September 12, 2023 • 27 mins
The word “leadership” is thrown around a lot. We’ve been talking about it a fair amount on this podcast as well. But what does that mean? For many people, it means a formal position or title, but is that really leadership? We’re going to look at what leadership means to a couple of people at our company who have different roles and experiences to see what we can find about the ways we think about leadership.
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Episode Transcript
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Addi (00:00):
Hi, everyone.
This is Addison Berry, andyou're listening to the Osio
Labs podcast.
The show that explores thequestion,"how can we create
sustainable businesses that carefor people and make the world a
better place?" On today'sepisode, I'm joined by my
colleagues, Amber Matz, andBlake Hall.
This is episode number seven,looking at the question,"what is
(00:21):
leadership"?
The word leadership is thrownaround a lot.
We've been talking about it afair amount on this podcast as
well it sort of keeps coming upwhen you talk about business.
But what does that actually meanto people?
For a lot of people, it means aformal position or a title, and
from my perspective, that's deadwrong.
(00:43):
That doesn't necessarily haveanything to do with leadership.
We're going to look at whatleadership means to a couple
people from our company who havedifferent roles and different
experiences with leadership andmanagement and the like.
So let's start with thefundamental question of what is
(01:05):
leadership to you, the two ofyou at least, like what does
that word mean to you?
Go for it.
The silence is deafening.
Blake (01:18):
The opposite of what we're doing right now.
That's my definition.
Amber (01:23):
Listening to others, waiting for someone else to take
the
Blake (01:27):
Yeah, exactly.
I probably would've had adifferent definition a few days
ago, but I cheated'cause I knewthis podcast was coming up and I
started reading Brene Brown'sDare to Lead this Weekend.
So that's like front of mind forme.
And I, I love the definition sheuses in that book.
So I'm gonna cheat and use that.
(01:47):
She says it's anybody who takesresponsibility for finding
potential in people or processesand has the courage to develop
that potential.
And I think that's a littledifferent than like, a while ago
we talked about Abby Wambach'sbook, Wolf Pack and, and she
sort of has a slightly differentdefinition, but I think it still
(02:09):
fits in the spirit of this.
And I like the idea that shecenters leadership around both
people and ideas, and I thinkthey're both important because
you can be a leader of people oryou can be, you know, a thought
leader as hokey as that termsounds.
But I think they're both thepeople that, that do a good job
of developing and shepherdingalong either people or ideas are
(02:33):
the people that I kind of lookat as leaders.
It's somebody that cares aboutnot just the results, but like
the actual process and how yougo about making a difference.
That's really interesting.
Amber (02:45):
I think I've been conflating leadership with two
things.
Managing.
Mm-hmm.
And herding cats.
And cats being a metaphor for.
People, people onlinespecifically, where you're just
kind of out there trying tofacilitate something, whether
(03:07):
that's a discussion or a meetingor a task resolving an issue,
you know, in like in open, inthe open source world or
whatever.
And you're putting yourself outthere, you're trying to
facilitate.
Some sort of moving somethingforward and you're trying to
encourage participation andyou're trying to provide a space
(03:30):
that's welcoming to others toparticipate in whatever process
you're trying to facilitate.
So that's kind of how my senseof leadership has changed.
I think I used to think of it inmore terms, like the, the quotes
you just mentioned.
(03:51):
And I've just gotten a lot morepragmatic about it over the
years.
And it's, it's a little, it'sless romantic.
It's, it's very practical andand so that's kind of why I, I
don't think of leadership somuch anymore.
Like, I don't think of it insort of these, maybe grander
aspirational terms because itjust feels like, A task, it just
(04:15):
feels like, yeah, I need to dothis.
I need to facilitate this.
I need to manage this process orthis set of tasks or, or
whatever.
And so maybe that's notleadership, maybe that's just
management and herding cats.
So maybe that's why confusedabout my own identity as a
(04:38):
leader is, maybe I have thewrong definition.
Maybe I'm thinking about it.
Not necessarily the wrong way,but maybe not in a complete way.
Yeah.
Blake (04:48):
I act, I actually think that's a much more mature view
of it, to be honest.
I think, I have a young daughterand I think when she thinks
about leadership, it's probablymore traditional.
Like who are the people incharge authority?
Um, authority, right, right.
Mm-hmm.
And, and I think historicallythat has tended to be sort of
like a.
(05:09):
You either have the traits of aleader or you don't.
And it's something that's likeinnate in your personal
character.
And I think the reality is thatit's that leader, real
leadership is actually much morea learned skill and something
based in practical applicationand hard work and difficult
conversations and all of the,the messiness that needs to
(05:29):
happen to make mm-hmm.
Progress.
Mm-hmm.
So I think thinking ofleadership that way is actually,
More realistic and healthierthan, Hmm.
Any other type of view of it asbeing like an authority figure?
Interesting.
Addi (05:46):
Well, I mean, yeah, it's an interesting question of the
difference between leadershipand management and those terms
are used completelyinterchangeably, in our society
and very often are purposelyconflated.
And again, always often linkedto this concept of authority
(06:07):
versus somebody earningleadership or somebody just
being a leader, whether or notanybody has given them the
authority to do so.
I think for me, the way I lookat leadership is when I'm
looking at someone else, notmyself in that role.
But when I look to other peoplethat I look to as leaders, I
(06:30):
think of people who I respectwho've earned my respect, and
therefore I am influenced bythem.
I've sort of given them theright to influence me.
And so I guess it's funny goinginto this, I was thinking like,
what is my definition ofleadership?
And I was thinking about like,and I'm like, wait, wait.
Some people think me as aleader, so what does that mean
(06:51):
from my perspective in thatrole?
And I guess from, thatperspective, from me being a
leader, my job is to earnrespect.
And there are different waysthat I am a leader and there are
certainly ways that I am not aleader.
And I think that leadershipwithin our team changes
(07:12):
continually based on knowledge,experience skills.
Like who do I trust?
Who do I trust in this momentfor this conversation and what
needs to happen and whoseinfluence weighs most heavily on
me in terms of moving forward.
And because I'm in a managementrole, many people default to
(07:33):
looking to me to provide that,and I kind of get a free pass.
For people to assume that I havethat power.
But like the truth of that, atthe end of the day, depending on
like in a, in a team call whenwe're talking about a particular
topic, I mean, Joe might be theleader, Amber might be the
leader you know, really theperson who is really familiar
(07:57):
with what's happening and reallyhas the ideas and that I'm like,
yes, what they're saying.
Rings true for me and I wannasupport them doing this thing
because I believe in it.
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
So I guess for me, that's whatleadership is and it's less
about management, it's lessabout getting tasks done.
(08:19):
I think people can be,inspirational and, and
cultivate.
Ideas and people, but they maynot be very good managers.
They may not be good taskpeople.
They may not be good cat herdseven.
Right.
But a good leader will get thosepeople will have those people to
help execute the things thatneed to happen.
(08:40):
Mm-hmm.
Instead of trying to do it allthemselves.
So it's interesting, Amber,you're talking about like doing
cat herding.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and like looking at sort ofyour role, sort of trying to
manage things, how do you lookat other people that you look to
as leaders?
Like what is it, what is itabout them that makes you feel
(09:01):
like they are a leader to you?
At least
Amber (09:05):
I look for people who.
Can discern the truth in asituation.
So that's, that's what I'mlooking for.
If I'm looking up to someone,I'm, I'm sensing that they know
the truth about the situationand they're telling the truth
(09:25):
about the situation.
They're privy to something, someinformation, or they have access
to people that.
Gives them the perspective thatthey need.
And I, and there's, and I havesome trust in them to lead.
Right.
So that's what I look for ispeople who, who can discern the
(09:49):
truth about the reality of thesituation.
And most of the time I feel likeI can manage my thing, my
responsibilities, and myself.
But there are certaincomplicated situations, you
know, whether that's in theworld at large or in my job, or
(10:09):
whatever it is I'm involvedwith.
Where I recognize I don't haveall of the information, I don't
have access to the people know Idon't have that.
And so that's what I look for ina leader is someone who is
telling the truth about thereality of a given topic or
situation.
And who's telling it?
(10:29):
Who's telling and who's tellingthat truth?
Addi (10:32):
I feel like, just from this conversation, I mean,
leadership is about trust.
Mm-hmm.
Right?
And you can't make people trustyou.
So, and there's this thing, sothere's authority.
And I'm gonna do what theauthority figure says because if
I don't, I'm likely to bepunished or there's some other
(10:53):
negative consequence to me notdoing that.
Versus here's somebody that Itrust and I'm going to do what
they say because I believe them.
Mm-hmm.
And I think that this is gonnabe a good thing for me and
whoever else is involved.
And so those are like twodistinctly different paths for.
(11:16):
Compliance or, you know,following mm-hmm.
Leaders can't, from myperspective of it, you can't
make, you can't become a leader.
You can't make yourself be aleader.
Mm-hmm.
All you can do is do what you doand then people will follow you
or they will not, they're eithergoing to believe you and trust
you or not.
(11:38):
And I think that's what's
Amber (11:39):
challenging for me We're been working for this company.
You know, we're distributed,we've been working from home.
The work that I do in the opensource space is all online, and
I agree with you completely likeyour, how you are a leader is
determined by who you'reinfluencing and who's following
you.
(11:59):
And it's really hard to see thatin the online space when you're
in an online community.
And I feel like I have a fewpeople that I interact with and
I consider them more colleagues.
I have no idea who I'minfluencing, who's, mm-hmm.
Making a choice based onsomething that I've said or
(12:22):
done.
In the online space I have nofeedback and it's so, such a
different situation from when Iwas younger, you know, 20 years
ago.
I am.
You know, in a, in a group, andI'm leading some youth and
they're like literally in frontof me looking up, looking to me.
Like I can see their facesthere, literally, physically,
(12:45):
they're looking to me for a, youknow, direction.
And it's such a, a differentsituation now to, you know, 20
years later and, and havingspent the last 10 or 15 years of
that.
Mostly online.
And and so I, I think that's whymy, definition or how I think of
(13:09):
myself as a leader has changed.
I have a hard time thinking ofmyself as a leader because of
that, because I, it, it just,it's hard for me to know if I'm
influencing anyone, or to whatdegree or.
If I'm being effective or not.
And so it's, it's kind of thislack of a feedback loop, you
(13:31):
know, that I think inhibits mypersonal development as a leader
or inhibits me from eventhinking of myself as a leader
or working on that.
Mm-hmm.
Because there's this lack offeedback.
And so if I guess I could seekthat out, I guess I could be
more intentional about that.
(13:52):
But, I haven't been, you know,and so, mm-hmm.
That's why I think of it inreally like kind of practical
terms, you know?
Right.
Like Right managey manage in amore of
Addi (14:05):
a management sense.
Right.
Because that again, it's likethis stated thing and like if
you're leading a group, right,and you've been told you are the
leader of the group and thegroup has been told you are the
leader of the group, then youare then, then you are.
Right.
But again, that's getting backto authority.
Everybody's been told that thisis a situation.
So yeah, it's interesting likethat because it's funny you say
(14:27):
like, I don't know who I'minfluencing or how much, or if
I'm influencing anybody.
And I guess for me, I feel likewe all influence people around
us every day.
Mm-hmm.
You cannot interact in the worldwithout having an impact.
And I think that's somethingthat gets lost very easily.
(14:48):
So I guess I just view this is athing that's always happening.
But I also get that feedbackloop thing is difficult because
you're Well, I don't know.
I mean then this gets to like ifyou are not a leader, does that
change how you behave in agroup?
(15:09):
So at work I am an authorityfigure and I try to also be a
leader.
So that's very much a role.
I feel the presence of when I'mput my work pants on and then in
other aspects of my life, it'slike, well, I mean, am I the
(15:31):
leader of this group right nowin this moment?
I don't really think that, Idon't feel that that's not how
I'm, you know, or this otherperson is sort of, I wanna do
what they're doing, so I'm gonnajust, I'm gonna be a follower in
this scenario.
With these people.
And so I'm curious about contextas well in terms of getting a
lot of feedback in certaincontexts and not getting
(15:54):
feedback in other contexts.
does that change your feelingsof leadership?
Which I guess from from Amber'sperspective, we are hearing
Absolutely.
Blake, I'm curious, like what doyou think about that?
It's like switch a perspective.
Blake (16:12):
Yeah, for sure.
I think context is hugelyimportant when it comes to how I
think about leadership.
I probably have the oppositeview, where at work I don't
particularly feel like much of aleader, necessarily, certainly
not consistently, I would say.
and then a lot of things in my,in my personal life that I'm
passionate about.
Part of why I'm passionate aboutit is because I care a lot
(16:34):
about, you know, whether it'sgolf or something else.
And, and I'm so obsessive aboutit that other people sort of
assume that I have moreinformation than they do.
which kind of puts, puts you ina leadership role.
I think in addition to thecontext piece, there's also
another aspect that we're kindof touching on, where sometimes
(16:56):
leadership is about gettingthings done.
And pushing a task forward.
And sometimes leadership isabout the relationship building
and the shepherding along ofpeople.
Mm-hmm.
And those are sort of twodifferent aspects of it that are
really context dependent, Ithink.
Mm-hmm.
I'm personally more comfortablewith leadership when it's more
(17:19):
of a relationship building typeof thing, and probably less
comfortable when it's more taskoriented.
And I don't know if that's just.
My, my historic roles at work orif it's a personality difference
or where I choose to investenergy.
But, those are the parts of, ofbeing a leader that I'm sort of
(17:41):
more interested in and probablymore comfortable with.
Those two things are probablyrelated, but, yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
I think it's a different way tothink about it too.
Addi (17:51):
Yeah.
So
Amber (17:52):
I agree with that completely.
And can I just add, like mm-hmm.
The, just thinking about, Imean, I was just thinking about
like a Drupal con situationwhere okay, maybe at one point
for 45 minutes I'm at the podiumand I'm speaking, and that's a
sort of leadership activity.
but then later in the, in thehallway That gives me, you know,
(18:15):
people can approach me or I canapproach others, and I switch,
my context has changed.
And now I'm more in relationshipbuilding mode and, and, and
hearing from people and, andtalking to them and seeing how I
can introduce them to otherpeople.
Make connections or just see,you know, what, what their needs
(18:35):
are.
So I, I'm thinking about it morejust even during this
conversation, I'm thinking like,you're either a leader and
maybe, and that activity canchange depending on your context
or you're a bystander and you'recompletely just, you may be
physically present in a space,but you're not.
You're just there and you're notdoing anything intentional.
(18:58):
And, and so I, I guess I dothink of myself as a leader
because contrasted to abystander, which I am definitely
not, I'm always engaging in someway or thinking about something,
you know, like I have thatmindset.
Or I'm doing something that's,that's intentional in, in a
(19:19):
certain context, which also isexhausting, but is like, that's,
that's my mindset in especiallyin a, in a group situation.
Addi (19:31):
So we're getting close to time, so I wanna start wrapping
up and with, with that, what Iwant to ask is we've, I mean,
we've talked about scenarioswhere don't feel like a leader,
do feel like a leader.
Do you want to be a leader?
It's like, and again, is thatlike a contextual thing?
Like, I want to be a leaderhere, but I really don't,
(19:54):
actively don't wanna be a leaderin these other contexts.
Is that a thing or is it like, Iwould just like to be a leader
more and have more agency inthat way or something.
generally in your life, How,where, how do you fall on that
scale?
Blake (20:11):
I will say there are certainly times where I don't
have any interest in any sort ofleadership whatsoever.
When it comes to parts of mylife.
Like things like the p t o at mydaughter's school, I, I'm happy
to not engage with if I don'thave to.
But for me it largely depends onhow I'm gonna define leadership.
(20:32):
Right.
And I think if we're talkingabout Being actively engaged in
relationship building andpushing along a process or
project that I care about.
If, if being engaged in that andhelping things move forward is
being a leader, then absolutely.
I'm more interested in improvingthose skills for the things that
(20:54):
I'm mm-hmm.
Actively invested in andinvolved with.
But also, like Amber's saying,it can be really tiring to do
that all of the time.
So I think it's important tohave some things that you're not
quite as mm-hmm.
Driven by that.
Let you unplug and and tune out.
Amber (21:12):
Yeah.
I would like to be morediscerning about what I'm i,
like I said, like it's sort ofmy default mode is to take
charge and like I said, that canbe exhausting because then I
just end up super busy and thethings that I would really like
(21:35):
to be doing are left by thewayside.
So I.
I would like to improve myleadership discerning skills,
like mm-hmm.
I would like to be moreintentional and set boundaries
and be more choosy and and theplaces where I would like to
maybe transition out of, Iwould, you know, like to be more
(21:59):
of a train the trainer sort of arole, If anything, like
facilitate other people steppingup.
That's what I would like toimprove on is not spreading
myself so thin.
Addi (22:12):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Protecting energy is, I mean,yeah, just generally a thing
that we all need help with inthe society, I think for sure.
I will say for myself that I.
Being in roles of authoritydoesn't require leadership.
(22:36):
Mm-hmm.
but it is a responsibility thatI feel particularly at work that
I do need to do that.
But it's not, you know, it'slike a separate, it's not a
separate thing, but it's a, it'sa, it's a different bucket of,
of intent and energy than myauthority role is.
(22:57):
Like I could be a CEO all daylong and not touch leadership in
my mind.
But I feel the obligation to it.
And, and the desire for it, Imean in the sense of I want to
cultivate the kind of company Iwanna work for.
(23:17):
Hmm.
And so in order to do that, Ihave to do that, right?
Like, I have to be part of thatprocess.
I can't just step, sit back andassume everything's gonna go the
way I want it to go.
But then, yeah, there are otheraspects of my life where I do
want to rest.
And also honestly, like,there're just places where I
(23:37):
wanna be inspired by someoneelse.
Yeah.
Like, I want to,'cause that's anexciting energy too.
Mm-hmm.
You know?
And like, that's such a coolthing to find a person or a
group of people typically thatreally just have such cool stuff
going on that really inspiresme.
Mm-hmm.
And then I'm like, yes, I wannado what you're talking about.
(24:00):
Tell me, you know, tell me whatto do here or show me mm-hmm.
The way that's a superregenerating thing.
So I feel like I need both.
Right.
I need to be, I need to havethat, which helps give me energy
for taking on the times mm-hmm.
Where people are looking to mefor that.
Mm-hmm.
You know, so it's like an, anenergy flow that kind of needs
(24:22):
to go back and forth.
So I think we need to be bothleaders and followers in our
lives and find like the rhythmand the balance with that.
Mm-hmm.
Because you also don't wannajust be a follower all the time
and never lead.
Mm-hmm.
Or maybe some people do, I don'tknow.
But I feel like that thatcreates its own different kind
of, of, of stagnant energy orsomething.
(24:45):
Yeah.
So being able to follow othersbut then, you know, turn around
and be like, Hey, I've got thisreally cool thing, and, you
know, other people get inspiredby you.
It's just like, it's such a,such a beautiful rhythm.
So I think having, hmm, both issuper important in our lives.
Amber (25:05):
Yeah.
Well said.
Addi (25:09):
Cool.
Well, we should probably wrap itup.
I'd be curious to revisit thisconversation like in a year.
Mm.
Because we keep having these.
Podcasts and we keep havingthese conversations and we're
reading books and we're talkingand thinking about new things.
Right?
And so it's like having thisconversation now and I know
Amber and I just did Who Do WeChoose To Be?
(25:31):
Which brought up a lot of thisYeah.
You know, leadership thing.
And then, Dare to Lead isanother book sort of on our
list.
And, I think we should probablydo that podcast relatively soon
and then keep having thisconversation because it's the
kind of thing that I thinkpeople just don't really think
about very much.
Try to even define or talk aboutunless you are in management or
(25:54):
a position of authority.
Right?
Right.
It's like once you're put in aposition of authority, now you
need to learn about leadership.
And I feel like that's a littlebackwards, right?
Like we should be having peoplethinking and talking about
leadership, and then thosepeople can move into positions
of authority.
That makes way more sense to me,so, mm-hmm.
(26:16):
I'm, I'm super curious for us tokeep having this conversation
and come back to this, you know,a year from now after we kind of
keep, keep bringing it up anddon't let it sort of float away
like it often does, so.
Mm-hmm.
So thanks for, for sharing bothof your, your insights on that.
Hey, so thanks for listening andlet us know if you have
(26:37):
questions, comments, orsuggestions for what you'd like
to hear more about.
You can find all of the variousways to reach us on our website
at osiolabs.com.
That's O S I O L A B S.com.
Also, please make sure tosubscribe to the podcast on your
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(26:59):
We'll catch you on the nextepisode.
Hi, everyone.
This is Addison Berry, andyou're listening to the Osio
Labs podcast.
The show that explores thequestion,"how can we create
sustainable businesses that carefor people and make the world a
better place?" On today'sepisode, I'm joined by my
colleagues, Amber Matz, andBlake Hall.
This is episode number seven,looking at the question,"what is
(00:21):
leadership"?
The word leadership is thrownaround a lot.
We've been talking about it afair amount on this podcast as
well it sort of keeps coming upwhen you talk about business.
But what does that actually meanto people?
For a lot of people, it means aformal position or a title, and
from my perspective, that's deadwrong.
(00:43):
That doesn't necessarily haveanything to do with leadership.
We're going to look at whatleadership means to a couple
people from our company who havedifferent roles and different
experiences with leadership andmanagement and the like.
So let's start with thefundamental question of what is
(01:05):
leadership to you, the two ofyou at least, like what does
that word mean to you?
Go for it.
The silence is deafening.
Blake (01:18):
The opposite of what we're doing right now.
That's my definition.
Amber (01:23):
Listening to others, waiting for someone else to take
the
Blake (01:27):
Yeah, exactly.
I probably would've had adifferent definition a few days
ago, but I cheated'cause I knewthis podcast was coming up and I
started reading Brene Brown'sDare to Lead this Weekend.
So that's like front of mind forme.
And I, I love the definition sheuses in that book.
So I'm gonna cheat and use that.
(01:47):
She says it's anybody who takesresponsibility for finding
potential in people or processesand has the courage to develop
that potential.
And I think that's a littledifferent than like, a while ago
we talked about Abby Wambach'sbook, Wolf Pack and, and she
sort of has a slightly differentdefinition, but I think it still
(02:09):
fits in the spirit of this.
And I like the idea that shecenters leadership around both
people and ideas, and I thinkthey're both important because
you can be a leader of people oryou can be, you know, a thought
leader as hokey as that termsounds.
But I think they're both thepeople that, that do a good job
of developing and shepherdingalong either people or ideas are
(02:33):
the people that I kind of lookat as leaders.
It's somebody that cares aboutnot just the results, but like
the actual process and how yougo about making a difference.
That's really interesting.
Amber (02:45):
I think I've been conflating leadership with two
things.
Managing.
Mm-hmm.
And herding cats.
And cats being a metaphor for.
People, people onlinespecifically, where you're just
kind of out there trying tofacilitate something, whether
(03:07):
that's a discussion or a meetingor a task resolving an issue,
you know, in like in open, inthe open source world or
whatever.
And you're putting yourself outthere, you're trying to
facilitate.
Some sort of moving somethingforward and you're trying to
encourage participation andyou're trying to provide a space
(03:30):
that's welcoming to others toparticipate in whatever process
you're trying to facilitate.
So that's kind of how my senseof leadership has changed.
I think I used to think of it inmore terms, like the, the quotes
you just mentioned.
(03:51):
And I've just gotten a lot morepragmatic about it over the
years.
And it's, it's a little, it'sless romantic.
It's, it's very practical andand so that's kind of why I, I
don't think of leadership somuch anymore.
Like, I don't think of it insort of these, maybe grander
aspirational terms because itjust feels like, A task, it just
(04:15):
feels like, yeah, I need to dothis.
I need to facilitate this.
I need to manage this process orthis set of tasks or, or
whatever.
And so maybe that's notleadership, maybe that's just
management and herding cats.
So maybe that's why confusedabout my own identity as a
(04:38):
leader is, maybe I have thewrong definition.
Maybe I'm thinking about it.
Not necessarily the wrong way,but maybe not in a complete way.
Yeah.
Blake (04:48):
I act, I actually think that's a much more mature view
of it, to be honest.
I think, I have a young daughterand I think when she thinks
about leadership, it's probablymore traditional.
Like who are the people incharge authority?
Um, authority, right, right.
Mm-hmm.
And, and I think historicallythat has tended to be sort of
like a.
(05:09):
You either have the traits of aleader or you don't.
And it's something that's likeinnate in your personal
character.
And I think the reality is thatit's that leader, real
leadership is actually much morea learned skill and something
based in practical applicationand hard work and difficult
conversations and all of the,the messiness that needs to
(05:29):
happen to make mm-hmm.
Progress.
Mm-hmm.
So I think thinking ofleadership that way is actually,
More realistic and healthierthan, Hmm.
Any other type of view of it asbeing like an authority figure?
Interesting.
Addi (05:46):
Well, I mean, yeah, it's an interesting question of the
difference between leadershipand management and those terms
are used completelyinterchangeably, in our society
and very often are purposelyconflated.
And again, always often linkedto this concept of authority
(06:07):
versus somebody earningleadership or somebody just
being a leader, whether or notanybody has given them the
authority to do so.
I think for me, the way I lookat leadership is when I'm
looking at someone else, notmyself in that role.
But when I look to other peoplethat I look to as leaders, I
(06:30):
think of people who I respectwho've earned my respect, and
therefore I am influenced bythem.
I've sort of given them theright to influence me.
And so I guess it's funny goinginto this, I was thinking like,
what is my definition ofleadership?
And I was thinking about like,and I'm like, wait, wait.
Some people think me as aleader, so what does that mean
(06:51):
from my perspective in thatrole?
And I guess from, thatperspective, from me being a
leader, my job is to earnrespect.
And there are different waysthat I am a leader and there are
certainly ways that I am not aleader.
And I think that leadershipwithin our team changes
(07:12):
continually based on knowledge,experience skills.
Like who do I trust?
Who do I trust in this momentfor this conversation and what
needs to happen and whoseinfluence weighs most heavily on
me in terms of moving forward.
And because I'm in a managementrole, many people default to
(07:33):
looking to me to provide that,and I kind of get a free pass.
For people to assume that I havethat power.
But like the truth of that, atthe end of the day, depending on
like in a, in a team call whenwe're talking about a particular
topic, I mean, Joe might be theleader, Amber might be the
leader you know, really theperson who is really familiar
(07:57):
with what's happening and reallyhas the ideas and that I'm like,
yes, what they're saying.
Rings true for me and I wannasupport them doing this thing
because I believe in it.
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
So I guess for me, that's whatleadership is and it's less
about management, it's lessabout getting tasks done.
(08:19):
I think people can be,inspirational and, and
cultivate.
Ideas and people, but they maynot be very good managers.
They may not be good taskpeople.
They may not be good cat herdseven.
Right.
But a good leader will get thosepeople will have those people to
help execute the things thatneed to happen.
(08:40):
Mm-hmm.
Instead of trying to do it allthemselves.
So it's interesting, Amber,you're talking about like doing
cat herding.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and like looking at sort ofyour role, sort of trying to
manage things, how do you lookat other people that you look to
as leaders?
Like what is it, what is itabout them that makes you feel
(09:01):
like they are a leader to you?
At least
Amber (09:05):
I look for people who.
Can discern the truth in asituation.
So that's, that's what I'mlooking for.
If I'm looking up to someone,I'm, I'm sensing that they know
the truth about the situationand they're telling the truth
(09:25):
about the situation.
They're privy to something, someinformation, or they have access
to people that.
Gives them the perspective thatthey need.
And I, and there's, and I havesome trust in them to lead.
Right.
So that's what I look for ispeople who, who can discern the
(09:49):
truth about the reality of thesituation.
And most of the time I feel likeI can manage my thing, my
responsibilities, and myself.
But there are certaincomplicated situations, you
know, whether that's in theworld at large or in my job, or
(10:09):
whatever it is I'm involvedwith.
Where I recognize I don't haveall of the information, I don't
have access to the people know Idon't have that.
And so that's what I look for ina leader is someone who is
telling the truth about thereality of a given topic or
situation.
And who's telling it?
(10:29):
Who's telling and who's tellingthat truth?
Addi (10:32):
I feel like, just from this conversation, I mean,
leadership is about trust.
Mm-hmm.
Right?
And you can't make people trustyou.
So, and there's this thing, sothere's authority.
And I'm gonna do what theauthority figure says because if
I don't, I'm likely to bepunished or there's some other
(10:53):
negative consequence to me notdoing that.
Versus here's somebody that Itrust and I'm going to do what
they say because I believe them.
Mm-hmm.
And I think that this is gonnabe a good thing for me and
whoever else is involved.
And so those are like twodistinctly different paths for.
(11:16):
Compliance or, you know,following mm-hmm.
Leaders can't, from myperspective of it, you can't
make, you can't become a leader.
You can't make yourself be aleader.
Mm-hmm.
All you can do is do what you doand then people will follow you
or they will not, they're eithergoing to believe you and trust
you or not.
(11:38):
And I think that's what's
Amber (11:39):
challenging for me We're been working for this company.
You know, we're distributed,we've been working from home.
The work that I do in the opensource space is all online, and
I agree with you completely likeyour, how you are a leader is
determined by who you'reinfluencing and who's following
you.
(11:59):
And it's really hard to see thatin the online space when you're
in an online community.
And I feel like I have a fewpeople that I interact with and
I consider them more colleagues.
I have no idea who I'minfluencing, who's, mm-hmm.
Making a choice based onsomething that I've said or
(12:22):
done.
In the online space I have nofeedback and it's so, such a
different situation from when Iwas younger, you know, 20 years
ago.
I am.
You know, in a, in a group, andI'm leading some youth and
they're like literally in frontof me looking up, looking to me.
Like I can see their facesthere, literally, physically,
(12:45):
they're looking to me for a, youknow, direction.
And it's such a, a differentsituation now to, you know, 20
years later and, and havingspent the last 10 or 15 years of
that.
Mostly online.
And and so I, I think that's whymy, definition or how I think of
(13:09):
myself as a leader has changed.
I have a hard time thinking ofmyself as a leader because of
that, because I, it, it just,it's hard for me to know if I'm
influencing anyone, or to whatdegree or.
If I'm being effective or not.
And so it's, it's kind of thislack of a feedback loop, you
(13:31):
know, that I think inhibits mypersonal development as a leader
or inhibits me from eventhinking of myself as a leader
or working on that.
Mm-hmm.
Because there's this lack offeedback.
And so if I guess I could seekthat out, I guess I could be
more intentional about that.
(13:52):
But, I haven't been, you know,and so, mm-hmm.
That's why I think of it inreally like kind of practical
terms, you know?
Right.
Like Right managey manage in amore of
Addi (14:05):
a management sense.
Right.
Because that again, it's likethis stated thing and like if
you're leading a group, right,and you've been told you are the
leader of the group and thegroup has been told you are the
leader of the group, then youare then, then you are.
Right.
But again, that's getting backto authority.
Everybody's been told that thisis a situation.
So yeah, it's interesting likethat because it's funny you say
(14:27):
like, I don't know who I'minfluencing or how much, or if
I'm influencing anybody.
And I guess for me, I feel likewe all influence people around
us every day.
Mm-hmm.
You cannot interact in the worldwithout having an impact.
And I think that's somethingthat gets lost very easily.
(14:48):
So I guess I just view this is athing that's always happening.
But I also get that feedbackloop thing is difficult because
you're Well, I don't know.
I mean then this gets to like ifyou are not a leader, does that
change how you behave in agroup?
(15:09):
So at work I am an authorityfigure and I try to also be a
leader.
So that's very much a role.
I feel the presence of when I'mput my work pants on and then in
other aspects of my life, it'slike, well, I mean, am I the
(15:31):
leader of this group right nowin this moment?
I don't really think that, Idon't feel that that's not how
I'm, you know, or this otherperson is sort of, I wanna do
what they're doing, so I'm gonnajust, I'm gonna be a follower in
this scenario.
With these people.
And so I'm curious about contextas well in terms of getting a
lot of feedback in certaincontexts and not getting
(15:54):
feedback in other contexts.
does that change your feelingsof leadership?
Which I guess from from Amber'sperspective, we are hearing
Absolutely.
Blake, I'm curious, like what doyou think about that?
It's like switch a perspective.
Blake (16:12):
Yeah, for sure.
I think context is hugelyimportant when it comes to how I
think about leadership.
I probably have the oppositeview, where at work I don't
particularly feel like much of aleader, necessarily, certainly
not consistently, I would say.
and then a lot of things in my,in my personal life that I'm
passionate about.
Part of why I'm passionate aboutit is because I care a lot
(16:34):
about, you know, whether it'sgolf or something else.
And, and I'm so obsessive aboutit that other people sort of
assume that I have moreinformation than they do.
which kind of puts, puts you ina leadership role.
I think in addition to thecontext piece, there's also
another aspect that we're kindof touching on, where sometimes
(16:56):
leadership is about gettingthings done.
And pushing a task forward.
And sometimes leadership isabout the relationship building
and the shepherding along ofpeople.
Mm-hmm.
And those are sort of twodifferent aspects of it that are
really context dependent, Ithink.
Mm-hmm.
I'm personally more comfortablewith leadership when it's more
(17:19):
of a relationship building typeof thing, and probably less
comfortable when it's more taskoriented.
And I don't know if that's just.
My, my historic roles at work orif it's a personality difference
or where I choose to investenergy.
But, those are the parts of, ofbeing a leader that I'm sort of
(17:41):
more interested in and probablymore comfortable with.
Those two things are probablyrelated, but, yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
I think it's a different way tothink about it too.
Addi (17:51):
Yeah.
So
Amber (17:52):
I agree with that completely.
And can I just add, like mm-hmm.
The, just thinking about, Imean, I was just thinking about
like a Drupal con situationwhere okay, maybe at one point
for 45 minutes I'm at the podiumand I'm speaking, and that's a
sort of leadership activity.
but then later in the, in thehallway That gives me, you know,
(18:15):
people can approach me or I canapproach others, and I switch,
my context has changed.
And now I'm more in relationshipbuilding mode and, and, and
hearing from people and, andtalking to them and seeing how I
can introduce them to otherpeople.
Make connections or just see,you know, what, what their needs
(18:35):
are.
So I, I'm thinking about it morejust even during this
conversation, I'm thinking like,you're either a leader and
maybe, and that activity canchange depending on your context
or you're a bystander and you'recompletely just, you may be
physically present in a space,but you're not.
You're just there and you're notdoing anything intentional.
(18:58):
And, and so I, I guess I dothink of myself as a leader
because contrasted to abystander, which I am definitely
not, I'm always engaging in someway or thinking about something,
you know, like I have thatmindset.
Or I'm doing something that's,that's intentional in, in a
(19:19):
certain context, which also isexhausting, but is like, that's,
that's my mindset in especiallyin a, in a group situation.
Addi (19:31):
So we're getting close to time, so I wanna start wrapping
up and with, with that, what Iwant to ask is we've, I mean,
we've talked about scenarioswhere don't feel like a leader,
do feel like a leader.
Do you want to be a leader?
It's like, and again, is thatlike a contextual thing?
Like, I want to be a leaderhere, but I really don't,
(19:54):
actively don't wanna be a leaderin these other contexts.
Is that a thing or is it like, Iwould just like to be a leader
more and have more agency inthat way or something.
generally in your life, How,where, how do you fall on that
scale?
Blake (20:11):
I will say there are certainly times where I don't
have any interest in any sort ofleadership whatsoever.
When it comes to parts of mylife.
Like things like the p t o at mydaughter's school, I, I'm happy
to not engage with if I don'thave to.
But for me it largely depends onhow I'm gonna define leadership.
(20:32):
Right.
And I think if we're talkingabout Being actively engaged in
relationship building andpushing along a process or
project that I care about.
If, if being engaged in that andhelping things move forward is
being a leader, then absolutely.
I'm more interested in improvingthose skills for the things that
(20:54):
I'm mm-hmm.
Actively invested in andinvolved with.
But also, like Amber's saying,it can be really tiring to do
that all of the time.
So I think it's important tohave some things that you're not
quite as mm-hmm.
Driven by that.
Let you unplug and and tune out.
Amber (21:12):
Yeah.
I would like to be morediscerning about what I'm i,
like I said, like it's sort ofmy default mode is to take
charge and like I said, that canbe exhausting because then I
just end up super busy and thethings that I would really like
(21:35):
to be doing are left by thewayside.
So I.
I would like to improve myleadership discerning skills,
like mm-hmm.
I would like to be moreintentional and set boundaries
and be more choosy and and theplaces where I would like to
maybe transition out of, Iwould, you know, like to be more
(21:59):
of a train the trainer sort of arole, If anything, like
facilitate other people steppingup.
That's what I would like toimprove on is not spreading
myself so thin.
Addi (22:12):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Protecting energy is, I mean,yeah, just generally a thing
that we all need help with inthe society, I think for sure.
I will say for myself that I.
Being in roles of authoritydoesn't require leadership.
(22:36):
Mm-hmm.
but it is a responsibility thatI feel particularly at work that
I do need to do that.
But it's not, you know, it'slike a separate, it's not a
separate thing, but it's a, it'sa, it's a different bucket of,
of intent and energy than myauthority role is.
(22:57):
Like I could be a CEO all daylong and not touch leadership in
my mind.
But I feel the obligation to it.
And, and the desire for it, Imean in the sense of I want to
cultivate the kind of company Iwanna work for.
(23:17):
Hmm.
And so in order to do that, Ihave to do that, right?
Like, I have to be part of thatprocess.
I can't just step, sit back andassume everything's gonna go the
way I want it to go.
But then, yeah, there are otheraspects of my life where I do
want to rest.
And also honestly, like,there're just places where I
(23:37):
wanna be inspired by someoneelse.
Yeah.
Like, I want to,'cause that's anexciting energy too.
Mm-hmm.
You know?
And like, that's such a coolthing to find a person or a
group of people typically thatreally just have such cool stuff
going on that really inspiresme.
Mm-hmm.
And then I'm like, yes, I wannado what you're talking about.
(24:00):
Tell me, you know, tell me whatto do here or show me mm-hmm.
The way that's a superregenerating thing.
So I feel like I need both.
Right.
I need to be, I need to havethat, which helps give me energy
for taking on the times mm-hmm.
Where people are looking to mefor that.
Mm-hmm.
You know, so it's like an, anenergy flow that kind of needs
(24:22):
to go back and forth.
So I think we need to be bothleaders and followers in our
lives and find like the rhythmand the balance with that.
Mm-hmm.
Because you also don't wannajust be a follower all the time
and never lead.
Mm-hmm.
Or maybe some people do, I don'tknow.
But I feel like that thatcreates its own different kind
of, of, of stagnant energy orsomething.
(24:45):
Yeah.
So being able to follow othersbut then, you know, turn around
and be like, Hey, I've got thisreally cool thing, and, you
know, other people get inspiredby you.
It's just like, it's such a,such a beautiful rhythm.
So I think having, hmm, both issuper important in our lives.
Amber (25:05):
Yeah.
Well said.
Addi (25:09):
Cool.
Well, we should probably wrap itup.
I'd be curious to revisit thisconversation like in a year.
Mm.
Because we keep having these.
Podcasts and we keep havingthese conversations and we're
reading books and we're talkingand thinking about new things.
Right?
And so it's like having thisconversation now and I know
Amber and I just did Who Do WeChoose To Be?
(25:31):
Which brought up a lot of thisYeah.
You know, leadership thing.
And then, Dare to Lead isanother book sort of on our
list.
And, I think we should probablydo that podcast relatively soon
and then keep having thisconversation because it's the
kind of thing that I thinkpeople just don't really think
about very much.
Try to even define or talk aboutunless you are in management or
(25:54):
a position of authority.
Right?
Right.
It's like once you're put in aposition of authority, now you
need to learn about leadership.
And I feel like that's a littlebackwards, right?
Like we should be having peoplethinking and talking about
leadership, and then thosepeople can move into positions
of authority.
That makes way more sense to me,so, mm-hmm.
(26:16):
I'm, I'm super curious for us tokeep having this conversation
and come back to this, you know,a year from now after we kind of
keep, keep bringing it up anddon't let it sort of float away
like it often does, so.
Mm-hmm.
So thanks for, for sharing bothof your, your insights on that.
Hey, so thanks for listening andlet us know if you have
(26:37):
questions, comments, orsuggestions for what you'd like
to hear more about.
You can find all of the variousways to reach us on our website
at osiolabs.com.
That's O S I O L A B S.com.
Also, please make sure tosubscribe to the podcast on your
podcast provider of choice.
(26:59):
We'll catch you on the nextepisode.
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