February 14, 2025 • 33 mins
Click here to get the book The Great Sex Rescue mentioned on this episode. (affiliate link)
Click here to get a free pdf guide on being a servitarian
This episode deepens the exploration of marriage dynamics through humor and personal stories while contrasting egalitarian and complementarian views. We advocate for a "servitarian" mindset, emphasizing love as mutual service and commitment over rigid roles, encouraging listeners to view their relationships through this lens of selflessness.
• Reflecting on early memories of dancing and humorous moments
• Exploring and defining egalitarianism and complementarianism
• Introducing the concept of “servitarian” as a new perspective
• Sharing personal anecdotes highlighting transformative moments in marriage
• Emphasizing the importance of serving one another
• Encouraging couples to embrace love in all its messiness
• Promoting a resource for deeper exploration of scripture
Your Listening to our 1 blessed mess, with ben and liz
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Liz (00:06):
Welcome to our One Blessed Mess with Ben and Liz.
We're here just telling ourstory of raising six kids in
eight years and also having anentrepreneurial home with two
businesses while raising fourteenagers and, of course, having
seven chickens and two dogs,you know, just to keep life
interesting.
Ben (00:25):
But today's topic conversation is about what ben
well, it kind of fits in linewith today's theme, which is
valentine's valentine's dayhappy v-day.
Happy v-day happy love dayy'all happy love day we're gonna
try to keep it real loving here, because we're going to talk
about this concept.
Liz (00:48):
Of marriage.
Ben (00:50):
Of marriage.
Yes, we're going to talk aboutlove.
We're going to talk about loveand marriage.
Love and marriage, but alsowhat an egalitarian and a
complementarian are.
Oh yeah, Big words we're evengoing to throw a third one in
there.
Big words yeah in our oh yeahand we're gonna, we're even
gonna throw a third one in there.
Big words yeah, but uh, yeah,we're gonna.
We're gonna dive into somethingthat's slightly controversial
(01:11):
ben.
Liz (01:11):
Do you remember when we were getting married?
It was like the week of ourwedding and we I had you do a
whole dance with me.
Do you remember that?
I don't know if I remember.
Ben (01:22):
You don't remember that yes , yes, wait, was it for our
rehearsal?
But that it we didn't end updoing it?
Liz (01:28):
but I I mean, we practiced for hours oh boy I just wanted
to be in your space, really, sothat's why I made you do this
dance what made you think ofthat?
Ben (01:37):
love and marriage oh, that was love and marriage.
Liz (01:41):
That was literally the song .
But what is?
It goes together like a horseand carriage.
Ben (01:46):
Man, I have like a really vague memory of that.
Liz (01:48):
Yeah, well, it's been two decades, but I don't even
remember all the choreography.
Ben (01:52):
I don't know if it's even a good memory.
Liz (01:54):
Well, gene Kelly and Ginger , you know we were trying.
Ben (02:00):
We were trying, it was a little white Christmas Not
really at all you kind of got mewhite christmas.
You kind of got me into dancingI did now, I was not a dancer
before, no, you were not.
No, I can swing, you can swing,dance.
You guys go a little bit youshould see us tango.
Liz (02:17):
Our kids are.
They're like stop, just stop,mom and dad.
So we actually go ballroomdancing, we try to go as often
as we can.
It's just kind of somethingthat we do together.
Ben (02:26):
Yeah, man, I'm loving all these love topics.
Liz (02:28):
I know.
Actually you're a really gooddancer.
Oh, thank you, you are.
In fact, you guys, when we weregetting married, we were
learning ballroom dancing andyou know where I'm going with
this anyway and so he would comehome or come from work.
I would say, come home, becausewe weren't married yet, but he
would come from work and meet meat the ballroom dance location
(02:50):
where we're having lessons, andthere were not enough partners
and there were ladies that weremy grandmother, my great
grandmother's age and literallynot kidding you guys they would
line up and they would push meout of the way to dance with my
fiance, and so we wanted to geta few dance lessons in before we
got married so that we werecomfortable out on the dance
(03:11):
floor, and then also, too, forour honeymoon, because we were
going on a cruise and we knewthere was going to be dancing
and all that.
Ben (03:15):
Yeah, yeah.
But you know, to be fair to theolder ladies, there were only
so many men to go around Right.
Not enough partners, definitelymore women at these dance
classes.
Liz (03:23):
Yeah, but around Not enough partners.
Definitely more women at thesedance classes.
Yeah, but you could.
Yeah, I definitely rememberthem like cutting in front of
you.
Oh, it was terrible.
I remember like showing onelady my engagement ring and then
, poor Ben, by the time I got todance with him which, by the
way, you smelled so nice, you'reso handsome and smells nice you
are a sweaty mess.
Your whole back was nothing butsweat because you had been
(03:43):
dancing nonstop.
You didn't even get a breakbecause it was like one right
after the other.
I'm glad you're laughing.
Oh, my God, yeah, and so anyway,I love, I do love dancing.
Ben (03:52):
You just triggered another memory of oh no.
Liz (03:54):
What.
Well you got to share now.
Ben (03:57):
I mean, we're already rolling, it's the fart story.
Liz (03:59):
Oh, no, ben Varan.
Ben (04:01):
You cannot.
It's Valentine's Day.
We might as well.
Liz (04:04):
Babe, Like seriously I mean .
Ben (04:08):
Really it's kind of it's a little bit.
It's a little bit.
Liz (04:11):
This one's not planned, you guys.
Ben (04:13):
Oh man, I don't.
I guess we're just going to gothere.
Liz (04:16):
You have to now, we have to now, unless we, we're going to
keep it, we're going to?
Ben (04:23):
Yeah, are we going to tell both of them, though I don't
know.
Liz (04:26):
I'm so embarrassed.
We should probably just go forit and tell both of them Okay,
let's do it, let's do it.
I'm really embarrassed rightnow.
Ben (04:36):
The first fart story.
Liz (04:37):
I'm thinking of.
Do we have to share thesestories?
Ben (04:39):
The first fart story I'm thinking of.
Liz (04:41):
I hate that word is when we were say expelled flatus, like
my grandmother taught meexpelled flatus.
Ben (04:46):
Or nobody says that I understand, but that's what she
had to say.
Liz (04:50):
Spell flatus.
Ben (04:52):
I'm saying fart.
Okay, gosh, are we going to getflagged for saying this, am I?
Liz (04:56):
You might have to be on the I don't know, I don't even
understand all the things thatyou're not supposed to say
anymore.
Ben (05:04):
But okay, well, anyways, let's get into the story.
So I'm trying to lay the story.
Do we have to?
I came over to your place whilewe were dating.
Liz (05:14):
Oh, and your sisters are there.
Yes, because you guys all livetogether.
Yeah, we live together, all thesisters, and it was quite the
venture.
Ben (05:19):
And this is this is when we were.
I don't remember how many likemonths we were into dating, but
it was probably.
I think we were engaged.
Yeah, we were probably engaged,I don't know.
Liz (05:28):
No, I don't know.
I think we were engaged and Iwas visiting because I lived in
another state and so I wasvisiting the sisters.
Yeah, that sounds right.
Why are we talking about this?
Ben (05:35):
So I was there and you were sitting on my lap and we were
talking to one of your sistersand what did you do?
Liz (05:44):
what did you?
Ben (05:44):
do you gotta tell them no?
I don't want to tell them whatyou did.
Tell them what you did.
You have to tell it.
You're telling the story youpass gas on me.
Thanks see, I didn't say fart,you pass gas on me, I did.
It was just one of those thingsit was.
Liz (05:57):
You know that special time of the month, and so you're a
little bit more flagellant isthat the word well, it's
definitely smelly.
Okay, I did, it was just one ofthose things.
It was that special time of themonth and so you're a little
bit more flagellant, is that theword?
Ben (06:07):
Well, it was definitely smelly.
Liz (06:08):
Okay, stop, benjamin.
That is awful Great.
Ben (06:13):
So you did, you passed gas on me.
This is supposed to be aboutlove and Valentine's Day.
You know we went fromValentine's Day to telling-.
Liz (06:19):
Okay, anyway, get to the point, so-.
Ben (06:20):
So you passed gas on me Right and I said and you have no
sisters.
I don't have any sisters hedoesn't have any sisters, so he
doesn't fully get it yet no,yeah, no, sisters, no grid for
you know.
Liz (06:32):
Women, women doing that, because your mother never does
that.
Your mother's perfect.
She doesn't.
Ben (06:38):
Oh mom, oh goodness, you know, I'm telling the truth,
it's true, it's true, shedoesn't, and so he doesn't have
a grid for that.
Liz (06:43):
So you were in shock, he was in shock.
Ben (06:45):
I was shocked and I was like oh my gosh what in the heck
Like this is what this is whatguys do Not, not what girls do
Okay, get onto the story, get on, get on.
Liz (06:58):
So I was like, don't do that and so and you can't help
it, it was jokingly, you wereflirty, whatever.
Ben (07:01):
Right and so then a little farther along what happens?
Liz (07:05):
Again, again, again.
Thanks, ben Did it again.
Yes, again.
Ben (07:08):
And what did I say?
Liz (07:09):
You said if you do that again, I'm going to pass gas on
your face.
And I was like what?
Ben (07:16):
You didn't believe me, did you?
Liz (07:17):
No, we're getting married.
Ben (07:25):
I'm thinking you like you would never do that to me that
is, and my sisters were sittingthere and they're like that's
gross, like who does that?
Liz (07:30):
this is an egalitarian view , oh anywho.
And so you know, I obviouslyagain thanks, ben for bringing
this up to the whole world.
Ben (07:38):
That's listening.
You pass gas on me and whathappened?
Liz (07:41):
I you're like that's's it.
And your face changed and Ithought oh shoot, he's telling
the truth, he's going to passgas on my face.
So I got up and I took off andran down the hall and I was
going to try to lock myself inthe bedroom.
Ben (07:56):
Yeah, that's right.
You tried to lock yourself inyour bedroom and you were there
a hot second and I was like no.
And, sure enough, I jumped onthe bed.
The bed, I guess.
Liz (08:08):
Yeah, you jumped on the bed and I literally jumped right on
your face yes, well, you didn'tjump on my face, sorry, I
jumped you jumped, and then youturned around and you sat on
your rear end on my face andwhat did he do?
Ben (08:19):
and I can't believe that I actually had to pass gas right
at that moment.
It was a beautiful thing.
I mean, it was so beautiful.
Liz (08:28):
Just telling it again Happy Valentine's Day.
I can't believe we're eventalking about this.
This was not the plan.
Ben (08:36):
Anyway.
So what a story.
Yeah, what a story.
Liz (08:39):
Anywho.
So I was in shock.
Of course.
My sister's like that'sdisgusting, and I'm like I know,
and I'm like this is so gross.
And he's like I told you don'tever do that again.
Ben (08:48):
I think one part story is good enough for today, yeah.
Liz (08:51):
Okay.
Ben (08:51):
That was pretty intense.
That was really intense, okay,so a good segue, I guess right
Is like hey you know, women doit, men do it.
Liz (09:01):
There you go, yeah.
Ben (09:02):
We're just going for it.
Wow, oh my gosh, all right.
So anyways, what a story.
I don't know if we can recoverfrom that, but Our kids are
going to hear this story, fyi.
We've got to get to the topic.
Okay, the topic is for today,not farting, although that was a
good story.
Liz (09:18):
Past gas, not past gas, spe Spelling flatus.
Ben (09:21):
Egalitarian versus complementarian, and so we came
across this topic because weread a book called the.
Great Sex Rescue by SheilaGregory, and we got a lot out of
the book.
Liz (09:34):
Yeah, there was good there was definitely some good things,
I mean of course, with everybook, you eat the meat and spit
out the bones, right, 100%, yeah, so it was good.
It was good.
Ben (09:42):
Yeah, and we recommend it.
We 100%.
Yeah, it was good, it was good,yeah, and we recommend it.
We recommend the book.
But as we were recommending thebook, we got some pushback.
In fact, some of us were like,hey, I can't read this because
the author is an egalitarian.
Liz (09:58):
Yep, which we didn't even know what that meant.
We're like what, oh sure.
Ben (10:05):
Yeah, egalitarian.
Yeah, oh yeah, it must be bad.
So then we started looking,tell you, oh yeah.
So then we started looking intoit.
So, yeah, we started lookinginto it and you know we were
trying to figure out like, okay,well, what's the controversy
here?
Liz (10:12):
and we're not even 100 sure that she is.
Ben (10:15):
Yeah, I mean, I think some of the things that she says in
the book kind of lean thatdirection.
Um, but she definitelyrecognized, you know, authority
structure coming from the Bibleand stuff like that, oh yeah.
And so we were just, we werejust a little confused as to why
, uh, there was so much pushbackon it, and so I'll just, we'll
(10:37):
just go into kind of like what,what defines egalitarian, what
defines complementarian, andthen also talk a little bit
about like kind of what we wherewe net it out as a couple.
Liz (10:50):
I like where we get as a couple.
Ben (10:51):
So let's kind of go through this a little quickly.
So you want to, you want totalk about the egalitarian, okay
?
Liz (10:55):
So an egalitarian.
Ben (11:26):
I so you want to talk of.
The basic egalitarian viewpointis that, you know, there's not
this less than greater than inmen and women in marriages, but
we're equal because we're equalin Christ.
Right so that's kind of theultimate premise and they you
know a lot of them would saythere's not like the direct
(11:52):
authority coming from the man inthe relationship that the woman
has to submit to all the time,that kind of thing.
So that's kind of thatviewpoint there, whereas the
complementarian is maintainingthat there is equality in worth
but difference in roles andfunctions.
So it's a little bit nuanced tokind of say that a couple of
(12:14):
times and think that throughwhat that actually means.
But it's taking more of aliteral approach to the passages
about the wife's submission andmale leadership.
It restricts certain churchleadership roles to men,
emphasizes male headship inmarriage and then sees gender
distinctions as part of God'sdesign for the family and church
order.
So some of that, you know,makes a lot of sense.
(12:37):
It's kind of an obvious thing.
If you're reading through thepassages you kind of come across
these and you're like, okay,yeah, that makes sense.
So one of the things that wewere noticing is like there's
definitely scripture references,that kind of like back both of
these positions, like you canread it and interpret it and
think, oh yeah, that sounds likean egalitarian.
Then you can read anotherpassage and be like oh yeah,
(12:58):
that's more complementarian.
And so what did we actually?
What did you come up with?
Liz (13:03):
Well, I came up with something Right.
This forced us to get into thescripture.
It did I mean this reallyforced us to get in there and
study.
Ben (13:10):
Because we didn't want to like send people astray.
We didn't want to recommend abook and then realize like, oh
yeah, this author is just wayoff base or whatever.
So we kind of dove into it.
We're like, okay, well, whatdoes this?
Liz (13:26):
what does it really mean to be one of these things?
But what did you come up with?
So, when we were discussing itand one of our morning
discussions with hot cups ofcoffee, Without passing gas.
Ben (13:33):
Wow, anyway, I'm just going to push you, because I just
want to push you.
That's going to be a theme, Ithink.
Liz (13:40):
I literally cannot believe we talked about this.
Anyway, I came up with a term.
I said well, what about being aservitarian?
And you know, that's not in allthe literature, that's out
there regarding this, but wekind of came up.
Ben (13:53):
That came right from Liz, yeah, it came from Liz.
Liz (13:55):
It was a Liz-ism.
But, you know, we kind of cameup with this what is a
servitarian?
Ben (13:59):
Because but where does it put the focus, Like right?
Liz (14:01):
So like when you're talking about egalitarian and
complementarian.
Ben (14:05):
The focus is like oh okay, we got to make sure we're
viewing that role, to make sureit's like you know it's accurate
, and there's like this right orthere's this the leadership
thing that you've got to makesure you're working out, or
whatever.
Liz (14:19):
But when you're looking at it kind of this servitarian what
do you put, yeah, what do youput the focus on the other
person?
Yeah, and serving the otherperson Right.
A hundred percent yeah.
Ben (14:30):
Because, ultimately, who was that example that we would
get that from?
Liz (14:34):
Oh, his name is JC.
Jc, what's up?
Jc For real Jesus.
Ben (14:40):
So I think, like that's the whole point.
Is we see the example thatJesus gives yes and it's like,
hey, we don't have to like getso hung up on.
You know who's got to obey whoin marriage and you know these
kinds of things.
Or is it more equal, really,when we put the focus off of
ourselves and we put it on theother person, then that's where
(15:03):
it makes the most sense, that'swhere we actually get.
I think the most value inloving our spouse is when we
love that spouse sacrificially.
Because no greater love thanthis.
A man lay down his life for hisfriend.
Can't we just apply that to toour spouses, like when we lay
down our lives for our spouses,like I feel like that's when the
love comes alive.
Liz (15:24):
Well, and that's very, very true, because there was a
moment in our marriage early onand I was not doing that.
I was very much looking at whatare you going to do for me,
what, what, what is happeninghere?
And it was actually kind of ascary time, and I feel like I
can talk about it pretty likewith authority and clarity right
(15:46):
now, because it's been a longtime.
Ben (15:49):
Right.
Liz (15:49):
But there was a time that I wanted out of this marriage.
I did not want to be in thismarriage Right, and I don't even
think you had a clue.
Ben (15:57):
Yeah, I don't think I did actually.
Liz (15:58):
No yeah.
Ben (15:59):
Well, I didn't know, that was the.
That was like what was in yourheart.
I knew like you were maybedisappointed, but I didn't know
that.
To like what extent, right,right.
Liz (16:07):
And what was going on was that I was basically looking at
everything that you were doingwrong.
I was looking at everythingthat was I was dissatisfied.
That was making me dissatisfied.
And you know you were workinglong hours, you were providing
for the family, I was home withkids.
You know there was this cyclethat we were in and you know we
(16:30):
were basically on an impasse.
You know I wasn't fully.
You know I didn't feel like Iwas fully being heard.
I'm sure you didn't feel likeyou were fully being heard.
And so, in the midst of all that, I was looking at other
marriages and going well, thatmarriage has this and that
marriage has that and I don'thave that in my marriage.
And so I was really beginningto think like I don't know if
this is going to work out.
(16:50):
I don't know what this is goingto be and this is kind of heavy
talking about this onValentine's Day, but I didn't
know.
And so in the midst of it, Iended up going to a mom's group
Bible study and the second timewe met, I remember them saying
because I went in disgruntledand I was just like ready to
complain about my marriage andwhere it was at and I'm a
(17:13):
positive person.
Ben (17:15):
Yikes must have been all that passing gas.
Liz (17:18):
Anyway, I'm just going to keep talking past that and I'm a
positive person, so it must'vebeen all that passing gas.
Anyway, I'm just going to keeptalking past that anyway.
But, um, I remember the secondweek we were there, the topic
came up on blessing our husbandsand loving our husbands and I
kind of was struggling with that.
I was like what are you kiddingme?
And the challenge was to loveyour husbands for the next two
weeks in ways that are theirlove languages and they're like
(17:42):
we all know a husband's numberone love language most husbands
anyway and so they're like that.
Ben (17:48):
But you know, you know, did we maybe do an episode on some
of that and family devotions?
Is that what you're talkingabout?
Liz (17:55):
Oh Lord, kind of oh Ben.
Ben (17:58):
That's a throwback.
There's an episode about familydevotions.
Sex ed family devotions.
Liz (18:02):
Yeah, yeah, anywho, but, um , you know it, it was look for
ways to serve your husband.
You know, beyond intimacy and Iand when I say intimacy, I-
mean between a husband and wifeand I and when I say intimacy, I
mean between a husband and wife, that's what we call it, we
call intimacy, and so I did.
I was looking for, you know,ways to serve you, like cooking
(18:24):
your favorite meals, you know,just trying to make things
easier when you came home, youknow these kind of things.
And so what was happening wasmy eyes were getting off of me
and they were getting on ahundred percent serving you, and
it wasn't like a master slavething, it's not like the head of
the house and you're the lowerend of the house, like it wasn't
(18:45):
that at all.
But what was happening?
Ben (18:47):
was voluntary.
Liz (18:48):
What was happening was my heart was changing the process
and literally there was amiracle that took place because
I went from looking at all thenegative, all the things that
you weren't doing, to the thingsthat you were doing, and and
seeing it from a differentperspective.
And then I don't know if youremember this part or not, I
don't know, but it was early onin our marriage when, when you
(19:09):
go to bed at night because I'm anatural encourager, like I love
to encourage people, and I wasnot encouraging you, like it was
you walked in the door and Iwas already ticked Like I love
to encourage people, and I wasnot encouraging you, like it was
you walked in the door and Iwas already ticked, like I just
was not happy and and so, as Iwas changing my perspective and
finding ways throughout the dayto serve and to love you, um,
whatever that would look like,and you're actually quality time
(19:31):
, um, but you also are, um,physical touch, you know, so,
hugging you when you came in thedoor and you're kind of acts of
service.
I'm more acts of service.
Ben (19:41):
Yeah, oh yeah, yeah, I'm definitely yeah, coffee in the
mornings.
Liz (19:44):
Coffee in the mornings.
Man Found it.
Yeah, it took 20 years, foundthe secret.
Ben (19:48):
Yeah, took 20 years To a better marriage.
Make your wife coffee, put yourlaundry.
Liz (20:00):
Yeah yeah, that's gift giving too, anyway.
So the point I'm trying to makeis, when we were going to bed
at night, after the kids were inbed, I would encourage you, as
you were going to sleep at night, and I would say things like
you're such a good provider, andI would point out the things
that I knew about you, that Iloved about you.
You know, saying you're a goodhusband, you're such a good dad,
and as you were falling asleep,literally, it was like my
(20:20):
desire was to bless you as muchas I could.
Right and there was, and youhave no memory of this, of
course.
Ben (20:27):
I mean I can't say that I remember that falling asleep
that's okay.
Yeah, I re, I remember once.
I, once I fall asleep, I'm kindof dead.
Liz (20:34):
Yeah, you are pretty dead, even when you have babies.
Ben (20:38):
This man can be asleep.
Oh, it's so bad For real.
Liz (20:40):
No, you can be asleep, there can be a blowout of a
child next to you.
I mean, we're talking yellowblowout and you are screaming
their heads off and youliterally sleep through it.
I'm like shoving you.
Ben (20:53):
Like.
Liz (20:54):
Ben, you need to wake up, and then you're like rolling
over almost into the explosionin our bed at like two in the
morning.
Ben (21:03):
It could be vomit and he sleeps right through it.
Liz (21:04):
Anyway, we all have our issues, it's okay.
It's okay.
We figured that out a long timeago.
But the thing that I'm tryingto get at is that, literally, a
miracle happened in my heartwhere it was all about serving
you.
And there's this whole thingright now about gratitude
serving you, and.
And there's this whole thingright now about gratitude, yeah
Right, and I.
This is before the big trend oflike the gratitude journals and
you know this whole.
Ben (21:23):
I love that but this isn't anything.
You're a forerunner.
Liz (21:26):
Yeah, sure, sure, I'll be a forerunner, but this was before
, like you know, I knew any ofthat stuff.
What was happening was I waslooking for the good instead of
looking for the bad, and I waslooking at how I could serve you
and love you, and my heartchanged.
Ben (21:40):
So good.
Liz (21:41):
And it really did change and it started with me.
It wasn't him making the change, it was me making the change.
It really does work, and weweren't seeing a counselor.
I wasn't confiding in anybody.
This was literally somethingthat I believe the Lord directed
me to do.
Thank God he did, because Idon't know where we would be
today and I don't know.
I think we just had a few kids.
Ben (22:01):
Yeah, yeah, I think you're right.
I think it was just one or two.
It was a few kids.
Liz (22:04):
That's how we have the metric.
Ben (22:06):
Measure time.
We measure time.
How many kids do we have?
When was Liz pregnant?
Oh man, Dude, that's an intensestory I forgot kind of some of
the details in that, but yeah,I'm really thankful that that
became your attitude and youwere the servitarian, before we
even knew what that was.
Liz (22:23):
How about that?
Before we made it up?
Ben (22:26):
Well, I think I mean that, like really, I think that really
shows the example of liketaking the eyes off of ourselves
and putting it on the otherperson in the good way right,
like not pointing out faults butnot trying to get what we want,
but instead giving what thatother person wants.
You know and like not beingselfish, not being selfish, yeah
(22:47):
which is hard it is hard andyou know it's.
it's almost like dying to self.
You know it's almost kind oflike that jesus guy knew what he
was talking about when he was,uh, you know, just showing the
way Right.
It's like that works in so manydifferent aspects of our
relationships.
When we take our eyes off ofthe things that we need and we,
(23:07):
we, we and it's all about me,and instead like focus on
serving and not like that, youstay in abusive relationship or
anything like that.
Liz (23:15):
No, like that you stay in abusive relationship or anything
like that.
Ben (23:18):
No, in fact if you are in one, you need to get help and
you need to take a break or getout 100%.
But if you're with someone whoyou know is a genuine person and
you know loves the Lord, it'slike there's so much there that
you can work with.
And you can find the good inthat person.
You can find what the Lord isdoing in that person and
champion that and celebrate that, which is what you did Right
(23:40):
and it changed your heart.
Liz (23:41):
Yeah, I mean it literally changed.
Yeah, I went from wanting outto wanting in and it's been that
way ever since.
And we've had other roughpatches.
I mean, there's more that we'vewalked through and we probably
will share some of those inepisodes future episodes.
But, you know that servitarianit's not 50-50, it's 100-100.
(24:05):
And you hear that all the time.
Ben (24:07):
Right.
Liz (24:07):
But what about if you're putting in 100 and the other
person's not?
Ben (24:11):
Well, I think that kind of right like it motivates that
other person to see man likethis person loves me.
Yeah, and I think that thatcan't be understated.
Like I get it right, like weall probably have seen
relationships, or even maybebeen in the relationship, where
you didn't give 100% and maybethe other spouse was doing it.
(24:33):
You notice that and, like I, Ifeel like you know, seeing that,
even from you and seeing howyou love me and you serve me,
like that really, um, I think,opens my heart to you as well.
Like, there's such a there'ssuch power in doing that.
Liz (24:51):
Right.
Ben (24:52):
That I feel like that other person who might not be giving
as much as the other.
If you notice that and you seethat like there's just something
that kind of starts your enginetowards your spouse, you know
like kind of revs and startsyour engine.
Yeah, I mean we got all kindsof crazy metaphors in this.
Liz (25:09):
It's Valentine's Day.
It's.
Ben (25:11):
Valentine's Day.
It's V-Day.
Liz (25:13):
It's V-Day, victory Day.
Ben (25:15):
Victory Day.
Liz (25:15):
Victory Day.
Yeah, I mean.
Ben (25:17):
I feel like that's just, that's the point.
I think that's the point we'retrying to make right.
It's like we get it.
We get that there's scripturesthat you know that kind of lean
this way or that way and it'sreally important to go through
them.
In fact, we're going to havelike a little study guide that
you guys can go through, whichis a little bit of the fruit
that we got from diving deepinto the scriptures and going
(25:40):
through the historical and thecontextual and cultural context
for these passages.
I know I said context twicethere.
It's like a double context ofthe context, but the cultural
and just the historical kind ofsignificance of these verses,
and really unpack it like whatit means and then also applying
it into other verses right,Making sure that like this kind
(26:03):
of authority thing that I feellike a lot of the
complementarians kind of leantowards, like they want to be
right so that they can exercisethis authority in a marriage
relationship, and I feel likeI've seen that more so than a
woman trying to do kind of moreof that egalitarian thing.
(26:24):
I feel like I see a lot of menand maybe it's just me, because
I'm a man kind of come at itfrom like, oh yeah, well,
definitely, the Bible iscomplementarian because men are
the authority and we have to bethe ones in control.
And I feel like that's where itgets on that slippery slope
right, when you start trying toexercise your authority because
you feel like it's God given,and you start skipping over
(26:46):
verses that talk about, like,submitting to one another.
Or laying down your life, orlaying down your life and
choosing your spouse over yourown needs.
You can find just as manyverses and I feel like man.
It just it kind of boggles yourmind.
And so again, that's where wekind of landed on this concept
of you know what, if we focusour 100% mental energy on
(27:11):
serving your spouse then it'samazing what comes back.
It's like reaping what you sowand just choosing to serve, not
putting the focus on.
Well, is he treating me equal,or is she submitting to me and
my role as this authoritystructure and blah, blah, blah,
(27:33):
but instead let's lay down ourlives for one another?
I feel like that's the heart ofthe matter.
Liz (27:40):
I feel like you do that well.
Ben (27:42):
Well, thank you.
Yeah, appreciate it.
I feel like you did a good jobtoo.
Liz (27:45):
Well, thank you, I'm not perfect, that's for sure.
Ben (27:48):
Well then you've got this guy that sometimes farts on you,
so that makes it makes it kindof hard probably to want to
serve.
Liz (27:54):
Oh, of course we're back to the potty humor again.
I mean, I told you guys wealways bring this stuff up
somehow, somehow it comes up.
Ben (28:02):
It does, it really does.
It's about humility.
It is.
It's about humility and serving, and I think we can't overstate
that.
Enough, right, it's about goinglow and about serving, and I'm
reminded of a verse in Mark, andlet's just read it.
It's Mark, chapter 10, 41through 45.
(28:23):
And when the 10 heard aboutthis, they became indigent with
James and John, and so whatwe're talking about here is like
James and John were askingJesus about sitting on his left
and his right hand Right, and sothe 10 thought about that as
like, oh well, they're asking tobe kind of like higher up in
(28:45):
the org chart.
Liz (28:46):
Right.
Ben (28:46):
They wanted to be left and right, Like where does that
leave us?
And so immediately they werelike offended because there was
this concept of like who's goingto be the highest in the
kingdom?
And jesus, kind of like calmsthem down, says jesus called
them together and said you knowthat those who are regarded as
rulers of the gentile lord itover them and their high
(29:09):
officials exercise authorityover them.
Not so with you.
Instead, whoever wants tobecome great among you must be
your servant, and whoever wantsto be first must be a slave of
all.
For even the son of man did notcome to be served but to serve
and to give his life as a ransomfor many did not come to be
(29:30):
served but to serve and to givehis life as a ransom for many.
So like we kind of see Jesusdeal with that little you know
little yeah, little tiff andhe's like hey guys, this is,
this isn't the way, this isn'tthe kingdom.
It's not to figure out who getsthe most authority, who gets to
exercise it over who Like.
That's, that's what theGentiles do, that's what this,
that's what this world does.
Liz (29:50):
Instead.
Ben (29:50):
I came to serve.
If you want to be in a positionof authority and leadership,
you've got to go low and serve,and I feel like that servitarian
mindset takes the argument away.
From which view is right?
Which scriptures do we need toread in more than others?
And just we're here to serve.
We're here to serve each otheryeah, and lay down our lives for
(30:11):
one another, like that's the,that's what Jesus is wanting us
to do.
I feel like that's what workswhen we do in the context of our
marriage.
And just like you talked about.
It really changes our outlook.
Liz (30:22):
That's right.
Ben (30:22):
Even when there's tough times, when we focus on that
serving piece, it really doesunlock something.
Liz (30:27):
Well and it did in my heart .
You know it served, it savedour marriage.
Ben (30:32):
Yeah.
Liz (30:32):
I mean, you know, looking back at that in that time, that
was kind of a scary place to be,and I know that there's others
that probably are listening tothis, maybe have been there or
are there.
Ben (30:42):
Right.
Liz (30:42):
And you know, there is something about laying down your
life for the other.
Ben (30:46):
There is, there really is, yeah, and it's hard to go
through.
It's not easy.
It's not an easy thing, noRight, you know, if it was so
easy, there wouldn't be a lot ofthis conversation about you
know, which way is right.
It would just become naturalbecause we're just so easy to
serve.
But it takes a lot of hard workand you're not hard selfish.
Liz (31:10):
Yeah.
Ben (31:11):
Not amazing Kind of born that way I know I am.
Liz (31:15):
This coffee is not hot enough.
Ben (31:17):
Go back and make me some more.
Liz (31:18):
Go back in there and make me more coffee.
Yeah, although I will say I doenjoy when you make me my cup of
coffee in the morning.
You, you guys, took a littlebit of training 20 years.
Well, I mean to get it justright With the right amount of
cream, the right color.
Now, keep in mind, I'm marriedto an artist.
So it's, all about the color,like he figured out the shade.
Ben (31:40):
Maybe I should get like a latte machine and do like the
little you know, the leaf petalsand the milk.
Oh yeah, you know what I'msaying you?
Liz (31:48):
need to be doing that.
Ben (31:50):
I would like for you to serve me like that.
I feel like this just gotreally expensive.
Liz (31:54):
You're just kidding.
And now, too late too late, toolate.
So there's going to be a studyguide.
Ben (32:04):
There is.
Yeah, we'll put a little linkand it'll go through like a lot
of the verses that typically theegalitarian viewpoint come from
, and then also thecomplementarian.
Yeah, and you know we do like adeep dive and we just go through
them and we talk about whatmeans for each context and stuff
, and then kind of where we netout, just where we have netted
out personally and with thisservitarian mindset.
So if you guys are interestedin that, just take a look at the
(32:26):
show notes and there'll be away to get that information.
Liz (32:31):
And we just want to say happy Valentine's Day.
Ben (32:33):
Yeah, happy Valentine's Day Happy.
Liz (32:34):
Valentine's Day.
We are so happy and we lovelove and we're all about love.
Ben (32:40):
That's right, even in the form of passing gas.
Liz (32:43):
Okay, so we're going to end on that.
Note, now we're done.
I was going to be alllovey-dovey, but we're over.
So note, now we're done.
I was going to be all loveydovey, but we're over.
So thank you for being a partof our one blessed mess today.
It literally has been a blessedmess, our one BM for real.
But don't forget to subscribe,share like heart, however you're
listening to this, and passthis along to somebody that you
(33:04):
think would be encouraged.
Of course, we are talking aboutValentine's day, but, truly,
like, every day should beValentine's Day.
It doesn't have to be just oneday.
We feel like this topic and thesubject that we're talking
about is good for a lot ofpeople to hear and maybe to
bring clarity.
Definitely, check out thatstudy guide below, but follow us
on Instagram.
We do have a Instagram page.
(33:26):
We have a Facebook page, sofollow us there.
But just remember, until nexttime, embrace your beautiful
mess, because if our mess can beblessed, then we know, so can
yours.
Yes, it can have a great, greatday.
Welcome to our One Blessed Mess with Ben and Liz.
We're here just telling ourstory of raising six kids in
eight years and also having anentrepreneurial home with two
businesses while raising fourteenagers and, of course, having
seven chickens and two dogs,you know, just to keep life
interesting.
Ben (00:25):
But today's topic conversation is about what ben
well, it kind of fits in linewith today's theme, which is
valentine's valentine's dayhappy v-day.
Happy v-day happy love dayy'all happy love day we're gonna
try to keep it real loving here, because we're going to talk
about this concept.
Liz (00:48):
Of marriage.
Ben (00:50):
Of marriage.
Yes, we're going to talk aboutlove.
We're going to talk about loveand marriage.
Love and marriage, but alsowhat an egalitarian and a
complementarian are.
Oh yeah, Big words we're evengoing to throw a third one in
there.
Big words yeah in our oh yeahand we're gonna, we're even
gonna throw a third one in there.
Big words yeah, but uh, yeah,we're gonna.
We're gonna dive into somethingthat's slightly controversial
(01:11):
ben.
Liz (01:11):
Do you remember when we were getting married?
It was like the week of ourwedding and we I had you do a
whole dance with me.
Do you remember that?
I don't know if I remember.
Ben (01:22):
You don't remember that yes , yes, wait, was it for our
rehearsal?
But that it we didn't end updoing it?
Liz (01:28):
but I I mean, we practiced for hours oh boy I just wanted
to be in your space, really, sothat's why I made you do this
dance what made you think ofthat?
Ben (01:37):
love and marriage oh, that was love and marriage.
Liz (01:41):
That was literally the song .
But what is?
It goes together like a horseand carriage.
Ben (01:46):
Man, I have like a really vague memory of that.
Liz (01:48):
Yeah, well, it's been two decades, but I don't even
remember all the choreography.
Ben (01:52):
I don't know if it's even a good memory.
Liz (01:54):
Well, gene Kelly and Ginger , you know we were trying.
Ben (02:00):
We were trying, it was a little white Christmas Not
really at all you kind of got mewhite christmas.
You kind of got me into dancingI did now, I was not a dancer
before, no, you were not.
No, I can swing, you can swing,dance.
You guys go a little bit youshould see us tango.
Liz (02:17):
Our kids are.
They're like stop, just stop,mom and dad.
So we actually go ballroomdancing, we try to go as often
as we can.
It's just kind of somethingthat we do together.
Ben (02:26):
Yeah, man, I'm loving all these love topics.
Liz (02:28):
I know.
Actually you're a really gooddancer.
Oh, thank you, you are.
In fact, you guys, when we weregetting married, we were
learning ballroom dancing andyou know where I'm going with
this anyway and so he would comehome or come from work.
I would say, come home, becausewe weren't married yet, but he
would come from work and meet meat the ballroom dance location
(02:50):
where we're having lessons, andthere were not enough partners
and there were ladies that weremy grandmother, my great
grandmother's age and literallynot kidding you guys they would
line up and they would push meout of the way to dance with my
fiance, and so we wanted to geta few dance lessons in before we
got married so that we werecomfortable out on the dance
(03:11):
floor, and then also, too, forour honeymoon, because we were
going on a cruise and we knewthere was going to be dancing
and all that.
Ben (03:15):
Yeah, yeah.
But you know, to be fair to theolder ladies, there were only
so many men to go around Right.
Not enough partners, definitelymore women at these dance
classes.
Liz (03:23):
Yeah, but around Not enough partners.
Definitely more women at thesedance classes.
Yeah, but you could.
Yeah, I definitely rememberthem like cutting in front of
you.
Oh, it was terrible.
I remember like showing onelady my engagement ring and then
, poor Ben, by the time I got todance with him which, by the
way, you smelled so nice, you'reso handsome and smells nice you
are a sweaty mess.
Your whole back was nothing butsweat because you had been
(03:43):
dancing nonstop.
You didn't even get a breakbecause it was like one right
after the other.
I'm glad you're laughing.
Oh, my God, yeah, and so anyway,I love, I do love dancing.
Ben (03:52):
You just triggered another memory of oh no.
Liz (03:54):
What.
Well you got to share now.
Ben (03:57):
I mean, we're already rolling, it's the fart story.
Liz (03:59):
Oh, no, ben Varan.
Ben (04:01):
You cannot.
It's Valentine's Day.
We might as well.
Liz (04:04):
Babe, Like seriously I mean .
Ben (04:08):
Really it's kind of it's a little bit.
It's a little bit.
Liz (04:11):
This one's not planned, you guys.
Ben (04:13):
Oh man, I don't.
I guess we're just going to gothere.
Liz (04:16):
You have to now, we have to now, unless we, we're going to
keep it, we're going to?
Ben (04:23):
Yeah, are we going to tell both of them, though I don't
know.
Liz (04:26):
I'm so embarrassed.
We should probably just go forit and tell both of them Okay,
let's do it, let's do it.
I'm really embarrassed rightnow.
Ben (04:36):
The first fart story.
Liz (04:37):
I'm thinking of.
Do we have to share thesestories?
Ben (04:39):
The first fart story I'm thinking of.
Liz (04:41):
I hate that word is when we were say expelled flatus, like
my grandmother taught meexpelled flatus.
Ben (04:46):
Or nobody says that I understand, but that's what she
had to say.
Liz (04:50):
Spell flatus.
Ben (04:52):
I'm saying fart.
Okay, gosh, are we going to getflagged for saying this, am I?
Liz (04:56):
You might have to be on the I don't know, I don't even
understand all the things thatyou're not supposed to say
anymore.
Ben (05:04):
But okay, well, anyways, let's get into the story.
So I'm trying to lay the story.
Do we have to?
I came over to your place whilewe were dating.
Liz (05:14):
Oh, and your sisters are there.
Yes, because you guys all livetogether.
Yeah, we live together, all thesisters, and it was quite the
venture.
Ben (05:19):
And this is this is when we were.
I don't remember how many likemonths we were into dating, but
it was probably.
I think we were engaged.
Yeah, we were probably engaged,I don't know.
Liz (05:28):
No, I don't know.
I think we were engaged and Iwas visiting because I lived in
another state and so I wasvisiting the sisters.
Yeah, that sounds right.
Why are we talking about this?
Ben (05:35):
So I was there and you were sitting on my lap and we were
talking to one of your sistersand what did you do?
Liz (05:44):
what did you?
Ben (05:44):
do you gotta tell them no?
I don't want to tell them whatyou did.
Tell them what you did.
You have to tell it.
You're telling the story youpass gas on me.
Thanks see, I didn't say fart,you pass gas on me, I did.
It was just one of those thingsit was.
Liz (05:57):
You know that special time of the month, and so you're a
little bit more flagellant isthat the word well, it's
definitely smelly.
Okay, I did, it was just one ofthose things.
It was that special time of themonth and so you're a little
bit more flagellant, is that theword?
Ben (06:07):
Well, it was definitely smelly.
Liz (06:08):
Okay, stop, benjamin.
That is awful Great.
Ben (06:13):
So you did, you passed gas on me.
This is supposed to be aboutlove and Valentine's Day.
You know we went fromValentine's Day to telling-.
Liz (06:19):
Okay, anyway, get to the point, so-.
Ben (06:20):
So you passed gas on me Right and I said and you have no
sisters.
I don't have any sisters hedoesn't have any sisters, so he
doesn't fully get it yet no,yeah, no, sisters, no grid for
you know.
Liz (06:32):
Women, women doing that, because your mother never does
that.
Your mother's perfect.
She doesn't.
Ben (06:38):
Oh mom, oh goodness, you know, I'm telling the truth,
it's true, it's true, shedoesn't, and so he doesn't have
a grid for that.
Liz (06:43):
So you were in shock, he was in shock.
Ben (06:45):
I was shocked and I was like oh my gosh what in the heck
Like this is what this is whatguys do Not, not what girls do
Okay, get onto the story, get on, get on.
Liz (06:58):
So I was like, don't do that and so and you can't help
it, it was jokingly, you wereflirty, whatever.
Ben (07:01):
Right and so then a little farther along what happens?
Liz (07:05):
Again, again, again.
Thanks, ben Did it again.
Yes, again.
Ben (07:08):
And what did I say?
Liz (07:09):
You said if you do that again, I'm going to pass gas on
your face.
And I was like what?
Ben (07:16):
You didn't believe me, did you?
Liz (07:17):
No, we're getting married.
Ben (07:25):
I'm thinking you like you would never do that to me that
is, and my sisters were sittingthere and they're like that's
gross, like who does that?
Liz (07:30):
this is an egalitarian view , oh anywho.
And so you know, I obviouslyagain thanks, ben for bringing
this up to the whole world.
Ben (07:38):
That's listening.
You pass gas on me and whathappened?
Liz (07:41):
I you're like that's's it.
And your face changed and Ithought oh shoot, he's telling
the truth, he's going to passgas on my face.
So I got up and I took off andran down the hall and I was
going to try to lock myself inthe bedroom.
Ben (07:56):
Yeah, that's right.
You tried to lock yourself inyour bedroom and you were there
a hot second and I was like no.
And, sure enough, I jumped onthe bed.
The bed, I guess.
Liz (08:08):
Yeah, you jumped on the bed and I literally jumped right on
your face yes, well, you didn'tjump on my face, sorry, I
jumped you jumped, and then youturned around and you sat on
your rear end on my face andwhat did he do?
Ben (08:19):
and I can't believe that I actually had to pass gas right
at that moment.
It was a beautiful thing.
I mean, it was so beautiful.
Liz (08:28):
Just telling it again Happy Valentine's Day.
I can't believe we're eventalking about this.
This was not the plan.
Ben (08:36):
Anyway.
So what a story.
Yeah, what a story.
Liz (08:39):
Anywho.
So I was in shock.
Of course.
My sister's like that'sdisgusting, and I'm like I know,
and I'm like this is so gross.
And he's like I told you don'tever do that again.
Ben (08:48):
I think one part story is good enough for today, yeah.
Liz (08:51):
Okay.
Ben (08:51):
That was pretty intense.
That was really intense, okay,so a good segue, I guess right
Is like hey you know, women doit, men do it.
Liz (09:01):
There you go, yeah.
Ben (09:02):
We're just going for it.
Wow, oh my gosh, all right.
So anyways, what a story.
I don't know if we can recoverfrom that, but Our kids are
going to hear this story, fyi.
We've got to get to the topic.
Okay, the topic is for today,not farting, although that was a
good story.
Liz (09:18):
Past gas, not past gas, spe Spelling flatus.
Ben (09:21):
Egalitarian versus complementarian, and so we came
across this topic because weread a book called the.
Great Sex Rescue by SheilaGregory, and we got a lot out of
the book.
Liz (09:34):
Yeah, there was good there was definitely some good things,
I mean of course, with everybook, you eat the meat and spit
out the bones, right, 100%, yeah, so it was good.
It was good.
Ben (09:42):
Yeah, and we recommend it.
We 100%.
Yeah, it was good, it was good,yeah, and we recommend it.
We recommend the book.
But as we were recommending thebook, we got some pushback.
In fact, some of us were like,hey, I can't read this because
the author is an egalitarian.
Liz (09:58):
Yep, which we didn't even know what that meant.
We're like what, oh sure.
Ben (10:05):
Yeah, egalitarian.
Yeah, oh yeah, it must be bad.
So then we started looking,tell you, oh yeah.
So then we started looking intoit.
So, yeah, we started lookinginto it and you know we were
trying to figure out like, okay,well, what's the controversy
here?
Liz (10:12):
and we're not even 100 sure that she is.
Ben (10:15):
Yeah, I mean, I think some of the things that she says in
the book kind of lean thatdirection.
Um, but she definitelyrecognized, you know, authority
structure coming from the Bibleand stuff like that, oh yeah.
And so we were just, we werejust a little confused as to why
, uh, there was so much pushbackon it, and so I'll just, we'll
(10:37):
just go into kind of like what,what defines egalitarian, what
defines complementarian, andthen also talk a little bit
about like kind of what we wherewe net it out as a couple.
Liz (10:50):
I like where we get as a couple.
Ben (10:51):
So let's kind of go through this a little quickly.
So you want to, you want totalk about the egalitarian, okay
?
Liz (10:55):
So an egalitarian.
Ben (11:26):
I so you want to talk of.
The basic egalitarian viewpointis that, you know, there's not
this less than greater than inmen and women in marriages, but
we're equal because we're equalin Christ.
Right so that's kind of theultimate premise and they you
know a lot of them would saythere's not like the direct
(11:52):
authority coming from the man inthe relationship that the woman
has to submit to all the time,that kind of thing.
So that's kind of thatviewpoint there, whereas the
complementarian is maintainingthat there is equality in worth
but difference in roles andfunctions.
So it's a little bit nuanced tokind of say that a couple of
(12:14):
times and think that throughwhat that actually means.
But it's taking more of aliteral approach to the passages
about the wife's submission andmale leadership.
It restricts certain churchleadership roles to men,
emphasizes male headship inmarriage and then sees gender
distinctions as part of God'sdesign for the family and church
order.
So some of that, you know,makes a lot of sense.
(12:37):
It's kind of an obvious thing.
If you're reading through thepassages you kind of come across
these and you're like, okay,yeah, that makes sense.
So one of the things that wewere noticing is like there's
definitely scripture references,that kind of like back both of
these positions, like you canread it and interpret it and
think, oh yeah, that sounds likean egalitarian.
Then you can read anotherpassage and be like oh yeah,
(12:58):
that's more complementarian.
And so what did we actually?
What did you come up with?
Liz (13:03):
Well, I came up with something Right.
This forced us to get into thescripture.
It did I mean this reallyforced us to get in there and
study.
Ben (13:10):
Because we didn't want to like send people astray.
We didn't want to recommend abook and then realize like, oh
yeah, this author is just wayoff base or whatever.
So we kind of dove into it.
We're like, okay, well, whatdoes this?
Liz (13:26):
what does it really mean to be one of these things?
But what did you come up with?
So, when we were discussing itand one of our morning
discussions with hot cups ofcoffee, Without passing gas.
Ben (13:33):
Wow, anyway, I'm just going to push you, because I just
want to push you.
That's going to be a theme, Ithink.
Liz (13:40):
I literally cannot believe we talked about this.
Anyway, I came up with a term.
I said well, what about being aservitarian?
And you know, that's not in allthe literature, that's out
there regarding this, but wekind of came up.
Ben (13:53):
That came right from Liz, yeah, it came from Liz.
Liz (13:55):
It was a Liz-ism.
But, you know, we kind of cameup with this what is a
servitarian?
Ben (13:59):
Because but where does it put the focus, Like right?
Liz (14:01):
So like when you're talking about egalitarian and
complementarian.
Ben (14:05):
The focus is like oh okay, we got to make sure we're
viewing that role, to make sureit's like you know it's accurate
, and there's like this right orthere's this the leadership
thing that you've got to makesure you're working out, or
whatever.
Liz (14:19):
But when you're looking at it kind of this servitarian what
do you put, yeah, what do youput the focus on the other
person?
Yeah, and serving the otherperson Right.
A hundred percent yeah.
Ben (14:30):
Because, ultimately, who was that example that we would
get that from?
Liz (14:34):
Oh, his name is JC.
Jc, what's up?
Jc For real Jesus.
Ben (14:40):
So I think, like that's the whole point.
Is we see the example thatJesus gives yes and it's like,
hey, we don't have to like getso hung up on.
You know who's got to obey whoin marriage and you know these
kinds of things.
Or is it more equal, really,when we put the focus off of
ourselves and we put it on theother person, then that's where
(15:03):
it makes the most sense, that'swhere we actually get.
I think the most value inloving our spouse is when we
love that spouse sacrificially.
Because no greater love thanthis.
A man lay down his life for hisfriend.
Can't we just apply that to toour spouses, like when we lay
down our lives for our spouses,like I feel like that's when the
love comes alive.
Liz (15:24):
Well, and that's very, very true, because there was a
moment in our marriage early onand I was not doing that.
I was very much looking at whatare you going to do for me,
what, what, what is happeninghere?
And it was actually kind of ascary time, and I feel like I
can talk about it pretty likewith authority and clarity right
(15:46):
now, because it's been a longtime.
Ben (15:49):
Right.
Liz (15:49):
But there was a time that I wanted out of this marriage.
I did not want to be in thismarriage Right, and I don't even
think you had a clue.
Ben (15:57):
Yeah, I don't think I did actually.
Liz (15:58):
No yeah.
Ben (15:59):
Well, I didn't know, that was the.
That was like what was in yourheart.
I knew like you were maybedisappointed, but I didn't know
that.
To like what extent, right,right.
Liz (16:07):
And what was going on was that I was basically looking at
everything that you were doingwrong.
I was looking at everythingthat was I was dissatisfied.
That was making me dissatisfied.
And you know you were workinglong hours, you were providing
for the family, I was home withkids.
You know there was this cyclethat we were in and you know we
(16:30):
were basically on an impasse.
You know I wasn't fully.
You know I didn't feel like Iwas fully being heard.
I'm sure you didn't feel likeyou were fully being heard.
And so, in the midst of all that, I was looking at other
marriages and going well, thatmarriage has this and that
marriage has that and I don'thave that in my marriage.
And so I was really beginningto think like I don't know if
this is going to work out.
(16:50):
I don't know what this is goingto be and this is kind of heavy
talking about this onValentine's Day, but I didn't
know.
And so in the midst of it, Iended up going to a mom's group
Bible study and the second timewe met, I remember them saying
because I went in disgruntledand I was just like ready to
complain about my marriage andwhere it was at and I'm a
(17:13):
positive person.
Ben (17:15):
Yikes must have been all that passing gas.
Liz (17:18):
Anyway, I'm just going to keep talking past that and I'm a
positive person, so it must'vebeen all that passing gas.
Anyway, I'm just going to keeptalking past that anyway.
But, um, I remember the secondweek we were there, the topic
came up on blessing our husbandsand loving our husbands and I
kind of was struggling with that.
I was like what are you kiddingme?
And the challenge was to loveyour husbands for the next two
weeks in ways that are theirlove languages and they're like
(17:42):
we all know a husband's numberone love language most husbands
anyway and so they're like that.
Ben (17:48):
But you know, you know, did we maybe do an episode on some
of that and family devotions?
Is that what you're talkingabout?
Liz (17:55):
Oh Lord, kind of oh Ben.
Ben (17:58):
That's a throwback.
There's an episode about familydevotions.
Sex ed family devotions.
Liz (18:02):
Yeah, yeah, anywho, but, um , you know it, it was look for
ways to serve your husband.
You know, beyond intimacy and Iand when I say intimacy, I-
mean between a husband and wifeand I and when I say intimacy, I
mean between a husband and wife, that's what we call it, we
call intimacy, and so I did.
I was looking for, you know,ways to serve you, like cooking
(18:24):
your favorite meals, you know,just trying to make things
easier when you came home, youknow these kind of things.
And so what was happening wasmy eyes were getting off of me
and they were getting on ahundred percent serving you, and
it wasn't like a master slavething, it's not like the head of
the house and you're the lowerend of the house, like it wasn't
(18:45):
that at all.
But what was happening?
Ben (18:47):
was voluntary.
Liz (18:48):
What was happening was my heart was changing the process
and literally there was amiracle that took place because
I went from looking at all thenegative, all the things that
you weren't doing, to the thingsthat you were doing, and and
seeing it from a differentperspective.
And then I don't know if youremember this part or not, I
don't know, but it was early onin our marriage when, when you
(19:09):
go to bed at night because I'm anatural encourager, like I love
to encourage people, and I wasnot encouraging you, like it was
you walked in the door and Iwas already ticked Like I love
to encourage people, and I wasnot encouraging you, like it was
you walked in the door and Iwas already ticked, like I just
was not happy and and so, as Iwas changing my perspective and
finding ways throughout the dayto serve and to love you, um,
whatever that would look like,and you're actually quality time
(19:31):
, um, but you also are, um,physical touch, you know, so,
hugging you when you came in thedoor and you're kind of acts of
service.
I'm more acts of service.
Ben (19:41):
Yeah, oh yeah, yeah, I'm definitely yeah, coffee in the
mornings.
Liz (19:44):
Coffee in the mornings.
Man Found it.
Yeah, it took 20 years, foundthe secret.
Ben (19:48):
Yeah, took 20 years To a better marriage.
Make your wife coffee, put yourlaundry.
Liz (20:00):
Yeah yeah, that's gift giving too, anyway.
So the point I'm trying to makeis, when we were going to bed
at night, after the kids were inbed, I would encourage you, as
you were going to sleep at night, and I would say things like
you're such a good provider, andI would point out the things
that I knew about you, that Iloved about you.
You know, saying you're a goodhusband, you're such a good dad,
and as you were falling asleep,literally, it was like my
(20:20):
desire was to bless you as muchas I could.
Right and there was, and youhave no memory of this, of
course.
Ben (20:27):
I mean I can't say that I remember that falling asleep
that's okay.
Yeah, I re, I remember once.
I, once I fall asleep, I'm kindof dead.
Liz (20:34):
Yeah, you are pretty dead, even when you have babies.
Ben (20:38):
This man can be asleep.
Oh, it's so bad For real.
Liz (20:40):
No, you can be asleep, there can be a blowout of a
child next to you.
I mean, we're talking yellowblowout and you are screaming
their heads off and youliterally sleep through it.
I'm like shoving you.
Ben (20:53):
Like.
Liz (20:54):
Ben, you need to wake up, and then you're like rolling
over almost into the explosionin our bed at like two in the
morning.
Ben (21:03):
It could be vomit and he sleeps right through it.
Liz (21:04):
Anyway, we all have our issues, it's okay.
It's okay.
We figured that out a long timeago.
But the thing that I'm tryingto get at is that, literally, a
miracle happened in my heartwhere it was all about serving
you.
And there's this whole thingright now about gratitude
serving you, and.
And there's this whole thingright now about gratitude, yeah
Right, and I.
This is before the big trend oflike the gratitude journals and
you know this whole.
Ben (21:23):
I love that but this isn't anything.
You're a forerunner.
Liz (21:26):
Yeah, sure, sure, I'll be a forerunner, but this was before
, like you know, I knew any ofthat stuff.
What was happening was I waslooking for the good instead of
looking for the bad, and I waslooking at how I could serve you
and love you, and my heartchanged.
Ben (21:40):
So good.
Liz (21:41):
And it really did change and it started with me.
It wasn't him making the change, it was me making the change.
It really does work, and weweren't seeing a counselor.
I wasn't confiding in anybody.
This was literally somethingthat I believe the Lord directed
me to do.
Thank God he did, because Idon't know where we would be
today and I don't know.
I think we just had a few kids.
Ben (22:01):
Yeah, yeah, I think you're right.
I think it was just one or two.
It was a few kids.
Liz (22:04):
That's how we have the metric.
Ben (22:06):
Measure time.
We measure time.
How many kids do we have?
When was Liz pregnant?
Oh man, Dude, that's an intensestory I forgot kind of some of
the details in that, but yeah,I'm really thankful that that
became your attitude and youwere the servitarian, before we
even knew what that was.
Liz (22:23):
How about that?
Before we made it up?
Ben (22:26):
Well, I think I mean that, like really, I think that really
shows the example of liketaking the eyes off of ourselves
and putting it on the otherperson in the good way right,
like not pointing out faults butnot trying to get what we want,
but instead giving what thatother person wants.
You know and like not beingselfish, not being selfish, yeah
(22:47):
which is hard it is hard andyou know it's.
it's almost like dying to self.
You know it's almost kind oflike that jesus guy knew what he
was talking about when he was,uh, you know, just showing the
way Right.
It's like that works in so manydifferent aspects of our
relationships.
When we take our eyes off ofthe things that we need and we,
(23:07):
we, we and it's all about me,and instead like focus on
serving and not like that, youstay in abusive relationship or
anything like that.
Liz (23:15):
No, like that you stay in abusive relationship or anything
like that.
Ben (23:18):
No, in fact if you are in one, you need to get help and
you need to take a break or getout 100%.
But if you're with someone whoyou know is a genuine person and
you know loves the Lord, it'slike there's so much there that
you can work with.
And you can find the good inthat person.
You can find what the Lord isdoing in that person and
champion that and celebrate that, which is what you did Right
(23:40):
and it changed your heart.
Liz (23:41):
Yeah, I mean it literally changed.
Yeah, I went from wanting outto wanting in and it's been that
way ever since.
And we've had other roughpatches.
I mean, there's more that we'vewalked through and we probably
will share some of those inepisodes future episodes.
But, you know that servitarianit's not 50-50, it's 100-100.
(24:05):
And you hear that all the time.
Ben (24:07):
Right.
Liz (24:07):
But what about if you're putting in 100 and the other
person's not?
Ben (24:11):
Well, I think that kind of right like it motivates that
other person to see man likethis person loves me.
Yeah, and I think that thatcan't be understated.
Like I get it right, like weall probably have seen
relationships, or even maybebeen in the relationship, where
you didn't give 100% and maybethe other spouse was doing it.
(24:33):
You notice that and, like I, Ifeel like you know, seeing that,
even from you and seeing howyou love me and you serve me,
like that really, um, I think,opens my heart to you as well.
Like, there's such a there'ssuch power in doing that.
Liz (24:51):
Right.
Ben (24:52):
That I feel like that other person who might not be giving
as much as the other.
If you notice that and you seethat like there's just something
that kind of starts your enginetowards your spouse, you know
like kind of revs and startsyour engine.
Yeah, I mean we got all kindsof crazy metaphors in this.
Liz (25:09):
It's Valentine's Day.
It's.
Ben (25:11):
Valentine's Day.
It's V-Day.
Liz (25:13):
It's V-Day, victory Day.
Ben (25:15):
Victory Day.
Liz (25:15):
Victory Day.
Yeah, I mean.
Ben (25:17):
I feel like that's just, that's the point.
I think that's the point we'retrying to make right.
It's like we get it.
We get that there's scripturesthat you know that kind of lean
this way or that way and it'sreally important to go through
them.
In fact, we're going to havelike a little study guide that
you guys can go through, whichis a little bit of the fruit
that we got from diving deepinto the scriptures and going
(25:40):
through the historical and thecontextual and cultural context
for these passages.
I know I said context twicethere.
It's like a double context ofthe context, but the cultural
and just the historical kind ofsignificance of these verses,
and really unpack it like whatit means and then also applying
it into other verses right,Making sure that like this kind
(26:03):
of authority thing that I feellike a lot of the
complementarians kind of leantowards, like they want to be
right so that they can exercisethis authority in a marriage
relationship, and I feel likeI've seen that more so than a
woman trying to do kind of moreof that egalitarian thing.
(26:24):
I feel like I see a lot of menand maybe it's just me, because
I'm a man kind of come at itfrom like, oh yeah, well,
definitely, the Bible iscomplementarian because men are
the authority and we have to bethe ones in control.
And I feel like that's where itgets on that slippery slope
right, when you start trying toexercise your authority because
you feel like it's God given,and you start skipping over
(26:46):
verses that talk about, like,submitting to one another.
Or laying down your life, orlaying down your life and
choosing your spouse over yourown needs.
You can find just as manyverses and I feel like man.
It just it kind of boggles yourmind.
And so again, that's where wekind of landed on this concept
of you know what, if we focusour 100% mental energy on
(27:11):
serving your spouse then it'samazing what comes back.
It's like reaping what you sowand just choosing to serve, not
putting the focus on.
Well, is he treating me equal,or is she submitting to me and
my role as this authoritystructure and blah, blah, blah,
(27:33):
but instead let's lay down ourlives for one another?
I feel like that's the heart ofthe matter.
Liz (27:40):
I feel like you do that well.
Ben (27:42):
Well, thank you.
Yeah, appreciate it.
I feel like you did a good jobtoo.
Liz (27:45):
Well, thank you, I'm not perfect, that's for sure.
Ben (27:48):
Well then you've got this guy that sometimes farts on you,
so that makes it makes it kindof hard probably to want to
serve.
Liz (27:54):
Oh, of course we're back to the potty humor again.
I mean, I told you guys wealways bring this stuff up
somehow, somehow it comes up.
Ben (28:02):
It does, it really does.
It's about humility.
It is.
It's about humility and serving, and I think we can't overstate
that.
Enough, right, it's about goinglow and about serving, and I'm
reminded of a verse in Mark, andlet's just read it.
It's Mark, chapter 10, 41through 45.
(28:23):
And when the 10 heard aboutthis, they became indigent with
James and John, and so whatwe're talking about here is like
James and John were askingJesus about sitting on his left
and his right hand Right, and sothe 10 thought about that as
like, oh well, they're asking tobe kind of like higher up in
(28:45):
the org chart.
Liz (28:46):
Right.
Ben (28:46):
They wanted to be left and right, Like where does that
leave us?
And so immediately they werelike offended because there was
this concept of like who's goingto be the highest in the
kingdom?
And jesus, kind of like calmsthem down, says jesus called
them together and said you knowthat those who are regarded as
rulers of the gentile lord itover them and their high
(29:09):
officials exercise authorityover them.
Not so with you.
Instead, whoever wants tobecome great among you must be
your servant, and whoever wantsto be first must be a slave of
all.
For even the son of man did notcome to be served but to serve
and to give his life as a ransomfor many did not come to be
(29:30):
served but to serve and to givehis life as a ransom for many.
So like we kind of see Jesusdeal with that little you know
little yeah, little tiff andhe's like hey guys, this is,
this isn't the way, this isn'tthe kingdom.
It's not to figure out who getsthe most authority, who gets to
exercise it over who Like.
That's, that's what theGentiles do, that's what this,
that's what this world does.
Liz (29:50):
Instead.
Ben (29:50):
I came to serve.
If you want to be in a positionof authority and leadership,
you've got to go low and serve,and I feel like that servitarian
mindset takes the argument away.
From which view is right?
Which scriptures do we need toread in more than others?
And just we're here to serve.
We're here to serve each otheryeah, and lay down our lives for
(30:11):
one another, like that's the,that's what Jesus is wanting us
to do.
I feel like that's what workswhen we do in the context of our
marriage.
And just like you talked about.
It really changes our outlook.
Liz (30:22):
That's right.
Ben (30:22):
Even when there's tough times, when we focus on that
serving piece, it really doesunlock something.
Liz (30:27):
Well and it did in my heart .
You know it served, it savedour marriage.
Ben (30:32):
Yeah.
Liz (30:32):
I mean, you know, looking back at that in that time, that
was kind of a scary place to be,and I know that there's others
that probably are listening tothis, maybe have been there or
are there.
Ben (30:42):
Right.
Liz (30:42):
And you know, there is something about laying down your
life for the other.
Ben (30:46):
There is, there really is, yeah, and it's hard to go
through.
It's not easy.
It's not an easy thing, noRight, you know, if it was so
easy, there wouldn't be a lot ofthis conversation about you
know, which way is right.
It would just become naturalbecause we're just so easy to
serve.
But it takes a lot of hard workand you're not hard selfish.
Liz (31:10):
Yeah.
Ben (31:11):
Not amazing Kind of born that way I know I am.
Liz (31:15):
This coffee is not hot enough.
Ben (31:17):
Go back and make me some more.
Liz (31:18):
Go back in there and make me more coffee.
Yeah, although I will say I doenjoy when you make me my cup of
coffee in the morning.
You, you guys, took a littlebit of training 20 years.
Well, I mean to get it justright With the right amount of
cream, the right color.
Now, keep in mind, I'm marriedto an artist.
So it's, all about the color,like he figured out the shade.
Ben (31:40):
Maybe I should get like a latte machine and do like the
little you know, the leaf petalsand the milk.
Oh yeah, you know what I'msaying you?
Liz (31:48):
need to be doing that.
Ben (31:50):
I would like for you to serve me like that.
I feel like this just gotreally expensive.
Liz (31:54):
You're just kidding.
And now, too late too late, toolate.
So there's going to be a studyguide.
Ben (32:04):
There is.
Yeah, we'll put a little linkand it'll go through like a lot
of the verses that typically theegalitarian viewpoint come from
, and then also thecomplementarian.
Yeah, and you know we do like adeep dive and we just go through
them and we talk about whatmeans for each context and stuff
, and then kind of where we netout, just where we have netted
out personally and with thisservitarian mindset.
So if you guys are interestedin that, just take a look at the
(32:26):
show notes and there'll be away to get that information.
Liz (32:31):
And we just want to say happy Valentine's Day.
Ben (32:33):
Yeah, happy Valentine's Day Happy.
Liz (32:34):
Valentine's Day.
We are so happy and we lovelove and we're all about love.
Ben (32:40):
That's right, even in the form of passing gas.
Liz (32:43):
Okay, so we're going to end on that.
Note, now we're done.
I was going to be alllovey-dovey, but we're over.
So note, now we're done.
I was going to be all loveydovey, but we're over.
So thank you for being a partof our one blessed mess today.
It literally has been a blessedmess, our one BM for real.
But don't forget to subscribe,share like heart, however you're
listening to this, and passthis along to somebody that you
(33:04):
think would be encouraged.
Of course, we are talking aboutValentine's day, but, truly,
like, every day should beValentine's Day.
It doesn't have to be just oneday.
We feel like this topic and thesubject that we're talking
about is good for a lot ofpeople to hear and maybe to
bring clarity.
Definitely, check out thatstudy guide below, but follow us
on Instagram.
We do have a Instagram page.
(33:26):
We have a Facebook page, sofollow us there.
But just remember, until nexttime, embrace your beautiful
mess, because if our mess can beblessed, then we know, so can
yours.
Yes, it can have a great, greatday.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
Ridiculous History
History is beautiful, brutal and, often, ridiculous. Join Ben Bowlin and Noel Brown as they dive into some of the weirdest stories from across the span of human civilization in Ridiculous History, a podcast by iHeartRadio.