Drew Coffman: Leonardo Da Vinci, Roam Community, Nostalgia (V1)

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Norman Chella (00:18):
In this episode, we talk with Drew Coffman, who
is an optimist interested in theconnections between creativity,
technology and true meaning.
His YouTube channel aptly namedDrew Coffman contains videos
about Roam research.
From a beginner's point of view,trying to understand a different
features that the tool has.

(00:39):
And as someone who has been onTwitter for a very long time
drew as in multiple circles fromtech, Twitter, to Roam Twitter,
and many other things thatcaptures his attention.
So in this episode, we talkabout roamcult, The community
aspect of Rome and how that is ahidden feature of Roam research,
the impact of Roam research onthings like social media, our

(01:02):
ability to interact with eachother, through our notes, taking
us back to the nineties, justlike hypertext was.
The power of nostalgia and howit impacts us.
And Leonardo da Vinci, one ofthe greatest men of all time, in
my humble opinion, a trueRenaissance man, drew shares his
thoughts on why Leonardo were sorenowned throughout the world

(01:24):
for it is variety of interestsand answering the question, what
would your Mona Lisa be?
From possibilities of a Romegraph to all kinds of things, we
just went full nerd oneverything roam related.
So without further ado, let'sdive into my chat with Drew
Coffman.
I don't know how rowdy we'regoing to get, uh, talking about

(01:44):
Roam, um, because things tend toget pretty heated up whenever we
talk about something pretty,pretty damn exciting.
Um, yeah.
Uh, I'm not sure.
Uh, have you been, have you beenchatting with a lot of, um, few
Roamcult members recently justin general, uh, having
conversations about this becauseI'm sensing a very interesting

(02:07):
pattern here just from seeingthat.

Drew Coffman (02:10):
Uh, what, what, what pattern are you talking
about?

The energy level exponentially goes higher.
The more that you run out oftopics to talk about when it
comes to what you know, and thenall you're left with are the
commonalities, which are thetool Rome and how you use it.
And the future, like.
It is a very interesting filter.
Like people are very, veryfuture oriented.

(02:34):
So I was just curious to see,like, when you were talking
about remove other people, uh,what, what have you seen.

I really think that one of the defining
features of roam research is thecommunity that it's built on
Twitter.
Um, I'm like a long time Twitteruser.
I don't know about you.
Uh, but I've been on there for.
Far too long.
It's one of those things where,you know, it sends you that
like, congratulations, it's yourTwitter anniversary message
every year.

(03:01):
And like, my number is highenough that it starts to feel
like weirdly depressing.
Like, wait, why have I been onhere for so long?
And like, what am I, what have Ibeen doing with all that time?
Because I'm a very futureoriented person.
And I'm also a very communityoriented.
The person, I always want tomeet new people and do new
things.
And for a long time, my Twitterhas been like tech, Twitter.

(03:21):
You know, you kind of bubbleyourself into these different
little communities and assomeone who likes technology,
you know, it's the Apple,Twitter, it's the new tech
Twitter, but that community, Idon't know if you have been a
part of it isn't necessarily themost like.
Well, welcoming or gracioussometimes, especially about
their own stuff.

(03:41):
You know, like, Oh, a new Appleannouncement one's coming out
very soon.
Probably.
Well, one will have come out bythe time this is released.
I'm sure.
Um, unless you're really fast.
And, uh, and, um, you know,there's a lot of like cynicism
and skepticism about futureoriented stuff.
Um, in the, the Twitter bubblethat I had built.

(04:01):
And when I started finding Rome,You know, it, it's a, it's a
tool that requires you to reachout and find other people
because of its beta nature.
And every single person that Icame across was so kindhearted.
So interested in talking aboutthese things with me, there are
so many accounts that I've foundthat are, you know, probably
searching.
You know, at Rome research,Rome, research, Rome, cult, all

(04:24):
these things every day, just tofind new people to talk to.
Um, and that's one of the thingsthat made me so happy to have
found this tool is like, Oh, Ididn't just find a tool.
That's good for me.
I found like my people, I foundthe community.
That's good for me too.
So yeah, I definitely agree.
I mean, you know, there's a.
After having been in the Hardyskepticism of tech Twitter for

(04:46):
so long, it feels really good tobe in a space where everybody's
passionate about the future.
Not like Rose colored glasses,you know, optimistic either.
Like everybody understands thatthis is a beta, that things
change, whatever.
Um, but yeah, it's, it's reallycool to be a part of a
community.
That's just excited about seeingtechnology progress in a way
that like makes us all better.

yeah.
And too, I'm not sure whenexactly was it that when you
discovered Rome, but I noticedthis when I joined Twitter only
last year.
Uh, mainly because my foray intoTwitter was the podcasting
space.
So not tech, Twitter, uh, and.

(05:29):
Uh, podcasting and tech they'rethey're a little bit, they're,
they're a little bit similar interms of the speed of
development, like more and morecompanies coming in or new
non-sports, et cetera.
So there are some overlap.
And then from there, I start toknow these names like notable
tech figures or people in the VCspace, or, you know, the
entrepreneurs who are doing longtweet, tweet threads about how
they're doing, how they'refeeling, et cetera, et cetera.

(05:51):
Uh, and then Rome came about.
So it's, it's interestingbecause not only do you have.
Active discussions on whateverspace that you're interested in
on Twitter that Twitter allowsfor that to happen.
But it also really caters forRome's biggest attractive point,

(06:12):
which is the filtering and theattraction of a specific kind of
person or a specific kind ofpersonality.
So, you know, it's, it's justfun to be part of this journey.

Do you remember where, and you've, you've talked
about this before, but do you,do you remember specifically
where you first saw Rome?
Like, was it on Twitter and how,like, who was it?

uh, I, I remember very specifically, uh, it was,
uh, it was me on Twitter and Isaw a post by Nat, uh, not a
license and he did a blog postabout it.
You know, it's that, it's thatvery popular blog post about,

(06:53):
Oh, about room research and whyI use it, et cetera, et cetera.
And it was shared by, uh,someone who works at Buzzsprout,
who is here.
He's a head of marketing atAlvin, Brooke.
Um, and I know Alvin from,because we're both involved in
podcasting, so we see eachother's names often.
So it was, it was my first timeseeing someone who's involved in
podcasting, just someone who isjust behind the microphone,

(07:15):
talking all of a sudden, beinterested in.
Personal knowledge management.
Like I never would have thoughtthat that would collide.
Like those two groups of peoplewould ever collide.
I never would've thought that hewould be interested in PKM, but
there he was commenting on it.
So him commenting on that,attracted me to it.
And I didn't really think muchof it at the time until he was

(07:36):
telling me about all the.
The ability to remix blocks, etcetera.
And then I thought, okay,there's some potential there.
And then I tried the, the tooland then look where we are now.
So, yeah.
Do you, do you remember when,uh, how you discovered it?

No, and that's what I, I, I should really go
back and try to find it, butthat's, you know, I didn't
follow Nat.
I didn't know who Connor was.
I didn't know any of thesepeople in this world.
Like my Twitter feed today andmy Twitter feed back when I
first found it, which was aroundMarch, maybe February.
Is completely different.
So, you know, I'm like, man, I'mscratching my head, like who in

(08:11):
my weird tech Twitter bubblethat mostly talked about, you
know, the new iPhone, uh, wasinterested in Rome research and
was talking about it.
Um, so I, I should, I should goback and find it, but, you know,
I was one of those people that.
When I first found out aboutRome, I downloaded it.
Well, I didn't download it.
I opened the website, I signedup for it.
I gave it a little try and thenI just totally bounced off of it

(08:34):
for the first week, two weeks,three weeks, something like
that.
Um, I have never really been aperson that is like super
systems oriented.
Um, Which is actually why I likeRome is because it allows me to
be sort of chaotic.
Um, but I had come from like,you know, notion Evernote, uh,
to do this, like these toolswhere like, Oh, I know how this

(08:55):
thing works.
It requires me to put all thisstuff in there to make it really
functional.
And I'm probably not going to dothat.
So I think I'm going to leaveuntil maybe there's some more
features that compel me to comeback.
And it was really, it was, itwas like, unfortunately, you
know, 20, 20 craziness, like thequarantine that really made me
reconsider it.
Um, right before things reallystarted getting locked down here

(09:18):
in LA.
Uh, I thought, you know, Thiswould be this, this feels like a
good time to like organize mythoughts more because I may have
in the future a bit more freetime than I have usually a bit
more time inside, a bit moretime with books.
So let me, let me try this toolagain.
Um, and it just like blew mymind when I realized that there

(09:41):
wasn't like one way that it wastrying to make me use it.
There was.
In infinite amount of ways.
And I just had to figure out theone that worked for me.
Um, and that's like somethingI've really noticed over and
over again in the way that Italk about Rome and the people
that like seeing helped by thestuff that I'm sharing is.
I am by no means the biggestpower user of the tool.

(10:02):
I'm probably on like the low endof using everything, you know,
every once in a while I'll see atweet.
I'm like, Oh yeah.
There's like mermaid.
I don't even know what mermaidstands for, but Oh yeah.
That, that might be cool tolike, try that out sometime.
Like I have no use for that kindof stuff on a day-to-day basis.
And I like, forget it exists,but.
The way that I use things isexactly the way that my brain

(10:25):
works.
And every once in a while I'llget a tweet or a YouTube comment
or something.
When I talk about Rome sayinglike, Oh, that's really great.
Like I've been using Rome for along time, but I've been trying
to do it this way that somebodyelse taught me or this way that
this other app taught me.
And I just need to, I like theway that you just said it makes
me realize I can do it the waythat my brain works instead of

(10:48):
the way that.
The system, you know, isintended quote unquote, because
in Rome there, isn't a way thatthe systems necessarily intended
and like that's what rules somuch.
So yeah, it's been, it's beeninteresting to see how, you
know, over the course of time, Isort of had to like figure out
my own way into Rome.
And I think that's probably thesame for, for quite a few

(11:10):
people.

Yeah, uh, for, for, uh, yeah, definitely for a
number of people.
And it is intimidating in, inthe very beginning because
you're met with the strangestthing ever when you open it up
for the first time, which is adate and a blank page, like.
What the hell?
Uh, I mean, we've had, uh, aprevious guest, uh, Stan from

(11:32):
episode one described it aslike, you know, I'm not, I'm not
like a teenager, uh, writinginto my diary for, uh, for
school.
I'm not trying to write myemotions into this.
Why the hell is there a dailynotes page?
And then all of a sudden, it,it, it came to realize just how
powerful it was.
Uh, so that was, that was reallyinteresting that the fact that

(11:53):
we have to try to articulate.
The need to release previoussystems that, that we've been
conditioned into doing for ournotes ticking system, because
we're trying to take that fromother apps and then putting that
into row, like we will beattracted with the, with, with
how powerful Rome can be.

(12:14):
We, you know, all this buzzwordswords and, Oh, it's, it's,
there's no structure orsomething like that.
And they were met with this andall of a sudden they tell you
anything is accepted.
And you fall into to twocategories of people, the ones
who were extremely exploratory,that they will try everything.
And then they'll realize thatthat is accepted.
And then the others who requirea little bit more guidance in

(12:35):
that I am now left with a notetaking system where everything
is accepted.
What do I do?
And the confusion comes from a,from a mix of there's like an
expectation at the end.
Like I'm supposed to writeeverything in there maybe, or
hopefully something will comeup.
But romantic, let it grow overtime.
Uh, so there's like a shift in amindset, uh, when trying to

(12:56):
redefine the word note-takingsystem and then Rome is helping
us with that.
Um, so it's nice to see thatwhen, you know, you were doing a
YouTube videos and I'm seeing ifyou had a YouTube as, as well,
uh, bring up ways to explainRome.
Uh, I was watching your YouTubevideos just today.
Actually, I just, you know, ofcourse the prep to prep for
this, but, but also just out offun, like purely out of like, Oh

(13:17):
yeah, I want to search Rome.
What happens?
Right.
It's really nice.
Like you're one of the mostwelcoming people when it comes
to explaining Rome.
Um, whenever we talk aboutintroducing Rome to others, I'm
not sure what's your take onthis, but do you find that a lot
of people always try tointroduce the tool Rome as a

(13:43):
productivity booster from aproductivity boost perspective,
as opposed to just a place towrite.

Yeah, I think I, yeah, like it's obviously I
don't have my thoughts fullyformed as I, I stumbled a little
bit, but one of the things thatI, I felt when I first saw Rome
is.
Like I've downloaded a billionnote, taking apps on my phone,
you know, there's every singleone that's ever come out.
I probably have in my downloadhistory on my iPhone.

(14:12):
Um, and I've tried a bunch ofdifferent, you know, plain text
files marked down, whatever, onmy, on my computer as well.
And like, if you asked me if youput a gun to my head right now
and asked me, like, tell meexactly what the rum research
homepage says right now.
Like, I couldn't tell you, like,I don't, I don't remember
exactly what it says, butwhatever it was.
You know, the only thing thatlike stuck in my mind was the

(14:35):
little, like, uh, arrow,diagonal, arrows, like linking
thoughts to each other.
Um, and, and I realized likethat is such a important.
Distinction from every othernote taking app that that's all
that I'm going to tell peoplewhen I try to explain it to
them.
Because if you say there's thisnew note taking app, then

(14:57):
everyone says, gee, I've ha Ihave plenty of those.
And you know, a lot of friendsand very like.
Power user oriented.
People are just using Applenotes now because it's such a
good tool that, you know, itworks for them.
Uh, and if you say it's aproductivity thing, people
already have a productivitysystem it's 2020.
Like, you know, they figured outthe thing that works for them.

(15:19):
There's been many, many yearswhere they've decided if they to
do as person or a things personor an Omni focused person or in
a sauna person or whatever itmight be.
But when you say to people.
This is a tool that is reallyhelpful to you because it lets
you connect your thoughts andlike, Bubble up your thoughts
that you may have forgottenabout in a way that you wouldn't
usually do that really clicks,because I don't think that

(15:41):
anyone in the world is, islooking around and saying, you
know what?
I love about computers and youknow what?
I never go go.
You know, what I hope never goesaway is the file system like
files and folders.
I love them so much.
I love them in real life.
I mean, I'm sure there'ssomebody, but you know, that's
not the typical, that's not thetypical feeling.
And in fact, my, my wife, who islike, You know, uh, the, the,

(16:07):
the very polar opposite of mewhen it comes to technology, she
like has no interest in newtech.
You know, she's very happy withher systems.
She's very happy with her setup.
She does not care about the newiPhone or the new.
AirPods or a new app.
It just doesn't register asinteresting or intriguing to her
this weekend.
She downloaded drum or shestarted using her own research

(16:29):
because she's working on thislong form creative project.
And she's been just writing allof these things that are just
kind of disappearing into Applenotes.
And I said to her, like, I, Iknow that I know how you feel
about technology.
I'm not trying to pitch yousomething.
Give me 30 seconds to just showyou how this tool works and how
I use it.
And if it's interesting to you.
I'll I'll help you, like, youknow, import stuff into it.

(16:51):
And I just showed her the graphand I clicked on one of the
notes and showed her how itexpanded to other notes.
And it just instantly like, wasrecognizable to her as helpful
because she's been writing thesedifferent, you know, bits and
pieces over the last six monthsor so.
And then they just sort ofdisappear into an archive of
files and folders on your phoneor your Mac book or wherever.

(17:13):
And you sort of forget that youwrote it and you know, when you
see stuff.
Like connecting together.
I think that it works as such ahuge motivator in a way that we
don't fully understand like the,you know, the thing that I was
also doing in tandem withbuilding my initial Rome
research graph was growing asourdough starter and they felt

(17:35):
very similar to me.
Like I was every day feedingthis little starter so that I
could make bread and caring forit, you know, like giving it a
daily dose of life.
And then I was also.
Feeding my note collection andletting my thoughts in our
connect in a way that, you know,let it grow and grow.
And as I watched my roomresearch graph get bigger and

(17:57):
bigger.
It wasn't like that was actuallyunlocking something in my brain.
It wasn't like, Oh yeah.
Now I have 200 notes now I'veloved.
Like, it didn't matter, youknow, like it's, it's the little
connections that matter.
It didn't matter how big mysourdough starter was, because
all I needed was enough to makea loaf of bread.
Right.
But like just watching itexpand, made me feel like

(18:20):
something good was happening.
And it's, it's like a positivefeedback loop where as I watched
it grow and grow, I wanted toput more and more in.
And that's what I watched mywife do this weekend is.
You know, she put a couple ofnotes in, and then she saw the
connections and she's like, Oh,what about this?
And started putting those in andsaw the connections.
And all of a sudden she probablyhad 40 or 50 different notes

(18:40):
that she had imported into Romethat we're all interconnected
and really beautiful ways.
And I know that now she has abetter.
Like starting the starting placefor the next time that she sits
down and writes.
Whereas before every time thatshe sat down and she had to
start with a blank page, nowthat blank page is eliminated
and she has all of thesedifferent places to start from.

(19:02):
And like, that's the power.
So none of that can be said as.
Note-taking tool or productivitytool.
Like it's, it's somethingbigger.
It's, it's such a tool forthought, um, that I try to
convey that whenever I talkabout it, because I know that
that's the thing that peoplesay, yeah, I don't have any of
that.
I don't have that downloaded onmy phone anywhere, you know,
nothing is helping me think inthat way.

(19:24):
And that sounds worthwhile togive a try, even though I've
downloaded 500 note taking apps.

Yeah, I, maybe I may not have done a it as much
as.
You have in terms of number ofapps, trying to set up some kind
of new system or testing out newapps here and there.
Um, just to find an app thatreally resonates with how I
think, uh, uh, until it came toRome and, and, and on the, on

(19:50):
the note of trying to define itas a note taking tool or a
productivity tool, And I alwaysstill feel like this is true
that labeling it as such, it canbe dangerous because your
subject or the tool itself issubject to the rivalries of
potential competitors, which arenot even competitors.
Like they're not even in thesame field.
Like there are other tools likeEvernote or notion or whatever

(20:13):
that have different ways to takenotes or even collaborate, or
even do ABC or XYZ.
They have a different set offeatures that.
Put together become that onetool.
The thing is with Rome, I feellike because the features are so
expensive that it becomes easilycompared, like we try to

(20:34):
simplify our understanding of itby boiling it down to, Oh, it
takes notes.
It's a note taking tool or, Oh,it helps you become more
productive.
It's a productivity tool.
It's more like, yes and no.
It's like, yes.
And much more.
So like over time, there'sbecoming more, there are more
discussions on Twitter talkingabout how Rome is giving birth

(20:56):
to a new genre or a field oftools to harness that.
Uh, that output, that ability tothink better to connect better,
or, well, basically what waswritten on the website for room
research, a network thoughttool, and that's honestly quite
a mouthful to say.
Uh, so it's, it's also not thatit still sounds a little bit too

(21:19):
technical in, uh, in my

Definitely.
Yeah.

So I, I wish that we could find a way to better
articulate the value that isprovided because like, like you
said, your wife is an S.
You know, as interested in thetechnical abilities of network,
thoughts, uh, tools as you are,but you showed her a demo and
all of a sudden she couldprobably write a full book.
Um, I can only imagine, so yeah,it's marketing.

(21:46):
Rome is a whole other story.

Yeah, competitors is an interesting thing too,
because you know, If you talkabout it online, just like any
tool, you know, everybody sortof gets into these little camps
and into the thing that worksfor them.
And people ask, well, have youtried this?
Have you tried that?
And for me, you know, I'm, I'msuper happy if people find like
another system that's similar innature that works for them.

(22:10):
But the thing that like drew meto roam research, isn't just
like the tool as it existstoday.
It's the fact that it has acompelling vision for the future
that I think they can actuallyaccomplish.
And, you know, whenever note wasfirst, like starting to get
really big on the scene, youknow, years and years ago, um,
the CEO said somewhere.
I forgot the exact quote, but itwas something like, this is

(22:32):
going to be a hundred year app.
Like that's my goal.
My goal is for this to be aroundfor the next hundred years.
And even if we don't havecomputers as we have them today,
like I want Evernote to exist.
And I thought that is reallycool.
Like when I'm thinking aboutstoring everything that I care
about in a space, uh, I wouldreally like it for that, that

(22:52):
tool to be around for a longtime.
And then that CEO left Evernote.
And then I realized that is notgoing to be a hundred year tool
and I deleted it and I didn'tever use it again.
Um, because you know, like I waslooking for that vision, the
reason that I was using the app,um, that platform was because of
this, this long-term vision and.

(23:14):
That, that inkling, which, whichdefinitely felt a little more
like marketing speak.
The former CEO of Evernote seemslike a rad dude that had that
idea.
And, you know, unfortunately itdidn't work out for that, that
use case.
Like I very much see in Rome andI, I, I trust Rome to enact
that, um, more than Evernote wasable to.
I also think that we're at a, ata point where.

(23:36):
The world feels a little moreflat as far as technology, you
know, like we've been usingFacebook for a long time.
We've been using Twitter for along time.
Like at the beginning of the appstore, everything felt like,
well, in two years, this couldall be gone.
And now that doesn't feel quiteright.
It's true anymore.
Like we we've come to expectthat these tools that we're
using today will be around forthe longterm.

(23:57):
And, um, you know, like a yearor two ago, I scanned my great
grandmother's journal into, um,like a computer, you know, it
was at this physical notebookthat my grandmother gave to me,
uh, from her mother and Iscanned it in and thought, I'm
so glad that now, like I havethis preserved.
And that maybe futuregenerations will have this

(24:19):
preserved.
And there's a, there's a smallpart of me.
I try not to like, think aboutit too much because then it kind
of makes everything weird.
But there's a small part of methat thinks like this collection
of notes that I'm making, like,could be around for generations.
And I, and I hope that it islike somebody I saw said on
Twitter, you know, like, Theseare tools that we can use to
like talk with futuregenerations.

(24:40):
And that's a really specialthing because you know, when my
great grandmother wrote thatjournal, I don't know if she had
that thought that.
I would be holding it one day.
Like the world felt so fleetingthrough all of history that no
one necessarily thoughtdefinitely my thoughts are going
to be preserved, but I, I havethe privilege because of the

(25:01):
technology that we have of, ofbelieving that that's actually
possible for me.
And that I can create thisdatabase, this graph of
information, that if someone isinterested in it, Long after I'm
gone, they can still access itand sort of have this
conversation with me.
So, you know, like it's cool tobe building something that feels
long lasting, um, but alsointimate at the same time, you

(25:24):
know, like I'm not trying topublish some book and make it a
New York times bestseller.
I'm trying to publish mythoughts for the people that
deeply care about me or want tolearn about me.
Um, even when I w when I can'trespond back, you know?
And so that's like, That's whyI'm not going to try a roam
competitor, right.
Is because I don't think thatany of those people are thinking

(25:44):
of that extremely long game.
When I know that Connor is, youknow, like I know that the Rome
research team is dedicated tobuilding something that will
continue to evolve and expand,not just over the next 10 years,
not just over the next 20 years,but over potential lifetimes.
Like I know that.
The goal and that's the power oftext that still hasn't really

(26:06):
been fully understood or sussedout because of the fragility of
paper.
And now that we're over thathump, you know, something new
can happen and it feels likeRome is the right tool to really
capture that.

Yeah.
And then on that note, uh,having this kind of conversation
that goes far beyond longterm,where the factor of us being
alive or not does not play apart any more is what makes even
just thinking about that vision.
Very exciting.
And I think I know which tweetyou were talking about.
Cause it was by, uh, one of themembers of their own research

(26:42):
team, Matthew McKinley, whotalked about having a a hundred
year conversation with theirfamily.
Uh, just, just the weight ofthat sentence blew my mind and a
shout out to Matthew for that,uh, great guy.
Um, and, and my perspective onthat is the ability to digitize
one's legacy is such a powerfulopportunity that we've never

(27:07):
really seen that in any othertool up until now.
And there are ways to try tosalvage that and.
Like you said the FrigidaireTheo paper means that sooner or
later, these notebooks, thesejournals may rot or may
disintegrate and you may not beable to salvage them anymore.
Um, but now that you have Rome,it's possible to, you know, save

(27:29):
them and recover them.
Uh, I would think that doingsomething like saving someone's
journals or notebooks, it feelslike you're saving someone's
life.
And normally it's maybe it's todo with the way that I view.
People's relevance is to one'slife as the memories that we
make, therefore, we feel thatthey are alive.

(27:52):
So how should we celebrate themeven after their death?
Or how should we think of themfrom all the lessons that we've
learned as such all of these,like, you know, relationships
and they're, they're sort oflike organic linked references.
If you think about it that way,but if you put them all together
and then you save that and yourecovered it and you can share
that with the rest of humanity,um, And Rome is paving the way
for that eventually to happen.

(28:12):
I think that is such a beautifulthought to have.

Yeah.
I mean, I can actually speak tothe fragility of paper directly
because unfortunately, and thisis a sad story, but
unfortunately, a few years ago Ilost my house to a wildfire.
And, um, I, you know, this, thisgiant fire swept through the
town that I was living in and myhome burned up.
I woke up at five in themorning, packed a very small

(28:38):
bag.
My house was full of smoke.
Got out of there.
Um, did not take much.
And, you know, I had thisbookshelf that had a bookcase of
all of my journals over the lastfew years.
You know, all those thoughts aregone now.
And, um, you know, same thingfor my wife's journals.
You know, there were lots ofvery precious memories that just
don't exist anymore because theywere, you know, precariously in

(29:02):
one single space.
Uh, and they, they didn't, theydidn't last the.
They, they didn't stand the testof time.
Uh, and you know, that that'ssomething that's really powerful
about technology and the waythat we can use tools to like
upload our thoughts, offload ourthoughts, not just to have a
single copy, but createsomething bigger is not having
to worry about that anymore.

(29:22):
And, um, I used to be a reallybig fan of paper and pencil.
You might be surprised to hearthat I don't really journal with
paper anymore I had thatexperience did not necessarily
set me up to want to keep doingthat.
Um, but I, I read this book thisyear, um, called, Oh man, I
always forget the name of itbecause it's it's Oh, I it's

(29:44):
called a human as media and itwas recommended on Twitter by
David Parell.
Um, and have you read this book?
Have you heard about this book?

uh, no, I feel like I've heard the title, but I
don't know.
What's it about.

Yeah, it is a fascinating book.
And basically the very shortversion of it is, um, this
person kind of sets us up assaying, you know, there have
been these evolutions ofhumanity and in media over time,
you know, way, way back in theday, very early on in
humanities, like.
You know, evolution.

(30:16):
Um, somebody was able to figureout writing.
And when we were able to figureout writing, there was this
emancipation of likecommunication because now, you
know, everybody could write,everybody could, could put
something down on a piece ofpaper and, and preserve it in a
way that wasn't possible withoral language.
And then as time went on, therewas another evolution with the

(30:38):
printing press, because now youdidn't just have to have a
single copy of something like mynotebooks in my home, but you
could, you could very evenlydistribute words and, you know,
knowledge could get out muchfaster, but in both of those
situations, there's still afragility, right.
Because.
You know, not everybody knew howto write.
Not everybody had access tothat.
And then even if you were ableto like publish something and

(31:00):
print it, not everybody can havethat distributed to them.
And you know, I think about howthroughout all of history there
have been, I am sure many, many,many incredible voices of
wisdom, sages, you know, peoplethat had so much beautiful
knowledge that impacted so manypeople, but their ideas and
their thoughts were never ableto get out of their community.

(31:22):
You know, like they shared itwith their people and then they
died and then maybe there issome oral tradition passed down,
but then it was gone and reallyto let thoughts leave a true
legacy, there has to be thislong distribution of thoughts.
And in the book, human is mediaargues that we are once again in
one of those really pivotableonce again in one of those

(31:44):
really pivotable.
Wow.
Once again, in one of thosereally pivotal moments in that.
You know, at first there wasthis evolution of writing.
Then there was this evolution ofpublishing.
And now there's thisemancipation of thought where I
don't have to be some big shotto get my words printed in a
book and distributed through theworld.

(32:05):
I can just do it by goingonline.
And creating a blog.
I can just do it by tweeting.
You know, there's this evendistribution now of people's
thoughts that, you know, you nolonger have to have the
connections you no longer haveto be in the right spot.
You just have to have aninternet connection in Rome
feels like the answer to that ina way that blogs aren't in a way
that social media platformsaren't because we already have

(32:27):
seen how many of our thoughtsthat we've put online over the
last few years.
Are gone forever because theplatform is deleted.
You know, I was just, I tweetedat Connor just recently because
he has this great, like early,early, early tweet talking about
how his mother, um, is animmigrant.
And like, I think it's a pictureof her like selling hotdogs or

(32:48):
something, you know, like reallythis interesting story of like,
You know, I am the Americandream because of what my parents
did.
And the photo was a white froglink.
That's gone, you know, and Ihave plenty of those memories
too.
I have blogs that are deletedoff the internet because the,
the, the platform shut down andthat isn't.
That isn't the evolution, right?

(33:09):
Like the evolution isn't youhave the ability to share your
thoughts, but it's going to besomewhere that might not be
around for too long.
Like that's actually worse thanpaper because at least with
paper, you know, I can go downand find a copy of a book from
1930 still and hold it in myhands.
If it, if it was able to make itthis long, where now there's no
copies of the stuff on the, onthe internet that's been
deleted.

(33:29):
But with Rome, it's very clear,like, yeah, this is going to be
around.
I can download it.
I can have it.
It can be online.
Like.
You know, something to really,truly push that concept forward
of like preservation andcontinuity and like
communicating with futuregenerations needs to be able to
say, this is not going anywhereand we can promise you that it's

(33:50):
not going anywhere.
And when I post on Facebook oreven when I tweet on Twitter, I
don't necessarily feel that way.
So that's not it.
Right.
And when I put something in myRome graph, I'm very, very
clear.
This is going to be around foras long as I want it to be.
And it'll be around longer thanme, you know?
And that that's, that'ssomething that feels really
special that you like.

(34:11):
Can't really put a price tag on.

Hmm, then you'd be very particular about what
you put into your own graphthen, because if you have the
very intention of defining thelifetime of your own graph to be
beyond your bodily life.
Then you want to make sure thatthe thoughts, the blocks, the
notes that you're taking in areeither evergreen or they will be

(34:40):
retained or relevant even for,in even decades and even a
century after which would beyeah.

Definitely not.

Oh, definitely not.
No.
Okay.

put my finger up.
Yeah.
It, you know, one of the thingsthat I really noticed with my
great-grandmother's journal isthe things that I remember the
most are the most mundane.
Like, you know, I don't want toread about her, you know, I
mean, I do want to read abouther deep philosophical thoughts,
but I also really love, um,hearing that she went on a date.
And the guy pissed her off.

(35:12):
Like that makes her human to me,you know, like that's really
sweet and special.
And you know, that's not a storythat I've been told.
It's probably not a story thatshe told her own daughter.
Um, but because it's in thisjournal, it's preserved through
time.
So I mean, yeah, I mean, and I'mnot, you know, I'm not expecting
someone to be pouring over myRome research graph.

(35:33):
And that's, I was trying to say,like, I don't try to put that in
the, in the forefront of mybrain, because then it'll get
weird, you know, and I'll starthaving this, this weird voice
of, Oh, I have to be this wiseperson now, you know, like half
the stuff in my room is crazy,but you know, if somebody cares
about me, Then that might beinteresting to them.
And it's interesting to me, it'scertainly going to be
interesting to drew 10 years inthe future or 20 years in the

(35:56):
future.
I'm going to be able to learn alot from the cadence and the
tone and the feelings and thethoughts and the energy of the
person that exists here.
Just like if I go back and lookat tweets 10 years ago, I'm
like, wow, that's a verydifferent person, you know?
And do I agree with them everytime?
Absolutely not.
Like I think that would be aproblem, right.
Um, is it embarrassingsometimes, maybe, but that's

(36:17):
like part of growing, you know,especially if you want to grow
around community and grow inpublic, you just have to sort of
be okay with that.
But yeah, no, I, I, I try notto, you know, put on the like
Sage mantle because I want it tobe a place where.
You know, I can just be myselfand, and put down the things
that I care about.
Um, but I, but I definitely amlike mad at myself for not

(36:41):
having better book notes overthe last 10 years, you know,
like I've read so many booksand, you know, they were
highlights and I put thehighlights in Kindle and now
it's gone for some reason or,you know, um, Nobo or whatever.
Amazon or whatever Barnes andNoble's version was, you know?
And it's like, yeah, that's allgone.
I, I wish that I had, um, notonly like the highlights, but

(37:01):
the thoughts, because I wishthat when I had read those books
10 years ago and I revisit it, Icould remember how that version
of me felt when I was readingthat kind of thing.
You know?
So to me there there's so muchlike beauty and context in that
type of stuff.
I am still very excited aboutlike seeing more public book
notes.
I would love to, when I read abook, be able to go.

(37:22):
And look at other people's Romegraphs and see what they got out
of it, you know, like that feelsso profound and important to me.
So it's not just aboutnecessarily the legacy.
Um, but it's also about like theinteractivity between people
that are, that are building thisand caring about this right now.
Um, and obviously we're justscratching the surface of like
public roams.
Um, and I think there's a lotmore to be done, uh, in the

(37:43):
future of that.

Yeah, I've been thinking about that.
Uh, public roams in thebeginning, there were a few
discussions about how roams whenRome graphs, when they are made,
public are very difficult tonavigate.
If you are not a Chrome user, soaccessibility then becomes a
problem.
If you have the intention ofwanting to share such public

(38:06):
knowledge, because it's a publicgraph after all, uh, with the
rest of the world, how do youmake it as easy to access or as
easy to navigate as possible?
Or do you even consider thatbecause you have to care for
things like the exploratorybehavior of many different users
who stumbled into the graph andthey're like, Oh, what's this
about?
Or what's this book notes about?
Um, so I've been contemplatingthat.

(38:27):
Um, a lot, uh, recently,especially when we're coming up
to things like paid roam graphsor premium room graphs, um, and,
or public graphs that serve aspecific purpose.
Like for example, this show hasits own, uh, Roman fem graph.
So like all the transcripts are,are linked.
Uh, so that's, that's brought upsome very interesting behaviors.

(38:50):
So I.

think that you, I think you hacked it sort of to
have the left sidebar be kind ofan index, right.
Or like, you know, I know thatit's like a daily note way down
at the bottom that says starthere.
And I think you can also use theindex right.
To like kind of navigate a biton the Rome FM public

Yeah, so I made it so that I did not use the
daily notes page at all.
Like as soon as you click on,uh, the main room, if I'm graph
link, it will immediately go tothe page, start here and.
Um, the reason why I chose to doit like that was because since,
since this is a, and we canprobably talk about this and

(39:29):
maybe you have some thoughts onthis.
Um, since this is a, a publicgraph that is derived from my
private graph, then it isfiltered information, which
means I already have anintentional structure or I'm
trying to narrow the differentways that a person might be able
to explore the graph.
So.
I will try my best to alwayssend people to the start here

(39:49):
page first.
And then from there, they can dowhatever they want, uh, that is
becoming hard to do becausepeople are still cheating.
And the way that it would dothat is like, for example, this
entire graph is public.
And I would have notes like onthe fly as I'm talking to guests
and these episodes aren't evenout yet, but I would let people
know, Hey, I talked to thisperson before and it would

(40:09):
search the name.
On the graph, like they cheated,like they, they looked ahead.
I'm like, Oh shit.
Um, so I had to deal with thatin some way.
Uh, but, uh, other than that,it's, it's interesting because
the behaviors of people whostumble into graphs are very
similar to hypertext websites,where you try to explore all
these different notes, all it'sdifferent, you know, digital

(40:30):
gardens, et cetera, et cetera.
But Rome has that extra layer oflinked to references.
Unthink references.
Uh, blocks that can bereferenced, uh, once multiplayer
room comes out, uh, and manymore.
So I hope to see that more inthe future and, Oh yeah.
So on the, on the thing that I,I wanted to hear your thoughts
on this.
So, um, if you think of a, ifyou think of a two by two square

(40:58):
and on one hand, it's a publicgraph, public graph, sorry.
On one hand, it's.
A yeah, sorry.
On one hand is a public graph,private graph.
And on the other side is apublic graph, private graph.
So each square represents thepotential relationship between
two types of graphs, a publicgraph, or a private graph.

(41:21):
There were discussions about howwould you define the
relationship between these twographs in each of these squares?
So, as an example, oncemultiplayer Rome comes out and
we have the ability to referenceother people's blocks.
Say that a public graphreferences a block from another
public graph, then you can sayon the no, uh, my book notes

(41:44):
graph references, your booknotes graph.
And we created discussionbetween the both of us about our
interpretation of this same bookthat could be possible.
Right.
So you would have a publicdiscussion private to public.
Means that it's a filter wheremy private notes are only for
me, but I will only filter out acertain percentage of my notes

(42:07):
onto a public graph.
So it's like a display or likean exhibition right.
Public to private is when youhave a public that's pository of
notes and you want to bring itinto your own private graph for
further processing or furthersummarization, et cetera.
And private to private is veryclose to like a Twitter DM.
It's just a private messagebetween two.

(42:28):
You know, private users andtheir ideas of like, Oh, what if
I just like, copy paste D blockriff for you in Twitter.
And then you can just like, lookat the secret message I sent for
you or something like that.
So we're seeing possibilitieslike that.
And I'm curious to hear yourthoughts on what's a, what is
exciting you the most aboutmultiplayer Rome?

(42:49):
Since this is something thatwe've never really seen yet, uh,
up until he will come out.

Yeah, totally.
I mean, it is a big part of whyI care about Rome in the first
place.
Um, I, I have known for a longtime that I'm the kind of person
that.
When I do something creative,I'm doing it to build, create,
I'm sorry.
I'm doing it to build community.
I don't like making things in abubble.

(43:15):
It's not interesting to me.
Like, you know, if I had towrite in private or secret and
not share with anybody, I justwouldn't do it because that's
not, that's not interesting.
Um, I want feedback.
I want community.
I want people to, to read orcare, you know, read the things
that I write.
Look at the things that I'mmaking care about, the things
that I care about.

(43:35):
That's like a huge factor forme.
And so, you know, it's, it'spart of why anything that feels
single-player even reading abook.
Is is like, not as good, likeI'm the guy that, you know, in
my friend group, I'm alwayslike, Oh, have you read this?
Oh, have you seen this?
You know, like, I'm that kind ofperson, you know, Oh, actually I
just read this thing, you know,like my wife jokes about it all

(43:57):
the time that I do it, maybe alittle too often, especially
with her who has to deal with me24, seven, three 65, you know?
Um, but it's just, just like theway that my brain works.
I like sharing, like sharing isan important core.
Belief a core factor of why I doanything.
And so the idea of multiplayerRome is really important to me
because I think that it, it kindof unlocks the next step of sort

(44:21):
of unlocks the next step of whatI've always wanted.
Like blogging to me.
I actually started a blog rightbefore I found Rome.
Um, you know, 20th blog I'vestarted.
Some of them have beensuccessful.
Some of them have been lesssuccessful.
The last one that I had was onmedium, it was doing really
well.
I just ended up hating mediumbecause it like got crazy.
Uh, and so, you know, anotherreason why I'm really liking

(44:42):
Rome is like, I'm pretty muchdone hitching my wagon to these
free tools.
So that like, I just can't knowabout, I want to be able to pay
money, even if it's a lot ofmoney to somebody, because I
feel much more confident in thefuture of that, if that's what
I'm doing.
So anyways, I started this blog,but what I was really trying to
do before I knew the term wasmake a, um, a digital garden,

(45:05):
you know, like I didn't, Ihadn't heard about that.
I didn't know what that was.
But, um, I'll, I'll find apicture and send it to you or
something, but I deleted it nowbecause I'm like, Oh no, Rome is
what I really wanted to do.
But I started building like avery nineties vibe, like under
construction, Wiki, like I hadthe like gifts of the
construction guy digging andstuff, you know, um, in every

(45:25):
single article that I waswriting, every single thought
that I was writing, I waslinking to other thoughts.
And I had all of these like metacategories.
And I was like, I don't, none ofthese, you know, blogs are
always sorted by time.
None of these have anything todo with time.
I'm not writing some hot take onthe newest thing I'm writing
about the way that we interactwith each other.

(45:45):
I'm writing about, you know,this I'm writing about that.
So I don't care about datehierarchy.
I actually care about like theintimacy and the interconnected
nature of these differentthoughts to one another.
I'm I'm describing Rome and I'mdescribing digital gardening,
but it was before I had foundRome, it was before I had heard
the term digital gardening.
And, and so, you know, The, thething that I liked about it was

(46:10):
that I could share them withpeople on Twitter.
The thing that I didn't likeabout it was that no one could
do anything with them.
You know, like blogs,notoriously, you know, like
their comment sections are dead.
If they exist at all.
Sharing a blog on Twitter, youget such little interaction
because you know, you have tomake them click through and do
this different stuff.
This was before I had foundvisa, who is, you know, like the

(46:33):
King of like actually don'tblog, just make these gigantic
Twitter threads that you canlike keep updated all the time,
which I've started doing moreand more because I've been
inspired by that.
But the thing that gets meexcited about Rome multiplayer
is.
Being able to do that thing thatI was trying to do on my own,
this digital gardening, butdoing it in a way that's

(46:57):
communal like literal, communalgardening, you know, to be able
to, I actually don't know.
I really care if it's public,private, private, public,
whatever.
Um, I had heard Connor, I thinka long time ago, say that like
maybe what you would end upbeing able to do in the future
is like, Say this page andeverything that it links to is
public.
Like that would make a lot ofsense to me.

(47:17):
Like anything that this pagetouches make public, you know,
like all this stuff that's notrelated to don't make public,
whatever.
Like I could see myself doingthat.
I would very happily just makemy private room, a public room.
I don't care.
It's not like I have any secretsinside there.
I just don't think that it's ofmuch value in its current form
because it's so chaotic, youknow, like, um, What's his, uh,

(47:39):
what's his name?
Max?
Maximillian something.
Um, I want to know his name,max.
Yeah.
Maximillian Shoals, um, postedon, on Twitter recently, like
this beautiful index page thathe made that like made his
private Rome very like, um, Youknow, recognizable and
searchable and like, I want tobuild something like that.
And then maybe I'll toggle my,my private room public.

(48:02):
Uh, but, uh, the thing that getsme excited is, is the
collaborate, the collaboration.
So I don't want you to take mythoughts and put them in your, I
don't want you to take mythoughts that are in my silo and
put them in your silo.
I want us to have a shared spacewhere we can do it.
You know, like that's, that'sthe thing that really gets me
excited about this.

(48:23):
And, you know, I feel that wayfor.
Um, book notes.
I think that's a great use ofit.
Every time that I read a book,my book notes are very
scattershot.
You know, I'm not the kind ofguy that's taking notes every
single way.
It'll be like chapter two, abunch chapter 14, a bunch, you
know, like I'm, I'm that kind ofperson where like, I only really
want to put into things thatlike really resonated with me,

(48:44):
but.
I really want to know whatresonated with you.
So if, if chapter eightresonated with you in a way that
it didn't impact me, I will beimpacted because you, a person
that I care about was impacted.
So like that's the kind oflevels of collaboration that I
want to see.
And when I'm writing on athought or thinking about
something, and I realize thatyou've written about the same

(49:04):
thing or thinking about the samething.
I want to know what you'rethinking about right now.
Like that's why I use Twitterall the time.
Anytime that I watch a movie,anytime that I read a book,
anytime that I find somethingfascinating, I do a filter
follow search, which means thatI see only the people that I'm
following.
And I just type the word inyesterday.
I had rewatched a bit of themovie, the last temptation, uh,

(49:26):
and it's like one of my favoritemovies, Martin Scorsese.
And I just typed in lasttemptation, you know, saw who I
was following that, um, hadtalked about it before and lo
and behold, um, one of the.
The, the new acquaintances.
I found a guy named Don maxlerhad not only posted about last
temptation, but I posted thevery scene that I was thinking
about.

(49:46):
And had his own thoughts aboutthat.
And now that, that moment whereI watched something that
impacted me, isn't just a momentwhere I was impacted.
It was a moment where I wasimpacted and I know this other
person who I'm getting to knowwas also impacted.
And the thing that he took awayfrom the scene was slightly
different from the thing that Itook away from the scene.
And it just, it grows and growsand grows.
It builds and builds and buildsin those levels of understanding

(50:09):
and those levels of community orthe parts that I'm I'm
interested in, in, in Twitter islike, Terrible for this, you
know, like it's not, I don't, Ican't have a good conversation
on Twitter about this.
You know, I had to like, youknow, let's see his, his tweet
was from, uh, March, you know,so here I am.
Some guy being like, Hey,remember that thing you talked
about in March, I'm bringing itback up.

(50:30):
Like, that's not whatnecessarily Twitter's for, but
if I were to resurface a note inyour Rome graph from six months
ago, you would get it.
You'd be like, yeah, that'sawesome.
That's why I put it there.
You know, that's not necessarilywhy people are tweeting.
But it's why they're using theirown graph.
So because the context andbecause the intent is
rediscovery, when someone elserediscovers your thought and

(50:52):
wants to build on it, it feelsnatural in a way that no other
platform really allows for that.
So, you know, that's a big partof why I think it's important is
because that concept ofresurfacing is not only like
possible.
But it's encouraged andexpected.
So, you know, as we get thesemultiplayer instances, I know
that they won't only exist in amoment, but they can be

(51:15):
long-term projects that newpeople are constantly finding
constantly adding to.
And that feels really coolbecause I don't want to think
about something, pick it up.
And put it down and never thinkabout it again.
I want somebody to remind me ofthat thing that I cared about
and bring their own insights tothe table and like resurface it
back into my mind.

we're at this point, we're redefining social
media or social interaction atthis point, because if, if Rome
is going to have multiplayerRome and I mean, totally the rum
research team can correct me ifI am getting this completely
wrong.
But if we are able to referenceour people's blocks, it would
mean that there is one giantuniversal graph.

(52:00):
That is the earth.
And then each and every block isunique in itself.
Therefore that allows us to dothings like referencing other
people's blocks.
If you redefined social media,from this perspective, we can
now interact with each otherthrough not the persona that we
have put on our social mediaprofiles, but our most intimate

(52:24):
forms of ourselves.
Other than our physical bodies,like in person, which are our
notes.
So like, if, for example, youhave, you know, notes on this
movie, and then I have thisnotes on these movies on this
movie and, you know, they arestill just as relevant as, uh,
as they are to you right now.
Like your thoughts on thatmovie, et cetera, instead of

(52:44):
tweeting at you, instead ofemailing you, instead of
messaging you on Facebook and belike, Hey, remember that movie
10 months ago?
Uh, I can.
Put a block under your block orreferenced or block directly
like tap right into your notes.
Like directly of course we haveconsent.
Um, and from there we strike upa conversation that may bring up

(53:06):
something that was of interest,or maybe still is, but isn't
your priority right now, butrediscovery, which is probably
a, a feature in long-forgottenin most social media platforms,
rediscovery, exit, maybeYouTube, like YouTube is a
different thing.
Um, That putting, putting thatfirst, before any other piece of

(53:26):
social media, uh, where you needto be looking at the most latest
tweets or the most trendy ofthings where we have to be like,
you know, people are trying togain for attention, which is a
whole different thingaltogether.
I really want to see that happenbecause I was on the verge of
not really wanting to be onTwitter or on any social media

(53:47):
platform.
Cause I've had very badexperiences with.
This lots of fake personas orpeople not really being on this
or not really sharing so much oftheir, of their knowledge that
they're willing to reciprocate avalue.
But now that we have a placelike Rome, or at least this
small circle, uh, in Twitter,people are willing to give back.

(54:09):
And, uh, that is a beautiful,beautiful thing.
I would love to see like Connor.
Um, I'm not sure if fightingagainst Twitter's the right
word, but setting.
Foundation for something likeTwitter interactions, but with
blocks instead of tweets, likeif we can get blocked threads,
like block threads on a feat,like if you, if you imagine a

(54:31):
screen and instead of dailynotes, pager, sidebar, then
you're a right bar.
You have your daily notes, page,your sidebar, and then a feed of
blocks.
Like, yeah.
I mean, we're seeing otherpeople like.
Throwing out ideas like, Oh, canwe subscribe to someone's graph
and then see latest blocks beingbuilt or something like that.
That'd be pretty cool.

(54:52):
I'm really excited for that.

I, I mean, you know, the, the closest thing we
have to like a public realm isTwitter, because it's all of
these people's blocks or tweets,you know, like kind of just
scattered throughout time andpreserved, but you know, there's
no auto-complete right.
Like I am an avid Twittersearcher.
I probably use Twitter as asearch engine.
As much, if not more as I use itas a social network, but it's

(55:15):
horrible, you know, like I haveto do 50 searches to find the
thing that I'm looking for.
Cause I have to try a word, Oh,maybe this other word.
Oh, this so that, you know, likeit's, it's very challenging
where in Rome, you know, I canusually find the thing that I'm
looking for in one or two triesbecause I'm just, you know, auto
completing until I find thething that I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm
trying to get at.
But yeah, I mean, I, I totallyagree with you that, that

(55:38):
concept of like, Multiplayer inthat aspect of being able to
find other people's thoughts ona thing is so valuable.
Um, I wish that teenage me hadthat because when I was younger,
like as college aged me, becausewhen I was younger, um, I'm a
Christian and I used to run aBible study.
And I was actually in this sortof weird phase where I had this

(55:58):
little community built and thereare all these people, but I
didn't really have like a churchthat I was a part of.
Um, and, and because of that,and I had to run this weekly
Bible study and I had to talkabout something and I would
always feel like stressed aboutthat.
Like, I don't have like a normalchurch.
That's like, Telling me to readsomething or, or sharing
insights with me.
So I had to, I downloaded abunch of podcasts and I would

(56:20):
listen to a bunch of things andI would try to take as many
notes and find some insightsthat I thought were worth
sharing with the group.
But what if I had a bunch ofpeople that I, I valued their
thoughts that were alsoChristians that had rooms.
That when I thought I wanted, Idon't know what I should talk
about today.
I don't know what I'm talkingabout this week.

(56:41):
I wish that I could talk aboutthis subject.
I would able, I would be able tolook at these public rooms and
find people's notes on there.
Their own Bible studies, theirown experiences, searching
through the Bible.
That would be so much morevaluable to me than having to
find five.
Big shot, pastors that havepodcasts and regurgitate their
thoughts to the group that Ihad.

(57:03):
I never felt good about that,but you know, this is, it's sort
of going back to that concept inthat book.
I was talking about human asmedia, you know, when you get
into worlds where, when you getinto worlds where like
communication is not only.
Important, but, but like sacred,you know, I didn't feel

(57:23):
comfortable as a 19 year oldmaking up thoughts about the
Bible.
I actually think now that I, Ishould've felt okay doing that,
but I didn't, you know, I wantedsomebody who is mentoring me and
leading me into that.
But because we have only giventhe right to publish to the
people who are privileged topublish, there's only this small

(57:44):
amount of information thatactually is like, The
information that we can take andthe information that we can
glean from.
Whereas now, as you know, theworld has already changed so
much since that, you know, thatwas 10 years ago, I'm 30 now.
Um, and the world has alreadychanged so much that.
You know, I would probably, if Iwas in that same situation, just

(58:04):
like Google stuff and find, youknow, the weird little Christian
bloggers that are doing theirown thing and having their own
thoughts.
And I would be much happier,like taking their insights, but,
but still there's the layer ofdisconnect where those aren't
people that I'm talking to,those aren't people that I'm in
communication with.
But you know, if, if there arepeople that.
I have already found so manylike-minded people, not just

(58:24):
that care about technology that,but care about spirituality
through Rome, because if you'rethe kind of person that's
willing to dump large amounts ofinformation into a, you know,
networked thought space, you'reprobably the kind of person that
like I want to hang out with.
Right?
Like that's, that's sort of howwe all feel is like, Oh my
people like you, if you're doingit this, like, we have a lot in
common, um, in.

(58:46):
If you're doing it, you'reprobably also doing it because
you want to talk with otherswhere, when you have a blog, you
don't necessarily flip thatswitch where you're saying, and
now please talk to me.
Like, there's still a little bitof this.
Like I'm putting this out intothe world and I get to choose
whether or not like Ireciprocate and we have these
conversations back and forth,but I haven't met anyone in Rome

(59:08):
that has felt that way.
That's like, no, actually, youknow, I'm just putting my
thoughts out here, please.
Let's not like take this thelevel further up to discussion
and, and that that's asignificant change, right?
Like the fact that the peoplethat are building roams today at
least are all willing tocontinuously engage in
conversation and move thoughtsforward feels way different than

(59:30):
blogging feels way differentthan tweeting feels way
different than publishing abook.
And I think that there are somany people who benefit from
that, that, that covering thatlayer of like, Mentorship or
thought leadership that comesfrom that, where they say, okay,
now I'm not alone in now.
Not only am I not alone, but Ican now talk to these people
that are feeling similar ways asme.

(59:50):
You're talking about similarthings that I'm talking about.
Like there's just, there's somuch value there to unpack that
is like, It's almost hard totalk about because we don't have
a context for it.
There's there hasn't been awebsite or a platform or a
social network or a blogging,whatever that has really like
taken that on in the way thatRome can in the future.

Norman Chella (01:00:13):
yeah.
The the possibilities, uh, as aresult of the tool coming in,
allow more voices to really,sorry.
No, let me reword that.
The possibilities that Romeprovides as a result, I feel
like it brings reassurance.
And that's huge.
Like that is huge.

(01:00:34):
And I mean, you've, you've saidthat we've started a few blogs
before.
Uh, I have, uh, as well, and Ihave a few blogs that have, you
know, uh, died, but I've let itdied on purpose because with the
amount of embarrassment and withthe amount of weird stuff that I
was writing on there, I wouldrather let it perish than have
it shared with the rest of theworld.
But.
But I remembered that part oftrying to start something like

(01:00:56):
that, because embarking onsomething like creating content
or, you know, writing an articleor publishing a blog post, or,
you know, just continuing a blogover time, whatever it can,
whatever it may be.
There's this it's like facing inthe mirror and asking yourself,
like, am I worth listening to,or, you know, are people going
to.
Are people going to resonatewith me, there's a lot of fears

(01:01:17):
and really exposing thesethoughts that you tried your
best to convey.
And then now you're subject tothe spotlight where other people
can read it and they can commentnegativity, or they may not
think that your voice isvaluable enough that they will
just ignore you, et cetera.
So lots and lots of potentialdoubts and worries, but with
tools like Rome and even notjust Rome, even just other tools

(01:01:40):
like notion, uh, or.
The acceptance of peoplepublishing book notes online.
Like that's technically also arecent thing.
I don't think I remember anyonedoing that 10 years ago or 20
years ago.
Um, it's great to see all thispublished online.
It's great to see all of thiswillingness to have such.

(01:02:02):
I call them informal mediums andinformal being relative because
they are relative.
They're relatively informal whencompared to large published
books or books that are pushedby large corporations or large
publishing houses, because thatreally sets the sets the tone
for what a traditional thoughtleader would be.

(01:02:23):
Because, you know, as long asyou have a book, you are like a
full-on, Oh, you're a leader.
Everyone should listen to you,et cetera.
So.
If you have something like row,man, people can resonate with
that and people can resonatewith your notes and your
messages and your thoughts onyour block, your blocks, and
talk to you.
Even if it's just a fewconversations here and there,
like you have done your job andyou've done it very well.

(01:02:44):
So I do have to give massiveprops to Rome for not even its
intended feature, but thereassurance that chaos is fine.
Like chaos is accepted.
And chaos can be shared by otherpeople and chaos can be marketed
or a shared view to people.

(01:03:05):
Like people can realize thatthey look at Rome cult or this
culture, or this group of, uh,what, what, what does Connor
call the magical trash pandas,trying to mix all these notes
together and just junkyard ofweird, chaotic thoughts and be
like, Hey, join us.
You're perfectly fine.
You fit the right criteria.
You should be.
Uh, okay.
Have you ever asked people.

(01:03:26):
Maybe who are not involved intheir own research yet?
What do they think about, uh,roam cult or even just on people
surrounding the tool?

Drew Coffman (01:03:35):
Yeah.
I mean, I think that there'slike a coming from tech,
Twitter, there's thisskepticism, um, that surrounds
anything new that has aCatholicism around it.
I mean, I think also.
It doesn't help that a lot ofthe people that are part of it,
um, we're probably just asoptimistic and positive about
notion before they like dumpedit and came over here.

(01:03:57):
So it's like, well, didn't youjust do this about something
else?
Like, I, I, you know, we're soaccustomed to that.
Um, especially because we sortof live in that world where.
Even though I said, we expectour like, tools to exist, like
Facebook and Twitter for thelongterm.
You know, there's always the newapp that comes out that we're
like, is this going to be aroundin six months?
I guess I'll go and register myname there.

(01:04:19):
Um, but I don't know if it'sgoing to actually be around.
And then you kind of have togauge like, is everyone using
it?
Are they not, you know, like Ihave a.
You know, library if dead apps,I'm sure.
Um, you could create like afolder.
That's like a graveyard for allthis stuff that people tried and
failed.
Um, so I think there's askepticism there.
I have been impressed andinterested to see that that

(01:04:40):
skepticism is, um, kind oflifting a little bit faster than
I anticipated.
Um, even in like the tech,journalism crowd.
Um, there's a guy named CaseyNewton.
Is that his

Yeah.
Casey nation.
Yeah.

Casey.
Yeah.
Casey Newton, who.
Um, just posted recently thathe's been using the verge quite
a bit.
I'm sorry.
He's been using Rome researchquite a bit.
And, uh, and I thought that hewould probably be one of those
people who was like, this isweird.
You know, this is the, the newhotness that's going to be gone
in six months.
Um, but you know, I think thathis tweet was like, I can't

(01:05:14):
imagine writing anywhere elsenow that I've, I've used this.
Um, and I think that's what, youknow, anybody who's accustomed
to writing on the regular, um,sees the benefit of this so
quickly in a way that doesn'texactly.
Work with other tools.
Um, I think that there's plentyof value in a lot of the other
tools.
Um, and I think that there'sgood.
Like there's good fanaticism,like, you know, I, I imagine

(01:05:36):
that it feels great to be a partof their own research team and
see the amount of people thatare just happy and excited and
talking and making memes and,you know, all these things like
it has to feel good as a personwho's making this.
So, you know, I don'tnecessarily think that.
The problem is that people getfanatic.
I think the problem is thatpeople get fanatic and then the

(01:05:57):
tool dies anyways.
You know, like I always thinkback to, um, Google wave, like
Google wave was my first likeheartbreak where I was like, Oh
my gosh, I can see the future oftechnology in this.
You know, like, you know, it waspre Google docs.
So it was like collaborative.
Note-taking doing all thesethings in one spot.
You know, every tech articlethat I read about it was, you

(01:06:17):
know, Super positive and like,wow, like they demoed it and it
works the way that they said,and we actually were able to try
it and it's not like horribleand buggy, and this is amazing.
And then it was gone, you know,like it didn't matter that
people loved it.
It didn't matter that it changedpeople's lives, you know, same
thing for like, Google reader.
It didn't matter that it was agood product that was used every
day.
It just gone all of a suddenit's gone.

(01:06:39):
And, you know, there are peoplethat have used note taking apps
or people that have usedproductivity tools.
There are people that have usedall kinds of different things,
social networks, whatever.
And no matter how many peopleuse it, no matter how many
people wanted to keep using it,it just disappears because
that's what tech does sometimes.
Um, but I think that it'sbecoming clear that Rome doesn't

(01:07:01):
fit in that category.
It's not.
The app, that's trying to get 1billion users and if it doesn't
get them, you know, it's goingto close down.
Like it's not the thing that hasto make all of this money back
because it took too much VC.
Like they have a clear, cautiousfuture plan that they are going

(01:07:21):
to act out.
Um, and I think that justchanges.
People's understanding of like,Oh yeah, this is actually good.
And you know, the people thatseem like they are the most, um,
Anti roam, Colt as it's called,I think are just people that
like chose another tool.
And they're like, no, but likemy tools better, you know?
Um, I think you're always goingto have that, right.

(01:07:42):
Like, X-bar I'm I'm I used to belike a huge gamer when I was a
kid, you know, and who doesn'tremember the Sony, Nintendo,
Microsoft Sega Wars, you know,like that will always exist.
Right?
When you put two people, um,that are making things that are
similar, that have two groupsthat are, you know, caring about
things that are similar, thosegroups will always fight and

(01:08:04):
skirmish it's just is like, whatwill happen, you know, as human
nature.
So, um, but I I'm very happythat, you know, The defining
characteristic of the people whoare caring about Rome research
and talking about it in publicis the friendliness, you know,
like there is this, thisconsistent like friendliness,
um, you know, people.
I always see people saying, youknow, sharing my videos, sharing

(01:08:26):
different things that I'mmaking, because people said, I
don't get this.
What should I do?
You know?
And like, there's always peoplethat are willing to say, you
should try this, you should dothis.
You should do this.
Have you considered this?
And not in like a pushyaggressive way, but just in like
this helped me.
Maybe it'll help you.
Or, you know, I understand thevalue of this.
Maybe if you understand thevalue of this too, that'll be
beneficial.
And that feels really specialbecause it doesn't feel it's the

(01:08:49):
right balance between helpful.
Um, and gracious that a lot ofother communities aren't able to
like tackle.

Yeah.
Th those are some of the veryinteresting aspects of a
community centered around atool.
And the closest to that I'veseen as notion.
So notion would be more of acouple of thought leaders or a
couple of notion experts whowould be really, really willing
to share their workflows, theirtemplates, et cetera.

(01:09:20):
And.
With that they, they growfollowing.
And from there to have, youknow, a certain set of users
that follow their YouTubechannel or, um, their posts all
the time and, and these experts,they know each other by proxy
because state date, all of themuse notions.
So it's like, there's thisinteresting exclusive circle of
notion experts.
And it's really interesting tohave these chapters that people
who use notion for all kinds ofuse cases.

(01:09:42):
And I remember being relativelyinvolved in that because I was
using notion for quite a while,uh, last year.
And just following the threadsof all these experts and seeing
how they gather and seeing howthey exude their personality
through how they teach a notionis a very slow paced.
You can build things just likehow you would want to see it.

(01:10:04):
It's very pretty, it's a verypretty app.
So, you know, aesthetically,like from an aesthetic point of
view, if you like notion youprobably have similar tastes in
aesthetics, like maybe that's apossibility right there and on
Rome, We have to, you have tohave had tackled the, not to
make a pun out of it.
The notion of chaotic writing,or at least what I call it in my

(01:10:28):
head writing in madness.
So.
When you ride a madness, itdoesn't matter.
What's written down as long asit is written down, but maybe
you can use it sometime in thefuture and Rome being like the
only tool that has accepted thatso far has given birth to a
space or a corner of the worldwhere anyone who looks in that
corner or in that direction, whois currently finding a way to

(01:10:50):
house.
All of that mad writing thatthey've been doing is looking at
that engaging whether or not dothey fit.
Because it's such a weird andstrangely intimate part of our,
why?
I mean, I call it writing lifebecause you don't always want to

(01:11:12):
show your messy, chaotic,whatever notes to people.
Most of the time we have thisvery interesting first
impression where what you postonline must be refined.
Must have proper grammar, maybeeaters, SEO, maybe there's some
kind of like amazing blog postand meta categories, et cetera.
Um, th the conventional criteriathat a blog would have, but when

(01:11:37):
we get to here, the community isjust amazing.
Yeah, sure.
We can get very cultish, but Ithink that's part of the banter.
And I have a strange feelingthat I am quite a big factor to
that, uh, that I'm willing toadd in like random Latin phrases
to welcome new users, uh, orwhenever someone's on the
believer plan that I'm like, Oh,credo.

(01:11:58):
Right.
And, um, by directional linkingeverything that's on Twitter,
even though that doesn't haveany, that doesn't serve any
purpose, but I've realized thatthat's some sort of guerrilla
marketing, because the more thatwe fake.
Link words on our tweets don'twant that people would ask,
like, why are you guys doingthat?
And then that's enough, excuseto be like, Hey, you should

(01:12:20):
check out this tool.
And I'm in pure pitch mode.
Uh, and that's when it getspretty, uh, interesting way
before, before we move on fromthat bit.
I actually, and not as youbrought up the, uh, Uh, the
console Wars from ages ago, Iknow that you do a lot of, uh,
tweet threads on various thingsthat bring up quite a number of

(01:12:40):
Nick nostalgic feelings.
Cause I realized that a lot ofthings that you post about it,
I'm like, Oh wow.
I haven't seen that like 20, 30years.
So it's really interesting thatthat it's either that we've,
we've watched similar things.
Um, and, uh, yeah, I was goingto ask what was the most

(01:13:01):
nostalgic.
Video games, sound of yourchildhood.

Mm.
Yeah, I, I included it in theTwitter thread.
Actually.
It was definitely the sound of aPS two starting up.
And it's, it's one of thosethings.
Yeah.
I always post these randomnostalgic videos.
Um, I like, I sort of think invideo, um, It's it's one of the
formats that like makes them ofsense to me.

(01:13:26):
Um, and so I try to include alot of like video clips and
different things on Twitter,because it feels like something
that I'm set up to do.
And it it's like, uh, a helpfulway of, of talking.
You know, like if I tweet, doesanyone remember the PS two intro
sound, or I say, who remembersthis?
And I, you know, play the soundlike the second thing is much
more powerful and evocative,especially when I'm trying to

(01:13:49):
make people like, remembersomething, you know, um, But
yeah, like, uh, I like whenever,whenever I, I have those
nostalgic moments, which I thinkI actually have more often
because of Rome, because I'mdoing these daily note taking
experiences where I'm processingand thinking and externalizing
the things that would usually befleeting thoughts.

(01:14:09):
Um, but yeah, I, uh, I typicallytry to post those to Twitter to
see who else those thingsresonate with.
But yeah, I.
There's a, there's a good likeYouTube video.
I found about the subjectrecently, um, where it was sort
of talking about like each ofthe PlayStation sounds over time
has its own vibe.
Um, and the PS one specificallyit's sorta like weirdly like

(01:14:31):
dark and not creepy, but likethe, the PlayStation one sound
is very like happy and kind ofpositive.
And the PS two has this weird,like a femural thing.
And you're like descending inthis city of darkness.
And like, it's very strange whenyou like, kind of.
Think about it outside of thecontext of just like, yeah.
That's what the PS two soundslike.
Um, but yeah, I mean, man here,I can hear it playing in my head

(01:14:53):
right now and who knows how manytimes I heard in my childhood.
Right.
Every single time that I turnedit on to play a game, um, you
know, many, many times a day.
So yeah, if you.
I don't have a, my, my Twitteris not necessarily a Twitter of
strategy.
You know, I'm not trying to belike the blanket guy.
Um, it's sort of like, these arethings that popped into my head

(01:15:15):
and I liked hope, hope youenjoy.
Um, so if you want a random doseof nostalgia, uh, you know,
that's, that's what I try toprovide every once in a while on
Twitter.

yeah.
Going the visa route basicallylike if you're thinking out loud
and your, your threads are ofany topic, as long as it
captures your attention, that isthe only criteria.
And that is the best criteria.
And I fully agree with that.
Um, I think it's, I think it'skind of, there's a certain
pressure behind trying to growonce followers on Twitter, if he

(01:15:50):
had the intention.
Like if you, if you get onTwitter and he had the
intention, uh, trying to growonce followers by niching
ourselves into a, like you said,the blank guy.
And I feel like that's, that'shonestly very disadvantages, uh,
to someone because.
It sort of, in my opinion, maybeit's a very strong one.

(01:16:12):
Someone else can completelydisagree me, but it really
dehumanizes the person becauseyou're not always thinking about
this one topic 24 seven, no way.
Right.
Like if it's like, if it's, ifyou're in here and you're your
niches like writing, forexample, you're not always
thinking about writing all thetime.
Like there are times where he'dbe thinking about food or like,

(01:16:33):
you know, you run out of toiletpaper or you're in a bathroom
unit emergency, or you'rethinking about the love of your
life or your family or somethingnostalgic from ages ago or
inspirations that have nothingto do with writing.
Maybe they play a part.
But the thing is in the pursuitof trying to showcase to the
world, just how human we arebalancing that with trying to

(01:16:57):
showcase to the world how usefulwe are.
Becomes a very difficult thingto try to, I mean, can I use
balance again, but to try tobalance and juggle between the
both of them, just becausethere's only so much we can talk
about on the same thing.
So I really do appreciate thatyou can go full on with like any
topic, no matter if it'snostalgia or on something that

(01:17:19):
you've been interested in,interested in, because like, If
it's not resonating with me, Icould just scroll down.
I mean, just like anyone elsewould just scroll down with
anything on their feed, but ifit's something that brings up
memories from like 15 years agoor something, I would totally
vibe with that.
Like, it's just hilarious to me.

Yeah, I've always, you know, again, like this is
one of the things where, youknow, you'll hear me use the
word community one way too manytimes in this conversation, but
it's because it's so valuable tome, but it's something that I've
really appreciated about the newsort of bubble.
I found myself in as I've beenexploring, um, using rum
research because I've probably.

(01:17:59):
Doubled the amount of peoplethat I'm following on Twitter
over the last few months,because I found so many new
interesting people, but, youknow, following along in tech
Twitter, it felt very, verylike, Ooh, is this like, can I,
can I post this right now?
Like everyone's talking abouttechnology all the time.

(01:18:20):
Is it okay for me to post thisand, you know, I feel the same
way.
People like tweet about sports.
I'm not a sports guy.
I'll be like, man, I do not knowwhat this person is talking
about.
And now I know like biweekly, Ihave to deal with them, you
know, live, tweeting some gamethat I'm not following in the
slightest.
And, you know, I wish that therewas a better way for Twitter to
kind of.
No, push those tweets to theside, um, without like fully

(01:18:43):
buying into the algorithm andthe timeline.
But, um, I don't really feel theway that I used to feel about
like, is this okay to.
Twitter not because, you know,I've, I've grown my bubble to be
as such that people areconstantly talking about a
variety of things all the time.
So, you know, again, it's notnecessarily like a strategic
thing.

(01:19:03):
Um, but it's something that Ithink is good.
And, you know, at the beginningof this year, I read, uh, Walter
Isaacson's biography of Leonardoda Vinci.
And, you know, ultimateRenaissance man definition of a
Renaissance man, um, that guycould not follow a single thread
to save his life.
Like he was constantly lookingat new things, constantly

(01:19:23):
obsessed with somethingdifferent, you know, you know,
like half of, you know, a goodquarter of the book is spent
with, um, It is spentdocumenting him writing about
birds.
I would imagine that if you wentand talked to those people, they
would have no idea that Leonardoda Vinci spent any time writing
about birds.
You know, that is not a thingthat has hit popular culture.

(01:19:43):
They're like, didn't he justpaint?
No, he did not just paint.
He did quite a few things andwent on quite a few rabbit
trails.
Um, and you know, it just hasit, you, you say it's like
disadvantage disadvantageous tolike.
Kind of shoehorn yourself in toa certain like thing.
I would argue that through,throughout a lot of social
media, it has actually beenextremely advantageous to do

(01:20:06):
that because it's the only wayto really like gain a foothold.
And it's only now becoming a badidea because we are only now
allowing ourselves to reallylike be full people.
But you know, if you go on TikTOK, Look at the people that are
crushing it on Tik TOK, you'regoing to see the same tick-tock
on their grid a hundred times,you know, like that it has been

(01:20:27):
the growth hack for so long thatI have never liked, you know, I
want to reject it.
I don't want to be a part of it.
And it feels like tools likeRome are the, are the tools
being built by the people andfor the people that aren't
interested in, that kind ofstuff, you know, like, um, the,
the YouTube videos that I'vebeen making it's.
Very much like a quarantine timeproject where it's like, you

(01:20:48):
know what?
This feels like a great thing tospend my time doing right now.
The next video that I do isprobably going to be on like a
movie that I watched and want tolike add a criticism to, is that
what people are necessarilyexpecting after I've made a few
like Rome research, videos andstuff.
Maybe not, but like, I don'tcare.
I'm not interested in likeboxing myself in that far in, in

(01:21:08):
interspersed between, um, myvideos about Rome or videos
about, uh, you know, the firethat I experienced or videos
about this or videos about that.
Um, and I'm finding people likevisa and Michael Ashcroft and
different, you know, differentfolks who are doing similar
things where, you know, they'retalking about what inspires
them, talking about what impactsthem.

(01:21:29):
And that's what I care about.
Well, I don't care about goingto the guy that says the same
thing, 20 different ways, 20different days in a row.
I want to follow the people whoI have a connection with that
are constantly surfacing thethings that inspire them that
might inspire me.
And the fact that we have a toolthat can do that, the fact that

(01:21:51):
we've built a community that cando that feels so good to me in a
way that I haven't really foundonline for a long time.
It almost feels nineties.
You know, like it sort of feelslike a throwback, which is very
much in line with the likehypertext hyperlink HyperCard
vibes that Rome research oftenhas, you know, it's like, For
the people that are nostalgicfor when it felt a little less

(01:22:12):
corporate, when it felt a littleless like growth, hacky,
marketing centric, all thisstuff, you know, like this is a
community that's building forthat, for the future that was
coming that got sidelined by thepresent that we have.
It's like a, it's a complexsentence, but you understand
that, you know, like what I meanby that?
Uh, so yeah, it just.

(01:22:32):
I love it so much.
And I'm so glad to feelcomfortable and confident, just
doing whatever I want andknowing that other people are
doing the exact same thing.

yeah, like a modern Renaissance, especially
when you see other names likevisa and Michael, uh, you know,
pumping up these YouTube videoswhere, you know, they're not
trying to, they're not trying tohack the YouTube system or
anything.
It's more like they, they arewillingly building.
A circle of people that they'rewilling to connect with either
through their own interests orjust the prolific publishing of

(01:23:05):
videos and thoughts andattracting people through that
instead of like, you know, goingthrough an ultimate guide of
content, marketing and SEO, andthen trying to perfect, uh,
their image online, it's ratherthe flaws and the awkwardness.
And the pauses and a lack ofediting on their videos, maybe,

(01:23:26):
um, that may attract themremain, make them more relatable
or, uh, may humanize thembetter.
It's just that they're exploringalternative mediums, which makes
it much more, uh, interesting.
You did bring up Leonardo daVinci though.
And I was going to ask yousomething about that since, uh,
uh, Isaacson's book is likeprobably one of my favorite
books of all time, becauseDaVinci has always been such a

(01:23:47):
huge figure of inspiration, uh,for mine, uh, of, for me.
Because of the way that henavigates his attention towards
things like his notebooks canrange from whatever topic it may
be in any medium whatsoever,whether it would be art and
illustration, a cross section ofa bird, or like war machines

(01:24:09):
that may or may not fly or mayor may not kill may not even
work.
Um, but in a, but in anenvironment where this was
supported, It felt reallyencouraging to see that his
scattered or the way that hewould shall we say point his as

(01:24:30):
his attention towards things isaccepted.
So seeing that come back now.
But on a smaller scale betweenthese people that we recognize
is a brilliant, but, uh, thereis something that, uh, in your
video that you brought up, uh,when you were talking about this
book where you mentioned theMona Lisa, and there was a bit
at the end where the Mona Lisais the combination of all the,

(01:24:52):
all the things, the experiencesD observations that you're not
at, the Vinci has made.
So let me ask you something thatmay be a little bit difficult to
ask.
Uh, what would your Mona Lisaconsist of?

Hmm.
No, that's a great question.
Um, I, I think that becausewe're in such a nascent stage of
Rome, there still feels likewe're in this like very early,
just like compiling mode andlike getting to know the tool
and learn it.
But I, I definitely think thatwe're going to see a lot of
people who.

(01:25:26):
Have finished works in some wayor another that STEM from Rome
and maybe live in Rome.
You know, I don't necessarilythink that it just means like I
made a book because of all thesethings that I was able to
connect in Rome.
Like I think that's the, thevery beginning, the most
rudimentary form.
I think that there's somethingbigger and I've always had this,
um, I actually have like a firstdraft of a book, um, written

(01:25:51):
living in a hierarchy of filesand folders, which is why I've
not turned it into anythingmore.
Cause that like bores me somuch.
Um, but I've always had this,this like desire to create, um,
sort of like a choose your ownadventure book of creativity,
um, sort of like.
There's no right.
There's no wrong way to create.

(01:26:13):
There's no right way to create.
One of the first things that Idid as a creative person was
learned to be a photographer.
I just did it.
I just bought a camera and tooka trip to Guatemala where a
friend of mine lived and learnedhow to take it photos.
Like, what is this style do?
Oh, what's aperture.
Like I had to learn it that way.
And that was a perfectly normaland legitimate way to learn a
creative craft.

(01:26:34):
Uh, and you know, now I have,uh, you know, uh, like a camera
that's much better at takingphotos than the weird crappy,
um, Cannon with the kit lensthat I had 10 years or 15 years
ago.
Um, but, um, I'm still on thejourney of learning and there
are people that have, havelearned and gone on a
photographic journey in a waythat's totally different than
me.

(01:26:54):
So I had this idea of creatingthis sort of like choose your
own adventure of creative tasksand creative activity and
creative action, um, that youkind of clicked through as you
figured out your own vibe.
And I've really been wanting to.
Put that in Rome, uh, in someway, but is that my Mona Lisa?
No, I think that's my firstweird, I think that's my, um,

(01:27:18):
uh, index of birds or whateverLeonardo da Vinci, you know, was
working.
You know, I think it's somethingthat I want to fiddle with and
mess with and care about and,you know, work on the details
for a long time.
Um, you know, the, the quotethat I think is so powerful,
About that, that ending kind ofconclusion about the Mona Lisa
in Isaacson's book is himsaying.

(01:27:40):
Everything that Leonardo did,everything that he cared about
is represented in the Mona Lisaand the Mona Lisa would not be
as beautiful or as perfect, oras interesting if he hadn't
studied anatomy, if he hadn'tstudied nature, if he hadn't
studied landscapes, if he hadn'ttried to get bird bird's-eye
views, like all of these thingscome together in this painting.

(01:28:01):
And I think that.
In a weird way.
The Rome graph is the Mona Lisain a way that, um, in, in a way
that we could never viewLeonardo da Vinci's notebooks.
Like I think that his notebooksare just as valuable, if not
more valuable than any paintingthat he's left behind.

(01:28:24):
But because we as humans, can'tleaf through the notebooks and
see his thoughts, it doesn'tfeel as immediately interesting
or.
Masterful as the painting thatwe can view or like go to a
museum to see, you know, youcan't hang is every page of his
notebooks in a gallery.
Like you could, but like no onewill in the same way that they

(01:28:46):
hang his paintings.
Um, and in my hope is that, youknow, because of the way that
we're actually able to likeinterconnect text that the text
itself can be viewed as a masterwork and a work of.
Of history, you know, of, ofinterest of intrigue in the same
way that like a typical artpiece has been throughout time.

(01:29:10):
But I also, I don't know, man,like, you know, I think that's
the power of Rome, right.
Is I have already realized.
Oh, I should really write aboutthis.
Oh, I should really do this.
Oh, wow.
Like I've thought about this 10times.
Oh, I, I found that off therealready, like way long ago in
this quote, from this otherbook, I didn't realize it was
the same guy.
Like I do that all of the time.
So, you know, even though Isaid, like, I'm not the blank

(01:29:34):
guy, I wonder if I willrecognize that the trends and
the topics and the things thatmatter to me, um, In a way that
I wouldn't, if I was just livinglife every day, because I'm
seeing the things that trulymatter to me that truly get me
energized coming up to thesurface again and again.
So, you know, I think, I thinktime will tell.

Time will tell of course.
And as the graph grows, I likethat actually.
Um, Your graph as a masterworkor your graph as the Mona Lisa,
if we could get a graph overviewthat actually creates a piece of
art, like it looks really,really pretty.
That would be amazing.
Uh, that, that also justreminded me, I think, in

(01:30:17):
Malaysia last year.
Yeah.
Last year there was a Leonardoda Vinci exhibition, and people
had like, they had likenotebooks pages.
Uh, printed, uh, on the wall.
So you can actually see or tryto figure out what, uh, he was
trying to draw, trying to say,and it had digital screens
showcasing the art becausethey're not going to bring the

(01:30:38):
art all the way to it and that acountry, but they could at least
scan it and you could see thedetails.
So you can see the imperfectionsin each of his art pieces.
So the fact that we can get anexhibition of a person who.
Has done 50 different things hasincomplete pieces of art.
And some parts of the art areflawed.

(01:30:59):
Like, I mean, it's reallymasterful work, but there are
some parts where maybe theproportions are a little bit off
or it there's a gradual progressin his skill.
Um, people will still accept itand people will still visit it
and people will still come to itand people will still.
Want to see it and want to seemore of it because they are

(01:31:22):
enamored of the name, Leonardoda Vinci.
So if we tried to transpose thatfeeling into us, our Mona Lisa
is probably the experience thatyou can provide to someone.
If you give them the key to yourgraph and let them explore,
like, if, if your graph becomesa museum, then that will

(01:31:46):
probably be.
You're a Mona Lisa.
I, that would be great too, tohave that, like, to be able to
translate that into anexperience or even a narrative,
uh, was I was trying to explorethis idea of, of a, a premium
graph where instead of having,like, if you want to be like a
self-publishing author, you, youknow, you, you write a book and

(01:32:09):
you publish the book on Amazonor something like that.
And I was trying to entertainthis idea of an unlinked book.
Which will be just a normal bookon Amazon, but a linked version
where you have to pay to accessa graph of the same book, but
with extra notes and access tothe next book or a trilogy or

(01:32:30):
whatever.
But it's basically all of thisauthor's works in one premium
graph and then you just pay toget access to it.
So it's like building a themepark of your writing.
Oh, that's amazing.

In a, in a way that I have no interest in
paying for newsletters that showup as emails that I don't want
to get.
I'm very interested in payingfor, you know, we're on research
graphs that actually let meexplore it in a way like that,
you know?
Um, and I, I definitely thinkthat we are still stuck in the
con in the, in the constraintsof the mediums that we have
today, like email, uh, and, youknow, I am currently just

(01:33:05):
anytime that I come across anewsletter, I like anytime I
come across an article that Ilike I'm importing it into my
room, but, you know, imagine theworld where it is already in its
own room and you can choose toimport it or work with it,
however you want.
And like, yeah, that sounds likethe future that I want to be a
part of.
And it seems like it's the onethat's coming, so, you know
yeah.
Has anybody done like anewsletter on Rome yet?

(01:33:27):
I don't.

no, no,

a, that's a good idea.
If any listener wants to, youknow, I will tweet at me if you
create your Rome newsletter andI will be your first quote,
unquote subscriber.
So please save me from nothaving to read your thoughts via
email.
I would much rather read them ina, in a public room.

you've triggered a memory in me months ago.
If you know the designer, uh, asElza, the one that was hired
onto the team, he had this ideawhere he wanted to code and auto
newsletter.
For updates on his digitalgarden.
So it was the prototype for theidea that you're talking about,

(01:34:06):
where he had a digital gardenand each note under each
evergreen note or whatever itwas, uh, You can update it with
like notes over time and therewill be a newsletter that will
come out that will go into youremail.
And it'll say like, Hey, as Lynnhas updated the following notes,
this note, this note, this note,click here to view.
So that's like the prototype forit, but I'm really curious about

(01:34:29):
a newsletter graph.
That will be really interesting.
I, I really want to see thathappen.
Like we've seen people.
Building their newsletters onRome and then publishing it
through the normal newsletterformat, like writing the
newsletter is in Rome, butpublishing it is still the usual
newsletter stuff.
And I'm getting newsletterfatigue a lot.

(01:34:50):
Like my I'm getting headachesjust from looking at the updates
tab on my Gmail.
And

no, it's no good.

yeah, I, I really want to read all of the amazing
work that people are, arereading, like are creating, but.
I don't know, like I wish therewas a better way to, to consume
it.
Um, but yeah, if we, if Rome canfix that, that'd be great.
But basically if Rome can fixeverything, that'd be great.
Like, not that I'm being very,very biased about it, but email

(01:35:18):
newsletters, um, audio even,yeah.
Collaboration is the big one.
Like collaborations probablywhen VI V2 of Rome will be out
and V3 is like the API or APIwill be like V 1.5 or something
like that.
But we'll see.
And, uh, I hope that this is nottoo bad for timing coming up on

(01:35:39):
time.
Might as well, uh, close it offof a couple of segments or
segments rather that I wouldlove to hear, uh, your answers
to this.
Although I think you've alreadyanswered it already.
Like halfway through theconversation.
The first one is how would youdescribe roam to someone who
hasn't started using it yet?

No, actually, I haven't said that necessarily
the way that I constantly referto around, just because I think
that it's helpful to have likesomething that people can
imprint onto immediately is Isay it's sort of like Wikipedia
for note taking like, just likewhen you go on Wikipedia and
there's all those blue links andyou can explore through it,
imagine that, but for your notesand you know, is it a perfect

(01:36:21):
one-to-one like example of whatRome is?
No, definitely not.
But I think that because we've.
All used Wikipedia.
And we all know that Wikipediahas all those wonderful blue
links that go back and forthdifferent pages.
And you can explore all day.
That is a healthy way to getpeople into the understanding of
bi-directional links, which Ithink is the first thing that

(01:36:43):
people should.
Learn about because it's thereal differentiator, you know,
if I say, Oh, it has this graph,you know, and it's like a, you
know, like that's all tooconceptual and weird, so
Wikipedia, but for your notes isalways the way that I pitch it.
And that that's, that'sdefinitely my elevator pitch.

okay.
Yeah, definitely a really goodreference since everybody knows
how Wikipedia works.
Like.
Maybe not even like the finetunings of it, but at least
navigating through it, they'llbe like, Oh yeah, it goes here.
It can go here.
It can go here.
Okay.
Yeah.
That's a good way to put it.
And the final question is whatdoes Rome mean to you?

Well, you may.
Uh, not be surprised to hearthat I'll throw around the word
community again.
Um, but you know, for me, roamgoes way beyond just like a
collection of notes that I'mputting in a silo.
Um, it goes even beyond thatconcept that I was saying of
like the sourdough starter ofthe mind, you know, that is, is

(01:37:41):
growing and is making me happyto see grow.
Like if it was just for me, Ifit was just me watching it grow,
I know that I would kill itmuch.
Like my sourdough starter is infreezer, deep storage right now.
You know, I am not growing itevery day because I don't want a
loaf of bread every day.
And I don't necessarily want towrite all my thoughts every day.
Like it's, it's my, my use ofRoman scattershot.

(01:38:03):
Some days my daily notes.
Is massive.
Some days it's two lines.
Some days I'm writing thousandsof words in Rome and taking
notes and doing highlights somedays, it's nothing, some days
it's, it's totally blank.
And I go back the next day andtry to remember what I was
doing.
Like, you know, I'm, I'm thatkind of person that.
If I'm just doing it for me.

(01:38:23):
Um, some days I'll have really,really productive, um, periods
and some days I'll, I'll havenothing to say.
The reason that I'm excitedabout Rome and the reason that
I'm gonna stick with it for thelongterm, and the reason that
I'm talking about it right nowon this show and, you know,
talking about it on Twitter andmaking videos and this and that
is because.
Of the community aspect of it isbecause of the promise of

(01:38:47):
multiplayer in the future isbecause of the concept of
talking to people beyond me.
So, you know, to me roam, isn'ta note-taking tool.
It's not a productivity tool,it's a communication tool.
It's a social network in a waythat no social network is able
to be, um, because it's allowingme to put.

(01:39:11):
The fullness of myself on twopages that can be picked up as
you wish at any time.
You know, when I, when I tweetsomething.
I know I'm about to like, sendthis out to the world and
everyone's going to see it rightnow when you do a blog or a
YouTube video or whatever,that's how it feels when I'm
writing in Rome.

(01:39:32):
I am both writing for myself inthe present and others in the
future.
And that's.
Totally different in a way thatfeels really profound.
So, you know, it's it'scommunity, to me, it's, it's the
promise of community.
It's, it's a space for sociallynetworked thought, not just
networked thought and a silo.
Um, and that's why, that's whyI'm going to keep using it for

(01:39:55):
years to come.

Fantastic.
A place for socially networkedthought is.
Going to be the biggestdifferentiator once multiplayer
room comes out, it'll be a loteasier for people to understand
that actually not that cause,cause then you can easily assign
it to social networks and allthat.
So, yes, I love this.

(01:40:18):
I love this.
Like you're getting more andmore ways to articulate just how
great the impact of Rome can be,you know, for.
What you're trying to do, orwhat you are prioritizing, which
is community and communityseriously is one of the biggest
factors behind, uh, rum researchbeing so grand as it is right

(01:40:39):
now.
Because if Rome research wasn'treally known that, well, then
maybe may not have a Montadisease to this amount of
success, but it's fantastic tosee that.
Rome cult, uh, roam culture andwhat you're doing now with your
videos and your tweet threads oneverything from to games sounds
to Rome.
Research is out there foreveryone to see.

(01:41:01):
So drew, thank you so much.
If we want to contact you orreach out to you for anything
that we talked about is in thisconversation, what is the best
way to do that?

Hit me up on Twitter.
My DMS are always open.
I love talking to people.
Um, somebody on the roam FMthread notice that I have a, a
status message in my name.
So if I'm, if it says drewcoffin is online, drew Kaufman
is online and he will be happyto talk and chat.
Uh, so yeah, find me there.

Fantastic.
And of course, uh, Drew'sTwitter will be in the public
aroma fem graph right below aswell as they show notes.
If you want to look at otherthings like transcripts, et
cetera.
So, um, I mean, if I had astream deck, I would totally
play the PSU game zone right nowfor you.
But drew, thank you so much.
And I will see you on Twitter.

All right.

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