Mothers of Massive Resistance: Chapter 3

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In this episode, Mandy Griffin and Katy Swalwell continue their discussion on Elizabeth Gillespie McRae's book, 'Mothers of Massive Resistance.' They delve into the stories of three Southern white women—Florence Sillers Ogden, Mary Dawson Cain, and Cornelia Dabney Tucker—who significantly influenced political activism and white supremacy in the early to mid-20th century. Ogden leveraged local politics and New Deal policies to benefit white elites while maintaining segregation. Cain focused on anti-prohibition and business-friendly policies, also breaking with the Democratic Party due to its evolving racial policies. Tucker campaigned against FDR's court-packing plan and later promoted the Republican Party among Southern whites, emphasizing business interests and states' rights under a white supremacist agenda. The episode underscores the complex roles these women played in shaping the South's political landscape and how their actions still resonate today.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Hi, this is Mandy Griffin.

(00:01):
And I'm Katie Swalwell, andwelcome to our Dirty Laundry,
stories of white ladies making amess of things and how we need
to clean up our act.

Mandy (00:14):
Hello?

katy (00:16):
Hi,

Mandy (00:17):
Hi.

katy (00:18):
of an angel coming through my headphones.

Mandy (00:20):
Mm-hmm.
I don't know that it's ever beencharacterized as such, but thank
you.

katy (00:25):
I think that I can say that.
It's so good to see you.
I was complaining about a bugbite right under my eye that has
made my eye swell up.
It's really just karma becauseone time my daughter, she reacts
to bug bites.
Really?
Like intensely.

Mandy (00:43):
Mm-hmm.

katy (00:43):
she had gotten a bug bite right in the middle of her
eyebrows, like right there, andit swelled up and she was
totally fine.
You know, we gave her Benadryland so it ended, it went away.
But we, my husband and I werelaughing.
So hard and sending Star Trekcharacter memes to just show
like it was so swollen up herpoor little forehead, and now I

(01:04):
feel like this is just karma forme laughing at her in her
moment.

Mandy (01:09):
gosh.
So much of parenting is karma, Ifeel like.

katy (01:13):
yep, yep,

Mandy (01:15):
Yep.

katy (01:15):
true.
Well it's good to see you

Mandy (01:17):
Yes.

katy (01:17):
I'm super excited to schedule our conversation.
We haven't scheduled it yet, butit

Mandy (01:23):
Looks like,

katy (01:24):
we are gonna get a chance to talk to Elizabeth Gillespie,
MC Gray, and I'm so

Mandy (01:27):
yeah.

katy (01:27):
about that.
I probably shouldn't sayanything until we have it
scheduled.
'cause now I'm gonna jinx it.

Mandy (01:33):
We'll make it work.

katy (01:34):
Jinxing and karma and yeah, all, all the

Mandy (01:37):
All the superstitions

katy (01:39):
Put'em all together.
I'm currently sitting under aladder watching a black cat go
by while I record this.
Podcast.
Well,

Mandy (01:46):
Oh, but I,

katy (01:47):
ask

Mandy (01:47):
mm-hmm.

katy (01:48):
we've had so much rain here in Iowa, like unbelievably
wet summer, and the mosquitoesare just at an all time.
I've never experienced a summerlike this with mosquitoes like
this.
And I was

Mandy (01:59):
Ew.

katy (02:00):
you what, what the mosquito situation is in Las
Vegas.
Do you not really have any?

Mandy (02:04):
No, there's, I mean, here and there you might find one,
but like really?
No, it's very, there are hardlyany mosquitoes, which is great

katy (02:13):
there's

Mandy (02:14):
benefit.

katy (02:14):
standing water everywhere all the time in my community.
So that's just a breeding ground

Mandy (02:21):
Yeah,

katy (02:22):
buggers.
well that, I can't think of anymeaningful segue from mosquito
bites to white supremacy.

Mandy (02:30):
except for the annoyingness, like the constant
never ending

katy (02:35):
Yes.
And they just keep and yeah,wreaking havoc,

Mandy (02:38):
Yeah.

katy (02:39):
But we are reading Elizabeth Gillespie Mac Gray's
book, mothers of MassiveResistance, and we're currently
on chapter three campaigning fora Jim Crow South, which.
I know last week I came in sohot because the chapter was
about everything

Mandy (02:54):
You do?
Mm-hmm.

katy (02:56):
and this one, you know, it connected on some things we've
talked about before withelectoral politics for sure.
But more than anything, I wasjust writing a bunch of
questions because there a lot ofit was new learning for me are

Mandy (03:09):
Yeah.

katy (03:09):
interesting to think about this era, this moment.
In the twenties and thirtieswhen

Mandy (03:16):
The

katy (03:16):
I guess even thirties and forties into the early fifties
when the

Mandy (03:20):
Democratic

katy (03:21):
in the South starts to shift and like the modern
Republican party starts to form.
And I know we've wondered aboutthat in the past, just the nuts
and bolts of how that happened.
And this chapter was really

Mandy (03:33):
Really interesting in.
Yeah, I thought it was superinteresting in how that played
out and really interesting that.
White women had a lot to do withthat.

katy (03:44):
Right.
We

Mandy (03:45):
Great.
Okay.

katy (03:45):
known.

Mandy (03:46):
We shoulda known

katy (03:48):
We gotta

Mandy (03:48):
better.

katy (03:49):
sniffing them out.
Well, let's, let's just start,what were some of the pieces
that you found most interestingor, or where do you wanna start
our conversation today Forchapter three?

Mandy (03:57):
I mean, I think just the setup in the beginning of the
chapter.
Just kind of painting thispicture of what electoral
politics were like in the deepSouth in that time period was
very interesting to me.
Because she says just right inthe beginning that the Deep
South was home to the mostauthoritarian, undemocratic,

(04:19):
partisan political systems inthe nation.
That in.
The 1920s and 1940s presidentialelections brought out only
between 10% and 20% of thevoting age population.
And that over 90% of thosevoters cast their votes for the
Democratic Pres presidentialcandidate.

(04:41):
And that was just kind of areflection of that stronghold
the Democratic Party had and.
That also in those states, blackparticipations in elections fell
below 1% of the eligible votingage.
And my initial thought with thatwas like, oh, it's like the
current Republican party's dreamto bring back those same

(05:06):
authoritarian.
Political systems, which theyare trying to do by
gerrymandering today todisenfranchise people who are
voters, but it seems like it wasvery similar during that time
period as well, which is reallyinteresting.
I think I,

katy (05:24):
I mean, I know it's kind of low hanging fruit to say,
make America great again, iswanting this

Mandy (05:29):
that's what they're talking about.
Mm-hmm.

katy (05:31):
what they're talking

Mandy (05:32):
Mm-hmm.

katy (05:33):
I, I all the same parts that you said, especially the
fact that below 1% of blackpeople who were of voting age
were voting.
And of course this is 1935, Ithink is like, yeah, the 1930s
is really the stats she'spulling from.
So this is even after the 19thAmendment gets passed.

(05:54):
But of course there are all ofthese.
State level laws like poll taxesreading tests, grandfather
clause, like there, there areall of these and, and just voter
intimidation,

Mandy (06:05):
Mm-hmm.

katy (06:06):
if anyone sees you with the polls, you're gonna get
fired.

Mandy (06:08):
Mm-hmm.

katy (06:09):
And what I also didn't know some of that.
I think anyone who's familiarwith the civil rights movement,
this puts into context just howimportant and vital it was to do
that work in the South, but alsojust how incredibly.
Courageous and dangerous thatwork was to think that that's
the level of authoritarianismthat was

Mandy (06:29):
There

katy (06:30):
people went into that and

Mandy (06:32):
and people

katy (06:33):
up

Mandy (06:33):
up from that.

katy (06:34):
to push back.
I

Mandy (06:35):
Yeah.

katy (06:36):
so incredible to me and, and inspiring.

Mandy (06:40):
But one of the pieces that I didn't know about that
most of the states

katy (06:45):
for a

Mandy (06:45):
a while and South

katy (06:46):
when was the last

Mandy (06:47):
States,

katy (06:48):
move away from this, had open.
Ballots.
And

Mandy (06:52):
so you had to go.

katy (06:53):
and pick a

Mandy (06:54):
A Republican card or Democrat.
Mm-hmm.

katy (06:57):
you had to vote party lines and everyone saw what you
picked up.

Mandy (07:03):
And it really, this is one of the questions

katy (07:05):
chapter really made me wrestle with was

Mandy (07:07):
whether

katy (07:08):
secret

Mandy (07:08):
ballots are more or less democratic

katy (07:10):
because I

Mandy (07:11):
I know we'll get

katy (07:11):
into

Mandy (07:12):
it, that one of the women,

katy (07:13):
in this chapter from South Carolina and this, what was her
name?
I thought for sure I would

Mandy (07:19):
Dabney last I think.

katy (07:20):
Yes, Cornelia Dabney Tucker,

Mandy (07:23):
Mm-hmm.

katy (07:24):
maybe, she's the last woman featured in the chapter
and she, I think, honestly, wasthe one that I was most shocked
by.
But she lobbied really hard fora secret ballot it was going to
improve the chances of the.
The newly evolving Republicanparty's commitment to white

Mandy (07:44):
Supremacy myself

katy (07:45):
she

Mandy (07:45):
was

katy (07:46):
that was the

Mandy (07:46):
the only way they were ever gonna

katy (07:48):
seats.
And she was absolutely right.

Mandy (07:49):
Yep.

katy (07:50):
to the secret ballot actually emboldened

Mandy (07:54):
White re candidates like

katy (07:56):
got them into

Mandy (07:56):
power.
And yet

katy (07:58):
at

Mandy (07:58):
at the same time he opened

katy (08:00):
was

Mandy (08:00):
what led to this authoritarian.

katy (08:04):
Regime in the first place and this stranglehold that the
Democratic Party had in thesouth.
So I thought, gosh, I don't knowwhich is better.
Which is worse?

Mandy (08:13):
Yeah.

katy (08:14):
Secret ballot?
Because both, women on whitesupremacist side

Mandy (08:19):
Used both ways.
Yeah, right.

katy (08:22):
Yeah.

Mandy (08:22):
Well, and I guess the only highlight to that, to your
point, is if, if it can be usedboth ways on their side, then.
We have to figure out a way touse it both ways on the opposite
side, maybe to make some goodfor it.
I think.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And we'll get to that when wetalk to her more.

(08:44):
I think one of the interestingthings that, well, one of the
things I was shaking my fist atthe women suffragists for though
was the, the later statisticthat said when women did.
Get the right to vote.
There was this huge increase invoters in the presidential
elections.
So it said in Mississippi andSouth Carolina, there was a 69

(09:08):
and 63% increase in voters inpresidential elections with
women's suffrage.
But it said white women'ssuffrage did open up the
political system, but in manycases, white southern women also
made good on their promise thatas full citizens they would
uphold, not weaken the Jim Croworder.

(09:31):
So this is the deal we talkedabout when we were talking about
the fight for suffrage is thepart of the story that's really
kind of left out.
Our modern telling of it is thatthe deal with the devil that was
made was that women, white womenwould get the right to vote, but
kind of if they supported thedisenfranchisement of black

(09:54):
voters, and that's what theydid.

katy (09:58):
white

Mandy (09:58):
leaders.

katy (09:59):
leaders explicitly promised in their efforts

Mandy (10:02):
Yeah.

katy (10:02):
white male legislators to vote for the 19th Amendment.
was

Mandy (10:06):
Yep.

katy (10:07):
it was not like a secret or an accident That was a
strategy leveraged by.
Women leaders, the degree towhich they themselves that.
That's the argument around womenlike Carrie Chapman Catt, like,
oh, sure, she might've madethose arguments, but it was for
political expediency purposes.
It wasn't what she actuallybelieved, which I honestly think
makes it worse to be honest.

(10:28):
But it also doesn't reallymatter at the end of the day
because that is what happenedthat Elizabeth Gillespie McRay
says that they're, what they,what white women did with the
vote is to make and sustain JimCrow, not dismantle it.

Mandy (10:42):
Yep.
Yeah.

katy (10:44):
We, the o other piece that I thought was, so, there's so
much I found interesting aboutthis chapter, but this idea that
women getting the right to voteit, it wasn't like white women
in the south start suddenlyrunning for office.
that was the distinction too isthat their,

Mandy (11:01):
I,

katy (11:01):
them not being worried about winning elections
themselves

Mandy (11:05):
mm-hmm.

katy (11:06):
gave them freedom and power to really push on issues.
In ways that who wanted to runfor office or were trying to get
reelected, couldn't afford todo.
And so they put in theexpression, but these women just
went balls to the wall to, onthese issues.
And, and I thought that wasinteresting.

(11:26):
And

Mandy (11:26):
Huh.

katy (11:27):
subordinate position allowed them

Mandy (11:30):
Actually strengthened their fighting position in
these, yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.

katy (11:37):
someone who plays chess who's like, yes, that's this
gambit, because I don'tunderstand chess

Mandy (11:42):
Nope.

katy (11:42):
regularly beat me as I try very hard to beat them.
I don't understand.
I, I would be the worstpolitical strategist of all
time, but I, I thought that wasso interesting and that they, of
these women, I mean like in.
Lots of ways demonstrated theirtrue belief and commitment to
white supremacy.
Like they wrote about it.
They talked about it, but of thepolicies that they were

(12:05):
advocating that McRay says thatthey were often more of like a
color blind approach topolitics, but that all of the ad
policies they were advocatingfor.
A strengthened and deepenedwhite supremacy.
That I think is reallyinteresting too.
This kind of turn, it's like,oh, I recognize the baby that's

(12:26):
being squeezed out of this womb

Mandy (12:28):
Mm-hmm.

katy (12:29):
You know, like, oh, this is the modern political web of
relationships that I'm familiarand frustrated with, and I, I
see it being birthed in thismoment, reading this chapter.

Mandy (12:39):
Yeah, and I think important to point.
Out that that was the underlyingmessage still because I think
they were so effective in this,you know, the quote unquote
colorblindness, that it reallydid allow the future generation
to divorce themselves from thewhite supremacy and act like

(13:04):
that wasn't the underlyingstronghold in politics, while
also continuing it on.
Which is just so amazinglysubversive in like a very bad
way.
I think.
The other thing that Ihighlighted that I thought was
also just so shockingly similar,similar to today is when she

(13:27):
said, this is the bottom of page62, with less than 20% of
eligible voters in the southbothering to go to the polls at
all.
These three women that she talksabout were a minority speaking
to a minority, given theirintense political commitment.
They were hardly representativeof Southerners of any kind.

(13:47):
And I was like, just like today,I mean the elected.
Southern political officials.
I think that we see today, theLindsey Grahams and the Whatnots
are not at all representative ofthe majority of people who live
in the South.
I don't think it because thevoting populace is still while

(14:11):
maybe better than 20% not great.
And the efforts to decrease thevoice of people who are against
those.
Political powers that are theelite are so heavy in that area
still, that they are still justan elite representing the elite.

katy (14:32):
Mm-hmm.
The last piece I'll put forwardfor the context before we start
diving into these specificwomen, I think builds on that
too.
Like there it is, this just tinyportion, but they have so much
power and.
Just like the fact that theyweren't trying to run for office
themselves, and that affordedthem leeway.
I think something else thatseemed very modern to me was how

(14:56):
they, they were deep in partypolitics on both Republican and
Democratic sides, trying to, topush towards an explicit
commitment to states, right?
Like all of these kind of codeword things for, you know,
parental rights, whatever that,that we hear today, but they.
They had no problem.

(15:16):
So they were deeply involvedwith the party, but they were
not loyalists to the party.
They were

Mandy (15:21):
Yeah,

katy (15:21):
issues.
And I, I just kept writing overand over again like, tea Party
maga, like, it just, do you

Mandy (15:27):
same.
Same?
Yep.
Mm-hmm.

katy (15:29):
fascinating and the

Mandy (15:29):
Mm-hmm.

katy (15:30):
was the women who felt like they could take the lead on

Mandy (15:34):
Mm-hmm.

katy (15:34):
and call out the men in their party for.
Abandoning the values and issuesthat, that just struck me

Mandy (15:41):
So

katy (15:42):
hard.
And I wrote at one point howIan, because the, all of this
stuff with Jeffrey Epstein isright now going on, I don't know
when people end up listening tothis episode, but.
We're recording this in lateJuly, 2025, and the biggest
issue in the news right now, Ihonestly think like across the
new spectrum, which is reallyhard to do these days, to have

(16:03):
something that's getting talkedabout by all the networks, and
I'm sure there's some, you know,more or less on certain
networks, but the, it's thisidea that what the issue that
animated, especially women.
To commit to the Republicanparty, to maga to any of these
things comes from this world ofconspiracy theories and Q anon

(16:27):
that are, have have

Mandy (16:29):
Proposed that.

katy (16:30):
there's a, you know, highly organized pedophilic sex
trafficking ring that connectsHollywood elites and
politicians, et cetera.
And why they supported Trump wasthat he had promised to.
Out make public this client listof Jeffrey Epstein, who's a
notorious sex trafficker, superrich guy who supposedly killed

(16:54):
himself while in jail and hispartner is

Mandy (16:58):
Still in jail.

katy (16:59):
I mean, we should do a mini episode at

Mandy (17:00):
Yeah.

katy (17:00):
there's a white lady who's done some shit.

Mandy (17:03):
Yep.

katy (17:04):
But it's fascinating to me to watch The fervor

Mandy (17:09):
That the people who are coming

katy (17:10):
issue

Mandy (17:12):
don't seem to have a problem.

katy (17:14):
I,

Mandy (17:15):
I wouldn't say

katy (17:16):
abandoning the

Mandy (17:17):
Republican

katy (17:17):
abandoning Trump, but wielding their

Mandy (17:19):
power

katy (17:20):
to get those people to do what they want them to do

Mandy (17:23):
and

katy (17:24):
to

Mandy (17:24):
say that we're not.

katy (17:26):
loyal to you.
We're not actually loyal to thisparty.
We are loyal to this issue, andthis is why we care about, I
mean, we really should do anepi.

Mandy (17:33):
Yeah,

katy (17:33):
we'll end up doing like many, many episodes about.
Anon and its connections to MAGAbecause it does connect to
motherhood.
It's this idea of protectingchildren and yeah, just how that
spread like wildfire.
So I, I don't

Mandy (17:45):
I don't know what

katy (17:46):
your thoughts about

Mandy (17:46):
that.

katy (17:47):
women saying we're gonna be super politically active, but
we're, we're committed to issuesand we will go with whoever

Mandy (17:54):
Is gonna,

katy (17:55):
us to that destination.

Mandy (17:57):
I think that we see it like play both ways.
I guess.
As always.
I mean,

katy (18:02):
Yeah.
Yeah.

Mandy (18:04):
my whole thought and we'll see how all of this
Epstein stuff plays out.
Is that in this case, I juststill don't see a world in which
Trump doesn't end up still.
Getting his way on this one.
Like I just don't know that Isee that group as powerful

(18:24):
enough to really sway it.
And he's just.
Gotten away with so much, and tome, this just, I don't even
understand how this is an issuenow because I feel like all of
this information about Trumpbeing on the list and obviously
he's not gonna wanna put it out,has just been so obvious to at
least the, the progressive sidethat I don't know.

(18:47):
I don't know that it's gonna bea linchpin in this whole.
Partisan thing, but it'sinteresting to watch.
It's really interesting to seethat that play out.
I agree.
I mean, yeah.

katy (19:00):
in this specific topic because I do think we should get
into it more, but I, whetherregardless of the degree to
which we think this indicatesany kind of real change in the
political wins.
It does.
It just reminds me so much.
Like it's the issue that'sfiring people up.
specifically white women, andthey're going to follow that

(19:24):
issue through come hell or highwater.
That just reminded me so much ofwhat's now and that

Mandy (19:29):
well in this case I'm all for it.

katy (19:32):
Yeah, I know.
Yes, for sure, for sure.
Well, let's start with the firstlady.
Why don't you introduce us

Mandy (19:37):
Yeah.

katy (19:38):
first woman in the chapter?

Mandy (19:40):
Yeah, so I think that there's really interesting
differences between these women,which is part of what made the
chapter itself, I think, such afascinating one to read.
But, so it starts with a womannamed Florence Tiller's Ogden.
And she.
Kind of represented, I thinkwhat we think of as southern

(20:03):
political elite white women whogrew up in this very powerful
family who was involved inpolitics had a lot of money, was
very influential in this era,but was still entrenched in the
old politics of the South.
So it says she was a devotedDemocrat, a new deal advocate,
an FDR fan.

(20:25):
She was just this very.
Faithful Southern Democratperson.
But interestingly, it just makesthis single quick mention that
she was the wife of a Chicagoman who had come south, but she
stayed an aunt and not a mother.

katy (20:43):
Mm-hmm.

Mandy (20:43):
again, like another woman, very influential in
politics and promoting all ofthis, you know, patriarchal.
Societal roles, gender basedroles, kind of politics.
Not a mother, not your typicalwhite, traditional trad wife

(21:05):
type woman that she is arguingfor.

katy (21:08):
Right.
None.
None of them were

Mandy (21:09):
none of them were, no, yeah, it was very, yeah.
All of them.

katy (21:13):
to motherhood.

Mandy (21:14):
Yep.
Yep.
All of them.
Also college educated, although.
She went to,

katy (21:20):
about that

Mandy (21:21):
yeah,

katy (21:21):
she had,

Mandy (21:22):
a non-degree program.
I was like, oh, of course.
Go to college.
Spend the time

katy (21:29):
and money,

Mandy (21:30):
and money.
Not a degree.

katy (21:32):
paying for it.

Mandy (21:33):
Yeah, didn't get a degree.

katy (21:34):
she studied.
Expression, cultivatedoriginality and refined
naturalness and.
To me it just, it seemed like,oh, college for influencers.

Mandy (21:46):
Yes,

katy (21:46):
you're not

Mandy (21:47):
yes, yes,

katy (21:48):
teach you how to, you know, look pretty and seduce
people into think doing what youwant them to do.

Mandy (21:54):
absolutely.

katy (21:55):
actually she went to Belmont, which is where my
husband graduated from.
So

Mandy (21:58):
Oh, really?

katy (21:59):
his brain and ask him.

Mandy (22:00):
Oh.

katy (22:01):
told me a few stories of what that was like.
He transferred there for hislast two years of college.
And you know, as a, a kid fromMinnesota, to move to Tennessee.
And I, I do remember one timethat he told me he was waiting
tables and like the relireligiosity of the area really
was a huge culture shock forhim.

(22:22):
And he said multiple times thatpeople would ask him when he was
serving them, have you beensaved?
And that.
first few times he was reallyconfused by the question was
like, I, I'm okay.
I'm doing fine.
You know,

Mandy (22:32):
Like, like he's being trafficked himself or something.

katy (22:35):
I don't know.
then he, he said it took himlonger than he thought to really
connect the dots about what theywere actually asking.
But yeah, I'm gonna have to say,oh, were you.
Were the girls expressive andcultivated in an original way
and had refined naturalness.
Maybe that's I have heard fromfriends, who went to school
different places in the deepSouth about football games and

(22:57):
the, the expectation to dress upfor football games and like wear
makeup, do your hair, wear adress, like it, just such a
different, cultural connected togender than anything we were.

Mandy (23:10):
Yeah.

katy (23:11):
enmeshed in, immersed in ourselves.
and a friend one time who said,she is from the south, and she's
like, Ooh, I'm a 10 in Iowa.
I like this.
And I was like

Mandy (23:21):
Wow.
All those Iowa Farm girl scrubsout there dressing in our slop
and

katy (23:28):
Bless our hearts.
Yeah.

Mandy (23:30):
Wow.
Wow.

katy (23:31):
let's, let's

Mandy (23:32):
Okay.

katy (23:33):
Ogden then.

Mandy (23:34):
Yeah, and so she was very, once she left that
non-degree program, then sheseemed to dive right into the
politics of the South, gettingsuper involved in our favorites,
the DAR and the UDC.
Interestingly talks more about,'cause we talked about how we
probably didn't have as manyproblems with the daughters of
the American Revolution as we dowith the UDC and I was like,

katy (23:57):
we

Mandy (23:57):
nah, we probably should have.
Because she was talking abouthow over this decade the, the
DAR shifted from this moreprogressive Americanization.
Ideal to anti radical campaigns,stressing ethnic Latin
nationalism, immigrationrestrictions, suppression of
subversives

katy (24:16):
Mm-hmm.

Mandy (24:16):
support for a security state.
So there were ideas and likecommittees and efforts towards
very familiar things.
What we're seeing today,increased state sanction
surveillance education programs,blacklisting of quote.
Doubtful speakers, reformers,and peace activists.
I'm like, okay.

(24:37):
All the same thing.
All of it.

katy (24:40):
I wrote in the corner there how very no.
Ish being NOEM, Christy?
No, just, it, it made me thinkso much of her, like the, her
coplay with border security and,you know, the, this set of
issues, this bundle of issuesalso just seemed so creepily
modern.

Mandy (24:58):
Yeah.
Yep.
I did say that the DAR still wascautious of embracing this
race-based nationalism that theUDC was just out there with.
But apparently Ogden just didn'thave any problem with that.
Disc congruity between the twogroups, and she went full force
into a lot of their things.

(25:20):
Like she wrote about the dangersof immigration.
And it just, this language, Iwas like, Ugh, this is the
language we, that I felt like Ihad hoped we had moved fast.
And then Trump just emboldenedagain and brought right back to
the forefront.
In one of her writings, she saidthat immigration works
undercover like a cancer.

(25:42):
Eating away at the very vitalsof our country.
That was like sad face emoji inthe margins.
Like how are we still in thissame, you know, early 19
hundreds.
It's like a hundred years laterand we're doing the exact same
thing.

katy (26:01):
Yeah, think

Mandy (26:02):
let's definitely do.

katy (26:03):
a mini episode, at least on the Daughters of the American
Revolution because I, now, I'mremembering that in the
thirties, I wanna say latethirties, they infamously would
not let Marian Anderson sing attheir concert venue in
Washington, DC a black woman.

Mandy (26:19):
Mm-hmm.

katy (26:19):
Let's, let's put a pin in that to get into it.
'cause I'm sure there's a lotmore there.
Yeah.
This anti-immigration piece ofit.
Surpri surprise me.
It, it's not surprising in that,especially the quote you just
read, like obvi, it all fitstogether.
But I, what, what intrigued mewas how cross issue they, these

(26:42):
women's platforms were just the,the bundle of issues they were
interested in,

Mandy (26:46):
That it wasn't.

katy (26:47):
Simply white supremacy in terms of anti-black racism in
electoral politics, let's say.
Like it really was this crossissue bundle that exists right
now

Mandy (26:58):
Mm-hmm.

katy (26:59):
all fit together.
And

Mandy (27:01):
and

katy (27:01):
think too, I was really shocked and, and again, this is
just showing my ignorance andpeeling back the onions, like I

Mandy (27:08):
I knew some about

katy (27:09):
deal

Mandy (27:10):
having Implications for

katy (27:12):
equality that were bad.

Mandy (27:14):
like, they,

katy (27:15):
when social Security was passed,

Mandy (27:17):
it wasn't for certain

katy (27:19):
workers that were disproportionately workers of
color,

Mandy (27:23):
Yeah.

katy (27:24):
farm workers or domestic servants.
Right.

Mandy (27:26):
So there I, there was some of that.
I knew that I just,

katy (27:29):
to read

Mandy (27:30):
Alex, how

katy (27:31):
these

Mandy (27:32):
women.

katy (27:32):
loved.
and supported the New Deal

Mandy (27:35):
Yeah,

katy (27:35):
they saw it as benefiting their white supremacist aims.
I that it, it was just, hmm,important to read that this of
Big D Democrat.
Politics.
FDR, it makes sense.
Like the only way he could getelected three times, the only
way he could have the level ofsupport he had is because enough

(27:58):
people found his policies tobenefit what they wanted push
forward.

Mandy (28:04):
Yeah, I thought that was a really interesting thread,
like throughout this chapter, isthat the whole FDR New Deal
component, working in thesepolitics of these women in ways
that I just had not thought ofbefore

katy (28:18):
Right.

Mandy (28:19):
Again, just so the same things like I wrote in the more
the margins, like, oh, familiar.
And here's the same thing again.
Like they brings up this wholefear of, indoctrination of
unsuspecting undergraduates incolleges where they were just
afraid of them beingindoctrinated by these European
political refugees and beingpulled away from American ideals

(28:44):
by learning from people fromother cultures, basically.
Yeah, I just,

katy (28:49):
anti-intellectualism, like

Mandy (28:51):
Yep.
Mm-hmm.

katy (28:51):
too.
So there's a, a point whereshe's talking, Ogden is really
opposed to quote scholarsshrouded in caps and gowns and
poets who would steal from therich and give to the poor.

Mandy (29:02):
Steal from the rich.

katy (29:04):
they?

Mandy (29:05):
I, I, I think I laughed out loud at that steal from the
rich and give to the poor inlike a non funny way, like in a
incredulous way.
Like, wait a second.
Where do you think the rich gotrich from?

katy (29:21):
Oh

Mandy (29:21):
yes.

katy (29:21):
this, we, I think we have to also mention the, the column
that she wrote

Mandy (29:25):
Yes,

katy (29:26):
years called DIS and Debt.
I don't even like saying it.
It's like a vernacular

Mandy (29:33):
Rn.

katy (29:33):
appropriated that she got the phrase from a black tenant
farmer that.
Was a sharecropper.
She ran this plantation ofsharecroppers, which is the
whole other topic we shouldn'tneed to get into.
But Nick Gray says by ignoringthe social context of economic
exploitation that undergirdedthe tenant's request, the tenant

(29:54):
was asking her.
To borrow 50 cents for quote, Alittle of dis and debt.
Oh my God.
Again, it's like I'm re quotinghere from this chapter, but that
then

Mandy (30:06):
she takes

katy (30:06):
this.
The,

Mandy (30:08):
conversation.

katy (30:09):
had with someone over how she was exploiting them

Mandy (30:12):
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.

katy (30:13):
the black vernacular, appropriates it, and then makes
up the title of her column thatshe's using to argue for further
exploitation of these people islike a pretty

Mandy (30:25):
Mind blowing, just so upsetting.
I mean, I don't know any otherway to,

katy (30:33):
it is.

Mandy (30:34):
to even talk about it.
And then this is a column itsays that ran for more than 35
years.

katy (30:41):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.

Mandy (30:43):
Ugh.

katy (30:44):
But by her own estimation, she was a fair, benevolent, and
successful

Mandy (30:48):
Yes.

katy (30:48):
of her sharecroppers.
Even though she thought this.
And her workers striked likeit's, it's such a classic thing
that you see in people's memoirsor letters or whatever there.
I remember doing some work whenI was a professor at Iowa State
and there was a formeruniversity president there who
was writing about how Iowa Statewas one of the earliest

(31:10):
universities to black students.
And so he's writing about howlike they're so welcome and
they're thriving here.
They

Mandy (31:17):
They do have trouble.

katy (31:18):
housing.
admits

Mandy (31:20):
It's like because your university

katy (31:23):
policies that they can't live

Mandy (31:24):
on,

katy (31:25):
So

Mandy (31:26):
the fact that you're arguing that group, so

katy (31:29):
on campus,

Mandy (31:29):
yet acknowledging that they houses.

katy (31:31):
finding housing and fail to connect those dots, that you
aren't actually welcoming thosepeople if you have segregated
housing.
Not even segregated housingpolicies, discriminatory housing
policies like that.
That just the inability toconnect point A to point B is.
Pretty stunning.

Mandy (31:48):
And then she said, you know, I make them,

katy (31:50):
but I

Mandy (31:50):
I treat them like human being.

katy (31:52):
And I wrote Slow clap.

Mandy (31:54):
well, and I also wrote like, treat them like human
beings,

katy (31:58):
I don't.

Mandy (32:00):
as if they weren't like just this paternalistic
narrative still is.
Yeah,

katy (32:08):
And

Mandy (32:08):
wild.

katy (32:09):
wrote that.
Her workers had very littleimpedance in backtalk, which she
found remarkable.
Quote, from a race, only a fewgenerations removed from this
savage jungle.
Like even her, I guess, kind ofattempt at a compliment is so
dripping in such deep andignorance and bigotry.

(32:31):
Racism, it's, it just, I, I'msure if there are records of the
people who for her that theymight tell a very different
story.
Keeping Stephanie Jones Rogerswork in mind of the slave
narratives that she researchedto learn about what it was like
to be enslaved by white women.
And those people had tales totell, and I'm sure would have

(32:52):
similar stories from, from thisexperience.
So she was really committed tolobbying for policies that
would.
Tax policies specifically thatwould benefit large landowners,
large business owners.

Mandy (33:06):
That part was so interesting to me too in how
things are all so interconnectedthat even things like tax
policy, you can see theinstitutionalization of racism
and segregation and all of thatbuilt into even something like

(33:27):
that where you look at thingslike.
Property tax versus sales tax.
And I think that most peoplewould on the face think, what
does that have to do with race?
Like what does that haveanything to do with even like
socioeconomic policies oranything?
And looking at the difference ofwho pays those taxes.

(33:50):
And then where that money comesfrom, either the rich property
holding, and especially at thistime and even now, mostly elite
people versus sales tax, whichis paid by anyone who has to
live

katy (34:03):
Mm-hmm.

Mandy (34:04):
things.
That was such an interestingconnection that I hadn't thought
about.

katy (34:10):
are are going to pay for and who disproportionately
benefits from that.

Mandy (34:16):
Right.

katy (34:17):
And, and when we talk about entitlements, I hate that
phrase, but we talk aboutwhatever those programs are like
the idea, especially in thesegregated south, that black
people were benefiting from thestate government in any way,
shape, or form is laughable.
You know?

Mandy (34:30):
Mm-hmm.

katy (34:31):
saying, well, they really need to pay their own way.
Meanwhile, she is thrilled aboutthe.
New Deal.
This was the example that wasjust so grotesque to me, was
that she secured federal funds.
She being Ogden to build a whiteonly country club

Mandy (34:50):
Mm-hmm.

katy (34:51):
in her community.

Mandy (34:52):
Mm-hmm.

katy (34:54):
thought, wow, that, that definitely.
Mm, cast a shadow on the NewDeal, to say the least, that

Mandy (35:00):
Yeah.

katy (35:01):
what the argument was is that it was dangerous for local
white children to swim in mudholes near the levies.
And so she organizes all thesewhite mothers to protect their
children for recreationalpurposes, and so they create a
petition.
To use the WPA money to build alocal park.

(35:22):
And then as that this planapproved that, you know, they
start adding things onto it.
Then it includes a nine holegolf course, tennis courts, a
clubhouse, a swimming pool, andthe park ends up opening in 1936
under the name of her father.
And it was obviously segregated,so this was a white only.

(35:44):
Literal country club and thatblack people were not allowed to
go there except to work aslaborers to manicure the lawns
and to keep it up.
And then thi this part.
Do you wanna talk about theraces?

Mandy (35:58):
Yeah, the annual Delta Mule Races.
I had to underline the partwhere she said in this quote,
exciting sport unquote.

katy (36:08):
My good.
Mm-hmm.

Mandy (36:09):
sure that's what they called it.
Then black jockeys rodeunsettled plantation mules for
thousands of spectators who bet,drank and cheered on the Deltas
workforce.
Yeah,

katy (36:23):
And that was what raised money to

Mandy (36:27):
to keep it going.

katy (36:29):
the grant.

Mandy (36:29):
Yeah.
Uhhuh.

katy (36:31):
the federal funds.

Mandy (36:32):
Yeah, and it says, this was just reminded me of all of
the politicians that ended upbenefiting from like PPP loans
during COVID.
Back just a little before this,it talks about den Ogden's
family would be among theprimary beneficiaries, perhaps
receiving more than$200,000.
I mean, and think of how muchmoney that was.

(36:54):
Back then

katy (36:55):
Mm-hmm.

Mandy (36:56):
and thus were kept financially solvent by the New
deal.
I mean,

katy (37:01):
That's, that's how you can have someone,

Mandy (37:03):
this is.

katy (37:04):
words again.
She was a defender of the NewDeal.
A proponent of defini deficitspending an appreciative
recipient of federal aiddollars, a staunch
segregationist, and a whitesupremacist.
All those things could be truefor the

Mandy (37:15):
Well, and this is just the whole idea of corporate
welfare too.
Like we're not okay withprograms that actually fund like
feeding people or givingtextbooks to schools or
whatever.
But we will definitely take your200,000 equivalent, two millions
of dollars now to run ourfamilies businesses in the way
that we think that they.

(37:36):
Benefit us because we are thewhite elite who are of course,
using it in the right way, notthe way that we think is
mooching off of society.
Although it is the exact samething, only a hundred times more
expensive, thousands of timesmore expensive and worse.

(37:57):
Ugh.

katy (37:58):
right,

Mandy (37:59):
Yes.
I hate it.

katy (38:00):
it's not great.
Let's move.
There's even more about Ogden,but I, I think we should move on
to Mary Dawson Kane.
And

Mandy (38:08):
Yes.

katy (38:08):
Was someone who, again, was married, but they lost their
only child just afterchildbirth.
So

Mandy (38:13):
Yep.

katy (38:14):
not.
Currently parenting anyone.
She was a devout Baptist super,super religious, but did not
believe that religion should beconnected to the state.
She was deeply committed to theseparation of church and state.
She thought that religion had norole in discussions of freedom
and liberty.
This,

Mandy (38:32):
again was one of those examples of how.

katy (38:35):
people.
come to such wildly differentconclusions despite having the
similar beliefs or values orwhatever.
That these are all just yeah,complicated women who exemplify
all of these interestingalliances and ways that strange
bedfellows to support certainpolicies.
They illuminate how that ispossible.

(38:56):
was really interested in thecampaign to end prohibition, and
again, you would.
Maybe guess that like a devoutBaptist would be prohibition of
alcohol.
But she was a wet, which I thinkis an unfortunate for the people
who, I know it's the opposite ofdry, but it's just like, ugh.
It, it just made me think of theword

Mandy (39:15):
It's like the bird.
Moist.
Yes.
So gross, moist, wet.

katy (39:19):
So she was the against prohibition.
I, she wasn't like pro alcohol,I don't think, but basically
did.
She's in the anti, the nannystate.
She, she doesn't want thegovernment kind of up in
people's business, so she struckme as almost more like a
libertarian kind of vibe interms of modern logics.
Just, it's not the state'sbusiness to regulate morals, of

(39:42):
course.
It's like, which morals does shewant to regulate?
In which ways is maybe a betterquestion.
So she had

Mandy (39:52):
work this and was aligned with people and

katy (39:54):
other piece of this that like just the

Mandy (39:57):
inside

katy (39:58):
politics and, and.
How you can have

Mandy (40:01):
power, in some ways,

katy (40:03):
you don't have power in other

Mandy (40:04):
ways,

katy (40:04):
And, and

Mandy (40:06):
and this

katy (40:06):
of both Kane.
And the next one we're gonnatalk about

Mandy (40:09):
was that

katy (40:10):
because

Mandy (40:11):
were,

katy (40:11):
the outlier, they got a lot of attention

Mandy (40:14):
yep.

katy (40:14):
being.
This, like, oh, you're a a, aBaptist woman who doesn't want
prohibition.
Who wants prohibition to goaway?

Mandy (40:22):
Yeah.

katy (40:22):
interesting.
Let's give you more airtime.
Let's give you press because youare this outlier.
And I, I thought that wasinteresting too.

Mandy (40:29):
Well, I also think that the background in which she was
living was so much differentthan Ogden as well, that that
probably really influenced theway she looked at it.
So it says that she lived inthis part of Mississippi where
it was.
A timber industry and small forfarms that were owned and worked

(40:50):
by 58% white majority.
So it seemed to me she was moreworking in this kind of, maybe
more quote unquote, poor white.
Area

katy (41:01):
Mm-hmm.

Mandy (41:02):
of the south where it even says like the county was
this hard scrabble county oftough men and tough women.
That was home to both an earlyMississippi NAACP chapter and a
thriving KKK presence.
So it's like.
Kind of a different milieu ofsociety that she's in.

(41:23):
And I think maybe thatcontributed to, to her anti
prohibition stance, just in thelanguage that she argued that
one prohibition violated theseconstitutional rights.
But I also found the nextstatement like super interesting
that it made criminals out ofdecent men.

katy (41:42):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.

Mandy (41:43):
Again, this idea of like protecting, we talked about it
with the KK, K last time and nowlike the prohibition type thing.
When you're looking at theseworking men and probably these
less financially secure whitemen and the relationship there
to alcohol and then thecriminalization of that.

(42:05):
Now it's just so deep, likethere's so many strings to pull
at in all of that.
That I think probably informed.
The decision she made, and it'sjust interesting how that all
then still worked together withthis exactly.

katy (42:21):
like how you can get all of that to line up in your brain
and not have cognitivedissonance around it.
It actually made me think aboutthe opioid epidemic, which we,
we call an epidemic, whichframes it as like a medical
crisis, not as a criminalcrisis.
And I think that because it's anepidemic that really impacts

Mandy (42:41):
White

katy (42:41):
You know, like not just

Mandy (42:43):
people obviously,

katy (42:44):
but

Mandy (42:44):
I,

katy (42:44):
she's

Mandy (42:45):
very

katy (42:46):
Clearly

Mandy (42:47):
Packaging

katy (42:48):
the policies and issues she cares about within a white
supremacist frame.
She

Mandy (42:52):
was

katy (42:53):
mad that there was an anti-lynching bill being
proposed, and so she wasbreaking with the Democrats

Mandy (43:00):
as the New Deal Democrats.
There were people in that partythat were more progressive and.

katy (43:07):
you know, Eleanor Roosevelt, the first lady at the
time, was really

Mandy (43:10):
outspoken on

katy (43:12):
Desegregation and, and anti-racism.
And

Mandy (43:14):
So I think that

katy (43:15):
wing

Mandy (43:16):
of what was

katy (43:16):
pulling

Mandy (43:17):
the Democrats

katy (43:18):
that

Mandy (43:18):
direction,

katy (43:19):
she was having none of that.
So she called herself aJeffersonian Democrat to
distinguish herself from anyabout racial equality.

Mandy (43:28):
This, you know, person.

katy (43:29):
lynchings happening.
Around her and it's just notconsidered a problem.
And

Mandy (43:35):
so this is

katy (43:36):
kind of

Mandy (43:36):
of

katy (43:37):
like morphs into the dixiecrats that then morphs into
the, them leaving the democraticparty, joining the Republican
party and then pulling the

Mandy (43:45):
publican,

katy (43:46):
party

Mandy (43:47):
right?

katy (43:47):
when that had been the party of racial equality, the
party of Lincoln defending thenation, et cetera.
So she was also involved in likeconsumer.

Mandy (43:59):
Yeah.
So here's

katy (44:00):
business

Mandy (44:01):
value.
Yeah.
This is where we get, again,like to the financial part of it
and the more how we can seewhere the politics of pro
business actually infuse withthis.
Kind of politics as well.
So she was part of the women's,or the leadership of the women's

(44:21):
division of the Democratic Partyand supported the National
Consumers Tax Commission.
So this was this network ofconsumers, farmers, housewives,
and businessmen who lobbied forreduction in business taxes,
again, sponsored thatorganization.

katy (44:40):
The National Grocery Store a and

Mandy (44:43):
Yeah.

katy (44:43):
because they

Mandy (44:44):
They wanted to be able to

katy (44:45):
have chains all

Mandy (44:47):
for and

katy (44:47):
they were pushing for that.
So they

Mandy (44:49):
pushing

katy (44:49):
organization really just as it, it

Mandy (44:53):
made people think.

katy (44:53):
like a consumer

Mandy (44:54):
Yep.

katy (44:55):
but it was really just a business lobby.
And she

Mandy (44:57):
And was very clear

katy (44:58):
that she's pro business.
I

Mandy (45:01):
I mean,

katy (45:01):
you, you start to see like the kind of Reagan Republican
that, that's what she struck me

Mandy (45:06):
Mm-hmm.

katy (45:06):
kind of emerging out of this, Yeah, I, I thought she was
interesting too.
Do we wanna switch over toCornelia Dabney Tucker,

Mandy (45:15):
Yes.
Although I don't know if we,

katy (45:17):
Kane?

Mandy (45:18):
I think this the last interesting point that I would
make about Kane before we moveon to the next lady is this
point that McCray makes.
On the top of page 75 where it'sjust looking at the.
The ability of white women toinhabit this role.
Kind of like you talked about atthe beginning of the chapter

(45:39):
where it says, while manydemocratic office holders were
unwilling to make a claim breakwith a popular president, such a
breach could own, could mosteasily be accomplished by white
women who had little to lose inthe way of elected posts or pol
or partisan perks.
So yeah, that's just exactlywhat you were saying is that
they could get away with.

(45:59):
Being these more fringe types ofgroups because they weren't
trying to get elected.
They weren't trying to keep thepopular politics alive.
Yeah.
And

katy (46:10):
still have a lot of power to mobilize people.
I, I guess it's, you know, forbetter or worse, we keep saying
that it's there.

Mandy (46:17):
there.

katy (46:17):
lots of different lovers of power, not just those
official formal positions ofauthority, those matter, but
that they were the, all thesewomen, Cain included, were
clearly using their.
Position, they're in a lot ofways subordinate position to, to
do a lot of work and to push thepeople who were elected to make

(46:38):
them support the policies thatthey wanted to support.

Mandy (46:41):
Yeah.

katy (46:42):
I think you mentioned this too, the context all these women
are in are so distinct andimportant in the deep South.
Like

Mandy (46:48):
Whether.

katy (46:49):
are like Ogden and you are know, a super wealthy.
Plantation sharecropper bosslady, and you know, in a
majority black community oryou're like, Cain, and you're
growing, you're in a majority

Mandy (47:03):
White

katy (47:04):
community

Mandy (47:04):
that's

katy (47:05):
poor.

Mandy (47:06):
And then we have

katy (47:08):
Dabney Tucker, who

Mandy (47:09):
is in South Carolina,

katy (47:11):
Charleston.
And

Mandy (47:13):
that has a very different context too.
And, and even just her effortsto

katy (47:18):
Promote Charleston

Mandy (47:19):
to as a destination,

katy (47:20):
to see it

Mandy (47:20):
as like Aorist.

katy (47:22):
site

Mandy (47:23):
Mm-hmm.

katy (47:24):
trying to bring dollars into the community through
tourism.

Mandy (47:28):
Her back

katy (47:28):
too, just knowing she was married

Mandy (47:30):
to a

katy (47:31):
real estate man who was also really committed to this
idea of making South Carolinathis paradise

Mandy (47:37):
paradise

katy (47:38):
wealthy white people to come visit.

Mandy (47:40):
and,

katy (47:40):
they had five kids,

Mandy (47:42):
but, but then he died,

katy (47:43):
in 1941, and so she had.
No

Mandy (47:46):
husband, and he didn't

katy (47:48):
leave her

Mandy (47:48):
very much.

katy (47:49):
she has these five kids that she's raising on her own.
So she goes to

Mandy (47:53):
Mm-hmm.

katy (47:54):
estate and antiques.
And I, I

Mandy (47:56):
Think all of that,

katy (47:57):
is connected to this.
If you're gonna make Charlestonor antiques from,

Mandy (48:03):
you

katy (48:03):
pre-Civil war

Mandy (48:04):
era whatever,

katy (48:05):
gonna make a business outta that, you have to be
committed romanticizing

Mandy (48:10):
this, this past, creating this myth of that.
You know, with all of that,

katy (48:14):
We do, we

Mandy (48:15):
we have episode about presentation weddings like.

katy (48:16):
just made me think of the

Mandy (48:19):
Aesthetic

katy (48:19):
she's marketing to

Mandy (48:20):
to people and how that's connected to

katy (48:23):
the lost cause as well.
So she was really, one of thefirst issues she gets involved
in is the F

Mandy (48:29):
yeah's proposal,

katy (48:30):
pack the Supreme Court,

Mandy (48:32):
which I couldn't figure out like that was,

katy (48:35):
issue she latched onto

Mandy (48:37):
and why

katy (48:38):
The,

Mandy (48:39):
she sends out these specific,

katy (48:41):
to

Mandy (48:41):
to get other women to sign on, not just women, but

katy (48:43):
a, a

Mandy (48:43):
a network of women that develop so fast, like mm-hmm.

katy (48:46):
from hundreds to many, many, many thousands across the
country in the

Mandy (48:50):
Matter of.

katy (48:51):
weeks and months.

Mandy (48:52):
Yep.

katy (48:53):
did you catch why

Mandy (48:55):
No,

katy (48:55):
the issue?

Mandy (48:56):
I thought that same thing.
I was like, we need to do like alittle deep dive into what.
All is entailed into theopposition to court packing at
that point in time, because Iknow that it's been brought up
again in our current politics oflike, how are we gonna solve all
of these issues we have?
Let's expand the Supreme Courtmore on the liberal side.

(49:17):
And so it's like, here's anotherway that we could.
See how it goes both ways.
Like there's arguments that areforeign against it on both
sides, but I don't, I don't knowwhy that that is an issue we
should definitely get more into,but you're right.
So she started collecting thesesignatures against, it started
with 166 signatures, and in lessthan three weeks was up to

(49:39):
150,000 telegrams arriving atthe courts to oppose this court
packing or arising, arriving atCongress.
Yeah.

katy (49:49):
so amazing to

Mandy (49:50):
to me to do that.

katy (49:51):
in a time where there's no

Mandy (49:53):
There's no text messages, there's no,

katy (49:55):
no, there's

Mandy (49:57):
there's,

katy (49:57):
phones.
You talk into like a thing andyou call the operator and they
connect you in telegrams.
I mean, it just was.
Really incredible to me that shewas able to get that many
people.
That's why I am especiallyinterested in why that issue was
so motivating to

Mandy (50:12):
Mm-hmm.

katy (50:13):
of all the issues that they could be fighting about.
Especially when there was such asupport for FDR overall, like

Mandy (50:20):
Yeah,

katy (50:20):
him on that decision.
But she ends up then.
The the

Mandy (50:25):
the other women,

katy (50:25):
were trying to make the Democratic party work for them
or still aligning themselves,but saying I'm a

Mandy (50:30):
I'm kind,

katy (50:31):
I'm not that kind of Democrat.
And she fullblown just leavesand is like, I am actually
Republican.
And guess what?

Mandy (50:36):
I think

katy (50:37):
all

Mandy (50:37):
of

katy (50:38):
are secret Republicans too, and you just don't know it.
And the fact that we have to usean open ballot makes

Mandy (50:43):
it.

katy (50:44):
really hard for me

Mandy (50:46):
To get.

katy (50:47):
to.
Vote Republican, even though Ithink you actually would.
So she was interested in tryingto get rid of the the ballot
situation.
Am I right about that?
I don't

Mandy (50:57):
Yep.

katy (50:58):
confuse any of

Mandy (50:58):
No.
Yep.
That's what you're saying.
And then, but I have to pointout one of my favorite sentences
in this part of the chapter, youknow what it's gonna be

katy (51:07):
No.
Tell

Mandy (51:08):
oh, okay.

katy (51:08):
I do.

Mandy (51:09):
It's just the,

katy (51:09):
go.

Mandy (51:10):
it says, Tucker, neglected fashion, took up
smoking and drinking bourbon,and lost her ability to talk
about anything but politics.
I was

katy (51:21):
I did write in the margins there.
I see you Cordelia.
I see you.

Mandy (51:25):
I did same.
Same Cordelia.

katy (51:28):
I, know just for very different

Mandy (51:31):
Yeah.

katy (51:32):
know?
Yes.

Mandy (51:34):
I loved that.

katy (51:34):
I, I did like the pa, there's some photographs of her
too.
I do wanna try to look uppictures of these people.
And she did neglect fashion,although she also used fashion
politically.
She ends up making a dress outof like newspapers or ballots or
something and just standsoutside the capitol to, you
know, get, again, get mediaattention.
I think these women were allreally good at leveraging what

(51:56):
made them.
Distinct from other women thatthey were these outliers and
they, they managed to make thatwork for them and to get a lot
of media attention that endedup, ended up helping their
cause.
So she, she basically says, lookat the ways that FDR is
betraying the white south.
Even though of course we canlook at the.

(52:18):
New deal and say, well, notentirely.
You know,

Mandy (52:21):
Yep.

katy (52:21):
ways that it definitely reinforced, like the mortgage
lending, that's where redLending comes

Mandy (52:26):
Yep.

katy (52:26):
is from the New Deal.
Like

Mandy (52:28):
Mm-hmm.

katy (52:29):
the ways that

Mandy (52:30):
The new deal was carried out and mm-hmm.

katy (52:32):
Exactly.
So there, there's so much Ithink to unpack with the New
Deal.
So the fact that she's like,Nope, not good enough for me.
She didn't also like that theDemocratic National Committee
was changing some of their rulesabout how delegate, like, how
the delegates worked or likethey, they seeded black
delegates and she was not happywith that at the national

(52:54):
Convention.
She also wasn't happy with theway that they changed rules
about needing just a simplemajority to.
Have the candidate run forpresident to have that nominee.
And she thought, well, once youdo that, the southern states
really don't have any power.
Then it's

Mandy (53:10):
The power.
Mm-hmm.

katy (53:12):
right?
So she's like, you sat blackpeople and you took away our
disproportionate power.
Like, I'm out.
I don't want anything to do withyou.
And really

Mandy (53:20):
And

katy (53:20):
to

Mandy (53:21):
starts.

katy (53:22):
work to push, to reframe how people think about
Republicans in the south.
That was

Mandy (53:29):
Yeah,

katy (53:30):
to me.

Mandy (53:31):
she was really the beginning of it.
And it does make the point thatlike while the Republican Party
wouldn't really come to power inthe South until the late
fifties, like she was really oneof the early drivers of that,
which is, and she drew on thisorganizing of white women
voters.
Of white women's involvement incivic and business organization,

(53:54):
all of these women's groups toreally galvanize that move and
break into the social part ofpolitics in the South, which
then eventually trickled downinto the leadership of politics,
the South, which is sofascinating.

katy (54:12):
It is also, and this the, I think, yes, it's so
fascinating because she wasn'tinterested in working class
white people.
So the, the, her vision of theRepublican party was the
Republican

Mandy (54:21):
party.

katy (54:22):
grew up with,

Mandy (54:23):
Mm-hmm.

katy (54:23):
oh, it's the Republican party of here.
We said the business class it,they wore neck ties, not
overalls.
Did not seek black supporters,advocated white supremacist
policies in the names of state'srights, moving to serve the lily
white impetus in the NationalParty, and really trying to
disconnect the reputation ofRepublicans as ruled by black
majorities being

Mandy (54:44):
Influenced by

katy (54:45):
northerners who supported racial equality
disenfranchisement of, of whitewealthy people.
So her, her vision for theRepublican party was absolutely
like a white elite.
Which that I think for peoplefor many years, that is what
they thought of and I

Mandy (55:02):
I think that is.

katy (55:02):
what it

Mandy (55:03):
Mm-hmm.

katy (55:04):
yet there are these other seeds that

Mandy (55:05):
Yes.

katy (55:06):
other women show, which

Mandy (55:07):
Mm-hmm.

katy (55:08):
just that.

Mandy (55:09):
Mm-hmm.

katy (55:09):
that when we look at the way that it's shifted even in
our lifetimes, and it's hardsometimes to make sense of it.
When you rooted in this history,you're like, oh no, it actually

Mandy (55:17):
Makes sense,

katy (55:18):
of

Mandy (55:18):
sense.
Mm-hmm.

katy (55:18):
And

Mandy (55:19):
When there,

katy (55:20):
and it, and

Mandy (55:21):
it reveals what is foundational.

katy (55:23):
values and commitments that.
That are the last to change, andit's the common ground that all
these people have is whitesupremacy.
it.
So.

Mandy (55:31):
Yep.

katy (55:32):
It's like a, this, I, I don't know.
I wrote it at one point, like,is just the racist.
Whichever party can be the mostracist tends to do well.

Mandy (55:41):
Yeah.

katy (55:41):
that's the, it doesn't really matter which one it is.

Mandy (55:44):
What's really interesting is that Tucker uses issues that
don't seem like they are whitesupremacist issues, like the
secret ballot to really promotea white supremacist agenda, and
she does it in a way that usesher femininity and her role as a

(56:07):
mother and grandmother to hidekind of in a way what.
Her underlying agenda is.
There was this story about whenshe went and stole the
microphone basically during astate legislator meeting, and it
was actually during, when theywere saying the prayer, she went

(56:29):
and grabbed the microphone fromsomebody and then gave this
speech about changing thesesecret ballots.
Um.
Which didn't go well for her asfar as like a public image went.
And then she seemed to try torehab herself by selling her
grandmother role.

(56:49):
Do you remember that picture?
It's on page 81 for whoever hasthe book.

katy (56:54):
Now of this cute little, maybe 3-year-old boy in this
little striped shirt looking atthe camera and it did say that
the newspaper published thesepictures, but I thought there's
only one

Mandy (57:03):
Thought, well,

katy (57:04):
get this

Mandy (57:04):
for them to get this picture

katy (57:06):
photo of her with her grandkids.
It had to come from her, andit's

Mandy (57:10):
and it,

katy (57:10):
image

Mandy (57:11):
like

katy (57:11):
she's.
respectable grandmother

Mandy (57:14):
grandmother

katy (57:15):
did, was confused and didn't know she was interrupting
things and just believed sostrongly in this issue and it, I
thought, oh

Mandy (57:21):
thought, oh.

katy (57:22):
it's such a good example of respectability politics or
like a way to leverage thatsomehow.
Oh, I'm not dangerous, I'm justa sweet grandma who doesn't know
any

Mandy (57:32):
Doesn't know any better like

katy (57:34):
cents

Mandy (57:35):
2 cents.

katy (57:36):
honestly

Mandy (57:36):
And it honestly works.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, and then she like turnedit around and sold it even more
than she went back to theCapitol and was wearing this
dress that's like made out of,what was it made out of?
Like newspaper or paper that,

katy (57:54):
Newspapers that were

Mandy (57:55):
yeah.
Newspapers that were supportingher idea to have a secret
ballot.
Yeah.
So this time she didn't like goin and steal the microphone.
She didn't actually even go inthe building.
She just stood on the steps ofthe building and newspapers,
took pictures of her posing forphotographers in her secret
ballot outfit that she made.

(58:16):
And the headline was clothed anda political issue like again,
just another.
I don't know the imagery.
I, she must have made thatdress.
So it's also like, here I am,I'm the homemaker.
I made some clothes to, youknow, support my political
issue.
And I'm getting pictures of it.
What did they call her?
Like the Justice Queen ofVirtue.

katy (58:39):
her, the hat that she's wearing, this jaunty hat with
her secret ballot dressliterally says publicity on

Mandy (58:45):
Mm-hmm.

katy (58:46):
It's so obvious, I am trying to get publicity for
this, but it works.
It's similar to what we weretalking about with the other
women leveraging their positionsas outliers

Mandy (58:57):
Outliers

katy (58:58):
unusual

Mandy (58:59):
in

katy (59:00):
their stance or

Mandy (59:01):
their

katy (59:02):
like, I am the lone Republican in the sea of
Democrats and here, let meexplain why or I, able to get
publicity.
And of course it's.

Mandy (59:10):
and.

katy (59:10):
Hard to remember a

Mandy (59:12):
Remember

katy (59:13):
think

Mandy (59:13):
a time, I think we were born in an era where people
still

katy (59:16):
from the same source.
So just

Mandy (59:18):
source.
So just the power

katy (59:19):
get in the

Mandy (59:20):
being able to get, and

katy (59:21):
that

Mandy (59:22):
that,

katy (59:22):
the

Mandy (59:23):
is,

katy (59:23):
people are

Mandy (59:24):
people are,

katy (59:25):
This is one of those other

Mandy (59:26):
this is one of those other things like

katy (59:28):
a secret

Mandy (59:29):
this, A secret ballot, less democratic,

katy (59:31):
this

Mandy (59:31):
and I've thinking about this a lot,

katy (59:33):
having

Mandy (59:34):
having one

katy (59:36):
Three

Mandy (59:37):
like

katy (59:37):
or

Mandy (59:38):
networks.

katy (59:39):
or two major newspapers.
Is that better or worse fordemocracy than this like massive
more grassroots media landscapewhere there, there are pros and
cons to both sides,

Mandy (59:52):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.

katy (59:53):
not,

Mandy (59:53):
Yeah.

katy (59:54):
there's anything.
Inherently democratic or

Mandy (59:57):
Democratic or intimate democratic,

katy (59:59):
models.

Mandy (59:59):
of those models, it's like

katy (01:00:01):
to figure

Mandy (01:00:01):
how, who is able to figure out how

katy (01:00:02):
to promote what

Mandy (01:00:03):
to use it.

katy (01:00:04):
promote?

Mandy (01:00:05):
Right?
Yeah.
That does make me think aboutlike the news back in early days
of television when there were.
Four channels you could turn toand you had to watch it when it
was on.
There was none of thisstreaming.
We talked to my kids about thatthis summer actually, of
something we were doing.
It was like you used to have tolike turn it, there was only

(01:00:26):
these four options and you'dhave to sit down when your show
was on and like you couldn'twatch it later and there was no
like history of the show thatyou could go back to.
But yeah, I mean in that pointin time everyone watched the
news as well.
Because there weren't all ofthese other options to do so
it's like, yes, people wereinformed, but then there were
very limited places to get thatinformation from.

(01:00:49):
And as we know from readingthis, it's very easy to shape
the narrative You want people tobelieve when you have a captive
audience, whether it's textbooksor news channels.
And so maybe that was a timewhen people had more respect for
the news or.
Even when newscasters could bebetter journalists, even I

(01:01:12):
don't, I don't know.

katy (01:01:14):
like if we think about the civil rights movement, like
having these images of childrenbeing attacked by police dogs in
Birmingham and having that onthe nightly news and so many
people seeing that and beingreally horrified

Mandy (01:01:26):
mm-hmm.

katy (01:01:27):
was a

Mandy (01:01:27):
that was a strategy of

katy (01:01:29):
was to just try to get images or.
Tells funeral, just to

Mandy (01:01:34):
Yes.

katy (01:01:34):
this is what's happening.
Do you cannot look away?
I think the part of what to

Mandy (01:01:40):
Part of

katy (01:01:41):
democratic

Mandy (01:01:42):
Democratic

katy (01:01:43):
More inclusive is

Mandy (01:01:45):
is

katy (01:01:46):
able

Mandy (01:01:46):
being able to,

katy (01:01:47):
a journalist or

Mandy (01:01:48):
you are

katy (01:01:49):
this, singular

Mandy (01:01:50):
singular,

katy (01:01:51):
there, you have enormous

Mandy (01:01:52):
you have enormous,

katy (01:01:53):
in terms of news you think is important or how you're
framing things.
And there's no way to

Mandy (01:01:59):
and there's no way that.

katy (01:02:00):
thing as unbiased ways to do you have to make decisions
about that.
There's no way to covereverything.
So when you look at

Mandy (01:02:06):
So,

katy (01:02:07):
and it was all these like old white men, like I, I

Mandy (01:02:09):
mm-hmm.

katy (01:02:10):
the

Mandy (01:02:10):
Understand

katy (01:02:11):
expanding.
Who gets to decide and whatcriteria they are using to
decide that.
I absolutely understand thebenefit of that the.
Kind of other side of it

Mandy (01:02:22):
other side of it is then

katy (01:02:23):
being funneled

Mandy (01:02:24):
aren't.

katy (01:02:24):
thing.
I guess the ideally people wouldbe funneled into something that
is more inclusive and thoughtfuland inherently diverse, but that
didn't seem to be an option.
Like it, it's

Mandy (01:02:35):
Yeah,

katy (01:02:35):
alternatives spring up.
There was, can't remember hername.
I saw her being interviewed.
She was a journalist

Mandy (01:02:41):
journalist

katy (01:02:42):
like Breitbart into OAN,

Mandy (01:02:44):
o

katy (01:02:45):
the

Mandy (01:02:45):
went into

katy (01:02:46):
right

Mandy (01:02:46):
far right

katy (01:02:47):
quote journalism

Mandy (01:02:48):
journal

katy (01:02:49):
Leaving because she

Mandy (01:02:51):
because she had some.

katy (01:02:53):
that this is actually not journalism.
This is full indoctrination thatwe're involved in, and I'm not
okay with that.
And then really dis disentangledherself from this movement.
But she said, she wrote a

Mandy (01:03:02):
She said she wrote a book.

katy (01:03:04):
media ecosystem on the far right and how it's like a Medusa
that you cut off like, oh,Tucker Carlson gets fired.
He just moves even further.
And now he has his fo, it's likethat.
See that side of things is justendlessly.
infinite.
That abyss is infinite.
And so you just can keep if youget quote canceled by that

Mandy (01:03:23):
Canceled by

katy (01:03:24):
then you just

Mandy (01:03:25):
network,

katy (01:03:25):
and people go and follow you and you're just further down
the

Mandy (01:03:27):
right?

katy (01:03:28):
hole.
So I, that, that side of themedia landscape is horrifying
and clearly not good fordemocracy or humanity.
But I, yeah I do

Mandy (01:03:37):
I, I do think that

katy (01:03:39):
Who was using whatever

Mandy (01:03:41):
average

katy (01:03:42):
better.
And there was

Mandy (01:03:43):
better and there was.

katy (01:03:45):
where Mick Gray says that there were

Mandy (01:03:49):
There were other organizations

katy (01:03:51):
places that these

Mandy (01:03:52):
place

katy (01:03:53):
Like South

Mandy (01:03:53):
working.

katy (01:03:54):
The deep south that she

Mandy (01:03:56):
Mm-hmm.

katy (01:03:57):
Tenant Farmers Union, the Highlander Folk School, the
YWCA, the Southern Conferencefor

Mandy (01:04:01):
Southern

katy (01:04:02):
But they

Mandy (01:04:03):
but they told,

katy (01:04:05):
easy to combat.
Just,

Mandy (01:04:07):
yeah.

katy (01:04:07):
about this before, that it's much more difficult to

Mandy (01:04:11):
Dis

katy (01:04:12):
white supremacy than it is to maintain it.
It's just more, re much moreresource intensive.
It's an uphill battle.

Mandy (01:04:19):
Yep.

katy (01:04:19):
and yet these

Mandy (01:04:20):
And yet

katy (01:04:21):
also very savvy.

Mandy (01:04:23):
very savvy.
And I, I thought that this was akind of an important

katy (01:04:27):
to just

Mandy (01:04:27):
factor to just set up

katy (01:04:29):
women

Mandy (01:04:29):
that even when I

katy (01:04:30):
what they

Mandy (01:04:30):
get exactly what they wanted,

katy (01:04:32):
when they

Mandy (01:04:32):
exactly when they wanted it, but the work.

katy (01:04:34):
was really important, foundational work for what was
going to come

Mandy (01:04:38):
Mm-hmm.

katy (01:04:39):
She talks here about, the, we've talked about this already,
the colorblind

Mandy (01:04:43):
All

katy (01:04:43):
they

Mandy (01:04:44):
way that they were,

katy (01:04:45):
were

Mandy (01:04:46):
the policy that were

katy (01:04:47):
intended to support

Mandy (01:04:48):
intended for white

katy (01:04:49):
in opposing anti-lynching legislation,

Mandy (01:04:52):
legislations,

katy (01:04:53):
sure that the

Mandy (01:04:53):
making sure that the New Deal money, white cons,

katy (01:04:56):
they

Mandy (01:04:57):
they were rejecting federal inroads into any social
welfare programs that would.

katy (01:05:02):
people of

Mandy (01:05:03):
Support any people of color

katy (01:05:05):
and that

Mandy (01:05:06):
and that this all.

katy (01:05:08):
guaranteed that when the time

Mandy (01:05:10):
When

katy (01:05:10):
segregation, white women would

Mandy (01:05:13):
white women would

katy (01:05:13):
experience to

Mandy (01:05:14):
experience

katy (01:05:15):
a crusade.

Mandy (01:05:16):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
And she says, another thing Ihighlighted was time after time,
their political organizing drewfrom the pool of white women
voters, white women's civic andbusiness organization, and white
women's partisan auxiliaries.
They just.
Mobilized this whole group ofwomen who were able to push this

(01:05:39):
agenda so well that it's stillhere and thriving and doing the
same thing a hundred years latersomehow.
Yeah, and it, I don't know howwe, at this point, I'm like,
okay, so how do we.
Reverse this, like how do we domore, oh, I don't know, like to

(01:06:04):
become more dominant.
Like how do we become not soeasily fought against like these
other groups of women have beenin the past that you mentioned,
like, I don't know.

katy (01:06:17):
This is the

Mandy (01:06:18):
Well, this.

katy (01:06:19):
keep coming back to and whenever we have guests.
I think you are always reallygood at asking this question
too, and I'm just thinking backto different advice we've been
given by people and I think

Mandy (01:06:28):
I think

katy (01:06:29):
about

Mandy (01:06:29):
it's about,

katy (01:06:30):
You know that I think when you look

Mandy (01:06:32):
I think when you look at where

katy (01:06:34):
the reason that they're fighting in

Mandy (01:06:36):
they're fighting in

katy (01:06:37):
there's power there.
So I think education doesmatter.

Mandy (01:06:41):
matter.
Mm-hmm.
I think

katy (01:06:43):
just,

Mandy (01:06:43):
it's not just, it's not enough

katy (01:06:45):
that there needs to be that

Mandy (01:06:48):
experiences that people.

katy (01:06:50):
policy changes.
But it just look at the

Mandy (01:06:52):
I mean it just look at the fact that was,

katy (01:06:55):
she was trying to

Mandy (01:06:56):
she was trying to change

katy (01:06:57):
that the

Mandy (01:06:57):
the way that the,

katy (01:06:58):
wasn't even a

Mandy (01:06:59):
it wasn't even a specific issue.
She wanted the secret ballotbecause she knew

katy (01:07:04):
ballot

Mandy (01:07:04):
that the secret ballot would allow

katy (01:07:06):
to

Mandy (01:07:07):
her part to,

katy (01:07:08):
strength, which would

Mandy (01:07:09):
right.
Which would allow all of thesepolicies

katy (01:07:11):
very much

Mandy (01:07:12):
a

katy (01:07:12):
a domino

Mandy (01:07:13):
much like a domino that she

katy (01:07:14):
And when I think

Mandy (01:07:14):
brought up.
And when I think about

katy (01:07:16):
opportunities in

Mandy (01:07:17):
missed opportunities.

katy (01:07:18):
to.
Make some of those structuralchanges, but that is

Mandy (01:07:21):
That that is also a really important thing.

katy (01:07:24):
on too.
I don't know.
I

Mandy (01:07:25):
So I dunno, I don't wanna

katy (01:07:27):
I never wanna lose hope.
I always sound like, I, we talkabout toxic positivity and I
worry that I'm like, but there'shope.
Maybe there's not.
And then, but then what?
I don't know if you

Mandy (01:07:36):
Right.

katy (01:07:37):
okay, no, it's never gonna get better.
Okay, I still have a life tolive.
What does that even mean?
And I think it.
I can, and even if it isn'tgoing to, I would rather

Mandy (01:07:48):
I would rather,

katy (01:07:49):
things than, I don't even know what else

Mandy (01:07:51):
I don't even know what else do, right?
Yeah.

katy (01:07:53):
it almost, I don't wanna say this super cynically, but
it's it almost doesn't matter

Mandy (01:07:58):
Better

katy (01:07:58):
quote works, because I

Mandy (01:08:00):
because

katy (01:08:01):
I'm not gonna hang

Mandy (01:08:02):
I'm not gonna hang.
Right, right.
Yep.
I, I know that's the exactfeeling that I have too.
Like, I can't imagine,

katy (01:08:11):
God no.
Been

Mandy (01:08:13):
I was gonna,

katy (01:08:13):
go ahead.

Mandy (01:08:14):
no, I was just gonna say something terrible that I should
probably edit out instead ofputting in here.
And I was like, it's the samereaction that I have.
From a religious standpoint,when you know anyone's like,
well, what happens if you don'tbelieve this?
And then like, you don't go toheaven?
And I'm like, with all thosepeople you think are going to

(01:08:35):
heaven, no thanks,

katy (01:08:38):
Yeah.

Mandy (01:08:38):
interested.
If that's where I have to spendeternity.

katy (01:08:42):
It's a really just great way to put it.
Like you're not really sellingit.
Sorry.
Like super fun wonderful peopleare your, they you think they're
gonna be elsewhere?
I'd rather be with them.

Mandy (01:08:53):
Yeah, exactly.

katy (01:08:54):
I don't know.
I've been

Mandy (01:08:55):
Yeah.
I, I think, I dunno, I've beenwatching

katy (01:08:56):
of

Mandy (01:08:57):
some videos of people talking about

katy (01:08:59):
movement, specifically white women saying what it is
that of.
Woke them up and how they got

Mandy (01:09:06):
how.

katy (01:09:06):
place.
And the ones I've been watching,it was really like, that was
just my family, my neighborhood,my church.
That was just the stew I wassteeping in and I didn't even
know that there was somethingelse to know, that it

Mandy (01:09:17):
Mm-hmm.

katy (01:09:18):
Like a cult, like the way people

Mandy (01:09:20):
You know, the way people talk about

katy (01:09:22):
realize

Mandy (01:09:22):
how they

katy (01:09:22):
I'm in a cult.

Mandy (01:09:23):
Mm-hmm.

katy (01:09:24):
but it's usually some that, at least for the women
I've been watching, like aninciting incidence of hypocrisy
that's just too obvious and has.
Is like directly impacting themor their children in a way
that's like clearly harmful orviolent.
And then the

Mandy (01:09:42):
Yeah.

katy (01:09:43):
of it is just too much to take and they exit and then

Mandy (01:09:45):
Yeah.
They can't continue with thecognitive dissonance of it.

katy (01:09:49):
Dorothy

Mandy (01:09:49):
Yeah.

katy (01:09:50):
of the house when it lands on the Wicked Witch and it's all
black and white.
And then she opens it up andit's like technicolor.
And they're like, oh fuck.
Like I didn't realize this was,no.

Mandy (01:09:59):
Oh.

katy (01:10:00):
I was, I need to rethink everything

Mandy (01:10:02):
mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.

katy (01:10:03):
that's honestly be really hard to try to find a place to

Mandy (01:10:09):
Find a place.

katy (01:10:10):
to fit in when you have been part of something that you
realize was not good and

Mandy (01:10:15):
Oh yeah,

katy (01:10:16):
when you realize.
You are the bad guy.
Oh I should send you this clip.
I love the Golden Girls and

Mandy (01:10:24):
of course.

katy (01:10:25):
we've talked about our algorithms know us very well,
and so it pulled up a clip fromlike the later, was like a
spinoff of the Golden Girls thatI'd never watched, that they run
a hotel.
And it

Mandy (01:10:35):
Yeah.

katy (01:10:36):
Cheadle was the hotel manager.

Mandy (01:10:38):
Oh

katy (01:10:38):
there's this episode where Blanche is dressed in Antebellum
dress and then has theConfederate flag hanging up at
the hotel.
And Don Cheadle is absolutelynot.
You need to take this down.
And it's this really fascinatingepisode and she has moment at
the end where

Mandy (01:10:57):
At the end

katy (01:10:58):
Is talking about

Mandy (01:10:59):
talking about

katy (01:11:00):
to

Mandy (01:11:00):
that like.

katy (01:11:01):
and he's sharing what it means to him.
And she's it's

Mandy (01:11:04):
She's like, it's all kind of

katy (01:11:05):
she's but what does it

Mandy (01:11:06):
like, what?

katy (01:11:07):
Like, how am I okay

Mandy (01:11:08):
Like how am I, okay?

katy (01:11:09):
saying,

Mandy (01:11:10):
Like I hear what you're saying, but then what does that
mean?
How supposed to about my family

katy (01:11:14):
friends,

Mandy (01:11:15):
my

katy (01:11:15):
am I supposed to think about myself?

Mandy (01:11:17):
myself?

katy (01:11:18):
it's just

Mandy (01:11:18):
Mm-hmm.

katy (01:11:18):
of

Mandy (01:11:19):
And it's

katy (01:11:19):
Wait, like a path that she's gonna pick

Mandy (01:11:22):
said she's gonna say

katy (01:11:23):
muffle that all again and be like

Mandy (01:11:24):
again.

katy (01:11:25):
I can't hear you.

Mandy (01:11:26):
Mm-hmm.

katy (01:11:27):
she's going to face the music and just work through it.
And she faces the music andworks through it and, tries to
repair her relationship withthis guy.
It's one of those moments whereI was like, leave it to the, a
TV show in like the earlynineties to be further ahead
than we are now.
Good lord,

Mandy (01:11:44):
Yes.

katy (01:11:45):
But I think that, yeah that, to your question what are
we supposed to do?
I just

Mandy (01:11:50):
I think

katy (01:11:50):
it is about

Mandy (01:11:52):
it's about having.

katy (01:11:54):
It is about.
Not isolating.

Mandy (01:11:57):
isolating.
It is about not being afraid to

katy (01:12:00):
we

Mandy (01:12:00):
doing whatever we can to

katy (01:12:02):
histories alive to

Mandy (01:12:03):
lives.

katy (01:12:04):
education

Mandy (01:12:05):
I

katy (01:12:05):
like to

Mandy (01:12:06):
alive like to

katy (01:12:06):
thinking, creative thinking, like all of that is
just

Mandy (01:12:09):
all that so important,

katy (01:12:11):
we

Mandy (01:12:11):
whatever,

katy (01:12:11):
And then to not

Mandy (01:12:13):
and then to not

katy (01:12:14):
those

Mandy (01:12:14):
forget

katy (01:12:15):
changes really matter and I'm

Mandy (01:12:16):
matter and I'm not as

katy (01:12:18):
I'm

Mandy (01:12:18):
that so I, I be terrible.

katy (01:12:20):
I'm a terrible chess player.
I am a whole, like a veryunstrategic political thinker.
I'm too earnest.
But there are

Mandy (01:12:27):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.

katy (01:12:28):
at that.
Like I hope they're in trustthat they are working really
hard on that.
So I don't know.

Mandy (01:12:33):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, as you said, we still havelives to live and we I mean, at
least you and I, and I'm sure alot of the people that listen to
this as well have like thesemothering roles and.
As we can see how much thosewere used on this side of

(01:12:54):
history to shape what's going onnow, like we can at least use
them.
On our side and in our dailylives as well.
And just keep moving forwardwith every, still gotta do all
the shit we've gotta do.
But just try to at least havethose conversations as, you

(01:13:14):
know, as they're appropriate, asthey come up, you know, in any
way that we can with our ownchildren, with our friends, with
our family and just not shy awayfrom them in a way.

katy (01:13:25):
And no, this, we talked about this for years.
We've, we keep saying this too,that this is the work of
generations and.
It is

Mandy (01:13:34):
It's

katy (01:13:34):
that

Mandy (01:13:35):
the.

katy (01:13:35):
to have quick fixes to things, or that impatience is
actually an element of whitesupremacist thinking.
Like things need to happen likesuper fast and just thinking I
might not be the one whobenefits from this personally,
that I'm gonna dedicate my lifeto making sure that I am laying
the foundations for generationsforward, that things are gonna
be better.

(01:13:55):
That's hard thing to.
Of course I'd rather not live inthis shitty moment.
Have I mentioned before this?
I saw this on social media theother day.
Someone tech tweeted, orwhatever word we're using for
that, posted on something said Iwish I was living in an age that
would just be like a footnote ora sentence in a history book and

(01:14:15):
not entire

Mandy (01:14:16):
Yeah.
Not an entire sh Yeah,

katy (01:14:18):
I was like,

Mandy (01:14:19):
not a whole section.

katy (01:14:21):
Same.

Mandy (01:14:22):
Well, it's that also along the same lines that Sam
said, you know, I always thoughtI wanted to live in a time in
history that was like this greatmomentous, whatever thing, and
then you realize likesignificant time and then, then
I realized I was, and

katy (01:14:39):
was like, and if

Mandy (01:14:40):
then you're like, oh wait, I don't like it.
This is terrible.

katy (01:14:45):
but okay, here's the last thing I will say to that point
that it is something that comesup a lot when you teach history
is that it's easy to look backand say, oh, if I had lived then
I would've done X, Y, or Z.
And it's,

Mandy (01:14:57):
Mm-hmm.

katy (01:14:57):
easy to say that in the comfort of the future, but we
are living in one of thosemoments and whatever you thought
you would've been like duringthese other

Mandy (01:15:06):
Mm-hmm.

katy (01:15:07):
you were doing now, and if it's like complacency and fear,
then that is who you would'vebeen in that moment and if

Mandy (01:15:13):
it's shutting your mouth because you're too afraid to
confront people around you or tochallenge your like history and
your family.
Oh, okay.
That's what you would've donethen too, you know?
Yeah.
Yep.
So

katy (01:15:27):
anyway, it just

Mandy (01:15:28):
anyway.

katy (01:15:28):
with that.
But we're moving on to chapterfour next

Mandy (01:15:32):
Okay.

katy (01:15:33):
looking forward to it.
Yeah,

Mandy (01:15:34):
Yeah.

katy (01:15:35):
for

Mandy (01:15:35):
I know I've like, I have really enjoyed all these
chapters and I love talkingabout them with you, so I'm
excited.
So, yay.

katy (01:15:42):
I love

Mandy (01:15:43):
All right.
Till next week.
Okay, bye everybody.

katy (01:16:03):
Hey.