June 13, 2023 • 25 mins
A lot of classic business culture uses the lexicon of competitive conflict; a lot of terms derive from war and sports. These are considered classic examples of leadership and the analogies and metaphors are thick. So it’s interesting to read Abby Wambach’s Wolfpack, where she takes lessons learned from the top echelons of competitive soccer to turn classic leadership rules on their heads. In this episode Blake and I share our takes on the book.
Here are her 8 rules, in summary:
- Create your own path.
- Be grateful for what you have AND demand what you deserve.
- Lead now — from wherever you are.
- Failure means you’re finally IN the game.
- Be FOR each other.
- Believe in yourself. Demand the ball.
- Lead with humanity. Cultivate leaders.
- You’re not alone. You’ve got your Pack.
You can get in touch with us to ask questions, leave comments, or provide suggestions on our website, https://osiolabs.com/.
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Episode Transcript
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Addi (00:00):
Hey there.
This is Addison Berry, andyou're listening to the Osio
Labs podcast.
The show that explores thequestion, how can we create
sustainable businesses that carefor people and make the world a
better place?
On today's episode, I'm joinedby my colleague Blake Hall.
And this is episode numberthree, which will be a book chat
(00:20):
about Wolfpack by Abby Wambach.
So a lot of classic businessculture uses the lexicon of
competitive conflict.
A lot of terms derived from warand sports.
These are considered classicexamples of leadership.
And the analogies and metaphorsare really thick from those.
(00:41):
So it's interesting to read AbbyWambach's Wolfpack, where she
takes lessons learned from thetop echelons of competitive
soccer to turn classicleadership rules on their heads.
Here are her eight rules forleadership that she has in
Wolfpack, just to summarize thatbefore we dive into it.
One (01:00):
create your own path.
Two (01:03):
be grateful for what you have and demand what you
deserve.
Three (01:08):
lead now from wherever you are.
Four (01:12):
failure means you're finally in the game.
Five (01:17):
be for each other.
Six (01:21):
believe in yourself, demand the ball.
Seven (01:24):
lead with humanity.
Cultivate leaders.
Eight (01:29):
you're not alone.
You've got your pack.
So, to start off, before we getinto the details of all the
things, what was your overallimpression of the book and would
you recommend it or not?
Blake (01:47):
I would say my overall impression was positive.
I think I heard about the bookeither from you mentioning it
or, um, my partner's a big fanof the We can Do Hard Things
podcast with Glennon, Abby'spartner.
Mm-hmm.
So might have been there aswell, but.
Or maybe that just gave mepermission to order it right
(02:08):
away.
I'm not sure.
I can't remember how that playedout.
It's a short, quick read, whichI thought was great.
You know, I can kind of cruisethrough it in an hour pretty
comfortably, which makes it easyto revisit too, which is kind of
nice.
We were both actually such a bigfan of it that when we were
searching to buy it, we noticedthat there's a, a kids' version,
(02:30):
so we picked that up for ourdaughter right away.
I don't think she's read itquite- fair enough- all the way
through.
I found her bookmark in therethe other day when I was sort of
comparing the two.
I think it's full of a bunch ofreally high level great lessons
and, and good reminders.
I'm always a little bit gun shyabout leadership books in
(02:51):
general because they feel kindof so high level and, and
lacking in like actionable tasksthat, especially giving one to
like a 10 year old feels sort ofweird.
But I feel like this has a, abunch of really good lessons and
reminders for just everyday lifetoo, beyond just leadership.
(03:13):
And I like the way that she sortof recasts leadership as it's
something that everybody canbring to the table and a very
actionable process and not likesomething that someone else has
to give to you.
It's something that you can kindof give to the world.
Addi (03:28):
Yeah.
I liked it too.
I also liked that it was fast.
Like you said, we could probablylike read the entire book on a
podcast episode.
And you know, I have a similarthing with leadership books,
because I often feel like I needto read and take a lot of notes
and then figure out how I'mgonna implement the new things
I'm learning and all of that.
And this is really kind of not,not even that, it's just like
(03:51):
you need to think about whatleadership means differently.
Here's some points to thinkabout differently.
Mm-hmm.
And it's such a short, easy readthat you can kind of like pick
it up and be like, oh yeah, thatthing, and then go about your
day.
It's not like a, a tome that youhave to like weed through to
figure out what she's trying tosay.
Mm-hmm.
(04:11):
You know, so, yeah.
Yeah.
So I definitely, I wouldrecommend it for sure if nothing
else, because it's a really fastread and you can just read
through and if you get somethingfrom it, great.
And if you don't, you haven'twasted hours of your life.
So I feel like that's, that's a,a big advantage, but I do think
(04:31):
that a lot of people could takeaway some positive stuff from
it, for sure.
Blake (04:36):
Yeah, absolutely.
I also kind of find myselfgravitating a bit towards, books
of this type that are brokendown, sort of, you know, she has
these kind of eight rules and,books that are broken down in
that way, so you can sort oflike, Journal about one of the
rules in a particular month or,you know, revisit one during a
(04:58):
particular day and sort of justgive it some time to sort of
stew and chew on and think abouthow that rule applies to you and
impacts your life and all thatsort of thing.
When a book is structured thatway, it sort of makes it easier
for me to think about in mm-hmm.
In ways that are a little moreactionable than.
(05:20):
Like you're saying, if you haveto sort of stop and take notes
and look up sources and, youknow, consider how you might go
about implementing some sort ofmarketing project or, or
whatever.
Right.
This is sort of the opposite ofthat, which is, is great.
Addi (05:36):
So what would you say like your biggest takeaway is?
Or like what's, what do youthink?
Or I guess maybe even, like,what do you think her, her
message is like, what is sheactually saying?
Blake (05:50):
I think my biggest takeaway is that, you know,
growing up sort of a, aMidwestern white male, a lot of
the things you're taught aboutleadership and sort of business
and, and competing are veryindividual.
So then when you think aboutleadership, it's sort of at odds
(06:12):
with a lot of the other likehyper-competitive things that
you're taught to sort of getahead and, and succeed.
And, I love that, that hermessage is, is more kind of
nurturing and collaborative and,I like the concept of, of both
the Wolf and the Wolf Packbecause I feel like.
(06:33):
You, you still need to becompetitive and you still need
to sort of be the best personthat you can be.
But you also need the support ofa community of some sort and
your team and the people aroundyou.
And cultivating that andembracing that is just as
important to your success assort of being your own
(06:54):
individual rockstar.
Mm-hmm.
And I think that's a, a reallygood reminder that's not present
in a lot of the sort ofhistorically celebrated
leadership books.
Addi (07:05):
For me, I ended up sort of like taking away two main
messages and, to speak tobackground from, from my side,
right?
So I'm a, a woman leader, soshe, this book is specifically
written to me.
I'm also queer, and she's queeras well and brings that up in
(07:26):
the book.
And so, I'm kind of like herprimary target audience that
she's, she's speaking to in thebook for sure.
But one of the, what I took awaywas sort of two messages of
basically demand more of theworld, expect more of of the
world.
Don't let the world tell you howit's supposed to be, and to
(07:50):
support each other, to create apack, and to work as a team, to
get the world to give into ourdemands, as it were.
Instead of trying to do thatalone.
Or trying to do it the old way,like really, I mean, and she
specifically says in the book,right?
She's taking like, what, what isthe old rule?
And then this is her new rule,which is to don't play by the
(08:12):
old rules, do things differentlyif you wanna change the world.
And that's, I mean if, ifnothing else is just heartening
to hear, cuz that's how I feeland I feel like it's a struggle
and I feel like people.
Here I'm a CEO of a company andthey have sudden expectations
about who I am and how I behavein the world and it's very
(08:35):
frustrating to me.
And so it's like I would like topersonally change that message
because I am not that way.
I'm not that, you know, ubercompetitive, type A personality,
workaholic, take on the worldrockstar kind of thing.
But people just get this likeweird impression of you as soon
as you say like the letters, CEOor whatever capacity of official
(08:58):
authority.
So I just also really enjoy likethe fact that, I mean, and she's
not the only person saying thesethings, so this is a huge thing
that's happening, uh but it'sjust great to read it, to see
it, to hear that message overand over again because it's
really easy to get kind of stuckin the old systems of thinking,
(09:22):
or be surrounded by them.
And so it's just heartening tobe like, oh yeah, all right.
I'm not alone.
I'm not alone.
There is a wolf pack, right?
There are a whole lot of peoplelike this who think this way.
Yeah, absolutely.
Good to remember that.
Blake (09:37):
Right.
Well, and even, even on a,another individual level, I
think like her second rule issort of be grateful for what you
have, but also demand what youdeserve.
And I think that's mm-hmm.
That speaks a lot to sort ofwhat you're talking about is
like, trying to make thesechanges in the world doesn't
mean that you're not also, youknow, thankful that that-mm-hmm-
(09:59):
you've gotten to be a CEO.
Like, balancing those two thingsis, is something that isn't
always encouraged or accepted.
Like a lot of times I feel likepeople, especially in the, in
the larger media, when they comeout and say that they're in
favor of some sort of socialchange or social justice, it's
sort of like, well, you shouldbe grateful for, you know, X, Y,
(10:22):
or Z that's happened recently.
And it's like, well, yes, butlike, that's not enough still,
you know?
Mm-hmm.
There's sort of, it's it's okayto both, like celebrate you
know, where we are and, and whatwe have now, but also still
expect things to be better and,and keep pushing forward for
(10:43):
more.
And I think that's, especiallyfor somebody like me, that's,
that's a really good messagetoo, because it sort of feels
like, you know, sometimes likethe unrelenting push towards
progress can just feel like younever get anywhere, right?
Yeah.
It's kind of like, it's kind oflike working with with code on
a, on a website, it's likeyou're constantly squashing new
(11:07):
bugs that you find or trying toimprove performance or, you
know, all these things.
It sort of feels like your jobis never done, and that can feel
kind of disheartening at times,but realizing that you can take
a step back and, and sort ofhold the two truths of, you
know, things are going reallywell and I've worked really hard
and there's still more to do.
(11:28):
Mm-hmm.
To improve things.
Like that's a, that's a reallygood reminder.
Yeah.
As well, I think.
Addi (11:35):
It's hard to hold both of those at the same time.
Absolutely.
But, but yeah, it's, uh, it's agood practice.
It's a good thing to, topractice doing for sure.
Mm-hmm.
So singing lots of praises.
Are there any drawbacks for you?
Not that there have to be, butI'm just curious.
Blake (11:56):
I think the one thing I would say is just mostly because
the book is so short, there's,there's kind of a lack of real
actionable mm-hmm.
Steps you can take.
But I also sort of feel likeit's because, at least when I
read the book, it felt veryindividually targeted and, and
(12:17):
sort of like, this is how youwork on yourself to improve your
leadership skills.
So it's more, it's harder to dothat sort of thing in a book
like that, that's mm-hmm.
That's a little more personaland about, you know, bringing
your values for the rest of yourlife, your work life in
particular.
So, like, I understand whythat's a shortcoming, but I
(12:41):
would still say, you know, it'dbe great if there was some sort
of follow up or online communitywhere people were kind of
talking about how to go aboutimplementing these things, and
there's a very good chance thatsomething like that exists and
I'm just unaware of it orignorant of it, but mm-hmm.
I would say if somebody justgrabs the book and that's their
(13:01):
only experience with theseconcepts, that would be my
biggest kind of drawback.
Addi (13:07):
Yeah.
You know, I looked, when I,after I read it, I did look to
see if there was like some kindof Wolfpack community, and it
seems like maybe there was somediscussion about that or
something like that happened,but it doesn't seem to be a
thing that's like out there.
Cuz that was definitely one ofthe things for me too, is it's
like this is all good and well.
And like in a sense, I have manypacks, you know, I have my
(13:30):
family and I have my friends andI have my team here at work and
we are packs like we, we dostick together and support each
other.
But I definitely feel like, howdo I, how do I find the larger
packs?
How do I find this, this largermovement of the way that people
(13:51):
are thinking and being a, CEO orjust any kind of management that
is sort of set apart in some waywith levels of authority, I
guess.
It does feel lonely sometimes inits own way and it's
interesting.
Like I, I've, I go through lotsof different ways of trying to
(14:12):
find other people.
A part of doing this podcast isfor me to, to try and find other
people who think the way that wethink, so that I can sort of
grow this, this pack, that wehave.
Mm-hmm.
But I, I would've liked in thebook to have more like, Finding
a pack or defining a pack andlike how do you, how do you grow
that?
How do you do that exactly?
(14:34):
Mm-hmm.
Because I think a lot of peoplecan read this and be like, this
is great, but I feel reallyalone because I'm reading this
book, but no one around me isreading this book or, or cares.
And so how do I find the otherpeople who are doing that?
So I feel like that would'vebeen.
Yeah.
Like a, yeah, absolutely a nextstep from reading the book is
like, okay, now go connect withother people who just read this
(14:56):
book too and, and wanna explorethis, so.
Mm-hmm.
And then I think the other I,this isn't really a drawback
actually, I think this is justmore of a observation, which is,
like I said earlier, like she,Abby is definitely speaking to
me, a queer woman in businessleadership.
And so a lot of, you know,things in there resonated, but
(15:18):
you know, we're still whitewomen.
We still have other, otherlevels of privilege and so I'm
like, I guess I'm more curiouslike how other underrepresented
minorities would respond to theway that she's laying things out
in the book.
You know, the assumption is thatyou just sort of take these
concepts and apply, but I alsoam sort of aware of the
(15:39):
privilege from the perspectivethat the book is also written
in.
Mm-hmm.
So, yeah, not exactly adrawback, but more of a
curiosity or a question, right.
For how that, how that wouldplay out out there.
Blake (15:54):
Yeah.
I mean, in terms of like gaininglarger acceptance among sort of
the status quo system.
Like we can't all be the women'snational soccer team in terms of
Right.
You know, global success andreach and, and sort of you know,
work harder to get a bunch ofattention to your cause isn't
always the greatest like,actionable step, right.
(16:16):
For things like this, that's forsure.
Addi (16:18):
Yeah.
So I also have a question tocome back to.
You said that there was a kidsversion.
I'm curious, like is there, isit very different?
Like how is it different?
Obviously it must be differentin some way.
Yeah,
Blake (16:31):
it's, it's actually not all that different.
Mm-hmm.
A lot of the references, towomen in particular are sort of
just rewritten as young people.
Okay.
Which I find kind ofinteresting, but, I mean, it
also sort of speaks to thenature of the book itself.
It's sort of the quick breezyread and it's not mm-hmm.
It's not overly complicated likeit is, it is, young adult
(16:52):
friendly, even in its originalform, I would say.
Right.
So I was actually kind ofsurprised by that a little bit.
Like, I sort of, I thought theremight be, you know, more, I hate
to say like dumbing down, but,you know, simplification or
whatever, but the overallmessage of the book really is
pretty straightforward andsimple and the rules themselves
(17:13):
are, are young, adult friendlymm-hmm as they are.
So, it's not like it's, youknow, filled with pictures or
Right.
Or you know, a bunch ofprofanity cleaned up or anything
like that.
Like it's, it's basically thesame book with a few different
word choices here and there.
Which is great.
I mean, I think it, it sort ofspeaks to the simplicity of the
(17:37):
ideas, which doesn't meanthey're not powerful, that
they're just, you know,distilling something to, to that
level of, you know, a, a kid canunderstand it is often a pretty
hard thing to do, so, yeah.
Huh.
Addi (17:53):
Interesting.
Yeah, I guess I was likeimagining yeah, more pictures
and like, I don't know, storiesand scenarios for kids in, you
know, so instead of talkingabout, even, even high level
team sports and stuff like that,but you know, it's like being in
homeroom and school or I don'tknow, you know, we're like, I
whatever, like the Girl Scouts,I don't know, but so it was
(18:15):
just, uh, anyway.
Yeah.
Interesting.
Cool.
But it, it's also just good toknow that that version of the
book is out there too.
All right.
I think we should probably wrapit up, but I wanna wrap it up
with, did any of the eight rulesstand out to you more than
others, just like personallyresonating for you?
Blake (18:38):
I mean, I think they're all really good and applicable,
which is a total cop out answer.
It's fair enough though, but I,I have to pick two.
One of them we talked aboutalready quite a bit and it was
rule number two.
Mm-hmm.
Which is be grateful for whatyou have and demand what you
deserve.
Cuz I feel like that's a reallyimportant ongoing practice for
(18:58):
everybody.
And it sort of seems likeyounger generations are, are
doing a better job of that than,than mm-hmm.
Some of us who aren't so younganymore, which is great to see,
but it, it also has a lot ofbacklash too.
So it's, it's a hard thing to doand continue to implement.
But the other one, that's areally good reminder for me is
(19:20):
number four, failure meansyou're finally in the game and
basically like, instead of beingafraid of your failures, you
need to lean into them and sortof realize that those are your
learning moments.
You know, there's, there's a tonof old and tired cliches about,
you know, as long as you getback up, you, you haven't really
failed and, and those sorts ofthings.
(19:40):
But, I think that's a, that's areally great business lesson
because mm-hmm.
You know, li life in general isjust full of failure.
And if you can learn how to takethose things in stride and
actually learn from them and,and not be afraid of failing, I
think is sort of the biggestthing.
Because that fear can really beparalyzing and controlling and
(20:02):
annoying to deal with.
Yes.
So, that's another good kind ofongoing practice I took away.
Addi (20:09):
Yeah.
And I, I mean, I would say bothpersonally and from a business
perspective, like one of theharder things that I continue to
work on is, is leaning intofailure.
Not even It's okay, but likeit's actually expected and
needed and like, that's justlike a whole other level of
(20:31):
dealing with failure that isreally difficult for me.
But that's so fruitful and italso just makes life a lot less
stressful if you can approach itthat way.
Yep.
But yeah, hard to, hard toimplement on the regular, for
sure.
So same for me as I was like,oh, these are all great and
applicable in their own way.
(20:52):
And I actually had more than onewritten down at first, and then
I was like, Nope, let's justlike cut it.
Let's just do it.
Let's go to the one.
So I did only pick one at theend, which is, rule five be for
each other.
And this like really resonatesfor me, sort of like where I am,
you know?
So in that rule she's talkingabout like celebrating the
(21:13):
success of others and when youare successful, celebrating the
people who helped you make thatsuccess happen.
But in that chapter where she'stalking about like, she really
talks about sort of this cultureof scarcity and that everybody's
gotta get their piece of thepie.
And that means, you know, ifsomebody else gets a piece of
(21:34):
pie, you're not gonna get any,that there's a finite amount of
success available, of happiness.
And that's something that likepersonally I've been sort of
deep into lately in my life is,is trying to sort of take down
the scaffolding of scarcity thatwe've been taught.
And being able to really justopen up to sort of the abundance
(21:57):
of life, and that there's notlike a finite amount of love
available in the world.
There's not a finite amount ofjoy, of, of caring for people
like the, it just doesn't workthat way.
But we've been taught to, tobelieve that in so many aspects
of things.
Mm-hmm.
So that one really resonated forme because I was like, yep,
(22:18):
that's, that's a tough one andit colors like subtly colors, so
many ways of interacting in theworld.
And I wanna work on that more,kind of break free from that.
So, but yeah, they're all,they're all good rules.
I think they're good littlereminders, little things you
(22:39):
could write on a sticky note fora week, like you said actually
like, um, I like the idea oflike journaling each of them.
And like another, there'sanother book which is, uh, Brene
Brown I think The Gifts ofImperfection does a similar
thing where it's sort of likeeach chapter's about a, a thing.
And I actually was in like alittle book group and we, we
each, each week we would readone and journal about it and
(23:02):
then get together and talk aboutit.
And it was actually, it was justa nice structure to exploring
and really sitting with theidea.
It's a nice, structure to thebook and it is so sweet and
simple that you can really kindof go where you want with it.
Yep.
Awesome.
Well thanks for sharing yourthoughts and ideas on this one,
(23:23):
cuz this, I would like to domore of these book chats cuz I
read a lot.
It's way more fun to think aboutbooks that I've read with other
people.
Blake (23:33):
Yeah, they're ideas.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Yep.
Sign, sign me up.
Addi (23:38):
Awesome.
Cool.
Well, we will definitely bedoing more of these book chats
in the future.
We have a list of books that I'minterested in reading, so if
other people are gonna readthem.
Sweet.
And for anybody listening to thepodcast, if you have a book that
you think is pretty awesome thatyou would like us to read and do
a podcast on, let us know.
I am open to all kinds of books.
(24:01):
I read a lot.
I actually, my wife was justteasing me about this the other
day, so I looked up on GoodReads last year I read 171 books
last year in 2022, which is morethan three books a week.
I'm like, I don't even know howI do that.
But anyway, I read a lot ofbooks, so we can always put
(24:21):
another on the shelf.
All right, well thanks Blake.
And, I'm sure you're gonna be onanother podcast, so talk to you
again hopefully soon.
I think it'll happen.
I think it'll happen.
Blake (24:33):
Thanks, Addi.
Thanks.
Addi (24:37):
Hey, so thanks for listening and let us know if you
have questions, comments, orsuggestions for what you'd like
to hear more about.
You can find all of the variousways to reach us on our
website@osiolabs.com.
That's O S I O L A B S.com.
(24:57):
Also, please make sure tosubscribe to the podcast on your
podcast provider of choice.
We'll catch you on the nextepisode.
Hey there.
This is Addison Berry, andyou're listening to the Osio
Labs podcast.
The show that explores thequestion, how can we create
sustainable businesses that carefor people and make the world a
better place?
On today's episode, I'm joinedby my colleague Blake Hall.
And this is episode numberthree, which will be a book chat
(00:20):
about Wolfpack by Abby Wambach.
So a lot of classic businessculture uses the lexicon of
competitive conflict.
A lot of terms derived from warand sports.
These are considered classicexamples of leadership.
And the analogies and metaphorsare really thick from those.
(00:41):
So it's interesting to read AbbyWambach's Wolfpack, where she
takes lessons learned from thetop echelons of competitive
soccer to turn classicleadership rules on their heads.
Here are her eight rules forleadership that she has in
Wolfpack, just to summarize thatbefore we dive into it.
One (01:00):
create your own path.
Two (01:03):
be grateful for what you have and demand what you
deserve.
Three (01:08):
lead now from wherever you are.
Four (01:12):
failure means you're finally in the game.
Five (01:17):
be for each other.
Six (01:21):
believe in yourself, demand the ball.
Seven (01:24):
lead with humanity.
Cultivate leaders.
Eight (01:29):
you're not alone.
You've got your pack.
So, to start off, before we getinto the details of all the
things, what was your overallimpression of the book and would
you recommend it or not?
Blake (01:47):
I would say my overall impression was positive.
I think I heard about the bookeither from you mentioning it
or, um, my partner's a big fanof the We can Do Hard Things
podcast with Glennon, Abby'spartner.
Mm-hmm.
So might have been there aswell, but.
Or maybe that just gave mepermission to order it right
(02:08):
away.
I'm not sure.
I can't remember how that playedout.
It's a short, quick read, whichI thought was great.
You know, I can kind of cruisethrough it in an hour pretty
comfortably, which makes it easyto revisit too, which is kind of
nice.
We were both actually such a bigfan of it that when we were
searching to buy it, we noticedthat there's a, a kids' version,
(02:30):
so we picked that up for ourdaughter right away.
I don't think she's read itquite- fair enough- all the way
through.
I found her bookmark in therethe other day when I was sort of
comparing the two.
I think it's full of a bunch ofreally high level great lessons
and, and good reminders.
I'm always a little bit gun shyabout leadership books in
(02:51):
general because they feel kindof so high level and, and
lacking in like actionable tasksthat, especially giving one to
like a 10 year old feels sort ofweird.
But I feel like this has a, abunch of really good lessons and
reminders for just everyday lifetoo, beyond just leadership.
(03:13):
And I like the way that she sortof recasts leadership as it's
something that everybody canbring to the table and a very
actionable process and not likesomething that someone else has
to give to you.
It's something that you can kindof give to the world.
Addi (03:28):
Yeah.
I liked it too.
I also liked that it was fast.
Like you said, we could probablylike read the entire book on a
podcast episode.
And you know, I have a similarthing with leadership books,
because I often feel like I needto read and take a lot of notes
and then figure out how I'mgonna implement the new things
I'm learning and all of that.
And this is really kind of not,not even that, it's just like
(03:51):
you need to think about whatleadership means differently.
Here's some points to thinkabout differently.
Mm-hmm.
And it's such a short, easy readthat you can kind of like pick
it up and be like, oh yeah, thatthing, and then go about your
day.
It's not like a, a tome that youhave to like weed through to
figure out what she's trying tosay.
Mm-hmm.
(04:11):
You know, so, yeah.
Yeah.
So I definitely, I wouldrecommend it for sure if nothing
else, because it's a really fastread and you can just read
through and if you get somethingfrom it, great.
And if you don't, you haven'twasted hours of your life.
So I feel like that's, that's a,a big advantage, but I do think
(04:31):
that a lot of people could takeaway some positive stuff from
it, for sure.
Blake (04:36):
Yeah, absolutely.
I also kind of find myselfgravitating a bit towards, books
of this type that are brokendown, sort of, you know, she has
these kind of eight rules and,books that are broken down in
that way, so you can sort oflike, Journal about one of the
rules in a particular month or,you know, revisit one during a
(04:58):
particular day and sort of justgive it some time to sort of
stew and chew on and think abouthow that rule applies to you and
impacts your life and all thatsort of thing.
When a book is structured thatway, it sort of makes it easier
for me to think about in mm-hmm.
In ways that are a little moreactionable than.
(05:20):
Like you're saying, if you haveto sort of stop and take notes
and look up sources and, youknow, consider how you might go
about implementing some sort ofmarketing project or, or
whatever.
Right.
This is sort of the opposite ofthat, which is, is great.
Addi (05:36):
So what would you say like your biggest takeaway is?
Or like what's, what do youthink?
Or I guess maybe even, like,what do you think her, her
message is like, what is sheactually saying?
Blake (05:50):
I think my biggest takeaway is that, you know,
growing up sort of a, aMidwestern white male, a lot of
the things you're taught aboutleadership and sort of business
and, and competing are veryindividual.
So then when you think aboutleadership, it's sort of at odds
(06:12):
with a lot of the other likehyper-competitive things that
you're taught to sort of getahead and, and succeed.
And, I love that, that hermessage is, is more kind of
nurturing and collaborative and,I like the concept of, of both
the Wolf and the Wolf Packbecause I feel like.
(06:33):
You, you still need to becompetitive and you still need
to sort of be the best personthat you can be.
But you also need the support ofa community of some sort and
your team and the people aroundyou.
And cultivating that andembracing that is just as
important to your success assort of being your own
(06:54):
individual rockstar.
Mm-hmm.
And I think that's a, a reallygood reminder that's not present
in a lot of the sort ofhistorically celebrated
leadership books.
Addi (07:05):
For me, I ended up sort of like taking away two main
messages and, to speak tobackground from, from my side,
right?
So I'm a, a woman leader, soshe, this book is specifically
written to me.
I'm also queer, and she's queeras well and brings that up in
(07:26):
the book.
And so, I'm kind of like herprimary target audience that
she's, she's speaking to in thebook for sure.
But one of the, what I took awaywas sort of two messages of
basically demand more of theworld, expect more of of the
world.
Don't let the world tell you howit's supposed to be, and to
(07:50):
support each other, to create apack, and to work as a team, to
get the world to give into ourdemands, as it were.
Instead of trying to do thatalone.
Or trying to do it the old way,like really, I mean, and she
specifically says in the book,right?
She's taking like, what, what isthe old rule?
And then this is her new rule,which is to don't play by the
(08:12):
old rules, do things differentlyif you wanna change the world.
And that's, I mean if, ifnothing else is just heartening
to hear, cuz that's how I feeland I feel like it's a struggle
and I feel like people.
Here I'm a CEO of a company andthey have sudden expectations
about who I am and how I behavein the world and it's very
(08:35):
frustrating to me.
And so it's like I would like topersonally change that message
because I am not that way.
I'm not that, you know, ubercompetitive, type A personality,
workaholic, take on the worldrockstar kind of thing.
But people just get this likeweird impression of you as soon
as you say like the letters, CEOor whatever capacity of official
(08:58):
authority.
So I just also really enjoy likethe fact that, I mean, and she's
not the only person saying thesethings, so this is a huge thing
that's happening, uh but it'sjust great to read it, to see
it, to hear that message overand over again because it's
really easy to get kind of stuckin the old systems of thinking,
(09:22):
or be surrounded by them.
And so it's just heartening tobe like, oh yeah, all right.
I'm not alone.
I'm not alone.
There is a wolf pack, right?
There are a whole lot of peoplelike this who think this way.
Yeah, absolutely.
Good to remember that.
Blake (09:37):
Right.
Well, and even, even on a,another individual level, I
think like her second rule issort of be grateful for what you
have, but also demand what youdeserve.
And I think that's mm-hmm.
That speaks a lot to sort ofwhat you're talking about is
like, trying to make thesechanges in the world doesn't
mean that you're not also, youknow, thankful that that-mm-hmm-
(09:59):
you've gotten to be a CEO.
Like, balancing those two thingsis, is something that isn't
always encouraged or accepted.
Like a lot of times I feel likepeople, especially in the, in
the larger media, when they comeout and say that they're in
favor of some sort of socialchange or social justice, it's
sort of like, well, you shouldbe grateful for, you know, X, Y,
(10:22):
or Z that's happened recently.
And it's like, well, yes, butlike, that's not enough still,
you know?
Mm-hmm.
There's sort of, it's it's okayto both, like celebrate you
know, where we are and, and whatwe have now, but also still
expect things to be better and,and keep pushing forward for
(10:43):
more.
And I think that's, especiallyfor somebody like me, that's,
that's a really good messagetoo, because it sort of feels
like, you know, sometimes likethe unrelenting push towards
progress can just feel like younever get anywhere, right?
Yeah.
It's kind of like, it's kind oflike working with with code on
a, on a website, it's likeyou're constantly squashing new
(11:07):
bugs that you find or trying toimprove performance or, you
know, all these things.
It sort of feels like your jobis never done, and that can feel
kind of disheartening at times,but realizing that you can take
a step back and, and sort ofhold the two truths of, you
know, things are going reallywell and I've worked really hard
and there's still more to do.
(11:28):
Mm-hmm.
To improve things.
Like that's a, that's a reallygood reminder.
Yeah.
As well, I think.
Addi (11:35):
It's hard to hold both of those at the same time.
Absolutely.
But, but yeah, it's, uh, it's agood practice.
It's a good thing to, topractice doing for sure.
Mm-hmm.
So singing lots of praises.
Are there any drawbacks for you?
Not that there have to be, butI'm just curious.
Blake (11:56):
I think the one thing I would say is just mostly because
the book is so short, there's,there's kind of a lack of real
actionable mm-hmm.
Steps you can take.
But I also sort of feel likeit's because, at least when I
read the book, it felt veryindividually targeted and, and
(12:17):
sort of like, this is how youwork on yourself to improve your
leadership skills.
So it's more, it's harder to dothat sort of thing in a book
like that, that's mm-hmm.
That's a little more personaland about, you know, bringing
your values for the rest of yourlife, your work life in
particular.
So, like, I understand whythat's a shortcoming, but I
(12:41):
would still say, you know, it'dbe great if there was some sort
of follow up or online communitywhere people were kind of
talking about how to go aboutimplementing these things, and
there's a very good chance thatsomething like that exists and
I'm just unaware of it orignorant of it, but mm-hmm.
I would say if somebody justgrabs the book and that's their
(13:01):
only experience with theseconcepts, that would be my
biggest kind of drawback.
Addi (13:07):
Yeah.
You know, I looked, when I,after I read it, I did look to
see if there was like some kindof Wolfpack community, and it
seems like maybe there was somediscussion about that or
something like that happened,but it doesn't seem to be a
thing that's like out there.
Cuz that was definitely one ofthe things for me too, is it's
like this is all good and well.
And like in a sense, I have manypacks, you know, I have my
(13:30):
family and I have my friends andI have my team here at work and
we are packs like we, we dostick together and support each
other.
But I definitely feel like, howdo I, how do I find the larger
packs?
How do I find this, this largermovement of the way that people
(13:51):
are thinking and being a, CEO orjust any kind of management that
is sort of set apart in some waywith levels of authority, I
guess.
It does feel lonely sometimes inits own way and it's
interesting.
Like I, I've, I go through lotsof different ways of trying to
(14:12):
find other people.
A part of doing this podcast isfor me to, to try and find other
people who think the way that wethink, so that I can sort of
grow this, this pack, that wehave.
Mm-hmm.
But I, I would've liked in thebook to have more like, Finding
a pack or defining a pack andlike how do you, how do you grow
that?
How do you do that exactly?
(14:34):
Mm-hmm.
Because I think a lot of peoplecan read this and be like, this
is great, but I feel reallyalone because I'm reading this
book, but no one around me isreading this book or, or cares.
And so how do I find the otherpeople who are doing that?
So I feel like that would'vebeen.
Yeah.
Like a, yeah, absolutely a nextstep from reading the book is
like, okay, now go connect withother people who just read this
(14:56):
book too and, and wanna explorethis, so.
Mm-hmm.
And then I think the other I,this isn't really a drawback
actually, I think this is justmore of a observation, which is,
like I said earlier, like she,Abby is definitely speaking to
me, a queer woman in businessleadership.
And so a lot of, you know,things in there resonated, but
(15:18):
you know, we're still whitewomen.
We still have other, otherlevels of privilege and so I'm
like, I guess I'm more curiouslike how other underrepresented
minorities would respond to theway that she's laying things out
in the book.
You know, the assumption is thatyou just sort of take these
concepts and apply, but I alsoam sort of aware of the
(15:39):
privilege from the perspectivethat the book is also written
in.
Mm-hmm.
So, yeah, not exactly adrawback, but more of a
curiosity or a question, right.
For how that, how that wouldplay out out there.
Blake (15:54):
Yeah.
I mean, in terms of like gaininglarger acceptance among sort of
the status quo system.
Like we can't all be the women'snational soccer team in terms of
Right.
You know, global success andreach and, and sort of you know,
work harder to get a bunch ofattention to your cause isn't
always the greatest like,actionable step, right.
(16:16):
For things like this, that's forsure.
Addi (16:18):
Yeah.
So I also have a question tocome back to.
You said that there was a kidsversion.
I'm curious, like is there, isit very different?
Like how is it different?
Obviously it must be differentin some way.
Yeah,
Blake (16:31):
it's, it's actually not all that different.
Mm-hmm.
A lot of the references, towomen in particular are sort of
just rewritten as young people.
Okay.
Which I find kind ofinteresting, but, I mean, it
also sort of speaks to thenature of the book itself.
It's sort of the quick breezyread and it's not mm-hmm.
It's not overly complicated likeit is, it is, young adult
(16:52):
friendly, even in its originalform, I would say.
Right.
So I was actually kind ofsurprised by that a little bit.
Like, I sort of, I thought theremight be, you know, more, I hate
to say like dumbing down, but,you know, simplification or
whatever, but the overallmessage of the book really is
pretty straightforward andsimple and the rules themselves
(17:13):
are, are young, adult friendlymm-hmm as they are.
So, it's not like it's, youknow, filled with pictures or
Right.
Or you know, a bunch ofprofanity cleaned up or anything
like that.
Like it's, it's basically thesame book with a few different
word choices here and there.
Which is great.
I mean, I think it, it sort ofspeaks to the simplicity of the
(17:37):
ideas, which doesn't meanthey're not powerful, that
they're just, you know,distilling something to, to that
level of, you know, a, a kid canunderstand it is often a pretty
hard thing to do, so, yeah.
Huh.
Addi (17:53):
Interesting.
Yeah, I guess I was likeimagining yeah, more pictures
and like, I don't know, storiesand scenarios for kids in, you
know, so instead of talkingabout, even, even high level
team sports and stuff like that,but you know, it's like being in
homeroom and school or I don'tknow, you know, we're like, I
whatever, like the Girl Scouts,I don't know, but so it was
(18:15):
just, uh, anyway.
Yeah.
Interesting.
Cool.
But it, it's also just good toknow that that version of the
book is out there too.
All right.
I think we should probably wrapit up, but I wanna wrap it up
with, did any of the eight rulesstand out to you more than
others, just like personallyresonating for you?
Blake (18:38):
I mean, I think they're all really good and applicable,
which is a total cop out answer.
It's fair enough though, but I,I have to pick two.
One of them we talked aboutalready quite a bit and it was
rule number two.
Mm-hmm.
Which is be grateful for whatyou have and demand what you
deserve.
Cuz I feel like that's a reallyimportant ongoing practice for
(18:58):
everybody.
And it sort of seems likeyounger generations are, are
doing a better job of that than,than mm-hmm.
Some of us who aren't so younganymore, which is great to see,
but it, it also has a lot ofbacklash too.
So it's, it's a hard thing to doand continue to implement.
But the other one, that's areally good reminder for me is
(19:20):
number four, failure meansyou're finally in the game and
basically like, instead of beingafraid of your failures, you
need to lean into them and sortof realize that those are your
learning moments.
You know, there's, there's a tonof old and tired cliches about,
you know, as long as you getback up, you, you haven't really
failed and, and those sorts ofthings.
(19:40):
But, I think that's a, that's areally great business lesson
because mm-hmm.
You know, li life in general isjust full of failure.
And if you can learn how to takethose things in stride and
actually learn from them and,and not be afraid of failing, I
think is sort of the biggestthing.
Because that fear can really beparalyzing and controlling and
(20:02):
annoying to deal with.
Yes.
So, that's another good kind ofongoing practice I took away.
Addi (20:09):
Yeah.
And I, I mean, I would say bothpersonally and from a business
perspective, like one of theharder things that I continue to
work on is, is leaning intofailure.
Not even It's okay, but likeit's actually expected and
needed and like, that's justlike a whole other level of
(20:31):
dealing with failure that isreally difficult for me.
But that's so fruitful and italso just makes life a lot less
stressful if you can approach itthat way.
Yep.
But yeah, hard to, hard toimplement on the regular, for
sure.
So same for me as I was like,oh, these are all great and
applicable in their own way.
(20:52):
And I actually had more than onewritten down at first, and then
I was like, Nope, let's justlike cut it.
Let's just do it.
Let's go to the one.
So I did only pick one at theend, which is, rule five be for
each other.
And this like really resonatesfor me, sort of like where I am,
you know?
So in that rule she's talkingabout like celebrating the
(21:13):
success of others and when youare successful, celebrating the
people who helped you make thatsuccess happen.
But in that chapter where she'stalking about like, she really
talks about sort of this cultureof scarcity and that everybody's
gotta get their piece of thepie.
And that means, you know, ifsomebody else gets a piece of
(21:34):
pie, you're not gonna get any,that there's a finite amount of
success available, of happiness.
And that's something that likepersonally I've been sort of
deep into lately in my life is,is trying to sort of take down
the scaffolding of scarcity thatwe've been taught.
And being able to really justopen up to sort of the abundance
(21:57):
of life, and that there's notlike a finite amount of love
available in the world.
There's not a finite amount ofjoy, of, of caring for people
like the, it just doesn't workthat way.
But we've been taught to, tobelieve that in so many aspects
of things.
Mm-hmm.
So that one really resonated forme because I was like, yep,
(22:18):
that's, that's a tough one andit colors like subtly colors, so
many ways of interacting in theworld.
And I wanna work on that more,kind of break free from that.
So, but yeah, they're all,they're all good rules.
I think they're good littlereminders, little things you
(22:39):
could write on a sticky note fora week, like you said actually
like, um, I like the idea oflike journaling each of them.
And like another, there'sanother book which is, uh, Brene
Brown I think The Gifts ofImperfection does a similar
thing where it's sort of likeeach chapter's about a, a thing.
And I actually was in like alittle book group and we, we
each, each week we would readone and journal about it and
(23:02):
then get together and talk aboutit.
And it was actually, it was justa nice structure to exploring
and really sitting with theidea.
It's a nice, structure to thebook and it is so sweet and
simple that you can really kindof go where you want with it.
Yep.
Awesome.
Well thanks for sharing yourthoughts and ideas on this one,
(23:23):
cuz this, I would like to domore of these book chats cuz I
read a lot.
It's way more fun to think aboutbooks that I've read with other
people.
Blake (23:33):
Yeah, they're ideas.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Yep.
Sign, sign me up.
Addi (23:38):
Awesome.
Cool.
Well, we will definitely bedoing more of these book chats
in the future.
We have a list of books that I'minterested in reading, so if
other people are gonna readthem.
Sweet.
And for anybody listening to thepodcast, if you have a book that
you think is pretty awesome thatyou would like us to read and do
a podcast on, let us know.
I am open to all kinds of books.
(24:01):
I read a lot.
I actually, my wife was justteasing me about this the other
day, so I looked up on GoodReads last year I read 171 books
last year in 2022, which is morethan three books a week.
I'm like, I don't even know howI do that.
But anyway, I read a lot ofbooks, so we can always put
(24:21):
another on the shelf.
All right, well thanks Blake.
And, I'm sure you're gonna be onanother podcast, so talk to you
again hopefully soon.
I think it'll happen.
I think it'll happen.
Blake (24:33):
Thanks, Addi.
Thanks.
Addi (24:37):
Hey, so thanks for listening and let us know if you
have questions, comments, orsuggestions for what you'd like
to hear more about.
You can find all of the variousways to reach us on our
website@osiolabs.com.
That's O S I O L A B S.com.
(24:57):
Also, please make sure tosubscribe to the podcast on your
podcast provider of choice.
We'll catch you on the nextepisode.
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