February 28, 2025 • 53 mins
This episode focuses on the importance of raising anti-fragile children who thrive on challenges and adversity. We discuss the dangers of overprotecting kids and share practical strategies to foster resilience, including allowing rough play and encouraging emotional growth through difficult experiences.
• Discussing the concept of anti-fragility
• Sharing personal parenting stories and challenges
• Highlighting the importance of exposure to hardships
• Practical tips for fostering resilience in children
• Emphasizing emotional and spiritual growth through adversity
• Encouraging parents to embrace life's messiness
• Understanding the balance between protection and independence
• The role of discomfort in developing grit and strength
We wrap up by spotlighting how embracing challenges as growth opportunities not only strengthens our kids but also builds a community of support and authenticity. From stories of tree climbing and sibling wrestling to navigating friendships, we highlight the importance of transparency and empathy. Through playful activities that mimic life’s unpredictability, we champion the essence of anti-fragility. Join us in our online spaces, where we celebrate the beautiful messiness of life, and remember, if our chaos is blessed, yours can be too.
Mentioned in this episode:
- Antifragile: Things That Gain from Disorder (affiliate link)
- Grit: The Power of Passion and Perseverance (affiliate link)
- Raising Passionate Jesus Followers (affiliate link)
Your Listening to our 1 blessed mess, with ben and liz
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Liz (00:07):
Welcome to our One Blessed Mess.
This is Ben and Liz, and we'rehere telling our story of
raising six kids in eight years,managing our entrepreneurial
home with two businesses,homeschooling, and currently
raising and navigating life withfour teenagers.
Plus, we have seven chickens,two dogs, and that's just to
keep life interesting, and,trust me, it's interesting.
(00:29):
Today's conversation topic isabout what, ben?
What are we talking about?
Ben (00:33):
today.
Well, before we get to thetopic, I just want to say how
nice your hair looks.
Liz (00:38):
Aw, thank you.
Ben (00:39):
You're so kind, I've been trying to go to compliment
school.
Liz (00:42):
Yes, we need to do an episode on compliment school.
It's taken 20 years.
Ben (00:46):
Yeah, I'm a slow learner, you're graduating.
I'm a slow learner, you'regraduating.
Yeah, 20 years to graduate fromcompliment school.
Liz (00:51):
I love it.
You're getting an A plus, plus,plus plus.
Ben (00:55):
Well, I didn't start off with that.
No, no, no, it's okay, but it'sall right.
Yeah, another topic for anotherday.
Liz (01:00):
It's okay, you think it.
It doesn't come out of here tohere.
Yeah, yeah, that's the problem.
Ben (01:05):
There's a disconnect between here and here.
Liz (01:09):
Yeah, so anyways, we're working on it.
We're working on it, but thankyou, thank you for saying that.
I appreciate it.
Ben (01:14):
You're welcome.
So today's topic is raisinganti-fragile kids Yep.
Liz (01:25):
What in the world does that even mean?
That is quite the mouthful.
What does that even mean?
Ben (01:30):
I'm glad you asked, so you might have noticed that our
society loves to protect somewould even say coddle children.
That's true, Right.
Some would even say coddlechildren.
Liz (01:42):
That's true.
Ben (01:43):
Right.
So we're all about trying toremove harm, discomfort, even
fatigue, from our kids, becausewe take on that protector role
as parents.
Liz (01:56):
Yes, we do.
Ben (01:57):
And we want to keep our kids from being upset.
But there's kind of a negativeattached to an extreme form of
that protection.
And so we're going to talkabout what that negative is.
I'm not smart enough to come upwith that word, Someone else
did but the whole concept isthat when you're being too
(02:20):
protective, you're not lettingthe natural anti-fragile part in
your children to develop.
Liz (02:29):
So basically you're putting your kids in bubble wrap.
Is that what you're saying?
Pretty much Okay.
Ben (02:33):
I understand Pretty much.
Liz (02:34):
But you know what?
I can kind of relate to thatdiscomfort and fatigue.
I mean I feel like-.
Ben (02:40):
You personally?
Huh, yeah, me personally.
Oh, tell us about this relating.
Liz (02:44):
Maybe six times in my life.
Ben (02:47):
Well, yeah, six times that I didn't experience that.
Liz (02:50):
No, you certainly didn't.
Ben (02:51):
I mean, I had some sympathy cravings and let me tell you I
got really tired watching yougive birth.
Liz (02:57):
This is actually true.
Ben (02:58):
I had to take a nap once or twice.
Liz (03:06):
Oh my gosh, I don't even want to get into the nap
schedule.
I really don't Okay.
Yeah, this is true, but I wasjust thinking of a moment when I
was pregnant with number fourand I was like very fatigued,
very discomforted.
Ben (03:15):
Is it bad that I had to go through the names of which one
number four was Like when yousaid number four.
I was like oh shoot, which oneis that?
Liz (03:23):
That is bad.
No, our kids are going to watchthis.
That's terrible.
And our family's going to watchit.
Okay, but no, I I remember yourdad was visiting us.
We lived far, far away from ourfamily, our parents.
And I was pregnant with numberfour.
You were at work, your dad wasvisiting, he was downstairs
taking a nap and I want it was aFriday night and I wanted to
have this really wonderful mealwith you and your dad and the
(03:46):
kids, and so I was, of course,pregnant, because all of our
stories are around beingpregnant.
Ben (03:52):
Were you barefoot though.
Liz (03:53):
Absolutely yes.
Actually, this time I reallywas barefoot.
Ben (03:56):
Just wanted to set the stage.
That's hilarious.
Glad we got that.
Liz (03:59):
And I had an apron on.
Ben (04:00):
Okay, wow, chickens in the yard.
Well, no, we didn't.
Was chickens in the yard.
Liz (04:02):
Well, we didn't have chickens but I was very hot
because it was like the end ofthe pregnancy, it was like the
end of summer.
Ben (04:09):
Yep, yep, okay, okay.
Liz (04:11):
And so I was making this meal and every burner was going,
the oven was going, everythingwas going, and, lo and behold, I
look over and our cute littledog that we had, which was a
Yorkie poo named Deo.
I look over and Deo, forwhatever reason, he decided to
lift his leg on our trash canand use the restroom.
And I was like, are you kiddingme?
(04:33):
I'm so tired of bending overAny moms out there ever been at
the end of your pregnancy.
You're like I just I cannotpick up another toy.
I'm not picking up any morelaundry, Like you, just like it.
Just it hurts right, Especiallyat the end of the day.
So, anyway, this dog does thiscourse.
I put the dog outside and and Idon't know why he even did that
he's never done that before, butanyway he did it.
(04:54):
So I had to clean it up.
You know, get down there, cleanit all up.
Then we were potty training oursecond born and he had to go to
the bathroom.
He went running down the hall,didn't make it, went to the
bathroom in the hallway and Iremember coming to the hallway
and I was so big and pregnant Iwas like there's no way I can
(05:14):
leap over all of this, Like I'mnot going to leap.
I'm not a gazelle.
Right now I look like one ofthose hippopotamuses from Disney
and Fantasia, Like that's whatI'm thinking.
I'm like there's no way I'mgoing to leap over this.
So, anyway, somehow I clean itup, I get him all cleaned up and
the meanwhile your dad istaking a nap, which is fine.
I you know it was fine.
(05:35):
I didn't need him to comeupstairs, but you call me.
Why did you call me?
Ben (05:38):
Do you remember my car broke down.
Well, I thought it, it wouldn'tstart car broke down.
Liz (05:44):
Well, I thought it, it wouldn't start.
Ben (05:44):
Yeah, Like I think the battery something was going on
with the battery Battery died.
So yeah, I called him and thenI think he was going to come get
me Right.
Liz (05:49):
Yeah, you called me.
You said can you have my dadcome down?
Cause he didn't answer hisphone, cause he was sleeping.
So your dad had to go downtownto go meet you.
And of course your dad wakes up, he gets going, he heads on
(06:11):
down the interstate to meet you.
Then I get a phone call andsomebody in your parking lot, I
guess, jumped you.
Yeah, okay.
So then it was calling your dad, telling him to come back.
And so while all this ishappening, I've got bubbling
pots of food and stuff in theoven.
I'm hot, I'm barefoot,literally barefoot, and pregnant
.
And your dad comes in the doorand he could tell that I was
like a little bit on edge.
Ben (06:23):
Flustered.
Should we say flustered?
Liz (06:25):
Yeah, fatigued and distressed, that's what we're
talking about here.
Ben (06:29):
You might have been a little fragile, is what you're
saying?
Liz (06:30):
I was definitely fragile.
And so I heard our little girlcrying in her crib and he said
what can I do?
And I said you know what, canyou just go check on her, cause
she was waking up from her nap.
And so your dad went in thereand he was in there for a very
long time probably 10 minutesand then you came home and I
said hey, I don't know what'sgoing on, but you need to go
(06:52):
check on your dad.
He's been in there in a while.
And I was like don't even askme, I'm so tired, I just I wish
we had ordered pizza.
So what happened?
Ben (07:07):
So my turn to take over, because this is where it gets
really interesting.
I came home, you weredefinitely flustered and I run
back to find my dad who, lo andbehold, had taken an entire box
of the wet wipes and was wipingdown our daughter, the rails,
the walls, everything.
Liz (07:23):
Because but it wasn't working because it wasn't
working.
Ben (07:27):
It's taken one by one, one by one well, our daughter
decided to paint yes, the railsand the wall yes, yeah, and
herself with her own poop yeah,it was terrible and I know if
you've had kids, you've walkedin on this situation.
Liz (07:40):
well, the two of them are like talking down the hall and
it's kind of like whisperinghush but like intense and I'm
thinking what in the world isgoing on?
Well, I was on this situation.
Well, the two of them are liketalking down the hall and it's
kind of like whispering hush butlike intense and I'm thinking
what in the world is going on?
Ben (07:48):
Well, I was, yeah, I was like hey, this isn't working,
We've got to pull in bigger gunshere.
Liz (07:53):
And so I walk in to two dads, the dad and the grandpa,
with wet wipes, and a daughterstill covered in all kinds of
things.
She had painted herself verywell and you know, this story is
going to show up at her weddingbecause it's going to be
payback.
That's what it's going to be?
Ben (08:09):
No, it's going to be paintback.
That's what it is.
I don't think we would do thattoo.
Liz (08:14):
No, and she's going to hear this.
But but I mean, God bless youguys.
So of course I walk in andyou're like we got it, Don't
worry, Go finish dinner.
And I said, guys, put her inthe bathtub.
That's the first thing you do,so you start the water, you put
her in the bathtub.
And then I was like wet wipesare not going to happen.
Here's the cleaning.
You need paper towels.
Here's a trash can Like this ishow this is going to happen.
(08:37):
And then, and then whathappened?
Ben (08:39):
Well then, she decided to have round number two and she
pooped in the bathtub so god wejust can't get away from potty
humor.
No, we cannot.
That's why it's our one blessedmess, our one bm, our one bm,
but I mean really with theterritory I knew I remember
thinking during all of that andI was physically tired like
tired and I remember thinking inthat one of these days I'm
(09:01):
gonna laugh at the story.
Liz (09:02):
But today I'm telling the story and I'm still not really
laughing at the story.
Ben (09:06):
No, I'm still feeling a little fragile.
I'm laughing yeah.
Liz (09:11):
I love you.
Ben (09:11):
We need to make you a little more anti-fragile?
Liz (09:13):
I think so what are you going to do?
Wrap me in bubble wrap?
What?
Ben (09:15):
are you going to do?
Well, no, that's actuallyworking against the concept of
it.
Okay.
We should go into it.
We should go into the concept.
Yeah, let's talk about it.
This is good, yeah.
Liz (09:24):
And let's talk about how we got into this you and I were
out on a date.
Yeah, so you and I were on adate.
This topic came up.
I don't remember how it came up.
I don't either, and then itbecame this very long discussion
, and that just spurred you onto becoming a Mr Investigator
and you put on your learner hatand went to town.
(09:44):
Not me, Never, never you.
And so then you've come to meand you're like this should
really be an episode.
Ben (09:50):
Yeah.
And got pretty jazzed about it.
Liz (09:52):
Yeah, you've done a lot of research on this.
It's actually prettyfascinating.
Ben (09:55):
It is fascinating and this concept of anti-fragile that
comes from a book and it'swritten by an author, nassim
Tlaib.
And the book is called Anti-Fragile.
Go figure, but the definitionof anti-fragile is pretty
interesting.
So it goes beyond likeresilient or robustness, and
(10:20):
it's more about the actualability to get stronger when
exposed to stressors.
Right, okay, so anti-fragilemeans exactly the opposite of
fragile.
You need some discomfort, youneed some friction in order to
become stronger, and what'scrazy is that none of the
(10:42):
world's major languages have aword for that concept.
Liz (10:47):
Yeah, and that's crazy to me.
When we were talking about this, I said so you're literally
telling me that we do not have aword for what we're talking
about, except for anti-fragile.
Ben (10:56):
Except for the antithesis right.
So it's like we have fragilebut we don't have a word that
means anti-fragile.
We just have to sayanti-fragile.
Liz (11:05):
So interesting, we should make up one like servitarian.
Ben (11:10):
Well man, yeah, good call, I'll let you, I'll let you
noodle on that you can get backto me, oh Lord.
Maybe the listeners, they, theyhave a word they want to put in
the comments.
Liz (11:18):
Oh yeah, put it in the comments, you might come up with
one, that's right.
I, you might come up with one,that's right.
Ben (11:22):
I love that.
So let's go into a few examples, like where we see this concept
of anti-fragile at play Oneyour immune system.
Liz (11:32):
Oh yeah, that's so true.
Ben (11:49):
So if you don't allow your immune system to acquire germs
and then have a responsefeedback to that and get built
up from experiencing germs, youactually will suffer if you have
exposure to germs in the future.
So it's like you need thatability to experience.
It get stronger, get better,and then the next time it
happens, it gets stronger, itgets better.
So there needs to be thatstressor in order for them to
build strength in your immunesystem yeah, and that's why it's
okay for kids to get sick theyget germs, get dirty.
Liz (12:09):
Yeah, get germs and get well, and I'm thinking how many
colds do they say children needbefore they get to kindergarten?
Ben (12:14):
I forget the number but you know, we let our kids run
around outside without shoes onoh yeah, of course, get some
tetanus, get all the stuff.
No, we didn't do that, oh mygosh, I hope so.
Gee A little too fragile there.
So that's one example where yousee that in nature.
And then I really like thesecond one, so this other one.
(12:37):
There was this concept ofbiosphere that was done.
I think it was in the 80s.
It was called Biosphere.
That was done.
I think it was in the 80s.
It was called Biosphere 2.
Liz (12:45):
There apparently was a first one that failed miserably,
which our daughter informed usabout Our 16-year-old daughter.
Ben (12:50):
She knew she was like oh yeah, I know all about this.
Liz (12:52):
And we both looked at her and went what?
This is over dinner the othernight.
We're like you know about this,and and even mushrooms.
Like you need mushrooms becauseof what mushrooms do.
Ben (13:04):
It was very interesting.
So Biosphere 2,.
Liz (13:07):
I believe and hey, you're a fun guy.
Ben (13:09):
Oh my gosh.
Liz (13:11):
Wow, I had to throw that in there.
Well, just well.
Okay, sorry I broke the trainof thought.
Okay, keep going.
Ben (13:18):
So Biosphere 2 was an experiment and what we Basically
?
It was an entire enclosedsystem.
So nothing was going in,nothing was coming out Right,
and so they were trying tofigure out how we could get,
maybe life on another planet.
That was one of the ideas forthis experiment.
Liz (13:31):
Wait time out.
So is it like in a globe?
Ben (13:34):
Yeah, like a big sphere or half sphere.
It's like a dome and they allowsunlight in, but it was
completely controlled um outsideof.
You know the sunlight coming in?
Liz (13:47):
So this is like the Truman show yeah, almost yeah, exactly
Something like that.
Ben (13:51):
I think it was the eighties Wild, but the point of us
saying this is that in thisexperiment they they grew trees
inside the dome right and theytry to introduce animals and
stuff like that, I believe.
But one of the things thathappened that they noticed with
the trees- is since there was nostrong winds, that the root
(14:11):
systems from these trees wereactually shallow and the trees
fell over.
Liz (14:16):
Right.
Ben (14:17):
And collapsed from their own weight.
Because, they didn't have theresistance to grow against
Because there were no stressingfactors on the root system and
the root system didn't growstrong.
Liz (14:29):
Dude, that is so deep, there was no wind.
Ben (14:32):
There was no wind to buffer the tree and make it stress the
roots, where the stressresponse then made the roots go
deeper.
So, because there wasn't that,the tree couldn't support its
own weight.
Liz (14:43):
Makes me think of Psalm 1, one of my favorite Psalms.
Anyway, we're not talking aboutthat, but keep going.
This is good.
Ben (14:50):
So, and then here's another crazy example of something like
that in nature, with this kindof anti-fragile response.
Did you know that buffaloeswhen there's a storm out on the
plains?
Liz (15:02):
they yeah.
They don't run away from thestorm Right right, they turn
into it.
Ben (15:07):
They turn into it.
Liz (15:08):
It's wild.
Ben (15:09):
That is wild.
Liz (15:10):
There was a bunch floating around on social media about
that.
Ben (15:13):
Yeah, and the idea is that you get through the storm
quicker by running into it.
Liz (15:18):
Which makes sense yeah.
Ben (15:20):
But I mean, wow, what a metaphor.
Like, instead of running awayfrom the storms of our life,
like running through them, yeahWell, and turning.
Liz (15:28):
I mean turning and having the wherewithal to go ahead, be
like a buffalo and just headinto the storm and know you're
going to hit it, but know you'regoing to get through it.
Ben (15:39):
Yeah.
Liz (15:39):
I mean, that's another deep thing.
Ben (15:42):
That is very deep.
Yeah, you can unpack that for awhile.
Okay, so one last thing herefor another natural example
muscle growth.
Liz (15:48):
Oh yeah.
Ben (15:49):
Okay.
So if there's no stressors onyour muscles, they actually
won't grow.
So what I mean by that is whenyou use them and you stress them
and they have micro tears, theythey get rebuilt bigger and
better the next time.
So if you don't use yourmuscles to that stressor point,
(16:10):
you actually don't get biggermuscles, They'll become stronger
.
So you need that anti-fragilesystem in your muscles to
actually grow stronger.
Liz (16:15):
And all the women who are going through perimenopause and
menopause say amen, because weall got to be strong.
We don't want osteoporosis.
So what you don't have an amenfor that.
Ben (16:27):
Amen, A woman actually.
Liz (16:30):
Benjamin, sorry.
Ben (16:31):
Okay, speaking of, yes, scriptural references for this
concept, you might be askingyourself is that in the Bible?
We think so.
Yeah, we do.
Liz (16:42):
We do think it's in the Bible.
Ben (16:43):
Do you want to take that first verse?
Liz (16:44):
Sure, I'll take the first one.
This is James 1, 2, 3, 4.
It says consider it pure joy,my brothers and sisters,
whenever you face trials of manykinds, because you know that
the testing of your faithproduces perseverance.
Let perseverance finish itswork so that you may be mature
and complete, not lackinganything.
I do love that verse that youmay be mature and complete, not
(17:05):
lacking anything.
Ben (17:05):
I do love that verse.
Liz (17:06):
That's a hard one.
It is.
I do love it.
Ben (17:07):
It's hard because it's talking about hard things.
Liz (17:10):
It is, and I use that verse a lot with my business, to be
honest.
Ben (17:13):
But in some ways, that's the anti-fragile concept right
there.
Consider it pure joy.
Why would we consider trials ofmany kinds?
Liz (17:22):
pure joy.
Because of what?
Ben (17:23):
you get out of them Right.
Trials of many kinds, pure joybecause of what you get out of
them Right.
So if you never had trials,would you really even test your
faith?
Would it even really proveperseverance in your life?
Liz (17:33):
It's a good question.
Ben (17:34):
I don't know, I don't think it would.
I think we are made to beanti-fragile, even in our
spiritual relationship with theLord, where we need those
stressors in order to buildsomething of character strength.
So it's kind of an intensething.
Liz (17:49):
It is.
It's very intense, but I lovethat too, because in the end
it's going to be mature andcomplete, not lacking anything,
Not like yeah, that's crazy.
Ben (17:59):
So stress as a way to not lack anything.
Liz (18:02):
Yeah.
Ben (18:03):
Yikes, I know, I don't know if that would preach very well,
I mean, I'm having a hard timewith it just now.
So what's the next one here?
So Romans 5, 3 through 5.
Let's just read that.
So not only so, but we alsoglory in our sufferings, because
we know that suffering producesperseverance, perseverance,
(18:25):
character and character, hope.
So again, it's kind ofreinforcing that idea that we
should embrace our sufferingsbecause of what it produces,
right?
So, that anti-fragile system, Ithink is found in the Bible, and
as it relates to our spiritualformation, as it relates to our
(18:48):
spiritual formation, and so Ithink we've got a couple of
stories about this anti-fragile.
Liz (18:50):
You need to tell the one of what you did as a teenager.
Ben (18:54):
That's a hard lesson.
Liz (18:55):
That was a hard lesson Because you just told that one
to some of our kids.
Ben (18:59):
We did yeah Right before this we were talking about.
That Still brings up someinteresting feelings for sure.
So I have a story of when I wasa teen.
I was probably 16, 17, somewherein there, and I drove a Bronco
too.
It was my dad's old car thathe'd given me or let me drive,
(19:24):
and he liked that car.
He loved that car actually, andhe was kind of sad to let me
take it, but he knew I needed acar to drive around.
One thing, though, that he didtell me was that it was old and
it was not a mud bogging vehicle.
It did have four wheel driveand it looked like it could be a
mud bogging vehicle.
It did have four wheel driveand it looked like it could be a
(19:45):
mud bogging vehicle, and thiswas at a time in my life where I
was kind of testing someboundaries.
So, lo and behold, we have alake that every 20 years it just
disappears.
Liz (19:58):
It's wild.
It literally is so wild becauseyou can walk out to the bottom
of the lake there's like asinkhole that opens up, there's
literally like no water left.
Ben (20:05):
Sucks all the water out.
It's wild yeah.
Liz (20:07):
It's a phenomenon.
Ben (20:08):
It's a Florida thing.
We got wild stuff in Florida.
Liz (20:10):
What can we?
Ben (20:11):
say so.
Anyways, me seeing this happen,me having a four-wheel drive
vehicle, but my dad saying hey,don't get any ideas.
Guess what?
I got some ideas.
Liz (20:24):
Yes, you did.
And then what happened?
Ben (20:26):
So I went out to the dry lake bed with a buddy of mine
and we tried to go mud boggingand we got stuck, unfortunately,
all the water wasn't quitedrained out of all the mud yet.
So we found a little mud spotand got stuck and I had to shove
a carpet underneath the tiresto get out.
I mean it was kind of wild.
We were stuck for probably agood hour and eventually got out
(20:50):
.
The problem was, when we gotout the vehicle no longer made
it out of first gear.
So, we were in first gearpermanently.
Liz (20:59):
Yep Ruined your car.
Ben (21:01):
So I drove home very defeated, knowing that I
disobeyed my dad and oh, by theway, I had just won a website
contest.
I thought I was hot stuff.
I won 500 bucks.
It was the city of tallahassee,uh website um competition, and
(21:25):
I entered and I won, and I don'tremember the exact department
or whatever, but it was from thecity.
Yeah, I've got a city and so Igot 500 bucks and I, I mean as a
16 year old 17 year old was 500bucks in my pocket I thought I
mean, you won the lottery prettymuch yes.
Liz (21:42):
And so what happened?
Ben (21:44):
So I came home and told my dad.
Liz (21:46):
Yep.
Ben (21:47):
And obviously he was upset.
Liz (21:48):
Oh yeah, and then what did you have to do?
Ben (21:50):
And he told me well, son, all that money that you got, you
know it's going to go right tofixing the vehicle, Okay, and
that was a hard lesson to learn,very hard lesson to learn.
My dad could have said, hey,I'm sorry that happened, but
maybe we can split it or dosomething, but literally all the
(22:11):
money that I had just won, wentright into it, went right to
the vehicle.
Yeah, and I don't even thinkthat paid for all of it actually
.
Liz (22:16):
Probably not.
Not for what you did, yeah.
Ben (22:18):
It was a hard lesson.
I felt really low, Rachel, butanyways it was a hard lesson I
fell really low, go real highand then go real low.
But I have to say, learningthat lesson taught me so much.
Taught me so much about thevalue of money, number one.
Number two the value ofobedience.
Liz (22:35):
Right.
Ben (22:36):
And also a little bit of peer pressure, because I have a
feeling I was showing off alittle bit with my buddy and.
I probably wouldn't have madesuch a snap decision.
Liz (22:45):
I think I remember the buddy that you were with so, but
you learned a lesson there.
Ben (22:50):
I did I did and that and that.
Liz (22:52):
That gross.
Ben (22:53):
Yes, and I think that's kind of a little bit of the
point we want to make is thatour kids are actually hardwired
to be anti-fragile, where we aremade to rub up against
resistance, figure it out and bebetter for it.
And that was a time in my lifewhere I did that and it shaped
(23:15):
like who I was to become.
Liz (23:16):
Right, you grew up that day .
Ben (23:17):
I did, and a little bit yeah, not a lot, but a little
bit.
I grew up in, you know,different, some different ways.
Liz (23:23):
Well, and also, I'm just thinking that us parenting, you
know, there's a lot of timesthat we are faced with some
decisions on if we're going tolet these kids really feel the
brunt of their decisions or not.
Sweep in and save them or letthem figure it out, and we've
had to make some hard choices.
We had.
But it was because it was goodfor them.
(23:44):
Right In the end.
Ben (23:45):
Right, right, it was a good lesson to learn.
Yeah, 100%, and I think thatthat helped me kind of set that
own pace with our kids, likelearning that I had to overcome
something.
And you know, my dad let mewalk through that and I'm
thankful, actually, that he did.
I'm thankful that he did makeme pay for it and it was.
(24:09):
I mean, he should have.
It was my mistake and it was mydoing, but it was still a hard,
hard lesson to learn.
What about you?
You got some lessons.
Liz (24:13):
Oh, I do.
I was just thinking about um inmy business a lot of times, um
I would.
It was this concept of goingfor no.
So, my business was in saleswith a that's a book right.
Yeah, it is actually with abeauty company and so I had to
learn how to basically goagainst all the resistance, to
(24:35):
build resilience in myself, andso being in sales if any of you
are in sales, you know what I'mtalking about because you put
yourself out there and it's like, okay, nobody's saying yes, and
this is really embarrassing.
But I believe in what I'm doing.
I love this product.
I believe it's going to helpothers, and so this concept of
going for no, it's like you gothrough all the no's to get to
(24:57):
the yes.
Now there is a book it's calledgo for no and maybe we can link
it.
Um, it'll be on Amazon, right,we're going to do that.
Ben (25:03):
Okay.
Liz (25:04):
And so a great book, quick read.
It's only like maybe 70 pagesor something, so it's something
that you could probably readwithin an hour or so.
Uh, but what I would do in mybusiness?
Literally, I would sit down, Iwould make a hundred bubbles,
circles, and I would make 100attempts, because I can control
how many attempts I can make,but I can't control whether
(25:26):
people are going to say no oryes.
But, I got to that place where Iknew that if I got at least
every out of every 10 attempts,I would get nine no's and one
yes.
Ben (25:36):
Oh interesting, you got it down to a formula.
Liz (25:38):
Uh-huh, I did because working in my business and so
after doing this, year in andyear out, building my customer
base, building basically mybusiness what I found is that I
had to go into this like abuffalo, go straight into the
storm and make the decision thatDid you have horns no, oh my
gosh.
Ben (25:59):
Wow Okay.
Liz (26:02):
Listen here, mr Mud Bogger.
Yeah, I'm onto you, but anyway,I had to do this in order to
build my business.
And going for no, you reallycannot be fragile in that.
You build a resilience, and sowhat has come out of that, after
14 years of building mybusiness, is I'm okay because I
(26:22):
didn't take it personal anymore.
Ben (26:24):
Would you say that you needed the nose, you needed the
friction in order to beconfident?
Liz (26:30):
Well and to be confident to get to the yes.
And then when the yes came, itwas so much more sweeter, Like
it was just, it was wonderful toget the yes you know to make
the appointment and or to makethe sale.
Ben (26:42):
Do you think people just sometimes give up before they
even get the opportunity for theyes?
Liz (26:48):
Absolutely.
I mean in any area of life.
This doesn't just have to beyou know within what my
circumstances, but I coached alot of people on my team and
they would give up.
And I'm like, if you just keepgoing, you will see the results.
Ben (27:02):
So is it a little bit like crack when you get that first?
Yes, you just want more.
Liz (27:07):
Oh Lord, have mercy.
Ben (27:08):
I mean not that I know what that's like.
Yeah, what the heck are you?
What a terrible scenario.
Liz (27:13):
Yeah, let's find something else, like caffeine?
Ben (27:17):
Sure, it's even worse, oh my gosh, yeah, sure, it's even
worse.
Liz (27:22):
Yeah, how about the first time you give kids cotton candy
and they're like oh, I want more.
Ben (27:33):
It tastes so good, I mean, I feel like that's a better
example, than, anyway, what arewe talking about?
Liz (27:38):
Okay, so the point that you , you want resist.
It's good to have resistanceand also, too, I find that when
you go through things, when youare faced with trials and
tribulations, when you are inthe presence of others who are
walking through that, therebecause you have this resilience
, they connect with you.
There is a an understandingthat maybe, if you just
(28:00):
everything was always so easy,people just do not understand.
I will also say moreauthenticity.
But I will also say too, that ifyou have people who that you're
around that have neverexperienced anything hard
whatsoever, they're totallyunrelatable.
Ben (28:14):
Like it's just they don't have compassion or empathy.
Liz (28:17):
Yes, I agree, right, and what is that scripture that you
read?
I think it was out of Isaiah,or maybe it was out of Psalms.
Ben (28:25):
Oh, it was good for me to be afflicted so that I might
learn your statutes.
That's in Psalms.
Liz (28:28):
Psalms Okay.
Ben (28:29):
And that man.
That verse has come back somany times in the last year,
just in our life.
But yeah, you're right, likeit's good for that affliction to
happen so that I might learnyour statutes.
Liz (28:42):
Talking about the Lord.
Ben (28:49):
Talking about the Lord.
It's David, I believe, butthat's such a crazy perspective.
I was glad or it was good forme to be afflicted so that I
might learn your statutes, and Ithink that's kind of exactly
seeing the nose almost as fuelin order for you to grow in your
business.
Liz (29:03):
Yep and I ended up having a very successful business.
Ben (29:06):
Yeah.
Liz (29:06):
Because I was the buffalo that turned into the storm.
Ben (29:09):
And you went for it.
Liz (29:10):
Without horns.
Ben (29:13):
I don't know your horns come out sometimes.
Liz (29:14):
Stop Moving on, moving on.
Ben (29:17):
Let's talk about it so what can we take, like, let's talk
about a few practicals withraising kids to be anti-fragile,
like we've talked about?
Liz (29:26):
what anti-fragile.
Ben (29:27):
The concept is we talk about even our own life, related
it to one story about me beinga kid.
Um, but like what?
Like today's parenting culture,right, oh?
Yeah we don't want them to get.
We don't want them to get hurt,we don't want them to
experience any kind of danger.
You know we're so paranoidabout strangers that you know we
(29:48):
keep our kids like indoors andunder a watchful eye all the
time.
And you know, sometimes wetrade out some physical play for
screens because we thinkscreens are safer.
Liz (29:58):
Oh boy, okay, that's going to be an episode that we're
going to have to get on anotherday because this is a hot topic.
Ben (30:06):
We got news for you it ain't safer.
Liz (30:08):
It is not safer and at some point in time, we're going to
tackle this because this isdefinitely something that we
need to talk about what you justsaid, but we're talking about
fragile and anti-fragile.
We'll go for another hour thatwill go for a whole another
couple hours, if we get ontothat.
Ben (30:20):
That would go for a whole nother couple hours.
Oh man, If we get onto thatthat's a deep dive.
That's it.
Yeah, so, okay.
So let's break it down.
So we've got some physicalexamples of how to build
anti-fragile kids right.
Here's a real simple one.
Let them climb trees.
Liz (30:35):
Ooh, I have a funny story about that real quick.
Ben (30:38):
Okay, let's hear it.
Liz (30:38):
So do you remember when we went to Williamsburg, virginia,
last year?
And yeah, okay, our kids can besometimes like the Von Trapp
family, not just because there'sa bajillion of them, but I mean
, they're up in trees, like.
They're just like, oh, there'sa climbing tree and the shoes
come off and they're up the tree, like it's just how it is.
So we were in Williamsburg withyour parents and having a
wonderful family vacation, whichwe're enjoying.
(31:00):
We're at the ColonialWilliamsburg, so it's like
really cool, you should go visitif you've never been.
Great American history.
Anyway, we're waiting for thetrolley and there's a great
climbing tree and what do ourkids do?
They take their shoes off andthey're up, high up in the tree.
Now, I'm used to our kidsclimbing, you're used to our
kids climbing.
The grandparents are prettymuch used to it, but all the
(31:23):
other grandparents because wewere the only ones with kids
this day, none of them are usedto the kids climbing, and so
there were people freaking outaround us and so I had to go
over.
Ben (31:31):
Yeah, because they were pretty high.
Yeah, a little too high forcomfort.
Liz (31:36):
Some of them yeah, Some of them were Not all of them, but
I'm like, hey guys, I need youto come down from the tree.
And then when they came down,they're like mom, we were fine,
why don't we have to get down?
I'm like everybody else didn'tthink so.
They're about to call the firedepartment.
Ben (31:46):
We need to teach those grandparents about anti-firing.
Oh yeah, good luck, so withinreason, right, but like, let
them experience a little bit ofdangerous play.
I think that's kind of theconcept.
Like kind of the concept Like,don't be so quick to keep them
from every danger, allow them toexperience reasonable danger.
Liz (32:07):
Right yeah, as long as they're not like in serious
harm's way.
Exactly Well, and there's alsoall this development stuff
that's out there about when kidschildren are, you know,
balancing, or they're up highand they feel the sway, or you
know I'm just talking about thisbecause of a tree, but there's
so much that happens where theyexperience the limit of their
bodies and that's part of theirdevelopment.
Ben (32:30):
And so, if we?
Liz (32:31):
keep right.
It's how they learn and we keepkeeping them from that
experience because we're soafraid they're going to fall off
two feet.
How are they learning?
I'm just saying how are theylearning?
Okay, moving on.
Ben (32:42):
So another one is allow them some rough play right With
one another, Some rough housing.
Liz (32:49):
Okay.
Ben (32:50):
And on top of that here's one that can kind of go along
with it.
Liz (32:53):
Well, I'm just hold on.
Of course you put rough play inthere.
I mean, you are the dad, you'rethe dad, dad, you're the dad.
What?
Yes, and your mom and I wouldagree, and my mom would agree
that sometimes it's a littlelike, especially with boys, but
you know what?
They're having so much fun andthey're just tumbling.
It makes me think of SwissFamily Robinson when they're
roughhousing.
Ben (33:14):
Yeah, let's get back to some of that, right?
I mean it's okay to roughhouse,I know, you know it can get out
of hand it can but that's thepoint, right.
Let it get out of hand a littlebit.
Let them experience thelimitations of getting into the
rough part of roughhousing sothat they can find limits.
And when you find the limits,that's where growth happens.
Liz (33:37):
Right, I agree.
Ben (33:39):
That's where you learn the next time.
Hey, that kind of hurt when wewent that far.
Liz (33:44):
Yep.
Ben (33:44):
And so I guess that's the point right.
It's like we try to keep ourkids in comfort, away from
danger, so much so thatsometimes we just don't know our
limits Right, and that'sactually not a good thing.
No, it can be a bad thing.
Liz (33:58):
What about when you used to wrestle with your brother?
Yeah, oh man, let's bring thatup.
Ben (34:05):
Yeah Well, my brother.
He was actually a lot strongerthan me as related to how old I
was right.
So when he was in 10th grade,when I was in 10th grade, he was
just so much stronger.
I was two and a half yearsolder, so I think he was a
sophomore.
I was a senior and I went towrestle with him in high school.
Liz (34:29):
He was on the wrestling team oh, I didn't even realize
he was working out.
He was on the wrestling teamyeah, like you wore one of those
singlets and everything I don'tknow about all that, I never I
never.
Ben (34:38):
I don't think I ever saw him.
Liz (34:38):
Benjamin.
Ben (34:40):
That's pretty bad on me.
Liz (34:43):
Okay, keep going, Sorry brother.
Ben (34:45):
But I remember the day that I tried to take him down
wrestling Uh-huh and he wasbigger than me.
He was actually bigger than mein 10th grade, I think.
Yeah, he'd surpassed my weightand he was just physically
bigger and stronger.
Liz (35:00):
He was bulking up.
Ben (35:01):
He was bulking up and I could still take him for a
little while when he had, whenhe caught me size wise.
But I remember the day where Itried to take him down wrestling
and all of a sudden the tablesturned and I could no longer
take him down and said he was ontop and he was like pindya it
was like oh shoot just like Nalain.
Lion King Pindja.
Liz (35:23):
Pindja, pindja.
Yeah, I forgot where I wasgoing with all that, but anyways
, well, anyway, roughhousing.
Ben (35:28):
Roughhousing, yeah, and to go along with that.
I guess the thing aboutphysical play right is we don't
have to rescue them from everyminor injury, right?
We want to be sensible.
We want to make sure they'resafe from doing something
(35:48):
catastrophic, but at the sametime, we actually need them to
figure out their own limitations.
We need them to bump up againstsome of their limitations,
experience the pain of maybemaking mistakes because of those
limitations, and to learnthrough that process.
Liz (35:57):
Yep, it's a learning process.
It is, it is.
Ben (36:00):
And I mean, yeah, that's how we get better.
What about emotionalanti-fragility?
Liz (36:07):
Well, I just watched an episode on when Calls the Heart.
Ben (36:10):
Oh, it's your favorite show .
Liz (36:13):
It was about this.
The girls and I like watchingit.
We make a cup of tea and turnit on.
Ben (36:18):
Surprisingly, the boys don't always watch it.
Liz (36:21):
Actually they've enjoyed it A few.
Ben (36:23):
Yeah, a few of the boys have.
Liz (36:25):
They come in, they trickle in, but anyway.
So on this particular episode,one of the characters was
falling in love with this oneboy and it was obvious that he
was not into her, like she wasinto him.
And so the teacher tried tohave a conversation with her to
kind of like navigate and helpher navigate her heart.
(36:45):
And she wasn't going to listento it.
And so eventually the girl wentto the boy and like, asked him
to go up on a picnic and heturned her down and her heart
was broken.
And so in the whole episode,what was playing out as I was
watching with the girls whichwas really great because it
brought up some conversationtopics between the girls and I,
which I wasn't ready to have,all those conversations, but
(37:06):
since it was presented but no,in all seriousness, like she
wanted to prevent this younglady from having her heart
broken because she knew that theboy wasn't into her but she had
to learn it on her own.
She had to learn the hard wayshe had to learn the hard way,
so pretty good episode.
Ben (37:23):
Yeah, and you don't, I mean you don't want your kids
necessarily like just to goheadlong into some of those
experiences, but again it's thatsometimes we learn the best
through pain.
Liz (37:34):
Yep, I know I'm like that.
I mean I want wisdom and I wantyou know, but sometimes it's
like how do you get the wisdom,though?
Right From myself, but I'msaying like I want people to
speak into the situation andgive me wisdom.
I mean, maybe that's part of mematuring and growing older, but
you know, sometimes there'ssome things where people that
I've I've heard them say andit's like yeah, yeah, yeah, and
(37:54):
then when I'm faced with it, Istill think my own way and then
pursue it and discover gosh,they were right, Humble pie.
Ben (38:03):
Humble pie, humble pie, yeah, so okay.
So that's pretty interesting,so experiencing disappointments.
One other thing too, as parents, we can do is don't always be
quick to intervene in socialconflicts.
So if there is a conflictsocially between kids, you mean
within the family or withinother kids.
(38:25):
It could be both.
It could be both contexts,right?
So if there's somethinghappening, maybe give your kid
the benefit of the doubt, aslong as you're saying that it's
not heading in a harmfuldirection.
Liz (38:35):
So you're going to preference that.
Ben (38:36):
But maybe you start asking some leading questions.
Maybe just don't intervene soquickly.
But as they mature, as theystart to grow, maybe you're less
and less kind of hands-on,maybe you take your hands off
and you kind of see how theywork it out.
Liz (38:50):
Well, we've done that in our parenting because there's
arguing, that goes on.
I mean, when you have ahousehold with people, there's
going to be moments, and that'sokay.
Conflict is good.
It's how you handle theconflict.
And so I think there's timeswhere you and I have stepped in,
but then there's times where,like, just let it be, or that
(39:11):
famous line, y'all figure it out, or I'm going to figure it out
for you and you better believethey figure it out right.
They don't always like it whenwe figure it out nope, and so
they better quickly resolvetheir conflict and figure it out
now.
There has been times where wehave had to bring the party into
our room and yep, you knowguide them yeah and have a
conversation and you know,because they just can't get over
(39:34):
the hump, for whatever it is,especially as they've been
developing as teenagers with allthe hormones and the
sensitivities and all theemotions, all the things, all
the things.
Ben (39:45):
That's okay.
So yeah, emotions right.
Liz (39:47):
Right.
Ben (39:48):
Like teaching them how to process those emotions too.
I think that's important Notjust avoid negative emotions,
but when you have them, what doyou do with them?
Liz (39:56):
Right, exactly.
Ben (39:58):
How do you let those emotions help guide you to a
better, mature place, right?
So, instead of running fromthem?
You know why, don't?
Yeah, I guess, like, how can wehelp our kids understand what
they are, why they're havingthose emotions?
And then what you can do tokind of let those emotions guide
(40:20):
you back to a place of maturity, not stay in those emotions.
Liz (40:23):
True, but I also just want to say, sometimes with teenage
young ladies, okay, I'm out ofmy element Way over there.
Sometimes I just need a goodcry.
Yeah, I mean, that happened,what just a week ago?
And we had a daughter who wasjust.
She just needed a good cry andI saw myself in her, because
there's sometimes I just need agood cry.
(40:45):
I don't even know why I'memotional.
Ben (40:47):
I'm just emotional.
I need a good cry every now andthen.
No you're solid as a rock.
What are you talking about?
I'm a softie.
Liz (40:54):
You actually are a softie, I did.
But even in the midst of that,like saying hey, you know, she
was just crying and I said youknow what's going on?
Why are you crying?
She's like I don't know, I'mjust emotional, and I thought,
well, I know why you'reemotional.
The writing's on the wall.
If you have teenage daughters,you understand.
But anyway, and then she justcried, I just held her and then
(41:21):
we started teaching moment forboth of us to actually look at
what's going on here.
Why am I feeling this way?
So, yeah, that's good, that'sgood.
Ben (41:30):
Okay, maybe the last topic here.
Liz (41:33):
What is?
Ben (41:33):
it In our anti-fragility for kids spiritual
anti-fragility.
Good.
So one of the things that welike to do with our kids is ask
(42:06):
them hard questions.
Yep, we like to kind of put,put it out there, like so some
of the more intense topicswithin faith.
We like to talk about them, welike to discuss them.
You know, whether it be, Idon't know, matters of racism or
diversity, once saved, alwayssaved, giftings with different
denominations believe aboutdifferent things.
We try to bring it up, we tryto have healthy discussions and
we try to set the stage whereit's like no question is a dumb
question, and even the questionof faith in particular, right,
like some doubts, like let's notrun away from it, let's expose
(42:27):
it in our family setting andtackle it together, and so I
think that is a good way to helpbring some anti-fragility into
your kid's spiritual development.
Liz (42:41):
Well, and so they're not shocked.
Yes, Either Right.
I mean we need to be havingthese conversations we would
rather have them be shocked atour home.
Yes.
Ben (42:47):
Than out of the world.
Well, and, and I'm thinking, ofsex ed and family devotions
right, oh Lord, of course hebrought that up, that was last
episode.
Liz (42:55):
Wow, if you want to hear a shocker.
Ben (42:57):
Go to the last episode.
Liz (42:59):
And I just listened to that episode and I was.
Ben (43:01):
You were shocked, weren't you?
Liz (43:02):
I was shocked again.
I was really really.
Ben (43:07):
But I guess the point is is like we want them, at the end
of the day, to develop their ownfaith and so we can start
asking some of those wrestlingquestions in our own home where
we can help bring some guidance,and so we want them to struggle
.
I know that sounds weird.
We want them to struggle withthe concept of faith while
(43:28):
they're at home.
And so we want them to just, Iguess, wrestle with some of
those questions and have thosediscussions with us, with their
siblings, with other friends,and we try to foster some of
that.
So another thing is that we tryto bring that concept of trials
(43:50):
as growth.
So back to our scripturereferences that we spoke about
earlier, let's reframe whenwe're, when the kids are going
through tough times and they'regoing through something hard.
Let's just not focus on thehardship.
Let's focus about what'shappening while they're going
through the hardship.
Liz (44:09):
Now, what do you mean?
What's happening?
Ben (44:10):
What's being developed in them?
Liz (44:12):
Oh, you mean a character.
What's the?
Ben (44:13):
opportunity for a character change in the midst of the
hardship.
Liz (44:19):
Well, I'm just thinking.
I mean, can I share an example?
Ben (44:21):
I'm just thinking.
Liz (44:21):
Recently there was a situation that was happening
among the girlfriends of one ofour daughters and it was, you
know, pretty.
One of the friends wasn't beingnice to our daughter and
there's just like thisconsistency over a week or two
and it was hurting our daughterand I just said, hey, let's take
a second and let's putourselves in her shoes and think
(44:44):
about what she's going through,and it just helped to give
empathy.
But that was what was beingbuilt in our daughter
understanding and I saidhonestly, let's just pray for
her and wouldn't you know it?
Within a day everything wasback to normal, you know.
Um right and so, but I saw acharacter, character being
developed, developed in ourdaughter.
(45:04):
Yeah, yeah.
Ben (45:05):
Yeah, going through something a little difficult,
and one of the things, too, thatI think we've done even
recently is just invited theminto some of our own struggles.
Liz (45:14):
Absolutely Right.
Ben (45:15):
We're like, we're not perfect, we're not going to try
to put on airs.
Nope, and instead of likebeating around the bush or
trying to hide something thatmommy or daddy is going through,
like why not just talk about itNow?
Obviously you got to be, youknow, sensical and use age
appropriateness.
Liz (45:30):
Right, absolutely.
Ben (45:31):
But if it's something that you can share with the family
and talk about openly your ownstruggles, maybe you have your
own doubts, right.
Liz (45:40):
Right.
Ben (45:41):
And just bring that before the family, not obviously trying
to instill doubt in them, buttalk about how you dance around
your own doubts or how youovercome your own doubts and
what you do, and I think that'simportant because it allows them
to see you as authentic.
Liz (45:56):
Well, yeah, true and relatable and relatable, that's
what it is.
Yeah, and we, you know, we, Ihope we're building that within
our kids.
We work hard on that.
Ben (46:06):
Yeah, we really do.
Yeah, we do Try to be as openand transparent as possible.
So, yeah, I think those aresome three key areas where
trying to develop anti-fragilityin your children is important
and practical and Build grit.
(46:26):
Yeah, build some grit.
That's a good analogy.
Build some grit.
There's a book by angeladuckworth oh, yeah, grit, yes,
yes and another uh book, as itrelates to spiritual
anti-fragility, is calledraising passionate jesus
followers, and that's by philand diane comer, and, uh, that's
(46:48):
another good one.
So what are what are some, Iguess, takeaway verses that
we've got for today?
Liz (46:54):
all right, I I'm excited about these verses.
The first one is second Timothyuh for verse uh.
Chapter one, verse seven.
It says for God.
This is one of my most favoriteverses.
It's for God has not given us aspirit of fear, but a power,
love and a sound mind.
Sound mind.
Ben (47:09):
I like that, and Proverbs 24, 10 says if you falter in a
time of trouble, how small isyour strength?
So that kind of goes back tothat anti-fragility concept.
Right, we want strength thatsupersedes our own times of
trouble.
Yes, and the only way I feel tobuild that strength is to go
(47:29):
through some trouble, somesmaller troubles hopefully, so
that in the day of trouble youcan stand.
So we need a little resistance.
Liz (47:37):
We need a little wind.
We do.
We need some fungus.
Ben (47:42):
Some bacteria, some germs.
I need some fungi in my life.
I need to rip up my muscles.
Liz (47:47):
Rip them on up.
Ben (47:48):
Yeah, get strong.
We need to be like Buffalo andturn right into the storm and go
for no, that's right.
Liz (47:55):
And not be noodles.
Ben (47:56):
Man, I think you just threw all of the analogies in the one
sentence.
Liz (47:59):
Take every bit of bubble wrap and pop it with Nerf guns.
Ben (48:03):
Oh yeah, Nerf gun war with bubble wrap and then put needles
on the end of the darts.
No, no, no.
Liz (48:09):
No, don't do that.
But we do have Nerf gun wars inour house and they are epic and
they are intense and Nerf gunwars in our house and they are
epic and they are intense andthere's a lot of pickup that
comes afterwards.
Ben (48:16):
Oh, lots.
Liz (48:17):
I mean we have like a whole huge Trader Joe's bag of
nothing but the Nerf gun bullets.
Oh yeah, Like a whole huge binof them and the kids just go to
town.
We also have paintball guns.
How many paintball guns do wehave, Ben?
You put me on the spot.
(48:37):
Um, a better question would behow?
Ben (48:38):
many paintball guns do we have?
Liz (48:39):
that work.
I have no idea how many.
Probably like two.
Two out of how many guns?
Ben (48:43):
Two out of probably, like I don't know, like 20.
Liz (48:45):
We, I, that's okay.
Ben (48:47):
Yeah, I get a little.
Liz (48:48):
You think so?
Ben (48:49):
Collecting.
Liz (48:50):
Well, but the thing is is that we had a 10 yearyear-old's
birthday who wanted to have apaintball gun war.
Ben (48:55):
We did, and I found a good deal, and you did find a good
deal and you're resourceful, andthen you became Epic Dad, and
then we invited all the dadswith their sons and it was very
epic.
Liz (49:07):
But it was hilarious because who do you think, do you
remember?
Who do you think was more intoit?
The boys or their dads?
You think was more into it theboys or their dads?
You mean the boys or the boys?
Yeah, you guys, it washilarious because these dads
were running around like incamouflage you would have
thought it was a full-on war.
Ben (49:25):
May or may not have had a ghillie suit yes, I don't even
know what that is I look like abush yeah, he.
Liz (49:30):
Oh, yes, you do have that.
Were wearing that, but itwasn't padded.
Ben (49:36):
No, no, I took it like a real man One person came in a
total snowsuit.
Yeah, they came in a snowsuit.
They didn't want to get hurt.
Liz (49:43):
Yeah, they didn't.
But what was so funny is afterthat resistant war of building
endurance and being like abuffalo and our whole backyard
with all these bases and youguys were playing catch up with
the flag and everybody hadradios with earpieces and all
that it got a little intense.
It got very intense, verycompetitive and all the wives,
(50:03):
we were inside the house withall the other children running
from one side of the house tothe other side of the house, to
the other side to watch all thiswar going on around our house.
But the dads were really soreand I remember they were having
to take Epsom salt baths, somehad to go get massages, some
went to the chiropractor.
Yeah yeah, they're not littleanymore, are they?
Ben (50:26):
Nope, nope, nope.
Liz (50:28):
But I do remember that that was funny.
Ben (50:30):
It was a good time.
I know Low resistance training.
Liz (50:32):
So we're not going to take bubble wrap and shoot paintballs
.
Ben (50:35):
No, we're just going to take it.
Liz (50:37):
We're just going to take it .
We're just going to take it.
Well, you guys, thank you somuch for being a part of our One
Blessed Mess today, and I wantto say thank you so much for all
of your messages, your emails,your DMs.
We do have a website.
It iswwwour1numeric1blessedmesscom.
Of course, you can go there.
(50:57):
There's like a contact area,you can reach out to us, and so
we've gotten some, you know,some comments and questions from
you guys, and we love it.
You know, we are so thankfuland so grateful.
We're doing this honestlybecause we?
Ben (51:12):
why are we doing this Ben Like?
Why are we?
Liz (51:12):
doing this podcast?
Why are we doing this, Ben?
Ben (51:13):
Like, why are we doing this podcast?
We're doing this because wethought, man, what would our
younger selves love to haveknown, you know, from a couple
like us.
And so if we could go back intime and say, hey, here's what
you need to know when you'rejust starting out with
parenthood, or just starting outwith kids, or even marriage, or
maybe even business like,here's some things that you
should know, and so we justwanted to serve the larger body
(51:36):
of Christ and just be a resource, and not that we have all the
answers.
We don't.
Liz (51:40):
We're still learning things .
No, we're not expertswhatsoever.
Ben (51:42):
Yeah we're definitely not experts.
Liz (51:55):
But we've had a few life experiences and we just figured,
hey, we might as well share.
Well, and also, too, I mean Ihope even today's subject just
kind of gets people chewing onsome things, because I mean,
this, this whole thing came outof you and I having a coffee
date and talking about asituation, and then next thing,
I know it's like, okay, we'regoing to do an episode on this
and so, um, you know, we reallywe really hope that it blesses
you and we love hearing from you, we love seeing your comments.
Um, please like this episode.
If you could just hit the likebutton or the heart or the star
(52:18):
or whatever it is, by theplatform that you're listening
to this on or watching, ifyou're on YouTube and then also
to share, please pass this on toanybody that you think it would
be valuable to them, because Iknow it has definitely been
valuable for us.
And follow us on Instagram.
We do have a Facebook page ourone blessed mess.
Follow us there.
Like us there.
(52:38):
While there's a lot offollowing and liking, Sounds
kind of funny and subscribe.
Oh yeah, and subscribe likeshare, follow and subscribe.
But we are so thankful that youwere here with us today and
we're so excited because wecan't wait to see you and until
next time.
And so what we love to say isum, embrace your beautiful mess,
because if our mess is blessed,then we know, so can yours.
(53:01):
That's right.
Welcome to our One Blessed Mess.
This is Ben and Liz, and we'rehere telling our story of
raising six kids in eight years,managing our entrepreneurial
home with two businesses,homeschooling, and currently
raising and navigating life withfour teenagers.
Plus, we have seven chickens,two dogs, and that's just to
keep life interesting, and,trust me, it's interesting.
(00:29):
Today's conversation topic isabout what, ben?
What are we talking about?
Ben (00:33):
today.
Well, before we get to thetopic, I just want to say how
nice your hair looks.
Liz (00:38):
Aw, thank you.
Ben (00:39):
You're so kind, I've been trying to go to compliment
school.
Liz (00:42):
Yes, we need to do an episode on compliment school.
It's taken 20 years.
Ben (00:46):
Yeah, I'm a slow learner, you're graduating.
I'm a slow learner, you'regraduating.
Yeah, 20 years to graduate fromcompliment school.
Liz (00:51):
I love it.
You're getting an A plus, plus,plus plus.
Ben (00:55):
Well, I didn't start off with that.
No, no, no, it's okay, but it'sall right.
Yeah, another topic for anotherday.
Liz (01:00):
It's okay, you think it.
It doesn't come out of here tohere.
Yeah, yeah, that's the problem.
Ben (01:05):
There's a disconnect between here and here.
Liz (01:09):
Yeah, so anyways, we're working on it.
We're working on it, but thankyou, thank you for saying that.
I appreciate it.
Ben (01:14):
You're welcome.
So today's topic is raisinganti-fragile kids Yep.
Liz (01:25):
What in the world does that even mean?
That is quite the mouthful.
What does that even mean?
Ben (01:30):
I'm glad you asked, so you might have noticed that our
society loves to protect somewould even say coddle children.
That's true, Right.
Some would even say coddlechildren.
Liz (01:42):
That's true.
Ben (01:43):
Right.
So we're all about trying toremove harm, discomfort, even
fatigue, from our kids, becausewe take on that protector role
as parents.
Liz (01:56):
Yes, we do.
Ben (01:57):
And we want to keep our kids from being upset.
But there's kind of a negativeattached to an extreme form of
that protection.
And so we're going to talkabout what that negative is.
I'm not smart enough to come upwith that word, Someone else
did but the whole concept isthat when you're being too
(02:20):
protective, you're not lettingthe natural anti-fragile part in
your children to develop.
Liz (02:29):
So basically you're putting your kids in bubble wrap.
Is that what you're saying?
Pretty much Okay.
Ben (02:33):
I understand Pretty much.
Liz (02:34):
But you know what?
I can kind of relate to thatdiscomfort and fatigue.
I mean I feel like-.
Ben (02:40):
You personally?
Huh, yeah, me personally.
Oh, tell us about this relating.
Liz (02:44):
Maybe six times in my life.
Ben (02:47):
Well, yeah, six times that I didn't experience that.
Liz (02:50):
No, you certainly didn't.
Ben (02:51):
I mean, I had some sympathy cravings and let me tell you I
got really tired watching yougive birth.
Liz (02:57):
This is actually true.
Ben (02:58):
I had to take a nap once or twice.
Liz (03:06):
Oh my gosh, I don't even want to get into the nap
schedule.
I really don't Okay.
Yeah, this is true, but I wasjust thinking of a moment when I
was pregnant with number fourand I was like very fatigued,
very discomforted.
Ben (03:15):
Is it bad that I had to go through the names of which one
number four was Like when yousaid number four.
I was like oh shoot, which oneis that?
Liz (03:23):
That is bad.
No, our kids are going to watchthis.
That's terrible.
And our family's going to watchit.
Okay, but no, I I remember yourdad was visiting us.
We lived far, far away from ourfamily, our parents.
And I was pregnant with numberfour.
You were at work, your dad wasvisiting, he was downstairs
taking a nap and I want it was aFriday night and I wanted to
have this really wonderful mealwith you and your dad and the
(03:46):
kids, and so I was, of course,pregnant, because all of our
stories are around beingpregnant.
Ben (03:52):
Were you barefoot though.
Liz (03:53):
Absolutely yes.
Actually, this time I reallywas barefoot.
Ben (03:56):
Just wanted to set the stage.
That's hilarious.
Glad we got that.
Liz (03:59):
And I had an apron on.
Ben (04:00):
Okay, wow, chickens in the yard.
Well, no, we didn't.
Was chickens in the yard.
Liz (04:02):
Well, we didn't have chickens but I was very hot
because it was like the end ofthe pregnancy, it was like the
end of summer.
Ben (04:09):
Yep, yep, okay, okay.
Liz (04:11):
And so I was making this meal and every burner was going,
the oven was going, everythingwas going, and, lo and behold, I
look over and our cute littledog that we had, which was a
Yorkie poo named Deo.
I look over and Deo, forwhatever reason, he decided to
lift his leg on our trash canand use the restroom.
And I was like, are you kiddingme?
(04:33):
I'm so tired of bending overAny moms out there ever been at
the end of your pregnancy.
You're like I just I cannotpick up another toy.
I'm not picking up any morelaundry, Like you, just like it.
Just it hurts right, Especiallyat the end of the day.
So, anyway, this dog does thiscourse.
I put the dog outside and and Idon't know why he even did that
he's never done that before, butanyway he did it.
(04:54):
So I had to clean it up.
You know, get down there, cleanit all up.
Then we were potty training oursecond born and he had to go to
the bathroom.
He went running down the hall,didn't make it, went to the
bathroom in the hallway and Iremember coming to the hallway
and I was so big and pregnant Iwas like there's no way I can
(05:14):
leap over all of this, Like I'mnot going to leap.
I'm not a gazelle.
Right now I look like one ofthose hippopotamuses from Disney
and Fantasia, Like that's whatI'm thinking.
I'm like there's no way I'mgoing to leap over this.
So, anyway, somehow I clean itup, I get him all cleaned up and
the meanwhile your dad istaking a nap, which is fine.
I you know it was fine.
(05:35):
I didn't need him to comeupstairs, but you call me.
Why did you call me?
Ben (05:38):
Do you remember my car broke down.
Well, I thought it, it wouldn'tstart car broke down.
Liz (05:44):
Well, I thought it, it wouldn't start.
Ben (05:44):
Yeah, Like I think the battery something was going on
with the battery Battery died.
So yeah, I called him and thenI think he was going to come get
me Right.
Liz (05:49):
Yeah, you called me.
You said can you have my dadcome down?
Cause he didn't answer hisphone, cause he was sleeping.
So your dad had to go downtownto go meet you.
And of course your dad wakes up, he gets going, he heads on
(06:11):
down the interstate to meet you.
Then I get a phone call andsomebody in your parking lot, I
guess, jumped you.
Yeah, okay.
So then it was calling your dad, telling him to come back.
And so while all this ishappening, I've got bubbling
pots of food and stuff in theoven.
I'm hot, I'm barefoot,literally barefoot, and pregnant
.
And your dad comes in the doorand he could tell that I was
like a little bit on edge.
Ben (06:23):
Flustered.
Should we say flustered?
Liz (06:25):
Yeah, fatigued and distressed, that's what we're
talking about here.
Ben (06:29):
You might have been a little fragile, is what you're
saying?
Liz (06:30):
I was definitely fragile.
And so I heard our little girlcrying in her crib and he said
what can I do?
And I said you know what, canyou just go check on her, cause
she was waking up from her nap.
And so your dad went in thereand he was in there for a very
long time probably 10 minutesand then you came home and I
said hey, I don't know what'sgoing on, but you need to go
(06:52):
check on your dad.
He's been in there in a while.
And I was like don't even askme, I'm so tired, I just I wish
we had ordered pizza.
So what happened?
Ben (07:07):
So my turn to take over, because this is where it gets
really interesting.
I came home, you weredefinitely flustered and I run
back to find my dad who, lo andbehold, had taken an entire box
of the wet wipes and was wipingdown our daughter, the rails,
the walls, everything.
Liz (07:23):
Because but it wasn't working because it wasn't
working.
Ben (07:27):
It's taken one by one, one by one well, our daughter
decided to paint yes, the railsand the wall yes, yeah, and
herself with her own poop yeah,it was terrible and I know if
you've had kids, you've walkedin on this situation.
Liz (07:40):
well, the two of them are like talking down the hall and
it's kind of like whisperinghush but like intense and I'm
thinking what in the world isgoing on?
Well, I was on this situation.
Well, the two of them are liketalking down the hall and it's
kind of like whispering hush butlike intense and I'm thinking
what in the world is going on?
Ben (07:48):
Well, I was, yeah, I was like hey, this isn't working,
We've got to pull in bigger gunshere.
Liz (07:53):
And so I walk in to two dads, the dad and the grandpa,
with wet wipes, and a daughterstill covered in all kinds of
things.
She had painted herself verywell and you know, this story is
going to show up at her weddingbecause it's going to be
payback.
That's what it's going to be?
Ben (08:09):
No, it's going to be paintback.
That's what it is.
I don't think we would do thattoo.
Liz (08:14):
No, and she's going to hear this.
But but I mean, God bless youguys.
So of course I walk in andyou're like we got it, Don't
worry, Go finish dinner.
And I said, guys, put her inthe bathtub.
That's the first thing you do,so you start the water, you put
her in the bathtub.
And then I was like wet wipesare not going to happen.
Here's the cleaning.
You need paper towels.
Here's a trash can Like this ishow this is going to happen.
(08:37):
And then, and then whathappened?
Ben (08:39):
Well then, she decided to have round number two and she
pooped in the bathtub so god wejust can't get away from potty
humor.
No, we cannot.
That's why it's our one blessedmess, our one bm, our one bm,
but I mean really with theterritory I knew I remember
thinking during all of that andI was physically tired like
tired and I remember thinking inthat one of these days I'm
(09:01):
gonna laugh at the story.
Liz (09:02):
But today I'm telling the story and I'm still not really
laughing at the story.
Ben (09:06):
No, I'm still feeling a little fragile.
I'm laughing yeah.
Liz (09:11):
I love you.
Ben (09:11):
We need to make you a little more anti-fragile?
Liz (09:13):
I think so what are you going to do?
Wrap me in bubble wrap?
What?
Ben (09:15):
are you going to do?
Well, no, that's actuallyworking against the concept of
it.
Okay.
We should go into it.
We should go into the concept.
Yeah, let's talk about it.
This is good, yeah.
Liz (09:24):
And let's talk about how we got into this you and I were
out on a date.
Yeah, so you and I were on adate.
This topic came up.
I don't remember how it came up.
I don't either, and then itbecame this very long discussion
, and that just spurred you onto becoming a Mr Investigator
and you put on your learner hatand went to town.
(09:44):
Not me, Never, never you.
And so then you've come to meand you're like this should
really be an episode.
Ben (09:50):
Yeah.
And got pretty jazzed about it.
Liz (09:52):
Yeah, you've done a lot of research on this.
It's actually prettyfascinating.
Ben (09:55):
It is fascinating and this concept of anti-fragile that
comes from a book and it'swritten by an author, nassim
Tlaib.
And the book is called Anti-Fragile.
Go figure, but the definitionof anti-fragile is pretty
interesting.
So it goes beyond likeresilient or robustness, and
(10:20):
it's more about the actualability to get stronger when
exposed to stressors.
Right, okay, so anti-fragilemeans exactly the opposite of
fragile.
You need some discomfort, youneed some friction in order to
become stronger, and what'scrazy is that none of the
(10:42):
world's major languages have aword for that concept.
Liz (10:47):
Yeah, and that's crazy to me.
When we were talking about this, I said so you're literally
telling me that we do not have aword for what we're talking
about, except for anti-fragile.
Ben (10:56):
Except for the antithesis right.
So it's like we have fragilebut we don't have a word that
means anti-fragile.
We just have to sayanti-fragile.
Liz (11:05):
So interesting, we should make up one like servitarian.
Ben (11:10):
Well man, yeah, good call, I'll let you, I'll let you
noodle on that you can get backto me, oh Lord.
Maybe the listeners, they, theyhave a word they want to put in
the comments.
Liz (11:18):
Oh yeah, put it in the comments, you might come up with
one, that's right.
I, you might come up with one,that's right.
Ben (11:22):
I love that.
So let's go into a few examples, like where we see this concept
of anti-fragile at play Oneyour immune system.
Liz (11:32):
Oh yeah, that's so true.
Ben (11:49):
So if you don't allow your immune system to acquire germs
and then have a responsefeedback to that and get built
up from experiencing germs, youactually will suffer if you have
exposure to germs in the future.
So it's like you need thatability to experience.
It get stronger, get better,and then the next time it
happens, it gets stronger, itgets better.
So there needs to be thatstressor in order for them to
build strength in your immunesystem yeah, and that's why it's
okay for kids to get sick theyget germs, get dirty.
Liz (12:09):
Yeah, get germs and get well, and I'm thinking how many
colds do they say children needbefore they get to kindergarten?
Ben (12:14):
I forget the number but you know, we let our kids run
around outside without shoes onoh yeah, of course, get some
tetanus, get all the stuff.
No, we didn't do that, oh mygosh, I hope so.
Gee A little too fragile there.
So that's one example where yousee that in nature.
And then I really like thesecond one, so this other one.
(12:37):
There was this concept ofbiosphere that was done.
I think it was in the 80s.
It was called Biosphere.
That was done.
I think it was in the 80s.
It was called Biosphere 2.
Liz (12:45):
There apparently was a first one that failed miserably,
which our daughter informed usabout Our 16-year-old daughter.
Ben (12:50):
She knew she was like oh yeah, I know all about this.
Liz (12:52):
And we both looked at her and went what?
This is over dinner the othernight.
We're like you know about this,and and even mushrooms.
Like you need mushrooms becauseof what mushrooms do.
Ben (13:04):
It was very interesting.
So Biosphere 2,.
Liz (13:07):
I believe and hey, you're a fun guy.
Ben (13:09):
Oh my gosh.
Liz (13:11):
Wow, I had to throw that in there.
Well, just well.
Okay, sorry I broke the trainof thought.
Okay, keep going.
Ben (13:18):
So Biosphere 2 was an experiment and what we Basically
?
It was an entire enclosedsystem.
So nothing was going in,nothing was coming out Right,
and so they were trying tofigure out how we could get,
maybe life on another planet.
That was one of the ideas forthis experiment.
Liz (13:31):
Wait time out.
So is it like in a globe?
Ben (13:34):
Yeah, like a big sphere or half sphere.
It's like a dome and they allowsunlight in, but it was
completely controlled um outsideof.
You know the sunlight coming in?
Liz (13:47):
So this is like the Truman show yeah, almost yeah, exactly
Something like that.
Ben (13:51):
I think it was the eighties Wild, but the point of us
saying this is that in thisexperiment they they grew trees
inside the dome right and theytry to introduce animals and
stuff like that, I believe.
But one of the things thathappened that they noticed with
the trees- is since there was nostrong winds, that the root
(14:11):
systems from these trees wereactually shallow and the trees
fell over.
Liz (14:16):
Right.
Ben (14:17):
And collapsed from their own weight.
Because, they didn't have theresistance to grow against
Because there were no stressingfactors on the root system and
the root system didn't growstrong.
Liz (14:29):
Dude, that is so deep, there was no wind.
Ben (14:32):
There was no wind to buffer the tree and make it stress the
roots, where the stressresponse then made the roots go
deeper.
So, because there wasn't that,the tree couldn't support its
own weight.
Liz (14:43):
Makes me think of Psalm 1, one of my favorite Psalms.
Anyway, we're not talking aboutthat, but keep going.
This is good.
Ben (14:50):
So, and then here's another crazy example of something like
that in nature, with this kindof anti-fragile response.
Did you know that buffaloeswhen there's a storm out on the
plains?
Liz (15:02):
they yeah.
They don't run away from thestorm Right right, they turn
into it.
Ben (15:07):
They turn into it.
Liz (15:08):
It's wild.
Ben (15:09):
That is wild.
Liz (15:10):
There was a bunch floating around on social media about
that.
Ben (15:13):
Yeah, and the idea is that you get through the storm
quicker by running into it.
Liz (15:18):
Which makes sense yeah.
Ben (15:20):
But I mean, wow, what a metaphor.
Like, instead of running awayfrom the storms of our life,
like running through them, yeahWell, and turning.
Liz (15:28):
I mean turning and having the wherewithal to go ahead, be
like a buffalo and just headinto the storm and know you're
going to hit it, but know you'regoing to get through it.
Ben (15:39):
Yeah.
Liz (15:39):
I mean, that's another deep thing.
Ben (15:42):
That is very deep.
Yeah, you can unpack that for awhile.
Okay, so one last thing herefor another natural example
muscle growth.
Liz (15:48):
Oh yeah.
Ben (15:49):
Okay.
So if there's no stressors onyour muscles, they actually
won't grow.
So what I mean by that is whenyou use them and you stress them
and they have micro tears, theythey get rebuilt bigger and
better the next time.
So if you don't use yourmuscles to that stressor point,
(16:10):
you actually don't get biggermuscles, They'll become stronger
.
So you need that anti-fragilesystem in your muscles to
actually grow stronger.
Liz (16:15):
And all the women who are going through perimenopause and
menopause say amen, because weall got to be strong.
We don't want osteoporosis.
So what you don't have an amenfor that.
Ben (16:27):
Amen, A woman actually.
Liz (16:30):
Benjamin, sorry.
Ben (16:31):
Okay, speaking of, yes, scriptural references for this
concept, you might be askingyourself is that in the Bible?
We think so.
Yeah, we do.
Liz (16:42):
We do think it's in the Bible.
Ben (16:43):
Do you want to take that first verse?
Liz (16:44):
Sure, I'll take the first one.
This is James 1, 2, 3, 4.
It says consider it pure joy,my brothers and sisters,
whenever you face trials of manykinds, because you know that
the testing of your faithproduces perseverance.
Let perseverance finish itswork so that you may be mature
and complete, not lackinganything.
I do love that verse that youmay be mature and complete, not
(17:05):
lacking anything.
Ben (17:05):
I do love that verse.
Liz (17:06):
That's a hard one.
It is.
I do love it.
Ben (17:07):
It's hard because it's talking about hard things.
Liz (17:10):
It is, and I use that verse a lot with my business, to be
honest.
Ben (17:13):
But in some ways, that's the anti-fragile concept right
there.
Consider it pure joy.
Why would we consider trials ofmany kinds?
Liz (17:22):
pure joy.
Because of what?
Ben (17:23):
you get out of them Right.
Trials of many kinds, pure joybecause of what you get out of
them Right.
So if you never had trials,would you really even test your
faith?
Would it even really proveperseverance in your life?
Liz (17:33):
It's a good question.
Ben (17:34):
I don't know, I don't think it would.
I think we are made to beanti-fragile, even in our
spiritual relationship with theLord, where we need those
stressors in order to buildsomething of character strength.
So it's kind of an intensething.
Liz (17:49):
It is.
It's very intense, but I lovethat too, because in the end
it's going to be mature andcomplete, not lacking anything,
Not like yeah, that's crazy.
Ben (17:59):
So stress as a way to not lack anything.
Liz (18:02):
Yeah.
Ben (18:03):
Yikes, I know, I don't know if that would preach very well,
I mean, I'm having a hard timewith it just now.
So what's the next one here?
So Romans 5, 3 through 5.
Let's just read that.
So not only so, but we alsoglory in our sufferings, because
we know that suffering producesperseverance, perseverance,
(18:25):
character and character, hope.
So again, it's kind ofreinforcing that idea that we
should embrace our sufferingsbecause of what it produces,
right?
So, that anti-fragile system, Ithink is found in the Bible, and
as it relates to our spiritualformation, as it relates to our
(18:48):
spiritual formation, and so Ithink we've got a couple of
stories about this anti-fragile.
Liz (18:50):
You need to tell the one of what you did as a teenager.
Ben (18:54):
That's a hard lesson.
Liz (18:55):
That was a hard lesson Because you just told that one
to some of our kids.
Ben (18:59):
We did yeah Right before this we were talking about.
That Still brings up someinteresting feelings for sure.
So I have a story of when I wasa teen.
I was probably 16, 17, somewherein there, and I drove a Bronco
too.
It was my dad's old car thathe'd given me or let me drive,
(19:24):
and he liked that car.
He loved that car actually, andhe was kind of sad to let me
take it, but he knew I needed acar to drive around.
One thing, though, that he didtell me was that it was old and
it was not a mud bogging vehicle.
It did have four wheel driveand it looked like it could be a
mud bogging vehicle.
It did have four wheel driveand it looked like it could be a
(19:45):
mud bogging vehicle, and thiswas at a time in my life where I
was kind of testing someboundaries.
So, lo and behold, we have alake that every 20 years it just
disappears.
Liz (19:58):
It's wild.
It literally is so wild becauseyou can walk out to the bottom
of the lake there's like asinkhole that opens up, there's
literally like no water left.
Ben (20:05):
Sucks all the water out.
It's wild yeah.
Liz (20:07):
It's a phenomenon.
Ben (20:08):
It's a Florida thing.
We got wild stuff in Florida.
Liz (20:10):
What can we?
Ben (20:11):
say so.
Anyways, me seeing this happen,me having a four-wheel drive
vehicle, but my dad saying hey,don't get any ideas.
Guess what?
I got some ideas.
Liz (20:24):
Yes, you did.
And then what happened?
Ben (20:26):
So I went out to the dry lake bed with a buddy of mine
and we tried to go mud boggingand we got stuck, unfortunately,
all the water wasn't quitedrained out of all the mud yet.
So we found a little mud spotand got stuck and I had to shove
a carpet underneath the tiresto get out.
I mean it was kind of wild.
We were stuck for probably agood hour and eventually got out
(20:50):
.
The problem was, when we gotout the vehicle no longer made
it out of first gear.
So, we were in first gearpermanently.
Liz (20:59):
Yep Ruined your car.
Ben (21:01):
So I drove home very defeated, knowing that I
disobeyed my dad and oh, by theway, I had just won a website
contest.
I thought I was hot stuff.
I won 500 bucks.
It was the city of tallahassee,uh website um competition, and
(21:25):
I entered and I won, and I don'tremember the exact department
or whatever, but it was from thecity.
Yeah, I've got a city and so Igot 500 bucks and I, I mean as a
16 year old 17 year old was 500bucks in my pocket I thought I
mean, you won the lottery prettymuch yes.
Liz (21:42):
And so what happened?
Ben (21:44):
So I came home and told my dad.
Liz (21:46):
Yep.
Ben (21:47):
And obviously he was upset.
Liz (21:48):
Oh yeah, and then what did you have to do?
Ben (21:50):
And he told me well, son, all that money that you got, you
know it's going to go right tofixing the vehicle, Okay, and
that was a hard lesson to learn,very hard lesson to learn.
My dad could have said, hey,I'm sorry that happened, but
maybe we can split it or dosomething, but literally all the
(22:11):
money that I had just won, wentright into it, went right to
the vehicle.
Yeah, and I don't even thinkthat paid for all of it actually
.
Liz (22:16):
Probably not.
Not for what you did, yeah.
Ben (22:18):
It was a hard lesson.
I felt really low, Rachel, butanyways it was a hard lesson I
fell really low, go real highand then go real low.
But I have to say, learningthat lesson taught me so much.
Taught me so much about thevalue of money, number one.
Number two the value ofobedience.
Liz (22:35):
Right.
Ben (22:36):
And also a little bit of peer pressure, because I have a
feeling I was showing off alittle bit with my buddy and.
I probably wouldn't have madesuch a snap decision.
Liz (22:45):
I think I remember the buddy that you were with so, but
you learned a lesson there.
Ben (22:50):
I did I did and that and that.
Liz (22:52):
That gross.
Ben (22:53):
Yes, and I think that's kind of a little bit of the
point we want to make is thatour kids are actually hardwired
to be anti-fragile, where we aremade to rub up against
resistance, figure it out and bebetter for it.
And that was a time in my lifewhere I did that and it shaped
(23:15):
like who I was to become.
Liz (23:16):
Right, you grew up that day .
Ben (23:17):
I did, and a little bit yeah, not a lot, but a little
bit.
I grew up in, you know,different, some different ways.
Liz (23:23):
Well, and also, I'm just thinking that us parenting, you
know, there's a lot of timesthat we are faced with some
decisions on if we're going tolet these kids really feel the
brunt of their decisions or not.
Sweep in and save them or letthem figure it out, and we've
had to make some hard choices.
We had.
But it was because it was goodfor them.
(23:44):
Right In the end.
Ben (23:45):
Right, right, it was a good lesson to learn.
Yeah, 100%, and I think thatthat helped me kind of set that
own pace with our kids, likelearning that I had to overcome
something.
And you know, my dad let mewalk through that and I'm
thankful, actually, that he did.
I'm thankful that he did makeme pay for it and it was.
(24:09):
I mean, he should have.
It was my mistake and it was mydoing, but it was still a hard,
hard lesson to learn.
What about you?
You got some lessons.
Liz (24:13):
Oh, I do.
I was just thinking about um inmy business a lot of times, um
I would.
It was this concept of goingfor no.
So, my business was in saleswith a that's a book right.
Yeah, it is actually with abeauty company and so I had to
learn how to basically goagainst all the resistance, to
(24:35):
build resilience in myself, andso being in sales if any of you
are in sales, you know what I'mtalking about because you put
yourself out there and it's like, okay, nobody's saying yes, and
this is really embarrassing.
But I believe in what I'm doing.
I love this product.
I believe it's going to helpothers, and so this concept of
going for no, it's like you gothrough all the no's to get to
(24:57):
the yes.
Now there is a book it's calledgo for no and maybe we can link
it.
Um, it'll be on Amazon, right,we're going to do that.
Ben (25:03):
Okay.
Liz (25:04):
And so a great book, quick read.
It's only like maybe 70 pagesor something, so it's something
that you could probably readwithin an hour or so.
Uh, but what I would do in mybusiness?
Literally, I would sit down, Iwould make a hundred bubbles,
circles, and I would make 100attempts, because I can control
how many attempts I can make,but I can't control whether
(25:26):
people are going to say no oryes.
But, I got to that place where Iknew that if I got at least
every out of every 10 attempts,I would get nine no's and one
yes.
Ben (25:36):
Oh interesting, you got it down to a formula.
Liz (25:38):
Uh-huh, I did because working in my business and so
after doing this, year in andyear out, building my customer
base, building basically mybusiness what I found is that I
had to go into this like abuffalo, go straight into the
storm and make the decision thatDid you have horns no, oh my
gosh.
Ben (25:59):
Wow Okay.
Liz (26:02):
Listen here, mr Mud Bogger.
Yeah, I'm onto you, but anyway,I had to do this in order to
build my business.
And going for no, you reallycannot be fragile in that.
You build a resilience, and sowhat has come out of that, after
14 years of building mybusiness, is I'm okay because I
(26:22):
didn't take it personal anymore.
Ben (26:24):
Would you say that you needed the nose, you needed the
friction in order to beconfident?
Liz (26:30):
Well and to be confident to get to the yes.
And then when the yes came, itwas so much more sweeter, Like
it was just, it was wonderful toget the yes you know to make
the appointment and or to makethe sale.
Ben (26:42):
Do you think people just sometimes give up before they
even get the opportunity for theyes?
Liz (26:48):
Absolutely.
I mean in any area of life.
This doesn't just have to beyou know within what my
circumstances, but I coached alot of people on my team and
they would give up.
And I'm like, if you just keepgoing, you will see the results.
Ben (27:02):
So is it a little bit like crack when you get that first?
Yes, you just want more.
Liz (27:07):
Oh Lord, have mercy.
Ben (27:08):
I mean not that I know what that's like.
Yeah, what the heck are you?
What a terrible scenario.
Liz (27:13):
Yeah, let's find something else, like caffeine?
Ben (27:17):
Sure, it's even worse, oh my gosh, yeah, sure, it's even
worse.
Liz (27:22):
Yeah, how about the first time you give kids cotton candy
and they're like oh, I want more.
Ben (27:33):
It tastes so good, I mean, I feel like that's a better
example, than, anyway, what arewe talking about?
Liz (27:38):
Okay, so the point that you , you want resist.
It's good to have resistanceand also, too, I find that when
you go through things, when youare faced with trials and
tribulations, when you are inthe presence of others who are
walking through that, therebecause you have this resilience
, they connect with you.
There is a an understandingthat maybe, if you just
(28:00):
everything was always so easy,people just do not understand.
I will also say moreauthenticity.
But I will also say too, that ifyou have people who that you're
around that have neverexperienced anything hard
whatsoever, they're totallyunrelatable.
Ben (28:14):
Like it's just they don't have compassion or empathy.
Liz (28:17):
Yes, I agree, right, and what is that scripture that you
read?
I think it was out of Isaiah,or maybe it was out of Psalms.
Ben (28:25):
Oh, it was good for me to be afflicted so that I might
learn your statutes.
That's in Psalms.
Liz (28:28):
Psalms Okay.
Ben (28:29):
And that man.
That verse has come back somany times in the last year,
just in our life.
But yeah, you're right, likeit's good for that affliction to
happen so that I might learnyour statutes.
Liz (28:42):
Talking about the Lord.
Ben (28:49):
Talking about the Lord.
It's David, I believe, butthat's such a crazy perspective.
I was glad or it was good forme to be afflicted so that I
might learn your statutes, and Ithink that's kind of exactly
seeing the nose almost as fuelin order for you to grow in your
business.
Liz (29:03):
Yep and I ended up having a very successful business.
Ben (29:06):
Yeah.
Liz (29:06):
Because I was the buffalo that turned into the storm.
Ben (29:09):
And you went for it.
Liz (29:10):
Without horns.
Ben (29:13):
I don't know your horns come out sometimes.
Liz (29:14):
Stop Moving on, moving on.
Ben (29:17):
Let's talk about it so what can we take, like, let's talk
about a few practicals withraising kids to be anti-fragile,
like we've talked about?
Liz (29:26):
what anti-fragile.
Ben (29:27):
The concept is we talk about even our own life, related
it to one story about me beinga kid.
Um, but like what?
Like today's parenting culture,right, oh?
Yeah we don't want them to get.
We don't want them to get hurt,we don't want them to
experience any kind of danger.
You know we're so paranoidabout strangers that you know we
(29:48):
keep our kids like indoors andunder a watchful eye all the
time.
And you know, sometimes wetrade out some physical play for
screens because we thinkscreens are safer.
Liz (29:58):
Oh boy, okay, that's going to be an episode that we're
going to have to get on anotherday because this is a hot topic.
Ben (30:06):
We got news for you it ain't safer.
Liz (30:08):
It is not safer and at some point in time, we're going to
tackle this because this isdefinitely something that we
need to talk about what you justsaid, but we're talking about
fragile and anti-fragile.
We'll go for another hour thatwill go for a whole another
couple hours, if we get ontothat.
Ben (30:20):
That would go for a whole nother couple hours.
Oh man, If we get onto thatthat's a deep dive.
That's it.
Yeah, so, okay.
So let's break it down.
So we've got some physicalexamples of how to build
anti-fragile kids right.
Here's a real simple one.
Let them climb trees.
Liz (30:35):
Ooh, I have a funny story about that real quick.
Ben (30:38):
Okay, let's hear it.
Liz (30:38):
So do you remember when we went to Williamsburg, virginia,
last year?
And yeah, okay, our kids can besometimes like the Von Trapp
family, not just because there'sa bajillion of them, but I mean
, they're up in trees, like.
They're just like, oh, there'sa climbing tree and the shoes
come off and they're up the tree, like it's just how it is.
So we were in Williamsburg withyour parents and having a
wonderful family vacation, whichwe're enjoying.
(31:00):
We're at the ColonialWilliamsburg, so it's like
really cool, you should go visitif you've never been.
Great American history.
Anyway, we're waiting for thetrolley and there's a great
climbing tree and what do ourkids do?
They take their shoes off andthey're up, high up in the tree.
Now, I'm used to our kidsclimbing, you're used to our
kids climbing.
The grandparents are prettymuch used to it, but all the
(31:23):
other grandparents because wewere the only ones with kids
this day, none of them are usedto the kids climbing, and so
there were people freaking outaround us and so I had to go
over.
Ben (31:31):
Yeah, because they were pretty high.
Yeah, a little too high forcomfort.
Liz (31:36):
Some of them yeah, Some of them were Not all of them, but
I'm like, hey guys, I need youto come down from the tree.
And then when they came down,they're like mom, we were fine,
why don't we have to get down?
I'm like everybody else didn'tthink so.
They're about to call the firedepartment.
Ben (31:46):
We need to teach those grandparents about anti-firing.
Oh yeah, good luck, so withinreason, right, but like, let
them experience a little bit ofdangerous play.
I think that's kind of theconcept.
Like kind of the concept Like,don't be so quick to keep them
from every danger, allow them toexperience reasonable danger.
Liz (32:07):
Right yeah, as long as they're not like in serious
harm's way.
Exactly Well, and there's alsoall this development stuff
that's out there about when kidschildren are, you know,
balancing, or they're up highand they feel the sway, or you
know I'm just talking about thisbecause of a tree, but there's
so much that happens where theyexperience the limit of their
bodies and that's part of theirdevelopment.
Ben (32:30):
And so, if we?
Liz (32:31):
keep right.
It's how they learn and we keepkeeping them from that
experience because we're soafraid they're going to fall off
two feet.
How are they learning?
I'm just saying how are theylearning?
Okay, moving on.
Ben (32:42):
So another one is allow them some rough play right With
one another, Some rough housing.
Liz (32:49):
Okay.
Ben (32:50):
And on top of that here's one that can kind of go along
with it.
Liz (32:53):
Well, I'm just hold on.
Of course you put rough play inthere.
I mean, you are the dad, you'rethe dad, dad, you're the dad.
What?
Yes, and your mom and I wouldagree, and my mom would agree
that sometimes it's a littlelike, especially with boys, but
you know what?
They're having so much fun andthey're just tumbling.
It makes me think of SwissFamily Robinson when they're
roughhousing.
Ben (33:14):
Yeah, let's get back to some of that, right?
I mean it's okay to roughhouse,I know, you know it can get out
of hand it can but that's thepoint, right.
Let it get out of hand a littlebit.
Let them experience thelimitations of getting into the
rough part of roughhousing sothat they can find limits.
And when you find the limits,that's where growth happens.
Liz (33:37):
Right, I agree.
Ben (33:39):
That's where you learn the next time.
Hey, that kind of hurt when wewent that far.
Liz (33:44):
Yep.
Ben (33:44):
And so I guess that's the point right.
It's like we try to keep ourkids in comfort, away from
danger, so much so thatsometimes we just don't know our
limits Right, and that'sactually not a good thing.
No, it can be a bad thing.
Liz (33:58):
What about when you used to wrestle with your brother?
Yeah, oh man, let's bring thatup.
Ben (34:05):
Yeah Well, my brother.
He was actually a lot strongerthan me as related to how old I
was right.
So when he was in 10th grade,when I was in 10th grade, he was
just so much stronger.
I was two and a half yearsolder, so I think he was a
sophomore.
I was a senior and I went towrestle with him in high school.
Liz (34:29):
He was on the wrestling team oh, I didn't even realize
he was working out.
He was on the wrestling teamyeah, like you wore one of those
singlets and everything I don'tknow about all that, I never I
never.
Ben (34:38):
I don't think I ever saw him.
Liz (34:38):
Benjamin.
Ben (34:40):
That's pretty bad on me.
Liz (34:43):
Okay, keep going, Sorry brother.
Ben (34:45):
But I remember the day that I tried to take him down
wrestling Uh-huh and he wasbigger than me.
He was actually bigger than mein 10th grade, I think.
Yeah, he'd surpassed my weightand he was just physically
bigger and stronger.
Liz (35:00):
He was bulking up.
Ben (35:01):
He was bulking up and I could still take him for a
little while when he had, whenhe caught me size wise.
But I remember the day where Itried to take him down wrestling
and all of a sudden the tablesturned and I could no longer
take him down and said he was ontop and he was like pindya it
was like oh shoot just like Nalain.
Lion King Pindja.
Liz (35:23):
Pindja, pindja.
Yeah, I forgot where I wasgoing with all that, but anyways
, well, anyway, roughhousing.
Ben (35:28):
Roughhousing, yeah, and to go along with that.
I guess the thing aboutphysical play right is we don't
have to rescue them from everyminor injury, right?
We want to be sensible.
We want to make sure they'resafe from doing something
(35:48):
catastrophic, but at the sametime, we actually need them to
figure out their own limitations.
We need them to bump up againstsome of their limitations,
experience the pain of maybemaking mistakes because of those
limitations, and to learnthrough that process.
Liz (35:57):
Yep, it's a learning process.
It is, it is.
Ben (36:00):
And I mean, yeah, that's how we get better.
What about emotionalanti-fragility?
Liz (36:07):
Well, I just watched an episode on when Calls the Heart.
Ben (36:10):
Oh, it's your favorite show .
Liz (36:13):
It was about this.
The girls and I like watchingit.
We make a cup of tea and turnit on.
Ben (36:18):
Surprisingly, the boys don't always watch it.
Liz (36:21):
Actually they've enjoyed it A few.
Ben (36:23):
Yeah, a few of the boys have.
Liz (36:25):
They come in, they trickle in, but anyway.
So on this particular episode,one of the characters was
falling in love with this oneboy and it was obvious that he
was not into her, like she wasinto him.
And so the teacher tried tohave a conversation with her to
kind of like navigate and helpher navigate her heart.
(36:45):
And she wasn't going to listento it.
And so eventually the girl wentto the boy and like, asked him
to go up on a picnic and heturned her down and her heart
was broken.
And so in the whole episode,what was playing out as I was
watching with the girls whichwas really great because it
brought up some conversationtopics between the girls and I,
which I wasn't ready to have,all those conversations, but
(37:06):
since it was presented but no,in all seriousness, like she
wanted to prevent this younglady from having her heart
broken because she knew that theboy wasn't into her but she had
to learn it on her own.
She had to learn the hard wayshe had to learn the hard way,
so pretty good episode.
Ben (37:23):
Yeah, and you don't, I mean you don't want your kids
necessarily like just to goheadlong into some of those
experiences, but again it's thatsometimes we learn the best
through pain.
Liz (37:34):
Yep, I know I'm like that.
I mean I want wisdom and I wantyou know, but sometimes it's
like how do you get the wisdom,though?
Right From myself, but I'msaying like I want people to
speak into the situation andgive me wisdom.
I mean, maybe that's part of mematuring and growing older, but
you know, sometimes there'ssome things where people that
I've I've heard them say andit's like yeah, yeah, yeah, and
(37:54):
then when I'm faced with it, Istill think my own way and then
pursue it and discover gosh,they were right, Humble pie.
Ben (38:03):
Humble pie, humble pie, yeah, so okay.
So that's pretty interesting,so experiencing disappointments.
One other thing too, as parents, we can do is don't always be
quick to intervene in socialconflicts.
So if there is a conflictsocially between kids, you mean
within the family or withinother kids.
(38:25):
It could be both.
It could be both contexts,right?
So if there's somethinghappening, maybe give your kid
the benefit of the doubt, aslong as you're saying that it's
not heading in a harmfuldirection.
Liz (38:35):
So you're going to preference that.
Ben (38:36):
But maybe you start asking some leading questions.
Maybe just don't intervene soquickly.
But as they mature, as theystart to grow, maybe you're less
and less kind of hands-on,maybe you take your hands off
and you kind of see how theywork it out.
Liz (38:50):
Well, we've done that in our parenting because there's
arguing, that goes on.
I mean, when you have ahousehold with people, there's
going to be moments, and that'sokay.
Conflict is good.
It's how you handle theconflict.
And so I think there's timeswhere you and I have stepped in,
but then there's times where,like, just let it be, or that
(39:11):
famous line, y'all figure it out, or I'm going to figure it out
for you and you better believethey figure it out right.
They don't always like it whenwe figure it out nope, and so
they better quickly resolvetheir conflict and figure it out
now.
There has been times where wehave had to bring the party into
our room and yep, you knowguide them yeah and have a
conversation and you know,because they just can't get over
(39:34):
the hump, for whatever it is,especially as they've been
developing as teenagers with allthe hormones and the
sensitivities and all theemotions, all the things, all
the things.
Ben (39:45):
That's okay.
So yeah, emotions right.
Liz (39:47):
Right.
Ben (39:48):
Like teaching them how to process those emotions too.
I think that's important Notjust avoid negative emotions,
but when you have them, what doyou do with them?
Liz (39:56):
Right, exactly.
Ben (39:58):
How do you let those emotions help guide you to a
better, mature place, right?
So, instead of running fromthem?
You know why, don't?
Yeah, I guess, like, how can wehelp our kids understand what
they are, why they're havingthose emotions?
And then what you can do tokind of let those emotions guide
(40:20):
you back to a place of maturity, not stay in those emotions.
Liz (40:23):
True, but I also just want to say, sometimes with teenage
young ladies, okay, I'm out ofmy element Way over there.
Sometimes I just need a goodcry.
Yeah, I mean, that happened,what just a week ago?
And we had a daughter who wasjust.
She just needed a good cry andI saw myself in her, because
there's sometimes I just need agood cry.
(40:45):
I don't even know why I'memotional.
Ben (40:47):
I'm just emotional.
I need a good cry every now andthen.
No you're solid as a rock.
What are you talking about?
I'm a softie.
Liz (40:54):
You actually are a softie, I did.
But even in the midst of that,like saying hey, you know, she
was just crying and I said youknow what's going on?
Why are you crying?
She's like I don't know, I'mjust emotional, and I thought,
well, I know why you'reemotional.
The writing's on the wall.
If you have teenage daughters,you understand.
But anyway, and then she justcried, I just held her and then
(41:21):
we started teaching moment forboth of us to actually look at
what's going on here.
Why am I feeling this way?
So, yeah, that's good, that'sgood.
Ben (41:30):
Okay, maybe the last topic here.
Liz (41:33):
What is?
Ben (41:33):
it In our anti-fragility for kids spiritual
anti-fragility.
Good.
So one of the things that welike to do with our kids is ask
(42:06):
them hard questions.
Yep, we like to kind of put,put it out there, like so some
of the more intense topicswithin faith.
We like to talk about them, welike to discuss them.
You know, whether it be, Idon't know, matters of racism or
diversity, once saved, alwayssaved, giftings with different
denominations believe aboutdifferent things.
We try to bring it up, we tryto have healthy discussions and
we try to set the stage whereit's like no question is a dumb
question, and even the questionof faith in particular, right,
like some doubts, like let's notrun away from it, let's expose
(42:27):
it in our family setting andtackle it together, and so I
think that is a good way to helpbring some anti-fragility into
your kid's spiritual development.
Liz (42:41):
Well, and so they're not shocked.
Yes, Either Right.
I mean we need to be havingthese conversations we would
rather have them be shocked atour home.
Yes.
Ben (42:47):
Than out of the world.
Well, and, and I'm thinking, ofsex ed and family devotions
right, oh Lord, of course hebrought that up, that was last
episode.
Liz (42:55):
Wow, if you want to hear a shocker.
Ben (42:57):
Go to the last episode.
Liz (42:59):
And I just listened to that episode and I was.
Ben (43:01):
You were shocked, weren't you?
Liz (43:02):
I was shocked again.
I was really really.
Ben (43:07):
But I guess the point is is like we want them, at the end
of the day, to develop their ownfaith and so we can start
asking some of those wrestlingquestions in our own home where
we can help bring some guidance,and so we want them to struggle
.
I know that sounds weird.
We want them to struggle withthe concept of faith while
(43:28):
they're at home.
And so we want them to just, Iguess, wrestle with some of
those questions and have thosediscussions with us, with their
siblings, with other friends,and we try to foster some of
that.
So another thing is that we tryto bring that concept of trials
(43:50):
as growth.
So back to our scripturereferences that we spoke about
earlier, let's reframe whenwe're, when the kids are going
through tough times and they'regoing through something hard.
Let's just not focus on thehardship.
Let's focus about what'shappening while they're going
through the hardship.
Liz (44:09):
Now, what do you mean?
What's happening?
Ben (44:10):
What's being developed in them?
Liz (44:12):
Oh, you mean a character.
What's the?
Ben (44:13):
opportunity for a character change in the midst of the
hardship.
Liz (44:19):
Well, I'm just thinking.
I mean, can I share an example?
Ben (44:21):
I'm just thinking.
Liz (44:21):
Recently there was a situation that was happening
among the girlfriends of one ofour daughters and it was, you
know, pretty.
One of the friends wasn't beingnice to our daughter and
there's just like thisconsistency over a week or two
and it was hurting our daughterand I just said, hey, let's take
a second and let's putourselves in her shoes and think
(44:44):
about what she's going through,and it just helped to give
empathy.
But that was what was beingbuilt in our daughter
understanding and I saidhonestly, let's just pray for
her and wouldn't you know it?
Within a day everything wasback to normal, you know.
Um right and so, but I saw acharacter, character being
developed, developed in ourdaughter.
(45:04):
Yeah, yeah.
Ben (45:05):
Yeah, going through something a little difficult,
and one of the things, too, thatI think we've done even
recently is just invited theminto some of our own struggles.
Liz (45:14):
Absolutely Right.
Ben (45:15):
We're like, we're not perfect, we're not going to try
to put on airs.
Nope, and instead of likebeating around the bush or
trying to hide something thatmommy or daddy is going through,
like why not just talk about itNow?
Obviously you got to be, youknow, sensical and use age
appropriateness.
Liz (45:30):
Right, absolutely.
Ben (45:31):
But if it's something that you can share with the family
and talk about openly your ownstruggles, maybe you have your
own doubts, right.
Liz (45:40):
Right.
Ben (45:41):
And just bring that before the family, not obviously trying
to instill doubt in them, buttalk about how you dance around
your own doubts or how youovercome your own doubts and
what you do, and I think that'simportant because it allows them
to see you as authentic.
Liz (45:56):
Well, yeah, true and relatable and relatable, that's
what it is.
Yeah, and we, you know, we, Ihope we're building that within
our kids.
We work hard on that.
Ben (46:06):
Yeah, we really do.
Yeah, we do Try to be as openand transparent as possible.
So, yeah, I think those aresome three key areas where
trying to develop anti-fragilityin your children is important
and practical and Build grit.
(46:26):
Yeah, build some grit.
That's a good analogy.
Build some grit.
There's a book by angeladuckworth oh, yeah, grit, yes,
yes and another uh book, as itrelates to spiritual
anti-fragility, is calledraising passionate jesus
followers, and that's by philand diane comer, and, uh, that's
(46:48):
another good one.
So what are what are some, Iguess, takeaway verses that
we've got for today?
Liz (46:54):
all right, I I'm excited about these verses.
The first one is second Timothyuh for verse uh.
Chapter one, verse seven.
It says for God.
This is one of my most favoriteverses.
It's for God has not given us aspirit of fear, but a power,
love and a sound mind.
Sound mind.
Ben (47:09):
I like that, and Proverbs 24, 10 says if you falter in a
time of trouble, how small isyour strength?
So that kind of goes back tothat anti-fragility concept.
Right, we want strength thatsupersedes our own times of
trouble.
Yes, and the only way I feel tobuild that strength is to go
(47:29):
through some trouble, somesmaller troubles hopefully, so
that in the day of trouble youcan stand.
So we need a little resistance.
Liz (47:37):
We need a little wind.
We do.
We need some fungus.
Ben (47:42):
Some bacteria, some germs.
I need some fungi in my life.
I need to rip up my muscles.
Liz (47:47):
Rip them on up.
Ben (47:48):
Yeah, get strong.
We need to be like Buffalo andturn right into the storm and go
for no, that's right.
Liz (47:55):
And not be noodles.
Ben (47:56):
Man, I think you just threw all of the analogies in the one
sentence.
Liz (47:59):
Take every bit of bubble wrap and pop it with Nerf guns.
Ben (48:03):
Oh yeah, Nerf gun war with bubble wrap and then put needles
on the end of the darts.
No, no, no.
Liz (48:09):
No, don't do that.
But we do have Nerf gun wars inour house and they are epic and
they are intense and Nerf gunwars in our house and they are
epic and they are intense andthere's a lot of pickup that
comes afterwards.
Ben (48:16):
Oh, lots.
Liz (48:17):
I mean we have like a whole huge Trader Joe's bag of
nothing but the Nerf gun bullets.
Oh yeah, Like a whole huge binof them and the kids just go to
town.
We also have paintball guns.
How many paintball guns do wehave, Ben?
You put me on the spot.
(48:37):
Um, a better question would behow?
Ben (48:38):
many paintball guns do we have?
Liz (48:39):
that work.
I have no idea how many.
Probably like two.
Two out of how many guns?
Ben (48:43):
Two out of probably, like I don't know, like 20.
Liz (48:45):
We, I, that's okay.
Ben (48:47):
Yeah, I get a little.
Liz (48:48):
You think so?
Ben (48:49):
Collecting.
Liz (48:50):
Well, but the thing is is that we had a 10 yearyear-old's
birthday who wanted to have apaintball gun war.
Ben (48:55):
We did, and I found a good deal, and you did find a good
deal and you're resourceful, andthen you became Epic Dad, and
then we invited all the dadswith their sons and it was very
epic.
Liz (49:07):
But it was hilarious because who do you think, do you
remember?
Who do you think was more intoit?
The boys or their dads?
You think was more into it theboys or their dads?
You mean the boys or the boys?
Yeah, you guys, it washilarious because these dads
were running around like incamouflage you would have
thought it was a full-on war.
Ben (49:25):
May or may not have had a ghillie suit yes, I don't even
know what that is I look like abush yeah, he.
Liz (49:30):
Oh, yes, you do have that.
Were wearing that, but itwasn't padded.
Ben (49:36):
No, no, I took it like a real man One person came in a
total snowsuit.
Yeah, they came in a snowsuit.
They didn't want to get hurt.
Liz (49:43):
Yeah, they didn't.
But what was so funny is afterthat resistant war of building
endurance and being like abuffalo and our whole backyard
with all these bases and youguys were playing catch up with
the flag and everybody hadradios with earpieces and all
that it got a little intense.
It got very intense, verycompetitive and all the wives,
(50:03):
we were inside the house withall the other children running
from one side of the house tothe other side of the house, to
the other side to watch all thiswar going on around our house.
But the dads were really soreand I remember they were having
to take Epsom salt baths, somehad to go get massages, some
went to the chiropractor.
Yeah yeah, they're not littleanymore, are they?
Ben (50:26):
Nope, nope, nope.
Liz (50:28):
But I do remember that that was funny.
Ben (50:30):
It was a good time.
I know Low resistance training.
Liz (50:32):
So we're not going to take bubble wrap and shoot paintballs
.
Ben (50:35):
No, we're just going to take it.
Liz (50:37):
We're just going to take it .
We're just going to take it.
Well, you guys, thank you somuch for being a part of our One
Blessed Mess today, and I wantto say thank you so much for all
of your messages, your emails,your DMs.
We do have a website.
It iswwwour1numeric1blessedmesscom.
Of course, you can go there.
(50:57):
There's like a contact area,you can reach out to us, and so
we've gotten some, you know,some comments and questions from
you guys, and we love it.
You know, we are so thankfuland so grateful.
We're doing this honestlybecause we?
Ben (51:12):
why are we doing this Ben Like?
Why are we?
Liz (51:12):
doing this podcast?
Why are we doing this, Ben?
Ben (51:13):
Like, why are we doing this podcast?
We're doing this because wethought, man, what would our
younger selves love to haveknown, you know, from a couple
like us.
And so if we could go back intime and say, hey, here's what
you need to know when you'rejust starting out with
parenthood, or just starting outwith kids, or even marriage, or
maybe even business like,here's some things that you
should know, and so we justwanted to serve the larger body
(51:36):
of Christ and just be a resource, and not that we have all the
answers.
We don't.
Liz (51:40):
We're still learning things .
No, we're not expertswhatsoever.
Ben (51:42):
Yeah we're definitely not experts.
Liz (51:55):
But we've had a few life experiences and we just figured,
hey, we might as well share.
Well, and also, too, I mean Ihope even today's subject just
kind of gets people chewing onsome things, because I mean,
this, this whole thing came outof you and I having a coffee
date and talking about asituation, and then next thing,
I know it's like, okay, we'regoing to do an episode on this
and so, um, you know, we reallywe really hope that it blesses
you and we love hearing from you, we love seeing your comments.
Um, please like this episode.
If you could just hit the likebutton or the heart or the star
(52:18):
or whatever it is, by theplatform that you're listening
to this on or watching, ifyou're on YouTube and then also
to share, please pass this on toanybody that you think it would
be valuable to them, because Iknow it has definitely been
valuable for us.
And follow us on Instagram.
We do have a Facebook page ourone blessed mess.
Follow us there.
Like us there.
(52:38):
While there's a lot offollowing and liking, Sounds
kind of funny and subscribe.
Oh yeah, and subscribe likeshare, follow and subscribe.
But we are so thankful that youwere here with us today and
we're so excited because wecan't wait to see you and until
next time.
And so what we love to say isum, embrace your beautiful mess,
because if our mess is blessed,then we know, so can yours.
(53:01):
That's right.
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