March 21, 2025 • 45 mins
Ever caught yourself thinking, "At least I'm not like THAT person"? This episode dives into the uncomfortable truth about our natural tendency toward self-righteousness and why it might be the biggest obstacle in our spiritual journey.
Ben and Liz unpack Jesus' parable of the Pharisee and tax collector from Luke 18, revealing how easily we all slip into comparison-based spirituality. We're startled by research showing 93% of drivers rate themselves "above average" (statistically impossible), and how we consistently use irrational reasoning to justify our own morality while harshly judging others.
The surprising good news? Acknowledging that "none of us are good" is actually liberating. When we stop trying to justify ourselves and embrace our need for mercy, we find freedom from the exhausting cycle of moral superiority. This humble posture not only transforms our relationship with God but allows us to extend genuine grace to others.
Mentioned in this Episode:
- The Truth About Us (affiliate link)
- Study: Are we all less risky and more skillful than our fellow drivers?
- Study: The Illusion of Moral Superiority
- Study: Feeling "holier than thou": Are self-serving assessments produced by errors in self- or social prediction?
Your Listening to our 1 blessed mess, with ben and liz
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Liz (00:06):
Welcome to our One Blessed Mess.
This is Ben and Liz, and we'rehere telling our story of how we
raised six kids that we had ineight years, managing a
entrepreneurial home with twobusinesses, homeschooling, and
currently we are raising fourteenagers plus seven chickens
and two dogs to keep itinteresting.
But you know what?
You guys are adding some goats.
(00:26):
We're about to add some goats.
So we've got all the blessedmess going on in our home.
It is happening and we've gotan exciting topic to talk about
today and I just want to saygetting this podcast going has
been fun, but getting thisepisode going today has been
real fun.
We've had all kinds of things.
We walked into the studio andour sign fell down.
Ben (00:49):
It broke down.
It broke down.
Not only did it fall down, itjust broke in two pieces and we
had to hot glue that sucker backtogether.
Liz (00:56):
It's a prayer and a miracle that that's staying up there.
And then also the lamp fellbecause we were fixing that and
the lamp fell over and the lightbulb broke.
Ben (01:05):
And we've already tried to do this episode once or twice to
begin with.
So it's just like one thingafter another.
So we feel like maybe it's animportant topic.
I don't know.
Liz (01:13):
It must be important.
Ben looked at me, goes what isup with our topic?
I said I don't know, but weshould pray.
So we've prayed, we're prayedwe've prayed.
Ben (01:26):
We're prepared.
We prayed up.
Yeah, we are prayed up but uh,yeah, it's a it is a kind of an
intense topic, it is.
You know, we like to keepthings, you know, fun, um, but
this one, this one's hard totalk about because it involves
ourselves and it involves ourown self-righteousness, but I
think at the end there's reallya positive light I agree, you
know, but we're gonna keep itfun today too still like we have
some stories and some thingsthat are.
Liz (01:45):
Agree, but we're going to keep it fun today.
Still, we have some stories andsome things that are applicable
to what we're talking about,because when Ben and I were
talking about this subject, Isaid honey, this is intense.
Anytime we're talking aboutourself is intense,
self-righteousness, all right.
So what exactly are we talkingabout?
Ben (02:00):
Well, we're going to talk about our self-righteousness,
but in the context of Luke 18,10 through 14.
Yep, and so I'll just read itreal quick and maybe I'll even
summarize it.
So Jesus is talking to a groupof people that consider
themselves righteous, and hegives them an example.
He says two men went up to thetemple to pray, one a Pharisee,
(02:20):
one a tax collector.
The Pharisee, standing byhimself, prayed thus God, I
thank you that I am not likeother men, extortioners, unjust
adulterers, or even like thistax collector.
I fast twice a week, I givetithes of all that I get, but
the tax collector, standing faroff, he wouldn't even lift up
his eyes to heaven, but insteadhe beat his breast, breast
(02:43):
saying God, be merciful to me, asinner, I tell you.
This man went down to his housejustified.
This is Jesus speaking, ratherthan the other, For everyone who
exalts himself will be humbled,and the one who humbles himself
will be exalted.
And I think that's the key islike how do we see ourselves
right?
Do we see ourselves in need ofmercy?
Do we see ourselves in thathumble position of knowing our
(03:06):
own limits, knowing our owndepravity?
Liz (03:10):
Or do we see?
Ben (03:11):
ourselves like the Pharisee who says well, at least I'm not
like the other guy.
Liz (03:17):
Well, that actually makes me think of a story.
That guy, that guy.
So we love Brant Hanson, sowe'll probably be talking about
him in this episode.
But I remember when we needed anew dishwasher and this is when
we moved into this house, whichwe love, our home, and I think
it was the original dishwasherbecause it was a piece of work,
(03:38):
and when you have a family aslarge as mine, as large as ours,
we have to run a dishwasherlike often, yeah, often, and so,
anyway, the dishwasher wasn'treally cleaning the plates too
well, and so, and then we alsohad an issue with our garbage
disposal, and so the handymanthat I married, aka Ben, he's
(03:59):
like oh, I can fix that garbagedisposal, no big deal.
So he does, he fixes thegarbage disposal and it's
working.
Ben (04:08):
All of a sudden, we think it's working.
Liz (04:09):
We think it's working, All of a sudden the dishwasher
completely stops.
So we went from one massiveLike it wouldn't even run.
No, it wouldn't even run.
I was like holy moly.
So I'm secretly praising Godbecause I hate our dishwasher.
I've had it.
I'm like it needs to go todishwasher heaven or hell,
whichever, and anyway it justneeds to be out of my house.
Ben (04:29):
Was that dishwasher a Pharisee or a tax collector?
It was definitely a Pharisee.
It was a Pharisee.
Liz (04:33):
Okay, so we go to, I think, best Buy, and I am loving
finding a new dishwasher.
We got a top rack that comes out, so there's like three racks
and all these features, and I'mlike, let's go, let's go.
Okay, so we get a newdishwasher.
It takes a while for them tocome and bring it in.
Well, they bring in the new one.
They do like one little simpletest of like running the water
(04:55):
through it and they leave.
Well, I go to run a load and itwill not work at all, will not
work.
It stops working, just like theother one did.
Yeah, and I'm like holy moly.
So I call they, send this otherguy that came out.
He was like this handy, dandyman who has been apparently
(05:15):
doing dishwashers and appliancesfor a really long time, because
he was like there's no way.
Oh, and he was the one whoinstalled it.
He's like, I know it works,it's brand new.
And I'm like, well, it's notworking.
And he tried it, it wouldn'twork.
So he gets down in there andhe's figuring it all out and
then he goes.
So is that a new garbagedisposal?
And I said, yes, he goes.
Well, the idiot that put it inthere installed it incorrectly
(05:39):
and didn't flip the one switchor whatever it is.
I don't know.
Ben (05:42):
It was a little cap that needed to come off, yeah.
Liz (05:44):
Well, it's a flux capacitor .
Ben (05:46):
I'm sure.
Liz (05:47):
So anyway, he didn't take care of it.
And he's like and I don't knowwho that guy is, but he is an
idiot, Don't ever hire him again.
And I'm like yes, sir.
Yeah, absolutely so.
Anyway, he takes the cap, hedoes the thing I don't know, and
the dishwasher has been workingever since.
But what was funny is this guywas just like automatically like
(06:09):
this.
Ben (06:10):
Person is an idiot.
Liz (06:11):
Assume the worst and I'm like dude, did you ever make a
mistake?
Ben (06:17):
Have you ever made a mistake?
Yeah, yeah, I have, but I wastoo maybe self-righteous to
admit it was me.
That was the idiot thatinstalled it incorrectly.
Liz (06:27):
It was you, and I came and found you because you were in a
meeting with work and I was like, hey, so did you know about
this thing that you have to do?
And that's why it wasn'tworking.
And so we had gone for a coupleof weeks without a dishwasher
and then Ben turns to me and hesays, oh, we didn't need to get
a new dishwasher.
Ben (06:42):
I was like, nope, the Lord heard my prayer says, oh, we
didn't need to get a newdishwasher.
I was like, nope, the Lordheard my prayer.
Liz (06:46):
I think it was wise that you didn't fix it correctly.
So anyway, that's our storySome self-righteousness on both
parts.
Ben (06:54):
Both parts, oh yeah, yeah, for sure, and I think a lot of
people would say they identifywith the tax collector right,
they identify as the centercenter.
Liz (07:04):
But we did a little research into some studies and
unfortunately that's not thecase most people inflate their
own sense of righteousness yes,and this is a little intense, as
ben is going to go through thisbecause when he was finding
this research and he's readingit to me, I was like, oh gosh,
so try to go through it quickly,because it's so painful.
All right, I'm gonna go through.
Yeah it because it's so painful.
All right, I'm going to gothrough yeah.
Ben (07:24):
Quickly, it is painful.
So we have three studies here.
One of them is back in 1981.
So it's a little older, butthey did a survey regarding how
well you rate yourself as adriver.
Liz (07:37):
And I asked him.
I said who do they interview?
Okay, keep going, Just stop,Just go.
Ben (07:48):
Basically the short of it.
We won't go into the details,but the short of it is that 93%
of drivers rate themselves aboveaverage.
So statistically that'simpossible to be correct.
I mean, there's a very rarechance that that could be
correct if the worst people arereally really, really bad.
But yeah, we over inflate ourconcept of being able to drive.
Liz (08:08):
I think I'm a good driver.
Ben (08:10):
Well.
Liz (08:11):
I'm in the above average.
Ben (08:12):
Are you in the 93% above average?
Liz (08:14):
93%.
Just don't ask our kidsEspecially the ones that are
learning to drive right now.
Oh, my lord Anyway.
Ben (08:21):
So that's kind of funny, right, right, right, yeah.
So this and that one is by Olaand Svensson, and the second one
is revolved around this conceptof self-enhancement Right?
This one's really interesting.
I tried, and I tried to figureout exactly how they rated this
concept of irrational versusrational judgment when it comes
(08:45):
to our own morality.
Okay, but it's very difficultto understand all the metrics.
However, the takeaway is that90% of participants in this
study used irrational behaviorand how they justified their own
morality versus the morality ofothers.
Liz (09:02):
Yes.
Ben (09:02):
So the takeaway is that when we consider ourselves and
we judge ourselves, we're veryirrational in how we rate
ourselves morally, right To thepoint where 90% of us do it
right Like that's crazy.
So this is a 2017 study, sodefinitely newer.
Tappan and McKay SocialPsychology and Personality Go
(09:23):
look that up.
Go get into the details of that.
If you want to nerd out, golook it up.
Liz (09:30):
If not just listen to us.
Ben (09:32):
You're fine.
The short of it is we're veryirrational when it comes to
judging our own morality.
Liz (09:36):
No, not on social media, wow.
Ben (09:43):
No, Okay.
And then this last one here.
This was a 2000 study, Epleyand Dunning.
They studied how likely we wereto do good and then we would
rate ourselves or estimateourselves how likely we would do
good in the future, andbasically we have a doubling
effect.
So we almost double the amountin our minds that we would do
(10:07):
good versus what we actually do.
So all three of these studiesjust kind of show that we have
this propensity to inflate oursense of self when it comes to
our own capabilities, our ownmorality, and there's tons of
other studies out there.
These are just three that Icherry picked, but there's a
bunch of them out there that allreinforce the same concept of
like this self-enhancementeffect.
And there's tons of otherstudies out there these are just
three that I cherry picked, butthere's a bunch of them out
there that all reinforce thesame concept of like this
(10:28):
self-enhancement effect.
Liz (10:30):
Right.
Ben (10:30):
Where we give ourselves the benefit of the doubt or even
the benefit beyond doubt, andthen, when it comes to others,
we're very critical.
Liz (10:39):
Oh, keep moving on, just keep going so let's just do a
thought experiment real quick.
Okay, okay.
So I have to think, you have tothink.
Let me take another sip ofcoffee.
Ben (10:50):
And maybe you could even close your eyes so you're not
distracted.
But just ask yourself thisquestion Are you a good person?
So what comes to mind, right,do I?
Liz (11:01):
have to answer, I mean, okay, keep going, we'll just let
our audience do that right,okay.
Ben (11:08):
And I've done it several times and I always think, well,
okay, I'm pretty good because Idon't do this and I don't do
that, and it's almost natural tokind of like do the checklist
comparison.
Liz (11:20):
Like I'm not lying, I'm not stealing, yeah, yeah.
Like I'm not lying, I'm notstealing, yeah yeah.
Ben (11:24):
Or like, well, I'm not like the prisoners, or I'm not like
these people, or it's justnatural to do that mental
checklist, and especially whenit comes to the concept of our
own morality, our own goodness,or our own worth, and so this is
kind of intense, because theBible and especially I believe
Jesus is teaching basicallytells us that we aren't good.
Liz (11:46):
Right.
Ben (11:48):
And when we get in touch with that sense of knowing that
we're not good deep down inside,I think it frees us up, right,
it frees us up to be humble,primarily, and then we don't
have to play this judgment gamewhere it's like, well, at least
we're not like that guy who doesthis thing.
Liz (12:05):
You mean the person who fixed the garbage disposal.
Ben (12:09):
At least I'm not like that idiot who didn't install it
right.
Liz (12:11):
Said you were an idiot too, which is funny.
Okay, keep going.
Ben (12:15):
So this is what's kind of important about this whole thing
is how Jesus frames it, right.
So let's just do a few littlescripture references about what
Jesus thinks about our inherentgoodness or this concept of
being good, right?
So Mark 10, 17,.
As he was setting out on ajourney, a man ran up and knelt
before him and asked him goodteacher, what must I do to
(12:37):
inherit eternal life?
Jesus says to him why do youcall me good?
No one is good except God alone.
Yep, that's a really confusingverse because here you have
Jesus basically saying don'tcall me good.
Or why are you calling me good?
Right, and this could bemultifaceted.
It could be the fact that he's,you know, underlying kind of
the fact that he is God, but Ialso think it's a little deeper.
(12:59):
I think it's he's not wantingto equate humanity with good,
even the form of humanity thathe took on.
He's sinless, yes, right, butthere's only one good source,
and that's God, the father.
Liz (13:11):
God, the father, abba, God, papa God.
Ben (13:13):
And so it's just really interesting that he's stressing
that point.
And then again in Matthew 7, 11, we kind of see a similar thing
.
If you, then, who are evil,know how to give good gifts to
your children, how much moreyour father, who is in heaven,
give good things to those whoask him.
Liz (13:29):
Love that verse, one of my favorites, especially as a
parent.
Ben (13:35):
It's kind of intense that he kind of slips that in there,
you who are evil right and wekind of like gloss over that and
think about oh yeah, it's thegift giving thing.
Liz (13:45):
And no, you know, but it's not.
Ben (13:46):
There's this point that I believe God's trying to make
we're all evil.
Liz (13:50):
Yes.
Ben (13:51):
Sorry, jesus is trying to make.
We're all evil and I don'tthink we can just gloss over
that.
I think we have to embrace that, to know that, you know, we, we
have this thing, we have thisproblem, the condition of our
hearts.
Liz (14:05):
Yeah, the human condition, the human condition.
Ben (14:07):
It's the human condition and he understands that.
Yes, he understands that.
I think we need to rememberthat he understands that.
Liz (14:12):
Of course, we don't always understand that because we're
constantly comparing ourselvesto others.
Yes, so, yeah, well, I likewhat it says in Jeremiah 79, the
heart is deceitful, above allthings, and desperately sick.
Who can understand it?
I know my heart is.
Ben (14:28):
Yes, yeah and yeah again.
These Old Testament passagesare really key as well, because
I feel like they've already seta foundation.
Jesus is just building on topof that.
What about?
Even in Psalms?
Liz (14:41):
Oh, I love Psalms.
Okay, I'll read this one, psalm14, two through three.
The Lord looks down from heavenon the children of man to see
if there are any who understand,who seek after God.
They have all turned asidetogether and they have become
corrupt.
There is none who does a good,not even one, so just pressing.
Ben (15:01):
Not even one, I know.
But here's the good news aboutthat right, if we can come to
grips with the fact that we'renot good.
Liz (15:09):
I know.
Ben (15:10):
Where does it leave us?
Well, it leaves us in need ofsomething.
Liz (15:13):
Yeah, and it keeps us humble.
Ben (15:14):
Exactly, yeah, it needs us.
Well, it means that we need asavior.
Liz (15:19):
Right, I know I need a savior every day.
Ben (15:21):
Even when we come to faith, we have to continually keep
that posture of knowing we needJesus.
Yeah, it's not all said anddone.
We still have the propensity tosin, even as a believer.
Liz (15:33):
Right, right, and so every day, every day, yeah, and his
mercies are new.
Ben (15:37):
What?
Every morning?
Every morning, yeah, and so wehave to tap into that.
Yeah, and so we have to tapinto that.
So, like what are some commonsigns that we've let that
Pharisee mindset kind of takeroot in our thoughts or in our
life?
Maybe we can go through some ofthose practical things.
Liz (15:55):
Okay, like the comparison-based spirituality.
Ben (15:58):
Exactly.
Liz (15:59):
Okay, what does that mean, ben?
It's in our notes.
Ben (16:02):
Well, basically go back to what the Pharisee was doing.
Liz (16:06):
Remember he was saying at least, I'm not like these.
Yeah, I'm not like them, I fast, I give.
Ben (16:11):
Right, yep, at least I'm not like.
Liz (16:15):
I go to church every Sunday .
Ben (16:16):
If your prayer before the Lord, or if your posture before
the Lord starts with at least,I'm not like posture before the
Lord starts with.
Liz (16:24):
at least, I'm not like yeah , maybe you need to check
yourself.
Well, and I'm just thinking,you know, in today's time, I
mean back then they were goingto the temple on the Sabbath,
which was Saturday, friday intoSaturday.
But you know, here we are.
It's like, well, I go to church.
I tithe, you know, and we seesomebody else and we're like
they are far and really far fromwhat we would consider the
(16:46):
perfect Christian, when reallythey're the closest because
their hearts are so broken.
And we've witnessed that.
We've witnessed that.
Ben (16:55):
Yeah, it's like there's this scale, right, and it's not
based on your own self, likemorality or your sense of
self-morality.
It's actually based almost onthe opposite it's your ability
to recognize your own depravityexactly, and that leads us, and
it can lead us, to a place ofhumility.
I mean, that's where it has togo in order for it to to come to
(17:18):
this place that I believe jesusis wanting us to get to right
which is our need of him right?
if we can recognize our need ofhim, that's what ultimately
justifies him.
Liz (17:27):
Well, he's close to the brokenhearted.
Ben (17:29):
He is.
Liz (17:30):
That's what it says in his word, yeah, and so I just want
to encourage anybody who'slistening.
If you are brokenhearted, theLord is close to you.
Ben (17:37):
Oh man, I mean.
Liz (17:38):
I had one of the hardest years of my life last year.
Yes, one of the hardest yearsof my life.
Last year, yes, and he was soclose I could cry.
He was so close and sorelational, still so relational,
but he's a good father Rightand in my time of brokenness and
just all the things that Iwalked through and we've walked
through, he has been dear andnear and so, probably from the
(18:02):
outside, people would have beenthinking different, but only he
sees it Right.
And so you know, probably fromthe outside people would have
been thinking different, butonly he sees it.
Ben (18:06):
Right, yeah, and it's only when you're in that spot do you
really catch his ear like youwould right, exactly.
If we're thinking, oh, we'vegot it kind of put together, or
at least I'm not like that guy.
Liz (18:19):
Well listen, I am a hot mess and I will be the first one
to tell you.
I, that guy.
Well, listen, I am a hot messand I will be the first one to
tell you I might be a hottermess.
Yeah, you are pretty hot.
That's why we have six kids,not like that.
Ben (18:31):
No, hey, I got one in oh boy, come on, that was good Come
on, okay, keep going All right,all right Serious.
Liz (18:36):
Serious today Serious.
Ben (18:38):
That does dovetail into our next one, which is the concept
of virtue signaling right.
Oh yeah, Social media orotherwise, if we're putting our
things out there to be seen byother men or other women, just
like in the Beatitudes.
Liz (18:53):
That's our reward.
Ben (18:54):
Right, Right, that's the reward we get.
Liz (18:56):
No, I know, and it's so.
There is a fine line.
I feel as being an influencer.
It's so hard because, in a way,it's like you have a message
and you're to be a messenger,but all that can be filthy,
stank rags, right?
Yes, yeah, for real, yeah, forsure, for real, For sure.
Ben (19:16):
Yeah, or that could be your reward, right?
It's just that.
It's just the fact that youhave the platform.
If you're not doing it in theright motivation of heart, if
you're not humble, then you missout on the reward.
Liz (19:26):
Totally.
And what's the reward, Ben?
Ben (19:28):
The reward is God.
Yes, god's the reward.
Yes, yeah, he's what we hold onto.
So another one is selectiveBible application.
So another sign.
So we went through two alreadyComparison-based spirituality,
virtue signaling for the fact ofbeing seen.
And then this one is reallyintense Selected Bible
application.
(19:48):
Basically, what that means isbeing hard on others and easy on
yourself.
Liz (19:52):
No, that never happens in our family, never.
Ben (19:56):
Never, actually.
Liz (19:58):
Not with teenagers.
I got a little story.
Ben (20:00):
Oh yeah, this one happened recently actually.
Liz (20:02):
Okay.
Are you going to use any names?
No, I won't use any names.
Ben (20:05):
Okay, I'll try to protect the children.
But you know who you areBecause we're finding out that
our kids' friends are watchingthis podcast, our one less mess.
So one of our children.
Well, sorry, I guess it startswith me, so the story starts
with me.
So we were on a ride.
We recently went to a themepark.
I was on a ride.
My phone fell out of my pocket.
Oh yes, and I noticed it whenwe got off the ride.
(20:29):
It was probably about fiveminutes after we had left the
ride and I panicked and I waslike oh shoot, I don't know
where my phone is, I don't knowwhere my phone is Right.
You're like did, because whenyou were on this ride you pulled
it out, so you knew you had itand it was a slow ride, so it
wasn't like a roller coaster oranything, yeah, but I ran back
and I talked to the littleattendant and and this attendant
(20:50):
was little.
Yeah.
Liz (20:51):
Which is kind of funny.
Ben (20:52):
She was.
Yeah, she was shorter than youactually she was.
Liz (20:55):
I was like she's my people, that's right, I love her.
She's my person, might.
Ben (20:58):
She's my person Might be related, yes, so anyways, she
pointed me to the front andwithin about 10 minutes we were
able to find it.
Liz (21:05):
Yeah, it was easy.
Ben (21:05):
Big relief.
Liz (21:06):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think you had to show your ID and
prove it was you or something.
Ben (21:08):
Yeah, yeah, or unlock it or something like that, I can't
remember.
Anyways, we go off throughoutour day about an hour or one of
my kids comes up to me and saysI don't know where my phone is.
Liz (21:22):
Uh-huh, and that was stressful.
Ben (21:24):
And that threw us into a tizzy.
Liz (21:26):
I was self-righteous.
Ben (21:28):
Well, hey, don't steal my story.
I was self-righteous, Okay keepgoing.
Liz (21:32):
We were both self-righteous .
I was hot in the wrong way.
Ben (21:35):
I was mad because we had just been stressed out about my
phone.
Liz (21:38):
Right.
Ben (21:43):
And I'm thinking to myself oh my gosh, and this particular
child happens to have a historyof losing things, as do I, but
anyways, we were talking aboutme.
Liz (21:48):
Let's pause on that for a second, because I know your
mom's going to watch this andshe will understand.
I have come to her, I'm likehelp, help.
And she's like well, at thisage it just clicked and we've
hit that age and it hasn'tclicked totally yet.
Ben (22:05):
So, anyway, keep going so, anyways, I just felt my blood
boiling and you know, I wasgetting angry, I was getting
upset yeah and you know westarted trying to ask questions
about where this person was whenthey last saw it remember.
Liz (22:20):
Yeah, you realize they couldn't remember.
Yeah, when did you realize youdon't have it?
Ben (22:23):
so we didn't even know where to go back to.
Like we were trying to figureout where to go back to when you
started guessing of the lastcouple places we had been and
all of a sudden I just was likeangry and judgmental and I was
like man, how, how is thispossible?
How could this person?
Lord was like, does this seemfamiliar?
Liz (22:40):
to you?
Didn't you just do this like anhour ago, an hour?
Ben (22:43):
ago, and we're so quick, we're so quick to just forget
the context of why or how ithappened to us Right, and we so
easily jump in and think it'scharacter flaws with other
people, but we had a miracle.
We did.
Yeah, we had a miracle, and soI got on my family thread and I
just said, hey, this hashappened.
Liz (22:58):
I got on my family thread and I just said, hey, this has
happened.
We need you to pray and I havesisters and a mom who, just like
jumped right in there over this.
They're like praying prayers andsending scriptures and all
these emojis and I was like dang, it's like an intercessory team
like this.
And so we began the process oflike going to the guest services
to see if they have it, and wewent to one.
(23:19):
Then we went to the other.
Well, we went to the first oneand they said it's not here,
let's call the other one.
They said it wasn't there.
Ben (23:28):
Yeah, so weird.
We called them and they weren'tthere, and then we show up to
the same place.
Liz (23:32):
Yeah, and I said to Ben I said let's just go in there and
just check the second one.
Ben (23:35):
So we went in and when that woman came around the corner
with the phone and the cash andthe cards and the ID and all the
things that you don't want tolose.
Liz (23:48):
And also, too, we were starting to call the bank to
pause the debit card, yeah.
And as I was calling the bank,I just felt a check in my heart
from the Lord, a pause.
I just felt like say pause.
Ben (24:03):
Yeah.
Liz (24:03):
And so I was like I don't know why I'm not supposed to do
this right now.
I'm like we are in a panic.
Ben (24:07):
Right.
Liz (24:07):
And so, anyway, we go in.
She comes in with it.
I literally looked at the womanand almost started crying.
I said you have no idea.
Ben (24:19):
She's and everything a miracle.
Yeah, it was a miracle, and itjust goes to show you how very
easily we see the worst inothers and excuse our own
behavior.
Liz (24:28):
Yeah, did you apologize?
Ben (24:30):
I probably need to yeah.
Liz (24:32):
I probably need to.
Ben (24:33):
I don't know if I expressed what I was feeling to this
person, but to our kids.
Liz (24:38):
I think this individual knows.
Ben (24:39):
Yeah, they probably do.
I mean when we gave the phoneback.
I think this individual knows.
Yeah, they probably do.
I mean when we gave the phoneback.
Liz (24:42):
Yeah, the joy and the rejoicing around the eight of us
.
I mean, you would have thoughtwe won the lottery.
I probably owe them an apology.
Oh wow, that's all right.
Yeah, you'll take care of that.
You're a good dad.
Another way to be humble.
Okay, next one.
Ben (24:56):
So just real quick, like Jesus often is the hardest on
the self-righteous but thegentlest with the humble, and
it's very easy to see that inscripture.
There's a couple of referenceswhere he's talking woe to you
Pharisees, you hypocrites.
He's pointing out theirproblems, he's pointing out
their own morality.
However, with the humble, it'sa little bit different story,
(25:20):
it's?
I don't condemn you anymore.
Go and sin no more.
It's almost like this hey,you're in the right posture of
heart.
Now you can continue on.
Liz (25:28):
He's looking at that heart.
Yeah, he really is, and he'sthat way and contrite with
several people in the Bible.
Ben (25:34):
You know the woman who washed Jesus's feet the woman
caught in adultery and even.
Zacchaeus right, it's almostlike these people who are
desperate and are humble, God isvery quick to forgive them.
Jesus is very quick to forgivethem.
But the ones who have thisinflated self-righteousness, God
calls them out.
Jesus calls them out.
Liz (25:54):
Yeah.
Ben (25:55):
And so I think that's a lesson for us Don't be
self-righteous, be humble, checkyourself, check yourself, check
yourself, be humble, checkyourself, check yourself, check
yourself and then, lastly, justum, being blind to our own
self-righteousness.
Jesus talks about this inmatthew 7, about the plank in
our own eye.
Right, and it's so like this isa central thing.
The self-righteousness issue ismentioned everywhere, I believe
(26:17):
, in scripture, and you can findit so, many, many different
places.
It's just essential to who weare to be able to say, hey, I
can't walk down this path ofinflating my own morality, I
can't do anything if I'm notwilling to humble myself Now, if
I'm not willing to take theplank out of my own eye to see
clearly the speck in mybrother's eye.
(26:38):
So the priority is our ownissues, our own inflated self
morality.
We've got to deal with thatfirst.
Liz (26:46):
It's a BM, but you know, we were together when we were at
this park and we were togetherfor quite a few days.
And you know, we spent a lot oftime together and I feel like
(27:11):
the kids did really good, I feellike we did good.
But you know, when you're hot,you're tired, you're hungry you
know all kinds of things arehappening.
Ben (27:18):
Specs start appearing.
Liz (27:20):
Yeah, and I had some individuals come to me, some of
my kids, and start talking about, well, this one, and then that
one, and I'm like well, did youconsider this?
How about you?
You know?
And so you mean, they were ableto see around those planks.
Oh, we had to work on.
It Must have some mirrors, butyou know what ended up happening
was there was a softening ofhearts and an understanding that
(27:44):
, hey, they're just human andthey're just trying to make it
too.
Yeah, you know, and that's whatwe need to remember, and having
grace on one another.
Ben (27:51):
Really is.
Liz (27:51):
Everybody's.
Just we have no idea.
I know I've said this before,but you know, you always hear
people are coming out of a storm, they're in the midst of the
storm or they're about to gointo a storm.
The midst of the storm, orthey're about to go into a storm
.
And so if we just have gracefor those that God brings across
our path and we keep that inmind.
That's going to keep us humbleand keep us out of
self-righteousness.
Ben (28:07):
Huge.
Super important it is One otherthing that I totally forgot
about, but another quick sign ofthat Pharisee mindset is
assigning moral blame based oncircumstances.
Liz (28:20):
Oh yes, this is actually something that.
Ben (28:23):
Jesus talks about quite a bit, and I just want to give two
real quick examples John 9, 1through 3,.
As he passed by, he saw a blindman from birth and his
disciples asked him, rabbi, whosinned this man or his parents,
that he was born blind?
So they're basically looking atthe circumstances, thinking
there's a moral issue involvedhere.
(28:44):
Jesus answered it was not thatthe man sinned or his parents,
but that the works of God mightbe displayed in him.
Liz (28:50):
Powerful.
Ben (28:51):
In Luke 13, one through five.
There were some present at thevery time who told him about the
Galileans whose blood Pilatehad mingled with their
sacrifices.
So these people were executed,and he answered them do you
think these Galileans were worsesinners than other Galileans
because they had suffered inthis way?
No, I tell you.
But unless you repent, you willall likewise perish.
(29:12):
So this concept of like, well,were they worse off sinners?
Liz (29:17):
Right.
Ben (29:18):
Because they were the ones that died Right.
No, it's not about that.
It's about understanding.
We're all in need, we're allsinners.
Liz (29:24):
Right.
Ben (29:25):
And we can't sign, you know , moral blame to every
circumstance.
So we got to get out of thatmindset of just always thinking
well, if that person's goingthrough a hard time maybe
they're not right with God Right, or maybe they're not tithing.
Liz (29:39):
Yeah, I thought that before .
So have I.
Ben (29:42):
I was like man, that guy's not tithing.
I wonder if he's getting whathe deserves here.
It's terrible.
Liz (29:47):
It's terrible, but the Lord says that the rain comes on the
righteous and the unrighteous.
Ben (29:50):
That's right, yes, and in my business.
Liz (29:52):
I saw that all the time yeah.
Ben (29:56):
And I.
We're not in that position tojudge who gets the rain Preach.
Oh my gosh, can you imaginewhat a headache that would be?
Liz (30:04):
I don't want to be the rainmaker.
We don't want to be the onethat assigns the rain.
Ben (30:08):
We want to just believe that God is good, yes, and that
he is compassionate and graciousand we don't have to be the
ones to judge others and figureout why they're experiencing the
things they are.
Liz (30:24):
We just have to pray for them and extend mercy, just like
we would want it ourselvesExactly, especially when people
are walking through some of thehardest circumstances in their
lives.
We recently had a family friendwho has a couple of small kids
and he passed away and some ofthe things that came against the
wife the spouse the questions,like well are you praying hard
enough?
Are you having faith?
Do you believe?
It's like?
Ben (30:40):
you know the question's like well, are you praying hard
enough?
Are you having?
Liz (30:41):
faith Do you believe?
And we don't fully understandwhy the Lord took him home, but
we don't judge that.
We love the family.
We love them through it.
Ben (30:51):
We're not God.
Liz (30:52):
We don't get to decide what's right and wrong and we
miss him.
Yeah, oh, a hundred percent,yeah.
Ben (30:58):
Yeah, and it you know, we knew this person really well and
we were contending for hishealing.
Liz (31:03):
Yeah.
Ben (31:03):
And.
But here's the thing we'rehumbled that it happened like it
happened, and we just have totrust the Lord.
We do have to trust the Lord,and we can't get into that game
of, you know, assigning blameLike that's the.
I think that's the whole pointof these passages we don't get
to be the ones who assign blame.
Liz (31:18):
Right.
Ben (31:19):
God is the ultimate judge.
Liz (31:21):
Thank God.
Thank God, I'd be a terriblejudge.
That's the point.
Yeah, thank you, we'll catchyou there.
Thank you, okay, let's moveinto something happy.
Ben (31:33):
What can we talk about?
Oh yeah, I think you got astory you want to share about
some of the perception thing orjudging others too quickly.
Liz (31:41):
Okay, so we're going to talk about our honeymoon real
quick.
So we've been married 20 years,so this is 20 years ago which
is amazing, and we well.
There's a lot to this story,but I'm going to try to make it
short because of time.
Anywho, we finally get on theship and this was after.
so some people are good atdirections and some people
(32:01):
aren't, and some people are goodat directions and some people
aren't, and some people areplanners and some people are not
planners and so I happen to bethe planner and I didn't know
that when I got married, thatthat was a A gift that I was
going to have to use for therest of my life.
When I said I do.
Ben (32:15):
What about navigating?
Did you understand that one?
Liz (32:17):
I did not know that I was signing up to be the captain of
navigation in our marriage.
So, anywho, all that to say, welike get married, we have our
first night at a B&B down by thecoast and then we're like, okay
, we're going to go on a cruise.
And he planned the whole thing.
And but there were somespecific things that he needed
to know about, like, for anexample, what time the you could
(32:39):
not get on the ship.
You know cause he's like, foran example, what time that you
could not get on the ship, youknow because he's like, oh, the
ship's leaving at this time, sowe have up until this time.
Well, it's not.
You have to go through security, you have to do all these
things, and you know where arewe parking, exactly, how far is
the drive.
And this is back when we hadMapQuest that you would print
out.
Yeah, there's no GPS on yourphone, so anyway, so, yeah, so
(33:00):
we almost missed the ship.
There's a whole story in that.
We'll save that for anotherepisode.
Yeah, because that's a veryfunny story.
Yeah, we'll, we'll save thatbecause it will be too long.
Okay, so we get on the ship,and I've never been on a cruise
ship before you.
You had, and I wanted toexplore.
But something a little knownfact about my husband that I
didn't know is that he requiresa lot of sleep.
Ben (33:21):
This is true.
Liz (33:22):
This is he needs a lot of sleep.
So when we had infants, even,in the hospital.
Ben (33:26):
He would sleep all the newborns.
I'm so bad.
Liz (33:34):
He requires a lot and I found out from friends that when
he was in high school he wouldbe out with them hanging out
doing whatever playing putt-putt, golf or whatever and he'd be
like sorry guys, it's 8.30 orit's nine o'clock.
I got to go home and go to bed.
He's a senior in high school,18 years old.
They're like seriously.
Ben (33:51):
It's not like I woke up early either.
No, it just requires a lot ofsleep.
I just needed to go to bed.
Liz (33:56):
So anyway, thank God he's an entrepreneur because he can
set his schedule right.
He can set a schedule and hecan get all the sleepy needs.
So, anyway, we get to thiscruise ship and I'm like, let's
explore.
That's my personality when Iget to a place, I want to
understand the lay of the land,and I didn't fully have the
understanding of the vocabularyto express this yet, because we
were only married one day, butit was, yeah, intense.
(34:20):
So, anyway, I'm like, let's golook at the cruise ship and
you're like, let's go to bed.
What?
And he literally just wanted togo to sleep.
I'm like I can't go to sleep.
Oh, because it was past 9o'clock.
Ben (34:31):
Well, also, we had the most stressful time getting to the
ship?
Liz (34:34):
Yeah, and yeah, that was another episode and so, anywho.
So we're on the ship and yousaid I want to go to bed.
And I'm like, no, I want to golook at the cruise ship
exploring.
Yeah, and he's like, well, Iwant to go to sleep.
And when he said he wanted togo to sleep, he goes well, I'm
going to bed.
He takes his wedding ring offand puts it on the nightstand.
Well, I come from a big familyand when you do actions like
(35:05):
that oh no, you didn't, becausein my family my parents slept
with their wedding rings on.
Well, he had only had a weddingring for one day and it was
uncomfortable, he hadn't gottenused to it.
Ben (35:09):
Well, and my parents always took their rings off.
Liz (35:11):
Yeah, well, we never talked about this.
So how was I supposed to know,right?
So he takes his wedding ringoff and says, well, I'm going to
bed.
And I thought, oh no, youdidn't.
What are you saying?
And I'm a hot tamale.
So I was like fine, go to bed.
So I was ticked, dude, ifsomebody tried to mug me or
kidnap me on that ship, theywere not going to like what they
(35:33):
got.
I was like boom, mad.
So I walked that ship for abouttwo hours.
I remember sitting outside theroom on some stairs for like 30
minutes just to make sure youwere missing me.
Wow, and yeah, well, I was.
And so I'm sitting there andI'm like, okay, it's been long
enough, it's been like two and ahalf hours.
So I go and open up the doorand do you know what he's doing?
(35:54):
Sleeping, snoring sound asleep.
Ben (35:56):
He didn't come look for me, he didn't stay up and worry for
me, sound asleep.
Liz (35:59):
He didn't come, look for me , he didn't stay up and worry
for me, nothing.
So I was like, okay, fine, andso I took my pillows Because
there was a lot of pillows, thatwe were in a cruise ship and we
didn't have a lot of money, sowe were in an interior room,
which meant there were nowindows and not a lot of room,
and so I took my pillows and Iput them beside me you might
(36:20):
have a suitcase too.
Ben (36:24):
I did not put a suitcase there we had a big king bed, so
I put those pillows right downthe middle.
You made the Great Wall ofChina.
Liz (36:27):
I did Right down the middle Intentionally, yet not
intentionally, and I was like Igot to get some sleep.
I'm tired, so anyway, I go tosleep.
Ben (36:33):
You literally walled me off .
Liz (36:34):
I did.
So I go to sleep and he wakesup at some point, probably after
his precious, not just eighthours, but probably 10 hours of
sleep I'm just kidding, he doesgood on eight.
So he wakes up and I rememberI'm like half awake, half asleep
, because that's what women do,Like it takes a lot for us to
get that deep rim, anyway.
And so he's like hey, where areyou?
(36:56):
What happened?
And he's like, touching overall these pillows.
He's like what did you do?
Why are you so far away?
And I mean, we've only beenmarried.
This is our second night in thesame bed and I was like don't
touch me.
And I'm up against the edge asfar as I can go.
And he's like what happened?
Why are you mad at me?
I'm like what are you thinking?
I'm like you took your weddingring off so, anyway, it was all
(37:22):
about misperception.
Ben (37:22):
What am I leaving out?
I feel like I'm leaving.
Well, I think what's reallyfunny is I'm the one that leaves
my ring on now, and you're theone because I've cut, I've cut,
I cut myself with my diamond andwith all the infants.
I just never wanted, so itbecame a habit?
yeah, because I'm like I justdon't want to hurt anybody in
the night and I'm like that'stoo too much trouble to take it
off, so I'm just going to leaveit on.
Oh my gosh.
(37:45):
But the thing is is we haddifferent perceptions?
Liz (37:48):
right, we did.
Ben (37:49):
You saw, that same act that I did, but you took it from a
different perspective, right,and you know, it's just funny
how we ended up in differentplaces.
Yeah, we didn we didn't haveill will at that point.
Well, I didn't have ill will inmy heart.
Liz (38:01):
No, you didn't.
But you didn't come and find meeither.
Ben (38:03):
Right, that's true, it's true.
And my norm was going to bed,your norm was Exploring,
exploring, and so I was like,how dare she do this?
I'm so tired.
Liz (38:12):
And you're like how dare he go to sleep?
I want to go explore.
So it's just a funny story.
It is a funny story, funnystory.
We'll need to share the firstpart of that at some point, at
some point yeah, there's anotherone, though, that I really want
to mention.
Ben (38:30):
This is not about us.
This happened um with aholocaust survivor oh yeah, um,
his last name is denor.
His first name I don't reallyknow how to pronounce super well
uh, yeahael.
I don't know, maybe I'm mixingthat up, yael, but anyways, he
had to testify against AdolfEichmann, and Adolf Eichmann was
one of the masterminds behindthe final solution.
(38:52):
So probably not a decent guy,no, I mean.
Yeah, anyways, he's not thebest of us.
The problem, though, is whenD'Nor went to go testify against
him in 1961, he starts talkingabout him and he sees him Right,
and he faints, yeah, and it'sactually televised.
(39:15):
So he faints on live TV.
So he was in a 60 minutesbroadcast later, actually a
couple decades later, right.
And so the broadcaster wasasking him like what happened in
this moment, like what were youfeeling?
And it's crazy, what denoursays he says I was actually
afraid about myself.
I saw that I was capable to dothis, and the underlying thing
(39:40):
here is that he saw AdolfEichmann as a normal person,
just someone like you and me,and he has this realization, as
he's testifying Right, and hisfinal conclusion here is I am
exactly like he Meaning I'm ableto do the exact same kinds of
atrocities that Adolf Eichmanndid.
Liz (40:02):
Right.
Ben (40:03):
It's mind-blowing.
Mind-blowing we always think ofthe Nazis as kind of like this
extreme example, or at leastwe're not like the Nazis.
Liz (40:10):
Right.
Ben (40:10):
And here's someone who's gone through the concentration
camp, someone who has-.
Liz (40:15):
Who was a recipient of terrible crimes.
He has every right to think ofthis person as other than Right
right.
Ben (40:22):
And what does he do?
Liz (40:23):
He recognizes his own propensity to do something just
as atrocious His humanness.
Ben (40:35):
Crazy.
I think that is super importanta few decisions or a few
circumstances away from beingable to commit something so
crazy and realizing that we allneed a savior.
Liz (40:49):
Yes, I know, I need one.
Ben (40:51):
From the perceived worst of us to the perceived best of us.
We all are in the same boat,which is that we need help.
Liz (40:57):
So let's wrap this up, Ben.
Ben (40:59):
Some takeaways.
Let's go through some takeaways.
Liz (41:00):
All right, let's do it.
Ben (41:01):
Right, acknowledging that none of us are good, that we all
need a savior.
This is actually good news.
It's freeing, and this wholeconversation started with the
book the Truth About Us, andit's a brand handsome book, like
you mentioned Super great Ben'sfavorite.
My favorite author.
Liz (41:19):
I mean, it's just life changing really.
Ben (41:21):
And so this book, the Truth About Us, has all these points
in it, and we're just going tohit them real quick.
Liz (41:27):
And you're going to put a link in the notes.
Right, yeah, put a link in thenotes so that you can find it
Highly highly.
Highly recommend it, great book.
Ben (41:33):
He also wrote Unaffendable another one of my favorite,
all-time favorites.
But recognizing our addictionto feel morally superior,
there's actually kind of likealmost a drug type of addiction.
We get a dopamine hit.
The studies have shown we get adopamine hit when we're able to
justify ourselves especially ascompared to other people.
(41:53):
That is crazy, crazy, and sowe've got to get off that
addiction cycle and realize weall have the propensity to do
wrong.
That is crazy it is.
So get off of the at least Idon't cycle and get onto.
Hey, I am a sinner.
I need justification before theLord, just like the tax
collector.
It's a pathway to freedom.
(42:14):
It really is.
Admitting that we're not goodis a pathway to freedom.
We can stop the comparison game.
We can recognize that our valuedoesn't depend on our goodness.
It actually just depends onJesus's evaluation of us.
He thought we were worthyenough to die for, even in our
sinful state.
So our comparison doesn't needto start with well, I'm better
(42:37):
than this.
No, we have value because theLord loves us and died for us
and he created us ultimately.
So I mean we can find our valuein him versus in our own
morality, and I think that's sofreeing.
It gives us joy.
We don't have to defend our ownimage.
We don't have to, you know getin that cycle of moral
(42:57):
superiority and it'll actuallyhelp us to have more grace for
others and we'll be able to havebetter capacity for genuine
relationship where we're nottrying to judge one another.
Liz (43:06):
It's like looking through the right lens.
Ben (43:08):
It is.
Liz (43:09):
We need the right lens.
Ben (43:10):
We need that humble periscope to be able to see each
other.
Liz (43:13):
Yeah, and I'm just thinking how do we do it practically
Holy Spirit every day.
Ben (43:18):
Holy Spirit, lord, help me, give me clean hands and a pure
heart.
Liz (43:21):
Yes, yeah, yeah, 100%.
Keep me pliable, keep mepliable.
Ben (43:24):
And the scripture takeaway for today is the first scripture
that we talked about.
It's the tax collector and thePharisee oh yeah, but it sums up
.
Jesus sums it up in verse 14.
He says I tell you, this manwent down to his, his house,
justified rather than the other,for everyone who exalts himself
will be humbled, but the onewho humbles himself will be
(43:46):
exalted.
That's it.
I mean that's it.
We have to be humble, andespecially when it comes to our
own self-righteousness.
Liz (43:55):
Yep, it's good.
Well, what an episode.
Wow, we went over under, aroundand through to get this episode
done.
Tell you what, guys.
So hopefully this has been ablessing to you.
I know it's been a blessing tous discussing it and, of course,
listening to Brant Hansen'sbook while we were traveling.
That's how come we're doingthis episode, but we just want
to say thank you so much forbeing a part of our one blessed
(44:17):
mess, our one BM.
Right, ben?
That's right.
What do you say?
You say oh one BM.
Oh one BM.
Oh one BM Hour, one BM.
But don't forget to subscribeand like and share with a friend
who needs this encouragement,wherever you're listening from.
I'm not sure how, but give us acomment as well.
That helps us get the word out.
And follow us on Instagram orFacebook.
(44:38):
We have little pages there, andso we'd love to have you follow
us, and also we love hearingfrom you.
We've gotten quite a few DMsand it has been so encouraging.
Yes, very encouraging Because weare just.
We're not experts, we're justliving life.
We're bringing you in on theconversation.
What were you going to?
Ben (44:55):
say.
I said, hopefully we're humbleenough to admit that we need the
encouragement.
Yeah, it always comes at theright time.
Yeah, it does.
It's amazing.
Liz (45:04):
We always get it at the right time.
But anyway, we just want to saythank you for tuning in with us
and until next time, embraceyour beautiful mess, because if
our mess can be blessed, thenwhat, ben?
Then so can yours, that's right.
So can yours.
Welcome to our One Blessed Mess.
This is Ben and Liz, and we'rehere telling our story of how we
raised six kids that we had ineight years, managing a
entrepreneurial home with twobusinesses, homeschooling, and
currently we are raising fourteenagers plus seven chickens
and two dogs to keep itinteresting.
But you know what?
You guys are adding some goats.
(00:26):
We're about to add some goats.
So we've got all the blessedmess going on in our home.
It is happening and we've gotan exciting topic to talk about
today and I just want to saygetting this podcast going has
been fun, but getting thisepisode going today has been
real fun.
We've had all kinds of things.
We walked into the studio andour sign fell down.
Ben (00:49):
It broke down.
It broke down.
Not only did it fall down, itjust broke in two pieces and we
had to hot glue that sucker backtogether.
Liz (00:56):
It's a prayer and a miracle that that's staying up there.
And then also the lamp fellbecause we were fixing that and
the lamp fell over and the lightbulb broke.
Ben (01:05):
And we've already tried to do this episode once or twice to
begin with.
So it's just like one thingafter another.
So we feel like maybe it's animportant topic.
I don't know.
Liz (01:13):
It must be important.
Ben looked at me, goes what isup with our topic?
I said I don't know, but weshould pray.
So we've prayed, we're prayedwe've prayed.
Ben (01:26):
We're prepared.
We prayed up.
Yeah, we are prayed up but uh,yeah, it's a it is a kind of an
intense topic, it is.
You know, we like to keepthings, you know, fun, um, but
this one, this one's hard totalk about because it involves
ourselves and it involves ourown self-righteousness, but I
think at the end there's reallya positive light I agree, you
know, but we're gonna keep itfun today too still like we have
some stories and some thingsthat are.
Liz (01:45):
Agree, but we're going to keep it fun today.
Still, we have some stories andsome things that are applicable
to what we're talking about,because when Ben and I were
talking about this subject, Isaid honey, this is intense.
Anytime we're talking aboutourself is intense,
self-righteousness, all right.
So what exactly are we talkingabout?
Ben (02:00):
Well, we're going to talk about our self-righteousness,
but in the context of Luke 18,10 through 14.
Yep, and so I'll just read itreal quick and maybe I'll even
summarize it.
So Jesus is talking to a groupof people that consider
themselves righteous, and hegives them an example.
He says two men went up to thetemple to pray, one a Pharisee,
(02:20):
one a tax collector.
The Pharisee, standing byhimself, prayed thus God, I
thank you that I am not likeother men, extortioners, unjust
adulterers, or even like thistax collector.
I fast twice a week, I givetithes of all that I get, but
the tax collector, standing faroff, he wouldn't even lift up
his eyes to heaven, but insteadhe beat his breast, breast
(02:43):
saying God, be merciful to me, asinner, I tell you.
This man went down to his housejustified.
This is Jesus speaking, ratherthan the other, For everyone who
exalts himself will be humbled,and the one who humbles himself
will be exalted.
And I think that's the key islike how do we see ourselves
right?
Do we see ourselves in need ofmercy?
Do we see ourselves in thathumble position of knowing our
(03:06):
own limits, knowing our owndepravity?
Liz (03:10):
Or do we see?
Ben (03:11):
ourselves like the Pharisee who says well, at least I'm not
like the other guy.
Liz (03:17):
Well, that actually makes me think of a story.
That guy, that guy.
So we love Brant Hanson, sowe'll probably be talking about
him in this episode.
But I remember when we needed anew dishwasher and this is when
we moved into this house, whichwe love, our home, and I think
it was the original dishwasherbecause it was a piece of work,
(03:38):
and when you have a family aslarge as mine, as large as ours,
we have to run a dishwasherlike often, yeah, often, and so,
anyway, the dishwasher wasn'treally cleaning the plates too
well, and so, and then we alsohad an issue with our garbage
disposal, and so the handymanthat I married, aka Ben, he's
(03:59):
like oh, I can fix that garbagedisposal, no big deal.
So he does, he fixes thegarbage disposal and it's
working.
Ben (04:08):
All of a sudden, we think it's working.
Liz (04:09):
We think it's working, All of a sudden the dishwasher
completely stops.
So we went from one massiveLike it wouldn't even run.
No, it wouldn't even run.
I was like holy moly.
So I'm secretly praising Godbecause I hate our dishwasher.
I've had it.
I'm like it needs to go todishwasher heaven or hell,
whichever, and anyway it justneeds to be out of my house.
Ben (04:29):
Was that dishwasher a Pharisee or a tax collector?
It was definitely a Pharisee.
It was a Pharisee.
Liz (04:33):
Okay, so we go to, I think, best Buy, and I am loving
finding a new dishwasher.
We got a top rack that comes out, so there's like three racks
and all these features, and I'mlike, let's go, let's go.
Okay, so we get a newdishwasher.
It takes a while for them tocome and bring it in.
Well, they bring in the new one.
They do like one little simpletest of like running the water
(04:55):
through it and they leave.
Well, I go to run a load and itwill not work at all, will not
work.
It stops working, just like theother one did.
Yeah, and I'm like holy moly.
So I call they, send this otherguy that came out.
He was like this handy, dandyman who has been apparently
(05:15):
doing dishwashers and appliancesfor a really long time, because
he was like there's no way.
Oh, and he was the one whoinstalled it.
He's like, I know it works,it's brand new.
And I'm like, well, it's notworking.
And he tried it, it wouldn'twork.
So he gets down in there andhe's figuring it all out and
then he goes.
So is that a new garbagedisposal?
And I said, yes, he goes.
Well, the idiot that put it inthere installed it incorrectly
(05:39):
and didn't flip the one switchor whatever it is.
I don't know.
Ben (05:42):
It was a little cap that needed to come off, yeah.
Liz (05:44):
Well, it's a flux capacitor .
Ben (05:46):
I'm sure.
Liz (05:47):
So anyway, he didn't take care of it.
And he's like and I don't knowwho that guy is, but he is an
idiot, Don't ever hire him again.
And I'm like yes, sir.
Yeah, absolutely so.
Anyway, he takes the cap, hedoes the thing I don't know, and
the dishwasher has been workingever since.
But what was funny is this guywas just like automatically like
(06:09):
this.
Ben (06:10):
Person is an idiot.
Liz (06:11):
Assume the worst and I'm like dude, did you ever make a
mistake?
Ben (06:17):
Have you ever made a mistake?
Yeah, yeah, I have, but I wastoo maybe self-righteous to
admit it was me.
That was the idiot thatinstalled it incorrectly.
Liz (06:27):
It was you, and I came and found you because you were in a
meeting with work and I was like, hey, so did you know about
this thing that you have to do?
And that's why it wasn'tworking.
And so we had gone for a coupleof weeks without a dishwasher
and then Ben turns to me and hesays, oh, we didn't need to get
a new dishwasher.
Ben (06:42):
I was like, nope, the Lord heard my prayer says, oh, we
didn't need to get a newdishwasher.
I was like, nope, the Lordheard my prayer.
Liz (06:46):
I think it was wise that you didn't fix it correctly.
So anyway, that's our storySome self-righteousness on both
parts.
Ben (06:54):
Both parts, oh yeah, yeah, for sure, and I think a lot of
people would say they identifywith the tax collector right,
they identify as the centercenter.
Liz (07:04):
But we did a little research into some studies and
unfortunately that's not thecase most people inflate their
own sense of righteousness yes,and this is a little intense, as
ben is going to go through thisbecause when he was finding
this research and he's readingit to me, I was like, oh gosh,
so try to go through it quickly,because it's so painful.
All right, I'm gonna go through.
Yeah it because it's so painful.
All right, I'm going to gothrough yeah.
Ben (07:24):
Quickly, it is painful.
So we have three studies here.
One of them is back in 1981.
So it's a little older, butthey did a survey regarding how
well you rate yourself as adriver.
Liz (07:37):
And I asked him.
I said who do they interview?
Okay, keep going, Just stop,Just go.
Ben (07:48):
Basically the short of it.
We won't go into the details,but the short of it is that 93%
of drivers rate themselves aboveaverage.
So statistically that'simpossible to be correct.
I mean, there's a very rarechance that that could be
correct if the worst people arereally really, really bad.
But yeah, we over inflate ourconcept of being able to drive.
Liz (08:08):
I think I'm a good driver.
Ben (08:10):
Well.
Liz (08:11):
I'm in the above average.
Ben (08:12):
Are you in the 93% above average?
Liz (08:14):
93%.
Just don't ask our kidsEspecially the ones that are
learning to drive right now.
Oh, my lord Anyway.
Ben (08:21):
So that's kind of funny, right, right, right, yeah.
So this and that one is by Olaand Svensson, and the second one
is revolved around this conceptof self-enhancement Right?
This one's really interesting.
I tried, and I tried to figureout exactly how they rated this
concept of irrational versusrational judgment when it comes
(08:45):
to our own morality.
Okay, but it's very difficultto understand all the metrics.
However, the takeaway is that90% of participants in this
study used irrational behaviorand how they justified their own
morality versus the morality ofothers.
Liz (09:02):
Yes.
Ben (09:02):
So the takeaway is that when we consider ourselves and
we judge ourselves, we're veryirrational in how we rate
ourselves morally, right To thepoint where 90% of us do it
right Like that's crazy.
So this is a 2017 study, sodefinitely newer.
Tappan and McKay SocialPsychology and Personality Go
(09:23):
look that up.
Go get into the details of that.
If you want to nerd out, golook it up.
Liz (09:30):
If not just listen to us.
Ben (09:32):
You're fine.
The short of it is we're veryirrational when it comes to
judging our own morality.
Liz (09:36):
No, not on social media, wow.
Ben (09:43):
No, Okay.
And then this last one here.
This was a 2000 study, Epleyand Dunning.
They studied how likely we wereto do good and then we would
rate ourselves or estimateourselves how likely we would do
good in the future, andbasically we have a doubling
effect.
So we almost double the amountin our minds that we would do
(10:07):
good versus what we actually do.
So all three of these studiesjust kind of show that we have
this propensity to inflate oursense of self when it comes to
our own capabilities, our ownmorality, and there's tons of
other studies out there.
These are just three that Icherry picked, but there's a
bunch of them out there that allreinforce the same concept of
like this self-enhancementeffect.
And there's tons of otherstudies out there these are just
three that I cherry picked, butthere's a bunch of them out
there that all reinforce thesame concept of like this
(10:28):
self-enhancement effect.
Liz (10:30):
Right.
Ben (10:30):
Where we give ourselves the benefit of the doubt or even
the benefit beyond doubt, andthen, when it comes to others,
we're very critical.
Liz (10:39):
Oh, keep moving on, just keep going so let's just do a
thought experiment real quick.
Okay, okay.
So I have to think, you have tothink.
Let me take another sip ofcoffee.
Ben (10:50):
And maybe you could even close your eyes so you're not
distracted.
But just ask yourself thisquestion Are you a good person?
So what comes to mind, right,do I?
Liz (11:01):
have to answer, I mean, okay, keep going, we'll just let
our audience do that right,okay.
Ben (11:08):
And I've done it several times and I always think, well,
okay, I'm pretty good because Idon't do this and I don't do
that, and it's almost natural tokind of like do the checklist
comparison.
Liz (11:20):
Like I'm not lying, I'm not stealing, yeah, yeah.
Like I'm not lying, I'm notstealing, yeah yeah.
Ben (11:24):
Or like, well, I'm not like the prisoners, or I'm not like
these people, or it's justnatural to do that mental
checklist, and especially whenit comes to the concept of our
own morality, our own goodness,or our own worth, and so this is
kind of intense, because theBible and especially I believe
Jesus is teaching basicallytells us that we aren't good.
Liz (11:46):
Right.
Ben (11:48):
And when we get in touch with that sense of knowing that
we're not good deep down inside,I think it frees us up, right,
it frees us up to be humble,primarily, and then we don't
have to play this judgment gamewhere it's like, well, at least
we're not like that guy who doesthis thing.
Liz (12:05):
You mean the person who fixed the garbage disposal.
Ben (12:09):
At least I'm not like that idiot who didn't install it
right.
Liz (12:11):
Said you were an idiot too, which is funny.
Okay, keep going.
Ben (12:15):
So this is what's kind of important about this whole thing
is how Jesus frames it, right.
So let's just do a few littlescripture references about what
Jesus thinks about our inherentgoodness or this concept of
being good, right?
So Mark 10, 17,.
As he was setting out on ajourney, a man ran up and knelt
before him and asked him goodteacher, what must I do to
(12:37):
inherit eternal life?
Jesus says to him why do youcall me good?
No one is good except God alone.
Yep, that's a really confusingverse because here you have
Jesus basically saying don'tcall me good.
Or why are you calling me good?
Right, and this could bemultifaceted.
It could be the fact that he's,you know, underlying kind of
the fact that he is God, but Ialso think it's a little deeper.
(12:59):
I think it's he's not wantingto equate humanity with good,
even the form of humanity thathe took on.
He's sinless, yes, right, butthere's only one good source,
and that's God, the father.
Liz (13:11):
God, the father, abba, God, papa God.
Ben (13:13):
And so it's just really interesting that he's stressing
that point.
And then again in Matthew 7, 11, we kind of see a similar thing
.
If you, then, who are evil,know how to give good gifts to
your children, how much moreyour father, who is in heaven,
give good things to those whoask him.
Liz (13:29):
Love that verse, one of my favorites, especially as a
parent.
Ben (13:35):
It's kind of intense that he kind of slips that in there,
you who are evil right and wekind of like gloss over that and
think about oh yeah, it's thegift giving thing.
Liz (13:45):
And no, you know, but it's not.
Ben (13:46):
There's this point that I believe God's trying to make
we're all evil.
Liz (13:50):
Yes.
Ben (13:51):
Sorry, jesus is trying to make.
We're all evil and I don'tthink we can just gloss over
that.
I think we have to embrace that, to know that, you know, we, we
have this thing, we have thisproblem, the condition of our
hearts.
Liz (14:05):
Yeah, the human condition, the human condition.
Ben (14:07):
It's the human condition and he understands that.
Yes, he understands that.
I think we need to rememberthat he understands that.
Liz (14:12):
Of course, we don't always understand that because we're
constantly comparing ourselvesto others.
Yes, so, yeah, well, I likewhat it says in Jeremiah 79, the
heart is deceitful, above allthings, and desperately sick.
Who can understand it?
I know my heart is.
Ben (14:28):
Yes, yeah and yeah again.
These Old Testament passagesare really key as well, because
I feel like they've already seta foundation.
Jesus is just building on topof that.
What about?
Even in Psalms?
Liz (14:41):
Oh, I love Psalms.
Okay, I'll read this one, psalm14, two through three.
The Lord looks down from heavenon the children of man to see
if there are any who understand,who seek after God.
They have all turned asidetogether and they have become
corrupt.
There is none who does a good,not even one, so just pressing.
Ben (15:01):
Not even one, I know.
But here's the good news aboutthat right, if we can come to
grips with the fact that we'renot good.
Liz (15:09):
I know.
Ben (15:10):
Where does it leave us?
Well, it leaves us in need ofsomething.
Liz (15:13):
Yeah, and it keeps us humble.
Ben (15:14):
Exactly, yeah, it needs us.
Well, it means that we need asavior.
Liz (15:19):
Right, I know I need a savior every day.
Ben (15:21):
Even when we come to faith, we have to continually keep
that posture of knowing we needJesus.
Yeah, it's not all said anddone.
We still have the propensity tosin, even as a believer.
Liz (15:33):
Right, right, and so every day, every day, yeah, and his
mercies are new.
Ben (15:37):
What?
Every morning?
Every morning, yeah, and so wehave to tap into that.
Yeah, and so we have to tapinto that.
So, like what are some commonsigns that we've let that
Pharisee mindset kind of takeroot in our thoughts or in our
life?
Maybe we can go through some ofthose practical things.
Liz (15:55):
Okay, like the comparison-based spirituality.
Ben (15:58):
Exactly.
Liz (15:59):
Okay, what does that mean, ben?
It's in our notes.
Ben (16:02):
Well, basically go back to what the Pharisee was doing.
Liz (16:06):
Remember he was saying at least, I'm not like these.
Yeah, I'm not like them, I fast, I give.
Ben (16:11):
Right, yep, at least I'm not like.
Liz (16:15):
I go to church every Sunday .
Ben (16:16):
If your prayer before the Lord, or if your posture before
the Lord starts with at least,I'm not like posture before the
Lord starts with.
Liz (16:24):
at least, I'm not like yeah , maybe you need to check
yourself.
Well, and I'm just thinking,you know, in today's time, I
mean back then they were goingto the temple on the Sabbath,
which was Saturday, friday intoSaturday.
But you know, here we are.
It's like, well, I go to church.
I tithe, you know, and we seesomebody else and we're like
they are far and really far fromwhat we would consider the
(16:46):
perfect Christian, when reallythey're the closest because
their hearts are so broken.
And we've witnessed that.
We've witnessed that.
Ben (16:55):
Yeah, it's like there's this scale, right, and it's not
based on your own self, likemorality or your sense of
self-morality.
It's actually based almost onthe opposite it's your ability
to recognize your own depravityexactly, and that leads us, and
it can lead us, to a place ofhumility.
I mean, that's where it has togo in order for it to to come to
(17:18):
this place that I believe jesusis wanting us to get to right
which is our need of him right?
if we can recognize our need ofhim, that's what ultimately
justifies him.
Liz (17:27):
Well, he's close to the brokenhearted.
Ben (17:29):
He is.
Liz (17:30):
That's what it says in his word, yeah, and so I just want
to encourage anybody who'slistening.
If you are brokenhearted, theLord is close to you.
Ben (17:37):
Oh man, I mean.
Liz (17:38):
I had one of the hardest years of my life last year.
Yes, one of the hardest yearsof my life.
Last year, yes, and he was soclose I could cry.
He was so close and sorelational, still so relational,
but he's a good father Rightand in my time of brokenness and
just all the things that Iwalked through and we've walked
through, he has been dear andnear and so, probably from the
(18:02):
outside, people would have beenthinking different, but only he
sees it Right.
And so you know, probably fromthe outside people would have
been thinking different, butonly he sees it.
Ben (18:06):
Right, yeah, and it's only when you're in that spot do you
really catch his ear like youwould right, exactly.
If we're thinking, oh, we'vegot it kind of put together, or
at least I'm not like that guy.
Liz (18:19):
Well listen, I am a hot mess and I will be the first one
to tell you.
I, that guy.
Well, listen, I am a hot messand I will be the first one to
tell you I might be a hottermess.
Yeah, you are pretty hot.
That's why we have six kids,not like that.
Ben (18:31):
No, hey, I got one in oh boy, come on, that was good Come
on, okay, keep going All right,all right Serious.
Liz (18:36):
Serious today Serious.
Ben (18:38):
That does dovetail into our next one, which is the concept
of virtue signaling right.
Oh yeah, Social media orotherwise, if we're putting our
things out there to be seen byother men or other women, just
like in the Beatitudes.
Liz (18:53):
That's our reward.
Ben (18:54):
Right, Right, that's the reward we get.
Liz (18:56):
No, I know, and it's so.
There is a fine line.
I feel as being an influencer.
It's so hard because, in a way,it's like you have a message
and you're to be a messenger,but all that can be filthy,
stank rags, right?
Yes, yeah, for real, yeah, forsure, for real, For sure.
Ben (19:16):
Yeah, or that could be your reward, right?
It's just that.
It's just the fact that youhave the platform.
If you're not doing it in theright motivation of heart, if
you're not humble, then you missout on the reward.
Liz (19:26):
Totally.
And what's the reward, Ben?
Ben (19:28):
The reward is God.
Yes, god's the reward.
Yes, yeah, he's what we hold onto.
So another one is selectiveBible application.
So another sign.
So we went through two alreadyComparison-based spirituality,
virtue signaling for the fact ofbeing seen.
And then this one is reallyintense Selected Bible
application.
(19:48):
Basically, what that means isbeing hard on others and easy on
yourself.
Liz (19:52):
No, that never happens in our family, never.
Ben (19:56):
Never, actually.
Liz (19:58):
Not with teenagers.
I got a little story.
Ben (20:00):
Oh yeah, this one happened recently actually.
Liz (20:02):
Okay.
Are you going to use any names?
No, I won't use any names.
Ben (20:05):
Okay, I'll try to protect the children.
But you know who you areBecause we're finding out that
our kids' friends are watchingthis podcast, our one less mess.
So one of our children.
Well, sorry, I guess it startswith me, so the story starts
with me.
So we were on a ride.
We recently went to a themepark.
I was on a ride.
My phone fell out of my pocket.
Oh yes, and I noticed it whenwe got off the ride.
(20:29):
It was probably about fiveminutes after we had left the
ride and I panicked and I waslike oh shoot, I don't know
where my phone is, I don't knowwhere my phone is Right.
You're like did, because whenyou were on this ride you pulled
it out, so you knew you had itand it was a slow ride, so it
wasn't like a roller coaster oranything, yeah, but I ran back
and I talked to the littleattendant and and this attendant
(20:50):
was little.
Yeah.
Liz (20:51):
Which is kind of funny.
Ben (20:52):
She was.
Yeah, she was shorter than youactually she was.
Liz (20:55):
I was like she's my people, that's right, I love her.
She's my person, might.
Ben (20:58):
She's my person Might be related, yes, so anyways, she
pointed me to the front andwithin about 10 minutes we were
able to find it.
Liz (21:05):
Yeah, it was easy.
Ben (21:05):
Big relief.
Liz (21:06):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think you had to show your ID and
prove it was you or something.
Ben (21:08):
Yeah, yeah, or unlock it or something like that, I can't
remember.
Anyways, we go off throughoutour day about an hour or one of
my kids comes up to me and saysI don't know where my phone is.
Liz (21:22):
Uh-huh, and that was stressful.
Ben (21:24):
And that threw us into a tizzy.
Liz (21:26):
I was self-righteous.
Ben (21:28):
Well, hey, don't steal my story.
I was self-righteous, Okay keepgoing.
Liz (21:32):
We were both self-righteous .
I was hot in the wrong way.
Ben (21:35):
I was mad because we had just been stressed out about my
phone.
Liz (21:38):
Right.
Ben (21:43):
And I'm thinking to myself oh my gosh, and this particular
child happens to have a historyof losing things, as do I, but
anyways, we were talking aboutme.
Liz (21:48):
Let's pause on that for a second, because I know your
mom's going to watch this andshe will understand.
I have come to her, I'm likehelp, help.
And she's like well, at thisage it just clicked and we've
hit that age and it hasn'tclicked totally yet.
Ben (22:05):
So, anyway, keep going so, anyways, I just felt my blood
boiling and you know, I wasgetting angry, I was getting
upset yeah and you know westarted trying to ask questions
about where this person was whenthey last saw it remember.
Liz (22:20):
Yeah, you realize they couldn't remember.
Yeah, when did you realize youdon't have it?
Ben (22:23):
so we didn't even know where to go back to.
Like we were trying to figureout where to go back to when you
started guessing of the lastcouple places we had been and
all of a sudden I just was likeangry and judgmental and I was
like man, how, how is thispossible?
How could this person?
Lord was like, does this seemfamiliar?
Liz (22:40):
to you?
Didn't you just do this like anhour ago, an hour?
Ben (22:43):
ago, and we're so quick, we're so quick to just forget
the context of why or how ithappened to us Right, and we so
easily jump in and think it'scharacter flaws with other
people, but we had a miracle.
We did.
Yeah, we had a miracle, and soI got on my family thread and I
just said, hey, this hashappened.
Liz (22:58):
I got on my family thread and I just said, hey, this has
happened.
We need you to pray and I havesisters and a mom who, just like
jumped right in there over this.
They're like praying prayers andsending scriptures and all
these emojis and I was like dang, it's like an intercessory team
like this.
And so we began the process oflike going to the guest services
to see if they have it, and wewent to one.
(23:19):
Then we went to the other.
Well, we went to the first oneand they said it's not here,
let's call the other one.
They said it wasn't there.
Ben (23:28):
Yeah, so weird.
We called them and they weren'tthere, and then we show up to
the same place.
Liz (23:32):
Yeah, and I said to Ben I said let's just go in there and
just check the second one.
Ben (23:35):
So we went in and when that woman came around the corner
with the phone and the cash andthe cards and the ID and all the
things that you don't want tolose.
Liz (23:48):
And also, too, we were starting to call the bank to
pause the debit card, yeah.
And as I was calling the bank,I just felt a check in my heart
from the Lord, a pause.
I just felt like say pause.
Ben (24:03):
Yeah.
Liz (24:03):
And so I was like I don't know why I'm not supposed to do
this right now.
I'm like we are in a panic.
Ben (24:07):
Right.
Liz (24:07):
And so, anyway, we go in.
She comes in with it.
I literally looked at the womanand almost started crying.
I said you have no idea.
Ben (24:19):
She's and everything a miracle.
Yeah, it was a miracle, and itjust goes to show you how very
easily we see the worst inothers and excuse our own
behavior.
Liz (24:28):
Yeah, did you apologize?
Ben (24:30):
I probably need to yeah.
Liz (24:32):
I probably need to.
Ben (24:33):
I don't know if I expressed what I was feeling to this
person, but to our kids.
Liz (24:38):
I think this individual knows.
Ben (24:39):
Yeah, they probably do.
I mean when we gave the phoneback.
I think this individual knows.
Yeah, they probably do.
I mean when we gave the phoneback.
Liz (24:42):
Yeah, the joy and the rejoicing around the eight of us
.
I mean, you would have thoughtwe won the lottery.
I probably owe them an apology.
Oh wow, that's all right.
Yeah, you'll take care of that.
You're a good dad.
Another way to be humble.
Okay, next one.
Ben (24:56):
So just real quick, like Jesus often is the hardest on
the self-righteous but thegentlest with the humble, and
it's very easy to see that inscripture.
There's a couple of referenceswhere he's talking woe to you
Pharisees, you hypocrites.
He's pointing out theirproblems, he's pointing out
their own morality.
However, with the humble, it'sa little bit different story,
(25:20):
it's?
I don't condemn you anymore.
Go and sin no more.
It's almost like this hey,you're in the right posture of
heart.
Now you can continue on.
Liz (25:28):
He's looking at that heart.
Yeah, he really is, and he'sthat way and contrite with
several people in the Bible.
Ben (25:34):
You know the woman who washed Jesus's feet the woman
caught in adultery and even.
Zacchaeus right, it's almostlike these people who are
desperate and are humble, God isvery quick to forgive them.
Jesus is very quick to forgivethem.
But the ones who have thisinflated self-righteousness, God
calls them out.
Jesus calls them out.
Liz (25:54):
Yeah.
Ben (25:55):
And so I think that's a lesson for us Don't be
self-righteous, be humble, checkyourself, check yourself, check
yourself, be humble, checkyourself, check yourself, check
yourself and then, lastly, justum, being blind to our own
self-righteousness.
Jesus talks about this inmatthew 7, about the plank in
our own eye.
Right, and it's so like this isa central thing.
The self-righteousness issue ismentioned everywhere, I believe
(26:17):
, in scripture, and you can findit so, many, many different
places.
It's just essential to who weare to be able to say, hey, I
can't walk down this path ofinflating my own morality, I
can't do anything if I'm notwilling to humble myself Now, if
I'm not willing to take theplank out of my own eye to see
clearly the speck in mybrother's eye.
(26:38):
So the priority is our ownissues, our own inflated self
morality.
We've got to deal with thatfirst.
Liz (26:46):
It's a BM, but you know, we were together when we were at
this park and we were togetherfor quite a few days.
And you know, we spent a lot oftime together and I feel like
(27:11):
the kids did really good, I feellike we did good.
But you know, when you're hot,you're tired, you're hungry you
know all kinds of things arehappening.
Ben (27:18):
Specs start appearing.
Liz (27:20):
Yeah, and I had some individuals come to me, some of
my kids, and start talking about, well, this one, and then that
one, and I'm like well, did youconsider this?
How about you?
You know?
And so you mean, they were ableto see around those planks.
Oh, we had to work on.
It Must have some mirrors, butyou know what ended up happening
was there was a softening ofhearts and an understanding that
(27:44):
, hey, they're just human andthey're just trying to make it
too.
Yeah, you know, and that's whatwe need to remember, and having
grace on one another.
Ben (27:51):
Really is.
Liz (27:51):
Everybody's.
Just we have no idea.
I know I've said this before,but you know, you always hear
people are coming out of a storm, they're in the midst of the
storm or they're about to gointo a storm.
The midst of the storm, orthey're about to go into a storm
.
And so if we just have gracefor those that God brings across
our path and we keep that inmind.
That's going to keep us humbleand keep us out of
self-righteousness.
Ben (28:07):
Huge.
Super important it is One otherthing that I totally forgot
about, but another quick sign ofthat Pharisee mindset is
assigning moral blame based oncircumstances.
Liz (28:20):
Oh yes, this is actually something that.
Ben (28:23):
Jesus talks about quite a bit, and I just want to give two
real quick examples John 9, 1through 3,.
As he passed by, he saw a blindman from birth and his
disciples asked him, rabbi, whosinned this man or his parents,
that he was born blind?
So they're basically looking atthe circumstances, thinking
there's a moral issue involvedhere.
(28:44):
Jesus answered it was not thatthe man sinned or his parents,
but that the works of God mightbe displayed in him.
Liz (28:50):
Powerful.
Ben (28:51):
In Luke 13, one through five.
There were some present at thevery time who told him about the
Galileans whose blood Pilatehad mingled with their
sacrifices.
So these people were executed,and he answered them do you
think these Galileans were worsesinners than other Galileans
because they had suffered inthis way?
No, I tell you.
But unless you repent, you willall likewise perish.
(29:12):
So this concept of like, well,were they worse off sinners?
Liz (29:17):
Right.
Ben (29:18):
Because they were the ones that died Right.
No, it's not about that.
It's about understanding.
We're all in need, we're allsinners.
Liz (29:24):
Right.
Ben (29:25):
And we can't sign, you know , moral blame to every
circumstance.
So we got to get out of thatmindset of just always thinking
well, if that person's goingthrough a hard time maybe
they're not right with God Right, or maybe they're not tithing.
Liz (29:39):
Yeah, I thought that before .
So have I.
Ben (29:42):
I was like man, that guy's not tithing.
I wonder if he's getting whathe deserves here.
It's terrible.
Liz (29:47):
It's terrible, but the Lord says that the rain comes on the
righteous and the unrighteous.
Ben (29:50):
That's right, yes, and in my business.
Liz (29:52):
I saw that all the time yeah.
Ben (29:56):
And I.
We're not in that position tojudge who gets the rain Preach.
Oh my gosh, can you imaginewhat a headache that would be?
Liz (30:04):
I don't want to be the rainmaker.
We don't want to be the onethat assigns the rain.
Ben (30:08):
We want to just believe that God is good, yes, and that
he is compassionate and graciousand we don't have to be the
ones to judge others and figureout why they're experiencing the
things they are.
Liz (30:24):
We just have to pray for them and extend mercy, just like
we would want it ourselvesExactly, especially when people
are walking through some of thehardest circumstances in their
lives.
We recently had a family friendwho has a couple of small kids
and he passed away and some ofthe things that came against the
wife the spouse the questions,like well are you praying hard
enough?
Are you having faith?
Do you believe?
It's like?
Ben (30:40):
you know the question's like well, are you praying hard
enough?
Are you having?
Liz (30:41):
faith Do you believe?
And we don't fully understandwhy the Lord took him home, but
we don't judge that.
We love the family.
We love them through it.
Ben (30:51):
We're not God.
Liz (30:52):
We don't get to decide what's right and wrong and we
miss him.
Yeah, oh, a hundred percent,yeah.
Ben (30:58):
Yeah, and it you know, we knew this person really well and
we were contending for hishealing.
Liz (31:03):
Yeah.
Ben (31:03):
And.
But here's the thing we'rehumbled that it happened like it
happened, and we just have totrust the Lord.
We do have to trust the Lord,and we can't get into that game
of, you know, assigning blameLike that's the.
I think that's the whole pointof these passages we don't get
to be the ones who assign blame.
Liz (31:18):
Right.
Ben (31:19):
God is the ultimate judge.
Liz (31:21):
Thank God.
Thank God, I'd be a terriblejudge.
That's the point.
Yeah, thank you, we'll catchyou there.
Thank you, okay, let's moveinto something happy.
Ben (31:33):
What can we talk about?
Oh yeah, I think you got astory you want to share about
some of the perception thing orjudging others too quickly.
Liz (31:41):
Okay, so we're going to talk about our honeymoon real
quick.
So we've been married 20 years,so this is 20 years ago which
is amazing, and we well.
There's a lot to this story,but I'm going to try to make it
short because of time.
Anywho, we finally get on theship and this was after.
so some people are good atdirections and some people
(32:01):
aren't, and some people are goodat directions and some people
aren't, and some people areplanners and some people are not
planners and so I happen to bethe planner and I didn't know
that when I got married, thatthat was a A gift that I was
going to have to use for therest of my life.
When I said I do.
Ben (32:15):
What about navigating?
Did you understand that one?
Liz (32:17):
I did not know that I was signing up to be the captain of
navigation in our marriage.
So, anywho, all that to say, welike get married, we have our
first night at a B&B down by thecoast and then we're like, okay
, we're going to go on a cruise.
And he planned the whole thing.
And but there were somespecific things that he needed
to know about, like, for anexample, what time the you could
(32:39):
not get on the ship.
You know cause he's like, foran example, what time that you
could not get on the ship, youknow because he's like, oh, the
ship's leaving at this time, sowe have up until this time.
Well, it's not.
You have to go through security, you have to do all these
things, and you know where arewe parking, exactly, how far is
the drive.
And this is back when we hadMapQuest that you would print
out.
Yeah, there's no GPS on yourphone, so anyway, so, yeah, so
(33:00):
we almost missed the ship.
There's a whole story in that.
We'll save that for anotherepisode.
Yeah, because that's a veryfunny story.
Yeah, we'll, we'll save thatbecause it will be too long.
Okay, so we get on the ship,and I've never been on a cruise
ship before you.
You had, and I wanted toexplore.
But something a little knownfact about my husband that I
didn't know is that he requiresa lot of sleep.
Ben (33:21):
This is true.
Liz (33:22):
This is he needs a lot of sleep.
So when we had infants, even,in the hospital.
Ben (33:26):
He would sleep all the newborns.
I'm so bad.
Liz (33:34):
He requires a lot and I found out from friends that when
he was in high school he wouldbe out with them hanging out
doing whatever playing putt-putt, golf or whatever and he'd be
like sorry guys, it's 8.30 orit's nine o'clock.
I got to go home and go to bed.
He's a senior in high school,18 years old.
They're like seriously.
Ben (33:51):
It's not like I woke up early either.
No, it just requires a lot ofsleep.
I just needed to go to bed.
Liz (33:56):
So anyway, thank God he's an entrepreneur because he can
set his schedule right.
He can set a schedule and hecan get all the sleepy needs.
So, anyway, we get to thiscruise ship and I'm like, let's
explore.
That's my personality when Iget to a place, I want to
understand the lay of the land,and I didn't fully have the
understanding of the vocabularyto express this yet, because we
were only married one day, butit was, yeah, intense.
(34:20):
So, anyway, I'm like, let's golook at the cruise ship and
you're like, let's go to bed.
What?
And he literally just wanted togo to sleep.
I'm like I can't go to sleep.
Oh, because it was past 9o'clock.
Ben (34:31):
Well, also, we had the most stressful time getting to the
ship?
Liz (34:34):
Yeah, and yeah, that was another episode and so, anywho.
So we're on the ship and yousaid I want to go to bed.
And I'm like, no, I want to golook at the cruise ship
exploring.
Yeah, and he's like, well, Iwant to go to sleep.
And when he said he wanted togo to sleep, he goes well, I'm
going to bed.
He takes his wedding ring offand puts it on the nightstand.
Well, I come from a big familyand when you do actions like
(35:05):
that oh no, you didn't, becausein my family my parents slept
with their wedding rings on.
Well, he had only had a weddingring for one day and it was
uncomfortable, he hadn't gottenused to it.
Ben (35:09):
Well, and my parents always took their rings off.
Liz (35:11):
Yeah, well, we never talked about this.
So how was I supposed to know,right?
So he takes his wedding ringoff and says, well, I'm going to
bed.
And I thought, oh no, youdidn't.
What are you saying?
And I'm a hot tamale.
So I was like fine, go to bed.
So I was ticked, dude, ifsomebody tried to mug me or
kidnap me on that ship, theywere not going to like what they
(35:33):
got.
I was like boom, mad.
So I walked that ship for abouttwo hours.
I remember sitting outside theroom on some stairs for like 30
minutes just to make sure youwere missing me.
Wow, and yeah, well, I was.
And so I'm sitting there andI'm like, okay, it's been long
enough, it's been like two and ahalf hours.
So I go and open up the doorand do you know what he's doing?
(35:54):
Sleeping, snoring sound asleep.
Ben (35:56):
He didn't come look for me, he didn't stay up and worry for
me, sound asleep.
Liz (35:59):
He didn't come, look for me , he didn't stay up and worry
for me, nothing.
So I was like, okay, fine, andso I took my pillows Because
there was a lot of pillows, thatwe were in a cruise ship and we
didn't have a lot of money, sowe were in an interior room,
which meant there were nowindows and not a lot of room,
and so I took my pillows and Iput them beside me you might
(36:20):
have a suitcase too.
Ben (36:24):
I did not put a suitcase there we had a big king bed, so
I put those pillows right downthe middle.
You made the Great Wall ofChina.
Liz (36:27):
I did Right down the middle Intentionally, yet not
intentionally, and I was like Igot to get some sleep.
I'm tired, so anyway, I go tosleep.
Ben (36:33):
You literally walled me off .
Liz (36:34):
I did.
So I go to sleep and he wakesup at some point, probably after
his precious, not just eighthours, but probably 10 hours of
sleep I'm just kidding, he doesgood on eight.
So he wakes up and I rememberI'm like half awake, half asleep
, because that's what women do,Like it takes a lot for us to
get that deep rim, anyway.
And so he's like hey, where areyou?
(36:56):
What happened?
And he's like, touching overall these pillows.
He's like what did you do?
Why are you so far away?
And I mean, we've only beenmarried.
This is our second night in thesame bed and I was like don't
touch me.
And I'm up against the edge asfar as I can go.
And he's like what happened?
Why are you mad at me?
I'm like what are you thinking?
I'm like you took your weddingring off so, anyway, it was all
(37:22):
about misperception.
Ben (37:22):
What am I leaving out?
I feel like I'm leaving.
Well, I think what's reallyfunny is I'm the one that leaves
my ring on now, and you're theone because I've cut, I've cut,
I cut myself with my diamond andwith all the infants.
I just never wanted, so itbecame a habit?
yeah, because I'm like I justdon't want to hurt anybody in
the night and I'm like that'stoo too much trouble to take it
off, so I'm just going to leaveit on.
Oh my gosh.
(37:45):
But the thing is is we haddifferent perceptions?
Liz (37:48):
right, we did.
Ben (37:49):
You saw, that same act that I did, but you took it from a
different perspective, right,and you know, it's just funny
how we ended up in differentplaces.
Yeah, we didn we didn't haveill will at that point.
Well, I didn't have ill will inmy heart.
Liz (38:01):
No, you didn't.
But you didn't come and find meeither.
Ben (38:03):
Right, that's true, it's true.
And my norm was going to bed,your norm was Exploring,
exploring, and so I was like,how dare she do this?
I'm so tired.
Liz (38:12):
And you're like how dare he go to sleep?
I want to go explore.
So it's just a funny story.
It is a funny story, funnystory.
We'll need to share the firstpart of that at some point, at
some point yeah, there's anotherone, though, that I really want
to mention.
Ben (38:30):
This is not about us.
This happened um with aholocaust survivor oh yeah, um,
his last name is denor.
His first name I don't reallyknow how to pronounce super well
uh, yeahael.
I don't know, maybe I'm mixingthat up, yael, but anyways, he
had to testify against AdolfEichmann, and Adolf Eichmann was
one of the masterminds behindthe final solution.
(38:52):
So probably not a decent guy,no, I mean.
Yeah, anyways, he's not thebest of us.
The problem, though, is whenD'Nor went to go testify against
him in 1961, he starts talkingabout him and he sees him Right,
and he faints, yeah, and it'sactually televised.
(39:15):
So he faints on live TV.
So he was in a 60 minutesbroadcast later, actually a
couple decades later, right.
And so the broadcaster wasasking him like what happened in
this moment, like what were youfeeling?
And it's crazy, what denoursays he says I was actually
afraid about myself.
I saw that I was capable to dothis, and the underlying thing
(39:40):
here is that he saw AdolfEichmann as a normal person,
just someone like you and me,and he has this realization, as
he's testifying Right, and hisfinal conclusion here is I am
exactly like he Meaning I'm ableto do the exact same kinds of
atrocities that Adolf Eichmanndid.
Liz (40:02):
Right.
Ben (40:03):
It's mind-blowing.
Mind-blowing we always think ofthe Nazis as kind of like this
extreme example, or at leastwe're not like the Nazis.
Liz (40:10):
Right.
Ben (40:10):
And here's someone who's gone through the concentration
camp, someone who has-.
Liz (40:15):
Who was a recipient of terrible crimes.
He has every right to think ofthis person as other than Right
right.
Ben (40:22):
And what does he do?
Liz (40:23):
He recognizes his own propensity to do something just
as atrocious His humanness.
Ben (40:35):
Crazy.
I think that is super importanta few decisions or a few
circumstances away from beingable to commit something so
crazy and realizing that we allneed a savior.
Liz (40:49):
Yes, I know, I need one.
Ben (40:51):
From the perceived worst of us to the perceived best of us.
We all are in the same boat,which is that we need help.
Liz (40:57):
So let's wrap this up, Ben.
Ben (40:59):
Some takeaways.
Let's go through some takeaways.
Liz (41:00):
All right, let's do it.
Ben (41:01):
Right, acknowledging that none of us are good, that we all
need a savior.
This is actually good news.
It's freeing, and this wholeconversation started with the
book the Truth About Us, andit's a brand handsome book, like
you mentioned Super great Ben'sfavorite.
My favorite author.
Liz (41:19):
I mean, it's just life changing really.
Ben (41:21):
And so this book, the Truth About Us, has all these points
in it, and we're just going tohit them real quick.
Liz (41:27):
And you're going to put a link in the notes.
Right, yeah, put a link in thenotes so that you can find it
Highly highly.
Highly recommend it, great book.
Ben (41:33):
He also wrote Unaffendable another one of my favorite,
all-time favorites.
But recognizing our addictionto feel morally superior,
there's actually kind of likealmost a drug type of addiction.
We get a dopamine hit.
The studies have shown we get adopamine hit when we're able to
justify ourselves especially ascompared to other people.
(41:53):
That is crazy, crazy, and sowe've got to get off that
addiction cycle and realize weall have the propensity to do
wrong.
That is crazy it is.
So get off of the at least Idon't cycle and get onto.
Hey, I am a sinner.
I need justification before theLord, just like the tax
collector.
It's a pathway to freedom.
(42:14):
It really is.
Admitting that we're not goodis a pathway to freedom.
We can stop the comparison game.
We can recognize that our valuedoesn't depend on our goodness.
It actually just depends onJesus's evaluation of us.
He thought we were worthyenough to die for, even in our
sinful state.
So our comparison doesn't needto start with well, I'm better
(42:37):
than this.
No, we have value because theLord loves us and died for us
and he created us ultimately.
So I mean we can find our valuein him versus in our own
morality, and I think that's sofreeing.
It gives us joy.
We don't have to defend our ownimage.
We don't have to, you know getin that cycle of moral
(42:57):
superiority and it'll actuallyhelp us to have more grace for
others and we'll be able to havebetter capacity for genuine
relationship where we're nottrying to judge one another.
Liz (43:06):
It's like looking through the right lens.
Ben (43:08):
It is.
Liz (43:09):
We need the right lens.
Ben (43:10):
We need that humble periscope to be able to see each
other.
Liz (43:13):
Yeah, and I'm just thinking how do we do it practically
Holy Spirit every day.
Ben (43:18):
Holy Spirit, lord, help me, give me clean hands and a pure
heart.
Liz (43:21):
Yes, yeah, yeah, 100%.
Keep me pliable, keep mepliable.
Ben (43:24):
And the scripture takeaway for today is the first scripture
that we talked about.
It's the tax collector and thePharisee oh yeah, but it sums up
.
Jesus sums it up in verse 14.
He says I tell you, this manwent down to his, his house,
justified rather than the other,for everyone who exalts himself
will be humbled, but the onewho humbles himself will be
(43:46):
exalted.
That's it.
I mean that's it.
We have to be humble, andespecially when it comes to our
own self-righteousness.
Liz (43:55):
Yep, it's good.
Well, what an episode.
Wow, we went over under, aroundand through to get this episode
done.
Tell you what, guys.
So hopefully this has been ablessing to you.
I know it's been a blessing tous discussing it and, of course,
listening to Brant Hansen'sbook while we were traveling.
That's how come we're doingthis episode, but we just want
to say thank you so much forbeing a part of our one blessed
(44:17):
mess, our one BM.
Right, ben?
That's right.
What do you say?
You say oh one BM.
Oh one BM.
Oh one BM Hour, one BM.
But don't forget to subscribeand like and share with a friend
who needs this encouragement,wherever you're listening from.
I'm not sure how, but give us acomment as well.
That helps us get the word out.
And follow us on Instagram orFacebook.
(44:38):
We have little pages there, andso we'd love to have you follow
us, and also we love hearingfrom you.
We've gotten quite a few DMsand it has been so encouraging.
Yes, very encouraging Because weare just.
We're not experts, we're justliving life.
We're bringing you in on theconversation.
What were you going to?
Ben (44:55):
say.
I said, hopefully we're humbleenough to admit that we need the
encouragement.
Yeah, it always comes at theright time.
Yeah, it does.
It's amazing.
Liz (45:04):
We always get it at the right time.
But anyway, we just want to saythank you for tuning in with us
and until next time, embraceyour beautiful mess, because if
our mess can be blessed, thenwhat, ben?
Then so can yours, that's right.
So can yours.
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