
it's, you know, like the oldmovie Glengarry Glen Ross,
right? Like, you know, firstplace gets a Cadillac, second
place gets steak knives, andthird place doesn't have a job
kind of feels a little bit likethat, where, you know, probably
only about a third, or maybe ahalf of the people were actually
even able to sell anything,right. But from their
perspective, it was a power ofnumbers, they did get a bunch of

(06:28):
people in send them loose.

Mordecai Rosenberg (06:30):
Yeah. So is there a cohort? Like, did you
have a class of people or agroup that worked together?

Craig Branton (06:36):
Yep. Yep, it was probably, you know, it's kind of
one of those deals where, youknow, you you go in a paper back
then, right, like, this was backin the early to, yeah, you know,
9093 9294, you know, you go in,and you think it's a normal job,
because you think you're goinginto some sort of a normal job,
and then you get there. And thenthere's, like, 20, people in the

(06:57):
lobby, that are all kind of lookthe same, and you're like, oh,
what's going on here? Right, Ithought I was going for a job.
And then next thing, you know,they're, they're actually trying
to sell you why you should bedoing, you know, selling
whatever product that it is,right. And so that's always kind
of when you know that, you know,when you walk into a job, or you
walk into something, you thinkis a job and they're trying to

(07:19):
sell you when you know, youknow, it's a little bit of a
different deal.

Mordecai Rosenberg (07:24):
When what what did they sell? How did they
sell you on it on it?

Craig Branton (07:29):
Well, I think I mean, honestly, you know, like,
like, I think it's, it's aboutlike, you know, some of the
success stories, right. Andlike, I think in sales, you
always need to have this kind ofsupreme confidence that, that
you you can do what the toppeople are doing. And you may
not have the experience, butlike, you've got what it takes

(07:51):
at least you feel like you'vegot what it takes with with
actually with some real thought,right there, not just oh, this
guy can do it, I can do it. Butyou actually think and you can
observe and you know, and youlisten to them, and you feel
like I can I can do those thingsthat they're doing. And for me,
I've always kind of felt thatway in certain sales positions.

(08:12):
So if they put somebody up therethat's had a lot of success. I
think that's probably and I'mvery competitive by nature. So
you know, they put somebody upthere that's got the, you know,
success story, as a younger kid.
And and the other thing wassales tours, it just gives you
flexibility, right? Like a lotof summer jobs when you're in
high school or servers, oryou're working landscaping or

(08:33):
some nine to five, whereas like,this particular opportunity
promised similar money or more,but gave you flexibility, which
I think is what all people inthe sales field are looking for,
you know, not only flexibility,but also not having a value
placed on them by someone else,meaning that you earn X amount

(08:55):
of dollars, this is your job. Ithink the one nice thing about
the sales industry is that youcan go out and create your own
value. And that's kind of whatI've always wanted to do.

Mordecai Rosenberg (09:07):
Yeah, there's so much to dive into
there, which I'm going to comeback around to the flexibility
and that being able to createyour own value is really, really
powerful concept. Do youremember when you were selling
these knives? So are you startwith your parent, your parents,

(09:28):
maybe they introduce you totheir friends, right? But let's
say at some point, you'reknocking on someone's door and
you're saying, Hey, do you wantto buy knives? And the natural
response is no thanks every halfnice. It's so how do you what
how do you get into the in thedoor, you know, with an in and
it's also perceived as acommodity. Right. So So what are

(09:50):
the words that you say to getpast that? No, I already have
already gotten that. It's nice.

Craig Branton (09:58):
Yeah, so I think that That's an interesting
question. I mean, I think I've,I've never really been that
comfortable in a in a coldsituation, I have always tried
to find ways to get out of acold situation at least to get
warm. And I think that's reallykind of the art that a lot of

(10:18):
people miss. It's like, I can gocall 100 people and I get two
responses. I, you know, youknow, if I call 1000, then I'll
get 10. You know what I mean?
And I think there is a place forthat for sure. But I think some
of the art and the craft aroundthe sales side is how do you
leverage your network? How doyou get into, instead of cold

(10:39):
into a warm setting where youcan have a good, least a good
opportunity to at least have thetime for them to hear you out? I
mean, act, then, you know, wehad been hit by 400 million spam
calls, and you know, peopleknocking on your door and
sending you junk mail, and allthe different things that that

(10:59):
you get today, or it justimmediately turns you off to
anything really, back then itwas it quite a bit different. If
somebody was walking door todoor like, you know, in the
neighborhood, you probably wouldsomebody who would probably talk
to you, but I don't think I everreally did that. I was always
working to try to get more softand more warm type connections,

(11:19):
which I think in my view is amuch better way to spend your
time. And picking up the phoneor working your parents or doing
those things and spending yourtime trying to get to leads or
places where business is a lotmore likely to happen. So I
don't know if I ever really feltcomfortable and in a cold

(11:40):
setting, like, like back thenand trying to overcome an
objection like that. I mean,certainly there's training that,
here's what you should say, andsome canned answer. But I think
if you start doing that, youjust become a commodity, and
it's really difficult to reallyhave any success.

Mordecai Rosenberg (12:00):
Yeah, I think you're making a really
important point. Because, youknow, our industry, you know,
multifamily. I feel like a lotof people. I mean, the way I
grew up in sales, like coldcalling was just how you did it,
or you it's just the way the wayin and you know, it's very easy
for someone new to think, right?
The only way to get into thisbusiness is to be really good at

(12:21):
cold calling, right? And thenyou also have the idea of like,
well, it's a numbers game, youknow, you make 100 calls, you
get, you know, five calls back,and maybe you have one
conversation that just becomeslike, you know, just chugging
along. But the idea that youcould be in excellent faith, the
date you can you can take analternative approach, which is

(12:43):
to go war, right, and try toinvest your time and trying to
get that warm introduction. Andall of a sudden, your one warm
introduction is worth, you know,I don't know, 500 cold leads.

Craig Branton (12:56):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, I think so. I mean, your
odds, you know, we could talkabout this concept, I think
it's, it's one of my favoritestalked about, which is fee
versus likelihood. And I thinkas you're young, and you're
getting into the business,people get fee blind, and on low
percentage deals, and they endup spending a lot of time on

(13:16):
them. And I don't want to gothat direction yet. But I think
that's an kind of an interestingthing to talk about. And one
thing that I wish I would haveunderstood better younger, and
almost everybody I talked tofeels the exact same way. But
getting back to the warm. Imean, there's so many different
ways today where you can findnetworks. I mean, obviously,

(13:37):
you've got LinkedIn, which isstill a fairly cold way to get
around. But I just, you know,people, I think people when they
look around, I mean, obviously,if you're brand new to
commercial real estate, it makesit a little harder. But I can
assure you that if you areyounger, in commercial real
estate, there's also a lot ofyounger people at different

(13:58):
firms, maybe in differentpositions that you can start to
network with that are in similarsituations. And I certainly
can't say that you can't do itwithout cold calling. Because I
think that's a component of whatyou what you just need to do,
because it's hard to fill yourday 100% of the time, brand new
in the business without beingoutbound. But I think the craft

(14:21):
and the art is trying to buildrelationships. And in order to
do that, you have to pick up thephone, you have to be, you know,
willing to meet people and youhave to be likeable because I
think generally people, youknow, they they really want to
do business with people thatthey like and that they trust.
And you don't have those twothings when you're cold, right.

(14:41):
Like you have those things whenyou're coming in through a
referral or you have those, youknow, things if you're dealing
with a broker who's got alisting that recommends you
right. And those two things toyour point are much more
powerful than getting somebodyon the phone that may or may not
Want to transact? They have noidea who you are.

Mordecai Rosenberg (15:03):
Right?
Right. And and, you know, 20years ago or maybe even 10 years
ago, I don't know that if youcall someone call if you called
someone cold and you picked upthe phone, maybe they weren't
interested. Right. But today, italmost becomes like it's
offensive with the hall. Youknow, it can be you can it's
just a different a differentlevel of sensitivity that people

(15:25):
have to Yes, certainly.

Craig Branton (15:31):
Yeah. And I think especially like in, you know,
especially in Denver, you know,I talked to, you know, people
that own multifamily properties,and they try as hard as they can
to get their numbers away fromco star or a lot of these other
groups, because literally, theirphones don't stop ringing with
brokers trying to ask, you know,explain to them sales that that

(15:53):
were done, or rents that they'regetting in the area, which, you
know, I understand, like, youdefinitely have to come with
information, or you've got nochance. But a lot of these, a
lot of these markets have justgot flooded with brokers, and I
think, especially in themultifamily side of things, it's
just been such a hot market forso long, for at least the last

(16:14):
10 years, that it's, you know, Ithink we've just got flooded
with all kinds of brokers. And Ithink, you know, situations like
are happening now, which a lotof brokers haven't been through
any cycles, like this before,has a tendency to kind of weed
out, you know, maybe the brokersthat aren't as talented as some
of the others. And, you know, Ithink it's part of the natural,

(16:36):
just progression of real estatecycles in general. Yeah. But my
point is, is that, you know, Ithink these people are fatigued,
you know, by a lot of inbound,whether it be brokers or just
everybody else that's trying toget hold them, especially as we
all know, around election timewith texts and calls that are
coming in just 24/7. So I dothink it's really important to

(16:59):
try to figure out how toleverage your network and at at,
you know, when you get going totry to find your way into these
into these discussions andconversations with people
through a warm channel.

Mordecai Rosenberg (17:11):
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And you
mentioned mean, I mean, a lot oftime on the knives, but but one
of the things about those, thosenights is that you had the
demonstrable differentiation,you could take your knife, and
cut a penny cutter out, right?
And you could say, alright,like, listen, Sir but can you

(17:34):
take out your steak knife and dodo this. Right. And and so
that's so that's also powerful,right? So once you you need to
the warm lead through the warmlead gets you in the door. But
now you have a demonstrablydifferentiated product that you
can offer.

Craig Branton (17:53):
That's expensive.
And that's the flip side to it,is that they were expensive. And
I would say that, that wasprobably the biggest obstacle. I
think back in 1893, I thinkfirst set of steak knives, you
were probably over $1000 bucks.
Wow. Yeah, it was like it's oneof the more higher end knife
sets I think on the market. Now.
I'm sure that's changed. Butback then, I mean, you were

(18:16):
talking double or maybe eventriple what the cost was. And,
and that's, that's a tough thingto kind of sell when you're in
your friend's parents kitchentable, trying to sell them, you
know, $1,000 or more steakknives so that it gets you out
of your comfort zone? Let's putit that way.

Mordecai Rosenberg (18:41):
Yeah. So can you translate that at all to
say, multifamily, right, whereagain, you have to sell a loan,
you know, multifamily loan, orto offer investment sales
services, but let's say on thedebt side, that's also to a lot
of people who you talk to,right, so you get the warm

(19:01):
intro, but now you're you're inthe door, and I say, alright, I
have a knife to sell you, right,because it's perceived as a
commodity. If it's Fannie Mae,Freddie Mac, you know, you need
unless it's some kind of aspecialty product. So is there
any way to demonstrate like, howdo you demonstrate
differentiated value?

Craig Branton (19:24):
So, yeah, so I think one thing that that we've
always done is we first of all,we prepared ourselves to really
understand our product. And, youknow, one of the things that
I've always told my team is thatif you don't know the answer to
a question, you say, you don'tknow the answer, but you're
gonna go find the answer. Thenumber one thing that you can
get caught on early on, is ifyou're winging it, and because a

(19:47):
lot of times when you're whenyou're getting going in this
business, you're talking topeople that have done these
loans before, right? They mayhave more experienced than you
in a lot of cases, right? Andwhether or not they're testing
you or not. If they asked you aquestion and you don't have the
answer and you say somethingthat is wrong. You've lost all
your credibility, whateverlittle bit you had, right? And
so the one thing that we're verycareful with is that we always

(20:10):
do what we say we're going to doearly in the in the
relationship, whether or notit's okay, hey, could you get me
some comps? Or Oh, could youprovide me some, you know, a
list of items that we need,everything we say we're going to
do, we do it early, and westart, even if it's just little
things, oh, I'll call you backbetween this time, or oh, I'll
do this, just so you candemonstrate that you can do

(20:30):
things. The one thing that Ithink this industry lacks,
especially in the commodity, youknow, is is execute, the
execution is all over the place,right. And I think, as you get,
you know, into bigger losses,and you get better, and you've
been doing a lot longer, thatbecomes less of an issue. But
going going back to our pointprior to getting on the call,
it's all about reps, and it'sbeing transparent with people.

(20:55):
And it's one thing to say you'regoing to be transparent, and
you're going to execute and doall these different things. But
setting expectations is one ofthe hardest things to do in our
business in the beginning,right? Because those
expectations may not always bewhat the person wants to hear,
right. And so, but but a lot oftimes, you know, people try to

(21:17):
set expectations too high,whether it be loan amount, or
what how much they can get, orwhat how low of an interest rate
they can get, and then they missright and, and a lot of times, I
think coming out of the gate,you have to be your ability to
set reasonable expectations thatboth sides can agree are
reasonable and fair as a goodstarting place. And then talking
about ways that you can improvethe deal or things that could

(21:40):
potentially be risks to thedeal, and being able to see
those early and explain those toborrowers upfront. Early on in
the deal. I think it issomething that separated our
team early on, I think peoplethat really appreciate that. And
they know that if I tell themsomething that generally they
can, you know, they can counton. And I think that's, that's

(22:01):
where we started to have a lotof success early on.

Mordecai Rosenberg (22:04):
Yeah. Yeah, I've thought about that before
that, that it's the product thatwe sell, I feel like there's so
much variability in terms ofwhere it can end up. And what
can go wrong between the timethat you're kind of signing up
on the dotted line. And thensomebody you're actually closing
you there's very few productsthat have that kind of
variability, like even somethings are binary, like you

(22:26):
could say, alright, I'm applyingfor life insurance, and they
give you your premium amount.
And then they if they do ahealth, they do a health tests
and blood tests to check youout. And then they might say,
actually, now you're not gonnaqualify your but you know what,
you kind of know that going in,here's the amount of things that
can go go wrong. It's like,well, we didn't realize that
there's this commercial spacethat has a little more square

(22:48):
footage than we thought it did,right? Or cap rates could jump
or interest rates could jump,like there's so much
variability. And so that job ofmanaging expectations, it's, um,
right, I wonder if it's probablymaybe some of the most difficult
expectations to manage, youknow, in our business.

Craig Branton (23:13):
Yeah, and I would agree. I mean, I think the crazy
thing about it, though, is thata lot of these deals kind of end
up where you're where they'realways going to end up, right? I
mean, there's certain thingsright, I mean, it's your ability
up front to kind of have be ableto see where these deals are
going to end up, whether it'slooking forward on a rent roll,
looking at expiration dates on a20 unit deal to see all I'm all

(23:34):
of a sudden maybe going to havemore vacancy than I thought or
going through the agereceivables up front and seeing
if there's tenants that arehaving slow pace or could have
slow pace, or I'm just givingyou a couple of basic examples
like that we learned in the SPLspace, a lot of those deals kind
of end up where they weredestined to end up there problem

(23:56):
is, is that either theoriginator or the borrower, or
the combination of the two mayhave saw it differently or
didn't, wasn't weren't able tosee some of the potential
issues. And and certainly that'snot a perfect science, but goes
back to your point with justexpectations that if you're
unable to set reasonableexpectations, and that deal ends

(24:17):
up somewhere different, that's adifficult proposition.

Mordecai Rosenberg (24:21):
Yeah. Right.
And that gets into those reps,right? It's just the more you
see, the more the moreconfidence you get, because
you've just seen more thingsthat can go wrong. So you can
see around the corner moreeasily.

Craig Branton (24:34):
That's 100%.
Right. Yeah. I mean, and I thinkthat's where younger people in
this business originators, thelike really can benefit from
utilizing, you know, reallyasking a lot of questions on
these deals upfront before youget in touch with the borrower.
We always think, you know, whatcould this borrower possibly ask
us and think about it from theirperspective? And I would go and

(24:57):
I would tried to figure outevery answer that I wasn't sure
of that they could ask, right.
And as a younger guy and guy inthe business, that's what we
would do, I never wanted to geton the phone with the idea that
they could ask me something thatI just flat out wouldn't know
the answer to within theunderwriting or why we're doing

(25:17):
something. And so I thinkutilizing, you know, internal
support, and you know, if youhave a mentor in the business,
and when you're young, it's justreally important that you really
understand have a good grasp ofwhat you're doing early on. So
you don't have those issueswith, you know, setting
unrealistic expectations andgetting caught. Because there's

(25:38):
in this business, I mean,there's kind of goes back to the
cold call, warm call thing alittle bit as it relates to
percentages. But if you've got10 deals that are going great,
but you've got one deal, that'sa mess, that one deal takes all
of your energy, more so than the10 combined. Because you're
worried about what you said, orwhat's going to happen, or what

(26:00):
the brokers gonna say, or, youknow, you've got a lot of people
in these transactions that arecounting on you, and the
sleepless nights, and, and, andall of those things are all
related to typically the onedeal that's going sideways. And
sometimes you can't, there'snothing you can do like in these
markets that we're dealing withnow. I mean, read trades and
things, that's just part ofwhat's happening right now. But

(26:22):
in normal markets, you know,when things go sideways, because
of the debt, it can stop you inyour tracks. And so I think
that's another thing that wehave learned, as we've gotten a
little bit more experienced isthat we don't take on things
that have, you know, areasonable chance of going
sideways. Because of that,right, I think you become more

(26:43):
selective in what you take on,which is a skill. I think that
brokers not only mortgage on thedebt side, but in the sales side
are going to learn now. Ifyou've got sellers that are
unreal, on realistic, and youspend a bunch of time and money
on listing those properties,you've probably just wasted a
lot of everybody's time that youcould have been focused on

(27:03):
something else.

Mordecai Rosenberg (27:05):
Yeah.

Craig Branton (27:07):
And that's, that, that's another thing that I
think you'll learn as you'vebeen in the business for awhile.

Mordecai Rosenberg (27:15):
Yeah, it's, I think that touches on what you
mentioned before that fee versuslikelihood, um, can you can you
dive into that a little more insure what that means.

Craig Branton (27:27):
Yep. So like, for example, like we started prior
to really getting kind of deepinto the multifamily business
where it's a little easier todetermine fee versus likelihood.
Because you know, if you're inan agency space, you can kind of
tell what, you know what thelikelihood of a deal is a little
bit easier. But when you firststart off in the business, so
let's say for example, you getthat call, right, and you're

(27:49):
cold calling, and you finallyget a guy or gal that that as a
deal that, you know, let's sayfor example, here's a self
storage development in atertiary market, and you're
like, Wow, this is a $20 milliondeal. If I can close this deal,
I can make a point, which is$200,000. Okay, my average deal
that I'm doing right now is inthe two to $3 million range,

(28:10):
look at this opportunity, right?
And then, as you peel back thelayers, and you're like, well,
there's a lot of land for salein that market. That's a
problem. But point is, is let'ssay you're taking that $200,000
fee? Well, you may only have a10% likelihood of that deal
closing, which equates to a$20,000 fee, right? Versus you

(28:32):
go into your normal sweetspot.
Let's say you go to an agencydeal that you know, you can sign
up, that's a 30 $30,000 fee,let's just say a smaller deal.
That as an 80, or 90% likelihoodof closing. Well, that equates
to about a $20,000 fee. Well,which which one do you want to

(28:54):
do? Right? Do you want to spendall of this time and energy on a
deal that's got a very lowlikelihood of closing just and I
think you get you get, you canget the blind. When you're
starting that, whoa, I got thisbig opportunity. This, I'm going
to make my name here. But whatyou don't yet realize is that
this deal is got a pretty lowchance of going whether or not

(29:19):
you're actually going to win thedeal because there's 10 other
people that are looking at it,or if it's even financeable, or
if the borrowers or buyersexpectations are even close to
what the actual market wouldproduce for a loan. And so
there's all these things thatthat make this deal challenging.
And I think when you're younger,you hang on to that, right you

(29:40):
hang on to this big fee, youwant to make your name you want
to make that big fee. And thennow you may have spent who knows
how much time instead of tryingto go after your core business
on deals that have a much higherlikelihood where you may have
been able to go originate orexecute multiple deals in the
time that you've spent lookingat Blue Planet blueprints have a

(30:00):
self storage deal in a farmlandsomewhere, right? And I use that
example because one of the guyson my team, Chris, he had that
same situation where I was like,Chris, this deals with chance,
you know, it was a self storagedevelopment deal. And you know
that when you're trying to do adeal like that, and you're
young, guess what, you're notthe only person that borrowers

(30:23):
talking to they're talking toevery other bank, they're
talking to everybody that'lltalk to them, right. So. So I
think as you as you, asespecially now as we head into
times that are tricky. We allknow that time is your number
one asset, right. And I thinkyour ability to protect your
time is right now is veryimportant in keeping all the

(30:44):
clutter in the mess and thedeals that go sideways, out of
your head working and focusingon deals that are solid, that
you know that you can, that youcan close, with a high
likelihood, which are deals thatyou can rate lock right now is
really the best use of time. AndI think as you get into this
business more and more, andyou've got more and more loan

(31:05):
opportunities that are in frontof you, and you're not just
looking at one maybe once a weekor once a month, and you've
actually got options, you reallystart to see that more clearly.
But I think a lot of people whenthey're just starting, I think
it happens to all of us, youknow, just get fee blind and
potentially, and maybe that's aprocess that you just need to
kind of go through on your own.
But it was one thing for me thatwe always kind of think about

(31:28):
before we take on a project.
That's one calculation, wealways kind of have in the back
of our mind.

Mordecai Rosenberg (31:35):
Yeah, I heard a sales coach one time say
that salespeople like to getHigh on Hopium,

Craig Branton (31:43):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mordecai Rosenberg (31:45):
Yeah, just like, you know, hoping that that
is I've got this $20 milliondeal or $2 million deal, right,
that that someone's talking tome about? You're already
counting your your commissioncheck.

Craig Branton (31:56):
Yeah, that's right.

Mordecai Rosenberg (31:57):
Yeah, I think it is a good exercise for
people to do like a lot ofpeople, they'll keep their
pipeline, maybe it's in aspreadsheet, or however they
keep it. And, and lots of times,it's just Alright, what's the
dollar amount of the loans?
Okay. But to, to then go andsay, Alright, first of all, like
what's expected, you know,revenue off of this, this this
deal, but then to apply thatpercentage of likelihood. Right.

(32:19):
When we went when I was when Iwas running, you know, that FHA
division at Greystone, weapplied that with our with our
pipeline, right, because we'dhave this huge pipeline, and
we'd say, Oh, this is amazing,this huge pipeline, but then we
go and we'd apply likelihoods ofclosing. And until something was
actually in closing, we didn'tgive it 90% chances of, of

(32:42):
closing, yeah, even if it's anunderwriting, or it was that it
was that at HUD, right. And ifyou're just having I mean, I
hear lots of youngersalespeople, they'll say, oh,
yeah, I'm talking to these guys,they've got you know, they have
this $9 million deal are gonnagive me a shot at it. If you're
just having talks about apotential deal that someone
might send you numbers on, like,that's like a .05% chance?

Craig Branton (33:09):
Right. And I think that's part of the trick
is trying to figure out whatthat likelihood is. And without,
you know, having gone throughthat process, it may be a little
harder to see, right, because asa younger originator, you know,
maybe you haven't closed a dealwith somebody. Well, that's,
that's the first thing, right?
If you've never closed a dealwith anybody before, your
likelihood goes way down, right?

(33:31):
And then, but a lot of whatyou're uncomfortable asking
early, I'm don't even thinktwice, like, for example, like,
you know, you get you get anopportunity. I mean, we know
what we can do we know what thebanks can do, why not have a
conversation about it? Right?
Like, who else you know, are youtalking to in this in this
situation? Right. And I thinkit's really important to do it

(33:51):
when you're dealing with theagencies. Because, you know, one
of the things where you'vegotten caught, we'd gotten
caught before when we didn't askthat question is, we may be in
for a discount for Friday. Andthen all of a sudden, two days
later, somebody else comes infor a discount. Well, you just
did your client a disservice bynot clearing the market, because
Friday is now like, well, we'repencils down on that deal,

(34:13):
right? Because now we've got twosellers that are chasing it,
teller services that are chasingit. And so I think even though
that conversation is maybe alittle harder than what people
want to have up front, I thinkunderstanding your competition
and is is a really importantpart of trying to figure out
what that likelihood is. Becauseat the end of the day, like

(34:33):
there's there's definitelyplenty people out there that are
not afraid to waste your time,right? Like I mean, they're not
afraid to send you something andgo have you dig yourself up just
in the event. You know, maybeyou can find something maybe
they've done a deals with 10 ofyour 10 deals with another one
of your competitor but they'reokay with you going out and

(34:53):
trying to see if you can findthat one better deal. There's
certainly people like that. AndI think in Anytime that we find
out that there's another sellerservicer involved in a deal, and
we can't get the exclusive westop, yeah. Because if you can't
make your case as to why in acommodity business as to why
that group should go with you ornot go with you, you're kind of

(35:15):
fighting a losing battle, in myopinion. And so I think that's
just kind of important is tryingto figure out what they're doing
who they're talking to. And alot of times, you can kind of
tell right, you don't evennecessarily need to ask the
question in some cases, becauseif they're asking for a deal
that's got no prepay, and you'retaking it on in an agency role

(35:36):
well, in the hopes that maybethey'll take your deal anyway,
that's the other thing is kindof learning, you know, younger
ones, especially in thecommercial businesses. They'll
tell you what they want. And alot of times, you know, you just
go think you know, what theywant, and you go get them a
bunch of stuff that you thinkthey want, which isn't exactly
what they want, and then you'vejust wasted a lot of your time,

(35:58):
right? Whether or not they saythey want flexibility, and you
go get him a deal with 10 yearsa yield maintenance, or whatever
the case may be. But I thinkit's getting back to the point
of the competition. And just thelikelihood i i just think it's
important that you have open andhonest conversations with with
your borrowers early on to justreally kind of understand where

(36:19):
you stand on the deal.

Mordecai Rosenberg (36:21):
Yeah. Yeah.
The You said earlier that, youknow, why people do business
with you? You know, a lot of itwill come down to trust also.
Yeah. And I think anotherinteresting framework for any
conversation you're having witha prospective client is this is
an, it's a trust buildingexercise. Yeah. And I remember

(36:41):
there is a book that Sean Coveywrote Stephen Covey's son called
The Speed of Trust. He talksabout how to build trust and how
to rebuild trust. And he says,it comes down to a very simple
formula, which is make apromise, keep a promise. Right?
You do that once, right? You do.

(37:06):
Like you said, before you say, Ican give you these cops deliver
the cops, right? And so if, ifyou realize that that what
you're doing here is your goalis to is to make a promise and
keep a promise. Right? ThenThen, then you can. That's what
you can offer, right? You canoffer those things. And if you
don't, if you're not sure, youcan make a promise and say,

(37:26):
Look, I can't make this promise.
But here's what I can I can do.

Craig Branton (37:29):
That's right.
That's right. I think that thatis the most important thing,
when you have a new relationshipis being able to build that
trust one, like you said, onepromise at a time, right. And if
for some reason you missed that,you do your best to explain why,
or you maybe a circumstance thatgot in the way, or just be
communicating, you know, alongthe way, and I think just people

(37:49):
appreciate just transparency,it's much better if you promise
something a week later, and youknow, you're not gonna hit it
just to have that conversation,you know, in between, even
though maybe it's a littleharder to have than, you know,
dropping a bomb the last day.

Mordecai Rosenberg (38:05):
Yeah. Yeah, so switching gears a little bit.
So the other one part of salesis client retention is
maintaining that relationshipwith with with clients.
Normally, there's a way youknow, when you're in a
transactional environment, when,you know, loan rates are low,

(38:27):
and they're operating, you know,that they have loans that a
refinance bubble coming down thepike, or maybe they're looking
to buy or maybe looking lookingto sell, there's a basis for
those conversations. There areother markets, like the markets
where the market we're in today,a bit, which is where he's
sitting at the end of October2022, which is a bit frozen, you

(38:50):
know, their interest rates havehave jumped by by your several
100 basis points over the lastsix months. So you don't have a
lot of sales happening. Youdon't have a lot of refinancings
happening. How do you thinkabout client retention and
staying in touch with clients inin, in this kind of an
environment?

Craig Branton (39:10):
So I think now's the like one of the best times
to really get yourself educatedon the market. And in staying
away from making predictions, Ithink that's one of the things
that everybody wants you to do.
But really, I think justeducating based on facts like
here's where the Feds at, here'swhere the expectation that
that's going and really becominga resource for your clients. And

(39:34):
that is where you're going to. Ithink if you find that you're
talking to a lot of clientsright now that they find you a
good resource, if you're nottalking to clients right now.
You probably need to up yourgame a little bit right and
really understand what they'rethinking and what what you can

(39:54):
do for them because at the endof the day, we are acting as
advisors in a lot of ways to ourclients, and that may not just
be an advising on an on a givenloan. Right. I mean, the other
thing is, at least on theCushman side is Cushman
Greystone side is learning whatour competition is doing talking
to as many local banks andlenders that are in our space

(40:17):
and in our competition set toreally understand how they're
doing business as well, ifthey're doing business. And
again, becoming more and moreimportant to your client,
because a lot of times thesepeople especially syndicators,
or maybe, you know, groups thatwork in small companies, they
don't have the amount of dataand the amount of exposure to

(40:39):
the markets that we do. Right.
And, and I think that a lot ofthem just, they kind of just
want to get on the phone andtalk about it, right, and maybe
what they're thinking or tryingto figure out how they want to
be thinking. And I think beingable to really kind of dig in
and educate yourself, whetherit's just reading the Wall
Street Journal, or Bloomberg, orwhatever it is that you want to

(41:02):
read. You know, and just reallytrying to be educated, you know,
without making predictions, ofcourse, because that's where I
think you can get in trouble.
And just talking to brokers andtalking to clients and just
really trying to stay relevant.
Because eventually when it turnson the people that are a good
resource for their clients,those are going to be the first
people that they call.

Mordecai Rosenberg (41:23):
Hmm. Yeah, that's a great point. So in some
ways, this is a greatopportunity, people are willing
to pick up the phone, they'reright, they're not, they're not
getting the same number of coldcalls for refinancings.

Craig Branton (41:36):
Right? And yeah, and it's it, maybe it's cold or
warm, but it's I think it's, youknow, I think you got to
somewhat take your sales hatsoff in certain situations where,
you know, deals are not likelyto happen, because it can make
you make yourself a lot moreapproachable. If you have a
conversation with somebody, butit's, you know, it's a call just
to kind of, hey, check in, how'sthis deal going? You know, or

(41:56):
Hey, aren't you happy, you didthat 2.6% rate last year, like,
I mean, and just kind of stayingin front them without the sales
hat on, and trying to build thatrelationship so that they feel
comfortable in calling you ifthey've got questions, or maybe
they've got questions on theirloan, or they've got questions
just on the market in general, Ithink it makes you a lot, a lot
more approachable. And a lot ofmarket cycles aren't really like

(42:19):
that you don't really have timeto have those kinds of
conversations with people thatyou maybe aren't transacting
with at the at the time. So Ifind myself doing that a lot,
and just reaching out to clientsand just having discussions.
And, and I think the other thingis, what's really powerful in
our business, is if you canadvise a client and to maybe

(42:39):
maybe it's your deals, not theit, whether it's not the right
time, or just whether it's notthe right deal, based on what
they're looking for, if you cankind of help them guide them to
that decision. And you can, it'sokay, if you don't get every
deal, right, it's much betterto, again, be seen as an advisor

(42:59):
versus somebody that'sconstantly trying to sell you
something. And so I think thatthat's one thing that I've
always tried to do with myclients. And again, I mean, we
were doing Freddie Mac SPL, whenFreddie Mac SPL was the best
deal in town. Most cases, right,so we were pushing that hard.
But it wasn't always the rightdeal. And so I think being able

(43:20):
to, you know, have thatrelationship with someone just
builds trust. And I think thatbuilds, that's where that's
where the referral businessstarts. And everything kind of
comes from from those types ofrelationships.

Mordecai Rosenberg (43:31):
Yeah, you know, interesting is, I think,
to be an advisor, I think thatis, that's incredibly valuable
if you can be a real adviser toto a client. But I think the
other role that you can take,because some people might say,
Well, yeah, but what am I goingto advise, I have no idea where
the where the markets going,like, where's that right? The
other way you can do it is thatyou can ask them to just the

(43:54):
client advisor to you, right,because I think, you know,
people like to receive advice.
But sometimes even more thanreceiving advice, they like to
give advice. If I recall, if Iwere giving you ideas on on Oh,
like, you know, you're wantingto try selling this, I'm that's
fine. But if I called you andasked me, I said, Look, I want
to get your opinion, like, youknow, where should I be focusing
today? Like because, you know,we're where the market is like,

(44:17):
but to look at the climatething. You know, here there's
talk of the recession orrecession. We have all this
inflation, you're experiencingit in the multifamily market,
like what's going through yourmind like what are you thinking
about? How are you preparing fora recession? Like what are the
things that you're worriedabout? What are things keeping

(44:38):
you up at night? And then letthem kind of like tell you to
open up to what they're what,what is a multifamily owner
worried about an inflationaryenvironment? Are they worried
about their low maturity? Arethey worried about payroll
costs, skyrocketing insurancecosts, fuel, you know, gas costs
right and get them to, if Iadvise you, and you can,

(45:03):
depending on the relationship,like you can say, like, look,
you know, you see what I'm whatI'm, how can you how can I be if
you're in my shoes like how canI be of service like no Given
that, what else can I do havevalue, but really letting the
client be, the adviser to you?
What do you think about that?

Craig Branton (45:22):
Well, so I agree.
And I think everything that youjust discussed is, is typically
when you have an open endedconversation, I think with
somebody right now, there's somuch stress, like, I mean, the
fundamentals of multifamily areobviously very good right now,
right. And the people that areconcerned are the people that
have floating rate loans or loanmaturities. And what I find is

(45:43):
that all of those topics thatyou just described come up in
just about every conversationthat I have prompted or
unprompted, because a lot ofthem just kind of want to send
it to somebody that's like,their, you know, somebody that
they you know, is in thebusiness that understands,
right. So it's, it's a littlebit of that, and one of the
things that I really like to tryto do is talk to them about how

(46:04):
their underwriting deals or howthey're looking. Like, to me,
that is like the most kind ofpowerful information, you know,
like, how are you dealing withrent growth in your pro forma?
Like, why right, like, how areyou underwriting, you know,
potentially increase inexpenses? I've noticed that a
lot of management companies haveslipped a little bit here, at
least in Denver, how are yougetting your arms around an exit

(46:27):
cap at all? Or are you gettingyour arms around? Can you, you
know, are you how, what, whattypes of challenges are you
seeing in raising money? Right,I like to hear those kinds of
things, right. Like, there's alot of fixed income alternatives
out there that are low risk, alot of these multi deals are
still even at IO are still very,very thin on cash on cash. And I

(46:48):
think IRRs are, you know, one ofthe things that everybody looks
at in a pro forma when they'rethinking about investing in a
deal are, are really hard topredict right now, I think the
only thing you can really counton is the cash on cash. And so I
love to be able to open up thepro formas with people. And
really, because I think that'swhere you can really get into

(47:10):
their like mindset. How they'rethinking, right? And you know,
are you thinking short? Are youthinking long? Like, if you talk
to anybody a year ago, everybodywas like, well, we're doing a
bridge deal. We're a two orthree year deal, like, What are
you talking about? We've got20%, rent growth, like rates are
two and a half percent, like,you know, we're gonna turn this

(47:30):
thing with a exit cap of 475.
And we're gonna bump rents, andyou know, we're gonna make it 20
IRR, 2.2, multiple two years?

Mordecai Rosenberg (47:40):
yeah.

Craig Branton (47:42):
That's unfortunately not going to
happen right now. At least.

Mordecai Rosenberg (47:46):
Yeah. Yeah.
This is how I always would sellFHA financing. There's a lot of
people. I mean, there's a lot tocomplain about with FHA
financing. I mean, it takes ittakes six, nine, twelve months
to get your loan. Yeah, thereare, you know, the reserve
requirements might be higher,but it's 35 year old self
amortizing debt. Yeah. And whatwhat, you know, what I used to

(48:10):
say, you know, is that yourmultifamily? The fundamentals
are good, right, like the onerisk that you have his loan
maturity, okay. And your yourhope is that when your loan
matures, it doesn't happen to beat a time where there's no
liquidity in the marketplace.

Craig Branton (48:27):
Yep.

Mordecai Rosenberg (48:28):
So and so now I'm calling everyone up and
saying, See, I told you so.

Craig Branton (48:33):
Exactly, I know!

Mordecai Rosenberg (48:35):
Yeah, that is your to remind people also of
like, what like, remember whatyour mindset was, like, two
years ago, when he said, when Iasked you about longer term
debt, and you said, No, I'm justdoing a bridge loan three years,
it's gonna be it's gonna befine. There's something to be
said for even, you know, even inthis environment, let's say if
you wanted to be selling FHAdebt, the bottom line is like,

(48:57):
you're not getting your loan foranother, you know, it could be
not nine months or twelvemonths, who knows where interest
rates are at that time, reallybad, then you don't have to
close up on that loan. But thebusiness plan or having some
amount of your debt that'sthat's long term self
advertising, that that allowsyou to sleep I mean, that allows
you to sleep at night even inmaybe you have to take some

(49:18):
lumps today, but I don't knowsleep is a pretty valuable
commodity.

Craig Branton (49:24):
I know! Yeah, I mean, it's, it's, you know, I
think, generally speaking, youknow, it's multifamily is always
a balance of flexibility or orcertainty, right. And I think,
pretty much just about everybodythat's had flexibility or
floating rate loans or lessprepays over the past 10 years
is probably done better. Justbecause they can access capital

(49:46):
easier, paid less thanprepayment penalties, maybe had
more flexibility to sell. But wealso were in this unbelievably
low period of interest rates. WeI did a presentation for some
good has been commercial brokerslast week. So we're doing some
digging on interest rates, butkind of goes to some of the
conversations I've had withinvestors. But from 1992 to

(50:09):
2012, the day over day, 10 yearTreasury rate, average up, I
literally scrolled every singleday, from 1992 to 2012, the
average tenure interest rate was5.08%.

Mordecai Rosenberg (50:23):
Wow,

Craig Branton (50:24):
From 2012 to 2022, that was 2.08%. So in the
last 30 years, you've got twovery, very different sets of
circumstances related tointerest rates. And so a lot of
the conversations I'm havingwith people that have been in
the business a lot longer, theyhave a much different viewpoint
of where things are going. A lotof people think that, you know,

(50:47):
you know, interest rates arejust too low for too long,
right. And we're used to dealingwith four or 5% 10 year
treasuries, right. And thenthere's maybe some people that
haven't gone through that, thatare along the mindset of Well,
hey, you know, we've just risen400 basis points or whatever,
500 basis points, if you'retalking about the Fed funds
rate, in the last 12 months,well recession, we're going to

(51:08):
come back down and you know,maybe we want shorter debt,
right, versus some of the olderschool folks that may say, Well,
you know, we may be here for awhile. So those are just kind of
some different conversations.
And people that have dealt withdifferent market climates, have
different risk tolerances, orjust maybe never expected it to
go up this quickly. But, again,just kind of some interesting

(51:29):
kind of viewpoints of peoplethat have maybe been around for
a little while versus, you know,some of the people that are
just, you know, within the last10 years in this last cycle.

Mordecai Rosenberg (51:41):
Yeah, yeah, I heard an interesting
statistic, actually, by theCushman economist, but that that
the CPI growth, if you look atCPI, and you strip out shelter
costs, you know, renting what itcosts to live, your expense
costs have actually gone downhas started to go down, but rent

(52:04):
costs that have been keeping itkeeping it high. Right. And I
was thinking about that, becausein some ways, every time you
have a transaction on amultifamily property, like after
every time it sells, that meansthere's gonna have to be another
rent bump, because someone'sbuying it for upside. Yeah. So
like, you could say that, thatyou could see how keeping

(52:27):
interest rates high, like they,if they were trying to slow down
multifamily transactionalactivity, like there would be,
you can see how they can comeafter multifamily, specifically
given the percentage of the costand that, you know, but that
kind of gets to Alright, well,what can you do today? Right,
immediately another thing thatyou that another, another avenue
of conversation, which isalright, look, we know, we don't

(52:49):
have interest rates at two and ahalf percent anymore. Okay. But
you have, but what are youroptions today? Right? Like,
first let's let's, you know,it's like radical acceptance.
Like, let's just accept thatthis is the environment that
we're in right now. Yes,interest rates are higher, but
does it make sense to put ontenure money for three, five,
your money or whatever, youknow, I'm in this market, and

(53:09):
maybe you have to maybe have toput some cash in it, but is
there you know, maybe scenarioplaying, just see how they're
thinking in different scenarios,helping them think through those
options?

Craig Branton (53:20):
Yeah, I mean, I would tell you that like, just
in my conversation, it's reallyhard for people to stomach six
and a quarter 10 year deal rightnow. It's just, that's a tough,
tough thing to do. Just based onhow quickly this has gone up,
right? I think we've been livingin this 30 days CPI cycle, as I

(53:41):
like to call it, it's like, it'slike the the levels of grief.
Right. So like, the CPI reportcomes out on whatever the 13th
of every month and the firstlike, five, six days, you're
just in disbelief, you're shellshocked, rates just went up 3040
basis points. And then all of asudden, you're you're having new
conversations. So instead of a,you know, 3%, right, now you're

(54:03):
talking in the fours, which ispeople haven't seen in a while.
And then a couple months later,now we're in the fives. And you
know, but point is, is as youget through that 30 day cycle,
the market starts to adjust alittle bit, adjust, adjust. And
then at the end of that, thelast 2025 days in that monthly
cycle, you're like, alright, Ican finally do deals. Again,
people are kind of aware, like,you know, we could still make

(54:25):
this deal kind of stretch andwork. And then the next one
hits, and you're right. And thenit's like, now you're in a new
world, right? Because now theFed doing whatever they're doing
differently based on that data.
And so it's like we've been inthis like, horrible like, from
just horrible in the sense oftrying to do business, this
horrible cycle of this, just theCPI world that we live it and

(54:47):
how that changes how it changesthe climate it literally every
30 days, and it feels like we'rein a new place, and we haven't
had that time just to settle in.
So we're hopeful that maybe wecan find had time sometimes.

Mordecai Rosenberg (55:01):
Yeah. So you want to sign up deals on like
the 20 a day, 20 to 25th dayafter...

Craig Branton (55:07):
That's like the only time you can sign up. You
know, because when rates go up3040 basis points, people don't
do anything then Right, like inthe first few, like people are
like, shocked by it, right. Andit just creates this like shock
in the market. And then peopleneed to hear it enough over and
over again that yeah, there'sstill not this bank that's at
475, when rates have now movedto five and a half they need,

(55:29):
you know, it's just such aprocessing thing that we've had
to go through over and over andover and over again, with Yeah.
And 2022 Ever since really,since January, February, I mean,
it's just been this, this very,very challenging cycle of, and I
think, you know, to your pointearlier, just about, like, you
know, the two differentapproaches you can take as an
originator, you can, you can gotake a vacation right now, a

(55:53):
long one, but you may, you maynever make it back. Right. And
so like, I think the best thingthat at least we're we're trying
to do is we're trying to stayhere, we're in the office where
we're trying to talk to as manypeople as we can, trying to just
absorb data, be a sponge, andtry to be a resource for our
clients. And I think that is,you know, sometimes it's hard to

(56:13):
fill the days and it'sfrustrating. And it's, you know,
it's tough, right, but like,we're all dealing with Wailord
loan volumes that we're used to,but trying to find creative ways
to stay positive. Stay in frontof our clients. We can't always
be positive. I mean, theinformation isn't positive, but
we can try to have a positivespin, like you said, right in
the beginning.

Mordecai Rosenberg (56:35):
yeah, and maybe that's like, you know,
come to a close, maybe whatnot.
Another thing that thatsalespeople should think about
is maybe establishing otheralternative goals also to help
to their day, right? It's not,because if you're if you're
measuring the success of yourdatabase on how many deals you
sign up, you know, these aregoing to be you're gonna have
some disappointing days. Months,right. But if it's like, how

(56:59):
many valuable conversations, howmany clients, can I add value
to, you know, in conversation,and where you're at where that I
can learn from or provided bysuggest, you know, it's because
that I think you're right, thisis, this is a great opportunity,
because a lot of people aren'tgoing to go on vacation and say,
you know, what, I'm out likecalling, you know, call me,

(57:21):
check back in a year, see whatwas going on. Right. And this is
a time when you can, you know,it will separate the wheat from
the chaff. And you can you can,if you're able to add value and
be there consistently for yourclients during now you can you
know, when the market comesback, and then we'll come back,
it's always cyclical, you'rethen then you're they're gonna

(57:44):
remember the value that youprovide it.

Craig Branton (57:48):
I agree. I agree.
And I think, yeah, trying tofind creative ways to add value
to clients and find ways to talkto them and open up to them.
And, you know, I think now's abetter than anytime to find ways
to build relationships. There'smore time for lunches, there's
more time to you know, gettogether than what what is
normal, and it may not bedirectly, you may or may not be

(58:10):
able to see a way to a deal bywhat you're doing in the short
term. But those like you said,it is cyclical, those deals will
come but the relationships nowyou can build and I think
that's, that's what our focus isand trying to stay positive. You
don't want to always be negativeon everything you say, because
then nobody wants to talk toyou, right? You know, you need
to try to be able to, you know,do the best with what we've got,

(58:34):
and I think that's what we'retrying to

Mordecai Rosenberg (58:37):
Yeah, and maybe brokers can also sign up
to sell Cutco knives, you know.

Craig Bra (58:43):
It's a good side job.

Mordecai Rosenberg (58:44):
Yeah. Cuz like no matter what the economy
is, it really feels great to cutthrough a shoe.

Craig Branton (58:51):
Yeah, it does, it does...or a steak!

Mordecai Rosenberg (58:53):
Yeah. Craig.
Well, thank you so much. Thiswas really invaluable,
especially during during thiswild time in the market. So so
tremendous amount of insight. Sothank you so much for your time.

Craig Branton (59:07):
You got it.
Thanks for having me. Iappreciate it.

Mordecai Rosenberg (59:09):
All right.
I'll talk to you soon Craig.

Craig Branton (59:11):
Take care. See ya, Bye.