Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Hi, this is Mandy Griffin.
(00:01):
And I'm Katie Swalwell, andwelcome to our Dirty Laundry,
stories of white ladies making amess of things and how we need
to clean up our act.
Mandy (00:14):
Hi everybody.
Hello.
How are we
katy (00:18):
I am so proud of us.
I'm, I'm doing okay.
Mandy (00:21):
a row.
katy (00:22):
I know.
Plus, it's just been so great tosee you.
I've really, I, I love beingable to talk to you every week.
I've just been realizing likehow I think some of this is like
a post 2020 thing, but I, I justfeel like I'm getting worse at
friendship the older I get, andI don't like that.
I feel like I need to
Mandy (00:42):
Mine is just due
katy (00:42):
figure that out.
Mandy (00:45):
where I'm just like, I don't need to know any new
people.
katy (00:48):
No, I do.
Honestly, it didn't even occurto me to think about new
friends.
I was even just thinking aboutold friends, like I, I, part of
it's just like your kids andwork and just, I feel like the
last thing on my list that Iever get to is.
Friend time.
So I feel terrible that I don't,I'm just like not plugged into
my friends the same way that Iwas.
(01:09):
And I don't like that.
I feel like I need to do abetter job of that.
so basically I'm gonna start apodcast with all of my other
friends, different podcastsbecause it's a reason to hang
out with each other.
I don't have any idea what elseI would talk about.
Mandy (01:24):
Oh gosh.
Well we're doing it again.
katy (01:27):
I am proud of us.
Mandy (01:28):
like very timely and very interesting and so glad that
we're talking about it again.
katy (01:34):
Me too.
Mandy (01:35):
my frustration what are we gonna do about all of this
despair?
So yeah,
katy (01:41):
Yeah.
Yes.
Okay.
Well, and we are in the midst ofa book club where we're reading
Elizabeth mray.
I'm missing a name there forher.
Gillespie.
Thank you.
Mothers of Massive Resistance.
And we are looking today atchapter one, the Color Line in
Virginia, the homegrownproduction of white supremacy,
(02:03):
which sounds.
So just spot on.
And it made me think of allthose tread wives baking bread,
you know, like the, the organicversion of this.
But this was a super, I waslaughing because I, we got on to
record and I was immediatelyapologizing to you because I
hadn't read the chapter, andthen I opened the book and I
have notes all throughout thisfirst chapter.
Mandy (02:23):
I've reread it a couple of times in the past week, but I
had completely forgotten that Ihad read it, but I had
highlights in it as I was
katy (02:30):
This is
Mandy (02:31):
I
katy (02:31):
so concerning.
Mandy (02:33):
those highlights was the
katy (02:34):
Okay.
Mandy (02:35):
So, you know,
katy (02:37):
That makes me feel better.
I'm gonna be refreshing mymemory as we go to, I really
should read it several times aswell.
Well, we were just talkingabout, we're updating each other
on family stuff and just beingworried about our own memories
is maybe what we should bethinking about
Mandy (02:50):
we need to
katy (02:51):
anyway.
Mandy (02:52):
before we start, I had sent you just last night an
Instagram post that I really
katy (02:57):
Yeah.
Mandy (02:59):
Well with this too.
And I wanted, it's a poem, and I
katy (03:03):
Yeah.
Mandy (03:04):
It's a little bit long but
katy (03:05):
Great.
Mandy (03:06):
I follow called Our Moral Imperative on Instagram.
If you look it up, if you'reinterested or if you wanna
reread this later it's a goodaccount.
This poem is written by Lyle.
Fast.
FASS.
I have no idea who that is.
Didn't have time to look, but itis a good poem and I think it is
(03:27):
very applicable to what we'rediscussing.
So I'm gonna read this first.
katy (03:32):
Hmm.
Mandy (03:32):
Why America Is Like This.
Okay?
katy (03:36):
Hmm.
Mandy (03:37):
You want to understand why America is like this, why
Trump happened, why the rotkeeps spreading, why cruelty
isn't a bug, but a feature.
It's not a mystery.
It's the oldest story we'venever told honestly, and until
we face it, we will keepcollapsing into darker versions
of ourselves.
(03:57):
country was not founded onfreedom.
It was founded on stolen land,cleared by slaughter, and built
by stolen people, broken byforce.
is the foundational transaction.
Everything else is decoration.
We did not reckon with thegenocide of native peoples.
We mythologized it.
made westerns about it.
(04:19):
We named football teams afterthe dead, we paved over bones
and called it destiny.
We did not reckon with slavery.
We declared it over and thenimmediately wrote new laws to
replace chains with prison bars.
never paid for the centuries offree labor.
For the children sold for thetorture, for the theft of time
and breath and lineage.
(04:41):
We made a new America, but leftthe engine intact.
The Confederacy lost the war,but won the memory.
We let them rewrite history inmarble.
monuments didn't go up in 1865.
They went up in the 1950s, notas remembrance, but as warning.
We'd never cleansed theinstitutions.
(05:03):
The racists became sheriffs.
Sheriffs became senators and thelogic of white supremacy
adapted, changing shape,changing code, but never losing
its grip.
That's why America electsracists, not in spite of our
history, but because of it.
When the mask slips and thecandidate says the quiet part
(05:24):
out loud, it doesn't alienatethe country.
It clarifies it.
Trump didn't invent any of this.
He just said it without shame.
And for millions, that was thefantasy.
A man who would take everyburied cruelty and wear it like
a crown.
This is why they're banningbooks.
Why they're rewriting curricula,why the very mention of racism
(05:45):
or history now sets off alarmsbecause they know what we'd find
if we looked too closely acountry terrified of its own
reflection.
Reparations aren't radical.
They're overdue.
Truth telling isn't divisive.
It's the only way out.
if we don't learn from Germany,if we don't enshrine what
happened, criminalize itssymbols and build laws that make
(06:09):
it unrepeatable, then we aretelling the future exactly what
we're willing to tolerate.
Again, America doesn't confrontits breaking points.
It buries them, calls it pride,wraps it in Anthem and flag.
Things don't disappear.
They grow back meaner, we arerunning out of time to break the
(06:31):
cycle.
katy (06:32):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (06:33):
our podcast is about.
katy (06:35):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (06:36):
things.
They're the
katy (06:38):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (06:38):
They have been enshrined into all of our systems,
educational, law, legal,business, all of it.
you're willing to take a hardlook at that and admit it and do
very difficult work of trying toundo that, it, this is what it's
(07:00):
become.
katy (07:01):
Yeah,
Mandy (07:02):
new.
It's always been here.
katy (07:04):
yeah.
especially this time of yearwhen it's the 4th of July and
longtime listeners will know.
I live in Iowa where Mandy and Imet as little, little baby kids.
Yes.
But, the president was in Iowaright before the 4th of July to
give this big speech announcingthe plans for the.
(07:26):
Nation's big birthday coming upand like all the things going on
this year, it is still odd to methat he chose Des Moines for
that speech.
It's just, it's like, I mean,I'm sure it makes sense in terms
of his base and the image he'strying to project.
in some ways Iowa probably isthe poster child for everything
(07:50):
that poem is about.
It's the state that has theleast native land left, like
basically 99% of the tall grassprairie and oak Savannah has
been converted to bigagricultural farms.
So it's interesting that youdrive through the state and
it's, so much of it is quotecountryside, but almost none of
(08:11):
it is
Mandy (08:13):
countries thing.
katy (08:14):
in both sense of the word,
Mandy (08:15):
to
katy (08:15):
Right.
So in some ways it's like, ohyeah, this, this maybe is kind
of ground zero in a way for, forwhite supremacy, settlement, et
cetera.
But yeah, that, that poem,especially this week, is really
important.
And I, I agree.
I think that is exactly whatwe're doing with this podcast.
when I try to understand my owncareer as a social studies
(08:38):
teacher and then a professor ofsocial studies education, and
now someone who's like, youknow, still writing books and
researching and.
Helping schools and districtsfigure out what it is that we
teach young people about who weare.
That's the heart of that poem.
Like what are the stories wetell about ourselves?
Who is the we Even telling thestory, like who's us, who's
(09:01):
them, all of that.
that is like the singlemotivating force for my entire
career.
I think that that's what I ammost passionate about and so.
Disturbed by how far back downthe hill, it seems like we've
rolled.
Mandy (09:20):
Interestingly,
katy (09:21):
to,
Mandy (09:22):
I feel like this.
Helps me in some way have alittle more compassion for
people are
katy (09:33):
mm-hmm.
Mandy (09:34):
that, what I would call the opposite side of us, or like
the MAGA side, because feel likeinstitutions in this rewriting
of history has been soeffective.
katy (09:45):
Mm.
Mandy (09:46):
where people grew up and the culture that they grew up
in,
katy (09:49):
Mm
Mandy (09:50):
stories they heard.
How else are
katy (09:53):
mm.
Mandy (09:53):
they to know that that's not true?
Although at
katy (09:58):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (09:58):
think like you have access to the internet in the
big wide world and at some pointyou
katy (10:02):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (10:03):
wake up and recognize
katy (10:05):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (10:06):
But at least from that starting
katy (10:09):
Hmm.
Mandy (10:09):
this has been.
Incredibly
katy (10:13):
Yeah.
Mandy (10:13):
indoctrinated into
katy (10:15):
Oh, totally.
It's been so effective.
I mean, it's that line about howthe Confederacy lost the war,
but won the memory.
Mandy (10:21):
Mm-hmm.
katy (10:21):
I was just re-listening to our interview with Hassan Kwame
Jefferies, the historian whoreally focuses us on teaching
hard history and has a podcastabout it.
And he's a professor at the OhioState University and we, it was
such a great conversation.
I love talking with him.
And he, he was talking aboutworking with college students
and teaching them thesehistories and he said that the.
(10:45):
The number one response he getsis that people are angry and
they're not angry with him forteaching them this history.
They're angry with the otheradults in their lives who lied
to them.
They're angry with their formerteachers, they're angry with
their parents.
And he talked about how moms inparticular, he just talked about
the fear that they're going tolose their children, and, and he
(11:09):
said that what I want people tounderstand is what the stakes
are is that.
To participate in these lies andto bring your children up into
that means that you are risking,increasingly losing your kids to
really radical extremists andpeople very, very explicitly
dedicated to white supremacy andexplicitly dedicated to.
(11:34):
Pretty awful cruel,authoritarian regimes like that.
That's the, he's like, that'sthe game you're playing.
You know, like, I'm not playingthat with my kids because like,
that's not, no one's coming formy kid.
You know?
In that way it's this idea thatthe.
Like confronting the lie andmaking those reparations is
(11:54):
honestly just so much easier.
Like, do that, you know, likeit's, it's just the classic,
like it's gonna be painful inthis moment, but the benefit is
that we can move forward in ahealthy healing sort of way.
Mandy (12:08):
Yep.
katy (12:09):
like constant upkeep of the lie is so.
Dangerous and,
Mandy (12:16):
Mm-hmm.
katy (12:16):
I mean it, and I honestly, to bring it back to this book
that we're reading, this firstchapter was that she's gonna
focus, I think, on differentwomen each time.
Mandy (12:26):
few different women.
This chapter is, there areseveral women in it.
not like the main ones that shetalks about in the introduction
that are kind of
katy (12:36):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (12:37):
But there's a few specific.
Women in here whose stories shefollows.
And the whole, is just veryexplicit about actual work that
went into it being carried outby women.
There's this theme of like themen legislate
katy (12:54):
mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (12:58):
on the individual local level.
katy (13:02):
It is that song.
I love this song and I'm gonnabutcher it because I'm not a
good singer.
And you have to be like anexceptional singer to make this
song sound good.
And I can't think of who singsit.
You'll know.
I think it's it.
It's called Women's Work.
Like, ha ha ha, this Women'sWork.
Do you know this song I'mtalking about?
Mandy (13:20):
sure I do.
katy (13:21):
It is from the eighties.
It's the same song that wentviral a couple years ago because
it was on Stranger Things likerunning up that hill.
But do you know that song?
Oh my God.
Don't make me try to sing morebecause I'm just gonna embarrass
myself.
Mandy (13:35):
looking up though.
katy (13:36):
Kate
Mandy (13:37):
Bush.
katy (13:38):
Bush.
Thank you.
it's the most gorgeous song.
This women's work.
it's so pretty.
Mandy (13:43):
we're done.
katy (13:43):
we think about women's work so often as being like
unappreciated, undervaluedbecause it's providing like.
This really essential nurturingand social lubricant.
That sounds so gross.
But you know, it's like, that'show, when I hear the phrase
women's work, that's what Ithink of is like the
(14:04):
unappreciated.
Like heartbeat of what'shappening in such a positive,
like a nurturing, loving sort ofway.
But this chapter was all aboutlike the very, very dark side of
women's work, like the way thatthese women were, this line that
really hit me.
This is page 25.
(14:25):
The fact that women often hadthe most access to and knowledge
of the places where this racialclassification would occur.
The bedroom, the birthing room,and the classroom enhanced their
alleged genetic proclivity fordetecting mixed race
individuals.
The midwife had to certify raceon birth certificates.
Jim Crow state policy instructedthe white school teacher to
report to the schoolsuperintendent's office
(14:45):
children.
She suspected of mixed raceheritage.
The social worker recorded theracial identities of the
families with whom she worked,deciding race.
Based on a host of behavioraland hereditary observations,
often mixed with a dose of localgossip, the local registrar had
to turn in marriage licenses toeach state's Bureau of Vital
Statistics.
The RIA and accompanying Eugeniclegislation nationwide created
(15:07):
public policies that requiredenforcement by those with
familiar female faces like that.
That version of women's work isfucking creepy, you know?
Mandy (15:16):
Mm-hmm.
katy (15:17):
And terrifying.
The RIA, by the way, is theRacial Integrity Act, which is
passed in the 1920s.
Mandy (15:24):
was just in Virginia, which if anyone who's listening
still lives in Virginia or isfrom there, I'd be very
interested in any of yourcomments
katy (15:33):
Oh, for sure.
Mandy (15:33):
about this Virginia background and how it still
plays out there.
But basically what the RacialIntegrity Act said was that
individuals seeking marriage orthose born after 1912 had to
certify their racial identitywith local officials It changed
the criteria for whiteness benot one drop non-white blood,
(16:01):
except
katy (16:02):
Yep.
Mandy (16:02):
exception, which was anyone who was one 16th Native
American could still beclassified as white.
And that has something to dowith like descendants of like
Pocahontas, because there's
katy (16:17):
That was wild to me.
Yes.
Like it's okay to be descendedfrom Pocahontas.
That honestly, we should just doa whole mini episode on that
because, or major episode,because that is like a
absolutely, like a whole thingand her life is fascinating and
tragic and just, it is bananas.
So yes, like if, if you'reclaiming that connection, like
(16:39):
we will, we'll.
Stamp that with a stamp ofapproval that it changed the
definition of black from quote,one quarter black blood to quote
one 16th black blood.
That is, I think that is one ofthose to the poem that you read
that it, that I, I knew kind ofin broad strokes, but to see it
(16:59):
that specifically in a law, thatit made things more race like
somehow you took this superracist system and you made it
more.
Racist and you change thedefinition
Mandy (17:12):
Mm-hmm.
katy (17:13):
what counted as this or that.
It's such a great example of howrace is a social construct.
Like these, the categories ofrace that we have are not just
invented, but they were inventedfor a reason, which is to sort
people so that you can have onegroup of people justified in
their exploitation of anothergroup of people.
Mandy (17:34):
Yeah.
katy (17:35):
that is the invention of these categories and that was
just in, in like honestly, itwas a couple years before my
grandparents were born, whichwho?
They're still alive.
Like this is within ageneration.
This wasn't like 1687.
This is 1924,
Mandy (17:53):
Mm-hmm.
katy (17:54):
they crank'em up even higher.
Mandy (17:56):
Mm-hmm.
katy (17:56):
Yep.
Mandy (17:57):
she uses a term later in the chapter that I thought was
and very helpful for reallypointing out what this is.
And she calls it documentarygenocide.
She says institutional memory,generational instruction and
local prejudices continued thepractice of racial segregation
(18:20):
and documentary genocide longafter the law pronounced it
dead.
Because you take thesebackgrounds of people that were
very diverse, like this
katy (18:30):
Yeah.
Mandy (18:30):
area in Virginia that she talks about in this chapter
katy (18:34):
Yes.
Mandy (18:35):
Of white colonial settlers, but that came in and
they married
katy (18:38):
of mixing of families.
Right,
Mandy (18:41):
people and slaves and all of that.
And so they were throughoutgenerations a very like mixed
community, and they had
katy (18:50):
right.
Mandy (18:51):
those different designations and then this law
made everyone be reclassified asblack or white, and
katy (18:59):
And the fact that it came down, honestly to sometimes
white women being like, I don'tlike you.
Click, like, then I've, I'vesorted you in this way.
I've exactly like, you made memad at church last week.
Like the power that they had to.
Alter the course of thesefamily's histories based on how
they classified people in thesevery like bureaucratic sort of
(19:22):
ways is sickening it.
I mean it, I honestly, I know Isaid I didn't even remember that
I read this chapter, but nowthat we're getting into it, I
remember that I was like,
Mandy (19:30):
back.
katy (19:31):
I was like nauseous, honestly, reading it, there were
a couple of other phrases sheused that I thought were really.
Powerful one was, the ways thatwhite college educated women,
which of course this would'vebeen like the first generation
really, of white collegeeducated women, would have to
participate in the actualcartography of race, like the
literal mapping of race.
And then later she said whitesegregation.
(19:52):
Women had assumed crucial rolesin the domestic production of a
white supremacist state gross.
Mandy (20:01):
Yeah, and they, the interesting thing is that they
had these roles and in thistime, they were very well known.
People knew their names, theyknew their involvement.
They were involved in a coupleof different groups that we'll
talk about in a little bit.
But you look back at the writtenhistory.
mostly erased from it.
Like she talks about the first,this woman, she starts it with
(20:24):
Margaret Eileen Goodman, who isa registrar in Rockbridge County
who had all of thiscommunication back and forth
with these people that wereinvolved in this kind of
institutionalization of the racecategories.
Her name not really mentionedthough.
Anywhere in actual historicalwriting
katy (20:46):
mm-hmm.
Mandy (20:46):
Her obituary doesn't even mention that she worked as the
local registrar.
And then there's these other,this work of these college
educated women mostly from SweetBriar College.
there's scrapbooks.
She talks about this briefcorrespondence that they're a
part of, but other than that,it's just like letters and
(21:09):
census records and small things.
There's no written history ofthis, and she says in the end,
this historical selection doesvaluable work.
Rendering invisible the womenand daily acts that secured
white supremacy.
katy (21:24):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (21:26):
is the myth of a system that persisted with leaders at
the center, but without localpeople in local communities.
This writing out of whitewomen's efforts to police the
racial order promotes the whitesupremacist fiction.
That segregation was natural andhappened without workers.
katy (21:44):
Yes.
I think it also promotes thefiction that if you just adjust
things at the top, then thatfixes the situation.
Like if we just pass a new law,Or if we just have a better
national leader,
Mandy (21:58):
Mm-hmm.
katy (21:58):
then that cleans it up.
But when you will raise the workthat these women were doing,
very intentionally, might I addlike, let's just name Margaret
Eileen Goodman as someone who isnot like accidentally doing
things or like inadvertently orlike unwillingly doing things.
She was very committed to makingsure that this law.
(22:21):
Sorted people into these veryrigid categories and when we
erase that, like, yes, itseemed, it then allows this myth
like, oh, segregation is justthe natural state of things that
you don't need workers.
But it also, for the peoplefighting white supremacy, I
think it.
It distracts us by thinkinglike, oh, if we just get a
different law or a differentperson in power, we'll be better
off.
(22:41):
It's like, no, there are workerbees everywhere.
Very happy to participate inthis because they were getting
something out of it.
Like they had, like, think aboutthe power.
She must have felt, I mean, shehad it, she had the power and
what that must have felt likefor her as.
You know, a white woman in the1920s to, to, to like that, that
(23:06):
doesn't go away because you havea new president
Mandy (23:10):
Yeah.
katy (23:10):
you have a new law, you know?
Mandy (23:13):
Also what we've talked about, the seductiveness of this
power to women who havetraditionally been in roles
where they didn't have that kindof power.
'cause I always wonder like howeven if you have that kind of
power, you've gotta recognizehow ugly it is.
Like how do they not see that?
But I guess it's just such astark contrast to the complete
(23:37):
lack of ability that women had.
Felt politically for a longtime, even if their work, you
know, as we know, evencolonialism back in the 16, 17
katy (23:47):
for sure.
Mandy (23:47):
they were
katy (23:48):
Yeah.
Mandy (23:49):
she does say Goodman's letters pointed to the
patriarchal relationshipsreplicated by the state whereby
women on the ground implementedpolicies crafted by male
officials earning professionalaccolades, community authority,
and some income.
It created zones of racial work.
At the same time, it createdeconomic opportunities for many
(24:09):
white, middle class women.
katy (24:12):
Yeah.
Mandy (24:13):
So.
katy (24:14):
Well then, and then the wild thing, this, I was on page
31 where they were talking evenabout the men who were
legislating or, you know, comingup with these rules and laws and
then tasking the women withimplementing them.
just the sexism that is builtinto that too.
It's just such an absolute mess.
So this was when, they'retalking about the Sweet Briar
College students and theEugenics record office in Cold
(24:38):
Springs Harbor, New York.
And we've talked about CharlesDavenport before when we talked
about the eugenics movement.
Mandy (24:43):
Yep.
katy (24:43):
But he argued that.
Women's power of intuition andemotional sensitivity made them
more adept at judging andassessing the feeble-minded and
detecting bad germ plasm, asupposed biological product of
interracial mixing.
And I, I wrote in the comments,WTAF race star, like he's
(25:03):
basically describing like, oh,those ladies have good race
star, basically like.
Mandy (25:10):
they talk about that in all of the correspondence they
found between these women andthis Walter Blecher, who I think
was he county recorder?
katy (25:19):
Mm.
Something like that.
Mandy (25:20):
and he was one of the authors, I believe, of the RIA
when it was passed.
So, all these women would writeto him and say.
How should we classify such andsuch a situation?
And ask him like, would a bloodtest help or would this help?
And she says, Blecher affirmedthat no scientific test could
(25:41):
show race.
And that race has to be decidedupon what can be seen and
learned.
Puker continued.
You and the sheriff and anyother intelligent citizen are as
capable of judging from theappearance of the child as the
most learned scientists.
katy (25:58):
It's such garbage.
I mean, it's just, wild to methat they can even say yeah,
we're making this up.
Because I was thinking of oh,what if there had been like
genetic testing at this time?
You know, where you could reallylike.
Map out exactly who was relatedto who and whatever, whatever.
Like the 23 and me of the 1920s,which I think I have problems
with 23 and me, but you know,it's this, it's like it doesn't
(26:20):
even matter because that's notthe point.
That's not the point.
It's like we're creating thesecategories and we have the power
to enforce them.
the college students that theywere bringing in called the.
They were called theinvestigators, and it just made
me so mad to think of these like20-year-old, 19-year-old white
girls showing up in thesecommunities.
(26:43):
And they would go in with theirclip words and, and watch kids
and send surveys to schoolteachers to basically sort kids
based on behaviors that theyobserved.
And there was this, I mean, thismade me just so mad as a.
Former education professor inparticular, just thinking about
the ways that.
(27:04):
These traditions have evolvedand not really gone away in
terms of teacher education insome ways.
But it talks about this onecategorization of children.
And among the 55 students listedin a chart on capabilities nine
students were described asfairly capable, capable, and
average.
22 as hopeless, stupid,feeble-minded, and dull.
(27:28):
20 escaped with no addeddescription.
And it's like, who the fuck arethese women to go in?
You know what I mean?
Just like absolute just, itenraged me to read that, that
these children are being, like,kids are being categorized in
these horrible ways based on Godknows what, like observations
(27:49):
these people think they'remaking and then that's what's
sorting them.
Mandy (27:53):
yeah.
katy (27:54):
I was
Mandy (27:55):
mean, I
katy (27:55):
really
Mandy (27:56):
'cause
katy (27:56):
angry.
Mandy (27:57):
somewhat about like the.
of public school teachers andwhite women in particular in
that and how deep that goes andstill does.
katy (28:05):
So deep.
Mandy (28:06):
brought that up about like it was public school
teachers
katy (28:09):
Yep.
Mandy (28:10):
to look at these, they talk about in 19,
katy (28:14):
Right.
Mandy (28:14):
as 1908,
katy (28:16):
I.
Mandy (28:17):
the Virginia's Board of Charities and Corrections send a
survey to public school teachersabout quote unquote defectives.
katy (28:25):
Yeah.
Mandy (28:25):
Just from the
katy (28:26):
Or the book.
Mandy (28:27):
to send a survey about call Human beings
katy (28:32):
yes.
Right.
Mandy (28:33):
and they were to mark behaviors that indicated signs
of inbreeding in addition tospasms and pilfering.
The checklist includedcarelessness, inance and
excessive exaggerations, and I'mlike, so kids.
katy (28:48):
A child, right?
Or like, especially like if youare someone open to completing
this survey, you suck as aperson.
And my guess is this kid doesn'ttrust or like you
Mandy (28:58):
Mm-hmm.
katy (28:59):
and so the, you might observe this kid being a.
You know, like sassy to you ornot wanting to talk to you.
It's like, yeah,'cause you are abitch.
And that kid can tell and thatkid doesn't wanna have anything
to do with you.
Like, that's what's happening.
You know, I, the the book in1926, there was an all this
quote, research, let's use thatterm loosely with regards to
(29:19):
this data.
Arthur Estabrook and IvanMcDougall published a book
called Mongrel Virginians.
And that was where they have allof these different racial
typologies and classificationsand are.
Like describing how you can telllike who's defective and who
isn't, and just of course it'sall racialized and Yeah, when I
(29:41):
think then this is the, youknow, 1920s, you think about the
decision in 1954, the brownversus supportive education
decision that says we need todesegregate schools.
And the way that most places didit was to shut down all of the
schools for children of colorand force them to attend white
(30:01):
schools.
how terrifying that must havebeen for families when these are
the women working in thoseschools to know that that's
where you're sending your kidsand there's actually.
I'm thinking of a professor Ihad who is just an incredible
scholar, Gloria Ladson Billings.
We should read her work at somepoint for sure.
she talks about brown versusboard often being lifted up as
(30:22):
like this golden standard forcivil rights movement, when
really it was the biggest massfiring of black teachers in
history, and that you had theseblack children then being forced
to attend schools with whiteteachers who hated them.
And who, who thought thesethings about them.
Like it's, it's awful.
It's awful.
Mandy (30:41):
been reinforced, like
katy (30:44):
Yes.
Mandy (30:44):
sent these surveys.
They were the ones like who wereinvolved in all of this supposed
research.
They, okay, so she says thispart, like the research also
helped shape the lives of whitefemales.
talking about the Sweet Briarstudents, but who were, you
know, a lot of them becameteachers whose observations
katy (31:03):
Yes,
Mandy (31:04):
as social work
katy (31:05):
yes,
Mandy (31:07):
like
katy (31:08):
yes.
Mandy (31:08):
They
katy (31:09):
As like facts.
Mandy (31:10):
work, and then they
katy (31:11):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (31:13):
Because of their higher education, their training, their
work with all of these expertsof the day.
These were people atuniversities doing this
research.
And know, at the, like theeugenics, cold Harbor Springs, I
mean, these were all, the ColdHarbor Eugenics office was like
a government office.
So they carried
katy (31:32):
Right.
Mandy (31:33):
of this quote unquote legitimacy behind them.
katy (31:37):
Well and legitimacy that lingered for so long because
she, Elizabeth Gil GillespieMare also talks about how even
though the law, the RacialIntegrity Act, ends up getting
repealed in Virginia.
Mandy (31:49):
don't
katy (31:50):
but she talks about how even in the nineties, 1990s,
even in the two thousands, thatthere were stories about, babies
being born in hospitals and thehospital giving the birth mother
a birth certificate thatclassified their baby.
And that the, the mother issaying that's not like I reject
(32:10):
that classification like this.
This didn't go away.
At the end of the twenties orthe thirties or the forties or
the fifties or this, like, itjust kept going on and these,
it's not that.
You know, the specific womenthat we're talking about were no
longer working in thosepositions, but they had trained
(32:30):
the women who were working inthose positions.
And those logics still, stillstill stuck.
You know, that legitimacy isstill stuck.
Can we talk about, another womanthat gets named in this chapter?
Louise Burley from Richmond.
I had a lot.
Here are my notes.
Just from the margins for fuck'ssake.
Oof.
Oh no.
Exclamation mark.
(32:51):
She's obsessed.
Fuck her.
Those are the margins that Ihave for this lady.
Mandy (32:56):
I have a lot highlighted in that section about her as
well.
katy (33:00):
Mm.
Mandy (33:00):
was just as a Richmond Virginia resident.
katy (33:06):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (33:08):
I don't know anything else about why she got to the
point that she was at.
She was just at the center ofthese white supremacist
politics.
She was radcliffe educated.
katy (33:22):
Yeah,
Mandy (33:22):
then
katy (33:22):
I think like a wealthy white woman in Richmond with
like money to burn and whitesupremacy to uphold.
Mandy (33:29):
and then she met John Powell, who is also a Richmond
resident and the 1922 founder ofthe Anglo-Saxon Clubs of
America.
Anytime you're looking atjoining a club, first of all,
just be suspicious.
But if it's named
katy (33:47):
I.
Mandy (33:48):
if there's a racial classification in the name,
let's think twice, but hefounded this.
And then they put on thisfestival.
Yes.
katy (34:03):
Well, they connected over the arts, that they were both
really into music and theaterand literature I think he was a
classical pianist.
there was a theater they weretrying to bring in and put on
plays, that would support theidea that.
Anglo-Saxons were the heart ofAmerican civilization.
they organized the White TopMountain Folk Festival, which
(34:26):
honestly, just that name.
I was like, I'd go to that.
That sounds good.
Like a mountain folk musicfestival.
Okay.
But when it's connected to this,oh my God.
not just to celebrateAnglo-Saxon.
Folk music as quote, America'strue music tradition, but
actively rejecting black musicand musicians as quote, inferior
mimicry.
(34:46):
It's insane.
Mandy (34:47):
Yeah, that's absolute
katy (34:49):
That's their music festival.
Mandy (34:51):
that's terrible.
It's terrible.
And then they also worked theycollaborated with.
These other individuals, sobiology professor at University
of Virginia and Eugenics, IvyLewis, which that name is
katy (35:05):
Yes.
We've talked about.
Yep.
Mandy (35:07):
our eugenics thing.
Oh, and then this
katy (35:09):
Yep.
Mandy (35:10):
Ker, who was the state registrar, then I had comments
in the margins about this.
They also have the support,support of Amy Garvey.
was the wife of BlackNationalist Marcus Garvey.
And they, the Garvey's advocatedracial separatism, which then
they felt, gave them legitimacybecause
katy (35:30):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (35:30):
had these black nationalists supporting
separation.
And I wrote in the margin whatin the Candace Owens.
katy (35:38):
It is wild.
Mandy (35:40):
I know we've talked about this and that, you know, racial
categories are very fluid andnot set.
And also the ideologies withinthose are varied.
katy (35:53):
Right,
Mandy (35:54):
way of looking at these
katy (35:55):
No.
Mandy (35:56):
does complicate stuff and it just gives these white
supremacists like another thingto hold on to.
Even though, so they claimedthese black nationalist
supporters and fanciedthemselves more rational and
learned counterpart to the KKK.
though she says officers, allmen who held positions in the
(36:18):
Richmond chapter had also allbeen KKK members.
katy (36:23):
Yes, the layers, this is like a shit lasagna because the
layers of things are so deep.
Like there's sexism, there'sclassism, like, oh, we're better
white supremacists than poorwhite people.
Poor white people.
Like your starter group is theK, k, K.
But then if, you know, if youreally prove yourself, you can
work up the ranks to these like.
Quote, classier, fancier ways tobe a white supremacist.
(36:45):
It's all just so gross.
And I, I am really curious aboutthat connection with Amy Garvey
and the, just thinking about theways that separatism and
segregation or like supremacyaren't all exactly synonymous.
And yeah, just, just wanting todig into that a little bit more
because I don't think blacknationalism is akin to white
(37:07):
nationalism.
I think they are different.
Ideologies.
I, there's like some overlap insome ways, and clearly if these
folks, you know, felt like theyhad some sort of mutual
interest, but yeah, that, Ithought that was like, Ooh,
there's a rabbit hole I wanna godown for sure.
this lady was really busythough.
Louise Burley was very dedicatedto using the arts to support
(37:29):
white supremacy.
She, Created literature anddisseminated it about the
potential decline of whitecivilization.
She was a ghost writer for theeugenics books of Realtor Turned
World Traveler, Ernest Cox.
There's a.
Gem, if ever there was onerealtor turned world traveler,
author of Eugenics books.
(37:49):
She was a lobbyist for theRacial Integrity Act.
She was an advocate forfollow-up legislation that would
mandate segregation at allpublic performances.
She wanted to get the Bureau ofVital Statistics expanded so
that people could be furtherpoliced and anyone who was
trying to quote pass could be.
Fared it out.
She was a member of Virginia'sBoard of Censors where she
(38:12):
policed interracial sexualtransgressions in film, which
this is where you remember whenwe were talking to you about the
banning like censorship of musicand Tipper Gore and like all of
that.
Mandy (38:23):
Mm-hmm.
katy (38:24):
like the women who were the most supposedly pearl
clutching appalled, they'rewatching a lot of stuff and
they're listening to, it's like,are you really appalled or is
this cover for you to watch?
Mandy (38:37):
Yeah.
katy (38:38):
films with a whole lot of, you know, interracial sexual
transgressions.
I, it just is like, wow, you'rereally spending a whole lot of
time on this.
And then she, I'm, she's justlike the original Karen.
It sounds like apologies to allKaren's listening who are not
this way, but she would writethe leadership of the.
(38:58):
The, at Anglo-Saxon Clubs ofAmerica when she felt the
sensors were, were being toolenient and just like really
spending all her time policingall of this so much.
and I think just an example ofall that labor that the.
Men's legislative work relied onto make that legislation
(39:22):
effective.
She joined the Women's RacialIntegrity Club of Richmond.
This 43 fancy ladies who wouldreview scientific evidence in
quotes that supported eugenics,that they would lobby for
governments.
They were connected with localclassroom teachers.
They would.
Give talks places, and these arejust like fancy ladies again,
(39:47):
using the resources that theyhave to police and enforce white
supremacy.
Mandy (39:57):
Yeah, and I think, I mean, so Louise and Goodman were
like the two major players thatshe talks about in here.
katy (40:05):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (40:06):
right before we wrap this up, I also wanna say like, I
think it's important thesewomen's names are used,
katy (40:13):
Yeah.
Mandy (40:14):
we do recognize that they were individuals.
for me, just as a warning to thewhite women today who are also
playing
katy (40:23):
Mm.
Mandy (40:23):
bullshit, like your name will be in books.
People will read about youlater.
You should not get away withthis, but they talk about the
three women from Amherst County,red Cross Worker, Louisa
Hubbard.
Former Bear Mountain missionaryworker, Isabel Wagner and Nurse
Ms.
Theresa Ambler were women thathelped track down the other
(40:45):
women who were amenable to thework of doing this
classification.
they also helped to train theundergraduate women from Sweet
Briar College who did thisresearch.
Are a few that they named of theseven.
Sweet, brighter students thatincluded Gwendolyn Watson,
Martha Inger and Eleanor Harid,who earned the title of
(41:07):
investigators for their detailedsurveys of these families that
lived in this area.
They recorded things such assize and condition of homes,
complexion of children,religious practices, literacy,
cleanliness, sexual behaviors,income and work ethic.
So are people that, and it takespeople.
To carry out this work just likeit takes people to do it.
(41:30):
Now, I think of like all ofthese ICE raids going on in the
communities, challenging
katy (41:35):
Right.
Mandy (41:35):
workers and
katy (41:36):
Yeah.
Mandy (41:36):
like, cross over now.
Quit your
katy (41:40):
Yes,
Mandy (41:40):
like
katy (41:41):
Don't do this.
Mandy (41:42):
you make this work.
This will
katy (41:46):
We, the machine requires cogs.
Mandy (41:48):
Yeah,
katy (41:49):
Yes.
Don't, don't be a cog, be awrench.
Like get, I cannot stress whatyou're saying enough.
I cannot cosign that enough.
Just, it requires the labor ofall these people and, and the
fact is that I don't doubt.
here's my interpretation, isthat they get a taste of power
(42:12):
and it feels real good to Lordthat power over someone, and
that has to be part of what'shappening right now is that
there are people in thesepositions that are disappearing
children and people who have.
Mandy (42:30):
citizens
katy (42:31):
Citizens.
Yes.
and it doesn't matter if you'recitizen, you should not.
this isn't humane.
but yes.
Even when it's
Mandy (42:38):
I'm
katy (42:38):
like illegal, according to whatever laws we have,
Mandy (42:41):
threat when they are.
katy (42:43):
it's appalling.
There are other ways to havepower and there are other ways
to be empowered that actuallybenefit the collective and help
us be a loving, just faircommunity.
This is not the only way to feellike you have power, feel like
you matter, and there are peopleshowing up for.
(43:03):
Neighbors and friends and familywho are being targeted, but not
enough.
That's for sure.
And just thinking about how youused this word before, how
seductive it can be to think,well, this is my job and I have
to fill out this form and I haveto turn in this thing.
But it's, that is the banalityof evil.
Like that is where it allhappens.
(43:26):
And it, it's, the examples we'rereading about are maybe a
hundred years ago, but that.
Doesn't mean that they don'tstill happen all the time, every
day in hospitals, in classrooms,in government offices that are,
you know, the basement ofwhatever place.
Like, and if you are working onthose places, like another way
(43:48):
to have power is to disobey, tonot do it, to not send in the
forum or to not do the thing.
You don't like that.
Use your power in ways that.
Protect vulnerable people and,and not uphold white supremacy.
I mean, it's just back to thepoem
Mandy (44:07):
Yep.
katy (44:07):
you read at the beginning.
Be a wrench, not a cog.
Mandy (44:10):
for
katy (44:10):
gonna be my, my mantra.
Well, I can't wait to readchapter two and then reread it
and read it a third time so thatI remember that.
I've already read it twice.
But it looks like it is gonnadive into the world of school
teachers, and so I am.
Eager to, to do that.
But thank you to everybodylistening and thank you to
everybody reading along andplease let us know questions,
(44:34):
thoughts, especially if you'reliving in Virginia, it would be
great to hear what people haveexperienced themselves, what
they remember.
You know, I'm thinking thesewomen likely have grandchildren
who are our age, older,great-grandchildren.
How do people negotiate thesefamily legacies?
You know, that's a big part ofthis too.
Mandy (44:54):
Yep, for sure.
And don't be afraid to.
Question things, I guess.
Like if you're in some sort ofposition where you feel like you
can or you have the opportunity,like yeah, for sure.
That's gonna be our new mantra.
katy (45:11):
Fellow wrench.
Mandy (45:12):
We'll see you next
katy (45:13):
My, my wench.
Mandy (45:15):
Oh, I like that.
katy (45:18):
I'll see you soon.
Mandy (45:19):
Bye.
katy (45:19):
Bye.
Hi, this is Mandy Griffin.
(00:01):
And I'm Katie Swalwell, andwelcome to our Dirty Laundry,
stories of white ladies making amess of things and how we need
to clean up our act.
Mandy (00:14):
Hi everybody.
Hello.
How are we
katy (00:18):
I am so proud of us.
I'm, I'm doing okay.
Mandy (00:21):
a row.
katy (00:22):
I know.
Plus, it's just been so great tosee you.
I've really, I, I love beingable to talk to you every week.
I've just been realizing likehow I think some of this is like
a post 2020 thing, but I, I justfeel like I'm getting worse at
friendship the older I get, andI don't like that.
I feel like I need to
Mandy (00:42):
Mine is just due
katy (00:42):
figure that out.
Mandy (00:45):
where I'm just like, I don't need to know any new
people.
katy (00:48):
No, I do.
Honestly, it didn't even occurto me to think about new
friends.
I was even just thinking aboutold friends, like I, I, part of
it's just like your kids andwork and just, I feel like the
last thing on my list that Iever get to is.
Friend time.
So I feel terrible that I don't,I'm just like not plugged into
my friends the same way that Iwas.
(01:09):
And I don't like that.
I feel like I need to do abetter job of that.
so basically I'm gonna start apodcast with all of my other
friends, different podcastsbecause it's a reason to hang
out with each other.
I don't have any idea what elseI would talk about.
Mandy (01:24):
Oh gosh.
Well we're doing it again.
katy (01:27):
I am proud of us.
Mandy (01:28):
like very timely and very interesting and so glad that
we're talking about it again.
katy (01:34):
Me too.
Mandy (01:35):
my frustration what are we gonna do about all of this
despair?
So yeah,
katy (01:41):
Yeah.
Yes.
Okay.
Well, and we are in the midst ofa book club where we're reading
Elizabeth mray.
I'm missing a name there forher.
Gillespie.
Thank you.
Mothers of Massive Resistance.
And we are looking today atchapter one, the Color Line in
Virginia, the homegrownproduction of white supremacy,
(02:03):
which sounds.
So just spot on.
And it made me think of allthose tread wives baking bread,
you know, like the, the organicversion of this.
But this was a super, I waslaughing because I, we got on to
record and I was immediatelyapologizing to you because I
hadn't read the chapter, andthen I opened the book and I
have notes all throughout thisfirst chapter.
Mandy (02:23):
I've reread it a couple of times in the past week, but I
had completely forgotten that Ihad read it, but I had
highlights in it as I was
katy (02:30):
This is
Mandy (02:31):
I
katy (02:31):
so concerning.
Mandy (02:33):
those highlights was the
katy (02:34):
Okay.
Mandy (02:35):
So, you know,
katy (02:37):
That makes me feel better.
I'm gonna be refreshing mymemory as we go to, I really
should read it several times aswell.
Well, we were just talkingabout, we're updating each other
on family stuff and just beingworried about our own memories
is maybe what we should bethinking about
Mandy (02:50):
we need to
katy (02:51):
anyway.
Mandy (02:52):
before we start, I had sent you just last night an
Instagram post that I really
katy (02:57):
Yeah.
Mandy (02:59):
Well with this too.
And I wanted, it's a poem, and I
katy (03:03):
Yeah.
Mandy (03:04):
It's a little bit long but
katy (03:05):
Great.
Mandy (03:06):
I follow called Our Moral Imperative on Instagram.
If you look it up, if you'reinterested or if you wanna
reread this later it's a goodaccount.
This poem is written by Lyle.
Fast.
FASS.
I have no idea who that is.
Didn't have time to look, but itis a good poem and I think it is
(03:27):
very applicable to what we'rediscussing.
So I'm gonna read this first.
katy (03:32):
Hmm.
Mandy (03:32):
Why America Is Like This.
Okay?
katy (03:36):
Hmm.
Mandy (03:37):
You want to understand why America is like this, why
Trump happened, why the rotkeeps spreading, why cruelty
isn't a bug, but a feature.
It's not a mystery.
It's the oldest story we'venever told honestly, and until
we face it, we will keepcollapsing into darker versions
of ourselves.
(03:57):
country was not founded onfreedom.
It was founded on stolen land,cleared by slaughter, and built
by stolen people, broken byforce.
is the foundational transaction.
Everything else is decoration.
We did not reckon with thegenocide of native peoples.
We mythologized it.
made westerns about it.
(04:19):
We named football teams afterthe dead, we paved over bones
and called it destiny.
We did not reckon with slavery.
We declared it over and thenimmediately wrote new laws to
replace chains with prison bars.
never paid for the centuries offree labor.
For the children sold for thetorture, for the theft of time
and breath and lineage.
(04:41):
We made a new America, but leftthe engine intact.
The Confederacy lost the war,but won the memory.
We let them rewrite history inmarble.
monuments didn't go up in 1865.
They went up in the 1950s, notas remembrance, but as warning.
We'd never cleansed theinstitutions.
(05:03):
The racists became sheriffs.
Sheriffs became senators and thelogic of white supremacy
adapted, changing shape,changing code, but never losing
its grip.
That's why America electsracists, not in spite of our
history, but because of it.
When the mask slips and thecandidate says the quiet part
(05:24):
out loud, it doesn't alienatethe country.
It clarifies it.
Trump didn't invent any of this.
He just said it without shame.
And for millions, that was thefantasy.
A man who would take everyburied cruelty and wear it like
a crown.
This is why they're banningbooks.
Why they're rewriting curricula,why the very mention of racism
(05:45):
or history now sets off alarmsbecause they know what we'd find
if we looked too closely acountry terrified of its own
reflection.
Reparations aren't radical.
They're overdue.
Truth telling isn't divisive.
It's the only way out.
if we don't learn from Germany,if we don't enshrine what
happened, criminalize itssymbols and build laws that make
(06:09):
it unrepeatable, then we aretelling the future exactly what
we're willing to tolerate.
Again, America doesn't confrontits breaking points.
It buries them, calls it pride,wraps it in Anthem and flag.
Things don't disappear.
They grow back meaner, we arerunning out of time to break the
(06:31):
cycle.
katy (06:32):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (06:33):
our podcast is about.
katy (06:35):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (06:36):
things.
They're the
katy (06:38):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (06:38):
They have been enshrined into all of our systems,
educational, law, legal,business, all of it.
you're willing to take a hardlook at that and admit it and do
very difficult work of trying toundo that, it, this is what it's
(07:00):
become.
katy (07:01):
Yeah,
Mandy (07:02):
new.
It's always been here.
katy (07:04):
yeah.
especially this time of yearwhen it's the 4th of July and
longtime listeners will know.
I live in Iowa where Mandy and Imet as little, little baby kids.
Yes.
But, the president was in Iowaright before the 4th of July to
give this big speech announcingthe plans for the.
(07:26):
Nation's big birthday coming upand like all the things going on
this year, it is still odd to methat he chose Des Moines for
that speech.
It's just, it's like, I mean,I'm sure it makes sense in terms
of his base and the image he'strying to project.
in some ways Iowa probably isthe poster child for everything
(07:50):
that poem is about.
It's the state that has theleast native land left, like
basically 99% of the tall grassprairie and oak Savannah has
been converted to bigagricultural farms.
So it's interesting that youdrive through the state and
it's, so much of it is quotecountryside, but almost none of
(08:11):
it is
Mandy (08:13):
countries thing.
katy (08:14):
in both sense of the word,
Mandy (08:15):
to
katy (08:15):
Right.
So in some ways it's like, ohyeah, this, this maybe is kind
of ground zero in a way for, forwhite supremacy, settlement, et
cetera.
But yeah, that, that poem,especially this week, is really
important.
And I, I agree.
I think that is exactly whatwe're doing with this podcast.
when I try to understand my owncareer as a social studies
(08:38):
teacher and then a professor ofsocial studies education, and
now someone who's like, youknow, still writing books and
researching and.
Helping schools and districtsfigure out what it is that we
teach young people about who weare.
That's the heart of that poem.
Like what are the stories wetell about ourselves?
Who is the we Even telling thestory, like who's us, who's
(09:01):
them, all of that.
that is like the singlemotivating force for my entire
career.
I think that that's what I ammost passionate about and so.
Disturbed by how far back downthe hill, it seems like we've
rolled.
Mandy (09:20):
Interestingly,
katy (09:21):
to,
Mandy (09:22):
I feel like this.
Helps me in some way have alittle more compassion for
people are
katy (09:33):
mm-hmm.
Mandy (09:34):
that, what I would call the opposite side of us, or like
the MAGA side, because feel likeinstitutions in this rewriting
of history has been soeffective.
katy (09:45):
Mm.
Mandy (09:46):
where people grew up and the culture that they grew up
in,
katy (09:49):
Mm
Mandy (09:50):
stories they heard.
How else are
katy (09:53):
mm.
Mandy (09:53):
they to know that that's not true?
Although at
katy (09:58):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (09:58):
think like you have access to the internet in the
big wide world and at some pointyou
katy (10:02):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (10:03):
wake up and recognize
katy (10:05):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (10:06):
But at least from that starting
katy (10:09):
Hmm.
Mandy (10:09):
this has been.
Incredibly
katy (10:13):
Yeah.
Mandy (10:13):
indoctrinated into
katy (10:15):
Oh, totally.
It's been so effective.
I mean, it's that line about howthe Confederacy lost the war,
but won the memory.
Mandy (10:21):
Mm-hmm.
katy (10:21):
I was just re-listening to our interview with Hassan Kwame
Jefferies, the historian whoreally focuses us on teaching
hard history and has a podcastabout it.
And he's a professor at the OhioState University and we, it was
such a great conversation.
I love talking with him.
And he, he was talking aboutworking with college students
and teaching them thesehistories and he said that the.
(10:45):
The number one response he getsis that people are angry and
they're not angry with him forteaching them this history.
They're angry with the otheradults in their lives who lied
to them.
They're angry with their formerteachers, they're angry with
their parents.
And he talked about how moms inparticular, he just talked about
the fear that they're going tolose their children, and, and he
(11:09):
said that what I want people tounderstand is what the stakes
are is that.
To participate in these lies andto bring your children up into
that means that you are risking,increasingly losing your kids to
really radical extremists andpeople very, very explicitly
dedicated to white supremacy andexplicitly dedicated to.
(11:34):
Pretty awful cruel,authoritarian regimes like that.
That's the, he's like, that'sthe game you're playing.
You know, like, I'm not playingthat with my kids because like,
that's not, no one's coming formy kid.
You know?
In that way it's this idea thatthe.
Like confronting the lie andmaking those reparations is
(11:54):
honestly just so much easier.
Like, do that, you know, likeit's, it's just the classic,
like it's gonna be painful inthis moment, but the benefit is
that we can move forward in ahealthy healing sort of way.
Mandy (12:08):
Yep.
katy (12:09):
like constant upkeep of the lie is so.
Dangerous and,
Mandy (12:16):
Mm-hmm.
katy (12:16):
I mean it, and I honestly, to bring it back to this book
that we're reading, this firstchapter was that she's gonna
focus, I think, on differentwomen each time.
Mandy (12:26):
few different women.
This chapter is, there areseveral women in it.
not like the main ones that shetalks about in the introduction
that are kind of
katy (12:36):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (12:37):
But there's a few specific.
Women in here whose stories shefollows.
And the whole, is just veryexplicit about actual work that
went into it being carried outby women.
There's this theme of like themen legislate
katy (12:54):
mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (12:58):
on the individual local level.
katy (13:02):
It is that song.
I love this song and I'm gonnabutcher it because I'm not a
good singer.
And you have to be like anexceptional singer to make this
song sound good.
And I can't think of who singsit.
You'll know.
I think it's it.
It's called Women's Work.
Like, ha ha ha, this Women'sWork.
Do you know this song I'mtalking about?
Mandy (13:20):
sure I do.
katy (13:21):
It is from the eighties.
It's the same song that wentviral a couple years ago because
it was on Stranger Things likerunning up that hill.
But do you know that song?
Oh my God.
Don't make me try to sing morebecause I'm just gonna embarrass
myself.
Mandy (13:35):
looking up though.
katy (13:36):
Kate
Mandy (13:37):
Bush.
katy (13:38):
Bush.
Thank you.
it's the most gorgeous song.
This women's work.
it's so pretty.
Mandy (13:43):
we're done.
katy (13:43):
we think about women's work so often as being like
unappreciated, undervaluedbecause it's providing like.
This really essential nurturingand social lubricant.
That sounds so gross.
But you know, it's like, that'show, when I hear the phrase
women's work, that's what Ithink of is like the
(14:04):
unappreciated.
Like heartbeat of what'shappening in such a positive,
like a nurturing, loving sort ofway.
But this chapter was all aboutlike the very, very dark side of
women's work, like the way thatthese women were, this line that
really hit me.
This is page 25.
(14:25):
The fact that women often hadthe most access to and knowledge
of the places where this racialclassification would occur.
The bedroom, the birthing room,and the classroom enhanced their
alleged genetic proclivity fordetecting mixed race
individuals.
The midwife had to certify raceon birth certificates.
Jim Crow state policy instructedthe white school teacher to
report to the schoolsuperintendent's office
(14:45):
children.
She suspected of mixed raceheritage.
The social worker recorded theracial identities of the
families with whom she worked,deciding race.
Based on a host of behavioraland hereditary observations,
often mixed with a dose of localgossip, the local registrar had
to turn in marriage licenses toeach state's Bureau of Vital
Statistics.
The RIA and accompanying Eugeniclegislation nationwide created
(15:07):
public policies that requiredenforcement by those with
familiar female faces like that.
That version of women's work isfucking creepy, you know?
Mandy (15:16):
Mm-hmm.
katy (15:17):
And terrifying.
The RIA, by the way, is theRacial Integrity Act, which is
passed in the 1920s.
Mandy (15:24):
was just in Virginia, which if anyone who's listening
still lives in Virginia or isfrom there, I'd be very
interested in any of yourcomments
katy (15:33):
Oh, for sure.
Mandy (15:33):
about this Virginia background and how it still
plays out there.
But basically what the RacialIntegrity Act said was that
individuals seeking marriage orthose born after 1912 had to
certify their racial identitywith local officials It changed
the criteria for whiteness benot one drop non-white blood,
(16:01):
except
katy (16:02):
Yep.
Mandy (16:02):
exception, which was anyone who was one 16th Native
American could still beclassified as white.
And that has something to dowith like descendants of like
Pocahontas, because there's
katy (16:17):
That was wild to me.
Yes.
Like it's okay to be descendedfrom Pocahontas.
That honestly, we should just doa whole mini episode on that
because, or major episode,because that is like a
absolutely, like a whole thingand her life is fascinating and
tragic and just, it is bananas.
So yes, like if, if you'reclaiming that connection, like
(16:39):
we will, we'll.
Stamp that with a stamp ofapproval that it changed the
definition of black from quote,one quarter black blood to quote
one 16th black blood.
That is, I think that is one ofthose to the poem that you read
that it, that I, I knew kind ofin broad strokes, but to see it
(16:59):
that specifically in a law, thatit made things more race like
somehow you took this superracist system and you made it
more.
Racist and you change thedefinition
Mandy (17:12):
Mm-hmm.
katy (17:13):
what counted as this or that.
It's such a great example of howrace is a social construct.
Like these, the categories ofrace that we have are not just
invented, but they were inventedfor a reason, which is to sort
people so that you can have onegroup of people justified in
their exploitation of anothergroup of people.
Mandy (17:34):
Yeah.
katy (17:35):
that is the invention of these categories and that was
just in, in like honestly, itwas a couple years before my
grandparents were born, whichwho?
They're still alive.
Like this is within ageneration.
This wasn't like 1687.
This is 1924,
Mandy (17:53):
Mm-hmm.
katy (17:54):
they crank'em up even higher.
Mandy (17:56):
Mm-hmm.
katy (17:56):
Yep.
Mandy (17:57):
she uses a term later in the chapter that I thought was
and very helpful for reallypointing out what this is.
And she calls it documentarygenocide.
She says institutional memory,generational instruction and
local prejudices continued thepractice of racial segregation
(18:20):
and documentary genocide longafter the law pronounced it
dead.
Because you take thesebackgrounds of people that were
very diverse, like this
katy (18:30):
Yeah.
Mandy (18:30):
area in Virginia that she talks about in this chapter
katy (18:34):
Yes.
Mandy (18:35):
Of white colonial settlers, but that came in and
they married
katy (18:38):
of mixing of families.
Right,
Mandy (18:41):
people and slaves and all of that.
And so they were throughoutgenerations a very like mixed
community, and they had
katy (18:50):
right.
Mandy (18:51):
those different designations and then this law
made everyone be reclassified asblack or white, and
katy (18:59):
And the fact that it came down, honestly to sometimes
white women being like, I don'tlike you.
Click, like, then I've, I'vesorted you in this way.
I've exactly like, you made memad at church last week.
Like the power that they had to.
Alter the course of thesefamily's histories based on how
they classified people in thesevery like bureaucratic sort of
(19:22):
ways is sickening it.
I mean it, I honestly, I know Isaid I didn't even remember that
I read this chapter, but nowthat we're getting into it, I
remember that I was like,
Mandy (19:30):
back.
katy (19:31):
I was like nauseous, honestly, reading it, there were
a couple of other phrases sheused that I thought were really.
Powerful one was, the ways thatwhite college educated women,
which of course this would'vebeen like the first generation
really, of white collegeeducated women, would have to
participate in the actualcartography of race, like the
literal mapping of race.
And then later she said whitesegregation.
(19:52):
Women had assumed crucial rolesin the domestic production of a
white supremacist state gross.
Mandy (20:01):
Yeah, and they, the interesting thing is that they
had these roles and in thistime, they were very well known.
People knew their names, theyknew their involvement.
They were involved in a coupleof different groups that we'll
talk about in a little bit.
But you look back at the writtenhistory.
mostly erased from it.
Like she talks about the first,this woman, she starts it with
(20:24):
Margaret Eileen Goodman, who isa registrar in Rockbridge County
who had all of thiscommunication back and forth
with these people that wereinvolved in this kind of
institutionalization of the racecategories.
Her name not really mentionedthough.
Anywhere in actual historicalwriting
katy (20:46):
mm-hmm.
Mandy (20:46):
Her obituary doesn't even mention that she worked as the
local registrar.
And then there's these other,this work of these college
educated women mostly from SweetBriar College.
there's scrapbooks.
She talks about this briefcorrespondence that they're a
part of, but other than that,it's just like letters and
(21:09):
census records and small things.
There's no written history ofthis, and she says in the end,
this historical selection doesvaluable work.
Rendering invisible the womenand daily acts that secured
white supremacy.
katy (21:24):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (21:26):
is the myth of a system that persisted with leaders at
the center, but without localpeople in local communities.
This writing out of whitewomen's efforts to police the
racial order promotes the whitesupremacist fiction.
That segregation was natural andhappened without workers.
katy (21:44):
Yes.
I think it also promotes thefiction that if you just adjust
things at the top, then thatfixes the situation.
Like if we just pass a new law,Or if we just have a better
national leader,
Mandy (21:58):
Mm-hmm.
katy (21:58):
then that cleans it up.
But when you will raise the workthat these women were doing,
very intentionally, might I addlike, let's just name Margaret
Eileen Goodman as someone who isnot like accidentally doing
things or like inadvertently orlike unwillingly doing things.
She was very committed to makingsure that this law.
(22:21):
Sorted people into these veryrigid categories and when we
erase that, like, yes, itseemed, it then allows this myth
like, oh, segregation is justthe natural state of things that
you don't need workers.
But it also, for the peoplefighting white supremacy, I
think it.
It distracts us by thinkinglike, oh, if we just get a
different law or a differentperson in power, we'll be better
off.
(22:41):
It's like, no, there are workerbees everywhere.
Very happy to participate inthis because they were getting
something out of it.
Like they had, like, think aboutthe power.
She must have felt, I mean, shehad it, she had the power and
what that must have felt likefor her as.
You know, a white woman in the1920s to, to, to like that, that
(23:06):
doesn't go away because you havea new president
Mandy (23:10):
Yeah.
katy (23:10):
you have a new law, you know?
Mandy (23:13):
Also what we've talked about, the seductiveness of this
power to women who havetraditionally been in roles
where they didn't have that kindof power.
'cause I always wonder like howeven if you have that kind of
power, you've gotta recognizehow ugly it is.
Like how do they not see that?
But I guess it's just such astark contrast to the complete
(23:37):
lack of ability that women had.
Felt politically for a longtime, even if their work, you
know, as we know, evencolonialism back in the 16, 17
katy (23:47):
for sure.
Mandy (23:47):
they were
katy (23:48):
Yeah.
Mandy (23:49):
she does say Goodman's letters pointed to the
patriarchal relationshipsreplicated by the state whereby
women on the ground implementedpolicies crafted by male
officials earning professionalaccolades, community authority,
and some income.
It created zones of racial work.
At the same time, it createdeconomic opportunities for many
(24:09):
white, middle class women.
katy (24:12):
Yeah.
Mandy (24:13):
So.
katy (24:14):
Well then, and then the wild thing, this, I was on page
31 where they were talking evenabout the men who were
legislating or, you know, comingup with these rules and laws and
then tasking the women withimplementing them.
just the sexism that is builtinto that too.
It's just such an absolute mess.
So this was when, they'retalking about the Sweet Briar
College students and theEugenics record office in Cold
(24:38):
Springs Harbor, New York.
And we've talked about CharlesDavenport before when we talked
about the eugenics movement.
Mandy (24:43):
Yep.
katy (24:43):
But he argued that.
Women's power of intuition andemotional sensitivity made them
more adept at judging andassessing the feeble-minded and
detecting bad germ plasm, asupposed biological product of
interracial mixing.
And I, I wrote in the comments,WTAF race star, like he's
(25:03):
basically describing like, oh,those ladies have good race
star, basically like.
Mandy (25:10):
they talk about that in all of the correspondence they
found between these women andthis Walter Blecher, who I think
was he county recorder?
katy (25:19):
Mm.
Something like that.
Mandy (25:20):
and he was one of the authors, I believe, of the RIA
when it was passed.
So, all these women would writeto him and say.
How should we classify such andsuch a situation?
And ask him like, would a bloodtest help or would this help?
And she says, Blecher affirmedthat no scientific test could
(25:41):
show race.
And that race has to be decidedupon what can be seen and
learned.
Puker continued.
You and the sheriff and anyother intelligent citizen are as
capable of judging from theappearance of the child as the
most learned scientists.
katy (25:58):
It's such garbage.
I mean, it's just, wild to methat they can even say yeah,
we're making this up.
Because I was thinking of oh,what if there had been like
genetic testing at this time?
You know, where you could reallylike.
Map out exactly who was relatedto who and whatever, whatever.
Like the 23 and me of the 1920s,which I think I have problems
with 23 and me, but you know,it's this, it's like it doesn't
(26:20):
even matter because that's notthe point.
That's not the point.
It's like we're creating thesecategories and we have the power
to enforce them.
the college students that theywere bringing in called the.
They were called theinvestigators, and it just made
me so mad to think of these like20-year-old, 19-year-old white
girls showing up in thesecommunities.
(26:43):
And they would go in with theirclip words and, and watch kids
and send surveys to schoolteachers to basically sort kids
based on behaviors that theyobserved.
And there was this, I mean, thismade me just so mad as a.
Former education professor inparticular, just thinking about
the ways that.
(27:04):
These traditions have evolvedand not really gone away in
terms of teacher education insome ways.
But it talks about this onecategorization of children.
And among the 55 students listedin a chart on capabilities nine
students were described asfairly capable, capable, and
average.
22 as hopeless, stupid,feeble-minded, and dull.
(27:28):
20 escaped with no addeddescription.
And it's like, who the fuck arethese women to go in?
You know what I mean?
Just like absolute just, itenraged me to read that, that
these children are being, like,kids are being categorized in
these horrible ways based on Godknows what, like observations
(27:49):
these people think they'remaking and then that's what's
sorting them.
Mandy (27:53):
yeah.
katy (27:54):
I was
Mandy (27:55):
mean, I
katy (27:55):
really
Mandy (27:56):
'cause
katy (27:56):
angry.
Mandy (27:57):
somewhat about like the.
of public school teachers andwhite women in particular in
that and how deep that goes andstill does.
katy (28:05):
So deep.
Mandy (28:06):
brought that up about like it was public school
teachers
katy (28:09):
Yep.
Mandy (28:10):
to look at these, they talk about in 19,
katy (28:14):
Right.
Mandy (28:14):
as 1908,
katy (28:16):
I.
Mandy (28:17):
the Virginia's Board of Charities and Corrections send a
survey to public school teachersabout quote unquote defectives.
katy (28:25):
Yeah.
Mandy (28:25):
Just from the
katy (28:26):
Or the book.
Mandy (28:27):
to send a survey about call Human beings
katy (28:32):
yes.
Right.
Mandy (28:33):
and they were to mark behaviors that indicated signs
of inbreeding in addition tospasms and pilfering.
The checklist includedcarelessness, inance and
excessive exaggerations, and I'mlike, so kids.
katy (28:48):
A child, right?
Or like, especially like if youare someone open to completing
this survey, you suck as aperson.
And my guess is this kid doesn'ttrust or like you
Mandy (28:58):
Mm-hmm.
katy (28:59):
and so the, you might observe this kid being a.
You know, like sassy to you ornot wanting to talk to you.
It's like, yeah,'cause you are abitch.
And that kid can tell and thatkid doesn't wanna have anything
to do with you.
Like, that's what's happening.
You know, I, the the book in1926, there was an all this
quote, research, let's use thatterm loosely with regards to
(29:19):
this data.
Arthur Estabrook and IvanMcDougall published a book
called Mongrel Virginians.
And that was where they have allof these different racial
typologies and classificationsand are.
Like describing how you can telllike who's defective and who
isn't, and just of course it'sall racialized and Yeah, when I
(29:41):
think then this is the, youknow, 1920s, you think about the
decision in 1954, the brownversus supportive education
decision that says we need todesegregate schools.
And the way that most places didit was to shut down all of the
schools for children of colorand force them to attend white
(30:01):
schools.
how terrifying that must havebeen for families when these are
the women working in thoseschools to know that that's
where you're sending your kidsand there's actually.
I'm thinking of a professor Ihad who is just an incredible
scholar, Gloria Ladson Billings.
We should read her work at somepoint for sure.
she talks about brown versusboard often being lifted up as
(30:22):
like this golden standard forcivil rights movement, when
really it was the biggest massfiring of black teachers in
history, and that you had theseblack children then being forced
to attend schools with whiteteachers who hated them.
And who, who thought thesethings about them.
Like it's, it's awful.
It's awful.
Mandy (30:41):
been reinforced, like
katy (30:44):
Yes.
Mandy (30:44):
sent these surveys.
They were the ones like who wereinvolved in all of this supposed
research.
They, okay, so she says thispart, like the research also
helped shape the lives of whitefemales.
talking about the Sweet Briarstudents, but who were, you
know, a lot of them becameteachers whose observations
katy (31:03):
Yes,
Mandy (31:04):
as social work
katy (31:05):
yes,
Mandy (31:07):
like
katy (31:08):
yes.
Mandy (31:08):
They
katy (31:09):
As like facts.
Mandy (31:10):
work, and then they
katy (31:11):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (31:13):
Because of their higher education, their training, their
work with all of these expertsof the day.
These were people atuniversities doing this
research.
And know, at the, like theeugenics, cold Harbor Springs, I
mean, these were all, the ColdHarbor Eugenics office was like
a government office.
So they carried
katy (31:32):
Right.
Mandy (31:33):
of this quote unquote legitimacy behind them.
katy (31:37):
Well and legitimacy that lingered for so long because
she, Elizabeth Gil GillespieMare also talks about how even
though the law, the RacialIntegrity Act, ends up getting
repealed in Virginia.
Mandy (31:49):
don't
katy (31:50):
but she talks about how even in the nineties, 1990s,
even in the two thousands, thatthere were stories about, babies
being born in hospitals and thehospital giving the birth mother
a birth certificate thatclassified their baby.
And that the, the mother issaying that's not like I reject
(32:10):
that classification like this.
This didn't go away.
At the end of the twenties orthe thirties or the forties or
the fifties or this, like, itjust kept going on and these,
it's not that.
You know, the specific womenthat we're talking about were no
longer working in thosepositions, but they had trained
(32:30):
the women who were working inthose positions.
And those logics still, stillstill stuck.
You know, that legitimacy isstill stuck.
Can we talk about, another womanthat gets named in this chapter?
Louise Burley from Richmond.
I had a lot.
Here are my notes.
Just from the margins for fuck'ssake.
Oof.
Oh no.
Exclamation mark.
(32:51):
She's obsessed.
Fuck her.
Those are the margins that Ihave for this lady.
Mandy (32:56):
I have a lot highlighted in that section about her as
well.
katy (33:00):
Mm.
Mandy (33:00):
was just as a Richmond Virginia resident.
katy (33:06):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (33:08):
I don't know anything else about why she got to the
point that she was at.
She was just at the center ofthese white supremacist
politics.
She was radcliffe educated.
katy (33:22):
Yeah,
Mandy (33:22):
then
katy (33:22):
I think like a wealthy white woman in Richmond with
like money to burn and whitesupremacy to uphold.
Mandy (33:29):
and then she met John Powell, who is also a Richmond
resident and the 1922 founder ofthe Anglo-Saxon Clubs of
America.
Anytime you're looking atjoining a club, first of all,
just be suspicious.
But if it's named
katy (33:47):
I.
Mandy (33:48):
if there's a racial classification in the name,
let's think twice, but hefounded this.
And then they put on thisfestival.
Yes.
katy (34:03):
Well, they connected over the arts, that they were both
really into music and theaterand literature I think he was a
classical pianist.
there was a theater they weretrying to bring in and put on
plays, that would support theidea that.
Anglo-Saxons were the heart ofAmerican civilization.
they organized the White TopMountain Folk Festival, which
(34:26):
honestly, just that name.
I was like, I'd go to that.
That sounds good.
Like a mountain folk musicfestival.
Okay.
But when it's connected to this,oh my God.
not just to celebrateAnglo-Saxon.
Folk music as quote, America'strue music tradition, but
actively rejecting black musicand musicians as quote, inferior
mimicry.
(34:46):
It's insane.
Mandy (34:47):
Yeah, that's absolute
katy (34:49):
That's their music festival.
Mandy (34:51):
that's terrible.
It's terrible.
And then they also worked theycollaborated with.
These other individuals, sobiology professor at University
of Virginia and Eugenics, IvyLewis, which that name is
katy (35:05):
Yes.
We've talked about.
Yep.
Mandy (35:07):
our eugenics thing.
Oh, and then this
katy (35:09):
Yep.
Mandy (35:10):
Ker, who was the state registrar, then I had comments
in the margins about this.
They also have the support,support of Amy Garvey.
was the wife of BlackNationalist Marcus Garvey.
And they, the Garvey's advocatedracial separatism, which then
they felt, gave them legitimacybecause
katy (35:30):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (35:30):
had these black nationalists supporting
separation.
And I wrote in the margin whatin the Candace Owens.
katy (35:38):
It is wild.
Mandy (35:40):
I know we've talked about this and that, you know, racial
categories are very fluid andnot set.
And also the ideologies withinthose are varied.
katy (35:53):
Right,
Mandy (35:54):
way of looking at these
katy (35:55):
No.
Mandy (35:56):
does complicate stuff and it just gives these white
supremacists like another thingto hold on to.
Even though, so they claimedthese black nationalist
supporters and fanciedthemselves more rational and
learned counterpart to the KKK.
though she says officers, allmen who held positions in the
(36:18):
Richmond chapter had also allbeen KKK members.
katy (36:23):
Yes, the layers, this is like a shit lasagna because the
layers of things are so deep.
Like there's sexism, there'sclassism, like, oh, we're better
white supremacists than poorwhite people.
Poor white people.
Like your starter group is theK, k, K.
But then if, you know, if youreally prove yourself, you can
work up the ranks to these like.
Quote, classier, fancier ways tobe a white supremacist.
(36:45):
It's all just so gross.
And I, I am really curious aboutthat connection with Amy Garvey
and the, just thinking about theways that separatism and
segregation or like supremacyaren't all exactly synonymous.
And yeah, just, just wanting todig into that a little bit more
because I don't think blacknationalism is akin to white
(37:07):
nationalism.
I think they are different.
Ideologies.
I, there's like some overlap insome ways, and clearly if these
folks, you know, felt like theyhad some sort of mutual
interest, but yeah, that, Ithought that was like, Ooh,
there's a rabbit hole I wanna godown for sure.
this lady was really busythough.
Louise Burley was very dedicatedto using the arts to support
(37:29):
white supremacy.
She, Created literature anddisseminated it about the
potential decline of whitecivilization.
She was a ghost writer for theeugenics books of Realtor Turned
World Traveler, Ernest Cox.
There's a.
Gem, if ever there was onerealtor turned world traveler,
author of Eugenics books.
(37:49):
She was a lobbyist for theRacial Integrity Act.
She was an advocate forfollow-up legislation that would
mandate segregation at allpublic performances.
She wanted to get the Bureau ofVital Statistics expanded so
that people could be furtherpoliced and anyone who was
trying to quote pass could be.
Fared it out.
She was a member of Virginia'sBoard of Censors where she
(38:12):
policed interracial sexualtransgressions in film, which
this is where you remember whenwe were talking to you about the
banning like censorship of musicand Tipper Gore and like all of
that.
Mandy (38:23):
Mm-hmm.
katy (38:24):
like the women who were the most supposedly pearl
clutching appalled, they'rewatching a lot of stuff and
they're listening to, it's like,are you really appalled or is
this cover for you to watch?
Mandy (38:37):
Yeah.
katy (38:38):
films with a whole lot of, you know, interracial sexual
transgressions.
I, it just is like, wow, you'rereally spending a whole lot of
time on this.
And then she, I'm, she's justlike the original Karen.
It sounds like apologies to allKaren's listening who are not
this way, but she would writethe leadership of the.
(38:58):
The, at Anglo-Saxon Clubs ofAmerica when she felt the
sensors were, were being toolenient and just like really
spending all her time policingall of this so much.
and I think just an example ofall that labor that the.
Men's legislative work relied onto make that legislation
(39:22):
effective.
She joined the Women's RacialIntegrity Club of Richmond.
This 43 fancy ladies who wouldreview scientific evidence in
quotes that supported eugenics,that they would lobby for
governments.
They were connected with localclassroom teachers.
They would.
Give talks places, and these arejust like fancy ladies again,
(39:47):
using the resources that theyhave to police and enforce white
supremacy.
Mandy (39:57):
Yeah, and I think, I mean, so Louise and Goodman were
like the two major players thatshe talks about in here.
katy (40:05):
Mm-hmm.
Mandy (40:06):
right before we wrap this up, I also wanna say like, I
think it's important thesewomen's names are used,
katy (40:13):
Yeah.
Mandy (40:14):
we do recognize that they were individuals.
for me, just as a warning to thewhite women today who are also
playing
katy (40:23):
Mm.
Mandy (40:23):
bullshit, like your name will be in books.
People will read about youlater.
You should not get away withthis, but they talk about the
three women from Amherst County,red Cross Worker, Louisa
Hubbard.
Former Bear Mountain missionaryworker, Isabel Wagner and Nurse
Ms.
Theresa Ambler were women thathelped track down the other
(40:45):
women who were amenable to thework of doing this
classification.
they also helped to train theundergraduate women from Sweet
Briar College who did thisresearch.
Are a few that they named of theseven.
Sweet, brighter students thatincluded Gwendolyn Watson,
Martha Inger and Eleanor Harid,who earned the title of
(41:07):
investigators for their detailedsurveys of these families that
lived in this area.
They recorded things such assize and condition of homes,
complexion of children,religious practices, literacy,
cleanliness, sexual behaviors,income and work ethic.
So are people that, and it takespeople.
To carry out this work just likeit takes people to do it.
(41:30):
Now, I think of like all ofthese ICE raids going on in the
communities, challenging
katy (41:35):
Right.
Mandy (41:35):
workers and
katy (41:36):
Yeah.
Mandy (41:36):
like, cross over now.
Quit your
katy (41:40):
Yes,
Mandy (41:40):
like
katy (41:41):
Don't do this.
Mandy (41:42):
you make this work.
This will
katy (41:46):
We, the machine requires cogs.
Mandy (41:48):
Yeah,
katy (41:49):
Yes.
Don't, don't be a cog, be awrench.
Like get, I cannot stress whatyou're saying enough.
I cannot cosign that enough.
Just, it requires the labor ofall these people and, and the
fact is that I don't doubt.
here's my interpretation, isthat they get a taste of power
(42:12):
and it feels real good to Lordthat power over someone, and
that has to be part of what'shappening right now is that
there are people in thesepositions that are disappearing
children and people who have.
Mandy (42:30):
citizens
katy (42:31):
Citizens.
Yes.
and it doesn't matter if you'recitizen, you should not.
this isn't humane.
but yes.
Even when it's
Mandy (42:38):
I'm
katy (42:38):
like illegal, according to whatever laws we have,
Mandy (42:41):
threat when they are.
katy (42:43):
it's appalling.
There are other ways to havepower and there are other ways
to be empowered that actuallybenefit the collective and help
us be a loving, just faircommunity.
This is not the only way to feellike you have power, feel like
you matter, and there are peopleshowing up for.
(43:03):
Neighbors and friends and familywho are being targeted, but not
enough.
That's for sure.
And just thinking about how youused this word before, how
seductive it can be to think,well, this is my job and I have
to fill out this form and I haveto turn in this thing.
But it's, that is the banalityof evil.
Like that is where it allhappens.
(43:26):
And it, it's, the examples we'rereading about are maybe a
hundred years ago, but that.
Doesn't mean that they don'tstill happen all the time, every
day in hospitals, in classrooms,in government offices that are,
you know, the basement ofwhatever place.
Like, and if you are working onthose places, like another way
(43:48):
to have power is to disobey, tonot do it, to not send in the
forum or to not do the thing.
You don't like that.
Use your power in ways that.
Protect vulnerable people and,and not uphold white supremacy.
I mean, it's just back to thepoem
Mandy (44:07):
Yep.
katy (44:07):
you read at the beginning.
Be a wrench, not a cog.
Mandy (44:10):
for
katy (44:10):
gonna be my, my mantra.
Well, I can't wait to readchapter two and then reread it
and read it a third time so thatI remember that.
I've already read it twice.
But it looks like it is gonnadive into the world of school
teachers, and so I am.
Eager to, to do that.
But thank you to everybodylistening and thank you to
everybody reading along andplease let us know questions,
(44:34):
thoughts, especially if you'reliving in Virginia, it would be
great to hear what people haveexperienced themselves, what
they remember.
You know, I'm thinking thesewomen likely have grandchildren
who are our age, older,great-grandchildren.
How do people negotiate thesefamily legacies?
You know, that's a big part ofthis too.
Mandy (44:54):
Yep, for sure.
And don't be afraid to.
Question things, I guess.
Like if you're in some sort ofposition where you feel like you
can or you have the opportunity,like yeah, for sure.
That's gonna be our new mantra.
katy (45:11):
Fellow wrench.
Mandy (45:12):
We'll see you next
katy (45:13):
My, my wench.
Mandy (45:15):
Oh, I like that.
katy (45:18):
I'll see you soon.
Mandy (45:19):
Bye.
katy (45:19):
Bye.
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