July 25, 2023 • 32 mins
In this episode we have special quest Sarah Maurer join us to talk about Long COVID and how that affects people’s lives, especially when it comes to work. What is it? What does it do? What do businesses need to be aware of to help their Long COVID employees?
Sarah is a certified breath worker, hypnotist, and integrative life coach. She is an ultra runner who is recovering from Long COVID and the creator of the forthcoming program FIREWALK, a support and education circle that frames Long COVID and other chronic illness as a shamanic initiation.
Resources
- PBS Article: 12 Symptom Definition for Long COVID
- Podcast: Interview with Harry Leeming of Visible
- Hidden Disabilities Sunflower
- Sarah's free 40-minute Long COVID Breathwork session download
- CDC Long COVID page
- BBC Article: The workers battling long Covid
You can get in touch with us to ask questions, leave comments, or provide suggestions on our website, https://osiolabs.com/.
Osio Labs is tinkering with Open Source Inside and Out. We’re on a mission to empower anyone to build websites using open source tools, and to create an open and sustainable business.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Addi (00:00):
Hey everybody.
This is Addison Berry and you'relistening to the Osio Labs
podcast, the show that exploresthe question,"how do we create
sustainable businesses that carefor people and make the world a
better place?" On today'sepisode, I'm joined by Sarah
Maurer, certified breath worker,hypnotist, and integrative life
coach.
This is episode number fiveabout long covid and how that
(00:24):
affects people's lives,especially when it comes to
work.
What is it?
What does it do?
What do businesses need to beaware of to help their long
Covid employees?
That's why we have Sarah on thiscall.
So thanks for joining.You, youare certainly an expert.
Why don't you just give a littlebit of context for, for why you
(00:46):
are an expert on this or what,why I chose you for this call.
Sarah (00:52):
Absolutely.
Thanks Addi.
Yeah, so I am a person that hasbeen, I, I hate to say
recovered.
I like the word recovering alittle bit better.
I.
From long Covid for about 10months.
I've come a long way and I alsoreally understand like what
this, what it's like to walkthis path, how it can impact
(01:15):
your work life, like all areasof your life, work life.
Social life, finances, selfconcept, general enjoyment of
life.
And it's been interesting for mebecause I'm also, um a, a
helping professional.
I was a counselor for many yearsand.
Currently working as a lifecoach, certified as a hypnotist,
(01:38):
and I think one of the mostinteresting as aspects, also
certified as a breath worker, soreally interested in the
autonomic nervous system, thingslike emotional management and
regulation.
So it's been so fascinating tobe able to study how the long
covid impacts that like insidemyself, so, oh, I'm sure we'll
talk about more about that.
Addi (01:58):
right.
You've got like, you've got likereal like evidence right here,
right in front of you, likeright in you.
Sarah (02:05):
Yeah.
It's so interesting cause yeah,there's so little as we'll talk
about research about this, likeit's very poorly understood.
So I kind of feel like I am likeon the forefront of research as
a person that has it like kindof experimenting and I bet a lot
of people with it feel that way.
Addi (02:23):
Yeah.
Okay.
Well let's, let's dig into thisand just for starters, let's
define what long Covid is,because I think everybody hears
this term.
Some people are.
Or just overhearing it cuz it's,you know, COVID.
So we're done.
And if it's not affecting ourlives, it's just like a thing
and I don't care or I don'tknow, or whatever.
(02:44):
So let's just define what islong Covid.
Sarah (02:49):
Sure, and I'm just gonna speak from the patient's point
of view.
I'm not a doctor or anresearcher, an epidemiologist
obviously, but I.
And part of the problem is thatthere is so little definition of
what it actually is.
As you'll see as, as soon as Istart like talking about what we
think it might be it's hard tobe taken seriously as someone
who has this condition.
(03:10):
So many people, like I literallywent out to dinner with a friend
I hadn't seen for a while lastnight, and I was like, oh yeah,
I've been dealing with longcovid, and she's like, Well, how
do you know you have that?
And I'm like, oh, wrongquestion.
Right?
Addi (03:23):
All right.
Sarah (03:24):
But um, yeah, but I mean, in some ways, like my answer to
her was, I don't know, becausethere really is no diagnostic
criteria, basically, um, kind ofthe layman's definition, it's.
Persistent COVID symptoms or newsymptoms that appear beyond four
weeks after first having aninfection.
(03:45):
Over 200 symptoms have beendescribed, attributed to this
condition.
I know, right?
So some of the common ones.
Fatigue, anomic dysfunction,brain fog.
Pastoral orthostatic tachycardiasyndrome, which just means like
when you go from sitting tostanding or lying to standing,
(04:06):
your body just goes haywire.
You're dizzy, your heart isracing.
People have neuropsychiatricsymptoms, anxiety, depression,
other mental illness.
A lot of people are exerciseintolerance.
Uh, that's been like the hardestsymptom for me.
I used to be an ultra runner andI, um am about to run like a
half marathon after 10 months,which is so exciting.
(04:28):
But it's been a long time likegetting back.
I wasn't able to exercise at allfor a long time, which was such
a mental health thing.
But anyway, yeah, commonsymptoms, headaches.
Sleep disturbances, gut issues.
Yeah, and there's the lack ofclear definition, as I'm sure
we'll talk about, makes itreally hard to be taken
seriously.
It makes it hard to getdiagnosed in the medical
(04:48):
community and it makes it hard,especially if you're very
affected, to get accommodations,disability benefits at work.
So, and it's such a huge impactbecause yeah, 22% of people with
this condition, according tosome studies, cannot work at all
about half.
At some point, at least reducetheir workload and we're talking
(05:10):
probably 10 to 30% of people whohave had covid have some long
covid symptoms.
So it's a huge thing for workand companies and economic
impacts.
Addi (05:21):
Wow.
Yeah.
That list of symptoms is so, andthis.
Relates and sort of takes me, Iguess, into my next question,
which is how does this relate tolike other chronic illnesses?
Cuz there are, there's, youknow, there are a lot of chronic
illnesses out there that arelong-term things and there are
(05:42):
lots of them that are somewhatill-defined.
Um, and so I'm curious, like,we're gonna, we're talking
specifically about long covidhere, but.
I guess like how much of thisconversation do you think would
apply broadly to Ill-definedchronic illness?
Sarah (06:01):
Like hugely,
Addi (06:03):
Yeah.
Sarah (06:03):
and I mean in, in a very literal way.
On one level, like a lot ofpeople with long covid may meet
the diagnostic criteria forother chronic illnesses.
Things like, I always say thiswrong, like my logic.
My Logic encephalopathy, whichis chronic fatigue syndrome,
kind of the new name for it.
Um, another one a lot of peoplemeet the diagnosis for is, oh
(06:27):
gosh, mast cell Activationsyndrome, which is when your
body can't process histamine.
I'm like, oh my gosh.
Thank goodness I got that.
I, I've been like thinking abouthow I'm gonna say that all day
cuz I always forget.
Yeah, and, and yes, like even ifin, in things like depression,
anxiety, obviously, but I.
It really is true that basicallywe're just dealing with someone
(06:51):
who maybe looks well, theirillness may be invisible, but
they still feel sick every day.
They still live with us everyday.
They still do not feel wellevery day and.
I think that, especially for me,I even think back to friends
that were maybe dealing withchronic illness symptoms before
I had a chronic illness.
(07:12):
It's so hard to reallyappreciate what that's like, how
that feels, how that affectsyou, how it's, you feel so
unacknowledged because it ishard for other people to see,
and even if they can see it,unless they've gone through
something similar, it's.
So hard to understand.
So I would say 100 per almosteverything we're gonna talk
(07:32):
about today.
If you are someone that isdealing with a mysterious
illness or undiagnosed illness,undiagnosed, like complex of
symptoms, it's all true.
It's all, all of it applies, Ireally think.
So there's a really great quoteabout, um, how to have a.
(07:52):
A, a mysterious illness is to besystematically unwitnessed that
I've heard in the long covidcontext.
But yeah, it was from someonethat had chronic fatigue
syndrome.
I believe so, yeah.
Addi (08:05):
Yeah.
It's interesting cuz I, and Ihaven't actually looked into
this too much, but I justlearned this past weekend that
here in Denmark there's a new,there's a program where.
They have like lanyards or um,like, uh, bands, uh, that people
can wear that are green and havelike flowers on them.
And what it, and it's mostlyespecially used for children,
(08:25):
but it's to signify that youhave an invisible disability so
that, so that people have somevisual clue, that you're, you
might not be operating at, atwhat other people would perceive
as a hundred percent, you know?
And, and to be aware of it., so.
And that like just talking aboutthat visibility thing and that
witnessing, right, it's justlike, just because people on the
(08:47):
outside look a certain way oreven behave and act in a certain
way and you just have theseassumptions about them, it's
like you, you don't know whatthey're dealing with and what's
going on and how hard that is.
And then on top of it beingignored, right?
Sarah (09:02):
Yeah.
Oh my gosh.
My heart just like reallyconnects to that.
I'm, I think my inner childwants to wear the Armand.
Addi (09:08):
totally.
Totally.
Oh my gosh.
Yeah.
So I mean, I don't know how muchyou wanna dig into how much long
Covid has affected youpersonally, just as sort of an
example, because there's thishuge range of symptoms.
There's like all of thesedifferent ways that it impacts
(09:31):
people's lives.
And so I'm just, but again, onlyas much as you wanna actually
share.
Like how has it impacted you andI guess like what has been
frustrating for you?
I mean, I already hear like justnot being seen for, for, for
where you are is, is massive,but are there other
frustrations?
I'm sure right.
Sarah (09:52):
Yeah.
So yeah, I'll just speak from myexperience and just keeping in
mind like this is a disease thatshows up like so many different
ways.
So my experience is typical insome ways and very atypical in
other ways.
I'm really lucky that I'm kindof on the milder end.
I've al I've never really, otherthan I think even in my acute
(10:13):
covid illness, I pretty muchworked right through it.
Um, yeah, because again, mysymptoms were often as they.
Are with those conditions.
The initial symptoms were notsevere.
Um, yeah, it was a pretty mildillness.
And then, yeah, like a fewmonths later is when it got
really hard.
I'm very lucky also in the sensethat I have two jobs and they're
(10:36):
both very flexible in, inaddition to my.
My practice where I'm workingwith people as a helping
professional change worker.
I'm also working ha, I stillhave my halftime corporate job
that I've had for a long time.
So I'm working in marketing andI am on a flex schedule, which
is incredibly nice.
Like I have a prettyunderstanding and laid back boss
(10:57):
that ha who has been amazing.
But yeah, like one thing Inoticed, and like through most
of my illness as I was workingis my productive hours per day
were much less and.
I usually could count likebefore on having like 10 hours a
day to like get all thehousehold chores done, get all
my work done at both jobs, get,you know, socializing, done,
(11:20):
like kind of like enc, like allthe parts of life done.
And I'd say like during like theworst part of my illness, I was
probably at about five and thatwas like really hard to swallow.
And then for a while I wasprobably about, Seven for that
was probably the longest phaseand I've just like in the past,
like month or two, pretty closeto back to 10.
So it really has forced me and Ithink this is such a good lesson
(11:44):
for individuals, for businessesto just get very lean and focus
on what's really important.
Like things that used to feelvery urgent, like cleaning my
house or like looking reallynice.
Before I went out or even likehanging out with certain people,
which sounds terrible.
It surely like forced me to gointo my heart and be like, what,
Addi (12:05):
Hmm.
Sarah (12:06):
important things?
Because I only have time forthose, which has been in a way
like kind of an amazing andlife-changing and growing thing
that I hope I continue as I feelbetter.
And it's also changed the natureand direction of my work as a
change worker.
Hypnotist coach in a really goodway.
I feel like I'm really liketrusting myself rather than, oh
(12:28):
my gosh, I have to go into asession very prepared and think
about it a lot ahead of time,which I don't have time to do.
So it's really been like, oh mygosh, I have to go in, I have
to.
To let it flow.
I have to really listen to whatthe client is telling me and
follow their lead, which hasbeen amazing.
Like I think it's made me such abetter coach.
(12:51):
I kind of, the joke is that Ikind of wing a lot of stuff, but
it really has like in a lot ofways than a blessing and I
actually ended up gettingcertified in a kind of a
modality that was a lot moreclient-centered, that it was
like allowing us to both.
Flow and just kind of take thesession where it went.
So that's been really kind ofsome of the good things.
Addi (13:14):
Awesome.
Yeah, so there's two things Iwanna point out from that.
One is, cuz it was interestingwhen you were just like, you
know that my number ofproductive hours, like my mi my
mind is just going to like, allright, like work hours, but like
productive hours is like yourwhole life.
You, you're trying to do thingsright.
And so like when looking atsomeone's.
(13:35):
Box of energy, right?
It, it's not just work thatthat's not the only thing that
is taking someone's energy.
And I feel like from a businessperspective, people tend to only
think of the box of when youcome into the office and leave
the office
Sarah (13:53):
Yeah.
Addi (13:53):
and, and it's just like there's a, a lot of other
things, I mean, regardless of,uh, illness.
You know, there's just a lot oflife that takes up a lot of
productive energy and time andYeah.
If you've already spent sixhours of your day just trying to
live, how much time do you thinkyou have left for, for work?
(14:17):
And then that brings you to thatprioritization thing, right?
You are prioritizing all of thethings that need to happen in a
given day or a given week.
You know, work is one of thosethings.
It's not the only thing beingprioritized, but then within
that work bucket, being reallyaware of what is the priority
(14:39):
there, because maybe not all ofthose things can be prioritized
either.
And this is just generally true.
Sarah (14:45):
Yeah.
Addi (14:45):
It's especially true with illness, but it's also just
generally true.
Like people just only have somuch that they can be doing and
it changes.
You know, it flows, it, itmoves.
It's not like everybody has theexact same set hours of product
productive energy within themevery single day that they wake
up.
Like that's just not realistic.
(15:07):
So anyway, that, I think that'slike a very good point for
people to just sort ofcontemplate like sit back and
think about when you're, whenyou're trying to put context to,
to all of this.
and then the other thing I justwanna mention quickly, As an
aside, which is that, Sarah ismy coach so I can validate that
(15:30):
her coaching method
Sarah (15:31):
ever.
Addi (15:32):
is working really, really well.
Um, cuz we've had some.
Sarah (15:37):
seen the whole evolution too.
Like you've been with me while Iwas going from kind of a more
cognitive coach to a hypnotist.
So I don't know how that's beenfor you, but
Addi (15:46):
Yeah.
No, but it's been great becauseI do feel like things really,
like we've just had, we've beenable to go into some really
interesting places and somereally interesting
conversations.
Um, And it's been hugely helpfulto me.
So anyway, that's just an aside,but that, like, that positive
change that has sort of beenpushed because of this
(16:07):
happening, right?
That it is having a beneficialimpact, at least for me
personally.
So I'll
Sarah (16:12):
Yeah.
Oh, I'm so happy to hear that.
It really is like a kind of amicrocosm of life, like held up
for, for one, it's interestingwhen you have a chronic illness.
Illness, I'm like, yeah, thatenergy box is very visible.
Addi (16:24):
Right, right.
It's got very distinct edges.
Sarah (16:28):
Yes.
Addi (16:31):
so, we've talked a little bit just sort of about like you,
how it's impacted you at work.
You've been in a really goodsituation.
And then I guess like carryingon from that, that context of a
workday for a person.
Is a limited box of, ofpriorities that are possible and
stuff like that.
(16:51):
And so, of course, like, youknow, businesses and managers
and all this can, can be awareof these things, but like what,
and it like, there are so manysymptoms, like you said, and it
impacts people in so manydifferent ways.
Like, but are there any general,I'm a business owner or I'm a
manager and I want to be betterat this.
I wanna, I even understand thisbetter.
(17:11):
Like what do I do?
How do I.
How do I make it more better?
Sarah (17:16):
Yeah, such a good question.
I think one of the mostimportant things, and maybe the
first thing a great place tostart is we really just need to
think about, I.
How there's, there's kind of anidea out there that people with
disabilities, people withchronic illnesses can't work or
they can't work as much.
And I, I shared some statisticsat the beginning.
(17:38):
A lot of them are not working asmuch or working at all, but some
of that may have to do withenvironments at work being rigid
and just not being really builtfor them.
So I think we really have.
Too as a society, because thisis just going to impact us so
much for years,
Addi (17:55):
not going away.
So.
Sarah (17:56):
Yeah.
This is not, yeah.
Even though the covid emergencyis over, in some places it's,
it's gonna be with us for a longtime.
We really need to think about,yeah, like how can we create
environments where everyone canwork and where people with like
diverse energy levels can be.
In a place where they're able tocontribute, what they can
(18:17):
contribute.
So I recommend for anyone who'sreally interested in this, I
heard an excellent podcast.
I think I dropped it in our shownotes, Addi, there's a company
called Visible and the, thecreator is a man with long Covid
who was very frustrated as manyof us are, that there's really
nothing, no devices, no likemetrics, nothing quantifiable to
(18:38):
help us.
Like kind of monitor our energylevels so that we can be more
predictive about how much weshould be doing, when we should
be doing things, when we shouldbe resting.
So he actually created a companythat's creating a wearable, it
has a free app called Visiblethat you can download and use.
It has a lot of pacing tools tohelp you manage energy levels.
(19:00):
But the interesting thing aboutthis company, it's a.
Startup and like half of theirworkers are actually people with
long covid.
So he talks on that podcastabout a little bit about their
company and their companyculture and how he's, the
schedules are incrediblyflexible.
People are all on flex time.
They can work in the middle ofthe night if they want.
(19:20):
some of the things they use toreally, accommodate that they
use asynchronous communication.
So there are really no meetings.
there's just things like maybeSlack or teams or, I'm not sure
exactly what they use, but justdifferent channels so that
people can communicate theirwork when they're ready to
communicate.
And then whenever the personthat's ready to receive is ready
(19:41):
to receive it, they can go inthere and pick it up.
And they've actually been ableto move this along like, So fast
with a company culture that iscompletely set up for just
people that may be working atodd times and may not be able to
come to, they have no meetings,which I thought was amazing.
And not seeing that meetings arealways bad, but, um, maybe
(20:03):
really thinking about how thataffects people, that if you're
having like a meeting everyMonday at eight o'clock, just to
all touch base, how does thataffect the person that has A
chronic illness that may havedifficulty sleeping and just may
feel terrible and not very alertin the morning, or not be able
to get up at all.
So yeah, some ideas there.
(20:25):
I really like encouragecompanies, managers, especially
if you're in a position to thinkabout benefits, creative ways to
help employees.
This is an expensive disease,like I am not even very
affected, but a lot of.
This is a whole otherconversation.
We could probably have like alot of my treatment right now,
(20:46):
the treatment that is actuallyworking is happening kind of
outside the traditional medicalsystem.
I actually go to a doctor onlinewho's in a different state than
me.
All she does is long covid andshe has a concierge practice, so
I pay her out of pocket, andthen things she prescribes to me
are not covered by my insurance,and I mean, they're not like,
(21:08):
Crazy expensive, but it can getexpensive depending on what kind
of treatments you want to try asa person with long covid with
chronic illness.
So yeah, just thinking about ifthere are financially creative
ways that you can support youremployees, whether that's a
grant, a fund, a stipend,something, just to help out with
it and just also knowing thatthey may be financially stressed
(21:31):
at this time.
Yeah.
And then I think the other twothings just really are kind of
cultural things.
Um, long covid patients are,like we said, are very
invisible.
They're very talked over.
I get a lot of people asking me,how do you know you have this?
I actually never tested positivefor Covid, even though I was.
Exposed to it,, prettyobviously, but I, for whatever
(21:53):
reason, my test, the home testnever came up positive.
And then a doctor actually saidto me like, you really should go
and try to get the p C R andcome up positive because if you
have long covid later, it'sgoing to like, make it easier to
be taken seriously by medicine,by work.
So, 12 days later I got the P CR, and of course it's negative,
(22:13):
but about 15% of people that,present having this condition at
never actually tested positive.
That's pretty common.
So yeah, so I think just as aculture, just like being aware
of that, being aware, evenpeople who.
To test positive, have a hardtime being taken seriously.
So I think the way you do thatis to really treat, that person
as the expert in their owncondition.
(22:34):
This is true of all chronicillnesses.
I think it's so true.
So instead of being like, how doyou, how do you know you have
that?
Or are you sure?
Or, you know, like, or givinglike advice,
Addi (22:46):
Or I heard about this other person who had it, and you
don't sound anything like that.
Sarah (22:53):
Not tired all the time, like Suzie.
Addi (22:55):
right.
Ugh.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Sarah (22:57):
gosh.
Yeah, treat them like the expertask questions.
They generally, I, I found inthis community, like we all have
to take responsibility foreducating ourselves cuz there's
not a lot out there.
So they might be able to tellyou quite a bit.
And then just focus on makingthe invisible visible, like as a
company, um, do you have like acommunity, a place, a safe space
(23:20):
for people with chronic illness?
Chronic illness is kind of anice word that in, uh, like we
said, that includes like the bigumbrella of people that maybe
are dealing with something thatis limiting their function,
limiting their energy, butthey're not exactly sure what it
is.
They're undiagnosed.
So, yeah, just creating safespaces for that.
(23:40):
Talking about it as a company,we talked about there's a lot of
people with long covid.
There's probably two in theUnited States alone where I
live, there's probably two to 3million people with chronic
fatigue syndrome.
It's hugely under di.
Most of them are not diagnosed.
But they know that they'retired.
They know that they're having ahard time.
And if you think about the wholeworld, how many people that is.
(24:03):
So yeah, those are some of mythoughts.
Addi, like,
Addi (24:06):
awesome.
Yeah.
Well, you know, I, the thing islike when I, so when I'm
listening to this and I'm like,yes, yes, these things all make
sense.
This is how businesses shouldoperate anyway.
Like the, it shouldn't just befor chronic illness, right?
Because it just, and it, itmakes me think of, just when
(24:28):
reading or talking and listeningto people, who are disabled in
any way, and they're like, whenwe make changes to accommodate
people regardless of the reasonfor their quote unquote
disability or their illness orwhatever, it, it works for
everybody.
Like we, we are, we are making amore accommodating, a more
(24:50):
sustainable, life worthyenvironment for everyone when we
accommodate.
But what often happens is peopleare like, oh, you need a special
accommodation?
Okay, well let's see what we cando.
Sarah (25:05):
sorry,
Addi (25:07):
Right?
And.
Sarah (25:08):
this very strongly.
Addi (25:09):
Yeah.
And so it's like, it's superfrustrating to me when, when,
you know, you get that pushbackfor special accommodations and
I'm just like, what?
But, but human, human beinglike, this is, this is, this is
what we should be thinking aboutand trying to do all the time.
and so anything that a companywould do that could help
(25:32):
accommodate.
People specifically with chronicillnesses or long covid is going
to benefit all of all of the,the employees, the entire
company.
and as you were saying, like youknow, you have these people with
chronic illnesses who are notworking or not working
full-time, and that is for sure.
Valid from like their conditionthat just not gonna happen.
(25:56):
But there's also a percentageand an element of that that is
simply they cannot perform andwork within the conditions that
they are expected to.
And that's a really differentlevel of not productive.
Sarah (26:11):
And I think that's a big group actually.
It's a large percentage ofpeople with disabilities,
chronic conditions.
Addi (26:18):
Totally.
So if we would just be aware ofthese things, lean into these
and figure this out.
Like you, you would end up with,you know, I mean if you wanna
look at it from like, you know,big old capitalist corporate
mindset, we would end up with amore productive society.
Right.
But like, you would also justend up with a happier, healthier
people, like
Sarah (26:37):
right.
Addi (26:38):
just.
Sarah (26:39):
Let's accommodate the humanness.
Addi (26:42):
Yeah, so, right.
I think there's like this, thisidea of like, what can I do for
people with chronic illness?
It's like, you know, treat'emlike a human being.
Like, let's, let's, let's startthere, work our way out.
But I, I'm also really glad,like that you brought up things
that I think a lot of peopledon't think of or don't wanna
(27:03):
talk about, like financialstress.
Like, oh, that's something forinsurance to figure out or for
people's, their families tofigure out.
Like that's not a thing that I,as a manager should think about
or be aware of, that they mightbe financially stressed right
now.
But I mean, again, this is thiswhole big picture and, and
again, speaking of like, youknow, chronic illness, people's
(27:26):
productivity and makingaccommodation, I mean, there's,
you know, disabilities, there'sillnesses, but there are things
like, Grief, it
Sarah (27:35):
Yeah.
Addi (27:36):
crippling.
Like people have so many thingshappening in their lives and so
I just, you know, like all ofthese things, all of this
affects everybody at some pointin their life, which is why this
is something we need to justgenerally address as companies
instead of trying to frame it asa special case.
(27:59):
And do I need to justify thisspecial case or not?
It's like, well, all humans atsome point probably experience
something that diminishes theirquote unquote productivity for
the machine.
So how about we think about thatfrom a broader picture, you
(28:23):
know, a broader perspective.
So that's, that's what I sort oftake away from all of this is
Sarah (28:28):
like, amen.
It's so interesting as you'respeaking, and if this is a
tangent, feel free to edit itout, but one thing that comes up
to me as I'm hearing you talkabout like humans, and let's
accommodate the humanness andthe individual differences and
the individual experiences thatjust kind of move through us as
(28:48):
we're just walking this path ofbeing human.
And I think of women like womenare.
Cycle like our,
Addi (28:57):
Oh yeah.
Sarah (28:57):
actually have a period, like every day literally is a
different internal environmentfor us.
Whereas men, like I, the wayI've always heard it explained,
men have a cycle, but it allhappens in 24 hours, whereas
ours happens in 28 days.
And like a lot of workenvironments are really like
kinda set up to every day is thesame because for men that set it
(29:19):
up, it was, but for women, Thatmaybe have a couple days a month
where they're just very likemaybe at work just struggling so
hard to pay attention andthey're in pain and they're
brain fogged and they're justnot productive.
like I've, some countries areactually starting to give, leave
or for like women, wheneveryou're at that point in your
(29:39):
cycle, and I just love that.
So I don't know, it justreminded me
Addi (29:43):
Totally, totally related.
And actually this is this is abigger tangent and we're not
gonna go there now, but on afuture podcast, and you and I
have also talked about this.
The whole just like cycles,cycles of being a human being.
Like there's so many cycles.
There's seasonal cycles, there'sphysical cycles, there's you
know, family life change cycles.
(30:04):
There's so much happening and wehave five days a week, 52 weeks
out of the year.
It's the same all the time.
And we expect this factorymachine existence.
In a, in a world that doesn'tlook anything like that.
Sarah (30:22):
Right.
Addi (30:24):
I have, I have a whole podcast
Sarah (30:26):
Oh my gosh.
I can't wait to hear it.
Addi, make, please make thatone.
Yeah.
I always tell people like we arenature and nature is cycles.
The tides go in and out and weare the same.
Addi (30:39):
it's, it's all moving all the time for sure.
Well, we should probably wrapthis one up.
cuz I would just, you and I, wecan just keep jawing on for
hours.
But, but thank you so much for,for coming and talking about
this.
This is huge and I think thisis, yeah, this is such a, such a
(30:59):
great topic because I thinkpeople really need to just be
aware, like this is real.
And, how it really affectspeople and it's not going away
anytime soon.
And so like, let's talk about itinstead of pretending it doesn't
exist.
So thank you.
Sarah (31:20):
Thank you for talking about it.
Like I think this is a beautifullike step in that direction to
have it on your podcast.
Addi (31:27):
Well, I will, I'll be talking to you in the future so
we can say goodbye for now forthe podcast.
Sarah (31:35):
Yes, I see you soon.
Addi (31:39):
Hey, so thanks for listening and let us know if you
have questions, comments, orsuggestions for what you'd like
to hear more about.
You can find all of the variousways to reach us on our
website@osiolabs.com.
That's O S I O L A B S.com.
(31:59):
Also, please make sure tosubscribe to the podcast on your
podcast provider of choice.
We'll catch you on the nextepisode.
Hey everybody.
This is Addison Berry and you'relistening to the Osio Labs
podcast, the show that exploresthe question,"how do we create
sustainable businesses that carefor people and make the world a
better place?" On today'sepisode, I'm joined by Sarah
Maurer, certified breath worker,hypnotist, and integrative life
coach.
This is episode number fiveabout long covid and how that
(00:24):
affects people's lives,especially when it comes to
work.
What is it?
What does it do?
What do businesses need to beaware of to help their long
Covid employees?
That's why we have Sarah on thiscall.
So thanks for joining.You, youare certainly an expert.
Why don't you just give a littlebit of context for, for why you
(00:46):
are an expert on this or what,why I chose you for this call.
Sarah (00:52):
Absolutely.
Thanks Addi.
Yeah, so I am a person that hasbeen, I, I hate to say
recovered.
I like the word recovering alittle bit better.
I.
From long Covid for about 10months.
I've come a long way and I alsoreally understand like what
this, what it's like to walkthis path, how it can impact
(01:15):
your work life, like all areasof your life, work life.
Social life, finances, selfconcept, general enjoyment of
life.
And it's been interesting for mebecause I'm also, um a, a
helping professional.
I was a counselor for many yearsand.
Currently working as a lifecoach, certified as a hypnotist,
(01:38):
and I think one of the mostinteresting as aspects, also
certified as a breath worker, soreally interested in the
autonomic nervous system, thingslike emotional management and
regulation.
So it's been so fascinating tobe able to study how the long
covid impacts that like insidemyself, so, oh, I'm sure we'll
talk about more about that.
Addi (01:58):
right.
You've got like, you've got likereal like evidence right here,
right in front of you, likeright in you.
Sarah (02:05):
Yeah.
It's so interesting cause yeah,there's so little as we'll talk
about research about this, likeit's very poorly understood.
So I kind of feel like I am likeon the forefront of research as
a person that has it like kindof experimenting and I bet a lot
of people with it feel that way.
Addi (02:23):
Yeah.
Okay.
Well let's, let's dig into thisand just for starters, let's
define what long Covid is,because I think everybody hears
this term.
Some people are.
Or just overhearing it cuz it's,you know, COVID.
So we're done.
And if it's not affecting ourlives, it's just like a thing
and I don't care or I don'tknow, or whatever.
(02:44):
So let's just define what islong Covid.
Sarah (02:49):
Sure, and I'm just gonna speak from the patient's point
of view.
I'm not a doctor or anresearcher, an epidemiologist
obviously, but I.
And part of the problem is thatthere is so little definition of
what it actually is.
As you'll see as, as soon as Istart like talking about what we
think it might be it's hard tobe taken seriously as someone
who has this condition.
(03:10):
So many people, like I literallywent out to dinner with a friend
I hadn't seen for a while lastnight, and I was like, oh yeah,
I've been dealing with longcovid, and she's like, Well, how
do you know you have that?
And I'm like, oh, wrongquestion.
Right?
Addi (03:23):
All right.
Sarah (03:24):
But um, yeah, but I mean, in some ways, like my answer to
her was, I don't know, becausethere really is no diagnostic
criteria, basically, um, kind ofthe layman's definition, it's.
Persistent COVID symptoms or newsymptoms that appear beyond four
weeks after first having aninfection.
(03:45):
Over 200 symptoms have beendescribed, attributed to this
condition.
I know, right?
So some of the common ones.
Fatigue, anomic dysfunction,brain fog.
Pastoral orthostatic tachycardiasyndrome, which just means like
when you go from sitting tostanding or lying to standing,
(04:06):
your body just goes haywire.
You're dizzy, your heart isracing.
People have neuropsychiatricsymptoms, anxiety, depression,
other mental illness.
A lot of people are exerciseintolerance.
Uh, that's been like the hardestsymptom for me.
I used to be an ultra runner andI, um am about to run like a
half marathon after 10 months,which is so exciting.
(04:28):
But it's been a long time likegetting back.
I wasn't able to exercise at allfor a long time, which was such
a mental health thing.
But anyway, yeah, commonsymptoms, headaches.
Sleep disturbances, gut issues.
Yeah, and there's the lack ofclear definition, as I'm sure
we'll talk about, makes itreally hard to be taken
seriously.
It makes it hard to getdiagnosed in the medical
(04:48):
community and it makes it hard,especially if you're very
affected, to get accommodations,disability benefits at work.
So, and it's such a huge impactbecause yeah, 22% of people with
this condition, according tosome studies, cannot work at all
about half.
At some point, at least reducetheir workload and we're talking
(05:10):
probably 10 to 30% of people whohave had covid have some long
covid symptoms.
So it's a huge thing for workand companies and economic
impacts.
Addi (05:21):
Wow.
Yeah.
That list of symptoms is so, andthis.
Relates and sort of takes me, Iguess, into my next question,
which is how does this relate tolike other chronic illnesses?
Cuz there are, there's, youknow, there are a lot of chronic
illnesses out there that arelong-term things and there are
(05:42):
lots of them that are somewhatill-defined.
Um, and so I'm curious, like,we're gonna, we're talking
specifically about long covidhere, but.
I guess like how much of thisconversation do you think would
apply broadly to Ill-definedchronic illness?
Sarah (06:01):
Like hugely,
Addi (06:03):
Yeah.
Sarah (06:03):
and I mean in, in a very literal way.
On one level, like a lot ofpeople with long covid may meet
the diagnostic criteria forother chronic illnesses.
Things like, I always say thiswrong, like my logic.
My Logic encephalopathy, whichis chronic fatigue syndrome,
kind of the new name for it.
Um, another one a lot of peoplemeet the diagnosis for is, oh
(06:27):
gosh, mast cell Activationsyndrome, which is when your
body can't process histamine.
I'm like, oh my gosh.
Thank goodness I got that.
I, I've been like thinking abouthow I'm gonna say that all day
cuz I always forget.
Yeah, and, and yes, like even ifin, in things like depression,
anxiety, obviously, but I.
It really is true that basicallywe're just dealing with someone
(06:51):
who maybe looks well, theirillness may be invisible, but
they still feel sick every day.
They still live with us everyday.
They still do not feel wellevery day and.
I think that, especially for me,I even think back to friends
that were maybe dealing withchronic illness symptoms before
I had a chronic illness.
(07:12):
It's so hard to reallyappreciate what that's like, how
that feels, how that affectsyou, how it's, you feel so
unacknowledged because it ishard for other people to see,
and even if they can see it,unless they've gone through
something similar, it's.
So hard to understand.
So I would say 100 per almosteverything we're gonna talk
(07:32):
about today.
If you are someone that isdealing with a mysterious
illness or undiagnosed illness,undiagnosed, like complex of
symptoms, it's all true.
It's all, all of it applies, Ireally think.
So there's a really great quoteabout, um, how to have a.
(07:52):
A, a mysterious illness is to besystematically unwitnessed that
I've heard in the long covidcontext.
But yeah, it was from someonethat had chronic fatigue
syndrome.
I believe so, yeah.
Addi (08:05):
Yeah.
It's interesting cuz I, and Ihaven't actually looked into
this too much, but I justlearned this past weekend that
here in Denmark there's a new,there's a program where.
They have like lanyards or um,like, uh, bands, uh, that people
can wear that are green and havelike flowers on them.
And what it, and it's mostlyespecially used for children,
(08:25):
but it's to signify that youhave an invisible disability so
that, so that people have somevisual clue, that you're, you
might not be operating at, atwhat other people would perceive
as a hundred percent, you know?
And, and to be aware of it., so.
And that like just talking aboutthat visibility thing and that
witnessing, right, it's justlike, just because people on the
(08:47):
outside look a certain way oreven behave and act in a certain
way and you just have theseassumptions about them, it's
like you, you don't know whatthey're dealing with and what's
going on and how hard that is.
And then on top of it beingignored, right?
Sarah (09:02):
Yeah.
Oh my gosh.
My heart just like reallyconnects to that.
I'm, I think my inner childwants to wear the Armand.
Addi (09:08):
totally.
Totally.
Oh my gosh.
Yeah.
So I mean, I don't know how muchyou wanna dig into how much long
Covid has affected youpersonally, just as sort of an
example, because there's thishuge range of symptoms.
There's like all of thesedifferent ways that it impacts
(09:31):
people's lives.
And so I'm just, but again, onlyas much as you wanna actually
share.
Like how has it impacted you andI guess like what has been
frustrating for you?
I mean, I already hear like justnot being seen for, for, for
where you are is, is massive,but are there other
frustrations?
I'm sure right.
Sarah (09:52):
Yeah.
So yeah, I'll just speak from myexperience and just keeping in
mind like this is a disease thatshows up like so many different
ways.
So my experience is typical insome ways and very atypical in
other ways.
I'm really lucky that I'm kindof on the milder end.
I've al I've never really, otherthan I think even in my acute
(10:13):
covid illness, I pretty muchworked right through it.
Um, yeah, because again, mysymptoms were often as they.
Are with those conditions.
The initial symptoms were notsevere.
Um, yeah, it was a pretty mildillness.
And then, yeah, like a fewmonths later is when it got
really hard.
I'm very lucky also in the sensethat I have two jobs and they're
(10:36):
both very flexible in, inaddition to my.
My practice where I'm workingwith people as a helping
professional change worker.
I'm also working ha, I stillhave my halftime corporate job
that I've had for a long time.
So I'm working in marketing andI am on a flex schedule, which
is incredibly nice.
Like I have a prettyunderstanding and laid back boss
(10:57):
that ha who has been amazing.
But yeah, like one thing Inoticed, and like through most
of my illness as I was workingis my productive hours per day
were much less and.
I usually could count likebefore on having like 10 hours a
day to like get all thehousehold chores done, get all
my work done at both jobs, get,you know, socializing, done,
(11:20):
like kind of like enc, like allthe parts of life done.
And I'd say like during like theworst part of my illness, I was
probably at about five and thatwas like really hard to swallow.
And then for a while I wasprobably about, Seven for that
was probably the longest phaseand I've just like in the past,
like month or two, pretty closeto back to 10.
So it really has forced me and Ithink this is such a good lesson
(11:44):
for individuals, for businessesto just get very lean and focus
on what's really important.
Like things that used to feelvery urgent, like cleaning my
house or like looking reallynice.
Before I went out or even likehanging out with certain people,
which sounds terrible.
It surely like forced me to gointo my heart and be like, what,
Addi (12:05):
Hmm.
Sarah (12:06):
important things?
Because I only have time forthose, which has been in a way
like kind of an amazing andlife-changing and growing thing
that I hope I continue as I feelbetter.
And it's also changed the natureand direction of my work as a
change worker.
Hypnotist coach in a really goodway.
I feel like I'm really liketrusting myself rather than, oh
(12:28):
my gosh, I have to go into asession very prepared and think
about it a lot ahead of time,which I don't have time to do.
So it's really been like, oh mygosh, I have to go in, I have
to.
To let it flow.
I have to really listen to whatthe client is telling me and
follow their lead, which hasbeen amazing.
Like I think it's made me such abetter coach.
(12:51):
I kind of, the joke is that Ikind of wing a lot of stuff, but
it really has like in a lot ofways than a blessing and I
actually ended up gettingcertified in a kind of a
modality that was a lot moreclient-centered, that it was
like allowing us to both.
Flow and just kind of take thesession where it went.
So that's been really kind ofsome of the good things.
Addi (13:14):
Awesome.
Yeah, so there's two things Iwanna point out from that.
One is, cuz it was interestingwhen you were just like, you
know that my number ofproductive hours, like my mi my
mind is just going to like, allright, like work hours, but like
productive hours is like yourwhole life.
You, you're trying to do thingsright.
And so like when looking atsomeone's.
(13:35):
Box of energy, right?
It, it's not just work thatthat's not the only thing that
is taking someone's energy.
And I feel like from a businessperspective, people tend to only
think of the box of when youcome into the office and leave
the office
Sarah (13:53):
Yeah.
Addi (13:53):
and, and it's just like there's a, a lot of other
things, I mean, regardless of,uh, illness.
You know, there's just a lot oflife that takes up a lot of
productive energy and time andYeah.
If you've already spent sixhours of your day just trying to
live, how much time do you thinkyou have left for, for work?
(14:17):
And then that brings you to thatprioritization thing, right?
You are prioritizing all of thethings that need to happen in a
given day or a given week.
You know, work is one of thosethings.
It's not the only thing beingprioritized, but then within
that work bucket, being reallyaware of what is the priority
(14:39):
there, because maybe not all ofthose things can be prioritized
either.
And this is just generally true.
Sarah (14:45):
Yeah.
Addi (14:45):
It's especially true with illness, but it's also just
generally true.
Like people just only have somuch that they can be doing and
it changes.
You know, it flows, it, itmoves.
It's not like everybody has theexact same set hours of product
productive energy within themevery single day that they wake
up.
Like that's just not realistic.
(15:07):
So anyway, that, I think that'slike a very good point for
people to just sort ofcontemplate like sit back and
think about when you're, whenyou're trying to put context to,
to all of this.
and then the other thing I justwanna mention quickly, As an
aside, which is that, Sarah ismy coach so I can validate that
(15:30):
her coaching method
Sarah (15:31):
ever.
Addi (15:32):
is working really, really well.
Um, cuz we've had some.
Sarah (15:37):
seen the whole evolution too.
Like you've been with me while Iwas going from kind of a more
cognitive coach to a hypnotist.
So I don't know how that's beenfor you, but
Addi (15:46):
Yeah.
No, but it's been great becauseI do feel like things really,
like we've just had, we've beenable to go into some really
interesting places and somereally interesting
conversations.
Um, And it's been hugely helpfulto me.
So anyway, that's just an aside,but that, like, that positive
change that has sort of beenpushed because of this
(16:07):
happening, right?
That it is having a beneficialimpact, at least for me
personally.
So I'll
Sarah (16:12):
Yeah.
Oh, I'm so happy to hear that.
It really is like a kind of amicrocosm of life, like held up
for, for one, it's interestingwhen you have a chronic illness.
Illness, I'm like, yeah, thatenergy box is very visible.
Addi (16:24):
Right, right.
It's got very distinct edges.
Sarah (16:28):
Yes.
Addi (16:31):
so, we've talked a little bit just sort of about like you,
how it's impacted you at work.
You've been in a really goodsituation.
And then I guess like carryingon from that, that context of a
workday for a person.
Is a limited box of, ofpriorities that are possible and
stuff like that.
(16:51):
And so, of course, like, youknow, businesses and managers
and all this can, can be awareof these things, but like what,
and it like, there are so manysymptoms, like you said, and it
impacts people in so manydifferent ways.
Like, but are there any general,I'm a business owner or I'm a
manager and I want to be betterat this.
I wanna, I even understand thisbetter.
(17:11):
Like what do I do?
How do I.
How do I make it more better?
Sarah (17:16):
Yeah, such a good question.
I think one of the mostimportant things, and maybe the
first thing a great place tostart is we really just need to
think about, I.
How there's, there's kind of anidea out there that people with
disabilities, people withchronic illnesses can't work or
they can't work as much.
And I, I shared some statisticsat the beginning.
(17:38):
A lot of them are not working asmuch or working at all, but some
of that may have to do withenvironments at work being rigid
and just not being really builtfor them.
So I think we really have.
Too as a society, because thisis just going to impact us so
much for years,
Addi (17:55):
not going away.
So.
Sarah (17:56):
Yeah.
This is not, yeah.
Even though the covid emergencyis over, in some places it's,
it's gonna be with us for a longtime.
We really need to think about,yeah, like how can we create
environments where everyone canwork and where people with like
diverse energy levels can be.
In a place where they're able tocontribute, what they can
(18:17):
contribute.
So I recommend for anyone who'sreally interested in this, I
heard an excellent podcast.
I think I dropped it in our shownotes, Addi, there's a company
called Visible and the, thecreator is a man with long Covid
who was very frustrated as manyof us are, that there's really
nothing, no devices, no likemetrics, nothing quantifiable to
(18:38):
help us.
Like kind of monitor our energylevels so that we can be more
predictive about how much weshould be doing, when we should
be doing things, when we shouldbe resting.
So he actually created a companythat's creating a wearable, it
has a free app called Visiblethat you can download and use.
It has a lot of pacing tools tohelp you manage energy levels.
(19:00):
But the interesting thing aboutthis company, it's a.
Startup and like half of theirworkers are actually people with
long covid.
So he talks on that podcastabout a little bit about their
company and their companyculture and how he's, the
schedules are incrediblyflexible.
People are all on flex time.
They can work in the middle ofthe night if they want.
(19:20):
some of the things they use toreally, accommodate that they
use asynchronous communication.
So there are really no meetings.
there's just things like maybeSlack or teams or, I'm not sure
exactly what they use, but justdifferent channels so that
people can communicate theirwork when they're ready to
communicate.
And then whenever the personthat's ready to receive is ready
(19:41):
to receive it, they can go inthere and pick it up.
And they've actually been ableto move this along like, So fast
with a company culture that iscompletely set up for just
people that may be working atodd times and may not be able to
come to, they have no meetings,which I thought was amazing.
And not seeing that meetings arealways bad, but, um, maybe
(20:03):
really thinking about how thataffects people, that if you're
having like a meeting everyMonday at eight o'clock, just to
all touch base, how does thataffect the person that has A
chronic illness that may havedifficulty sleeping and just may
feel terrible and not very alertin the morning, or not be able
to get up at all.
So yeah, some ideas there.
(20:25):
I really like encouragecompanies, managers, especially
if you're in a position to thinkabout benefits, creative ways to
help employees.
This is an expensive disease,like I am not even very
affected, but a lot of.
This is a whole otherconversation.
We could probably have like alot of my treatment right now,
(20:46):
the treatment that is actuallyworking is happening kind of
outside the traditional medicalsystem.
I actually go to a doctor onlinewho's in a different state than
me.
All she does is long covid andshe has a concierge practice, so
I pay her out of pocket, andthen things she prescribes to me
are not covered by my insurance,and I mean, they're not like,
(21:08):
Crazy expensive, but it can getexpensive depending on what kind
of treatments you want to try asa person with long covid with
chronic illness.
So yeah, just thinking about ifthere are financially creative
ways that you can support youremployees, whether that's a
grant, a fund, a stipend,something, just to help out with
it and just also knowing thatthey may be financially stressed
(21:31):
at this time.
Yeah.
And then I think the other twothings just really are kind of
cultural things.
Um, long covid patients are,like we said, are very
invisible.
They're very talked over.
I get a lot of people asking me,how do you know you have this?
I actually never tested positivefor Covid, even though I was.
Exposed to it,, prettyobviously, but I, for whatever
(21:53):
reason, my test, the home testnever came up positive.
And then a doctor actually saidto me like, you really should go
and try to get the p C R andcome up positive because if you
have long covid later, it'sgoing to like, make it easier to
be taken seriously by medicine,by work.
So, 12 days later I got the P CR, and of course it's negative,
(22:13):
but about 15% of people that,present having this condition at
never actually tested positive.
That's pretty common.
So yeah, so I think just as aculture, just like being aware
of that, being aware, evenpeople who.
To test positive, have a hardtime being taken seriously.
So I think the way you do thatis to really treat, that person
as the expert in their owncondition.
(22:34):
This is true of all chronicillnesses.
I think it's so true.
So instead of being like, how doyou, how do you know you have
that?
Or are you sure?
Or, you know, like, or givinglike advice,
Addi (22:46):
Or I heard about this other person who had it, and you
don't sound anything like that.
Sarah (22:53):
Not tired all the time, like Suzie.
Addi (22:55):
right.
Ugh.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Sarah (22:57):
gosh.
Yeah, treat them like the expertask questions.
They generally, I, I found inthis community, like we all have
to take responsibility foreducating ourselves cuz there's
not a lot out there.
So they might be able to tellyou quite a bit.
And then just focus on makingthe invisible visible, like as a
company, um, do you have like acommunity, a place, a safe space
(23:20):
for people with chronic illness?
Chronic illness is kind of anice word that in, uh, like we
said, that includes like the bigumbrella of people that maybe
are dealing with something thatis limiting their function,
limiting their energy, butthey're not exactly sure what it
is.
They're undiagnosed.
So, yeah, just creating safespaces for that.
(23:40):
Talking about it as a company,we talked about there's a lot of
people with long covid.
There's probably two in theUnited States alone where I
live, there's probably two to 3million people with chronic
fatigue syndrome.
It's hugely under di.
Most of them are not diagnosed.
But they know that they'retired.
They know that they're having ahard time.
And if you think about the wholeworld, how many people that is.
(24:03):
So yeah, those are some of mythoughts.
Addi, like,
Addi (24:06):
awesome.
Yeah.
Well, you know, I, the thing islike when I, so when I'm
listening to this and I'm like,yes, yes, these things all make
sense.
This is how businesses shouldoperate anyway.
Like the, it shouldn't just befor chronic illness, right?
Because it just, and it, itmakes me think of, just when
(24:28):
reading or talking and listeningto people, who are disabled in
any way, and they're like, whenwe make changes to accommodate
people regardless of the reasonfor their quote unquote
disability or their illness orwhatever, it, it works for
everybody.
Like we, we are, we are making amore accommodating, a more
(24:50):
sustainable, life worthyenvironment for everyone when we
accommodate.
But what often happens is peopleare like, oh, you need a special
accommodation?
Okay, well let's see what we cando.
Sarah (25:05):
sorry,
Addi (25:07):
Right?
And.
Sarah (25:08):
this very strongly.
Addi (25:09):
Yeah.
And so it's like, it's superfrustrating to me when, when,
you know, you get that pushbackfor special accommodations and
I'm just like, what?
But, but human, human beinglike, this is, this is, this is
what we should be thinking aboutand trying to do all the time.
and so anything that a companywould do that could help
(25:32):
accommodate.
People specifically with chronicillnesses or long covid is going
to benefit all of all of the,the employees, the entire
company.
and as you were saying, like youknow, you have these people with
chronic illnesses who are notworking or not working
full-time, and that is for sure.
Valid from like their conditionthat just not gonna happen.
(25:56):
But there's also a percentageand an element of that that is
simply they cannot perform andwork within the conditions that
they are expected to.
And that's a really differentlevel of not productive.
Sarah (26:11):
And I think that's a big group actually.
It's a large percentage ofpeople with disabilities,
chronic conditions.
Addi (26:18):
Totally.
So if we would just be aware ofthese things, lean into these
and figure this out.
Like you, you would end up with,you know, I mean if you wanna
look at it from like, you know,big old capitalist corporate
mindset, we would end up with amore productive society.
Right.
But like, you would also justend up with a happier, healthier
people, like
Sarah (26:37):
right.
Addi (26:38):
just.
Sarah (26:39):
Let's accommodate the humanness.
Addi (26:42):
Yeah, so, right.
I think there's like this, thisidea of like, what can I do for
people with chronic illness?
It's like, you know, treat'emlike a human being.
Like, let's, let's, let's startthere, work our way out.
But I, I'm also really glad,like that you brought up things
that I think a lot of peopledon't think of or don't wanna
(27:03):
talk about, like financialstress.
Like, oh, that's something forinsurance to figure out or for
people's, their families tofigure out.
Like that's not a thing that I,as a manager should think about
or be aware of, that they mightbe financially stressed right
now.
But I mean, again, this is thiswhole big picture and, and
again, speaking of like, youknow, chronic illness, people's
(27:26):
productivity and makingaccommodation, I mean, there's,
you know, disabilities, there'sillnesses, but there are things
like, Grief, it
Sarah (27:35):
Yeah.
Addi (27:36):
crippling.
Like people have so many thingshappening in their lives and so
I just, you know, like all ofthese things, all of this
affects everybody at some pointin their life, which is why this
is something we need to justgenerally address as companies
instead of trying to frame it asa special case.
(27:59):
And do I need to justify thisspecial case or not?
It's like, well, all humans atsome point probably experience
something that diminishes theirquote unquote productivity for
the machine.
So how about we think about thatfrom a broader picture, you
(28:23):
know, a broader perspective.
So that's, that's what I sort oftake away from all of this is
Sarah (28:28):
like, amen.
It's so interesting as you'respeaking, and if this is a
tangent, feel free to edit itout, but one thing that comes up
to me as I'm hearing you talkabout like humans, and let's
accommodate the humanness andthe individual differences and
the individual experiences thatjust kind of move through us as
(28:48):
we're just walking this path ofbeing human.
And I think of women like womenare.
Cycle like our,
Addi (28:57):
Oh yeah.
Sarah (28:57):
actually have a period, like every day literally is a
different internal environmentfor us.
Whereas men, like I, the wayI've always heard it explained,
men have a cycle, but it allhappens in 24 hours, whereas
ours happens in 28 days.
And like a lot of workenvironments are really like
kinda set up to every day is thesame because for men that set it
(29:19):
up, it was, but for women, Thatmaybe have a couple days a month
where they're just very likemaybe at work just struggling so
hard to pay attention andthey're in pain and they're
brain fogged and they're justnot productive.
like I've, some countries areactually starting to give, leave
or for like women, wheneveryou're at that point in your
(29:39):
cycle, and I just love that.
So I don't know, it justreminded me
Addi (29:43):
Totally, totally related.
And actually this is this is abigger tangent and we're not
gonna go there now, but on afuture podcast, and you and I
have also talked about this.
The whole just like cycles,cycles of being a human being.
Like there's so many cycles.
There's seasonal cycles, there'sphysical cycles, there's you
know, family life change cycles.
(30:04):
There's so much happening and wehave five days a week, 52 weeks
out of the year.
It's the same all the time.
And we expect this factorymachine existence.
In a, in a world that doesn'tlook anything like that.
Sarah (30:22):
Right.
Addi (30:24):
I have, I have a whole podcast
Sarah (30:26):
Oh my gosh.
I can't wait to hear it.
Addi, make, please make thatone.
Yeah.
I always tell people like we arenature and nature is cycles.
The tides go in and out and weare the same.
Addi (30:39):
it's, it's all moving all the time for sure.
Well, we should probably wrapthis one up.
cuz I would just, you and I, wecan just keep jawing on for
hours.
But, but thank you so much for,for coming and talking about
this.
This is huge and I think thisis, yeah, this is such a, such a
(30:59):
great topic because I thinkpeople really need to just be
aware, like this is real.
And, how it really affectspeople and it's not going away
anytime soon.
And so like, let's talk about itinstead of pretending it doesn't
exist.
So thank you.
Sarah (31:20):
Thank you for talking about it.
Like I think this is a beautifullike step in that direction to
have it on your podcast.
Addi (31:27):
Well, I will, I'll be talking to you in the future so
we can say goodbye for now forthe podcast.
Sarah (31:35):
Yes, I see you soon.
Addi (31:39):
Hey, so thanks for listening and let us know if you
have questions, comments, orsuggestions for what you'd like
to hear more about.
You can find all of the variousways to reach us on our
website@osiolabs.com.
That's O S I O L A B S.com.
(31:59):
Also, please make sure tosubscribe to the podcast on your
podcast provider of choice.
We'll catch you on the nextepisode.
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