June 21, 2025 • 45 mins
Navigating the Mess: White Women's Role in Politics and Motherhood
Hosts Mandy Griffin and Katie Swalwell delve into a discussion about the pervasive and historical role white women have played in upholding white supremacy through politics and motherhood. They reflect on the disorienting state of current events, the importance of local action, and the influence of female political figures like Krisit Noem, Pam Bondi, and Joni Ernst. The episode primarily focuses on the book 'Mothers of Massive Resistance' by Elizabeth Gillespie McCray, which explores how white women have consistently contributed to segregation and racism in America. The hosts highlight their disillusionment with the political system and express the need to understand historical patterns to effectively combat ongoing inequalities.
00:00 Welcome to Dirty Laundry
00:46 Life in a Dissociative State
01:39 Trump's Women and Media Overload
04:12 Commercials and Political Ads
07:16 Trump's Surgeon General Nominee Controversy
14:36 The Importance of Science and Research
20:24 Influencers and Misinformation
20:53 Marketing Manipulation and Grifters
21:20 Political Commentary on Joni Ernst
25:40 The Role of Motherhood in Politics
27:26 Plant Research and Mutual Aid
29:11 Introduction to 'Mothers of Massive Resistance'
30:33 White Women's Role in White Supremacy
43:42 Call to Action and Future Plans
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Intro (00:00):
Hi, this is Mandy Griffin.
(00:01):
And I'm Katie Swalwell, andwelcome to our Dirty Laundry,
stories of white ladies making amess of things and how we need
to clean up our act.
Mandy (00:14):
We're here.
katy (00:15):
Okay.
Mandy (00:16):
We always say that we're gonna get back into this, and
it's gonna be like this.
We're gonna do it.
And then it's like three
katy (00:23):
Every week.
I know May.
I'm hoping that that's howeveryone's life feels right now.
Where has it been?
Three months, or has it beenthree days?
Who knows?
Who can tell?
Who can be.
Sure.
That's kind of how the rhythm ofmy life feels anyway.
And I know you're in the sameboat.
So Yes.
Like we we're still here and westill think about these things
and we're still mad, I guess.
Mandy (00:46):
I'm just hoping that I can get through the next three
and a half years in this semidissociative state
katy (00:53):
I know.
Mandy (00:54):
Did it not happen?
We survived?
katy (00:56):
What, what day is it?
What year is it?
What month is it?
I mean, I really, and part ofthis too, and we've talked about
this before, is I think us justbeing middle aged also and like
parents of younger kids, likepre-teen kids, and.
Also perimenopausal, like mydisassociative state could be
(01:17):
for lots of reasons, let's putit that way.
So it's hard to pin it down andit's kind of all happening at
once.
But I, I don't know.
And I never wanna organize mylife around presidential terms.
'cause that just feels like astupid waste of time to do it
that way and makes it soundlike, oh, once he's gone,
everything will be better.
Which is not the case, which Iknow.
(01:37):
We know.
I know.
We know, I know.
Mandy (01:39):
Mm-hmm.
katy (01:39):
So, yeah, I'm just, we were just talking with friends
last night about how both myhusband and I are taking breaks
from the news.
Like you just, and then we feelguilty about it, but also just
for our mental health.
Like I can't be that hyperfixated on everything because
that just is not helpful.
So it's, I don't know, we talkabout this all the time whenever
(02:00):
we record, like how are youtrying to make sense of the
deluge of garba?
And it's just very.
Mandy (02:08):
Yes.
katy (02:09):
Hard.
Mandy (02:10):
Yes.
katy (02:10):
then there's like local things happening that are very
real and there are things thatcan be done about those very
local things, and that feelslike a better place to put my
energy and time.
Mandy (02:22):
Yes.
But we are gonna get, we do havea plan.
Of what we want to do next,
katy (02:28):
Yes.
Mandy (02:29):
which we're gonna talk about.
But I also realize that we havenot wrapped up what we were
talking about before,
katy (02:36):
Yeah.
Mandy (02:37):
which is all of Trump's women,
katy (02:40):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (02:42):
It's so painful that I'm just like, I can't, I can't give
any more of my mind space tothese people, but they
continually keep showing up onour screens.
It's like they're becoming moreand more central.
katy (02:56):
I was gonna say.
It's like it's impossible tokeep up because I'm even
thinking of Christie Nome andlike her escalation of things.
It just, it's like the minute,even if we recorded this podcast
every day, we wouldn't be ableto keep up with the escalation
of horrors and I, I'm, I'mpronouncing that horrors, but I
(03:19):
think you could use another wordthat sounds much more like that.
But it just, it's impossible tokeep up.
That's basically just all it is.
Mandy (03:26):
this little like quote on an Instagram meme that said, the
first time I heard aboutChristie Nome, it was her
admitting to killing her dog,and it's only gone downhill from
there.
katy (03:38):
It's so true.
Mandy (03:41):
how
katy (03:42):
I cannot
Mandy (03:43):
horrifying thing about this
katy (03:45):
That's what I mean about space and time.
It's like, oh, we were at thisreally horrible spot and then I
turn around and that spot islike 72 miles away and I'm like,
wait, what?
That used to be the new low.
Where, what's this now?
Where are we now?
Mandy (04:00):
I know,
katy (04:01):
I, it's so disorienting.
So, yes.
I feel that.
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (04:06):
like Pam Bondy, who we did talk about all over the
place
katy (04:09):
Yes.
Mandy (04:10):
like my son spends.
Way too much time watching,other people play video games on
YouTube these videos areinterrupted by commercials all
of the time.
katy (04:20):
Okay.
Mandy (04:21):
swear to you, half of the commercials are Pam Bondy on the
TV talking about how like if youare illegal and if you're
breaking the law, you will notget away with it.
They are coming for you.
katy (04:33):
You know what's wild?
I think that is reallyinteresting about.
Thinking of where they're buyingad space.
And it doesn't surprise me thatit would be on like, dude, bro,
video streaming YouTubechannels.
Like that makes sense.
I was on a work trip recentlyand I don't ever watch tv.
We don't, we just watch like.
Shows on streaming, and socommercials are just not
(04:55):
something that come across mylike
Mandy (04:58):
Existence.
katy (05:00):
My existence.
Even my kids like, we'll go to ahotel and they're, or like.
My in-laws will be at a hotel.
We'll go visit them or somethingand the TV will be on and
commercials will be playing.
And my kids are absolutelyfascinated.
They're like this, I wanna watchthis show.
What is this?
They, they want, they're like,so invested.
And that makes me nervous.
They're like little baby wildanimals that have been raised in
(05:23):
captivity and then are gonna beput out in the wild and just
immediately eaten becausethey've never been exposed to
any threat or danger.
They have no awareness ofadvertisements, you know, I need
to beef up their, their skillsat being able to interpret that
and like know when they're beingmarketed to.
But anyway, there, so I was in ahotel lobby and there it was,
(05:45):
the TV was on, and the localnews.
Like it was a local news programand so this, these commercials
were playing and it was likemattress commercial or whatever,
just like the boring, normalstuff.
And then it was a commercial,but this was Christie Nome.
And it was like, I am, you know,thanks to our wonderful
(06:05):
president that we're crackingdown immigration.
And it was one of those like,we're coming from you, like
we're coming for you.
Get out commercials.
And I was like.
What the actual fuck ishappening right now.
Like, how is this a commercialthat the, like, how is this even
legal?
Like I was so confused andweirded out and just, it just
(06:27):
felt so strange.
And then I, you know, like putit on the list of like weird,
strange things that I have a lotof questions and concerns about,
honestly,
Mandy (06:36):
like fear and terrorizing.
Of immigrant groups and I thinkabout all these poor, children
of immigrants that are
katy (06:44):
Oh my God.
Mandy (06:45):
the ones
katy (06:46):
Oh my God.
Mandy (06:48):
and like it just seems so mean.
So much of it is
katy (06:52):
It's so, it is, so it's all.
Cruelty based.
I mean that that is what it,it's like it, I know we've
talked about this word before,but the idea of macropolitics
like that just, it is a politicsbased on fear, cruelty and
death,
Mandy (07:09):
Mm-hmm.
katy (07:10):
And that's the foundation of it.
So that's where we get this.
It's wild.
Mandy (07:15):
Yeah.
The only other one that I wantedto bring up that we had gone
over is when we talked aboutTrump's initial appointee for
surgeon General being Jeanette,nwa,
katy (07:27):
Oh, yeah,
Mandy (07:28):
and
katy (07:29):
yeah.
Yeah.
Mandy (07:29):
now she's just like.
Off the table, they, where theywithdrew her nomination and who
they replaced it with.
So first of all, why thathappened, there's not a lot of
details on except for that.
People started questioning I.
OTs credentials becauseapparently on her LinkedIn, she
lists that she got her MD fromthe University of Arkansas, but
(07:54):
that's not true.
katy (07:55):
God.
Mandy (07:56):
she went to school at the American University of the
Caribbean in St.
Martin.
katy (08:02):
Okay.
Mandy (08:02):
did complete her residency at U of A, but it's
like very, sleazy, I guess, Idunno
katy (08:12):
Like shady.
There's something shady.
Mandy (08:15):
did not, she did not get her medical degree from there.
Like you can say you
katy (08:19):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (08:19):
there,
katy (08:20):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (08:20):
but
katy (08:21):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (08:21):
your medical degree from the American University of the
Caribbean, which fine
katy (08:25):
Right, but just say that
Mandy (08:27):
but don't lie about it.
So they thought that was gonnabe a problem during your
confirmation.
katy (08:33):
honestly, the fact that she does actually have a medical
degree from anywhere is such ahuge benefit to anything.
Like that's how low the bar is.
It's like, oh, but she is anactual medical trained doctor.
Mandy (08:45):
But here's the thing.
So the person that she wasreplaced with, Casey means does
technically have a medicaldegree.
She went to Stanford MedicalSchool.
Great
katy (08:59):
Okay.
Mandy (09:00):
but she never finished her residency and never
practiced as a physician.
katy (09:06):
What's her?
Mandy (09:07):
during her residency she just got very disillusioned by
the American medical system,which, same babe?
katy (09:14):
so.
Mandy (09:16):
I am.
I get, I get it.
Like, and so she just quit inher residency and then focused
on becoming basically thisinfluencer, which, she's most
well known for a book she wrotethat came out in the last couple
of years I think called GoodEnergy.
(09:36):
And I will fully admit, Idownloaded it on Audible before
she became very well known.
And before she definitely,before she was nominated for
this position and more came outabout her views.
And I've, I haven't finished it.
I have listened to a lot of itand I'm not Some of her basic
(09:57):
premises, like lot of her stuffis just rooted in that we have
all this metabolic dysfunctionin individuals due to like the
horrific diets and likesedentary lifestyle that we
katy (10:09):
Hmm.
Mandy (10:10):
tend to live, and that is like a root cause of chronic
disease, which is true.
katy (10:15):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (10:16):
there's, you can't really find fault in that line of
argument.
katy (10:21):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (10:21):
And it would be so nice if that was more of a focus of
medical education because it isnot like there is not, you may
get like your lecture one day inschool about nutrition
katy (10:34):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (10:35):
a focus of medical education whatsoever.
Definitely not a focus whenyou're treating people,
especially not in the er,legitimately, we have been told
to not even tell people thattheir problems could be due to
their weight because people getoffended and then they write
katy (10:52):
Mm
Mandy (10:53):
So if they come in with knee pain or uncontrolled
diabetes or whatever, like
katy (10:59):
mm.
Mandy (11:00):
literally the powers that be don't even want you to bring
up weight as part of thatproblem'cause it's offensive.
So there's a huge problem.
I, I totally agree on that.
When it comes to where she kindof got disillusioned with the
American medical system, butthen she goes off the rails on
(11:21):
so many things, like somehowthat goes into where she then
ends up endorsing the healthbenefits of raw milk and.
katy (11:29):
No.
Mandy (11:30):
Yes.
has said that birth controlpills are overprescribed and
signal a disrespect for humanlife.
And I'm like, no.
Why?
But why?
Why can't you just stick areally legitimate argument that
has a lot to it that could go,you know.
(11:51):
A lot of places and actuallyhelp people and then you have to
go to this bullshit.
And then she also calls thevaccine schedule for children
insane
katy (12:00):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (12:01):
mandates are criminal.
katy (12:03):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (12:03):
so no.
katy (12:05):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (12:06):
Like
katy (12:06):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (12:07):
from, we got rid of a woman fibbed a little bit on her
medical education training
katy (12:16):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (12:16):
who's not even a real doctor
katy (12:19):
am so curious why with the first nominee, like given.
The massive heaps of bullshitaround every person in this
administration.
Why that would nick her in anyway.
You know what I'm saying?
Like that's holding her to sucha quaint, antiquated standard
that nobody else seems to givetwo shits about in this
(12:40):
administration.
Like why would that matter?
Mandy (12:42):
There
katy (12:43):
It may
Mandy (12:43):
There must be something else behind it,
katy (12:45):
right.
Mandy (12:45):
gotta be something we don't know.
Because we, when we talked abouther, there's something about her
brother-in-law has been inTrump's sphere for a long time
and does stuff for
katy (12:55):
Hmm.
Mandy (12:55):
he's actually like, he's the un appointee now.
I don't know if there's somefamily stuff going on or
katy (13:03):
Hmm.
Mandy (13:03):
other dirt.
They didn't want dredged up.
Like who knows, but that's whatthey said.
But you're totally right.
Like to attack her credentialslike that when
katy (13:12):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (13:13):
all of
katy (13:14):
Or to get or to, or if people are raising critiques,
it's like, why would they careeither?
It just doesn't seem like any ofthat matters in any other
Mandy (13:24):
Yeah.
katy (13:24):
circumstances.
So that is a curious thing.
Mandy (13:27):
influence too, because Casey means was an
katy (13:30):
Mm
Mandy (13:30):
to RFK on his presidential nomination.
And so
katy (13:34):
Okay.
Mandy (13:34):
he's the health secretary, maybe he was like,
no,
katy (13:37):
Right.
Mandy (13:38):
I
katy (13:38):
I want this person.
Mandy (13:39):
And when Trump was questioned about the nomination.
basically people are like, butdo you know she's not even an
actual doctor.
His response was basically like,well, Robert likes her and he
said she was gonna be good.
So it's
katy (13:54):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (13:54):
Trump doesn't know Jack shit about her
katy (13:57):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (13:57):
Sure, do whatever you want, Robert.
katy (13:59):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (14:00):
that happened.
So, but she's also not, she hasnot been confirmed yet.
There's still not even a hearingon the books for her
confirmation.
So we'll see how all that goes.
But then I was like.
How are we six months into this?
And we don't have evenscheduled, but apparently that's
not that big of a thing to nothave that nailed down because
(14:22):
one of Obama's nominees, VivekMurthy, took like 17 months to
get through
katy (14:27):
Hmm.
Mandy (14:28):
I guess so,
katy (14:29):
Oh geez.
Mandy (14:30):
weird.
I don't
katy (14:31):
It is.
I don't understand it either.
Well, that's interesting.
I mean, I think what's, likethis to me is the reasons that
we should not be cutting budgetsfor science research right now.
The way that all the budgets arebeing slashed for all different
kinds of research projects,science is, constantly
(14:53):
uncovering new things.
I'm reading this book right nowthat I love so much.
It's so well written and it'ssuper fascinating.
It's called The Light Eaters andit's about cutting edge plant
science and what they're findingout about plants.
That's really, reallyfascinating.
And it's also just a like, thewoman who's writing it is a
science writer.
(15:13):
She, that's her beat for areally long time.
And so just kind of writingabout the nature of scientists
themselves and how science tendsto be super conservative.
Not in a political sense, butvery unwilling to.
Shift what is considered commonsense about things until they
have a preponderance of evidenceto say yes, in fact this other
(15:34):
thing is right and just thelimits of that, but also the
benefits of that being theapproach to science.
And it's a beautiful book if youwanna have your mind blown.
I texted a friend and I waslike.
I have not been reading thisbook high, but I feel like I
might as well be because I keephaving these thoughts and I'm
like, man, this is amazing.
It's just, it really isincredible.
(15:55):
I've always loved trees.
I think they're amazing.
It is just a really fascinatingthing about just how incredible
plants are and how they work.
But a lot of it like with thisone chapter, this is, I'm so far
afield right now, but I.
Swear, I'm making a connection.
This one chapter is about thisvine that can change itself to
mimic the plants around it, tothe point where it can change
(16:18):
how many frons it has on itsleaves and whether it has thorns
or not.
Like it can, it can literallylike.
Mutate enough to mimic somethingso well, and it's not something
that's evolved over generations.
It's like it can literally do itin like a month with a plant
it's never met before, which is,they said it's the equivalent of
(16:39):
like a human hung out with arhino and then developed like a
horn to look like a rhino.
That's the level of likewildness that's happening.
And so one of the theories abouthow that is happening is that.
It has to do with the bacteriathat live inside the plants and
the way that they turn genes onor off, and that maybe the
(16:59):
bacteria that live inside thisvine are really good at.
Getting information from thebacteria that live in the other
plants and then are just likeprogramming their plant to do
whatever the neighbor plant isdoing from these bacteria.
And there it links to a lot ofcutting edge science about
humans and our biomes and theway that the bacteria that live
(17:20):
inside of us actually have likeway more control and power over
our lives than a lot of otherthings.
And that our nutrition.
Related to how we are feedingthe bacteria or not feeding
back, like it, it's allconnected and just how this is
like under studied and we'rejust starting to learn more
about this.
(17:41):
All of this is to say that ifyou have, like I, I am curious
about the world and I knowenough to know that we know so
little about how things work,but there are things we do know.
Yeah, that is real.
And I still do believe in liketrying to figure things out in
(18:02):
some kind of systematic,thoughtful way.
And I don't think that alwaysmeans like in super sterile
labs, this book gets into thattoo about like all different
kinds of ways to do science.
But that still, they all arescience in some ways.
So when you have people who, I,to your point that there are
these like, Hey, the, thismedical system is, is a hot
(18:25):
mess.
Yes.
We have limited science on X, Y,and Z.
Like, correct.
I'm with, I'm there for that.
But then to have the next.
Point that you connect to it tobe like, therefore let's do this
thing.
That is where I fall off.
I have a lot of questions I amcurious about a lot.
(18:45):
I am humble enough to know thatwe don't know everything and
that new evidence is emergingall of the time and, and yet
like.
I don't understand theconclusions that some of these
folks are reaching, and I willalso call massive bullshit on
some of them when I know thatthey actually don't believe what
(19:06):
they're saying
Mandy (19:07):
Right.
katy (19:07):
and that it's to just profit
Mandy (19:09):
They're
katy (19:09):
some way.
Mandy (19:10):
They're just
katy (19:11):
They're grifting.
That's exactly right.
It's so disingenuous and so.
Insidious that I get reallyangry.
You know, you're full of shit.
Mandy (19:20):
That's why I get so pissed off about the whole trad
wife bullshit thing
katy (19:24):
Your criticisms are
Mandy (19:26):
like it,
katy (19:27):
the grind culture is not working for anyone.
Yes.
Like I am with you on all ofthese things and I like freshly
baked bread.
Great.
That's yes.
Mandy (19:36):
But you also see how it draws people in.
katy (19:41):
A hundred percent
Mandy (19:42):
like, I
katy (19:42):
disaffected.
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (19:44):
And
katy (19:45):
Yes.
Mandy (19:46):
they just end up going down these rabbit holes with
them and like buying full intoit.
And that's where I don't get it.
I'm
katy (19:52):
Yes, yes.
Mandy (19:54):
How do you not see that this is taken like a sharp turn?
katy (19:59):
A sharp turn and that the person leading you off that
cliff is themselves not goingoff that cliff, and they're
making a shit ton of money offof people taking that sharp
turn.
Like that's the part where I'mlike, wake up.
Like I don't disagree that therearen't these fundamental
problems, but why are wefollowing these assholes who.
(20:19):
Aren't themselves doing thesethings.
They're like, we, I mean,there's so much.
We always say this, that there'slike a million years we could do
this podcast and it would neverrun out of content.
Mandy (20:29):
Yep.
katy (20:29):
But these, like, there's one influencer, I cannot think
of her name right now, but she'sall about like a paleo lifestyle
and this, analysis that I wasseeing was trying to break down
her arguments.
It was basically teaching peoplehow to use logic to dismantle
and recognize what it is thatthis influencer is doing and how
they're trying to take thesescientific nuggets and then take
(20:50):
these hard turns to make youthink that what they're saying.
Is true.
And then how they're likeseducing you into buying all of
their marketing and packagingyou their products and selling
and it just as a way to makemoney.
It's absolutely a grift.
Mandy (21:02):
Yep.
katy (21:03):
so that should be another like white women.
Grifters could be like a wholeother
Mandy (21:08):
Oh boy.
katy (21:09):
Yes.
Mandy (21:10):
some candidates?
katy (21:11):
So many.
Oh my God.
Mandy (21:14):
maybe that'll be the next thing.
But we
katy (21:16):
Okay.
Mandy (21:17):
got to do the moms.
We have to talk about the moms.
katy (21:20):
Wait, before we get into the mom intro, speaking that she
is a mom.
So I guess this is someone whokind of connects all of these
dots.
I just wanna note the fact thatsince we have last talked that
Joni Ernst was at a town halland made this comment that.
The people were really upset andfrustrated about Medicaid cuts
(21:43):
and somebody is like, they'rekind of, you can watch the video
online.
Somebody kind of shouts out fromthe back, like, people are going
to die.
Mandy (21:50):
Yeah.
katy (21:50):
And her reply was, well, we, we'll, we are all going to
die.
So I guess like being from I, Ilive in Iowa.
You grew up in Iowa.
This is how we have known andloved each other for most of our
lives.
What, when you heard that, whatwas your.
Response or thoughts?
Mandy (22:09):
I mean, from her I was like, standard, you know, like
not, she's an evil human beings,so, but it's just.
So misses the point like, yeah,we're all gonna die, but that
doesn't mean we go out and likeall jump off a cliff today or
(22:31):
like that you do things that aregoing to speed that along.
katy (22:38):
Right, right.
Like disproportionately speedthat along for vulnerable groups
of people.
That's the macropolitics of it.
Like if we're all gonna die,then what matters about anything
actually, like if that's yourconclusion, like why bother with
literally anything, then
Mandy (22:57):
her follow up video,
katy (22:58):
well I've got, yes, I did see that all, which also I've
like.
This is what I mean about beingso disoriented, because that one
thing was bad enough and I wasstill trying to process that
when she posts this quoteapology video, which is just
absolute sarcasm and kind of herattempt to be like trolley you,
like cool, a cool troll, Iguess.
(23:19):
And so she.
Mandy (23:20):
a cemetery, right?
katy (23:23):
Yes, it's like a first person cam, like she's walking
through what looks to be acemetery
Mandy (23:27):
Yeah.
katy (23:28):
at one point she says I made an incorrect assumption
that everyone in the auditoriumunderstood that yes, we are all
going to perish from this earth.
So I apologize and I'm really,really glad that I did not have
to bring up the subject of thetooth fairy as well.
It's so like, I just am so.
Oh, perplexed at how it, it isthat really what she think, like
(23:52):
I'm just trying to make sense oflike, does she really believe
what she's saying in this likesarcastic apology video that
does she really believe thatthat person who yelled that out
Mandy (24:04):
Didn't
katy (24:04):
didn't
Mandy (24:05):
people
katy (24:05):
think people are gonna like, do you actually think
that, or do you like I that youcannot actually believe that?
What, what is going on?
What is happening?
It's just, it's just sodisorienting.
I like, I've had massiveproblems with this senator for
such a long time, partly becauseshe, herself is a victim.
(24:28):
She has written about this in abook about being a survivor of
domestic violence and a survivorof sexual assault, and then goes
on to support a president whohas been.
You know, convicted not of, butof like, oh yeah, there's a
reality there that this is whathe did like there.
And then also supported BrettKavanaugh and also supported
(24:51):
like it's just so wild to methat someone can, can set aside.
I just, I cannot make heads ortails of it.
And so this happens and it like,I really cannot.
Understand a, a politics that'sbased on getting people to care
(25:14):
less about each other.
Mandy (25:17):
Mm-hmm.
katy (25:19):
That's, that is what is happening.
And I am, I cannot understandjust like from a, like an
ethical point of view, how youget yourself there, but also
like why that seems like theright way to go.
Also does not make sense to me.
So I'm just, I'm reallystruggling.
(25:40):
And of course, she's a mom,she's a daughter who's in her
twenties.
And, and that, I think that's,she's the, she's the first woman
to get elected to represent Iowain the federal government.
She's the first woman in federalgovernment to have been a
veteran who served in combat.
Like there are, she is this kindof nexus of like, oh, the like,
(26:03):
like a way to use her motherhoodas a vehicle for these politics,
but it just is so the oppositeof how I have understood the
role of mothering.
It just is the opposite of that.
It's like for me, if I had todefine mothering, it would be
helping to care for people andgetting them to care for each
(26:25):
other.
That's literally how I woulddescribe it.
Like at its core, and this is apolitics that's like care less.
Do less caring.
Mandy (26:35):
Yeah,
katy (26:36):
So I don't know what that's, it's like the anti
mothering politics,
Mandy (26:40):
for it's so, and I mean, we're gonna get into all of
that.
I mean, it does transition verywell into what we're gonna talk
about next because there issomething like protective in
isolationism, I think.
I feel like that's where their
katy (26:56):
I guess, of like whoever you can draw that circle around.
Mandy (26:59):
Yeah.
katy (27:00):
Then that like it's us versus them, I guess.
But it just like, I can't evenfigure out who is in the US
circle at this point.
Like I, that's what I'mstruggling to figure out.
You keep drawing that circletighter and tighter, and then
who's left in it even.
Mandy (27:18):
Yeah, no, for sure.
Well, we'll see.
Hopefully this book is
katy (27:23):
Hopefully we don't see.
Oh my God.
Mandy (27:26):
I mean,
katy (27:26):
By the way, this plant book has an answer to this also,
like I cannot rave enough aboutthe book, the Light Eaters, but
there's plant research thatshows when you plant that, that
plants have personalities even,and when you the way that
they've been geneticallymodifying plants is to
basically.
They assumed that if they blbred the most aggressive plants
(27:50):
that like kind of seek out allthe sunshine over any other
plants and compete really hardagainst other plants, that's
what they were breeding for.
But what they found is thatactually leads to lower yields,
to lower crop yields.
That what you want, that whatleads to the biggest bounty are
plants that engage in mutualaid.
Mandy (28:09):
Mm-hmm.
katy (28:10):
you do, there are plant, like that is a plant personality
and that is something that someplants do really, really well.
And then there's superinteresting research about
plants engaging in mutual aidwith their kin that they're
genetically related to more thanlike plants that they're not
directly.
Like there's really fascinatingstuff, but I think like that
(28:32):
there is something about life,just any kind of life and.
What helps life thrive and whatdoes not help life thrive.
And so that even just at like abasic existence level, I don't
understand, like life doesn'tthrive when you are like
(28:53):
aggressively competing to stampeverything else out.
So I don't even understand itfrom like an evolutionary point
of view actually.
Mandy (29:00):
yeah,
katy (29:02):
Anyway, that's where I'm at.
At a like a level of like.
Physics and existence.
I'm trying to understand, butyes.
Let's, let's shift into theseason.
We started, God knows how longago about motherhood and its
relationship to settlercolonialism, and I know we're
gonna get into that more.
(29:23):
But talk about where we're gonnastart with this.
Dive into motherhood.
Mandy (29:27):
So we're gonna start with a book by Elizabeth Gillespie
McCray called
katy (29:34):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (29:34):
Massive Resistance.
And I know we have had this onour radar for a long time
because this book has
katy (29:40):
A long time.
Mandy (29:40):
bookshelf for at least the past couple of years.
I mean, it was.
First printed in 2018, so, andnow we're in 2025.
I don't know how that happened.
katy (29:52):
Oh my God.
You just said 2018.
I was like, oh.
So two years ago, I literallyjust thought in my head, that
was two years ago.
That's how disoriented I am.
Yes.
Mandy (30:02):
stuck in 2020 forever.
We've never gotten over it.
katy (30:05):
Our brains broke.
Yeah.
Yes.
Mandy (30:08):
so it's called Mothers of Massive Resistance, and it's
particularly the subtitle isWhite Women and the Politics of
White Supremacy,
katy (30:17):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (30:18):
is just right up our alley.
It's basically what we do.
katy (30:21):
This is catnip.
Whoever came up with this titlewas probably like, there's gonna
be these two girls who gab aboutWhite Lady Shittiness.
Let's target market to them.
Mandy (30:33):
So the whole book is basically focusing, I think it
focuses on four different womenand kind of their activism in
the space of reinforcing whitesupremacy through like white
womanhood and mothering.
Talks about in the introductionabout how a lot of our.
(30:55):
History that maybe what the mostof us know about, like women in
politics either focuses on thesixties and seventies with
feminism
katy (31:03):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (31:05):
back at the time of Brown versus the Board of Education
School desegregation in the1950s and the black and white
pictures that we've all seen oflike the white women protesting
and screaming and like shoutinghorrific things at these poor.
Little children of color tryingto integrate schools,
katy (31:26):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (31:26):
and the whole history of school integration.
But her basic thesis is thatthis has actually been going on
for so much longer than that.
katy (31:38):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (31:38):
1950s reaction to the Brown Supreme Court ruling was
rooted in generations of whitemothering before that.
katy (31:49):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (31:50):
And we've talked about it even like in the way that white
women were involved in publicschool education curriculum
after the Civil War to reframe,
katy (32:01):
of the Confederacy, right?
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (32:03):
And reframing public education after that to make all
of that same.
Less horrific than it was.
I don't know, some way to
katy (32:12):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (32:12):
Set up all of the Confederate generals as like
heroes and all
katy (32:17):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (32:17):
So we've talked about some of that,
katy (32:20):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (32:20):
of in to how integral white, white women have been
politics of white supremacy andsegregation and how all of that.
At the individual level, like inthese community levels then
translates into nationalpolitics.
katy (32:42):
Hmm.
Mandy (32:43):
and how it has been a very strong thread for a long
time and it's, it's reallyinteresting to think about
because like white women do flyunder the radar, I think.
katy (32:56):
Yeah.
Mandy (32:57):
On their involvement in all of this.
Like we blame white men for alot of things.
And don't get me wrong, they areup there
katy (33:08):
No.
Mandy (33:09):
white women, it's even like a, I don't know.
There just seems to be somethingmeaner about.
katy (33:17):
Hmm.
Mandy (33:18):
Women's involvement in this?
Just something more like,because it's more personal, I
guess.
Because it does seem more likeon a, taking that role of
nurturing and turning it into
katy (33:32):
corrupting it.
Perverting it.
Well, and I think too, there's.
Like again, I'm also not lettingcis hat rich white men off the
line do not interpret it likethis, but there's a part of me
that kind of feels like, gosh,you just have no way in
personally to understanding, Iknow you can, and I want you to
(33:53):
get there, but I feel likethere's a certain expectation
that white women are knowingly.
Because they are experiencingmisogyny or sexism or the
patriarchy.
Like they're, they should be insolidarity in all these ways.
But they aren't.
And I say they when really weshould say we.
(34:13):
I don't know.
I always wonder about ourpronoun use whenever we talk
about all this history, but it'slike, you should know better.
It's almost like I expect,again, I'm not letting maga.
Like Trump off the hook,
Mandy (34:28):
Mm-hmm.
katy (34:29):
has never pretended to be anything else but like an utter,
Mandy (34:33):
Trash
katy (34:34):
like absolute like empty void.
Right?
Like that's, and so I'm almostlike I have more disrespect for
the people who I really do thinkknow better, but are making this
bargain knowingly.
It's like a special place in myheart to hate them, you know,
because like they should knowbetter.
(34:55):
So I, there's something aboutthat it makes me think of when
we talk to Stephanie JonesRogers about her book with white
women who enslaved people andjust like the absolute,
creativity that they exhibitedin their cruelty and the ways
that because of the patriarchalways that history has been
(35:16):
written, that got erased orhidden or attributed and
ascribed to men in a way thatlet women kind of like sneak,
sneak by.
Mandy (35:26):
Which is a lot of what her introduction focuses on is
that like the way that we havefocused on these histories have
let a lot of these women off thehook.
in doing that, like we miss,basically it's like another
plant analogy we miss, likewhere the weeds are left in the
(35:48):
garden.
katy (35:50):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (35:50):
we focus on this national level of things where it's like
the separated drinking fountainsor like the Rosa Parks sitting
on the bus
katy (36:00):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (36:00):
things being torn down, which is wonderful, like great
parts of our history, but we actlike that was a victory that
then we.
katy (36:12):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (36:14):
as a nation.
It is like we conquered that
katy (36:17):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (36:18):
when in reality we didn't at all, and
katy (36:21):
Yeah.
Mandy (36:22):
seeing that however
katy (36:24):
Oh my God,
Mandy (36:25):
later.
katy (36:26):
we, now that I've read this book and love it so much, I
feel like I am only gonna talkabout plants from now on out,
but I have this knot weed in thebackyard that is out of control
and it.
It's like the most impossibleweed to kill and you think
you've killed it.
And I swear to God this, it'slike a tuber and it just goes
(36:47):
underground for like feet andfeet, and then pops up like 40
feet away from where you thoughtyou had contained things.
That's how I feel like it iswith white women.
Supremacy is like, oh, you canput down three layers of.
Weed fabric and like glugroundup all over this place and
it's, they're gonna pop up,they're gonna find a way to pop
(37:10):
up and you're not gonnaunderstand where or when or how.
But like to think that it's goneis super naive.
Mandy (37:18):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Even when, I mean, and this whatthis book we'll get into, like
even when we're getting nationalvictories on, you know, getting
rid of Jim Crow laws, the VotingRights
katy (37:29):
Sure.
Mandy (37:29):
school
katy (37:30):
Sure.
Mandy (37:31):
These women who were so like.
Vocally against all of that didnot go away.
katy (37:37):
Right.
They didn't change their minds.
They didn't realize like, oh,we've been wrong.
Mandy (37:43):
They didn't
katy (37:44):
Right,
Mandy (37:45):
interactions in their communities.
katy (37:47):
Right.
Mandy (37:47):
just became more locally based, but in a way that it just
continued to imbue like thepsyche
katy (37:57):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (37:57):
the generations they were raising.
katy (38:00):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (38:01):
continues.
still continues on, like, and,the plant thing is perfect with
it because she ends herintroduction saying white women
were and remain segregation'sconstant gardeners.
katy (38:15):
Oh my God.
Mandy (38:19):
so excited to, I'm not excited, but I am
katy (38:24):
Well, I, but like eager to learn more
Mandy (38:27):
I
katy (38:28):
about that,
Mandy (38:29):
is our point, when we have talked about all
katy (38:31):
I.
Mandy (38:32):
whatever we have focused on in the past, like learning
these histories is a way torecognize the way that they are
still
katy (38:42):
Active.
Right,
Mandy (38:45):
that we can call it out for what it is
katy (38:48):
right,
Mandy (38:49):
that it does have very, very deep roots.
And then.
Try to mobilize in a way againstit.
This is the thing that's
katy (38:57):
right.
Mandy (38:58):
that we have touched on in the past is that like these
types of white women have beenso effective.
katy (39:06):
So, and I don't, there, it's hard to say that because I
am mad about it.
Like I, in a, in a, I'm madabout it ethically, but I'm also
mad about it in a competitiveway.
Like, God damn it,
Mandy (39:19):
better
katy (39:19):
are more effective on Exactly.
Like I, but here's what I'vethought about this a lot
actually.
We, yes, there's like acompetition, but we're operating
with very different rules andtools because if you don't give
a shit about being inclusive orlike not repeating the same
mistakes, that frees up you, youjust got like 56 yards ahead
(39:44):
because you don't have to like,you don't care.
So you are not worried about,like, that just
Mandy (39:51):
You
katy (39:51):
eliminates a lot of.
Mandy (39:53):
may affect
katy (39:55):
No.
Mandy (39:56):
Yeah.
katy (39:57):
Or if like the meeting that you're organizing is
accessible to every, you don'tcare.
That's the point.
So it's like, there it, thereare ways that if you are working
for liberation and justice andsovereignty, that task is
already set up to be just a morecomplex task than if you're
(40:20):
working towards like supremacyand genocide and hatred.
It's the difference between likeyour task is to destroy this
thing and your task is to buildthis thing.
That we have different tasksactually.
And so if they have a steamroller, it's like just keep
running the steam roller a bunchof times over this place and
(40:40):
like you're being successful.
It doesn't, it's not like ittakes that much versus not only
are we trying to build thisfragile, beautiful thing, we
also are trying to do it in away that prevents the steam
rollers from getting it.
Like that's just inherently likea way harder
Mandy (40:56):
Yeah.
katy (40:57):
You know?
Mandy (40:57):
absolutely.
I think that is for sure themajor prong of it.
And then I also think the steamroller crew is also run by
usually very privileged women.
katy (41:10):
They have a lot of money
Mandy (41:11):
They have,
katy (41:11):
Yes,
Mandy (41:11):
have
katy (41:12):
exactly.
Mandy (41:13):
And the rest of us are like,
katy (41:15):
Yes.
Mandy (41:16):
also still trying to feed our families and like survive
day to day.
And I'm not even talking aboutus'cause we are also very
katy (41:23):
No.
Exactly.
Mandy (41:24):
Other women that we would want to like, bring on this
journey and get their input andlike make sure we're including
like they're trying to survive.
katy (41:33):
Well, here's what I will say too.
Oh, for sure.
What's amazing to me is likethose are often the women who
are, who actually are what'slike, we don't have to organize
shit to bring people into.
They're already organizing.
If anything, it's like, how canwe.
Plug into movements.
And by we, I mean like
Mandy (41:52):
Yeah.
katy (41:52):
white women who have money and like what, you know, add to
the list of things that it's noteven about us.
Like I think if anything overthe years that we've been doing
this is learning how to be insolidarity, learning how to take
orders and listen to, and thenjust direct resources to
whatever the, the people who arebeing most affected want.
(42:13):
To have happen.
Like that's what makes sense.
And I know that that organizingis happening, and I know that
that's, but it, but it, you'reright, that it, it's like not
only for the, the people at theheart experiencing the
oppression, like who are evenfiguring out ways to still
organize and do things like it,it does take so much more, and
(42:38):
the risks are so much higher,like to.
Or to, to try to be committed tothat.
In a like police state system,you are risking so much more,
especially if you have anymarginalized identities.
Like, and then if you are like arich white lady with a lot of
(42:59):
time on your hands, like notonly do you have ample
resources, but if anything, ifanybody does like call you out
or there's like someconsequence, like what's the
consequence?
Mandy (43:10):
Mm-hmm.
katy (43:11):
I don't even know what it would be
Mandy (43:13):
Yeah.
katy (43:14):
point to the white woman who advocated for all this
horrible stuff who faced anysort of real consequence.
You know, like, I'm strugglingto think of one.
It's just yeah.
I It's
Mandy (43:26):
deck is stacked
katy (43:27):
just the deck.
The deck, exactly.
The deck is very uneven
Mandy (43:31):
Mm-hmm.
katy (43:32):
for sure.
Mandy (43:32):
Yeah.
katy (43:33):
Mm.
Mandy (43:34):
Well, that's where we're going.
So
katy (43:38):
Hmm, great.
I can't wait.
So
Mandy (43:41):
to talk about.
katy (43:42):
yes, it would be awesome if people would want to get a
copy of this book the Mothers ofMassive Resistance and read
along with us.
I think our plan is just to kindof take it chapter by chapter
Mandy (43:55):
Mm-hmm.
katy (43:56):
ideally I would love to reach out to the author to see
if she would wanna talk with us.
That would be amazing.
Mandy (44:02):
I was remembering when we were talking to Stephanie Jones
Rogers, I think it was her, whosaid she's friends with
katy (44:11):
I think she mentioned it, Ann Hassan, Kwame Jeffries, who
we talked to also mentioned, andI think that the world of
historians who study this stuffis not very big.
I would love to be able to pickher brain and just hear about
what brought her to thisresearch even.
I'm always really interested inwhy people have questions about
this in the first place and wantto notice it, and what the
(44:33):
reaction has been to themwanting to poke around in these
spaces.
I'm
Mandy (44:38):
input on how she sees all of this in the context of our
current politics and.
katy (44:44):
mm-hmm.
Mandy (44:44):
What's going on right now, so that'll be good.
I like
katy (44:47):
Well, I can't wait.
Mandy (44:49):
episodes.
katy (44:50):
I think it helps keep us like more, it, it holds us to,
to a more even march throughmaterial.
So we'll be Yeah, I, I'll say wepromise, but who knows anymore.
We'll, uh, Okay.
that Sounds good.
I'll talk to you soon.
Mandy (45:11):
okay.
Bye.
katy (45:13):
Bye.
Hi, this is Mandy Griffin.
(00:01):
And I'm Katie Swalwell, andwelcome to our Dirty Laundry,
stories of white ladies making amess of things and how we need
to clean up our act.
Mandy (00:14):
We're here.
katy (00:15):
Okay.
Mandy (00:16):
We always say that we're gonna get back into this, and
it's gonna be like this.
We're gonna do it.
And then it's like three
katy (00:23):
Every week.
I know May.
I'm hoping that that's howeveryone's life feels right now.
Where has it been?
Three months, or has it beenthree days?
Who knows?
Who can tell?
Who can be.
Sure.
That's kind of how the rhythm ofmy life feels anyway.
And I know you're in the sameboat.
So Yes.
Like we we're still here and westill think about these things
and we're still mad, I guess.
Mandy (00:46):
I'm just hoping that I can get through the next three
and a half years in this semidissociative state
katy (00:53):
I know.
Mandy (00:54):
Did it not happen?
We survived?
katy (00:56):
What, what day is it?
What year is it?
What month is it?
I mean, I really, and part ofthis too, and we've talked about
this before, is I think us justbeing middle aged also and like
parents of younger kids, likepre-teen kids, and.
Also perimenopausal, like mydisassociative state could be
(01:17):
for lots of reasons, let's putit that way.
So it's hard to pin it down andit's kind of all happening at
once.
But I, I don't know.
And I never wanna organize mylife around presidential terms.
'cause that just feels like astupid waste of time to do it
that way and makes it soundlike, oh, once he's gone,
everything will be better.
Which is not the case, which Iknow.
(01:37):
We know.
I know.
We know, I know.
Mandy (01:39):
Mm-hmm.
katy (01:39):
So, yeah, I'm just, we were just talking with friends
last night about how both myhusband and I are taking breaks
from the news.
Like you just, and then we feelguilty about it, but also just
for our mental health.
Like I can't be that hyperfixated on everything because
that just is not helpful.
So it's, I don't know, we talkabout this all the time whenever
(02:00):
we record, like how are youtrying to make sense of the
deluge of garba?
And it's just very.
Mandy (02:08):
Yes.
katy (02:09):
Hard.
Mandy (02:10):
Yes.
katy (02:10):
then there's like local things happening that are very
real and there are things thatcan be done about those very
local things, and that feelslike a better place to put my
energy and time.
Mandy (02:22):
Yes.
But we are gonna get, we do havea plan.
Of what we want to do next,
katy (02:28):
Yes.
Mandy (02:29):
which we're gonna talk about.
But I also realize that we havenot wrapped up what we were
talking about before,
katy (02:36):
Yeah.
Mandy (02:37):
which is all of Trump's women,
katy (02:40):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (02:42):
It's so painful that I'm just like, I can't, I can't give
any more of my mind space tothese people, but they
continually keep showing up onour screens.
It's like they're becoming moreand more central.
katy (02:56):
I was gonna say.
It's like it's impossible tokeep up because I'm even
thinking of Christie Nome andlike her escalation of things.
It just, it's like the minute,even if we recorded this podcast
every day, we wouldn't be ableto keep up with the escalation
of horrors and I, I'm, I'mpronouncing that horrors, but I
(03:19):
think you could use another wordthat sounds much more like that.
But it just, it's impossible tokeep up.
That's basically just all it is.
Mandy (03:26):
this little like quote on an Instagram meme that said, the
first time I heard aboutChristie Nome, it was her
admitting to killing her dog,and it's only gone downhill from
there.
katy (03:38):
It's so true.
Mandy (03:41):
how
katy (03:42):
I cannot
Mandy (03:43):
horrifying thing about this
katy (03:45):
That's what I mean about space and time.
It's like, oh, we were at thisreally horrible spot and then I
turn around and that spot islike 72 miles away and I'm like,
wait, what?
That used to be the new low.
Where, what's this now?
Where are we now?
Mandy (04:00):
I know,
katy (04:01):
I, it's so disorienting.
So, yes.
I feel that.
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (04:06):
like Pam Bondy, who we did talk about all over the
place
katy (04:09):
Yes.
Mandy (04:10):
like my son spends.
Way too much time watching,other people play video games on
YouTube these videos areinterrupted by commercials all
of the time.
katy (04:20):
Okay.
Mandy (04:21):
swear to you, half of the commercials are Pam Bondy on the
TV talking about how like if youare illegal and if you're
breaking the law, you will notget away with it.
They are coming for you.
katy (04:33):
You know what's wild?
I think that is reallyinteresting about.
Thinking of where they're buyingad space.
And it doesn't surprise me thatit would be on like, dude, bro,
video streaming YouTubechannels.
Like that makes sense.
I was on a work trip recentlyand I don't ever watch tv.
We don't, we just watch like.
Shows on streaming, and socommercials are just not
(04:55):
something that come across mylike
Mandy (04:58):
Existence.
katy (05:00):
My existence.
Even my kids like, we'll go to ahotel and they're, or like.
My in-laws will be at a hotel.
We'll go visit them or somethingand the TV will be on and
commercials will be playing.
And my kids are absolutelyfascinated.
They're like this, I wanna watchthis show.
What is this?
They, they want, they're like,so invested.
And that makes me nervous.
They're like little baby wildanimals that have been raised in
(05:23):
captivity and then are gonna beput out in the wild and just
immediately eaten becausethey've never been exposed to
any threat or danger.
They have no awareness ofadvertisements, you know, I need
to beef up their, their skillsat being able to interpret that
and like know when they're beingmarketed to.
But anyway, there, so I was in ahotel lobby and there it was,
(05:45):
the TV was on, and the localnews.
Like it was a local news programand so this, these commercials
were playing and it was likemattress commercial or whatever,
just like the boring, normalstuff.
And then it was a commercial,but this was Christie Nome.
And it was like, I am, you know,thanks to our wonderful
(06:05):
president that we're crackingdown immigration.
And it was one of those like,we're coming from you, like
we're coming for you.
Get out commercials.
And I was like.
What the actual fuck ishappening right now.
Like, how is this a commercialthat the, like, how is this even
legal?
Like I was so confused andweirded out and just, it just
(06:27):
felt so strange.
And then I, you know, like putit on the list of like weird,
strange things that I have a lotof questions and concerns about,
honestly,
Mandy (06:36):
like fear and terrorizing.
Of immigrant groups and I thinkabout all these poor, children
of immigrants that are
katy (06:44):
Oh my God.
Mandy (06:45):
the ones
katy (06:46):
Oh my God.
Mandy (06:48):
and like it just seems so mean.
So much of it is
katy (06:52):
It's so, it is, so it's all.
Cruelty based.
I mean that that is what it,it's like it, I know we've
talked about this word before,but the idea of macropolitics
like that just, it is a politicsbased on fear, cruelty and
death,
Mandy (07:09):
Mm-hmm.
katy (07:10):
And that's the foundation of it.
So that's where we get this.
It's wild.
Mandy (07:15):
Yeah.
The only other one that I wantedto bring up that we had gone
over is when we talked aboutTrump's initial appointee for
surgeon General being Jeanette,nwa,
katy (07:27):
Oh, yeah,
Mandy (07:28):
and
katy (07:29):
yeah.
Yeah.
Mandy (07:29):
now she's just like.
Off the table, they, where theywithdrew her nomination and who
they replaced it with.
So first of all, why thathappened, there's not a lot of
details on except for that.
People started questioning I.
OTs credentials becauseapparently on her LinkedIn, she
lists that she got her MD fromthe University of Arkansas, but
(07:54):
that's not true.
katy (07:55):
God.
Mandy (07:56):
she went to school at the American University of the
Caribbean in St.
Martin.
katy (08:02):
Okay.
Mandy (08:02):
did complete her residency at U of A, but it's
like very, sleazy, I guess, Idunno
katy (08:12):
Like shady.
There's something shady.
Mandy (08:15):
did not, she did not get her medical degree from there.
Like you can say you
katy (08:19):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (08:19):
there,
katy (08:20):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (08:20):
but
katy (08:21):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (08:21):
your medical degree from the American University of the
Caribbean, which fine
katy (08:25):
Right, but just say that
Mandy (08:27):
but don't lie about it.
So they thought that was gonnabe a problem during your
confirmation.
katy (08:33):
honestly, the fact that she does actually have a medical
degree from anywhere is such ahuge benefit to anything.
Like that's how low the bar is.
It's like, oh, but she is anactual medical trained doctor.
Mandy (08:45):
But here's the thing.
So the person that she wasreplaced with, Casey means does
technically have a medicaldegree.
She went to Stanford MedicalSchool.
Great
katy (08:59):
Okay.
Mandy (09:00):
but she never finished her residency and never
practiced as a physician.
katy (09:06):
What's her?
Mandy (09:07):
during her residency she just got very disillusioned by
the American medical system,which, same babe?
katy (09:14):
so.
Mandy (09:16):
I am.
I get, I get it.
Like, and so she just quit inher residency and then focused
on becoming basically thisinfluencer, which, she's most
well known for a book she wrotethat came out in the last couple
of years I think called GoodEnergy.
(09:36):
And I will fully admit, Idownloaded it on Audible before
she became very well known.
And before she definitely,before she was nominated for
this position and more came outabout her views.
And I've, I haven't finished it.
I have listened to a lot of itand I'm not Some of her basic
(09:57):
premises, like lot of her stuffis just rooted in that we have
all this metabolic dysfunctionin individuals due to like the
horrific diets and likesedentary lifestyle that we
katy (10:09):
Hmm.
Mandy (10:10):
tend to live, and that is like a root cause of chronic
disease, which is true.
katy (10:15):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (10:16):
there's, you can't really find fault in that line of
argument.
katy (10:21):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (10:21):
And it would be so nice if that was more of a focus of
medical education because it isnot like there is not, you may
get like your lecture one day inschool about nutrition
katy (10:34):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (10:35):
a focus of medical education whatsoever.
Definitely not a focus whenyou're treating people,
especially not in the er,legitimately, we have been told
to not even tell people thattheir problems could be due to
their weight because people getoffended and then they write
katy (10:52):
Mm
Mandy (10:53):
So if they come in with knee pain or uncontrolled
diabetes or whatever, like
katy (10:59):
mm.
Mandy (11:00):
literally the powers that be don't even want you to bring
up weight as part of thatproblem'cause it's offensive.
So there's a huge problem.
I, I totally agree on that.
When it comes to where she kindof got disillusioned with the
American medical system, butthen she goes off the rails on
(11:21):
so many things, like somehowthat goes into where she then
ends up endorsing the healthbenefits of raw milk and.
katy (11:29):
No.
Mandy (11:30):
Yes.
has said that birth controlpills are overprescribed and
signal a disrespect for humanlife.
And I'm like, no.
Why?
But why?
Why can't you just stick areally legitimate argument that
has a lot to it that could go,you know.
(11:51):
A lot of places and actuallyhelp people and then you have to
go to this bullshit.
And then she also calls thevaccine schedule for children
insane
katy (12:00):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (12:01):
mandates are criminal.
katy (12:03):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (12:03):
so no.
katy (12:05):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (12:06):
Like
katy (12:06):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (12:07):
from, we got rid of a woman fibbed a little bit on her
medical education training
katy (12:16):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (12:16):
who's not even a real doctor
katy (12:19):
am so curious why with the first nominee, like given.
The massive heaps of bullshitaround every person in this
administration.
Why that would nick her in anyway.
You know what I'm saying?
Like that's holding her to sucha quaint, antiquated standard
that nobody else seems to givetwo shits about in this
(12:40):
administration.
Like why would that matter?
Mandy (12:42):
There
katy (12:43):
It may
Mandy (12:43):
There must be something else behind it,
katy (12:45):
right.
Mandy (12:45):
gotta be something we don't know.
Because we, when we talked abouther, there's something about her
brother-in-law has been inTrump's sphere for a long time
and does stuff for
katy (12:55):
Hmm.
Mandy (12:55):
he's actually like, he's the un appointee now.
I don't know if there's somefamily stuff going on or
katy (13:03):
Hmm.
Mandy (13:03):
other dirt.
They didn't want dredged up.
Like who knows, but that's whatthey said.
But you're totally right.
Like to attack her credentialslike that when
katy (13:12):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (13:13):
all of
katy (13:14):
Or to get or to, or if people are raising critiques,
it's like, why would they careeither?
It just doesn't seem like any ofthat matters in any other
Mandy (13:24):
Yeah.
katy (13:24):
circumstances.
So that is a curious thing.
Mandy (13:27):
influence too, because Casey means was an
katy (13:30):
Mm
Mandy (13:30):
to RFK on his presidential nomination.
And so
katy (13:34):
Okay.
Mandy (13:34):
he's the health secretary, maybe he was like,
no,
katy (13:37):
Right.
Mandy (13:38):
I
katy (13:38):
I want this person.
Mandy (13:39):
And when Trump was questioned about the nomination.
basically people are like, butdo you know she's not even an
actual doctor.
His response was basically like,well, Robert likes her and he
said she was gonna be good.
So it's
katy (13:54):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (13:54):
Trump doesn't know Jack shit about her
katy (13:57):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (13:57):
Sure, do whatever you want, Robert.
katy (13:59):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (14:00):
that happened.
So, but she's also not, she hasnot been confirmed yet.
There's still not even a hearingon the books for her
confirmation.
So we'll see how all that goes.
But then I was like.
How are we six months into this?
And we don't have evenscheduled, but apparently that's
not that big of a thing to nothave that nailed down because
(14:22):
one of Obama's nominees, VivekMurthy, took like 17 months to
get through
katy (14:27):
Hmm.
Mandy (14:28):
I guess so,
katy (14:29):
Oh geez.
Mandy (14:30):
weird.
I don't
katy (14:31):
It is.
I don't understand it either.
Well, that's interesting.
I mean, I think what's, likethis to me is the reasons that
we should not be cutting budgetsfor science research right now.
The way that all the budgets arebeing slashed for all different
kinds of research projects,science is, constantly
(14:53):
uncovering new things.
I'm reading this book right nowthat I love so much.
It's so well written and it'ssuper fascinating.
It's called The Light Eaters andit's about cutting edge plant
science and what they're findingout about plants.
That's really, reallyfascinating.
And it's also just a like, thewoman who's writing it is a
science writer.
(15:13):
She, that's her beat for areally long time.
And so just kind of writingabout the nature of scientists
themselves and how science tendsto be super conservative.
Not in a political sense, butvery unwilling to.
Shift what is considered commonsense about things until they
have a preponderance of evidenceto say yes, in fact this other
(15:34):
thing is right and just thelimits of that, but also the
benefits of that being theapproach to science.
And it's a beautiful book if youwanna have your mind blown.
I texted a friend and I waslike.
I have not been reading thisbook high, but I feel like I
might as well be because I keephaving these thoughts and I'm
like, man, this is amazing.
It's just, it really isincredible.
(15:55):
I've always loved trees.
I think they're amazing.
It is just a really fascinatingthing about just how incredible
plants are and how they work.
But a lot of it like with thisone chapter, this is, I'm so far
afield right now, but I.
Swear, I'm making a connection.
This one chapter is about thisvine that can change itself to
mimic the plants around it, tothe point where it can change
(16:18):
how many frons it has on itsleaves and whether it has thorns
or not.
Like it can, it can literallylike.
Mutate enough to mimic somethingso well, and it's not something
that's evolved over generations.
It's like it can literally do itin like a month with a plant
it's never met before, which is,they said it's the equivalent of
(16:39):
like a human hung out with arhino and then developed like a
horn to look like a rhino.
That's the level of likewildness that's happening.
And so one of the theories abouthow that is happening is that.
It has to do with the bacteriathat live inside the plants and
the way that they turn genes onor off, and that maybe the
(16:59):
bacteria that live inside thisvine are really good at.
Getting information from thebacteria that live in the other
plants and then are just likeprogramming their plant to do
whatever the neighbor plant isdoing from these bacteria.
And there it links to a lot ofcutting edge science about
humans and our biomes and theway that the bacteria that live
(17:20):
inside of us actually have likeway more control and power over
our lives than a lot of otherthings.
And that our nutrition.
Related to how we are feedingthe bacteria or not feeding
back, like it, it's allconnected and just how this is
like under studied and we'rejust starting to learn more
about this.
(17:41):
All of this is to say that ifyou have, like I, I am curious
about the world and I knowenough to know that we know so
little about how things work,but there are things we do know.
Yeah, that is real.
And I still do believe in liketrying to figure things out in
(18:02):
some kind of systematic,thoughtful way.
And I don't think that alwaysmeans like in super sterile
labs, this book gets into thattoo about like all different
kinds of ways to do science.
But that still, they all arescience in some ways.
So when you have people who, I,to your point that there are
these like, Hey, the, thismedical system is, is a hot
(18:25):
mess.
Yes.
We have limited science on X, Y,and Z.
Like, correct.
I'm with, I'm there for that.
But then to have the next.
Point that you connect to it tobe like, therefore let's do this
thing.
That is where I fall off.
I have a lot of questions I amcurious about a lot.
(18:45):
I am humble enough to know thatwe don't know everything and
that new evidence is emergingall of the time and, and yet
like.
I don't understand theconclusions that some of these
folks are reaching, and I willalso call massive bullshit on
some of them when I know thatthey actually don't believe what
(19:06):
they're saying
Mandy (19:07):
Right.
katy (19:07):
and that it's to just profit
Mandy (19:09):
They're
katy (19:09):
some way.
Mandy (19:10):
They're just
katy (19:11):
They're grifting.
That's exactly right.
It's so disingenuous and so.
Insidious that I get reallyangry.
You know, you're full of shit.
Mandy (19:20):
That's why I get so pissed off about the whole trad
wife bullshit thing
katy (19:24):
Your criticisms are
Mandy (19:26):
like it,
katy (19:27):
the grind culture is not working for anyone.
Yes.
Like I am with you on all ofthese things and I like freshly
baked bread.
Great.
That's yes.
Mandy (19:36):
But you also see how it draws people in.
katy (19:41):
A hundred percent
Mandy (19:42):
like, I
katy (19:42):
disaffected.
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (19:44):
And
katy (19:45):
Yes.
Mandy (19:46):
they just end up going down these rabbit holes with
them and like buying full intoit.
And that's where I don't get it.
I'm
katy (19:52):
Yes, yes.
Mandy (19:54):
How do you not see that this is taken like a sharp turn?
katy (19:59):
A sharp turn and that the person leading you off that
cliff is themselves not goingoff that cliff, and they're
making a shit ton of money offof people taking that sharp
turn.
Like that's the part where I'mlike, wake up.
Like I don't disagree that therearen't these fundamental
problems, but why are wefollowing these assholes who.
(20:19):
Aren't themselves doing thesethings.
They're like, we, I mean,there's so much.
We always say this, that there'slike a million years we could do
this podcast and it would neverrun out of content.
Mandy (20:29):
Yep.
katy (20:29):
But these, like, there's one influencer, I cannot think
of her name right now, but she'sall about like a paleo lifestyle
and this, analysis that I wasseeing was trying to break down
her arguments.
It was basically teaching peoplehow to use logic to dismantle
and recognize what it is thatthis influencer is doing and how
they're trying to take thesescientific nuggets and then take
(20:50):
these hard turns to make youthink that what they're saying.
Is true.
And then how they're likeseducing you into buying all of
their marketing and packagingyou their products and selling
and it just as a way to makemoney.
It's absolutely a grift.
Mandy (21:02):
Yep.
katy (21:03):
so that should be another like white women.
Grifters could be like a wholeother
Mandy (21:08):
Oh boy.
katy (21:09):
Yes.
Mandy (21:10):
some candidates?
katy (21:11):
So many.
Oh my God.
Mandy (21:14):
maybe that'll be the next thing.
But we
katy (21:16):
Okay.
Mandy (21:17):
got to do the moms.
We have to talk about the moms.
katy (21:20):
Wait, before we get into the mom intro, speaking that she
is a mom.
So I guess this is someone whokind of connects all of these
dots.
I just wanna note the fact thatsince we have last talked that
Joni Ernst was at a town halland made this comment that.
The people were really upset andfrustrated about Medicaid cuts
(21:43):
and somebody is like, they'rekind of, you can watch the video
online.
Somebody kind of shouts out fromthe back, like, people are going
to die.
Mandy (21:50):
Yeah.
katy (21:50):
And her reply was, well, we, we'll, we are all going to
die.
So I guess like being from I, Ilive in Iowa.
You grew up in Iowa.
This is how we have known andloved each other for most of our
lives.
What, when you heard that, whatwas your.
Response or thoughts?
Mandy (22:09):
I mean, from her I was like, standard, you know, like
not, she's an evil human beings,so, but it's just.
So misses the point like, yeah,we're all gonna die, but that
doesn't mean we go out and likeall jump off a cliff today or
(22:31):
like that you do things that aregoing to speed that along.
katy (22:38):
Right, right.
Like disproportionately speedthat along for vulnerable groups
of people.
That's the macropolitics of it.
Like if we're all gonna die,then what matters about anything
actually, like if that's yourconclusion, like why bother with
literally anything, then
Mandy (22:57):
her follow up video,
katy (22:58):
well I've got, yes, I did see that all, which also I've
like.
This is what I mean about beingso disoriented, because that one
thing was bad enough and I wasstill trying to process that
when she posts this quoteapology video, which is just
absolute sarcasm and kind of herattempt to be like trolley you,
like cool, a cool troll, Iguess.
(23:19):
And so she.
Mandy (23:20):
a cemetery, right?
katy (23:23):
Yes, it's like a first person cam, like she's walking
through what looks to be acemetery
Mandy (23:27):
Yeah.
katy (23:28):
at one point she says I made an incorrect assumption
that everyone in the auditoriumunderstood that yes, we are all
going to perish from this earth.
So I apologize and I'm really,really glad that I did not have
to bring up the subject of thetooth fairy as well.
It's so like, I just am so.
Oh, perplexed at how it, it isthat really what she think, like
(23:52):
I'm just trying to make sense oflike, does she really believe
what she's saying in this likesarcastic apology video that
does she really believe thatthat person who yelled that out
Mandy (24:04):
Didn't
katy (24:04):
didn't
Mandy (24:05):
people
katy (24:05):
think people are gonna like, do you actually think
that, or do you like I that youcannot actually believe that?
What, what is going on?
What is happening?
It's just, it's just sodisorienting.
I like, I've had massiveproblems with this senator for
such a long time, partly becauseshe, herself is a victim.
(24:28):
She has written about this in abook about being a survivor of
domestic violence and a survivorof sexual assault, and then goes
on to support a president whohas been.
You know, convicted not of, butof like, oh yeah, there's a
reality there that this is whathe did like there.
And then also supported BrettKavanaugh and also supported
(24:51):
like it's just so wild to methat someone can, can set aside.
I just, I cannot make heads ortails of it.
And so this happens and it like,I really cannot.
Understand a, a politics that'sbased on getting people to care
(25:14):
less about each other.
Mandy (25:17):
Mm-hmm.
katy (25:19):
That's, that is what is happening.
And I am, I cannot understandjust like from a, like an
ethical point of view, how youget yourself there, but also
like why that seems like theright way to go.
Also does not make sense to me.
So I'm just, I'm reallystruggling.
(25:40):
And of course, she's a mom,she's a daughter who's in her
twenties.
And, and that, I think that's,she's the, she's the first woman
to get elected to represent Iowain the federal government.
She's the first woman in federalgovernment to have been a
veteran who served in combat.
Like there are, she is this kindof nexus of like, oh, the like,
(26:03):
like a way to use her motherhoodas a vehicle for these politics,
but it just is so the oppositeof how I have understood the
role of mothering.
It just is the opposite of that.
It's like for me, if I had todefine mothering, it would be
helping to care for people andgetting them to care for each
(26:25):
other.
That's literally how I woulddescribe it.
Like at its core, and this is apolitics that's like care less.
Do less caring.
Mandy (26:35):
Yeah,
katy (26:36):
So I don't know what that's, it's like the anti
mothering politics,
Mandy (26:40):
for it's so, and I mean, we're gonna get into all of
that.
I mean, it does transition verywell into what we're gonna talk
about next because there issomething like protective in
isolationism, I think.
I feel like that's where their
katy (26:56):
I guess, of like whoever you can draw that circle around.
Mandy (26:59):
Yeah.
katy (27:00):
Then that like it's us versus them, I guess.
But it just like, I can't evenfigure out who is in the US
circle at this point.
Like I, that's what I'mstruggling to figure out.
You keep drawing that circletighter and tighter, and then
who's left in it even.
Mandy (27:18):
Yeah, no, for sure.
Well, we'll see.
Hopefully this book is
katy (27:23):
Hopefully we don't see.
Oh my God.
Mandy (27:26):
I mean,
katy (27:26):
By the way, this plant book has an answer to this also,
like I cannot rave enough aboutthe book, the Light Eaters, but
there's plant research thatshows when you plant that, that
plants have personalities even,and when you the way that
they've been geneticallymodifying plants is to
basically.
They assumed that if they blbred the most aggressive plants
(27:50):
that like kind of seek out allthe sunshine over any other
plants and compete really hardagainst other plants, that's
what they were breeding for.
But what they found is thatactually leads to lower yields,
to lower crop yields.
That what you want, that whatleads to the biggest bounty are
plants that engage in mutualaid.
Mandy (28:09):
Mm-hmm.
katy (28:10):
you do, there are plant, like that is a plant personality
and that is something that someplants do really, really well.
And then there's superinteresting research about
plants engaging in mutual aidwith their kin that they're
genetically related to more thanlike plants that they're not
directly.
Like there's really fascinatingstuff, but I think like that
(28:32):
there is something about life,just any kind of life and.
What helps life thrive and whatdoes not help life thrive.
And so that even just at like abasic existence level, I don't
understand, like life doesn'tthrive when you are like
(28:53):
aggressively competing to stampeverything else out.
So I don't even understand itfrom like an evolutionary point
of view actually.
Mandy (29:00):
yeah,
katy (29:02):
Anyway, that's where I'm at.
At a like a level of like.
Physics and existence.
I'm trying to understand, butyes.
Let's, let's shift into theseason.
We started, God knows how longago about motherhood and its
relationship to settlercolonialism, and I know we're
gonna get into that more.
(29:23):
But talk about where we're gonnastart with this.
Dive into motherhood.
Mandy (29:27):
So we're gonna start with a book by Elizabeth Gillespie
McCray called
katy (29:34):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (29:34):
Massive Resistance.
And I know we have had this onour radar for a long time
because this book has
katy (29:40):
A long time.
Mandy (29:40):
bookshelf for at least the past couple of years.
I mean, it was.
First printed in 2018, so, andnow we're in 2025.
I don't know how that happened.
katy (29:52):
Oh my God.
You just said 2018.
I was like, oh.
So two years ago, I literallyjust thought in my head, that
was two years ago.
That's how disoriented I am.
Yes.
Mandy (30:02):
stuck in 2020 forever.
We've never gotten over it.
katy (30:05):
Our brains broke.
Yeah.
Yes.
Mandy (30:08):
so it's called Mothers of Massive Resistance, and it's
particularly the subtitle isWhite Women and the Politics of
White Supremacy,
katy (30:17):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (30:18):
is just right up our alley.
It's basically what we do.
katy (30:21):
This is catnip.
Whoever came up with this titlewas probably like, there's gonna
be these two girls who gab aboutWhite Lady Shittiness.
Let's target market to them.
Mandy (30:33):
So the whole book is basically focusing, I think it
focuses on four different womenand kind of their activism in
the space of reinforcing whitesupremacy through like white
womanhood and mothering.
Talks about in the introductionabout how a lot of our.
(30:55):
History that maybe what the mostof us know about, like women in
politics either focuses on thesixties and seventies with
feminism
katy (31:03):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (31:05):
back at the time of Brown versus the Board of Education
School desegregation in the1950s and the black and white
pictures that we've all seen oflike the white women protesting
and screaming and like shoutinghorrific things at these poor.
Little children of color tryingto integrate schools,
katy (31:26):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (31:26):
and the whole history of school integration.
But her basic thesis is thatthis has actually been going on
for so much longer than that.
katy (31:38):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (31:38):
1950s reaction to the Brown Supreme Court ruling was
rooted in generations of whitemothering before that.
katy (31:49):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (31:50):
And we've talked about it even like in the way that white
women were involved in publicschool education curriculum
after the Civil War to reframe,
katy (32:01):
of the Confederacy, right?
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (32:03):
And reframing public education after that to make all
of that same.
Less horrific than it was.
I don't know, some way to
katy (32:12):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (32:12):
Set up all of the Confederate generals as like
heroes and all
katy (32:17):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (32:17):
So we've talked about some of that,
katy (32:20):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (32:20):
of in to how integral white, white women have been
politics of white supremacy andsegregation and how all of that.
At the individual level, like inthese community levels then
translates into nationalpolitics.
katy (32:42):
Hmm.
Mandy (32:43):
and how it has been a very strong thread for a long
time and it's, it's reallyinteresting to think about
because like white women do flyunder the radar, I think.
katy (32:56):
Yeah.
Mandy (32:57):
On their involvement in all of this.
Like we blame white men for alot of things.
And don't get me wrong, they areup there
katy (33:08):
No.
Mandy (33:09):
white women, it's even like a, I don't know.
There just seems to be somethingmeaner about.
katy (33:17):
Hmm.
Mandy (33:18):
Women's involvement in this?
Just something more like,because it's more personal, I
guess.
Because it does seem more likeon a, taking that role of
nurturing and turning it into
katy (33:32):
corrupting it.
Perverting it.
Well, and I think too, there's.
Like again, I'm also not lettingcis hat rich white men off the
line do not interpret it likethis, but there's a part of me
that kind of feels like, gosh,you just have no way in
personally to understanding, Iknow you can, and I want you to
(33:53):
get there, but I feel likethere's a certain expectation
that white women are knowingly.
Because they are experiencingmisogyny or sexism or the
patriarchy.
Like they're, they should be insolidarity in all these ways.
But they aren't.
And I say they when really weshould say we.
(34:13):
I don't know.
I always wonder about ourpronoun use whenever we talk
about all this history, but it'slike, you should know better.
It's almost like I expect,again, I'm not letting maga.
Like Trump off the hook,
Mandy (34:28):
Mm-hmm.
katy (34:29):
has never pretended to be anything else but like an utter,
Mandy (34:33):
Trash
katy (34:34):
like absolute like empty void.
Right?
Like that's, and so I'm almostlike I have more disrespect for
the people who I really do thinkknow better, but are making this
bargain knowingly.
It's like a special place in myheart to hate them, you know,
because like they should knowbetter.
(34:55):
So I, there's something aboutthat it makes me think of when
we talk to Stephanie JonesRogers about her book with white
women who enslaved people andjust like the absolute,
creativity that they exhibitedin their cruelty and the ways
that because of the patriarchalways that history has been
(35:16):
written, that got erased orhidden or attributed and
ascribed to men in a way thatlet women kind of like sneak,
sneak by.
Mandy (35:26):
Which is a lot of what her introduction focuses on is
that like the way that we havefocused on these histories have
let a lot of these women off thehook.
in doing that, like we miss,basically it's like another
plant analogy we miss, likewhere the weeds are left in the
(35:48):
garden.
katy (35:50):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (35:50):
we focus on this national level of things where it's like
the separated drinking fountainsor like the Rosa Parks sitting
on the bus
katy (36:00):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (36:00):
things being torn down, which is wonderful, like great
parts of our history, but we actlike that was a victory that
then we.
katy (36:12):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (36:14):
as a nation.
It is like we conquered that
katy (36:17):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (36:18):
when in reality we didn't at all, and
katy (36:21):
Yeah.
Mandy (36:22):
seeing that however
katy (36:24):
Oh my God,
Mandy (36:25):
later.
katy (36:26):
we, now that I've read this book and love it so much, I
feel like I am only gonna talkabout plants from now on out,
but I have this knot weed in thebackyard that is out of control
and it.
It's like the most impossibleweed to kill and you think
you've killed it.
And I swear to God this, it'slike a tuber and it just goes
(36:47):
underground for like feet andfeet, and then pops up like 40
feet away from where you thoughtyou had contained things.
That's how I feel like it iswith white women.
Supremacy is like, oh, you canput down three layers of.
Weed fabric and like glugroundup all over this place and
it's, they're gonna pop up,they're gonna find a way to pop
(37:10):
up and you're not gonnaunderstand where or when or how.
But like to think that it's goneis super naive.
Mandy (37:18):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Even when, I mean, and this whatthis book we'll get into, like
even when we're getting nationalvictories on, you know, getting
rid of Jim Crow laws, the VotingRights
katy (37:29):
Sure.
Mandy (37:29):
school
katy (37:30):
Sure.
Mandy (37:31):
These women who were so like.
Vocally against all of that didnot go away.
katy (37:37):
Right.
They didn't change their minds.
They didn't realize like, oh,we've been wrong.
Mandy (37:43):
They didn't
katy (37:44):
Right,
Mandy (37:45):
interactions in their communities.
katy (37:47):
Right.
Mandy (37:47):
just became more locally based, but in a way that it just
continued to imbue like thepsyche
katy (37:57):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (37:57):
the generations they were raising.
katy (38:00):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (38:01):
continues.
still continues on, like, and,the plant thing is perfect with
it because she ends herintroduction saying white women
were and remain segregation'sconstant gardeners.
katy (38:15):
Oh my God.
Mandy (38:19):
so excited to, I'm not excited, but I am
katy (38:24):
Well, I, but like eager to learn more
Mandy (38:27):
I
katy (38:28):
about that,
Mandy (38:29):
is our point, when we have talked about all
katy (38:31):
I.
Mandy (38:32):
whatever we have focused on in the past, like learning
these histories is a way torecognize the way that they are
still
katy (38:42):
Active.
Right,
Mandy (38:45):
that we can call it out for what it is
katy (38:48):
right,
Mandy (38:49):
that it does have very, very deep roots.
And then.
Try to mobilize in a way againstit.
This is the thing that's
katy (38:57):
right.
Mandy (38:58):
that we have touched on in the past is that like these
types of white women have beenso effective.
katy (39:06):
So, and I don't, there, it's hard to say that because I
am mad about it.
Like I, in a, in a, I'm madabout it ethically, but I'm also
mad about it in a competitiveway.
Like, God damn it,
Mandy (39:19):
better
katy (39:19):
are more effective on Exactly.
Like I, but here's what I'vethought about this a lot
actually.
We, yes, there's like acompetition, but we're operating
with very different rules andtools because if you don't give
a shit about being inclusive orlike not repeating the same
mistakes, that frees up you, youjust got like 56 yards ahead
(39:44):
because you don't have to like,you don't care.
So you are not worried about,like, that just
Mandy (39:51):
You
katy (39:51):
eliminates a lot of.
Mandy (39:53):
may affect
katy (39:55):
No.
Mandy (39:56):
Yeah.
katy (39:57):
Or if like the meeting that you're organizing is
accessible to every, you don'tcare.
That's the point.
So it's like, there it, thereare ways that if you are working
for liberation and justice andsovereignty, that task is
already set up to be just a morecomplex task than if you're
(40:20):
working towards like supremacyand genocide and hatred.
It's the difference between likeyour task is to destroy this
thing and your task is to buildthis thing.
That we have different tasksactually.
And so if they have a steamroller, it's like just keep
running the steam roller a bunchof times over this place and
(40:40):
like you're being successful.
It doesn't, it's not like ittakes that much versus not only
are we trying to build thisfragile, beautiful thing, we
also are trying to do it in away that prevents the steam
rollers from getting it.
Like that's just inherently likea way harder
Mandy (40:56):
Yeah.
katy (40:57):
You know?
Mandy (40:57):
absolutely.
I think that is for sure themajor prong of it.
And then I also think the steamroller crew is also run by
usually very privileged women.
katy (41:10):
They have a lot of money
Mandy (41:11):
They have,
katy (41:11):
Yes,
Mandy (41:11):
have
katy (41:12):
exactly.
Mandy (41:13):
And the rest of us are like,
katy (41:15):
Yes.
Mandy (41:16):
also still trying to feed our families and like survive
day to day.
And I'm not even talking aboutus'cause we are also very
katy (41:23):
No.
Exactly.
Mandy (41:24):
Other women that we would want to like, bring on this
journey and get their input andlike make sure we're including
like they're trying to survive.
katy (41:33):
Well, here's what I will say too.
Oh, for sure.
What's amazing to me is likethose are often the women who
are, who actually are what'slike, we don't have to organize
shit to bring people into.
They're already organizing.
If anything, it's like, how canwe.
Plug into movements.
And by we, I mean like
Mandy (41:52):
Yeah.
katy (41:52):
white women who have money and like what, you know, add to
the list of things that it's noteven about us.
Like I think if anything overthe years that we've been doing
this is learning how to be insolidarity, learning how to take
orders and listen to, and thenjust direct resources to
whatever the, the people who arebeing most affected want.
(42:13):
To have happen.
Like that's what makes sense.
And I know that that organizingis happening, and I know that
that's, but it, but it, you'reright, that it, it's like not
only for the, the people at theheart experiencing the
oppression, like who are evenfiguring out ways to still
organize and do things like it,it does take so much more, and
(42:38):
the risks are so much higher,like to.
Or to, to try to be committed tothat.
In a like police state system,you are risking so much more,
especially if you have anymarginalized identities.
Like, and then if you are like arich white lady with a lot of
(42:59):
time on your hands, like notonly do you have ample
resources, but if anything, ifanybody does like call you out
or there's like someconsequence, like what's the
consequence?
Mandy (43:10):
Mm-hmm.
katy (43:11):
I don't even know what it would be
Mandy (43:13):
Yeah.
katy (43:14):
point to the white woman who advocated for all this
horrible stuff who faced anysort of real consequence.
You know, like, I'm strugglingto think of one.
It's just yeah.
I It's
Mandy (43:26):
deck is stacked
katy (43:27):
just the deck.
The deck, exactly.
The deck is very uneven
Mandy (43:31):
Mm-hmm.
katy (43:32):
for sure.
Mandy (43:32):
Yeah.
katy (43:33):
Mm.
Mandy (43:34):
Well, that's where we're going.
So
katy (43:38):
Hmm, great.
I can't wait.
So
Mandy (43:41):
to talk about.
katy (43:42):
yes, it would be awesome if people would want to get a
copy of this book the Mothers ofMassive Resistance and read
along with us.
I think our plan is just to kindof take it chapter by chapter
Mandy (43:55):
Mm-hmm.
katy (43:56):
ideally I would love to reach out to the author to see
if she would wanna talk with us.
That would be amazing.
Mandy (44:02):
I was remembering when we were talking to Stephanie Jones
Rogers, I think it was her, whosaid she's friends with
katy (44:11):
I think she mentioned it, Ann Hassan, Kwame Jeffries, who
we talked to also mentioned, andI think that the world of
historians who study this stuffis not very big.
I would love to be able to pickher brain and just hear about
what brought her to thisresearch even.
I'm always really interested inwhy people have questions about
this in the first place and wantto notice it, and what the
(44:33):
reaction has been to themwanting to poke around in these
spaces.
I'm
Mandy (44:38):
input on how she sees all of this in the context of our
current politics and.
katy (44:44):
mm-hmm.
Mandy (44:44):
What's going on right now, so that'll be good.
I like
katy (44:47):
Well, I can't wait.
Mandy (44:49):
episodes.
katy (44:50):
I think it helps keep us like more, it, it holds us to,
to a more even march throughmaterial.
So we'll be Yeah, I, I'll say wepromise, but who knows anymore.
We'll, uh, Okay.
that Sounds good.
I'll talk to you soon.
Mandy (45:11):
okay.
Bye.
katy (45:13):
Bye.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.