July 2, 2025 • 34 mins
The Persistent Legacy of White Women's Role in Segregation and Resistance
In this episode, hosts Mandy Griffin and Katy Swalwell initiate a conversation on their new book focus, 'Mothers of Massive Resistance' by Elizabeth Gillespie McRae, which explores the pivotal role of white women in maintaining white supremacy. They highlight the author's background, the central themes of the book, and how it reveals the active and intentional efforts by white women in various societal arenas such as social welfare, public education, and popular culture. The hosts reflect on the relevance of these historical insights to current events and stress the importance of local-level activism in combating entrenched systems of oppression.
00:00 Welcome and Introduction
00:31 Personal Struggles and Small Wins
02:31 Travel and Current Events
04:03 Generational Reflections
04:38 Podcast Purpose and New Book Introduction
06:04 Listener Engagement and Community Building
10:12 Author Background and Book Details
13:52 Introduction to Segregation's Constant Gardener
14:24 The Plant Metaphor of White Supremacy
15:42 Four Areas of Focus in the Book
17:10 White Women's Role in Segregation
19:54 The Threat of White Apathy
23:44 Historical Parallels to Modern Politics
32:54 The Importance of Local Level Actions
34:01 Conclusion and Next Steps
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hi, this is Mandy Griffin.
(00:01):
And I'm Katie Swalwell, andwelcome to our Dirty Laundry,
stories of white ladies making amess of things and how we need
to clean up our act.
Mandy (00:14):
Hi.
We are back.
katy (00:18):
I am so beyond proud of us that
Mandy (00:21):
Look,
katy (00:22):
recording on a weekly basis now, and that has not
happened for so long.
It's
Mandy (00:26):
I know.
katy (00:26):
The lowest bar maybe we could set for ourselves, but I
need a win today.
Everything has been going wrong.
It's been like one of those dayswhere the kind of.
Normal, catastrophes of justliving, especially parenting
with two kids is just unfolding.
But because.
Of my hormones right now, I'mjust absolutely in despair about
Mandy (00:52):
Yeah.
katy (00:52):
just paralyzed with depression, about the most basic
things.
So for instance, was like, youknow what I'm gonna do?
The morning was hard.
I'm in such a funk, I'm gonnatreat myself to this
gluten-free, dairy-free gelato.
I found.
Mandy (01:08):
What a treat.
katy (01:10):
Oh my God.
It's like a
Mandy (01:11):
Sounds great.
katy (01:12):
Caramel.
No, it
Mandy (01:14):
Okay?
katy (01:14):
amazing.
Legitimately really good.
Who doesn't want a carameltoffee?
Like it just, and that's hard to
Mandy (01:20):
Mm-hmm.
katy (01:20):
vegan.
So I
Mandy (01:21):
Yeah.
katy (01:21):
this is gonna work for me.
I bought two.
Pints actually, because itlooked so good.
And so I was like, this is gonnabe what turns my day around.
And I went to open the jar,could not get it open, like to
save my life.
So I literally was like, ah,knock it into the sink.
Good thing I have a second oneand go to get the second one
(01:42):
out.
Can't get that lid open either.
And I almost sat on the kitchenfloor and cried.
had to pull it together like I'ma grown woman.
This is not an actual problem.
This is when you know,
Mandy (01:53):
No, it's like perimenopause gives you the
resilience of a toddler.
katy (01:58):
Exactly.
Mandy (01:58):
nothing.
I can't.
katy (02:01):
I have so much empathy for my five-year-old right now.
I'm feeling him.
I get it.
But I did, uh, end up like.
I honestly, it, it's funny youmentioned the resilience of a
toddler because I channeled anArthur episode in which he deals
with his anger in a healthy way.
I calmed down and waited alittle bit because I thought
maybe if it warms up, the lidwill pop open.
(02:23):
And sure enough it did.
And then I did have some of itand it was delicious and it did
kind of help turn my day around.
And now
Mandy (02:29):
Okay.
katy (02:30):
and this is the highlight of my day
Mandy (02:31):
good.
Well, I was just saying thatI've been traveling all day and
got back and I have nothing tocomplain about
katy (02:41):
No, it's
Mandy (02:41):
other,
katy (02:42):
That's
Mandy (02:42):
other than flying.
But you know, everything wentwell and I'm always nervous that
it won't.
So got through and
katy (02:49):
I
Mandy (02:49):
everything is good.
katy (02:50):
about it.
Mandy (02:51):
Yeah.
katy (02:52):
nope.
Nope.
It's all, it's all good.
And I was listening to, duringmy chores this morning, a
podcast that was talking aboutthe primaries in the New York
mayoral race, and I'm super
Mandy (03:03):
Yes.
katy (03:04):
excited about Zoran Momani and just
Mandy (03:07):
Mm-hmm.
katy (03:07):
about him and his wife and I.
It's like this one little speckof hope, I think, in the news
cycle.
So I was excited about that.
Mandy (03:16):
Yeah, we'll see what comes out.
I mean, I expect all of thebillionaires to try anything
they can to keep him fromwinning the actual race, but I'm
not sure if New York will stillshow up, we'll see what happens.
It's amazing.
katy (03:33):
Isn't that wild?
His
Mandy (03:35):
Yeah.
katy (03:35):
like 20, 28, something like in her late twenties, and I
was like, oh my God, in my latetwenties, that is not a stage I
was equipped to be on
Mandy (03:44):
Yeah, no.
katy (03:45):
No way.
So just so much appreciationfor.
The generation below us
Mandy (03:51):
Mm-hmm.
katy (03:52):
I think the people who are really involved in politics, who
are that age, are tremendouslyinspiring.
Mandy (03:58):
As long as
katy (03:59):
there's good news.
Mandy (04:00):
we don't ruin it.
So we'll see.
We'll see what happens.
katy (04:03):
I know we're not the boomers.
Like what,
Mandy (04:05):
No.
katy (04:06):
we, do we have a name?
Mandy (04:07):
We're like on the cusp.
I think we're technically stillGen X, aren't we?
But like right on the cusp.
katy (04:15):
Gen X should get blamed for more than we are.
Like we actually maybe should belumped in with the boomers at
this, you know?
Mandy (04:25):
I don't know what the boomers, maybe like the people
who are.
More solidly in Gen X than us.
I think
katy (04:32):
Hmm.
Mandy (04:33):
just get a pass.
katy (04:34):
Well, you know how I feel
Mandy (04:36):
We're,
katy (04:36):
that.
No one should get a pass,
Mandy (04:38):
uh,
katy (04:38):
white women, which is what our whole podcast is about.
Mandy (04:41):
yes,
katy (04:41):
it, I
Mandy (04:42):
no passes.
katy (04:42):
I mean, no, maybe someone's joining us for the
first time on this episode, butwe are lifelong friends.
We are both white womenourselves, and we are dedicated
to not giving.
Us a pass
Mandy (04:55):
Yes.
katy (04:56):
the book we are starting today.
I am so excited just from whatwe've read thus far about it.
The historian is Elizabeth,McRay.
Am I saying that right?
Mandy (05:06):
I think so.
katy (05:07):
hope so.
Mandy (05:08):
Mm-hmm.
katy (05:08):
who in, even in our introduction, just explaining.
Why she wrote this book, mothersof Massive Resistance, and
trying to really challenge themyths about white women or the
way that history, thathistorians have given them a
pass or they've kind of slippedthrough the cracks.
Um, that it just, it made somuch sense to me given
(05:31):
everything we've ever read orlearned on this podcast.
And I'm so excited to dive intothis
Mandy (05:36):
Yes.
Yeah, and we have done booksbefore, like we were saying in
last week's episode.
We like to go through these.
It gives us some accountability.
It gives us a structure.
it's a lot of interestinghistory to delve into, and we
get to take advantage of theseamazing historians that have
done all of this really hardwork because
katy (05:56):
Yeah.
Mandy (05:56):
it's not well documented.
It's not something that's likethe story that's generally gets
told.
So it is a lot of, deep divesinto this.
we did have someone send in a,Message on our podcast website,
and she just wanted some moreinformation.
for anyone who has not listenedto our previous, book reading,
(06:18):
delving into, it's nottechnically a book club.
We discuss it with each other.
We hope to get, ElizabethGillespie McCray on so that we
can discuss it with her, but weinvite everyone.
to get the book, get thephysical book, get it on
Audible, whatever way you can,take it in and read along with
your thoughts definitely send usmessages if you have, any
(06:42):
thoughts about it or things thatyou think we should do.
a woman named Marine fromRedding, Pennsylvania sent a
message and said.
I'm a teacher and I found yourpodcast through readings and
trainings with Paul Gorski inwhich Katie's work was
highlighted.
katy (06:58):
that's
Mandy (06:59):
from Mark, Katie, and just wondering how it was going
to work.
So we are going to try to doweekly episodes that will be
posted, but don't worry if youcan't keep up or we can't keep
up, they will just show up.
katy (07:14):
They will pop up.
We will get through.
I do know that the last fewtimes that we've done books that
there have been listeners who'vetaken it upon themselves to
organize a little book club intheir community and find Other
friends, either people wholisten to the podcast or just
other people who might beinterested in this book.
They don't have to listen tothis.
That's okay.
but then they created their ownlittle book club community,
(07:37):
which I think is a great idea.
I love, inviting people to sendin questions for us or, things
about the book that piqued theirinterest or that they would want
to hear us talk about,especially if we're able to get.
the author on or othersconnected with this research,
then we can always ask thosequestions of our guests too.
yes, I love the idea ofcommunity around this it is, in
(07:58):
my opinion, one of the reasons Ilove doing this podcast with
you.
I would probably nerd out onthis history just on my own, but
it is so much more fun to do itwith somebody and have at least
one other person to talk toabout what you're reading and
what it's making you think aboutwhat it's making you question
and wonder.
So, find a gaggle.
There should be a name for, agroup.
You know, what would we be ahaggle?
Mandy (08:19):
Yeah, I'm trying to think of the anti Karens or something.
katy (08:24):
I was laughing the other day thinking about, you know,
I've told you before about ourfamily friend, who's a white man
in his sixties,
Mandy (08:31):
Oh yeah.
katy (08:31):
the last demographic I would ever think would enjoy
this podcast.
And he loves it so much and isalways on my case about when
we're gonna record again.
And his name's Kevin, so maybewe can call them the Kevins.
Mandy (08:42):
There you go.
katy (08:44):
or like a coven, but it's a coven and your
Mandy (08:48):
Yes.
katy (08:49):
you know?
Mandy (08:50):
Invite the men along too.
'cause we also have our dearother family friend Steve who,
katy (08:55):
Yes,
Mandy (08:56):
Karen says is our number one fan.
katy (08:59):
maybe our demographic of listeners is actually
post-retirement white men
Mandy (09:04):
Great.
katy (09:05):
and
Mandy (09:05):
Hi Steve.
We love you.
katy (09:09):
It's so weird, but great.
Mandy (09:11):
Love it.
katy (09:12):
that they're in the world.
yes.
And so yeah, let us know if youare.
a group together, send us anote.
We'd love to hear from people.
Mandy (09:20):
Yes.
katy (09:20):
for reaching out.
Mandy (09:22):
Yeah, and you can, find us on the podcast website, which
should be connected on whateverplatform you're using.
We also have an Instagram, whichwe have not updated in eons, but
I did on the last episode we putup.
So if you are on Instagram, youcan look up our Dirty Laundry
podcast and follow us there.
You can send us messages onthere.
(09:42):
I will try to remember to checkit and.
If we don't respond back, justkeep pounding us.
It's the hormones, it's thelife, it's everything.
we will see it eventually.
So, yeah.
katy (09:58):
I
Mandy (09:58):
Okay.
katy (09:58):
that we are, an exceptionally high quality, well
researched podcast that is notsponsored and not our full-time
job.
So you'll get it when you getit, is
Mandy (10:08):
Yep.
I.
katy (10:09):
the content.
So, let's dive in.
Mandy (10:12):
Okay.
katy (10:12):
I was trying to do a little background on the author.
I don't know if
Mandy (10:16):
Oh good.
No, go ahead.
Take it away.
katy (10:18):
at all.
But in the introduction, um,Elizabeth Gillespie McRay says
that she grew up in themountains of southwest Virginia,
which I'm sure is superbeautiful.
to live and work in DC forseveral years, and part of the
country is just really, reallygorgeous and grew up on a family
farm.
And described some of her familyand, grandparents they were,
(10:41):
that it sounds like.
people who just were reallycurious that she says they love
to read, they love to talkpolitics, they're hard workers,
and so it sounds like she justgrew up in a family that was
like questioning and curious andthen mentions that she is a
mother to two daughters, Katieand Caroline.
Katie is spelled correctly witha Y so that was nice for me to
(11:04):
see.
Mandy (11:04):
Mm-hmm.
katy (11:05):
and then I don't know too much more other than she.
Went to the University ofGeorgia for her PhD.
She has a couple of differentmaster's degrees and a PhD in
history from the University ofGeorgia I was looking at her
work.
I'm a former professor myselfand a trained academic, trained
scholar, so I jump on GoogleScholar, I dunno how I could
ever do any of my work withoutthat website.
Mandy (11:27):
Mm.
katy (11:28):
grateful for it just to see other things she'd written
about.
And back in the nineties itlooks like this is when she was
a student, in the late ninetiesand was writing about one of her
early papers was about Georgiawomen and the anti suffrage
campaign from 1914 to
Mandy (11:44):
Oh,
katy (11:45):
which was how this podcast started.
Mandy (11:47):
yep.
katy (11:47):
our earliest episodes were about the anti suffragists.
Mandy (11:50):
Mm-hmm.
katy (11:51):
thought that was a cool full circle
Mandy (11:52):
Mm-hmm.
katy (11:53):
Um, but this book, um.
Mothers of massive resistance,white women and the politics of
White Supremacy was published in2018 and won the Frederick
Jackson Turner Award, which isthe kind of national big book
award from the organization ofAmerican historians.
it's won a bunch of outstandingbook awards.
(12:13):
It's, it, yeah, I think it's,it's been highly regarded among
historians, she is an associateprofessor at.
Western Carolina University andworks with the Appalachian Oral
History Project, sounds like,Someone who's dedicated her
career, to what we've dedicatedour hobby to.
Mandy (12:34):
Right.
katy (12:34):
dedicated her career to
Mandy (12:37):
Huh?
katy (12:37):
white women's shittiness.
I'm sure she doesn't use thatlanguage, but
Mandy (12:40):
No,
katy (12:41):
maybe
Mandy (12:41):
probably.
katy (12:42):
She does.
We'll have to find out.
Mandy (12:43):
Yeah.
I'd love to hear what she'steaching these days.
Like what actual courses andmaterials she covers.
Teaching at a place like WesternCarolina University may be
interesting.
These, like anywhere in thecountry.
I mean
katy (13:00):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (13:01):
in general, but especially universities in the
south.
I wonder what the politics ofthat university are.
lots of things I'd love to askher and see, Mm-hmm.
katy (13:27):
and just what woke them up, I guess.
What, um, what.
or relationships or, you know,what led them to even asking the
questions that they ask andwanting to learn this
information.
that's always intriguing to metoo.
Mandy (13:46):
Yeah.
Well, hopefully we can get heron, we should send her an email
soon.
katy (13:50):
I
Mandy (13:51):
We should plan it.
katy (13:52):
we'll, for sure.
well, let's just talk about theintroduction today, if that's
okay.
It's, titled Segregation'sConstant Gardener,
Mandy (14:00):
Mm-hmm.
katy (14:01):
that I was raving about this plant book that I'm
obsessed
Mandy (14:04):
Yeah.
katy (14:04):
I did tell I was running errands, over the weekend and I
went to a local landscapesupply.
to get gravel that I needed toreplace.
then I went to a plant storewith house plants and both of
the people who helped me there,I ended up chatting with them
about this book and they bothordered it while we were
talking.
Mandy (14:23):
Oh my gosh.
katy (14:24):
I.
The evangelist for this book,the Light Eaters.
I loved that the introductionended with this line white women
were and remained segregation's,constant gardeners this plant
metaphor of white supremacybeing Like noxious weeds tended
to by generations of women whoare teaching their daughters to
(14:48):
tend to this garden.
And it has a very, very deeproot system,
Mandy (14:53):
Yeah.
katy (14:53):
like the work she's gonna reveal.
Mandy (14:56):
I also like that that analogy does make it a very
active process.
I.
Like, it's not just thisovergrowth or unattended thing,
it's very purposeful.
there is a lot of hard work thatactually goes into it, by
individuals and communities.
I think that's one of the mainunderlying themes of this book
(15:19):
bringing that to light, thatthis did not happen
unintentionally.
katy (15:25):
no, it is super intentional and then it's also.
micro level when,
Mandy (15:32):
Mm-hmm.
katy (15:33):
when you're able to look at white women.
the ways and the places wherethey are very intentionally
tending to this are soinsidious.
there was one spot, I'm tryingto find the page where she's
listing, that there's reallygonna be four areas that the
book will take a look at acrossfour different women.
Mandy (15:52):
Mm-hmm.
katy (15:53):
And one of those areas is social welfare policy
implemented at a local level.
The second is public education.
The third is electoral politics,where I think have tended to
focus on, but they have stilloverlooked the role of women in
that sphere.
the fourth domain is popularculture.
And so thinking about socialwelfare policy, public ed, and
(16:14):
popular culture, those have notreally been looked at that
closely by.
A lot of historians.
she mentions the way thatthey're tending to this, even
in, the nooks and crannies ofpublic and private life.
so it's congressional campaigns,but it's also PTA meetings.
It's State and national economicpolicy, but it's also household
(16:35):
budget decisions textbookdebates and daycare decisions,
Mandy (16:39):
registrar's offices, like
katy (16:41):
yes.
Mandy (16:42):
wedding certificates, birth certificates, the
categorization or like how theycategorized race.
All of that was very.
Hands-on with the women who werein those roles and in those
fields were mostly white women,and so they were completely
integral into taking thatlegislation and enacting it in
(17:03):
people's lives and making surethat it actually got carried out
in the everyday activities thatpeople were partaking in.
katy (17:10):
this line, where she says, white women were the mass in
massive resistance.
Mandy (17:15):
Mm-hmm.
katy (17:16):
I think setting up this kind of traditional narrative
that a lot of people have aboutthe civil rights movement, you
know, like starting in the 1950sand then ended in the 1960s with
all these victories, like, yay.
And it's, I think that supersimplistic and not an accurate
narrative has been moreeffectively challenged in the
(17:36):
last, you know, couple ofdecades.
even when.
Historians have done a betterjob at talking about women.
they've focused on the whitewomen who were part of the Civil
Rights movement and not thewhite women who were part of the
resistance
Mandy (17:51):
Hmm.
Hmm.
katy (17:52):
when historians have focused on the segregationists,
it's very rare that women arenamed as segregationists, that's
kind of a term that hashistorically been applied to.
men in formal leadership rolesand trying to push on that to
say is a term that absolutelyincludes women and that we
(18:16):
shouldn't conflatesegregationists with
conservatives.
Mandy (18:20):
Mm-hmm.
katy (18:21):
thought was super interesting in the intro.
Do you remember,
Mandy (18:23):
I do remember where she talked about that, that it just
let the segregationist componentof it be underground,
katy (18:32):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (18:34):
because it gave those women a pass, in a way to make
them not seem like they werepart, that they were just, oh,
part of this conservativemovement.
put a prettier label on it,almost.
Mm-hmm.
katy (19:03):
I think being able to understand people who were
committed to segregation cutacross ideological party lines,
that it wasn't just theconservative at the time
would've been the Democratic
Mandy (19:16):
Yeah,
katy (19:16):
was the more conservative party.
Mandy (19:18):
we get into the first chapters and see how this is
interwoven at the exact sametimeframe as the eugenics
movement that we spent a seasonon and how all of these same
players are like intermingling.
in this eugenic and thesegregation and all of these
race politics and yeah, they allknew each other.
(19:40):
They all connected, whether itwas from the south to New York
to California, these, differentinstitutions were working
together to uphold this whitesegregationist attitude
throughout the country,
katy (19:54):
I thought there were a couple things I wanted to ask
you about The first was on page11, she talks about how the most
significant threat to the systemof segregation white women
believed was the apathy of theirwhite neighbors
Mandy (20:08):
Mm-hmm.
katy (20:08):
to realize the work needed to sustain it.
Mandy (20:12):
Yeah, it's really funny that you say that,'cause I have
my finger on that paragraph Theexact same thing that white
apathy was the most importantthreat to the system of racial
segregation.
I mean, which I think is likeanything dies in apathy And so
we talked about when we werestarting to introduce this in
(20:33):
our episode last week, justabout how angry we are at
katy (20:38):
Yeah.
Mandy (20:38):
white women on the other side for being so good at what
they do because.
They are so good at the notletting things go part of it.
Like, it's just like you willnot be allowed to let this not
matter to you.
Kind of an attitude that theyhave.
And they are, you know, lots ofreasons we talked about for why
(21:01):
that happens, better on thatside.
But yeah, I mean, I think apathyis the number one problem we
face in organizing as well.
katy (21:11):
I, I did.
later on in the introduction shetalks about how there clearly
are other threats that,especially after World War she
names a faltering Democraticparty and Invasive United
Nations and interventionistSupreme Court, a widespread
mobilization of blackSoutherners like there were
other.
Threats identified by thesewhite women.
But the original threat,surprised me because if I had to
(21:35):
guess, I wouldn't have guessedthat their one target for.
Maintaining white supremacywould've been other white people
who cared less about it Andmaybe that just reveals how
naive I still am about
Mandy (21:51):
Mm-hmm.
katy (21:51):
how this all works.
then I set the book down and Iwas really thinking about like,
why does that surprise me thatmuch?
And then I remembered this quotefrom.
Martin Luther King's letter froma Birmingham jail, and I am sure
you will remember this quotetoo.
Mandy (22:05):
Mm-hmm.
katy (22:06):
like a pretty famous passage, but he's writing this
letter and he says, I mustconfess that over the past few
years I have been gravelydisappointed with the white
moderate.
I have almost reached theregrettable conclusion that the
Negroes great stumbling blockand his stride toward freedom is
not the white citizens counseloror the Ku Klux k cleaner, but
the white.
Moderate, who is more devoted toorder than to justice, who
(22:27):
prefers a negative peace, whichis the absence of tension to a
positive peace, which is thepresence of justice who
constantly says, I agree withyou on the goal you seek, that I
cannot agree with your methodsof direct action.
Who paternalistic believes hecan set the timetable for
another man's freedom, who livesby a mythical concept of time
and who constantly advises thene to wait freight.
More convenient season.
(22:49):
Shallow understanding frompeople of goodwill is more
frustrating than absolutemisunderstanding from people of
ill will.
Lukewarm acceptance is much morebewildering than outright
rejection, and I just sat withthat, like, maybe I'm not
interpreting these sources as Ishould, but it struck me that.
King is saying the same, likethe inverse of what Mray is
(23:13):
pointing out that these whitewomen were saying which was the
greatest threat to their goalwas this mass of white people,
white moderates,
Mandy (23:27):
Mm-hmm.
katy (23:28):
like King is saying, they are the people who are actually
getting in the way more thananything else, Maybe these women
are saying like they'reinterfering with our ability to
further entrench whitesupremacy, like they're this
weird group in the middle.
Mandy (23:42):
Yeah.
katy (23:42):
I on?
Mandy (23:43):
Yeah.
the thing that conjuress for mein modern politics are all of
the people who voted for Trump,but are like, oh, but I didn't
mean for this.
To happen, or I didn't mean forthis person that I know to be
affected by this.
And I think it's the sameattitude.
(24:05):
It's just this moderate, like goalong with things
katy (24:09):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (24:10):
understand the implications of them, and then
somehow that gives you a pass onthings.
It's probably like the
katy (24:19):
It's almost like, the term woke that I
Mandy (24:21):
mm-hmm.
katy (24:22):
term for lots of
Mandy (24:23):
I love it.
katy (24:24):
maligned term.
it's almost like the people whoare awake are these.
heinous white women who aretending their garden.
They know what's up, they arewell aware of how all this
works, and they are devotingdeliberate energy to maintaining
it.
And then the folks who are awakesee that as the evil that it is,
Mandy (24:43):
Mm-hmm.
katy (24:44):
like eugenics logic and you know, like all of the things
that we critique here.
And then it's this mass in themiddle that.
Just aren't I don't mean to callthe white women who were leading
mass resistance as woke, andthey're not woke in the same
Mandy (25:04):
No,
katy (25:04):
I'm
Mandy (25:04):
I know what you mean.
katy (25:05):
at least they what's happening and like, I don't
think the women are going tomeet in this book.
they're actively pulling on allthese levers, so they
Mandy (25:18):
Mm-hmm.
katy (25:18):
levers exist, they're trying to do something about it
instead of these other women whomight be their neighbors who are
like, oh no, that's not how theworld works.
It's fair, and you just workhard and get ahead
Mandy (25:28):
Mm-hmm.
katy (25:29):
is, like
Mandy (25:30):
Mm-hmm.
katy (25:31):
or
Mandy (25:32):
Mm-hmm.
katy (25:32):
it's like their naivete Fuels the continuation of
Mandy (25:39):
Yep.
katy (25:40):
systems, even though it sounds like from what we're
gonna learn about these women,that they were annoyed that they
weren't getting more fuel fromthose people
Mandy (25:47):
Yeah.
katy (25:47):
in my mind, they're getting plenty from them.
Like those people's apathy onlyreally benefits, at the end of
the day.
I think the scorecard looksbetter for the white
supremacists when people areapathetic than for the other
side.
Mandy (26:02):
Well, because I don't think it, it doesn't take much
to lead apathetic people in thedirection that these women
wanted to take them,
katy (26:12):
supremacy.
Mandy (26:13):
Yeah.
katy (26:14):
the what's current.
So it's one thing to maintainthat system it's another to.
Fundamentally dismantle thatsystem and build something new.
Yep.
much easier to do that than itis to people that something new
is different.
So I guess in some ways I wasjust so annoyed, like them
(26:34):
seeing that as their biggestthreat just bothered me.
Like, I don't think they'rewrong.
It was just like, God damn, youcan't have everything, you know?
Mandy (26:44):
Yeah, I totally felt the same way, but I guess we'll see
how apathetic people turned outto be.
'cause it seems like theydidn't.
katy (26:53):
so apathetic because the book opens by explaining one of
the women.
We're gonna learn more aboutMrs.
Hug Bell, and actually
Mandy (26:59):
Mm-hmm.
katy (27:00):
of you and your petty detective, miss, one of the
questions I would love to askthe author of this book is.
If she's had relatives of thesewomen come for her, for holding
up their legacies as examples ofwhite supremacy and
segregationism.
we talked about this when wewere talking about voting rights
(27:21):
I'm very clear about my positionon Kerry Chapman cat and.
Her support of white supremacy,which is well documented and
many other white suffrageleaders using, people's bigotry
as a way to.
Get them to support the 19thAmendment.
You know, like if you let whitewomen vote, then we will help
you maintain these systems ofoppression.
(27:42):
being that naked and explicitabout that bargain.
And I've had interactions withher great, great nephew and a
superfan of hers where they justlike.
Cannot stand that someone withany kind of platform would
share, would say those thingsabout this woman that they
revere so much.
Mandy (28:01):
Mm-hmm.
katy (28:02):
just curious if she's had, any family members come for her
in any kind of way for namingtheir grandma or whoever
Mandy (28:11):
As a white supremacist.
Yeah.
yeah.
I always find that wholereaction very fascinating.
maybe that's because I grew up.
With a mother who refused totake on that, you know, the
platitudes of, you know, don'tspeak ill of the dead.
It's like, well, who cares ifthey're dead or not?
If they were an asshole, they'restill an asshole.
(28:34):
Like, why are
katy (28:34):
no problem.
Mandy (28:36):
No.
We're like, Nope, we're gonnacall it out the way it was.
You may be dead, but we rememberwhat you were like when you were
alive.
I also think it just doesn'thelp move us along if we're not
willing to.
Accept and point out andcriticize
katy (28:52):
Yep.
Mandy (28:53):
various parts of our history, you know,
katy (28:56):
I.
Mandy (28:57):
yeah.
katy (28:57):
your nana may have loved you and made delicious
applesauce
Mandy (29:02):
Yeah.
katy (29:03):
it's possible to love people who do awful things.
Mandy (29:06):
Yep.
katy (29:06):
be more complex than like, you're in, you're out.
You know, we can live morecomplicated lives than that, but
I always gonna say was, um, Mrs.
Bell, was trying to push back onthe Brown V Board decision to
desegregate and.
Within a couple months hadgotten 5,000 signatures, which
was
Mandy (29:24):
Mm-hmm.
katy (29:25):
one third of her county's white population.
So it's hard for me to say thattheir fears that not enough
white people supported them werethat well founded.
Mandy (29:33):
Yeah.
katy (29:34):
of
Mandy (29:34):
Yeah.
They seemed to do pretty wellwhen it came to,
katy (29:38):
the last thing I wanted to ask you is where in this
introduction, you felt like youwere reading about history, but
you felt like it could have beena description of current events.
Mandy (29:46):
Yeah.
I think through most of it, likethat's the problem.
I think that, that, that.
The fact that you just realizethat this has never gone away.
You know, it's never gone away.
And it's because we have not,partially because we have not
(30:07):
named it and because we haven'treally called it for what it is,
it has been allowed to continueon.
we discussed that a little bitlast week too.
these women's progeny are stillout there and they're still
using a lot of the same tacticsand these ideas are in no way
katy (30:27):
Mm.
Mandy (30:28):
I think I would've been more, I wouldn't have thought
that, 12 years ago
katy (30:34):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (30:34):
15, 20 years ago, I would've been more shocked by
all of this.
But I feel like now I'm justlike, oh yeah, I see
katy (30:42):
here's,
Mandy (30:43):
what happened.
katy (30:44):
I love writing in books that I own.
I love annotating them.
Mandy (30:48):
Mm-hmm.
katy (30:48):
on page 16, she talks about, after World War ii, how,
what conservative or women werecrusading against many supported
and anemic federal budgetrestricted voting rights.
State, not federal control ofpolitical and civil rights,
sacrosanct property rights andstates' rights in terms of
public education.
The campaign against theinfluence of John Dewey's
progressive pedagogy, rejectedmulticulturalism in the
(31:09):
classroom opposed the creationof a Federal Department of
Education and remained wed to acurriculum centered on American
exceptionalism.
Mandy (31:16):
Yep.
katy (31:17):
that public schools were an extension of their homes and
should reflect their valuesexclusively upholding parental
authority and patriotism.
Mandy (31:23):
I wrote in the margins of that exact same thing.
There are very deep roots of theanti federal education system in
this country.
if that's not something thatcouldn't be right out of project
2025, I don't know,
katy (31:37):
If any, I mean, I'm already fired up enough, but
just reading that it was like,these bitches aren't gonna win.
Like deepest part of me is justlike, they can't win this, this
agenda, this set of goals.
Like this can't be whatprevails, you know,
Mandy (31:56):
I mean, I hope I'm so like downtrodden.
katy (32:02):
I'm not
Mandy (32:02):
I feel like they are winning.
katy (32:04):
No, it is.
I think what I'm saying is notthat I believe it won't prevail,
but
Mandy (32:10):
Yep.
katy (32:11):
I'm even more fortified that with every breath I take,
this has to be the of our life'swork is
Mandy (32:19):
Yeah.
katy (32:20):
know that this is going on pay attention,
Mandy (32:23):
Pay attention.
katy (32:25):
and
Mandy (32:25):
Mm-hmm.
katy (32:26):
Garden, our own garden, you know,
Mandy (32:28):
Yep.
katy (32:28):
do whatever we can to help people understand that the fruit
they're eating from that gardenis giving.
Mandy (32:35):
Yeah.
katy (32:36):
that it is not nutritious, it is not healthy.
And if they can make it, tastegood for you.
It is, it's poison.
Mandy (32:44):
I think a lot of us are looking for ways like, what can
I actually do?
Because on a national level itseems impossible to do anything.
part of what I had highlightedon page 18, says, their
experience told them that whitesupremacist politics acted on a
local level in school boarddecisions in teacher trainings,
(33:05):
in bureaucratic categorizations.
In public welfare policies andin historical narratives would
prove more difficult to uprootand eradicate than national or
even state level policies.
And I think that's still true.
we need to know.
What is happening at these locallevels of the school Board of
(33:28):
Welfare policies of things thatare going on, at our state and
local levels that are reallyhard to get out and do actually
have impact on our lives, on ourchildren's lives.
And we have to fight againstthem there because that's where
they take root and that's wherethey remain.
katy (33:47):
there's actually hope in that knowledge that if these
women could use those tools forthat purpose, then we can use
them for ours.
Mandy (33:58):
Yep.
katy (33:59):
I gotta
Mandy (33:59):
Yep.
katy (34:00):
with that.
Mandy (34:00):
Okay.
katy (34:01):
to talk to you today
Mandy (34:02):
Okay.
katy (34:02):
glad people
Mandy (34:03):
time
katy (34:04):
reading
Mandy (34:04):
yeah, go move on to chapter one.
read the intro, read chapterone.
We will talk about it next week.
katy (34:11):
Sounds great.
All right.
Mandy (34:12):
Okay, bye.
katy (34:14):
Bye.
Hi, this is Mandy Griffin.
(00:01):
And I'm Katie Swalwell, andwelcome to our Dirty Laundry,
stories of white ladies making amess of things and how we need
to clean up our act.
Mandy (00:14):
Hi.
We are back.
katy (00:18):
I am so beyond proud of us that
Mandy (00:21):
Look,
katy (00:22):
recording on a weekly basis now, and that has not
happened for so long.
It's
Mandy (00:26):
I know.
katy (00:26):
The lowest bar maybe we could set for ourselves, but I
need a win today.
Everything has been going wrong.
It's been like one of those dayswhere the kind of.
Normal, catastrophes of justliving, especially parenting
with two kids is just unfolding.
But because.
Of my hormones right now, I'mjust absolutely in despair about
Mandy (00:52):
Yeah.
katy (00:52):
just paralyzed with depression, about the most basic
things.
So for instance, was like, youknow what I'm gonna do?
The morning was hard.
I'm in such a funk, I'm gonnatreat myself to this
gluten-free, dairy-free gelato.
I found.
Mandy (01:08):
What a treat.
katy (01:10):
Oh my God.
It's like a
Mandy (01:11):
Sounds great.
katy (01:12):
Caramel.
No, it
Mandy (01:14):
Okay?
katy (01:14):
amazing.
Legitimately really good.
Who doesn't want a carameltoffee?
Like it just, and that's hard to
Mandy (01:20):
Mm-hmm.
katy (01:20):
vegan.
So I
Mandy (01:21):
Yeah.
katy (01:21):
this is gonna work for me.
I bought two.
Pints actually, because itlooked so good.
And so I was like, this is gonnabe what turns my day around.
And I went to open the jar,could not get it open, like to
save my life.
So I literally was like, ah,knock it into the sink.
Good thing I have a second oneand go to get the second one
(01:42):
out.
Can't get that lid open either.
And I almost sat on the kitchenfloor and cried.
had to pull it together like I'ma grown woman.
This is not an actual problem.
This is when you know,
Mandy (01:53):
No, it's like perimenopause gives you the
resilience of a toddler.
katy (01:58):
Exactly.
Mandy (01:58):
nothing.
I can't.
katy (02:01):
I have so much empathy for my five-year-old right now.
I'm feeling him.
I get it.
But I did, uh, end up like.
I honestly, it, it's funny youmentioned the resilience of a
toddler because I channeled anArthur episode in which he deals
with his anger in a healthy way.
I calmed down and waited alittle bit because I thought
maybe if it warms up, the lidwill pop open.
(02:23):
And sure enough it did.
And then I did have some of itand it was delicious and it did
kind of help turn my day around.
And now
Mandy (02:29):
Okay.
katy (02:30):
and this is the highlight of my day
Mandy (02:31):
good.
Well, I was just saying thatI've been traveling all day and
got back and I have nothing tocomplain about
katy (02:41):
No, it's
Mandy (02:41):
other,
katy (02:42):
That's
Mandy (02:42):
other than flying.
But you know, everything wentwell and I'm always nervous that
it won't.
So got through and
katy (02:49):
I
Mandy (02:49):
everything is good.
katy (02:50):
about it.
Mandy (02:51):
Yeah.
katy (02:52):
nope.
Nope.
It's all, it's all good.
And I was listening to, duringmy chores this morning, a
podcast that was talking aboutthe primaries in the New York
mayoral race, and I'm super
Mandy (03:03):
Yes.
katy (03:04):
excited about Zoran Momani and just
Mandy (03:07):
Mm-hmm.
katy (03:07):
about him and his wife and I.
It's like this one little speckof hope, I think, in the news
cycle.
So I was excited about that.
Mandy (03:16):
Yeah, we'll see what comes out.
I mean, I expect all of thebillionaires to try anything
they can to keep him fromwinning the actual race, but I'm
not sure if New York will stillshow up, we'll see what happens.
It's amazing.
katy (03:33):
Isn't that wild?
His
Mandy (03:35):
Yeah.
katy (03:35):
like 20, 28, something like in her late twenties, and I
was like, oh my God, in my latetwenties, that is not a stage I
was equipped to be on
Mandy (03:44):
Yeah, no.
katy (03:45):
No way.
So just so much appreciationfor.
The generation below us
Mandy (03:51):
Mm-hmm.
katy (03:52):
I think the people who are really involved in politics, who
are that age, are tremendouslyinspiring.
Mandy (03:58):
As long as
katy (03:59):
there's good news.
Mandy (04:00):
we don't ruin it.
So we'll see.
We'll see what happens.
katy (04:03):
I know we're not the boomers.
Like what,
Mandy (04:05):
No.
katy (04:06):
we, do we have a name?
Mandy (04:07):
We're like on the cusp.
I think we're technically stillGen X, aren't we?
But like right on the cusp.
katy (04:15):
Gen X should get blamed for more than we are.
Like we actually maybe should belumped in with the boomers at
this, you know?
Mandy (04:25):
I don't know what the boomers, maybe like the people
who are.
More solidly in Gen X than us.
I think
katy (04:32):
Hmm.
Mandy (04:33):
just get a pass.
katy (04:34):
Well, you know how I feel
Mandy (04:36):
We're,
katy (04:36):
that.
No one should get a pass,
Mandy (04:38):
uh,
katy (04:38):
white women, which is what our whole podcast is about.
Mandy (04:41):
yes,
katy (04:41):
it, I
Mandy (04:42):
no passes.
katy (04:42):
I mean, no, maybe someone's joining us for the
first time on this episode, butwe are lifelong friends.
We are both white womenourselves, and we are dedicated
to not giving.
Us a pass
Mandy (04:55):
Yes.
katy (04:56):
the book we are starting today.
I am so excited just from whatwe've read thus far about it.
The historian is Elizabeth,McRay.
Am I saying that right?
Mandy (05:06):
I think so.
katy (05:07):
hope so.
Mandy (05:08):
Mm-hmm.
katy (05:08):
who in, even in our introduction, just explaining.
Why she wrote this book, mothersof Massive Resistance, and
trying to really challenge themyths about white women or the
way that history, thathistorians have given them a
pass or they've kind of slippedthrough the cracks.
Um, that it just, it made somuch sense to me given
(05:31):
everything we've ever read orlearned on this podcast.
And I'm so excited to dive intothis
Mandy (05:36):
Yes.
Yeah, and we have done booksbefore, like we were saying in
last week's episode.
We like to go through these.
It gives us some accountability.
It gives us a structure.
it's a lot of interestinghistory to delve into, and we
get to take advantage of theseamazing historians that have
done all of this really hardwork because
katy (05:56):
Yeah.
Mandy (05:56):
it's not well documented.
It's not something that's likethe story that's generally gets
told.
So it is a lot of, deep divesinto this.
we did have someone send in a,Message on our podcast website,
and she just wanted some moreinformation.
for anyone who has not listenedto our previous, book reading,
(06:18):
delving into, it's nottechnically a book club.
We discuss it with each other.
We hope to get, ElizabethGillespie McCray on so that we
can discuss it with her, but weinvite everyone.
to get the book, get thephysical book, get it on
Audible, whatever way you can,take it in and read along with
your thoughts definitely send usmessages if you have, any
(06:42):
thoughts about it or things thatyou think we should do.
a woman named Marine fromRedding, Pennsylvania sent a
message and said.
I'm a teacher and I found yourpodcast through readings and
trainings with Paul Gorski inwhich Katie's work was
highlighted.
katy (06:58):
that's
Mandy (06:59):
from Mark, Katie, and just wondering how it was going
to work.
So we are going to try to doweekly episodes that will be
posted, but don't worry if youcan't keep up or we can't keep
up, they will just show up.
katy (07:14):
They will pop up.
We will get through.
I do know that the last fewtimes that we've done books that
there have been listeners who'vetaken it upon themselves to
organize a little book club intheir community and find Other
friends, either people wholisten to the podcast or just
other people who might beinterested in this book.
They don't have to listen tothis.
That's okay.
but then they created their ownlittle book club community,
(07:37):
which I think is a great idea.
I love, inviting people to sendin questions for us or, things
about the book that piqued theirinterest or that they would want
to hear us talk about,especially if we're able to get.
the author on or othersconnected with this research,
then we can always ask thosequestions of our guests too.
yes, I love the idea ofcommunity around this it is, in
(07:58):
my opinion, one of the reasons Ilove doing this podcast with
you.
I would probably nerd out onthis history just on my own, but
it is so much more fun to do itwith somebody and have at least
one other person to talk toabout what you're reading and
what it's making you think aboutwhat it's making you question
and wonder.
So, find a gaggle.
There should be a name for, agroup.
You know, what would we be ahaggle?
Mandy (08:19):
Yeah, I'm trying to think of the anti Karens or something.
katy (08:24):
I was laughing the other day thinking about, you know,
I've told you before about ourfamily friend, who's a white man
in his sixties,
Mandy (08:31):
Oh yeah.
katy (08:31):
the last demographic I would ever think would enjoy
this podcast.
And he loves it so much and isalways on my case about when
we're gonna record again.
And his name's Kevin, so maybewe can call them the Kevins.
Mandy (08:42):
There you go.
katy (08:44):
or like a coven, but it's a coven and your
Mandy (08:48):
Yes.
katy (08:49):
you know?
Mandy (08:50):
Invite the men along too.
'cause we also have our dearother family friend Steve who,
katy (08:55):
Yes,
Mandy (08:56):
Karen says is our number one fan.
katy (08:59):
maybe our demographic of listeners is actually
post-retirement white men
Mandy (09:04):
Great.
katy (09:05):
and
Mandy (09:05):
Hi Steve.
We love you.
katy (09:09):
It's so weird, but great.
Mandy (09:11):
Love it.
katy (09:12):
that they're in the world.
yes.
And so yeah, let us know if youare.
a group together, send us anote.
We'd love to hear from people.
Mandy (09:20):
Yes.
katy (09:20):
for reaching out.
Mandy (09:22):
Yeah, and you can, find us on the podcast website, which
should be connected on whateverplatform you're using.
We also have an Instagram, whichwe have not updated in eons, but
I did on the last episode we putup.
So if you are on Instagram, youcan look up our Dirty Laundry
podcast and follow us there.
You can send us messages onthere.
(09:42):
I will try to remember to checkit and.
If we don't respond back, justkeep pounding us.
It's the hormones, it's thelife, it's everything.
we will see it eventually.
So, yeah.
katy (09:58):
I
Mandy (09:58):
Okay.
katy (09:58):
that we are, an exceptionally high quality, well
researched podcast that is notsponsored and not our full-time
job.
So you'll get it when you getit, is
Mandy (10:08):
Yep.
I.
katy (10:09):
the content.
So, let's dive in.
Mandy (10:12):
Okay.
katy (10:12):
I was trying to do a little background on the author.
I don't know if
Mandy (10:16):
Oh good.
No, go ahead.
Take it away.
katy (10:18):
at all.
But in the introduction, um,Elizabeth Gillespie McRay says
that she grew up in themountains of southwest Virginia,
which I'm sure is superbeautiful.
to live and work in DC forseveral years, and part of the
country is just really, reallygorgeous and grew up on a family
farm.
And described some of her familyand, grandparents they were,
(10:41):
that it sounds like.
people who just were reallycurious that she says they love
to read, they love to talkpolitics, they're hard workers,
and so it sounds like she justgrew up in a family that was
like questioning and curious andthen mentions that she is a
mother to two daughters, Katieand Caroline.
Katie is spelled correctly witha Y so that was nice for me to
(11:04):
see.
Mandy (11:04):
Mm-hmm.
katy (11:05):
and then I don't know too much more other than she.
Went to the University ofGeorgia for her PhD.
She has a couple of differentmaster's degrees and a PhD in
history from the University ofGeorgia I was looking at her
work.
I'm a former professor myselfand a trained academic, trained
scholar, so I jump on GoogleScholar, I dunno how I could
ever do any of my work withoutthat website.
Mandy (11:27):
Mm.
katy (11:28):
grateful for it just to see other things she'd written
about.
And back in the nineties itlooks like this is when she was
a student, in the late ninetiesand was writing about one of her
early papers was about Georgiawomen and the anti suffrage
campaign from 1914 to
Mandy (11:44):
Oh,
katy (11:45):
which was how this podcast started.
Mandy (11:47):
yep.
katy (11:47):
our earliest episodes were about the anti suffragists.
Mandy (11:50):
Mm-hmm.
katy (11:51):
thought that was a cool full circle
Mandy (11:52):
Mm-hmm.
katy (11:53):
Um, but this book, um.
Mothers of massive resistance,white women and the politics of
White Supremacy was published in2018 and won the Frederick
Jackson Turner Award, which isthe kind of national big book
award from the organization ofAmerican historians.
it's won a bunch of outstandingbook awards.
(12:13):
It's, it, yeah, I think it's,it's been highly regarded among
historians, she is an associateprofessor at.
Western Carolina University andworks with the Appalachian Oral
History Project, sounds like,Someone who's dedicated her
career, to what we've dedicatedour hobby to.
Mandy (12:34):
Right.
katy (12:34):
dedicated her career to
Mandy (12:37):
Huh?
katy (12:37):
white women's shittiness.
I'm sure she doesn't use thatlanguage, but
Mandy (12:40):
No,
katy (12:41):
maybe
Mandy (12:41):
probably.
katy (12:42):
She does.
We'll have to find out.
Mandy (12:43):
Yeah.
I'd love to hear what she'steaching these days.
Like what actual courses andmaterials she covers.
Teaching at a place like WesternCarolina University may be
interesting.
These, like anywhere in thecountry.
I mean
katy (13:00):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (13:01):
in general, but especially universities in the
south.
I wonder what the politics ofthat university are.
lots of things I'd love to askher and see, Mm-hmm.
katy (13:27):
and just what woke them up, I guess.
What, um, what.
or relationships or, you know,what led them to even asking the
questions that they ask andwanting to learn this
information.
that's always intriguing to metoo.
Mandy (13:46):
Yeah.
Well, hopefully we can get heron, we should send her an email
soon.
katy (13:50):
I
Mandy (13:51):
We should plan it.
katy (13:52):
we'll, for sure.
well, let's just talk about theintroduction today, if that's
okay.
It's, titled Segregation'sConstant Gardener,
Mandy (14:00):
Mm-hmm.
katy (14:01):
that I was raving about this plant book that I'm
obsessed
Mandy (14:04):
Yeah.
katy (14:04):
I did tell I was running errands, over the weekend and I
went to a local landscapesupply.
to get gravel that I needed toreplace.
then I went to a plant storewith house plants and both of
the people who helped me there,I ended up chatting with them
about this book and they bothordered it while we were
talking.
Mandy (14:23):
Oh my gosh.
katy (14:24):
I.
The evangelist for this book,the Light Eaters.
I loved that the introductionended with this line white women
were and remained segregation's,constant gardeners this plant
metaphor of white supremacybeing Like noxious weeds tended
to by generations of women whoare teaching their daughters to
(14:48):
tend to this garden.
And it has a very, very deeproot system,
Mandy (14:53):
Yeah.
katy (14:53):
like the work she's gonna reveal.
Mandy (14:56):
I also like that that analogy does make it a very
active process.
I.
Like, it's not just thisovergrowth or unattended thing,
it's very purposeful.
there is a lot of hard work thatactually goes into it, by
individuals and communities.
I think that's one of the mainunderlying themes of this book
(15:19):
bringing that to light, thatthis did not happen
unintentionally.
katy (15:25):
no, it is super intentional and then it's also.
micro level when,
Mandy (15:32):
Mm-hmm.
katy (15:33):
when you're able to look at white women.
the ways and the places wherethey are very intentionally
tending to this are soinsidious.
there was one spot, I'm tryingto find the page where she's
listing, that there's reallygonna be four areas that the
book will take a look at acrossfour different women.
Mandy (15:52):
Mm-hmm.
katy (15:53):
And one of those areas is social welfare policy
implemented at a local level.
The second is public education.
The third is electoral politics,where I think have tended to
focus on, but they have stilloverlooked the role of women in
that sphere.
the fourth domain is popularculture.
And so thinking about socialwelfare policy, public ed, and
(16:14):
popular culture, those have notreally been looked at that
closely by.
A lot of historians.
she mentions the way thatthey're tending to this, even
in, the nooks and crannies ofpublic and private life.
so it's congressional campaigns,but it's also PTA meetings.
It's State and national economicpolicy, but it's also household
(16:35):
budget decisions textbookdebates and daycare decisions,
Mandy (16:39):
registrar's offices, like
katy (16:41):
yes.
Mandy (16:42):
wedding certificates, birth certificates, the
categorization or like how theycategorized race.
All of that was very.
Hands-on with the women who werein those roles and in those
fields were mostly white women,and so they were completely
integral into taking thatlegislation and enacting it in
(17:03):
people's lives and making surethat it actually got carried out
in the everyday activities thatpeople were partaking in.
katy (17:10):
this line, where she says, white women were the mass in
massive resistance.
Mandy (17:15):
Mm-hmm.
katy (17:16):
I think setting up this kind of traditional narrative
that a lot of people have aboutthe civil rights movement, you
know, like starting in the 1950sand then ended in the 1960s with
all these victories, like, yay.
And it's, I think that supersimplistic and not an accurate
narrative has been moreeffectively challenged in the
(17:36):
last, you know, couple ofdecades.
even when.
Historians have done a betterjob at talking about women.
they've focused on the whitewomen who were part of the Civil
Rights movement and not thewhite women who were part of the
resistance
Mandy (17:51):
Hmm.
Hmm.
katy (17:52):
when historians have focused on the segregationists,
it's very rare that women arenamed as segregationists, that's
kind of a term that hashistorically been applied to.
men in formal leadership rolesand trying to push on that to
say is a term that absolutelyincludes women and that we
(18:16):
shouldn't conflatesegregationists with
conservatives.
Mandy (18:20):
Mm-hmm.
katy (18:21):
thought was super interesting in the intro.
Do you remember,
Mandy (18:23):
I do remember where she talked about that, that it just
let the segregationist componentof it be underground,
katy (18:32):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (18:34):
because it gave those women a pass, in a way to make
them not seem like they werepart, that they were just, oh,
part of this conservativemovement.
put a prettier label on it,almost.
Mm-hmm.
katy (19:03):
I think being able to understand people who were
committed to segregation cutacross ideological party lines,
that it wasn't just theconservative at the time
would've been the Democratic
Mandy (19:16):
Yeah,
katy (19:16):
was the more conservative party.
Mandy (19:18):
we get into the first chapters and see how this is
interwoven at the exact sametimeframe as the eugenics
movement that we spent a seasonon and how all of these same
players are like intermingling.
in this eugenic and thesegregation and all of these
race politics and yeah, they allknew each other.
(19:40):
They all connected, whether itwas from the south to New York
to California, these, differentinstitutions were working
together to uphold this whitesegregationist attitude
throughout the country,
katy (19:54):
I thought there were a couple things I wanted to ask
you about The first was on page11, she talks about how the most
significant threat to the systemof segregation white women
believed was the apathy of theirwhite neighbors
Mandy (20:08):
Mm-hmm.
katy (20:08):
to realize the work needed to sustain it.
Mandy (20:12):
Yeah, it's really funny that you say that,'cause I have
my finger on that paragraph Theexact same thing that white
apathy was the most importantthreat to the system of racial
segregation.
I mean, which I think is likeanything dies in apathy And so
we talked about when we werestarting to introduce this in
(20:33):
our episode last week, justabout how angry we are at
katy (20:38):
Yeah.
Mandy (20:38):
white women on the other side for being so good at what
they do because.
They are so good at the notletting things go part of it.
Like, it's just like you willnot be allowed to let this not
matter to you.
Kind of an attitude that theyhave.
And they are, you know, lots ofreasons we talked about for why
(21:01):
that happens, better on thatside.
But yeah, I mean, I think apathyis the number one problem we
face in organizing as well.
katy (21:11):
I, I did.
later on in the introduction shetalks about how there clearly
are other threats that,especially after World War she
names a faltering Democraticparty and Invasive United
Nations and interventionistSupreme Court, a widespread
mobilization of blackSoutherners like there were
other.
Threats identified by thesewhite women.
But the original threat,surprised me because if I had to
(21:35):
guess, I wouldn't have guessedthat their one target for.
Maintaining white supremacywould've been other white people
who cared less about it Andmaybe that just reveals how
naive I still am about
Mandy (21:51):
Mm-hmm.
katy (21:51):
how this all works.
then I set the book down and Iwas really thinking about like,
why does that surprise me thatmuch?
And then I remembered this quotefrom.
Martin Luther King's letter froma Birmingham jail, and I am sure
you will remember this quotetoo.
Mandy (22:05):
Mm-hmm.
katy (22:06):
like a pretty famous passage, but he's writing this
letter and he says, I mustconfess that over the past few
years I have been gravelydisappointed with the white
moderate.
I have almost reached theregrettable conclusion that the
Negroes great stumbling blockand his stride toward freedom is
not the white citizens counseloror the Ku Klux k cleaner, but
the white.
Moderate, who is more devoted toorder than to justice, who
(22:27):
prefers a negative peace, whichis the absence of tension to a
positive peace, which is thepresence of justice who
constantly says, I agree withyou on the goal you seek, that I
cannot agree with your methodsof direct action.
Who paternalistic believes hecan set the timetable for
another man's freedom, who livesby a mythical concept of time
and who constantly advises thene to wait freight.
More convenient season.
(22:49):
Shallow understanding frompeople of goodwill is more
frustrating than absolutemisunderstanding from people of
ill will.
Lukewarm acceptance is much morebewildering than outright
rejection, and I just sat withthat, like, maybe I'm not
interpreting these sources as Ishould, but it struck me that.
King is saying the same, likethe inverse of what Mray is
(23:13):
pointing out that these whitewomen were saying which was the
greatest threat to their goalwas this mass of white people,
white moderates,
Mandy (23:27):
Mm-hmm.
katy (23:28):
like King is saying, they are the people who are actually
getting in the way more thananything else, Maybe these women
are saying like they'reinterfering with our ability to
further entrench whitesupremacy, like they're this
weird group in the middle.
Mandy (23:42):
Yeah.
katy (23:42):
I on?
Mandy (23:43):
Yeah.
the thing that conjuress for mein modern politics are all of
the people who voted for Trump,but are like, oh, but I didn't
mean for this.
To happen, or I didn't mean forthis person that I know to be
affected by this.
And I think it's the sameattitude.
(24:05):
It's just this moderate, like goalong with things
katy (24:09):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (24:10):
understand the implications of them, and then
somehow that gives you a pass onthings.
It's probably like the
katy (24:19):
It's almost like, the term woke that I
Mandy (24:21):
mm-hmm.
katy (24:22):
term for lots of
Mandy (24:23):
I love it.
katy (24:24):
maligned term.
it's almost like the people whoare awake are these.
heinous white women who aretending their garden.
They know what's up, they arewell aware of how all this
works, and they are devotingdeliberate energy to maintaining
it.
And then the folks who are awakesee that as the evil that it is,
Mandy (24:43):
Mm-hmm.
katy (24:44):
like eugenics logic and you know, like all of the things
that we critique here.
And then it's this mass in themiddle that.
Just aren't I don't mean to callthe white women who were leading
mass resistance as woke, andthey're not woke in the same
Mandy (25:04):
No,
katy (25:04):
I'm
Mandy (25:04):
I know what you mean.
katy (25:05):
at least they what's happening and like, I don't
think the women are going tomeet in this book.
they're actively pulling on allthese levers, so they
Mandy (25:18):
Mm-hmm.
katy (25:18):
levers exist, they're trying to do something about it
instead of these other women whomight be their neighbors who are
like, oh no, that's not how theworld works.
It's fair, and you just workhard and get ahead
Mandy (25:28):
Mm-hmm.
katy (25:29):
is, like
Mandy (25:30):
Mm-hmm.
katy (25:31):
or
Mandy (25:32):
Mm-hmm.
katy (25:32):
it's like their naivete Fuels the continuation of
Mandy (25:39):
Yep.
katy (25:40):
systems, even though it sounds like from what we're
gonna learn about these women,that they were annoyed that they
weren't getting more fuel fromthose people
Mandy (25:47):
Yeah.
katy (25:47):
in my mind, they're getting plenty from them.
Like those people's apathy onlyreally benefits, at the end of
the day.
I think the scorecard looksbetter for the white
supremacists when people areapathetic than for the other
side.
Mandy (26:02):
Well, because I don't think it, it doesn't take much
to lead apathetic people in thedirection that these women
wanted to take them,
katy (26:12):
supremacy.
Mandy (26:13):
Yeah.
katy (26:14):
the what's current.
So it's one thing to maintainthat system it's another to.
Fundamentally dismantle thatsystem and build something new.
Yep.
much easier to do that than itis to people that something new
is different.
So I guess in some ways I wasjust so annoyed, like them
(26:34):
seeing that as their biggestthreat just bothered me.
Like, I don't think they'rewrong.
It was just like, God damn, youcan't have everything, you know?
Mandy (26:44):
Yeah, I totally felt the same way, but I guess we'll see
how apathetic people turned outto be.
'cause it seems like theydidn't.
katy (26:53):
so apathetic because the book opens by explaining one of
the women.
We're gonna learn more aboutMrs.
Hug Bell, and actually
Mandy (26:59):
Mm-hmm.
katy (27:00):
of you and your petty detective, miss, one of the
questions I would love to askthe author of this book is.
If she's had relatives of thesewomen come for her, for holding
up their legacies as examples ofwhite supremacy and
segregationism.
we talked about this when wewere talking about voting rights
(27:21):
I'm very clear about my positionon Kerry Chapman cat and.
Her support of white supremacy,which is well documented and
many other white suffrageleaders using, people's bigotry
as a way to.
Get them to support the 19thAmendment.
You know, like if you let whitewomen vote, then we will help
you maintain these systems ofoppression.
(27:42):
being that naked and explicitabout that bargain.
And I've had interactions withher great, great nephew and a
superfan of hers where they justlike.
Cannot stand that someone withany kind of platform would
share, would say those thingsabout this woman that they
revere so much.
Mandy (28:01):
Mm-hmm.
katy (28:02):
just curious if she's had, any family members come for her
in any kind of way for namingtheir grandma or whoever
Mandy (28:11):
As a white supremacist.
Yeah.
yeah.
I always find that wholereaction very fascinating.
maybe that's because I grew up.
With a mother who refused totake on that, you know, the
platitudes of, you know, don'tspeak ill of the dead.
It's like, well, who cares ifthey're dead or not?
If they were an asshole, they'restill an asshole.
(28:34):
Like, why are
katy (28:34):
no problem.
Mandy (28:36):
No.
We're like, Nope, we're gonnacall it out the way it was.
You may be dead, but we rememberwhat you were like when you were
alive.
I also think it just doesn'thelp move us along if we're not
willing to.
Accept and point out andcriticize
katy (28:52):
Yep.
Mandy (28:53):
various parts of our history, you know,
katy (28:56):
I.
Mandy (28:57):
yeah.
katy (28:57):
your nana may have loved you and made delicious
applesauce
Mandy (29:02):
Yeah.
katy (29:03):
it's possible to love people who do awful things.
Mandy (29:06):
Yep.
katy (29:06):
be more complex than like, you're in, you're out.
You know, we can live morecomplicated lives than that, but
I always gonna say was, um, Mrs.
Bell, was trying to push back onthe Brown V Board decision to
desegregate and.
Within a couple months hadgotten 5,000 signatures, which
was
Mandy (29:24):
Mm-hmm.
katy (29:25):
one third of her county's white population.
So it's hard for me to say thattheir fears that not enough
white people supported them werethat well founded.
Mandy (29:33):
Yeah.
katy (29:34):
of
Mandy (29:34):
Yeah.
They seemed to do pretty wellwhen it came to,
katy (29:38):
the last thing I wanted to ask you is where in this
introduction, you felt like youwere reading about history, but
you felt like it could have beena description of current events.
Mandy (29:46):
Yeah.
I think through most of it, likethat's the problem.
I think that, that, that.
The fact that you just realizethat this has never gone away.
You know, it's never gone away.
And it's because we have not,partially because we have not
(30:07):
named it and because we haven'treally called it for what it is,
it has been allowed to continueon.
we discussed that a little bitlast week too.
these women's progeny are stillout there and they're still
using a lot of the same tacticsand these ideas are in no way
katy (30:27):
Mm.
Mandy (30:28):
I think I would've been more, I wouldn't have thought
that, 12 years ago
katy (30:34):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (30:34):
15, 20 years ago, I would've been more shocked by
all of this.
But I feel like now I'm justlike, oh yeah, I see
katy (30:42):
here's,
Mandy (30:43):
what happened.
katy (30:44):
I love writing in books that I own.
I love annotating them.
Mandy (30:48):
Mm-hmm.
katy (30:48):
on page 16, she talks about, after World War ii, how,
what conservative or women werecrusading against many supported
and anemic federal budgetrestricted voting rights.
State, not federal control ofpolitical and civil rights,
sacrosanct property rights andstates' rights in terms of
public education.
The campaign against theinfluence of John Dewey's
progressive pedagogy, rejectedmulticulturalism in the
(31:09):
classroom opposed the creationof a Federal Department of
Education and remained wed to acurriculum centered on American
exceptionalism.
Mandy (31:16):
Yep.
katy (31:17):
that public schools were an extension of their homes and
should reflect their valuesexclusively upholding parental
authority and patriotism.
Mandy (31:23):
I wrote in the margins of that exact same thing.
There are very deep roots of theanti federal education system in
this country.
if that's not something thatcouldn't be right out of project
2025, I don't know,
katy (31:37):
If any, I mean, I'm already fired up enough, but
just reading that it was like,these bitches aren't gonna win.
Like deepest part of me is justlike, they can't win this, this
agenda, this set of goals.
Like this can't be whatprevails, you know,
Mandy (31:56):
I mean, I hope I'm so like downtrodden.
katy (32:02):
I'm not
Mandy (32:02):
I feel like they are winning.
katy (32:04):
No, it is.
I think what I'm saying is notthat I believe it won't prevail,
but
Mandy (32:10):
Yep.
katy (32:11):
I'm even more fortified that with every breath I take,
this has to be the of our life'swork is
Mandy (32:19):
Yeah.
katy (32:20):
know that this is going on pay attention,
Mandy (32:23):
Pay attention.
katy (32:25):
and
Mandy (32:25):
Mm-hmm.
katy (32:26):
Garden, our own garden, you know,
Mandy (32:28):
Yep.
katy (32:28):
do whatever we can to help people understand that the fruit
they're eating from that gardenis giving.
Mandy (32:35):
Yeah.
katy (32:36):
that it is not nutritious, it is not healthy.
And if they can make it, tastegood for you.
It is, it's poison.
Mandy (32:44):
I think a lot of us are looking for ways like, what can
I actually do?
Because on a national level itseems impossible to do anything.
part of what I had highlightedon page 18, says, their
experience told them that whitesupremacist politics acted on a
local level in school boarddecisions in teacher trainings,
(33:05):
in bureaucratic categorizations.
In public welfare policies andin historical narratives would
prove more difficult to uprootand eradicate than national or
even state level policies.
And I think that's still true.
we need to know.
What is happening at these locallevels of the school Board of
(33:28):
Welfare policies of things thatare going on, at our state and
local levels that are reallyhard to get out and do actually
have impact on our lives, on ourchildren's lives.
And we have to fight againstthem there because that's where
they take root and that's wherethey remain.
katy (33:47):
there's actually hope in that knowledge that if these
women could use those tools forthat purpose, then we can use
them for ours.
Mandy (33:58):
Yep.
katy (33:59):
I gotta
Mandy (33:59):
Yep.
katy (34:00):
with that.
Mandy (34:00):
Okay.
katy (34:01):
to talk to you today
Mandy (34:02):
Okay.
katy (34:02):
glad people
Mandy (34:03):
time
katy (34:04):
reading
Mandy (34:04):
yeah, go move on to chapter one.
read the intro, read chapterone.
We will talk about it next week.
katy (34:11):
Sounds great.
All right.
Mandy (34:12):
Okay, bye.
katy (34:14):
Bye.
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