November 21, 2023 • 32 mins
This episode is taking a look at another Brené Brown book, Dare to Lead. From previous discussions about leadership on the team and some folks being exposed to other Brené books, everyone on the team wanted to read this one and be in on the podcast. We have the whole team on the podcast for the first time!
This book takes Brene’s work about shame, vulnerability, and bravery and focuses it on applying the lessons specifically towards leadership, and in particular in the classic sense of leadership at work. She summarizes research and takeaways from her other books and presents four Skill Sets of Daring Leadership:
- Rumbling with Vulnerability
- Living into Our Values
- Braving Trust
- Learning to Rise
Stick with us as our team shares their thoughts and takeaways from the book.
You can get in touch with us to ask questions, leave comments, or provide suggestions on our website, https://osiolabs.com/.
Osio Labs is tinkering with Open Source Inside and Out. We’re on a mission to empower anyone to build websites using open source tools, and to create an open and sustainable business.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Addi (00:00):
Hey everybody.
This is Addison Berry, andyou're listening to the Osio
Labs podcast.
The show that explores thequestion,"how can we create
sustainable businesses that carefor people and make the world a
better place?" On today'sepisode, I'm joined by the
entire Osio Labs team (00:13):
Amber Matz, Ashley Jones, Blake Hall,
and Joe Shindelar.
This is episode number nine.
A book chat about Dare to Leadby Brené Brown.
This book takes Brené's, workabout shame, vulnerability and
bravery.
And focuses it on applying thelesson specifically towards
(00:35):
leadership and in particular, inthe classic sense of leadership
at work.
She summarizes research andtakeaways from her other books
and presents for skillsets ofdaring leadership as she calls
them.
Which are.
Rumbling with vulnerability.
Living into our values.
Braving trust.
And learning to rise.
(00:57):
So stick with us as our teamshares their thoughts and
takeaways from the book.
This is exciting to have theentire team on a podcast and I
think it's interesting that it'sthis book that sort of brought
everybody onto a podcasttogether.
So, we can just start off with,what's your overall impression,
would you recommend this book ornot?
(01:19):
Does anybody want to kick us offwith that question?
Blake (01:23):
I would definitely recommend this book.
Two thumbs up.
I think I was probably about 50pages into it and I was like,
yeah, we need to do this podcastnow.
I can't wait for this one.
I thought it was really, reallygood.
Joe (01:39):
I felt similar, like 50 pages in and I'm nodding along
the whole time.
And at a certain point, I waslike, I have to stop reading
this book, or I'm going to havetoo many ideas of things that I
need to try to work on orimplement.
And I can't do that.
I, I also just, as an aside, Iread the hardcover copy of the
(02:02):
book because Sarah had a copy ofit.
And this is the first time I'veread a hardcover book in a
really long time.
I usually read on my Kindle andthe feature that I really missed
about the Kindle when preparingfor reading a book for a podcast
was, normally I highlighteverything in the Kindle and
then I can go look it up onlineand I can't do that now,
Addi (02:21):
Hmm.
Joe (02:23):
but yes, I would recommend the book.
It was a good read.
Ashley (02:25):
I would also echo that I really enjoyed the book also.
And I think I'm just learningthat I enjoy Brene Brown.
Like I, I like the way that shetalks about things.
I like that it's very likeanecdotal and it doesn't feel
like preachy.
But I also feel like I'mlearning a lot, like about
(02:45):
myself from this person, whichis really interesting.
But yes, two thumbs up.
I really enjoyed it.
Also.
Amber (02:54):
I quote unquote, read this book as an audio book
driving to our retreat.
And so I was a bit steamrolledbecause like, it just keeps
going.
Like the audio book just keepsgoing.
And there's so many hard hittingthings like things that you
learn about yourself in theprocess.
So my impression was.
(03:16):
It was a little bit difficult toget through sometimes, but it
was ultimately really good.
It was relatable.
The problems that she describesare really clearly defined.
The solutions and tools andprocesses that she provides are
really, I think they have a lotof potential to be helpful to
people who Um, and it'sbasically a book about how
(03:36):
people are human beings who havetough conversations in whatever
context.
And I would recommend, and Ihave recommended this book to
anyone who's, who cares aboutpeople, who's interested in
kicking ass at being human.
Whether you think you're aleader or not, which definitely
defines myself.
So, yeah.
(03:56):
Two thumbs up.
Addi (03:59):
Yes.
I recommended this book becauseI also love Brené Brown.
Just she knows how to hit youright where it counts and give
you actionable things so thatyou can actually be like, oh,
this is a thing I should beaware of.
And, is there something I can doabout that?
Wow.
So, given that we all love it,what was y'all's biggest
(04:21):
takeaway?
If you have the one thing you'retaking away from this book, or,
I mean, if you can reduce it toone.
I don't know.
Blake (04:28):
I found myself taking, Oh, sorry, Joe.
I was taking a bunch of notes inmy bullet journal as I was
reading this.
And it was just sort of like, Ifelt like I was doing it with
the inspirational quote thing onthe wall.
Like I was back in elementaryschool or something, but the one
I wrote down that I keepreferring to over and over again
is asking for help is a powermove, and I feel like that is
(04:53):
something I'm definitely notgood at, and I would like to get
better at, but also I think it'sa really healthy way to frame
teamwork, and collaboration, isa big part of leadership, I
think, and reframing somethinglike that that can come with a
lot of sort of shame and anxietyand self doubt, Thank you.
(05:16):
As like, no, this is just whatneeds to happen to, you know,
make someone else feel goodabout their skills because they
can help me out just the way shetalks about that in the book, I
thought was, was really greatand really powerful and
something I need to remindmyself of,
Joe (05:32):
I really like the concept of, I think she calls it showing
up in the arena or man in thearena.
There's a quote that goes withthis, but you know, I didn't
read it in my Kindle, so I don'thave it highlighted and I can't
remember.
But, um, the concept of like,give more credit and more voice
to the persons who are showingup and doing the work.
(05:54):
And that was something thatreally stood out for me.
And I think in part as areminder that if you want to
have your voice heard as aleader in, in any sphere, it's
important to also be doing thework that you're asking other
people to do.
Yeah, that, that really struckme.
(06:14):
I kind of related it to we ran aworkshop recently and there was
some parts about it that werestressing me out and just like,
I really don't want to do this.
What if I get it wrong?
What if I don't facilitate theworkshop?
Well, and in the end, it wasjust a reminder of like, you
know, showing up and doingsomething is better than being
over here on the side andstressing about it for so long
(06:36):
and just doing nothing.
And even if it ends up not beinggreat, at least it's better than
it would have been if somebodyjust sat by and like, you know,
backseat drives this thing.
Ashley (06:47):
I think for me, one of the, one of my big takeaways and
I, and I feel like this happensa lot with her books in
particular, because it's notnecessarily something I didn't
know, but having it like spelledout in.
Said back to me for some reasonmade it like it just hit a
(07:09):
little different.
But just like the vulnerabilityaspect of leadership and like it
being okay to not know.
The things and it being okay tovocalize that like, don't know
the next step, but we're gonnafigure it out together.
I think I often feel like Ioften feel a lot of trepidation
(07:33):
in leadership roles because Idon't know it all and.
In my mind, it's like, well,you're leading.
You have to know the things ifyou're gonna do it.
But I feel like it's reallysimilar to what Blake and Joe
are saying.
It's okay to say that you don'tknow.
It's okay to collaborate in aleadership role.
(07:54):
And like, being there andshowing up with that
vulnerability, like, goes somuch farther than pretending
like you know it all when youjust actually don't.
Joe (08:04):
I kind of leaning into that a little bit.
Like she also kind of gets intothe ideas around like the
learning that happens when yourecover from your failures and
like show up and be vulnerableand make a mistake.
aNd that's okay.
Cause that is okay.
(08:24):
As long as you then learn fromthe mistake and improve
Addi (08:29):
Mm hmm.
Joe (08:29):
the next time.
And again, for me, that goesback to that whole, like, Ah,
what if I get it wrong?
And it's like, well, at leastit's an opportunity to get it
wrong and have tried somethingand decide that now that's not
going to work.
How should I do this better nexttime?
Addi (08:46):
Yeah.
And I will point out, the vastmajority of the book is about
vulnerability.
Like she's, it's got fourskillsets, but a lot of the
focus of the book is on thefoundational skillset of
vulnerability, um, that shestarts off with.
I mean, it's the foundation ofwhat she's trying to teach us in
(09:07):
this book, for sure.
Amber (09:09):
I liked the...
I don't know if I liked it, butit was helpful to, to learn to
contrast armoring yourself,versus courage to enter into a,
a tough conversation.
And she really convinced me thatif Like, I can equip myself for
(09:33):
a tough conversation, and sheprovides a lot of tools for
that.
And that's different than kindof doing self protection, in an
unhealthy way.
And she really clarifies thatfor me.
And vulnerability is superscary.
(09:54):
And has gone really, reallywrong many, many times and it's,
you know, there's a lot of,there can be a lot of pain and
hurt and just, well, feelingvulnerable associated with
vulnerability, right?
So I think she makes a good casefor courage and, but she doesn't
(10:14):
just send you in blind, youknow?
She really provides, like,alternatives to self protective
armor, as she puts it.
And, and how you can, you canprepare and you can use tools
and, and you can communicate.
Better and, and truthfully andit can end up with you feeling
(10:37):
more connected to that personand, and you end up with a more
meaningful outcome.
Even though it was difficult togo through, you end up with more
meaning.
And I think that that is going,I'm hoping, I am hopeful that
that will lead to a lot morehappiness instead of the
unhappiness that can come fromjust repeated tough
(10:58):
conversations gone wrong.
So.
Addi (11:02):
Yeah.
I took a lot of things away.
I think one of the things thatlike, I don't know if she
explicitly states it in a quoteanywhere or anything, but one of
the things I really take awayfrom this is that, and she does
sort of talk about it like alittle bit more some of this at
the end in terms of talkingabout quoting someone about
(11:25):
being a leader and being able tohold opposites.
And that, you know, like there'sjust, there's so much stuff
going on and there's like allthis excitement and there's all
this fear and all of thesethings that are trying to
balance out and, you know,taking care of what you have,
but also growing into somethingnew.
And that there are all theseopposites and I feel like, you
know, beyond that, just fromlike a business perspective or
(11:47):
something, but like just like inlife, being aware of the, the
oxymorons of life and that.
And that is what life is andbeing open to holding that and
being present for it is so keyto being able to really see, to
(12:09):
really understand things thatare happening for like me
personally in my life, what'shappening at work, what's
happening, you know, in, in thiscommunity or that community, to
not lock myself up and like, youknow, armor myself in this
certainty Of a, of one side ofsomething, or, you know, one
aspect, because there's sort ofalways two sides to the coin.
(12:31):
And so that was just sort oflike a general reminder, and
it's, and it's hard to sit withthough, it's really
uncomfortable to sit with twoopposites when you just want the
certainty of one, you know, andthat, and that's, that's the
task, that's the job.
That's the work that sort ofunderlies a lot of the stuff
(12:52):
that I felt like she was talkingabout.
So that was just sort of whatwas pinging around in my brain
for a while afterwards.
Does anybody have any drawbacksor warnings or stuff that you
didn't like or didn't understandeven?
Blake (13:09):
I've got one.
Like a couple other folks havementioned, there's a whole bunch
of really good, like actionableexercises and tools throughout
the entire book.
She makes it seem too damn easy.
Like, this is reallycomplicated, frustrating, hard
stuff, and, all of the storiesin the book are just tackled
(13:29):
like, well, this is a piece ofcake.
You just do X, Y, and Z.
And I don't think that survivesevery business culture,
certainly.
I think, It works well when youhave people on board and bought
into this sort of world view andthis sort of model.
But, I know in speaking withsome other folks in my life
(13:50):
that, leadership doesn't workthis way in a lot of places and
a lot of different facets oflife.
And for me, at least, and frommy view, this is totally the
right way to go about trying tobe a leader, but, actually
implementing it, I feel like isreally, really hard and probably
not as.
as painless as it kind of comesacross in the book a little bit.
(14:15):
really think that's a negative.
I mean, I think the hard work issort of the point of the book.
And I think she calls that outquite a bit, but it just, it
seems like as you read the book,this is, of course, the way
things should work.
And like, it's just sort ofobvious in a, in a good way.
Yeah, really hard to implementand really hard to sit with and
(14:36):
get right.
Cause it's, there's sort of noend goal, right?
It's always like a process ofimprovement.
Addi (14:42):
Yeah, it's interesting, we could go off on a whole thing
about like, what is leadershipand who are leaders and that
kind of a thing.
Which I'm not going to gocompletely down that road, but
in terms of like, yeah, this isgreat personal work that I can
do in terms of interacting.
I mean, whether or not you're ina position of authority or not,
these are all things thatmatter, as you said, being
(15:04):
human, like being a human beingand trying to have relationship
with other people.
All this stuff is good and itworks.
And also, what is the, what doesthat look like when you try to
introduce it into a.
Business or an organization, acommunity that is too afraid to
(15:25):
take these chances with you.
And what does, what does thatlook like?
Or how does that play out?
You know, and can you lead byexample, or is it just not work?
And it's not worth the effort.
So I think that's an interestingquestion that she doesn't go
into in the book, which is fairenough because she's going into
a lot of stuff in the book.
but yeah, sort of comes back tothat, like, that would be great
(15:49):
if everybody was on board withthis, but if they're not on
board with it.
Now, what do I do?
How do I
Joe (15:54):
There's like this expectation in the book of like,
well, you as an individual justneed to start doing these things
and tada, you'll be a betterleader.
And while that's true, like itdoesn't.
I wish I got a little bit moreinto addressing like what kind
(16:16):
of structural or systemicbarriers are going to exist
within an organization that'sgoing to stop you from being
able to do that.
And, and how do you do that?
How do you get over that?
Or like, what if I show up oneday and I'm like, I'm going to
be more vulnerable.
And my boss is like, I don'tcare.
I just want outcomes and, like,and your pay is tied to those
(16:36):
outcomes, not yourvulnerability.
I'm like, Oh, I'm sorry.
I'm actually not going to bemore vulnerable.
I take it all back.
And Addi, like you say, it'shard to address everything in a
single book, but if I had acriticism, it would be that I
wish it talked a little bit moreabout how to implement some of
this, like.
(16:57):
System wide and not just as anindividual.
Addi (17:00):
Yeah.
I also feel like there is a lotin the book and she has lots of
tools and even has likeworksheets for you to work
through and stuff, which isgreat.
And I also found myself beinglike, Oh, my gosh, how much time
do I need to actually.
Work through all of these toolsand like implement them, you
(17:20):
know, so yeah, not a criticismbecause I think it's great and I
think it's very much a case ofwhat thing calls to you the most
or what thing resonates with youmost and maybe take that aside
and work on it.
But it was also, it was one ofthose kind of like, oh, there's
so much good stuff and I want todo all of it.
And now I'm overwhelmed, kind offeeling, that came out of it for
(17:41):
sure.
So I kind of want to go back andsort of, think through what does
implementation of this look likefor me, without, you know,
freaking myself out, basically.
And, and of course, like,there's also another
conversation that we can have asa team of, like, what, if any of
(18:02):
this, do we want to implement?
As a team, going forward andthings like that, but definitely
need like time for that, thatthought process and conversation
to happen.
Cause there's, there's just somuch stuff in there for sure.
All right.
So she has four skill sets ofdaring leadership in the book.
(18:22):
That's how the book is.
Presented and you have sections.
The first section, like I said,is is like huge.
It's the majority of the book,which is rumbling with
vulnerability and she put, youknow, she calls out several
times like this is thefoundational thing.
And if you cannot rumble withvulnerability, the other stuff
isn't going to happen or it'snot going to affect in the way
(18:43):
that you want it to.
And then she has living into ourvalues.
Braving trust and learning torise, which is the failure
learning from failure.
And so of these four just skillsets and sort of what she was
talking about.
Did any one or more of them, Iguess, like resonate in
(19:06):
particular for you?
And that can be either for youpersonally or for us as an
organization, like at work and,and something that you'd see,
maybe we should, should beinvestigating and leaning into
more
Amber (19:20):
Well, I don't know exactly, I don't remember
exactly how she puts it, but shesays something along the lines
of how working on yourself,defining yourself is first
before you can really lead, youknow, lead.
And after that huge section,like the long section on
(19:41):
vulnerability, honestly, theliving into your values thing
was I latched right onto thatbecause it was like, it was kind
of a relief.
And after all of this, like hardself introspection on things,
like, you know, anyway, theliving, I, so I really latched
onto the living interior valuesbecause I, we've thought about
(20:02):
that as a team personally.
I have, but I really haven'tdone In my opinion, like enough
work on that, or I've kind ofseen kind of gaps in how I'm
defining my values for myself.
So that's what I, that's whatreally resonated with me.
I feel like that's like a goodstarting point for me to dig
into.
(20:22):
These tools because it's like,it's not an easy win, but it
sort of feels like easier thanall the other things, you know,
it's like, I can at least starthere and, and define my values,
like the one or two values thatare really central And reflect
on that and work on everythingelse seems to like, kind of flow
through that.
And then I can work on theother, other things first.
(20:45):
So I, yeah, I liked the livinginto your value section the
most.
Addi (20:50):
nice.
That totally
Blake (20:52):
I'll kind of take the counter to that where I feel
like.
I think the living in your valuesection is really important, but
I am terrible at going throughthose activities and like
actually picking values.
I'll look at the big checklistand be like, I like these 25 and
I don't care that you told me totake two.
I like 25 deal with it.
(21:13):
So for me, like, that's the onethat definitely if I'm getting
the elementary school reportcard for myself and need
improvement on that one forsure.
But I think the rumbling withvulnerability stood out the most
in part because it's.
More than half the book, butalso I feel like that's the
piece that sort of has to happeninside of an organization,
(21:33):
especially before any of theother stuff kind of can work
like you have to have a, youhave to have a culture where
you're comfortable with takingenough risk to fail before you
can fail successfully, or, youhave to be comfortable being
vulnerable with somebody beforeyou can really trust them, I
(21:54):
think.
So for me, that one is sort ofthe bedrock of everything else.
But I hear what you're saying,Amber, about the living into
your values.
I think that's really important.
I just think that I'm terribleat defining that and probably
it's a sign I need to spend moretime on some of those exercises
and some of that part of thebook.
Amber (22:14):
For what it's worth, I'm also whittling down from 25.
Joe (22:16):
It's kind of like that scenario where everyone always
asks you like, so Joe, what areyour personal goals?
And you're, it's just like, I'mokay with not having any right
now.
Like that's fine.
Thought that from.
The perspective of all of usworking together, that the
(22:36):
rumbling with vulnerability hadthe most takeaways for me,
especially because like, I justkept picturing myself on a zoom
call with all of youimplementing these different
practices.
And I was like, ah, that's whatthis would feel like to do on a
zoom call.
Yeah.
That's what this would feellike.
And maybe my next step there waslike, I feel like.
(22:58):
As a company, we already do areally good job of giving each
other the space and thepermission to be vulnerable.
Like, I don't, I don't see ushaving, for example,
institutional blockers tosomeone being vulnerable.
But I do think there's anopportunity for us to
institutionalize it a bit more.
(23:18):
And in the book, um, she talks alot about, you know, there are
different practices for meetingsand they had specific names for
when you do, you know, arevulnerable in a certain way, or
you call a stop to a meeting orwhatever.
And, you know, it's sort oflike, while We all have
permission to do that.
We don't, it's not necessarily aformal, like this is how you do
(23:42):
it.
And I, I personally, I thinkthat having a formal, this is
how you do it, makes it easierto do it in those moments when
you're feeling really vulnerablebecause you don't have to spend
the sort of capital thinkingabout, you know, the willpower
to figure out how am I going todo this?
(24:03):
You can just spend the willpowerthinking, okay, I'm actually
going to push this button rightnow.
Ashley (24:10):
I would agree that the vulnerability portion, hit home
the most, I think, for a lot ofreasons.
I think because it pertains toso much of my personal life
also, and it really forced me tosee myself and I was just like,
whoo, you know?
(24:32):
You've got, you've got some workto do, around this topic.
And it's also I feel like it'skind of like a theme in her
books.
I've only read two, so I could,like, really be jumping the gun
here.
But it was also part of the lastbook as well that I read.
And I'm just gosh, this thingis, really important, like, in
(24:54):
my life.
And I should probably, spendsome time working on it.
And I feel like I gravitated, Igravitate towards it, because I
think that it is the area whereI need the most, refinement.
Like, it, it requires moreattention for me, like,
(25:14):
thousands.
Addi (25:15):
Yeah.
I, you know, the, yeah, thevulnerability thing of course is
like a huge section.
Of the book and I feel like,sort of like Joe saying, like as
an organization, there'sprobably a lot that we can do
to, I mean, work on all thethings in here, but I think, one
of the things I find importantin other groups that I've been
(25:40):
working with this year iscreating the container and the
expectation for vulnerability.
Completely changes.
So it's not like it's notpossible or not allowed.
But when someone specificallycomes out and builds this room
(26:02):
that says this is this safespace.
This is why it is safe.
This is how it is safe.
This is how we will all agree tobehave in this room.
And this is how you can expressyourself.
Just Yeah, just changeseverything about how you
actually interact.
And so I feel like that'sdefinitely a thing I would like
(26:24):
us to actively work on and, andchange for sure.
As like a, a pretty big firststep, I think, for me.
Personally, I ended up the, thebraving trust was really
interesting because she has thisacronym braving and sort of
these different steps and it'svery much like these are
(26:45):
questions to ask.
And are you actually in thisrelationship right now with this
person?
Are all of these elements.
In play, and I feel like that'sjust something that it's just,
it's a really interesting way tobreak down trust and what trust
is, and actually checking sortof real time is, is this
(27:07):
actually a trusting situation ornot?
And if it's not, why not?
So I kind of want to play withthat a little bit, uh, for sure
on my own.
Joe (27:18):
I like the, the idea of building the container in which
you can be vulnerable or holdingspace for, for people that
express themselves.
And I, to some extent, I thinkthat's kind of like the, that's
how as a business you get tolive into your values.
And, you know, a little bit oflike, it's one thing to say, we
(27:39):
support you in doing this, goahead and do it if you want to.
And another to say, like, here'sthe space to do that.
The time, you know, like And,and you can do it anytime you
want to, but also I set asidetime for you to do it on
Wednesdays at two.
You now have nothing in yourschedule.
Go take care of that.
And that's such a differentapproach to a business living
(28:03):
its values then I think what ismore common, which is like, Hey,
we listed a bunch of things inour handbook that our values.
And we say, you can, you can dothem, but you have to ask, or
you have to like be, you'reresponsible for doing it.
It's such a different thing thansomeone else kind of holding the
space for you to do it.
Addi (28:22):
hmm.
Yep.
Amber (28:25):
Yeah, I think that in our organization, we have a lot of
assumptions around the thingsdiscussed in these books, but to
have some actions and to reallyimplement these things, just
like you said, is, it's going tobe the key for us to really be
authentic in how we live intoour values and how we do all of
(28:46):
these things.
So, yeah, I think we assumeThank you.
That we're doing okay, and Ithink that we probably are, but
there's, there's so much roomfor improvement that we've all,
like, learned this, if I thinkthat there's a lot of room
personally for improvement,that, like, that translates out
to, well, then that affects theteam.
(29:07):
I'm a part of this team.
If I need improvement, then thatmeans the team, and maybe the
team can help me, and that wholeasking for help thing, and,
Providing those rules andbuilding that container.
It also leads to a lot ofcreative solutions.
Because once you have thoseconstraints, and you have these
rules, then, you, there's a lotmore, there's actually a lot
(29:30):
more freedom there.
So, yeah.
I'm excited for the future.
And for, you know, for us tryingout these things and putting
them into practice.
I think it's going to be alittle rough at first.
But, I think, Once we get intothe practice of it, it'll, it'll
be really meaningful work.
Addi (29:49):
Yeah, we have a lot to learn, which would make Brene
very happy.
We're going to make a lot ofmistakes.
Everybody is going to beawesome.
Joe (30:00):
I'm just waiting for the moment when our interactions on
zoom are like the equivalent ofsome of the anecdotes in the
book, where it is like, like thea hundred percent perfect
application of the thing thatI've just told you about.
And you're like that, that's nothow conversations happen in real
life.
I get what you're illustratinghere, but come on,
Addi (30:22):
And then suddenly we'll be like.
Whoa.
Did we just do a Brené?
Amber (30:29):
someone will say, Amber, are you reading out of the book
right now?
Joe (30:32):
right?
Addi (30:36):
Totally.
Well, thanks everybody forreading the book and coming on
to talk about it.
I am excited for conversationsthat we're going to have on our
team calls in the future as wesort out how do we want to
implement them This stuff andand sort of take these lessons
to heart.
Like what does that actuallyreally mean for us?
(30:59):
Day to day going forward likewhat changes do we want to make
and then how are we going toimplement those and I think
that's going to be goodconversations and I look forward
to being uncomfortable with youall
Amber (31:13):
yay?
Addi (31:14):
so anyway, yeah, thanks everybody
Ashley (31:17):
It's like, I think that's good.
Yay.
Addi (31:38):
Hey, so thanks for listening and let us know if you
have questions, comments, orsuggestions for what you'd like
to hear more about.
You can find all of the variousways to reach us on our website
at osiolabs.com.
That's O S I O L A B S.com.
(31:58):
Also, please make sure tosubscribe to the podcast on your
podcast provider of choice.
We'll catch you on the nextepisode.
Hey everybody.
This is Addison Berry, andyou're listening to the Osio
Labs podcast.
The show that explores thequestion,"how can we create
sustainable businesses that carefor people and make the world a
better place?" On today'sepisode, I'm joined by the
entire Osio Labs team (00:13):
Amber Matz, Ashley Jones, Blake Hall,
and Joe Shindelar.
This is episode number nine.
A book chat about Dare to Leadby Brené Brown.
This book takes Brené's, workabout shame, vulnerability and
bravery.
And focuses it on applying thelesson specifically towards
(00:35):
leadership and in particular, inthe classic sense of leadership
at work.
She summarizes research andtakeaways from her other books
and presents for skillsets ofdaring leadership as she calls
them.
Which are.
Rumbling with vulnerability.
Living into our values.
Braving trust.
And learning to rise.
(00:57):
So stick with us as our teamshares their thoughts and
takeaways from the book.
This is exciting to have theentire team on a podcast and I
think it's interesting that it'sthis book that sort of brought
everybody onto a podcasttogether.
So, we can just start off with,what's your overall impression,
would you recommend this book ornot?
(01:19):
Does anybody want to kick us offwith that question?
Blake (01:23):
I would definitely recommend this book.
Two thumbs up.
I think I was probably about 50pages into it and I was like,
yeah, we need to do this podcastnow.
I can't wait for this one.
I thought it was really, reallygood.
Joe (01:39):
I felt similar, like 50 pages in and I'm nodding along
the whole time.
And at a certain point, I waslike, I have to stop reading
this book, or I'm going to havetoo many ideas of things that I
need to try to work on orimplement.
And I can't do that.
I, I also just, as an aside, Iread the hardcover copy of the
(02:02):
book because Sarah had a copy ofit.
And this is the first time I'veread a hardcover book in a
really long time.
I usually read on my Kindle andthe feature that I really missed
about the Kindle when preparingfor reading a book for a podcast
was, normally I highlighteverything in the Kindle and
then I can go look it up onlineand I can't do that now,
Addi (02:21):
Hmm.
Joe (02:23):
but yes, I would recommend the book.
It was a good read.
Ashley (02:25):
I would also echo that I really enjoyed the book also.
And I think I'm just learningthat I enjoy Brene Brown.
Like I, I like the way that shetalks about things.
I like that it's very likeanecdotal and it doesn't feel
like preachy.
But I also feel like I'mlearning a lot, like about
(02:45):
myself from this person, whichis really interesting.
But yes, two thumbs up.
I really enjoyed it.
Also.
Amber (02:54):
I quote unquote, read this book as an audio book
driving to our retreat.
And so I was a bit steamrolledbecause like, it just keeps
going.
Like the audio book just keepsgoing.
And there's so many hard hittingthings like things that you
learn about yourself in theprocess.
So my impression was.
(03:16):
It was a little bit difficult toget through sometimes, but it
was ultimately really good.
It was relatable.
The problems that she describesare really clearly defined.
The solutions and tools andprocesses that she provides are
really, I think they have a lotof potential to be helpful to
people who Um, and it'sbasically a book about how
(03:36):
people are human beings who havetough conversations in whatever
context.
And I would recommend, and Ihave recommended this book to
anyone who's, who cares aboutpeople, who's interested in
kicking ass at being human.
Whether you think you're aleader or not, which definitely
defines myself.
So, yeah.
(03:56):
Two thumbs up.
Addi (03:59):
Yes.
I recommended this book becauseI also love Brené Brown.
Just she knows how to hit youright where it counts and give
you actionable things so thatyou can actually be like, oh,
this is a thing I should beaware of.
And, is there something I can doabout that?
Wow.
So, given that we all love it,what was y'all's biggest
(04:21):
takeaway?
If you have the one thing you'retaking away from this book, or,
I mean, if you can reduce it toone.
I don't know.
Blake (04:28):
I found myself taking, Oh, sorry, Joe.
I was taking a bunch of notes inmy bullet journal as I was
reading this.
And it was just sort of like, Ifelt like I was doing it with
the inspirational quote thing onthe wall.
Like I was back in elementaryschool or something, but the one
I wrote down that I keepreferring to over and over again
is asking for help is a powermove, and I feel like that is
(04:53):
something I'm definitely notgood at, and I would like to get
better at, but also I think it'sa really healthy way to frame
teamwork, and collaboration, isa big part of leadership, I
think, and reframing somethinglike that that can come with a
lot of sort of shame and anxietyand self doubt, Thank you.
(05:16):
As like, no, this is just whatneeds to happen to, you know,
make someone else feel goodabout their skills because they
can help me out just the way shetalks about that in the book, I
thought was, was really greatand really powerful and
something I need to remindmyself of,
Joe (05:32):
I really like the concept of, I think she calls it showing
up in the arena or man in thearena.
There's a quote that goes withthis, but you know, I didn't
read it in my Kindle, so I don'thave it highlighted and I can't
remember.
But, um, the concept of like,give more credit and more voice
to the persons who are showingup and doing the work.
(05:54):
And that was something thatreally stood out for me.
And I think in part as areminder that if you want to
have your voice heard as aleader in, in any sphere, it's
important to also be doing thework that you're asking other
people to do.
Yeah, that, that really struckme.
(06:14):
I kind of related it to we ran aworkshop recently and there was
some parts about it that werestressing me out and just like,
I really don't want to do this.
What if I get it wrong?
What if I don't facilitate theworkshop?
Well, and in the end, it wasjust a reminder of like, you
know, showing up and doingsomething is better than being
over here on the side andstressing about it for so long
(06:36):
and just doing nothing.
And even if it ends up not beinggreat, at least it's better than
it would have been if somebodyjust sat by and like, you know,
backseat drives this thing.
Ashley (06:47):
I think for me, one of the, one of my big takeaways and
I, and I feel like this happensa lot with her books in
particular, because it's notnecessarily something I didn't
know, but having it like spelledout in.
Said back to me for some reasonmade it like it just hit a
(07:09):
little different.
But just like the vulnerabilityaspect of leadership and like it
being okay to not know.
The things and it being okay tovocalize that like, don't know
the next step, but we're gonnafigure it out together.
I think I often feel like Ioften feel a lot of trepidation
(07:33):
in leadership roles because Idon't know it all and.
In my mind, it's like, well,you're leading.
You have to know the things ifyou're gonna do it.
But I feel like it's reallysimilar to what Blake and Joe
are saying.
It's okay to say that you don'tknow.
It's okay to collaborate in aleadership role.
(07:54):
And like, being there andshowing up with that
vulnerability, like, goes somuch farther than pretending
like you know it all when youjust actually don't.
Joe (08:04):
I kind of leaning into that a little bit.
Like she also kind of gets intothe ideas around like the
learning that happens when yourecover from your failures and
like show up and be vulnerableand make a mistake.
aNd that's okay.
Cause that is okay.
(08:24):
As long as you then learn fromthe mistake and improve
Addi (08:29):
Mm hmm.
Joe (08:29):
the next time.
And again, for me, that goesback to that whole, like, Ah,
what if I get it wrong?
And it's like, well, at leastit's an opportunity to get it
wrong and have tried somethingand decide that now that's not
going to work.
How should I do this better nexttime?
Addi (08:46):
Yeah.
And I will point out, the vastmajority of the book is about
vulnerability.
Like she's, it's got fourskillsets, but a lot of the
focus of the book is on thefoundational skillset of
vulnerability, um, that shestarts off with.
I mean, it's the foundation ofwhat she's trying to teach us in
(09:07):
this book, for sure.
Amber (09:09):
I liked the...
I don't know if I liked it, butit was helpful to, to learn to
contrast armoring yourself,versus courage to enter into a,
a tough conversation.
And she really convinced me thatif Like, I can equip myself for
(09:33):
a tough conversation, and sheprovides a lot of tools for
that.
And that's different than kindof doing self protection, in an
unhealthy way.
And she really clarifies thatfor me.
And vulnerability is superscary.
(09:54):
And has gone really, reallywrong many, many times and it's,
you know, there's a lot of,there can be a lot of pain and
hurt and just, well, feelingvulnerable associated with
vulnerability, right?
So I think she makes a good casefor courage and, but she doesn't
(10:14):
just send you in blind, youknow?
She really provides, like,alternatives to self protective
armor, as she puts it.
And, and how you can, you canprepare and you can use tools
and, and you can communicate.
Better and, and truthfully andit can end up with you feeling
(10:37):
more connected to that personand, and you end up with a more
meaningful outcome.
Even though it was difficult togo through, you end up with more
meaning.
And I think that that is going,I'm hoping, I am hopeful that
that will lead to a lot morehappiness instead of the
unhappiness that can come fromjust repeated tough
(10:58):
conversations gone wrong.
So.
Addi (11:02):
Yeah.
I took a lot of things away.
I think one of the things thatlike, I don't know if she
explicitly states it in a quoteanywhere or anything, but one of
the things I really take awayfrom this is that, and she does
sort of talk about it like alittle bit more some of this at
the end in terms of talkingabout quoting someone about
(11:25):
being a leader and being able tohold opposites.
And that, you know, like there'sjust, there's so much stuff
going on and there's like allthis excitement and there's all
this fear and all of thesethings that are trying to
balance out and, you know,taking care of what you have,
but also growing into somethingnew.
And that there are all theseopposites and I feel like, you
know, beyond that, just fromlike a business perspective or
(11:47):
something, but like just like inlife, being aware of the, the
oxymorons of life and that.
And that is what life is andbeing open to holding that and
being present for it is so keyto being able to really see, to
(12:09):
really understand things thatare happening for like me
personally in my life, what'shappening at work, what's
happening, you know, in, in thiscommunity or that community, to
not lock myself up and like, youknow, armor myself in this
certainty Of a, of one side ofsomething, or, you know, one
aspect, because there's sort ofalways two sides to the coin.
(12:31):
And so that was just sort oflike a general reminder, and
it's, and it's hard to sit withthough, it's really
uncomfortable to sit with twoopposites when you just want the
certainty of one, you know, andthat, and that's, that's the
task, that's the job.
That's the work that sort ofunderlies a lot of the stuff
(12:52):
that I felt like she was talkingabout.
So that was just sort of whatwas pinging around in my brain
for a while afterwards.
Does anybody have any drawbacksor warnings or stuff that you
didn't like or didn't understandeven?
Blake (13:09):
I've got one.
Like a couple other folks havementioned, there's a whole bunch
of really good, like actionableexercises and tools throughout
the entire book.
She makes it seem too damn easy.
Like, this is reallycomplicated, frustrating, hard
stuff, and, all of the storiesin the book are just tackled
(13:29):
like, well, this is a piece ofcake.
You just do X, Y, and Z.
And I don't think that survivesevery business culture,
certainly.
I think, It works well when youhave people on board and bought
into this sort of world view andthis sort of model.
But, I know in speaking withsome other folks in my life
(13:50):
that, leadership doesn't workthis way in a lot of places and
a lot of different facets oflife.
And for me, at least, and frommy view, this is totally the
right way to go about trying tobe a leader, but, actually
implementing it, I feel like isreally, really hard and probably
not as.
as painless as it kind of comesacross in the book a little bit.
(14:15):
really think that's a negative.
I mean, I think the hard work issort of the point of the book.
And I think she calls that outquite a bit, but it just, it
seems like as you read the book,this is, of course, the way
things should work.
And like, it's just sort ofobvious in a, in a good way.
Yeah, really hard to implementand really hard to sit with and
(14:36):
get right.
Cause it's, there's sort of noend goal, right?
It's always like a process ofimprovement.
Addi (14:42):
Yeah, it's interesting, we could go off on a whole thing
about like, what is leadershipand who are leaders and that
kind of a thing.
Which I'm not going to gocompletely down that road, but
in terms of like, yeah, this isgreat personal work that I can
do in terms of interacting.
I mean, whether or not you're ina position of authority or not,
these are all things thatmatter, as you said, being
(15:04):
human, like being a human beingand trying to have relationship
with other people.
All this stuff is good and itworks.
And also, what is the, what doesthat look like when you try to
introduce it into a.
Business or an organization, acommunity that is too afraid to
(15:25):
take these chances with you.
And what does, what does thatlook like?
Or how does that play out?
You know, and can you lead byexample, or is it just not work?
And it's not worth the effort.
So I think that's an interestingquestion that she doesn't go
into in the book, which is fairenough because she's going into
a lot of stuff in the book.
but yeah, sort of comes back tothat, like, that would be great
(15:49):
if everybody was on board withthis, but if they're not on
board with it.
Now, what do I do?
How do I
Joe (15:54):
There's like this expectation in the book of like,
well, you as an individual justneed to start doing these things
and tada, you'll be a betterleader.
And while that's true, like itdoesn't.
I wish I got a little bit moreinto addressing like what kind
(16:16):
of structural or systemicbarriers are going to exist
within an organization that'sgoing to stop you from being
able to do that.
And, and how do you do that?
How do you get over that?
Or like, what if I show up oneday and I'm like, I'm going to
be more vulnerable.
And my boss is like, I don'tcare.
I just want outcomes and, like,and your pay is tied to those
(16:36):
outcomes, not yourvulnerability.
I'm like, Oh, I'm sorry.
I'm actually not going to bemore vulnerable.
I take it all back.
And Addi, like you say, it'shard to address everything in a
single book, but if I had acriticism, it would be that I
wish it talked a little bit moreabout how to implement some of
this, like.
(16:57):
System wide and not just as anindividual.
Addi (17:00):
Yeah.
I also feel like there is a lotin the book and she has lots of
tools and even has likeworksheets for you to work
through and stuff, which isgreat.
And I also found myself beinglike, Oh, my gosh, how much time
do I need to actually.
Work through all of these toolsand like implement them, you
(17:20):
know, so yeah, not a criticismbecause I think it's great and I
think it's very much a case ofwhat thing calls to you the most
or what thing resonates with youmost and maybe take that aside
and work on it.
But it was also, it was one ofthose kind of like, oh, there's
so much good stuff and I want todo all of it.
And now I'm overwhelmed, kind offeeling, that came out of it for
(17:41):
sure.
So I kind of want to go back andsort of, think through what does
implementation of this look likefor me, without, you know,
freaking myself out, basically.
And, and of course, like,there's also another
conversation that we can have asa team of, like, what, if any of
(18:02):
this, do we want to implement?
As a team, going forward andthings like that, but definitely
need like time for that, thatthought process and conversation
to happen.
Cause there's, there's just somuch stuff in there for sure.
All right.
So she has four skill sets ofdaring leadership in the book.
(18:22):
That's how the book is.
Presented and you have sections.
The first section, like I said,is is like huge.
It's the majority of the book,which is rumbling with
vulnerability and she put, youknow, she calls out several
times like this is thefoundational thing.
And if you cannot rumble withvulnerability, the other stuff
isn't going to happen or it'snot going to affect in the way
(18:43):
that you want it to.
And then she has living into ourvalues.
Braving trust and learning torise, which is the failure
learning from failure.
And so of these four just skillsets and sort of what she was
talking about.
Did any one or more of them, Iguess, like resonate in
(19:06):
particular for you?
And that can be either for youpersonally or for us as an
organization, like at work and,and something that you'd see,
maybe we should, should beinvestigating and leaning into
more
Amber (19:20):
Well, I don't know exactly, I don't remember
exactly how she puts it, but shesays something along the lines
of how working on yourself,defining yourself is first
before you can really lead, youknow, lead.
And after that huge section,like the long section on
(19:41):
vulnerability, honestly, theliving into your values thing
was I latched right onto thatbecause it was like, it was kind
of a relief.
And after all of this, like hardself introspection on things,
like, you know, anyway, theliving, I, so I really latched
onto the living interior valuesbecause I, we've thought about
(20:02):
that as a team personally.
I have, but I really haven'tdone In my opinion, like enough
work on that, or I've kind ofseen kind of gaps in how I'm
defining my values for myself.
So that's what I, that's whatreally resonated with me.
I feel like that's like a goodstarting point for me to dig
into.
(20:22):
These tools because it's like,it's not an easy win, but it
sort of feels like easier thanall the other things, you know,
it's like, I can at least starthere and, and define my values,
like the one or two values thatare really central And reflect
on that and work on everythingelse seems to like, kind of flow
through that.
And then I can work on theother, other things first.
(20:45):
So I, yeah, I liked the livinginto your value section the
most.
Addi (20:50):
nice.
That totally
Blake (20:52):
I'll kind of take the counter to that where I feel
like.
I think the living in your valuesection is really important, but
I am terrible at going throughthose activities and like
actually picking values.
I'll look at the big checklistand be like, I like these 25 and
I don't care that you told me totake two.
I like 25 deal with it.
(21:13):
So for me, like, that's the onethat definitely if I'm getting
the elementary school reportcard for myself and need
improvement on that one forsure.
But I think the rumbling withvulnerability stood out the most
in part because it's.
More than half the book, butalso I feel like that's the
piece that sort of has to happeninside of an organization,
(21:33):
especially before any of theother stuff kind of can work
like you have to have a, youhave to have a culture where
you're comfortable with takingenough risk to fail before you
can fail successfully, or, youhave to be comfortable being
vulnerable with somebody beforeyou can really trust them, I
(21:54):
think.
So for me, that one is sort ofthe bedrock of everything else.
But I hear what you're saying,Amber, about the living into
your values.
I think that's really important.
I just think that I'm terribleat defining that and probably
it's a sign I need to spend moretime on some of those exercises
and some of that part of thebook.
Amber (22:14):
For what it's worth, I'm also whittling down from 25.
Joe (22:16):
It's kind of like that scenario where everyone always
asks you like, so Joe, what areyour personal goals?
And you're, it's just like, I'mokay with not having any right
now.
Like that's fine.
Thought that from.
The perspective of all of usworking together, that the
(22:36):
rumbling with vulnerability hadthe most takeaways for me,
especially because like, I justkept picturing myself on a zoom
call with all of youimplementing these different
practices.
And I was like, ah, that's whatthis would feel like to do on a
zoom call.
Yeah.
That's what this would feellike.
And maybe my next step there waslike, I feel like.
(22:58):
As a company, we already do areally good job of giving each
other the space and thepermission to be vulnerable.
Like, I don't, I don't see ushaving, for example,
institutional blockers tosomeone being vulnerable.
But I do think there's anopportunity for us to
institutionalize it a bit more.
(23:18):
And in the book, um, she talks alot about, you know, there are
different practices for meetingsand they had specific names for
when you do, you know, arevulnerable in a certain way, or
you call a stop to a meeting orwhatever.
And, you know, it's sort oflike, while We all have
permission to do that.
We don't, it's not necessarily aformal, like this is how you do
(23:42):
it.
And I, I personally, I thinkthat having a formal, this is
how you do it, makes it easierto do it in those moments when
you're feeling really vulnerablebecause you don't have to spend
the sort of capital thinkingabout, you know, the willpower
to figure out how am I going todo this?
(24:03):
You can just spend the willpowerthinking, okay, I'm actually
going to push this button rightnow.
Ashley (24:10):
I would agree that the vulnerability portion, hit home
the most, I think, for a lot ofreasons.
I think because it pertains toso much of my personal life
also, and it really forced me tosee myself and I was just like,
whoo, you know?
(24:32):
You've got, you've got some workto do, around this topic.
And it's also I feel like it'skind of like a theme in her
books.
I've only read two, so I could,like, really be jumping the gun
here.
But it was also part of the lastbook as well that I read.
And I'm just gosh, this thingis, really important, like, in
(24:54):
my life.
And I should probably, spendsome time working on it.
And I feel like I gravitated, Igravitate towards it, because I
think that it is the area whereI need the most, refinement.
Like, it, it requires moreattention for me, like,
(25:14):
thousands.
Addi (25:15):
Yeah.
I, you know, the, yeah, thevulnerability thing of course is
like a huge section.
Of the book and I feel like,sort of like Joe saying, like as
an organization, there'sprobably a lot that we can do
to, I mean, work on all thethings in here, but I think, one
of the things I find importantin other groups that I've been
(25:40):
working with this year iscreating the container and the
expectation for vulnerability.
Completely changes.
So it's not like it's notpossible or not allowed.
But when someone specificallycomes out and builds this room
(26:02):
that says this is this safespace.
This is why it is safe.
This is how it is safe.
This is how we will all agree tobehave in this room.
And this is how you can expressyourself.
Just Yeah, just changeseverything about how you
actually interact.
And so I feel like that'sdefinitely a thing I would like
(26:24):
us to actively work on and, andchange for sure.
As like a, a pretty big firststep, I think, for me.
Personally, I ended up the, thebraving trust was really
interesting because she has thisacronym braving and sort of
these different steps and it'svery much like these are
(26:45):
questions to ask.
And are you actually in thisrelationship right now with this
person?
Are all of these elements.
In play, and I feel like that'sjust something that it's just,
it's a really interesting way tobreak down trust and what trust
is, and actually checking sortof real time is, is this
(27:07):
actually a trusting situation ornot?
And if it's not, why not?
So I kind of want to play withthat a little bit, uh, for sure
on my own.
Joe (27:18):
I like the, the idea of building the container in which
you can be vulnerable or holdingspace for, for people that
express themselves.
And I, to some extent, I thinkthat's kind of like the, that's
how as a business you get tolive into your values.
And, you know, a little bit oflike, it's one thing to say, we
(27:39):
support you in doing this, goahead and do it if you want to.
And another to say, like, here'sthe space to do that.
The time, you know, like And,and you can do it anytime you
want to, but also I set asidetime for you to do it on
Wednesdays at two.
You now have nothing in yourschedule.
Go take care of that.
And that's such a differentapproach to a business living
(28:03):
its values then I think what ismore common, which is like, Hey,
we listed a bunch of things inour handbook that our values.
And we say, you can, you can dothem, but you have to ask, or
you have to like be, you'reresponsible for doing it.
It's such a different thing thansomeone else kind of holding the
space for you to do it.
Addi (28:22):
hmm.
Yep.
Amber (28:25):
Yeah, I think that in our organization, we have a lot of
assumptions around the thingsdiscussed in these books, but to
have some actions and to reallyimplement these things, just
like you said, is, it's going tobe the key for us to really be
authentic in how we live intoour values and how we do all of
(28:46):
these things.
So, yeah, I think we assumeThank you.
That we're doing okay, and Ithink that we probably are, but
there's, there's so much roomfor improvement that we've all,
like, learned this, if I thinkthat there's a lot of room
personally for improvement,that, like, that translates out
to, well, then that affects theteam.
(29:07):
I'm a part of this team.
If I need improvement, then thatmeans the team, and maybe the
team can help me, and that wholeasking for help thing, and,
Providing those rules andbuilding that container.
It also leads to a lot ofcreative solutions.
Because once you have thoseconstraints, and you have these
rules, then, you, there's a lotmore, there's actually a lot
(29:30):
more freedom there.
So, yeah.
I'm excited for the future.
And for, you know, for us tryingout these things and putting
them into practice.
I think it's going to be alittle rough at first.
But, I think, Once we get intothe practice of it, it'll, it'll
be really meaningful work.
Addi (29:49):
Yeah, we have a lot to learn, which would make Brene
very happy.
We're going to make a lot ofmistakes.
Everybody is going to beawesome.
Joe (30:00):
I'm just waiting for the moment when our interactions on
zoom are like the equivalent ofsome of the anecdotes in the
book, where it is like, like thea hundred percent perfect
application of the thing thatI've just told you about.
And you're like that, that's nothow conversations happen in real
life.
I get what you're illustratinghere, but come on,
Addi (30:22):
And then suddenly we'll be like.
Whoa.
Did we just do a Brené?
Amber (30:29):
someone will say, Amber, are you reading out of the book
right now?
Joe (30:32):
right?
Addi (30:36):
Totally.
Well, thanks everybody forreading the book and coming on
to talk about it.
I am excited for conversationsthat we're going to have on our
team calls in the future as wesort out how do we want to
implement them This stuff andand sort of take these lessons
to heart.
Like what does that actuallyreally mean for us?
(30:59):
Day to day going forward likewhat changes do we want to make
and then how are we going toimplement those and I think
that's going to be goodconversations and I look forward
to being uncomfortable with youall
Amber (31:13):
yay?
Addi (31:14):
so anyway, yeah, thanks everybody
Ashley (31:17):
It's like, I think that's good.
Yay.
Addi (31:38):
Hey, so thanks for listening and let us know if you
have questions, comments, orsuggestions for what you'd like
to hear more about.
You can find all of the variousways to reach us on our website
at osiolabs.com.
That's O S I O L A B S.com.
(31:58):
Also, please make sure tosubscribe to the podcast on your
podcast provider of choice.
We'll catch you on the nextepisode.
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