Mothers of Massive Resistance: Chapter 2

Send us a text

In this episode, the hosts delve into a heated discussion about the deeply entrenched white supremacist narratives in the American education system, sparked by the second chapter of McRae's book, Mother's of Massive Resistance. They recount the persistent work of historical figures like Mildred Lewis Rutherford in influencing school curriculums to perpetuate biased histories. The conversation touches on the frustrations and professional insights of both hosts as they connect these historical trends to current events and policies, highlighting the enduring impact on today's education. They also explore contemporary conservative strategies, such as religious curriculum in Texas, and discuss the potential for progressive inroads. The episode concludes with a call to action for listeners to support organizations and efforts that promote inclusive and accurate educational narratives.

00:00 Introduction and Initial Reactions

00:28 The Emotional Impact of the Book

02:42 Professional Backgrounds and Personal Stakes

06:55 Historical Figures and Their Influence

12:00 Dominant Narratives vs. Counter Narratives

16:09 Modern Implications and Personal Anecdotes

20:24 Rutherford's Legacy and Modern Education

33:14 Local Control and Federal Oversight

35:15 States' Rights and Progressive Uses

35:45 Protecting Children: A Cover for White Supremacy

39:28 The Role of Education in Shaping Narratives

41:30 Textbook Bias and Historical Erasure

44:02 The Impact of Racism in Education

52:26 Efforts to Counteract Historical Erasure

54:53 Controversial Curriculum Changes in Texas

01:08:36 Strategies for Challenging the Status Quo

01:12:23 Call to Action and Conclusion

Links:

https://www.chalkbeat.org/2025/07/17/texas-bible-bluebonnet-lessons-may-spur-parent-opt-outs-after-mahmoud/

https://www.socialstudies.org/sites/default/files/view-article-2020-12/se8406335.pdf

https://www.zinnedproject.org

https://rethinkingschools.org

Episode Transcript

Mandy (00:01):
Hi,

katy (00:02):
Hi.

Mandy (00:03):
we had to start right away.
Katie said we didn't even haveto chat.
She's like, no, there's a lot.
And I agree.
I was rereading this last nightand making my comments in the
margins.
I was like, oh yeah, that andthat and that part.
So,

katy (00:19):
literally racing.
I read it this hour before wewere meeting because that's how
my brain works, and knowing it'sthe

Mandy (00:27):
yeah.

katy (00:28):
it is.
I wanna make sure I'm nice andfresh, and I literally, I know I
just had coffee and, you know,it's like the morning, but I
have like the sweats.
My heart is racing.
I'm so angry and, and I knowthat it's because this is
hitting on my core.
Professional identity as aneducator and things that I've

(00:50):
dedicated my entire career tothat it, it's like made me so
sick and so angry and just alsolike overwhelmed, I don't know
if discouraged is the rightword, but just like, goddammit,
it is so deep and so long and

Mandy (01:05):
Mm-hmm.

katy (01:05):
funded and so entrenched and like I, I just read it like
again, I have like the shakesafter reading this chapter.

Mandy (01:14):
Yeah.

katy (01:15):
and God, there's like a million things to talk about
just in the news as always, butI feel like when we're doing a
book club, we can't stop tofocus on the news because we
have a book chapter to read.

Mandy (01:25):
I mean, this could be in the news today, honestly.

katy (01:28):
I have something to read to you texted to me by a good
friend this morning that is likethe most pertinent story I could
imagine that I will probablyread the whole thing to you.
it's infuriating.
But how are you?

Mandy (01:43):
you know, I, right now, I'm not gonna complain.
We're on a little vacation in alittle port town off of Seattle,
and I'm like, why don't I livehere?

katy (01:54):
I

Mandy (01:55):
Why do I live in the desert?
There's so many trees here.
So it's so pretty.

katy (02:01):
for another day.
I do worry about you living inthe desert.
I'm not gonna lie, like, thefuture of water is not good.
And I don't like

Mandy (02:09):
No.

katy (02:10):
in a desert where it's already a massive problem.

Mandy (02:13):
Oh, there's lots of other problems.
Let me guarantee you.
That's not probably the worst ofthem.
But yeah.

katy (02:18):
it.
And it's filled with nitratesfrom runoff, from fertilizers.
So don't worry, it's either

Mandy (02:22):
There you go.

katy (02:23):
dirty water.
It seems like our two oh, it'sdark and

Mandy (02:27):
Yeah.

katy (02:27):
Well, I'm very happy to see you

Mandy (02:29):
And we will get into this whole

katy (02:33):
ohy.
Yy.

Mandy (02:33):
thing because I know you've got lots to add.
I mean, me, I just have likeanger to add, but you probably
have background to add, so

katy (02:40):
I mean, this is my

Mandy (02:41):
I know

katy (02:42):
people who've been longtime listeners Mandy is a
medical professional love andappreciate and admire your
medical brilliance and havepersonally.
You know, learned so much fromyou, so I appreciate that.
My background is as a teacherand an education professor
working in teacher education andresearch, and you know that was

(03:06):
my job for many years and now Ileft my tenured position and do
consulting full-time for schoolsand districts and, recently
started a publishing companywith a friend of mine so that we
could make sure that students,young people, everyone in Iowa,
the home state where Mandy and Iare from, and how we met when we
were little bi that people haveaccess to that have been erased,

(03:32):
marginalized, which is what thiswhole chapter is about.
At one point I even wrote inthe, the margins, like, let me
find this.
Whoever finds this book somedayand reads my notes is gonna
think I had, like, lost myabsolute mind because the, my
margin comments are, really allover the place.
What, but I, I was like, I thinkI'm the anti Rutherford, this

(03:57):
woman we're gonna learn about,like, I'm, I'm sort of like.
Her opposite, but just for Iowa.
I, yeah.
This is page 52.
I wrote, am I the AntiRutherford of Iowa?
Because this woman was just sodedicated to influencing K 12

(04:19):
students, teacher education, andthe general public to make sure
that they learned a history thatwas white supremacist.
And I was like, God, this is mynemesis.
I've met her.
I met her in the pages today.
She's dead, but her legacy liveson, and I feel very like, fueled

(04:40):
by my loathing of her and likededication to countering her
efforts.
I don't mean to put myself likeshe's.
Immensely effective in what shedid.
And I don't think, like,

Mandy (04:54):
my gosh.

katy (04:54):
wish I was a fraction of that effective.
So I don't mean to comparemyself to her in that way, but
just in terms of like what we'rededicated to and, and ironically
like what we see as the leversof power to pull and, and what
to like, how to make it work.
You know, in all of the episodeswe've done, I think your
background in medicine and mybackground in education has, it
just never ceases to amaze mehow much of what we're learning

(05:17):
about taps into our professionalbackgrounds.
Have you been shocked by that?
Because I

Mandy (05:22):
Yeah.

katy (05:22):
to this as

Mandy (05:23):
Oh yeah.

katy (05:24):
like political

Mandy (05:25):
Mm-hmm.

katy (05:26):
don't think we knew how much of our own work, like our
own careers we were going to betapping into.

Mandy (05:36):
I think that's like the thing when people say that
they're not political, like I'mnot political, I don't get into
politics.
I'm just like, you are notpaying attention.
Everything in your life ispolitical.
All relationships are political,whether they're familial work,
whatever.
Like it's all politics.

(05:56):
And so it makes sense in a waythat like we would be able to
relate what we're doing in ourlives to all of these seemingly
political things because it'sall intertwined.

katy (06:08):
Oof my

Mandy (06:09):
yeah,

katy (06:09):
Well,

Mandy (06:10):
it really does matter on individual levels.

katy (06:13):
and honestly, like whatever we did for work, I'm
guessing that it would connectto your point, you know, but the
fact that we are in education

Mandy (06:22):
Yep.

katy (06:22):
I

Mandy (06:23):
Yep.

katy (06:23):
especially important sites.
And for white women inparticular, like this book,
we're reading Mothers of MassiveResistance by Elizabeth
Gillespie McRay.
Is about the way that whitewomen in these bureaucratic
roles of like social work,nursing teaching, like quote
women's work, which has reallybeen like classed and raced

(06:45):
women's work, that where therubber meets the road for white
supremacy.
So great.

Mandy (06:55):
I did a little bit of petty detective work into
Mildred Lewis Rutherford's life

katy (07:01):
Tell me everything.

Mandy (07:02):
because that is my calling.

katy (07:04):
chapter is called Citizenship Education for a
Segregated Nation, by the way,for those following along, it's
chapter two in this book.

Mandy (07:12):
Yeah.

katy (07:12):
me your petty detective and actually, do you wanna share
the little image that you sentme earlier this week?

Mandy (07:20):
I texted Katie an image that I came across from my
Instagram feed.
'cause I think, as we've talkedabout before, my Instagram
algorithm has me down

katy (07:30):
Right,

Mandy (07:30):
like as well as a best friend,

katy (07:34):
It's like Right.
AI will be so happy to hearthat.

Mandy (07:40):
oh my gosh.
But it is like this picture of awoman giving a presentation and
the slide says, the greatestresearch skill you can have is
being a nosy bitch who wants tofind out.

katy (07:51):
so true.

Mandy (07:51):
And that is so true.

katy (07:55):
paint me a picture of Mildred Lewis Rutherford.
Obviously this chapter has a lotof information about her work,
but there wasn't a tonnecessarily about her upbringing
and our theory that if peoplejust had therapy, our world
would be so much better.

Mandy (08:08):
Right

katy (08:09):
trauma you've

Mandy (08:09):
there probably is.
I mean now it's not traumathough.
It seems to be like she justembraced this.
I think one of the women wetalked about in the previous
chapter, how they got to bewhere they were.
So she was from a family thatwas part of the slave owning
elite class in Georgia.

(08:31):
And her father and then hermom's brothers.
So her maternal uncles were veryinfluential in Confederate
politics.
And they were generals in theConfederate army, all of them.
So then her mother founded theAthens Volunteer Aid Society to

(08:53):
give aid to Confederatesoldiers, like during the war
and after the war continued tohelp Confederate former
soldiers.
And then that just, it wasdedicated to remembering them
and the cause that they foughtfor.
And so she just kind of tookthat, she grew up in that whole

(09:16):
very confederate politics, likescorned.
We're gonna, you know, tell thestory the way we believe it to
be still kind of part ofsociety.
And they were the people thathad money and who were in
everything.
And so then her life was justkind of.
Dedicated to that quote unquotelost cause.
Although later we'll find out.

(09:38):
She did not like to use thatterm lost cause, because she
said it's not lost.
And she was correct.

katy (09:45):
don't know what else

Mandy (09:45):
She,

katy (09:47):
the like

Mandy (09:48):
yeah, she was,

katy (09:50):
yeah.

Mandy (09:50):
yeah.
She was very correct.
And so she went on to go toschool at the Lucy Cobb
Institute, which was known forbeing a very prestigious girl's
school in Athens.
And then she taught history andliterature in Atlanta, which is
so wild to me that you can teachhistory and literature.

(10:13):
Like the two things that I thinkserve to, I mean, I guess they
serve in both ways to give awindow.

katy (10:21):
it's, they're like, there's a couple of analogies
that I think about, like one is.
but I know nuclear energy isn'tlike awesome either, so I don't
wanna use that analogy.
but they're like a mushroom,like either can be really toxic
kill you, or it can be likereally mind expanding or
nutritious, you know, likethere,

Mandy (10:43):
Yeah.

katy (10:44):
it is a powerful tool that helps people understand
themselves, understand theirlives, understand their
communities.
And if you can wield that toolin a way that people to believe
that hierarchies are natural andjustified, you've got a lot of

(11:06):
fucking power.
Like that is the history ofinformation science, which of
course, education is a part of,but also the media also like,
you know, there's a lot ofdifferent ways people.
Have and continue to learn aboutthe world, but when you are
dedicated and it, I believe thatshe thought she was right.

(11:29):
Like I don't think she believed,like I'm constructing a
narrative that benefits me.
it seemed like she genuinelybelieved like this is just the
truth.
Capital t

Mandy (11:39):
Mm-hmm.

katy (11:39):
conveniently

Mandy (11:40):
Mm-hmm.

katy (11:41):
her and her family, you know?

Mandy (11:44):
Right.

katy (11:44):
it's absolutely two sides of the same coin.
I, here's what I will say andclarify, and again, this is
literally my job and we have abook coming out it's due at the
end of August.
That is about all of like, thisis my job to think about, to
write about that.
It's not to say, oh, there'sthis narrative that Rutherford

(12:05):
was pushing, and then there'sanother narrative as if it's
like a both sides, them like,oh, this narrative is
perpetuating this myth.
And then this other narrative isperpetuating that other myth.
One of the terms we use in thefield is dominant narrative.
the dominant narrative is onpage 44.
McRay is talking about the workthat Rutherford and all these

(12:25):
other women did to influencewhat the narrative would be in
textbooks, and it's followinghistorical quote, truths.
Reconstruction was a mistake.
American imperialism provideduplift to non-white people
across the globe.
The rise of the nation was astory of good little d Democrats
and hardworking Anglo-SaxonProtestants and broad
cooperation, not conflict amongall classes of Americans

(12:48):
characterize the nation'sdevelopment.
This should sound familiar toall of us because this dominant
narrative is still

Mandy (12:54):
Still the narrative.

katy (12:55):
in schools at like, so much of

Mandy (12:57):
Mm-hmm.

katy (12:58):
all the textbook research people were doing in like the
thirties.

Mandy (13:01):
Mm-hmm.

katy (13:01):
different.
I will tell you that right now.
And also Howton Mifflin can fuckoff forever.
Page 49.

Mandy (13:08):
Yeah.

katy (13:08):
to that.

Mandy (13:09):
Mm-hmm.

katy (13:09):
implicit in this complicit but the counter narratives to
dominant narratives.
It's really important to stressthis.
They're not equally problematicjust promoting a different
ideology.
They're literally

Mandy (13:22):
Right, right.

katy (13:24):
That they are

Mandy (13:25):
Yep.
Mm-hmm.

katy (13:26):
They are more accurate.
evidence-based, and they'reanchored in beliefs about
dignity and worth.

Mandy (13:38):
Yeah.
And they're more inclusive

katy (13:40):
they're,

Mandy (13:40):
as well.

katy (13:41):
like they reject the false premise of dominant narratives
that there is a hierarchy orthat these

Mandy (13:49):
Mm-hmm.

katy (13:49):
are natural and real.

Mandy (13:52):
Mm-hmm.

katy (13:52):
just that the dominant narratives is one thing and
counter narratives say anotherthing.
It's that dominant narrativesare.
At best, partially true atworst, like very deliberate
skewing that includes activeerasure and marginalization in
order to

Mandy (14:08):
Mm-hmm.

katy (14:09):
quo of white supremacy, patriarchy, heterosexism, et
cetera.

Mandy (14:15):
Yeah.

katy (14:15):
it's doing.
Counter narratives are trying

Mandy (14:17):
Yeah.

katy (14:17):
So I just cannot stress that enough that it's not like,
oh, the Fox likes to promote theright, and M-S-N-B-C likes to
promote the left.
It's not that, right?
It's saying this narrative

Mandy (14:30):
No, and I hate that.
Yeah.
I hate it when people say like,well, the extremes on both sides
are bad.
You cannot say that in mypresence anymore.
I used to like not respond tothat as much or not have, I
mean, as organized response tothat maybe.
But I fight back against thatstatement.

(14:50):
Every time I hear it now I'mlike, no, it's not the same.
We are not looking at like twosides of a coin or whatever kind
of bullshit you wanna try topush.
One of these sides is right andone is evil and detrimental and
not inclusive.
And damages.

(15:12):
Yeah.
it's not accurate.
And so.
That's not true, that theextremes on both sides are the
same.
They are not.
That's just like saying extremegood and extreme evil are the
same.
That's just bullshit.
Like not to say, as we know,that one side doesn't also have
bad parts.

(15:33):
That one side, you know, like,I'm not saying

katy (15:35):
talking

Mandy (15:36):
Republicans are all good and Democrats we're not talking
about parties.

katy (15:39):
lift up off of partisan politics to understand what this

Mandy (15:43):
Yep.

katy (15:44):
I could conceive of an, in an indoctrinate education that
is like, the thing is, it'slike, have to imagine it because
no one is actually arguing forthat.

Mandy (15:56):
Mm-hmm.

katy (15:57):
not a thing.
Like what people are arguing foris like a multicultural,
expansive, accurate, inclusive,humanizing pedagogy.
That's what people are

Mandy (16:07):
Yep.

katy (16:07):
for.
Right?
And you have to like

Mandy (16:09):
Yep.

katy (16:09):
or find the world's most like fringe weirdo who no one is
taking seriously to try to havesome counter to what is like a
very well established,well-funded effort on the other
side to promote hateful,bigoted, skewed hot garbage, and
then package it as goodcurriculum or good education,

(16:31):
which is

Mandy (16:31):
Yep.

katy (16:32):
Hey, I'm looking at you Mildred.

Mandy (16:33):
Mm-hmm.

katy (16:34):
legacy.
And she was super, supereffective at it and,

Mandy (16:39):
Yeah.

katy (16:39):
her structural advantage and wealth and, and everything
to, to get it.
I mean, they talk about, likepart of me was like, oh yeah I
can take notes on this and likeuse it for other purposes, like
the summer.
That was something that theykept telling, like her groups,
her organizations would say,don't forget the summer.

(17:00):
That's when we should besponsoring teacher workshops to
teach them what we want them toteach students.
And we should be running summerschools for kids so that we can.
Even further indoctrinate themin the summer, just in case
they're getting anything duringthe school year that isn't what
we want.
And then we're going to havetextbook committees that are
gonna review textbooks and putout these like pamphlets and

(17:23):
rubrics for how things should bechosen.
And then we're gonna get peopleon the official textbook
selection committees so thatthey're implementing those.
We are going to have essaycontests where students have

Mandy (17:34):
Yeah.

katy (17:34):
for,

Mandy (17:35):
gosh.
I have something I have to tellyou about the essay.
Contest.
You're gonna die.

katy (17:39):
to

Mandy (17:40):
this is a, it's a diversion.
Yes.
Mildred.
And then this.
Okay, so I'll finish Mildredreally quick.
So she was, she went to the LucyCobb Institute.
She taught, and then she cameback to the Lucy Cobb Institute
and was the principal of it formuch of her life.
And then, she did everythingthat we're gonna talk about from
this.
She was this, and we talkedabout this when we talked about

(18:03):
the United Daughters of theConfederacy and briefly went
over this whole history.
So she was the president of theGeorgia Division of United
Daughters of Confederacy, andthen she became the historian
general of the NationalOrganization of the UDC

katy (18:18):
remember,

Mandy (18:19):
1911 to 1916.

katy (18:22):
Sorry to interrupt you.
Do you know how I remember that?

Mandy (18:24):
Yeah.

katy (18:24):
her before in relation to Dixie's Daughters.
A book that I also really lovedand appreciated was that she
wore Victorian dress and Iremember us laughing so hard
about what a weirdo to like, notonly promote all of this
history, but then literallyrecreate it in your outfits.

Mandy (18:42):
cosplay it in her entire life.
So weird.
So she also worked againstwomen's suffrage.
Surprise, surprise.
She was an anti suffragist.
She believed in the wholeseparate sphere argument, and
that women had these traditionalroles.
But again, she was a hypocritebecause she did not stay in that

(19:05):
women's sphere.
She was very political.
She was never married.
She went around publiclyspeaking and promoting all of
this work that women would do ina political sphere, but then
worked against suffrage.
But there's one shining light inthis history that I found at the
very end, which I chuckled at,and I don't care if people think

(19:27):
that this is not right of me tolaugh at.
So in 1927, while recoveringfrom a serious illness, her
house burned down, destroyingmany of her personal papers and
belongings, along with hercollection of Confederate
memorabilia.
She passed away the next year.
Bye, bitch.
That's what I have to say aboutthat.

katy (19:47):
will admit, I wrote good riddance when the text was like,
she died in 19.
I was like, yep.

Mandy (19:51):
I mean, karma.

katy (19:53):
that our house burned down and I hope no

Mandy (19:56):
yeah.

katy (19:56):
was

Mandy (19:57):
And Oliver Confederate memorabilia.

katy (19:59):
to the ground.

Mandy (19:59):
Yeah.

katy (20:00):
so interesting that she did not have her own children.
You know, this season we'rereally focusing on motherhood as
part of white supremacy and youknow, it's really clear to me as
we're reading this book, andeven in the other conversations
that we've been having, just theone-to-one correlation between
raising your own kids andraising everybody else's kids

(20:23):
and the

Mandy (20:24):
Mm-hmm.

katy (20:24):
raising children and then.
That the time period that we'retalking about here, like the
1920s, thirties, forties, likethe rise of the welfare state
and its connection toprogressive

Mandy (20:35):
Mm-hmm.

katy (20:36):
like the New Deal, like the expansion of that as a way
for white women to mother,everyone's children.
And

Mandy (20:45):
Yep.

katy (20:45):
gonna get

Mandy (20:45):
Yep.

katy (20:46):
genocidal boarding schools, like we're gonna get
into all sorts of ways that thismanifested.
And right now we're reallyfocused on like women
influencing the curriculum ofpublic schools.
But that is just one componentof it.
That for these women who didn'thave their own kids, which
honestly makes more sensebecause I will say like

Mandy (21:05):
The time

katy (21:05):
any

Mandy (21:06):
to go and do this.

katy (21:07):
it's I, in a million years I would never, ever not be a
mom.
Like that's the, I like I, it,it sounds cheesy and
performative to be like thislittle support job to me, but it
like that is the highlight of mylife is being able to be a
mother.
But.
who says that that is not likean impediment to being able to

(21:28):
do other things is lying.
So like

Mandy (21:32):
Yeah.

katy (21:32):
like

Mandy (21:32):
Yep.

katy (21:33):
like I'm gonna start just shaking my fist at her.
I was just raising them up, butshe's down low, so like I'll
raise'em to the ground.
Just that she, there's all theseadvantages that like, she

Mandy (21:45):
Mm-hmm.

katy (21:46):
super rich and didn't have kids.
So it's like, well, okay, youalready have a head start then.
Because I'm not willing tosacrifice time with my kids or
me making sure that they're okayfor work and that might not be
the right, I don't know.
Like I, I'm sure there are superactivist moms out there who
figure out another way to dothat.
But it is ironic that womencommitted to these super

(22:13):
conservative.
Understandings of motherhood canbe so effective when they don't
have their own kids at promotingthat

Mandy (22:20):
Mm-hmm.

katy (22:20):
because you

Mandy (22:21):
Mm-hmm.

katy (22:22):
and

Mandy (22:22):
Yep.

katy (22:23):
and bandwidth

Mandy (22:26):
Absolutely.
Now that makes me wonder aboutall of the like Republican women
in Congress and their childrenand their mothering styles.
I'm gonna have to do some morepetty detective work.
Nancy Mace.
I'm coming.
Anyway.

katy (22:42):
Katie?
What's her name from Georgia,the senator who did the

Mandy (22:45):
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

katy (22:46):
response to the state of the

Mandy (22:48):
Response to the state of the Yes.
She has kids.
We know that.
Anyway.
Okay.
So let me tell you, I mean, wecan get into this later too, but
the essay contest that we'regonna talk about, which were
part of, I won a Daughters ofthe American Revolution essay
contest in elementary school.

katy (23:05):
stop, stop.
What?

Mandy (23:09):
I tragically have zero memory of it and no idea what I
wrote.
And this was in like theeighties.
I mean, how, I don't know thatit was saved or I've looked
online.
I can find no archives of it.
My mom doesn't remember what itwas about, but I know that I did
because I have the$50 bondcertificate from the Daughters

(23:35):
of the American Revolution forwinning the essay contest in
West Des Moines, Iowa.

katy (23:42):
write

Mandy (23:42):
I know,

katy (23:43):
And honestly, like the DAR is not like we've got issues
with the DAR too, like theDaughters of the Confederacy.

Mandy (23:51):
Yeah.

katy (23:52):
even more aghast if you had won that contest.

Mandy (23:55):
Oh gosh, no, I can't.
I can't Ima my mom.
I mean we, we discussed, myparents are liberal.
I can't, my mother would nothave let me write a essay
contest that was at all likepro-con, conservative, southern.
So it must have in that timebeen couched in some sort of a
different light where it didn'tseem like it was pro

katy (24:17):
like not

Mandy (24:18):
lost cause kind of thing.
Not on the surface exactly, butI would pay if there was anyone
who knew where that was, I wouldlove to know.

katy (24:29):
you have like a box of old stuff from when you were young?

Mandy (24:33):
My parents do, but I don't think any of that has ever
been in it.
But I don't know.

katy (24:40):
if there was like a mention in the newspaper, like
local girl

Mandy (24:44):
know.

katy (24:44):
national contact.
Okay.
I'm in a petty detective.
what do you think about that?

Mandy (24:48):
I know.
Yeah.
Find it.
Do it.
Because I couldn't, I did searchthe Des Moines Register, like
Microfish archives thing whereit's digitalized and all I found
was like a mention of when I wasgoing to Grinnell and like this,
a scholarship I received forthat, that was in

katy (25:05):
dig

Mandy (25:06):
newspaper, but not as far back.

katy (25:08):
What,

Mandy (25:09):
Yeah.

katy (25:09):
have this, the bond certificate, do you still have
that bond and

Mandy (25:12):
Mm-hmm.

katy (25:12):
cash it out and use it for

Mandy (25:14):
Yes.

katy (25:15):
Like what a

Mandy (25:16):
I should like donate it to some like,

katy (25:20):
in

Mandy (25:20):
yeah.
No, I do have it

katy (25:21):
for what you can donate to, we'll circle back to that at

Mandy (25:23):
Okay.

katy (25:24):
I, yeah, I, like I said, I am like shaking and have the
sweats because I'm so motivatedto think about just to ramp up
efforts to make sure that we'recountering things.
Because this resurgence of.
All of the work that Rutherfordand all of her friends were up

(25:46):
to the, it is just, it.
It's like Absolutely.
Come back.
It, it feels like, what are the,what's that monster lady with
the hair, with the snake hair?
Medusa,

Mandy (25:59):
Medusa.
Mm-hmm.

katy (26:00):
You can see these moments where like the snakes get cut
off and then it's like, oh, nowit's grown Eight more heads that
are attacking you.

Mandy (26:07):
Mm-hmm.

katy (26:08):
like we grew up in an era where the hacking was happening,
and now we're raising kids in anera where the snake heads have
multiplied.

Mandy (26:18):
A million percent.
So I thought it was interestingthat this opened with Rutherford
and her belief that whitesouthern apathy, like was talked
about in the last chapter, wasgiving inroads to all of these
Yankee quote unquote idealsinfiltrating their way into

(26:43):
southern schools.
And she was irritated that thesepeople had neglected the
southern history.

katy (26:50):
Right.

Mandy (26:51):
said they like lacked grit.
they didn't understand thathistory mattered and that they
needed to be involved in this.
And so she started out bywriting these pamphlets about
what was acceptable whichliterally gave white women like
a to-do list for how to remedythis problem of this Yankee

(27:15):
history being taught in theschools.
And she had all the things thatyou kind of first touched on
earlier, so.
Sponsoring summer schools forpublic school teachers, creating
textbook collection committeesto monitor appointees to local
school boards, trustees, publicschool teachers,
superintendents.
And finally it says she calledfor a loyalty test for school

(27:39):
officials to see if they knewthe South's true history, which
these loyalty tests like soterrifying.
Also, apparently thingshappening now.

katy (27:51):
is it, and

Mandy (27:52):
Yeah.

katy (27:53):
with a superintendent who said she is refusing to sign
basically a loyalty test tocommit to not doing anything
with DEI.
And this is not in

Mandy (28:03):
Mm-hmm.

katy (28:03):
much

Mandy (28:04):
Yeah.

katy (28:04):
Absolutely.

Mandy (28:07):
Yeah.

katy (28:08):
Oh

Mandy (28:08):
So, and somehow these became adopted very widely.
I think at one point it saidthere was like a$2 and 50 cent
year a year subscription fee forpeople who could pay for her
publications, and then she usedthe money from those fees to pay
for these pamphlets and thendistribute them throughout

(28:32):
Georgia,

katy (28:32):
Well, and some of these are wild, like the, it was a
primer.
Do you say primer or primer?
I say primer, but maybe

Mandy (28:43):
I'd say primer, but I think you could say it either
way.

katy (28:46):
intro, let's say in Mississippi, it was called the
KKK, written by Laura Rose, whosucceeded Rutherford.
as the daughters of theConfederacy historian General,
and she's a real peach.

Mandy (28:59):
Mm-hmm.

katy (28:59):
in this little pamphlet booklet, she argues that the
first clan arose as a quote,antidote to the widespread
belief among African Americansthat freedom meant they no
longer to labor.
are right.
That's

Mandy (29:15):
Mm-hmm.

katy (29:16):
people didn't wanna be enslaved because they don't
wanna work, right?
Mm-hmm.

Mandy (29:20):
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.

katy (29:21):
that's the reason.
And then children reading thebook would learn that the
original Klan had been anecessary counterpart to the
African American led unionleaks, which Rose argued had
engendered racial strife andoppressed southern whites.
fact, the Union Leagues werepolitical organizations of
African Americans and whiteunionists in the postwar south
who advocated for the right tovote voter registration support

(29:43):
for the national government.
But students would not learnthat from Rose's book.
Instead, this is all fromMcCray's book I'm reading from
page 50.
They would read that the KKKcountered the impulse among
black men to take white wives.
The text reminded schoolchildrenthat the best citizens of our
country joined the KKK becausethey were motivated by love and

(30:03):
protection of the home.
Violence was their last resort.
And Rose also noted that crimescommitted by quote, mean white
men were often falselyattributed to the K, k, K.
She extolled the

Mandy (30:15):
Which I wrote in the margins.
I was like, oh.
It was like the modern dayAntifa did it.
Argument like, none of thisviolence is us.
It's infiltrators who areblaming it on these men.

katy (30:28):
Or like somehow bad apples.
Like again, just it makes mybrain bleed.
It really does.
Like it is just infuriating.
So that Pam, the book Lit pri orwhatever, we're like, that is
just an example, but there'sjust so much She also had a
newsletter called MissRutherford's scrapbook, valuable

(30:49):
information about the South, andit was like a kind of southern
history magazine.
But according to her, you know,like her dominant narrative
version of things she had a listof don'ts of history where she
taught her readers to avoidsaying the Civil War and instead
refer to it as the war betweenthe

Mandy (31:08):
Mm-hmm.

katy (31:09):
and to say, you know, the south was right, not that you
believe it to be right.

Mandy (31:15):
Right.

katy (31:15):
I just finished work on this chapter where we were
talking about the importance oflanguage and one of the things
that we are advocating for isnot using passive voice because
that hides the agents of action.
So even if you're talking abouthistories of white supremacy,
let's say, you can stillperpetuate it because you're
hiding the agents of action.

(31:37):
So you could say something likedogs attacked that children were
attacked by dogs in theBirmingham Children's March.
Right.
So you're like teaching aboutthe Birmingham Children's March.
You're even acknowledging thatthe kids were attacked by dogs.
But that's a very different wayto say it than police Chief Bull
Connor ordered dogs to

Mandy (31:56):
Released Dogs on children.
Yes, exactly.

katy (32:00):
Right.

Mandy (32:00):
Yeah.

katy (32:01):
we use euphemisms and the language.
Like, I literally wrote achapter about language, you
know, like the, it is

Mandy (32:07):
Mm-hmm.

katy (32:08):
like the

Mandy (32:08):
It's like all the,

katy (32:09):
of this.

Mandy (32:11):
the headlines from Gaza that I see, like people do that
same sort of corrective work onall the time where it says like,
oh, Palestinian children killedand, you know, raid on whatever,
and it's like, no.

katy (32:24):
It just

Mandy (32:25):
Yeah, yeah.
It's like, right.
Exactly.
There was part that I said like,I mean, it's, we do agree with
Rutherford, I would say on herbelief that public.
Schooling and education helps toshape politics and culture.
I mean, this is what we have incommon, that these things are

(32:48):
very important.
And she, it says in the book, byencouraging white women to
redouble their oversight ofpublic education, she worked to
combat white apathy aboutsegregation.
Rutherford reminded whitesouthern women that they were,
the daily workers needed toguarantee that white children
learned the lessons ofsegregated citizenship, and they
grew up to be white supremacy.

(33:09):
Future activists, their focushad to be public schools.
And this is like a battle thatjust is ongoing except for, at
this point, I think becausefederal oversight did come in
for public schools.
And this is why

katy (33:27):
The

Mandy (33:28):
conservatives hate the Department of

katy (33:31):
Mm-hmm.

Mandy (33:32):
hence why they hate the Department of Education.
Now I feel like that's where thepush to the school voucher thing
comes in to then defer publiceducation dollars to private
schools where there is notfederal oversight of what is
taught, so then they can go back

katy (33:54):
Yep.

Mandy (33:54):
to teaching these sorts of things.

katy (33:56):
but it like, maybe there's a sliver of hope in this because
they will.
There isn't like a push then forlocal control, but

Mandy (34:05):
Mm-hmm.

katy (34:06):
room in local control for people opposed to these things
to try to do something.
So it's not a perfect solution,you know, but it is

Mandy (34:14):
Mm-hmm.

katy (34:15):
There was one part here where she talks about how white
women, she being mray, thehistorian writing

Mandy (34:22):
Mm-hmm.

katy (34:23):
book writes about how women feared that the
centralization of textbookselection might open up a small
space for black women and blackeducators to influence state
policy.
And I wrote in the barges, ohno, not a small space,

Mandy (34:38):
Yeah.

katy (34:39):
but I think there is always like, for better or
worse, no victory is complete.
So whether like, yes, they wereable to set up these like
adoption committees and to getschool board staff more power,
et cetera, but then that meansthat there's always the chance
for local people to push back.
And I have this current examplethat my friend and co-author

(35:02):
sent me this morning the news.
But one thing I just wanted topoint out with this too is
another theme that we just keepcircling back around our when
people are arguing for localcontrol or like quote states
rights.
And it seems like

Mandy (35:16):
Mm-hmm.

katy (35:17):
argument, and I know it's your favorite argument, the
ironic

Mandy (35:21):
My favorite dog whistle.

katy (35:22):
Like right now though, states' rights actually being a
place to protect trans peopleor, you know, like it's, it can

Mandy (35:28):
Mm-hmm.

katy (35:28):
be used for progressive

Mandy (35:30):
We just haven't done it and we need to like hold onto
that and use it in the same

katy (35:37):
yes.

Mandy (35:37):
sort of way.
I feel like, I mean, I thinkGavin Newsom is like doing this
in California, pushing backagainst, yeah.
Mm-hmm.

katy (35:45):
other argument that I think this book is pointing to,
and we've talked about a lot inthe past, is like for the
children, you know, like toprotect the children.
and honestly, right now in thenews, if you're listening to
this, when we post it, there'san explosion almost like a, a
rupture in the MAGA world aboutJeffrey Epstein files.

(36:05):
And for years and years andyears and Q anon, like all of
these forces that have been forthe rise of Trump have been
really, really fired up aboutpedophilia and sex trafficking
of minors like that is just thiscore

Mandy (36:23):
Mm-hmm.

katy (36:24):
it's like, for the children, we're gonna protect
the children.
Of course, like I call bullshiton that argument, not.

Mandy (36:30):
Mm-hmm.

katy (36:31):
also, I'm not, that's not me saying I'm pro sex
trafficking or pro pedophilia,obviously.
It's just saying like, it's hardto believe that you actually
genuinely care about the welfareof children when you are doing
all these things that areharming kids who just aren't
part of your community.
So I don't believe you.

(36:51):
I think you believe it, and Ithink you are conveniently
benefiting from it in all theseways.
But the way that argument quotefor the children is so often
cover for white supremacy,Christianity, et cetera.
It's just cover for a lot ofreally awful things.
In fact, there's another parthere where about just the

(37:11):
expansion of bureaucracy insocial welfare and, you know,
social work and education, etcetera.
And there was this other woman,Margaret Robinson who McRay
calls.
Part of the anti radicalcommunity and it's like these
ultra conservative groups.
And she had organized thecitizens committee to protect
our homes and children, soughtthe support of the Catholic

(37:34):
church and created a grassrootsgroundswell opposing the
amendment.
And in my notes, I wrote, ohsure.
The Catholic church well knownfor protecting children.
Ha.
Period.
Ha period.
Ha, period.

Mandy (37:45):
Mm-hmm.

katy (37:46):
It's

Mandy (37:46):
And this was the Child Labor Act that she was against.

katy (37:49):
So,

Mandy (37:50):
she, so it was trying to put restrictions on child labor
and the conservative argumentbeing, this is a parent's right.
To be in control of this, andthe federal government can't
tell us what to do with ourkids, even if it's trying to
protect them.

katy (38:04):
now, we're we, Iowa has

Mandy (38:06):
Yeah.

katy (38:07):
on child labor laws like that is

Mandy (38:09):
Mm-hmm.

katy (38:09):
very current, but it just seems like this is where you
have to call bullshit on thesearguments that if you are
partnering with the Catholicchurch that is involved, and I
say this as someone who grew upin the Catholic church, like
deeply, systematically,structurally involved in the
coverup and protection of peoplewho are actively abusing in all

(38:32):
kinds of ways, including sexualabuse children.
Like, I don't believe you.

Mandy (38:36):
yeah.
Well, and I love all these,speaking of like the Epstein
thing, touching on that againbriefly, like all of these
podcast bros that helped getTrump elected, who are now
furious about like the fact thatthey're not gonna release any of
the Epstein information.
They can't,'cause it doesn'tquote unquote exist.

katy (38:53):
Right.

Mandy (38:54):
But like I watched this one clip of Andrew Schultz, who
was one of the podcast peopletalking about it, where he was
saying in a facetious way, like,well, I guess we're the idiots
for believing that he was gonnado it.
And I'm like, yeah, fucker.
You are the idiots.
All of us knew that this wasn'tgonna happen.
That's his best friend, and hewas with him all the time.

(39:18):
And we know he's a pedophile, soof course he's not gonna release
it.
What are you talking about?
I, I can't, I can't.
Anyway.

katy (39:27):
I will

Mandy (39:28):
Course.

katy (39:28):
out my own profession of teacher education as being
implemented in this as well.
And some of the teacher edprograms even started because of
the work of these women

Mandy (39:41):
Mm-hmm.

katy (39:41):
sure they would control who was becoming teachers and
what it was that they

Mandy (39:45):
Mm-hmm.

katy (39:46):
students.

Mandy (39:46):
Well, it talks about the expansion of, because what's
interesting to think about isbefore this time, public schools
were not a thing.

katy (39:55):
Right,

Mandy (39:55):
Like there weren't

katy (39:56):
right.

Mandy (39:57):
funded, federally funded.
It was just little schoolhousesthat communities did this.
And so when you start to get thelegal framework to make public
education an actually structuredthing, they talked about how
there weren't enough teachers tofill those roles.
And so they were using peoplethat only had maybe a year more

(40:17):
education than the students thatthey were teaching.
And they did see this gap intheir ability to educate these
kids, which was truly there.
But they jumped on that to belike, okay, this is what we can
do.
Because we don't have a greatteacher force, we can now
influence what those forces are.

(40:39):
And that led to like the summerinstitutes where they could go
and they could learn and gainthe knowledge to be teachers.
But then they were telling them,this is what you're gonna teach.
And an uneducated workforce justgoes along with that.
It's just training

katy (40:55):
And then,

Mandy (40:55):
and then they propagate it.

katy (40:57):
create these textbooks and you influence what the textbook
companies are doing because you

Mandy (41:01):
Yeah.

katy (41:02):
option committees.
And the textbook companies wantto sell books.
their primary goal is to makemoney.
It is not to

Mandy (41:08):
Mm-hmm.

katy (41:08):
children.

Mandy (41:09):
Yeah.

katy (41:09):
Their end is to make a

Mandy (41:10):
It's not to tell the truth.

katy (41:12):
sell

Mandy (41:12):
how many books can we sell?

katy (41:14):
so you

Mandy (41:15):
if these states adopt, like if Texas, this massive
state with all of these.
People in schools and children,if they adopt this textbook,
then this is the one we'republishing and we're gonna sell
it in California andMassachusetts and everywhere
else because that's what's gonnamake the money.

katy (41:30):
So here we have and now I'm on page 57, but this is when
these studies start coming outin the thirties and forties of
What is in or not in thetextbooks because there's all
these efforts to create lists.
Like these are the bannedtextbooks or these are the,
recommended textbooks and theyall align with Rutherford's
rubric for What constitutes agood history textbook or civics

(41:52):
textbook and what doesn't.
And so there are these studiesthat come out to show it.
And this one just infuriated me.
Again, my blood pressure waslike at an all time high,
especially because this just hitso close to home about the work
that I do right now that is soparallel this This was a 1938
study, found that a student whomastered all the textbooks

(42:13):
provided from elementary throughsecondary school could, in all
likelihood never meet in his orher reading.
One black person who hadcontributed in a significant way
to the nation's development,careful decide step, any
suggestion that they advocatedracial equality.
The Mississippi EducationalAssociation had solicited the
help of white students atMillsaps College and the state's
teacher college to conduct anobjective study of what the

(42:35):
state approved textbooks taughtabout the Negro and what effects
this whitewash history mighthave on white students.
Hmm, I wonder, and then

Mandy (42:42):
Mm-hmm.

katy (42:43):
this study began after a white high school boy proudly
recounted to his teacher how hehad punched a black girl who had
not stepped off the sidewalk.
For him, his failure to act witheither a recognition of basic
human rights or even whitepaternalism startled the teacher
who wondered if his schoolingmight have contributed to this
poor behavior.
in the margins.

(43:04):
I wrote, yes, think the fuck.

Mandy (43:07):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.

katy (43:08):
what it reminded me of was a group that I was part of
facilitating at our alma mater.
And this was several years ago.
And maybe I've told you aboutthis before, so if I have, you
know, whatever, but it's veryrelevant, so I still want

Mandy (43:26):
Mm-hmm.

katy (43:26):
it.

Mandy (43:27):
Yep.

katy (43:27):
an incident at the school where a black girl and a white
girl got into a physical fightin the lunchroom and.
The administration.
I had just moved back to Iowaand they knew I was from this
high school.
They knew this was my area ofexpertise.
And so some of our formerteachers who were still there
said, you know, let's have likeand her colleagues come try to

(43:48):
help us figure this out.
And one of their questions was,you know, what's going on here?
And it's not rocket science,racism, like, hello.
And it's embedded everywhere.
So yes, that's obviously part ofit.
And of course there are layersand layers to the story.
But in the, what I wanted topoint out relative to that
passage that it made me think ofwas I was as a white person as

(44:10):
part of this research team incharge of facilitating the white
student focus group.
And I asked the students, wherein the curriculum have you
learned about racism?
And there was absolute crickets.
No student had anything to say.
And then finally this kid spokeup and he was.
accepted to an Ivy Leagueschool, had an above 4.0 GPA.

(44:34):
So a quote, successful kid, andI'm gonna read to you what he

Mandy (44:38):
Mm

katy (44:39):
then I want your reaction here is what

Mandy (44:41):
mm.

katy (44:43):
The Industrial Revolution or the Revolutionary War was
primarily white people.
You can't really incorporateblack people into that time
period just because that's nothow it was.
So you can't really change thecurriculum because that would be
like changing history.
You have to keep history thesame.
I think the curriculum is fine.

Mandy (45:01):
Mm-hmm.
I mean, it just points to thesuccess of the erasure, of the
contribution of black people tothis country, which was one of
the points

katy (45:16):
I mean,

Mandy (45:17):
of this entire,

katy (45:18):
is Rutherford cheering from the grave, right?
That this kid

Mandy (45:22):
yeah.

katy (45:22):
got accepted to a fancy schmancy school.
Is getting all a pluseseverywhere he goes, this is what
he thinks is true.

Mandy (45:33):
Mm-hmm.

katy (45:33):
gross.
There's so many layers to this.
Like I shared this quote inworkshops and we unpack like an
onion, all the layers of what'swrong with this one utterance
from this kid.
And it's

Mandy (45:44):
Mm-hmm.

katy (45:45):
to say like, what a shit kid.
It's like this, he is a productof his education.

Mandy (45:51):
Yep.

katy (45:51):
this, I'm not necessarily indicting him, although at some
point, like hella wake, youknow, he's got some
accountability.
But this is an

Mandy (45:59):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.

katy (46:01):
attending the quote, best high school in the quote, best
district in the state.
this is an indictment of that,that the student who could be an
honors student would believethis to be true when there are
so many flaws in how he'sthinking about it.
Like, keep in mind I asked thequestion, have you learned about
racism?
his answer was about blackpeople like it.

Mandy (46:25):
Mm-hmm.

katy (46:26):
fundamental misunderstanding of my question,
not to mention everything hetalks about that is just like
such nonsense, like just soinaccurate

Mandy (46:36):
Mm-hmm.

katy (46:37):
it was shocking to hear, like this

Mandy (46:40):
Mm-hmm.

katy (46:40):
with me for years with just how disturbing it is.
But I couldn't help but thinkabout it in this chapter like
this is exactly, and this is inIowa, a northern state, is

Mandy (46:51):
Mm-hmm.

katy (46:51):
what McCray is talking about.
not only were they supersuccessful in their work, in
schools in the south, butschools across the nation that
they influenced in

Mandy (47:04):
Yeah.
And then there are so manylayers.
That's the thing that I think Iwalked away thinking at the
conclusion of the chapter.
I was like, oh, I walked intothis just thinking of the
promotion of the quote, unquote,lost cause and the spelling of

(47:26):
this narrative of history.
And I totally have to admit thatI did not consider the erasure
of black history and blackindividuals, and the impact that
that also has.
I mean, the loss of how much wascontributed.

(47:50):
The fact that that's notreflected both to white students
and black students.
And it reminded me, you're gonnahave to be, see if your memory
can be better than mine, of whowe talked to about literature as
being windows and mirrors.

katy (48:06):
that was probably Leah Slick Driscoll who

Mandy (48:09):
Yes.

katy (48:10):
Debbie Reese.
It was one of the two interviewsthat we just used to launch
this.
Both educators both indigenouswomen who both talk about it.

Mandy (48:17):
Yeah.

katy (48:18):
Debbie actually, because she, one of her contributions to
the field is talking also aboutcurtains.
So there's windows and

Mandy (48:24):
Mm-hmm.

katy (48:25):
meaning you need to understand, know, the world
that's different than you.
You also need to understand yourown life and community and
identity and family.
So you need to have mirrors,like things that

Mandy (48:37):
Mm-hmm.

katy (48:37):
you know, there's also information that might not be
for outsiders, and that's okaytoo.

Mandy (48:41):
Yeah.

katy (48:41):
protected behind a curtain.

Mandy (48:43):
Yeah, exactly.
I think that is what we weretalking about and it just, the,
honestly, just sadness of that,that one, that mirror is not
there in education for blackchildren to see that during
reformation, there were all ofthese amazing inroads in

(49:05):
politics and business in likelocal life that black people
contributed to, and then that'salso not there as a window for
white children to see thatcontribution either.
It's such a loss to take thatpart of history out, not only to
tell this bullshit part ofhistory, but to not include it

(49:28):
so that people don't see thatthis is part of our history.
They just don't even believe it.
Like that kid said, you can'trewrite history

katy (49:38):
it

Mandy (49:38):
like.

katy (49:38):
he under,

Mandy (49:39):
Yeah.

katy (49:40):
cannot conceptualize the Industrial Revolution or the
American Revolution.
Like, well, black people weren'tpart of that.
That is just such an insane,like, that's so wildly
inaccurate.
I don't even know where tobegin.

Mandy (49:50):
Mm-hmm.

katy (49:50):
and then yes, here's a nuance that I make sure we're
taking into account too, becauseit's not just contribution.
So Lager King is a scholareducator, just brilliant person
who runs the Center for teachingblack history that's now out of
SUNY Buffalo.

(50:11):
And he is known for his workcreating, a black historical
consciousness framework forthinking about how to teach
history, how to teach socialstudies.
And there's this great article,we'll link to it in the show
notes.
That is just, I think, a reallyimportant piece of what we're
talking about when we're talkingabout erasure and we're talking

(50:31):
about white women's efforts tocontrol the narrative of what
kids learn in school.
And we should point out thatthose garbage textbooks and all
those resources then get passedon to segregated schools.
And so those are the materialsthat black students have access
to.
So it's even worse, like there'sjust

Mandy (50:47):
Mm-hmm.

katy (50:49):
talks about is this.
He says, while the sentimentblack history is American
history is factual, we cannottell America's story.
Without the story of blackAmerica in practice, the axiom
can be problematic while wellintended, the saying is a
non-controversial, palatable andwhitewashed discourse that
maintains the status quo andinterferes with truly improving
black history education.

(51:10):
It's a feel-good phrase becauseit celebrates and identifies the
country's diversity and supposedinclusive mission as a
democratic nation.
Most problematic is that thephrase insinuates a sort of
shared historical legacy betweenwhite and black people, which is
not entirely accurate.
In general, I have arguedelsewhere that what is
historically significant towhite people may not be
historically significant toblack people.

(51:32):
So it's not just the erasurethat's a problem that is a
massive problem.
also who has the power to setour historical gates, like who
has the

Mandy (51:44):
Mm-hmm.

katy (51:44):
determine.

Mandy (51:47):
What's important?

katy (51:48):
to learn about, right?
Not to just set the terms andthen say like, well, how were
black people connected to thisthing?

Mandy (51:54):
Mm-hmm.

katy (51:55):
that we even care about when we look back at the past?
And that it might not be thesame.
And we're talking here aboutspecifically black history, but
you could do this with all thedifferent kinds of frameworks
like indigenous history, queerhistory, like it's, it's like
who gets So the dominantnarrative goes so deep that it's
not like it's worth working onerasure.

(52:16):
That's absolutely worth itbecause we have like a massive
uphill battle.
Just that, but it even, it goeseven deeper than that, I guess
is my point.

Mandy (52:24):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, and I think it's alsoworth noting that there were
groups during this time thatwere trying.
To work against this.
So she mentions in this chaptera couple of different
progressive groups like theInternational Council of Women
of Darker Races, the Women'sCommittee of the Commission on

(52:47):
Interracial Cooperation, theWomen's International League for
Peace and Freedom.
and they argued too that thehistorical interpretations in
textbooks did play a big role inthe making of American citizens,
but they sought the moreinclusive personal narratives to
be included.

(53:07):
But she says they were no matchfor the lobbying of the more
anti radical organizations andthe leftist groups found
themselves frozen out of thetextbook market.
And I wrote in the margins likesame today there it just seems
like we can't get past thispower.

(53:31):
Of this underlying narrative.
And I, that's where I struggleto say like, how, how is this
gonna happen?
How are we gonna be able to getpast this?
Because this was a hundred yearsago that this was happening and
it's still influencingeverything today.

(53:52):
So I don't know if you probablyhave more ideas than I do since
this is what you do,

katy (53:58):
But

Mandy (53:59):
this

katy (53:59):
I,

Mandy (53:59):
is what you work on, but mm-hmm.

katy (54:03):
about like our publishing company and trying to get our
books in the hands of youngpeople and trying to find or
generate funding to run programsand to create resources.
Like that's a place for your$50bond to go as just one example.
And there are national effortsfor that.
You know, this an educationproject is an incredible
organization to support.

(54:24):
Please, please look into that.
And I think we should actuallyhave their executive director on
for an interview because thework that they're doing is
really incredible and soimportant and absolutely worth.
It's a place that I send some ofmy giving, you know, to Zen
Education Project.
Rethinking Schools is anotherexample to support.
They have a great magazine youcan subscribe to.

(54:44):
There are definitelyorganizations, people,
educators, trying to do things.
But it is.
It is wild.
It is the Medusa for sure.
And yet, like this news articlethat my friend sent this morning
that I want to share with you aswe wind our episode down here is
the, the, like I said, how eventhe most nefarious tactics

(55:06):
always have like a little space,just like anything we try to do
is not like a, like awaterproof, watertight
protection.
You know, there's always a wayfor things to seep in for
better, for worse.
So this comes from Chalkbeat.
We'll link to this in the shownotes as well, by Nora Remy.
And it's religious opt-outscould complicate new Bible

(55:28):
infused state curriculum inTexas.
Are you ready for this?

Mandy (55:32):
Mm-hmm.

katy (55:32):
Pam little describes herself as Christian and
conservative.
The proud fifth generation Texanis no fan of diversity, equity,
and inclusion.
But when the Texas State Boardof Education approved a new
curriculum last November thatdraws heavily on biblical
material for elementary languagearts and reading instruction,
little voted against it.
She supports the teaching ofbiblical values in school and

(55:53):
her objections to Blue BonnetLearning.
This is the curriculum that'sbeing implemented are primarily
pedagogical, but little sayssome of the lessons that include
extended passages directly fromJesus'.
Sermon on the Mount and the Bookof Genesis simply go too far.
This is sort of a no man's landthat we're in.
Little said in an interview.
We've never had instructionalmaterials that have had this

(56:13):
much religious content.
Some Christian conservativesmight not share her concerns,
but Texans from a range ofreligious faiths, including
other Christians, raisedobjections to Blue Bonnet
throughout the adoption process.
A recent Supreme Court decisiongives new standing to parents
who have religious objections toclassroom material and could
complicate attempts by states toinclude more religious content
in public school instruction.

(56:34):
Do you know this case, Mahmudversus Taylor?
It's a six three decision.
The court upheld the right ofparents to opt their kids out of
lessons that have any connectionto lgbtqia plus characters and
themes.
This was in a Maryland schooldistrict on the grounds that it
conflicts with their religiousbeliefs.
Opt out policies like this havetraditionally been championed by

(56:55):
conservative groups, includingsome of the very same groups in
Texas that support Bluebonnetemboldened by the Mahmud versus
Taylor ruling.
Conservative groups areencouraging more parents to
ensure their districts let themopt out their kids from
L-G-B-T-Q inclusive curriculum,but efforts in Republican led
states such as Texas, Oklahoma,and Louisiana to infuse more
religious content in the publicinstruction, including biblical

(57:16):
lessons.
Requirements to display The 10Commandments in classrooms are
spurring a wider range ofparents to express religious
objections.
districts aren't required to useblue Bonnet, but adoption comes
with additional state funds.
So if you adopt this likeBible-based reading instruction,
you get 60 extra dollars perpupil.
Which is super awesome.

(57:37):
the Supreme Court ruling doesn'tfundamentally alter relevant
Texas law.
Since the mid 1990s, state lawthere has allowed families to
exempt their children frominstruction that conflicts with
the family's religious or moralbeliefs.
But parents can't opt their kidsout of entire semester's worth
of learning.
So if they've adopted theirreading instruction, is this
curriculum that infuses biblicalinstruction throughout the

(57:57):
entire, like you can't opt yourkid out of learning to read.
Like,

Mandy (58:02):
Yeah.

katy (58:03):
what does that set up for the district?
So, Texas education officialsand supporters of the curriculum
maintain that Blue BonnetLearning is not a religious
curriculum.
The biblical references aredesigned to help students
understand literature, history,politics, and culture.
They say while they supportparents' rights to opt their
children out, supporters seeBlue Bonnet as fundamentally
different from the L-G-B-T-Qinclusive curriculum because of
course they do, because fuckthem.

(58:24):
say those L-G-B-T-Q themed booksare inherently ideological as if
this other curriculum isn't.

Mandy (58:31):
As if Christianity is not

katy (58:33):
that's

Mandy (58:33):
ideological.

katy (58:34):
Capital T.

Mandy (58:35):
Mm-hmm.

katy (58:35):
to accept ideas that go guides their religion's.
Teaching by contrast, they saylearning about the story of the
Good Samaritan exposes childrento an important cultural
touchstone and teaches universalvirtues of kindness and
tolerance.

Mandy (58:46):
Mm-hmm.

katy (58:47):
Mandy Drogan, an education expert with the Texas Public
Policy Foundation, aconservative think tank.
I, for one, I'm really temptedto try my best Texas accent, but
I won't because that's rude andI'm sure would be insulting.
I, for one, cannot understandwhy any parent living in the
greatest country that's everexisted in the world would not
want their children tounderstand the foundations, the

(59:07):
historical references that areincluded in the Blue Bonnet
curriculum.
So for instance, seek parentsand community members fear that
Blue bonnet will leave childrenfeeling even more isolated than
they do now.
Obviously Sikhs already have avery large amount of bullying
that they face in classrooms dueto a lack of understanding that
students and educators have oftheir identity.
That's from Up Cower, who's theeducation manager of the Sikh
Coalition.

(59:28):
So basically this curriculum hait, it's like when you are
learning to read, everything isinfused.
So a kindergarten reading lessonon just sequencing text, like
that basic skill asks studentsto order the days.
Described in the book of GenesisUhhuh, a fifth grade art lesson

(59:49):
on Leonardo da Vinci's paintingof the Last Supper, has them
reading the book of Matthew,like passages from the book of
Matthew.
School.
Districts across Texas are nowin the process of deciding
whether to adopt materials.
And those that do get this extramoney, still say that there's
not, it's not religiousinstruction.
Another example, there's fifthgrade reading material on Martin
Luther King Jr's letter from aBirmingham jail he references

(01:00:11):
the book of Daniel.
So they have students read.
The book of Daniel what theadvocate is saying, this Mandy
Drogan, is you can't understandthe letter from the Birmingham
jail if you don't have abiblical understanding.
But Pam Little, this is thewoman from the beginning who's,
who is still like a conservativeperson, says Blue bonnet
learning misses the whole pointof his letter.

(01:00:32):
And it bothers me that it justtalks about his faith in
Christianity.
And that's not what his letterwas about.
His letter is telling whiteChristian people to get up and
start to help.
Yes, Pam.
Correct.

Mandy (01:00:43):
Mm-hmm.

katy (01:00:44):
so it it's just wild.
David Brockman, a scholar atRice University in Baker
Institutes religion and publicpolicy program says students
might get the impression thatChristianity is the only
religion worth knowing about.

Mandy (01:00:55):
I wonder why that would be.

katy (01:00:57):
wonder why.
It's just wild.
So it's interesting to see Howthese opt-out policies that
conservatives have argued for,for so long, how that ends up
potentially backfiring.

Mandy (01:01:13):
Yeah.

katy (01:01:13):
school districts also, there is a state law that has
banned all practices deemed torely on DEI.
they're going to have to informparents about their parental
rights and provide parents acopy of their instructional plan
at the beginning of eachsemester so that parents will
like peruse everything.
But of course they say like,this is so complicated because I

(01:01:36):
don't have the time and this ismy field to like comb through
every teacher's lesson ofeverything.
There's also massive languagebarriers.
So are you going to translateevery single lesson, so that all
parents have equal access tobeing able to review?
The curriculum and decidewhether to opt their

Mandy (01:01:53):
Of course not.

katy (01:01:54):
So the last little bit of this article says school
districts lack clear plans forparent opt-outs.
So the teachers are unsure of,of like who's expected to
shoulder the burden of findingreplacement materials for
students who've opted out ofcertain content.

Mandy (01:02:07):
Mm-hmm.

katy (01:02:07):
even fully aware of the district's opt out policies.
So it's just like a hot mess.
So in some ways it does actuallykind of remind me of what's
going on at the national levelon other political issues where
these extremists have gottencontrol and then.
Their imposition of theseextremist views are sort of

(01:02:30):
backfiring.
Like, let's even take abortion.
You know, who is thatRepublican, elected official who
was blaming Democrats becauseshe almost died because she

Mandy (01:02:41):
Oh,

katy (01:02:41):
abortion

Mandy (01:02:42):
because she had ectopic pregnancy.
Mm-hmm.

katy (01:02:45):
like, yeah,

Mandy (01:02:46):
I don't remember her name, but yeah.
Mm-hmm.

katy (01:02:50):
you say that parents can opt out because you don't want
your kids to learn anythingabout gay people.
Like the, I'm not surprised thatthis is where it leads to this
overly complicated, kind ofinsane, and I use that term
truly like you have created astorm and mess, an impossible,
chaotic situation where no onewins.

(01:03:11):
Good job.

Mandy (01:03:12):
Mm-hmm.

katy (01:03:13):
Thank you for letting me

Mandy (01:03:14):
Yeah.

katy (01:03:15):
We will link to that in the show notes, but thoughts
like, what do you,

Mandy (01:03:17):
Yeah,

katy (01:03:18):
thoughts about that?
Like, so they're, they,

Mandy (01:03:20):
yeah.
I mean,

katy (01:03:21):
of like Christian infused literacy instruction.
Now what?

Mandy (01:03:26):
well, at first I thought you were gonna say that she
objected to the inclusion ofthings like the Thurman on the
Mount because it was tooliberal.

katy (01:03:36):
mean,

Mandy (01:03:37):
I feel like most conservative Christian
Republicans don't actuallyfollow Jesus's teachings like.
Fucking at all, quite frankly.
And so actually including hiswords might be problematic to
their worldview.
But yeah, I mean it's alsolegitimately one of the reasons,

(01:03:57):
'cause as we may have mentionedbefore, like Josh and I lived in
Houston, area of Texas for fouryears.

katy (01:04:03):
Oh.

Mandy (01:04:04):
Yeah.
And one of the reasons that weleft before our kids started
public school is that I waslike, I just can't, I can't have
them in the public schools here.
Like, I don't trust what isgonna be taught.
And it wasn't even religious atthat point.
And I highlighted a part in thechapter where I actually was
like, oh, sounds like Texas,where they talk about

(01:04:27):
citizenship education.
And like teaching these curatedhistories of what they want
children to believe about thestates that they live in.
And Texas is truly the wildestplace in the country for pro

(01:04:48):
Texas education.
My kids went to a privatepreschool while they were there,
a darling little British, it wascalled Paddington's, British
Preschool.
It was so wonderful in manyways.
But even there, they had entirelike weeks on end of Texas

(01:05:11):
indoctrination, like go Texandays.
they would be supposed to wearlike cowboy wear boots, hats
like.
I mean, we grew up in Iowa.
That's pretty proud of itself.
I mean, we've said before toothat they, Iowa will find any
connection to anything thathappens as like this person,

(01:05:31):
like

katy (01:05:32):
losers.
We know we are, but we're justtrying to like

Mandy (01:05:35):
yeah,

katy (01:05:35):
together.

Mandy (01:05:36):
like so and so, like I'm sure Luigi Mangione had a
layover in Des Moines at somepoint.
Someone would talk about it.

katy (01:05:43):
Iowa, so Yes.

Mandy (01:05:44):
Yeah, he did.
He went, yeah.
so we love our Iowa connections.
It doesn't hold a candle to howTexas educates its children on
being pro Texas.
while my kids in cowboy hatswere cute, I was horrified by
that part of their curriculumand could only imagine it

(01:06:09):
getting to this point as well.
And I was like, we have toleave.
Like they cannot be raised inthese schools and.
Thank goodness.
I can't imagine Bill being here.

katy (01:06:20):
is naive of me or just like delusively optimistic, but
it like, there is this part ofme that wonders if these efforts
when they're success will juststart to eat themselves.
Because when your ideology isbased on policing categories of
hierarchies, just becomesincreasingly about policing

(01:06:43):
increasingly more.
like there's always gotta bethis hierarchy.
So when we think aboutChristianity, like of course
Christianity is a super diverse,like there's no

Mandy (01:06:56):
Mm-hmm.

katy (01:06:56):
not even a single version of the Bible.

Mandy (01:06:58):
Mm-hmm.

katy (01:06:59):
it's like one thing,

Mandy (01:07:00):
One thing.

katy (01:07:01):
is not.

Mandy (01:07:02):
Yep.

katy (01:07:03):
There's all different ways to like, which gospels are
included, which gospels arelike, that's, it's not
monolithic in any way.
And so it, it seems like ifyou're trying for the supremacy
of that group, then it just,it's going to continue to
create, like there's inevitably,there's way more people who are
gonna be cut out than let it,like, it's just there.

(01:07:24):
That's, if that's your goal, isa, an ideology of supremacy.
It, it seems like that's whereit inevitably leads.
Now I don't want

Mandy (01:07:35):
Mm-hmm.

katy (01:07:36):
oh, so don't worry.
Let's just wait for it todestroy itself because the
damage done in the interim isjust so awful.
I can't get onboard thatstrategy.
But at least this article mademe think, okay, these opt out
policies that are totally basedin everything from this chapter,
like that is a strategy, you

Mandy (01:07:55):
Yeah.

katy (01:07:56):
rooted in the

Mandy (01:07:57):
Yeah, like maybe it just gives an inroad to make it
difficult for their victories.
just like our victories are notcomplete, their victories are
not complete either.
And so take advantage of thoselittle inroads.
Be a pain in the ass for yourpublic school, like your kid
out.

(01:08:18):
Demand that they find anotherway to educate your child.
Like just pick on everythingthat you can to show the flaw in
the system and hopefully thatwill make some bit of difference
in it.

katy (01:08:33):
so it's, we were talking about this last week, like be a
wrench, not a cog.
And I think support theseorganizations that are trying so
hard to support public schoolsand being able to, to teach
counter narratives again, thataren't the thing that is just,
so maybe this is like a goodplace to end on it.
That what's wild to me is sayingI'm not even teaching you hate

(01:08:58):
yourself.
That, that's not the point.
You know, it, I'm,

Mandy (01:09:03):
Right.

katy (01:09:03):
understand this vast complexity and diversity.
You can still be you in that.

Mandy (01:09:09):
Mm-hmm.

katy (01:09:09):
your version of things is imposing your way on everyone
else

Mandy (01:09:15):
Mm-hmm.

katy (01:09:16):
difference we're talking about.
So I am, I appreciate whatyou're saying.
Like utilize these things thatseem like victories to them.
I think a good example arevouchers.
Like, so those, it's gonna beinteresting to see how the
conservatives who are whitesupremacist Christian
nationalists respond when kidsare using vouchers to attend

(01:09:40):
Muslim schools, right.
Or non-Christian religiousschools.
Like what happens that, like,

Mandy (01:09:46):
Mm-hmm.

katy (01:09:47):
support that?
Like, is this really what you

Mandy (01:09:49):
Mm-hmm.

katy (01:09:50):
You know, private schools or charter schools that are
getting that money that areunabashedly progressive, you
know, like it, it just,

Mandy (01:09:58):
Yep.

katy (01:09:59):
it, there it's a bluff.
Like we have to call their bluffthat it's really about

Mandy (01:10:04):
Mm-hmm.

katy (01:10:04):
It's absolutely

Mandy (01:10:05):
No.

katy (01:10:06):
about white supremacy and white Christian nationalism.
Full stop.

Mandy (01:10:09):
Yep.

katy (01:10:10):
Right.
So

Mandy (01:10:11):
Yeah.

katy (01:10:11):
these tools that they've created that seem benign, I
guess, or seem disconnected fromthose things, or don't use any
of that explicit language, whenthe rubber meets the road, like
that's when their true colorscome out.

Mandy (01:10:25):
Yep.

katy (01:10:26):
the Optout policies, or in Iowa there's, you know,
legislation that you can't teachgender identity Well, okay, then
let's say all of the books thatuse pronouns, his and her, they
can't be

Mandy (01:10:39):
Mm-hmm.

katy (01:10:39):
because that teaches

Mandy (01:10:40):
That's a gender identity.

katy (01:10:42):
okay, like, I will see you, your bullshit, and I will
raise you,

Mandy (01:10:47):
Mm-hmm.

katy (01:10:49):
I'm gonna make you enact the stupid thing that you did
that you didn't really do forthe reasons it says on the
surface.
But we're going to, we're gonnaforce you to

Mandy (01:10:57):
What, and also make them say out loud.
The part that they don't want tosay out loud, like I think that
comes up in this chapter too, isthat a lot of times when they
were pushing these whitesupremacist ideologies, they
didn't have actually espousethis overt agenda because like

(01:11:26):
she says on page 46, they'retalking about Margaret
Robertson, who was a northerncounterpart to Rutherford and an
anti suffragist, anti radical.
It said, well, Robinson did notespouse an overly white
supremacist agenda.
She did not have to, the mostconservative educational
reformers ignored racialpolitics of their crusades.

katy (01:11:46):
Yep.

Mandy (01:11:46):
And I think that happens in all of the modern day stuff.
Like they, it's so baked into itthat they don't have to say it.
So if you turn it around andexploit these loopholes, you
make them say it, and then thechips can fall where they're
going to as you're being honestabout what you're doing.

(01:12:10):
And I think forcing that honestyis definitely a place where
inroads can potentially be made

katy (01:12:17):
Well, here we are.
Yes.

Mandy (01:12:22):
here.
We're.

katy (01:12:22):
I, yeah.
And I'm really excited for theseason as this unfolds to start
tapping into the folks who aredoing really cool, powerful,
exciting work to keep thesehistories alive, whether it's
through school or whether it'sthrough public history, who are
parenting and, you know,mothering in ways that are not

(01:12:43):
rooted in this white supremacy.
And so I, yeah, I'm just veryeager to.
Channel the sweats and shakesthat I have into action because

Mandy (01:12:54):
Yeah.

katy (01:12:55):
This was a really Yeah.
Fury

Mandy (01:12:57):
listeners, if you, yeah, and if our listeners know of
people in those realms, pleaselike, drop us a note, send us a
message if there are people whowould like to talk about that.
I think those are like episodes.
We would also love to recordtalking to people who are
involved in that, so yeah.

katy (01:13:16):
self-promotion.
We are admittedly

Mandy (01:13:18):
Mm-hmm.

katy (01:13:19):
like we, yeah, we have fallen down in

Mandy (01:13:21):
We just talk to each other once a week.

katy (01:13:23):
ideally once a week.
And God knows that has not beenthe case.

Mandy (01:13:26):
yeah.

katy (01:13:27):
we would be remiss if we did not also just remind
listeners who appreciate whatwe're doing to please subscribe
and to rate us with all thestars that helps in the
algorithm or whatever, you know,so people can find it.
At the very least, we shouldjust remind people to do that
because we're doing no othermarketing or promoting at

Mandy (01:13:45):
Promotion.
Yeah.

katy (01:13:46):
which I think we to do more of because I want to make
sure that especially our fellowwhite women, stop.
This like stop being involved inthis garbage to see things for
what they are, to alignourselves and be in solidarity
with people who have fourgenerations been doing the work
of fighting this fight againstour foremothers.

(01:14:09):
And we have to be clear-eyed anddedicated to not participating
in that, not perpetuating thatand getting our shit together.
Full stop.

Mandy (01:14:19):
Mm-hmm.
Yep.

katy (01:14:21):
Alright, on that

Mandy (01:14:22):
All right, so on that,

katy (01:14:24):
well talk to you

Mandy (01:14:25):
we'll talk to you again soon.
Okay, thanks.
Bye guys.