August 22, 2023 • 27 mins
In this episode Addi and Amber talk about Margaret Wheatley's book Who Do We Choose To Be? Facing Reality, Claiming Leadership, Restoring Sanity. The title is a mouthful and the content lives up to the big name. It's a pretty sobering look at the failure of civilization around us, and it also shows a path forward for creating "islands of sanity" through brave and compassionate leadership.
In each chapter you get some science and history to set the stage, and then a breakdown of the topic from the perspectives in the title: Facing Reality, Claiming Leadership, and Restoring Sanity, which lays out her ideas on the path through it all.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hey everybody.
This is Addison Berry, andyou're listening to the Osio
Labs podcast.
The show that explores thequestion.
How can we create sustainablebusinesses that care for people
and make the world a betterplace?
On today's episode, I'm joinedby my colleague, Amber Matz.
This is episode number six, andwe're going to chat about the
book"Who do we choose to be?
(00:21):
Facing Reality, ClaimingLeadership, Restoring Sanity by
Margaret Wheatley.
This is a pretty sobering bookthat takes a hard look at where
we are in the world today.
We're given a good dose ofscience and history that walks
us through the collapse ofcivilizations.
And the necessary components forsurvival.
Not in a zombie apocalypse waythough, but how do we keep our
(00:42):
humanity?
How do we lead towards a futurethrough dark times?
For each chapter, you get somescience and then a breakdown of
the topic from the perspectivesin the title.
Facing reality.
Claiming leadership.
And restoring sanity.
Which lays out her ideas on thepath through it with a focus on
sanity humanity and compassion Iactually originally read this
(01:04):
book last year and then rereadit to do this podcast along with
Amber.
And I'm super curious to talkabout this book because I find
this book fascinating.
So I'm excited to, to talk aboutit and with somebody else who's
(01:25):
read it on the team.
And so we'll just dive straightin.
What was your overallimpression?
What do you think of this book?
My overall impression of thisbook was that it, it was.
It's, it was stunning.
Not in the like, stunning, oh,this is so beautiful.
(01:46):
It's stunning.
In the, I'm stunned.
Like I am kind of shocked andlike, oh, oh, okay.
Things are as bad as I thought.
It was really kind of affirmingin that way.
Just having, you know, threeyears of discussions.
Mostly with my husband duringthe pandemic and everything else
(02:08):
that happened, and it was justvalidating in a way mm-hmm.
To have like the things that wewere talking about and we're
like, am I, you know, these kindof, are we crazy?
Or is the world crazy?
Like, what, who, mm-hmm.
What is happening here?
Where's the sanity?
Where's the, you know, where'sthat line?
(02:30):
So it was, My overall impressionwas it was very thought
provoking and validating kind ofat the same time.
So yeah, it was one of those,yeah.
Mm-hmm.
You recommend this book toother, other people or who would
you recommend it to?
Might be a better question.
I don't know.
I would, the thing that kind ofkeeps me from.
(02:53):
Recommending it to anyone andeveryone is, the feeling I had
when I was reading it was thatthe audience is for like leader
people, like definite leaders.
Hmm.
And like people who are in kindof leadership roles and that's
how they think of themselves, orthey're just, they're in that
(03:14):
mindset of leadership, whetherthey have an official role or
not.
They're in the mindset of beinga leader.
Okay.
Whether that's in theircommunity or their workplace or
an organization or whatever.
And you know, I haven't thoughtof myself as a leader in so many
years that it was you.
(03:36):
I haven't thought in those termsor I haven't had that mindset.
In terms of how can I be ofservice to those around me or
like, you know, kind of thatservant leadership kind of
mindset.
That was something that was kindof.
It was both interesting, butalso I kind of felt a little
disconnected, like mm-hmm.
Oh, there's a lot behind whatshe's saying.
(03:58):
there's a lot of thought and alot of people think about this
stuff all the time.
Mm-hmm.
And this felt like, or, or asurvey of, of a lot of different
schools of thought, you know,and it just felt.
It was a little bit overwhelmingin that regard and a little bit,
I kind of struggled to connectwith the, the ultimate kind of
(04:20):
call to action, of how can youcontribute to this world.
You know, it, the world being aswhat it is so I found that the,
kind of thought exercise isinteresting and I think it's
interesting for anyone to kindof.
Who's been struggling to makesense of the world.
(04:43):
It, it gives you someinteresting things to think
about and an interestingframework, an interesting
perspective from different youknow, his history, science.
Mm-hmm.
Neurobiology, you know, allsorts of different perspectives.
So I think it was helpful inthat regard, but, I'm still kind
of grappling with the call toaction, like, what does that
(05:05):
mean for me?
So that was kind of, I don't, Idon't know.
Yeah.
Right.
If you, so if you wererecommending it to somebody,
would you recommend it to peoplewho are in leadership roles
already and like for otherpeople, sort of like have a, a
caveat or a maybe.
(05:27):
Read something else first towarm you up or something, or,
well, for example, I, I wascamping with my family and my
brother is a professor of, youknow, in, in the university and
he's also recently taken on a, aleadership position in, in a
church.
So I, I absolutely recommendedit to him and I talked to him
(05:50):
about it and I thought it wouldbe an interesting thing for him
to read and also even somethingto bring his students through.
Mm-hmm.
and so I.
Definitely recommended it tohim.
Right.
Um, because he's in a positionof influencing and, and leading
young people who are trying tomake sense of the world and what
(06:12):
their place is in it.
Mm-hmm.
And who are grappling with a lotof kind of big questions about
the future.
So absolutely.
I recommended it to him.
I kinda struggled to recommendit to other people.
I read passages to my husband,but I wouldn't outright like
recommend it wholesale toanyone.
(06:33):
Right.
'cause I think it would just bekind of lost on them.
Like it, they wouldn't reallysee the point.
I think the appeal is to See thepers, the different perspectives
she was talking about, mm-hmm.
Her perspectives on what'shappening in the world.
I think that's very kind ofuniversally interesting.
But like I said, it's like thekind of the call to action,
(06:53):
like, right.
The contribution piece I thinkwould be kind of just because,
interesting, like we're stillkind of in this insular, We're
just kind of trying to protectourselves a bit.
We're kind of in thisself-protective mode where we're
just like, world is going alittle nuts, and we're trying to
kind of insulate ourselves fromthat instead of in the mindset
(07:15):
of, okay, how can we serve inthis capacity or be islands of
sanity to those around us?
So for me it was like a it's apersonal growth call to action.
Like how can I.
Grow and be in a position towhere I can be an island of
sanity, which is a term she usedisn't part of her call to action
(07:35):
and so it just kind of made meaware of the gap between where I
am personally and where I wouldneed to be in order to
contribute in the way that sheis.
Calling people too, right?
Yeah, it's interesting'cause Imean, of course like I guess I'm
in a leadership role, right?
So for me, right, that is not athing that sort of occurred to
(07:56):
me.
And this leads to, and, and wehave talked about this and we've
talked about this on the team.
I want us to do another podcaston what is leadership.
Sure.
'cause a lot of people don'tidentify as leaders who actually
are leaders.
They just don't mm-hmm.
Know what to recognize it.
So that's a whole separateconversation that we will not
dive into here.
(08:17):
Um, but I, I find it interestingso I think like that is a
critical.
Question though, which is why Iwanna do whole podcast on it.
Mm-hmm.
Because I see that theme risingover and over and over again.
Mm-hmm.
in lots of different facets.
but back to having this bookfeel sort of like a, I don't
(08:37):
know, like an enlightening tosort of where you are, where
things are and where you mightwant to be, do you.
Feel like it could do that forother people too.
To just sort of be like, I'm nota leader, but I get what she's
saying and I want to, I want tobe able to take action.
(09:00):
Mm-hmm.
So something's gotta change inorder for me to come back to
this book in a year and mm-hmm.
Or you know what I mean?
Like do you think Yeah.
Or do you think it's just Onaverage too, too overwhelming
for, so my take on it is that Ithink this book is amazing.
Mm-hmm.
And it definitely mm-hmm.
made me feel not alone.
(09:21):
Yes.
And not crazy in my Yes.
Dark cynicism that I lived inmm-hmm.
For a very long time.
And, and it sort of validatedall of that.
And then gave me this thread ofhope that I previously had not
been able to see in that mm-hmm.
(09:42):
Mess, you know?
Mm-hmm.
but I agree that recommending itis I would definitely recommend
it'cause I, I find it just areally fascinating book.
And also someone needs to beprepared to be overwhelmed,
like, yeah.
The first time I read this book,I felt dumped into the deep end.
(10:06):
Yeah.
like it, it's very overwhelming.
there's like a lot ofinformation, a lot of it kind of
coming at you, and I find it,I'd be like, I, wow, this is a
really good point.
And then, you know, three pageslater, oh my gosh, this is a
really good point.
And I would forget the otherpoint because I was yeah, I was
just being.
(10:28):
But all of this new reallyinteresting stuff and my brain
just sort of couldn't keep up.
And then on this, mm-hmm.
Second, read through having anidea of what was going on.
Mm-hmm.
And having been book before, Icould pace myself better and
sort of absorb the things that Iwanted to focus on better.
(10:48):
Mm-hmm.
So recommending it to someone,but also maybe having the caveat
of just don't.
Get overwhelmed with the wholething.
Take the bits that you want fromit and then maybe come back to
it again at a, yeah, at a laterpoint.
'cause it's, it's a lot.
It's, it's a definitely a hugedump of information and
(11:09):
perspective and new ways ofthinking and, it can be a little
tiring, I think that.
I'm glad that I read it all theway through, and I felt those
feelings of overwhelm andvalidation as well.
I would like to read it again,but in, in more of a kind of a
devotional kind of journal sortof a way.
(11:32):
Mm-hmm.
Like take one, ES read, it'sbasically a series of essays.
Mm-hmm.
And and read one essay at atime.
And do and write, writesomething, you know?
Right.
Mm-hmm.
Like basically journal throughit, right.
Absorb, absorb whatever washappening there.
Yeah.
Yeah.
she does, I mean, she doesrecommend doing such a thing,
(11:54):
you know, like she does, shedoes prepare you, you know,
she's like, this is going to beoverwhelming.
You should take your time.
That's why there are imagesthrough all of those things are,
she's aware.
Totally of, of how ooverwhelming it is.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
So I, I feel like it's, it's agood book to spend some time
(12:14):
with and to study.
Mm-hmm.
And if it's not this kind offast food, quick read sort of a
book.
It's a good study group book.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Over, yeah.
Over, you know, a couple months.
Yeah.
Of like really taking your timeto read, think, write, talk
about it.
Mm-hmm.
(12:34):
Sort of absorb that thing andthen move on to the next.
Absolutely.
I feel like that would actuallybe a really cool mm-hmm.
Cool process, uh, to do withthis book in particular.
I absolutely agree.
I would definitely recommend itas a study group discussion
book.
I think you, it's.
Hmm, this gives, definitelygives me an idea to try and
(12:58):
start something like this.
'cause I think it would be a, afun way to get through this
book.
Fun.
Mm-hmm.
It, yeah.
do you, so you were saying interms of the call to action
didn't resonate as well'causeyou weren't, you're like, where,
how, where, how, what?
And then, so I'm just curious,is there a takeaway from, for
you, From the book or an, anaction you do wanna take or a
(13:22):
thing that you were like, I'lltake this one thing from it and
sort of carry forward with thisfor a little while, kind of a
thing.
Is there anything like that thatcame out of it for you?
Sure.
I think that the, the thing Itook away from it was that
there's an alternative to thisfeeling of being, that you're
being swept along this currentof life.
(13:42):
At a, you know, I did a lot ofwhitewater rafting in my youth.
Mm-hmm.
And it feels like that's howlife feels for me right now.
And it's felt like that for along time, where I'm just being
swept along and you're justdoing your best to avoid
obstacles and stay in the boatand when you fall out of the
raft, getting back into it asquickly as possible.
(14:03):
So that's how, that's thefeeling I have in this kind of
anxiety, you know, kind of.
Thrilling anxiety of survival,you know?
Mm-hmm.
And that's kind of lessening asyou know, things have kind of
calmed down in my mind anyway.
(14:24):
Mm-hmm.
and so just the alternativebeing to be an island of sanity
and to kind of yeah.
That alternative is like acomplete contrast to mm-hmm.
This feeling of being sweptalong a river.
So, mm-hmm.
I find that it's important forme to have people who were those
(14:46):
islands and so like I see thebenefit of it and how much it's
helped me.
And so To do that in turn forother people is a real, it's a,
it's a real challenge.
I think that the, the reason whythe call to action is hard for
me to relate to.
It's, it's not so much that it'shard for me to relate to.
(15:08):
It's just, it's such achallenging prospect to think
about because I still feel likeI'm on the needful end of that,
where it's something that I needin my life.
Mm-hmm.
And to turn around and be thatfor someone else is that.
That seems like a no, uh, goodthing to do, whether or not I,
you know, and really hard to do,and the challenge and hard to
(15:29):
do.
And so the challenge is, sheeven says this, like, we need
stable people to be islands ofsanity.
And I'm not trying to say I'munstable, but it feels like, I
do feel like mm-hmm.
My, you know, that there is a,a, a measure of instability.
And so the, the reason why thecall to action is hard for me is
(15:51):
because.
It's such a challenge to thinkabout.
It's just, it's not how I'vethought of myself or how I can
contribute.
So it's just a real wake up calland it's, it's a, it's a, it's
something that I am gonnacontinue to think about.
I do plan on rereading this andgoing through it a little more
(16:11):
slowly and doing some writingalong with it, some journaling.
Mm-hmm.
it'd be great to do a discussiongroup with it too.
And, you know, yeah.
Have people to talk about itwith because it's just, there's
just this gap.
So the takeaway is yes, there'san alternative to feeling kind
of swept along the insanity ofthis world and that you can
(16:33):
actually be, I.
An island of sanity.
You can be an advocate for otherpeople and you can, you can
serve in, in a world that iskind of crumbling around you.
Right.
So that's kind of a heady callto action actually.
It is, yeah.
For sure.
and I would say like thedefinitely there's essentially
(16:57):
this, this.
Idea of, of creating islands of,of sanity as mm-hmm.
The world crumbles around us.
And my take on that because thatis like an overwhelming
individual task.
My take on that is an island isnot a person, right?
(17:18):
An island is a community ofpeople who are helping each
other.
Do this hard work.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
So that it's not, I have tobecome this like island of
sanity that others can thenattach to.
But it's more like, can, can twoor three of us hold onto each
other Right.
(17:39):
And help anchor each othermm-hmm.
And help build each other up.
Yeah.
You know, and, and like that.
And like, I think that's where,for me, that's really.
What the community part of thisis that she's speaking of is
like mm-hmm.
You're not gonna do this alone.
(17:59):
Yeah.
And how do we, you know, providethis?
But like, you know, nobody'sperfect.
Nobody's gonna be able to bethis perfect island of sanity
themselves.
But if you have multiple peoplewho are working together to
create this island of sanity,you don't have to hold it up a
hundred percent of the time allby yourself.
and, and support everybody.
Then you can like get tired andothers will support you.
(18:22):
Right.
And pass it around, you know?
yeah.
That does sound a a lot moreappealing.
Trying to transform myself intosome sort of magical superhero
beacon of foundation doesn'tseem possible.
Totally.
Yeah.
I think my takeaway again,beyond sort of what you're
saying, like this, this idea of.
(18:44):
It's all going to hell in a handbasket, but here is something
that you can still do that ismm-hmm.
That is meaningful in the midstof that.
And that's such a, it was sucha, a light that came into my
life.
and so that is just a wonderfultakeaway from the book period.
In terms of more practicalaspects of it, I guess the
(19:07):
whole, like she has like, youknow, chapters and she works
soon, but she starts offessentially talking about
identity and then perception andall of the various ways that, we
identify and that you have tohave this permeable barrier.
So you have to have a barrier,you have to have an identity,
but it has to be permeable toinformation in order to survive.
(19:28):
Yeah.
That's like sort of the thrustof a lot of her like scientific,
uh, social stuff.
Mm-hmm.
It just really made me this timereading and it really made me
stop and think about whatidentity is.
and how do you identify anisland of sanity?
How do you keep that identityhealthy?
(19:51):
Right.
You know?
And of course, you know, I mean,I think about this in terms of
my whole life.
Also specifically here.
Talking about it with, with youand reading in the context of
this podcast.
Mm-hmm.
I think about it at work, right?
Like, we have this team or thistiny little company and we have
an identity and we, we arebuilding our own island of
(20:13):
sanity in mm-hmm.
In this world right now.
So what does that actually looklike in me in terms of what
she's talking about?
Mm-hmm.
Um, with identity and perceptionand This permeability and you
know, information is not data.
Like there, there, those are twodifferent things.
And so any, anyway, for me, I'mlike, huh, this is something I
(20:34):
really wanna think about withinspecific context of identity in
my life.
And you know, we have anupcoming retreat in about a
month or so, and I'm like, I, Iwant us to sit down and talk
about our identity Yeah.
As a, as a group and.
You know, what we're doing andhow we are learning and how are
(20:56):
we surviving and how do we, howdo we see that happening?
And just bringing it toconsciousness.
yeah.
Instead of, I mean, we have ourvalues listed and we have our
mission and our vision, butthat's part of identity, but
that's not all of it.
And I feel like it's a, mm-hmm.
I think it's a good thing toexplore in multiple places,
like, you know, within yourfamily, within your, you know,
(21:17):
various groups.
Mm-hmm.
So that's one of the big thingsI took out of this reading of it
was, Hmm, really just sort ofstopping and taking a step back
and really thinking about thisidentity and, and what is an
island of sanity from thatperspective that she actually
raises in the book.
So yeah, that's, mm-hmm.
That's what's kicking in my headthese days.
(21:38):
Really good.
Yeah.
We'll be showing up at the teamretreat in a few weeks.
I look forward to that.
Yeah.
I guess we're, we're alreadysort of running down on time.
I mean, we could launch into thewhole thing about the progress
trap and technology, but I thinkthat's gonna take a lot longer
(21:59):
than the time that we have leftthis podcast.
Yeah, it's, so that could be aninteresting, potentially an
interesting future podcastmaybe.
but so, Maybe we can just wrapup with sort of, do you have any
other sort of last thoughts or,anything that we might have
missed talking about points thatyou wanted to, to raise?
(22:21):
I was just remembering one ofthe, the other kind of main
things that I thought was reallyhelpful about this book was the
different ways and differentperspectives in which that.
That she provides help, help youto accept reality for what it
is.
Hmm.
To not be sugarcoating in.
And she, you know, has thislittle thing on Hopium.
(22:43):
And as an optimist myself, likea lot of who really had my
optimism dismantled in the pastfew years, it was, I think it's
a really important.
Thing to, especially in theworld of generative AI and all
of the things, and all of themisinformation and
(23:04):
disinformation, and she talksabout that in the book as well,
and all the propaganda andeverything, how.
How challenging it is to discernreality and Oh yeah.
To discern truth, and it's sohard and it's getting, it's
going to get harder.
It's really chaotic andintentionally made difficult,
(23:29):
it's not even subtle.
It's like fun for people now tolike distort reality, to mess
with you.
It's like entertainment messwith, yeah.
Mm-hmm.
So that was a really important,that was one of those validating
things like, yeah, it is hard tofigure out what is reality and
what is the truth.
And it's very difficult andthere's a lot of different
(23:52):
disciplines out there.
Mm-hmm.
you know, history, science, youknow, many different things.
That can contribute to helpingus understand how we're
perceiving the world and howthose lenses affect our
perception.
And just being aware of what,how you're perceiving things so
(24:12):
that you can step outside thatgetting even more perspective,
get perspective on yourperspective was really kind of
meta, you know, to reallyunderstand how it is that you're
taking in the world.
And.
Question that, so that you canbe a better, so that you can
(24:32):
better understand the actualreality and to not feel like, to
be, to be able to contend withthat and just accept it instead
of sugarcoating it or anythingelse, like mm-hmm.
Trying to believe that it'sgoing to be somewhat different
and, and I, that reallyresonated with me and it was
(24:55):
something that I felt wascritical during the last few
years especially with, with thepandemic, is understanding
reality like, Yes, this isreality and yes, it's this bad
and this is what, how we need torespond and how we need to
support each other.
So in that sense, I absolutely,I think that's what she's
saying.
Mm-hmm.
Is we need to understand realityand all of its truth and all of
(25:18):
its harshness and thus this ishow we need to support each
other and Right.
And respond.
But don't pretend this isn'thappening and then behave as if
it isn't happening.
Yeah.
Right.
That's.
Yeah, that's where theconspiracy theories, theories
and the, and the communitiesthat are just kind of living
outside of reality in their ownbubbles.
(25:39):
That's how those are bornbecause they're not accepting
reality.
So, yeah.
Yeah.
I would recommend this book ifmm-hmm.
Especially if you can findsomeone to discuss it with.
Mm-hmm.
And if you can read it withsomeone or like, I'm going to do
Spend some time with it and bejournaling through it, so
mm-hmm.
understanding that as for anaudience of leaders, but you
(26:00):
don't necessarily like for me.
Mm-hmm.
Like, maybe I just am not, maybeI'm a leader and I just don't
even know it, you know?
Oh, and yeah.
Just not to like, Spoilers, butyou are.
So, but we'll talk about that onanother podcast.
We'll talk about that later.
Yeah.
Because everybody, everybody onthis team who's been on this
podcast needs to have thisconversation apparently again,
(26:21):
but yes.
Yeah.
Anyway.
Yeah.
Cool.
And I would say for anybodywho's listening to this podcast,
if you are curious about thisbook or if you've read this book
and got completely overwhelmedby it, if you want to have.
Some kind of discussion or studypartner or group mm-hmm.
Or something like that.
Reach out to us and let us know,like we are, yeah.
(26:42):
We are down for that.
And for sure, I would love tohave other people read this book
and talk about it and try toYes.
Muddle through it together, so.
Mm-hmm.
Anyway, if you're listening andyou're interested, drop us a
line and and we will, we willdefinitely respond and, and
mm-hmm.
Help with open arms.
(27:03):
Well thank you very much ma'am.
Thanks for reading it.
Thanks for, for getting throughit.
Yeah.
And and the conversation and youknow, obviously there will be
more conversing on this one forsure.
absolutely.
Coming soon.
Hey, so thanks for listening andlet us know if you have
questions, comments, orsuggestions for what you'd like
to hear more about.
(27:25):
You can find all of the variousways to reach us on our website
at osiolabs.com.
That's O S I O L A B S.com.
Also, please make sure tosubscribe to the podcast on your
podcast provider of choice.
We'll catch you on the nextepisode.
Hey everybody.
This is Addison Berry, andyou're listening to the Osio
Labs podcast.
The show that explores thequestion.
How can we create sustainablebusinesses that care for people
and make the world a betterplace?
On today's episode, I'm joinedby my colleague, Amber Matz.
This is episode number six, andwe're going to chat about the
book"Who do we choose to be?
(00:21):
Facing Reality, ClaimingLeadership, Restoring Sanity by
Margaret Wheatley.
This is a pretty sobering bookthat takes a hard look at where
we are in the world today.
We're given a good dose ofscience and history that walks
us through the collapse ofcivilizations.
And the necessary components forsurvival.
Not in a zombie apocalypse waythough, but how do we keep our
(00:42):
humanity?
How do we lead towards a futurethrough dark times?
For each chapter, you get somescience and then a breakdown of
the topic from the perspectivesin the title.
Facing reality.
Claiming leadership.
And restoring sanity.
Which lays out her ideas on thepath through it with a focus on
sanity humanity and compassion Iactually originally read this
(01:04):
book last year and then rereadit to do this podcast along with
Amber.
And I'm super curious to talkabout this book because I find
this book fascinating.
So I'm excited to, to talk aboutit and with somebody else who's
(01:25):
read it on the team.
And so we'll just dive straightin.
What was your overallimpression?
What do you think of this book?
My overall impression of thisbook was that it, it was.
It's, it was stunning.
Not in the like, stunning, oh,this is so beautiful.
(01:46):
It's stunning.
In the, I'm stunned.
Like I am kind of shocked andlike, oh, oh, okay.
Things are as bad as I thought.
It was really kind of affirmingin that way.
Just having, you know, threeyears of discussions.
Mostly with my husband duringthe pandemic and everything else
(02:08):
that happened, and it was justvalidating in a way mm-hmm.
To have like the things that wewere talking about and we're
like, am I, you know, these kindof, are we crazy?
Or is the world crazy?
Like, what, who, mm-hmm.
What is happening here?
Where's the sanity?
Where's the, you know, where'sthat line?
(02:30):
So it was, My overall impressionwas it was very thought
provoking and validating kind ofat the same time.
So yeah, it was one of those,yeah.
Mm-hmm.
You recommend this book toother, other people or who would
you recommend it to?
Might be a better question.
I don't know.
I would, the thing that kind ofkeeps me from.
(02:53):
Recommending it to anyone andeveryone is, the feeling I had
when I was reading it was thatthe audience is for like leader
people, like definite leaders.
Hmm.
And like people who are in kindof leadership roles and that's
how they think of themselves, orthey're just, they're in that
(03:14):
mindset of leadership, whetherthey have an official role or
not.
They're in the mindset of beinga leader.
Okay.
Whether that's in theircommunity or their workplace or
an organization or whatever.
And you know, I haven't thoughtof myself as a leader in so many
years that it was you.
(03:36):
I haven't thought in those termsor I haven't had that mindset.
In terms of how can I be ofservice to those around me or
like, you know, kind of thatservant leadership kind of
mindset.
That was something that was kindof.
It was both interesting, butalso I kind of felt a little
disconnected, like mm-hmm.
Oh, there's a lot behind whatshe's saying.
(03:58):
there's a lot of thought and alot of people think about this
stuff all the time.
Mm-hmm.
And this felt like, or, or asurvey of, of a lot of different
schools of thought, you know,and it just felt.
It was a little bit overwhelmingin that regard and a little bit,
I kind of struggled to connectwith the, the ultimate kind of
(04:20):
call to action, of how can youcontribute to this world.
You know, it, the world being aswhat it is so I found that the,
kind of thought exercise isinteresting and I think it's
interesting for anyone to kindof.
Who's been struggling to makesense of the world.
(04:43):
It, it gives you someinteresting things to think
about and an interestingframework, an interesting
perspective from different youknow, his history, science.
Mm-hmm.
Neurobiology, you know, allsorts of different perspectives.
So I think it was helpful inthat regard, but, I'm still kind
of grappling with the call toaction, like, what does that
(05:05):
mean for me?
So that was kind of, I don't, Idon't know.
Yeah.
Right.
If you, so if you wererecommending it to somebody,
would you recommend it to peoplewho are in leadership roles
already and like for otherpeople, sort of like have a, a
caveat or a maybe.
(05:27):
Read something else first towarm you up or something, or,
well, for example, I, I wascamping with my family and my
brother is a professor of, youknow, in, in the university and
he's also recently taken on a, aleadership position in, in a
church.
So I, I absolutely recommendedit to him and I talked to him
(05:50):
about it and I thought it wouldbe an interesting thing for him
to read and also even somethingto bring his students through.
Mm-hmm.
and so I.
Definitely recommended it tohim.
Right.
Um, because he's in a positionof influencing and, and leading
young people who are trying tomake sense of the world and what
(06:12):
their place is in it.
Mm-hmm.
And who are grappling with a lotof kind of big questions about
the future.
So absolutely.
I recommended it to him.
I kinda struggled to recommendit to other people.
I read passages to my husband,but I wouldn't outright like
recommend it wholesale toanyone.
(06:33):
Right.
'cause I think it would just bekind of lost on them.
Like it, they wouldn't reallysee the point.
I think the appeal is to See thepers, the different perspectives
she was talking about, mm-hmm.
Her perspectives on what'shappening in the world.
I think that's very kind ofuniversally interesting.
But like I said, it's like thekind of the call to action,
(06:53):
like, right.
The contribution piece I thinkwould be kind of just because,
interesting, like we're stillkind of in this insular, We're
just kind of trying to protectourselves a bit.
We're kind of in thisself-protective mode where we're
just like, world is going alittle nuts, and we're trying to
kind of insulate ourselves fromthat instead of in the mindset
(07:15):
of, okay, how can we serve inthis capacity or be islands of
sanity to those around us?
So for me it was like a it's apersonal growth call to action.
Like how can I.
Grow and be in a position towhere I can be an island of
sanity, which is a term she usedisn't part of her call to action
(07:35):
and so it just kind of made meaware of the gap between where I
am personally and where I wouldneed to be in order to
contribute in the way that sheis.
Calling people too, right?
Yeah, it's interesting'cause Imean, of course like I guess I'm
in a leadership role, right?
So for me, right, that is not athing that sort of occurred to
(07:56):
me.
And this leads to, and, and wehave talked about this and we've
talked about this on the team.
I want us to do another podcaston what is leadership.
Sure.
'cause a lot of people don'tidentify as leaders who actually
are leaders.
They just don't mm-hmm.
Know what to recognize it.
So that's a whole separateconversation that we will not
dive into here.
(08:17):
Um, but I, I find it interestingso I think like that is a
critical.
Question though, which is why Iwanna do whole podcast on it.
Mm-hmm.
Because I see that theme risingover and over and over again.
Mm-hmm.
in lots of different facets.
but back to having this bookfeel sort of like a, I don't
(08:37):
know, like an enlightening tosort of where you are, where
things are and where you mightwant to be, do you.
Feel like it could do that forother people too.
To just sort of be like, I'm nota leader, but I get what she's
saying and I want to, I want tobe able to take action.
(09:00):
Mm-hmm.
So something's gotta change inorder for me to come back to
this book in a year and mm-hmm.
Or you know what I mean?
Like do you think Yeah.
Or do you think it's just Onaverage too, too overwhelming
for, so my take on it is that Ithink this book is amazing.
Mm-hmm.
And it definitely mm-hmm.
made me feel not alone.
(09:21):
Yes.
And not crazy in my Yes.
Dark cynicism that I lived inmm-hmm.
For a very long time.
And, and it sort of validatedall of that.
And then gave me this thread ofhope that I previously had not
been able to see in that mm-hmm.
(09:42):
Mess, you know?
Mm-hmm.
but I agree that recommending itis I would definitely recommend
it'cause I, I find it just areally fascinating book.
And also someone needs to beprepared to be overwhelmed,
like, yeah.
The first time I read this book,I felt dumped into the deep end.
(10:06):
Yeah.
like it, it's very overwhelming.
there's like a lot ofinformation, a lot of it kind of
coming at you, and I find it,I'd be like, I, wow, this is a
really good point.
And then, you know, three pageslater, oh my gosh, this is a
really good point.
And I would forget the otherpoint because I was yeah, I was
just being.
(10:28):
But all of this new reallyinteresting stuff and my brain
just sort of couldn't keep up.
And then on this, mm-hmm.
Second, read through having anidea of what was going on.
Mm-hmm.
And having been book before, Icould pace myself better and
sort of absorb the things that Iwanted to focus on better.
(10:48):
Mm-hmm.
So recommending it to someone,but also maybe having the caveat
of just don't.
Get overwhelmed with the wholething.
Take the bits that you want fromit and then maybe come back to
it again at a, yeah, at a laterpoint.
'cause it's, it's a lot.
It's, it's a definitely a hugedump of information and
(11:09):
perspective and new ways ofthinking and, it can be a little
tiring, I think that.
I'm glad that I read it all theway through, and I felt those
feelings of overwhelm andvalidation as well.
I would like to read it again,but in, in more of a kind of a
devotional kind of journal sortof a way.
(11:32):
Mm-hmm.
Like take one, ES read, it'sbasically a series of essays.
Mm-hmm.
And and read one essay at atime.
And do and write, writesomething, you know?
Right.
Mm-hmm.
Like basically journal throughit, right.
Absorb, absorb whatever washappening there.
Yeah.
Yeah.
she does, I mean, she doesrecommend doing such a thing,
(11:54):
you know, like she does, shedoes prepare you, you know,
she's like, this is going to beoverwhelming.
You should take your time.
That's why there are imagesthrough all of those things are,
she's aware.
Totally of, of how ooverwhelming it is.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
So I, I feel like it's, it's agood book to spend some time
(12:14):
with and to study.
Mm-hmm.
And if it's not this kind offast food, quick read sort of a
book.
It's a good study group book.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Over, yeah.
Over, you know, a couple months.
Yeah.
Of like really taking your timeto read, think, write, talk
about it.
Mm-hmm.
(12:34):
Sort of absorb that thing andthen move on to the next.
Absolutely.
I feel like that would actuallybe a really cool mm-hmm.
Cool process, uh, to do withthis book in particular.
I absolutely agree.
I would definitely recommend itas a study group discussion
book.
I think you, it's.
Hmm, this gives, definitelygives me an idea to try and
(12:58):
start something like this.
'cause I think it would be a, afun way to get through this
book.
Fun.
Mm-hmm.
It, yeah.
do you, so you were saying interms of the call to action
didn't resonate as well'causeyou weren't, you're like, where,
how, where, how, what?
And then, so I'm just curious,is there a takeaway from, for
you, From the book or an, anaction you do wanna take or a
(13:22):
thing that you were like, I'lltake this one thing from it and
sort of carry forward with thisfor a little while, kind of a
thing.
Is there anything like that thatcame out of it for you?
Sure.
I think that the, the thing Itook away from it was that
there's an alternative to thisfeeling of being, that you're
being swept along this currentof life.
(13:42):
At a, you know, I did a lot ofwhitewater rafting in my youth.
Mm-hmm.
And it feels like that's howlife feels for me right now.
And it's felt like that for along time, where I'm just being
swept along and you're justdoing your best to avoid
obstacles and stay in the boatand when you fall out of the
raft, getting back into it asquickly as possible.
(14:03):
So that's how, that's thefeeling I have in this kind of
anxiety, you know, kind of.
Thrilling anxiety of survival,you know?
Mm-hmm.
And that's kind of lessening asyou know, things have kind of
calmed down in my mind anyway.
(14:24):
Mm-hmm.
and so just the alternativebeing to be an island of sanity
and to kind of yeah.
That alternative is like acomplete contrast to mm-hmm.
This feeling of being sweptalong a river.
So, mm-hmm.
I find that it's important forme to have people who were those
(14:46):
islands and so like I see thebenefit of it and how much it's
helped me.
And so To do that in turn forother people is a real, it's a,
it's a real challenge.
I think that the, the reason whythe call to action is hard for
me to relate to.
It's, it's not so much that it'shard for me to relate to.
(15:08):
It's just, it's such achallenging prospect to think
about because I still feel likeI'm on the needful end of that,
where it's something that I needin my life.
Mm-hmm.
And to turn around and be thatfor someone else is that.
That seems like a no, uh, goodthing to do, whether or not I,
you know, and really hard to do,and the challenge and hard to
(15:29):
do.
And so the challenge is, sheeven says this, like, we need
stable people to be islands ofsanity.
And I'm not trying to say I'munstable, but it feels like, I
do feel like mm-hmm.
My, you know, that there is a,a, a measure of instability.
And so the, the reason why thecall to action is hard for me is
(15:51):
because.
It's such a challenge to thinkabout.
It's just, it's not how I'vethought of myself or how I can
contribute.
So it's just a real wake up calland it's, it's a, it's a, it's
something that I am gonnacontinue to think about.
I do plan on rereading this andgoing through it a little more
(16:11):
slowly and doing some writingalong with it, some journaling.
Mm-hmm.
it'd be great to do a discussiongroup with it too.
And, you know, yeah.
Have people to talk about itwith because it's just, there's
just this gap.
So the takeaway is yes, there'san alternative to feeling kind
of swept along the insanity ofthis world and that you can
(16:33):
actually be, I.
An island of sanity.
You can be an advocate for otherpeople and you can, you can
serve in, in a world that iskind of crumbling around you.
Right.
So that's kind of a heady callto action actually.
It is, yeah.
For sure.
and I would say like thedefinitely there's essentially
(16:57):
this, this.
Idea of, of creating islands of,of sanity as mm-hmm.
The world crumbles around us.
And my take on that because thatis like an overwhelming
individual task.
My take on that is an island isnot a person, right?
(17:18):
An island is a community ofpeople who are helping each
other.
Do this hard work.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
So that it's not, I have tobecome this like island of
sanity that others can thenattach to.
But it's more like, can, can twoor three of us hold onto each
other Right.
(17:39):
And help anchor each othermm-hmm.
And help build each other up.
Yeah.
You know, and, and like that.
And like, I think that's where,for me, that's really.
What the community part of thisis that she's speaking of is
like mm-hmm.
You're not gonna do this alone.
(17:59):
Yeah.
And how do we, you know, providethis?
But like, you know, nobody'sperfect.
Nobody's gonna be able to bethis perfect island of sanity
themselves.
But if you have multiple peoplewho are working together to
create this island of sanity,you don't have to hold it up a
hundred percent of the time allby yourself.
and, and support everybody.
Then you can like get tired andothers will support you.
(18:22):
Right.
And pass it around, you know?
yeah.
That does sound a a lot moreappealing.
Trying to transform myself intosome sort of magical superhero
beacon of foundation doesn'tseem possible.
Totally.
Yeah.
I think my takeaway again,beyond sort of what you're
saying, like this, this idea of.
(18:44):
It's all going to hell in a handbasket, but here is something
that you can still do that ismm-hmm.
That is meaningful in the midstof that.
And that's such a, it was sucha, a light that came into my
life.
and so that is just a wonderfultakeaway from the book period.
In terms of more practicalaspects of it, I guess the
(19:07):
whole, like she has like, youknow, chapters and she works
soon, but she starts offessentially talking about
identity and then perception andall of the various ways that, we
identify and that you have tohave this permeable barrier.
So you have to have a barrier,you have to have an identity,
but it has to be permeable toinformation in order to survive.
(19:28):
Yeah.
That's like sort of the thrustof a lot of her like scientific,
uh, social stuff.
Mm-hmm.
It just really made me this timereading and it really made me
stop and think about whatidentity is.
and how do you identify anisland of sanity?
How do you keep that identityhealthy?
(19:51):
Right.
You know?
And of course, you know, I mean,I think about this in terms of
my whole life.
Also specifically here.
Talking about it with, with youand reading in the context of
this podcast.
Mm-hmm.
I think about it at work, right?
Like, we have this team or thistiny little company and we have
an identity and we, we arebuilding our own island of
(20:13):
sanity in mm-hmm.
In this world right now.
So what does that actually looklike in me in terms of what
she's talking about?
Mm-hmm.
Um, with identity and perceptionand This permeability and you
know, information is not data.
Like there, there, those are twodifferent things.
And so any, anyway, for me, I'mlike, huh, this is something I
(20:34):
really wanna think about withinspecific context of identity in
my life.
And you know, we have anupcoming retreat in about a
month or so, and I'm like, I, Iwant us to sit down and talk
about our identity Yeah.
As a, as a group and.
You know, what we're doing andhow we are learning and how are
(20:56):
we surviving and how do we, howdo we see that happening?
And just bringing it toconsciousness.
yeah.
Instead of, I mean, we have ourvalues listed and we have our
mission and our vision, butthat's part of identity, but
that's not all of it.
And I feel like it's a, mm-hmm.
I think it's a good thing toexplore in multiple places,
like, you know, within yourfamily, within your, you know,
(21:17):
various groups.
Mm-hmm.
So that's one of the big thingsI took out of this reading of it
was, Hmm, really just sort ofstopping and taking a step back
and really thinking about thisidentity and, and what is an
island of sanity from thatperspective that she actually
raises in the book.
So yeah, that's, mm-hmm.
That's what's kicking in my headthese days.
(21:38):
Really good.
Yeah.
We'll be showing up at the teamretreat in a few weeks.
I look forward to that.
Yeah.
I guess we're, we're alreadysort of running down on time.
I mean, we could launch into thewhole thing about the progress
trap and technology, but I thinkthat's gonna take a lot longer
(21:59):
than the time that we have leftthis podcast.
Yeah, it's, so that could be aninteresting, potentially an
interesting future podcastmaybe.
but so, Maybe we can just wrapup with sort of, do you have any
other sort of last thoughts or,anything that we might have
missed talking about points thatyou wanted to, to raise?
(22:21):
I was just remembering one ofthe, the other kind of main
things that I thought was reallyhelpful about this book was the
different ways and differentperspectives in which that.
That she provides help, help youto accept reality for what it
is.
Hmm.
To not be sugarcoating in.
And she, you know, has thislittle thing on Hopium.
(22:43):
And as an optimist myself, likea lot of who really had my
optimism dismantled in the pastfew years, it was, I think it's
a really important.
Thing to, especially in theworld of generative AI and all
of the things, and all of themisinformation and
(23:04):
disinformation, and she talksabout that in the book as well,
and all the propaganda andeverything, how.
How challenging it is to discernreality and Oh yeah.
To discern truth, and it's sohard and it's getting, it's
going to get harder.
It's really chaotic andintentionally made difficult,
(23:29):
it's not even subtle.
It's like fun for people now tolike distort reality, to mess
with you.
It's like entertainment messwith, yeah.
Mm-hmm.
So that was a really important,that was one of those validating
things like, yeah, it is hard tofigure out what is reality and
what is the truth.
And it's very difficult andthere's a lot of different
(23:52):
disciplines out there.
Mm-hmm.
you know, history, science, youknow, many different things.
That can contribute to helpingus understand how we're
perceiving the world and howthose lenses affect our
perception.
And just being aware of what,how you're perceiving things so
(24:12):
that you can step outside thatgetting even more perspective,
get perspective on yourperspective was really kind of
meta, you know, to reallyunderstand how it is that you're
taking in the world.
And.
Question that, so that you canbe a better, so that you can
(24:32):
better understand the actualreality and to not feel like, to
be, to be able to contend withthat and just accept it instead
of sugarcoating it or anythingelse, like mm-hmm.
Trying to believe that it'sgoing to be somewhat different
and, and I, that reallyresonated with me and it was
(24:55):
something that I felt wascritical during the last few
years especially with, with thepandemic, is understanding
reality like, Yes, this isreality and yes, it's this bad
and this is what, how we need torespond and how we need to
support each other.
So in that sense, I absolutely,I think that's what she's
saying.
Mm-hmm.
Is we need to understand realityand all of its truth and all of
(25:18):
its harshness and thus this ishow we need to support each
other and Right.
And respond.
But don't pretend this isn'thappening and then behave as if
it isn't happening.
Yeah.
Right.
That's.
Yeah, that's where theconspiracy theories, theories
and the, and the communitiesthat are just kind of living
outside of reality in their ownbubbles.
(25:39):
That's how those are bornbecause they're not accepting
reality.
So, yeah.
Yeah.
I would recommend this book ifmm-hmm.
Especially if you can findsomeone to discuss it with.
Mm-hmm.
And if you can read it withsomeone or like, I'm going to do
Spend some time with it and bejournaling through it, so
mm-hmm.
understanding that as for anaudience of leaders, but you
(26:00):
don't necessarily like for me.
Mm-hmm.
Like, maybe I just am not, maybeI'm a leader and I just don't
even know it, you know?
Oh, and yeah.
Just not to like, Spoilers, butyou are.
So, but we'll talk about that onanother podcast.
We'll talk about that later.
Yeah.
Because everybody, everybody onthis team who's been on this
podcast needs to have thisconversation apparently again,
(26:21):
but yes.
Yeah.
Anyway.
Yeah.
Cool.
And I would say for anybodywho's listening to this podcast,
if you are curious about thisbook or if you've read this book
and got completely overwhelmedby it, if you want to have.
Some kind of discussion or studypartner or group mm-hmm.
Or something like that.
Reach out to us and let us know,like we are, yeah.
(26:42):
We are down for that.
And for sure, I would love tohave other people read this book
and talk about it and try toYes.
Muddle through it together, so.
Mm-hmm.
Anyway, if you're listening andyou're interested, drop us a
line and and we will, we willdefinitely respond and, and
mm-hmm.
Help with open arms.
(27:03):
Well thank you very much ma'am.
Thanks for reading it.
Thanks for, for getting throughit.
Yeah.
And and the conversation and youknow, obviously there will be
more conversing on this one forsure.
absolutely.
Coming soon.
Hey, so thanks for listening andlet us know if you have
questions, comments, orsuggestions for what you'd like
to hear more about.
(27:25):
You can find all of the variousways to reach us on our website
at osiolabs.com.
That's O S I O L A B S.com.
Also, please make sure tosubscribe to the podcast on your
podcast provider of choice.
We'll catch you on the nextepisode.
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