Ep. 15 - Family Digital Detox: Establishing Digital Boundaries & Restoring Human Connection - Our 1 Blessed Mess

Episode Transcript
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Liz (00:06):
Welcome to Our One Blessed Mess.
This is Ben and Liz, and we arehere telling our story of
raising six kids that we had ineight years, managing our
entrepreneurial home with twobusinesses, homeschooling, and
currently navigating life withfour teenagers, plus seven
chickens and two dogs, and we'regetting two goats.
So we do all that just to keepour life interesting, because

(00:29):
you know there's nothing goingon in our home, right?
Never Boring, all the time.
So today's conversation topic isabout what Ben?
We've got a big topic today.

Ben (00:40):
I've been looking forward to this topic probably since we
started our podcast.

Liz (00:45):
When we were getting ready for this, I was thinking this is
why we started this podcastthis is the big enchilada.

Ben (00:50):
Yeah, this is the big one.
This is the big one, the bigone, the BM.

Liz (00:54):
This is the big one.
This is our big BM.
This is our big BM.

Ben (00:57):
Oh my gosh, maybe we should change the name of this podcast
to Our Big BM Just kidding,kidding, kidding kidding, we
shouldn't leave them in suspensethis long well, it's gonna be,
it's gonna be really good it is.
It's gonna be good, it's gonnabe heavy.
I I would say buckle up, putyour seat belt on, because
buckle up buttercup.
We're gonna be hitting somepretty heavy stuff and it's
gonna be info intensive, but no,but it's gonna be good.

Liz (01:20):
We're gonna hit with some some goodness at the end.

Ben (01:22):
I think like we.
Yeah, we're going to make surewe get that spoonful of sugar.

Liz (01:26):
Yeah, the spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down, but
this is really good.
Again, whenever we're talkingabout these issues or
conversation topics, we'rereally just inviting all of you
into the conversation that we'rehaving.
That's right Into our own pain.
Into our own pain and if you'vebeen around us which we know we
have a lot of friends who watchthis we have brought this up in

(01:47):
conversation probably for thelast six months six to eight
months.
And so we're finally ready tobring it up with everybody else,
because it hurts so bad.

Ben (01:57):
It hurts so bad.
Yeah, we're going to talk abouta digital detox so I know that
that is becoming more and moreprevalent like that idea of
needing one and we're going totalk about kind of what we've
done as a family, but we're alsogoing to like juxtaposition it
with this concept of having faceto face interactions as well.

Liz (02:18):
Which is so fun you guys Like.
This is my favorite part out ofeverything we're talking about.

Ben (02:22):
Yeah, favorite part out of everything we're talking about?
Yeah, well, because we believethis kind of digital proclivity
that our society is movingtowards, or embraced, if you
will, where everything's movingto digital Right.
We feel like, in some ways,it's great.
It's good we can do a lot morethings, maybe at home and we can
do it more asynchronously.

Liz (02:41):
And AKA, you have more freedom.
But, there's actually somethings that you miss out on.
There are some massive thingsthat you miss out on.

Ben (02:50):
I would imagine most of us know that going through COVID we
were like well, hold on asecond.
Digital is great, but we kindof do need the in-person stuff.
I know I enjoy in-person, theface-to-face.

Liz (03:00):
The face-to-face that's right.
I enjoy that.
So, yeah, so, speaking of faceand you're looking at my face
I'm thinking about when ourchiropractor saw my face in a
place that he didn't ever thinkhe would see my face.

Ben (03:15):
He wasn't expecting the power of face-to-face when you
don't expect it in a certainplace.

Liz (03:20):
Right.
And he's probably going tolisten to this episode and laugh
his hiney off, because that's akey word hiney yeah.

Ben (03:29):
Yeah, that's a key, hiney, yeah.
So you bought me a special pairof underwear.

Liz (03:33):
Okay, so I bought Ben.
It was Valentine's Day.
I mean, what do you get a manthat you love except for
underwear that have your faceprinted on them, right?

Ben (03:43):
So naturally Not just one face like the pattern.
It was a pattern of Liz's facesall over my underwear.
That's what she gave me forValentine's Day.
I did, I've also done Got somesocks too.

Liz (03:51):
I've also done socks.

Ben (03:52):
Yeah.

Liz (03:53):
So anyway, I gave him this pair of underwear, more of like
a joke, like boxers or whatever,and the kids were roaring
laughing they thought butnaturally Ben doesn't let
anything great go to waste, sohe starts wearing these
underwear.
Well, I guess you were workingoutside.
I don't know what you weredoing.

Ben (04:10):
I had a rougher pair of shorts on.

Liz (04:13):
I think you could say yeah, and he had somehow ripped this
part in the back hind side.

Ben (04:19):
Yeah, in the hiney, in the hiney of his shorts.

Liz (04:22):
And you went to the chiropractor.

Ben (04:24):
Yeah, I went to the chiropractor that day.

Liz (04:26):
Well, first of all, why in the world were you wearing those
shorts to the chiropractor?

Ben (04:29):
I don't know, I'm not sure.

Liz (04:33):
It wasn't a date or anything like that.

Ben (04:34):
So I was just like I'm just going to wear my shorts, my
comfy shorts that have a hole inthem.

Liz (04:37):
Oh my gosh, Anyway, we not, you know, detract people, so
anyway.
So so he wears this pair ofshorts, and I mean the
chiropractor's adjusting you.

Ben (04:50):
Your face down yeah, my face down butts up in the air
like he's adjusting my back.
And all of a sudden he looksdown and he's like why do I see
liz's face in your butt?
It's like what is going on here?
Why are you, why is Liz's faceunderneath?

Liz (05:05):
your shorts, because he said, he saw like this eyeball
looking at him and he was like,wait a second, I know that
eyeball and he's like whoa.
Why is Liz looking at methrough your shorts?

Ben (05:14):
Yeah, so anyway, that's not the face-to-face conversations
that we're going to be talkingabout, but that is a funny story
by the way.

Liz (05:20):
I just have to say a plug.
By the way, I just have to saya plug, you should buy your
husband a pair of those shortboxers.

Ben (05:25):
With your face on it.

Liz (05:26):
Yeah, it's pretty fun, pretty fun so all right, so
that's kind of fun.

Ben (05:30):
But let's talk about this sense of digital, I guess,
addiction that we have as asociety, oh boy, I mean, we
could blame it on COVID, wecould blame it on tech companies
or social media or whatever,but I think, by and large, we
can just say that our culture ismoving more and more digital.

(05:53):
It's where we spend our time,it's where we connect with
people, it's just what grabs ourattention.
Right, and so it's the norm.
It is the norm, it's the norm,and you don't hear.
I mean, I guess you hear somerumblings about why it's maybe
problematic, but there aren'tvery good solutions.
I think, right, you just peopleexpress discontent with it.

(06:17):
But like, what do we have toreally use in our tool bag to
combat, like digital addictions.
Well, and families too BecauseSpecifically to families.

Liz (06:28):
Right, and we're going to get into the research and all
the things.
That is probably going to bloweverybody's hair back.

Ben (06:34):
Oh, it blows mine yeah.

Liz (06:35):
I mean, when we started digging into this, I remember we
were riding in the car on a wayback.
We're listening to a book ontape, naturally.
I think everybody's figuredthat out, that when we're in
long car rides we're listeningto audio books Right.
But as we were listening tothis information, I was getting
so angry.
I was like ready to throw myphone out the window because I

(06:56):
felt so duped.

Ben (06:58):
Right.

Liz (06:58):
I felt so duped, Yet at the same time it's like I kind of
knew these things, but I hadn'theard it or seen the research or
had the conversation withanyone about it.
And it's becoming more and moreprevalent.

Ben (07:12):
I mean you know, just in our.

Liz (07:14):
I mean, the topic is, and just in our research we're
seeing it.
You know, there's like YouTubevideos about it and there's
podcasts about it, and so we'rebasically just going to talk
about what we've discovered andhow to help families.

Ben (07:25):
Yeah, and again, we're not here to say drop your phone down
the toilet.
No, although I was ready tothrow mine out the window, but
again, I'm black and white.

Liz (07:34):
She is, and I'm very extreme.
She goes to the extreme.
I'm very extreme.

Ben (07:38):
And there's kind of a funny note back in history about a
people group called the Ludditeswho were around during the
Industrial Revolution in England, and so Ned Ludd was someone
who was very against technologyand specifically machines.

Liz (07:58):
What a name, ned Ludd.

Ben (08:00):
Ned Ludd what a name.
And so he galvanized a group ofpeople to fight this concept of
technology coming in.
So we're not going to beLuddites today.

Liz (08:09):
We're not going to say, hey , get rid of your phones,
although I probably would havebeen with Ned in my extremeness.
Like I'm so hot or cold, I'm acold.
There is no gray you would havejoined the Luddites, I probably
would have.

Ben (08:19):
Yeah, no worries.

Liz (08:21):
But I'm married to a techie .
I know I'm catching you.
I'm married to a techie.
So, you're on screens all daylong.

Ben (08:28):
Yeah, I can't be a Luddite.
I've got to figure out abalance.

Liz (08:30):
Yes, you do, but I think that's good.

Ben (08:31):
I think that's kind of where we want to go.
So what's the problem?
Anyways, right, maybe it's nota big deal.
I'd like to start with A groupof people called the Zizians.

Liz (08:42):
And they recently made headline news.
They did Not in a good way youmight have heard of them.
No, not in a good way.

Ben (08:47):
No, you might have heard of them, but I want to start with
this group of people.

Liz (08:52):
Cuckoo for cuckoo pups.
I'm sorry, I'm so, so sorry.
Just go.
Cuckoo for cuckoo pups.

Ben (08:58):
So the are a cult group, yep, and they were established
out in California, on the WestCoast.
They are a self-described groupof radically rational,
transhuman vegan Sithphilosophers.

Liz (09:15):
That is a mouthful.

Ben (09:18):
That is a mouthful.
How do you unpack that?
Well, a lot of it you unpackwith your imagination, because
that's essentially where thesepeople were drawing most of
their logic from was theirimagination.

Liz (09:28):
Yeah.

Ben (09:28):
But in real life they were social recluses who met online
and in extreme corners of theInternet.
A lot of them had technicalproficiency and they played a
lot of video games.
Majority of them were male, butthey considered themselves
transhuman not transgendertranshuman, which is interesting

(09:49):
and essentially they tried toform a community.

Liz (09:54):
Yep.

Ben (09:55):
Not only online.
It moved from online to inperson.
So they decided to cometogether and organize and create
a utopia, which, unfortunately,a lot of these stories kind of
have that as their storyline.
When they did, it spiraled intoparanoia, crime and eventually
murder.

Liz (10:15):
Yeah, they were cuckoo.

Ben (10:16):
They were.
They killed their landlord andthen they started going after
some of the parents of the group.

Liz (10:21):
Yeah.

Ben (10:22):
And there was one main kind of leader in it who espoused
some of the main kind ofdoctrine of the group.
Yeah, and there was one mainkind of leader in it who
espoused some of the main kindof doctrine of the group.
But the end result is that youhad a group of people who were
kind of social outcasts, if youwill, that found identity online
and spent the majority of theirtime online.
Right, and tried to form thatsame identity in person and it

(10:46):
just completely fell apart.
Right, they murdered theirlandlord, they killed a couple
of the parents that were andthey killed a boarding, a border
cross, that's true, the borderagent.

Liz (10:56):
Yeah, yeah, they killed a border agent, yeah.

Ben (10:58):
So these vegan Sith philosophers who are transhuman
and radically rational?

Liz (11:07):
No, they weren't, Were not.

Ben (11:09):
No, they weren't, they were actually crazy, and they spent
majority of their time online.
In fact, they formed theiridentity online and then tried
to bring that into the realworld.
There's another group of peoplethat I'd like to throw out as
well, and I'm going somewherewith this, so just hang on.
Hikikomori is a Japanese wordthat describes a recluse.

Liz (11:35):
This is crazy.
You guys Hold the phone, Justkeep listening.
So as crazy as the Zizians were, oh yeah.

Ben (11:42):
And they were caught.
Actually, I think they madeheadlines recently.
No, they weren't, they gotcaughtians were oh yeah, and
they were caught.
Actually, I think they madeheadlines recently.

Liz (11:45):
Like last month they got caught.
They were yeah.

Ben (11:48):
So the Hikikomori has been going on for some time.
It's crazy, but the Hikikomoriare individuals who are extreme
recluses.
They have isolation for morethan six months, human isolation
.
They often will live with aparent or a caretaker because
they don't work and they don'tgo to school.

(12:09):
In fact, they can't even bebothered sometimes to go out and
use the restroom.
They use a litter box, a humanlitter box.

Liz (12:17):
You guys, this is nuts.
We're going very extreme inthis, but there's a reason in it
, yeah.

Ben (12:23):
And there's not from what we can tell, tell from what
researchers can tell.
There's no other mental healthissues other than this extreme
form of isolation and what arethey doing the whole time then?

Liz (12:34):
what are they doing with their time?
What are they doing?

Ben (12:36):
can you guys guess?

Liz (12:37):
can you imagine?
Can you guess?

Ben (12:38):
they're spending it online on screens gaming completely,
completely isolating themselvesfrom physical contact.

Liz (12:47):
So much so that they're not even going to the restroom.
They're going to the restroomin a human litter box.

Ben (12:52):
So how does this stuff happen?
How does this stuff like theZizian or the Hikikomori happen?
It's not just in a bubble, it'snot just in a vacuum.

Liz (13:00):
Nope, it begins somewhere.

Ben (13:03):
There is the ability for these people to not form
traditional historicalidentities and instead form them
through digital means.
Right and I think I said all ofthat to say this, we read a
book called the AnxiousGeneration, written by a he's

(13:27):
not a clinical psychologist.

Liz (13:29):
He's a research psychologist, Right right.

Ben (13:32):
And it was like a red pill moment for us when we realized,
wow, we've done a lot of thingswrong.
Right, we've done some thingsright, but we've done some
things wrong.
Right, we've done some thingsright, but we've done some
things wrong.
And the proclivities of our Iguess our teens and our children
to jump into the digital spaceso quickly and then be so

(13:58):
addicted is what shocked us.

Liz (14:00):
Right Brain science.
All I've got to say isaddiction, brain science,
dopamine, yes.
So tell them the name of theauthor.
His name is Jonathan Haidt.

Ben (14:11):
Jonathan Haidt.

Liz (14:11):
Yeah, jonathan Haidt, and it's called the Anxious
Generation.

Ben (14:15):
The Anxious Generation.
It's worth a read.
I highly highly recommend it.
And essentially it comes downto this we are leveraging our
kids' upbringing with time spenton digital devices.
The average teenager and thisis from Pew Research finding in
2015, spends about seven hours aday on screens, not doing

(14:41):
schoolwork or homework.
This is seven hours ofentertainment.
And then, in 2022, the numberof teens who reportedly using
screens almost constantly was46%.
So almost half almost half ofour teenagers are literally
never taking a break from theirscreens.

Liz (15:02):
All day long it's within reach all the time, all the time
, every waking moment, theirbrains are addicted to it.

Ben (15:08):
Can you just let's just stop there for a second.
Can you imagine?
Our childhood being that,growing up like that.

Liz (15:15):
I cannot.
I mean, I have memories ofbeing thrown outside many, many
days.

Ben (15:19):
I'm being too loud Because we were so loud.

Liz (15:22):
We were four girls plus a boy and we had lots of energy,
big imaginations I mean huge.
We did watch TV on Saturdaymornings.
We had.
Saturday morning cartoons, andoccasionally, if our homework
was done by a certain time, wecould turn on afternoon cartoons
.
But other than that, and wewatched like Little House on the
Prairie and things.
And maybe on the weekends, whenthe Disney Channel came out, we

(15:43):
would watch different things.

Ben (15:45):
So you're saying you weren't a video gamer?

Liz (15:46):
No, we weren't, but we did have an Atari Wow.
Yeah, I remember the.
Atari yes, and my brother hadthe Atari and I think we got a
Nintendo at some point.
But again, you know, theinternet came out when I was a
teenager.
So, like that kind of stuff.

Ben (16:03):
Yeah, yeah, it was foreign to us and I remember playing
video games as a kid, but therewas always a definite end.
Right, and you would get boredLike it was just a it stopped.

Liz (16:12):
You want to go outside and play with your friends.
And then you did something else.
Well, you would.
You would beat the game.

Ben (16:16):
Yes, yeah, you moved on.

Liz (16:18):
I mean, I remember Nintendo .
My cousin had and had aNintendo and it was like the
duck one with the gun.
Yeah, and then of coursethere's Super Mario and we would
beat it all the time becauseyou learned all the little
secrets and then you know it wasover and we were over.
It wasn't like this continualconstant, never dying, going,
going, going all the time.

Ben (16:37):
Right right, right, right yeah.

Liz (16:41):
Yeah, and there wasn't social media back then.
Oh no, there wasn't, we didhave slam books which I've
talked about in another episode,and what my nickname was.
Oh yeah.
And I did get some DMs on mynickname, so thank you for
paying attention.

Ben (16:52):
That's amazing.
So let's specifically talkabout social media, just for a
second.
The way that adolescence hasalways kind of interfaced with
local communities.
According to Jonathan Hite, theauthor of this book has been
through two different thingsprestige and conformity and so

(17:14):
what he means by that is like askids grow up and they model the
behavior around them.
That is conformity.
They see what's being done, theysee what is normative, what is
normal, and they model thatbehavior Right.
And then there was anotheraspect of that, which is the
prestige.
And so as you saw the localcommunity around you, you saw

(17:36):
who had maybe the most prestigemaker the baker.

Liz (17:43):
Yes all of those You're watching, or the mayor of the
town, or whatever, or, the mayorof the town and you're thinking
that's what I want to do,that's what I want to be.

Ben (17:50):
Yeah, he had influence, right, and you looked up to that
person, right.
That would eventually lead toapprenticeship and or could lead
to apprenticeship.
But that was basically the twokind of behavioral reinforcement
aspects of being in a communityis that you conformed, you took
on the behavior of thecommunity and you looked up to
prestigious members of thatcommunity and then modeled

(18:12):
behavior.
After that.
It could even be leading toapprenticeship.

Liz (18:15):
Right.

Ben (18:16):
So one of the things that social media does, according to
Jonathan Haidt, is we tradethose local sources of prestige
and conformity and we switch itwith what teens and adolescents
are seeing in social media.

Liz (18:32):
So that is what they're conforming to.

Ben (18:35):
Exactly.

Liz (18:36):
Right Because and these are like superstars, Right I mean,
for the longest time our kidswanted to be Mr Beast, yeah.
I mean, for the longest timeour kids wanted to be Mr Beast.
Yeah, and because I mean MrBeast is cool, right?
Right yeah.
Now they want to be do perfect.

Ben (18:52):
Sure.

Liz (18:52):
Yeah, but that's very minute.

Ben (18:54):
And those are tame.

Liz (18:56):
Those are tame.

Ben (18:57):
Influencers.

Liz (18:57):
Right Influencers, right, those are on YouTube.

Ben (18:59):
You guys can think of some ones that aren't tame.

Liz (19:01):
Right, and those are very niche.
Yes, so I know where you'regoing with this, so go ahead, go
on.

Ben (19:15):
So what the deal is is like the social media models.
They reinforce behavior thatbecomes incentivized and popular
through likes and shares, andyou know how the algorithms work
.
I don't have to explain it toyou, but the concept of adapting
and conforming to behavior onsocial media is not always a
one-to-one what we want in ourkids, especially as it relates
to just being in localcommunities and families, right
there's behavior that's popularon social media because it

(19:38):
stands out from what you can getaway with in real life.

Liz (19:41):
Are you thinking about when they did the bucket challenge?

Ben (19:44):
Well, the bucket challenge is pretty tame, but I'm thinking
of even like some crazy thingswhere they were doing that
knockout game.

Liz (19:49):
Oh yeah, that was crazy.
Running up behind people andtrying to hit them in the head
and that's an extreme form of it.

Ben (19:54):
But the concept is is like we're incentivizing behavior
that is viral, Right, but wedon't necessarily want it to be
conformed right.
We don't want our kids to takeon that Just because it's viral
doesn't mean it's something thatwe should conform to as a
community, especially our teens.
And then also the prestigemodel too the kids that are

(20:15):
engaging in social media at ayoung age are seeing this and
thinking, wow, that person'sfamous, I want to be like them,
instead of how it's been forgenerations and generations.

Liz (20:25):
Which is modeling that prestige based behavior seen in
the communities Right, andwhat's interesting is it's
really based in an algorithm.
Yeah.
Like there's probably botaccounts or bots, sure, not just
like you paid for it.
I mean, there's so muchcorruption, even in how things
become viral and all that kindof stuff, and so yeah, yeah.

Ben (20:46):
These kids.
It's fake, right?
A lot of it is A lot of it isfake, or a lot of it's overblown
, or it's even behavior thatjust wouldn't fly in face to
face.

Liz (20:57):
Yeah, it would never fly like that.
Like they're saying thingsdoing things that you could not
do in person.
Sure, they're saying thingsdoing things that you could not
do in person.
Sure, they would never do, sure.

Ben (21:04):
Right.
And another thing about allthis is the fact that it's all
about the attention right whenthese social media platforms are
created and then driven toprofit.
Right.
There is brain science thatgoes into keeping individuals as

(21:24):
long as possible engaged in theplatform People.

Liz (21:28):
First of all, we need to take a deep breath.
Everybody just take a deepbreath.

Ben (21:31):
I know it's heavy and we know we're talking fast because
we're excited about it.
Yeah, we're excited about it.

Liz (21:35):
But if you can capture this for just a second, they are
paying people to watch us andfigure out how to get us
addicted to social media orgames To stay on the platform.
To stay on the platforms.
We are the product, we're theproduct.

Ben (21:53):
Jonathan Haidt talks about a variable ratio schedule, and
so in psychology, that isessentially a mechanism that
reinforce, one of the mostpowerful mechanisms that
reinforces behavior.
And I meant to start out with aquestion.
Actually I'm kind of jumpingahead.
I meant to say what do slotmachines, social media and video

(22:17):
games have in common?
Wow, is that like your big?

Liz (22:20):
question.

Ben (22:20):
That was that.
Yeah, and the payoff was avariable ratio schedule.
But I jumped to that.
See, I'm so excited, I'm likeI'm just jumping to the thing
already.

Liz (22:27):
You've been preparing for this for a long time.
Yeah, I've been digging in fora long time, so anyways, that
was the lead in.
Okay, let's talk about that slotmachine, let's talk about the
video games.
Let's talk about social media,because you and I were talking
about this before we jumped onhere and just, and you know,
just you think I mean Iliterally saw something that
someone sent to me of a woman.

(22:48):
The casino was, it was raining,stuff was falling down, there's
like electricity popping, andshe's sitting at.

Ben (22:57):
Oh yeah, the slot machine.
The slot machine.
It was like a flood right.
Yeah, I don't know what she?
Was doing.

Liz (23:03):
And I'm like, oh my gosh.
Somebody needs to send thiswoman this episode.
But you know what?
We look at that and we go gosh.
It's so extreme.
But how many of us are hidingin our home late at night until
two in the morning doomscrolling right it's the same
concept the video games.
Yeah.
I mean there are camps forpeople to go to to be detox,

(23:25):
detox from their addiction, toscreen.

Ben (23:28):
OK, so this is real.

Liz (23:31):
This is very real.

Ben (23:31):
You might be thinking OK, really, guys like slot machines,
how that have in common withsocial media or video games?
Let's break it down real quick.
So the concept is a variableratio.
Schedule is when you do anaction over and over and you get
a reward, but it's not tied inwith anything specific.
There is just a randomizationto the behavior and the reward

(23:54):
is what's randomized and itreinforces that behavior.
So the concept in psychology islike this is one of the most
powerful mechanisms to continueon a specific behavior guessing
so this is this.
This is employed in social media, in games and, obviously, in
slot machines, so that we willcontinue to come back to it.

(24:14):
And it's been proven through uhstudies with animals.
It's been proven in studieswith people.
It's just one of the ways thatour brain works and we get that
little dopamine hit right whenwe see a like or we see someone
comment on our post, and so wekeep checking, and then the next
time we check again was there anew like.

Liz (24:33):
Was there a new stuff?
Maybe not.

Ben (24:35):
Okay, well then I'm going to check it again.
Oh wait, there's more, there'snew stuff, there's likes,
there's that little reward thatsometimes is there, sometimes in
it, and so it forces us tocontinually check, to
continually be engaged.

Liz (24:46):
Which is anxiety?
It keeps you guessing.
You never have peace.
Sure, You're constantlychecking, checking checking,
checking.
Especially if you're addicted.
Right Exactly.

Ben (24:55):
Yeah.

Liz (24:55):
It's an addiction.

Ben (24:56):
Yeah, it's a form of addiction, just like a gambling
addiction.
The scary thing is, though, isthat when we let our kids have
unmitigated access to socialmedia or immersive gaming and we
can explain how that works ingaming too.
It's a lot of the newer typegames where there's random
rewards and things and prestigemodels that are built into the
games.
It's not just your console gamesfrom yesteryear, this is like

(25:18):
newer stuff, where they'reemploying these type of variable
reward schedules to get youhooked and come back to see
something new.
So this kind of stuff, whenwe're giving it to our kids,
it's like telling them to goplay slots and them not having
the maturity to regulatethemselves.
That's why we're so passionateabout this kind of thing.

Liz (25:36):
Well, and their brains haven't developed Right, they're
still developing and they'regetting those grooves in their
brain, those nerve paths and soand they're getting that
addiction to the dopamine andtell okay.
So when they looked at brains Iwas gonna say you tell it but I
can say when they looked atbrains of 10 year olds who were
gaming on screens we'll just sayon screens and then they looked

(25:58):
at crack addicts who wereadults, and they looked at the
crack addicts and they looked atthe kids.
Their brains looked the sameunder the microscope.

Ben (26:08):
These are heavy gamers, heavy gamers, heavy gamers that
are addicted.

Liz (26:10):
Heavy gamers addicted, okay .
And then I'm sorry I'm going alittle bit off, but we've seen
it in our own kids.
When we took devices away, itwas like rage.
Rage quitting.

Ben (26:22):
Yes, holy moly, another reaction right that you would
see with taking substances awayfrom drug addicts.
Right If you take games awayfrom kids, teens, who are
addicted?
Or kids or social media orphones or whatever it is, you'll
get that same reaction.
It's like a rage.
It's them wanting to get thataddictive behavior back or an

(26:46):
addictive product back intotheir system.
It's a dopamine and yeah.
So what you're saying is likewe're, we're basically playing
with addictions if we allowunmitigated access.
And again, hear us out.
We're not saying we wanteverybody to throw away their
phones.
We want everybody to just quitsocial media full, full stop.
Well, what we're saying?
We want everybody to throw awaytheir phones.
We want everybody to just quitsocial media full, stop.
Well, what we're saying?

Liz (27:06):
is.
I kind of want to, but I'mtrying to.
Ben keeps that pendulum in themiddle.
Here we go.
Here comes the extreme.
Sorry, you guys.
The Luddite we're going to callyou a Luddite from here on.
A Lizite.

Ben (27:15):
Liz Lizite, luddite.
So we're saying is if we're notcareful, it's like sending our
kids to the slot machine, as ateen thinking that they can beat
this.
And then at the same time, Iwant to stop with what you said.
You said wearing those neuralsynapses, those grooves in our

(27:39):
brain.
That's important, because whatJonathan Haidt talks about in
his book is that it's not somuch that it's so bad that we do
this period, it's when we do it.
When we let kids do it whentheir brain is still in the
formative years there are neuralsynapses that become trimmed
and there's pathways that becomereduced, and that's part of

(28:01):
growing up.
It's actually we actually havemore synapses when we're younger
than when we're older.
And what happens?
Is it prunes.
And so he talks about thispruning period between about, I
think it's 10 to 15, wherethat's some of the most
dangerous times to let addictivebehavior become normal for our
kids.

Liz (28:20):
Because they cannot break it.

Ben (28:21):
Because that becomes their sense of normal, yeah, and their
brain it wears those groovesBecause they cannot break it.
Because that becomes theirsense of normal, yeah, and their
brain it wears those grooves.

Liz (28:28):
And then you have to work on brain health, you have to
work on reprogramming yeah, sothen you're working against what
they think is normal as anadult, to try to come out of
that.

Ben (28:37):
So it's really important that we set up and make sure
that we've got some limitingfactors in it so that we don't
just play with fire in some ofthese addictive behaviors.
So let's just jump into some ofthe effects of a screen-based
childhood, right, we talkedabout some of the ways that it
can hijack your brain, but let'sgo into some of the studies

(28:58):
that have been shown and wherewe're kind of at as a society
all right own, and where we'rekind of at as a society All
right.
And let's start with the factthat 40% of American children
under 13 have created anInstagram or Facebook account.

Liz (29:13):
I really made Ben look this up.
When he came to me with thisstat.
I said now stop for just asecond, and he pulled it all up.
We read the article.
It is so that is so intense tome.

Ben (29:23):
Well, why is it intense?
It's intense because you'resupposed to be 13 or older to
actually create accounts withthese online companies.

Liz (29:32):
And I think what makes me upset is there's stuff all over
the place, right, and so you getinto a trap of an algorithm and
it keeps feeding you the junk.
And Instagram doesn't knowyou're a kid no, no, no, it
should.
The junk, yeah.
And Instagram doesn't knowyou're a kid no, no, no, you
know.
And it should.

Ben (29:47):
It should, yeah, but our laws are set up in a way that
they're so easy to get aroundRight.
All you have to do is literallyclick a checkbox.
I'm a web developer and youknow it's very easy to do this
little form Right.
And to get past that form, youliterally just say yeah, I
self-identify as being olderthan 13.
40% of American children under13 are doing this.

(30:09):
They're getting around thesafeguard that we have set up as
a society, and the long-termeffects of kids being on social
media before age 13 is reallyscary.
In fact, the latest researchbasically asserts that children
who are the heaviest users ofiPhones tend to be the most

(30:31):
depressed, whereas kids whospend more time face-to-face
activities, such as on sportsteams or in religious
communities, are the healthiestmentally.
So that's just iPhone uses ingeneral All right mentally.
So that's just iPhone uses ingeneral, all right.
And then, when we start talkingabout social media heavy usage,
like the depression rates go upeven more.
Yep, but what's really crazythis is the stat that got me is

(30:56):
depression has become two and ahalf times more prevalent for
teens age 12 through 17 sincebefore the 2010s, and we all
know what happened in the 2010s.
That's when the iPhoneproliferation came.
That's when social media came,became mainstream.

Liz (31:13):
That's when the camera was facing Yep and the camera facing
camera Facing camera, and so wejust transformed as a society.

Ben (31:20):
We cared a lot more about our digital appearance and our
digital identity, and this ledto some negative outcomes health
massive, massive, and we'reseeing it in just our small
little world.

Liz (31:34):
We are I mean, is it okay to share this part now?

Ben (31:38):
yeah, I think so okay.

Liz (31:40):
So I mean just recently, um , you know, we found out that um
somebody in our community, uh,their daughter has been doing
self harm.
She's on social media andgaming all the time.
I mean immediately.
When we heard that, the firstthing Ben and I were saying is

(32:00):
we know why?

Ben (32:02):
It's obvious to us, it might not be obvious to her
parents but it's obvious to us.

Liz (32:06):
But we see this individual has been in our home and we see
the red flags.
We also somebody that that thisis very sad, but somebody that
I used to babysit long, longtime ago and, um, he was gaming
and he gained for three or fourdays straight without sleep.
It's like days right and, um, hehad just had a breakup with his

(32:31):
girlfriend.
Um, because he was a gamer andhe gamed all the time and he was
in his you know, he was young,20 something and basically
online gaming, and whomever hewas talking to was this, I think
, this kid up in Canada.
And as they were communicating,the kid was like well, you
should just take your life righthe.

Ben (32:51):
He was explaining about his breakup.

Liz (32:53):
Yeah, and he said that and unfortunately he did Right.
And now his dad is a massiveadvocate.
He's been on TV programs, he'strying to get legislation passed
in our state.
Like there's all this stuffgoing on and it makes me want to
cry.
Yeah.
And then recently.

Ben (33:12):
Real recently.

Liz (33:12):
Real.
Recently in our community wejust had a young gentleman who
took his life.

Ben (33:17):
He was being bullied online and in person.

Liz (33:19):
And it was social media, yeah, and also gaming, sure, and
I mean just unhealthy.

Ben (33:25):
And he quit school.
Right, he quit school, yes.

Liz (33:27):
And the thing is, you guys, it's like this is our world and
we have a very small.
I could cry over this.
Yeah, we have a very smallcommunity, right.
You know, we're not in front ofthe masses.
Yeah, we're not a big city, no,no.
And so that's touched us.
Yeah, you know.

Ben (33:43):
Yeah.

Liz (33:44):
And you may be aware of it, in your community or your
family may be touched bysomething like this, and so we
feel like it's an epidemic,right, and we want to sound the
alarm, because there's a lot ofpeople, who are all different
places in life, that listen tothis podcast.
Yeah, and if you've got youngkids, we really want to send a

(34:04):
warning that there is a betterway.
And if you have kids that are,you know, teens like ours and
you're like, ok, wait, we got toturn a corner and put on the
brakes.
We're going to give somepracticals in a little bit,
because we've had to do that inour family and we've not been
perfect in this, we'll be thefirst ones to tell you this, but
we have turned a corner and weare seeing better fruit in our
family and the health, themental health, in our kids.

Ben (34:26):
Yes, yeah, 100%, and just real quick.
There's two more stats 167%increase in suicide rates for
girls between the ages of 10 and14 from between 2010 and 2021.
So between that timeframe therehas been I'll repeat it 167

(34:50):
increase in suicide rates forgirls, specifically For boys,
it's 91%.
So it's a little better for boys, but there's still this massive
jump.
And if you look at the data andJonathan Haidt has he's gone
back decade over decade and heactually saw a decrease right
before the 2010s and then amassive uptick.
And so, yes, it's corollary,but this happened not only in

(35:14):
the US, but in several Westernnations that all got the same
access to the technology, sametechnology, right around the
same time.
It's really the only thing thatwe can isolate to say like, hey
, this event happened and nowwe're seeing the same thing in
all these Western countries.

Liz (35:31):
Yes.

Ben (35:32):
Another thing is we're also seeing self-harm
hospitalizations for girls ages10 through 14 from the 2010
period to the 2021.

Liz (35:41):
Right.

Ben (35:42):
Increased by 188%.

Liz (35:45):
Huge, almost a 200% increase.
Huge.

Ben (35:47):
For boys it's much smaller.
It's 50% increase, but it'sstill non-negligible.

Liz (35:53):
Increasing Right.
Yeah, that's a pretty big jump.
It's still increasing.

Ben (35:55):
And it's the same timeframe and we believe it's the same
issue.
Right, it's this digitalproclivity, it's this digital
addiction, it's this digitalonline forming.

Liz (36:07):
Right.

Ben (36:07):
And it's scary.
There's actual things that arehappening.
We've noticed it in our ownkids not to this extreme,
obviously, but we've seen itevery time.
I mean it's like even as aparent, and when you go to a
restaurant or you're walking atthe park or shoot.
I mean we were even in.
Disney World just a couple ofweeks ago.
Yeah, we saw it there and seeingkids just blank out and focus

(36:32):
on the screen and just kind ofbe dead to the rest of the world
that they're in.
There's just something thatlike grieves you when you see
that you just think this can'tbe the way that we flourish as
humans, right Like there'ssomething wrong with this and
the scary thing, we'll just moveon real quick.
The scary thing for us, too, isknowing that as parents, we

(36:57):
model that behavior.

Liz (36:58):
Yes, okay, so they learned it somewhere.

Ben (37:00):
Yeah, they've got it.
They've got to figure out thatlooking at a screen.

Liz (37:02):
Are we allowed it?
Are we allowed it?
Yeah, Is normal somehow.

Ben (37:07):
And you know.
Just a little bit of researchon that perspective is there was
a 2014 survey so this is prettyold of 6 to 12-year-olds
conducted by Highlights Magazine.
So that was a magazine I usedto get as a kid growing up.

Liz (37:22):
We still get it, you just don't know it.
Oh, we do.
Yeah, it's okay.

Ben (37:26):
Well, so anyways, they found that parents were often
distracted when the child triesto talk to them, and the major
reason why was cell phones cellphones being used In 2020,.
A Pew survey found that 68% ofparents say they sometimes or

(37:47):
often feel distracted by theirphones when spending time with
their children.

Liz (37:51):
So they're looking for the notification, they want the
dopamine hit.
They're not present.
Yeah, I mean it could beaddiction or just could be just
bad hygiene.
Boredom, boredom, you know.

Ben (38:00):
But kids are taking notice of parents' uses of technology.
Oh yeah, so that's significantright, because, as the parents,
we model the right behavior.
So we can sit here and say,well, it's just a societal
problem, but honestly, I thinkit's an us problem.
I think it starts in the family, Right?
We've got to have betterHygiene, hygiene.

Liz (38:21):
Digital hygiene yeah.

Ben (38:26):
So just a few years ago, there was a cultural
anthropologist named CareAnderson and she was so, on this
point, Okay, this is a prettycrazy point that Ben's about to
make, so everybody take a deepbreath.

Liz (38:44):
Speaking of Disney World.

Ben (38:45):
I know I'm going to take a drink.

Liz (38:46):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, take a deep breath.
Take a deep breath Because,yeah, this is pretty nutso, this
anthropologist.

Ben (38:55):
So Disney hired Kara Anderson to conduct some
research for them, and theywanted to know what most
captured the attention oftoddlers and infants at their
theme park in Orlando.

Liz (39:08):
It's crazy, crazy so.

Ben (39:11):
Kara and her team set up crazy.
So karen, her team set up, andafter a couple hours of close
observation this is her words werealized that most what most
captured young children'sattention wasn't disney conjured
magic in the theme parks.
Instead, it was their parentscell phones, especially when the
parents were using them crazy.

(39:31):
Those kids clearly understoodwhat held their parents'
attention.
Yep, and they wanted it too.
Cell phones were enticingaction centers of their worlds.
As they observed it, whenparents were using their phones,
they were not paying completeattention to their children.
This is in Disney World y'all.
This is in the happiest placeof the earth, apparently.

Liz (39:52):
Or you can get Mickey Mouse ice creams.

Ben (39:54):
You can get the Mickey Mouse ears ice creams Everybody
loves those, right, yeah?
So the conclusion was ifbasically giving undivided
attention is the first and mostbasic ingredient in any
relationship, and it's modeledeven at an early age, you can
see it in kids and toddlers andchildren.
So what's the fix for this, liz?

(40:14):
I mean, this is a lot of heavynews, it's a lot of intense
statistics, very, and don't takeour word for it.
I mean, go do some research.

Liz (40:23):
Yeah.

Ben (40:24):
I would love for you guys to go read the Anxious
Generation.
That is such.
It was such a moment for usgoing through that.

Liz (40:30):
How many times have you read it, Ben?

Ben (40:38):
I think I've read it twice, at least twice, and then you've
gone back and read yeah, thenI've gone back and done some
research with it, but it again,it was like our red pill moment
on the matrix it was like oureyes were open, we were like
holy moly and, on the attentioneconomy thing, like realizing
that the relationship that Ihave with social media and the
attention that I give it.
That is what the app is for.
It's actually to get myattention so that it can be sold

(40:58):
to the highest bidder.
So it's like I'm almost like adigital slave.
I know that's a really intenseword to use, but it's like,
since I'm addicted to giving myattention every moment, every
interaction, every checking, andevery interaction, every

(41:19):
checking and interact.
Whatever that gets fed into thesystem, Ads get directed to me
based on the attention that I'mgiving it.
I'm literally the product beingsold to advertisers.

Liz (41:24):
Exactly, you are the product.

Ben (41:26):
I am the product.

Liz (41:27):
Yep.

Ben (41:28):
So that was pretty heavy.
I was like man, we got to makesome decisions.
Oh, we did.
We made some big decisions, wedid man, we got to make some.

Liz (41:35):
Oh, we did.
We made some big decisions.
We did, we, we turned somecorners and took some phones
away, and we did.
And we'll get into that too.

Ben (41:39):
But and I want to.
I want to like not jump aheadto all of the all the safeguards
that we did, but I also want totalk a little bit about what we
give up when we are doing kindof this digital.
This is so good.

Liz (41:53):
If we can, I mean he's going to get into this obviously
been very teachery in thisepisode.
But is that a word, teachery?
Sure, I made it up, okay, um,but you know, this is this part
that we're about to get into isthe good part.
Like listen to the good part.
We just gave a lot of facts.
There's a lot of sad thingsthat even my heart right now is

(42:14):
just sad over.
Right.
But this is the part.
That's the good part, yeah, andthis is why we are shouting it.

Ben (42:22):
This is what we're excited about.

Liz (42:23):
Yeah, this is what we're excited about, but this is why
we're shouting it from therooftop.

Ben (42:26):
Yes.

Liz (42:27):
Because we want families, we want couples, we want humans,
we want humans, we wantindividuals.

Ben (42:38):
We want single people to get this, because if you can get
this, take this red pill with aspoonful of sugar, and this is
the sugar part.

Liz (42:43):
But if you can take this, then it will change your life.

Ben (42:47):
I think so.
It literally will change yourlife.
It's had some pretty incredibleimpacts just between us.

Liz (42:52):
I know it's so fun.
Yeah, okay, let's get into it,because this is good.

Ben (42:56):
We're going to get into it.
So what do you miss out whenyou are mostly interacting with
humans on a digital level?

Liz (43:02):
Your face.

Ben (43:04):
Like the face that my chiropractor saw in my shorts.
That was my face, Okay, Notthat.
So face-to-face, face-to-faceinteraction what do weface
interaction Like?
What do we give up?
What were we lacking duringCOVID?
Why was there like even duringCOVID there?
Was anxiety rates that werespiking right Because we were
missing out on in-personembodied interaction.

Liz (43:25):
What is that word, Ben, that you like Synchronized?

Ben (43:28):
Synchronous.

Liz (43:29):
Synchronous.
That's it, synchronouscommunication.
So face to face.

Ben (43:33):
So we did a little research and I read a book.
A good friend of minerecommended it.
What's the name of the book?
The name of the book isRenovated, right, and in it the
author covers brain science,about identity formation, and he
also talks about theology,right, but this concept called

(43:54):
mutual mind came up, and inpsychology I think you call it
intersubjectivity but mutualmind.
I'll give a demonstration.
When I look at my wife.

Liz (44:06):
Here we go, you guys.
Okay, I'm going to have to turnand look at him.
All right.
Now, this is I want here.
I want you to hand me the cupof coffee, because this is what
it looks like in the morningbecause he makes my coffee in
the morning and he's like saygood morning.

Ben (44:18):
Good morning.

Liz (44:19):
And then you'll say look, at me.
I'm like yes, hi, let me take asip of my coffee first.

Ben (44:24):
And so I look at Liz in the mornings and I give it a couple
seconds, give it a couple beats, and normally she gives me a
smile yeah, give it a couplebeats and normally she gives me
a smile.

Liz (44:37):
And what happens?
Naturally, when I see you smile, I ask you if you brushed your
teeth.
No, you ruined it.
Sorry, that's what we're aboutto kiss.
Yeah, I'm just looking at youhere.

Ben (44:44):
Okay, okay, so what happens is your face lights up what
happens to my face.

Liz (44:48):
Your face lights up, my face lights up.

Ben (44:50):
It's almost a subconscious thing.
When we see people smile at us,the natural result is the smile
, sometimes even giggle.
I just did it right there.
You shot me a funny face and Istarted giggling.
Okay, what's happening there?

Liz (45:03):
Can we do that again?
I just love it.
It's actually good and I justhave to.
I know Ben's going to give thebreakdown of what's happening,
but even we had some people comeover today and there were some
things that I needed to do andget ready and I was like you
know, because we have an army ofkids, I have to bark orders.
You know, okay, you do this now, you do this, and they do it,

(45:24):
they all do it right.
But I was like in go mode andyou stopped and you looked at me
and you go, look at my face.
And I was like this is not thetime to look in your face.
But then he looked at me and Ilooked at you and then it was
like any bit of stress that Ihad about getting the house
ready was like who cares, itjust settled me.
The power of mutual mind.
The power of mutual mind.

Ben (45:45):
So what is mutual mind?
Are we just crazy wackos?

Liz (45:47):
talking about this thing.

Ben (45:48):
We are we just smile at each other and giggle.
There's brain science.
There's actually some brainscience going on, all right.
So this is within the lastcouple of decades.
I think the concept's beenaround since the 70s or maybe in
60s.
But some of the latest findingsthat reinforce this concept of
mutual mind or, in psychology,intersubjectivity, is really

(46:09):
fascinating and I want to breakit down real quick.
But essentially, what it meansmutual mind is when we are fully
present with another person andthere is a shared, synchronous
attention and emotional statesthat are happening.
So brain synapses, even brainchemicals, are starting to

(46:29):
become synchronized, and it'sall happening as we look fully
in each other's faces, as wenotice details about what we're
saying, and there's two tracksthat process what's happening.
There's a slow track andthere's a fast track.
The fast track is actually someof the more powerful and it's

(46:53):
almost subconscious.
So when I look at Liz in theface and I smile, there's almost
a mirroring quality thathappens and I'm not thinking to
myself oh she's smiling, so Imust smile.
My logic center is not doingthe calculations of making my
face smile and reflecting herface.
There's something almostsubconscious happening.

(47:15):
That's the fast track.
It's when we synchronize withall the subtleties of someone's
face or the voice and we'refully present, we're fully
embodied, we're using ourfaculties.
There's a subconscioussynchronization that actually
works faster than our prefrontalcortex.

Liz (47:35):
Right.

Ben (47:35):
So this stuff happens in the amygdala and the subcortical
structures.
It's like I said, it's asubconscious level and it's
designed so that we can evenrespond quickly to threats Like
think about it If you seesomeone whose face is contorted
and angry and look like they'recoming at in.

(47:56):
it almost bypasses yourprefrontal cortex, your logic

(48:17):
center, and it's a reactionaryresponse based on your brain
processing what you see in thatother person and what their
emotional and their attitudinalstate is towards you.
So I'm saying all this to saythat we don't get this fast
track processing when we spendtime digitally connected to one

(48:40):
another?

Liz (48:40):
No, we do not.
In fact, you get the decreaseof that.
Right and you get depressed youget the slow track.

Ben (48:45):
And you get anxiety, you get the slow track which is
basically our logic center,processing responses in an
asynchronous fashion.
Typically.
I think that's where you'regoing right, Right.
So like an interaction online,like, let's say, I write a post
to someone.

Liz (49:00):
Right.

Ben (49:01):
I don't know what they're thinking or feeling at that time
.
I'm just guessing based on thewords that I'm reading on a
screen.
Even if they like something orshare something, even if I'm
able to see them in a video clip, I'm not experiencing a
synchronous relationship withthem.

Liz (49:18):
Right.

Ben (49:18):
It's after the fact.

Liz (49:20):
Right.

Ben (49:20):
And I'm not able to share in the moment with that person.
So most of our digitalinteractions are asynchronous
slow track processing.
We miss out on this fast trackin our brains.
The beauty of mutual mind isthat we use both of these two

(49:42):
systems together the fast trackand the slow track when we
communicate and when we shareexperiences with one another,
and so the only way you canreally do that is a physical
presence with someone else.

Liz (49:55):
Embodied opportunities.
Embodied synchronousinteractions, interactions you
need it, we all need it.
It's so healthy.
It is it's so healthy.

Ben (50:04):
There's actually a feedback loop.
That happens when I'm lookingat Liz and I'm smiling, oh Lord,
you guys.

Liz (50:09):
Welcome to my world Feedback loop.
And I'm smiling at Liz and I'msmiling, oh Lord, you guys.
Welcome to my world.

Ben (50:12):
Feedback loop and I'm smiling at her as he's been
learning these things for thelast couple of months.

Liz (50:15):
I'm like wow.
You're my experiment,Apparently he'll be like let's
have a feedback loop.
What the heck?
My question is did you brushyour teeth?
You're getting nowhere near meif you didn't brush your teeth.
I'm just kidding.

Ben (50:33):
So, but yeah, okay.
So the point is that there's afeedback loop.
When we are able to share inthe fast track and the slow
track both processing someone'semotion and experiencing that
with someone our brainwavesactually start to synchronize.

Liz (50:44):
So this is really cool and it happens with women all the
time.
I think it does actually, itactually does.

Ben (50:49):
So the role of eye contact in all this is super important.
But studies have shown thatusing hyperscanning which I'm
not even really familiar withthat word, but I think what it
means is they're measuring twobrains simultaneously.
So studies are showing thatwhen we have eye contact with
people, when we're in thismutual mind state, we start to
exhibit the same brain waves,the same brain patterns in these

(51:13):
scans.
So there's like a neuralsynchronicity as well.
So it's not, you know, it'slike not just being in
synchronous relationship withpeople physically, but actually
our brains start to synchronizeour brain waves, our thought
patterns start to synchronize.
So this it's kind of crazy howall this happens.
It's almost like we were meantto be in physical relationship.

Liz (51:35):
And we're meant to look at one another.
And I just want to say, sinceI've been Ben's experiment for
the last couple of months,seriously, when he does this, so
I'm just, you know, I'm justtalking from my point of view,
but when you do this and you say, okay, you have me look at you
and everything do this and yousay, okay, you have me, look at
you and everything.
I have felt closer to you andwe've been married 20 years.
you know, in these little tinymoments throughout the day and

(51:59):
I've been telling him, I'm like,goodness gracious, you know it,
it, I'm like this needs to bein marriage books you know and I
know we talk about it, but likethe brain science behind it and
like taking the moments to makesure that we're looking eyeball
to eyeball and smiling and allthat.

Ben (52:14):
If we had to boil it down, would you just say that I'm
giving you all of my attention?

Liz (52:18):
Yes, absolutely, Because you don't have a cell phone on
you, You're not looking at yourcomputer and it's.
You know it's passing in thehallway or it's in the morning
it's not something I'm likeliterally trying to just copy
your emotion.

Ben (52:29):
It's just.
I'm locking in, I'm giving youmy full attention and it just
happens naturally Right, andwe've been doing this with our
teens, exactly.
Not even just our teenagers,but our younger kids.

Liz (52:40):
And making points to have that connection with them face
to face and have conversationwith them and making sure.
I mean it's kind of funnybecause when they were growing
up I would always say, look inmy eyes, look, you know, like
when I'm giving direction andstuff.
And we had to do that with ourson that was on the spectrum,
because I needed to make sure hewas hearing me.

(53:01):
So I say, look here, look here.
And we look in the eyes andthen I would say, okay, now I
need you to.
You know, go brush your teeth.
But I mean how great was that?
I didn't even realize I wasdoing brain science.
But I mean, well, and sometimesit spilled over to when I would
be like with children all day,and then Ben would be there.
I'd be like Ben, look me in theeyes, listen to what I need you

(53:22):
to do, you know.
And he's like did you just tellme to look you in the eyes?
And I'm like sorry, I've beenin that mode all day.
Anybody else ever do that withtheir husband?
On accident, maybe?

Ben (53:32):
she did it on purpose.

Liz (53:32):
Yeah, but I'm just saying since we've been introducing
this consciously with our kids.
Now, these experiences whenyou're getting on your cell
phone and when you're playing agame you're missing out on Well
you're not having it number one?

Ben (53:48):
No, You're not having it.
So, if we're spending sevenhours a day on average.
Teens spending seven hours onaverage that's basically a
full-time job daily.

Liz (53:57):
It is.

Ben (53:57):
On top of school, on top of homework, everything else.
When is that synchronous timehappening?
I don't know I think we'retrading our natural way to
interact with individuals withdigital screens.

Liz (54:14):
Right.

Ben (54:14):
That's the opportunity cost right.
So a lot of it is like okay,we've talked about all the bad
things and correlating all themental health issues, but what
does it just cost someone tospend seven hours a day on
anything right?

Liz (54:29):
They're giving up.
What are you giving up?
A lot, A lot, A lot Right andtruthfully, people who are on
phones constantly, maybe they'recraving the relationship.
I'm just thinking, even ingaming they're craving that
connection, that relationshipbut, they're really lonely.
And they don't really haveanybody looking into their
hearts and into their livesbecause they're not having this
opportunity.

Ben (54:49):
Yeah, they're not connecting like we should be on
a deep basis.
So is this mentioned anywherein scripture?
Absolutely We've talked a lotabout brain science and mutual
mind and all this stuff Mutual.
It might sound a little crazy,but we think it's actually
written in scripture and in someof the most surprising ways,

(55:12):
right.
So in Corinthians 13, 12, thisone's kind of a slam dunk, for
now we see through a glass,darkly, but then face to face
Right.
So that's kind of superimportant, like we're made
eventually to see God face toface, to know everything that
can be known.
To see God face to face, toknow everything that can be

(55:32):
known.
And what's really cool about theOld Testament is that there are
plenty of mentions of face toface encounters, absolutely, and
even the Aaronic blessing thisis Aaron right.
Mentions God's face.
I'll just read it real quick theLord bless you and keep you.

(55:53):
The Lord make his face shineupon you and be gracious to you.
The Lord lift up hiscountenance upon you and give
you peace, His peace.
So this is kind of interesting,right?
We have God who, as far as weknow, no man can see him face to
face and live.
Yet Aaron is asking for God tolook upon the people of Israel

(56:19):
right, this is the context ofwhere it is and have his face
shine upon them Favor.
His countenance be upon you.
It's two mentions of that rightRight right.
And I think that's powerful.
I think there's a lot ofmetaphors that we can use when
describing God's face.
It means his attention is uponus.

Liz (56:38):
It means his blessing is upon us.
His favor, yeah, his favor.

Ben (56:41):
But I think, even fundamentally, having the face
of God be attuned to us and usto him, there's something in
that mutual mind concept,there's something in that
attention.
When we have the same mind ofChrist right, and we are in the
same mind with one another, inone accord, there's something

(57:02):
deep that happens there.

Liz (57:03):
Something wonderful.

Ben (57:04):
There's an identity that's formed right we belong to the
Lord and we belong to oneanother and it's his love.
And when we share in thecharacter of God which I think
is what is also meant by thispassage when we allow God's
character to shine on us and weexperience his character and
reflect it back to him and toothers, there is such a powerful

(57:26):
identity that is formed, andthat's what that book Renovated
is all about.
Identity that is formed andthat's what that book Renovated
is all about.
It's these face-to-faceinteractions, it's the concept
of reflecting God's characterand even in the midst of not
having God in person, that wecan interact with.

(57:49):
But when we share his character, that's a form of that mutual
mind.
Exactly, and it's just importantto remember that, even as we
interact with one another, we'resharing God's character as well
.

Liz (58:01):
Yes, absolutely, absolutely .

Ben (58:04):
So let's just jump into a few times that we have done.

Liz (58:08):
Different things.

Ben (58:09):
Some digital detoxing.

Liz (58:10):
We've done that we were not detoxing.
We've done that we were not themost popular people in our
house we might have done it alittle extreme.

Ben (58:17):
Well, it might have been Liz who was possibly leading
that.

Liz (58:21):
Possibly.
Yes, I admit it, I'll go aheadand confess it.
Just because I am black andwhite, like I just am, I'm like
there is no gray, it's right orwrong.

Ben (58:30):
So we did a digital fast it was awesome it was like a cold
turkey kind of.
Oh, it was cold turkey.

Liz (58:38):
Yeah, it was like it was like around the time of lent, I
think it was, or yeah, it waslike around that time.
We've done a few 40 days andthere might have been some
weeping and gnashing of teeththere was some definite weeping
and tears, serious tears, butthe fruit that came out of it
was really good and and what wasone of the like major things

(58:59):
that you found?
Well, we basically did coldturkey and told the kids you
were getting off all screens forhow long?
For 40 days.

Ben (59:08):
Yeah.

Liz (59:09):
And um, I think the kids had a countdown until they could
get back on screens.
In fact, I know one did and, uh, you know, we had them turn in
everything, um, and, and youknow, even for myself, because
at the time I, I was working mybusiness and that was all on
social media, you know just thenature of my business, which was
successful, but you knowthere's a whole thing, and so,

(59:30):
even for me, there was timesthat I turned it off, you know,
and I was detoxing as well, butwe didn't have any video games
happening in the house and, um,we found that the kids were, um,
agitated, they were um notlistening, they were, you know,
irritable with each other,irritable with us.
There, there was all these.

Ben (59:48):
It was dopamine, you know, and we were watching this
addiction cycle.

Liz (59:51):
Yeah, yeah, anger and um, and so we had had enough as
parents and just said well,we're going to.
Maybe I influenced a little bitmore than the other, but I was
like we're done.
We're done.
Everybody's getting off ofeverything, and what we said was
that the only things that wewould watch were the chosen,
because it was coming out.
So whenever the chosen firstcame out, this was that year
that we did that.

(01:00:12):
And um, and it actually endedup being the most beautiful gift
that we could have ever beengiven because, um, on Sunday
nights we would watch the chosenas a family and it was
phenomenal because the kids werebored.
But then they got extra creative.
They started doing all kinds ofthings.
I mean unbelievable buildingforts.

(01:00:33):
They were building forts in ourliving room.
If you've ever followed me onsocial media, you know they pull
out my huge pink sheet.
That's ginormous, like a bigballoon, and they like blew it
up with blowers yeah yeah, theybrought blowers inside for the
leaf blowers.
And they were like blowing it uplike a big balloon.
And then they did all kinds ofshops and they got the neighbors

(01:00:56):
involved and it was literallythem emptying their bedrooms,
like their bookshelves, theirtoy bins and they brought it
over to our house.
They brought it yes, and set itup.

Ben (01:01:04):
Set up shops.

Liz (01:01:04):
Shops.
And then they had like acurrency and they had like you
know, and this went on for days.
Like we're talking about days,I let them do it for days
because, hey, it's creative play.
You know, this is great.
They're not, you know.
And and guess what?
Our children started lovingeach other.
There was respect, there wasunderstanding, there was mutual
mind.
Um they're having these, youknow, conversations with one

(01:01:27):
another, looking at each other.
They were laughing, they weregiggling.
We would play games as a familyand we really you know, the
beginning was hard, but then,when the season was up, you know
, when it was over, it was likesad because we had really
brought an innocence back intoour home.

Ben (01:01:43):
Yes, In a way that the digital lifestyle just couldn't
bring.

Liz (01:01:48):
No it couldn't bring and granted.
I mean we were still puttingparameters on the kids playing
games.

Ben (01:01:53):
It wasn't like just endless , however, we weren't doing
seven hours a day.

Liz (01:01:57):
No.
However, what we were allowingwas not producing good fruit, we
were not seeing happiness inour house and yeah, and so when
we just pulled the plug and thenwhen we came out of that first
time because we've done otherones- since then.
Yeah, we've done some.
We put some serious likeboundaries down, like you know,

(01:02:17):
and I know we're going to getinto that as well.
But I mean we put seriousboundaries down and it just like
it, just like reset everybody,it's like a digital reset.

Ben (01:02:26):
It did it was our own little digital detox, and again
this was a hardcore like fast.
Our own little digital detox,and again this was a hardcore
fast.

Liz (01:02:35):
And we've come up with a 30-day digital detox plan for
families that we think ishelpful.

Ben (01:02:37):
It's not as hardcore If you want to do a fast?
Great, that's awesome.
We highly recommend it.
But we also know thateverybody's starting at a
different place.
We were pretty restrictivebefore this and so, even though
we had the weeping and gnashingof teeth, it wasn't terrible.
We just had to redirect somekids and was fine.
Some cried more than others.
If you've got teenagers thatare doing seven hours a day and

(01:02:59):
you try to do cold turkey,you're going to get a reaction
like an addict.
It's like taking away crack froma crack addict.
You're going to get.

Liz (01:03:05):
And I have had moms call me .
I mean recently, just a coupleof weeks ago, I had a mom who
called me and she was frantic,and this is one of the reasons
why we are doing this episode,because I have had people reach
out, because in our communityI'm, I've shared like, hey, this
is what we did and this is whatwe've seen, and so people are
like talk to me, help me, my,this mom reached out.

(01:03:27):
My team is.
I just took away her device andshe went ballistic.
Now our kids didn't really dothat, but when she was telling
me what happened and I thoughtI've heard of that happening and
you know she was like what do Ido?
And I was like don't give itback.
Like you know, I mean maybe.
Yeah, you're already goingthrough it.

(01:03:48):
It's kind of like you know,don't go backwards kind of thing
Right right, right Don't getback in no.
And I mean this mom was cryingwith me on the phone.
She was at a loss, you know,and it just breaks my heart.
So this is more, gentler, thatwe're talking about.

Ben (01:04:02):
Yeah, yeah, doing this 30-day digital detox guide for
families is going to bestep-based, right.
So we start with a plan, youtalk about it as a family, you
go through and you set guiderails.

Liz (01:04:13):
Right.

Ben (01:04:13):
And each day you try something different, while also
practicing the concept of mutualmind as a family, and so.

Liz (01:04:21):
So fun.

Ben (01:04:22):
We're taking different Bible verses and we're going to
highlight those every week, andthe concept is to hopefully get
to a place where we'reprioritizing embodied
connections over digitalconnections.

Liz (01:04:34):
That's right, because they're just puff yeah Now.
And we're not like our kids.
We still like play the Wiitogether as a family and they'll
jump on the switch and they'llplay Smash Bros and I mean,
they're having fun and we stillwatch movies.

Ben (01:04:46):
Yeah, we still watch.
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, all thatstuff.

Liz (01:04:47):
I mean, we're doing those things still Right, but there is
a different digital hygiene,and what this is, this is
helping you to reprogram yourbrain, yes, and reprogram your
family.

Ben (01:04:57):
Right.

Liz (01:04:58):
The key is getting on the same page, especially as mom and
dad, as mom and dad, and ifyou're single and find a buddy
to do this with, you commit toit If you're feeling the
conviction on this or you'refeeling the life on it and
you're like I need a changebecause, truthfully, doom
scrolling is zombie land.

Ben (01:05:17):
Yes, you're just adding to your anxiety.

Liz (01:05:19):
You're just depression.

Ben (01:05:20):
We're not made to have that much information.

Liz (01:05:22):
No.

Ben (01:05:23):
Just come through our brains at any given time.

Liz (01:05:25):
We're meant to have local embodied, we're meant to have
local embodied experiences andwhen you're scrolling it's just
a dopamine hit and there'sactually like there has been
studies done.
I know we always talk aboutstudies, but like people go to
sleep and they're scrolling,like babies sound asleep,
scrolling with their finger Likeit's nuts it is nuts and it's

(01:05:46):
an epidemic.
We've got to turn the tide andso our little piece of the world
.
We're doing what we can do, ofcourse.
We're wanting to get theinformation out there, but we
really want families to havefamilies.
We want to produce healthy,independent adults.
That's what we want.
We want them to go through andnot be totally addicted all the
time on their screen.

(01:06:07):
Right, right.

Ben (01:06:08):
We want them to be self-regulating.

Liz (01:06:10):
Yeah, their screen right, right.

Ben (01:06:11):
We want them to be self-regulating, and so it
starts with us, right.

Liz (01:06:13):
It starts with us as the model.

Ben (01:06:14):
And if we're not modeling self-regulation, then it's going
to be really hard for ourchildren too.
But as a family we've adoptedsome of these concepts of the
self-regulation.
So let's just talk about some ofthe things we do, like our
digital guardrails.
And number one, we have to makesure that we're filtering the
right kind of content.
So that's primary right.
Like you, just, you can't letunfiltered internet, unfiltered

(01:06:36):
access, nope to the world.
It's just.
It's a recipe for disaster,right, it's not an if your teens
are going to find somethingthat's inappropriate or your
kids, not even just your teenskids.
We're talking little kids ourkids found it on the bus.

Liz (01:06:51):
We talked about that last episode, the school bus Right.

Ben (01:06:52):
They were on the school bus in elementary school and they
were exposed to some bad stuff,demonic yuck.
It's just going to happen.

Liz (01:06:59):
You have to have a plan for it.

Ben (01:07:01):
But even as the gatekeepers of our home, the digital
gatekeepers of our home we haveto make sure we're setting up
the right filters, the rightaccountability software.
If you've got teens and otheradults, and like we,
participating in it too, so youknow none of us are above it,
right?
I'm not above it.
Liz is not above it.
We all need accountability andwe want to make sure that that

(01:07:23):
is a model behavior for our kids, so they see like, hey, mom and
dad are accountable to eachother.
You know like I need to beaccountable.

Liz (01:07:29):
Everybody needs to be accountable.
Well, we want them to imprinton us.
We want these kids imprintingon us and we want them looking
at us as the prestige in thisarea.

Ben (01:07:37):
That's right.

Liz (01:07:38):
I mean, you guys are your kids' heroes.
Yeah, that's true At the end ofthe day, your kids.
They're looking to you as theirheroes.
That's very true.
And you can do this, parents.

Ben (01:07:53):
Yeah, you can.
You can do it.
Ask the lord to help you and hewill.
He's so good, he's so good.
Digital filters accountabilitysoftware.
We decided in our hearts that16 is the age that we will give
smartphones so that's, that'sold.

Liz (01:08:03):
We were 13.
And when the kids turned 13, oh, it was a disaster, because
they were becoming addicted totheir phones it was like giving
them a slot machine andexpecting them to self-regulate?
They weren't, and they, and,and we did it with the, with the
idea that, okay, they're inmiddle school you know, they're
going into high school tell themwhat bria came home and told
you in elementaryschool that she was the only one

(01:08:26):
in her class yeah, she was theonly one in her class one of
three fifth graders who did, andher whole grade that did not
have a phone.

Ben (01:08:35):
So one of three in the entire grade that didn't have a
phone.

Liz (01:08:39):
I think it was eight fifth grade classes.

Ben (01:08:41):
That's nuts we're giving Hundreds of kids.
We're just giving phones to ourkids.
I don't know.
It's hard.

Liz (01:08:49):
Okay, so we were saying 13, .
Back to us, we were saying 13.
And then you know, we startedseeing that, okay, these kids
have like underlying addictions,like we're getting some
attitudes.
Yes, we started seeing somebehavior modifications yeah,
some stuff.

Ben (01:09:08):
And it's like whoa, whoa, whoa whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa I
was.

Liz (01:09:11):
You know, we had our last son that got his phone at 13.
And then we started discoveringall this stuff that we're
talking about and we just tookit away.

Ben (01:09:20):
We're like this is like okay, sorry, buddy, yeah, he
lost it because he lost itbecause he did.

Liz (01:09:26):
I forget what it was.
I think he was on it when hewasn't supposed to be or
something like that.
And so you know we don't reallyplay with that.
If you you.
You break those kinds of rules.
It's over, because obviouslythey don't have the maturity
Right.

Ben (01:09:38):
Yes.

Liz (01:09:38):
So anyway, we took it away and then we dug into all this
stuff and he's never getting itback, like he will never get it
back.

Ben (01:09:43):
He'll get it back.

Liz (01:09:52):
It's, but the ones that are behind him were like really
Great.
So they're like you mean, whenI turn 13, I can't get a phone.
We're like, nope, you're goingto have to wait until you're 16.
Yeah, because and you know whatthe kids are so much happier.

Ben (01:10:00):
Yes, they really are.
They are way happier.
Our house is more peaceful.
Our kid, who we did, take thephone away.

Liz (01:10:05):
Yes, we saw a mat in him, and he is a delightful kid, I
mean he's still a teenager and abig puppy.

Ben (01:10:12):
I got my issues too, he's definitely a pan of brownies
right now.
So we decided no smartphonesuntil 16.
We felt like that was anintense but very intentional
decision that we made as afamily, as Liz and I decided,
and so far we've seen somepretty awesome results from that

(01:10:33):
.
We've also decided no socialmedia until our kids are out of
the house.
That's an extreme.
We realize that that's anextreme.
But we also realize that socialmedia has extreme mental health
effects on teens.
There's no other way to cut it.
You can do all the research youwant.
There is a negative mentalhealth association with every

(01:10:53):
hour I think this is one of thestats I didn't get to Every hour
that you add to your dailyconsumption of social media is a
13% increase.
I'm sorry, a 13% decrease inmental health specifically
anxiety and depression.

Liz (01:11:08):
Right, and we have seen that.
And that's specifically forteens Right, specifically for
teens, and we have seen that andthat's specifically for teens
Right.
Specifically for teens, andwe've seen that and so we just
made that decision.
And you know what?
Our kids are fine, they'rehappy, they have full lives,
they have friends Right, they'refine, they're totally fine,
they're not Luddites, they'renot.
Luddites Right, they're fine,they're really fine.
I mean, we just had a daughterwho went away on a beach weekend

(01:11:30):
and she had a blast and they,oh my gosh, and on this beach
weekend that she went on, theyhad rules about cell phones and
they had blocked times that youwere not allowed to pick up a
phone, and then they had timesthat you could, so you could
check in with your parents orwhatever.
But I mean the world, I meanthe places are getting it Like
there's schools that are gettingit Teachers.

(01:11:54):
Places are getting it.
There's schools that aregetting it.
Teachers, teachers are gettingit.
If you have any question aboutwhat?

Ben (01:11:57):
we're talking about here.
Go ask a teacher in a publicschool if smartphones are good
for Americans' adolescence.

Liz (01:12:02):
Nope, they'll say.
Nope, you'll find someinteresting perspective.

Ben (01:12:05):
Nope, nope.
The last thing that we do as afamily is a digital Sabbath.

Liz (01:12:09):
Oh yeah, we love this one.

Ben (01:12:12):
So we take.
Sunday off from screens andjust as a family, we just say,
hey, no screens, and that's morethan just smartphones.
That's like you know anyanything yeah and we try to
prioritize time with one another, time outdoors doing other
activities playing games yeah,board games, yeah, we try to do
things like that.
Those are those are ourguardrails, right, right.
So digital filters,accountability software, no

(01:12:33):
smartphones until 16, socialmedia when you're out of the
house and digital Sabbath werealize those are extremes and
that's pretty intense forcounterculture even you could
say that.
So that's why we focused onthis digital detox as a family,
this detox guide, this 30-dayguide to kind of help you find
your own guardrails as a family.
This detox guide, this 30-dayguide to kind of help you find
your own guardrails as a family.

Liz (01:12:54):
Right, what's good for your family, your identity, yeah,
and I want to say too, becauseyou're saying, smartphones at 16
.
So we recognize that there arefamilies where kids are late at
night doing sports or dance orwhatever.
And there was a season that wehad our kids that had watches.

Ben (01:13:10):
The watches yes, yeah, where they could only call like
five numbers or whatever youknow.

Liz (01:13:12):
and there was a season that we had our kids that had
watches.
The watches, yes.
Yeah, where they could.
You know, they could only calllike five numbers or whatever.
Sure, flip phones yeah, get aflip phone.
Get a flip phone, yep.
The thing is, is that it's theavailability to the internet,
yes, and to apps?
The apps, yep, and so, and whenyou get some games on there,

(01:13:35):
those kids are just a littlenutso on the games, you know,
and it's, it's a addictionbecause especially well it's a
slot machine, and especiallysome of these games where they
have to keep feeding somethingor like keep you know they're
attacked overnight and then theygo back in and they look at it
and their minds are always onthat, and that is not healthy.

Ben (01:13:44):
No especially at that age.

Liz (01:13:46):
Not healthy because it's the formative year still.
I mean their frontal lobe isnot even fully developed until
25.

Ben (01:13:53):
Yep, yep, it's crazy.
So yeah, all this to say thoseare our digital guardrails.
We have this detox guide.
We'll put the link in the shownotes.
We'd love for you guys to geton there and try it as a family
for 30 days.
As an individual, but it'sreally about deprioritizing
digital connections,reprioritizing your embodied

(01:14:14):
connections with people, andthen finding out kind of like
what makes sense for you as anindividual, as a family.
What can you do to bring kindof those guardrails back into
focus?
And then, lastly, I think thething that we want to leave
everybody with is just thisconcept of mutual mind with your
creator.
We believe you were created inthe image of God.

Liz (01:14:33):
Yes, we do.
What does that?

Ben (01:14:34):
mean?
What does it mean to be createdin the image of God?
To a God that you can't see,right?
That seems counterintuitive.
We think it means you werecreated with God's character in
mind.
That is your optimal way thatyou operate as a human, when you
reflect his character andyou're able to see that in
others, and that's our primarymode of operation.

(01:14:56):
That's the way that we fullybecome alive as humans when we
reflect his character when wetake on his image.
What makes God God?
So that's what we're talkingabout.
When you have mutual mind withGod, it's reflecting his
character, it's living in hislove and it's experiencing that
with other people.
Right In Matthew 25, god talksabout doing things as unto him.

(01:15:18):
When you do that to the leastof these, my brothers, right?
And so it's that concept ofloving God through loving other
people and those lovinginteractions, that mutual mind
with people around you done inthe character of God, I believe
is a beautiful thing, becauseit's not only loving him.
That mutual mind with peoplearound you done in the character
of God, I believe is abeautiful thing because it's not
only loving him, it's lovingothers, right, and there's just
talk about a feedback loop.

(01:15:39):
That's amazing.
When you're living fully alivelike that, it's just a special
way to be human.

Liz (01:15:45):
There's no other feeling.
It's the first and secondcommandment.
It is.
That's what it is.
It's the first and secondcommandment.

Ben (01:15:51):
And another way to have mutual mind this is one that
I've been trying recently isreally to meditate on God's
character and his emotionstowards you.
So it's like slowing down andfeeling God's thoughts, feeling
God's character as it relates toyou and reflecting that back to
him and then that's kind ofanother feedback loop, right.

(01:16:13):
You feel a surge of emotion, youjust feel the love of the Lord,
and then it goes right back tohim, him loving you, you loving
him.
It's just like boom, boom, boom, boom.
It's that feedback loop andthat's really fun too, just to
meditate on God's character,what his thoughts are towards
you.
Do a study in the.
Old Testament in the NewTestament.
What is God like?

(01:16:34):
What is his character, what arehis thoughts towards you?

Liz (01:16:37):
That's a fascinating journey to go on, and I
guarantee you, you will findsome mutual mind with the Lord,
you will Absolutely, absolutely,wow, ben, what an episode.
What an episode.
We've been working on this andtalking about this for months
yeah.
And this is actually one of themain reasons why we started our
podcast.
Our podcast is because we, likewe said at the beginning, we

(01:16:59):
just feel so strongly about thisand it's basically an epidemic
and we want families to thrive.
We do.
We want people to be in healthyrelationships, connecting and
having embodied experiences, andwe know that we live in a world
that's a digital age, but wedon't want it controlling us.

Ben (01:17:19):
We don't.
We want to control it.

Liz (01:17:20):
We want to control it.
And when you get into the brainscience and when you get into
finding out that they're payingbehavioral scientists to study
us, to figure out how to get usaddicted, to study us to figure
out how to get us addicted,that's what made me so mad.

Ben (01:17:32):
I felt so duped.

Liz (01:17:34):
It felt so duped, and then also, too, just the beauty of,
like what you're reading about,his face, the Lord's face,
shining towards us, and that hedesires that face-to-face time
with us because we have a realrelationship with him right.
And so just the beauty of howthat has been established since
the foundations of the earth,but then how it's coming and

(01:17:54):
being usurped.

Ben (01:17:55):
You know and.

Liz (01:17:57):
I just I think what hurts me the most is like we will go
out to dinner and we'll sit downand there'll be a couple
sitting there and they're ontheir phones the entire time.
And it's like they're on anexpensive dinner.

Ben (01:18:08):
Yeah, they're paying hundreds of dollars to be there,
hundreds of dollars Just to beon their phone.

Liz (01:18:12):
And so you know, we have to be intentional with what we're
doing right we have to beintentional and we're not saying
just flush social media downthe toilet, although if you want
to and you're like me, that'sokay, I understand.
I mean I was off social media,I think last year, for like what
was it?
Six, seven months?
straight.
I got off everything because Iwas just like I can't.

Ben (01:18:30):
Liz the Luddite.

Liz (01:18:31):
Yes, I was a Luddite, I know, but it was so good for me,
but I needed it.
I needed the time off and Ineeded the time away.
Yeah, I was detoxing from it.
But what I was going to say,too, is that we have to be
intentional.
It's not just either we let ithappen to us or we happen to it,
and we need to turn the tideand we need to get involved and

(01:18:52):
get in the fight.
And.
I know parents.
I just want to say this is nocondemnation, because I have
been there and I have done that.
But you know, sometimes it'sjust easier to turn on a movie,
Sometimes it's just easier togive our kids an iPad or give
them the phone, and there aretimes that, yes, you do need to
do that.
You may be in the doctor'soffice and it's like your kids
are melting down and you reallyneed to hear what the doctor's

(01:19:13):
saying, and so you give them theiPad, but you've been wrangling
them for the last 30 minutesand it's okay, you know.
I mean there are times likewhen I was newly pregnant and I
had lots of kids and I wasexhausted and I would turn on
the TV and I, because I wasnewly pregnant, I pass out for
two hours.
I wake up and they've beenwatching VeggieTales for two
hours and I'm like did I lose?

(01:19:34):
it.
Yeah, what happened?
I mean, the doors were lockedand all the things, and so
there's ebbs and flows.
So no condemnation, you guys.

Ben (01:19:40):
No condemnation.

Liz (01:19:42):
How am I saying that?

Ben (01:19:43):
Condemnation.

Liz (01:19:44):
Yeah, I'm saying it right.
Okay, I'm like it sounds weirdwhen I say it.
Condensation no condensation,no condensation.
But in all seriousness, we wantyou to feel empowered that you
can do it.
We want you to feel like I'vegot this, even the little steps.
Even the little steps.
And so with this 30-day planthat we're offering you, I mean,
then we'll put a link in thereand you just click on it and

(01:20:05):
then we'll email it to you,because that's how we have to do
it.

Ben (01:20:08):
Yeah, we just need an email address, and then you can get
access to it it's completelyfree.
We're not asking for anythingbesides just an email address,
but yeah we think it's going tobe super helpful to kind of get
you on that journey of beingable to detox as a family or as
an individual and then alsoprioritize embodied connections,
like getting back to that asour foundation, and being

(01:20:29):
intentional in it, that's thekey is being intentional and we
just want freedom.

Liz (01:20:33):
I think that is our banner, is we want freedom because I
know the traps.
We have seen it in our familyI've felt it in my life.
You've felt it in your life.

Ben (01:20:42):
Oh man, I've been there.

Liz (01:20:44):
I've been in the trap, we've been there.
Yeah, I mean, you know it wasthe Lord that you had to give it
up.
Now you did do cold turkey.

Ben (01:20:54):
I did cold turkey.

Liz (01:20:55):
Oh man, maybe I'm a Luddite .
I married one, yes, but youknow, I mean I was newly
pregnant with our first, andthen of course, I was sleeping
because I was always tired allthe time and you filled the time
very easily.

Ben (01:21:08):
Oh yeah, lots of games.

Liz (01:21:10):
Yeah, lots of games, yeah, lots of games with buddies and
all that stuff.
But I'm so thankful that youdid feel the conviction from the
Lord, because if you didn't, Idon't know where our family
would be today.
I don't know where our marriagewould be today.
We definitely wouldn't be havingembodied conversations like we
are, but we just want to say,like you can do it, the Holy
Spirit is going to help you, theLord is going to help you, and

(01:21:32):
there is going to be fruit onthe other side.
And, just like with anything,it feels icky maybe in the
beginning, but it's so healthy.
It is so healthy and you willbe rewriting your brain.

Ben (01:21:44):
Yes, your brain is going to be rewriting.
There's things that you'll bedoing that are going to be
intense, like it's having tolearn new skills sometimes,
especially if you're teens,right, or you grew up in the
generation of the firstsmartphone generation.
And this is just normalbehavior.
And seven hours a day.
You've been doing that foryears.
Right Like it takes work to getout of that.

(01:22:07):
Those worn down ruts in yourbrain that say that is normal
behavior and that's what I'mused to as normal.
Like that takes a lot of workbut it's not impossible.

Liz (01:22:17):
It isn't impossible and there are testimonies of people
who've walked out of that.
I mean shoot.
They have detox for gamers andfor social addiction.

Ben (01:22:24):
This is becoming a thing.

Liz (01:22:25):
People are paying money to go.
I just saw something the otherday.
It was like a documentary andpeople were paying like tens of
thousands of dollars to puttheir phones locked up and they
went to like this ranch, orwhatever.
Yeah, like a retreat kind ofthing, and they were basically
having in-body experiences.

(01:22:47):
They were swimming, they wereplaying, they were doing all the
things and they were paying allthis money.
So we're trying to help yousave money.
That's what we're doing.
We're trying to help you savemoney and, uh, and give you the
tools you know cause you can doit.
Greater is he that is in usthan he that is in the world and
, and you know, if he is for us,you can be against us, and the
Lord is for you, he is for yourfamily and you know what.

(01:23:08):
Maybe you just stumbled uponthis because you're like trying
to figure out information andfigure some things out, and so
kudos to you.

Ben (01:23:15):
Kudos to you so.

Liz (01:23:17):
I think that wraps it up.
Is there anything else?
Ben, no, I think we got it allout.
What All?
right.
Well, thank you for being apart of our One Blessed Mess
today.
You know, this really is a OneBlessed Mess.
I mean, we're being honest andopen with you guys, but don't
forget to subscribe, like andshare heart all the ways that,
however, you're listening tothis and share this with

(01:23:38):
somebody that you think wouldbenefit from it.
Like it may be a family member,it could be a child, your
spouse, a pastor, I don't know.
There are other resources thatare out there you know that you
could go to, but definitelycheck out the Anxious Generation
.
So if you want some of theinformation, just scroll down

(01:24:00):
and go ahead and click the linkand you can get the PDF that
we'll have for you, the guidefor 30 days.
And with all that being said,we want to say until next time,
embrace your beautiful mess,because if our mess can be
blessed, then what Ben?

Ben (01:24:16):
Then we know so can yours.

Liz (01:24:18):
So can yours.

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Ep. 15 - Family Digital Detox: Establishing Digital Boundaries & Restoring Human Connection

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Ep. 15 - Family Digital Detox: Establishing Digital Boundaries & Restoring Human Connection