July 4, 2023 • 31 mins
In this episode our team (Ashley, Blake, Joe, and Addi) talks about our takeaways and recommendations from the book Beloved Economies by Jess Rimington and Joanna Levitt Cea. We also dig into what changes we could be making in our own company.
In the book there is a quote explaining the title. “A beloved economy comes from treating with care and reverence “the autonomous power of everyone’s story,” and from each of us being able to contribute to, and access, abundance….”
The core concept in the book to achieve this is to distribute rights to design. "Rights to design are what we exercise when we imagine, decide, and build together". Our current system has these rights to design held by a few, which consolidates wealth and power in a reinforcing pattern that keeps this wealth and power within a small group.
To distribute rights to design and build a beloved economy, they share 7 practices:
- Share decision-making power
- Prioritize relationships
- Reckon with history
- Seek difference
- Source from multiple ways of knowledge
- Trust there is time
- Prototype early and often
You can get in touch with us to ask questions, leave comments, or provide suggestions on our website, https://osiolabs.com/.
Osio Labs is tinkering with Open Source Inside and Out. We’re on a mission to empower anyone to build websites using open source tools, and to create an open and sustainable business.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Addi (00:01):
Hi, this is Addison Berry, and you were listening to the
Osio Labs podcast.
The show that explores thequestion, how can we create
sustainable businesses that carefor people and make the world a
better place?
On today's episode, I'm joinedby my colleagues, Ashley Jones,
Blake Hall, and Joe Shindelar.
This is episode number four,which will be a book chat about
Beloved Economies (00:23):
Transforming How We Work by Jess Rimington
and Joanna Levitt Cea.
"A beloved economy comes fromtreating with care and reverence
the autonomous power ofeveryone's story.
And from each of us being ableto contribute to, and access,
abundance." The core concept inthe book to achieve this is to
(00:44):
distribute rights to design.
Rights to design are what weexercise when we imagine, decide
and build together.
Our current system has theserights to design held by a few,
which consolidates wealth andpower in a reinforcing pattern
that keeps this wealth and powerwithin a small group.
To distribute rights to designand build a beloved economy they
(01:05):
share seven practices.
Share decision making power.
Prioritize relationships.
Reckon with history.
Seek difference.
Source from multiple ways ofknowledge.
Trust there is time.
Prototype early and often.
In this episode, our team talksabout our takeaways and
recommendations as well as whatchanges we should be making on
(01:28):
our team.
So my first question is, dideverybody actually finish the
book?
Joe (01:35):
I finished the book though.
I also.
There were a couple sectionsthat I skimmed through pretty
quick.
There's, it's, the book is kindof divided up where there will
be a chapter that is sort ofthe, you know, key takeaway, one
of the key takeaways.
And then there will be a chapterthat is kind of the like, and
here's the anecdote thatexplains to you how we know that
(01:58):
this is the key takeaway.
And I, I read all of theanecdotes, but some of'em I read
through, I skimmed throughpretty quick.
Addi (02:05):
Same.
Blake (02:07):
I totally skipped the acknowledgements and the end
notes.
Addi (02:11):
Yes.
Ashley (02:12):
Yeah.
Addi (02:13):
Yeah.
I did not go through all of theappendices that they had,
through some of it, but I, Idefinitely was like, Hmm, I
don't need all of the backgrounddetails.
Ashley (02:26):
Right.
Addi (02:27):
Yeah.
So overall impressions.
What is your overall impressionof the book and would you
recommend it for others to reador not?
Blake (02:41):
I think for me, the existence of all of the
appendices kind of providesevidence for my overall
impression, which was that it'svery thoroughly researched and
it felt very academic at times.
I think when you're talkingabout this sort of stuff,
precise vocabulary is important,so I don't wanna discount that,
but were parts that felt jargonyand academic and sort of were a
(03:06):
little bit of word salad.
That could just be my ignorancein sort of the, the field, or it
could just be the way the bookwas written.
But my impression was that itwas a very seriously and well
thought through researched pieceof work for better and worse.
Joe (03:26):
I would say Blake, that really kind of.
Is a great way of summarizinghow I was feeling about it and I
wasn't quite sure what to sayand that sort of like, it reads
more like an academic paper thana novel.
And at points I especiallybecause there are a bunch of
these anecdotal stories in therethat do read a bit more like a
(03:48):
novel where they're, you know,it's like telling a story and
less academic.
And then there are the partsthat are very like, We need to
stick to the words that we'veestablished, cite our
quotations, all of that andthose parts were a little harder
for me to read because I wouldjust kind of like start to glaze
(04:10):
over a little, but.
That said, I appreciate theeffort that was put into doing
things like, you know, at theoutset of the book, they put a
bunch of energy intoestablishing some common
vocabulary.
Like we're going to use thewords business as usual and
beloved economies.
And there was a couple otherones, breakout actors.
(04:32):
And this is what we mean when wesay those words.
Which I guess is good cuz thenit goes on to say those words a
lot through the rest of thebook.
Ashley (04:43):
You know, I've been sitting here like thinking about
would I recommend this book?
I feel like that was like thequestion, and I feel like.
For me personally, kind of likeJoe and Blake both said that the
academic jargon did kind ofglaze me over a bit and I do
(05:06):
much better with, the anecdotal,the, the, the parts that, um
directly reflect real life andthey're giving real life
examples.
Like, I can get into that.
I can, I can envision myselfthere, I can see it, but when it
gets really wordy, I, I do get alittle sleepy.
(05:28):
And that's not to take away fromthe book, I thought, you know,
it gave great insights into likewhat work could be.
And I love the idea of thebeloved economy.
But if I would, if I have todecide whether I would recommend
it or not, I think I kind of sitdead center like 50 50.
It kind of just depends on whatyou enjoy.
(05:48):
I think if you're somebody morelike me, I would, I would
probably say no.
Joe (05:56):
I wonder if, so all of the book has seven key takeaways
from that they want you to learnor like the business practices
that they want you to thinkabout and try.
And for me, none of them werenew.
Like they, maybe they describedit in ways that I hadn't heard
before, but they were allapproaches that I am conscious
(06:19):
of already.
I think things that we largelydo at work already, and in some
ways because of that, I wonderif that made it sort of a little
like, yeah, yeah.
Ashley (06:32):
agreed.
Joe (06:33):
I, I know what you're trying to say here.
Fewer words is, would be fine,but maybe because I'm.
You know, maybe I'm not exactlythe target audience because
these concepts aren't new to meand they are things that we are
already largely putting intopractice.
Addi (06:49):
Like, we're already on board with this, this concept
and these practices.
So it's sort of, yeah, I, Iagree.
Like I, I mean, I wouldrecommend the book, but I
wouldn't recommend the book toeverybody.
I.
Ashley (07:04):
Right.
Addi (07:05):
You know, it would really depend on who I was talking to
and what I thought they mightget out of the book.
And so it would really, for me,it's like a case by case basis
thing.
But I do think there, there is alot of really good, rich
information in there.
And I think in particular, whenI think about who I would like
(07:25):
to read the book, you know, orit would be, you know, people
who, haven't stopped to thinkabout why we work the way we do.
Cuz it kind of, it sets a sortof a case for this is why we
think work doesn't work.
This is all the stuff that'sactually going on underneath
(07:47):
everything.
And then these are the ways wesee that changing.
And I think ex exposing someoneto these ideas and getting
people to think about it, thatwould be great.
And I would love for people toread that and take that away
from it if nothing else.
Joe (08:03):
Yeah, I totally agree with that.
I feel like for myself, thestrongest part of the book was
the beginning where they, theytalk a lot about just kind of
you know, define, define work.
How is it that we ended up withthis definition of this is how
workplaces should operate.
(08:24):
Why do we think that we can'tchange the way that they
operate?
And these were all questionsthat I definitely found myself
being like, oh yeah.
I, I totally fall into thingsfrom time to time where it's
like the quote unquote businessas usual, and I'm just doing it
this way because like, well,that's the way you're supposed
to do it.
(08:44):
And I like that This book reallymade me go, why?
Why do I think that this is theway that I'm supposed to do it?
Who said that this is the waythat I'm supposed to do it, and
why can't I do it a differentway?
Uh, and, and that, that part forsure, and I would recommend this
book to people, especially basedon that, just to get you
thinking about it's okay tothink about business outside of
(09:06):
the box.
And one way to do that is tounder help to sort of do the
internal work of understandingwhy do I think that this is the
way that a business should berun and I dunno, a little bit of
like, you have to know the rulesbefore you can break the rules.
Addi (09:22):
Yeah.
Or I think of it as like youhave to see the cage you're in
in order to break out of it.
Joe (09:27):
Yeah.
Addi (09:28):
You know, like,
Blake (09:29):
And then, coupled with the beginning of that, like the
last chapter for me was alsoreally eyeopening where they
talked about some of thecollaboration they're doing with
people who look at biomimicryand study like natural systems
and natural processes and youknow, spoiler alert, but they're
presented with a paper wherebasically they independently.
(09:50):
Came up across a collection ofvery similar principles and it's
like, yeah, it turns out naturalselection and you know, the sort
of real world has been doingthings following similar
guidelines for hundreds ofthousands of years probably, cuz
it's a good way for organisms tosurvive and adapt.
(10:11):
So
Addi (10:13):
Yeah.
Blake (10:13):
it's almost like as humans, you know, like we're
looking to, to the wrong.
Models or guidelines on how tobe happy and successful and you
know, whatever that means andall of that.
I thought the way they sort oftied that together at the end
was really good.
Addi (10:30):
Yeah, and just again, the idea that we are living by a set
of guidelines, it's just thatmost of us aren't aware of them.
We just assume that that is thenatural order because we've
been.
Conditioned to, to believe that.
so I like, I like that aspectand like for me, I think in
terms of takeaway from the book,like I think it is a good book
(10:52):
and I did get a lot out of it.
And I think, so I think likethat aspect of it, of just sort
of really making you question.
Why do you believe this is theway it should be?
But honestly, sort of back towhat Joe was saying is like,
these are things that I, I'vealready bought into.
This is already something Ibelieve in and and want to
(11:13):
manifest.
And so in a lot of ways, justreading this book was oh yeah,
I'm not alone.
There are a lot of other peopleout there who are thinking these
things and working on them andactually like implementing and
figuring it out.
and that's really heartening andhopeful.
So there was a lot of hope thatI took away from this book is
(11:34):
yes, okay.
I'm not crazy.
This is real and we can dosomething about it.
And it was just like, oh gosh,that's, that's nice.
That feels good.
Joe (11:43):
I totally had moments where the book is like, you know,
they're telling a story andsomeone like, and then this part
was really hard.
And I'm like, yeah, it is.
I feel the same way.
And, and then you might start todoubt yourself and wonder if
this is even possible.
And I'm like, yeah, I definitelyfeel that doubt sometimes.
(12:05):
It was, yeah, it resonated withme in that way.
And other people are alsodealing with the same things.
You're not alone.
Other people are also, you know,working on figuring out ways to
do things different and practicethis stuff and let's.
Blake (12:22):
Well, and another aspect of that, like you, you've
mentioned that you know, as acompany it feels, it does feel
very much like we've bought intothese things and we're doing
fairly well with most of them,but we're also five people.
So there's that classic case oflike, you go to read a business
book and there are all thesecase studies.
And it's like, well, when you'rerunning a meeting of 300 people,
(12:45):
this is how you can go aboutbuilding consensus in an
innovative way.
And I just find myself kind oflaughing and being like, I don't
even know how I'd go about that.
We have five people and it's wayeasier because you can literally
just hear from everybody and,and go around a circle.
So there's some of that I wasreally impressed with, with a
bunch of the stories because itfeels like they're doing things.
(13:08):
At scale that I didn'tnecessarily know would be
successful.
So I thought that wasinteresting because a lot of
times when, at least for me,when I talk about, you know, our
company or, or my work withother people who ha who probably
haven't bought into this kind ofthing, they're always like, oh,
well that wouldn't work in a, abig company.
(13:28):
And I'm like, well, I don't knowif it would either, but you
should try.
And hear a whole bunch ofstories of people seeing success
with that, which I thought waswas great to see.
Addi (13:39):
Any other big takeaways or impressions?
Ashley (13:45):
I guess I, oh, go ahead, Joe.
Joe (13:47):
ahead, Ashley.
Addi (13:48):
Um,
Ashley (13:49):
Oh.
I was just gonna say that I feelyou know, though me included,
didn't have a lot of context asto why work wasn't working, from
a.
You know, this academic researchperspective, I knew why it
didn't work for me in the past,you know what I mean?
(14:10):
And I think, I think a lot ofpeople feel that way.
I mean, most people that I knowand talk to feel that way about
work, you know what I mean?
Like they feel like a slave totheir job.
So then to read in the bookthat, you know, a lot of the
ways that work works, arederived from plantations is
(14:30):
like,
Addi (14:31):
Yeah,
Ashley (14:32):
like, no wonder everybody feels like a slave to
their job.
It's like, because you are, youliterally are, you know?
So I, I liked being able to havecontext to my feelings because
it, it wasn't like a lot ofpeople said, it wasn't novel
things.
It wasn't brand new to know thatpeople are burned out or
(14:53):
stressed or, you know what Imean?
But it is, it was helpful to Beable to put some, some factual
context behind it.
Like, you know, here are thestatistics, this is where these
practices came from and this iswhy you feel this way.
It's like, huh.
Got it.
Makes a lot more sense now.
Addi (15:12):
Totally.
Ashley (15:13):
Yeah.
Joe (15:14):
Do you feel like it and it like, did it prompt you to think
about those things then too?
Ashley (15:23):
Yeah, definitely.
Like.
It, it made me think about why Ihad felt that way, for sure.
and I think because I don't feelthat way at all anymore, it was
kind of just like, huh, a lot ofpeople are still really going
through this, you know?
Joe (15:42):
I wonder if, kind of back to the question of would you
recommend this book or who wouldyou recommend it to?
You know, there's.
This leads me to that kind oflike, well, maybe for people who
are, are feeling like I'm notenjoying work.
I feel like a slave to my job.
This book has a lot of, it cangive you a lot of words to use
to talk about the way thatyou're feeling and also help
(16:04):
better understand why it is thatyou feel that way.
Ashley (16:08):
For sure, especially when it's painted like it's
supposed.
To be the norm and this is justwhat we do and to like feel
outside of that can, can beuncomfortable.
So to, to give it some contextand some some reason I think
could be really helpful.
For sure.
Addi (16:28):
something else that I took from where I appreciated, I
guess, in this book where Idon't know.
So one of the, there's some likesort of caveats I feel like, in
that they have a whole chapteron resistance.
Even though most people arebeing oppressed by this system,
because the system is designedto put power and wealth into the
(16:48):
hands of the few A as a whole,we still resist this kind of
change.
And so, and I thought that wasvery important to have in the
book because it's an oftenoverlooked thing when it comes
to any kind of change is yes,this sounds great and it's
wonderful, but it's not an easyroad to change the way that
(17:09):
people think when they've been.
Brought up that way their wholelives.
and then another sort of I guesscaveat, I'm not sure like where
this falls, but one of thethings I thought was interesting
is there's a thread through thewhole book and then you talk
about a little bit at the end interms of implementation is in
inner work.
A lot of this stuff requiresinner work.
(17:30):
And so if you don't have a groupof people who are willing or
able to do that inner work,you're not gonna get very far
with it.
And I feel like that sort ofbrought up in there, but not, I
feel like that that can be inthese organizations they're
talking about and like say inour company, I feel like that
(17:51):
that is not a barrier that wehave because people are
self-reflective and willing toinquire themselves.
But there are lots and lots andlots of groups where people
aren't there.
So even if they're feeling thepain of work not working and
they can see this picture of,that would be awesome.
(18:12):
They may not be in a place wherethey're willing or able to do
the inner work to get there withother people.
And I feel like that's a.
I don't, it's just like athought that was sort of
bouncing around in my head as Ifinished reading the book is
that's also a barrier and a, akind of a resistance that is
hard to deal with, I think.
(18:34):
I mean, it's not one that I'vehad to deal with in the, in the
context of, of here, but anyway,it was just one of those yeah,
this is great, but youdefinitely need people who are
willing to actually.
Do that inner work and take somepersonal risks in that way, and
not everybody is.
Joe (18:55):
I think for me, one of the takeaways related to that too
was doing that inner work andputting any of these seven
principles into practice isongoing work.
It's not a thing that you canjust do once and then be like,
cool, did it, we're awesome now.
And you, there's alwaysopportunity to keep doing the
(19:19):
things and.
While like, yeah, our currentworkplace is a safe place to do
that kind of inner work.
And I think all of us here arepeople who are willing to do it.
There's still an opportunity tolike be prompted to do it, be
reminded to do it, to makespace, to do it, and a little
(19:39):
bit of like, you know, it is.
You can be willing to do thework, but you also have to have
the space to do it.
And sometimes you have to havesomeone tell you like, Hey, uh,
at this team retreat that we'reon, the thing that you're gonna
do now is go sit by yourself forhalf an hour and ponder this
(19:59):
question.
and you might, you know, for meit's like I might have some
initial resistance, like, Ugh,that seems lame, and then I'll
do it.
And I'm like, oh, I'm reallyglad that someone forced me to
sit down and think about this.
Addi (20:10):
Mm-hmm.
Joe (20:12):
And, and I saw that as being true with all of these
seven principles that they had,where it was like, I think we
practice all of these things,but in each of them, I felt like
there was also opportunity forus to remember to be diligent
about doing it.
you know, one of'em was, uh,like fostering relationships.
(20:32):
And I, I feel like as a team, wedo a, a.
Really good job of communicatingwith one another and developing
relationships and being open,but it's also, especially with a
small team of five, it's easy tosort of take for granted.
Like, oh, we all get along andeveryone's.
Everything is fine.
And you know, one of theirexamples was start your meetings
(20:54):
with a prompt that asks people,you know, more or less like, how
was your weekend?
and develop relationships inthat way.
And it just made me think about,it's like, yeah, I have a good
relationship with all of mycoworkers, but like
relationships with anyone.
You have to continue to work onthose relationships.
And just showing up for meetingsand talking about what tickets
you're working on in GitHubisn't really developing the
(21:15):
relationship in the same waythat.
Making space, intentional spaceto have conversations about like
how's the rest of your life?
Yeah.
Addi (21:25):
Yeah.
And so, I mean for the, the lastquestion I had on my list was
how do you think we're doing onthese practices?
And is there any one thing thatstands out?
Because yes, we can always beimproving.
And I think, I feel like yes,we.
Definitely address thesepractices in how we do our work.
There's plenty of room forimprovement in all of them, but
(21:47):
is there anything in particularthat you walked away from and
was like, huh, you know, maybewe should X, or you know, we
could take a look at Y orsomething like that.
Did anything like that stand outto you all in terms of our
company and how we interact?
Blake (22:04):
I think for me, I thought Joe was talking about the
prioritizing relationships, uh,practice and I, I think
internally we do a really goodjob of that, but I think
historically we've struggledtrying to engage a little bit
more with our members and ourcustomers that way.
I think we do a great job of itwhen they come to us for
support, but it's, it's kind ofalways a challenge to figure out
(22:28):
how to do that in a moreintentional way, externally.
so that's a place where I thinkwe're all aware of that and I
think we all want to improvethere.
We just sort of don't know how.
So for me, that's the biggestone that I think we probably
need to work on.
Ashley (22:44):
I think I would agree with Blake in terms of the
relationship, aspect, and Iagree with the external piece.
And it kind of, you know, ledinto my customer success
project.
Cause you know, I do think wecould strengthen those
relationships for sure.
but I think, and it might bebecause I am the last person to
(23:11):
have joined the team, you know,I feel like I could do better
internally also because I feellike, you know, you guys have
much.
Stronger, personalrelationships, with each other,
you know?
And I know that's cause you guyshave known each other longer,
you've worked with each otherlonger.
but I think it stood out to mebecause we talk about our
(23:32):
weekends, like on our fivefifteens and you know, little
personal tidbits here and there.
But I think for me it made itlike, you know, you could, you
could put more of an effort inthat area, you know?
Yeah.
Joe (23:49):
I, so Ashley, you mentioned the five fifteens, and so
internally we do this thingwhere once a week we more or
less You know, fill out a surveywhere that has a handful of
questions that asks how yourweek was, and then everyone else
on the team gets to see what yousaid.
And so, you know, we'redeveloping relationships with
one another through seeing whatpeople are working on and what
(24:10):
they're excited about and whatthey're struggling with.
I, after reading this book, whenI thought about our five
fifteens, and one of the thingsthat I think we could
potentially do to improve themwould be to, Change the
questions from time to time orlike have a one question that is
unique each week because it,after having done this for a
(24:31):
while, the questions become, andmy answers to the questions
become a little bit rote andthey become very work focused.
and it seemed like there wouldmaybe an opportunity to, you
know, maybe it's not the.
Prompt at the beginning of ameeting that's like, all right,
everybody needs to tell everyonehow their weekend was.
But if we added it to thatweekly survey, but have it be a
(24:53):
different question each week,how, you know, how was your
weekend?
But also what's your favoritesong?
Why do you think peanut butteris the best flavor of ice cream?
Um, things
Addi (25:04):
Okay, for for listeners, this is a longstanding battle
within the company between Joeand Ashley about ice cream.
So I'm just, this is why we'relaughing about that.
Ashley (25:16):
Peanut butter is certainly not.
Joe (25:19):
But, but, and we you know, interestingly and related, this
is an ongoing debate betweenAshley and I that is, Part of
the definition of ourrelationship that started
because at some point we were ina place where we got to have
that conversation about like,what's your favorite flavor of
ice cream?
And I just feel like, you know,there we could take advantage of
(25:42):
some of the things we're alreadydoing, like this weekly five 15
survey to ask more of thosetypes of questions and just
deepen those relationships andkeep putting in that work that's
required to make them stronger.
Addi (25:59):
I think for me, one of the things that kept sitting with me
was sort of back to Blake'sthing with the external
relationships with ourcustomers, and specifically in
the context of one of the thingsthey talk about a lot in the
book, which is rights to designand having everybody at the
(26:22):
table so that it's not like, Youknow, the hands of the few are
then distributing, you know, orcontrolling or deciding.
And I feel like, you know, inthe work that we do, our
customers are part of thisexperience, right?
And they don't sit at the table.
(26:43):
Sometimes we ask them questionsand, and we definitely are open
to feedback.
But as it goes into, you know,in that chapter in the book,
like that's not.
That's not actually gettingpeople to the table and, and
making it accessible and makingit something that they're going
to engage in.
And so I feel like that's a, anarea that we could really see
how that could really change ourbusiness and our product and,
(27:06):
and just sort of everything wedo.
If we could think about a way toreally, really have our
customers be an equal at thetable instead of, and like I, I
have this quote from, Towardsthe end of the book, that really
struck me with that, which wasLoveless ways of work are often
about speaking for, creating,for marketing toward, or
(27:26):
managing on behalf of all ofwhich, in practice, uphold a
conceptual notion that there isa homogenous other, our
customers, a subject apart fromthe person doing the action,
whose unchosen role is toreceive it.
And so it's like, I was like,Hmm, yeah, what would that look
like?
If we actually had customerspart of our creation process,
(27:51):
instead of just giving usfeedback after the fact or, you
know, o occasionally doing asurvey and hoping that people
wanna answer our questions.
So anyway, that's one that I washas been sort of kicking around
on my head since reading thisbook.
That could be a really weird andwild change.
I don't know what that lookslike.
I don't know how we would do it,but it's just something that's
(28:13):
kicking around for
Joe (28:14):
I went through the thought process while reading the book
of You know, si Similarly, kindof like, I feel like we do these
things really well internally.
We develop relationships, weshare prototypes.
We, you know, share knowledgeand learn from one another, but
we don't do as good of a job aswe could of having that same
kind of relationship with quoteunquote our stakeholders, like
(28:37):
the people that we're actuallybuilding this thing for.
cuz it turns out we're we'rebuilding the Drupalize.Me
website for the members of thesite, not for one another.
And so in that I was like, huh,we should what?
Maybe we should have, what wouldit look like if there were like
people who are members ofDrupalize.Me, also on say the
(28:58):
board of directors forDrupalize.Me.
And I was like, well, that'snot.
That's not how business works.
You can't do
Addi (29:05):
Not business as usual,
Joe (29:07):
That's the whole point is I need to think about, huh?
Is that possible?
Addi (29:12):
Mm-hmm.
Joe (29:13):
What would that kind of thing look like?
And I had a few moments readingthe book where I totally was
like, well, you're not supposedto do, no, I am supposed to
challenge that assumption.
Addi (29:25):
It's like, it's like whenever you have that thought,
that's immediately like a star.
That's like, aha, you're ontosomething here and you need to
lean into that instead ofbacking away.
Yeah.
Joe (29:37):
But it made me think about the prototyping, sharing
prototypes, get, gettingfeedback from your stakeholders
chapter definitely made me thinkabout similarly, Addi, we could
do a better job of that.
I don't know what that lookslike yet.
But you know, we do a lot ofwork internally when we're, for
(29:58):
example, developing the outlinefor a set of tutorials that
we're going to create.
And then we all internally lookat it and we go, yeah, that'd be
great.
I assume everybody's gonna wannalearn this.
and then we create it.
And I think there's anopportunity there for us to
Addi (30:13):
Mm-hmm.
Joe (30:15):
bring more people to the table, bring more stakeholders
to the table.
Addi (30:19):
Yeah, well we can continue this conversation on our team
calls.
we should probably wrap up thepodcast for now.
Look at that half an houralready went by.
Ashley (30:32):
That was
Addi (30:32):
fast.
yeah.
Yeah, it's cool to talk aboutthis stuff.
So yeah, thanks for reading thebook, taking the time.
Wading through the words and,and then coming to talk about
it.
I do think this is a reallythought provoking book and I'm
glad that we read it as a teamand we can have some, some
(30:53):
further conversations, on ourteam calls.
I think in the coming months,for sure.
Hey, so thanks for listening andlet us know if you have
questions, comments, orsuggestions for what you'd like
to hear more about.
You can find all of the variousways to reach us on our
website@osiolabs.com.
That's O S I O L A B S.com.
(31:19):
Also, please make sure tosubscribe to the podcast on your
podcast provider of choice.
We'll catch you on the nextepisode.
Hi, this is Addison Berry, and you were listening to the
Osio Labs podcast.
The show that explores thequestion, how can we create
sustainable businesses that carefor people and make the world a
better place?
On today's episode, I'm joinedby my colleagues, Ashley Jones,
Blake Hall, and Joe Shindelar.
This is episode number four,which will be a book chat about
Beloved Economies (00:23):
Transforming How We Work by Jess Rimington
and Joanna Levitt Cea.
"A beloved economy comes fromtreating with care and reverence
the autonomous power ofeveryone's story.
And from each of us being ableto contribute to, and access,
abundance." The core concept inthe book to achieve this is to
(00:44):
distribute rights to design.
Rights to design are what weexercise when we imagine, decide
and build together.
Our current system has theserights to design held by a few,
which consolidates wealth andpower in a reinforcing pattern
that keeps this wealth and powerwithin a small group.
To distribute rights to designand build a beloved economy they
(01:05):
share seven practices.
Share decision making power.
Prioritize relationships.
Reckon with history.
Seek difference.
Source from multiple ways ofknowledge.
Trust there is time.
Prototype early and often.
In this episode, our team talksabout our takeaways and
recommendations as well as whatchanges we should be making on
(01:28):
our team.
So my first question is, dideverybody actually finish the
book?
Joe (01:35):
I finished the book though.
I also.
There were a couple sectionsthat I skimmed through pretty
quick.
There's, it's, the book is kindof divided up where there will
be a chapter that is sort ofthe, you know, key takeaway, one
of the key takeaways.
And then there will be a chapterthat is kind of the like, and
here's the anecdote thatexplains to you how we know that
(01:58):
this is the key takeaway.
And I, I read all of theanecdotes, but some of'em I read
through, I skimmed throughpretty quick.
Addi (02:05):
Same.
Blake (02:07):
I totally skipped the acknowledgements and the end
notes.
Addi (02:11):
Yes.
Ashley (02:12):
Yeah.
Addi (02:13):
Yeah.
I did not go through all of theappendices that they had,
through some of it, but I, Idefinitely was like, Hmm, I
don't need all of the backgrounddetails.
Ashley (02:26):
Right.
Addi (02:27):
Yeah.
So overall impressions.
What is your overall impressionof the book and would you
recommend it for others to reador not?
Blake (02:41):
I think for me, the existence of all of the
appendices kind of providesevidence for my overall
impression, which was that it'svery thoroughly researched and
it felt very academic at times.
I think when you're talkingabout this sort of stuff,
precise vocabulary is important,so I don't wanna discount that,
but were parts that felt jargonyand academic and sort of were a
(03:06):
little bit of word salad.
That could just be my ignorancein sort of the, the field, or it
could just be the way the bookwas written.
But my impression was that itwas a very seriously and well
thought through researched pieceof work for better and worse.
Joe (03:26):
I would say Blake, that really kind of.
Is a great way of summarizinghow I was feeling about it and I
wasn't quite sure what to sayand that sort of like, it reads
more like an academic paper thana novel.
And at points I especiallybecause there are a bunch of
these anecdotal stories in therethat do read a bit more like a
(03:48):
novel where they're, you know,it's like telling a story and
less academic.
And then there are the partsthat are very like, We need to
stick to the words that we'veestablished, cite our
quotations, all of that andthose parts were a little harder
for me to read because I wouldjust kind of like start to glaze
(04:10):
over a little, but.
That said, I appreciate theeffort that was put into doing
things like, you know, at theoutset of the book, they put a
bunch of energy intoestablishing some common
vocabulary.
Like we're going to use thewords business as usual and
beloved economies.
And there was a couple otherones, breakout actors.
(04:32):
And this is what we mean when wesay those words.
Which I guess is good cuz thenit goes on to say those words a
lot through the rest of thebook.
Ashley (04:43):
You know, I've been sitting here like thinking about
would I recommend this book?
I feel like that was like thequestion, and I feel like.
For me personally, kind of likeJoe and Blake both said that the
academic jargon did kind ofglaze me over a bit and I do
(05:06):
much better with, the anecdotal,the, the, the parts that, um
directly reflect real life andthey're giving real life
examples.
Like, I can get into that.
I can, I can envision myselfthere, I can see it, but when it
gets really wordy, I, I do get alittle sleepy.
(05:28):
And that's not to take away fromthe book, I thought, you know,
it gave great insights into likewhat work could be.
And I love the idea of thebeloved economy.
But if I would, if I have todecide whether I would recommend
it or not, I think I kind of sitdead center like 50 50.
It kind of just depends on whatyou enjoy.
(05:48):
I think if you're somebody morelike me, I would, I would
probably say no.
Joe (05:56):
I wonder if, so all of the book has seven key takeaways
from that they want you to learnor like the business practices
that they want you to thinkabout and try.
And for me, none of them werenew.
Like they, maybe they describedit in ways that I hadn't heard
before, but they were allapproaches that I am conscious
(06:19):
of already.
I think things that we largelydo at work already, and in some
ways because of that, I wonderif that made it sort of a little
like, yeah, yeah.
Ashley (06:32):
agreed.
Joe (06:33):
I, I know what you're trying to say here.
Fewer words is, would be fine,but maybe because I'm.
You know, maybe I'm not exactlythe target audience because
these concepts aren't new to meand they are things that we are
already largely putting intopractice.
Addi (06:49):
Like, we're already on board with this, this concept
and these practices.
So it's sort of, yeah, I, Iagree.
Like I, I mean, I wouldrecommend the book, but I
wouldn't recommend the book toeverybody.
I.
Ashley (07:04):
Right.
Addi (07:05):
You know, it would really depend on who I was talking to
and what I thought they mightget out of the book.
And so it would really, for me,it's like a case by case basis
thing.
But I do think there, there is alot of really good, rich
information in there.
And I think in particular, whenI think about who I would like
(07:25):
to read the book, you know, orit would be, you know, people
who, haven't stopped to thinkabout why we work the way we do.
Cuz it kind of, it sets a sortof a case for this is why we
think work doesn't work.
This is all the stuff that'sactually going on underneath
(07:47):
everything.
And then these are the ways wesee that changing.
And I think ex exposing someoneto these ideas and getting
people to think about it, thatwould be great.
And I would love for people toread that and take that away
from it if nothing else.
Joe (08:03):
Yeah, I totally agree with that.
I feel like for myself, thestrongest part of the book was
the beginning where they, theytalk a lot about just kind of
you know, define, define work.
How is it that we ended up withthis definition of this is how
workplaces should operate.
(08:24):
Why do we think that we can'tchange the way that they
operate?
And these were all questionsthat I definitely found myself
being like, oh yeah.
I, I totally fall into thingsfrom time to time where it's
like the quote unquote businessas usual, and I'm just doing it
this way because like, well,that's the way you're supposed
to do it.
(08:44):
And I like that This book reallymade me go, why?
Why do I think that this is theway that I'm supposed to do it?
Who said that this is the waythat I'm supposed to do it, and
why can't I do it a differentway?
Uh, and, and that, that part forsure, and I would recommend this
book to people, especially basedon that, just to get you
thinking about it's okay tothink about business outside of
(09:06):
the box.
And one way to do that is tounder help to sort of do the
internal work of understandingwhy do I think that this is the
way that a business should berun and I dunno, a little bit of
like, you have to know the rulesbefore you can break the rules.
Addi (09:22):
Yeah.
Or I think of it as like youhave to see the cage you're in
in order to break out of it.
Joe (09:27):
Yeah.
Addi (09:28):
You know, like,
Blake (09:29):
And then, coupled with the beginning of that, like the
last chapter for me was alsoreally eyeopening where they
talked about some of thecollaboration they're doing with
people who look at biomimicryand study like natural systems
and natural processes and youknow, spoiler alert, but they're
presented with a paper wherebasically they independently.
(09:50):
Came up across a collection ofvery similar principles and it's
like, yeah, it turns out naturalselection and you know, the sort
of real world has been doingthings following similar
guidelines for hundreds ofthousands of years probably, cuz
it's a good way for organisms tosurvive and adapt.
(10:11):
So
Addi (10:13):
Yeah.
Blake (10:13):
it's almost like as humans, you know, like we're
looking to, to the wrong.
Models or guidelines on how tobe happy and successful and you
know, whatever that means andall of that.
I thought the way they sort oftied that together at the end
was really good.
Addi (10:30):
Yeah, and just again, the idea that we are living by a set
of guidelines, it's just thatmost of us aren't aware of them.
We just assume that that is thenatural order because we've
been.
Conditioned to, to believe that.
so I like, I like that aspectand like for me, I think in
terms of takeaway from the book,like I think it is a good book
(10:52):
and I did get a lot out of it.
And I think, so I think likethat aspect of it, of just sort
of really making you question.
Why do you believe this is theway it should be?
But honestly, sort of back towhat Joe was saying is like,
these are things that I, I'vealready bought into.
This is already something Ibelieve in and and want to
(11:13):
manifest.
And so in a lot of ways, justreading this book was oh yeah,
I'm not alone.
There are a lot of other peopleout there who are thinking these
things and working on them andactually like implementing and
figuring it out.
and that's really heartening andhopeful.
So there was a lot of hope thatI took away from this book is
(11:34):
yes, okay.
I'm not crazy.
This is real and we can dosomething about it.
And it was just like, oh gosh,that's, that's nice.
That feels good.
Joe (11:43):
I totally had moments where the book is like, you know,
they're telling a story andsomeone like, and then this part
was really hard.
And I'm like, yeah, it is.
I feel the same way.
And, and then you might start todoubt yourself and wonder if
this is even possible.
And I'm like, yeah, I definitelyfeel that doubt sometimes.
(12:05):
It was, yeah, it resonated withme in that way.
And other people are alsodealing with the same things.
You're not alone.
Other people are also, you know,working on figuring out ways to
do things different and practicethis stuff and let's.
Blake (12:22):
Well, and another aspect of that, like you, you've
mentioned that you know, as acompany it feels, it does feel
very much like we've bought intothese things and we're doing
fairly well with most of them,but we're also five people.
So there's that classic case oflike, you go to read a business
book and there are all thesecase studies.
And it's like, well, when you'rerunning a meeting of 300 people,
(12:45):
this is how you can go aboutbuilding consensus in an
innovative way.
And I just find myself kind oflaughing and being like, I don't
even know how I'd go about that.
We have five people and it's wayeasier because you can literally
just hear from everybody and,and go around a circle.
So there's some of that I wasreally impressed with, with a
bunch of the stories because itfeels like they're doing things.
(13:08):
At scale that I didn'tnecessarily know would be
successful.
So I thought that wasinteresting because a lot of
times when, at least for me,when I talk about, you know, our
company or, or my work withother people who ha who probably
haven't bought into this kind ofthing, they're always like, oh,
well that wouldn't work in a, abig company.
(13:28):
And I'm like, well, I don't knowif it would either, but you
should try.
And hear a whole bunch ofstories of people seeing success
with that, which I thought waswas great to see.
Addi (13:39):
Any other big takeaways or impressions?
Ashley (13:45):
I guess I, oh, go ahead, Joe.
Joe (13:47):
ahead, Ashley.
Addi (13:48):
Um,
Ashley (13:49):
Oh.
I was just gonna say that I feelyou know, though me included,
didn't have a lot of context asto why work wasn't working, from
a.
You know, this academic researchperspective, I knew why it
didn't work for me in the past,you know what I mean?
(14:10):
And I think, I think a lot ofpeople feel that way.
I mean, most people that I knowand talk to feel that way about
work, you know what I mean?
Like they feel like a slave totheir job.
So then to read in the bookthat, you know, a lot of the
ways that work works, arederived from plantations is
(14:30):
like,
Addi (14:31):
Yeah,
Ashley (14:32):
like, no wonder everybody feels like a slave to
their job.
It's like, because you are, youliterally are, you know?
So I, I liked being able to havecontext to my feelings because
it, it wasn't like a lot ofpeople said, it wasn't novel
things.
It wasn't brand new to know thatpeople are burned out or
(14:53):
stressed or, you know what Imean?
But it is, it was helpful to Beable to put some, some factual
context behind it.
Like, you know, here are thestatistics, this is where these
practices came from and this iswhy you feel this way.
It's like, huh.
Got it.
Makes a lot more sense now.
Addi (15:12):
Totally.
Ashley (15:13):
Yeah.
Joe (15:14):
Do you feel like it and it like, did it prompt you to think
about those things then too?
Ashley (15:23):
Yeah, definitely.
Like.
It, it made me think about why Ihad felt that way, for sure.
and I think because I don't feelthat way at all anymore, it was
kind of just like, huh, a lot ofpeople are still really going
through this, you know?
Joe (15:42):
I wonder if, kind of back to the question of would you
recommend this book or who wouldyou recommend it to?
You know, there's.
This leads me to that kind oflike, well, maybe for people who
are, are feeling like I'm notenjoying work.
I feel like a slave to my job.
This book has a lot of, it cangive you a lot of words to use
to talk about the way thatyou're feeling and also help
(16:04):
better understand why it is thatyou feel that way.
Ashley (16:08):
For sure, especially when it's painted like it's
supposed.
To be the norm and this is justwhat we do and to like feel
outside of that can, can beuncomfortable.
So to, to give it some contextand some some reason I think
could be really helpful.
For sure.
Addi (16:28):
something else that I took from where I appreciated, I
guess, in this book where Idon't know.
So one of the, there's some likesort of caveats I feel like, in
that they have a whole chapteron resistance.
Even though most people arebeing oppressed by this system,
because the system is designedto put power and wealth into the
(16:48):
hands of the few A as a whole,we still resist this kind of
change.
And so, and I thought that wasvery important to have in the
book because it's an oftenoverlooked thing when it comes
to any kind of change is yes,this sounds great and it's
wonderful, but it's not an easyroad to change the way that
(17:09):
people think when they've been.
Brought up that way their wholelives.
and then another sort of I guesscaveat, I'm not sure like where
this falls, but one of thethings I thought was interesting
is there's a thread through thewhole book and then you talk
about a little bit at the end interms of implementation is in
inner work.
A lot of this stuff requiresinner work.
(17:30):
And so if you don't have a groupof people who are willing or
able to do that inner work,you're not gonna get very far
with it.
And I feel like that sort ofbrought up in there, but not, I
feel like that that can be inthese organizations they're
talking about and like say inour company, I feel like that
(17:51):
that is not a barrier that wehave because people are
self-reflective and willing toinquire themselves.
But there are lots and lots andlots of groups where people
aren't there.
So even if they're feeling thepain of work not working and
they can see this picture of,that would be awesome.
(18:12):
They may not be in a place wherethey're willing or able to do
the inner work to get there withother people.
And I feel like that's a.
I don't, it's just like athought that was sort of
bouncing around in my head as Ifinished reading the book is
that's also a barrier and a, akind of a resistance that is
hard to deal with, I think.
(18:34):
I mean, it's not one that I'vehad to deal with in the, in the
context of, of here, but anyway,it was just one of those yeah,
this is great, but youdefinitely need people who are
willing to actually.
Do that inner work and take somepersonal risks in that way, and
not everybody is.
Joe (18:55):
I think for me, one of the takeaways related to that too
was doing that inner work andputting any of these seven
principles into practice isongoing work.
It's not a thing that you canjust do once and then be like,
cool, did it, we're awesome now.
And you, there's alwaysopportunity to keep doing the
(19:19):
things and.
While like, yeah, our currentworkplace is a safe place to do
that kind of inner work.
And I think all of us here arepeople who are willing to do it.
There's still an opportunity tolike be prompted to do it, be
reminded to do it, to makespace, to do it, and a little
(19:39):
bit of like, you know, it is.
You can be willing to do thework, but you also have to have
the space to do it.
And sometimes you have to havesomeone tell you like, Hey, uh,
at this team retreat that we'reon, the thing that you're gonna
do now is go sit by yourself forhalf an hour and ponder this
(19:59):
question.
and you might, you know, for meit's like I might have some
initial resistance, like, Ugh,that seems lame, and then I'll
do it.
And I'm like, oh, I'm reallyglad that someone forced me to
sit down and think about this.
Addi (20:10):
Mm-hmm.
Joe (20:12):
And, and I saw that as being true with all of these
seven principles that they had,where it was like, I think we
practice all of these things,but in each of them, I felt like
there was also opportunity forus to remember to be diligent
about doing it.
you know, one of'em was, uh,like fostering relationships.
(20:32):
And I, I feel like as a team, wedo a, a.
Really good job of communicatingwith one another and developing
relationships and being open,but it's also, especially with a
small team of five, it's easy tosort of take for granted.
Like, oh, we all get along andeveryone's.
Everything is fine.
And you know, one of theirexamples was start your meetings
(20:54):
with a prompt that asks people,you know, more or less like, how
was your weekend?
and develop relationships inthat way.
And it just made me think about,it's like, yeah, I have a good
relationship with all of mycoworkers, but like
relationships with anyone.
You have to continue to work onthose relationships.
And just showing up for meetingsand talking about what tickets
you're working on in GitHubisn't really developing the
(21:15):
relationship in the same waythat.
Making space, intentional spaceto have conversations about like
how's the rest of your life?
Yeah.
Addi (21:25):
Yeah.
And so, I mean for the, the lastquestion I had on my list was
how do you think we're doing onthese practices?
And is there any one thing thatstands out?
Because yes, we can always beimproving.
And I think, I feel like yes,we.
Definitely address thesepractices in how we do our work.
There's plenty of room forimprovement in all of them, but
(21:47):
is there anything in particularthat you walked away from and
was like, huh, you know, maybewe should X, or you know, we
could take a look at Y orsomething like that.
Did anything like that stand outto you all in terms of our
company and how we interact?
Blake (22:04):
I think for me, I thought Joe was talking about the
prioritizing relationships, uh,practice and I, I think
internally we do a really goodjob of that, but I think
historically we've struggledtrying to engage a little bit
more with our members and ourcustomers that way.
I think we do a great job of itwhen they come to us for
support, but it's, it's kind ofalways a challenge to figure out
(22:28):
how to do that in a moreintentional way, externally.
so that's a place where I thinkwe're all aware of that and I
think we all want to improvethere.
We just sort of don't know how.
So for me, that's the biggestone that I think we probably
need to work on.
Ashley (22:44):
I think I would agree with Blake in terms of the
relationship, aspect, and Iagree with the external piece.
And it kind of, you know, ledinto my customer success
project.
Cause you know, I do think wecould strengthen those
relationships for sure.
but I think, and it might bebecause I am the last person to
(23:11):
have joined the team, you know,I feel like I could do better
internally also because I feellike, you know, you guys have
much.
Stronger, personalrelationships, with each other,
you know?
And I know that's cause you guyshave known each other longer,
you've worked with each otherlonger.
but I think it stood out to mebecause we talk about our
(23:32):
weekends, like on our fivefifteens and you know, little
personal tidbits here and there.
But I think for me it made itlike, you know, you could, you
could put more of an effort inthat area, you know?
Yeah.
Joe (23:49):
I, so Ashley, you mentioned the five fifteens, and so
internally we do this thingwhere once a week we more or
less You know, fill out a surveywhere that has a handful of
questions that asks how yourweek was, and then everyone else
on the team gets to see what yousaid.
And so, you know, we'redeveloping relationships with
one another through seeing whatpeople are working on and what
(24:10):
they're excited about and whatthey're struggling with.
I, after reading this book, whenI thought about our five
fifteens, and one of the thingsthat I think we could
potentially do to improve themwould be to, Change the
questions from time to time orlike have a one question that is
unique each week because it,after having done this for a
(24:31):
while, the questions become, andmy answers to the questions
become a little bit rote andthey become very work focused.
and it seemed like there wouldmaybe an opportunity to, you
know, maybe it's not the.
Prompt at the beginning of ameeting that's like, all right,
everybody needs to tell everyonehow their weekend was.
But if we added it to thatweekly survey, but have it be a
(24:53):
different question each week,how, you know, how was your
weekend?
But also what's your favoritesong?
Why do you think peanut butteris the best flavor of ice cream?
Um, things
Addi (25:04):
Okay, for for listeners, this is a longstanding battle
within the company between Joeand Ashley about ice cream.
So I'm just, this is why we'relaughing about that.
Ashley (25:16):
Peanut butter is certainly not.
Joe (25:19):
But, but, and we you know, interestingly and related, this
is an ongoing debate betweenAshley and I that is, Part of
the definition of ourrelationship that started
because at some point we were ina place where we got to have
that conversation about like,what's your favorite flavor of
ice cream?
And I just feel like, you know,there we could take advantage of
(25:42):
some of the things we're alreadydoing, like this weekly five 15
survey to ask more of thosetypes of questions and just
deepen those relationships andkeep putting in that work that's
required to make them stronger.
Addi (25:59):
I think for me, one of the things that kept sitting with me
was sort of back to Blake'sthing with the external
relationships with ourcustomers, and specifically in
the context of one of the thingsthey talk about a lot in the
book, which is rights to designand having everybody at the
(26:22):
table so that it's not like, Youknow, the hands of the few are
then distributing, you know, orcontrolling or deciding.
And I feel like, you know, inthe work that we do, our
customers are part of thisexperience, right?
And they don't sit at the table.
(26:43):
Sometimes we ask them questionsand, and we definitely are open
to feedback.
But as it goes into, you know,in that chapter in the book,
like that's not.
That's not actually gettingpeople to the table and, and
making it accessible and makingit something that they're going
to engage in.
And so I feel like that's a, anarea that we could really see
how that could really change ourbusiness and our product and,
(27:06):
and just sort of everything wedo.
If we could think about a way toreally, really have our
customers be an equal at thetable instead of, and like I, I
have this quote from, Towardsthe end of the book, that really
struck me with that, which wasLoveless ways of work are often
about speaking for, creating,for marketing toward, or
(27:26):
managing on behalf of all ofwhich, in practice, uphold a
conceptual notion that there isa homogenous other, our
customers, a subject apart fromthe person doing the action,
whose unchosen role is toreceive it.
And so it's like, I was like,Hmm, yeah, what would that look
like?
If we actually had customerspart of our creation process,
(27:51):
instead of just giving usfeedback after the fact or, you
know, o occasionally doing asurvey and hoping that people
wanna answer our questions.
So anyway, that's one that I washas been sort of kicking around
on my head since reading thisbook.
That could be a really weird andwild change.
I don't know what that lookslike.
I don't know how we would do it,but it's just something that's
(28:13):
kicking around for
Joe (28:14):
I went through the thought process while reading the book
of You know, si Similarly, kindof like, I feel like we do these
things really well internally.
We develop relationships, weshare prototypes.
We, you know, share knowledgeand learn from one another, but
we don't do as good of a job aswe could of having that same
kind of relationship with quoteunquote our stakeholders, like
(28:37):
the people that we're actuallybuilding this thing for.
cuz it turns out we're we'rebuilding the Drupalize.Me
website for the members of thesite, not for one another.
And so in that I was like, huh,we should what?
Maybe we should have, what wouldit look like if there were like
people who are members ofDrupalize.Me, also on say the
(28:58):
board of directors forDrupalize.Me.
And I was like, well, that'snot.
That's not how business works.
You can't do
Addi (29:05):
Not business as usual,
Joe (29:07):
That's the whole point is I need to think about, huh?
Is that possible?
Addi (29:12):
Mm-hmm.
Joe (29:13):
What would that kind of thing look like?
And I had a few moments readingthe book where I totally was
like, well, you're not supposedto do, no, I am supposed to
challenge that assumption.
Addi (29:25):
It's like, it's like whenever you have that thought,
that's immediately like a star.
That's like, aha, you're ontosomething here and you need to
lean into that instead ofbacking away.
Yeah.
Joe (29:37):
But it made me think about the prototyping, sharing
prototypes, get, gettingfeedback from your stakeholders
chapter definitely made me thinkabout similarly, Addi, we could
do a better job of that.
I don't know what that lookslike yet.
But you know, we do a lot ofwork internally when we're, for
(29:58):
example, developing the outlinefor a set of tutorials that
we're going to create.
And then we all internally lookat it and we go, yeah, that'd be
great.
I assume everybody's gonna wannalearn this.
and then we create it.
And I think there's anopportunity there for us to
Addi (30:13):
Mm-hmm.
Joe (30:15):
bring more people to the table, bring more stakeholders
to the table.
Addi (30:19):
Yeah, well we can continue this conversation on our team
calls.
we should probably wrap up thepodcast for now.
Look at that half an houralready went by.
Ashley (30:32):
That was
Addi (30:32):
fast.
yeah.
Yeah, it's cool to talk aboutthis stuff.
So yeah, thanks for reading thebook, taking the time.
Wading through the words and,and then coming to talk about
it.
I do think this is a reallythought provoking book and I'm
glad that we read it as a teamand we can have some, some
(30:53):
further conversations, on ourteam calls.
I think in the coming months,for sure.
Hey, so thanks for listening andlet us know if you have
questions, comments, orsuggestions for what you'd like
to hear more about.
You can find all of the variousways to reach us on our
website@osiolabs.com.
That's O S I O L A B S.com.
(31:19):
Also, please make sure tosubscribe to the podcast on your
podcast provider of choice.
We'll catch you on the nextepisode.
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