December 14, 2022 • 54 mins
SUMMARY:
Gideon Gil, Executive Managing Director at Cushman and Wakefield, is interviewed on the origination podcast. Gil talks about his early sales experiences, the importance of storytelling in sales, and how to create a sense of calm for clients during chaotic market conditions. He also discusses the trend towards bigger deals in the multifamily industry, and the role of relationships in closing transactions.
TIMESTAMPS:
0:15 - Introduction to this episode.
1:40 - What Gideon’s earliest sales experience looks like in his life
7:08 - Never Split The Difference
9:42 - What are some of the war stories that come to mind for you?
15:22 - Advice for people who want to get into the industry
20:23 - Presenting deals to an investment committee with 30 years of experience
24:47 - What is the key to telling a good story?
29:39 - How to use social media to get your message out
34:39 - Is there a “one size fits all” answer?
40:43 - The importance of getting ahead of the market in order to be ready when the market breaks
46:55 - Are there any banks or lenders starting to sell loans in distressed markets?
lenders, market, people, loan, client, equity, selling, deals, screen protectors, year, calls, rates, business, borrower, easy, long, sales, chase, interest rates, debt
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Mordecai Rosenberg (00:15):
Hey, it's Mordecai. And welcome back to
the origination podcast, wherewe speak to the top salespeople
and sales leaders in themultifamily industry to try to
understand what separates thetop performers from the rest of
the pack. On this episode, I'llbe speaking with Gideon Gill
Executive Managing Director atCushman and Wakefield. Gideon
(00:36):
has been a prolific producer,and has closed over a billion
dollars of financings in hiscareer. This is a really great
conversation, and we talkedabout so many interesting
topics. One of the things wetalked about is a skill that is
not appreciated enough in sales,and that is storytelling. How do
(00:58):
you tell the right story to aclient? It's not just about
selling the transaction, butabout telling the story. And
we'll get into that. We recordedthis in December of 2022. The
markets are pretty chaotic. Sowe also talked about what's what
do you how do you advise yourclients during this time? How do
(01:20):
you create a sense of calm forthem? What kind of advice can
you give them when there's somany I'm not? I think you'll
really enjoy this conversation.
I certainly did that withoutfurther ado, let's speak with
Gideon. The one and only thegreat Gideon Gill. Welcome to
the origination podcast.
Gideon Gil (01:40):
Good morning, and thank you so much for having me.
Mordecai Rosenberg (01:44):
Awesome.
Well, Gideon, your your, youknow, you're a name brand and
kind of a giant in the, youknow, in the industry in New
York, but you know, like to goback to your to your your
beginning. So, if you have tothink about your earliest sales
experience that comes to mind.
Yeah, and that could be, itcould be when you were in third
(02:06):
grade, it could be high schoolor college or after college or
even current industry. anythingcome to mind for you?
Gideon Gil (02:15):
Well, I probably would say that, it I would
probably say that my it's notnecessary experience, but it
might be more osmosis for myfather. My father and
grandfather ran a jewelrybusiness. And I would always
see, especially with my dad, howprepared and, you know, kind of
(02:35):
never take no for an answer typeof attitude when they were in
business. And that was somethingOh, you know, I kind of liked
the way they did it and sort oflike a firm, but, you know, a
way that got the deal done, butnot necessarily like kind of
being too aggressive aboutthings or overtly aggressive.
And then, you know, over theyears, it's sort of just been
(02:56):
more like kind of developingthose, that comfort and
confidence with communicationskills in order to feel able to
ask people for what you reallywant. And then that's sometimes
the hardest part and being in asales job. It's, it's like
getting to the what do I want?
And what does the other partywant out of that bargain? So
that's something that I continueto work on it refining and
whatever we do,
Mordecai Rosenberg (03:18):
Asking for what you want, right? It sounds
like, such a simple thing. But Iknow you have he's very good at
that. You, my kids. Kids arevery good at asking for what
they want. And I feel likethey've gotten better with
generations. Like, I don't thinkI felt as comfortable asking for
what I wanted from my parents.
Yes, my kids do. I mean,
Gideon Gil (03:38):
I think I mean, if we want to talk about kids and
parents, it's like, you know, Ihave four kids who are basically
all teenagers at this point.
And, you know, not to like knockan entire generation, but I
think we as parents have made itmuch more like comfortable for
the relationship that we havewith our children, you know,
everything. It's like, veryviewed is much more emotive and
(03:58):
sympathetic than I think ourparents and certainly our
grandparents were with their,their children. So yeah, I
definitely agree with that.
Mordecai Rosenberg (04:10):
Yeah, my kids, I have four teenagers and
then 10 year old so definitelysupply a lot. Yeah. So your,
your you mentioned your fatherand your grandfather in the
jewelry store. So what what didthat look like about like, no,
not taking no for an answer, youknow, and I think it's, there's
(04:31):
a balance, right? Because youwant to be on the one hand,
especially in the salesindustry, like there's this idea
of like relentless pursuit,right and and, you know, kind of
just dog ID Yeah, persistence,but yet, you know, if you're on
the other side of it, and someguys like not getting the hint,
right. It's, that's not going tobe great for the relationships.
(04:53):
So what did that what did thatlook like? In terms of not yet
does that mean to not take noand do it delicate diplomacy.
Gideon Gil (05:02):
Yeah. So, so I think some of the things that I've
taken away is, to some degree.
So the family business was wasmore of like a wholesale
business with like, gemstonesand some jewelry and diamonds.
And you know, to some degree,that's a commodity, right. And
not to say that what we do is acommodity, but the parallels are
that we're kind of, we're reallywhat we do on the debt side of
(05:25):
the businesses is really about,you know, it's about capital and
funds, right. And to somedegree, that it is a commodity,
right, it just depends whereit's coming from. And what I
think the biggest takeaways thatI've always seen, you know, at
the earlier age is that thenumber one, I think you want to
figure out how you can connectwith, you know, the customer or
(05:46):
the counterparty that you'reworking with, you know, you
know, on a real, if possible, ona personal level, right. And I
think in our industry, it's,it's really like on the who, you
know, like, who do you know, incommon that we both like and
trust and sort of say like,that's like validation as far as
how, how we can kind of like, goto the next level of this
relationship or conversation. SoI think, you know, I tell to my
(06:10):
team all the time, like, you,you're gonna get good at this
business, like, you're gonnaunderstand how the mechanics
work and how deals get done. Butthen it's going to really be
about how you handle yourselfwith clients in deal situations.
And so taking it back to likethe sales experience, you know,
it does feel like that nottaking no for an answer, I think
(06:32):
really started with just tryingto always keep the door open a
little bit in the conversation,like into, you know, not
Obviously not every engagementresults in a sale or results in
a client signing up with you.
But not taking no could mean,I'll call you in a week, I'll
call you in a month, we'llfollow up well, we'll do
(06:52):
something to kind of keep therelationship building and
moving. And you know, and I'veseen that in my own career, like
where it could be years before arelationship buds and become
something where we're actuallyworking on something live.
Mordecai Rosenberg (07:08):
Yeah. Yeah.
In terms of keeping the dooropen. It's, there's a book
called, never split thedifference. It's a negotiations
book by Chris Voss, who isn't hewas a, you know, when there was
like a bank holed up, and theywere taking hostages, like he
was called in for, like the FBIto negotiate that. So he had an
interesting point, which is thatyou were usually talking to
(07:34):
negotiations like getting toyes, like, how do you get them
to a yes. And his, his strategywas the opposite. It's like, I
want to get them to a no. Right?
And so we'd say, let's, let'ssay in our, in our, in our
industry, right, and you meetwith a client, and they say, oh,
yeah, I'm really loyal to mybroker, like, I've been doing
(07:57):
business with them for 30 years.
Like, I'm just good. So he'ssaying, all right, that's great.
So you probably like there'sprobably nothing that would ever
that I could ever bring to youthat would make you switch.
Right? Say, Well, I don't knowabout that. I mean, I guess, you
know, if you brought me a deal,or if you it's easier for
someone to say no than to sayyes. Right. And they feel more
protect, you know, they feelmore protected, right? So you to
(08:19):
get them to actually kind ofsell it. It's, I guess, like
reverse psychology a little bit.
But to say, there's probablylike, no way you'd ever buy this
gem from us, or this property,you probably never use like,
well, I don't know about that.
Like, don't you never say neveryou guys. Yeah. And actually, I
do have this deal that maybe youguys could look at? Yeah. So the
other side, same with same idea,you know,
Gideon Gil (08:42):
like how you connect? Right? It's, you know,
I think what you're saying is alot of psychology in that right?
As far as, you know, if ifyou're ready kind of come to
that conclusion. That's easy,right? For the customer or
client to say no to you. But youkind of leave them with the what
if right, what am I missinghere? Because, you know,
obviously this person has acareer and must be doing
(09:03):
something right. You know, maybeI should take some time to
figure out what we could bothbenefit from like, yeah, I
definitely agree with that. I'mnot sure I use that exact
phrasing, you know, what, youknow, some of the stuff that we
work on. But um, you know, Ithink you bring up a good point,
though, because it sounds likeveiled within that is the idea
of like, what can I really dofor you? Right, like what you
(09:27):
can do for me, obviously, whatyou could do for me is hire me,
you know, we do a deal. Youknow, I get paid, you know, fee
or whatnot like obviously, thatI think is in the bargain. But I
think what sometimes get missedis what can I do for you? That's
maybe different outside the box,service wise. I mean, there's so
many levels of that that couldbe
Mordecai Rosenberg (09:51):
Is there anything that comes to mind in
that regard, like things thatyou know, because like you said,
we are in a mean, the perceptionis that good commodity
businesses capital advisory, youknow, so yeah, any any war
stories that come to mind aboutlike interesting things that you
did to start a relationship,
Gideon Gil (10:12):
You know, like the one refrain that I always feel I
get or we hear is, you know,clients want you to be
aggressive, right. And it's sortof like, they want you to do
something that they feel likethey either don't have the time
to do or don't want to do. And,you know, obviously, there's
(10:32):
different levels of that. And inmy opinion, it can mean a lot of
different things like there arepeople who will just like pick
up the phone and callrelentlessly. And, you know,
almost in a very detached way,try to beat them over the head,
someone over the head in orderto get what they want. But I
think there's also like, in thatword, it's sort of just more of
like a tenacity of just kind ofkeeping a process going, ever
(10:55):
giving up. And I think like,that's something that I've seen
both in, look, we can talk aboutwhere we are in the world and
the cycle later on, but like, Ithink that that's like a really
important quality, because it'sin the last few years, you know,
prior maybe to 2022, I thinkthere were a lot of people who
whatever your industry can bepretty successful, because
(11:16):
you're sort of in this risingtide. And now you're sort of in
with a shrinking pie to somedegree, it's like, how do you
prove your mettle? You know, doyou have the chops to kind of
stick it out right now. And Ithink it's sort of led by grid
and kind of sticking with itthat that I know, is valued. And
I've seen get valued by ourclients, right? It's, it's like,
(11:37):
we're working on lots of thingswhere it's just like, you just
can't give up, right? It's just,it's not easy, necessarily, it'd
be amazing if we can just likeget, you know, a couple of great
offers, and, you know, they justpick the one that's the best,
and we negotiate an incredibledeal, which, you know,
obviously, is our goal oneverything. But I think that
that, you know, in a tougherenvironment just is that quality
(11:58):
that you really want to have inorder to kind of keep going
forward? You know, and that's,it's very easy to get
discouraged, I'd say, in ourindustry. You know, somebody
once said, to me, thisexpression, like, brokerage
industry is about appointmentsand disappointments, you know,
and it's easy to getdiscouraged. No, because you're
kind of always working andthings go sideways. And deals
(12:21):
may not happen. And, you know,there's a lot of things that
that could go, you know, off therails, but I'd say like, kind of
just staying focused, and, youknow, aggressive and tenacious
as to like, what your goals areis really important.
Mordecai Rosenberg (12:34):
Right? I mean, especially at the
beginning, we there's so muchwe're getting a lot of
rejection, before you startseeing the light of day.
Gideon Gil (12:42):
Yeah, and, you know, the expression if this were
easy, everyone would do it.
Right. It's like, that's anyindustry any job, right? It's
like, I think it does becomelike, to some degree a pyramid
where, you know, there's someselectivity as far as who can
stick with it and is good at itand, and kind of make it to that
next level, and then level afterthat. I mean, it definitely is a
big part of what we do.
Mordecai Rosenberg (13:02):
Yeah. Let's talk about whale hunting. Yeah.
And you guys, you and Cushmanteam. I mean, your your client
roster in New York is just, Imean, it's star studded, it's
that, you know, it's the clientlist that that yeah, salespeople
dream of having happen, right?
How do you get to a? Yeah, justthese institutional sponsors
(13:27):
doing, you know, 200 or 100billion dollar deals? Right. And
they're calling and you're,you're getting the financing
assignment? Like, how does thathow does that relationship
start?
Gideon Gil (13:43):
Yeah, so So I would say this, that being part of a
bigger organization opens many,many doors in those
opportunities. And, you know, I,I appreciate the concept that,
you know, it's one person onebrand, but it's, that's really
not the truth. Right? It's, it'sbasically a complete team effort
here. And, you know, there thereare folks who can be the one
(14:07):
person show and land those typeof whale deals, but I'd say,
within a bigger organization,you know, and I think we talked
about it earlier, there's sortof this bigger bargain as far as
like, what can what can you whatcan your team do for me, and,
you know, sitting in a companylike Cushman and Wakefield, you
have incredibly lucky because I,I sit and then kind of merged
(14:30):
together with one of the mostprolific if not the most
prolific investment sales team,certainly in New York and maybe
around the country. And as faras like, what those doors open
for what we do in financing areenormous. You know, we also have
incredible services between ourleasing between our evaluations
team, you know, there's a lot ofthings that all kind of come
(14:52):
together in the biggerrelationships in order to kind
of make that happen. But I thinkboth That's great, and it opens
the door. But, you know, everyone of those opportunities,
especially if it's a newrelationship is really, it's not
going to happen if if you're notgood, right? It's not like, Hey,
we're gonna hire your team, butit's like, you know, you need to
(15:14):
know what you're doing, you needto have that track record, and
kind of convey that, to, youknow, those types of clients on
those deals. So I think that itis, is very much a team effort.
But it's also very much, youknow, cumulative experience,
right, having been doing thisfor many years.
Mordecai Rosenberg (15:32):
Yeah, so do you think like the, you know, if
you're giving advice to someonewho is coming out of college,
let's say, and they want to getinto the industry, and their
choice is to work for a bigfirm, you know, or to work for a
small boutique firm, wherethey're, you know, they're not
as much of a name, but they getto wear a lot of hats. And, you
know, it's, it's just a smallergroup, maybe to get out in
(15:55):
front, you know, more morequickly, you know, what do you
think is? Any general advicethat you would give? Or you
think it? It depends?
Gideon Gil (16:05):
Yeah, I'd say, there's a lot to be learned in
some of these bigger companies,right, I think that, if you No
part of this, I'd walk it backand says, It's partly depends on
your personality, you know, ifyou're somebody who is, I'd say,
a little more linear in yourcareer path, I'd say working in
a bigger company is probably agreat start, because you're
(16:26):
going to be meeting tons ofpeople, you'll be getting a lot
of great training, you'll begetting a lot of transactional
experience meeting capitalsources on all sides of the
table, you know, the buyers, thelenders, some of the service
providers, you know, in themiddle there, so, there's a lot
that happens that it's like,you're kind of just really,
(16:48):
really growing and learning oneverything you touch for those,
you know, first early part ofyour career, and it opens a lot
of doors, you know, what I foundworking in a bigger company is
that your network, not onlywithin your company grows, but
eventually a lot of people leaveand go to other companies, and
you know, the network grows justvery organically that way over
(17:09):
the course of a career, youknow, so I frequently run into
somebody who's somewhere elsefor like, 10 or 15 years
already. And like, yeah, we usedto work together at, you know,
Clarion, or whatever, you know,it's like, there's a lot of that
overlap that that happens. Theother side is like, there are
some people who are kind oflike, you know, born
(17:30):
entrepreneurs, right, where it'slike, they're just their DNA set
up to take risk. And, you know,they have that kind of go getter
personality, where they cancomfortably work in a bigger
organization and, you know, sitat a desk and kind of report to
a number of people, and maybethey're amazing at being someone
else's right hand person, andthey can just get everything
(17:51):
done. And everyday is completelydifferent. And, you know, they
just are really great atabsorbing that kind of dynamic
change, right? That that youjust never know. And it's
exciting to them, and it kind ofleads them on a path that
eventually they'll be that thelead entrepreneur. So, you know,
I think in our industry, we cansay there was like, both sides
of that and everything inbetween. I mean, it's really
(18:13):
incredible. How can accommodatethat?
Mordecai Rosenberg (18:15):
Yeah, that's very interesting. You mentioned
Clary on. So you've been on lotsof different sides of the
business also read so yeah, Ibelieve you started your
acquisitions and development. Sothat is a clarion testing, one
kind of selling because whileyou're actually trying to buy,
(18:37):
but buying and selling to,right, you're trying to get
people to sell sell to, youknow, RCG long view, you know,
just selling high yield debtproducts. Madison, looking
forward to purchase justdistressed debt. And then I
think Columbia River capitalalso was a business you had for
(19:01):
advising your family offices?
How would you describe thedifferences in in the kinds of
selling that you have to dofrom, from all those different
parts, because it sounds likeyou've really covered like, the
full gamut from the buy sideacquisition to offering debt as
a direct lender to trying to buydebt, you know, then advising
(19:21):
like investors like you really,and now advising on on debt and
equity, you've kind of done thefull full gamut. So I'm curious
kind of get your perspective onthis different parts of the, you
know, the time.
Gideon Gil (19:37):
So there's a couple of layers to that, and I'll try
and get to them. So, you know,on the sales front, right, I
would tell you that in every oneof those jobs, or stops for me,
there has been like an enormoussales component. And I think it
means different things, right.
So even when, you know, it waslike, associated, you know, Oh,
(19:58):
at Clarion. I won't exactly usethe word sales, but but the big
job was in order to gatherinformation for acquisitions,
for our team leaders puttogether these very, very
detailed investment memos, thatultimately would get presented
to a very senior levelInvestment Committee. Right. And
(20:21):
one of the great things thatClarion afforded me was, I was,
you know, like, maybe 2829 30years old, and just out of
business school, and able topresent these deals to an
investment committee, right, offolks that had, you know, as
individuals, you know, 3040years of experience in the
(20:43):
industry. And it really did testyour mettle, because there was
number one, did you know yourdeal? Right, did you know the
market details, we really up tothe task there. So that was like
one level of like, are youreally know what you're talking
about. And I think another partof it was really like how you
(21:05):
present it, right? As far aslike, your tone, your elocution,
your, you know, this is like alot within that, that you just
sort of, are you fluid with howyou're speaking and kind of
keeping people engaged, youknow, definitely been in
meetings where there was a gooddeal. And the presenter was just
stumbling, and not kind ofgetting there. And you could
(21:27):
tell the audience was sort offading and that that deal might
not get approved, but for thewrong reason. And so I think
that that's something that Ithink is really important, it's
sort of like how you not onlyhave a command of the facts, but
how you really tell the story.
Like, I think that's reallyimportant. And, you know, so So
(21:49):
that's, that's like one area,and I think it kind of carries
through, like these people tellme all the time, like, you know,
yeah, you're an advisor, you'rea broker, you know, you're on
the sales side. But I'mbasically an internal broker at
this lending shop, or I'm aninternal broker at this
acquisition shop, because allI'm doing is trying to get
people to buy in, so they'llgive me the money to lend or
give me the money to, to bid. Sowe're all doing that, on some
(22:13):
level, whether you, you know,realize it or not, whether it's
your title or not, but we're allkind of doing that on some
level. You know, to your to yourother observation, as far as
like, you know, a few of thestops in my career before I got
to Cushman. I think for me,they've been incredibly
valuable. I have like,tremendous admiration for folks
(22:33):
who can kind of jump into thisbusiness, very early in their
career, and really startbuilding up a book of business,
because, you know, there's a lotto learn, you know, about real
estate in general. And, youknow, for me, it took me, you
know, a number of years, both onthe acquisition side, or the
equity side, and the debt side,to really understand like how it
(22:53):
all comes together. And for me,it helped, it helped, like
really crystallize. Like when Ilook at a deal, like I can sort
of, in my estimations like sortof say, this is an interesting
deal. And this is how a lenderis going to look at it. And this
is an interesting deal, becausewhat a buyer is going to look
at, and it's obviously themarket evolves and changes. So
you're still always learning.
But I think it's kind of havinga cumulative experience that
(23:15):
really has helped me be betterat what I do. On the advisory
side, because I've sad, to somedegree, I've sat in those seats
with with both clients andlenders and understand like, to
some degree what decisions theyhave to go through.
Mordecai Rosenberg (23:31):
Right? Yeah.
And sometimes as much as wethink we know what it feels like
to be on the other side. Youdon't right mean, you think you
could say, oh, yeah, like,here's what, you know, here's
what it takes to get a, youknow, to get a financing, you
have to you have to submit thesedocuments and and then, you
know, wait 30 days, or whateverit is, but it's, do you know
(23:55):
what it feels like to actuallysubmit those documents, right?
How hard is it to pull those youknow, or to get title or to what
kind of the stress that you feelwhen you have a closing deadline
coming up, and you haven't heardback and you're waiting back
from the lender, so I thinkprobably gives you a certain
amount of empathy that'sdifficult to have, if you've
never been in that other seat.
Gideon Gil (24:18):
And to some degree, it also helps you understand how
hard to push. You know, whenyou're dealing with somebody who
it's just a one personorganization, I think you
probably feel like you can pushpretty hard all the time. But
when you're dealing with someonewho is part of a much larger
organization, you know, it'sit's only reasonable to give
(24:40):
that person some latitudebecause, you know, they're gonna
have to go and go throughcommittees and committees don't
meet every day, and you have tohave consensus. And it's like,
you know, it's no wonder that alot of these institutions just
move slower because they're not,you know, there's just more
stakeholders involved in a lotof these processes. So I think
people pick that up fairlyquickly. But you sometimes
(25:00):
forget it in the heat of themoment when you're just like, I
want an answer. And you justsort of realized that that's not
necessarily possible. Soquickly, it does sometimes take
a little time.
Mordecai Rosenberg (25:11):
Yeah, you mentioned the importance of
being able to tell a story, youknow, in your elocution. What is
the key to telling a good a goodstory?
Gideon Gil (25:22):
I'm not sure there's a formula to that, right. But I
think that trying to keep youraudience engaged to some degree,
like, almost every single personwho's a salesperson, me
included, should have takenlike, almost like a drama class.
Right, or some sort of like, youknow, certainly a public
speaking class. Because I thinkthat, what, especially in this
(25:46):
age, where in a nanosecond,someone's gonna go and just
like, pick up their phone andcheck their texts or their
emails and kind of getdistracted, right? You sort of
feel like you're really on theclock, right? As far as to have
your attention? How long can Ikeep your attention for, you
know, and my connecting withyou, and I feel like more than
ever, that's so hard, becausethere's so many things competing
(26:07):
for everyone's attention. AndI'm on the other end of that,
also, and bad as everybody elsewhen it comes to staying focus.
So I think like, a lot of it issort of saying, like, how do I
tell the story so that, youknow, I'm basically giving my
conclusion upfront. Andbasically, this is what I'm
gonna tell you a story about,this is the deal, these are the
(26:28):
deal points, these are theterrible things that we're going
to overcome together, these arethe great things that are gonna
make you want to do this deal.
And then sort of drilling down,right, and knowing when to get
technical. And when not toright. And at least in our
industry, it's like, you sort ofsorta have to read the room a
little bit and understand like,hey, is this a group that's
going to want to go real deepinto the numbers? Or is this the
(26:50):
an audience that really wantsjust to hear more qualitative
and will save the numbers fortheir analyst, and we'll get
there when we get there. So Ithink it's sort of like drilling
down and knowing how far todrill down. And before you come
back up to the surface, and, andthen I always like to really
wrap with a conclusion, right?
(27:12):
Like, what was the message thatwe took away here? It's like, if
you're gonna remember one thingfrom this conversation, let me
leave you with that. You know,and to some degree, where you
start and where you end shouldbe fairly similar. At least
that's what it feels like. Andnot obviously, not everything's
different. But it does feel likethat's important.
Mordecai Rosenberg (27:30):
Yeah, I feel like it would be interesting to
do some kind of a salestraining, competition with like,
younger, your brokers,originators, and we call it
like, the, like the TIC Toctest, right, which is like you
just given like, what, you know,you have 30 seconds, and you
need me to want to stay on forthe next 30 seconds. Right. So
(27:53):
like, Give me something in 30seconds. Because really, you
know, when I was when I yeah,I've been in the industry for
about 20 years, like when I wasstarting in cold calling, you
know that it was like you hadtwo minutes, roll when you got
on the phone. Right? For now. Ifeel like it's yet 22nd to get
someone interested, or elsethey're out.
Gideon Gil (28:14):
I agree. It's like, you just have to like, it's such
a frenetic pace now foreverything, right. So like, when
you, we're all so busy, right?
It's like, it's amazing theamount of information and
choices that we all juggle everysingle day, even on the way it's
just, it's just, it'sincredible, like how much that
we get done. I mean, just, youknow, you think about, like, we
(28:37):
sent out an email. Now, back inthe day, that was like, someone
had to type up on a piece ofpaper, a memo, and that memo
would then get sent out to like,10 people, and it might take an
entire day to arrive atsomebody's desk, and that we're
just doing that like 1000 timesa day, you know, it's really
insane. Like how how, you know,and I'm sure it's gonna get even
more the technology continues toprogress. So and that that will
(29:01):
be interesting how we all kindof evolve and adapt to that. But
But yeah, you're right. It's,it's sort of like, how do you
kind of grab somebody? And it Idon't think it necessarily has
to be like, so theatrical, like,you know what I mean, it doesn't
have to be like, you walk in,and it's like, boom, like, an
episode of Shark Tank orsomething like that, but that
(29:21):
it's sort of like kind of comesback to what I think we were
saying earlier as to what have Igot, and what I've got that
could be interesting for you,and how do I Yeah, you know what
I mean? And sort of figure out away to connect with you as
quickly as possible.
Mordecai Rosenberg (29:39):
Right? Yeah, another, you know, just kind of
using the social mediametaphors. And like, another
model that's very interesting islike these like Twitter threads,
right? So your Twitter gives youI don't know two or three
characters or however manycharacters they give you. So
when people start doing as theystarted doing these threads
where they do that 250characters however many is, but
(30:01):
there has to be enough and thenyou then you comment on your
own. Right, you know, your owninitial thing, and then it kind
of has to keep keep you goingdown, right? So it's, if you
looked at it also, it's like,alright, you have your first 30
seconds, but now that thetheatrical but like you need to
be saying something that'scompelling enough to make
someone want to go to the nextstep, right and you can take
(30:21):
like, why you need to? We thinkthat it looks good if you come
with like a big book. Yeah,these big laminated professional
books, right, but like, theylook nice on a table, but how
many people are reading aboutthe employment trends, like in
the market and employmenttrends, you know, and here's why
(30:45):
multifamily is a stronginvestment. You know, it's like
there's a lot that no one everjust looks at, that's just,
Gideon Gil (30:52):
we get, we get that knock. I think a lot of, you
know, call it the biggerbrokerage firms, and we put
together our materials we doexactly that, you know, there's
probably four pages that reallymatter in these books, right,
you know, as far as what whatthe deal is really all about.
(31:13):
And then there's definitely,obviously information that
matters, but maybe doesn'tmatter in that first like, cut.
But yeah, we joke around, we'relike, oh, this deals in in New
York City. And then you havelike, a whole section on Central
Park. And, you know, the museumsand whatnot. You're like, does
anybody not know that? You know,but it's sort of like one of
those things. Yeah. You know,sudden you got like an 85 page
book. And people are like, Oh,my God, it's like homework. I
(31:35):
have all this.
Mordecai Rosenberg (31:37):
Yeah, yeah, we do my my team at Greystone.
So we do a quarterly portfolioretention report. So we look at
like all the loans that werepaid off, and how much did we
keep? How much was refinancedwith other lenders, if it was
rigged against other lenders?
Which other lenders if it wassold, like which brokers sold
it, and who did the nextfinancing, but and we would
(31:59):
share it with productionmanagers, people, and everyone
wanted more and moreinformation, right? So like,
went from being like 12 slides?
to Now I think it's like, Idon't know, also, like 55 slides
I said, and I said, Okay, thisis great. We have all this
information. But the next thingis to get it back to two. Right?
Because what's the yes, we haveall this information for anyone
(32:22):
who wants it, but you need to beable to get it down to your two
or three things, which is like,here's the bottom line, here's
where here's, here's whathappened.
Gideon Gil (32:30):
Right? And I think, you know, look, look, our two
firms produce a lot of data andinformation and what's what's
great, you know, both Greystoneand Cushman, it's like, there's
a lot of unsolicited researchreports that come my way. And
the what I've noticed, like moreconsistently is these reports
are really like two to threepages. And I think, you know,
(32:53):
we're saying the same thing thatyou just can get there quicker.
And there's also just so muchtime and data that people can
absorb, like, I would love it,if it was like, you know, 20
pages, and it was like, youknow, really engaging and you
really need and that does exist,and we do sometimes see that,
but like, and certainly likepitches and whatnot are much
more in depth. But, you know, asfar as some of the conclusions
(33:16):
that I think you're referencinghere, yes, you can probably nail
it on, on a couple of pages.
Mordecai Rosenberg (33:21):
Right.
Right. It's like don't assumethat you're the person you're
meeting with has less add thanyou do. Yeah. As a Yeah. So,
your Cushman is is a, you know,is a broker advisor. You guys do
lots of other things, you know,Greystone is a lender. You know,
one thing that I'm curious aboutis, you know, for institutions,
(33:45):
you know, a lot of like, let'ssay that, you know, agency,
business and FHA businesses donewith your, I don't know, 15 to
30 $40 million loan business,right, which is not like your
Blackstone Starwood, you know,KKR, you know, deals. What you
(34:06):
have to do differently to servea big institution, what are
their expectations? You know,what if you if you were giving
advice to a lender, we're, youknow, salesperson or
underwriter? Anyone on the team,but it's like, well, what's the
(34:26):
difference between, you know,doing a deal with someone who
has 10,000 units, you know, andsomeone who has yet 100,000
units, you know, in terms oftheir expectations?
Gideon Gil (34:39):
Yeah, I don't think there's like a one size fits all
answer to that. Right. I think,you know, we laugh about this,
but sometimes you might findsome of these, you know, mid
size, smaller deals are muchmore intense than some of these
bigger institutional deals,right. So to some degree, I
think it's the Certainly theclients, some of these bigger
(35:02):
institutional deals are, are,you know, sometimes much more
down the fairway as far as cashflows and, and leverage points
and things that people arelooking for that are much more,
you know, manageable. And thensometimes some of these smaller
transactions, folks try to getsuper aggressive, and there's a
lot of moving parts. And youknow, it could be much more
(35:24):
challenging. So I think like,the key throughout all of that
is really the preparation,right? It's far as like, kind of
understanding what you're aboutto embark on, what's the journey
on this deal, and really try tounderstand it up front, like a
lot of what we do, really,really early on in our process
(35:44):
is trying to identify what aregoing to be the challenges of,
you know, quote, unquote,selling this transaction, you
know, when we go out to themarket? And, you know, what are
the hardest parts? Is it? Youknow, the real estate taxes? Is
it some rollover, I mean,there's, you know, as we know,
there's tons of things that thatare on every transaction. So I
(36:06):
wouldn't necessarily say it'slike the institutions demand
this level, and then, you know,the midmarket clients would
demand a different level. Like,I don't think that's the
statement, I think it's justreally understanding the
transaction ahead of you, andkind of being as prepared as
possible to communicate what youneed to get done. And I think
(36:29):
there's sort of like a lot ofuniform traits and
characteristics that I think youjust bring to every single deal,
at least, if you want to besuccessful on them. I mean, I
don't think you can go into adeal and say, like, oh, this
deal smaller, and it's a smallerfee, and I'm going to work less
hard. I mean, I think that is arecipe for failure. Yeah. You
know, sometimes it's theopposite. Right? I think you
sometimes have to work evenharder on those on those
(36:51):
transactions. So I would say,you know, perhaps, like the
institutions want more data,right, as far as how they report
and, and kind of look at theirdecision making in that context.
But, but that, overall, I thinkthere's a lot of similarities to
kind of how we approach everyone of those deals.
Mordecai Rosenberg (37:11):
Right?
Right. And to your point, insome ways, it's easier to sell a
deal that's been bought by KKR.
So
Gideon Gil (37:19):
it's a great point, you know, some of these bigger
institutions have a very, verytight following of Capital
Partners, you know, lenders whowant to continue to work with
them, right? So it's like, hey,you know, we want to do another
deal with, you know, one ofthose groups, and they're almost
sometimes making a case to us asto like, you know, why, right.
(37:40):
So it does sort of depend on whothe sponsor is, that definitely
makes, it provides a lot morevisibility into how the
transaction is going to goforward. Right, like a first
time borrower who doesn't haveany, you know, relationships
with some of these lenders. Imean, that's, that certainly
makes it more challenging.
Mordecai Rosenberg (38:00):
Yeah, for sure. We're sitting here, it's
towards the beginning ofDecember 2022. And the market
is, is challenging, and peopleare still trying to, you know,
try and get their arms around.
Yeah, I mean, it's hard tobelieve that it's the same year,
as like January of 2022.
Gideon Gil (38:24):
Yeah, I couldn't agree more with that statement.
Yeah.
Mordecai Rosenberg (38:27):
Yeah. I mean, we were like we were
doing, we were adjusting, and wewere doing value estimates
across the portfolio. And likewe were, we were reducing cap
rates by, you know, 150 basispoints at the beginning of the
year, because of all the theaggressive pricing we were
seeing. And then they blew out300 basis points. You know, what
are you seeing in the markettoday? You How are you at
(38:50):
bottoming? First of all otherpeople aren't buying as much,
although you guys have stilllistened pretty big deals
recently. But how do you serve aclient when they are? They're
not in transactional and supertransactional mode?
Gideon Gil (39:11):
Well, so let's start with where you said, like
between January, December, whathas really changed, right, I
think we went from a freneticcrazy pace, you know, throughout
a lot of 2021, right, a yearago, at this time, we couldn't
even get people on the phone.
Right? It was just like,everybody was so busy, going
through their pipelines gettingtransactions closed. And, you
(39:32):
know, it was honestly it wasvery exciting, right? It's sort
of was like, Oh, finally, thisis our reward after the
pandemic. You know, now we havebeen sitting in homes, we
haven't been as transactional,right? And all of a sudden 2021
proved to be like an incrediblybusy year. And a lot of that
carried over into the firstquarter of this year, right
(39:56):
where I think even though thesort of Seeds of, you know,
inflation and rates are going tomove higher, we're definitely
being spoken about. It wassomething where it, it sort of,
I think it took a while forpeople to sort of really realize
that that happened. And that'sgoing to really result in where
we are right now in December.
Right, where you kind of fastforward. And, you know, what
(40:20):
we're doing is we're kind of,candidly, I think we're being
more advisors than ever, right,in the sense of working with
clients. It's a lot of processesthat have an intended goal. But
I think we have to be realistic,like that goal may not happen in
this calendar year, it may nothappen in next calendar year.
(40:43):
But it's sort of saying veryclose to a situation. So that
when the market does break, youhave done everything possible to
set yourself up to perform foryour client at that point.
Right. So again, it comes downto sort of like that, what can I
do for you? How can I beprepared in order to you know,
because at some point, again,we've probably been in this
(41:07):
industry a while, you know, thisis not the first time I've seen
things sort of seize up. Andit's certainly somehow always
feels like a bit of a surprisewhen it does happen. But the
other part is, it's like these,these moments, while you're in
them, seem like they're nevergoing to end they do change and
things do eventually improve.
But it's sort of just like kindof being around your base, and
(41:28):
sort of making sure that theyunderstand you're there for
them. And you're not only therefor them when you can make
money, right? Like I hate to saythat way, it's just like you're
there for them. Because youknow, you're committed to seeing
your clients succeed. And therewill be times where it's easy,
and everybody's happy. Andthere'll be times where it's
(41:48):
challenging. And it takes alonger time and maybe have to
wait longer for the success tohappen. But it's sort of just
kind of staying connected tothose, you know, clients and
those transactions for as longas you can.
Mordecai Rosenberg (42:01):
Yeah. So let's say you have a client,
they have a loan, that's gonnabe maturing, I don't know, let's
say sometime next year, youenter next year. Right, so and
then, what are you telling themtoday? They're getting nervous?
Like, what? Yeah, I don't know,what's going to happen, where
the markets gonna be? How areyou advising a client like that
(42:21):
to prepare for that comingevent?
Gideon Gil (42:25):
Yes. So it's, it's getting there early, right. So
that, you know, sometimes, look,I think clients are even in good
markets are really looking attheir book and sort of figuring
out like, they're not waiting,you know, three months before a
loan matures to kind of run abroker process, right? And
figure out like, hey, go tothese lenders, most folks are
(42:46):
getting ahead of it, I thinkfolks are getting ahead of their
loan maturities earlier. And Ithink in the cases where they
feel like it's going to be achallenge, for whatever the
reason, whether it's value,whether it's, you know,
refinancing proceeds, they'retrying to get in front of that
early and early with theirlender, right? I think if
(43:09):
there's one lesson that Ilearned and took away from the
financial crisis, which was, youknow, like 1415 years ago, but
yet still feels extremelyrelevant. You know, as far as
like that sort of seminal momentin a career, right, when you
kind of like, feel like, wow,that was when everything
changed. And you saw a lot of,of how people performed and
(43:35):
behaved in the market. And thething that I seem to take away
was the operators who kind oftried to do everything they
could to figure it out, and workcollaboratively and
transparently. And this is notlike, perfect, right? It didn't
always work out this way. Butthose were the ones that seem to
kind of ride out of thesecrisis, or these challenging
(43:57):
situations in better shape. Theones that seem to take a
adversarial approach, like mayhave won some battles, but
probably didn't win the wars,you know, when it came to the
relationship stuff. So, youknow, and the nice thing about
our industry is like, people dotend to have short memories and,
(44:18):
and can kind of move on and youknow, again, to a better cycle,
and you're successful, and folkswant to work with you. But it
does feel like we're in one ofthose moments where
collaboration is going to be socritical. And to think you could
just do it by yourself is Ithink, I think it's tough. Like
I think you want to have thebest people around you both
(44:39):
internally and you know,advisors externally like
whatever in order to kind ofhelp you figure it out.
Mordecai Rosenberg (44:45):
Yeah. I think that that's right and for
the lenders to to be to overcommunicate with their clients,
right, not just to wait till sixmonths before before maturity,
but really to be checked. Andthen like, where is everything?
Okay, and just, you know, justto make sure. I mean, I remember
(45:07):
during the financial crisis thatyou're right, we one of the
things that there was verylittle of it seemed like was
communication. You know, and youhad, I remember having clients
when good properties, but theyhad maturing CMBS. You know,
they defaulted. And they theywere, they had properties were
foreclosed without a singlephone call to the client. It
(45:29):
just,
Gideon Gil (45:30):
Yeah, it sort of goes back to like this, this is
very much business is very muchabout relationships. Right? And
you really, look, you reallywant to do everything you can
to, to protect thoserelationships. And it works both
ways. Right? It's like, look, wehear it from lenders right now,
(45:51):
where they're like, they knowthey have some problem loans.
But there are two borrowers whothey really value those
relationships. And the easything would be to just say,
let's just sell the note andmove on and put it into somebody
else's hands, it becomes someoneelse's problem. But it again, it
is a two way street. And peoplerealize it's like, you know, we
(46:11):
can't just do that we can onlybe there for people in the good
times, like and not be there inthe bad times. And that's
something that I think thebetter capital providers
realize, now. Now, granted, someof them are regulated, so they
don't really have a choice,right. So at some point, you
know, the clock does one down,and you have to do what you have
to do. But, you know, I thinkfolks are trying to manage those
(46:34):
relationships so that when we doall come out of moments like
this, you're not isolated, andyou're not like, oh, I closed up
shop, I didn't do any lending. Ididn't return phone calls, and
everybody was on their own. Andit's like, yeah, it's like,
well, that says something about,you know, the road ahead with
you, you know, so it's, it's,it's important.
Mordecai Rosenberg (46:55):
Yeah. Ya know, that that makes that makes
sense. Are you seeing any banksor lenders start to sell loans?
You know, you're kind ofdistressed, loan sales.
Gideon Gil (47:10):
Yes. So there's definitely that momentum in the
market right now. And we we haveour team here in New York,
handles, a bunch of that, youknow, with with Adam Spees and
Doug's team. And then we have anote sales team that's, you
know, based in DC that kind ofreally runs that around the
(47:30):
country, both in good marketsand challenging markets. And,
you know, we've definitely seenan uptick, I think it's been, to
some degree, it's been a littlebit more one off at this point,
right. It's not like what wesaw, where, you know, you'd have
like, huge portfolios of loansbeing sold, in order just to
create huge liquidity for someof these institutions to
(47:51):
survive. Like, I haven't seenanything even close to that yet.
So I think there's a lot of justlike, the ones we can figure out
a blend and extend or some paydown, like if there's still
value to be had, but it's justbad timing, like, those
situations, I know, are gettingworked on behind the scenes,
we're working on some of those.
I think it's the one where thevalue is clearly changed. You
(48:14):
know, it's, it's whether it'slike, you know, potentially an
office building or a groundlease situation, leasehold.
Like, those are the ones that Iwe're we're definitely seeing
much, much more momentum onright now.
Mordecai Rosenberg (48:31):
Yeah. Yeah, it's, you have to know the
business that you're in. Yeah.
And the businesses that you'rein, but But you may not know it,
you know, so like, with with ourwith with real estate owners,
you think you're in the realestate business, let's say a
multifamily owner, are youthinking what you do is you
bought you own apartments andyou manage apartments? But, you
(48:52):
know, what I've said, is thatthe fundamentals in the
multifamily market, like they'vealways been strong, we've never
really not been strong, even inthe financial crisis, they were
strong. The risk that you havewith multifamily is low
maturity, you know, or, or Iguess, like a fund redemption.
But your, your hope is that whenyour loan is maturing, that the
(49:13):
market is not in a place wherethere's no liquidity, you know,
it's there. We both sell lots ofgreat real estate that was lost
in the financial crisis, justbecause at that moment, no
lenders were there. So I think,you know, multifamily owners,
real estate owners like whenthey finance it, probably some
have larger debt strategies, butI feel like a lot of them, it's
(49:36):
like, well, how do I maximizethe return on this, this
acquisition, you know, based onwhere the market is today, and
then they don't realize thatthey're also in the debt
management. If you're in the ifyou're in the real estate
market, you're also in the debtmanagement market. Yeah. And you
want to be diversified in thatregard in terms of maturities
and the types. So I wonder iflike one thing that that people
(49:58):
could Do Is it to sit with theclient. And yes, they're worried
about the maturity next year.
But it's also an opportunity,when things aren't as frenetic
to sit back with a client andsay, look, let's look at your
whole debt portfolio. And let'scome up with a strategy of where
we'd like this to be like, fiveyears from now, you know, and
start putting in place a plan,because at some point, the
(50:20):
markets are going to open up,and let's not be in this
situation, let's try to see wecould not be in a situation
again, with a more holistic,holistic approach.
Gideon Gil (50:30):
No, agreed. I think that's probably one of the
reasons why, you know, last yearwas such a busy year in the
financing markets, because, youknow, I know, we had several
transactions where there wasn'ta looming maturity date. But you
know, we and sponsors kind ofgot together and said, You know,
it's not gonna get much betterthan it is right now, you know,
(50:51):
the, you pay a little prepaymentpenalty, but you locked this
thing up for another 10 years,and you kind of put it away. And
there was some folks that werelike, all over that a lot of a
lot of people. And then there'ssome folks that were like, took
a little bit of approach, likenow, you know, I don't want to
pay that prepayment penalty, andI don't think rates are moving
higher. And anytime soon,there's, you know, the Omicron,
(51:15):
or whatever, you know, it waslike, on a stuff that, you know,
and again, you know, you justnever know, so, but I do agree
with you being strategic, as faras, like how you approach your
whole portfolio, like, you know,I definitely had more
conversations with folks aboutchallenging refinancings,
(51:35):
because there were more likevalue added plans, and the
timing is just bad, right?
They're just like, not done yet.
And their loan is up formaturity. Right. So those are
situations that are somewhatunavoidable, just because the
the business plan got delayedduring the pandemic, and now
it's, you know, a year or twobehind. So those are ones we're
definitely working through andtrying to work with lenders to
(51:56):
sort of figure out if there's anorganic extension, or if we have
to go back out to market. Youknow, the, the other part of
that equation is like,obviously, the cost of that
capital is moved up materially,the we have sort of the opposite
issue right now, where I'm sureyou're seeing this. Most of the
borrowers and frankly, most ofthe lenders we're working with
right now seem to have the mostcapital available for shorter
(52:18):
term financing, because theysort of feel two things. One is
they, the lenders feel like it'smuch more economical to lend,
you know, they can pay moreright now based on the indices
and the Treasury. And candidly,the spreads, and the borrower's
feel like, well, I'd rather takethe short term hit in the next
24 months. Yeah, I'm still goingto work on my business plan, and
(52:41):
the fundamentals in multifamilylargely are still pretty strong.
And I'd rather not lock into,you know, a loan at a coupon of
like five and three quarterspercent or 6%, when I really
believe it's going to be fourand a half or four and three
quarters percent in 24 monthsfrom now. So, you know, we're
kind of everyone's sort of likefiguring that out as well, as we
(53:03):
kind of, you know, wade throughthis this time here.
Mordecai Rosenberg (53:06):
Yeah. All right. Well, Gideon, this has
been really enlightening. Andit's, it's nice to hear the
Yeah, I mean, clearly remaincalm. Yeah. Even in the eye of
the storm that we're that we'reyou're currently in. So yeah, I
really appreciate you coming ona lot of really great points.
(53:27):
And it's gonna make me thinkabout storytelling. A lot. I
think it's a real, it's a reallyinvaluable point. If people take
it to heart.
(53:57):
Amen.
Gideon Gil (53:58):
Amen. All right.
Let's go get 'em!
Mordecai Rosenberg (53:59):
Alright.
Talk to you later Gideon.
Gideon Gil (54:01):
Thanks.
Mordecai Rosenberg (54:01):
Take care.
Hey, it's Mordecai. And welcome back to
the origination podcast, wherewe speak to the top salespeople
and sales leaders in themultifamily industry to try to
understand what separates thetop performers from the rest of
the pack. On this episode, I'llbe speaking with Gideon Gill
Executive Managing Director atCushman and Wakefield. Gideon
(00:36):
has been a prolific producer,and has closed over a billion
dollars of financings in hiscareer. This is a really great
conversation, and we talkedabout so many interesting
topics. One of the things wetalked about is a skill that is
not appreciated enough in sales,and that is storytelling. How do
(00:58):
you tell the right story to aclient? It's not just about
selling the transaction, butabout telling the story. And
we'll get into that. We recordedthis in December of 2022. The
markets are pretty chaotic. Sowe also talked about what's what
do you how do you advise yourclients during this time? How do
(01:20):
you create a sense of calm forthem? What kind of advice can
you give them when there's somany I'm not? I think you'll
really enjoy this conversation.
I certainly did that withoutfurther ado, let's speak with
Gideon. The one and only thegreat Gideon Gill. Welcome to
the origination podcast.
Gideon Gil (01:40):
Good morning, and thank you so much for having me.
Mordecai Rosenberg (01:44):
Awesome.
Well, Gideon, your your, youknow, you're a name brand and
kind of a giant in the, youknow, in the industry in New
York, but you know, like to goback to your to your your
beginning. So, if you have tothink about your earliest sales
experience that comes to mind.
Yeah, and that could be, itcould be when you were in third
(02:06):
grade, it could be high schoolor college or after college or
even current industry. anythingcome to mind for you?
Gideon Gil (02:15):
Well, I probably would say that, it I would
probably say that my it's notnecessary experience, but it
might be more osmosis for myfather. My father and
grandfather ran a jewelrybusiness. And I would always
see, especially with my dad, howprepared and, you know, kind of
(02:35):
never take no for an answer typeof attitude when they were in
business. And that was somethingOh, you know, I kind of liked
the way they did it and sort oflike a firm, but, you know, a
way that got the deal done, butnot necessarily like kind of
being too aggressive aboutthings or overtly aggressive.
And then, you know, over theyears, it's sort of just been
(02:56):
more like kind of developingthose, that comfort and
confidence with communicationskills in order to feel able to
ask people for what you reallywant. And then that's sometimes
the hardest part and being in asales job. It's, it's like
getting to the what do I want?
And what does the other partywant out of that bargain? So
that's something that I continueto work on it refining and
whatever we do,
Mordecai Rosenberg (03:18):
Asking for what you want, right? It sounds
like, such a simple thing. But Iknow you have he's very good at
that. You, my kids. Kids arevery good at asking for what
they want. And I feel likethey've gotten better with
generations. Like, I don't thinkI felt as comfortable asking for
what I wanted from my parents.
Yes, my kids do. I mean,
Gideon Gil (03:38):
I think I mean, if we want to talk about kids and
parents, it's like, you know, Ihave four kids who are basically
all teenagers at this point.
And, you know, not to like knockan entire generation, but I
think we as parents have made itmuch more like comfortable for
the relationship that we havewith our children, you know,
everything. It's like, veryviewed is much more emotive and
(03:58):
sympathetic than I think ourparents and certainly our
grandparents were with their,their children. So yeah, I
definitely agree with that.
Mordecai Rosenberg (04:10):
Yeah, my kids, I have four teenagers and
then 10 year old so definitelysupply a lot. Yeah. So your,
your you mentioned your fatherand your grandfather in the
jewelry store. So what what didthat look like about like, no,
not taking no for an answer, youknow, and I think it's, there's
(04:31):
a balance, right? Because youwant to be on the one hand,
especially in the salesindustry, like there's this idea
of like relentless pursuit,right and and, you know, kind of
just dog ID Yeah, persistence,but yet, you know, if you're on
the other side of it, and someguys like not getting the hint,
right. It's, that's not going tobe great for the relationships.
(04:53):
So what did that what did thatlook like? In terms of not yet
does that mean to not take noand do it delicate diplomacy.
Gideon Gil (05:02):
Yeah. So, so I think some of the things that I've
taken away is, to some degree.
So the family business was wasmore of like a wholesale
business with like, gemstonesand some jewelry and diamonds.
And you know, to some degree,that's a commodity, right. And
not to say that what we do is acommodity, but the parallels are
that we're kind of, we're reallywhat we do on the debt side of
(05:25):
the businesses is really about,you know, it's about capital and
funds, right. And to somedegree, that it is a commodity,
right, it just depends whereit's coming from. And what I
think the biggest takeaways thatI've always seen, you know, at
the earlier age is that thenumber one, I think you want to
figure out how you can connectwith, you know, the customer or
(05:46):
the counterparty that you'reworking with, you know, you
know, on a real, if possible, ona personal level, right. And I
think in our industry, it's,it's really like on the who, you
know, like, who do you know, incommon that we both like and
trust and sort of say like,that's like validation as far as
how, how we can kind of like, goto the next level of this
relationship or conversation. SoI think, you know, I tell to my
(06:10):
team all the time, like, you,you're gonna get good at this
business, like, you're gonnaunderstand how the mechanics
work and how deals get done. Butthen it's going to really be
about how you handle yourselfwith clients in deal situations.
And so taking it back to likethe sales experience, you know,
it does feel like that nottaking no for an answer, I think
(06:32):
really started with just tryingto always keep the door open a
little bit in the conversation,like into, you know, not
Obviously not every engagementresults in a sale or results in
a client signing up with you.
But not taking no could mean,I'll call you in a week, I'll
call you in a month, we'llfollow up well, we'll do
(06:52):
something to kind of keep therelationship building and
moving. And you know, and I'veseen that in my own career, like
where it could be years before arelationship buds and become
something where we're actuallyworking on something live.
Mordecai Rosenberg (07:08):
Yeah. Yeah.
In terms of keeping the dooropen. It's, there's a book
called, never split thedifference. It's a negotiations
book by Chris Voss, who isn't hewas a, you know, when there was
like a bank holed up, and theywere taking hostages, like he
was called in for, like the FBIto negotiate that. So he had an
interesting point, which is thatyou were usually talking to
(07:34):
negotiations like getting toyes, like, how do you get them
to a yes. And his, his strategywas the opposite. It's like, I
want to get them to a no. Right?
And so we'd say, let's, let'ssay in our, in our, in our
industry, right, and you meetwith a client, and they say, oh,
yeah, I'm really loyal to mybroker, like, I've been doing
(07:57):
business with them for 30 years.
Like, I'm just good. So he'ssaying, all right, that's great.
So you probably like there'sprobably nothing that would ever
that I could ever bring to youthat would make you switch.
Right? Say, Well, I don't knowabout that. I mean, I guess, you
know, if you brought me a deal,or if you it's easier for
someone to say no than to sayyes. Right. And they feel more
protect, you know, they feelmore protected, right? So you to
(08:19):
get them to actually kind ofsell it. It's, I guess, like
reverse psychology a little bit.
But to say, there's probablylike, no way you'd ever buy this
gem from us, or this property,you probably never use like,
well, I don't know about that.
Like, don't you never say neveryou guys. Yeah. And actually, I
do have this deal that maybe youguys could look at? Yeah. So the
other side, same with same idea,you know,
Gideon Gil (08:42):
like how you connect? Right? It's, you know,
I think what you're saying is alot of psychology in that right?
As far as, you know, if ifyou're ready kind of come to
that conclusion. That's easy,right? For the customer or
client to say no to you. But youkind of leave them with the what
if right, what am I missinghere? Because, you know,
obviously this person has acareer and must be doing
(09:03):
something right. You know, maybeI should take some time to
figure out what we could bothbenefit from like, yeah, I
definitely agree with that. I'mnot sure I use that exact
phrasing, you know, what, youknow, some of the stuff that we
work on. But um, you know, Ithink you bring up a good point,
though, because it sounds likeveiled within that is the idea
of like, what can I really dofor you? Right, like what you
(09:27):
can do for me, obviously, whatyou could do for me is hire me,
you know, we do a deal. Youknow, I get paid, you know, fee
or whatnot like obviously, thatI think is in the bargain. But I
think what sometimes get missedis what can I do for you? That's
maybe different outside the box,service wise. I mean, there's so
many levels of that that couldbe
Mordecai Rosenberg (09:51):
Is there anything that comes to mind in
that regard, like things thatyou know, because like you said,
we are in a mean, the perceptionis that good commodity
businesses capital advisory, youknow, so yeah, any any war
stories that come to mind aboutlike interesting things that you
did to start a relationship,
Gideon Gil (10:12):
You know, like the one refrain that I always feel I
get or we hear is, you know,clients want you to be
aggressive, right. And it's sortof like, they want you to do
something that they feel likethey either don't have the time
to do or don't want to do. And,you know, obviously, there's
(10:32):
different levels of that. And inmy opinion, it can mean a lot of
different things like there arepeople who will just like pick
up the phone and callrelentlessly. And, you know,
almost in a very detached way,try to beat them over the head,
someone over the head in orderto get what they want. But I
think there's also like, in thatword, it's sort of just more of
like a tenacity of just kind ofkeeping a process going, ever
(10:55):
giving up. And I think like,that's something that I've seen
both in, look, we can talk aboutwhere we are in the world and
the cycle later on, but like, Ithink that that's like a really
important quality, because it'sin the last few years, you know,
prior maybe to 2022, I thinkthere were a lot of people who
whatever your industry can bepretty successful, because
(11:16):
you're sort of in this risingtide. And now you're sort of in
with a shrinking pie to somedegree, it's like, how do you
prove your mettle? You know, doyou have the chops to kind of
stick it out right now. And Ithink it's sort of led by grid
and kind of sticking with itthat that I know, is valued. And
I've seen get valued by ourclients, right? It's, it's like,
(11:37):
we're working on lots of thingswhere it's just like, you just
can't give up, right? It's just,it's not easy, necessarily, it'd
be amazing if we can just likeget, you know, a couple of great
offers, and, you know, they justpick the one that's the best,
and we negotiate an incredibledeal, which, you know,
obviously, is our goal oneverything. But I think that
that, you know, in a tougherenvironment just is that quality
(11:58):
that you really want to have inorder to kind of keep going
forward? You know, and that's,it's very easy to get
discouraged, I'd say, in ourindustry. You know, somebody
once said, to me, thisexpression, like, brokerage
industry is about appointmentsand disappointments, you know,
and it's easy to getdiscouraged. No, because you're
kind of always working andthings go sideways. And deals
(12:21):
may not happen. And, you know,there's a lot of things that
that could go, you know, off therails, but I'd say like, kind of
just staying focused, and, youknow, aggressive and tenacious
as to like, what your goals areis really important.
Mordecai Rosenberg (12:34):
Right? I mean, especially at the
beginning, we there's so muchwe're getting a lot of
rejection, before you startseeing the light of day.
Gideon Gil (12:42):
Yeah, and, you know, the expression if this were
easy, everyone would do it.
Right. It's like, that's anyindustry any job, right? It's
like, I think it does becomelike, to some degree a pyramid
where, you know, there's someselectivity as far as who can
stick with it and is good at itand, and kind of make it to that
next level, and then level afterthat. I mean, it definitely is a
big part of what we do.
Mordecai Rosenberg (13:02):
Yeah. Let's talk about whale hunting. Yeah.
And you guys, you and Cushmanteam. I mean, your your client
roster in New York is just, Imean, it's star studded, it's
that, you know, it's the clientlist that that yeah, salespeople
dream of having happen, right?
How do you get to a? Yeah, justthese institutional sponsors
(13:27):
doing, you know, 200 or 100billion dollar deals? Right. And
they're calling and you're,you're getting the financing
assignment? Like, how does thathow does that relationship
start?
Gideon Gil (13:43):
Yeah, so So I would say this, that being part of a
bigger organization opens many,many doors in those
opportunities. And, you know, I,I appreciate the concept that,
you know, it's one person onebrand, but it's, that's really
not the truth. Right? It's, it'sbasically a complete team effort
here. And, you know, there thereare folks who can be the one
(14:07):
person show and land those typeof whale deals, but I'd say,
within a bigger organization,you know, and I think we talked
about it earlier, there's sortof this bigger bargain as far as
like, what can what can you whatcan your team do for me, and,
you know, sitting in a companylike Cushman and Wakefield, you
have incredibly lucky because I,I sit and then kind of merged
(14:30):
together with one of the mostprolific if not the most
prolific investment sales team,certainly in New York and maybe
around the country. And as faras like, what those doors open
for what we do in financing areenormous. You know, we also have
incredible services between ourleasing between our evaluations
team, you know, there's a lot ofthings that all kind of come
(14:52):
together in the biggerrelationships in order to kind
of make that happen. But I thinkboth That's great, and it opens
the door. But, you know, everyone of those opportunities,
especially if it's a newrelationship is really, it's not
going to happen if if you're notgood, right? It's not like, Hey,
we're gonna hire your team, butit's like, you know, you need to
(15:14):
know what you're doing, you needto have that track record, and
kind of convey that, to, youknow, those types of clients on
those deals. So I think that itis, is very much a team effort.
But it's also very much, youknow, cumulative experience,
right, having been doing thisfor many years.
Mordecai Rosenberg (15:32):
Yeah, so do you think like the, you know, if
you're giving advice to someonewho is coming out of college,
let's say, and they want to getinto the industry, and their
choice is to work for a bigfirm, you know, or to work for a
small boutique firm, wherethey're, you know, they're not
as much of a name, but they getto wear a lot of hats. And, you
know, it's, it's just a smallergroup, maybe to get out in
(15:55):
front, you know, more morequickly, you know, what do you
think is? Any general advicethat you would give? Or you
think it? It depends?
Gideon Gil (16:05):
Yeah, I'd say, there's a lot to be learned in
some of these bigger companies,right, I think that, if you No
part of this, I'd walk it backand says, It's partly depends on
your personality, you know, ifyou're somebody who is, I'd say,
a little more linear in yourcareer path, I'd say working in
a bigger company is probably agreat start, because you're
(16:26):
going to be meeting tons ofpeople, you'll be getting a lot
of great training, you'll begetting a lot of transactional
experience meeting capitalsources on all sides of the
table, you know, the buyers, thelenders, some of the service
providers, you know, in themiddle there, so, there's a lot
that happens that it's like,you're kind of just really,
(16:48):
really growing and learning oneverything you touch for those,
you know, first early part ofyour career, and it opens a lot
of doors, you know, what I foundworking in a bigger company is
that your network, not onlywithin your company grows, but
eventually a lot of people leaveand go to other companies, and
you know, the network grows justvery organically that way over
(17:09):
the course of a career, youknow, so I frequently run into
somebody who's somewhere elsefor like, 10 or 15 years
already. And like, yeah, we usedto work together at, you know,
Clarion, or whatever, you know,it's like, there's a lot of that
overlap that that happens. Theother side is like, there are
some people who are kind oflike, you know, born
(17:30):
entrepreneurs, right, where it'slike, they're just their DNA set
up to take risk. And, you know,they have that kind of go getter
personality, where they cancomfortably work in a bigger
organization and, you know, sitat a desk and kind of report to
a number of people, and maybethey're amazing at being someone
else's right hand person, andthey can just get everything
(17:51):
done. And everyday is completelydifferent. And, you know, they
just are really great atabsorbing that kind of dynamic
change, right? That that youjust never know. And it's
exciting to them, and it kind ofleads them on a path that
eventually they'll be that thelead entrepreneur. So, you know,
I think in our industry, we cansay there was like, both sides
of that and everything inbetween. I mean, it's really
(18:13):
incredible. How can accommodatethat?
Mordecai Rosenberg (18:15):
Yeah, that's very interesting. You mentioned
Clary on. So you've been on lotsof different sides of the
business also read so yeah, Ibelieve you started your
acquisitions and development. Sothat is a clarion testing, one
kind of selling because whileyou're actually trying to buy,
(18:37):
but buying and selling to,right, you're trying to get
people to sell sell to, youknow, RCG long view, you know,
just selling high yield debtproducts. Madison, looking
forward to purchase justdistressed debt. And then I
think Columbia River capitalalso was a business you had for
(19:01):
advising your family offices?
How would you describe thedifferences in in the kinds of
selling that you have to dofrom, from all those different
parts, because it sounds likeyou've really covered like, the
full gamut from the buy sideacquisition to offering debt as
a direct lender to trying to buydebt, you know, then advising
(19:21):
like investors like you really,and now advising on on debt and
equity, you've kind of done thefull full gamut. So I'm curious
kind of get your perspective onthis different parts of the, you
know, the time.
Gideon Gil (19:37):
So there's a couple of layers to that, and I'll try
and get to them. So, you know,on the sales front, right, I
would tell you that in every oneof those jobs, or stops for me,
there has been like an enormoussales component. And I think it
means different things, right.
So even when, you know, it waslike, associated, you know, Oh,
(19:58):
at Clarion. I won't exactly usethe word sales, but but the big
job was in order to gatherinformation for acquisitions,
for our team leaders puttogether these very, very
detailed investment memos, thatultimately would get presented
to a very senior levelInvestment Committee. Right. And
(20:21):
one of the great things thatClarion afforded me was, I was,
you know, like, maybe 2829 30years old, and just out of
business school, and able topresent these deals to an
investment committee, right, offolks that had, you know, as
individuals, you know, 3040years of experience in the
(20:43):
industry. And it really did testyour mettle, because there was
number one, did you know yourdeal? Right, did you know the
market details, we really up tothe task there. So that was like
one level of like, are youreally know what you're talking
about. And I think another partof it was really like how you
(21:05):
present it, right? As far aslike, your tone, your elocution,
your, you know, this is like alot within that, that you just
sort of, are you fluid with howyou're speaking and kind of
keeping people engaged, youknow, definitely been in
meetings where there was a gooddeal. And the presenter was just
stumbling, and not kind ofgetting there. And you could
(21:27):
tell the audience was sort offading and that that deal might
not get approved, but for thewrong reason. And so I think
that that's something that Ithink is really important, it's
sort of like how you not onlyhave a command of the facts, but
how you really tell the story.
Like, I think that's reallyimportant. And, you know, so So
(21:49):
that's, that's like one area,and I think it kind of carries
through, like these people tellme all the time, like, you know,
yeah, you're an advisor, you'rea broker, you know, you're on
the sales side. But I'mbasically an internal broker at
this lending shop, or I'm aninternal broker at this
acquisition shop, because allI'm doing is trying to get
people to buy in, so they'llgive me the money to lend or
give me the money to, to bid. Sowe're all doing that, on some
(22:13):
level, whether you, you know,realize it or not, whether it's
your title or not, but we're allkind of doing that on some
level. You know, to your to yourother observation, as far as
like, you know, a few of thestops in my career before I got
to Cushman. I think for me,they've been incredibly
valuable. I have like,tremendous admiration for folks
(22:33):
who can kind of jump into thisbusiness, very early in their
career, and really startbuilding up a book of business,
because, you know, there's a lotto learn, you know, about real
estate in general. And, youknow, for me, it took me, you
know, a number of years, both onthe acquisition side, or the
equity side, and the debt side,to really understand like how it
(22:53):
all comes together. And for me,it helped, it helped, like
really crystallize. Like when Ilook at a deal, like I can sort
of, in my estimations like sortof say, this is an interesting
deal. And this is how a lenderis going to look at it. And this
is an interesting deal, becausewhat a buyer is going to look
at, and it's obviously themarket evolves and changes. So
you're still always learning.
But I think it's kind of havinga cumulative experience that
(23:15):
really has helped me be betterat what I do. On the advisory
side, because I've sad, to somedegree, I've sat in those seats
with with both clients andlenders and understand like, to
some degree what decisions theyhave to go through.
Mordecai Rosenberg (23:31):
Right? Yeah.
And sometimes as much as wethink we know what it feels like
to be on the other side. Youdon't right mean, you think you
could say, oh, yeah, like,here's what, you know, here's
what it takes to get a, youknow, to get a financing, you
have to you have to submit thesedocuments and and then, you
know, wait 30 days, or whateverit is, but it's, do you know
(23:55):
what it feels like to actuallysubmit those documents, right?
How hard is it to pull those youknow, or to get title or to what
kind of the stress that you feelwhen you have a closing deadline
coming up, and you haven't heardback and you're waiting back
from the lender, so I thinkprobably gives you a certain
amount of empathy that'sdifficult to have, if you've
never been in that other seat.
Gideon Gil (24:18):
And to some degree, it also helps you understand how
hard to push. You know, whenyou're dealing with somebody who
it's just a one personorganization, I think you
probably feel like you can pushpretty hard all the time. But
when you're dealing with someonewho is part of a much larger
organization, you know, it'sit's only reasonable to give
(24:40):
that person some latitudebecause, you know, they're gonna
have to go and go throughcommittees and committees don't
meet every day, and you have tohave consensus. And it's like,
you know, it's no wonder that alot of these institutions just
move slower because they're not,you know, there's just more
stakeholders involved in a lotof these processes. So I think
people pick that up fairlyquickly. But you sometimes
(25:00):
forget it in the heat of themoment when you're just like, I
want an answer. And you justsort of realized that that's not
necessarily possible. Soquickly, it does sometimes take
a little time.
Mordecai Rosenberg (25:11):
Yeah, you mentioned the importance of
being able to tell a story, youknow, in your elocution. What is
the key to telling a good a goodstory?
Gideon Gil (25:22):
I'm not sure there's a formula to that, right. But I
think that trying to keep youraudience engaged to some degree,
like, almost every single personwho's a salesperson, me
included, should have takenlike, almost like a drama class.
Right, or some sort of like, youknow, certainly a public
speaking class. Because I thinkthat, what, especially in this
(25:46):
age, where in a nanosecond,someone's gonna go and just
like, pick up their phone andcheck their texts or their
emails and kind of getdistracted, right? You sort of
feel like you're really on theclock, right? As far as to have
your attention? How long can Ikeep your attention for, you
know, and my connecting withyou, and I feel like more than
ever, that's so hard, becausethere's so many things competing
(26:07):
for everyone's attention. AndI'm on the other end of that,
also, and bad as everybody elsewhen it comes to staying focus.
So I think like, a lot of it issort of saying, like, how do I
tell the story so that, youknow, I'm basically giving my
conclusion upfront. Andbasically, this is what I'm
gonna tell you a story about,this is the deal, these are the
(26:28):
deal points, these are theterrible things that we're going
to overcome together, these arethe great things that are gonna
make you want to do this deal.
And then sort of drilling down,right, and knowing when to get
technical. And when not toright. And at least in our
industry, it's like, you sort ofsorta have to read the room a
little bit and understand like,hey, is this a group that's
going to want to go real deepinto the numbers? Or is this the
(26:50):
an audience that really wantsjust to hear more qualitative
and will save the numbers fortheir analyst, and we'll get
there when we get there. So Ithink it's sort of like drilling
down and knowing how far todrill down. And before you come
back up to the surface, and, andthen I always like to really
wrap with a conclusion, right?
(27:12):
Like, what was the message thatwe took away here? It's like, if
you're gonna remember one thingfrom this conversation, let me
leave you with that. You know,and to some degree, where you
start and where you end shouldbe fairly similar. At least
that's what it feels like. Andnot obviously, not everything's
different. But it does feel likethat's important.
Mordecai Rosenberg (27:30):
Yeah, I feel like it would be interesting to
do some kind of a salestraining, competition with like,
younger, your brokers,originators, and we call it
like, the, like the TIC Toctest, right, which is like you
just given like, what, you know,you have 30 seconds, and you
need me to want to stay on forthe next 30 seconds. Right. So
(27:53):
like, Give me something in 30seconds. Because really, you
know, when I was when I yeah,I've been in the industry for
about 20 years, like when I wasstarting in cold calling, you
know that it was like you hadtwo minutes, roll when you got
on the phone. Right? For now. Ifeel like it's yet 22nd to get
someone interested, or elsethey're out.
Gideon Gil (28:14):
I agree. It's like, you just have to like, it's such
a frenetic pace now foreverything, right. So like, when
you, we're all so busy, right?
It's like, it's amazing theamount of information and
choices that we all juggle everysingle day, even on the way it's
just, it's just, it'sincredible, like how much that
we get done. I mean, just, youknow, you think about, like, we
(28:37):
sent out an email. Now, back inthe day, that was like, someone
had to type up on a piece ofpaper, a memo, and that memo
would then get sent out to like,10 people, and it might take an
entire day to arrive atsomebody's desk, and that we're
just doing that like 1000 timesa day, you know, it's really
insane. Like how how, you know,and I'm sure it's gonna get even
more the technology continues toprogress. So and that that will
(29:01):
be interesting how we all kindof evolve and adapt to that. But
But yeah, you're right. It's,it's sort of like, how do you
kind of grab somebody? And it Idon't think it necessarily has
to be like, so theatrical, like,you know what I mean, it doesn't
have to be like, you walk in,and it's like, boom, like, an
episode of Shark Tank orsomething like that, but that
(29:21):
it's sort of like kind of comesback to what I think we were
saying earlier as to what have Igot, and what I've got that
could be interesting for you,and how do I Yeah, you know what
I mean? And sort of figure out away to connect with you as
quickly as possible.
Mordecai Rosenberg (29:39):
Right? Yeah, another, you know, just kind of
using the social mediametaphors. And like, another
model that's very interesting islike these like Twitter threads,
right? So your Twitter gives youI don't know two or three
characters or however manycharacters they give you. So
when people start doing as theystarted doing these threads
where they do that 250characters however many is, but
(30:01):
there has to be enough and thenyou then you comment on your
own. Right, you know, your owninitial thing, and then it kind
of has to keep keep you goingdown, right? So it's, if you
looked at it also, it's like,alright, you have your first 30
seconds, but now that thetheatrical but like you need to
be saying something that'scompelling enough to make
someone want to go to the nextstep, right and you can take
(30:21):
like, why you need to? We thinkthat it looks good if you come
with like a big book. Yeah,these big laminated professional
books, right, but like, theylook nice on a table, but how
many people are reading aboutthe employment trends, like in
the market and employmenttrends, you know, and here's why
(30:45):
multifamily is a stronginvestment. You know, it's like
there's a lot that no one everjust looks at, that's just,
Gideon Gil (30:52):
we get, we get that knock. I think a lot of, you
know, call it the biggerbrokerage firms, and we put
together our materials we doexactly that, you know, there's
probably four pages that reallymatter in these books, right,
you know, as far as what whatthe deal is really all about.
(31:13):
And then there's definitely,obviously information that
matters, but maybe doesn'tmatter in that first like, cut.
But yeah, we joke around, we'relike, oh, this deals in in New
York City. And then you havelike, a whole section on Central
Park. And, you know, the museumsand whatnot. You're like, does
anybody not know that? You know,but it's sort of like one of
those things. Yeah. You know,sudden you got like an 85 page
book. And people are like, Oh,my God, it's like homework. I
(31:35):
have all this.
Mordecai Rosenberg (31:37):
Yeah, yeah, we do my my team at Greystone.
So we do a quarterly portfolioretention report. So we look at
like all the loans that werepaid off, and how much did we
keep? How much was refinancedwith other lenders, if it was
rigged against other lenders?
Which other lenders if it wassold, like which brokers sold
it, and who did the nextfinancing, but and we would
(31:59):
share it with productionmanagers, people, and everyone
wanted more and moreinformation, right? So like,
went from being like 12 slides?
to Now I think it's like, Idon't know, also, like 55 slides
I said, and I said, Okay, thisis great. We have all this
information. But the next thingis to get it back to two. Right?
Because what's the yes, we haveall this information for anyone
(32:22):
who wants it, but you need to beable to get it down to your two
or three things, which is like,here's the bottom line, here's
where here's, here's whathappened.
Gideon Gil (32:30):
Right? And I think, you know, look, look, our two
firms produce a lot of data andinformation and what's what's
great, you know, both Greystoneand Cushman, it's like, there's
a lot of unsolicited researchreports that come my way. And
the what I've noticed, like moreconsistently is these reports
are really like two to threepages. And I think, you know,
(32:53):
we're saying the same thing thatyou just can get there quicker.
And there's also just so muchtime and data that people can
absorb, like, I would love it,if it was like, you know, 20
pages, and it was like, youknow, really engaging and you
really need and that does exist,and we do sometimes see that,
but like, and certainly likepitches and whatnot are much
more in depth. But, you know, asfar as some of the conclusions
(33:16):
that I think you're referencinghere, yes, you can probably nail
it on, on a couple of pages.
Mordecai Rosenberg (33:21):
Right.
Right. It's like don't assumethat you're the person you're
meeting with has less add thanyou do. Yeah. As a Yeah. So,
your Cushman is is a, you know,is a broker advisor. You guys do
lots of other things, you know,Greystone is a lender. You know,
one thing that I'm curious aboutis, you know, for institutions,
(33:45):
you know, a lot of like, let'ssay that, you know, agency,
business and FHA businesses donewith your, I don't know, 15 to
30 $40 million loan business,right, which is not like your
Blackstone Starwood, you know,KKR, you know, deals. What you
(34:06):
have to do differently to servea big institution, what are
their expectations? You know,what if you if you were giving
advice to a lender, we're, youknow, salesperson or
underwriter? Anyone on the team,but it's like, well, what's the
(34:26):
difference between, you know,doing a deal with someone who
has 10,000 units, you know, andsomeone who has yet 100,000
units, you know, in terms oftheir expectations?
Gideon Gil (34:39):
Yeah, I don't think there's like a one size fits all
answer to that. Right. I think,you know, we laugh about this,
but sometimes you might findsome of these, you know, mid
size, smaller deals are muchmore intense than some of these
bigger institutional deals,right. So to some degree, I
think it's the Certainly theclients, some of these bigger
(35:02):
institutional deals are, are,you know, sometimes much more
down the fairway as far as cashflows and, and leverage points
and things that people arelooking for that are much more,
you know, manageable. And thensometimes some of these smaller
transactions, folks try to getsuper aggressive, and there's a
lot of moving parts. And youknow, it could be much more
(35:24):
challenging. So I think like,the key throughout all of that
is really the preparation,right? It's far as like, kind of
understanding what you're aboutto embark on, what's the journey
on this deal, and really try tounderstand it up front, like a
lot of what we do, really,really early on in our process
(35:44):
is trying to identify what aregoing to be the challenges of,
you know, quote, unquote,selling this transaction, you
know, when we go out to themarket? And, you know, what are
the hardest parts? Is it? Youknow, the real estate taxes? Is
it some rollover, I mean,there's, you know, as we know,
there's tons of things that thatare on every transaction. So I
(36:06):
wouldn't necessarily say it'slike the institutions demand
this level, and then, you know,the midmarket clients would
demand a different level. Like,I don't think that's the
statement, I think it's justreally understanding the
transaction ahead of you, andkind of being as prepared as
possible to communicate what youneed to get done. And I think
(36:29):
there's sort of like a lot ofuniform traits and
characteristics that I think youjust bring to every single deal,
at least, if you want to besuccessful on them. I mean, I
don't think you can go into adeal and say, like, oh, this
deal smaller, and it's a smallerfee, and I'm going to work less
hard. I mean, I think that is arecipe for failure. Yeah. You
know, sometimes it's theopposite. Right? I think you
sometimes have to work evenharder on those on those
(36:51):
transactions. So I would say,you know, perhaps, like the
institutions want more data,right, as far as how they report
and, and kind of look at theirdecision making in that context.
But, but that, overall, I thinkthere's a lot of similarities to
kind of how we approach everyone of those deals.
Mordecai Rosenberg (37:11):
Right?
Right. And to your point, insome ways, it's easier to sell a
deal that's been bought by KKR.
So
Gideon Gil (37:19):
it's a great point, you know, some of these bigger
institutions have a very, verytight following of Capital
Partners, you know, lenders whowant to continue to work with
them, right? So it's like, hey,you know, we want to do another
deal with, you know, one ofthose groups, and they're almost
sometimes making a case to us asto like, you know, why, right.
(37:40):
So it does sort of depend on whothe sponsor is, that definitely
makes, it provides a lot morevisibility into how the
transaction is going to goforward. Right, like a first
time borrower who doesn't haveany, you know, relationships
with some of these lenders. Imean, that's, that certainly
makes it more challenging.
Mordecai Rosenberg (38:00):
Yeah, for sure. We're sitting here, it's
towards the beginning ofDecember 2022. And the market
is, is challenging, and peopleare still trying to, you know,
try and get their arms around.
Yeah, I mean, it's hard tobelieve that it's the same year,
as like January of 2022.
Gideon Gil (38:24):
Yeah, I couldn't agree more with that statement.
Yeah.
Mordecai Rosenberg (38:27):
Yeah. I mean, we were like we were
doing, we were adjusting, and wewere doing value estimates
across the portfolio. And likewe were, we were reducing cap
rates by, you know, 150 basispoints at the beginning of the
year, because of all the theaggressive pricing we were
seeing. And then they blew out300 basis points. You know, what
are you seeing in the markettoday? You How are you at
(38:50):
bottoming? First of all otherpeople aren't buying as much,
although you guys have stilllistened pretty big deals
recently. But how do you serve aclient when they are? They're
not in transactional and supertransactional mode?
Gideon Gil (39:11):
Well, so let's start with where you said, like
between January, December, whathas really changed, right, I
think we went from a freneticcrazy pace, you know, throughout
a lot of 2021, right, a yearago, at this time, we couldn't
even get people on the phone.
Right? It was just like,everybody was so busy, going
through their pipelines gettingtransactions closed. And, you
(39:32):
know, it was honestly it wasvery exciting, right? It's sort
of was like, Oh, finally, thisis our reward after the
pandemic. You know, now we havebeen sitting in homes, we
haven't been as transactional,right? And all of a sudden 2021
proved to be like an incrediblybusy year. And a lot of that
carried over into the firstquarter of this year, right
(39:56):
where I think even though thesort of Seeds of, you know,
inflation and rates are going tomove higher, we're definitely
being spoken about. It wassomething where it, it sort of,
I think it took a while forpeople to sort of really realize
that that happened. And that'sgoing to really result in where
we are right now in December.
Right, where you kind of fastforward. And, you know, what
(40:20):
we're doing is we're kind of,candidly, I think we're being
more advisors than ever, right,in the sense of working with
clients. It's a lot of processesthat have an intended goal. But
I think we have to be realistic,like that goal may not happen in
this calendar year, it may nothappen in next calendar year.
(40:43):
But it's sort of saying veryclose to a situation. So that
when the market does break, youhave done everything possible to
set yourself up to perform foryour client at that point.
Right. So again, it comes downto sort of like that, what can I
do for you? How can I beprepared in order to you know,
because at some point, again,we've probably been in this
(41:07):
industry a while, you know, thisis not the first time I've seen
things sort of seize up. Andit's certainly somehow always
feels like a bit of a surprisewhen it does happen. But the
other part is, it's like these,these moments, while you're in
them, seem like they're nevergoing to end they do change and
things do eventually improve.
But it's sort of just like kindof being around your base, and
(41:28):
sort of making sure that theyunderstand you're there for
them. And you're not only therefor them when you can make
money, right? Like I hate to saythat way, it's just like you're
there for them. Because youknow, you're committed to seeing
your clients succeed. And therewill be times where it's easy,
and everybody's happy. Andthere'll be times where it's
(41:48):
challenging. And it takes alonger time and maybe have to
wait longer for the success tohappen. But it's sort of just
kind of staying connected tothose, you know, clients and
those transactions for as longas you can.
Mordecai Rosenberg (42:01):
Yeah. So let's say you have a client,
they have a loan, that's gonnabe maturing, I don't know, let's
say sometime next year, youenter next year. Right, so and
then, what are you telling themtoday? They're getting nervous?
Like, what? Yeah, I don't know,what's going to happen, where
the markets gonna be? How areyou advising a client like that
(42:21):
to prepare for that comingevent?
Gideon Gil (42:25):
Yes. So it's, it's getting there early, right. So
that, you know, sometimes, look,I think clients are even in good
markets are really looking attheir book and sort of figuring
out like, they're not waiting,you know, three months before a
loan matures to kind of run abroker process, right? And
figure out like, hey, go tothese lenders, most folks are
(42:46):
getting ahead of it, I thinkfolks are getting ahead of their
loan maturities earlier. And Ithink in the cases where they
feel like it's going to be achallenge, for whatever the
reason, whether it's value,whether it's, you know,
refinancing proceeds, they'retrying to get in front of that
early and early with theirlender, right? I think if
(43:09):
there's one lesson that Ilearned and took away from the
financial crisis, which was, youknow, like 1415 years ago, but
yet still feels extremelyrelevant. You know, as far as
like that sort of seminal momentin a career, right, when you
kind of like, feel like, wow,that was when everything
changed. And you saw a lot of,of how people performed and
(43:35):
behaved in the market. And thething that I seem to take away
was the operators who kind oftried to do everything they
could to figure it out, and workcollaboratively and
transparently. And this is notlike, perfect, right? It didn't
always work out this way. Butthose were the ones that seem to
kind of ride out of thesecrisis, or these challenging
(43:57):
situations in better shape. Theones that seem to take a
adversarial approach, like mayhave won some battles, but
probably didn't win the wars,you know, when it came to the
relationship stuff. So, youknow, and the nice thing about
our industry is like, people dotend to have short memories and,
(44:18):
and can kind of move on and youknow, again, to a better cycle,
and you're successful, and folkswant to work with you. But it
does feel like we're in one ofthose moments where
collaboration is going to be socritical. And to think you could
just do it by yourself is Ithink, I think it's tough. Like
I think you want to have thebest people around you both
(44:39):
internally and you know,advisors externally like
whatever in order to kind ofhelp you figure it out.
Mordecai Rosenberg (44:45):
Yeah. I think that that's right and for
the lenders to to be to overcommunicate with their clients,
right, not just to wait till sixmonths before before maturity,
but really to be checked. Andthen like, where is everything?
Okay, and just, you know, justto make sure. I mean, I remember
(45:07):
during the financial crisis thatyou're right, we one of the
things that there was verylittle of it seemed like was
communication. You know, and youhad, I remember having clients
when good properties, but theyhad maturing CMBS. You know,
they defaulted. And they theywere, they had properties were
foreclosed without a singlephone call to the client. It
(45:29):
just,
Gideon Gil (45:30):
Yeah, it sort of goes back to like this, this is
very much business is very muchabout relationships. Right? And
you really, look, you reallywant to do everything you can
to, to protect thoserelationships. And it works both
ways. Right? It's like, look, wehear it from lenders right now,
(45:51):
where they're like, they knowthey have some problem loans.
But there are two borrowers whothey really value those
relationships. And the easything would be to just say,
let's just sell the note andmove on and put it into somebody
else's hands, it becomes someoneelse's problem. But it again, it
is a two way street. And peoplerealize it's like, you know, we
(46:11):
can't just do that we can onlybe there for people in the good
times, like and not be there inthe bad times. And that's
something that I think thebetter capital providers
realize, now. Now, granted, someof them are regulated, so they
don't really have a choice,right. So at some point, you
know, the clock does one down,and you have to do what you have
to do. But, you know, I thinkfolks are trying to manage those
(46:34):
relationships so that when we doall come out of moments like
this, you're not isolated, andyou're not like, oh, I closed up
shop, I didn't do any lending. Ididn't return phone calls, and
everybody was on their own. Andit's like, yeah, it's like,
well, that says something about,you know, the road ahead with
you, you know, so it's, it's,it's important.
Mordecai Rosenberg (46:55):
Yeah. Ya know, that that makes that makes
sense. Are you seeing any banksor lenders start to sell loans?
You know, you're kind ofdistressed, loan sales.
Gideon Gil (47:10):
Yes. So there's definitely that momentum in the
market right now. And we we haveour team here in New York,
handles, a bunch of that, youknow, with with Adam Spees and
Doug's team. And then we have anote sales team that's, you
know, based in DC that kind ofreally runs that around the
(47:30):
country, both in good marketsand challenging markets. And,
you know, we've definitely seenan uptick, I think it's been, to
some degree, it's been a littlebit more one off at this point,
right. It's not like what wesaw, where, you know, you'd have
like, huge portfolios of loansbeing sold, in order just to
create huge liquidity for someof these institutions to
(47:51):
survive. Like, I haven't seenanything even close to that yet.
So I think there's a lot of justlike, the ones we can figure out
a blend and extend or some paydown, like if there's still
value to be had, but it's justbad timing, like, those
situations, I know, are gettingworked on behind the scenes,
we're working on some of those.
I think it's the one where thevalue is clearly changed. You
(48:14):
know, it's, it's whether it'slike, you know, potentially an
office building or a groundlease situation, leasehold.
Like, those are the ones that Iwe're we're definitely seeing
much, much more momentum onright now.
Mordecai Rosenberg (48:31):
Yeah. Yeah, it's, you have to know the
business that you're in. Yeah.
And the businesses that you'rein, but But you may not know it,
you know, so like, with with ourwith with real estate owners,
you think you're in the realestate business, let's say a
multifamily owner, are youthinking what you do is you
bought you own apartments andyou manage apartments? But, you
(48:52):
know, what I've said, is thatthe fundamentals in the
multifamily market, like they'vealways been strong, we've never
really not been strong, even inthe financial crisis, they were
strong. The risk that you havewith multifamily is low
maturity, you know, or, or Iguess, like a fund redemption.
But your, your hope is that whenyour loan is maturing, that the
(49:13):
market is not in a place wherethere's no liquidity, you know,
it's there. We both sell lots ofgreat real estate that was lost
in the financial crisis, justbecause at that moment, no
lenders were there. So I think,you know, multifamily owners,
real estate owners like whenthey finance it, probably some
have larger debt strategies, butI feel like a lot of them, it's
(49:36):
like, well, how do I maximizethe return on this, this
acquisition, you know, based onwhere the market is today, and
then they don't realize thatthey're also in the debt
management. If you're in the ifyou're in the real estate
market, you're also in the debtmanagement market. Yeah. And you
want to be diversified in thatregard in terms of maturities
and the types. So I wonder iflike one thing that that people
(49:58):
could Do Is it to sit with theclient. And yes, they're worried
about the maturity next year.
But it's also an opportunity,when things aren't as frenetic
to sit back with a client andsay, look, let's look at your
whole debt portfolio. And let'scome up with a strategy of where
we'd like this to be like, fiveyears from now, you know, and
start putting in place a plan,because at some point, the
(50:20):
markets are going to open up,and let's not be in this
situation, let's try to see wecould not be in a situation
again, with a more holistic,holistic approach.
Gideon Gil (50:30):
No, agreed. I think that's probably one of the
reasons why, you know, last yearwas such a busy year in the
financing markets, because, youknow, I know, we had several
transactions where there wasn'ta looming maturity date. But you
know, we and sponsors kind ofgot together and said, You know,
it's not gonna get much betterthan it is right now, you know,
(50:51):
the, you pay a little prepaymentpenalty, but you locked this
thing up for another 10 years,and you kind of put it away. And
there was some folks that werelike, all over that a lot of a
lot of people. And then there'ssome folks that were like, took
a little bit of approach, likenow, you know, I don't want to
pay that prepayment penalty, andI don't think rates are moving
higher. And anytime soon,there's, you know, the Omicron,
(51:15):
or whatever, you know, it waslike, on a stuff that, you know,
and again, you know, you justnever know, so, but I do agree
with you being strategic, as faras, like how you approach your
whole portfolio, like, you know,I definitely had more
conversations with folks aboutchallenging refinancings,
(51:35):
because there were more likevalue added plans, and the
timing is just bad, right?
They're just like, not done yet.
And their loan is up formaturity. Right. So those are
situations that are somewhatunavoidable, just because the
the business plan got delayedduring the pandemic, and now
it's, you know, a year or twobehind. So those are ones we're
definitely working through andtrying to work with lenders to
(51:56):
sort of figure out if there's anorganic extension, or if we have
to go back out to market. Youknow, the, the other part of
that equation is like,obviously, the cost of that
capital is moved up materially,the we have sort of the opposite
issue right now, where I'm sureyou're seeing this. Most of the
borrowers and frankly, most ofthe lenders we're working with
right now seem to have the mostcapital available for shorter
(52:18):
term financing, because theysort of feel two things. One is
they, the lenders feel like it'smuch more economical to lend,
you know, they can pay moreright now based on the indices
and the Treasury. And candidly,the spreads, and the borrower's
feel like, well, I'd rather takethe short term hit in the next
24 months. Yeah, I'm still goingto work on my business plan, and
(52:41):
the fundamentals in multifamilylargely are still pretty strong.
And I'd rather not lock into,you know, a loan at a coupon of
like five and three quarterspercent or 6%, when I really
believe it's going to be fourand a half or four and three
quarters percent in 24 monthsfrom now. So, you know, we're
kind of everyone's sort of likefiguring that out as well, as we
(53:03):
kind of, you know, wade throughthis this time here.
Mordecai Rosenberg (53:06):
Yeah. All right. Well, Gideon, this has
been really enlightening. Andit's, it's nice to hear the
Yeah, I mean, clearly remaincalm. Yeah. Even in the eye of
the storm that we're that we'reyou're currently in. So yeah, I
really appreciate you coming ona lot of really great points.
(53:27):
And it's gonna make me thinkabout storytelling. A lot. I
think it's a real, it's a reallyinvaluable point. If people take
it to heart.
(53:57):
Amen.
Gideon Gil (53:58):
Amen. All right.
Let's go get 'em!
Mordecai Rosenberg (53:59):
Alright.
Talk to you later Gideon.
Gideon Gil (54:01):
Thanks.
Mordecai Rosenberg (54:01):
Take care.
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