November 29, 2025 • 41 mins
In this episode of 'Our Dirty Laundry,' our discussion centers around Catherine Beecher, an influential figure in American education history. We explore her advocacy for women's education, her writings on domestic economy, and contrasting stances on suffrage and slavery. The episode reveals Beecher's complicated legacy and her contributions to the education system, while critiquing her views on gradual emancipation and the appropriate methods of addressing moral evils like slavery. We connect these historical perspectives to contemporary issues in education and women's roles in professional fields. Join the conversation as we examine the enduring impact of Beecher's ideology on current societal structures.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Hi, this is Mandy Griffin.
(00:01):
And I'm Katie Swalwell, andwelcome to our Dirty Laundry,
stories of white ladies making amess of things and how we need
to clean up our act.
Mandy (00:15):
Hi everybody.
katy (00:17):
Hi, happy Thanksgiving, although I say that, and then
that immediately lodges thisepisode in a very specific time
stamp, right?
Mandy (00:28):
time that we are doing it.
So if you're listening to thislater, months later, whenever
later,
katy (00:35):
On repeat to get away from your family in a closet or like
locked in a room somewhere.
That's fine.
We see you.
Yes.
I What are you feelingespecially grateful for?
I know that's like, we've doneepisodes in the past about the
history of Thanksgiving and nowfucked up it is in what the
history actually is, but I dolike the idea of gratitude.
(00:55):
I think that's really important.
So that sliver of this holidayat least, is there anything
you're feeling grateful for?
Mandy (01:03):
I think the first thing that I always feel grateful for,
and probably just'cause I seethe opposite so much in every
day of what I do, is just for.
Being healthy and
katy (01:13):
Yeah,
Mandy (01:14):
me being because I also know how quickly that can
change.
And
katy (01:19):
right.
Mandy (01:20):
every day that, you know, I think you are in a healthy
body, an able body like issomething that you should be
grateful for.
'cause that Go away.
katy (01:31):
I mean, it will go away.
Yeah.
It's just a matter of time andcircumstance.
I, whenever I have been, youknow, like how you have the flu
or you're hungover or whateverit is, and you're like, God,
when I feel better, I'm going tojust thank God every day for my
health.
And then that lasts like eighthours and then you go back to
just living your life and youforget to be grateful for that.
(01:51):
So I think that's really good.
Mandy (01:53):
I hate having a sore throat so much.
It's like one of my leastfavorite symptoms is when you
can't like breathe or swallowwithout intense pain.
katy (02:01):
Yeah.
Mandy (02:02):
it's'cause I had strep so much in high school like junior
high, I mean all throughout mychildhood.
'cause I had my tonsils outtwice'cause I got strep so much
and they grew
katy (02:10):
Wait, what?
Mandy (02:11):
this
katy (02:11):
What?
Mandy (02:12):
Yeah.
katy (02:12):
I have so many questions.
Okay.
What?
Mandy (02:15):
I
katy (02:16):
a possibility.
Mandy (02:17):
Yeah.
katy (02:18):
No.
Mandy (02:18):
if you get'em out super young, because I had my tonsils
out before I was two years
katy (02:22):
They grow back.
Mandy (02:24):
much, because I had a mountain I was so young.
If there's any tissue leftthere, they can grow back and
mine back
katy (02:31):
Okay.
I know like hair grows, buthair's dead and like nails.
But is there any other part ofour body if removed?
Just can regenerate like that?
Mandy (02:40):
I don't know if can regenerate or if you can just
subsist off of not having awhole thing.
'cause they can take part ofyour liver out
katy (02:47):
Oh, sure.
I know like you take yourappendix out, whatever, but
like, I've never heard aboutsomething where like, oh, I got
my appendix removed and then Ihad to get it removed 10 years
later.
Mandy (02:55):
back,
katy (02:56):
No.
Mandy (02:57):
Yeah.
I don't know.
I don't, not that I
katy (02:59):
Or what is like Lorena Bobbitt's like, ah, shoot, it
grew back.
Mandy (03:04):
Men wish,
katy (03:05):
Yeah.
That is so
Mandy (03:06):
grow back bigger
katy (03:08):
fascinating.
Oh my God.
Yeah.
Oh, there'd be so muchexperimenting.
There's just no question aboutit.
That is fascinating.
Well, yeah.
Mandy (03:15):
I do have a sore throat, I always think like, when this
goes away.
katy (03:19):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (03:19):
be grateful and of course like you do forget, but I will
katy (03:22):
Yeah.
Mandy (03:22):
every once in a while, swallow no pain.
I'm like, oh, I'm so
katy (03:26):
You do a little skip down the hallway.
It's so great.
It is so funny.
It is hard to sometimes begrateful for the absence of
something.
It's, at least for me, it'sprobably easier to be grateful
for the things that are present,you know?
But both are good things toacknowledge.
Mandy (03:43):
About you?
katy (03:45):
what am I grateful for?
Well, I, I, we've been havinglike a roller coaster.
Parenting time, just, you know,the kids are five and eight and
our 5-year-old is like, I don'tthink there's a name.
You know how it's like terribletwos, teenagers, something is
like a lot of my friends whohave five year-old boys are just
(04:06):
like, what is this?
Like, there's something that isfrustrating and hard, so I feel
grateful that we're like ridingthrough that storm.
I think with love and integrity.
And then this afternoon, what,like, I, I am always grateful
when we have even like 20minutes of time where the kids
(04:27):
are happy together and playingtogether, and everyone's like in
a good mood, you know?
And any moment the shoe is gonnadrop and someone's going to
like, either accidentally slaminto each other and then
someone's crying or purposefullyslam into each other and then
somebody's crying, you know, itjust, it's a very fragile piece
it feels like.
And so they were just having.
(04:47):
The time of their lives, likeplaying fashion show and
dancing, and it was so sweet andI was so happy and it was really
great.
So I'm grateful for the momentswhen my children are getting
along and not whining orpretending to be incapable of
doing something that they'revery capable of doing, which is
my pet peeve.
Mandy (05:08):
Yep.
I feel like there's a lot ofthose transitions.
Five is like a transitional agefrom being home, like being
totally
katy (05:15):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (05:16):
on your family, like still being very insulated and
then they go to school aroundthat time I
katy (05:23):
Yeah.
Mandy (05:23):
they're, you know, learning all this stuff that
helps them communicate, but alsoto learn
katy (05:28):
Oh my gosh.
Mandy (05:30):
And I think that that.
katy (05:31):
It's huge.
Mandy (05:32):
a really
katy (05:33):
Okay.
This is actually a perfect segueto what we're talking about
today.
And I will tell one funny storybefore we transition fully, but
Bo is learning to read and writeand, and he's clearly that skill
is like exploding for him.
And so I think that's actuallypart of why he is fussy lately.
Like when there's those, I can'tremember what they're called,
like Wonder Weeks or somethingwhen they're babies, when it's
(05:55):
like, oh, is your baby reallyfussy?
They're about to level up.
Like they're about to walk orthey're about to talk or
something.
Like, why are they suchassholes?
It's like, oh, don't worry, it'snot forever.
You know?
And so I think that's what'sgoing on because he's really,
really into it.
And the other day I like verymuch lost my temper was just
like, kind of like late into himabout something in the morning
(06:17):
before we went to church andwe're sitting there.
He, his sister, my daughter wentto the little class and he was
not gonna go because I did nottrust what he was, how he was
gonna behave.
And he chose to stay with meanyway.
And so I was writing sentencesfor him to read, like, the bird
is mad, or whatever, you know,and he was sounding them out for
(06:38):
me and he was really into it andexcited.
Just was kind of keeping himbusy during the service.
And then I said, do you wannawrite a sentence for me?
And he got really excited and hewrote it and then very
sheepishly handed it to me andit said, I hate mom spelled
correctly and properpunctuation.
So,
Mandy (06:57):
wow.
katy (06:58):
good job, bud.
That I, I was like, well, okay.
And I wrote back, I am sorry.
I don't like to fight, and hesounded that out and read it and
then crossed out.
I hate mom and wrote a newsentence that said, I am sorry
too.
It was just like reallypowerful.
The literacy is amazing.
(07:19):
Okay, why that is a segue isbecause the woman who is
credited with a like hugeinfluence on.
Primary education and reallyjust education in the United
States.
That's the focus is how thatwe're talking about in this
(07:40):
season, the weaponization ofmotherhood and the connection to
education and classrooms asextensions of the home where
white women are mothering otherpeople's children is just very.
Tight, and this woman is one ofthe like originators of that
relationship and gluing it intoplace.
And her name is CatherineBeecher.
Mandy (08:02):
Oh, I know that name.
katy (08:03):
Okay.
That's great.
Mandy (08:05):
Mm-hmm.
katy (08:05):
I, it sounded like vaguely familiar to me, but there she's
definitely connected to peoplethat we know for sure.
Mandy (08:11):
Yeah,
katy (08:12):
she's born in East Hampton, New York in 1800, the
oldest of nine children.
Her parents are Rock Santa Foot,which to me is like a super cool
name.
That does not sound like.
Mandy (08:26):
sort of like, you know, like rock star or
katy (08:29):
Yeah,
Mandy (08:29):
something like,
katy (08:30):
someone born in like 1780, you know, you wouldn't expect
that.
Roxanna Foot and Lyman Beecher,which is like a very nerdy name.
So here's like Hot Roxanna,married to Nerd Lyman but he's
this famous MinisterPresbyterian minister.
And they have all these kids.
The, when she, when Catherine isyoung, the family moves to
(08:51):
Connecticut, Litchfield,Connecticut, and that's where
she attends the LitchfieldFemale Academy.
We're going to dive into somefamily trauma because that all
of these people have that.
I know you're shocked.
She's 16 and her mother dies,and so she has eight kids to
take care of, and she becomeslike the matric of this family a
(09:13):
year later.
Her dad remarries.
I'm sure that's interesting thatthere's probably a lot of
dynamic there that did not getrecorded for the history books.
But if you are a 16-year-old andyou've been raising eight kids
for a year and then your dadremarries, like, I can imagine
that being a really complicatedthing like a year later, you
know,
Mandy (09:32):
Mm-hmm.
katy (09:33):
then they Lyman and his new wife, Harriet Porter, have
three sons and a daughter.
Their daughter is HarrietBeecher Sau.
She's the author of Uncle Tom'sCabin, like the famous author,
and we've talked, right, we'vetalked about her before in the
context of our season on slaveryand how white, a lot of white
(09:53):
women abolitionists were stillvery problematic in a lot of
ways, and she is probably themost famous example of that.
She, Catherine has other famoussiblings, half siblings,
Isabella Beecher Hooker, asuffrage leader who I was diving
into her and she's very.
White women suffrage from ourseason on suffrage, like friends
with Elizabeth Katy Stanton andSusan B.
(10:14):
Anthony in that whole scene.
Henry Ward Beecher, who's afamous pastor, and very
outspoken abolitionist and asupporter of temperance and
women's suffrage, like a verypopular, I picture them kind of
as like a weirdly likePresbyterian.
19th Century Kardashian family,like all of them are famous for
(10:36):
kind of similar things, youknow, like, in this case, it's
in influencer read with if weconsider like temperance and
suffrage and whatever.
So she's loves to write, lovesto read.
She gets poems published by thetime that she's in her teens
like in national magazines inher early twenties, she gets
(10:56):
engaged to a math professor atYale and his name is Alexander
Fisher.
The site that I was pulling thisfrom is the National Women's
History Museum.
Most of this information and itvery cryptically says she had
doubts about their union.
Mandy (11:12):
Hmm.
katy (11:13):
What is that all about?
Why?
I really just want hot Gosshistory.
Like,
Mandy (11:21):
I wish
katy (11:22):
that's it.
Mandy (11:22):
could go back and just find all
katy (11:24):
Oh, like girl, why?
Tell me He dies in a shipwreckand then she never gets married.
Mandy (11:32):
Oh hmm.
katy (11:33):
Another one of those who has a lot of thoughts about how
to raise children.
Mandy (11:37):
But
katy (11:38):
Ever having children of her own
Mandy (11:40):
raising children?
katy (11:41):
See, beginning of this conversation where
Mandy (11:44):
Mm-hmm.
katy (11:44):
so much that happens when you live with young children and
have to deal with them all thetime.
Mandy (11:50):
Yeah.
katy (11:50):
They're glorious little monsters.
Okay.
In 1823, Catherine and hersister Mary founded the Hartford
Female Seminary.
And at the time there wereschools for girls.
There weren't, as we weretalking about in the last
episode, there weren't likepublic schools the way we think
of them at this time.
But if you had money and youwere a white girl, like maybe
(12:11):
you would go and you would studylike languages and the arts, you
know, it was kind of like a,like finishing school in sort
of.
Away, you know, like become alady.
But this school, Mary andKatherine decided to have all
subjects available to girls,which was not the norm.
And she was really into pe.
(12:33):
So
Mandy (12:34):
mean, I'm beginning to wonder why she didn't
katy (12:36):
I might, there might have been doubts.
Mandy (12:38):
doubts?
katy (12:39):
So she is really into, I don't know that I, I, this word
we don't hear enough anymorecalisthenics, but I picture
where you're just like doingjumping jacks and you're like,
you know, doing all the poses inlines.
In a field.
But here's, I, there just like alot of people that we learn
about, like there are thingsthat I admire or appreciate and
(13:02):
her refusal to just have womeneducated about these certain
topics and the, at the timethere was.
If there were beliefs frommedical doctors that women
shouldn't ride bikes becausethen they would never be able to
have children, or they shouldn'texert themselves in any way
because they will becomehysterical.
And she was like, that'sgarbage.
Girls are going to, you know,exercise like that's good for
(13:26):
their health.
Okay.
Then like about 10 years later,she moves west to Ohio and her
father had become president ofLane Theological Seminary, which
was in Cincinnati.
And it's like a progressive,Christian progressive, like,
let's put that in quotes.
'cause that's a very.
Sliding term of course, but sheopens another school, the
(13:46):
Western Female Institute.
She also worked on the McGuffeyreaders.
And we're gonna talk a lot moreabout McGuffey readers in a
feature mini.
So can you picture what thoseare, like
Mandy (13:57):
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's
katy (13:58):
old timey books
Mandy (14:00):
mm-hmm.
katy (14:01):
that it's like.
Mandy (14:02):
about them being some, maybe some episodes
katy (14:04):
I am sure we have.
They're, they're really like,like canonically messed up, but
that was, you know, veryChristian and like all of that.
She is then becomes like alecturer writer and she's
writing all these books about.
Women, and here are some of thetitles.
A Treatise on Domestic Economy,the Duty of American Women to
(14:26):
Their Country, the DomesticReceipt Book.
And all of these books arebasically preaching, like in
many ways she is kind of apreacher, you know, like her
father.
She's focused on what women'srole is as mothers and
educators.
So those to her are absolutely.
Combined like that is like youcannot take those apart and that
(14:47):
their primary job is to raisethe next generation of
Democratic citizens, little dDemocratic.
And so she is very, it's, it'sone of those, like we've talked
about this before, where you,you know, she has these more
progressive ideas to accomplisha very conservative goal.
Mandy (15:08):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
katy (15:10):
Just the, like there are clear gender roles, very, very
clear.
Mandy (15:14):
same.
just the playing field.
Widens a little
katy (15:19):
Right, right.
Like I want them to be educatedabout everything in order to
fulfill this very narrowconcrete role really well.
Right, exactly.
She's preaching self-sacrifice,modesty, frugality et cetera.
Here is a quote from her in1846.
She says, soon in all parts ofour country, in each neglected
village or new settlement, theChristian female teacher will
(15:42):
quietly take her stationcollecting the ignorant children
around her.
Teaching them habits of neatnessorder and thrift opening the
book of Knowledge, inspiring theprinciples of morality and
awakening, the hope ofimmortality.
So just from that one quote,where might we be concerned
about white supremacy?
(16:04):
Like where,
Mandy (16:06):
mean, it's, the very premise is that she's taking
these like little heathens.
katy (16:12):
yes.
Mandy (16:12):
And turning them into domesticated animals, basically.
katy (16:16):
Yes.
Mandy (16:16):
Yeah.
Uhhuh,
katy (16:18):
Keep in.
This is that quote.
Oh, go ahead.
Mandy (16:20):
no, no.
I was just gonna say also likewhose idea of like complete
operating person are we takinghere?
Like how does that get decided?
katy (16:32):
No, this quote really goes into so much.
We're gonna talk in the next fewepisodes about the boarding
schools that indigenous childrenwere sent to.
And this, this is like the heartof that idea, which is neatness
order and thrift the habits forthat.
Well, like whose habits andwhose standards of that or
collecting the ignorantchildren.
Children who are ignorant ofwhat Christianity.
(16:53):
Well, if you aren't Christianwho care, you know, like it's,
it's very, eurocentric veryself, like the sense that we
have the secret sauce
Mandy (17:04):
Okay.
katy (17:04):
we are defining what it means to be a good American
citizen that is steeped inwhiteness and Christianity and
you know, European Americanness.
And so that's, that's what we'retrying to impart to you.
Poor, pitiful people who don'thave access to that.
So it's like educational accessthat is driven by pity and a
(17:27):
belief that people should try toassimilate as much as they can.
Right.
Mandy (17:31):
Yeah.
And Hierarchy of what's correct
katy (17:34):
for sure.
Mandy (17:34):
is, yeah.
katy (17:35):
Yes, she, and of course this is also like just before
the Civil War, the 1840s ismassive settlement and massive
expansion like.
A lot of genocide happening inthe United States as there's
displacement of indigenouspeople.
So she's, you know, she wasn'tvery far west.
We're talking Ohio.
(17:56):
But that's, she's part of thismovement.
In 1852, she found the AmericanWomen's Educational Association,
and that organization isintended to prepare teachers to
move further on the frontier tobuild schools.
So she's very intentional abouthaving.
White women be part of thesettlement project and having
(18:18):
motherhood and education be partof what is going to civilize the
West in the United States.
And again, we are, we're gonnaunpack that quite a bit more.
In the 1860s and seventiesagain, according to the National
Women's History Museum, she goesback to teaching in different
ways.
She and her half sister HarryBeecher au write a book together
(18:40):
called The American Woman'sHome.
And here's where it'sinteresting.
So there were two key issuesthat she actually took very
different stances than.
Her family and they're two bigones, suffrage and slavery.
So yeah, here we go.
So she actually opposes women'ssuffrage.
And in our suffrage season we,we unpacked why there were women
(19:03):
who believed in educating womenand would be public speakers
themselves who were advocatingagainst women having a public.
Role, right?
Like that.
That's just not their, they havethis other role in a democracy.
It is to prepare the nextgeneration through educating
children, and that is their roleand that is their power.
And they should not be involvedin this other sphere because
(19:25):
that's the man's sphere, manosphere, the original, and that
is not their.
Business really like the waythat women are powerful is in
the home and influencingchildren, and so that's where we
should focus.
Mandy (19:42):
the good old days of when we recorded those episodes?
And I naively thought that thatwas an attitude of the past.
katy (19:51):
That was going away.
Mandy (19:53):
Yeah, it was like
katy (19:54):
This is so sweet.
Mandy (19:55):
how people actually thought anymore, and come to
find out, no, people were justmore quiet about it then, but
apparently there's lots of womenwho still hold those values, I
katy (20:09):
It.
Mandy (20:09):
you
katy (20:10):
It,
Mandy (20:10):
that.
katy (20:10):
yeah.
Right.
It is.
It is.
So like I do want to value thepower of what it means to raise
children.
Like that is an important,valuable job.
That deserves respect andsupport and resources.
Mandy (20:27):
to
katy (20:27):
I
Mandy (20:28):
only do that.
katy (20:29):
an ov Exactly.
Because you have a uterus, anovaries like that makes no sense
to me at all.
Mandy (20:36):
you don't need any role in decision making or you know.
Leadership or anything becauseof that.
That's where, that's where itgets me to like, I mean, we've
katy (20:45):
No.
Mandy (20:45):
about this so many times.
Like I, I love homemakingthings.
I love
katy (20:51):
you are good at it.
Like I, I can actually have apolitical stance that is also
masking my absolute inability todo these things too.
So I, I take you more seriouslybecause you're not trying to
hide anything.
You are actually really good atall that stuff.
Mandy (21:05):
Yeah, I like all of it.
I just don't see in what worldanyone thinks that that means
katy (21:11):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (21:12):
fucking vote, or like, I just don't, it doesn't, it does
not compute in my brain.
But anyway,
katy (21:19):
no.
Or that I'm supposed to entrustmy wellbeing to like a male
representative of my family.
No thank you.
Mandy (21:25):
Mm-hmm.
katy (21:27):
Okay.
So here I'm gonna read someexcerpts of things that she
wrote and I will pause forreaction.
You ready?
Okay.
So this is part of her,explanations of the role of
women as teachers.
So again, when we're thinkingabout this season and the way
that white women weaponizemotherhood, and one of the way
they ways they do that isthrough becoming teachers and
(21:51):
the profession of teachers.
And here, I, I really wannathink, like, ask you to situate,
like listen to what I'm gonnaread you knowing what's
happening in.
Two professions right now thatare majority female.
Thinking about your role as aphysician's assistant, RNs, and
the recent legislation, what isit, legislation or executive
(22:13):
orders or what is it to Deproprofessionalize.
Mandy (22:15):
we can.
Get into the details of it.
I mean, so part of it is, isthat actually the law didn't
necessarily change.
It's like an old law back inlike the 1990s, and it says
something about likeprofessional careers and it has
things listed like you know,attorneys, medical doctors,
(22:38):
whatever.
But it says.
but are not limited to and listthose professions.
Things like nursing, PAs socialworkers.
They were never actually listedin the law.
They were just kind of groupedinto that are not limited to
phrase and that was taken out.
Anything that's not specificallylisted in that law is now no
(23:00):
longer considered a professionaldegree.
And why that matters is morebecause of how the funding.
Of education happens and howpeople can take out loans to pay
for their education.
And if you are under aprofessional designation, you
could take out higher loanamounts
katy (23:19):
Yes.
Mandy (23:19):
and now you cannot, which will severely impact the people
who can go
katy (23:24):
Yes.
Mandy (23:25):
and then cause huge shortages in areas that already
have huge shortages.
And it's just like this wholedownstream effect that's
horrific, but.
katy (23:34):
And not for nothing.
The professions that were justdepro professionalized by this
language shift
Mandy (23:41):
Are
katy (23:41):
are majority women.
Right.
And so that, that's part ofthis.
So, so the argument, like myfield is education.
I was an education professor, Iwas a classroom teacher.
And that's a longstandingargument in the field is whether
teaching is a profession.
And I would argue absolutely itis like it, there's no doubt in
my mind.
But be, it's like even aquestion in large part because
(24:03):
it's a feminized workforce.
And so that's something to keepin mind too.
And the fact, as we talked aboutlast week, that increasingly it
be, it's becoming an even morewhite woman teaching,
Mandy (24:16):
Mm-hmm.
katy (24:16):
but as a career, as a profession.
Mandy (24:18):
Mm-hmm.
katy (24:19):
here's Catherine Beecher.
So.
Again, pausing for yourthoughts.
It is to mothers and to teachersthat the world is to look for
the character, which is to be instamped on each succeeding
generation.
For it is to them that the greatbusiness of education is almost
exclusively committed, and willit not appear by examination
that neither mothers norteachers have ever been properly
(24:39):
educated for their profession?
What is the profession of awoman?
Mandy (24:45):
Hm.
katy (24:45):
It is it not to form immortal minds and to watch to
nurse to rear the bodily system.
So fearfully and wonderfullymade and upon the order and
regulation of which the healthand wellbeing of mind so greatly
depends.
Is it not the business, theprofession of the woman to guard
the health and form?
The physical habits of the youngand is, is not the cradle of
(25:06):
infancy and the chamber ofsickness sacred to woman alone,
and ought she not to know atleast some of the general
principles of that perfect andwonderful piece of mechanism
committed to her preservationand care.
Mandy (25:18):
Yeah, I
katy (25:18):
Yeah.
Mandy (25:18):
have like two thoughts during that.
Like one is just like, oh, do wehave to like, make everything
fit into this capitalistic worldthat we
katy (25:27):
Oh.
Mandy (25:28):
Do all of our daily activities have to be termed
some sort of job or professionor something that, you
katy (25:36):
Mm
Mandy (25:37):
you, you have to spend your time and money and get paid
for or
katy (25:40):
hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (25:59):
and the learning of children as women do.
That whole line of things aboutit being women's work, I just
cannot ever get behind.
katy (26:09):
No.
Mandy (26:09):
that's because I also have like good men in my life.
Maybe
katy (26:13):
Right.
Right.
Mandy (26:14):
good men in their lives,
katy (26:16):
Hmm.
Mandy (26:17):
never fathom like a male.
That could be such a positiveimpact on children.
katy (26:24):
That's super interesting.
Or, or like no one that theytrusted.
To still give them space andpower and respect if the women
weren't doing this care.
Mandy (26:39):
Mm-hmm.
katy (26:39):
know what I'm saying?
Like if I leave what has beenkind of socially acceptable as
my powerful role will, I stillhave.
Like, will the men in my lifestill value?
Right, right.
I, of course, we always havethis as a caveat too.
There are people who are neitherman or woman and always have
been and always will be.
So that's all like right away isalso a question.
(27:00):
But what I thought was sointeresting, especially given
the news this week of thatDeprofessionalization, was how
she's linking teaching motheringand nursing.
Together.
Mandy (27:11):
Mm-hmm.
katy (27:12):
then it made me think of Elizabeth Gillespie Mcgras book
and the, the like intimatespaces, I think she called it
where it was social work andlike when kids were born in the
hospital, like all these momentsthat women had these jobs where
they were building whitesupremacist systems in those
moments.
And I was like, Ugh.
(27:32):
Here it is.
Mandy (27:33):
Yep.
katy (27:33):
Here's the last little part that she writes.
If all females were not onlywell educated themselves, but
were prepared to communicate inan easy manner, their stores of
knowledge to others, if they notonly knew how to regulate their
own minds, tempers and habits,but how to affect improvements
in those around them.
The face of society would bespeedily changed.
The time may come when the worldwill look back with wonder to
behold how much time and efforthave been given to the mere
(27:56):
cultivation of memory, and howlittle mankind have been aware
of what every teacher, parent,and friend could accomplish.
The social, immortal, moralcharacter of those with whom
they are surrounded.
Mandy (28:06):
Hmm.
katy (28:08):
The question of whose morals and to what ends you're
trying to shape society becomevery, very, very important.
If that's your stance, right?
Mandy (28:19):
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
katy (28:21):
So here I move to her position on slavery as an
example of.
That molding that she isadvocating for and that, you
know, there's teachers beingprepared and she's opening these
schools that become modelschools.
So she wrote this essay onslavery and abolitionism in
reference to the Duty ofAmerican females.
(28:41):
And it's a response to a lecturetour from the Grimke sisters,
Angelina and Sarah Grimke, who,who were like legit.
Like anti-racist abolitionists,and were speaking at the time to
mixed gender audiences, gasp andlike just, you know, the
proverbial balls to the wall.
(29:01):
Okay.
So Catherine Beecher writes aresponse to this lecture and she
writes it as if she's writing aletter, but it was meant to be
published, you know, foreveryone to read.
So here we go.
Okay, my dear friend.
She begins.
The object I have in view is topresent some reasons why it
(29:22):
seems unwise and in expedientfor ladies of the non-live
holding states to unitethemselves in abolition
societies.
I know not where to look fornorthern Christians who would
deny that every slave holder isbound to treat his slaves
exactly as he would claim thathis own children ought to be
treated in similarcircumstances.
That the holding of our fellowmen is property or the
(29:42):
withholding any of the rights offreedom for mere purposes of
gain.
Is a sin and ought to beimmediately abandoned, and that
where the laws are such that aslave holder cannot legally
emancipate his slaves withoutthrowing them into worse
bondage.
He's bound to use all hisinfluence to alter those laws,
and in the meantime, to treathis slaves as nearly as he can,
as if they were free.
I do not suppose there's oneperson in a thousand in the
(30:04):
north who would dissent fromthese principles.
Catherine, I beg to differinterjecting, like, I think
there are actually, they wouldonly differ in the use of terms
and call this doctrine ofgradual emancipation.
Well, abolitionists would callit the doctrine of immediate
emancipation.
So she's saying yes, yes.
Everyone agrees slavery is bad.
Mandy (30:26):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Which, no, first
katy (30:28):
No.
Yeah, a no.
As the Women of the South inElizabeth Gillespie's Mcgras
book knew very well that like,ha ha, wait till it gets to the
north.
You'll see just how likesuperficial this is, right?
But she's saying the way thatthey are going about it is
wrong.
Okay?
And here's her reasoning why thedistinctive peculiarity of the
(30:52):
Abolition Society is this.
It is a voluntary association inone section of the country
designed to awaken publicsentiment against a moral evil
existing in another section ofthe country.
Like, yes, I get it, I guess,but also that's.
Mandy (31:07):
your business?
Is that what she's saying?
katy (31:10):
A little bit, and I think it's the, like, it's this
narrative that the north isdisconnected from slavery,
Mandy (31:16):
Mm-hmm.
katy (31:17):
it's just in the south.
It's so frustrating becausethat's just not the history of
it.
Like people were enslaved in thenorth for a really long time,
and
Mandy (31:25):
And
katy (31:25):
businesses, northern institutions, there's like, oh
my gosh.
Mandy (31:28):
Yeah.
Yeah.
katy (31:29):
Okay.
So already she's like, we aregood and they are bad.
Okay.
The principle object of theGrimke sisters proposed to her,
I suppose, is to present facts,arguments, and persuasions to
influence Northern ladies toenroll themselves As members of
this association, I willtherefore proceed to present
some of the reasons which may bebrought against such a measure
as the one you would urge.
The position that I would aim toestablish is that the method
(31:52):
taken by the abolition.
Abolitionist is the one thataccording to the laws of mind
and past experience is leastlikely to bring about the
results they aim to accomplish.
It's like telling them likeyour, it's going to backfire.
Okay?
The general statement is this,the object to be accomplished is
first to convince a certaincommunity that they're in the
practice of a great sin, andsecondly, to make them willing
(32:14):
to relinquish it.
And she's basically saying likethat's what they're trying to do
is to convince people.
That slavery is bad.
Now the now that this method mayin conjunction with other causes
have an influence to bringslavery to an end is not denied,
but it is believed that it isthe least calculated to do the
good, and that it involves thegreatest evils.
(32:34):
It is the maxim then ofexperience that when men are to
be turned from evils and broughtto repent and reform, those only
should interfere who are mostloved and respected, and who
have the best right to approachthe offender.
Mandy (32:49):
Oh, so not women?
Is that what you said?
katy (32:52):
Yes.
To paraphrase, it's like theonly, if you have a problem
with, with what someone's doingin her experience, the only
people who that person's goingto listen to are the people
closest to them.
And if they do it in like theleast intense way,
Mandy (33:09):
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
It's a very polite
katy (33:15):
so, oh, so.
Mandy (33:16):
mean, it just
katy (33:17):
Politics of respectability.
Mandy (33:18):
yes.
The respectability bullshit.
Yeah.
That there's a right way and awrong way to
katy (33:23):
Oh, here's another way that they're wrong.
So like a, it's not your placeto say anything to these people,
is her first reason.
Her second reason.
It is another maximum ofexperience that such dealings
with the airing should be inprivate, not in public.
The moment a man is publiclyrebuked, shame, anger, and pride
of opinion all combined to makehim defend his practice and
(33:44):
refuse either to own himselfwrong or deceased from his evil
ways.
Mandy (33:48):
Mm-hmm.
katy (33:48):
Okay, so don't embarrass them.
Yeah.
Mandy (33:51):
Uhhuh,
katy (33:52):
Some someone close to them needs to privately, quietly, and
over time maybe hint at howslavery is bad,
Mandy (34:00):
Mm-hmm.
katy (34:01):
is her preferred approach.
The abolitionists have violatedall these laws of mind and of
experience in dealing with theirsouthern brethren.
They have not approached themwith the spirit of love,
courtesy, and forbearance.
I just tasted bile in my mouth.
They are not the persons whowould be regarded by the South
as having any right to interferein dealing with their breathren.
Two, they have not tried silent,retired private measures.
(34:23):
It has been public denunciationof crime and shame in newspapers
addressed, as it were tobystanders in order to arouse
the guilty.
Mandy (34:30):
I mean, this just reminds me so much of how churches have
approached sexual abusers intheir midst
katy (34:37):
Oh,
Mandy (34:37):
decades.
Like, we're just going to keepthis on the down though in
private, not make it a publicthing.
That always works well.
That's real protective of thevulnerable populations for sure.
katy (34:51):
I, oh my God.
And I think it's, it's comingfrom, I actually do wanna ask
you like what elements of this,like, because we're living in
such a reactionary time, likewhat elements of this do.
Resonate too.
Like yeah, the, there's like,when you hear people.
Like there's conversations rightnow about like, yeah, men are
(35:14):
feeling so dis, like white menare feeling like, oh, they're
under attack.
It's like very similar argumentsthat I think are being made
about like now.
Even like how to call in, callout and, and that's maybe like a
blanket statement, but I thinkwhat I have a problem with isn't
that someone would say, well,I'm gonna try this other
strategy.
Good.
All hands on deck.
(35:34):
Great.
You know.
It's that it should only be thisway.
And the, the bigger problem Ihave is that they're starting
their clock now.
Like, don't, you're raising sucha ruckus, like give me time
starting now when it's like,well, this problem has been
going on for checks clock 300years, so I, and these people,
(35:57):
this movement has been going on.
And at what point do you say,yeah, we get to.
Raise a ruckus.
You know, that's, it's, it's,and I, so whenever people are
urging politeness or likeslowness or quietness, I always
think like, what clock are youon?
When do you think this problemstarted and how long do you
(36:21):
think these other people haveknown that it's wrong forever,
actually.
So that is what taps my head.
I think the most about it is,it's just so convenient.
It's the timing that'sconvenient to her.
Certainly not to all the peoplewho've been experiencing it and
all the generations of peoplewho've been fighting it.
Mandy (36:38):
Mm-hmm.
katy (36:38):
annoying.
Mandy (36:39):
Mm-hmm.
katy (36:40):
Another thing it makes me think of Martin Luther King's
letter from a Birmingham jail.
When he talks about the whitemoderates being the problem,
he's like, God damn, come on.
Mandy (36:48):
Mm-hmm.
katy (36:49):
I'm sure he didn't say that.
That's not a direct quote.
That's my quote.
Mandy (36:52):
Yep.
Yep.
katy (36:53):
My paraphrasing.
All right.
Last little section here.
But suppose the abolitionistssucceed not only in making
northern men abolitionists, butalso in sending a portion of
light into the south, such as toform a body of abolitionists
there also, what is the thingthat is to be done to end
slavery at the south?
It is to alter the laws.
And to do this, a small minoritymust be, get a long, bitter,
terrible conflict with apowerful and exasperated
(37:13):
majority.
How will the exasperatedmajority act according to the
known laws of mind and ofexperience instead of lessening
the evils of slavery?
They will increase them.
They will make laws so unjustand oppressive, not only to
slaves, but to theirabolitionist advocates, that by
degrees such men will withdrawfrom their bounds.
Then the numerical proportion ofwhites will decrease, and the
cruelty and unrestrainedwickedness of the system will
increase till a period willcome.
(37:34):
When the physical power will beso much with the blacks, their
sense of suffering.
So increase the volcano, willburst, insurrection, and serve
our wars will begin, ugh.
Like as if insurrection isunconscionable to her.
Like, are you.
Mandy (37:48):
Yeah,
katy (37:49):
Are you outta your mind?
That's me.
Mandy (37:51):
yeah.
katy (37:51):
Yeah.
Mandy (37:52):
only are you going about it the wrong way, but now she's
blaming them for making thingsworse.
katy (37:58):
Yeah.
Oh, here's the last little bit.
Oh, the countless horrors ofsuch a day.
Will the tears of insurrectionsweep over the south and no
northern and western blood beshed?
This is no picture of fancydangers, which are not near.
The day has come when alreadythe feelings are so excited on
both sides that I've heardintelligent men, good men,
benevolent and pious men inmoments of excitement to clear
themselves, ready to take up thesword.
Some for the defense of themaster, some for the protection
(38:20):
of the right of the slave, likeshe's clearly talking about.
Right before the Civil War.
Right.
But I, it's this idea that like,okay, the, the massive horrors,
the, the family separation, therapes, the abuse, the lynchings,
the murder, all of that is, isfine.
Like, that's, that's, yes, it'sevil, but we can keep doing that
(38:41):
and just take as long as we needto, to quietly suggest and hint
at how that might not be good.
But how very dare people.
Decide to physically make peoplestop abusing them?
Mandy (38:56):
Yeah,
katy (38:57):
No,
Mandy (38:58):
I thought you were talking about present day when
katy (39:00):
I mean,
Mandy (39:01):
the family
katy (39:01):
it's,
Mandy (39:03):
the lynching and the whatever.
I'm like, oh yeah,
katy (39:06):
I, I actually am,
Mandy (39:08):
or
katy (39:09):
Right.
No, I personally am non-violent.
I appreciate non-violence, butthat doesn't mean.
You there isn't violence likethe nonviolent movement of the
civil Rights movement?
Absolutely.
Raise the stakes and turned upthe heat and were agitating.
That was the point, was toagitate and reveal the depths of
(39:30):
disparity that were happening.
Like, that's it.
So this to me, it's not likeeither, you know, you go out and
I, I actually can understand therationale behind that, you know,
to take up arms.
But it, it's not either that oryou just do what Catherine is
suggesting, which is like, oh,hello cousin, if you have a
moment.
Ever talk about why baby, thisisn't great.
(39:52):
You know, let me know.
I'm here to talk to you again.
If she wants to do that, fine.
But calling out the grimkesisters or calling out people
who are like, enough, enoughthis.
We're done.
This is wrong.
That, that I have a problemwith.
And so knowing that she's thislike foundational ideological
footprint on education,
Mandy (40:13):
Mm-hmm.
katy (40:14):
it's helpful to look at how she thought about things.
As a way into the broadersystems that we're going to
learn about next week and reallydive into boarding schools and
what was happening for schoolsof immigrant children, and just
understanding, again, theweaponization of motherhood and
mothering and nurturing as thesethings that you women are quote,
(40:35):
uniquely situated to do, andwhite Christian women in
particular, that we are going tokeep unpacking.
Mandy (40:42):
Hmm.
interesting.
katy (40:45):
Thanks.
Mandy (40:46):
Okay.
Bring that discussion up foryour family dinners.
katy (40:51):
Yeah, there you go.
Mandy (40:53):
We'll
katy (40:53):
They, maybe that's good homework.
Yeah.
Is like one, one moment wherewe're not polite, you know, see
what happens.
Ha ha.
We might not ever have a podcastagain.
We'll see.
Yeah.
I hope you're well.
I'll talk to you soon.
Mandy (41:08):
talk to you guys soon.
Bye.
katy (41:10):
Bye.
Okay.
Hi, this is Mandy Griffin.
(00:01):
And I'm Katie Swalwell, andwelcome to our Dirty Laundry,
stories of white ladies making amess of things and how we need
to clean up our act.
Mandy (00:15):
Hi everybody.
katy (00:17):
Hi, happy Thanksgiving, although I say that, and then
that immediately lodges thisepisode in a very specific time
stamp, right?
Mandy (00:28):
time that we are doing it.
So if you're listening to thislater, months later, whenever
later,
katy (00:35):
On repeat to get away from your family in a closet or like
locked in a room somewhere.
That's fine.
We see you.
Yes.
I What are you feelingespecially grateful for?
I know that's like, we've doneepisodes in the past about the
history of Thanksgiving and nowfucked up it is in what the
history actually is, but I dolike the idea of gratitude.
(00:55):
I think that's really important.
So that sliver of this holidayat least, is there anything
you're feeling grateful for?
Mandy (01:03):
I think the first thing that I always feel grateful for,
and probably just'cause I seethe opposite so much in every
day of what I do, is just for.
Being healthy and
katy (01:13):
Yeah,
Mandy (01:14):
me being because I also know how quickly that can
change.
And
katy (01:19):
right.
Mandy (01:20):
every day that, you know, I think you are in a healthy
body, an able body like issomething that you should be
grateful for.
'cause that Go away.
katy (01:31):
I mean, it will go away.
Yeah.
It's just a matter of time andcircumstance.
I, whenever I have been, youknow, like how you have the flu
or you're hungover or whateverit is, and you're like, God,
when I feel better, I'm going tojust thank God every day for my
health.
And then that lasts like eighthours and then you go back to
just living your life and youforget to be grateful for that.
(01:51):
So I think that's really good.
Mandy (01:53):
I hate having a sore throat so much.
It's like one of my leastfavorite symptoms is when you
can't like breathe or swallowwithout intense pain.
katy (02:01):
Yeah.
Mandy (02:02):
it's'cause I had strep so much in high school like junior
high, I mean all throughout mychildhood.
'cause I had my tonsils outtwice'cause I got strep so much
and they grew
katy (02:10):
Wait, what?
Mandy (02:11):
this
katy (02:11):
What?
Mandy (02:12):
Yeah.
katy (02:12):
I have so many questions.
Okay.
What?
Mandy (02:15):
I
katy (02:16):
a possibility.
Mandy (02:17):
Yeah.
katy (02:18):
No.
Mandy (02:18):
if you get'em out super young, because I had my tonsils
out before I was two years
katy (02:22):
They grow back.
Mandy (02:24):
much, because I had a mountain I was so young.
If there's any tissue leftthere, they can grow back and
mine back
katy (02:31):
Okay.
I know like hair grows, buthair's dead and like nails.
But is there any other part ofour body if removed?
Just can regenerate like that?
Mandy (02:40):
I don't know if can regenerate or if you can just
subsist off of not having awhole thing.
'cause they can take part ofyour liver out
katy (02:47):
Oh, sure.
I know like you take yourappendix out, whatever, but
like, I've never heard aboutsomething where like, oh, I got
my appendix removed and then Ihad to get it removed 10 years
later.
Mandy (02:55):
back,
katy (02:56):
No.
Mandy (02:57):
Yeah.
I don't know.
I don't, not that I
katy (02:59):
Or what is like Lorena Bobbitt's like, ah, shoot, it
grew back.
Mandy (03:04):
Men wish,
katy (03:05):
Yeah.
That is so
Mandy (03:06):
grow back bigger
katy (03:08):
fascinating.
Oh my God.
Yeah.
Oh, there'd be so muchexperimenting.
There's just no question aboutit.
That is fascinating.
Well, yeah.
Mandy (03:15):
I do have a sore throat, I always think like, when this
goes away.
katy (03:19):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (03:19):
be grateful and of course like you do forget, but I will
katy (03:22):
Yeah.
Mandy (03:22):
every once in a while, swallow no pain.
I'm like, oh, I'm so
katy (03:26):
You do a little skip down the hallway.
It's so great.
It is so funny.
It is hard to sometimes begrateful for the absence of
something.
It's, at least for me, it'sprobably easier to be grateful
for the things that are present,you know?
But both are good things toacknowledge.
Mandy (03:43):
About you?
katy (03:45):
what am I grateful for?
Well, I, I, we've been havinglike a roller coaster.
Parenting time, just, you know,the kids are five and eight and
our 5-year-old is like, I don'tthink there's a name.
You know how it's like terribletwos, teenagers, something is
like a lot of my friends whohave five year-old boys are just
(04:06):
like, what is this?
Like, there's something that isfrustrating and hard, so I feel
grateful that we're like ridingthrough that storm.
I think with love and integrity.
And then this afternoon, what,like, I, I am always grateful
when we have even like 20minutes of time where the kids
(04:27):
are happy together and playingtogether, and everyone's like in
a good mood, you know?
And any moment the shoe is gonnadrop and someone's going to
like, either accidentally slaminto each other and then
someone's crying or purposefullyslam into each other and then
somebody's crying, you know, itjust, it's a very fragile piece
it feels like.
And so they were just having.
(04:47):
The time of their lives, likeplaying fashion show and
dancing, and it was so sweet andI was so happy and it was really
great.
So I'm grateful for the momentswhen my children are getting
along and not whining orpretending to be incapable of
doing something that they'revery capable of doing, which is
my pet peeve.
Mandy (05:08):
Yep.
I feel like there's a lot ofthose transitions.
Five is like a transitional agefrom being home, like being
totally
katy (05:15):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (05:16):
on your family, like still being very insulated and
then they go to school aroundthat time I
katy (05:23):
Yeah.
Mandy (05:23):
they're, you know, learning all this stuff that
helps them communicate, but alsoto learn
katy (05:28):
Oh my gosh.
Mandy (05:30):
And I think that that.
katy (05:31):
It's huge.
Mandy (05:32):
a really
katy (05:33):
Okay.
This is actually a perfect segueto what we're talking about
today.
And I will tell one funny storybefore we transition fully, but
Bo is learning to read and writeand, and he's clearly that skill
is like exploding for him.
And so I think that's actuallypart of why he is fussy lately.
Like when there's those, I can'tremember what they're called,
like Wonder Weeks or somethingwhen they're babies, when it's
(05:55):
like, oh, is your baby reallyfussy?
They're about to level up.
Like they're about to walk orthey're about to talk or
something.
Like, why are they suchassholes?
It's like, oh, don't worry, it'snot forever.
You know?
And so I think that's what'sgoing on because he's really,
really into it.
And the other day I like verymuch lost my temper was just
like, kind of like late into himabout something in the morning
(06:17):
before we went to church andwe're sitting there.
He, his sister, my daughter wentto the little class and he was
not gonna go because I did nottrust what he was, how he was
gonna behave.
And he chose to stay with meanyway.
And so I was writing sentencesfor him to read, like, the bird
is mad, or whatever, you know,and he was sounding them out for
(06:38):
me and he was really into it andexcited.
Just was kind of keeping himbusy during the service.
And then I said, do you wannawrite a sentence for me?
And he got really excited and hewrote it and then very
sheepishly handed it to me andit said, I hate mom spelled
correctly and properpunctuation.
So,
Mandy (06:57):
wow.
katy (06:58):
good job, bud.
That I, I was like, well, okay.
And I wrote back, I am sorry.
I don't like to fight, and hesounded that out and read it and
then crossed out.
I hate mom and wrote a newsentence that said, I am sorry
too.
It was just like reallypowerful.
The literacy is amazing.
(07:19):
Okay, why that is a segue isbecause the woman who is
credited with a like hugeinfluence on.
Primary education and reallyjust education in the United
States.
That's the focus is how thatwe're talking about in this
(07:40):
season, the weaponization ofmotherhood and the connection to
education and classrooms asextensions of the home where
white women are mothering otherpeople's children is just very.
Tight, and this woman is one ofthe like originators of that
relationship and gluing it intoplace.
And her name is CatherineBeecher.
Mandy (08:02):
Oh, I know that name.
katy (08:03):
Okay.
That's great.
Mandy (08:05):
Mm-hmm.
katy (08:05):
I, it sounded like vaguely familiar to me, but there she's
definitely connected to peoplethat we know for sure.
Mandy (08:11):
Yeah,
katy (08:12):
she's born in East Hampton, New York in 1800, the
oldest of nine children.
Her parents are Rock Santa Foot,which to me is like a super cool
name.
That does not sound like.
Mandy (08:26):
sort of like, you know, like rock star or
katy (08:29):
Yeah,
Mandy (08:29):
something like,
katy (08:30):
someone born in like 1780, you know, you wouldn't expect
that.
Roxanna Foot and Lyman Beecher,which is like a very nerdy name.
So here's like Hot Roxanna,married to Nerd Lyman but he's
this famous MinisterPresbyterian minister.
And they have all these kids.
The, when she, when Catherine isyoung, the family moves to
(08:51):
Connecticut, Litchfield,Connecticut, and that's where
she attends the LitchfieldFemale Academy.
We're going to dive into somefamily trauma because that all
of these people have that.
I know you're shocked.
She's 16 and her mother dies,and so she has eight kids to
take care of, and she becomeslike the matric of this family a
(09:13):
year later.
Her dad remarries.
I'm sure that's interesting thatthere's probably a lot of
dynamic there that did not getrecorded for the history books.
But if you are a 16-year-old andyou've been raising eight kids
for a year and then your dadremarries, like, I can imagine
that being a really complicatedthing like a year later, you
know,
Mandy (09:32):
Mm-hmm.
katy (09:33):
then they Lyman and his new wife, Harriet Porter, have
three sons and a daughter.
Their daughter is HarrietBeecher Sau.
She's the author of Uncle Tom'sCabin, like the famous author,
and we've talked, right, we'vetalked about her before in the
context of our season on slaveryand how white, a lot of white
(09:53):
women abolitionists were stillvery problematic in a lot of
ways, and she is probably themost famous example of that.
She, Catherine has other famoussiblings, half siblings,
Isabella Beecher Hooker, asuffrage leader who I was diving
into her and she's very.
White women suffrage from ourseason on suffrage, like friends
with Elizabeth Katy Stanton andSusan B.
(10:14):
Anthony in that whole scene.
Henry Ward Beecher, who's afamous pastor, and very
outspoken abolitionist and asupporter of temperance and
women's suffrage, like a verypopular, I picture them kind of
as like a weirdly likePresbyterian.
19th Century Kardashian family,like all of them are famous for
(10:36):
kind of similar things, youknow, like, in this case, it's
in influencer read with if weconsider like temperance and
suffrage and whatever.
So she's loves to write, lovesto read.
She gets poems published by thetime that she's in her teens
like in national magazines inher early twenties, she gets
(10:56):
engaged to a math professor atYale and his name is Alexander
Fisher.
The site that I was pulling thisfrom is the National Women's
History Museum.
Most of this information and itvery cryptically says she had
doubts about their union.
Mandy (11:12):
Hmm.
katy (11:13):
What is that all about?
Why?
I really just want hot Gosshistory.
Like,
Mandy (11:21):
I wish
katy (11:22):
that's it.
Mandy (11:22):
could go back and just find all
katy (11:24):
Oh, like girl, why?
Tell me He dies in a shipwreckand then she never gets married.
Mandy (11:32):
Oh hmm.
katy (11:33):
Another one of those who has a lot of thoughts about how
to raise children.
Mandy (11:37):
But
katy (11:38):
Ever having children of her own
Mandy (11:40):
raising children?
katy (11:41):
See, beginning of this conversation where
Mandy (11:44):
Mm-hmm.
katy (11:44):
so much that happens when you live with young children and
have to deal with them all thetime.
Mandy (11:50):
Yeah.
katy (11:50):
They're glorious little monsters.
Okay.
In 1823, Catherine and hersister Mary founded the Hartford
Female Seminary.
And at the time there wereschools for girls.
There weren't, as we weretalking about in the last
episode, there weren't likepublic schools the way we think
of them at this time.
But if you had money and youwere a white girl, like maybe
(12:11):
you would go and you would studylike languages and the arts, you
know, it was kind of like a,like finishing school in sort
of.
Away, you know, like become alady.
But this school, Mary andKatherine decided to have all
subjects available to girls,which was not the norm.
And she was really into pe.
(12:33):
So
Mandy (12:34):
mean, I'm beginning to wonder why she didn't
katy (12:36):
I might, there might have been doubts.
Mandy (12:38):
doubts?
katy (12:39):
So she is really into, I don't know that I, I, this word
we don't hear enough anymorecalisthenics, but I picture
where you're just like doingjumping jacks and you're like,
you know, doing all the poses inlines.
In a field.
But here's, I, there just like alot of people that we learn
about, like there are thingsthat I admire or appreciate and
(13:02):
her refusal to just have womeneducated about these certain
topics and the, at the timethere was.
If there were beliefs frommedical doctors that women
shouldn't ride bikes becausethen they would never be able to
have children, or they shouldn'texert themselves in any way
because they will becomehysterical.
And she was like, that'sgarbage.
Girls are going to, you know,exercise like that's good for
(13:26):
their health.
Okay.
Then like about 10 years later,she moves west to Ohio and her
father had become president ofLane Theological Seminary, which
was in Cincinnati.
And it's like a progressive,Christian progressive, like,
let's put that in quotes.
'cause that's a very.
Sliding term of course, but sheopens another school, the
(13:46):
Western Female Institute.
She also worked on the McGuffeyreaders.
And we're gonna talk a lot moreabout McGuffey readers in a
feature mini.
So can you picture what thoseare, like
Mandy (13:57):
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's
katy (13:58):
old timey books
Mandy (14:00):
mm-hmm.
katy (14:01):
that it's like.
Mandy (14:02):
about them being some, maybe some episodes
katy (14:04):
I am sure we have.
They're, they're really like,like canonically messed up, but
that was, you know, veryChristian and like all of that.
She is then becomes like alecturer writer and she's
writing all these books about.
Women, and here are some of thetitles.
A Treatise on Domestic Economy,the Duty of American Women to
(14:26):
Their Country, the DomesticReceipt Book.
And all of these books arebasically preaching, like in
many ways she is kind of apreacher, you know, like her
father.
She's focused on what women'srole is as mothers and
educators.
So those to her are absolutely.
Combined like that is like youcannot take those apart and that
(14:47):
their primary job is to raisethe next generation of
Democratic citizens, little dDemocratic.
And so she is very, it's, it'sone of those, like we've talked
about this before, where you,you know, she has these more
progressive ideas to accomplisha very conservative goal.
Mandy (15:08):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
katy (15:10):
Just the, like there are clear gender roles, very, very
clear.
Mandy (15:14):
same.
just the playing field.
Widens a little
katy (15:19):
Right, right.
Like I want them to be educatedabout everything in order to
fulfill this very narrowconcrete role really well.
Right, exactly.
She's preaching self-sacrifice,modesty, frugality et cetera.
Here is a quote from her in1846.
She says, soon in all parts ofour country, in each neglected
village or new settlement, theChristian female teacher will
(15:42):
quietly take her stationcollecting the ignorant children
around her.
Teaching them habits of neatnessorder and thrift opening the
book of Knowledge, inspiring theprinciples of morality and
awakening, the hope ofimmortality.
So just from that one quote,where might we be concerned
about white supremacy?
(16:04):
Like where,
Mandy (16:06):
mean, it's, the very premise is that she's taking
these like little heathens.
katy (16:12):
yes.
Mandy (16:12):
And turning them into domesticated animals, basically.
katy (16:16):
Yes.
Mandy (16:16):
Yeah.
Uhhuh,
katy (16:18):
Keep in.
This is that quote.
Oh, go ahead.
Mandy (16:20):
no, no.
I was just gonna say also likewhose idea of like complete
operating person are we takinghere?
Like how does that get decided?
katy (16:32):
No, this quote really goes into so much.
We're gonna talk in the next fewepisodes about the boarding
schools that indigenous childrenwere sent to.
And this, this is like the heartof that idea, which is neatness
order and thrift the habits forthat.
Well, like whose habits andwhose standards of that or
collecting the ignorantchildren.
Children who are ignorant ofwhat Christianity.
(16:53):
Well, if you aren't Christianwho care, you know, like it's,
it's very, eurocentric veryself, like the sense that we
have the secret sauce
Mandy (17:04):
Okay.
katy (17:04):
we are defining what it means to be a good American
citizen that is steeped inwhiteness and Christianity and
you know, European Americanness.
And so that's, that's what we'retrying to impart to you.
Poor, pitiful people who don'thave access to that.
So it's like educational accessthat is driven by pity and a
(17:27):
belief that people should try toassimilate as much as they can.
Right.
Mandy (17:31):
Yeah.
And Hierarchy of what's correct
katy (17:34):
for sure.
Mandy (17:34):
is, yeah.
katy (17:35):
Yes, she, and of course this is also like just before
the Civil War, the 1840s ismassive settlement and massive
expansion like.
A lot of genocide happening inthe United States as there's
displacement of indigenouspeople.
So she's, you know, she wasn'tvery far west.
We're talking Ohio.
(17:56):
But that's, she's part of thismovement.
In 1852, she found the AmericanWomen's Educational Association,
and that organization isintended to prepare teachers to
move further on the frontier tobuild schools.
So she's very intentional abouthaving.
White women be part of thesettlement project and having
(18:18):
motherhood and education be partof what is going to civilize the
West in the United States.
And again, we are, we're gonnaunpack that quite a bit more.
In the 1860s and seventiesagain, according to the National
Women's History Museum, she goesback to teaching in different
ways.
She and her half sister HarryBeecher au write a book together
(18:40):
called The American Woman'sHome.
And here's where it'sinteresting.
So there were two key issuesthat she actually took very
different stances than.
Her family and they're two bigones, suffrage and slavery.
So yeah, here we go.
So she actually opposes women'ssuffrage.
And in our suffrage season we,we unpacked why there were women
(19:03):
who believed in educating womenand would be public speakers
themselves who were advocatingagainst women having a public.
Role, right?
Like that.
That's just not their, they havethis other role in a democracy.
It is to prepare the nextgeneration through educating
children, and that is their roleand that is their power.
And they should not be involvedin this other sphere because
(19:25):
that's the man's sphere, manosphere, the original, and that
is not their.
Business really like the waythat women are powerful is in
the home and influencingchildren, and so that's where we
should focus.
Mandy (19:42):
the good old days of when we recorded those episodes?
And I naively thought that thatwas an attitude of the past.
katy (19:51):
That was going away.
Mandy (19:53):
Yeah, it was like
katy (19:54):
This is so sweet.
Mandy (19:55):
how people actually thought anymore, and come to
find out, no, people were justmore quiet about it then, but
apparently there's lots of womenwho still hold those values, I
katy (20:09):
It.
Mandy (20:09):
you
katy (20:10):
It,
Mandy (20:10):
that.
katy (20:10):
yeah.
Right.
It is.
It is.
So like I do want to value thepower of what it means to raise
children.
Like that is an important,valuable job.
That deserves respect andsupport and resources.
Mandy (20:27):
to
katy (20:27):
I
Mandy (20:28):
only do that.
katy (20:29):
an ov Exactly.
Because you have a uterus, anovaries like that makes no sense
to me at all.
Mandy (20:36):
you don't need any role in decision making or you know.
Leadership or anything becauseof that.
That's where, that's where itgets me to like, I mean, we've
katy (20:45):
No.
Mandy (20:45):
about this so many times.
Like I, I love homemakingthings.
I love
katy (20:51):
you are good at it.
Like I, I can actually have apolitical stance that is also
masking my absolute inability todo these things too.
So I, I take you more seriouslybecause you're not trying to
hide anything.
You are actually really good atall that stuff.
Mandy (21:05):
Yeah, I like all of it.
I just don't see in what worldanyone thinks that that means
katy (21:11):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (21:12):
fucking vote, or like, I just don't, it doesn't, it does
not compute in my brain.
But anyway,
katy (21:19):
no.
Or that I'm supposed to entrustmy wellbeing to like a male
representative of my family.
No thank you.
Mandy (21:25):
Mm-hmm.
katy (21:27):
Okay.
So here I'm gonna read someexcerpts of things that she
wrote and I will pause forreaction.
You ready?
Okay.
So this is part of her,explanations of the role of
women as teachers.
So again, when we're thinkingabout this season and the way
that white women weaponizemotherhood, and one of the way
they ways they do that isthrough becoming teachers and
(21:51):
the profession of teachers.
And here, I, I really wannathink, like, ask you to situate,
like listen to what I'm gonnaread you knowing what's
happening in.
Two professions right now thatare majority female.
Thinking about your role as aphysician's assistant, RNs, and
the recent legislation, what isit, legislation or executive
(22:13):
orders or what is it to Deproprofessionalize.
Mandy (22:15):
we can.
Get into the details of it.
I mean, so part of it is, isthat actually the law didn't
necessarily change.
It's like an old law back inlike the 1990s, and it says
something about likeprofessional careers and it has
things listed like you know,attorneys, medical doctors,
(22:38):
whatever.
But it says.
but are not limited to and listthose professions.
Things like nursing, PAs socialworkers.
They were never actually listedin the law.
They were just kind of groupedinto that are not limited to
phrase and that was taken out.
Anything that's not specificallylisted in that law is now no
(23:00):
longer considered a professionaldegree.
And why that matters is morebecause of how the funding.
Of education happens and howpeople can take out loans to pay
for their education.
And if you are under aprofessional designation, you
could take out higher loanamounts
katy (23:19):
Yes.
Mandy (23:19):
and now you cannot, which will severely impact the people
who can go
katy (23:24):
Yes.
Mandy (23:25):
and then cause huge shortages in areas that already
have huge shortages.
And it's just like this wholedownstream effect that's
horrific, but.
katy (23:34):
And not for nothing.
The professions that were justdepro professionalized by this
language shift
Mandy (23:41):
Are
katy (23:41):
are majority women.
Right.
And so that, that's part ofthis.
So, so the argument, like myfield is education.
I was an education professor, Iwas a classroom teacher.
And that's a longstandingargument in the field is whether
teaching is a profession.
And I would argue absolutely itis like it, there's no doubt in
my mind.
But be, it's like even aquestion in large part because
(24:03):
it's a feminized workforce.
And so that's something to keepin mind too.
And the fact, as we talked aboutlast week, that increasingly it
be, it's becoming an even morewhite woman teaching,
Mandy (24:16):
Mm-hmm.
katy (24:16):
but as a career, as a profession.
Mandy (24:18):
Mm-hmm.
katy (24:19):
here's Catherine Beecher.
So.
Again, pausing for yourthoughts.
It is to mothers and to teachersthat the world is to look for
the character, which is to be instamped on each succeeding
generation.
For it is to them that the greatbusiness of education is almost
exclusively committed, and willit not appear by examination
that neither mothers norteachers have ever been properly
(24:39):
educated for their profession?
What is the profession of awoman?
Mandy (24:45):
Hm.
katy (24:45):
It is it not to form immortal minds and to watch to
nurse to rear the bodily system.
So fearfully and wonderfullymade and upon the order and
regulation of which the healthand wellbeing of mind so greatly
depends.
Is it not the business, theprofession of the woman to guard
the health and form?
The physical habits of the youngand is, is not the cradle of
(25:06):
infancy and the chamber ofsickness sacred to woman alone,
and ought she not to know atleast some of the general
principles of that perfect andwonderful piece of mechanism
committed to her preservationand care.
Mandy (25:18):
Yeah, I
katy (25:18):
Yeah.
Mandy (25:18):
have like two thoughts during that.
Like one is just like, oh, do wehave to like, make everything
fit into this capitalistic worldthat we
katy (25:27):
Oh.
Mandy (25:28):
Do all of our daily activities have to be termed
some sort of job or professionor something that, you
katy (25:36):
Mm
Mandy (25:37):
you, you have to spend your time and money and get paid
for or
katy (25:40):
hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (25:59):
and the learning of children as women do.
That whole line of things aboutit being women's work, I just
cannot ever get behind.
katy (26:09):
No.
Mandy (26:09):
that's because I also have like good men in my life.
Maybe
katy (26:13):
Right.
Right.
Mandy (26:14):
good men in their lives,
katy (26:16):
Hmm.
Mandy (26:17):
never fathom like a male.
That could be such a positiveimpact on children.
katy (26:24):
That's super interesting.
Or, or like no one that theytrusted.
To still give them space andpower and respect if the women
weren't doing this care.
Mandy (26:39):
Mm-hmm.
katy (26:39):
know what I'm saying?
Like if I leave what has beenkind of socially acceptable as
my powerful role will, I stillhave.
Like, will the men in my lifestill value?
Right, right.
I, of course, we always havethis as a caveat too.
There are people who are neitherman or woman and always have
been and always will be.
So that's all like right away isalso a question.
(27:00):
But what I thought was sointeresting, especially given
the news this week of thatDeprofessionalization, was how
she's linking teaching motheringand nursing.
Together.
Mandy (27:11):
Mm-hmm.
katy (27:12):
then it made me think of Elizabeth Gillespie Mcgras book
and the, the like intimatespaces, I think she called it
where it was social work andlike when kids were born in the
hospital, like all these momentsthat women had these jobs where
they were building whitesupremacist systems in those
moments.
And I was like, Ugh.
(27:32):
Here it is.
Mandy (27:33):
Yep.
katy (27:33):
Here's the last little part that she writes.
If all females were not onlywell educated themselves, but
were prepared to communicate inan easy manner, their stores of
knowledge to others, if they notonly knew how to regulate their
own minds, tempers and habits,but how to affect improvements
in those around them.
The face of society would bespeedily changed.
The time may come when the worldwill look back with wonder to
behold how much time and efforthave been given to the mere
(27:56):
cultivation of memory, and howlittle mankind have been aware
of what every teacher, parent,and friend could accomplish.
The social, immortal, moralcharacter of those with whom
they are surrounded.
Mandy (28:06):
Hmm.
katy (28:08):
The question of whose morals and to what ends you're
trying to shape society becomevery, very, very important.
If that's your stance, right?
Mandy (28:19):
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
katy (28:21):
So here I move to her position on slavery as an
example of.
That molding that she isadvocating for and that, you
know, there's teachers beingprepared and she's opening these
schools that become modelschools.
So she wrote this essay onslavery and abolitionism in
reference to the Duty ofAmerican females.
(28:41):
And it's a response to a lecturetour from the Grimke sisters,
Angelina and Sarah Grimke, who,who were like legit.
Like anti-racist abolitionists,and were speaking at the time to
mixed gender audiences, gasp andlike just, you know, the
proverbial balls to the wall.
(29:01):
Okay.
So Catherine Beecher writes aresponse to this lecture and she
writes it as if she's writing aletter, but it was meant to be
published, you know, foreveryone to read.
So here we go.
Okay, my dear friend.
She begins.
The object I have in view is topresent some reasons why it
(29:22):
seems unwise and in expedientfor ladies of the non-live
holding states to unitethemselves in abolition
societies.
I know not where to look fornorthern Christians who would
deny that every slave holder isbound to treat his slaves
exactly as he would claim thathis own children ought to be
treated in similarcircumstances.
That the holding of our fellowmen is property or the
(29:42):
withholding any of the rights offreedom for mere purposes of
gain.
Is a sin and ought to beimmediately abandoned, and that
where the laws are such that aslave holder cannot legally
emancipate his slaves withoutthrowing them into worse
bondage.
He's bound to use all hisinfluence to alter those laws,
and in the meantime, to treathis slaves as nearly as he can,
as if they were free.
I do not suppose there's oneperson in a thousand in the
(30:04):
north who would dissent fromthese principles.
Catherine, I beg to differinterjecting, like, I think
there are actually, they wouldonly differ in the use of terms
and call this doctrine ofgradual emancipation.
Well, abolitionists would callit the doctrine of immediate
emancipation.
So she's saying yes, yes.
Everyone agrees slavery is bad.
Mandy (30:26):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Which, no, first
katy (30:28):
No.
Yeah, a no.
As the Women of the South inElizabeth Gillespie's Mcgras
book knew very well that like,ha ha, wait till it gets to the
north.
You'll see just how likesuperficial this is, right?
But she's saying the way thatthey are going about it is
wrong.
Okay?
And here's her reasoning why thedistinctive peculiarity of the
(30:52):
Abolition Society is this.
It is a voluntary association inone section of the country
designed to awaken publicsentiment against a moral evil
existing in another section ofthe country.
Like, yes, I get it, I guess,but also that's.
Mandy (31:07):
your business?
Is that what she's saying?
katy (31:10):
A little bit, and I think it's the, like, it's this
narrative that the north isdisconnected from slavery,
Mandy (31:16):
Mm-hmm.
katy (31:17):
it's just in the south.
It's so frustrating becausethat's just not the history of
it.
Like people were enslaved in thenorth for a really long time,
and
Mandy (31:25):
And
katy (31:25):
businesses, northern institutions, there's like, oh
my gosh.
Mandy (31:28):
Yeah.
Yeah.
katy (31:29):
Okay.
So already she's like, we aregood and they are bad.
Okay.
The principle object of theGrimke sisters proposed to her,
I suppose, is to present facts,arguments, and persuasions to
influence Northern ladies toenroll themselves As members of
this association, I willtherefore proceed to present
some of the reasons which may bebrought against such a measure
as the one you would urge.
The position that I would aim toestablish is that the method
(31:52):
taken by the abolition.
Abolitionist is the one thataccording to the laws of mind
and past experience is leastlikely to bring about the
results they aim to accomplish.
It's like telling them likeyour, it's going to backfire.
Okay?
The general statement is this,the object to be accomplished is
first to convince a certaincommunity that they're in the
practice of a great sin, andsecondly, to make them willing
(32:14):
to relinquish it.
And she's basically saying likethat's what they're trying to do
is to convince people.
That slavery is bad.
Now the now that this method mayin conjunction with other causes
have an influence to bringslavery to an end is not denied,
but it is believed that it isthe least calculated to do the
good, and that it involves thegreatest evils.
(32:34):
It is the maxim then ofexperience that when men are to
be turned from evils and broughtto repent and reform, those only
should interfere who are mostloved and respected, and who
have the best right to approachthe offender.
Mandy (32:49):
Oh, so not women?
Is that what you said?
katy (32:52):
Yes.
To paraphrase, it's like theonly, if you have a problem
with, with what someone's doingin her experience, the only
people who that person's goingto listen to are the people
closest to them.
And if they do it in like theleast intense way,
Mandy (33:09):
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
It's a very polite
katy (33:15):
so, oh, so.
Mandy (33:16):
mean, it just
katy (33:17):
Politics of respectability.
Mandy (33:18):
yes.
The respectability bullshit.
Yeah.
That there's a right way and awrong way to
katy (33:23):
Oh, here's another way that they're wrong.
So like a, it's not your placeto say anything to these people,
is her first reason.
Her second reason.
It is another maximum ofexperience that such dealings
with the airing should be inprivate, not in public.
The moment a man is publiclyrebuked, shame, anger, and pride
of opinion all combined to makehim defend his practice and
(33:44):
refuse either to own himselfwrong or deceased from his evil
ways.
Mandy (33:48):
Mm-hmm.
katy (33:48):
Okay, so don't embarrass them.
Yeah.
Mandy (33:51):
Uhhuh,
katy (33:52):
Some someone close to them needs to privately, quietly, and
over time maybe hint at howslavery is bad,
Mandy (34:00):
Mm-hmm.
katy (34:01):
is her preferred approach.
The abolitionists have violatedall these laws of mind and of
experience in dealing with theirsouthern brethren.
They have not approached themwith the spirit of love,
courtesy, and forbearance.
I just tasted bile in my mouth.
They are not the persons whowould be regarded by the South
as having any right to interferein dealing with their breathren.
Two, they have not tried silent,retired private measures.
(34:23):
It has been public denunciationof crime and shame in newspapers
addressed, as it were tobystanders in order to arouse
the guilty.
Mandy (34:30):
I mean, this just reminds me so much of how churches have
approached sexual abusers intheir midst
katy (34:37):
Oh,
Mandy (34:37):
decades.
Like, we're just going to keepthis on the down though in
private, not make it a publicthing.
That always works well.
That's real protective of thevulnerable populations for sure.
katy (34:51):
I, oh my God.
And I think it's, it's comingfrom, I actually do wanna ask
you like what elements of this,like, because we're living in
such a reactionary time, likewhat elements of this do.
Resonate too.
Like yeah, the, there's like,when you hear people.
Like there's conversations rightnow about like, yeah, men are
(35:14):
feeling so dis, like white menare feeling like, oh, they're
under attack.
It's like very similar argumentsthat I think are being made
about like now.
Even like how to call in, callout and, and that's maybe like a
blanket statement, but I thinkwhat I have a problem with isn't
that someone would say, well,I'm gonna try this other
strategy.
Good.
All hands on deck.
(35:34):
Great.
You know.
It's that it should only be thisway.
And the, the bigger problem Ihave is that they're starting
their clock now.
Like, don't, you're raising sucha ruckus, like give me time
starting now when it's like,well, this problem has been
going on for checks clock 300years, so I, and these people,
(35:57):
this movement has been going on.
And at what point do you say,yeah, we get to.
Raise a ruckus.
You know, that's, it's, it's,and I, so whenever people are
urging politeness or likeslowness or quietness, I always
think like, what clock are youon?
When do you think this problemstarted and how long do you
(36:21):
think these other people haveknown that it's wrong forever,
actually.
So that is what taps my head.
I think the most about it is,it's just so convenient.
It's the timing that'sconvenient to her.
Certainly not to all the peoplewho've been experiencing it and
all the generations of peoplewho've been fighting it.
Mandy (36:38):
Mm-hmm.
katy (36:38):
annoying.
Mandy (36:39):
Mm-hmm.
katy (36:40):
Another thing it makes me think of Martin Luther King's
letter from a Birmingham jail.
When he talks about the whitemoderates being the problem,
he's like, God damn, come on.
Mandy (36:48):
Mm-hmm.
katy (36:49):
I'm sure he didn't say that.
That's not a direct quote.
That's my quote.
Mandy (36:52):
Yep.
Yep.
katy (36:53):
My paraphrasing.
All right.
Last little section here.
But suppose the abolitionistssucceed not only in making
northern men abolitionists, butalso in sending a portion of
light into the south, such as toform a body of abolitionists
there also, what is the thingthat is to be done to end
slavery at the south?
It is to alter the laws.
And to do this, a small minoritymust be, get a long, bitter,
terrible conflict with apowerful and exasperated
(37:13):
majority.
How will the exasperatedmajority act according to the
known laws of mind and ofexperience instead of lessening
the evils of slavery?
They will increase them.
They will make laws so unjustand oppressive, not only to
slaves, but to theirabolitionist advocates, that by
degrees such men will withdrawfrom their bounds.
Then the numerical proportion ofwhites will decrease, and the
cruelty and unrestrainedwickedness of the system will
increase till a period willcome.
(37:34):
When the physical power will beso much with the blacks, their
sense of suffering.
So increase the volcano, willburst, insurrection, and serve
our wars will begin, ugh.
Like as if insurrection isunconscionable to her.
Like, are you.
Mandy (37:48):
Yeah,
katy (37:49):
Are you outta your mind?
That's me.
Mandy (37:51):
yeah.
katy (37:51):
Yeah.
Mandy (37:52):
only are you going about it the wrong way, but now she's
blaming them for making thingsworse.
katy (37:58):
Yeah.
Oh, here's the last little bit.
Oh, the countless horrors ofsuch a day.
Will the tears of insurrectionsweep over the south and no
northern and western blood beshed?
This is no picture of fancydangers, which are not near.
The day has come when alreadythe feelings are so excited on
both sides that I've heardintelligent men, good men,
benevolent and pious men inmoments of excitement to clear
themselves, ready to take up thesword.
Some for the defense of themaster, some for the protection
(38:20):
of the right of the slave, likeshe's clearly talking about.
Right before the Civil War.
Right.
But I, it's this idea that like,okay, the, the massive horrors,
the, the family separation, therapes, the abuse, the lynchings,
the murder, all of that is, isfine.
Like, that's, that's, yes, it'sevil, but we can keep doing that
(38:41):
and just take as long as we needto, to quietly suggest and hint
at how that might not be good.
But how very dare people.
Decide to physically make peoplestop abusing them?
Mandy (38:56):
Yeah,
katy (38:57):
No,
Mandy (38:58):
I thought you were talking about present day when
katy (39:00):
I mean,
Mandy (39:01):
the family
katy (39:01):
it's,
Mandy (39:03):
the lynching and the whatever.
I'm like, oh yeah,
katy (39:06):
I, I actually am,
Mandy (39:08):
or
katy (39:09):
Right.
No, I personally am non-violent.
I appreciate non-violence, butthat doesn't mean.
You there isn't violence likethe nonviolent movement of the
civil Rights movement?
Absolutely.
Raise the stakes and turned upthe heat and were agitating.
That was the point, was toagitate and reveal the depths of
(39:30):
disparity that were happening.
Like, that's it.
So this to me, it's not likeeither, you know, you go out and
I, I actually can understand therationale behind that, you know,
to take up arms.
But it, it's not either that oryou just do what Catherine is
suggesting, which is like, oh,hello cousin, if you have a
moment.
Ever talk about why baby, thisisn't great.
(39:52):
You know, let me know.
I'm here to talk to you again.
If she wants to do that, fine.
But calling out the grimkesisters or calling out people
who are like, enough, enoughthis.
We're done.
This is wrong.
That, that I have a problemwith.
And so knowing that she's thislike foundational ideological
footprint on education,
Mandy (40:13):
Mm-hmm.
katy (40:14):
it's helpful to look at how she thought about things.
As a way into the broadersystems that we're going to
learn about next week and reallydive into boarding schools and
what was happening for schoolsof immigrant children, and just
understanding, again, theweaponization of motherhood and
mothering and nurturing as thesethings that you women are quote,
(40:35):
uniquely situated to do, andwhite Christian women in
particular, that we are going tokeep unpacking.
Mandy (40:42):
Hmm.
interesting.
katy (40:45):
Thanks.
Mandy (40:46):
Okay.
Bring that discussion up foryour family dinners.
katy (40:51):
Yeah, there you go.
Mandy (40:53):
We'll
katy (40:53):
They, maybe that's good homework.
Yeah.
Is like one, one moment wherewe're not polite, you know, see
what happens.
Ha ha.
We might not ever have a podcastagain.
We'll see.
Yeah.
I hope you're well.
I'll talk to you soon.
Mandy (41:08):
talk to you guys soon.
Bye.
katy (41:10):
Bye.
Okay.
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