May 6, 2025 • 57 mins
What happens when faith collides with real-world suffering? We tackle this question head-on, diving deep into a conversation most would rather avoid. Pain is universal—no one escapes it—yet our Western church culture often lacks a robust theology for navigating life's darkest valleys.
Through the lens of Job's ancient story, we uncover how God never explains the "why" behind suffering, offering instead His presence and character. This biblical truth challenges common misconceptions that obedience equals comfort or that faith shields us from hardship. Jesus himself promised trouble in this world, while Paul, Peter, and James all spoke of suffering as an expected part of the faith journey.
Science confirms what scripture suggests: transformation often emerges from our deepest pain. Studies reveal that 50-60% of trauma survivors experience positive change through what psychologists call Post-Traumatic Growth—new possibilities, deeper relationships, increased personal strength, spiritual renewal, and greater appreciation for life.
Whether you're currently walking through darkness or supporting someone who is, this conversation offers both comfort and challenge. God collects our tears, draws near to the brokenhearted, and promises His presence through the waters and fires of life. Consider sharing this episode with someone who needs to hear they're not alone in their suffering.
Your Listening to our 1 blessed mess, with ben and liz
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Liz (00:07):
Welcome to Our One Blessed Mess.
This is Ben and Liz, and we'rehere sharing our story of how we
raised six kids that we had ineight years, managing our
entrepreneurial home with twobusinesses, homeschooling and
currently navigating life withfour teenagers plus seven, two
dogs and two more kids, akagoats goats we've got some goats
(00:29):
.
We got the goat life.
Yes, we have goat life.
That actually should be like ona t-shirt or something.
People who have other goatsthey understand.
It's like people with chickens,they understand oh yeah there is
such a thing as chicken math,or is there such a thing as goat
math?
Ben (00:41):
I don't know, how does that work?
I well, chicken math is like you, school me, school me in the
goat math.
Liz (00:47):
Well, chicken math is like it's a joke among other people
who have chickens that you startout with maybe a few chickens
but before you know it, you endup with like multiple hens like
rabbits yes, I guess likerabbits we have not gotten into
rabbit yeah, but goats, here weare with two little boy goats
and they are fun and energeticand very cute when they run
(01:10):
around.
Yeah, it is pretty cute, it'sreally cute.
But with that being said, youknow we have all that just to
basically keep our lifeinteresting.
But today's conversation topicis about what?
Ben (01:22):
Today we're going to talk about something that is not like
the most I don't know joyfulthing.
Liz (01:29):
No, it's not, it really isn't, it's kind of a little bit
of a downer, because it's pain.
Ben (01:34):
That's what we're going to talk about.
Liz (01:36):
We were going through this and talking about it, I said,
ben, I don't think this is avery lighthearted conversation.
Ben (01:43):
It's not a lighthearted conversation, no.
Liz (01:45):
But the truth is is every single one of us walk through
this.
Ben (01:47):
We need it though.
Liz (01:48):
We do need it we need to talk about it.
And you cannot escape this.
Ben (01:51):
No, you can't, there's no way.
Liz (01:53):
You can't Think your way through it.
Away from it.
Ben (01:58):
I mean you can think your way through it.
You can't go around it.
Liz (02:02):
Okay, he's being funny.
So in my business, when I wasworking with a lot of women, we
would say I will let no one pushmy buttons.
And basically we say I'll goover, I'll go under, I'll go
through any obstacle that comesin my way.
But you always say it wrong oh,can't go over, it, can't.
Ben (02:18):
I'm like that is not what it is, you gotta go through it.
Liz (02:20):
Yeah, you.
Ben (02:21):
Oh great.
It's a good thing, okay, well,speaking of pain, that was
painful, yeah it was painful.
Okay.
So this question, right, isabout suffering, right, and the
question is is God worthy of ourpain?
Is he?
You know, we often say God isworthy of our praise, he's
worthy of our worship, he'sworthy of our lives.
(02:41):
But I don't know.
Very few of us get to thatpoint where we're like is he
worthy of our pain?
And we can have a definite yesbehind that because it's hard.
It is hard and I think sometimeswe have bad theology around
pain, Like why would a good Godallow bad things to happen?
Is suffering a sign ofsomething else?
Liz (03:03):
That is deep because I have to admit there have been times
that I've judged other peoplewho are going through pain as if
like well, maybe it's becauseof X, y and Z.
Ben (03:13):
Yeah, you think it's like a sign.
Oh yeah, because you've donethat.
It's a sign.
It's indicative that there'ssomething else going on.
One thing if, like, they havebeen living in a certain
lifestyle and it's like, well,you know, yeah in a certain
lifestyle and it's like, well,you know, yeah, reaping what you
sow, yeah, yeah, but yeah, likewe're very quick to just
associate suffering with, maybe,something that is completely
bad, or or deserving yep, andand sometimes we don't even
(03:36):
understand the meaning behindpain, right, and you know, just
like attributing it to somethingelse or just being a sign for
something else.
I'm thinking of signs, I'mthinking of a sign that you came
across one time with the kidsOkay.
Yeah, political sign.
Oh, a political sign, and I'mthinking of when you saw it and
(03:58):
you stopped.
Oh, this is so funny, and a kidwas having some pain at the
moment because he had to go peeso badly.
Yes, and you stopped to let himout of the car.
Liz (04:09):
Hold on, hold on.
I got to back up, so I was onthe phone with one of my clients
.
Ben (04:14):
Yeah.
Liz (04:14):
And we had just left another home and they actually
had chickens.
This is before we had ourchickens.
Ben (04:20):
There you go.
Liz (04:21):
So this friend of mine was like bring your kids over.
Before we had our chicken.
So we she, this friend of minewas like bring your kids over,
they can see all of our chickens.
We have baby chicks.
So I took all my kids over andactually, ironically, they had
goats.
Oh my gosh Anyway.
And so we go and we do this,and we see the chickens and see
the goats.
And as we're driving home, asalways somebody has to go to the
bathroom, and at this time wehad the little minivan and so
(04:41):
you could open the doors fromthe push button.
And so I pulled over on theside of the road because it was
like a very important point inthe conversation and I had the
kids on with watching a movie.
But I was like all right, I'mjust going to pull over, they
can sit there and watch thismovie, and I'm going to get out
on the side of the road andfinish this conversation.
Well, as I'm on thisconversation, unfortunately it's
(05:02):
like we're a T in the road,like the road that we turned on
T'd into a major road.
So I was kind of off the majorroad and all of a sudden the
door opens and a kid sticks outtheir head and says Mom, mom, I
got to go pee, I have to go pee.
And I muted the phone whilethis person's talking and I'm
like what?
And they're like I have to pee,really bad.
And I'm like, ok, just get outand pee on the tire.
(05:24):
Well, they didn't hear me saythat because it was a boy, and
I'm like, you know, you don'twant them to be visible.
And I'm trying to hurry up thiscall with this person so I
could get.
We're not very far from wherethere could be a bathroom and
what happens?
All of a sudden, this child.
Now, you guys, this is 2016.
And this is when there were thepresidential elections
(05:48):
happening, and so at thisparticular spot that I was at,
not too far from me, was all ofthese political signs, and so my
child gets out and begins topee on a political sign.
Now, they don't know what'sgoing on and I'm on the phone
and I'm trying to wrap up thiscall, you know, because it was
very important, like right atthat moment, and the timing was
off, and so I had to pull overand take the call and I thought
(06:10):
the kids were fine watching amovie because they were all in
their car seats, and insteadthat child starts peeing on the
sign and I'm like muting thecall, asking their horn and like
whoa, yeah.
I'm like no, no, no, no, youknow.
And then, like in between theperson talking to me, I'm like
I'm muting.
(06:30):
I'm like yeah, yeah, muting,I'm like get back in the van.
What are you doing?
I said you could pee rightoutside the door, not on the
sign, not on the sign.
Well then that kid goes in andthen all of a sudden another
head pops out, the van dooropens Mom, I really have to go
to the bathroom.
I really have to go to thebathroom.
I'm like, okay, but just goright screaming, pee on the sign
(06:53):
, pee on the sign, pee on thesign.
And so literally whoever that Idon't even remember who the kid
is they're peeing on anothersign.
And then, of course, people aredriving by, you know, honking
(07:16):
their horns.
It was terrible.
I'm like this is not happening.
What just happened?
Ben (07:21):
Wow.
Yeah, it was awful who's therole model for these kids?
It's boys.
Liz (07:27):
It was boys it obviously unbelievable their father,
because it's not me.
I don't have that body part,and you know yeah well anyway,
you know, and when you havelittle ones and they're doing
the pp dams like you just yougotta make it happen.
That's real pain right thereyeah, and this phone call was
only, like you know, in themidst of it was like maybe eight
minutes.
You know, it was like a reallyquick thing, but it was like one
right after the other, I'mthinking good.
(07:48):
Lord.
So, anyway, this has nothing todo with pain but I guess they
were in pain.
Yeah, I guess, so yeah.
Ben (08:01):
But that's not what we're talking about today, but a
little bit.
We, you know we're obviously wewant to qualify, we're not
experts and we just have thelife that we've lived and some
of the antidotes that we canshare.
But we do feel like especiallythe Western church we just don't
have a great grasp on pain.
Maybe that's because we don'tsuffer persecution on a regular
(08:25):
basis.
Liz (08:27):
We haven't had war on our country and our land in a long
time.
Ben (08:31):
I mean, it's been what?
Liz (08:32):
since the Civil War.
So we haven't, we're not, wartorn.
Yes, this is true.
Maybe.
Ben (08:37):
So we just, you know, we have an aversion of pain and
again it's not, I mean, it's notright or wrong, but we just
don't.
We don't have the experience,and so a lot of times we turn to
the prosperity side of thegospel.
Right.
And we focus on that piece of itand then we preach the
prosperity gospel, and sothere's some things that can
(08:59):
kind of get a little distorted.
If we're only hearing about theprosperous side of the gospel,
then we can start equating painwith something that is
anti-biblical.
And I want to just pause thereand say that is a misconception.
And some of the misconceptionsthat we can have is that
obedience equals comfort, thatkind of prosperity gospel.
(09:23):
A lot of times we get that likeif we're obeying, then we'll be
, comfort We'll have, we'll livea comfortable life, we won't
have any pain.
Liz (09:30):
Right, and unfortunately I have been in that pool swimming
there.
I thought that too.
Keep going, keep going.
Another one Just reading mymail Keep going.
Ben (09:38):
Another one is this implicit promise that faith will
shield us from suffering right.
So, there's that obedience partequals comfort.
There's that if we have enoughfaith, we won't have suffering.
And then a third kind ofdangerous point here is that
suffering equals punishment, andso those three, I think, are
(09:59):
common misconceptions that comefrom just focusing on the
prosperity side of the gospel.
I'm not saying that God doesn'twant us to prosper.
I believe he does.
But there's also some pointsthat Liz is going to take us
into about what we can expect inthis life, and it's not
underlined with prosperity.
What is it have?
Liz (10:19):
you been reading my journal , because I just feel like those
three things that you said havebeen in my journal.
Ben (10:24):
Maybe I should.
Liz (10:31):
Maybe I don't know, I'm like dang, I feel so convicted,
but it's true.
It's so true what you just said.
So there is a biblicalexpectation in regards to
suffering.
Ben (10:36):
There is.
Liz (10:37):
And Jesus talks about it, paul talks about it, james talks
about it.
And so just some quickscriptures real fast.
Jesus says in this world youwill have trouble.
That's in John 16, 33.
Paul says we must go throughmany hardships to enter the
kingdom of God.
That's in Acts 14, 22.
Peter says do not be surprisedat the fiery ordeal that has
(10:59):
come on you.
First, peter, 4, 12.
And then, last but not least,james says consider it pure joy
whenever you face trials.
And that's in James 1, verse 2.
But the thing is is we don'tlike those verses.
We want them out of our Bible,right, we want to omit them.
We want happy, joy, peace andit's like, but we go through
(11:19):
pain, we go through suffering.
Ben (11:21):
We do, and they're what we should expect, right?
If?
Jesus and Paul and Peter andJames are all telling us and
prepping us to expect this, thenit's probably something we need
to have at least some type ofunderstanding about right and we
can't just throw away the ideaof suffering, meaning that we're
(11:42):
in sin, okay.
So I think that's crucial, andthe ultimate story that really
illustrates that is Job.
Yeah, job is such a headscratcher it is.
Liz (11:54):
And do you remember when our son, when we would ask him
our oldest, we'd say, what'syour favorite book in the Bible?
Because he was just reading theBible.
So much.
He's like Job, I just love Job.
And even just recently in oneof our family devotions.
And he's like Job, I just loveJob.
And even just recently in oneof our family devotions, somehow
we got on Job and he had somuch wisdom.
Ben (12:08):
Right.
Liz (12:08):
He was still gleaning from.
I mean, I don't think he's readit like thoroughly in the last
couple of years, right, but hewas like oh no it's so good, he
studied it yeah.
He's like everybody shouldreally read Job.
And I'm like most I don't know,I don't know how to describe,
(12:34):
yeah, maybe the most delightfulconclusions there's some
incredible things in there thereis, there's, I mean there's
some beautiful things about thecharacter of god and his
interaction with the lord andhis sovereignty.
Ben (12:45):
It's beautiful, but at the same time it's like this man
went through a lot and you'rethinking if I read this, this is
probably going to happen to me.
Liz (12:54):
I don't want to read it because I don't want to
experience it.
I don't want to know if I'mdumb and happy.
Ben (12:57):
I'd rather be dumb and happy.
It's terrible.
Liz (13:00):
But you can't be that when you're married to Ben, all right
, keep going I.
But you can't be that whenyou're married to Ben, all right
, keep going.
Ben (13:03):
I don't think it's good.
I don't think it's good to gothrough life without
understanding this part, and solet's just set it up, okay.
So here is a righteous man, job.
He was righteous.
In fact, god's even braggingabout his righteousness.
Liz (13:15):
It's crazy, right, it's crazy.
Ben (13:18):
Have you considered my servant Job, and so it.
It's really kind of indicativethat here is this righteous man
who doesn't have that connectionto suffering because of what
he's done.
Right.
Okay, so right out of the gate,right?
We know that he is quote,unquote innocent.
Again, I'm assuming he has sinat some level, but he doesn't
(13:42):
walk in sin.
He's walking in a righteous wayand, just like all of us, we've
all fallen short.
But he's not continuing to doit.
He's living his life in arighteous manner, right?
So much so that God vouches forhis own character, for Job's
own character, and what we'refinding out is like the setup
here is that the suffering isnot a punishment for sin, it's a
(14:05):
test.
Right.
God's even you know sayingdirecting the adversary to Job
because of his faithfulness.
Which is crazy, and in fact heloses Job, loses everything, in
spite of his faithfulness.
Liz (14:22):
All of it.
Yeah, it was really intense.
Um, I mean even the falsecomfort of job's friends.
Uh, you know the first one.
I always say the first one'sname.
Weird, how do you say?
Elif elif as yeah, elif, as I'mso glad to roll off the tongue
we all of our boys names startwith the letter e and I'm so
glad we didn't name any of them.
Ben (14:41):
We could have pulled Eliphaz.
Liz (14:43):
Eliphaz.
What's up, Eliphaz?
But anyway, he said to Job inJob 4.7, he said who being
innocent has ever perished?
Whoa, and then Bildad, if youare pure and upright, surely he
would rouse himself for you.
And that was spoken to Job.
Ben (15:00):
These are his friends right , his friends trying to comfort
him, trying to comfort him.
Liz (15:03):
This to Job.
These are his friends, right,His friends trying to comfort
him.
Trying to comfort him, this isnot comfort, no.
And then Zophar says know thenthat God exacts of you less than
your guilt deserves.
That is crazy.
So what do those all have incommon?
Not good friends.
Ben (15:18):
Well, it's just that they all thought they all had this
kind of concept this theologythat suffering must be deserved.
Okay, so what you can take outof those three is that they had
in their minds Job.
You are going through thisordeal because of something you
have done.
Liz (15:36):
And that was not the case.
And you know, even his wife, Imean, she was like just die,
basically.
Ben (15:44):
First.
Liz (15:44):
God and die.
I mean mean this poor guy.
You know he boils on his body.
He was in pain he loseschildren.
Ben (15:51):
Yeah, he loses children, he loses possessions, he loses his
health, I mean everything.
He didn't lose his wife, though, well, benjamin but, but it
turns a corner.
Liz (16:02):
But you know, joe was, he had an honest lament, didn't he?
He really did.
Ben (16:07):
Yeah, I mean he has lament right, it's not that Job just
takes it and just is like ohyeah, everything's normal.
Liz (16:14):
Right.
Ben (16:15):
There is some wrestling that Job goes into and he
questions God directly.
He wants God to explain himself, right, and I don't think
that's necessarily sin.
I think, Job is at a placewhere he's like.
I know my character.
I know that I've livedrighteously.
(16:36):
Right.
God, I want to know, why am Igoing through this?
And so he puts God on trial, soto speak, and he also is able
to express his pain withoutabandoning his faith.
And he gives this longdiscourse about like the curses
of the day that he was born, andit's just like it's this poetic
(16:56):
.
And he's lamenting yes, and he'sdemanding of God to answer him,
but yet he's maintaining thisrelationship with God.
I think a lot of us would justbe like Job's wife and be like
hey man, I'm out, you know thisis not what I signed up for,
right, I don't believe in youanymore, but Job is like no.
I know God's character.
I'm putting him to the test.
Like why?
(17:17):
What is going on?
God and he's so he'smaintaining that relationship,
but how does God respond?
This is the crazy part.
Liz (17:25):
Yeah, it's pretty crazy because he basically, in
revealing himself to Job, he'snot explaining, but God never
explains the why, like he's just.
Ben (17:34):
That's so intense.
Liz (17:35):
Yeah, can you?
Ben (17:36):
imagine going through all the things that he did and then
it's like oh yeah, you don't getan answer.
I mean, you get an answer butyou don't get a why.
It's kind of what we do ourkids when they're like why we're
?
like because I said so.
Liz (17:48):
Because I said so.
Maybe that's where it all stemsfrom Job, or as people call it,
Job I'm just kidding Job, butno.
Instead, God reveals hischaracter and sovereignly, and
he asks Job if he is able to runthings even for a day.
I mean really, the Lord comesback.
Ben (18:03):
So he kind of puts Job on trial, right, like Job puts God
on trial, and then God's likewell, how about you?
Can you do what I do, right?
Liz (18:11):
Yeah, but you know, and of course Job cannot do what God
does.
I mean, it's beautiful how theLord responds to him, you know,
and Job's conclusion basicallyis he says my ears had heard of
you, but now my eyes have seenyou.
Ben (18:25):
Okay, time out, guys.
This is so nuts.
Okay, so, in the midst of thiscrazy suffering that I don't
think anybody has everexperienced, maybe before and
since, I don't know, we don'tknow.
Liz (18:37):
I mean, we have no idea.
Ben (18:38):
We don't know everybody in the world, but like, however, I
don't know of anybody who's evenlost all their children in one
day.
Maybe, maybe that's happened.
But then all your possessionsand then your health to like all
of that happening in the sametime period.
Yeah, it's crazy.
And his conclusion is that heknows God more.
He is better acquainted withGod.
(18:59):
He understands the Lord morehis form.
He has seen God.
He knows the experience thathe's gained from this ordeal.
It's something that transforms.
Right.
And he's never given the answerof the why, but he's left in
this place of understanding andit just blows your mind because
(19:22):
it's like maybe that was thewhole point is to take my eyes
off of my own suffering and putthem back on God.
Liz (19:29):
Yes, and I just want to say one of the reasons why we're
bringing this up and talkingabout this, so again like this,
is our one blessed mess.
A lot of times, when we'retalking about these different
subjects, is because these aredialogues or things that we're
walking through or have walkedthrough.
And we feel like we want toinvite whoever's listening to
this into the conversation.
So you know, we often kidaround and say you know, pretend
(19:51):
that you just had a cup ofcoffee with us or you just
finished a meal with us andwe're having a dessert and we're
talking about this.
And the reason why we'rebringing this up is because in
our community we have justwalked through a tremendous
amount of suffering and pain,unbelievable amounts In fact.
We've even had family membersreach out to us and asking hey,
(20:11):
how are you guys?
You're kind of at ground zero.
Right, because there's beenlet's go through it.
Ben (20:16):
Let's go through it, yeah.
Liz (20:17):
I mean, where do you want to start?
Ben (20:18):
Because I feel like there's so many things.
Just recently we had a shootingat the local college here.
Liz (20:23):
Yeah, we had at the university.
Ben (20:24):
Several people died there's tons of people that are
experiencing pain and loss andeven injury.
There was several that were incritical condition and, I think,
are pulling through, but we hada shooting like right here in a
local college.
Um, we had someone take hislife in the last couple of weeks
, yeah, and last couple of weekswe had a friend um, whose son
took his life We've had multiplepassings death.
Liz (20:46):
I mean like there's just another one that happened today,
and it's just like there's justgrief upon grief.
Um, I'm also thinking, you know, we brain know we've had two
friends with two of their.
Two of our friends, twodifferent kids had brain tumors
found out within two days apartand both had to go through brain
surgeries.
(21:07):
And you know, the one is goingto be doing chemo and radiation,
the other one I think it wasmalignant yeah.
And so it's okay, or other one.
I think it was malignant, yeah,and so it's okay, or benign.
Ben (21:16):
I say it benign.
Liz (21:17):
And, but you know, walking and we're close with those
families, so we have been inconstant connection with that,
you know, and then also with theshooting that just happened in
our city.
Ben (21:27):
Right.
Liz (21:28):
You know the, the first responders that were there, that
were on on the partner ofsomebody that we know actually
took down the the gunman.
Ben (21:38):
And then, and then, yeah.
Liz (21:40):
And then the friend that we have cuffed him and so they're
walking through, and so there'sjust like it.
And and then we know people whowere in the student union when
it happened.
You know people on campus Imean I was getting messages
before it even hit the socialspray right now, and so you know
cause they heard the gunshots,they were there and they're
reaching out for prayer andstudents.
And so it's just like um, ithas been like one thing after
(22:04):
another.
We had a family member who gotinto some trouble and recently,
you know, tangled with the law,like it's just like guys we're
talking, like within a couple ofweeks, like this hasn't even
been a full like it's just likeone, and we're being affected by
it closely.
Ben (22:19):
It's not just um it's like a season of pain.
Liz (22:22):
Yeah, it's like a season of pain, and so even family
members are reaching out to usand they're like, hey, how are
you?
Because we have been literallyin the trenches, on ground zero,
helping, caring loved onesthrough this, through prayer,
even practically taking kids,taking meals, calling, praying,
meeting, all the things thatneed to be done because we're in
(22:43):
community.
And so it brings up thisquestion about pain.
Yeah, it does, I mean, itreally does.
Ben (22:49):
It really does, and from what we can tell about why Job
went through what he did, weknow that it's not connected
necessarily to him deserving it,and so his restoration is that
deserved too.
I don't know.
I think there's some questionsthat are still left unanswered.
And you can read between thelines and you can try to
(23:11):
summarize, but I think the wholepoint of the book is that we
keep our eyes on God and we stayhumble before him, even in the
midst of suffering, and that'snot a popular message.
Liz (23:22):
No, it's not we want to know.
Ben (23:23):
We want to be able to justify our pain.
We want to be able to justifyour suffering.
We want to know there's apurpose for it.
Right.
But sometimes that purpose isjust to be humbled.
Liz (23:31):
Right, and he does do that.
Ben (23:33):
Yeah, but it's unpopular.
It is unpopular.
Liz (23:36):
Nobody wants to talk about that.
Ben (23:38):
But we want to dive into really quick just some of the
brain science behind the conceptof post-traumatic growth.
Liz (23:44):
Hold on, Ben.
You're going into brain scienceand you don't have your science
glasses on.
Ben (23:48):
Oh no, Maybe I should go switch out my glasses.
Liz (23:49):
No, we don't have time, we don't.
Ben (23:52):
We don't have time, I don't have my clear glasses on, which
Liz affectionately calls myscience glasses.
They look like goggles.
Liz (23:59):
But here he goes, he's going to dive into brain science
.
This is good.
This is really good.
Everybody wants to hear it.
Sorry for interrupting.
Ben (24:04):
That's okay.
So American PsychologyAssociation has found studies
have shown that 50 to 60% oftrauma survivors report positive
change.
Right, okay, and we'll get intosome of the why behind that.
But just know, like out of thegate, about half the people that
go through traumaticexperiences it can be used for
(24:27):
positive in their life, or atleast we can spin it so that way
there is positive change.
Does it mean that they wouldchoose it?
I don't think so, but you?
Liz (24:35):
mean choose, going through the trauma Sure they wouldn't
choose that.
But they're making the choiceto choose for it to be a
positive.
They're looking at it as a wayto and they're seeing that it
has had positive change in theirlife.
Yep.
Ben (24:48):
So there was two doctors that kind of did a little bit
more research into this area andthey came up with this acronym,
ptgi, which is post-traumaticgrowth inventory, okay, and so
they break it down a little bit.
It shows metrics around thepositive changes, the
psychological changes thathappen following traumatic
events, and those are in fivekey areas new possibilities
(25:09):
relating to others, key areas,new possibilities relating to
others, personal strength,spiritual change and
appreciation for life.
Okay, so those are the five keyfactors.
Liz (25:20):
For PTGI.
Ben (25:31):
PTGI.
Remember that.
So PTGI is modestly related tooptimism and extroversion, and
so basically what that means isthat when we go through these
experiences and we keep apositive outlook and we use it
to connect to others, then thatthose five factors are
strengthened.
There's a relationship, there'sthe positive that comes in
those five areas when we can seepositively and we can connect
(25:54):
with others through the pain.
Liz (25:55):
Now Philippians 4.8,.
That's what this says to me.
Ben (25:58):
Yeah.
Liz (25:59):
Think on these things.
Ben (26:00):
Yeah.
Liz (26:00):
And so science is just proving, yeah, and trauma and
pain is going to happen.
Ben (26:07):
It is.
Liz (26:08):
And so if we take the Bible for what it's saying.
Ben (26:11):
Right.
Liz (26:11):
Like science is basically saying this PDGI thing Sounds
hilarious.
That's basically what it'ssaying.
Right, like science isbasically saying this PDGI thing
Sounds hilarious.
That's basically what it'ssaying.
Ben (26:18):
Yeah, yeah, and some really interesting things.
Women tend to report morebenefits than men.
Liz (26:24):
Isn't that interesting?
Is it because we talk more?
Ben (26:27):
I think it's because you're more social creatures.
Liz (26:30):
We are Typically than men.
What does that mean?
Ben (26:32):
Well, I think you're using that extroversion part of it to
experience the positive that cancome in those five factors.
Liz (26:39):
So we're just super social.
Ben (26:41):
Yeah, yeah, and I think sometimes that works in favor of
people especially who's gonethrough events and can connect
to others.
Liz (26:50):
Well, and that's how women are wired?
No, it's true.
I mean if, like even we justtalked about all the things that
are going on in our community.
Ben (26:54):
Yeah.
Liz (26:54):
Like it's happening.
I just want to say somethingthat I was thinking about when
Jesus, you know, when Jesus wason the cross and he died and
they put him in the tomb.
I always think about all thosewomen and like somebody planned
the casserole, somebody wasgetting a meal plan going for
Mary, like there was like therewas, like they were on it.
You know it was the women werethe first ones to the tomb.
(27:16):
You know they had everythingwith them to come and and take
care of the body and he wasn'tthere, right.
So I just I'm not surprised insome ways, and that's just a
gift of how God has made women.
And we should own it, ladies,don't dismiss it.
So, ben you were, you own it,that I own it.
Ben (27:34):
I will own it, that you own it.
Liz (27:35):
Thank you.
This PTG, I think I don't knowwhere you're going with that.
I don't know, I just want youto own it.
Ben (27:40):
Real quick.
Also, people who haveexperienced these traumatic
events report more positivechange than new persons who have
never experienced extraordinaryevents.
Okay, that's interesting.
I think they're Right.
I mean, obviously you can lookat it two different ways, but if
at least 50% of people 50%greater are reporting positive
(28:02):
changes because of these crazyevents, these post-traumatic
events, then that means there'sa lot of people that can see the
benefit.
They can see that those eventsdo shape us.
Right they form us.
Right, it's almost like secondCorinthians, one, three and four
makes a lot of sense throughthis lens.
I'm just going to read itPraise be to God, the father of
(28:24):
our Lord Jesus Christ, thefather of compassion and the God
of all comfort, who comforts usin our troubles so that we can
comfort those who are in troubleany trouble with the comfort we
ourselves received from God.
I feel like this verse is kindof illustrated with some of
those findings when we gothrough our troubles and God
(28:45):
comforts us, we can then in turncomfort others, and I feel like
that's that extroversion pieceof the PDGI and seeing those
five key factors that can becomealive in people after these
events, and a lot of it has todo with reaching out in
community.
Liz (29:03):
Absolutely, and I'm just thinking how children a lot of
times.
What happens when kids getscars and they hurt their knee
and they're like oh, look at myknee.
And then they're like look atmy elbow and they're showing you
all their scars of where theyhad hurt themselves.
And so to me, I think aboutwhen we go through trials and
tribulations and pain andsuffering there's wounding, but
(29:23):
the wounds heal.
Ben (29:24):
There is and if you heal with other people, there's
strong identities that form.
Absolutely In fact there's evenstudies that show that when men
are off in war, so this is foryou men out here.
We talked about some ladiesthat got some points.
That's hilarious With the guyswhen they experience intensities
in war there is a strong superstrong bond that is formed In
(29:47):
fact it's so strong thatsometimes people even report.
Men often report depression ofnot feeling that in society when
they come back from war.
So, they want to go re-sign upjust to experience that bonding.
Liz (29:59):
Yeah, isn't it interesting when you get into that?
But I was just thinking aboutthe wounds, and so it's talking
about the comfort we ourselvesreceive from God, and so we're
able to share.
Look at this wound, even thoughthis happened to me, but look
at how it healed.
So I know you're in pain rightnow and I know you're suffering
right now.
I've been there, you know, andeven when maybe we don't
(30:23):
understand fully their pain, butbecause we have experienced the
pain that we can really comeand be empathetic.
Ben (30:30):
And it's.
Liz (30:31):
It's so good to have that empathy, to be empathetic, and
it's so good to have thatempathy.
We talk about that a lot withour children because they don't
always understand the persondown the street and why they're
suffering and what's going on,and so instilling that in them.
But when they're dealing withtrials we're like remember this.
Ben (30:47):
Do you remember that?
Liz (30:49):
Now they can relate a little bit better, but it's so
real.
Ben (30:52):
It.
Liz (30:52):
So real.
It is real and I feel like youhave a story, Mr Ben I do I have
a story?
Ben (30:58):
I want to.
I want to be a little bitvulnerable here.
I want to talk about my painstory, and we all have stories.
We all have pain that we'vegone through.
Mine spans more than a decadeand I'm still.
I'm still living it.
I'm still living it, I'm stillin it and I'm still expecting to
come through it 100%.
I'm not there yet.
Right.
But I do want to just talk aboutmy story and about the pain
(31:20):
that I've experienced and eventhe mistakes that I made through
walking it out and so jumpinginto it back in 2013,.
I was playing disc golf, thecrazy contact sport of disc golf
.
No, it's not.
There's no contact.
It's not.
Liz (31:36):
There's no contact.
It's literally you and a disc.
Ben (31:39):
Yeah, me, and a disc and a basket.
So if you run into the basket Iguess maybe you'll have contact
.
Liz (31:42):
But you weren't just playing, you were like playing
no I was playing.
Ben (31:45):
I was playing too much.
I was going almost every day,not quite, but I was going maybe
three or four times a week andI just started out with my own
business, and so I was trying tolearn schedules.
Liz (31:57):
We need to save that for another episode.
We do.
Yeah, there's a lot to unpackthere.
Ben (32:01):
But basically I was, when you first started out, feeling
the freedom of my entrepreneurjourney, and so I was like, yeah
, I'm gonna play disc golf everyand then working until Every
day during lunch.
And then spending later, laterevenings getting this stuff done
.
That I would have gotten done.
So, anyways, I was out, I wasplaying a lot and I was throwing
one day and I was throwingforehand, so it was a flicking
(32:25):
motion.
You really load up yourshoulder when you throw that way
, and so I'd learned to throwthat way.
It wasn't the correct way, um,or not the most common way, and
when I did one day I feltsomething give in the back of my
shoulder, in my back muscles.
It was almost like they seizedup and it scared me.
I was like whoa, what is that?
It didn't necessarily hurt, butit was just.
It felt funky and it felt likesomething was wrong.
So I threw again and the samething, same sensation happened,
(32:47):
and so I was like oh man, I needto stop.
I think I might've pulledsomething, so I'll just take a
month off.
So I did that.
I chilled out for a couple ofweeks and then went back and
started throwing again and itdidn't really hurt.
And so I started playingregularly again and I started
throwing other ways, justbecause it felt more comfortable
.
But it started a journey forabout three years where I was
(33:11):
experiencing different pains,different discomforts.
I was even having digestionirregularity and I was being
sensitive to certain foods and Iwas having ocular migraines
Pain all night long.
Liz (33:26):
Yeah, and so just, just all kinds of crazy stuff.
You would wake up in the middleof the night and be like, hit
me, hit me.
And I'm like hit, hit righthere Hard as you can try to hit
and I'm like hit you, I'm likeyou need help, honey, and he's
like dig your elbow in.
I mean, you would just be in somuch pain and we were trying
over the counter medicine.
Ben (33:45):
We were trying all the things.
Yep, trying different things.
We tried different diet.
I wasn't quite sure.
Sure, because I remember havingthat event and feeling
something wrong, but it wasn'tnecessarily painful, and so I
kind of just dismissed it aslike, oh yeah, that was just a
pulled muscle.
Liz (33:59):
Because there was digestion and you were having headaches.
Yeah, I was having headaches,ocular migraines.
Ben (34:03):
my vision was getting weary , so we were thinking.
Liz (34:05):
I mean, we were thinking like maybe you have a tumor
cancer.
Ben (34:08):
I was thinking, what's it?
Lyme's disease yeah, we werethinking all kinds of things.
Liz (34:12):
You know, but he would have excruciating pain here.
Now we understand, because weunderstand the anatomy of the
body and the event of it, butit's been a journey.
Ben (34:20):
It has been a journey.
And so we got.
We finally saw someone.
We saw a chiropractor who waslike hey man, you're always
really tight on your right side,you should go get it checked
out, you should go get an MRI.
So I did.
This was about three or fouryears later and I got it checked
out.
And they saw that I had torn mylabrum in my right shoulder so I
did a surgery and the surgerywas unsuccessful, and so this is
(34:43):
the part where it's reallyintense.
So I was rehabbing on a tornlabrum going through the PT, but
the surgery wasn't successfuland I had no idea why it was so
painful, but it was like reallybad and I got suicidal.
And so I haven't told a wholelot of people that my wife knows
and a few other people, but Iwas really having suicidal
thoughts.
I was like I don't know if Ican continue doing this, Like
(35:07):
just lifting my arm, just doingsome of the day-to-day stuff is
really painful and there wasjust issues in my neck where
blood wasn't flowing through myhead correctly.
Liz (35:18):
You're in pain.
Yeah, I was in pain and youdidn't see a way out.
I didn't.
Ben (35:22):
I didn't see a way out, and there were a few things that
would help, here and there, justa little bit but nothing would
fully relieve the pain, and so Istarted making bad decisions, I
started doing things that Ishouldn't have done and I just
went down this journey, and alot of it had to do with just
not being accountable and justtrying to numb the pain, and so
(35:44):
I ended up doing things thatwere just bad and got into
addictive behaviors.
And so that went on for sometime.
I got another surgery, thingsgot better and I finally got
some counseling and overcame theaddictions.
And my wife was amazing.
Through all of it she stuckwith me and just worked with me
(36:05):
and it was really humbling.
At the end of the day, I cansay that I was really humbled
because I thought I could do itby myself.
I thought I could just pullmyself up by my bootstraps and
just keep moving forward and itwasn't the case.
No, it wasn't it wasn't the case.
I had to reach out, I had to behonest, I had to get help.
(36:26):
Yeah, you did.
And it even involvedprofessional help.
Yes, I did, and so a lot ofpeople just don't have a grid
for that.
They're just like, oh well, youknow, just confess your sins,
you'll be fine, and it's like,well, yeah, but you know,
there's also professionals outthere that can help and can deal
with the trauma and can dealwith the addictive lifestyles.
And so I went down that path.
I'm really thankful that I did,and I know I'm not totally
(36:49):
healed yet, but I know that Godis using the pain to teach me so
many things.
Yes, he is.
And a lot of it is humility.
I mean just like Job.
Liz (37:01):
I don't necessarily have an answer, I don't know, the why
behind it, but I do know thatGod is faithful and I do see his
hand leading me through eventhe restoration piece of it and
even if I'm not healed, I stillfeel changed and transformed you
are, and as your wife watchingyou walk through this, I would
have to say I'm thankful for thejourney that we've had because
(37:24):
of the man that you've become,and it has been hard.
Ben (37:28):
It was very dark.
Liz (37:30):
Sometimes it was very dark, especially when you were going
through the season of wanting totake your own life, and
actually the Lord was the onewho spoke to me.
Ben (37:39):
That's crazy.
I didn't tell Liz I was keepingit all to myself and that's a
problem.
I mean, I don't know if it'sthe rugged individualism that
our culture loves so much orwhat, but I just thought I could
be the big man and not share,and didn't work out too well.
That's not how it works, though.
It's not how it works.
Liz (37:57):
And so the Lord and his sweetness just gently like
revealed to me what was going onand when I confronted you,
fortunately you were honest andjust that, and so getting
through that was because Ibasically told you if you take
your life, I'm coming and I'mwaking you up, and then I'm
taking your life.
Ben (38:16):
I'm going to resurrect you and take you again.
Liz (38:17):
I was like look, you cannot do that.
You cannot leave me with sixkids without you, you know,
because it's hard it is it'shard?
And you know you are humanRight.
Right, you're not a superhuman.
No, you are human, nobody isRight and the Bible says we will
face trials and tribulations.
I just didn't know it was goingto be this in my life.
Right and then, on top of it,then, the addictions and the
(38:40):
things that came from the pain.
Ben (38:42):
Right.
Liz (38:45):
And you have bit the bullet and you have made every effort
possible to change.
And I see it in your life.
I see the fragrance of Christin your life, I see the hard
work that you're doing and I seebehind the scenes.
And we've grown closer.
Ben (39:02):
Yeah, this is true.
Liz (39:04):
Because we have this wound.
Ben (39:07):
Yeah.
Liz (39:08):
And we do have a message to share and I know we're just
kind of grazing over all of thisjust a little bit.
There will be days that we willgo deeper we will go much
deeper.
Ben (39:17):
Yeah.
Liz (39:17):
And there's not many people who know about all of it.
No, and so.
But you know, I'm proud of youand I'm standing on the
sidelines cheering you on.
But I also know our heavenlyfather is standing on the cheer,
on the sidelines, and he ischeering you on.
Yeah, but you know, there'sstill the question mark, because
your shoulder is still hurting.
Ben (39:37):
Right, still in pain Right.
Liz (39:38):
And we have done lots of things.
Therapies I mean, I meanacupuncture, I don't think
there's ARP, arp.
Chiropractic.
Ben (39:47):
Yeah, I don't think there's Injections.
Two surgeries yes.
Liz (39:50):
I don't think there's any stone that we haven't overturned
Right and for the first time.
Chronic pain is hard.
A drug is not going to heal it.
Ben (40:02):
No.
Liz (40:02):
Right Nothing, it's our thought process.
Ben (40:07):
You read.
Liz (40:07):
You have to like you read about the study Right.
That's true for you it is.
You have to make a decision.
Ben (40:13):
I had to see the positive in it.
And as soon as I started takingthe me centeredness out of it
Right and got accountable andgot honest with you and then I
started seeing a path out Right.
Right and to where it was like.
Not about me, not about my pain, but about the transformative
quality that God can have inrelationship with me in the
(40:36):
midst of the pain.
Liz (40:37):
Right, right and in the midst of all of that, like here
you are today and you stillexperience pain.
Ben (40:45):
Yeah.
Liz (40:46):
Like you're still even this week.
I mean guys honestly like itwas really tough.
Ben (40:51):
I didn't know we were going to be able to film today
because I was pretty bad offyesterday.
Liz (40:54):
But thankfully, you know, by the Lord's grace like I'm
able to be here and talk withyou guys and so, yeah, it's good
and there's also a side ofgrief, too, because you've been
in pain for well over a decadethat, like you, weren't able to
throw the ball with the kids.
Ben (41:08):
Right.
Liz (41:09):
You weren't able to be outside with them.
Ben (41:11):
Yeah.
Liz (41:11):
You know, like taking them camping, you can't wear a
backpack.
Right, like there's so manythings, and so, in a way, there
was a handicap that was going on.
Ben (41:20):
There was and I think a part of that is a lot of the
disappointment that I wasleaning into.
Right.
Like I felt abandoned, I felthandicapped and I felt like I
didn't deserve it and thosethings, you know, those are real
emotions, but they're allcentered around me.
You know, it was like I wasonly looking at the me aspect.
I wasn't necessarilyconsidering Liz, especially the
(41:40):
suicidal thoughts, you know.
I wasn't thinking about what itwould do to her or what it
would do to my kids, and so Ireally started I think the Lord
started really unpacking whatwas there and the selfish
attitudes that I have, and Ithink he used my pain to really
get me to see how selfish I am.
I know that sounds kind of cruel, but it's not.
(42:01):
It's actually mercy.
I feel so alive now that theLord spotlighted those issues.
And I'm not perfect.
Obviously you know that youlive with me, but I feel like
I'm much different.
I'm in a different place in mylife and I think I'm honestly
happier than I've been in areally long time, a really long
(42:23):
time.
Liz (42:24):
And it's evident.
I see the fruit, I'm up closeand personal and I see the fruit
and there is a markeddifference.
So what's funny is before, evenwhen you're in pain and all the
things that were going on, Imean I could see that there was
this struggle, but still somehowyou're able to cope through it
all and fake, because if you hadasked me, I would have told you
(42:46):
our marriage is great, becausewe do have a good marriage.
We've always had a goodmarriage.
But on this side of all of it,the realization, the truth of
everything coming out on thetable, our marriage is deeper.
Ben (43:01):
Our love is deeper and there is true connection that.
Liz (43:05):
I could have.
I always thought, but it wasn'tthe real like.
I still felt it wasn't in syncand now it's in sync.
Ben (43:12):
It's amazing how that works .
It is God is using and has usedmy pain to even bring us closer
together, and that's amazingand I think there's some
takeaways, right, liz?
I mean there's like these aregood antidotes, but I think
that's the common thread withall of this is that you know
whether it's our friend walkingthrough the death of her husband
(43:35):
or even experiencing you know achild that has a tumor and a
very intense spot.
Yeah, it's coming back,cancerous Even just our local
community with a shooter, anactive shooter and people lost
their lives, yeah, and wounded.
There's never a lost opportunity, I think, for the Lord to move,
(43:58):
and that's one of the takeawaysthat we have is that God
doesn't waste our pain.
Liz (44:05):
No, he doesn't.
And it says in Romans 8.
28,.
And I love this scripture.
It's one that whenever I see 8,28, I always think.
Romans 8, 28, which says and weknow that in all things God
works for the good of those wholove him, who have been called
according to his purpose.
And then in second Corinthiansone, verses three through four,
it says praise be to the God andfather of our Lord, jesus
(44:27):
Christ, the father of compassionand the God of all comfort, who
comforts us in all our troubles, so that we can comfort those
who are in any trouble with thecomfort we ourselves receive
from God.
It goes back to that wounds.
Look at this wound, look atthat wound.
Ben (44:43):
And I think that's really cool because it's almost like
our pain can be a ministry toothers.
Liz (44:49):
Absolutely.
Ben (44:50):
And if you think about it like the resurrected Jesus, he
didn't have this just completelynew, perfect, transformed body.
He had scars.
Yeah, they were almost liketrophies, if you think about it.
Yes, because even inRevelations it talks about a
lamb that was slain and it'slike well, what is that?
(45:11):
How is that symbol supposed tobe, this champion?
Or how do we value this slainpart, these scars that Jesus
carries?
What does that mean?
And I think it means that hecan identify with us in our
suffering.
Liz (45:30):
Absolutely, absolutely.
You know, I'm just thinkingabout Paul.
He was beat up a lot.
I wonder if he has his scars.
Ben (45:37):
I'm sure he does Like will his face be mangled?
Liz (45:39):
You know what I mean?
I don't know.
I mean, you're in yourresurrected glorified body and
obviously Jesus is Jesus.
So the lamb that was slain, soit's Neil Peart's hand.
I wonder, I wonder, I wonder ifmaybe our resurrected bodies
might have some trophies.
I have no idea, I don't know.
Ben (45:55):
Who knows, but I do know this, though that God is present
in our suffering.
Liz (45:58):
Yes, he is, I've experienced that yes.
Ben (46:00):
Right, I've felt the Lord.
There were times where I pushedhim away and then there was
times where I pushed him awayand then there was times where I
welcomed him in and I canhonestly say I'm so grateful for
the times that I welcomed himin, because I'm a different
person when I have done that.
In.
Psalms 34, 18,.
The Lord is close to thebrokenhearted and saves those
who are crushed in spirit.
I know I felt that way.
It wasn't a place of strength,it was a place of vulnerability
(46:24):
and I didn't even want to behonest about it.
Place of vulnerability and Ididn't even want to be honest
about it.
But when I was and when theLord reached out to me, even
using my wife, even I felt thelove of the Lord through Liz,
and I know that he's close tothe brokenhearted.
I've experienced it myself.
In Isaiah 43 too.
When you pass through thewaters, I will be with you, and
when you pass through the rivers, they will not sweep over you.
(46:46):
When you walk through the fire,you will not be burned and the
flames will not set you ablaze.
It's the promise of hispresence.
We don't have a promise ofexplanation.
We don't have a promise as tothe why.
Liz (46:58):
No, we do not.
We do have a promise ofpresence.
We do.
And this scripture Isaiah 43, 2, is actually the scripture that
one of our friends, her son,who has the cancerous tumor that
they removed and he's going tobe doing chemo and radiation and
we just got a text messageright before we started this
that they're going to be puttingin the port and this young man
(47:19):
that we love so much.
I may cry but we've done a lotof life with this family, but
this is the scripture that hasbeen the one that she's been
holding onto for the last coupleof weeks and I I really didn't
know that that was her scriptureand one day I was praying for
her and the Lord highlighted thescripture and I sent it to her.
She's like Liz, this is the oneand she had like one of those
coloring books that you color inthat has scriptures and things
(47:41):
and it was the actual thatscripture and she'd been
coloring it in the hospital, youknow, before his surgery, after
his surgery.
And so it's so true, he's withyou, he is for you, he's not
going to like you.
Ben (47:56):
And there's redemptive purposes, even in our suffering.
You know God uses it for goodand you know there's just
there's some things that we justdon't want to experience.
We push away.
I've done it, I don'tunderstand it and maybe I don't
deserve it, and, like Job, wekind of try to put God on trial,
(48:17):
and I think that's the wrongexpression.
Liz (48:22):
The wrong heart posture.
Well, it's the wrong heartposture, but we're human.
We're human and we are going todo it.
And we're going to do it, weare Well it's the wrong heart
posture, but we're human.
Ben (48:29):
We're human and we are going to do it and we're going
to do it.
We are and it's okay.
I think that's part of it isjust telling yourself it's okay
to make some mistakes.
It's okay to be angry, to bemad, but direct it back to God,
because God is going to help youfind the resolve that you need.
Absolutely you know, and even asJob did like he wrestled with
it he had relationship with theLord, even in the midst of the
(48:51):
most crazy suffering thatmankind's ever seen.
Maybe I don't know, but hedidn't abandon his relationship
with God.
And I think that was part ofsome of the problem that I had
is that I turned to other thingsinstead of the Lord, and when I
turned back to God, I feel likethe Lord really used that and
really helped me find a way backto him.
Liz (49:11):
He did Absolutely, and I've just been on the sidelines
watching.
Ben (49:15):
Cheering it on Yep.
Yes.
Liz (49:18):
So the cross as God's ultimate answer to suffering.
Ben (49:22):
Yeah, yeah.
Like God, he took our place andhe bore the brunt of the full
suffering Right, and so he canidentify with us.
He can identify with us in oursuffering.
Liz (49:33):
Because you know, christ entered or he enters into our
pain rather than explaining itaway.
And in Colossians 1.24,.
It says Paul's mysteriousstatement about basically
filling up what is lacking inChrist's afflictions.
Yeah, that is a really crazyverse.
Ben (49:51):
If you go, I recommend you go look that up in Colossians
124.
There's just this kind ofinteresting statement about
filling up what was lacking inChrist's afflictions, and he's
talking about himself andhimself experiencing afflictions
, and so what does that mean?
I don't know.
I think that's part of some ofthe mystery.
I think it's part of some ofthe expectation as believers,
(50:13):
and especially as apostles, thatthey would suffer many things,
and there's a promise that Godis gonna be with us in the midst
of it.
But there's also kind of this Idon't know if you'd call it a
promise or an expectation, Idon't know how you frame it, but
it's coming, suffering will bethere.
Liz (50:30):
It's in the Bible.
You should be expecting it.
Ben (50:36):
Yes, you can't avoid it.
You can't avoid it as much aswe want prosperity, as much as
prosperity is in the Bible.
So is suffering.
So it's like two sides of thesame coin God gives and God
takes away, just like Job said.
Liz (50:44):
It must be the name of the Lord that takes away, just like
Job said, it's right to be thename of the Lord.
That's exactly what happens.
So what are some practicalsteps, so practical steps.
Ben (50:50):
I mean, this is something that we just don't do well
enough in Western culture.
We don't have a theology aroundlament, especially as a
biblical practice, as part of Idon't know if you call it
spiritual disciplines, but aspart of our faith expression, we
have to lament, we have to layout, just like David did in the.
(51:13):
Psalms there is lament andthere's something I think that's
beautiful.
There's a verse that talksabout God collecting the tears
of his saints and so even Godcares about our suffering and
it's something that he collects.
That's crazy, right.
Who is this Lord, who is thisGod that even has a bottle for
(51:34):
our tears and keeps it as amonument?
I mean, there's just so muchthat goes into suffering.
There's so much that God caresabout the brokenhearted, about
the contrite in spirit.
Go and look that up.
This is massively a part ofGod's character, absolutely.
And if we don't talk about this, if we don't explain that the
(51:55):
Lord is with, very close, verywith, and even talks about how
he dwells, and.
Isaiah talks about how he dwellson high and also with the
broken and the contrite spirit.
And so when we lament and weturn to God in our suffering and
we pour out our lament, even asa song, as praise I know that
(52:16):
sounds weird and we just don'tdo it enough in church, but
personally when you do that,there's just something of an
identity that forms when you gothrough something with the Lord
and you're communicating withGod in the midst of it.
There is a strong bond thatforms Just like those brothers
in arms that are in war together.
(52:37):
If you're with the Lord andyou're facing those trials,
those facing those tribulations,and you keep your faith, you
keep the promises that theLord's given you.
There's just something that isformed that I don't think is
formed any other way.
That's right.
And so, even in the midst ofcommunity, right, god tells us
in Romans 12, 15, sorry, paultells us in Romans 12, 15, mourn
(52:59):
with those who mourn.
Right, we rejoice with thosewho rejoice and weep with those
who weep.
So again, we're not necessarilygoing to find the explanation,
but I think we can find apurpose even without explanation
.
We can find a purpose thatdoesn't require an explanation.
We can find humility, we canfind being able to then minister
(53:24):
to others.
We can allow God to use thoseevents, use those pains, to
transform us into somethingbeautiful.
Liz (53:32):
Well, it's finding purpose in it.
Yeah, it's finding purpose, andI'm just thinking too that I
mean, this has been a greatconversation about suffering and
pain, and we knew this wasgoing to be a heavy conversation
, but I'm just thinking thatwhen there are those that are
going, those that are goingthrough pain and suffering
(53:54):
sometimes even me being thatpositive.
Patty will just be like well,pull up your bootstraps and have
the mind of Christ and praisehim in the midst of it, when
really, like Ecclesiastes says,there's a time for mourning.
Ben (54:03):
Yes.
Liz (54:03):
There's a time for dancing, and so I think when we're
seeing those that are sufferingor walking through it, like
grief there's, like all thesestages of grief, there's studies
on it.
It comes at all different times.
We've been walking with a closefriend that lost her husband
and um, you know they have threelittle ones and so, you know,
walking with her through that,and I, you know, I lost my dad.
(54:25):
You know what 14 years ago, andstill grief comes at different
times and um, but you know,suffering with pain, chronic
pain, uh, there's just so much,and so I I feel that one of the
things mourn with those whomourn that is something that is
beautiful.
Ben (54:43):
Yes, you have empathy for people having empathy.
That is true, so I have to saythat I have more empathy for
people in pain than I've ever inmy life and I sometimes I would
even brush people off, like, oh, here's this chronic person
that says they've got thisproblem.
Maybe it's just in their head,maybe there's a hypochondriac.
I used to think I was ahypochondriac.
I would.
I would turn to liz and be likeam I a hypochondriac?
(55:03):
What is going on with me?
Liz (55:04):
I'm like you're too logical to be a hyperchondriac right
now.
Ben (55:07):
Yeah.
But, I mean going a decade withpain almost every day.
Liz (55:12):
It's more than a decade, by the way.
Yeah, more than a decade.
Ben (55:15):
It's true, more than a decade 12 years, 13 years, 13
years.
Yeah, Just man, I can tell you Ihave so much more empathy for
someone who's going through pain.
I'm like, yeah, and I don'tknow that I would have gotten it
any other way.
Liz (55:30):
I know, I just wish we didn't have to do it all, but we
are.
Ben (55:34):
Right.
Liz (55:34):
Trials and tribulations.
Ben (55:35):
Yeah, count it all joy.
Liz (55:36):
Count it, all joy.
Ben (55:37):
So wow, what a conversation this has been, we are here,
it's a blessed mess, it's a oneblessed mess, it's our one, bm
Ben, said it's our big BM, ourbig BM.
Liz (55:50):
Well, gosh, thank you for being a part of our one blessed
mess today, and don't forget tosubscribe like heart share with
a friend that maybe needsencouragement.
Maybe you know somebody who'swalking through pain and
suffering and they just don'tfeel like anybody understands.
Maybe this episode would be ablessing to them.
Our prayer is that God usesthis for his glory, and if it is
(56:12):
something that's touching youor you're witnessing it, we
would love to hear from you.
Ben (56:17):
Yeah, reach out.
Liz (56:18):
Reach out.
We'll pray for you, absolutely.
We are so thankful that you aretuning in to us today and also
follow us on Instagram orFacebook.
Our handle is our one numericone blessed mess.
We try to upload videos thereand some funny stories and
things.
So, you know, do, do subscribe,whether you're watching this,
(56:40):
listening however it may be, butuntil next time we see each
other, what we love to say isembrace your beautiful mess,
because if our mess is blessedand can be blessed, then what
then?
Then so can yours, then so canyours have a great day.
Welcome to Our One Blessed Mess.
This is Ben and Liz, and we'rehere sharing our story of how we
raised six kids that we had ineight years, managing our
entrepreneurial home with twobusinesses, homeschooling and
currently navigating life withfour teenagers plus seven, two
dogs and two more kids, akagoats goats we've got some goats
(00:29):
.
We got the goat life.
Yes, we have goat life.
That actually should be like ona t-shirt or something.
People who have other goatsthey understand.
It's like people with chickens,they understand oh yeah there is
such a thing as chicken math,or is there such a thing as goat
math?
Ben (00:41):
I don't know, how does that work?
I well, chicken math is like you, school me, school me in the
goat math.
Liz (00:47):
Well, chicken math is like it's a joke among other people
who have chickens that you startout with maybe a few chickens
but before you know it, you endup with like multiple hens like
rabbits yes, I guess likerabbits we have not gotten into
rabbit yeah, but goats, here weare with two little boy goats
and they are fun and energeticand very cute when they run
(01:10):
around.
Yeah, it is pretty cute, it'sreally cute.
But with that being said, youknow we have all that just to
basically keep our lifeinteresting.
But today's conversation topicis about what?
Ben (01:22):
Today we're going to talk about something that is not like
the most I don't know joyfulthing.
Liz (01:29):
No, it's not, it really isn't, it's kind of a little bit
of a downer, because it's pain.
Ben (01:34):
That's what we're going to talk about.
Liz (01:36):
We were going through this and talking about it, I said,
ben, I don't think this is avery lighthearted conversation.
Ben (01:43):
It's not a lighthearted conversation, no.
Liz (01:45):
But the truth is is every single one of us walk through
this.
Ben (01:47):
We need it though.
Liz (01:48):
We do need it we need to talk about it.
And you cannot escape this.
Ben (01:51):
No, you can't, there's no way.
Liz (01:53):
You can't Think your way through it.
Away from it.
Ben (01:58):
I mean you can think your way through it.
You can't go around it.
Liz (02:02):
Okay, he's being funny.
So in my business, when I wasworking with a lot of women, we
would say I will let no one pushmy buttons.
And basically we say I'll goover, I'll go under, I'll go
through any obstacle that comesin my way.
But you always say it wrong oh,can't go over, it, can't.
Ben (02:18):
I'm like that is not what it is, you gotta go through it.
Liz (02:20):
Yeah, you.
Ben (02:21):
Oh great.
It's a good thing, okay, well,speaking of pain, that was
painful, yeah it was painful.
Okay.
So this question, right, isabout suffering, right, and the
question is is God worthy of ourpain?
Is he?
You know, we often say God isworthy of our praise, he's
worthy of our worship, he'sworthy of our lives.
(02:41):
But I don't know.
Very few of us get to thatpoint where we're like is he
worthy of our pain?
And we can have a definite yesbehind that because it's hard.
It is hard and I think sometimeswe have bad theology around
pain, Like why would a good Godallow bad things to happen?
Is suffering a sign ofsomething else?
Liz (03:03):
That is deep because I have to admit there have been times
that I've judged other peoplewho are going through pain as if
like well, maybe it's becauseof X, y and Z.
Ben (03:13):
Yeah, you think it's like a sign.
Oh yeah, because you've donethat.
It's a sign.
It's indicative that there'ssomething else going on.
One thing if, like, they havebeen living in a certain
lifestyle and it's like, well,you know, yeah in a certain
lifestyle and it's like, well,you know, yeah, reaping what you
sow, yeah, yeah, but yeah, likewe're very quick to just
associate suffering with, maybe,something that is completely
bad, or or deserving yep, andand sometimes we don't even
(03:36):
understand the meaning behindpain, right, and you know, just
like attributing it to somethingelse or just being a sign for
something else.
I'm thinking of signs, I'mthinking of a sign that you came
across one time with the kidsOkay.
Yeah, political sign.
Oh, a political sign, and I'mthinking of when you saw it and
(03:58):
you stopped.
Oh, this is so funny, and a kidwas having some pain at the
moment because he had to go peeso badly.
Yes, and you stopped to let himout of the car.
Liz (04:09):
Hold on, hold on.
I got to back up, so I was onthe phone with one of my clients
.
Ben (04:14):
Yeah.
Liz (04:14):
And we had just left another home and they actually
had chickens.
This is before we had ourchickens.
Ben (04:20):
There you go.
Liz (04:21):
So this friend of mine was like bring your kids over.
Before we had our chicken.
So we she, this friend of minewas like bring your kids over,
they can see all of our chickens.
We have baby chicks.
So I took all my kids over andactually, ironically, they had
goats.
Oh my gosh Anyway.
And so we go and we do this,and we see the chickens and see
the goats.
And as we're driving home, asalways somebody has to go to the
bathroom, and at this time wehad the little minivan and so
(04:41):
you could open the doors fromthe push button.
And so I pulled over on theside of the road because it was
like a very important point inthe conversation and I had the
kids on with watching a movie.
But I was like all right, I'mjust going to pull over, they
can sit there and watch thismovie, and I'm going to get out
on the side of the road andfinish this conversation.
Well, as I'm on thisconversation, unfortunately it's
(05:02):
like we're a T in the road,like the road that we turned on
T'd into a major road.
So I was kind of off the majorroad and all of a sudden the
door opens and a kid sticks outtheir head and says Mom, mom, I
got to go pee, I have to go pee.
And I muted the phone whilethis person's talking and I'm
like what?
And they're like I have to pee,really bad.
And I'm like, ok, just get outand pee on the tire.
(05:24):
Well, they didn't hear me saythat because it was a boy, and
I'm like, you know, you don'twant them to be visible.
And I'm trying to hurry up thiscall with this person so I
could get.
We're not very far from wherethere could be a bathroom and
what happens?
All of a sudden, this child.
Now, you guys, this is 2016.
And this is when there were thepresidential elections
(05:48):
happening, and so at thisparticular spot that I was at,
not too far from me, was all ofthese political signs, and so my
child gets out and begins topee on a political sign.
Now, they don't know what'sgoing on and I'm on the phone
and I'm trying to wrap up thiscall, you know, because it was
very important, like right atthat moment, and the timing was
off, and so I had to pull overand take the call and I thought
(06:10):
the kids were fine watching amovie because they were all in
their car seats, and insteadthat child starts peeing on the
sign and I'm like muting thecall, asking their horn and like
whoa, yeah.
I'm like no, no, no, no, youknow.
And then, like in between theperson talking to me, I'm like
I'm muting.
(06:30):
I'm like yeah, yeah, muting,I'm like get back in the van.
What are you doing?
I said you could pee rightoutside the door, not on the
sign, not on the sign.
Well then that kid goes in andthen all of a sudden another
head pops out, the van dooropens Mom, I really have to go
to the bathroom.
I really have to go to thebathroom.
I'm like, okay, but just goright screaming, pee on the sign
(06:53):
, pee on the sign, pee on thesign.
And so literally whoever that Idon't even remember who the kid
is they're peeing on anothersign.
And then, of course, people aredriving by, you know, honking
(07:16):
their horns.
It was terrible.
I'm like this is not happening.
What just happened?
Ben (07:21):
Wow.
Yeah, it was awful who's therole model for these kids?
It's boys.
Liz (07:27):
It was boys it obviously unbelievable their father,
because it's not me.
I don't have that body part,and you know yeah well anyway,
you know, and when you havelittle ones and they're doing
the pp dams like you just yougotta make it happen.
That's real pain right thereyeah, and this phone call was
only, like you know, in themidst of it was like maybe eight
minutes.
You know, it was like a reallyquick thing, but it was like one
right after the other, I'mthinking good.
(07:48):
Lord.
So, anyway, this has nothing todo with pain but I guess they
were in pain.
Yeah, I guess, so yeah.
Ben (08:01):
But that's not what we're talking about today, but a
little bit.
We, you know we're obviously wewant to qualify, we're not
experts and we just have thelife that we've lived and some
of the antidotes that we canshare.
But we do feel like especiallythe Western church we just don't
have a great grasp on pain.
Maybe that's because we don'tsuffer persecution on a regular
(08:25):
basis.
Liz (08:27):
We haven't had war on our country and our land in a long
time.
Ben (08:31):
I mean, it's been what?
Liz (08:32):
since the Civil War.
So we haven't, we're not, wartorn.
Yes, this is true.
Maybe.
Ben (08:37):
So we just, you know, we have an aversion of pain and
again it's not, I mean, it's notright or wrong, but we just
don't.
We don't have the experience,and so a lot of times we turn to
the prosperity side of thegospel.
Right.
And we focus on that piece of itand then we preach the
prosperity gospel, and sothere's some things that can
(08:59):
kind of get a little distorted.
If we're only hearing about theprosperous side of the gospel,
then we can start equating painwith something that is
anti-biblical.
And I want to just pause thereand say that is a misconception.
And some of the misconceptionsthat we can have is that
obedience equals comfort, thatkind of prosperity gospel.
(09:23):
A lot of times we get that likeif we're obeying, then we'll be
, comfort We'll have, we'll livea comfortable life, we won't
have any pain.
Liz (09:30):
Right, and unfortunately I have been in that pool swimming
there.
I thought that too.
Keep going, keep going.
Another one Just reading mymail Keep going.
Ben (09:38):
Another one is this implicit promise that faith will
shield us from suffering right.
So, there's that obedience partequals comfort.
There's that if we have enoughfaith, we won't have suffering.
And then a third kind ofdangerous point here is that
suffering equals punishment, andso those three, I think, are
(09:59):
common misconceptions that comefrom just focusing on the
prosperity side of the gospel.
I'm not saying that God doesn'twant us to prosper.
I believe he does.
But there's also some pointsthat Liz is going to take us
into about what we can expect inthis life, and it's not
underlined with prosperity.
What is it have?
Liz (10:19):
you been reading my journal , because I just feel like those
three things that you said havebeen in my journal.
Ben (10:24):
Maybe I should.
Liz (10:31):
Maybe I don't know, I'm like dang, I feel so convicted,
but it's true.
It's so true what you just said.
So there is a biblicalexpectation in regards to
suffering.
Ben (10:36):
There is.
Liz (10:37):
And Jesus talks about it, paul talks about it, james talks
about it.
And so just some quickscriptures real fast.
Jesus says in this world youwill have trouble.
That's in John 16, 33.
Paul says we must go throughmany hardships to enter the
kingdom of God.
That's in Acts 14, 22.
Peter says do not be surprisedat the fiery ordeal that has
(10:59):
come on you.
First, peter, 4, 12.
And then, last but not least,james says consider it pure joy
whenever you face trials.
And that's in James 1, verse 2.
But the thing is is we don'tlike those verses.
We want them out of our Bible,right, we want to omit them.
We want happy, joy, peace andit's like, but we go through
(11:19):
pain, we go through suffering.
Ben (11:21):
We do, and they're what we should expect, right?
If?
Jesus and Paul and Peter andJames are all telling us and
prepping us to expect this, thenit's probably something we need
to have at least some type ofunderstanding about right and we
can't just throw away the ideaof suffering, meaning that we're
(11:42):
in sin, okay.
So I think that's crucial, andthe ultimate story that really
illustrates that is Job.
Yeah, job is such a headscratcher it is.
Liz (11:54):
And do you remember when our son, when we would ask him
our oldest, we'd say, what'syour favorite book in the Bible?
Because he was just reading theBible.
So much.
He's like Job, I just love Job.
And even just recently in oneof our family devotions.
And he's like Job, I just loveJob.
And even just recently in oneof our family devotions, somehow
we got on Job and he had somuch wisdom.
Ben (12:08):
Right.
Liz (12:08):
He was still gleaning from.
I mean, I don't think he's readit like thoroughly in the last
couple of years, right, but hewas like oh no it's so good, he
studied it yeah.
He's like everybody shouldreally read Job.
And I'm like most I don't know,I don't know how to describe,
(12:34):
yeah, maybe the most delightfulconclusions there's some
incredible things in there thereis, there's, I mean there's
some beautiful things about thecharacter of god and his
interaction with the lord andhis sovereignty.
Ben (12:45):
It's beautiful, but at the same time it's like this man
went through a lot and you'rethinking if I read this, this is
probably going to happen to me.
Liz (12:54):
I don't want to read it because I don't want to
experience it.
I don't want to know if I'mdumb and happy.
Ben (12:57):
I'd rather be dumb and happy.
It's terrible.
Liz (13:00):
But you can't be that when you're married to Ben, all right
, keep going I.
But you can't be that whenyou're married to Ben, all right
, keep going.
Ben (13:03):
I don't think it's good.
I don't think it's good to gothrough life without
understanding this part, and solet's just set it up, okay.
So here is a righteous man, job.
He was righteous.
In fact, god's even braggingabout his righteousness.
Liz (13:15):
It's crazy, right, it's crazy.
Ben (13:18):
Have you considered my servant Job, and so it.
It's really kind of indicativethat here is this righteous man
who doesn't have that connectionto suffering because of what
he's done.
Right.
Okay, so right out of the gate,right?
We know that he is quote,unquote innocent.
Again, I'm assuming he has sinat some level, but he doesn't
(13:42):
walk in sin.
He's walking in a righteous wayand, just like all of us, we've
all fallen short.
But he's not continuing to doit.
He's living his life in arighteous manner, right?
So much so that God vouches forhis own character, for Job's
own character, and what we'refinding out is like the setup
here is that the suffering isnot a punishment for sin, it's a
(14:05):
test.
Right.
God's even you know sayingdirecting the adversary to Job
because of his faithfulness.
Which is crazy, and in fact heloses Job, loses everything, in
spite of his faithfulness.
Liz (14:22):
All of it.
Yeah, it was really intense.
Um, I mean even the falsecomfort of job's friends.
Uh, you know the first one.
I always say the first one'sname.
Weird, how do you say?
Elif elif as yeah, elif, as I'mso glad to roll off the tongue
we all of our boys names startwith the letter e and I'm so
glad we didn't name any of them.
Ben (14:41):
We could have pulled Eliphaz.
Liz (14:43):
Eliphaz.
What's up, Eliphaz?
But anyway, he said to Job inJob 4.7, he said who being
innocent has ever perished?
Whoa, and then Bildad, if youare pure and upright, surely he
would rouse himself for you.
And that was spoken to Job.
Ben (15:00):
These are his friends right , his friends trying to comfort
him, trying to comfort him.
Liz (15:03):
This to Job.
These are his friends, right,His friends trying to comfort
him.
Trying to comfort him, this isnot comfort, no.
And then Zophar says know thenthat God exacts of you less than
your guilt deserves.
That is crazy.
So what do those all have incommon?
Not good friends.
Ben (15:18):
Well, it's just that they all thought they all had this
kind of concept this theologythat suffering must be deserved.
Okay, so what you can take outof those three is that they had
in their minds Job.
You are going through thisordeal because of something you
have done.
Liz (15:36):
And that was not the case.
And you know, even his wife, Imean, she was like just die,
basically.
Ben (15:44):
First.
Liz (15:44):
God and die.
I mean mean this poor guy.
You know he boils on his body.
He was in pain he loseschildren.
Ben (15:51):
Yeah, he loses children, he loses possessions, he loses his
health, I mean everything.
He didn't lose his wife, though, well, benjamin but, but it
turns a corner.
Liz (16:02):
But you know, joe was, he had an honest lament, didn't he?
He really did.
Ben (16:07):
Yeah, I mean he has lament right, it's not that Job just
takes it and just is like ohyeah, everything's normal.
Liz (16:14):
Right.
Ben (16:15):
There is some wrestling that Job goes into and he
questions God directly.
He wants God to explain himself, right, and I don't think
that's necessarily sin.
I think, Job is at a placewhere he's like.
I know my character.
I know that I've livedrighteously.
(16:36):
Right.
God, I want to know, why am Igoing through this?
And so he puts God on trial, soto speak, and he also is able
to express his pain withoutabandoning his faith.
And he gives this longdiscourse about like the curses
of the day that he was born, andit's just like it's this poetic
(16:56):
.
And he's lamenting yes, and he'sdemanding of God to answer him,
but yet he's maintaining thisrelationship with God.
I think a lot of us would justbe like Job's wife and be like
hey man, I'm out, you know thisis not what I signed up for,
right, I don't believe in youanymore, but Job is like no.
I know God's character.
I'm putting him to the test.
Like why?
(17:17):
What is going on?
God and he's so he'smaintaining that relationship,
but how does God respond?
This is the crazy part.
Liz (17:25):
Yeah, it's pretty crazy because he basically, in
revealing himself to Job, he'snot explaining, but God never
explains the why, like he's just.
Ben (17:34):
That's so intense.
Liz (17:35):
Yeah, can you?
Ben (17:36):
imagine going through all the things that he did and then
it's like oh yeah, you don't getan answer.
I mean, you get an answer butyou don't get a why.
It's kind of what we do ourkids when they're like why we're
?
like because I said so.
Liz (17:48):
Because I said so.
Maybe that's where it all stemsfrom Job, or as people call it,
Job I'm just kidding Job, butno.
Instead, God reveals hischaracter and sovereignly, and
he asks Job if he is able to runthings even for a day.
I mean really, the Lord comesback.
Ben (18:03):
So he kind of puts Job on trial, right, like Job puts God
on trial, and then God's likewell, how about you?
Can you do what I do, right?
Liz (18:11):
Yeah, but you know, and of course Job cannot do what God
does.
I mean, it's beautiful how theLord responds to him, you know,
and Job's conclusion basicallyis he says my ears had heard of
you, but now my eyes have seenyou.
Ben (18:25):
Okay, time out, guys.
This is so nuts.
Okay, so, in the midst of thiscrazy suffering that I don't
think anybody has everexperienced, maybe before and
since, I don't know, we don'tknow.
Liz (18:37):
I mean, we have no idea.
Ben (18:38):
We don't know everybody in the world, but like, however, I
don't know of anybody who's evenlost all their children in one
day.
Maybe, maybe that's happened.
But then all your possessionsand then your health to like all
of that happening in the sametime period.
Yeah, it's crazy.
And his conclusion is that heknows God more.
He is better acquainted withGod.
(18:59):
He understands the Lord morehis form.
He has seen God.
He knows the experience thathe's gained from this ordeal.
It's something that transforms.
Right.
And he's never given the answerof the why, but he's left in
this place of understanding andit just blows your mind because
(19:22):
it's like maybe that was thewhole point is to take my eyes
off of my own suffering and putthem back on God.
Liz (19:29):
Yes, and I just want to say one of the reasons why we're
bringing this up and talkingabout this, so again like this,
is our one blessed mess.
A lot of times, when we'retalking about these different
subjects, is because these aredialogues or things that we're
walking through or have walkedthrough.
And we feel like we want toinvite whoever's listening to
this into the conversation.
So you know, we often kidaround and say you know, pretend
(19:51):
that you just had a cup ofcoffee with us or you just
finished a meal with us andwe're having a dessert and we're
talking about this.
And the reason why we'rebringing this up is because in
our community we have justwalked through a tremendous
amount of suffering and pain,unbelievable amounts In fact.
We've even had family membersreach out to us and asking hey,
(20:11):
how are you guys?
You're kind of at ground zero.
Right, because there's beenlet's go through it.
Ben (20:16):
Let's go through it, yeah.
Liz (20:17):
I mean, where do you want to start?
Ben (20:18):
Because I feel like there's so many things.
Just recently we had a shootingat the local college here.
Liz (20:23):
Yeah, we had at the university.
Ben (20:24):
Several people died there's tons of people that are
experiencing pain and loss andeven injury.
There was several that were incritical condition and, I think,
are pulling through, but we hada shooting like right here in a
local college.
Um, we had someone take hislife in the last couple of weeks
, yeah, and last couple of weekswe had a friend um, whose son
took his life We've had multiplepassings death.
Liz (20:46):
I mean like there's just another one that happened today,
and it's just like there's justgrief upon grief.
Um, I'm also thinking, you know, we brain know we've had two
friends with two of their.
Two of our friends, twodifferent kids had brain tumors
found out within two days apartand both had to go through brain
surgeries.
(21:07):
And you know, the one is goingto be doing chemo and radiation,
the other one I think it wasmalignant yeah.
And so it's okay, or other one.
I think it was malignant, yeah,and so it's okay, or benign.
Ben (21:16):
I say it benign.
Liz (21:17):
And, but you know, walking and we're close with those
families, so we have been inconstant connection with that,
you know, and then also with theshooting that just happened in
our city.
Ben (21:27):
Right.
Liz (21:28):
You know the, the first responders that were there, that
were on on the partner ofsomebody that we know actually
took down the the gunman.
Ben (21:38):
And then, and then, yeah.
Liz (21:40):
And then the friend that we have cuffed him and so they're
walking through, and so there'sjust like it.
And and then we know people whowere in the student union when
it happened.
You know people on campus Imean I was getting messages
before it even hit the socialspray right now, and so you know
cause they heard the gunshots,they were there and they're
reaching out for prayer andstudents.
And so it's just like um, ithas been like one thing after
(22:04):
another.
We had a family member who gotinto some trouble and recently,
you know, tangled with the law,like it's just like guys we're
talking, like within a couple ofweeks, like this hasn't even
been a full like it's just likeone, and we're being affected by
it closely.
Ben (22:19):
It's not just um it's like a season of pain.
Liz (22:22):
Yeah, it's like a season of pain, and so even family
members are reaching out to usand they're like, hey, how are
you?
Because we have been literallyin the trenches, on ground zero,
helping, caring loved onesthrough this, through prayer,
even practically taking kids,taking meals, calling, praying,
meeting, all the things thatneed to be done because we're in
(22:43):
community.
And so it brings up thisquestion about pain.
Yeah, it does, I mean, itreally does.
Ben (22:49):
It really does, and from what we can tell about why Job
went through what he did, weknow that it's not connected
necessarily to him deserving it,and so his restoration is that
deserved too.
I don't know.
I think there's some questionsthat are still left unanswered.
And you can read between thelines and you can try to
(23:11):
summarize, but I think the wholepoint of the book is that we
keep our eyes on God and we stayhumble before him, even in the
midst of suffering, and that'snot a popular message.
Liz (23:22):
No, it's not we want to know.
Ben (23:23):
We want to be able to justify our pain.
We want to be able to justifyour suffering.
We want to know there's apurpose for it.
Right.
But sometimes that purpose isjust to be humbled.
Liz (23:31):
Right, and he does do that.
Ben (23:33):
Yeah, but it's unpopular.
It is unpopular.
Liz (23:36):
Nobody wants to talk about that.
Ben (23:38):
But we want to dive into really quick just some of the
brain science behind the conceptof post-traumatic growth.
Liz (23:44):
Hold on, Ben.
You're going into brain scienceand you don't have your science
glasses on.
Ben (23:48):
Oh no, Maybe I should go switch out my glasses.
Liz (23:49):
No, we don't have time, we don't.
Ben (23:52):
We don't have time, I don't have my clear glasses on, which
Liz affectionately calls myscience glasses.
They look like goggles.
Liz (23:59):
But here he goes, he's going to dive into brain science
.
This is good.
This is really good.
Everybody wants to hear it.
Sorry for interrupting.
Ben (24:04):
That's okay.
So American PsychologyAssociation has found studies
have shown that 50 to 60% oftrauma survivors report positive
change.
Right, okay, and we'll get intosome of the why behind that.
But just know, like out of thegate, about half the people that
go through traumaticexperiences it can be used for
(24:27):
positive in their life, or atleast we can spin it so that way
there is positive change.
Does it mean that they wouldchoose it?
I don't think so, but you?
Liz (24:35):
mean choose, going through the trauma Sure they wouldn't
choose that.
But they're making the choiceto choose for it to be a
positive.
They're looking at it as a wayto and they're seeing that it
has had positive change in theirlife.
Yep.
Ben (24:48):
So there was two doctors that kind of did a little bit
more research into this area andthey came up with this acronym,
ptgi, which is post-traumaticgrowth inventory, okay, and so
they break it down a little bit.
It shows metrics around thepositive changes, the
psychological changes thathappen following traumatic
events, and those are in fivekey areas new possibilities
(25:09):
relating to others, key areas,new possibilities relating to
others, personal strength,spiritual change and
appreciation for life.
Okay, so those are the five keyfactors.
Liz (25:20):
For PTGI.
Ben (25:31):
PTGI.
Remember that.
So PTGI is modestly related tooptimism and extroversion, and
so basically what that means isthat when we go through these
experiences and we keep apositive outlook and we use it
to connect to others, then thatthose five factors are
strengthened.
There's a relationship, there'sthe positive that comes in
those five areas when we can seepositively and we can connect
(25:54):
with others through the pain.
Liz (25:55):
Now Philippians 4.8,.
That's what this says to me.
Ben (25:58):
Yeah.
Liz (25:59):
Think on these things.
Ben (26:00):
Yeah.
Liz (26:00):
And so science is just proving, yeah, and trauma and
pain is going to happen.
Ben (26:07):
It is.
Liz (26:08):
And so if we take the Bible for what it's saying.
Ben (26:11):
Right.
Liz (26:11):
Like science is basically saying this PDGI thing Sounds
hilarious.
That's basically what it'ssaying.
Right, like science isbasically saying this PDGI thing
Sounds hilarious.
That's basically what it'ssaying.
Ben (26:18):
Yeah, yeah, and some really interesting things.
Women tend to report morebenefits than men.
Liz (26:24):
Isn't that interesting?
Is it because we talk more?
Ben (26:27):
I think it's because you're more social creatures.
Liz (26:30):
We are Typically than men.
What does that mean?
Ben (26:32):
Well, I think you're using that extroversion part of it to
experience the positive that cancome in those five factors.
Liz (26:39):
So we're just super social.
Ben (26:41):
Yeah, yeah, and I think sometimes that works in favor of
people especially who's gonethrough events and can connect
to others.
Liz (26:50):
Well, and that's how women are wired?
No, it's true.
I mean if, like even we justtalked about all the things that
are going on in our community.
Ben (26:54):
Yeah.
Liz (26:54):
Like it's happening.
I just want to say somethingthat I was thinking about when
Jesus, you know, when Jesus wason the cross and he died and
they put him in the tomb.
I always think about all thosewomen and like somebody planned
the casserole, somebody wasgetting a meal plan going for
Mary, like there was like therewas, like they were on it.
You know it was the women werethe first ones to the tomb.
(27:16):
You know they had everythingwith them to come and and take
care of the body and he wasn'tthere, right.
So I just I'm not surprised insome ways, and that's just a
gift of how God has made women.
And we should own it, ladies,don't dismiss it.
So, ben you were, you own it,that I own it.
Ben (27:34):
I will own it, that you own it.
Liz (27:35):
Thank you.
This PTG, I think I don't knowwhere you're going with that.
I don't know, I just want youto own it.
Ben (27:40):
Real quick.
Also, people who haveexperienced these traumatic
events report more positivechange than new persons who have
never experienced extraordinaryevents.
Okay, that's interesting.
I think they're Right.
I mean, obviously you can lookat it two different ways, but if
at least 50% of people 50%greater are reporting positive
(28:02):
changes because of these crazyevents, these post-traumatic
events, then that means there'sa lot of people that can see the
benefit.
They can see that those eventsdo shape us.
Right they form us.
Right, it's almost like secondCorinthians, one, three and four
makes a lot of sense throughthis lens.
I'm just going to read itPraise be to God, the father of
(28:24):
our Lord Jesus Christ, thefather of compassion and the God
of all comfort, who comforts usin our troubles so that we can
comfort those who are in troubleany trouble with the comfort we
ourselves received from God.
I feel like this verse is kindof illustrated with some of
those findings when we gothrough our troubles and God
(28:45):
comforts us, we can then in turncomfort others, and I feel like
that's that extroversion pieceof the PDGI and seeing those
five key factors that can becomealive in people after these
events, and a lot of it has todo with reaching out in
community.
Liz (29:03):
Absolutely, and I'm just thinking how children a lot of
times.
What happens when kids getscars and they hurt their knee
and they're like oh, look at myknee.
And then they're like look atmy elbow and they're showing you
all their scars of where theyhad hurt themselves.
And so to me, I think aboutwhen we go through trials and
tribulations and pain andsuffering there's wounding, but
(29:23):
the wounds heal.
Ben (29:24):
There is and if you heal with other people, there's
strong identities that form.
Absolutely In fact there's evenstudies that show that when men
are off in war, so this is foryou men out here.
We talked about some ladiesthat got some points.
That's hilarious With the guyswhen they experience intensities
in war there is a strong superstrong bond that is formed In
(29:47):
fact it's so strong thatsometimes people even report.
Men often report depression ofnot feeling that in society when
they come back from war.
So, they want to go re-sign upjust to experience that bonding.
Liz (29:59):
Yeah, isn't it interesting when you get into that?
But I was just thinking aboutthe wounds, and so it's talking
about the comfort we ourselvesreceive from God, and so we're
able to share.
Look at this wound, even thoughthis happened to me, but look
at how it healed.
So I know you're in pain rightnow and I know you're suffering
right now.
I've been there, you know, andeven when maybe we don't
(30:23):
understand fully their pain, butbecause we have experienced the
pain that we can really comeand be empathetic.
Ben (30:30):
And it's.
Liz (30:31):
It's so good to have that empathy, to be empathetic, and
it's so good to have thatempathy.
We talk about that a lot withour children because they don't
always understand the persondown the street and why they're
suffering and what's going on,and so instilling that in them.
But when they're dealing withtrials we're like remember this.
Ben (30:47):
Do you remember that?
Liz (30:49):
Now they can relate a little bit better, but it's so
real.
Ben (30:52):
It.
Liz (30:52):
So real.
It is real and I feel like youhave a story, Mr Ben I do I have
a story?
Ben (30:58):
I want to.
I want to be a little bitvulnerable here.
I want to talk about my painstory, and we all have stories.
We all have pain that we'vegone through.
Mine spans more than a decadeand I'm still.
I'm still living it.
I'm still living it, I'm stillin it and I'm still expecting to
come through it 100%.
I'm not there yet.
Right.
But I do want to just talk aboutmy story and about the pain
(31:20):
that I've experienced and eventhe mistakes that I made through
walking it out and so jumpinginto it back in 2013,.
I was playing disc golf, thecrazy contact sport of disc golf
.
No, it's not.
There's no contact.
It's not.
Liz (31:36):
There's no contact.
It's literally you and a disc.
Ben (31:39):
Yeah, me, and a disc and a basket.
So if you run into the basket Iguess maybe you'll have contact
.
Liz (31:42):
But you weren't just playing, you were like playing
no I was playing.
Ben (31:45):
I was playing too much.
I was going almost every day,not quite, but I was going maybe
three or four times a week andI just started out with my own
business, and so I was trying tolearn schedules.
Liz (31:57):
We need to save that for another episode.
We do.
Yeah, there's a lot to unpackthere.
Ben (32:01):
But basically I was, when you first started out, feeling
the freedom of my entrepreneurjourney, and so I was like, yeah
, I'm gonna play disc golf everyand then working until Every
day during lunch.
And then spending later, laterevenings getting this stuff done
.
That I would have gotten done.
So, anyways, I was out, I wasplaying a lot and I was throwing
one day and I was throwingforehand, so it was a flicking
(32:25):
motion.
You really load up yourshoulder when you throw that way
, and so I'd learned to throwthat way.
It wasn't the correct way, um,or not the most common way, and
when I did one day I feltsomething give in the back of my
shoulder, in my back muscles.
It was almost like they seizedup and it scared me.
I was like whoa, what is that?
It didn't necessarily hurt, butit was just.
It felt funky and it felt likesomething was wrong.
So I threw again and the samething, same sensation happened,
(32:47):
and so I was like oh man, I needto stop.
I think I might've pulledsomething, so I'll just take a
month off.
So I did that.
I chilled out for a couple ofweeks and then went back and
started throwing again and itdidn't really hurt.
And so I started playingregularly again and I started
throwing other ways, justbecause it felt more comfortable
.
But it started a journey forabout three years where I was
(33:11):
experiencing different pains,different discomforts.
I was even having digestionirregularity and I was being
sensitive to certain foods and Iwas having ocular migraines
Pain all night long.
Liz (33:26):
Yeah, and so just, just all kinds of crazy stuff.
You would wake up in the middleof the night and be like, hit
me, hit me.
And I'm like hit, hit righthere Hard as you can try to hit
and I'm like hit you, I'm likeyou need help, honey, and he's
like dig your elbow in.
I mean, you would just be in somuch pain and we were trying
over the counter medicine.
Ben (33:45):
We were trying all the things.
Yep, trying different things.
We tried different diet.
I wasn't quite sure.
Sure, because I remember havingthat event and feeling
something wrong, but it wasn'tnecessarily painful, and so I
kind of just dismissed it aslike, oh yeah, that was just a
pulled muscle.
Liz (33:59):
Because there was digestion and you were having headaches.
Yeah, I was having headaches,ocular migraines.
Ben (34:03):
my vision was getting weary , so we were thinking.
Liz (34:05):
I mean, we were thinking like maybe you have a tumor
cancer.
Ben (34:08):
I was thinking, what's it?
Lyme's disease yeah, we werethinking all kinds of things.
Liz (34:12):
You know, but he would have excruciating pain here.
Now we understand, because weunderstand the anatomy of the
body and the event of it, butit's been a journey.
Ben (34:20):
It has been a journey.
And so we got.
We finally saw someone.
We saw a chiropractor who waslike hey man, you're always
really tight on your right side,you should go get it checked
out, you should go get an MRI.
So I did.
This was about three or fouryears later and I got it checked
out.
And they saw that I had torn mylabrum in my right shoulder so I
did a surgery and the surgerywas unsuccessful, and so this is
(34:43):
the part where it's reallyintense.
So I was rehabbing on a tornlabrum going through the PT, but
the surgery wasn't successfuland I had no idea why it was so
painful, but it was like reallybad and I got suicidal.
And so I haven't told a wholelot of people that my wife knows
and a few other people, but Iwas really having suicidal
thoughts.
I was like I don't know if Ican continue doing this, Like
(35:07):
just lifting my arm, just doingsome of the day-to-day stuff is
really painful and there wasjust issues in my neck where
blood wasn't flowing through myhead correctly.
Liz (35:18):
You're in pain.
Yeah, I was in pain and youdidn't see a way out.
I didn't.
Ben (35:22):
I didn't see a way out, and there were a few things that
would help, here and there, justa little bit but nothing would
fully relieve the pain, and so Istarted making bad decisions, I
started doing things that Ishouldn't have done and I just
went down this journey, and alot of it had to do with just
not being accountable and justtrying to numb the pain, and so
(35:44):
I ended up doing things thatwere just bad and got into
addictive behaviors.
And so that went on for sometime.
I got another surgery, thingsgot better and I finally got
some counseling and overcame theaddictions.
And my wife was amazing.
Through all of it she stuckwith me and just worked with me
(36:05):
and it was really humbling.
At the end of the day, I cansay that I was really humbled
because I thought I could do itby myself.
I thought I could just pullmyself up by my bootstraps and
just keep moving forward and itwasn't the case.
No, it wasn't it wasn't the case.
I had to reach out, I had to behonest, I had to get help.
(36:26):
Yeah, you did.
And it even involvedprofessional help.
Yes, I did, and so a lot ofpeople just don't have a grid
for that.
They're just like, oh well, youknow, just confess your sins,
you'll be fine, and it's like,well, yeah, but you know,
there's also professionals outthere that can help and can deal
with the trauma and can dealwith the addictive lifestyles.
And so I went down that path.
I'm really thankful that I did,and I know I'm not totally
(36:49):
healed yet, but I know that Godis using the pain to teach me so
many things.
Yes, he is.
And a lot of it is humility.
I mean just like Job.
Liz (37:01):
I don't necessarily have an answer, I don't know, the why
behind it, but I do know thatGod is faithful and I do see his
hand leading me through eventhe restoration piece of it and
even if I'm not healed, I stillfeel changed and transformed you
are, and as your wife watchingyou walk through this, I would
have to say I'm thankful for thejourney that we've had because
(37:24):
of the man that you've become,and it has been hard.
Ben (37:28):
It was very dark.
Liz (37:30):
Sometimes it was very dark, especially when you were going
through the season of wanting totake your own life, and
actually the Lord was the onewho spoke to me.
Ben (37:39):
That's crazy.
I didn't tell Liz I was keepingit all to myself and that's a
problem.
I mean, I don't know if it'sthe rugged individualism that
our culture loves so much orwhat, but I just thought I could
be the big man and not share,and didn't work out too well.
That's not how it works, though.
It's not how it works.
Liz (37:57):
And so the Lord and his sweetness just gently like
revealed to me what was going onand when I confronted you,
fortunately you were honest andjust that, and so getting
through that was because Ibasically told you if you take
your life, I'm coming and I'mwaking you up, and then I'm
taking your life.
Ben (38:16):
I'm going to resurrect you and take you again.
Liz (38:17):
I was like look, you cannot do that.
You cannot leave me with sixkids without you, you know,
because it's hard it is it'shard?
And you know you are humanRight.
Right, you're not a superhuman.
No, you are human, nobody isRight and the Bible says we will
face trials and tribulations.
I just didn't know it was goingto be this in my life.
Right and then, on top of it,then, the addictions and the
(38:40):
things that came from the pain.
Ben (38:42):
Right.
Liz (38:45):
And you have bit the bullet and you have made every effort
possible to change.
And I see it in your life.
I see the fragrance of Christin your life, I see the hard
work that you're doing and I seebehind the scenes.
And we've grown closer.
Ben (39:02):
Yeah, this is true.
Liz (39:04):
Because we have this wound.
Ben (39:07):
Yeah.
Liz (39:08):
And we do have a message to share and I know we're just
kind of grazing over all of thisjust a little bit.
There will be days that we willgo deeper we will go much
deeper.
Ben (39:17):
Yeah.
Liz (39:17):
And there's not many people who know about all of it.
No, and so.
But you know, I'm proud of youand I'm standing on the
sidelines cheering you on.
But I also know our heavenlyfather is standing on the cheer,
on the sidelines, and he ischeering you on.
Yeah, but you know, there'sstill the question mark, because
your shoulder is still hurting.
Ben (39:37):
Right, still in pain Right.
Liz (39:38):
And we have done lots of things.
Therapies I mean, I meanacupuncture, I don't think
there's ARP, arp.
Chiropractic.
Ben (39:47):
Yeah, I don't think there's Injections.
Two surgeries yes.
Liz (39:50):
I don't think there's any stone that we haven't overturned
Right and for the first time.
Chronic pain is hard.
A drug is not going to heal it.
Ben (40:02):
No.
Liz (40:02):
Right Nothing, it's our thought process.
Ben (40:07):
You read.
Liz (40:07):
You have to like you read about the study Right.
That's true for you it is.
You have to make a decision.
Ben (40:13):
I had to see the positive in it.
And as soon as I started takingthe me centeredness out of it
Right and got accountable andgot honest with you and then I
started seeing a path out Right.
Right and to where it was like.
Not about me, not about my pain, but about the transformative
quality that God can have inrelationship with me in the
(40:36):
midst of the pain.
Liz (40:37):
Right, right and in the midst of all of that, like here
you are today and you stillexperience pain.
Ben (40:45):
Yeah.
Liz (40:46):
Like you're still even this week.
I mean guys honestly like itwas really tough.
Ben (40:51):
I didn't know we were going to be able to film today
because I was pretty bad offyesterday.
Liz (40:54):
But thankfully, you know, by the Lord's grace like I'm
able to be here and talk withyou guys and so, yeah, it's good
and there's also a side ofgrief, too, because you've been
in pain for well over a decadethat, like you, weren't able to
throw the ball with the kids.
Ben (41:08):
Right.
Liz (41:09):
You weren't able to be outside with them.
Ben (41:11):
Yeah.
Liz (41:11):
You know, like taking them camping, you can't wear a
backpack.
Right, like there's so manythings, and so, in a way, there
was a handicap that was going on.
Ben (41:20):
There was and I think a part of that is a lot of the
disappointment that I wasleaning into.
Right.
Like I felt abandoned, I felthandicapped and I felt like I
didn't deserve it and thosethings, you know, those are real
emotions, but they're allcentered around me.
You know, it was like I wasonly looking at the me aspect.
I wasn't necessarilyconsidering Liz, especially the
(41:40):
suicidal thoughts, you know.
I wasn't thinking about what itwould do to her or what it
would do to my kids, and so Ireally started I think the Lord
started really unpacking whatwas there and the selfish
attitudes that I have, and Ithink he used my pain to really
get me to see how selfish I am.
I know that sounds kind of cruel, but it's not.
(42:01):
It's actually mercy.
I feel so alive now that theLord spotlighted those issues.
And I'm not perfect.
Obviously you know that youlive with me, but I feel like
I'm much different.
I'm in a different place in mylife and I think I'm honestly
happier than I've been in areally long time, a really long
(42:23):
time.
Liz (42:24):
And it's evident.
I see the fruit, I'm up closeand personal and I see the fruit
and there is a markeddifference.
So what's funny is before, evenwhen you're in pain and all the
things that were going on, Imean I could see that there was
this struggle, but still somehowyou're able to cope through it
all and fake, because if you hadasked me, I would have told you
(42:46):
our marriage is great, becausewe do have a good marriage.
We've always had a goodmarriage.
But on this side of all of it,the realization, the truth of
everything coming out on thetable, our marriage is deeper.
Ben (43:01):
Our love is deeper and there is true connection that.
Liz (43:05):
I could have.
I always thought, but it wasn'tthe real like.
I still felt it wasn't in syncand now it's in sync.
Ben (43:12):
It's amazing how that works .
It is God is using and has usedmy pain to even bring us closer
together, and that's amazingand I think there's some
takeaways, right, liz?
I mean there's like these aregood antidotes, but I think
that's the common thread withall of this is that you know
whether it's our friend walkingthrough the death of her husband
(43:35):
or even experiencing you know achild that has a tumor and a
very intense spot.
Yeah, it's coming back,cancerous Even just our local
community with a shooter, anactive shooter and people lost
their lives, yeah, and wounded.
There's never a lost opportunity, I think, for the Lord to move,
(43:58):
and that's one of the takeawaysthat we have is that God
doesn't waste our pain.
Liz (44:05):
No, he doesn't.
And it says in Romans 8.
28,.
And I love this scripture.
It's one that whenever I see 8,28, I always think.
Romans 8, 28, which says and weknow that in all things God
works for the good of those wholove him, who have been called
according to his purpose.
And then in second Corinthiansone, verses three through four,
it says praise be to the God andfather of our Lord, jesus
(44:27):
Christ, the father of compassionand the God of all comfort, who
comforts us in all our troubles, so that we can comfort those
who are in any trouble with thecomfort we ourselves receive
from God.
It goes back to that wounds.
Look at this wound, look atthat wound.
Ben (44:43):
And I think that's really cool because it's almost like
our pain can be a ministry toothers.
Liz (44:49):
Absolutely.
Ben (44:50):
And if you think about it like the resurrected Jesus, he
didn't have this just completelynew, perfect, transformed body.
He had scars.
Yeah, they were almost liketrophies, if you think about it.
Yes, because even inRevelations it talks about a
lamb that was slain and it'slike well, what is that?
(45:11):
How is that symbol supposed tobe, this champion?
Or how do we value this slainpart, these scars that Jesus
carries?
What does that mean?
And I think it means that hecan identify with us in our
suffering.
Liz (45:30):
Absolutely, absolutely.
You know, I'm just thinkingabout Paul.
He was beat up a lot.
I wonder if he has his scars.
Ben (45:37):
I'm sure he does Like will his face be mangled?
Liz (45:39):
You know what I mean?
I don't know.
I mean, you're in yourresurrected glorified body and
obviously Jesus is Jesus.
So the lamb that was slain, soit's Neil Peart's hand.
I wonder, I wonder, I wonder ifmaybe our resurrected bodies
might have some trophies.
I have no idea, I don't know.
Ben (45:55):
Who knows, but I do know this, though that God is present
in our suffering.
Liz (45:58):
Yes, he is, I've experienced that yes.
Ben (46:00):
Right, I've felt the Lord.
There were times where I pushedhim away and then there was
times where I pushed him awayand then there was times where I
welcomed him in and I canhonestly say I'm so grateful for
the times that I welcomed himin, because I'm a different
person when I have done that.
In.
Psalms 34, 18,.
The Lord is close to thebrokenhearted and saves those
who are crushed in spirit.
I know I felt that way.
It wasn't a place of strength,it was a place of vulnerability
(46:24):
and I didn't even want to behonest about it.
Place of vulnerability and Ididn't even want to be honest
about it.
But when I was and when theLord reached out to me, even
using my wife, even I felt thelove of the Lord through Liz,
and I know that he's close tothe brokenhearted.
I've experienced it myself.
In Isaiah 43 too.
When you pass through thewaters, I will be with you, and
when you pass through the rivers, they will not sweep over you.
(46:46):
When you walk through the fire,you will not be burned and the
flames will not set you ablaze.
It's the promise of hispresence.
We don't have a promise ofexplanation.
We don't have a promise as tothe why.
Liz (46:58):
No, we do not.
We do have a promise ofpresence.
We do.
And this scripture Isaiah 43, 2, is actually the scripture that
one of our friends, her son,who has the cancerous tumor that
they removed and he's going tobe doing chemo and radiation and
we just got a text messageright before we started this
that they're going to be puttingin the port and this young man
(47:19):
that we love so much.
I may cry but we've done a lotof life with this family, but
this is the scripture that hasbeen the one that she's been
holding onto for the last coupleof weeks and I I really didn't
know that that was her scriptureand one day I was praying for
her and the Lord highlighted thescripture and I sent it to her.
She's like Liz, this is the oneand she had like one of those
coloring books that you color inthat has scriptures and things
(47:41):
and it was the actual thatscripture and she'd been
coloring it in the hospital, youknow, before his surgery, after
his surgery.
And so it's so true, he's withyou, he is for you, he's not
going to like you.
Ben (47:56):
And there's redemptive purposes, even in our suffering.
You know God uses it for goodand you know there's just
there's some things that we justdon't want to experience.
We push away.
I've done it, I don'tunderstand it and maybe I don't
deserve it, and, like Job, wekind of try to put God on trial,
(48:17):
and I think that's the wrongexpression.
Liz (48:22):
The wrong heart posture.
Well, it's the wrong heartposture, but we're human.
We're human and we are going todo it.
And we're going to do it, weare Well it's the wrong heart
posture, but we're human.
Ben (48:29):
We're human and we are going to do it and we're going
to do it.
We are and it's okay.
I think that's part of it isjust telling yourself it's okay
to make some mistakes.
It's okay to be angry, to bemad, but direct it back to God,
because God is going to help youfind the resolve that you need.
Absolutely you know, and even asJob did like he wrestled with
it he had relationship with theLord, even in the midst of the
(48:51):
most crazy suffering thatmankind's ever seen.
Maybe I don't know, but hedidn't abandon his relationship
with God.
And I think that was part ofsome of the problem that I had
is that I turned to other thingsinstead of the Lord, and when I
turned back to God, I feel likethe Lord really used that and
really helped me find a way backto him.
Liz (49:11):
He did Absolutely, and I've just been on the sidelines
watching.
Ben (49:15):
Cheering it on Yep.
Yes.
Liz (49:18):
So the cross as God's ultimate answer to suffering.
Ben (49:22):
Yeah, yeah.
Like God, he took our place andhe bore the brunt of the full
suffering Right, and so he canidentify with us.
He can identify with us in oursuffering.
Liz (49:33):
Because you know, christ entered or he enters into our
pain rather than explaining itaway.
And in Colossians 1.24,.
It says Paul's mysteriousstatement about basically
filling up what is lacking inChrist's afflictions.
Yeah, that is a really crazyverse.
Ben (49:51):
If you go, I recommend you go look that up in Colossians
124.
There's just this kind ofinteresting statement about
filling up what was lacking inChrist's afflictions, and he's
talking about himself andhimself experiencing afflictions
, and so what does that mean?
I don't know.
I think that's part of some ofthe mystery.
I think it's part of some ofthe expectation as believers,
(50:13):
and especially as apostles, thatthey would suffer many things,
and there's a promise that Godis gonna be with us in the midst
of it.
But there's also kind of this Idon't know if you'd call it a
promise or an expectation, Idon't know how you frame it, but
it's coming, suffering will bethere.
Liz (50:30):
It's in the Bible.
You should be expecting it.
Ben (50:36):
Yes, you can't avoid it.
You can't avoid it as much aswe want prosperity, as much as
prosperity is in the Bible.
So is suffering.
So it's like two sides of thesame coin God gives and God
takes away, just like Job said.
Liz (50:44):
It must be the name of the Lord that takes away, just like
Job said, it's right to be thename of the Lord.
That's exactly what happens.
So what are some practicalsteps, so practical steps.
Ben (50:50):
I mean, this is something that we just don't do well
enough in Western culture.
We don't have a theology aroundlament, especially as a
biblical practice, as part of Idon't know if you call it
spiritual disciplines, but aspart of our faith expression, we
have to lament, we have to layout, just like David did in the.
(51:13):
Psalms there is lament andthere's something I think that's
beautiful.
There's a verse that talksabout God collecting the tears
of his saints and so even Godcares about our suffering and
it's something that he collects.
That's crazy, right.
Who is this Lord, who is thisGod that even has a bottle for
(51:34):
our tears and keeps it as amonument?
I mean, there's just so muchthat goes into suffering.
There's so much that God caresabout the brokenhearted, about
the contrite in spirit.
Go and look that up.
This is massively a part ofGod's character, absolutely.
And if we don't talk about this, if we don't explain that the
(51:55):
Lord is with, very close, verywith, and even talks about how
he dwells, and.
Isaiah talks about how he dwellson high and also with the
broken and the contrite spirit.
And so when we lament and weturn to God in our suffering and
we pour out our lament, even asa song, as praise I know that
(52:16):
sounds weird and we just don'tdo it enough in church, but
personally when you do that,there's just something of an
identity that forms when you gothrough something with the Lord
and you're communicating withGod in the midst of it.
There is a strong bond thatforms Just like those brothers
in arms that are in war together.
(52:37):
If you're with the Lord andyou're facing those trials,
those facing those tribulations,and you keep your faith, you
keep the promises that theLord's given you.
There's just something that isformed that I don't think is
formed any other way.
That's right.
And so, even in the midst ofcommunity, right, god tells us
in Romans 12, 15, sorry, paultells us in Romans 12, 15, mourn
(52:59):
with those who mourn.
Right, we rejoice with thosewho rejoice and weep with those
who weep.
So again, we're not necessarilygoing to find the explanation,
but I think we can find apurpose even without explanation
.
We can find a purpose thatdoesn't require an explanation.
We can find humility, we canfind being able to then minister
(53:24):
to others.
We can allow God to use thoseevents, use those pains, to
transform us into somethingbeautiful.
Liz (53:32):
Well, it's finding purpose in it.
Yeah, it's finding purpose, andI'm just thinking too that I
mean, this has been a greatconversation about suffering and
pain, and we knew this wasgoing to be a heavy conversation
, but I'm just thinking thatwhen there are those that are
going, those that are goingthrough pain and suffering
(53:54):
sometimes even me being thatpositive.
Patty will just be like well,pull up your bootstraps and have
the mind of Christ and praisehim in the midst of it, when
really, like Ecclesiastes says,there's a time for mourning.
Ben (54:03):
Yes.
Liz (54:03):
There's a time for dancing, and so I think when we're
seeing those that are sufferingor walking through it, like
grief there's, like all thesestages of grief, there's studies
on it.
It comes at all different times.
We've been walking with a closefriend that lost her husband
and um, you know they have threelittle ones and so, you know,
walking with her through that,and I, you know, I lost my dad.
(54:25):
You know what 14 years ago, andstill grief comes at different
times and um, but you know,suffering with pain, chronic
pain, uh, there's just so much,and so I I feel that one of the
things mourn with those whomourn that is something that is
beautiful.
Ben (54:43):
Yes, you have empathy for people having empathy.
That is true, so I have to saythat I have more empathy for
people in pain than I've ever inmy life and I sometimes I would
even brush people off, like, oh, here's this chronic person
that says they've got thisproblem.
Maybe it's just in their head,maybe there's a hypochondriac.
I used to think I was ahypochondriac.
I would.
I would turn to liz and be likeam I a hypochondriac?
(55:03):
What is going on with me?
Liz (55:04):
I'm like you're too logical to be a hyperchondriac right
now.
Ben (55:07):
Yeah.
But, I mean going a decade withpain almost every day.
Liz (55:12):
It's more than a decade, by the way.
Yeah, more than a decade.
Ben (55:15):
It's true, more than a decade 12 years, 13 years, 13
years.
Yeah, Just man, I can tell you Ihave so much more empathy for
someone who's going through pain.
I'm like, yeah, and I don'tknow that I would have gotten it
any other way.
Liz (55:30):
I know, I just wish we didn't have to do it all, but we
are.
Ben (55:34):
Right.
Liz (55:34):
Trials and tribulations.
Ben (55:35):
Yeah, count it all joy.
Liz (55:36):
Count it, all joy.
Ben (55:37):
So wow, what a conversation this has been, we are here,
it's a blessed mess, it's a oneblessed mess, it's our one, bm
Ben, said it's our big BM, ourbig BM.
Liz (55:50):
Well, gosh, thank you for being a part of our one blessed
mess today, and don't forget tosubscribe like heart share with
a friend that maybe needsencouragement.
Maybe you know somebody who'swalking through pain and
suffering and they just don'tfeel like anybody understands.
Maybe this episode would be ablessing to them.
Our prayer is that God usesthis for his glory, and if it is
(56:12):
something that's touching youor you're witnessing it, we
would love to hear from you.
Ben (56:17):
Yeah, reach out.
Liz (56:18):
Reach out.
We'll pray for you, absolutely.
We are so thankful that you aretuning in to us today and also
follow us on Instagram orFacebook.
Our handle is our one numericone blessed mess.
We try to upload videos thereand some funny stories and
things.
So, you know, do, do subscribe,whether you're watching this,
(56:40):
listening however it may be, butuntil next time we see each
other, what we love to say isembrace your beautiful mess,
because if our mess is blessedand can be blessed, then what
then?
Then so can yours, then so canyours have a great day.
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